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USA Today Mule Test Drive Shines a Positive Light on the Chevy Volt

May 1st, 2009 | Posted in: Public Opinion, Test drive

Newspapers may be slowly dying, but USA Today has the highest circulation in the country with a daily circulation of 2,113,725.

Jim Healey is their automotive journalist and often comes on a bit harsh towards GM. However, after getting his Chevy Volt mule drive he has penned a rather glowing report. Take that Dave!

Healey writes “based on the thin evidence available, folks who buy or lease the Chevrolet Volt electric car — scheduled to go on sale in November 2010 — should be surprised and pleased.”

He believes the car will have a “remarkably punchy performance,” and “a level of quiet refinement that appears to lead the industry.” I would have to agree.

He notes “the Volt motor has some serious guts” and that drivers will be able to “embarrass muscle-car drivers when the light turns green.” He also noticed as I did, there are none of the “whines” nor “howls” typical for most electric cars.

He thinks that the “super-green, super-geek people” will be the early adopters buying Volts as soon as they hit the market. Is he talking about us? More importantly he mentions what it would take for the car to go mainstream. To do so he writes, as GM believes, the car will have to appeal to people who “want a car a lot like the one they’re driving now while using less gas.”

Healey also didn’t test the generator mode but notes GM’s Tony Posawatz promises “it’ll avoid the shudders common on some hybrids.” He adds that GM is considering how to run the RPMs in that engine. Should they be programmed to match the accelerator or not?

He also hints the engine will automatically come on now and then to move the lubricants and stir the fuel a little. That seems like a good idea.

He also writes “GM says it’s unclear whether most Volt customers would prefer to buy the car or lease it and whether the battery pack should be leased or sold separately.”

But the bottom line is this story will have a positive impact on public perception.

Source (USA Today)

Posted by: Lyle

144 Responses to “USA Today Mule Test Drive Shines a Positive Light on the Chevy Volt”

GLV Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:18 am

Yea!! Good news!

Read that Letterman!

And BTW…I’m not Super-green or Super-geeky…lol

1st!

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:22 am

Public perception won’t be changed by one article or one late night TV showing.

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GLV Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:28 am

#2 jeffhre says: “Public perception won’t be changed by one article or one late night TV showing.”

I totally agree…however, as Volt supporters we have the unique ability to drive public opinion the old-fashioned way…by word of mouth…which, in my book, has always held more sway than anything I’ve seen in print or on TV…

So…like Dr. Dennis, let US just help get the Volt’s wheels on the road then…

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zivbnd Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:29 am

These articles are helping. I talk to a lot of people in the course of a work day, and frequently the subject of conversation turns to driving or gasoline prices. For two years now I have been mentioning that I want a Chevy Volt, and at first no one knew what I was talking about. Now, people are saying that they want it too, and they understand the 40 miles AER plus the unlimited mileage, eliminating limited range irritation.
If GM survives they will have a winner on their hands. But then they will have to get the price down to a more reasonable number…
Just read GLV’s comments, and couldn’t agree more.

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Lunoir Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:29 am

Just hope people are more prone to believe what’s written and documented than mere allegations/speculations.
NPNS!

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:31 am

GM needs all the ppositive publicity they can get and, in my opinion, they richly deserve all of it – Especially about the Volt. I really believe that the Volt is the future of automobiles and I can’t wait to get my hands on one. 18 MONTHS TO V-DAY (VOLT DAY)! GO GM! GO VOLT!

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dc Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:36 am

As I tacked on at the end of the other thread, its been popular around here in the last 6+ months to say this car is going to cost (40,000 – tax credit = 32500ish). What people seem to forget is that all limited release cars like this, especially in my area (DC Metro), *always* have a significant “limited release” markup tacked on from the dealerships.

I have seen this especially when the first releases of the Prius came out, dealers were getting as high as $10,000 on a markup. The DC Metro area is one of the wealthiest in the country – something like 5 of the top 10 wealthiest counties are in this area – and people were paying it without complaint. Now sure, 5+ years later dealers may not get this. But I think we are all being naive if we think that if the MSRP is 40,000 that the dealers arent going to mark up the hell out of this car.

So yeah, I can easily see how the price gets back to $40,000 – quite easily.

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ArkansasVolt Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am

Every bit of publicity is going to help the Volt. I will do all that I can to be one of the first in line.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am

I look forward to the real prototypes hitting the roads this summer. They need the final configurations to dial in the performance.

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Ted Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am

USA Today is an unlikely place to find anything positive about American business. As previously stated in past blogs Letterman is interested in centralization of power in the government. (Look at his strong support for the socialist agenda of the Obama Administration.) Weakening American business is Letterman’s goal. Then, when businesses are at the brink of bankruptcy, the government can step in as if it is logical to nationalize the businesses. Wake up Americans. Buying American made products strengthens the US economy and protects us from further erosions of our GDP. GM now makes some of the most reliable fuel efficient automobiles in the world. Show Letterman how wrong he is through tuning in to other late night shows.

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Guy Incognito Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:39 am

For once, some decent PR about the Volt for a change.

After having read some of the YouTube members comments on Lyle’s video “Response to David Letterman’s Bashing of the Chevy Volt” I now realize that as Volt enthusiasts, & as gm-volt.com being the defacto #1 source for all things Volt, we must redouble our efforts to dispel these horrible myths & rumors that are swirling around about the Volt.

-We have to start an aggressive program to make it known to people that the Volt really is a game changer. That it really will further our goal of reducing/eliminating not just our dependence on foreign oil, but on oil altogether, be it foreign or domestic.

-We need to get people to understand that if you drive 40 miles a day or less (80% of us do), you’ll never have to buy gas, and if you do drive more than 40 miles a day, your mileage will be almost a 100 miles per gallon.

-Get them to understand that the Volt is just like any other car, that its as safe as any other car, that its as reliable as any other car.

Its an uphill battle guys, we gotta’ get moving on this

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nuclearboy Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:42 am

Irregardless of all of this commotion and positive and negative stories, the initial Volts will all sell out and then real world experiences will take over.

I personally believe the real world experiences will be positive and the concerns of critics will die down.

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dc Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:43 am

“We need to get people to understand that if you drive 40 miles a day or less (80% of us do), you’ll never have to buy gas, and if you do drive more than 40 miles a day, your mileage will be almost a 100 miles per gallon.”
======================

Before we can say this, I want to see REAL WORLD testing on the Volt prototypes. I dont want to know that the range is 40 miles when its a perfect 65 degrees out with no wind and without the AC or heater running. I want to know what the real range is going to be when I have to run the AC at full blast in the summer down here, plus radio, plus whatever else. All I have seen so far is this mystery range that only seems applicable in absolutely ideal conditions.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:48 am

A good review from a well-known/decently respected journbalist is a good thing.

However, there is one sentence in his article that Lyle ‘forgot’ to add here:

“GM says it’s unclear whether most Volt customers would prefer to buy the car or lease it and whether the battery pack should be leased or sold separately.”

…fricken’ hell

I don’t know how the public’s wants could be anymore clear about this–we don’t want to lease anything. At the very least, we want the option to buy the WHOLE car outright.

Maybe they are using that same secret ‘focus group’ that thought the production car was the most awesome car they had ever seen…results in a vacuum

We know they read this blog. So for the record, I’m not leasing a car or a battery off you, not now…not ever. I own my house, I own my cars, heck I don’t even sign up for ‘plans’ on my cell phone, or ‘bundle’ my cable.

/If I can’t own it…I don’t want it.

They say it is unclear what the public wants, I wonder how a poll here with the following options would turn out:

A) I want to buy the whole car
B) I want the option to buy or lease either the car and/or battery
C) I just want to be able to lease

/so ridiculous…they ‘don’t know’, lol

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David K (CT) Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:53 am

NONS = No Own No Sale?

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old man Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:59 am

Dang it, now I’ve got to go buy a copy of USA Today!!

Will be off line for a while.

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ArkansasVolt Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:03 am

#14 Statik

I agree.

‘A’ only is my answer. I will never lease anything unless absolutely necessary!

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Gary Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:05 am

11 Guy Incognito: “Its an uphill battle guys, we gotta’ get moving on this”

It shouldn’t be a problem with the Volt which can climb a 16.5% grade without a hitch.

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:08 am

Good article, Lyle. And needed after the hit Letterman tried to deliver to GM. Yes, it was an intentional “hit” designed to hurt GM in the eyes of his viewers. Letterman is ignorant and stupid. I don’t mind calling him that and I will not take it back under any circumstances.

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Dave B Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:08 am

So how do we avoid bankruptcy????

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DonC Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:12 am

This is a very positive review. I am however surprised that our resident skeptics didn’t pick up on the first or second sentence which talked about how the conclusions are based on “thin evidence.” IOW his conclusions are tentative and are more projections than anything. However, taken as a whole, the cumulative weight of the reviews suggest that the EV portion of the Volt drive will be terrific.

/Sarcasm On/ It is surprising though that, given that nothing has been happening with development since November of 2008, that the engineers wanted the car back immediately. Maybe they needed to wash it? LOL /Sarcasm Off/

Lest we get over-excited, keep in mind that the problems with the EV1 didn’t show up until much later and were not limited to the battery. As I remember the tires turned out to be a big problem, and that type of thing is not going to show up driving around a test track a few times. There is a very long way to go, and the integration of the ICE would seem to be a lesser issue.

The lease versus buy decision is interesting. I’d pay a premium of a couple of thousand to lease, if there was a buy out option at the end of the lease. This is because the Volt is tech, and for the first couple of generations geeky early adopters always want the goodies that show up in the new generation.

The battery is a whole different story. Why would you want to buy the car and lease the battery? GM won’t have trouble selling the first 10K so my guess is that this option is on the table because battery life is still a concern. Maybe CA will lighten up on the 10 year 100K battery warranty and this issue will disappear?

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Jackson Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:15 am

dc (#7):

Dealer upcharge has received a lot of speculation and commentary on this site, though you’re right; I haven’t seen any for the past 6 months or so. I daresay the majority of people on this blog have abandoned all hope of getting a Gen I Volt primarily for this reason (ironically).

There has also been a lot of speculation on how, or if GM will use Lyle’s Volt sign-up list. It doesn’t seem likely that this will be used in a meaningful sense, but I’d like to suggest that at least the first [x] thousand get an opportunity to purchase a Volt at MSRP, with the dealers’ tentacles kept the h*|| off. That doesn’t seem like a lot to ask.

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Lunoir Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:23 am

Just finished reading the article and it’s better than anything Letterman could ever say.
NPNS

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LauraM Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:27 am

#21 DonC

If GM wants the Volt to be a niche vehicle like the EV1, or Tesla, they should try to get California to relax the 10 year/100k warranty. However, if they want it to be a mainstream vehicle, they need to meet that standard. A lot of people won’t want to buy a car without that warranty. Especially a GM car.

I can see why they would want to lease the first 10,000. It would serve as a captured test fleet, and it would make it easier for them to fix any problems that come up. However, after the EV1 fiasco, I’m not sure the public will go for that. Personally, I’m fine either way.

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:33 am

14 Statik

I have friends who ONLY lease cars. They want something new every 2 years. With low-mileage Volt drivers, i could see a big market for leasing.

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john1701a Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:34 am

I have seen this especially when the first releases of the Prius came out, dealers were getting as high as $10,000 on a markup.
__________________

That’s an interesting omission.

Markups were only for used demo models. No wait and not new meant price could be based on whatever the demand presented.

The only way to purchase a new Prius was through the internet-order process, of which corporate forced dealers to sell only at MSRP.

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:38 am

In the picture above, like many other pictures, the Volt has Red & Blue LED’s on the front bumper. This is illegal in many states. Why did they do this? Looks cool, but its misleading. (Unless they are trying to pawn that red off as Amber, but in other photos, it looks very red)

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:38 am

@statik 14

I pick ‘A’.

Are you kidding me? Even after the EV1 lease fiasco they are even considering a Lease? WTF?!?!?!?!
This will just open old wounds and the media will have a field day on this. WTF R they thinking? Or R they?!?!?

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:44 am

#24 LauraM Says:

If GM wants the Volt to be a niche vehicle like the EV1, or Tesla, they should try to get California to relax the 10 year/100k warranty. However, if they want it to be a mainstream vehicle, they need to meet that standard. A lot of people won’t want to buy a car without that warranty. Especially a GM car.

I can see why they would want to lease the first 10,000. It would serve as a captured test fleet, and it would make it easier for them to fix any problems that come up. However, after the EV1 fiasco, I’m not sure the public will go for that. Personally, I’m fine either way.

=============

I’m actually the other way on the 10year/100,000 warranty. I think a standard 5 year/60 is more than fine.

The general public (seemingly) barely understand the Volt at all, I can’t believe they are going to be so knowledgeable they understand battery life cycles and the concept of having the potential for diminishing returns over time.

A ton of cost is build into these cars to cover that warranty. In the Volt’s case a entire extra pack is priced into that $35-$40K. With estimates on the pack between 5-10k, the removal of this stingent CARB rule brings the MSRP (pre-rebate) down into the high 20s, very low 30s.

A big stumbling block to EVs hitting the market is no manufacturer wants to cover a car for 10 years….that is a crazy long time to have a commitment attached to ANY product you are only making maybe a couple thousand bucks on (maybe a 5% profit margin), if your lucky.

If a Volt of $37,500 with a 10 year/100 mile warranty and a Volt of $29,500 with a 5 year/60 mile warranty comes out at the same time (and assuming unlimited capacity for production), I think the $29,500 Volt outsells the extra warranty one at least 5 to 1…probably 10 to 1.

Price is the driver here to the public, length of warranty is probably a lot farther down the list…in my opinion. I can only speak for myself, I don’t want to pay for a 100% battery replacement, up front, that I may or may not use a decade from now…when that same pack is probably half the cost.

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Jim I Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:50 am

OK, I admit it. You can color me “super geeky”!!!!!!!!!

And I prefer not to lease anything…..

NPNS!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am

@statik 29

“in my opinion. I can only speak for myself, I don’t want to pay for a 100% battery replacement, up front, that I may or may not use a decade from now…when that same pack is probably half the cost.”

Ditto here. I live in CA and although I own my cars beyond 10 years, the 10/100 warranty seems a little ridiculous. Besides, after 5 years the sh|t that breaks is never in the warrany coverage anyway. Also, after 10 years as statik points out, new batts will be here and you’re stuck with the batt that meets ONLY the OEM specs when you bought it. I’m a tinkerer and I am pretty sure that if I can get my hands into the batt pack I can replicate……uh…….reverse engineer…….uh………..nevermind.

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Mark M Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:55 am

Some constuctive critisism from a marketing guy: Old world media like newspaper reviews and letting “journalists” write about your car is not getting it done GM. Its 2009. Do you have anyone under 40 in your marketing department? Go steal the team that is running the interent marketing for the Insight. Your 1990 playbook isn’t working anymore. Build-viral-buzz.

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RB Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:55 am

#21 DonC asks The battery is a whole different story. Why would you want to buy the car and lease the battery?
———————————

I’ve given this question some thought recently because I’ve heard people express reservations about buying or selling a Toyota Camry or Honda hybrid, and now I’m not sure about the answer. The reservation people have is about the unknown remaining lifetime but large costs of the car’s battery. The Volt involves all the same issues but with bigger dollar amounts involved. It might be that when resale time comes, it will be much easier if the battery plan involves a lease. That way a new owner can pick up where the old owner left off, without imagining something about the state of the battery at time of resale.

I know statik wants to own everything, but even statik does not own all the future gasoline for his present car, or even his own gas station, most likely.

That is, perhaps GM’s statement that it is not yet clear what most customers want is right on. I am one of those who is unsure.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 10:59 am

@Mark M 32

“Do you have anyone under 40 in your marketing department? Go steal the team that is running the interent marketing for the Insight”

AHAHAHAHA!!!!
Dude I think that’s the general consensus here.

DITCH HOWIE LONG GM!!!!

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:07 am

#25 k-dawg says:

Statik, I have friends who ONLY lease cars. They want something new every 2 years. With low-mileage Volt drivers, i could see a big market for leasing.
===========================
I agree 100%. I have no problem at all with having the option to lease.

A good number of people choose this option everyday. Some people do it to take advantage of tax laws and write-offs through business and corporations…some people just like the ease of flipping in and out of a ‘new’ car every couple years…some people just have no money and want to get the lowest monthly payment possible regardless of fiscal sense, etc. etc.

The problem…and the huge blackeye is not have the option to buy the car outright. That is why the statement is ridiculous, and worrisome:

“GM says it’s unclear whether most Volt customers would prefer to buy the car or lease it and whether the battery pack should be leased or sold separately.”

You can lease or buy every car in GM’s lineup, so what the heck is with the “unclear if customers want to buy or lease” already? You have that option with every dang car GM sells. Buying a car is a simple process, it isn’t like adding AWD to the Volt, there is no added complication.

Sidenote:
GM could barely even lease a car at all a few months ago, lol. That is until the gov’t stepped in, lol. So making statments like this, infering that leasing may be the only option because it is what the customer prefers, is a long way away from GM’s stance on leasing last november…as in, you couldn’t get one, and if you did it was a terrible deal.

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Anthony BC Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:09 am

The following two statements are about the same car! But they’re completely the OPPOSITE! This is what’s going to confuse people when deciding on buying a VOLT. Let’s get it right and NOT mislead people into thinking that both comments are correct regarding the VOLT! They can’t both be right ?!?!?

GM’s Tony Posawatz – “also hints the engine will automatically come on now and then to move the lubricants and stir the fuel a little. That seems like a good idea.”

Guy Incognito #11 – We need to get people to understand that if you drive 40 miles a day or less (80% of us do), “you’ll never have to buy gas”

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LauraM Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:11 am

#29 statik

If it was a Toyota Volt, I’d agree with you. But, unfortunately, GM has a reliability perception problem. Whether or not they earned it is beside the point.

But at this point, when people look at GM’s cars, they already think they won’t last as long as Japanese cars. And if GM asks for an exemption from the regular standard, they won’t care about battery cycling, they’ll just assume GM is being GM. It will feed into every negative stereotype people have about domestic cars.

And Toyota and Honda will have a field day with this. I can see the commercials now. “Introducing the 2011 prius. We didn’t need a legal exemption for our warranty. We build our cars to last.”

It would be even worse if GM just lobbies for a reduction of the regular standard. Because then they’ll take the heat, and if Toyota and Honda come out with an alternative, no one will notice that they didn’t meet the original warranty either.

And, rather than increasing GM’s sales of other cars through the “halo effect,” it will hurt them. People will assume that all of GM’s cars violate the warranty. And they won’t care about which kind of warranty–just that GM wanted to get out of a warranty requirement. It will be a PR nightmare worse than the EV1.

And yes, ten years is a long time for a commitment to a product you only make a couple of thousand dollars on. But buying a car is a huge commitment for a consumer. And people are used to being able to keep them for over ten years, or sell them for a substantial percentage of the price after a few years. That’s going to be tough to change.

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charlie h Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:12 am

Why does USA Today employ Healey? This article raises as many questions as it answers.

From Healey’s article: “Tuning of the gasoline engine. It wasn’t operable in the test cars, so there was no hint of how smooth and quiet it’ll be when it comes on to charge the batteries, if needed.”

If the ICE isn’t operable, this sure isn’t much of a test drive.

From Healey’s artricle: “Posawatz promises it’ll avoid the shudders common on some hybrids.”

Oh, well, it’s all good then. Of course, we’re left to wonder why Posawatz didn’t want to demonstrate that.

From Healey’s artricle: “Price. GM says it’s too early to pick a number but notes that buyers should be able to qualify for a $7,500 electric-car tax credit, effectively cutting the price that much. Based on comments by GM brass and analysts, expect a window sticker of $35,000 to $40,000.”

I’d sure like to know which comments those are… I’ve never seen a GM exec state any number or even a range and explicitly state whether that was before or after the $7.5K rebate. Previous GM estimates have been as high as $48K.

From Healey’s artricle: “GM says it’s unclear whether most Volt customers would prefer to buy the car or lease it and whether the battery pack should be leased or sold separately.”

I thought this was settled… so, is it $40K before or after sticker and with or without battery lease? Healey is giving us words entirely devoid of useable information.

From Healey’s artricle: “The pack should be good for at least 100,000 miles, Kruse says.”

Two of the cars I own are at 150K and 125K miles. This is hardly reassuring.

From Healey’s article: “Powerful. Electric motors give instant torque, and the Volt motor has some serious guts. If the production version — which GM says will have even more power — is like the tester, you’ll be able to embarrass muscle-car drivers when the light turns green.”

Wait – the production car will have more power? They’re doing all this testing with mules that don’t really represent the drivetrain of the production car? How will that affect testing?

From Healey’s article: “Quiet. None of the whine typical of electrics when they accelerate exists; nor the distant whine and howl on deceleration when the motor becomes a generator to recharge the battery pack in what’s known as regenerative braking.”

Except that the tester didn’t have the gas engine… so he doesn’t know how quiet it is or isn’t.

And Healey’s got his own questions, which apparently reflect things GM hasn’t figured out: “But how fast to run it (the engine)? Rev it up to match the driver’s push on the throttle, even though that’s unnecessary? Run it at a set speed that combines good fuel economy and efficient recharging, even though that would seem odd to drivers used to an engine’s revs rising and falling?”

I hope that, some day, GM figures some of this out.

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:13 am

Why not sell the cars w/out a warranty and let a 3rd party take care of it? You can buy whatever you want.. a la carte.

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:19 am

The EV portion of the Volt is 40 miles per charge. If you drive 14,000 miles every year, that comes to 38.36 miles per day. I believe GM will over deliver on the 40 MPC figure. I would be satisfied with that because I would not come close to driving 40 miles per day every day of the week. The Volt will be a great car if the range extender works without a hitch. I don’t see why it would not. But who knows? We will, of course, because Lyle will get another test drive later this year and will get to go beyond the all electric range to make the range extender come on.

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GXT Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:20 am

25. k-dawg wrote:

“I have friends who ONLY lease cars. They want something new every 2 years. With low-mileage Volt drivers, i could see a big market for leasing.”

Only the dumbest/richest of low-mileage drivers would lease a Volt. The Volt is going to suffer from very large depreciation… not just because it is a GM… but because it will rapidly become very old and sad technology as new products come out. You also likely won’t get the entire rebate (but the used/new cars it is valued against will). They could end up spending $1,000-$1,300/month for a car that saves a low-mileage driver ~10 gallons/month.

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Zach Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:20 am

#1 GLV

If you’re not super green, super geeky, or both, GTFO!!

I’m just playing, lol. Congratz on being #1! I got it once. It’s an accomplished feeling

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:24 am

#20 Dave B

“So how do we avoid bankruptcy????”
——————————-

GM does not. Chrysler is a test drive of the GSB to clear up the problems. I assume the government found a bankruptcy judge for the Chrysler bankruptcy in New York willing to do what the administration wants done to the stakeholders. Plus, insuring the UAW ends up with a considerable ownership stake when the dust settles. I would not bet on the “hold-outs” giving in as easy as all that. They have plenty of legal room to make their case inside or outside of the bankruptcy court.

Obama might get a surprise out of the bankruptcy hearings.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:26 am

@charlie h 38

“From Healey’s artricle: “The pack should be good for at least 100,000 miles, Kruse says.”

Two of the cars I own are at 150K and 125K miles. This is hardly reassuring.”

Comparing a battery pack to the ICE is Apples and Chicken Wings. You can’t do that.
With that said, why does GM make that claim? If they are going to do that, they need to mention that it’s calculated by FULL batt cycles of 40 miles X 2500 Cycles Full DOD = 100000 miles.

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vincent Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:29 am

It’s a car people.
ALL options should be available.
Lease or Purchase.
If GM promises a guaranteed residual then they will lease the hell out of them and you will see many more on the road much faster.

Leasing can be wonderful. Just ask the people that had SUV’s when gas busted over $4.50 a gallon. No drama getting rid of it and they thanked God.

Same for technology.
If something comes out that much better and Volt Version 1.0 looks like a VHS tape compared to a CD…Poof it’s gone at the end of the lease and your not holding on to an old school Honda insight.

Just build the car and leave the options open, lease or buy so all can be happy in what their opinion is a good investment for their particular situation in life.

Do Not Forget the CONVERJ and Do Not Change it.
Have a great day friends.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:33 am

#33 RB Says:

I know statik wants to own everything, but even statik does not own all the future gasoline for his present car, or even his own gas station, most likely.
That is, perhaps GM’s statement that it is not yet clear what most customers want is right on. I am one of those who is unsure.
====================

Oh your getting to the heart of my neurosis RB, hehe. I don’t want to owe anyone anything, or be beholden to them. There is a certain freedom with independence, the more I get of it…the more I want, lol.

Your also right that I don’t own a lifetime’s supply of gas for my cars (or a gas station), thats why I want to own/drive EVs, powered by solar. Oh, to dream, sigh.

No man is a island? Pfft. (j/k)

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:38 am

GXT – what if the lease payment is $300/month? After 2 years upgrade to the next model for $300/month? I dont lease cars, but lots of people do. They want something new every 2 years, they dont want to deal w/repairs, they abuse cars, they want a low monthly payment.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:43 am

I have never leased a car but isn’t it like renting? You don’t own and will never own it at the end of the lease as opposed to financing a purchase where you own the car at the end?
Sorry, admittedly I am ignorant of the process.
(

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:47 am

HOLY SH|T!!!!!

Check this out, A Volt Convertible!!!

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/01/rendered-speculation-chevrolet-sky-volt/

***Nevermind, just an artists rendering. It’s cool though so I’ll leave it up.

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StevePA Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:49 am

Just a hunch that if GM lives long enough to get the automotive journalists back in the seat for a production Volt test-drive with the ICE involved, i.e. full EREV availability, the news will be positive. Nothing to base that hunch on other than the progress GM has made to date, and the pressure it has put on other manufacturers to follow suit. If those guys believe Volt is real, I see no reason to doubt.

Lease vs own – Understand some folks would prefer leasing, or leasing at least the battery. For my own purposes, agree with Statik and others GM should offer at least the option to own the entire vehicle outright. That always has been and will continue to be my choice.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:51 am

#37 LauraM says:

#29 statik

If it was a Toyota Volt, I’d agree with you. But, unfortunately, GM has a reliability perception problem. Whether or not they earned it is beside the point.

But at this point, when people look at GM’s cars, they already think they won’t last as long as Japanese cars. And if GM asks for an exemption from the regular standard, they won’t care about battery cycling, they’ll just assume GM is being GM. It will feed into every negative stereotype people have about domestic cars.

And Toyota and Honda will have a field day with this. I can see the commercials now. “Introducing the 2011 prius. We didn’t need a legal exemption for our warranty. We build our cars to last.”

It would be even worse if GM just lobbies for a reduction of the regular standard. Because then they’ll take the heat, and if Toyota and Honda come out with an alternative, no one will notice that they didn’t meet the original warranty either.

And, rather than increasing GM’s sales of other cars through the “halo effect,” it will hurt them. People will assume that all of GM’s cars violate the warranty. And they won’t care about which kind of warranty–just that GM wanted to get out of a warranty requirement. It will be a PR nightmare worse than the EV1.

And yes, ten years is a long time for a commitment to a product you only make a couple of thousand dollars on. But buying a car is a huge commitment for a consumer. And people are used to being able to keep them for over ten years, or sell them for a substantial percentage of the price after a few years. That’s going to be tough to change.
===================

Again, I agree GM has a image problem compared to their peers. And your also right it would be suicide to lobby against CARB (and it’s sister states) to get a exemption/repeal of this.

However, I think GM has a ally in Toyota, Honda, Ford and everyone else interested in building EVs to petition to get this removed…I believe there is already some motions on the subject.

The rule is definitely not being applied as was intended. It originally was to stop/discourage the production of EVs with questionable battery technology that were only good for a couple years before they were significantly diminished in battery productivity. The ‘10 year’ part is the real kicker I think…not so much the 100k miles.

Side note:
I have read the law over several times, and I have failed to discern to context of the warranty, or a situation of it being invoked in the ‘real world’

Specifically, is warrranty/replacement work done if the battery fails to achieve a certain benchmark from original specifications, or only on catastrophic failure.

Basically, what response will you get if you go into your GM dealer and say, “My Volt is only getting 20 AER”. Will they say, ‘yes sir, we will take it out for a spin and if your right we’ll get you a new battery” -or- will you get, “well, that is a reasonable expectation given the age/mileage of your Volt, and we really can’t do anything unless it is much lower, or doesn’t function at all” It would be nice to know the ‘official’ standard of what is and is not acceptable.

/if anyone can find (and preferrably link) the criteria for actually receiving the warranty/replacement on the CARB 10/100 rules, I would appreciate it…I know I can’t find it anywhere (and am beginning to doubt it exists), maybe it is up to the customer to bring it to CARB’s attention on a case by case basis…if so, that is not good (for us).

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GLV Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 11:53 am

#42 Zach Says: “If you’re not super green, super geeky, or both, GTFO!!

I’m just playing, lol. Congratz on being #1! I got it once. It’s an accomplished feeling ”

I am Super-stop-buying-foriegn-oil…

It kinda nice to be first…but I feel like I have a responsibility now to read every post…lol.

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Luke Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:15 pm

I’ll happily take the label of “super geeky”. I’m a geek first, but I’ve turned my attention green issues. So I visit this site regularly.

Personally, I’d consider leasing a Volt.

The argument for leasing is that I think we’re likely to see a lot of development in automotive batteries and electric-car designs over the next few years. If I’m right, then I might decide that I actually *want* to be on the car upgrade-treadmill, and leasing would take the uncertainty out of the process and make the costs predictable.

The argument against leasing is that it’s often more expensive, and I might want to customize my car to carry more cargo (which might violate the terms of the lease). Also, the EV1 history is another argument against leasing.

Anyway, I’m not totally opposed to the idea of leasing. As a geek, I recognize that technology evolves over time — but I’ll have to weigh that against all of the other factors once I start test-driving plugin vehicles for-real!

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Michael Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:16 pm

I originally thought I could rob my 401k and/or IRA for the full price of a Volt in 2011, or finance it and use those funds to make the monthly payments. After losing one Volt’s worth (I got the phraseology from Bob Lutz) from these funds, I am open to the consideration of a lease option, depending on the terms. So, I would like to see both buy and lease offered when the time comes that I can even negotiate for a Volt (in New Mexico). Oh, and I’m much more Geeky than Green.

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Jacob Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:24 pm

Leasing: There a reason they call it “fleecing” a car.

The only way a lease remotely makes sense is if you are using it for business. Otherwise its even worse than financing a car. Its a rapidily depreciating asset people. Its this permanent “payment” mentality that keeps so many people from ever getting any kind of financial security. You should not be making car payments whether your buy or lease! If you can’t afford to buy the car without financing or leasing, look at cheaper car that you can buy.

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RB Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:28 pm

#51 statik notes about the warranty “…if anyone can find … the criteria for actually receiving the warranty/replacement on the CARB 10/100 rules, I would appreciate it…I know I can’t find it anywhere (and am beginning to doubt it exists)”
——————————————————

Suppose there is no specific AER guarantee in the warranty as provided to the customer at time of sale, or in the CARB rules. Then if I were the manufacturer I would argue that so long as the car still will start and run satisfactorily —- even if always in ICE mode —- no warranty replacement is required. Probably some minimal level of battery function is needed for normal ICE operation, but that could be far less than required for 40 miles AER.

/not to say that GM will argue this way

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:29 pm

BTW: Today is monthly car sales time.

And as always, Ford is out first of the ‘Big 2 & one other’: -32%
(if anyone cares, Nissan is out as well, -37.8%)
——
Ford posts big sales drop, still ekes out more retail share

“Ford the first of the major automakers to report, posted a 31.6% drop in April U.S. sales to 134,401 cars and trucks from 196,385 a year ago. Truck sales slid 33% to 77,435 units with sales of the flagship F-Series pickup down 35.8% to 28,757″

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/ford-posts-another-big-sales/story.aspx?guid=%7B5CE02D8E%2DE7EA%2D4193%2D8406%2D116848D9125B%7D&siteid=yhoof

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john1701a Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:29 pm

If you drive 14,000 miles every year, that comes to 38.36 miles per day.
_________________

This is why I say: SMTD

You can’t just divide by 365. The work commute is a bulk of your driving. You work 50 weeks a year, 5 days a week. If all you did was commute, the number comes to 56. More likely, you drive much less on the weekends.

Whatever the case, it is almost certainly more than 38.36 miles per day for 14,000 miles every year… and obviously higher with more miles.

SMTD is required to verify estimates are close to real-world experiences.

Haven’t you ever noticed that the “40-mile” average didn’t include a per-year value?

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LauraM Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:30 pm

#43 N Riley

Actually, according to the New York Times, Obama is strong-arming everyone into taking the deal. Not just the Tarp recipients. And, they’re going to have to accept less than they would in a regular bankruptcy proceeding. So, it may actually work out in the time allotted.

Bear in mind that this is the New York times–which normally falls all over itself to prove that Obama has already outdone Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and Truman as the best president America could ever possibly hope to have, and we should all give daily thanks that he agreed to take the job.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/business/01hedge.html?hp

Of course, the wall street journal has a different perspective:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124113528027275219.html

But I’m inclined to go with the Times in this. If Washington is throwing around its weight, not too many people are going to go against the US government. Especially right now.

Personally, I’m worried about the damage this will do to the bankruptcy code. Good luck to any company with a politically powerful union that wants to borrow money in the future. (I’m sure they’ll still be able to do it, but they’ll have to pay more.) Of course, the UAW is probably the most powerful union in the private sector. So, that means Ford. They really are getting the worst of this…

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RB Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:33 pm

#55 Jacob says of the battery ” Its a rapidily depreciating asset people”
————————-

Yes, and that is why resale may be much cleaner if the battery is not part of it. The original owner claims whatever residual credit remains with the original battery lease. The second owner starts with a new battery and lease.

/ perhaps.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm

#51 statik notes about the warranty “…if anyone can find … the criteria for actually receiving the warranty/replacement on the CARB 10/100 rules, I would appreciate it…I know I can’t find it anywhere (and am beginning to doubt it exists)”
——————————————————
#56 RB says:
Suppose there is no specific AER guarantee in the warranty as provided to the customer at time of sale, or in the CARB rules. Then if I were the manufacturer I would argue that so long as the car still will start and run satisfactorily —- even if always in ICE mode —- and no warranty replacement is required. Probably some minimal level of battery function is needed for normal ICE operation, but that could be far less than required for 40 miles AER.

/not to say that GM will argue this way
===================
For sure if there is no hard criteria on warranty for the 10/100, this what is going to happen. They will fight you endlessly.

I had the side impact strip on my car start to come off my G6 last week, so I take it back in, and had to fight with them for 15 minutes & see ‘the manager’ to get it fixed under warranty…it was going to be all of a $70 fix. No way a warranty pack replacement at year 8 is going to be just dropping off the keys and asking when to pick it up.

I can only imagine the war for a $5,000-$10,000 battery if you don’t have something hard in writing backing you up.

/bring your lawyer, lol

Hopefully there is some benchmarks set to qualify for the 10/100 and I have just not been able to find it. If anyone cares to also have a stab at it and jump into the black hole and try to find it, that would be great.

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LauraM Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:39 pm

# 51 Statik Says:

“However, I think GM has a ally in Toyota, Honda, Ford and everyone else interested in building EVs to petition to get this removed…I believe there is already some motions on the subject.”

You mean like they all lobby against emissions controls and cafe standards? And everyone just blames the domestic manufacturers? I’m sorry, but I really think GM shouldn’t lobby about this.

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kent beuchert Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:44 pm

Dave (the Buffoon) Letterman once again demonstrates how he got that moniker. Aside from having the manners of a scumbag,
we now see that his brain is lacking in other areas as well. And pairing himself with Elon Musk, brainless toady, is a natural. How seldom it is that we find two such perfectly matched dolts feeding off each other’s lies and ignorances. Letterman actually believes that the Volt’s driving range is not as impressive as his three-times-more- expensive Tesla. Tell you what, dopey Dave. I’ll get into a Volt and you get into your crappy Tesla and let’s see how far we each can travel down the road. I figure that I can get cross country about 6 days before you do, assuming you can find someplace to recharge those obsolete first generation lithioum ion batteries that power the Tesla (all 9000 of them). Happy motoring, Dave, you ignorant toady.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:54 pm

#60 RB says:

Yes, and that is why resale may be much cleaner if the battery is not part of it. The original owner claims whatever residual credit remains with the original battery lease. The second owner starts with a new battery and lease.

/ perhaps.
======================
Resale ‘might’ be easier with a new battery, and maybe at year 8, you have to put a new pack in your Volt to sell it, extra $4,000 or whatever, or as you say, they get a new pack.

All EV makers love the idea of leasing. It is like selling condos, you sell the house, then you charge them…FOREVER. Huzzah!

Same for EVs, if they sell you the car for $25,000, then lease you the pack (and ‘warranty’ for $200.00…they get that money, endlessly, until the car is taken out of service. It is not a car full of ‘AAA’ batteries, it is a proprietary pack that most will only be able to replace at ‘Mr. Goodwrench’

Most people are going to baby the heck out of their new Volt, I would guess the median life before hitting the dump is close to 15 years on one. Thats 180 months @ $200 a pop, or $36,000…and GM probably only has to replace the pack once or twice, at ‘future’/cheaper prices along the way.

/I think it would be pretty hard to sell any 10 year old car that also comes with a $200 monthly (or w/e) commitment attached. I see a forced payments on a leased battery as a bigger detriment to resale value as compared to only getting 20AER or 10AER…or having to buy another pack for XXX dollars in 2020.

I think when it comes buying cars and going to dealerships, if there is ‘math’ involved for cost of ownership, or the bill of sale/financing is more than one page long…your in trouble.

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David K (CT) Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:55 pm

“General Motors says its April auto sales dropped 33%. More soon.”
…CNN Breaking News

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:57 pm

55 Jacob

You could say the same thing about a house.. or $ for college….

Financing is what banks are for…. not just to hold your $, they loan it out too. Some debt is good debt.

(i hear the beancounters coming.. uh oh)

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 12:58 pm

Toyota is out with April sales…ugly: -41%

They have nothing in the way of Prius sales right now with the new model out in 2 months. They are just going to have to ride it out until then.
————

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Toyota Motor Corp. on Friday reported its U.S. sales fell 41.9% to 126,540 cars and trucks in April from 217,700 in April 2008. Sales of passenger cars slid 42.3% last month to 77,851 while truck sales slumped 41.2% to 48,689.

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7b5AA71A74-C25C-4253-BF3A-608C4967B8DC%7d&siteid=yhoof2

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:00 pm

Conversely, Honda (now bouyed with the rollout of the Insight mid month) is reporting, “Overall sales are, by far, the highest we have seen so far this year,”

They are off -25.3%

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7b6F24667C-7C45-41E7-9EB2-C91A91EC733E%7d&siteid=yhoof2

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm

Details on GM’s -34%

DETROIT – General Motors dealers in the United States delivered 173,007 vehicles in April, down 34 percent compared with a year ago.

A total of 1,534 GM hybrid vehicles were delivered in the month, illustrating the wide range of hybrid product offerings available. GM offers the Chevrolet Malibu, Tahoe and Silverado, GMC Yukon and Sierra, Cadillac Escalade, Saturn Aura and Vue hybrids. So far, in 2009, GM has delivered 5,156 hybrid vehicles.

Full official GM release here:
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=54038

Of interest:

GM spit out 614 Camaros in april.
G3 Waves: 197
Best selling car, Impala: 17,532

And put Q2 production at 390,000, they built 834,000 in last year;’s Q2…ouch.

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Steven B Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:07 pm

#63 kent beuchert

“Elon Musk-brainless toady”?
Why don’t you research the guy a little and see what you come up with. The guy probably has more brain power than the whole GM engineering dept.

” three-times-more- expensive Tesla”
40k Volt vs 50K Telsa S. Not sure what kind of math works in your world, but thats not 3x. If you paid attention to the big shiny car that rolled onto the stage, Mr. Musk was their promoting the Tesla S.

” I figure that I can get cross country about 6 days before you do”
Tesla is not a cross country car, it never claimed to be. And if you drive your Volt nonstop cross country, you will be on driving on gas the entire time, not electric.

Why such hatred towards the American company that launched the current EV race? Jealous or scared perhaps?

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Tom H Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:08 pm

The following two statements are about the same car! But they’re completely the OPPOSITE! This is what’s going to confuse people when deciding on buying a VOLT. Let’s get it right and NOT mislead people into thinking that both comments are correct regarding the VOLT! They can’t both be right ?!?!?

#36 Anthony BC

GM’s Tony Posawatz – “also hints the engine will automatically come on now and then to move the lubricants and stir the fuel a little. That seems like a good idea.”

Guy Incognito #11 – We need to get people to understand that if you drive 40 miles a day or less (80% of us do), “you’ll never have to buy gas”

———————————————–
Good post. Points up the need for a clear, simple marketing message. For the well informed and educated enthusiasts on this site, GM needs to provide lots of detailed info.

But face it gang, we are a niche.

To get beyond 10,000 units, you need to appeal to Joe Six pack, and beat Prius. The right message is:

“The Volt gets 105 mpg. ”

If you make it any more complicated than that, 99% of the people’s eyes will glaze over. The other 1% will seek out more detail. GM needs to make it not too difficult to find the detail.

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:13 pm

I would like to own an electric car to avoid waking up in a cold sweat after dreaming about an EV 1 type fiasco. However, I would consider leasing batteries if it was reasonable. Saves me the hassle of replacing them, insures me the newest tech, readies me for swapping or quick charging once these are available.

Could lower my initial costs and allow utilities and others to subsidize battery costs, especially if utilities can use them to supplement off-peak renewable power generation, when they are no longer used by Volts.

Project Better Place is even proposing lease payments structured for the miles driven, making out of pocket costs like buying gas instead of paying up front for a big battery that is losing value as it obsolesces.

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dc Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:14 pm

An I’m sorry to be such a skeptic on the mileage issue – but based on everything I’ve read so far I am severely pessimistic that the actual, real world miles per charge will be 40. 40 is the dream number they started out projecting – but when you read about the tests so far and the comments from engineers – I believe its more likely that the “real world” miles per charge will be closer to 30. A/C, heat, radio, etc all of these things are going to draw some amount of power off of that 40 mpc number.

I am almost certain they started at 40 (because X% of people dont drive that far in their commute) but they’ve only seen this # in the perfect scenario testing.

But in this case I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.

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Jacob Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:17 pm

#66 k-dawg
“You could say the same thing about a house.. or $ for college….
Financing is what banks are for…. not just to hold your $, they loan it out too. Some debt is good debt.”

I happen to be one of those bean counters:) Banks aren’t for loaning money, they are for making money. You either pay interest or make interest in life. Banks make interest.

The only good debt is debt for an appreciating asset. Taking out debt on something that also decreases in value is the worst kind. (credit card, cars, etc.) That’s the main reason so many in America are on a neverending debt treadmill that they will never get off. From the minute you start thinking “what will my payment be” you are doomed. I tell all my clients, cash or you can’t afford it. Its humbling for some to realize that instead of that $45k car, they really should buy an $8k used car. But once you make the switch from a interest payer to an interest maker, you will be able to afford a lot more.

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:24 pm

69 Statik,

When’s the last time GM sold more cars than Toyota?

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:28 pm

#74 Jacob says:

I happen to be one of those bean counters:) Banks aren’t for loaning money, they are for making money. You either pay interest or make interest in life. Banks make interest.

The only good debt is debt for an appreciating asset. Taking out debt on something that also decreases in value is the worst kind. (credit card, cars, etc.) That’s the main reason so many in America are on a neverending debt treadmill that they will never get off. From the minute you start thinking “what will my payment be” you are doomed. I tell all my clients, cash or you can’t afford it. Its humbling for some to realize that instead of that $45k car, they really should buy an $8k used car. But once you make the switch from a interest payer to an interest maker, you will be able to afford a lot more.
==============

Argh! Too much good advice written clearly and concisely.

Make it stop, no more, no more…Lyle you need to banish him! What we need is to get as many people as much credit as they can possibly handle (and then maybe a little more) to buy new cars!

/the requirment shouldn’t be how high your FICO score is…just if you have one

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:31 pm

74 Jacob
You are right. But I still see a market for leasing. Some things you cant put a dollar value on. I can understand why my friends lease. Its not for me though. However I do finance. If I get a car loan for 3% financing (or 0% sometimes), i will take my money and invest somewhere and get 6%. Why give all my cash to the car company when i can make it work for me?

PS: I currently owe no money to anyone

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RB Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:31 pm

“http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=960670&topart=hybrids”

Interesting link on attudes of the general public toward electric cars. “We expected a wide variety of opinions about hybrids, but the real surprise was the reaction we got toward EVs — a veritable flat line of disinterest.”

/apologies if this is a duplicate

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David K (CT) Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:39 pm

k-dawg @ 77

I’m right there with you. The last two cars (mine & my wife’s – both paid off – had 3% interest or less). This added very little to the overall cost of the vehicle.

The only thing we owe on is the house (well then there’s the kids college of course), but at 4.375% fixed there is no way I am going to pay it off early. Our savings account was making more than that not too long ago.

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:42 pm

Edit at 72

The volt battery uses 16kWh of capacity when new to give the driver an 8 kWh complete charge. If the utility companies are taking them off of our hands in a couple years in a lease scenario, then they will not have to be so over engineered, since there will be a secondary market for not quite perfect packs, and probably a tertiary market also; for all of the uses that needed a big battery but found new Li Ions to be prohibitively expensive.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm

@jeffhre 80

“The volt battery uses 16kWh of capacity when new to give the driver an 8 kWh complete charge.”

True and as the OWNER of the car, I should be able to ask them (GM) to open the rest of the 16KW to me when the warranty is no longer in effect. There’s no reason for me to return a 50% used battery back to GM or anyone when it still has 50% left “By Design”.
That is of course if the batt and car we’re outright bought and lot leased. Seems like a waste of good $$$ and battery.

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cburk Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm

If Aptera can get 100mpc with 250lbs of passengers, 250lbs of cargo and AC on high than the Volt better be able to get 40mpc with the same stats. 40mpc should be the worst case scenario for the Volt. If not the Volt is not going to be a success.

I am hopeful that with the driver, no cargo and AC off the Volt will get 50+MPC.

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:58 pm

#76
statik

/the requirment shouldn’t be how high your FICO score is…just if you have one
_____________

You know, it’s weird but I’d swear I’ve seen that movie before. Wasn’t it called the Crash of Wall Street or something!

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ArkansasVolt Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:59 pm

#75 k-dawg

Looks to me like Ford sold 129,898 vehicles and Toyota sold 126,540. GM sold 173,007 in April… I would have to say GM is still selling more cars than anyone else in the US.

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Jeff Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:02 pm

#74 Jacob
#76 Statik

Can anyone guess the size of the new passenger car market if everyone followed this good advice? My guess…just the “right” size.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:07 pm

#75 k-dawg says:

69 Statik, When’s the last time GM sold more cars than Toyota?
============
I’m not even going to attempt to answer definitively, hehe. So many different interpretations of when Toyota passed GM, lol.

For me personally (only my own opinion) I think the net ‘whole’ vehicle sales lead went to Toyota in mid 2006.

I have difficulty allowing for sales on a 1 to 1 basis, if GM (or Toyota) have only a marginal interest (or at least less than 50%) in a foreign country (China).

To me if a company only owns 33% of the company, then they need to sell 3 cars in China to equal 1 sale in another country.

Officially, GM sold more cars in late 2006 and through 2007, but Toyota built more. Technically Q1 of 2007 was the first quarter Toyota sold more, and there was a bunch of squabbling about that and 2007 because it was very close (80kish difference…I think…don’t quote me).

Year over year, without competition or debate was 2008…the Q1 in 2008 was like 2.4 million for Toyota to GM’s 2.2 million

/I dunno is that what you were asking?

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Sam Y Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:08 pm

For people like Dave, it’s just really sad that he has to so spiteful towards a product he has never test-driven himself, without getting the facts straight. I sincerely hope that he would issue an apology on the next show.

I mean, come on! I’d choose an e-rev rather an a pure EV in Alberta Winter. If I drove a pure EV, it would die on me all too often in the long cold winter months in Alberta, Canada, then I would only get may be half the range in those months. If I have an E-REV, the generator can keep the battery at a constant temperature, or at the very least, supply the electricity for me to still drive around until I go back home & recharge.

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David K (CT) Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:13 pm

Sam @ 87

Yes, I know…the E-REV is such an elegant solution on so many levels.

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BillR Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:14 pm

#73 dc

“According to Jon Lauckner, vice president for global program management at GM, the Volt can complete six of the 11-mile-long city cycles or the same number of 10.3-mile highway cycles on one battery charge.”

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/23/MNI4144RL4.DTL&type=printable

This seems to indicate that 40 miles AER is possible.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:17 pm

#69 Statik

You seem to have the inside track when it comes to GM. What the hell is going on with Camaro production? You noted 634 for last month which I believe. We got 1 when we were expecting 3 to 5. In fact, the only Camaro to show up was the original floor model V6 that each dealership was promised. We have presold 10 more (all over MSRP) and we can’t get a straight answer why the delays.

My point: Dont expect VOLT to be in showrooms on time. I’ll be surprised if they arrive by June of ‘11.

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Mitch Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:30 pm

#38 Charlie h

From Healey’s artricle: “The pack should be good for at least 100,000 miles, Kruse says.”

Two of the cars I own are at 150K and 125K miles. This is hardly reassuring

You have 2 cars with Battery packs?

Or oare you confused about your confusion as it seems you are confusing packs with car life…and that is being confusing..please clarify as I am confused about your confusion..

(BTW my 2 NA cars (both Chev) have 230 (1986) and 242 (1996) Thousand each, , the blazer (SUV) is at 320 (1982) and the Ford (minivan)just cracked 215 (2002)..all original engine components and they still pass the e test)

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k-dawg Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:38 pm

86 Statik – yep

91 Mitch – holy crap you drive a lot!

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David K (CT) Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Mitch @ 91

You’d better change the timing chain and sprocket on Blazer!

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Mitch Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:46 pm

#92

K-dawg yes I do….I have posted these before and got the same answer..I Love driving, and I travel all over Canada..I fly for business.

The Volt is what I want for my wife primarily, and I am interested inone for when I go to the office rather than be a road warrior.

Remember that these numbers span27 YEARS ( inthe case of the Blazer) I do about 40,000 a year, the new one gets the brunbt, the old ones just keep on tickin..One reason why I have a hard time about the crap comments..Its all about maintenance, other than normal wear and tear items, nothing has been neede on ANY of these 4 vehicles…

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:47 pm

Statik, try this link: CARB PROPOSAL

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=custom&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arb.ca.gov%2Fregact%2Frecall06%2Fsummary_of_regulatory_changes_3-9-07.pdf&ei=3FD7SdWeEOKPmAf3tNXWBA&usg=AFQjCNFOiXcSPxWSA9Rxymt1LksCXAwPEQ

EDITED: That is a pdf file, but it only references other rules. Not sure if that will get you on track or not. Thought at first it might. also:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=custom&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arb.ca.gov%2Fregact%2Fzev2003%2F2ndattachi.doc&ei=3FD7SdWeEOKPmAf3tNXWBA&usg=AFQjCNHwU7bS9F36kObQCUIda3zwtt4zcQ

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:57 pm

Also Statik try:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=custom&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arb.ca.gov%2Fmsprog%2Fzevprog%2Ffactsheets%2F2008zevfacts.pdf&ei=3FD7SdWeEOKPmAf3tNXWBA&usg=AFQjCNF3T__dbY3dwHqRn7qB6M5xa4u0dQ

That is a 2008 fact sheet for ZEV. Maybe that will help.

Edited: I went to the CARB web-site http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm and searched for “electric battery warranty”. Try the web-site search.

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The Green Hornet Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 2:58 pm

Dump your Chrysler vehicle today, before its too late. Remember that you will not be taking your car to the White House to get it fixed. Don’t listen to bonehead statements by this liberal administration.

If GM goes next, oh boy, they will have to worry about a lot more than getting a Volt out the door. Cross your finger and hope to …

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Funk Master D Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:13 pm

Bring on the Volt. What is with this Mule stuff. Can we get a Volt already G?

Lets get real, Chrysler was left for dead by Daimler and that 3 headed monster. Hopefully da union folks and their new Italian masters will right that ship straight up. What it is.

Late.

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David L Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:15 pm

After reading the above posts, I know my viewpoint won’t be popular … but if I had the option to buy a Volt for $27K and pay $100/month for the battery, versus $35K to own the Volt + battery – I would seriously consider it.

The cost of electricity plus $100 per month would be similar to what I now pay each month for gasoline. Paying “up front” about $8K less for the Volt means that I don’t have to save/borrow and extra $8K. It also reduces my risks associated with battery ownership (such as not lasting as long as expected or reduced performance) and may provide an easy route to upgrade the battery and lithium battery technology improves.

Of course, I would hope that the battery lease “option” would not affect any rebates or taxes breaks for the Volt.

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:16 pm

#59 LauraM

“If Washington is throwing around its weight, not too many people are going to go against the US government. Especially right now.”
————————————–

I tend to disagree with the above statement. Now is decidedly the time to go against the U.S. government. If we don’t throw down the gauntlet now, so to speak, when do we do it? Never? Obama is running rough shod over every American business principle. Capitalism is in danger from these actions. Problem is that the businesses involved don’t seem to care. Where have all the capitalist gone to in this country? It is probably too late to turn this train around. I believe we will deeply regret many of these actions in the next few years. I may be wrong (I have been wrong at least once in my lifetime), but somehow I don’t think I am.

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N Riley Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:21 pm

#62 LauraM

“You mean like they all lobby against emissions controls and cafe standards? And everyone just blames the domestic manufacturers? I’m sorry, but I really think GM shouldn’t lobby about this”
——————————

Yes, I agree. Remember it was not just GM lobbying to lift the rule in California about selling electric cars there. Toyota, Honda and the other Big 2 were doing the same. But, GM is the one remembered as the villain because of the EV1 fiasco. GM does not need another of these.

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Red Rooster Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:24 pm

This Volt seem like kewl kar. We need this type wheels in Hong Kong. BYD is coming but Volt look best. How kome you no sell Volt here? I will have to buy in Amerika and ship it to my home. Thanks much and wait much for this Volt in 2010. Go Ge..Motors.

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:36 pm

GM will have to define what the criteria are for replacing batteries. If your cylinder compression is down 10% under current warranties, would you get a new engine?

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:38 pm

CaptJackSparrow #81
You will get the capacity back through software allocation as the pack ages. Dave G has written a lot about this.

As far as pricing, you will pay for the capacity ten years before you use it. It’s a sunk cost and you can’t use the money for anything (investing, security in the event of job furloughs, etc.) for those ten years. And you will be paying auto insurance for the replacement of the batteries, if you keep the car that long.

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:38 pm

#90 CorvetteGuy says:

You seem to have the inside track when it comes to GM. What the hell is going on with Camaro production? You noted 634 for last month which I believe. We got 1 when we were expecting 3 to 5. In fact, the only Camaro to show up was the original floor model V6 that each dealership was promised. We have presold 10 more (all over MSRP) and we can’t get a straight answer why the delays.

My point: Dont expect VOLT to be in showrooms on time. I’ll be surprised if they arrive by June of ‘11.
==========

Yeah, even though they announced they had a start date at plant #1 in Oshawa, for like mid february (15th? 16th?), they didn’t hit it. Although they didn’t miss it by much, I was chewing about it with one of the line guys right around that date (maybe 7-8 days later…don’t quote me, lol) and it hadn’t got going.

I started to see a few show up at the Wentworth pen (can’t remember the name of the lot in Oshawa) around the first of march, maybe a couple dozen. A couple hundred by the second week…so they weren’t clipping at full speed then (that was still of off some kind of pre-production run…but they had stickers, so they were getting shipped, seen some car carriers with them loaded sitting around).

However, I wondered why so many (well, the majority) were V6s at the time, with what you said about the dealers all being promised a V6 to show…that makes sense now. (and why they were your standard ‘dealer’ stock colors, lol)

There are tons coming out now and apparently line is working just fine now after some hiccups. They must have started assigning VINS like crazy in mid/late April for your customers, I expect you will see your ‘aged’ orders very shortly now.

Production was up and running full tilt for sure late march. The first ‘production’ Camaro rolled off the second last week of march (some little event about it I remember) and got delivered sometime in early/mid April.

Many of the 614 sales in april were domestic…er, in Canada. Maybe due to the proximity of plant, or waiting on transport/cross border issues? Or maybe some kind of sale/conversion on the captive fleet for sale (that is just a WAG though). We must have at least a few hundred in Durham. I have been seeing them for 5-6 months now at the pumps/on the roads (those are definity from the captured test fleet)

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jeffhre Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:39 pm

CaptJackSparrow #81

“True and as the OWNER of the car, I should be able to ask them (OEM) to open the rest of the 16KW to me when the warranty is no longer in effect; no reason for me to return a 50% used battery back to GM; still has 50% left “By Design”.
…if the batt and car we’re outright bought and lot leased. Seems like a waste of good $ and battery”

Continued -

If you sell the car sooner you will get rid of it with only the proportional cost / the pricing of a used battery pack. Someone has said that paying for a battery pack is like paying up front for all of the gas you’ll use driving an ICE car!

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Noah Nehm Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:51 pm

Here’s a tip for the management at GM:

As soon as you get the actual Volt prototypes on the road, and after most of the technical issues sufficiently ironed out, you should get a team of engineers to make a cross-country road trip. (Detroit to LA on Route 66?) It would put to rest the idea that the Volt can only go 40 miles.

It would also be an opportunity to put the Volt under the kind of stress only a long trip would produce.

Oh yeah. And it would be fun too. What better PR could you have?

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Smack Daddy Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 3:58 pm

When is this Volt gonna drop. I keep hearing mule talk. Waiting for the real thing says cola mamma. GM needs to get busy. Its time to busta move on this ride. I am ready to roll with the Volt but where is it dawgs ?

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statik Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 4:10 pm

#90 Corvette Guy

Other random stuff about the Camaro. GM said today they had just over 15,000 sold orders for the Camaro.

Total production for April off the GM production website: 7,814 / 614 sold. Have to believe at least half of those are for dealers…and not preorders, maybe more.

/just the way GM does things on rollouts

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Lurtz Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 4:59 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/business/01hedge.html?_r=1

“In a rare flash of anger, the president scolded the group Thursday as Chrysler, its options exhausted, filed for bankruptcy protection. “I don’t stand with those who held out when everyone else is making sacrifices,” Mr. Obama said.

Chastened, and under intense pressure from the White House, the investment firm run by Mr. Weinberg and Mr. Perella, Perella Weinberg Partners, abruptly reversed course. In a terse statement issued shortly before 6 p.m. Thursday, Perella Weinberg Partners announced it would accept the government’s terms.

It was too late.”

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/01/playing_chicken_with_obama/

“This of course is an object lesson that should not be lost on the GM bondholders who yesterday rejected the government proposal aimed at resolving the GM situation out of bankruptcy court.”

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 5:20 pm

“Honda sells 2,096 Insight hybrids in April”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/01/honda-sells-2-096-insight-hybrids-in-april-prius-sales-drop-61/

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Mark Z Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 5:24 pm

No more EV-1 type leases!

Lease with option to buy? That’s OK.

Buying the GM VOLT and battery is my choice – just like the Tesla.

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Dan Petit Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm

************************************************************************
Here’s the deal why leasing a battery might make sense.
************************************************************************
There are two kinds of purposes for the Volt advanced batteries.
The “First Life” is that of a “moving battery” where you use it as GM intended.
As it wears down, there comes a time when the battery is not any longer useful to propel your Voltec vehicle.
There remains a second kind of purpose, or, a “Second LIfe” for the residual power and energy capacity of that battery for what is known as a “stationary battery”, for utilities to use that battery for “peak shaving”, where, they have that battery provide power for those many times that residential power demand unexpectedly peaks. That battery could eliminate very expensive power purchases for outside generation-reserves at very high prices.
So, the residual “stationary power” value of a battery is of keen interest to utilities, and, would be an excellent “second life” for them.
Storing reserve energy, for example, for when the wind shifts and temporarily reduces energy from wind-energy-turbines would be one excellent use. Possibly many utilities would be interested in purchasing these first gen batteries from Voltec Gen 1 vehicles, and, this may be an excellent avenue for the offset of costs for replacement second gen batteries that many Volt owners would then wish to buy outright.
These are some of the potentially-cost-advantageous reasons to parcel out the leasing of the traction battery, especially if the contracting could be made so that the Voltec owner is completely protected either by battery warranty in conjunction with the residual value of the battery, which, I would certainly expect to be very substantial.
So, yes, I would consider a lease, if these circumstances could be proved to make my Voltec vehicle a lot more affordable while providing me an excellent avenue to upgrade to more advanced battery chemistry after, say 3 years,(something I would be highly interested in doing), I would be very strongly open-minded to consider leasing if the payment was more than 40 bucks a month less than a purchase for the gen 1 battery chemistry.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 6:10 pm

1. Electric drive rules:

The media is muddling all the technical info, specs, how the Volt operates, etc, in many cases completely contradicting each other (does the gas engine recharge the battery, run the electric motor(s) directly, both, neither, for example). The one (and pretty much only) thing every mule driver has agreed on:

Electric drive kicks a$$ off the line and for acceleration.

As one writer (Car and Driver) referring to multi day test drives of another electric vehicle put it “Once you experience direct drive, you’ll never want to go back.”

The USA Today article says “Volt owners will be treated to remarkably punchy performance from the electric drivetrain and a level of quiet refinement that appears to lead the industry.” You never get punchy performance and quiet refinement in any other vehicle in the market. It’s a new class – the quiet luxury-muscle launch car! Mmmmmm … better than sliced bread.

2. Breaking News: Martians to manage GM.

In just posted news (Bloomberg), “a Martian is going to run General Motors,” the automaker’s sales chief, Mark LaNeve, said on a conference call. Mr. LaNeve clearly understands that all PR is good PR – now if he can just get some with Volt, maybe by claiming that Denise Gray has a special crack team of Martians working on Volt development, on loan from Area 51 from the US government.

Go, Martians! Go, Volt!

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Brian Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 6:10 pm

No “fleece” for me. No sale, no sale.

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LauraM Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 6:11 pm

#100 N Riley

You and I can go against the US government. But we don’t have standing to sue since we’re not directly affected. The hedge funds do. And, more importantly, their investors. But I do not see either challenging the US government right now. Hopefully, I’m wrong. (And I can’t believe I’m cheering for a hedge fund. I think they should be illegal. But, in this case, I support them 100%.)

I agree with you that the government is running roughshod over capitalism, and, more importantly, the rule of law in this country. If they altered the bankruptcy code to favor health care of retirees in general, I would be OK with it. But favoring one particular union in one particular bankruptcy proceeding because said union has contributed a lot of money to the democrats? That’s not even remotely OK. That’s what our whole legal system is designed to prevent.

I never thought I’d see an article like this in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/business/30uaw.html?ref=automobiles

The most interesting part:

“In the last 20 years, the U.A.W. has donated more than $25.4 million to federal candidates, 99 percent of it to Democrats, according to OpenSecrets.org, a site that tracks campaign contributions.”

“The union ranks No. 16 on the group’s list of top 100 political donors, known as “heavy hitters.” The U.A.W. was well ahead of G.M., which gave $10 million in that period, ranking it 73rd. Chrysler and Ford Motor did not make the list.”

If they get away with this, it will have long term consequences for the capital markets, and the rule of law in this country. Basically, it’s up to the bankruptcy judge now. We’ll see what he decides.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124113484242375207.html

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Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 6:24 pm

Of course, for those scared of good performance in vehicles, the Volt can have a “Tepid” mode, which invokes a pure gasser performance emulation algorithm when selected.

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JEC Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 7:27 pm

Late to the game…again.

Do you people have day jobs?

Anyway, as I have expressed from early on, I would consider a lease on the battery. But, that does not mean I would take it.
I want to see ALL the numbers first, then determine my estimated cost to lease over my expected life of the Volt. I do like the “reassurance” that I am not totally on the hook if the battery gives up the ghost (after warranty). Also, this may bring the price down enough that I could afford it.

BTW: I am a believer in “if you cannot pay cash for it, then you cannot afford it” philosophy, but I believe that leasing the battery may have benefits beyond just financial security, and more peace of mind security.

BTW2: I have noticed how our newer member LauraM is doing a fine job at expressing ideas and opinions. When I read her posts, they seem very clear and consistent (more than I can say for my self, unfortunately) I think she fits in nicely among some of the rest of the beasts amongst us. Nice job Laura!

BTW3: Mitch, I am jealous. I thought I was doing well just turning over 200k on my ‘96 Altima. I admire people I see driving older 70’s & 80’s vintage cars down the road. Especially, if they are the original owners (which of course you cannot tell, but sometimes when you see the driver, you can tell that, thats his baby and he’s nursing for everything its worth)

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Les Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 7:28 pm

If GM whats to make a statement and sell this Car. If GM really wants to get back to the top, they have to do one thing. Bring the dam volt out in the spring of 2010. Little wonder Obama and business people get mad at GM and shake their heads. A Nov. lauch are you kidding. Come on the time to send this car off is spring and what this tells me is GM is not sure of the Volt. Its a very poor statement GM get with it and push this car to be ready by spring.

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Redeye Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 7:50 pm

I would NOT lease a car.

I did lease once and had that uncomfortable feeling I didn’t own anything and was always driving someone else’s car.

However just make leasing an option what’s so tough about that?

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JEC Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 8:27 pm

119 Lee
“..Come on the time to send this car off is spring and what this tells me is GM is not sure of the Volt. Its a very poor statement GM get with it and push this car to be ready by spring.”
———————————————————————————
I hear ya’, but I think GM is going to up to there heads to meet the Nov. 2010 release.

Remember GM is not building another car with a different body, or engine, or transmission, they are designing an entirely new way to build a car.

ICE vehicle have evolved over the past 100+ years, and we learn things and improve them. The Volt does not have the luxury of just upgrading this or that, they need a complete design, and it has to be pretty much bullet proof. So many details, that it would boggle your mind. Little things like where to put the plug, what type of plug, how do we make it safe, how long will the cord be, how will people plug it in when its cold or dark, should we create a standard, should we have multiple ports……………? And this is just a tiny list off the top of my head, of something as simple as the plug, imagine what the real designers need to do.

The thing about designing something, for everyone, is that everyone thinks something is more important than another. So, you need to satisfy 10 million requirements, and you satisfy 9,999,990 million, but the remaining will be 10 will be the ones that everyone focuses on, since no one appreciates the 9,999,990 things you did well.

This is just the way it is when designing for the consumer. Guaranteed you won’t get it all right, but you better be close.

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Brian Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 8:58 pm

121 JEC:
But why does it take GM 4 years to do what another car company can do in 2 (or less)? They are faced with the same challenges.

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JEC Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:06 pm

122 Brian

Who has else has sold an EREV?

The EREV adds a lot of complexity that makes this a different ballgame. I am not totally sold that the EREV is the right way to go, but besides that, you have some real difficult engineering designs versus say a pure EV. The BEV is actually probably the simplest car to design and build. Look at what Tesla and Mitsu did.

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Lev Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 9:21 pm

107 Noah Nehm

This is a great idea. Back in the early days, manufacturers would hold rallys and public displays of their vehicles to gain publicity. GM needs to publicize the heck out of this thing by having it go on a tour of every major city and driving along the highway en route. With free test drives, of course.

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Bob G Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 11:03 am

82. cburk Says, “If Aptera can get 100mpc with 250lbs of passengers, 250lbs of cargo and AC on high than the Volt better be able to get 40mpc with the same stats. 40mpc should be the worst case scenario for the Volt. If not the Volt is not going to be a success.”

========================
My understanding is that the Volt will get 40 miles AER under typical conditions. So, to make it get 40 miles AER under worst case conditions, GM would have to add more very expensive batteries. Since so many people here are already complaining that the current price is too high, I think this would be a mistake.

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Dale Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 1:20 pm

did any one see the piece 100 mile Hummer on CNBC brought to market by Raser Technologies

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1109980170&play=1

gotta like it!

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fas Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 1:24 pm

I don’t think media will be much of a influence. GM fans will close their eyes and get the Volt.

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Don Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm

>>He thinks that the “super-green, super-geek people” will be the early adopters buying Volts as soon as they hit the market. Is he talking about us?<<

Duh.

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Don Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:09 pm

>>> What people seem to forget is that all limited release cars like this, especially in my area (DC Metro), *always* have a significant “limited release” markup tacked on from the dealerships.

I have seen this especially when the first releases of the Prius came out, dealers were getting as high as $10,000 on a markup. <<<

If that is viewed as a ‘problem’ for the Volt then GM will be a MASSIVE success.

Hey, if someone is willing to pay a $10K premium, let them. GM and their dealerships need to money. Badly.

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Don Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Ted says:
>>As previously stated in past blogs Letterman is interested in centralization of power in the government. (Look at his strong support for the socialist agenda of the Obama Administration.) Weakening American business is Letterman’s goal. Then, when businesses are at the brink of bankruptcy, the government can step in as if it is logical to nationalize the businesses. Wake up Americans.<<

LOL! Ted, you better look out . . . I saw a squad of black UN helicopters headed toward your house!

(BTW, you do realize Tesla is also a 100% American car company, right?)

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Don Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:22 pm

Regarding leasing/owning. I think GM should offer the OPTION of leasing the Volt or just its battery pack.

However, they absolutely MUST also offer the Volt for sale giving the purchaser full ownership rights. If they do not, they will create a massive conspiracy theory about how the leases will eventually be terminated and the cars crushed. There are too many conspiracy theorists around for GM to get away with a lease-only or battery-lease only model.

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Don Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm

#82 says:
>>>If Aptera can get 100mpc with 250lbs of passengers, 250lbs of cargo and AC on high than the Volt better be able to get 40mpc with the same stats. 40mpc should be the worst case scenario for the Volt. If not the Volt is not going to be a success.<<<

This is not a fair comparison at all. The Aptera is hyper-efficient three-wheeled two-seater that is made out of composite materials and is a pure EV. The Aptera has a coefficent of drag that is lower than Lance Armstrong on a 10-speed bike!

On the other hand, the Volt is a full-sized four-wheel four-passenger car that has passed crash tests and is built from steel. It is also using the battery in a very conservative manner with a very small depth of discharge. (It is doing this so it can meet the 10 year warranty requirements.)

There is no way you should expect performance that is remotely similar.

BTW, if the Volt can get 50 mpc, they’ll reduce the size of the battery in order to reduce costs. They want it at 40, not higher. But if you hypermile . . . you can probably get 50mpc on a stock Volt. (Drive slow, very slow easy acceleration, eliminate all unnecessary weight from the car, eliminate all other electricity usage, etc.)

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Kubel Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 5:59 pm

GM should offer the option to lease the car and battery, to buy the car and lease the battery, or to buy the car and buy the battery. Forcing people to lease the car will cause people to feel GM is heading down the same path as the EV1.

OFFER THE OPTION TO BUY.

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George K Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:36 pm

“GM’s Tony Posawatz promises “it’ll avoid the shudders common on some hybrids.” He adds that GM is considering how to run the RPMs in that engine. Should they be programmed to match the accelerator or not?”

This may be a decision between noise and gas mileage… If the engine RPM’s match the accelerator, then mpg would suffer somewhat. If instead the engine ran in one or two (sweet spot) speeds, that would provide the best mpg (though louder).

Perhaps that could be one of those customer options… Quiet mode or Economy mode??? However, If mpg ends up much less than 50, then be sure to go for tuning based on mpg to get it as close to 50 as possible. (perhaps, still providing a “quiet mode” option, though.

On another note, I’m used to my Prius, and my preference on something related is that the engine turns off when stopped or driving slowly for short periods. EVERYONE, for their first time Prius ride, comments on how quiet the car is as you start up and slowly start driving. (The Prius engine then comes on after a short while, for power and to warm up the pollution stuff).

=D~~~~

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koz Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 8:48 pm

George K #134

““GM’s Tony Posawatz promises “it’ll avoid the shudders common on some hybrids.” He adds that GM is considering how to run the RPMs in that engine. Should they be programmed to match the accelerator or not?”

This may be a decision between noise and gas mileage… If the engine RPM’s match the accelerator, then mpg would suffer somewhat. If instead the engine ran in one or two (sweet spot) speeds, that would provide the best mpg (though louder).

Perhaps that could be one of those customer options… Quiet mode or Economy mode??? However, If mpg ends up much less than 50, then be sure to go for tuning based on mpg to get it as close to 50 as possible. (perhaps, still providing a “quiet mode” option, though.”

I’m surprised they haven’t sorted this out by now. Perhaps an “engine guy” could provide better detail, but I believe GM may have to make at least a preference choice and build it into the hardware. In other words I’m not sure that can allow the user to choose between optimal quietness and optimal efficiency. There may need to be compromises in the engine and/or control components to optimize one or the other. I think they will pick a resonable compromise between the two. Soft ramp up to power generation level required. As the’ve said, there will 2-3 operating outputs. I expect 3: one at the lowest level of the ICE’s high efficiency range, one at max sustained output for the generator, and one at max efficiency. I hope they can tweak the ICE so that max efficiency will be between 20-25KW. It would make sense that they try to “softly” match the power demands on the way up the power curve but more rapidly respond to decreased power needs so that the Volt doesn’t end up at slow speeds or stopped at the higher generator ouputs.

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koz Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 9:42 pm

Kubel #133

Absolutely. This subject keeps coming up over and over again. Even if nobody chooses to buy the car and lease the battery, this will allow people to “see” the car’s price separately from the battery. As we can see from many comments on this and it will be much worse with the general public, people have a difficult time associated the added value to the car that the battery brings. This value is dependent on the price of gas and each individual driving pattern, but so many times people assign it very little value as if gas is equivalent to electricity in cost. An even better way to get people to think accurately about the lifetime vehicle costs, would be to offer the Volt with a batteryless price and prices for 2 battery sizes (16kwh and 14kwh). This will give the consumer more readon to conider their driving pattern and that process will help reveal the battery’s value.

Incidentally, I would happily take the 14kwh option with a 5 year warranty for several grand less.

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charlie h Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:04 pm

With respect to concern for a battery life of 100K miles…
#44, CaptJackSparrow: “Comparing a battery pack to the ICE is Apples and Chicken Wings. You can’t do that.”

It’s not about an ICE vs a battery, it’s about the value of a car when a component worth $X requires replacement. If the car’s worth $5K and it needs a $2.5K engine, you might well choose to put the engine in it (if you have the cash). If the car’s worth $5K and it needs a $5K battery pack, you are much more likely to junk it. Because of the cost of the battery, the life of the Volt is tied to the life of the battery… If I’m assured of 100K miles of service and no more, the life of the car is also 100K miles. Good luck selling cars like that.

#44, CaptJackSparrow: “With that said, why does GM make that claim? If they are going to do that, they need to mention that it’s calculated by FULL batt cycles of 40 miles X 2500 Cycles Full DOD = 100000 miles.”

Where have they explicitly stated this? Answer: Nowhere. You’re guessing.

#91, Mitch, see above. I don’t have cars with battery packs; I have cars with components worth no more than $2.5K each. The Volt will be a car with a single component valued in excess of $5K. Ask if you have more questions.

Also, Mitch, if I knew you, you’d be the one person I knew with a Ford or GM that went past 100K miles without an impressively expensive repair. And most needed expensive repairs far sooner than that. GM and Ford are in the tank for a reason and it’s not because people spend a lot of time dreaming up stories about them for people to read on the net.

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koz Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:41 pm

Charlie H #137

Any idiot that sees replacing the Volt’s battery is an apples to apples comparison to buying a new ICE will probably not be buying a Volt in the first place. If you hadn’t noticed 100K worth of gas costs a lot more than 100K mikes of electricity. What do you think the cost relationship will be in 2021? The better question is which is the more prudent direction to hedge your bets?

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charlie h Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 10:10 pm

#138, koz,

You might just as well complain about a comparison between replacement of a $2.5K transmission vs a $2.5K engine. Money is money. Either one will kill a $2.5K car. A $5K component requiring replacement in a $5K car will kill that car, too.

Of course, people who buy GM cars are probably used to 100K miles as being the useful life of a vehicle, so maybe I overestimate the severity of this problem. As a former Volvo owner (155K and 200K miles on original engines and transmissions) and having got religion and gone to Toyota (125K and 150K without ANY significant repairs whatever), I tend to think in terms of the projected life of a car running to several hundred thousand miles.

#138, koz: “The better question is which is the more prudent direction to hedge your bets?”

In Economics, we talk about liquidity preference. You don’t tie up $5K to get $5K. If you’d like to discuss hedging one’s bets, you’ll be reminded that the Volt is uneconomic until gas prices hit $10/gallon or so.

Oh, I think battery prices will fall (look at the Prius and Insight; their parts-counter battery prices have fallen significantly over the past couple years) but you can’t rely on any particular factor in your analysis. Nor do we have a firm statement from GM as to what the parts-counter or manufacturing cost of the battery is today, let alone in 5 years. All we know is that this is a component of unproven life, that GM is willing to talk about 100K miles and the cost of the component is large enough to sentence teh car to death of the component fails.

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koz Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:14 pm

charlie h #139

The value of a 10 year old Volt or any other unreleased model is impossible to predict. I’m not going to even try to discuss it. To me, the worthwhile discussion is about the technological value of an EREV or lack thereof. That is the context of which I was speaking. Reputation and resale values are fickle and depend on a lot more things than just realibility, eventhough GM has certainly shot themselves in the foot in this area.

Replacing a $2.5K transmission or a $2.5k ICE for comparable cars IS comparable, assuming everything else is equal but that says nothing about the relative value of replacing an ICE (or transmission) in an ICE only vehicle vs replacing a battery in an EREV. Based on your economics, you believe it to be a wiser financial decision to add $2.5k ICE than a $5k battery to an EREV40 if both vehicles had a $5k value. This is a finacial commitment to another 100k miles for each car (which, by the way, I believe it’s 100k from the battery from what has been said but would mean many more generator miles). This means 100k of gas or 100k more of electric. If gas is more than $2, then you will be far better off with the new battery in the EREV. I thought all economics considered future obligations. Sounds like your doing an investment analysis instead of a cost analysis.

While it would take $10 gas to make the Volt economical under some rare scenarios. If you are comparing apples to apples cars, the “economical” gas price is much lower for the average driver and lower still for the heavy users.

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charlie h Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:46 pm

#140, koz, “To me, the worthwhile discussion is about the technological value of an EREV or lack thereof.”

You can assign any value you like to that. However, consumers will assign values based on seats, cargo capacity, operating cost, depreciation, expected maintenance.

And consumers decide what to do with their dead 100K mile cars on a very practical basis; should I put $5K into this vehicle or just buy something else for $5K? If you like, yes, that is an investment decision. You can also frame it as a cost decision, if you like. If the $5K repair is to a vehicle that is worth just $5K, this is a tossup; except that you will strongly suspect you’ll need that $5K part in another 100K miles. For a conventional car, your worst-case scenario is a $2.5K engine and they appear to last, with proper care, indefinitely. For a Volt, you up the worst-case stakes to $5K.

This is all comparable because financial commitments can be compared.

Of course, for me, this is moot. A Volt makes no sense. I either drive 6 to 12 miles per day or I drive over 240 miles per day, often well over and do so for several consecutive days, on trips (no charging is likely to be possible). At 6 to 12 miles, a Volt is completely uneconomic (I don’t drive enough to justify the cost of the vehicle). On the 240+ mile days, I drive so far beyond the Volt’s AER that it’s uneconomic again.

Most Volt analyses you see here are framed in terms of the perfect use cycle of 40 miles/day, 365 days/year. Who has that? Drive either more or less than exactly 40 miles/day, 365 days/year, and the Volt makes even less economic sense.

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Quick scan of the net - battery tester « Curtain Down. Start the Show. Says:
May 4th, 2009 at 2:20 am
wwskinn3 Says:
May 4th, 2009 at 9:32 am

I still say that GM should keep the SKY or SOLTICE as a 2 seater sports EV. This would be popular with single and couples with no kids. It could get approx 150 miles per charge. One company is already doing conversions of the SKY and claims that mileage. THIS WOULD GIVE GM ANOTHER NICH IN THE MARKET ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY ALREADY HAVE THE CAR.

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USA Today Mule Test Drive Shines a Positive Light on the Chevy Volt | CARSREVIEW.CO.UK Says:
May 8th, 2009 at 11:11 am

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USA Today Mule Test Drive Shines a Positive Light on the Chevy Volt

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