Well it seems Dave Letterman’s thoughtless and derogatory Chevy Volt remarks didn’t just get our dander up, but has ruffled the feathers of the Father of the Volt himself, GM vice-chairman Bob Lutz.
Though moving towards retirement, Letterman’s derision of his brainchild has stirred the fighting spirit in our favorite ex-Marine.
Lutz wrote back on his blog how that clip of Letterman and Musk we showed here has “made the rounds” at GM, though he himself didn’t watch the show.
Lutz accurately pointed out that “Mr. Letterman made some gratuitously derogatory remarks about the Volt’s range, calling it ‘insane’ and ‘ridiculous,’ and in general appeared woefully uninformed about the Volt.”
He took responsibility for Letterman being so uninformed saying it was GM’s fault if he didn’t have the right information by now, but pointed out that if it had perhaps been supplied by Drew Barrymore, maybe Letterman would have noticed.
Finally our fearless leader did what he does best and challenged Dave.
He offered to give Dave a ride in the Volt mule and to appear on the show. And although he noted that worrying about Dave Letterman was obviously not among GM’s “Top 10 Most important things” right now, it sure has them charged up.
We’ve got your back Mr. Lutz.
Source (FastLane)
This entry was posted on Friday, May 1st, 2009 at 7:49 pm and is filed under Marketing, Public Opinion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
May 1st, 2009 (7:54 pm)Mr Lutz fires a big enough canon to attract some attention.
He would be a great guest on the show — smart, fast, fiery, combative.
He could even wear the special tie
May 1st, 2009 (8:00 pm)Good for you Bob! Let Dave put his money where his mouth is.
May 1st, 2009 (8:04 pm)He also needs to be on TV so we can see the special swan trick.
May 1st, 2009 (8:08 pm)Yes – have Letterman over to Detroit. Fly him in on the corporate hang-glider…
May 1st, 2009 (8:09 pm)“Mr. Letterman made some gratuitously derogatory remarks about the Volt’s range, calling it ‘insane’ and ‘ridiculous,’ and in general appeared woefully uninformed about the Volt.”
We can say the same thing about our crazy uncle Lutz and Climate Change.
May 1st, 2009 (8:11 pm)Heck, Lutz already went on the Colbert Report for the Volt. Letterman sure knows how to get publicity. I doubt we will see Lutz on the show, but it’s funny that GM is charged up about it. I still think overall the show will do more good than harm for the Volt.
May 1st, 2009 (8:14 pm)got our dander up? Lyle I think you and Lutz need to take a chill and realize Letterman is a comedian. I saw that the interview (specifically because of the guest) and while I definitely agree Letterman had been misinformed, realize it’s done no harm to the Volt program. Remember any press is good press (marketing rule)
May 1st, 2009 (8:17 pm)I Love It!
Get on the Show Bob!
Roll out the CONVERJ & The VOLT!
May 1st, 2009 (8:20 pm)RB@number 1
Two questions:
1. you misspelled “cannon” by spelling it “canon” Are you referring to the Canon camera company? If so, i’m sure this site dosn’t appreciate free advertising!
2.is RB an abreviation for “red bull”?
!—:)B_A_T_M_A_N(:—!
May 1st, 2009 (8:34 pm)I have but one question for the “greenies” on here.How does a volcanoe spewing its guts fall into the reversal of global warming?The Volt in my opinion is meant to “reverse our dependance on foreign oil”
May 1st, 2009 (8:38 pm)Lutz has made gratuitously derogatory remarks often enough that I imagine he can recognize them.
Or maybe he only responds to things that prick Bob Lutz’ vanity? As in, Letterman taking a shot at Lutz’ $40K compact car? The one that GM has a tough time explaining to people? The descendant of GM’s flop of a hybrid program?
While I’m thinking about it… Just, what exactly, is Lutz an expert on that makes his opinion worth anything? His expertise doesn’t seem to lie in the car business, as GM’s share has been in a steady decline since Lutz signed on.
Maybe they should let Letterman run GM for a while. He at least has the advantage of a fresh perspective. Mullaly seems to be doing a world of good for Ford.
May 1st, 2009 (8:42 pm)#10, MarkyMark,
I’m a greenie. Your question makes no sense. What are you trying to say?
May 1st, 2009 (8:44 pm)I thought Lutz was fired at GM and banned from corporate headquarters. I am sure the Letterman was just joking. Lighten Up folks. The Volt only goes 40 miles – just deal with it.
May 1st, 2009 (8:47 pm)True, Letterman is a comedian and he was joking, but most people are stupid, and will take his jokes to heart. While I was walking around the auto show, I overheard people making uninformed subjective opinions about cars left and right. The public is easily swayed, and Letterman’s comments will be repeated in workplaces, schools, and homes all across America. Not what we need. It’s a good thing that Lutz, and therefore GM, is publicly coming out about this and swaying all those people back over.
May 1st, 2009 (8:51 pm)Reading some of the posts apparently from the Letterman viewers, that posted after midnight, everyone that knows ANYTHING about Voltec technologies realizes that this would be a good audience for a Volt demonstration and practical education.
There apparently is a lack of REM sleep with that group in their lack of cognitive capacity to understand things technical as indicated with all that silly lashing out. They’ll continue to do that until the day that they can turn on their high def TV and surround-sound and become proven wrong when they get even a hint of what it is like.
Then, they will do what every other skeptic will do;
************************
say nothing more.
************************
think “oops”,
and just want one worse than anyone else.
The harshest critics and skeptics are among those who turn
around the fastest and hardest, and, these are going to be the very same ones who would barge their way in line in front of everyone else to get a Voltec vehicle.
Especially Letterman, I’d bet.
It really is a good thing to get many more uninformed people to start thinking in terms of EREV’s. There will be more and more of these groups of “kicking and screaming” audiences, but, you have to start somewhere with all of them. We just have to put up more patience in response to their unawareness. I think that we are making great progress toward finding these apparently isolated
audiences, and, it’s a great idea to not only show up onto his show, (likely what he is trying to set up in the first place), but, to send Letterman the complete archives of technical commentaries firstly, (including the ones I’ve posted here), which may best explain the reliabilities and necessities of the EREV approach for 80 percent of drivers in America.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
May 1st, 2009 (8:59 pm)If Bob was able to take his swan on the show and it bit Dave that would make me laugh!
May 1st, 2009 (9:02 pm)I never realized that Mr. Musk was the inspiration for the Chevy Volt. This guy is totally awesome. First Tesla then the Volt and then the Space Shuttle replacement. I think this man is my new hero.
May 1st, 2009 (9:03 pm)#9 batman! refers to my spelling of “canon” and wonders what it references. I intended it to refer to Mr Lutz’s muscial talents and in particular his selection of “A composition or passage in which a melody is imitated by one or more voices at fixed intervals of pitch and time.” thinking of how he would sound on the Letterman show.
Actually of course I just didn’t spell it right
Thanks for the correction.
And yes, “RB” does stand for Red Bull. Maybe I’ll spell it out in the future, but the initials are speedy when typing.
May 1st, 2009 (9:08 pm)Dave won’t have him on. Dave has completely lost touch with the mid-west common sense wisdom and life style. Just like the rest of the entertainment (including news medias) industry. Heck I might even watch his show if he did have him on. I use to watch Dave, even when he did his AM show that flopped. But since he signed on with the mass opium of the entertainment caste I have lost interest in him.
May 1st, 2009 (9:12 pm)From the article: He [Lutz] took responsibility for Letterman being so uninformed saying it was GM’s fault if he didn’t have the right information by now, but pointed out that if it had perhaps been supplied by Drew Barrymore, maybe Letterman would have noticed.
————————————————————————————–
Maybe that’s supposed to be a joke, but I take it seriously. Celebrities are part of most successful marketing campaigns.
If Leonardo DiCaprio did a commercial about the Volt, a lot more people would get it. Seriously, Leonardo DiCaprio just wrote and narrated a documentary called the 11th hour, which identifies many of the issues the Volt will address, so he may be interested.
There are probably a lot of other celebrities that might be interested as well.
GM’s marketing department has to take the Volt from geek to chic.
May 1st, 2009 (9:20 pm)#19.
Do you think that, in part, Letterman would be scared to have him on?
Not just because Letterman is apparently non-technical, but, perhaps possibly from other perspectives, Letterman’s ratings aren’t worth boosting in exchange for educating his audience. He would be lucky to get something on his show that is now of very high interest and intrigue in America. “Interesting” and “intriguing” things are not anything I’ve seen there ever.
Perhaps he’d just not ever practically “get it”, and his audience (eventually) certainly will.
Dan Petit Austin.
May 1st, 2009 (9:37 pm)#17 Three Muskateers Says: I never realized that Mr. Musk was the inspiration for the Chevy Volt.
————————————————————————————–
Lutz was the inspiration. He wanted to do an electric car to repair GM’s reputation. But GM’s board didn’t want anything to do with an electric car, saying that it wasn’t possible. Tesla provided proof that it could be done, which gave Lutz the ammunition to do a concept car. In working out how to possibly make a car that was affordable, the extended range EV concept was born.
Note that Tesla was the brainchild of Martin Eberhard. Elon Musk just provided financing, and later fired Eberhard.
I used to be a big fan of Elon Musk, but he hasn’t been doing well recently. Lots of problems at Tesla since he took over. SpaceX just postponed indefinitely their first launch with a real payload. Musk just got divorced. Seems a bit shaky right now.
Also, Musk’s previously stated objective with Tesla was to help start the transition to electric drive, and he said that if major car makers were to transition to electric because of Tesla, that would make him very happy. Now that the Volt is getting closer to being real competition, he’s changing his tune, making up all sorts of petty reasons why a range extender won’t work. The reality is that Tesla can’t compete head-on with a major car manufacturer, so Musk has to spin things hard to get more money. Its a shame…
May 1st, 2009 (9:55 pm)GM should be making a battery only Cruze since it seems to test out so well and it sure looks like a nice sized car , even the dash looks like what many would want and expect . There are thousands of people who would just love to get their hands on an all electric car that is made by a company like GM , Ford , or Chrysler that they can afford and that they don’t have to make themselves . ( The Japanese should not be allowed to do this first as the first to market will capture the market for all time )
Bring out a Cruze electric car in 2010 and extend the range to 60 miles or more , depending on the customer’s wants .
The Volt as a Volt that we are used to seeing should be put on hold or brought out with the smallest battery pack as standard with options for 10 to 40 miles all electric first then hybrid there after and priced accordingly . so money can be made on it quicker .
The lead vehicle should be the Converj with a fifty to sixty mile electric range before it becomes a hybrid , and it too should be priced at a premium to earn a profit right from the beginning .
May 1st, 2009 (10:04 pm)#11 charlie h Says: As in, Letterman taking a shot at Lutz’ $40K compact car?
————————————————————————————–
What car is that?
The Volt costs less that $30,000 after tax credits.
May 1st, 2009 (10:05 pm)I am in awe of Musk’s accomplishments as well, but I do get annoyed at his conniving. He is a visionary, but I guess he fails to recognize the vision of others like Lutz. And he sometimes seems quite draconian in the way he runs his businesses and treats his employees. He was a major reason I decided not to work at SpaceX, although I am a huge admirer of SpaceX and have friends who work there.
Like I always say, he is the modern Howard Hughes, in both the good and bad ways.
May 1st, 2009 (10:19 pm)I think Letterman realizes the Volt has a gas engine and doesn’t need an “education” on the subject. I think he just really likes the idea of driving all-electric all the time and was being a bit zealous. This whole episode is getting to be overblown.
May 1st, 2009 (10:30 pm)I’m with #8 Vincent.
Put Bob, the Volt and the Converj on Letterman. And give us a price tag and a top ten reasons an EREV is better then a BEV.
May 1st, 2009 (10:34 pm)They are both a little ‘crazy’
All you need to know here is Lutz is talking about Letterman making uninformed comments….and he starts his blog by saying:
“I don’t know if you happened to catch David Letterman Wednesday night. Frankly, I didn’t, nor did many of my colleagues at GM….”
–then he goes on to talk about Letterman’s interview, which obviously he learned of thru osmosis, or through thrid party office talk…which is 100% accurate and is not baised in anyway…unlike actually watching it
“So that’s why we’re taking a moment on a Friday to let you know we heard what was said, we don’t agree with it, and we’d like the opportunity to put things right. Simple as that.”
–well, I didn’t actually hear it, or my colleagues here at the executive level at GM…but I’m going to but out a statement anyway
/Classic. Pot meet kettle.
The legend of man with the pink tie continues. I guess this is his first act as “Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor” ie) doing the things that are not on ‘GM’s top ten list of things to do’ and rebuke David Letterman.
Oh, how I have missed Bob since he has taken/been forced into the back seat. Thanks for this post Lyle….sweet memories. I think we need a Lutz ‘officially’ official retirement clock. 243 and counting.
May 1st, 2009 (10:37 pm)The Volt costs less that $30,000 after tax credits.
______________________
Sounds like a crock of @#&%. Such dependency on credits, which are limited by quantity & time and not everyone will qualify for, is a sign that mainstream sales are a loooooong way off. Where no credit at all is available, it’s basically a non-starter.
May 1st, 2009 (10:47 pm)statik@#28: /Classic. Pot meet kettle.
Did you watch the Letterman thing during the original broadcast or on the copy posted here? I did not “catch” the Letterman show originally, but I know exactly what was said due to this fancy new interweb thingy. I don’t see where Mr. Lutz has said anything “crazy”.
May 1st, 2009 (10:59 pm)I think this is much ado about nothing. The Volt does not need Letterman’s blessing. Or anyone’s, for that matter. The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding. The Volt, if it performs as advertized, will do just fine. GM needs to keep THEIR eye on the ball.
If folks here are so concerned, there have been many other battles to fight. Like how GM (and Detroit in general) has taken monthly (weekly?) gouging by the likes of Consumer Re#@%rts and others. Unfairly biased, statistical abusers, self declared masters of all things car related. If there is a real battle to fight in the media, its convincing people that 2009 GM makes some of the best cars available anywhere, with class-best fuel mileage, and less expensive than most. Wheres the uproar about this?
This has been going on for years.
The Volt’s feelings didn’t get hurt on Letterman. Neither did its reputation. Its a comedy show. Moreso than even a talk show.
May 1st, 2009 (11:12 pm)#30 StevenU Says:
statik@#28: /Classic. Pot meet kettle.
Did you watch the Letterman thing during the original broadcast or on the copy posted here? I did not “catch” the Letterman show originally, but I know exactly what was said due to this fancy new interweb thingy. I don’t see where Mr. Lutz has said anything “crazy”.
======================
Well I guess you could interpret what he said was that he didn’t catch it live…but he also doesn’t say he saw it, he says later, “we heard what was said, we don’t agree with it,” implying he did not watch it at all.
I guess you could argue he downloaded to his ipod and just listened to it…or someone sent it to him as a funny WAV/MP3 file in his email.
He also says, “you can bet the clip of Dave interviewing Elon Musk of Tesla Motors has certainly made the rounds here, and has people up in arms, particularly the Chevrolet Volt team.” — again, ‘you can bet it has,’ so nonchalant…’not that I could confirm that it has…it just makes sense’
We are not stupid, we know what he is doing…obviously I’m being a little sarcastic, lol. He is trying to take shots at Letterman’s popularity and discrediting his venue by acting like he has never saw it or most of the people he knows…his lead out sentence is to do that, and it filters through the whole blog post.
Of course, he actually has seen it…but he is also trying to call Letterman on disseminating ‘uniformed’ information while portraying himself as preaching from that same pulpit.
The point is…he could just say something straight out, but he never does…there is always a twist. He is always operating without a filter…without a Phil LaNeve if you will. And I have grown to enjoy/be comforted by these types of Lutz moments.
May 1st, 2009 (11:16 pm)KICK HIS ASS, LUTZ!!!
May 2nd, 2009 (12:34 am)______________________________________________________
This blog site would be not…if not for Lutz.
Thank you Mr. Lutz for the Volt!
Lutz once said the Volt would be his greatest contribution to the automotive industry. I agree.
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________
May 2nd, 2009 (12:50 am)This coming from the guy who says “global warming is a crock of sh1t” and had a large part in running GM into the ground.
Dave was voicing the overwhelming sentiment of most of the country, agree with it or not.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:04 am)honda insight is outselling toyota prius, this leads me to believe that the most affordable and green car wins…. i wonder if the Volt sells like insight and prius does if ever it comes out…
http://www.easier.com/view/News/Motoring/Honda/article-247565.html
May 2nd, 2009 (1:52 am)Well, I doubt Letterman will take him up on that offer–there’s no way he’s going to take GM remotely seriously at this point. It would be great if he did though. When did comedians become our major news source anyway?
Personally, I think that any positive press for any EV will help GM. The general public needs to become comfortable with the idea of an electric car.
No. It’s not great that he’s repeating misinformation. But at least people know that GM is working on something. And when GM comes out with the Volt, they’ll have plenty of opportunities to inform people.
#36 newbie
The Toyota Prius is coming out with its next generation model in about two months. So, no one’s buying the old one.
May 2nd, 2009 (4:04 am)What i dont like about the Volt is the design. The range is fine cause of the extender.
He had Elon Musk that did the Model S. No offense to GM, but the design of Model S is way way better than Volt. And if you think about it, it’s not really a lot more expensive. Volt looks like a 20k car, not like a 40k.
May 2nd, 2009 (4:27 am)Brian @ 35 says: Dave was voicing the overwhelming sentiment of most of the country, agree with it or not.
Well that is a huge concern then. I think the easiest way to describe it is “It drives 64kM (40 miles) on electricity only, then is like a Prius after that.”
Ya got to make it simple, if ya want people to understand.
Off topic. I can no longer make the statement “every post, every comment” as I have been in court all last week and have very little time.
The hearing is about a 540MW wind farm proposed for near here. I was able to work the Volt into my evidence twice, before the Judge shut me up and made me talk about the topic I was there for. I mean really, some people have NO sense of fun! Then with a question from the panel, I was able to work it in to the answer haha. Statik, I also managed to slam H2 as well, that was a freebe from the panel, I think they were just testing me.
Anyway, at least twenty lawyers are now familiar with the Volt. hehe. Good marketing I should think!
/So can I jump to the front of the que to buy one in NZ now?
May 2nd, 2009 (5:30 am)Prepare a Voltech Cruze with thick clear coat apple red and 18″ Volt wheels. Get the kill switch off the dash. Replace the gawdy plug-in stickers with a simple chrome EREV emblem.
Then give the car to Letterman for 3 days and 3 nights.
Quietly pick it up and say, “We appreciate your time spent test driving our new EREV. Hope we have won your business”. Simply leave it at that. You’ll be surprised what happens.
=D~
May 2nd, 2009 (5:59 am)I doubt Bob will get the chance to be on Letterman. And if he did, Dave would do the same to Bob as he did to Elon, cut his answers short and then interject his own nonsense.
I doubt Letterman will want to drive the Volt, because if you remember the show, his balls have been magnetized! He must now avoid all metal objects for the fear of having his crotch stuck to some metallic object (think of the boy putting his tongue on a cold pole in winter from “A Christmas Story).
So now Letterman can become the brunt of all jokes regarding the Volt. And if he tries to be a wise ass, we’ll just bring out the heavy metal.
As the expression goes, “When you got ‘em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.”
May 2nd, 2009 (6:13 am)Now that I think back and remember his voice, it did seem like Letterman could have sung Castrato on the night of the show!
May 2nd, 2009 (6:47 am)honda insight is outselling toyota prius, this leads me to believe that the most affordable and green car wins….
________________
Disregarding sales data here and quoting from another market to draw a conclusion here without saying that’s what you did is greenwashing. The outselling claim is quite incorrect.
The data from here for April is . Insight = 2,096 . Prius = 8,385
May 2nd, 2009 (7:51 am)If Drew Barrymore was showing me something, I’d look. Here she’s got Dave’s attention x 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LYV9AZNlFU
+++
Dave Letterman knows the volt has a range extender. And how dumb does everyone on this website think he is?? Letterman had an axe to grind and the sparks were flying.
It’s not unreasonable to assume that the general public has little interest in a compact car that has no better performance than an insight, costs twice as much. likely burns more fuel after 40 miles, and would only save them $400 a year on gas.
Go ahead Bob, make your case. Likely you’ll end up talking about a “transition” vehicle.
Oh, and “maximum spin Bob”, if you give anyone else a ride in that mule . .. make sure the range extender is running. We already know how a BEV works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-AWy2nBT-s
May 2nd, 2009 (7:56 am)If Letterman doesn’t understand why the 40-mile range with an onboard generator is better than a pure electric car, then I guarantee that MOST of America does not understand either and the Volt will FAIL.
That is GM’s fault. It’s their marketing arm’s fault. It’s their advertising company’s fault. How much money was spent on that Volt ad that taught America NOTHING!
GM needs to make lemonade out of this whole affair and start marketing to educate why the 40-mile range with range extender is better than a pure EV.
Mass adoption of the EV is about ONE thing…
RANGE ANXIETY!
People aren’t stupid! They know that when a gasoline car runs out of gas, they can just dump in more gas. Hell, they can carry 100 miles worth of gas in 5-gal gas can and dump it in their tank in less than 2 minutes. (A comforting thought on a rainy day.)
When an electric car runs out of electricity, you have to spend lots of time and money towing it to an electric plug and then wait for HOURS while it slowly accumulates enough charge to get you back on your way. (People avoid PAIN)
Range anxiety is why the electric car has been a fantasy, period.
The E-REV is the ONLY electric car WITHOUT range-anxiety!
The Volt’s 40-mile range will handle 78% of ALL daily commutes AND the range-extender means that the car can be used on ALL long trips and WITHOUT range-anxiety… EVER!
The E-REV is the best of BOTH worlds and GM needs to push this point EVERY TIME they mention the Volt. This fact is as important as the benefits of electric drive!
The 40-mile range also means that the battery is smaller and thus the car more affordable for the MAINSTREAM and not just a toy for the rich like the Tesla or a city car or NEV for the “Greenatic Fringe”.
If you want America to be free of imported oil, then the E-REV is the ONLY way for MASS adoption of the EV.
Letterman AND THE REST OF AMERICA needs an education.
Common GM. Learn from your mistakes and get your marketing act together. Don’t sell… educate, educate, educate.
If you don’t, the EV and E-REV are DEAD! (just like the EV-1)
May 2nd, 2009 (8:01 am)#44 add,
If it weren’t for Lutz, Wagoner, et al, maybe we’d have a website about the EV3, or GM’s 50+ mpg hybrid that was going up against the insight.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:04 am)Letterman, I fling poo in your general direction.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:21 am)I appreciate Dave Letterman’s talents and enjoy his show from time to time. I guess even the best have an off night. In my view this Elon Musk segment was one of those. Some thoughts:
- Letterman knows his toughest competitor Jay Leno has a rep as a car guy, one who has made known his enthusiasm for the Volt…so a chance to needle his competition a bit;
- Letterman knows the size of his audience and the impact his statements can have. Entertainment aside, in my view he has a responsibility to accurately represent the facts when it comes to an issue like this with so much at stake for so many. He did not qualify his statement about Volt’s 40 mile range as being purely electric range, which is misleading, and I’d guess by now he knows that. The staff member who did the research should be sent to the corner of the room awhile;
- Perhaps Dave pandering to his guest a bit as well.
Not one of Dave’s better segments, for sure.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:30 am)Having Letterman drive a real Volt once the bodies come out of production the end of this month would be a real show stopper! Also have Jay Leno drive one of the pre-production units this month too. That will expose the final Volt to millions of Americans. You can’t get that good of advertising if you paid for it. And with the economy the way it is, all the free advertising you can get is a very good thing!
May 2nd, 2009 (8:40 am)Better yet give Letterman a Volt with a “short” in it. I would be more than happy to watch a U-Tube clip with all of the Volts 16 KWh being delivered,, in about 15 seconds.
I would let somebody else make the decision weather it is delivered though the steering wheel or the drive wheels….
#47, Good one!
May 2nd, 2009 (8:49 am)#24, Dave G: “The Volt costs less that $30,000 after tax credits.”
More Kool-Aid, Dave? GM spokespersons will talk about a Volt price somewhere between mid $30′s and $48K. Not one of them has ever explicitly said “before” or “after” rebate. Not one. At best, you’re going to see a drive away cost to the consumer, after rebates in the mid to upper $30′s. Low $40s still strikes me as very likely.
Further, it’s disingenuous to talk about the Volt price without talking about the FULL Volt price. Just because the new owner gets a break doesn’t mean the car’s price is whatever he paid. Part of the price is mitigated for that owner by my unwilling cooperation in subsidizing it.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:52 am)#50, Red HHR, “Better yet give Letterman a Volt with a “short” in it. I would be more than happy to watch a U-Tube clip with all of the Volts 16 KWh being delivered,, in about 15 seconds.”
And that will be the immediate end of all Volt sales. Sounds like a plan. It would set electric cars, generally, back about 10 years.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:53 am)Off topic,
This is very, very big news. (If true).
From the Wall Street Journal and Tulsa World:
U.S. Gas Fields Go From Bust to Boom
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124104549891270585.html
Northwest Louisiana natural gas site gets attention
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=20080513_49_E4_spancl511097
(The conversion of a ICE from gasoline to natural gas is a relatively cheap and simple process.)
May 2nd, 2009 (9:08 am)I have heard $40,000+ down to $22,000 for the Volt with none on the road.
The Tesla costs $110,000+ but is on the road right now. Tesla S not out for at least 2 years and that is if they can get funding. In fact Tesla may be out of business in 2 years.
Fact is Tesla can talk now because they have a car out. GM can not.
Letterman (like 90% of Americans) is ignorant about the Volt and will continue to be as long as he can not put his hands on one and drive it WITH THE GENERATOR WORKING. Get one finished in the final form and let Dave take it for a drive. I believe he will change his tune very quickly.
May 2nd, 2009 (9:12 am)Dave is a smart guy; he did what he had to do to get GM to give him and his show the same attention they gave Jay Leno. If I were GM I wouldn’t give Dave the time of day, instead I’d go back to Jay Leno and let Jay talk about how ill informed or senile Dave is regarding the Volt. If and when Dave apologizes about his ignorance, then give him a ride in a mule. In today’s internet savvy world, there is no excuse for claiming ignorance.
NPNS!
May 2nd, 2009 (9:17 am)#52 charlie h,
It’s a gag, remember. I would prefer the smoky burnout myself.
Cheers
May 2nd, 2009 (9:17 am)#53 Carcus – thanks for the links.
One quote in the WSJ article suggests it might be more efficient in the long run to have natural gas displace coal over time for power generation. They would power vehicles from the grid rather than convert current gasoline station infratructure to natural gas.
One would think the gasoline station infrastructure will have to be converted or abandoned eventually as oil supplies dwindle.
So unless some amazing battery technology shows up with much greater storage capacity and much faster recharge times, maybe future gen Volts and similar vehicles will have natural gas fueled ICE generators.
Good stuff.
May 2nd, 2009 (9:19 am)I do not think Letterman need worry about some guy with a pink tie…
But his staff has seriously stumbled, he is messin with Obama’s baby now.
May 2nd, 2009 (9:25 am)Actually the Volt goes 40 miles on the highway and less in the city and grid lock traffic (based the discussion in the post yesterday).
Letterman can be thoughtless and mean spirited in his remarks if it does fit in his world view. So, either let yourself be offended or see the need to get the truth that GM can’t seem to do.
Granted, GM might die off if the unions/government get to run the show… making all this discussion mute…
May 2nd, 2009 (9:26 am)#57, give me fuel cells.
May 2nd, 2009 (9:29 am)tim @ 45:
Well said!
May 2nd, 2009 (9:36 am)It certainly seemed like Letterman was well informed about the history of electric cars in America and the benefits of electrics vs. fossil fuels. How could he be so UNinformed about the Volt? If it is intentional, he will only look idiotic when the car comes out. Makes no sense.
A few months ago, I heard Michael Medved say almost exactly the same thing on his radio talk show. “It only has a 40 mile range. No one will buy that. Its a boondoggle.” This is a very well educated and otherwise well informed man.
These folks seem to have a real hostility about the Volt that baffles me.
Is there some source of misinformation that these guys are reading out there?
May 2nd, 2009 (9:39 am)#45 tim said “That is GM’s fault. It’s their marketing arm’s fault. It’s their advertising company’s fault. How much money was spent on that Volt ad that taught America NOTHING!”
———————————————————–
For the most part ordinary people have no judgments about EVs, either positive or negative. That is sensible since there are (virtually) no electric cars for sale. How can you form a judgment about something that does not exist?
Yes, engineers, economists, presidents, prophets, soothsayers, and fortune tellers are imagine the future as if it was real.. Ordinary people are too smart to waste time that way
May 2nd, 2009 (9:39 am)Give ‘em hell Bob, Letterman bad mouthed our baby!!!
May 2nd, 2009 (9:57 am)zipdrive (#61)
Thank you.
I also believe that GM MUST DO prototype Volt test drives for Letterman, Leno, every TV news anchor and blogger (Lyle) ASAP and yes, that includes a working generator so people can’t say “what are you hiding this time”.
A possible marketing slogan:
“Voltec – The benefits of pure electric drive without the worry of running out of battery charge.”
This message (or one like it) MUST be driven into the “hearts and minds” of potential buyers over and over again. This is one “broken record” that must play on until E-REVs are in every other driveway in America.
Since EVs are new, NOW is the time to set a paradym into the minds of the general public of what EVs are really about instead of letting natural range-anxiety or past “golf cart” NEVs kill mainstream EVs yet again.
May 2nd, 2009 (10:00 am)ADVERTISING
I think the first adds need to spend nearly all their time promoting the ER portion of E-REV. I think I would list ALL the major EV builders and show the longest and the shortest range offered by the mix. Then I would say “the Volt’s range is not limited because it will start producing its own electricity when its battery is getting close to range limit” And in closing the add I would say something to a stranded EV driver like “would you like a lift to a phone so you can call a tow truck?”
May 2nd, 2009 (10:16 am)Great theater. Might turn out to be a great PR opportunity. Let’s hope so.
#32 statik says “Well I guess you could interpret what he said was that he didn’t catch it live”
I interpreted it like StevenU. But I wasn’t trying to find an inconsistency. If you look hard enough you’ll always find one – even if one doesn’t exist. That said he wasn’t as specific as he might have been though he probably didn’t think he was preparing for a deposition.
FWIW, for all those criticizing David Letterman for not being informed, I don’t think being “informed” is a job requirement for a late night comedian. If anything it’s the opposite.
The more interesting point is that anyone who believes anything that comes out of the mouth of Elon Musk is a moron. The man is a walking talking hyperbole machine. Saying the Model S will cost $49K without mentioning that this figure includes the $7.5K federal tax credit demonstrates his penchant for half-truths. On the merits, the fact that Fisker has recently closed a new round of funding while Tesla has been shut out doubtless represents a judgment on the viability of BEVs (as compared to E-REVs).
May 2nd, 2009 (10:18 am)Here is an excellent read:
Automotive Market Research Perspectives on Selling “Green” in a Try-to-Survive Market
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/05/green-trouble-market-20090502.html#comments
“We’re going to charge you more for this technology. We can’t tell you what the resale value is going to be. We’re not sure how much maintenance cost you are going to incur and quite frankly you many need to replace the battery pack after 3-4 years and it may cost between $3,000-$5,000. Gasoline may cost between $3-$5 while you own this vehicle. It is not quite as reliable, its not as powerful and it is not as fun to drive. Would you buy this vehicle? Not exactly a value proposition.”
May 2nd, 2009 (10:20 am)Actually the Volt goes 40 miles on the highway and less in the city and grid lock traffic
______________________
A reason Volt enthusiasts have such a difficult time fighting off the misleading information is they don’t have anything solid. Real-World data is desperately needed. You can’t make claims like the one above with any credibility. It may indeed be true, but even then you wonder what the driving conditions were… speed, temperature, load.
No one experiencing the generator at work only leaves Volt wide open for attacks. It gives the impression GM is hiding something.
May 2nd, 2009 (10:40 am)Another advertising program has to be on quality of the Volt and GM as a company. I think if GM enjoyed the advantage of customer mindset of quality the Volt would allready be tested and marketed. I firmly believe Toyoda and Honda would be marketing the car if it were theirs and customers would be happy with it.
Think about this, I think if GM had came out with the prius their customers would say “its alright if you want to take off like a wounded snail and if you can stay out of other drivers way on a steep hill”
May 2nd, 2009 (10:44 am)“honda insight is outselling toyota prius, this leads me to believe that the most affordable and green car wins….”
I agree with this statment. I think the Insight at 19K is going to kill the competition.
Another car I am very suprised with is the Ford Fusion Hybrid. I saw an ad for it that said it gets 41mpg city, can go 47mph in electric mode, and has a 700 mile range on one tank. This seems like a game changer for Ford. Very impressive. I think a car like this is going to make more of an impact with the public than a relatively complicated, expensive Volt.
May 2nd, 2009 (11:01 am)IRONY is:
Lyle gets to drive the VOLT mule because he believes in the vehicle and reducing our nation’s dependancy on foreign oil.
Letterman gets to drive the VOLT mule because he’s an idiot and thinks that the car which he knows nothing about is “crap”.
The world is so unfair…
May 2nd, 2009 (11:04 am)NDNS
Real-World data is what grows demand for efficiency vehicles. The impressive MPG numbers being reported for Fusion-Hybrid will likely become a big success story for Ford. The low pricing of Insight doesn’t amount to much without MPG data to support it. Estimates have proven insufficient.
NDNS
That’s true for Volt too. The plug doesn’t equate to much without actual MPG data. Real-World operation revealing true quantity of gas use will go a long way. Without that, it’s still just hype.
NDNS
“No Data, No Sale” isn’t rocket science. You cannot convince a consumer to spend that much on nothing but an estimate. Hybrids have already proven that.
NDNS
May 2nd, 2009 (11:10 am)#67 DonC says:
#32 statik says “Well I guess you could interpret what he said was that he didn’t catch it live”
I interpreted it like StevenU. But I wasn’t trying to find an inconsistency. If you look hard enough you’ll always find one – even if one doesn’t exist. That said he wasn’t as specific as he might have been though he probably didn’t think he was preparing for a deposition.
FWIW, for all those criticizing David Letterman for not being informed, I don’t think being “informed” is a job requirement for a late night comedian. If anything it’s the opposite.
=============================
I appreciate your rebuttal my friend.
/thanks
(=
May 2nd, 2009 (11:41 am)“MarkyMark Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 8:34 pm
I have but one question for the “greenies” on here.How does a volcanoe spewing its guts fall into the reversal of global warming?The Volt in my opinion is meant to “reverse our dependance on foreign oil”
I guess the last “Ice Age” just popped up by itself. We rely on global oil because some tree huggers thought it was a good idea! How about you go and find something we use in our everyday life that does not use oil in its creation or operation! Get a clue, I am for moderation in all things, lets progress not regress in our thinking. If you are a true environmentalist you are then a pro-nuke supporter, right?
May 2nd, 2009 (11:47 am)#73 john1701a,
“The low pricing of Insight doesn’t amount to much without MPG data to support it. Estimates have proven insufficient.”
_________________________
There is info rolling around on the net now, but I agree with your statement. I’m anticipating that the Gen ii and Gen iii Prius advantage shown in EPA tests will be narrowed (but not beaten) in real world examples. Hypermiling techniques will, no doubt, show the Prius (always the advantage to series/parallel over series when hypermiling) at a larger advantage.
Kind of wordy there, but to summarize: I think there will be a smaller mpg gap between the Insight and the Prius in real world driving. Smaller than the EPA tests indicate, maybe only 5% or so.
** Real world = less starts/stops on city cycle, accelerations a little faster than 3 mph/sec, A/C on, highway speeds relatively smooth but in the 70 mph region. (at least, that’s MY real world) [I'm aware of the 2008 testing standards, they're much better, but still not perfect]
*** Same sort of scenario with the Jetta TDI
May 2nd, 2009 (11:56 am)Charlie H, Why don’t you go buy about a case of Preparation H for those raging hemorhoids you seem to be dealing with all the time.
So you had a bad GM car 15 years ago – now you’re determined to pay GM back by posting insipid remarks here every day ? Oh – I forgot – you’re a “greenie” …. I suspect you meant “weenie” , right ?
May 2nd, 2009 (12:07 pm)Letterman statements seem true to me. He said the Volt only goes 40 miles and that is just ridiculous. I totally agree. Notice that Musk’s Tesla S that was on the show goes well over 200 miles, is a true 5 seater and costs only $10K more than a Volt. I think Letterman was very generous in not mentioning that the Volt has a massive pollution motor that easily cancels out any environmental benefit of the Volt. The Tesla model S is definitely the way to go. If/when GM continues building EV they will eventually end up building what Tesla started building from the start. It is obvious that GM is still learning what an EV is all about. Time will show that the Chevy Volt was the wrong approach. Go Tesla.
May 2nd, 2009 (12:15 pm)# 71 Brian “… Ford Fusion Hybrid. I saw an ad for it that said it gets 41mpg city, can go 47mph in electric mode, and has a 700 mile range on one tank. .. I think a car like this is going to make more of an impact with the public than a relatively complicated, expensive Volt.”
________________
I agree. This car can have a huge impact. Until mass manufacturing lowers the costs of plug-ins and people begin to realize the hybrids at 47mph, or 47 miles range or even 200 miles of electric range, are still 100% gasoline powered.
Edit. The Volt will ultimately be relatively simple compared to parallel hybrids IMO.
May 2nd, 2009 (12:32 pm)#76 (me) correction:
I meant to say:
“always the advantage to series/parallel over parallel when hypermiling”
May 2nd, 2009 (12:32 pm)I am shocked that the Volt is a gasoline powered car. I thought it was a true electric. I think I will wait for the true electrics, like the SmartForTwo, BMW Mini, Nissan, Tesla S and others that will be powered by battery only. It just makes more sense. I can’t believe all those Volt owners will be paying extra for lugging around a huge/heavy gasoline motor and gasoline tank on every trip just for peace of mind. Not very efficient vehicle in my book. As soon as the gas engine comes on (and yes it will come on automatically whether you like it or not) than it takes away any gains from use a battery only (sort of self-defeating design). Basically the Volt is just like any of they Hybrids on the road today. It is just a Hybrid and not an EV !!
May 2nd, 2009 (12:37 pm)#73 john1701a
NDNS comments
———————————————
You should plan on buying a Volt so that you can provide this data. You already have the done the front end work (website, data format, habits, etc.). Of course, the new Prius would have to share the driveway and commutes with the Volt.
May 2nd, 2009 (12:39 pm)Yes People. The Volt is a Hybrid. It does have a GASOLINE MOTOR! (and a small t-shaped battery)
H-Y-B-R-I-D
May 2nd, 2009 (1:11 pm)I am quite surprised he even responded. Not that it matters, nor will it make a difference.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:11 pm)#77, Guido,
GM isn’t on the ropes because I had a bad experience; GM is on the ropes because millions of people had a bad experience. People preferred domestics but GM has driven them to the competition. It has long been a part of Business 101 that it’s cheaper to keep a customer than to win him back. GM didn’t bother to keep customers.
GM knowingly built crap. In a just world, GM would already be in Chapter 7.
Want to persuade me to buy a car from this GM that you think is so worthy? Build a better car. So far, GM hasn’t. In 2003, and I still get a laugh out of this, Lutz said GM quality was just as good as anyone else’s. Talk about a crock; go look at a recent CR. Lutz couldn’t have been more wrong. In his term, GM share has continued to tumble; he’s all show and no go. And that’s the kind of guy GM hires to run the place.
Compare and contrast with Ford; Billy Ford had the humility to realize that he wasn’t the best guy for Ford and that Ford needed a shakeup from outside the corporate culture, so he brought in Mullaly. That’s a hard thing to do but he did it. Ford is still solvent. Billy Ford and Alan Mullaly may save Ford, yet.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:14 pm)Dave flat out got it wrong. Too bad for the Volt.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:15 pm)Hard financial lessons are likely to be learned by many who will barely afford a vehicle that is BEV only. In that respect, perhaps non-EREV audiences ought to pay very strict attention to the situations brought about in the first year of ownership for BEV’s,
Let those whom can afford a 6 thousand dollar repair bill be the first to buy BEV’s when they go out of warranty in one to three years.
Hopefully, all BEV problems are truly allowed to be openly discussed in those first several years of production.
Sell me a vehicle that has
**************************************
Ironclad WARRANTIES,
**************************************
backed by a company who has a
proven record
of honoring it’s warranties for
a hundred years.
While idealism for the future of the environment is clearly now widely held, the addition of
**************************************************************************
technical PURISM (only one type of technology thank-you),
**************************************************************************
will get you into very, very, expensive trouble when you plunk down tens of thousands of bucks, and there is not a well established infrastructure of dealerships there to honor warranties “bumper to bumper”. I’d buy *only* a GM Voltec vehicle. I won’t take a risk on anything else whatsoever!!
Dan Petit Austin TX
May 2nd, 2009 (1:17 pm)#78 Twenty Ten :
!> WARNING <! : Mild sarcasm advisory
You’re right, how could we all be so stupid?! There’s no way I should be buying something with such a nasty ‘massive pollution motor’ – I’m going to pass on it and keep driving my SUV! You won’t see me buy a new car until there’s a middle-class-affordable pure EV with a 200+ mile range available down the street next to one of the dozen 5-minute charging stations in town.
Do you really think there will be tens of thousands of $50K Model S’s produced 2, even 3 years from now, available for purchase and service in every state? That’s the _bare minimum_ of supply needed for you to be able to preach that ‘everyone should go buy a Tesla’. Tesla should be praised for their effort, but they still may not have produced 1000 vehicles by the end of 2009. The company is not America’s solution to energy dependency, no matter how much money Elon Musk pours into it.
Do you own a Tesla? Are you on the list of people that have purchased one and are waiting for delivery? If not, why aren’t you?
I’m currently one person with one car. If I owned a Model S, I would be forced to purchase a second vehicle for longer trips. Do you think it’s better for the environment to have _TWO_ vehicles manufactured for these 170 lbs of human? The Volt is an all-in-one 15-year stopgap solution and is NOT the enemy of Tesla enthusiasts, no matter how disillusioned you are.
NPNS!! =D~~ LGTVWOTR!
May 2nd, 2009 (1:26 pm)#81 Megan Fox
Are you looking for a short distance electric car? If so, buy one, there are plenty of them to choose from. If you are waiting for an affordable, long distance BEV because you sometimes go for longer trips then you need to wait or buy a Tesla. If the rare longer trip is important to you I ask why is it better to haul a large battery around when you usually do not need it rather than a small ICE that you usually won’t need? That large battery might power three Volts and end up allowing more cars to be EV MOST of the time rather than one [driving fewer miles than the three Volts] all of the time. Till battery technology improves energy storage and supply/availability bring down size and cost an E-REV platform on many vehicles running gas free most of the time seems to me to be the way to go.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:28 pm)# 81 Megan Fox
No, you weren’t wrong – the Volt is FAR different from all other hybrids on the road today. It is highway-capable for up to 40 miles without using a drop of gas! You only start using gasoline if you drain the battery. It is NOT a parallel hybrid! It’s an EV with an onboard gas-powered electrical generator for extra range if you want it!
You were not disillusioned – my conservative MPG will equate to 314 MPG averaged over a year. That’s allowing for weekly 65 mile trips (which I don’t actually make) and a dozen 160 mile trips across the state for visits with family (actual number is more like 6). I will be going months without putting or using gas in the tank! I’m excited, and you have reason to be excited, too!
NPNS!! =D~~
May 2nd, 2009 (1:32 pm)Just a couple of commits:
1.. First Consumer Reports is today’s equivalent to the Literary Digest of 1936.
2.. When has any company opened up so much of their development process so early? Did Toyota giving rides to people 2 years ago for their next gen Prius. Not supporting GM here, but they have stayed very consistent with their message. November 2010 was stated in 2007, and it still is being said today. This is a development program; that means things happen in steps. Because they cannot demonstrate something to the public today is no indication that they cannot do it, or they are behind schedule, they have not met that milestone of the program yet.
3.. I like Elon Musk, and think he has done a very good job selling his product. But, in the back of my head, I cannot help but to compare him and his company to Eclipse Aviation Company. They just went from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7. Sad, I thought they could real change the small aircraft world.
May 2nd, 2009 (1:46 pm)Here’s something much closer to what Maximum Bob wanted to build in the first place:
First look at the 2010 Fisker Karma
http://www.greencarvideos.net/2009/04/first-look-at-the-2010-fisker-karma/
(Range depletion mpg probably falls squarely in the “who give a sh*t” category)
May 2nd, 2009 (1:54 pm)#92 add
…category, for the $80,000 luxury sport sedan green image crowd)
May 2nd, 2009 (2:25 pm)It is highway-capable for up to 40 miles without using a drop of gas!
___________________
Hence the need for real-world data. There’s a big difference between being “capable” and actually delivering that routinely.
NDNS
May 2nd, 2009 (2:35 pm)#45 Tim,
“Mass adoption of the EV is about ONE thing…
RANGE ANXIETY!”
————————-
I’m going to add that there is one other factor. Years ago GM termed the EV1 impractical because they couldn’t make the battery pack last the lifetime of the vehicle. And a large battery pack replacement is extremely expensive!
In the Volt, GM is going to great lengths (battery pack cooling and heating, battery managment software, using only ~50% of the pack’s energy) to ensure the battery is reliable, and has discussed offering a 10yr/150,000 mile warranty.
I believe this is almost as important as the RANGE ANXIETY issue.
It will be interesting to see how other OEMs deal with this issue (for instance, BMW only leases their electric Mini).
May 2nd, 2009 (2:43 pm)#77 guido,
LMAO!
I don’t even read comments from the weenie, but I know exactly what you are referring to.
I think the woman in the latter part of this video, named Nancy Hogan, may be his sister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiKIG0HphIs&feature=related
May 2nd, 2009 (2:57 pm)Kyle- just FYI, but I don’t think Mr. Lutz would appreciate being called an “ex-Marine”. The proper term is ‘former’ Marine. As a former Marine myself the term “ex-Marine” is like fingernails on a chalkboard.
Semper Fidelis Mr. Lutz!
We’ll miss you when you retire.
May 2nd, 2009 (3:20 pm)340 mile range, first 40 on electricity.
KISS.
NPNS.
May 2nd, 2009 (4:15 pm)Keepin’ it simple in the real world:
30/30/40
30 mile AER/ 30 mpg/ 40 thousand dollars
May 2nd, 2009 (4:54 pm)30/30/40 would have been ok if the volt had kept it’s original concept appearance and they would have put in enough ICE for decent performance. Once they watered the design without significantly lowering the price, the car ends up being impotent in all categories.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:06 pm)Carcus #99: I could just as easily say 40 miles AER, 50 MPG, and $30K.
Until we see an actual sticker attached to a Volt in the showroom, anything else is just an exercise…. If you do not like the design, that is your choice. Go and buy something else that meets these specs in the price range you have set for yourself.
john1701a: Your NDNS is really quite funny. With everything you have said, and your wild love affair with your Prius, I just really can not even imagine you going into a Chevy dealership to purchase a Volt.
Enjoy your new Prius. And by the way, I demand actual performance data to be delivered to this blog by an authorized rep from Toyota on the new model Prius, or else I can then assume that it is all lies and vaporware!
Is this going to happen? I really doubt it. So do you see how silly your constant demands for actual performace data sound about the Volt? In Nov, 2010, when the sales brochures are in the showrooms and the cars are available for test drives, we can debate this at length………..
You really have to let it go.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:15 pm)Condoleeza @ 83 says: Yes People. The Volt is a Hybrid. It does have a GASOLINE MOTOR! (and a small t-shaped battery)
——————————————————————————
Well, not really.
The Chevy Volt is an Extended Range Electric Vehicle. It is not a hybrid in the sense that most people understand the term – ie. a gasoline driven vehicle with an electric motor assist.
The Volt is closer to being a full electric vehicle than it is to a hybrid like the Prius. That is why there is a distiction being made here.
The Volt runs 100% of the time on its electric drive unit. It only uses the gasoline driven generator to produce electricity for the electric motor if you you go beyond the 40 mile range of the batteries.
If you don’t drive more than the 40 mile range, as is the case with almost 80% of Americans, then you don’t use ANY gas. You could drive indefinitley without putting gas into the Volt. The range extender is there only if you need it, and to prevent RANGE ANXIETY, which is a big issue with pure electric vehicles (BEVs).
With an ordinary hybrid, you must put gas in it on a regular basis because it is basically a GASOLINE engine driven vehicle.
In addition, the Chevy Volt will get FAR better “gas” mileage. It will be on the order of hundreds of miles per gallon calculated on a yearly average basis, assuming one needs to drive more than 40 miles now and then.
Thus, the Chevy Volt is in a whole different universe of motoring than converntional hybrids, and so calling the Volt a hybrid can be confusing and misleading to people who are new to all this.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:38 pm)Dave was gracious. The Volt is a sorry excuse for a company that built an EV with THREE times the range over TEN years ago. My money is on the Tesla, at least I have a real hope for getting the EV I’ve been waiting 20 years for.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:50 pm)Off Topic
I see that Tesla is going to install a new charge control unit, a TS-70 which will allow it to charge at up to 70 amps and 240 VAC single phase. This UL listed device (J1772) is discussed in this informative article.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/sae-hybrid-standards-20090423.html
May 2nd, 2009 (5:52 pm)Leon @ 103 says:
“The Volt is a sorry excuse for a company that built an EV with THREE times the range over TEN years ago.”
—————————————-
Leon why don’t you spend some time learning about the Volt and the EREV concept. Then perhaps you can know why the 40 mile number is so important. Honestly you comment reaps of stupidity. Please don’t post here unless you have something of value to say. This is not to say you can’t disagee with comments made here only your statement is born out of complete ignorance. Learn about EREV and why it is important.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:58 pm)#91, Ron Hall: “When has any company opened up so much of their development process so early? Did Toyota giving rides to people 2 years ago for their next gen Prius.”
They did not. Nor did they do so with the 1997 Prius (Japan only) or the 2000 Prius (world) or the 2004 Prius. And, yet, they produced a car, all the same. Apparently, press releases and fulltime spokesperson babble aren’t essential parts of the development process for Toyota.
Same deal with the Insight and Honda.
May 2nd, 2009 (5:58 pm)i#100 carcus1 says
30/30/40 would have been ok if the volt had kept it’s original concept appearance and they would have put in enough ICE for decent performance. Once they watered the design without significantly lowering the price, the car ends up being impotent in all categories
————————————————–
It pains me, but it seems so
May 2nd, 2009 (6:02 pm)I will never buy a pure electric vehicle. Any elctrica car I buy MUST have a range-extender like the Volt.
Completely aside from the obvious range anxiety issues that ordinary electric vehicle have, I have anothe issue – power outages.
I live in the Pacific Northwest where we have windstorms in the winter that often cause power lines to go down, often at night, when I would be charging my electric car.
With the Chevy Volt, I would have NO worries about this. I would alsways know that, pwer or no power, I would ALWAYS be able to get to work the next day. The range extender would take car of this.
I have said this before, the Volt COULD be my only car. Any pure electric car would have to be an “extra” car that I keep next to my real car that is ready to go all the time.
Running out of battery power and not being able to charge up the batteries anywhere, anytime is a REALLY BIG ISSUE folks.
The Chevy Volt handles this brilliantly with its small, efficient, gasoline driven range extender, which by the way weighs FAR less than any amount of extra batteries some dimbulbs are clammoring for in order to get more range. Completely aside from the cost issue.
Batteries are EXPENSIVE and if you want to pay for them and have a pure exlectric vehicle, then go buy the $110,000 Tesla.
May 2nd, 2009 (6:11 pm)p.s. You’ll always have range anxiety with the Tesla, and have to stay within a certain distance from your home.
May 2nd, 2009 (6:15 pm)#68 Tim gave a link to
“Automotive Market Research Perspectives on Selling “Green” in a Try-to-Survive Market”
—————————–
Thanks Tim. It is well worth the time to read it.
May 2nd, 2009 (6:16 pm)#97 Mike
Thanks for pointing out the disfavor the word ex-Marine has for us Marines. Actually, Mike, although I finished my 4 years, 1 month and 15 days of active service on 8/26/1966 I still consider myself a Marine. I don’t even like the term former Marine. Once a Marine, Always a Marine. That is the front license tag on my car. That is the way most Marines feel. There is no ex or former Marines, just Marines. Some of us just are not on active duty. But, I know what you meant and I thank you for that.
And thanks to Bob Lutz for speaking out, also. Go GM, Go Volt and Go Bob Lutz.
May 2nd, 2009 (7:14 pm)#92 Mike says:
Kyle- just FYI, but I don’t think Mr. Lutz would appreciate being called an “ex-Marine”. The proper term is ‘former’ Marine. As a former Marine myself the term “ex-Marine” is like fingernails on a chalkboard.
———————–
#111 N Riley said:
Mike, Thanks for pointing out the disfavor the word ex-Marine has for us Marines. Actually, Mike, although I finished my 4 years, 1 month and 15 days of active service on 8/26/1966 I still consider myself a Marine. I don’t even like the term former Marine. Once a Marine, Always a Marine. That is the front license tag on my car. That is the way most Marines feel. There is no ex or former Marines, just Marines. Some of us just are not on active duty. But, I know what you meant and I thank you for that.
And thanks to Bob Lutz for speaking out, also. Go GM, Go Volt and Go Bob Lutz.
=============================
Mr. Riley….someone is dating themselves.
I was going to say though, even ‘former’ Marine probably burns his ears (and yours and Mike’s). “Kyle” should fix that, (=
I have a friend who served for quite a long time, and learned pretty quickly he didn’t like it when I mention it in ‘past’ tense…he didn’t say anything to me about it, I could just tell.
/I just refer to him as a Marine now, lol.
Side note: This is one crazy thread, we are all over the place. I guess there is not really much to discuss specifically…but I’m guessing the words ‘Lutz’ in the title has got us all up in a frenzy.
May 2nd, 2009 (7:19 pm)I love Bob Lutz’s style. I don’t know what his impact on GM was but he was a great communicator.
The fact that he publicly mocks man made global warming histeria is one example of his straight shooting style. He is a smart no nonsense marine.
May 2nd, 2009 (7:23 pm)I have not heard about any Tesla owners suffering from Range Anxiety. I think they can go at least 220 miles on a charge. Obviously most of people that aspire to be a Volt owner suffer some form of Range Anxiety Disorder and should seek counseling before your purchase. Maybe you guys just need to brush up on your basic math skills. This Range Anxiety is nothing more than an overblown factor and probably just a marketing ploy.
EV for Dummies. (aka Math for Dummies). Pick up a copy.
- The Bus Driver
May 2nd, 2009 (7:28 pm)Lutz can start being all cocky when his company is producing a product. All the Volt is right now is a novel idea, and until it’s mass produced and we see them on the streets, he should keep quiet considering how GM is fairing.
May 2nd, 2009 (7:49 pm)“The fact that he publicly mocks man made global warming histeria is one example of his straight shooting style.”
But if you mock something that is correct, it only makes you look like a complete moron. Lutz shouldn’t comment on things he knows nothing about. Leave science up to scientists.
May 2nd, 2009 (7:57 pm)#144 Do The Math
I could not agree more. Range anxiety is a just marketing term. Anyone that can read a gauge shouldn’t have range anxiety. If you have any reasonable range of over 100miles like most EVs, range anxity is a myth.
Just another example of fear based marketing.
May 2nd, 2009 (8:18 pm)#114 Doer of Math:
‘I have not heard about any Tesla owners suffering from Range Anxiety.’
That’s kinda funny. Have you heard from many Tesla owners? It’s likely they don’t complain about range anxiety because they probably have about 6 other cars, on average. That, and if they travel more than 200 miles, chances are good that they’re flying there.
Carbon footprint analogy alert : Is the average Tesla owner going shopping for a smaller size, or really just trimming the nail on Sasquatch’s pinky toe?
NPNS!! =D~~
May 2nd, 2009 (8:22 pm)#117 Brian
‘Anyone that can read a gauge shouldn’t have range anxiety.’
Right, but why even bother looking at the gauge? Just look in the manual where it states the 250 mile range. If you want to travel farther than that, you’re not going. That was easy! No anxiety!
NPNS!! =D~~
May 2nd, 2009 (9:42 pm)A bit off topic , but something most people here would like to know about .
Top speed is governed at 60 mph , the price is in European currency , the driving range is 500 km with lithium battery , no fuel required , plug in electric .
http://www.alibaba.com/product/jiayuanev-11993404-0/Happiness_Angel_Electric_Vehicle.html
May 2nd, 2009 (10:08 pm)On
http://www.alibaba.com/product/jiayuanev-11993404-0/Happiness_Angel_Electric_Vehicle.html
+++
That’s 310 miles on $12,735.
To carte blanche say quality issues will keep China out of the U.S. electric car market is , well, somewhere between foolish and asinine. Take a look at where some of the highest quality electronics and batteries are made right now. (Consider the macbook, iphone, and hundreds of other examples).
I’m not saying the Happy Angel is it. I’m just saying . . it’s coming.
May 2nd, 2009 (11:16 pm)You really have to let it go.
__________________
Pointing out that the claims are nothing but estimates will only end when they are replaced by something real-world. Even a brief test-drive is better than the *nothing* we have now.
With the pre-production model just a month away, way should we have to wait to the end of 2010 for the first data?
May 3rd, 2009 (8:38 am)116 Edward G.
If science was left to the scientists. Albert Gore would have to stop spewing his chicken little non-sense.
I would take Lutz’s knowledge over Gores in a minute.
May 3rd, 2009 (9:40 am)Yeah but that was not polite to do, man made global warming is not a subject for polite discussion. I myself am agnostic on the subject (the manmade part), but it does insult believers when he says stuff like that.. and no matter what you are not going to change their minds, faith is like that.. based on deep emotions.
But it is true a Marine should always be given some leeway..
………………………….
#113 nuclearboy Says:
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:19 pm
The fact that he publicly mocks man made global warming histeria is one example of his straight shooting style. He is a smart no nonsense marine.
May 3rd, 2009 (9:41 am)Would a tripod really have been that much of an investment? If you are going to shoot a video having the camera shaking all over the place is very distracting.
May 3rd, 2009 (10:38 am)Without a way to anchor the tripod, you’re better off with a human.
May 3rd, 2009 (12:21 pm)124, Herm, “The fact that he publicly mocks man made global warming histeria is one example of his straight shooting style. He is a smart no nonsense marine.”
Then why is it that no one at GM will give a straight answer to “What will it cost?” Lutz is The Man In Charge, isn’t he? The answer is simple, “The MSRP on the Volt will be X and after that, there is the $7500 rebate, so your net is Y.” No one ever does that. EVERY answer is nebulous and can’t be parsed for before-or-after rebate.
—
Also, you and #123 need to learn the difference between “faith” and “science.” The science of Global Warming (Anthropogenic Climate Change) goes back over 100 years. Is Al Gore over 100 years old? Does Bob Lutz have some sort of degree in Climate Science? Atmospheric Physics? As far as we can tell, especially by GM’s continually declining market share, Bob Lutz’ sole skill is the relentless aggrandizement of Bob Lutz.
Al Gore is not practicing religion, he is calling our attention to an important effect that scientists discovered. This is something that good leaders do. We can do something about Climate Change BEFORE it becomes a serious problem or we can stick our heads into the sand (or, in some cases, up their…) and wait until climate change overwhelms us.
Your choice.
May 3rd, 2009 (2:51 pm)Its all hysteria supported by scientist that want to keep getting grants.. makes making a living much easier. Of course I’m sure there are scientists that truly believe in it, but I have my doubts.
CO2 samples from millenia old ice samples do not support the theory, CO2 concentration lags climate change.. variations from the Sun is what drives climate change.
At one time phrenology, the ether and eugenics where all reputable scientific beliefs.. Faith and science can be mixed together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
” Faith is the confident belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. It is also used for a belief, without proof.”
………………………..
#127 charlie h Says:
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Also, you and #123 need to learn the difference between “faith” and “science.” The science of Global Warming (Anthropogenic Climate Change) goes back over 100 years.
May 3rd, 2009 (4:21 pm)Let’s face it, Dave has become old, cranky and just not that funny anymore. I always felt he had an inferiority complex because of Jay Leno. Maybe it’s because he got buried in the ratings from Jay.
May 3rd, 2009 (4:27 pm)#128 Herm
‘At one time phrenology, the ether and eugenics where all reputable scientific beliefs.. Faith and science can be mixed together.’
Good argument! The next time you get the flu, I’ll get a barber, a young priest, and an old priest and we’ll get you fixed right up! I hope you’re not still mad at Andreas Vesalius for his evil work. Science is a never-ending pursuit that moves forward – sorry if you’d rather sit still.
If I skip ahead to the asymptote of this discussion and mention Hitler, will the arm-chair scientists put down their tea leaves and shut up?
May 3rd, 2009 (6:42 pm)#128, Herm: “Its all hysteria supported by scientist that want to keep getting grants.. makes making a living much easier. Of course I’m sure there are scientists that truly believe in it, but I have my doubts.”
Most of the money expended actually goes to MEASUREMENTS. These measurements are equally available to those who think digging up fossil fuels, burning them, releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and, consequently, heating the earth are related and to those who have other theories.
The fundamental science is fairly simple and the basic effect of CO2 is easily measured. The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is also easily measured (we have systematic direct measurements back to the Fifties), the contribution of CO2 from fossil fuel combustion is also fairly simple to evaluate (fossil CO2 has a characteristic radioisotopic signature) and can also be estimated from coal, oil and gas extraction and combustion figures.
One never sees works describing these primary effect fundamentals as flawed, in fact they are just about inassailable. Everything else, however, can be argued… what’s the effect of convection? Will there be more clouds? Will the Earth have have a higher albedo, as a result and lower temps? But all these questions are related to secondary effects. The primary effect – heat trapping – is quite solid science.
The fossil fuel industry has spent their money wisely, seeding enough doubt and stirring the pot well enough to get legislative delay. That’s all they want. Well… delay and your money.
May 3rd, 2009 (6:45 pm)#128, Herm: “CO2 concentration lags climate change.. variations from the Sun is what drives climate change.”
You neglected to say, “To date, CO2 concentration lags climate change.. variations from the Sun is what drives climate change.”
Never before in history have we dug up sequestered carbon and pumped CO2 rapidly into the atmosphere. We are in the middle of a brand-new experiment. There will be change, it will be rapid and it is very likely to be unpleasant.
May 3rd, 2009 (7:07 pm)I do so love this broken record. I think, though, that we skipped track 4, wherein someone pops up claiming that all this climate change stuff is crap, because ‘climates change all the time’ and it’s no big deal. Hilarious.. that is my favorite argument.
I suppose the ‘sun variations’ theory is right.. I mean, it’s spring, and it’s raining, which is supposed to happen. Solar activity has been low this month, which would explain why weather is pretty much normal. Incidence of normal conditions proves normality, right? Isn’t that faith? er.. science?
May 3rd, 2009 (8:52 pm)Charlie H–
With all due respect, GM is on record, twice, stating that they would subsidize the $40,000 Volt. About 18 months ago they stated that they would subsidize the Volt to the same extent that Toyota subsided the first couple years of the Pruis–50%, which has been confirmed by quotes from the, then President of Toyota, and Japans Prime Minister. A few months later, in GM congressional hearings, a congressman asked whether he would be able to “afford a Volt” The response was, “the good news, sir, is that GM is going to subsidize the cost of the Volt.
So, Charlie H, even if GM subsides the Volt at 25%, instead of Toyota’s 50%, then the sticker price goes down from $40,000 to $29,995. Add the federal tax credit available for the first 500,000 purchasers of $7,500, and you are now paying $22,495 for a base Volt, and under $30,000 for a top mack daddy model.
So, hopefully you will be in the market for one of these high torque baby’s when they come out. Will be more fun than any car you or I have ever driven.
——
Too many people listening to junk science. There is absolutely no reliable information that support that the earth is warming. Most of the respectable science points, actually, to a cooler earth. To those of you who are 45 year old or up, you will remember that was the warning of the extreme green folks back in the seventies. Maybe they should have stayed on message.
May 3rd, 2009 (9:52 pm)I agree with letterman. 40 miles ain’t enough. Everyone i talk to…lots of blue collar workers i work with agree….we want to be able to go to the mall and back on nothing but electric power….so i want a 100 mile range at the very least…150-200 miles would be awesome!
I think the average “joe” wants a lot more than 40 miles.
And the average “Joe” wants this Volt afordable..if its over $30,000 it won’t be.
And the revised sheetmetal is very boring to look at.One more thing…many of the “Other” car manufacturers are already bragging they can beat the 40 mile thing….i guess time will tell.
May 3rd, 2009 (9:55 pm)#134, detfan writes, “With all due respect, GM is on record, twice, stating that they would subsidize the $40,000 Volt.”
First, I’d challenge you to find a link for that. Lutz did, in an off-hand way,. remark on shielding the cost of the Volt from the customer but that was before the approval of the $7500 tax credit (so I get to subsizide it, instead of GM – lucky me) but he said subsidize without giving a price for the vehicle or subsidy. You are reading facts into his ruminations that aren’t there. Since that time, they have repeatedly talked about prices ranging from the mid $30s to $40K (and it was after Lutz’ remarks that Wagoner said $48K in an interview), also without giving assurance that this was pre-tax credit.
You are reading your own dreams into this. And GM doesn’t have the cash flow or resources to subsidize anything. If they get this to the market at all, it’s a minor miracle.
Your analysis of climate is as flawed as your understanding of Volt prices. There are signs aplenty that the earth is warming. Check out the National Snow and Ice Data Center for a preliminary helping of bad news about the Arctic ice cap. You’ll need to understand the concept of “albedo” to fully appreciate exactly how disturbing the retreat of the ice sheet is.
Then take a trip to NASA’s GISS or NCDC data centers to see what the trends are. They’re not good. Or Britain’s Hadley Center.
Then you might attend a gathering of actual climate scientists. You’ll be amazed at what you’ll hear. You might even learn something; you’ve certainly got plenty of things to learn.
May 3rd, 2009 (10:16 pm)nuclearboy #123
Absolutely, marketers know hot air best.
May 3rd, 2009 (10:57 pm)I am sorry to tell you that this Volt over $35K will be likely a complete failure. Wait till other car manufacturers (including the Chinese already making an existing car similar to the Volt offering at $22K).
May 4th, 2009 (8:57 am)If any green freaks truly believed in global warming crap, we would be building nukes as fast as we possibly could but they don’t support that either. It takes massive amounts of power to run a modern technical society and solar cells and windmills are not going to cut it but they will cause massive capital redundancy in generation facilities until, if and when, batteries improve exponentially in capacity and cost efficiency.
Lutz should go to Leno – all you libs and greenies can get a reflection of the quality of your own thought from Letterman. How you like yourself?
The Volt is expensive and has an uncertain future but thanks to Lutz and GM for getting it this far; let’s keep our fingers crossed for its success and the termination of foreign oil unfair trade practices.
Some prominent posters to this site seem to have a transference animosity to Mr. Lutz. What’s the matter? You hate your father and can’t confront it? The guy has accomplished a lot in his life, why not be gracious and keep your venom to yourself.
Glad this post is too late for anybody to see.
May 4th, 2009 (10:01 am)#139, Shawn Marshall, “If any green freaks truly believed in global warming crap, we would be building nukes as fast as we possibly could but they don’t support that either.”
Many greenies have decided that nukes are the lesser of two evils and endorse them. I’m ambivalent.
Only people ignorant of the actual nature of the electric power industry think that nukes don’t get built because of greenie opposition; the real enemy of nukes is their capital requirements. Natural gas plants can be built in far less time for far less capital; that’s where the new construction goes.
In fact, wind turbines are far more capital-friendly; they have a short lead time, tie up money in very small chunks and can start producing power for revenue quickly.
A nuke requires $10 billion (not all up front) and takes 10 years to produce the first watthour for revenue.
Solar power – and there are now types (gas-turbine integrated or compressed gas or heat storage) that will produce power after dark – also have the potential to be more capital-friendly than nukes and there’s no unresolved long term waste disposal storage problem, either.
May 4th, 2009 (6:52 pm)Charlie H #140
Well said.
Additionally, just like we had the capacity to cut out 15-20% of our unneeded gasoline consumption when it wasn’t dirt cheap we have the capacity to reduce our current energy usage 15-20%. Of course baseline goes up but meeting that is not nearly as much of an issue as it was made out to be for the last election. By wasting less and implementing energy saving technology, much of the increased demand can be mitigated for some time.
I’m pretty ambivalent about nuclear too. I just think the idea that we must have it to meet growing demand is overblown. The only real need will be if we decide that all or most coal plants must be shut down in the near future (10-15 years). This added power burden can only be met with nuclear at this time.
May 4th, 2009 (8:40 pm)Charlie H– These conversations are old, and probably cannot be found again. You can probably find the GM testimony in Congress though if you have any research ability. My readings on the subject have nothing to do with Lutz.
You can say I’m wrong, but I know what I’ve read, and researched, and I know that nobody at GM is disputing what they’ve said nor saying otherwise. To NOT do what Toyota did to get a foothold would be foolish anyway.
May 4th, 2009 (8:45 pm)Charlie H– there is no global warming. No matter how many junk science sites you send me to, they are all bunk. Even with ice sheets breaking away in Antarctia the Cap is still growing. Earth temperatures are cooling. There is no dispute to that. Unless its with you.
May 4th, 2009 (8:58 pm)It might make a lot more sense to draw a correlation between man-made carbon dioxide levels and rising temperatures if the temperatures hadn’t decreased in the last decade.
Studies show that average global temperatures have decreased as much as 0.2 degrees Celsius over the last ten years — just as human activity is thought to be taking its biggest toll on the planet’s climate.
The decrease is small, to be sure, but, say skeptics, it disproves the argument that rising man-made CO2 levels are the driving force behind global warming.
““The Earth’s climate has always alternated between warming and cooling phases,” said William Happer, who served the Department of Energy under former President George H.W. Bush. “In the medievel warming period, when the Norse settled Greenland, the Earth warmed as fast or faster than it has since 1800. … What should world governments have done in the year 900 A.D., when people noticed that the climate was warming and the ice was melting in southern Greenland?”
May 4th, 2009 (9:03 pm)detfan,
It’s a real wonder where you get any of your alleged information. The NCDC, NASA-GISS, the National Snow and Ice Data Center, the Hadley Center as “junk science?” You couldn’t be more thoroughly uninformed about climate science if you tried. Get a clue.
And get a clue on Volt pricing… http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23793222/page/2/
May 6th, 2009 (3:28 pm)David Letterman:
-1- adjusts his tie and coat button during the same time interval during his monologue….how entertaining
-2- is an idiot …. a pinhead even.
-3- the show is nothing more than extended commercial for movies coming out.
And you watch the show why?