GM first announced its intentions to build a plug-in hybrid Saturn VUE in late 2006, months before revealing the Volt concept. All along we have heard development of those plug-in VUEs has continued and remains on track. Although initially launch was expected in early 2010, the most recent plans state the car would come in in 2011, after the Volt.
However, GM’s newly released viability plan indicates that all support for the Saturn brand will be terminated by the end of 2009. This has led some to believe the plug-in 2-mode hybrid program will die along with it.
Not so fast.
“The plug-in technology survives!” says GM spokesperson Brian Corbett.
“It will be applied to a vehicle offered by one of four core brands,” he says. “We’ll be announcing which one in the not too distant future.”
The drivetrain for the vehicle features GM’s 2-mode hybrid system which uses two powerful electric motors, one for low speed and one for high speed assist and a complex software control system. The plug-in version has an added lithium-ion pack that could allow up to 10 miles EV and overall twice the fuel efficiency of comparable non-hybrid models.
This entry was posted on Thursday, April 30th, 2009 at 5:49 am and is filed under Brand, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Apr 30th, 2009 (5:57 am)This is still pretty exciting. If GM could put some of these cars out maybe they could start making a profit. In any case I can’t wait to see where this all goes. I hope that they cut enough and don’t end up like TWA…
Twice the MPG and a 10 EV mode would be nice, but I’ll believe it when I see it. They don’t have any strong hybrids at this point. My Escape is only getting 32 mpg now, I’m not sure how the EPA comes up with 34. Does anyone get 34 with their FEH?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:22 am)I hope they cancel this. A PHEV-10 isn’t worth the hassle of plugging in.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Prius ………………… 228
Vue PHEV-10 ………. 264
Vue HEV ….………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
With the Volt, you have to plug in every night, but you only have to go to the gas station every 3 months. With a PHEV-10, you have to plug in every night and go to the gas station every week.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:23 am)Originally Daimler-Chrysler, GM and BMW developed this transmission to fit in place of existing transmissions in larger RWD cars.. and there is a heavy need for something like this. Are the three manufacturers sharing one transmission?
This design bypasses the supposedly disadvantage that hybrids have in highway mileage.. yet Toyota seems to be doing pretty good in that department.
The Volt bypasses all this with the idea to optimize the car to meet the daily needs of 80% of the public, the other 20% may have to suffer in mileage a little bit.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:26 am)The Saturn Vue plugin concept is very good. IF they could get this in a showroom, it should sell.
Squeeze this into one of the brands you are left with.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:29 am)Escape mileage, here is a good website to peruse:
http://www.hybridcars.com/gas-saving-tips/maximizing-mileage-ford-escape-hybrid.html
According to Ford, the use of accessories carries these mpg “penalties:”
Radio = .8 mpg
Rear Defroster = .8 mpg
Headlights = .9 mpg
Fan on High = 1.3 mpg
Using A/C at 60 mph = 1.2 mpg<
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:30 am)Dave G Says:I hope they cancel this. A PHEV-10 isn’t worth the hassle of plugging in.
I disagree, if the price is right, it will be worth the hassel for many. Saving gas and oil, even in small portions, is worth it for our country right now (assuming the price is right).
Can GM create the PHEV-10 at a reasonable cost? That is my concern.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:32 am)As a precursor to Volt, a hybrid Saturn made sense.
Assuming, however, that the Gen 2 or Gen 3 Voltec system allows a 30- or 40-mile all-electric range for SUVs and other “aerodynamically challenged” body styles, the market demand for this hybrid could be reduced considerably.
Undoubtedly, price will be a big factor.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:32 am)DaveG run your spreadsheet again, but this time include a comparable size SUV in the list.. it is obvious that if you choose this vehicle size it will consume more yearly gas.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:35 am)I really don’t see GM killing the Aura Hybrid and Vue Hybrid if Saturn is spun off. Thanks to Government Motors, I think they’ll keep those lines alive, discounting them until a spun-off Saturn Boutique Retailer™ will stock them.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:40 am)I was under the impression that they didn’t just delay this, it was put on hiatus (as was practically everything else)….as in no further product specific work was being done indefinitely until further notice.
Now with the death of Saturn, I’m thinking it is in ’super hiatus,’ lol.
This Brian Corbett, to his credit does say, “The plug-in technology survives!” …not this vehicle surivives in its form, just that the tech “will be applied to a vehicle offered by one of four core brands.” which could mean, or be interpreted as virtually anything.
The wrap from Brian is, “We’ll be announcing which one (brand) in the not too distant future.”
—I understand this to mean is that basically, we are waiting on a press release on which brand will get a future press release announcing a future concept.
/can’t wait
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:45 am)Statik # 10 says,
I understand this to mean is that basically, we are waiting on a press release on which brand will get a future press release announcing a future concept.
LOL Gosh that is funny Statik. But I agree. It will be a press release with a lot of words on it, but really nothing to ever show from it.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:53 am)Dave G #2: “I hope they cancel this. A PHEV-10 isn’t worth the hassle of plugging in.”
I disagree completely. There are many families that need or prefer an SUV, but do not put that many miles on it. This vehicle would be perfect for my wife. She only drives about 8 miles per day normally (work is very close to our home for her), so her gas consumption would still drop to almost zero. But then we still have the convenience of an SUV for weekend projects, etc.
So I could very easily see a Volt for me and a Chevy or Buick “Vue” for her.
I also think this is a vehicle that should be offered with different battery pack sizes for optional mileage AER. If you are good with 10, the price is lower. If you need 20 or 30 mile range, it is just a difference of the battery pack size you are willing to pay for.
I hope GM follows through on this one!
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Apr 30th, 2009 (6:57 am)Like Saturn, Chrysler too may be dead. As I posted the other day, the UAW came to the table and made the concessions needed to save Chrysler from bankruptcy. Bondholders? Looks like not so much. Interesting, since many of them are sitting on billions in TARP funds themselves. I hope the bankruptcy judge gives them squat, and sends them a smoke signal quick. Otherwise, GM will go the same way, and all my friends here will not have the UAW to blame. Well, at least they shouldn’t in all fairness.
AP Source: Chrysler lender talks break off, company headed for bankruptcy protection
By TOM KRISHER and BEN FELLER
Associated Press Writers
DETROIT (AP) — Talks between Chrysler LLC’s lenders and the Treasury Department to reduce the automaker’s $6.9 billion in secured debt and keep it out of bankruptcy protection have disintegrated, a person familiar with the talks said early Thursday.
Chrysler’s fate was in the hands of about 40 hedge funds that hold about 30 percent of its debt. Although four banks holding 70 percent of the debt had agreed to erase it for $2 billion, the hedge funds were holding out for a better deal.
To entice the hedge funds into going along with the banks, the government on Wednesday afternoon added $250 million to the $2 billion that the banks had settled for and gave the hedge funds a 6 p.m. deadline to work it out, two people briefed on the talks said.
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On topic, look for the two-mode as a Buick. With Buick’s quality reputation at an all-time high right now, it makes sense to push new tech through that brand name. The Saturn Outlook already has a Buick clone, and the VUE body styling seems visually similar. Seems like a natural fit.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:18 am)Lack of objectivity.
It reveals a lot about intent.
Why is this data now missing?
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Volt-20 ……………….. ???
Prius-20 ……………… ???
Prius ………………… 228
Vue PHEV-10 ………. 264
Vue HEV ….………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:22 am)This is good news… It is about time for more bad news.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:24 am)#2, Dave G, “I hope they cancel this. A PHEV-10 isn’t worth the hassle of plugging in.”
10 Miles works for some of us. I’d be more likely to buy a 10 mile PHEV than a 40. I go less than 10 miles far more often than I go 40. With a 40, I’ll be paying for range I’d only rarely use. With a 10, I’m getting maximum value out of my investment.
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The big question is, Can GM sell it for a profit? The two-mode hybrid is reportedly an extra $10K to produce. It is also said to scale down poorly.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:30 am)Ugh…WHY DOES GM CONTINUE TO MAKE STUPID DECISIONS? How many of these do they think will actually sell? It’ll cost $50,000 and nobody will buy. Electric? People will laugh and say, “no it isn’t.”
I think this will be looked at like a ploy, and shifting technology from one dead company to a “viable” one looks bad also. Focus on what is supposed to save GM…the Volt, and other EVs.
I heard on the radio today that people are not buying Detroit autos to “stick it to Detroit for making horrible vehicles…” and I tend to agree. This thing is crap and there isn’t really a benefit. Save the air?–not really. Oil independence?–not unless you live on an island one mile in diameter. GET WITH IT…!
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:33 am)#2 DaveG
Based on your calcs it looks like it would save 120 gallons/year
Vue PHEV-10 ………. 264
Vue HEV ….………… 380
If gas is $4/gallon thats $480. I’m sure some people would appreciate that.
Now if people drive only 10 miles per day, or 20 miles but plug in at work, their savings would be even more.
I guess its another option/choice. There will be a lot of choices eventually. I dont see a problem w/continuing this product.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:38 am)Dave G #2
I’m also going to jump on the I disagree bandwagon. My commute is 7 miles each way all highway. I’ve been using my wifes prius lately and I get horrible mileage 35 mpg in the winter because as soon as the car starts I’m driving at 70mph. I realize I could drive a little slower but I don’t want to. If I had a 10 mile AER I could do all of my local driving on pure electric (charge at work). Only on the weekends when I go a few hundred miles would I ever need gas. If they offered something like this in minivan/suv form I would buy it a lot quicker than I’d buy the volt.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:40 am)I don’t know if this has been discussed, but GM for years has had daytime running lights (mostly turned on headlights @ 70%) on all of it’s vehicles. Will these be on for the Volt or will they be off to conserve power?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:47 am)#20 Aaron
I assume, definately yes (its the law in Ontario). I would also assume the DRL’s would be LED.
Just assumptions though.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:50 am)Maybe the Plug-in Vue could be directly absorbed into Chevy product line i.e. just re-badge as Chevy. I think it could fit in just below (in size) the TrailBlazer.
The TrailBlazer seems a little dated anyway, so maybe it should be replaced with Vue. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116016
The Vue out sold the TrailBlazer (on March 2009 figures) by 3 to 1.
3,488 copies of Vue sold
1,083 copies of TrailBlazer sold
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=3&docid=53412
The TrailBlazer fits the image of gas guzzling SUV designed for road ability – even the name says this. The Vue fits a more efficient and road designed image.
So I say, for what little I know, just absorb the Vue into Chevy and ditch the TrailBlazer.
Just waiting for Nasaman to see this thread….
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:55 am)Trailblazer is kinda big. I was thinking the Chevy Traverse or Buick Enclave.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:57 am)Plug in VUE (or similar) is the best “green” program GM has.
Ford is now pretty consistently saying that the plug in Escape will get about 120 mpg city and 80 mpg hwy when driven less that 30 miles total in between recharges. This is on a proven vehicle and only a 10 kwh battery.
As I’ve posted before (with sources) this system has huge potential for “software tweaking” so that it operates in the most efficient “blend” possible between electric and ICE drives.
GM could actually have an advantage over Ford in this arena because the GM drivetrain has significantly better towing capacity. The plug in vue could really be a no compromise SUV that at the end of the year averages (total miles driven / total gallons purchased) 70 mpg and more (if you don’t do many long trips).
Not to mention that it requires no special chargers in the garage, and has a much greater chance of reaching 10 years battery life than an EREV (batteries will be subject to much less abuse) IMO.
P.S. Ford has also mentioned up to 40 miles electric only, but you’ve got to creep around under 40 mph.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:03 am)Well, the Saturn Vue and Cadillac SRX are on the same platform.
GM has already announced the 2-mode SRX.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/09/gm-to-build-2-mode-hybrid-cadillac-srx/
Therefore, to me it would seem only logical that the plug-in Vue would become the plug-in SRX.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:09 am)The only electric car they got that makes money.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:23 am)It was designed for large cars and trucks, the original tech came from a hybrid bus.
If you want to scale it down, hard to the beat the Prius\Escape design.
$10k?.. it does replace a large automatic transmission, that is not cheap either… I wonder how they come up with these numbers..
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#16 charlie h Says:
April 30th, 2009 at 7:24 am
The big question is, Can GM sell it for a profit? The two-mode hybrid is reportedly an extra $10K to produce. It is also said to scale down poorly.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:33 am)#13 MarkinWI Says:
April 30th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Like Saturn, Chrysler too may be dead. As I posted the other day, the UAW came to the table and made the concessions needed to save Chrysler from bankruptcy. Bondholders? Looks like not so much. Interesting, since many of them are sitting on billions in TARP funds themselves. I hope the bankruptcy judge gives them squat, and sends them a smoke signal quick. Otherwise, GM will go the same way, and all my friends here will not have the UAW to blame. Well, at least they shouldn’t in all fairness.
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AP has a expanded press release now, here is the linkage:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AP-Source-Chrysler-lender-apf-15081146.html?sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:43 am)As I speculated before on us hitting bottom with the stock market…I’ll take a shot and say Chrysler lives on and Fiat becomes partner.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:44 am)#14 john1701a says
“Why is this data now missing?”
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The word “data” is plural, so you have to say “Why are these data missing?”
But as to why, I have no idea, just enjoying word games.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:55 am)You know…I have been thinking..Just because GM is changing the number of names it has, does not mean the models that are uniquie to the outgoing ones are gone..Sky / Solstice will likely be rebranded under Caddy / Chev, saturn vue can be the next Equinox or alternate one…the Torrent, Montana SV6 are available as Chevy’s already, the G8? a new Chev…
On the Other side…Here is a review that is actually quite different.. Its for a cobalt, and I think that Capt Jack Sparrow wrote it…Or was a major influence…
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:56 am)I’ll pile on Dave G’s comment as well. A PHEV10 could be a great thing for many people. In fact the most recent DOE white paper had PHEV10s and PHEV20s constituting the overwhelming number of electric cars in 2020.
I don’t want no stinkin PHEV10 — it’s EREV or bust — but in reality a PHEV10 would work. Most days I don’t go more than 10 miles, and certainly not without going home or to the office long enough to charge again.
I am not unusual. If you look at the California city study you’ll see that a good 20% of drivers don’t go further than 10 miles, and another 30% or 35% don’t drive further than 20 miles.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/13/autobloggreen-qanda-peter-savagian-talks-about-studying-driver-be/
Not to pick on Dave’s number, but there is a danger in using averages.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:57 am)I’m sure the technology on this one will work as advertised too. But just like the Tahoe Hybrid and Silverado Hybrid, someone at GM will decide that this can only go in the ‘top-of-the-line’ trim level, and it will push the price of the vehicle well OVER $40K – - – instead of placing it in a base model and keeping it about $30K or less.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:58 am)make the saturn as chevrolet VUE simple thing and sell it. the greatest fear now is the chrysler bankruptcy which could bring ripple effect across the world.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:59 am)Obama has a news conference at 12:00 on Chrysler if anyone is interested. The gov’t actually bend and upped the offer to bondholders to 2.25 billion on the 6.8 outsanding..still no dice. They are squabbling over relative pocket change, although I think the gov’t really wants them in bankruptcy…and so do the debt holders.
In a related matter (I linked to this in the last thread), GM-bondholders came back with their ‘plan,’ which isn’t exactly the 10-odd percent the gov’t envisioned for them. They want 58%…and for the gov’t to get 0%.
So…bring on the GSB Obama, and lets move past this already. It would be nice to put this drama to rest.
/its moving day
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:09 am)#12 Jim , I feel that your family auto needs is close to a large portion of US family’s needs , I live 9 miles from work and the wife works 18 away, and a 10 mile plugin 4 door SUV(I can plug-in at work) and a Volt would be the perfect fit for me and reduce my gas needs by 90%. I look forward to see what shakes out in the next two years . GM and Chrysler may go belly up but this technology is here to stay it just makes to much sense .
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:12 am)SUV PHEV20’s and soccer moms.
Many soccer mom’s will drop the kids off at school, run a few errands (hopefully going to the gym and buying cleaning supplies/beer
) and be home by 10a.m. This gives 5 hours of “opportunity charging” at home before a 3 pm departure to pick the kids up from school and heading to the soccer field.
Point here being that many people will get more than 20 miles of AER daily driving out of a PHEV20.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:13 am)#23 k-dawg
or the GMC Acadia
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:17 am)SRX plug in makes sense as a higher price could be charged.
I would like to see them take the Equinox/SRX/VUE style and put Voltec drivetrain in it – a 30 mile range would fit many driving needs
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:18 am)Saturn Vue + 30 electric miles + Generator = sold.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:19 am)Following up on Carcus1’s comment about getting more than 20 miles AER out of a PHEV20, here is an interesting little article about Nascar driver Karl Edwards and some Ford engineers who drove a Ford Fusion 1445.7 miles on a single tank of gas.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/ford-hybrid-goes-1400-miles-on-single-tank-of-gas/
Very cool, especially since they didn’t use hypermiling techniques. If you plug these numbers into DaveG’s spreadsheet you’d get different results. Of course this is not realistic. But it is fun to play with the numbers.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:19 am)#24 correction,
AER reports for the Escape PHEV have been from 20 miles to 40 miles. (under 40 mph) . I don’t know that ford has made an official guestimate, yet.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:25 am)Dave G (or anyone else):
What are the actual numbers behind your “typical driving pattern”? I know you use this same spreadsheet often and have probably defined the term before, but I could not find it.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:26 am)Chrysler going through bankrupcy is basically an “Automotive Canary in a bankrupcy coal mine”
Tha Administration will see how fast they can turn it around, and if there are any immediate impact, because GM, if it can be done, will go the same route in 30 days. Test it with a small company, its a prototype run, if it works, then do it to GM, celebrtate the 4th of July with a new GM..
If it fails abysmally..then you allow greater leeway.
CH 11 for Chrysler is using them as a ginea pig…
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:26 am)Saturn 2-mode hybrid is a very good car. But, by using the two mode hybrid system with its 3.6 V6 engine, I thing GM may be heading to the wrong direction (again).
Hybrids are first of all about improved fuel economy. According GM itself, the new Chevy Equinox and GMC Terrain seem to dwell very well with the 2.4 l engine. So, in order to establish these crossovers as the leaders in fuel economy in this segment, GM should instead use two mode hybrid system with a of their family 2 small engines (2.0, 2.2 or 2.4 l). This would make a lot senses.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:38 am)They used boost-glide, and I think that is a hyper-miler technique. It would have been fun if they had made it into a race, with a bunch of different hybrids.
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#41 DonC Says:
April 30th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Very cool, especially since they didn’t use hypermiling techniques.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:40 am)Buick
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:41 am)meanwhile The UK’s first four-seater electric car which can travel up to 70 miles without recharging has been unveiled. The cars are being assembled by a six-person team at Flitwick in Bedfordshire. Six people, people, and what is GM doing with hundreds of engineers? Delaying that’s what!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/beds/bucks/herts/8026380.stm
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:47 am)#
Evil Conservative Says:
April 30th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Saturn Vue + 30 electric miles + Generator = sold.
Count me in …. It would replace my Cavalier (best mpg in Household and daily commuter) and my Ford Freestyle (weekends and Home Depot). Saving me Gas and Insurance.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:48 am)Chrysler is history. Yeah they may keep the name when they come back, but everyone knows the pile of ashes they left behind.
GM you are next.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:48 am)#45 – Jim Mbongo
I agree! Two years ago, I thought Saturn should offer two engine options for the 2-mode; an efficient 4 cylinder and a V6 option. That would satisfy two groups of customers – those who need the space, but need high fuel economy and those who need the power and fuel economy to pull a boat (e.g., nasaman).
This makes a lot of sense to me.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:57 am)Man GM got hammered about the Volt on Letterman last night, anyone catch it? I think Dave called it a complete joke. Went on and on about how GM screwed up the EV1.
They rolled the Tesla S on stage to wild applause. Wow, that thing is a real beauty. I’m not anti volt at all, the more options the better. But if price was no object I think we’d all have deposits on the S right now.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:03 am)No need to worry about anything “green” getting cut. The latest plan puts the company totally in Government control so these types of decisions will no longer need to be made based on business considerations but rather on political considerations. So “Green” no matter how unprofitable, will move forward.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:04 am)Elon Musk on Letterman 2009.04.29 (HQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiJJKBbg4TA
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:14 am)Mark @ 52 says…
Man GM got hammered about the Volt on Letterman last night, anyone catch it? I think Dave called it a complete joke. Went on and on about how GM screwed up the EV1.
They rolled the Tesla S on stage to wild applause. Wow, that thing is a real beauty. I’m not anti volt at all, the more options the better. But if price was no object I think we’d all have deposits on the S right now.
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Ya know, the Tesla S maybe a real beauty and, but I really think that even if I could afford it…
The range anxiety would kill me.
I suppose if I could afford it then I could use it just as a second “toy” car.
Not very practical.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:23 am)“Man GM got hammered about the Volt on Letterman last night, anyone catch it?”
I did. I kind felt sorry for him. His comments were so uninformed and off-the-cuff that it made him look like a real boob.
Also, at the end on the segment after they rolled out the S, Elon was trying to say something about the car and Dave just cut him off. All very silly and completely forgettable, IMO.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:34 am)#56 V=IR,
“Also, at the end on the segment after they rolled out the S, Elon was trying to say something about the car and Dave just cut him off.”
____________________________
I think Mr. Musk was in on the joke, trying to tell Dave he was going to get shocked — part of the “don’t fear the electric car” joke theme Dave had running through most of the interview.
V=IR, Unfortunately (fortunately?) there is no formula for jokes.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:35 am)Jim F,
I totally agree with you. This could be the best way to sort this out. But if GM doesn’t have enough money to develop both versions, they should then do the 2-mode with their 2.4 l engine.
Here is what Leftlane news says about this engine after they reviewed the 2009 Chevyu Malibu 2LT witn 2.4l engine: ‘First, let’s talk about what doesn’t go: Gasoline. On a highway trip averaging about 70 mph, we averaged a hybrid-beating 39 mpg, even with the air conditioning on.
Wow. A verified 39 mpg on the highway. Maybe Rick Wagoner was our copilot. Regardless, color us impressed.
That’s mostly due to the six-speed’s gearing, which keeps the small motor spinning at a relaxed 2,000 rpm at 70 mph. The Malibu’s reasonably smooth, 2.4-liter, dual overhead cam four-cylinder is a peaky motor, though, which means that highway passing or hills almost certainly requires a downshift to access the power reserves.’
I think GM has another winner here.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:38 am)#2 DaveG
I am just now getting to look at the comments. Yours struck me as one I needed to comment on before reading the remaining comments.
I tend to disagree about a plug-in with 10 mpc rating. Anything that increases mpg is good. The only thing that is bad about it is the increased cost. We don’t know what that might be. Based on GM’s other mild two-mode hybrids, it could be more than enough to make it, as you say, not worth the hassle of plugging-in. In that respect I can sort of agree, but who are we to say what cost is justifiable to someone else. What may be a high cost for the option of a plug-in for those 10 miles may be quite appealing to someone else.
GM needs as many vehicles as it can get to compete with the Toyotas and Hondas of the world. This is one step in that process. If they can put that plug-in on the market in a Malibu or Vue size vehicle at a small mark-up in price and get as good mileage as the Prius, I say go get them GM. People will buy the vehicles. I hope.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:49 am)All these designs feature a “sweet spot”, which is dependent on your duty cycle ( driving patterns ) and the cost of gas. Add in your specific personal needs ( how many kids, haul golf clubs, need to tow a boat or trailer, etc. ). Their are LOTS of “right” answers, depending on how all these factors happen to converge over the design lifetime of a vehicle. The game is knowing where these will be when the vehicle launches, generally two to three years out from program kick-off. That’s whats so tough about the car business – you gotta make huge bets, too. Always easy to criticize in hindsight. That’s where a gas tax ( to keep the price somewhat more predictable ) would help tremendously – but Ospenda would rather crap-and-trade.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:51 am)statik #28: Interesting read. But it looks like GSB for Chrysler.
fritz #48: This is a BEV with no range extender with a top speed of 60 mph. Just about anyone with a decent set of tools and being handy could do this in their garage for a lot less money (That L16,850 is almost $25,000!). I almost did it myself two years ago, with an estimated cost of about $10,000. But I do not want a tinker toy. I need a real car from a real manufacturer with a real warranty. It has be able to go on the highway, and I do not want to be worried about range anxiety. That is why I am waiting for the Volt.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:52 am)#58 Jim Mbongo – I am not completely surprised about the great fuel efficiency of the Malibu. The relentless bashing of GM on its green creds is without merit. I rented a Cobalt last fall for nearly a week and it averaged 36 mpg during that time. That’s about what you can expect from a Prius doing real highway driving. The new Equinox is rated at 30 mpg highway with just an ICE also. GM seems to me to lead the pack in fuel efficiency. But can they overcome the negative image perpetuated by Toyota fanboyz?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:54 am)@Dave G 2
” hope they cancel this. A PHEV-10 isn’t worth the hassle of plugging in.”
I agree!! This type of hybrid tech is already old.
Having multiple hybrid technologies competeing is like having 8 branded names to one company…….hmm……..that sounds familiar.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:55 am)I wonder how many credit default swaps are held on Chrysler bonds???
Now for the news…
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:55 am)The letterman video with Elon Musk….
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/30/video-dave-meet-elon-elon-meet-dave-lets-all-hate-the-volt/
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Apr 30th, 2009 (10:56 am)Yes, Letterman had no clue on the generator and Tesla’s owner Elon could have at least given GM credit for the E-REV.
LQQked at Teslas website after the show. Man those batteries get H-E-A-V-Y with longer and longer range.
But I have to agree to a point…Letterman commented that if GM had been evolving the EV-1 from the time it was created there wouldn’t be all the plants closing, bail outs…etc…. Batteries would have been cheaper and the cars into affordable mass market. GM could have owned the Auto Industry. But that’s history and now is now.
Time to move on…lets go GM Have an energy shot Fritz, drop 35 pounds and lets go. The huge ship should have been turned around by now. Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way Dammit.
Did they fire the A Hole yet that said the Volts price would depend on the price per gallon of Gas…
Build the CONVERJ and get Lutz to design sporty E-Revs.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:04 am)25 BillR……… “Well, the Saturn Vue and Cadillac SRX are on the same platform.
GM has already announced the 2-mode SRX.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/09/gm-to-build-2-mode-hybrid-cadillac-srx/
Therefore, to me it would seem only logical that the plug-in Vue would become the plug-in SRX.”
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You’re right, Bill. And we all need to recall that the almost identical SRX & the VUE have the same drive train: the CTS’ acclaimed 3.6 V6 + a compact but very powerful transmission (2 separate electric motors @74Hp ea = 148Hp). The VUE plug-in retains this same drive train but with a battery, which can easily be upsized to give this CUV an AER of 20 to 40 miles. Chevy could offer a 10 mi AER version, Buick a 25 mi AER version and Caddy a 40 mi AER version.
The result? Vehicles that can do everything a CUV can do (haul lots of stuff, tow at least 3,500lbs, etc) but use LITTLE or NO GAS in normal commuting or errand running — a miracle of American automotive engineering!
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:07 am)#66 vincent says about the EV-1, had GM continued with it ” Batteries would have been cheaper and the cars into affordable mass market. ”
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I used to think that, but now I have softened to “maybe so, maybe not.”
The thing is that battery technology has its own learning curve. What has changed in the time since the EV-1 involves underlying science as well as development. I am not sure how much the time for gaining this additional scientific knowledge could have been compressed —- sometimes things take as long as they take. Remembering The Mythical Man Month, the famous book by Fred Brooks Jr, I realize that making a project bigger does not always make it faster.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:07 am)Obama out now.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:09 am)#13 MarkinWI
Maybe because, unlike the UAW, the bondholders would be better off in bankruptcy? I thought that the cash offer was a good one, but they have a better idea of the value of Chrysler’s assets in a liquidation (or reorganization) than I do. Keep in mind that bankruptcy law puts them at the head of the line. They get 100% recovery before anyone else gets a dime.
By the way, the tarp recipients accepted the government’s offer. It’s the smaller secured creditors who didn’t. (In other words, the government forced the tarp recipients to take an offer that wasn’t in their own best interests.)
In case anyone wants to hear what they had to say:
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2009/04/30/statement-from-non-tarp-lenders-of-chrysler/
Also, a letter to the WSJ by one of the individual creditors:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124104444819970529.html
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:11 am)#51 N. Riley says “Yours struck me as one I needed to comment on before reading the remaining comments.”
You and everyone else! Rarely has there been such a consensus. He usually looks at things like I do — he probably lives in my neighborhood (only kidding) — so it’s a rarity for me to disagree. Except about whether the Volt has a transmission. LOL. On this point it’s interesting to note that Doc Lyle said it didn’t have one but the engineer from Autoblog said it did – Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
#55 Dave K (on why he doesn’t want a Model S)
I likewise have no interest in the Model S. Given the price and technology of batteries today it doesn’t make any sense. If I were willing to spend that much on a second “toy” car — which I’m not because I’m cheap — I’d rather get a Fisker Karma. Cooler inside and out, its E-REV technology makes it more practical.
Outside of the Aptera, which weighs 1700 pounds and has a Cd of .15, none of the other BEVs being offered — Th!nk, Tesla, Mitsubishi — make much sense. They’re either too limited in power (Th!nk and Mitsubishi) or too expensive (Tesla).
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:14 am)Surgical bankruptcy it is for Chrysler…30-60 days is the goal(which would set all kinds of records). Of interest, apparently GMAC takes over for Chrysler FInancial. Also, there is supposed to be 4.5 billion alotted for exit financing.
…more details to follow I’m sure
/GSB in the house
He also says:
–GMAC gets more money
–”if you buy a car, hope its American”
–more programs/wider for financing (dealers/RV/consumers) cash for clunkers, incentives, etc. etc.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:17 am)#35 Statik
With the GM bondholder’s proposal, the government keeps its debt as debt. I don’t think that’s a bad offer. Especially since the government has said repeatedly that it doesn’t want to manage the auto companies.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105121817871157.html#mod=article-outset-box
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:17 am)Carcus1 #54-
“Elon Musk on Letterman 2009.04.29 (HQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiJJKBbg4TA ”
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Man Letterman is pompus asshole. He now loves the EV-1 and thinks GM should have kept building it at a great loss, well back in those days, DID HE LEASE ONE?? He pisses and moans about the lack of electric cars and thinks it should have been available years ago. He then goes on to say the Tesla Roadster is pretty cool and took one for a test drive, but DID HE BUY ONE?? No, and he can ACTUALLY AFFORD ONE! Then he busts the balls of the big 3 American brands for not supplying him an electric car, even though one of them DID and HE FAILED TO LEASE IT. Of course, in the new zeitgeist of hating all things American, he failed to mention that NO OTHER CAR COMPANY IN THE WORLD HAS OFFERED AN ELECTRIC CAR EITHER, including the world’s largest, but that doesn’t matter to him, the blame for the lack of a viable electric car is squarely the fault of the Detroit big 3 and them only. The elitist butt wipe let it slip that his newspaper is delivered miles away and that’s all the Volt is good for, getting his paper. Did he mention his $5,000 no risk refundable deposit that he has put down on the Model S? NO!
David Letterman is an ASS HOLE!
Sorry, had to vent.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:18 am)I don’t think any hybrid has ever yet saved enough on fuel to justify the cost on fuel savings alone. They all have an increased cost. People do buy them though. Over a million are on the roads, according to the last report from the EIA, with hundreds of thousands more being sold each year.
PHEV10’s will sell well in any part of the continent where the customer understands what a block heater is. Plugging in is a habit, not a hassle, in some areas.
A PHEV20 would almost be enough for a full commute for me. If the gas engine had to kick in for the last 3 miles each day, that’s fine. A regular workout would be good for the system.
A PHEV10 would still work. Plugs are available at most businesses in my area. Put any kind of plug in on the road. I’m ready to buy.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:28 am)This would be a great ’second’ car, the weekend and long trip vehicle, to supplement your Volt or BEV commuter.
The Volt is a great concept but I don’t see myself using it for a several hundred mile trip where I need to haul all my gear, or tow a boat, or carry bulky items, etc.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:29 am)#73 Laura M said:
#35 Statik
With the GM bondholder’s proposal, the government keeps its debt as debt. I don’t think that’s a bad offer. Especially since the government has said repeatedly that it doesn’t want to manage the auto companies.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105121817871157.html#mod=article-outset-box
======================
I think your right, completely. I don’t disagree that it is not a ‘bad offer’ myself.
Depends I guess from what perspective you are looking at it. I think the goverment’s offer to them was a little insulting, but only relatively speaking, as the gov’t doesn’t have to do anything it doesn’t want too, and GM should be in bankruptcy where there would be no negotiating at all, lol
I think the gov’t is not looking for ‘bad offers’ here though…they want good to great offers. After today, we’ll see if they scared them enough. Certainly the Chrysler bondholders will net a larger percentage on the dollar I would think than the GM guys would I think. They debt load is considerably smaller, and Chrysler has retained some pieces/property that have good value.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:29 am)The problem with the Volt that Letterman exposed is they took a huge risk with building an E-Rev with a low 40 mile electric range. The popular culture (ie. the buying public), will only hear “40 mile range” and tune out. “Extended range” and “generator” will only confuse 99% of the public (techies like us excluded). When they hear GM makes a 40 mile EV, Tesla makes a 300 mile, Ford makes a 120 mile, Nissan makes a 180 mile, etc. who do you think they will choose?
GM is betting on their marketing term “range anxiety” to sell the Volt but for most of the public its a non issue. That’s why GM needs to make a high range BEV to go alongside the Volt. Otherwise they are going to get killed by all these long range BEVs. Letterman’s audience reaction is a perfect example of this, and that’s who are buying the cars.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:40 am)Ironic moment of Obama’s speech:
Paraphrase (because I wasn’t writing it down or PVRing it): “We have determined that Chrysler Financial would need a significant amount of capital to continue, and GMAC Financial a independent bank that finances GM vehicle has agreed to step in.”
Yeah, they stepped in alright.
A ‘independent’ institution that just happened to take 6 billion dollars to stay solvent, that got bailed out even though they didn’t meet their own benchmark for government mandated bondholders swaps. Which GM then got a extra billion from the gov’t (that they didn’t have), to give to GMAC to make the legal requirements for status. And now that same ‘independent’ GMAC is currently doling out over 17 billion dollars worth of newly minted government backed stimilus loans to GM customers with credit rating in the low 600s to artifically sell cars that people can’t rightly afford.
….and oh yeah, now they get more money to continue to offer the same ‘independent’ service for Chrysler
/I love press meetings (and days like this) … but don’t we all? lol
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:52 am)Musk might have been going to add that there was a Gov. tax incentive that would mitigate the cost of the S series. Musk is certainly a cool one as David Letterman went on his long winded rant.
Being a product of the Houston oil machine I think the powers that be are looking at electric cars with great trepidation. How can they profit from this technological marvel and control it once let out of Pandora’s Box? How can the auto manufacturers make $ from machines that are ultra low maintenance? Think of all the Auto Zones, Pep Boys and the like who thrive on the cranky nature of ICE machines. Not to mention the fuel infrastructure. Carcus1 also noted this.
A ten mile electric ride Vue is kind of a bone being thrown out there to the simmering upset sheeple with ever growing pitchforks whilst keeping ICE on line and the OIL INDUSTRY and auto infrastructure happy. I think they know that the electric cat is out of the bag and it is a matter of, just when the game is over.
A chat with a big Exxon shareholder who was gloating over $150 a barrel oil some time back drew a serious face when I said that he should enjoy it now as people are angry and will not forget pumping their hard earned dollars into the coffers of OIL companies. I said that while the Volt is the baby of the old auto regime the push to develop truly capable batteries and cars are really taking shape and only a matter of time. Mentioned TESLA and others. The look on my friend’s face said a great deal!
Have to go as the Offshore Technology Conference has a great party to go to. Come Zeus! Come Apollo!
Carcus1 The 66 Lemans was bought by my Dad in 66 from my Grandfather’s Pontiac Cadillac dealership in Smithville, TX. My first car. Was rusting already when Dad picked it up. She resides in a barn waiting… .
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:53 am)#66 vincent
I think it’s a little unrealistic to expect Elon Musk to give GM credit for anything. They’re competitors. I’m sure he’s thrilled anytime the Volt get’s bad PR.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:56 am)Herm @ 3,
Huh? As someone who drives a Prius regularly, I’d have to say that the hybrids performs like a regular car on the highway — and the mileage at a steady speed is much better than stop-and-go. Stop-and-go doesn’t hurt the mileage as much on a hybrid but, since you can’t create energy with regenerative breaking, the mileage hit from stop-and-go is smaller.
I think the core reason the Prius gets such great mileage is that it’s a lightweight and aerodynamic car. The hybrid system does a lot for the efficiency, but if you were to put a conventional drivetrain into the car, my gut feel is that the mileage would still be good enough that the smug couldn’t be eradicated.
Anyway, I’m really looking forward to 2011-2012. I’m just going to start test-driving PHEV’s and BEVs and see which one meets my needs the best. My current list of vehicles to try is: Volt, Focus BEV, Plug-in Prius, Plug-in Vue, Plug-in Escape. That’s gonna be great! I just wish the CUVs were less tall so I could reach the roof-rack easily… I’m short and opinionated — what can I say.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:56 am)Pointless…another waste of brain power and money. Focus on Voltec and move toward all-electric. These overly complex hybrids are another symptom of an auto industry run by people who have lost their way. There is a Talmudic expression that fits here. It is like you are trying to push an elephant through a pinhole. Even if you could figure out a way to do it, why would you want to? Hybrids are complicated and the payback is not worth it.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (11:59 am)#37, Carcus1: “Many soccer mom’s will drop the kids off at school,…”
Why? Sure, that happens at our schools but every one of them is served by SCHOOL BUSSES. Every day, at every elementary school, there’s a long line of idling vehicles (driven by parents that can’t obey either the signs or the parking lot supervisor we had to hire to keep kids from getting run over by Suzie Sawker, who is paying more attention to her cell phone than her driving) waiting to drop off kids and busses pull up half empty.
Why don’t the kids just ride the bus?
We don’t need a Volt to reduce CO2 emissions or our dependence on foreign oil, we need a gas tax high enough that Suzie puts her kids on the bus and we make the other adjustments necessary to reduce oil consumption
My kids? They walked. Including the two that had the trombone and tenor saxaphone to carry.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:12 pm)#78 Mark Mattingly,
>> The popular culture (ie. the buying public), will only hear “40
>> mile range” and tune out.
I agree, that is a highly plausible risk. Which is why I think that if GM’s marketing department is wise, their mantra will be “40 miles electric, unlimited range!” from this day forward.
All future Volt ad campaigns henceforth should dedicate a sentence or three to emphasizing the ‘unlimited range’ angle. This would surely avoid much of the public’s uninformed range-anxiety concerns.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:12 pm)I used the link that several of you posted to watch the Letterman show with musk and my thought is “was Letterman paid for that commercial”? To me it looked and sounded an awful lot like an infomercial.
I find it hard to believe that Letterman is that ignorant on the subject!!!
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:14 pm)PS: on Letterman. Here Musk sits a man who has actually created real, innovative usable things with a great deal of work, artistic creativity and risk all with his self made fortune poured in quite large amounts. Such people are rare. Too rare!
I think that Letterman is used to being in control. Well duh! Sitting next to Musk must have been a bit daunting as he sits daily with true vapor heads all the time. So to make things even and safe and in control in Letterman’s deeply seated insecurity he let loose a long raspy pointed monologue. Thus the resulting short circuited vapor headed Letterman Treatise on electric cars and the US auto industry minus the other powerful miscreants.
Had Musk put a prank electric shock device on the wheel…! Would Letterman have laughed at that???
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:18 pm)Obama harshly criticized some hedge funds and investment firm creditors during his speech, I am sure they were the ones with the default swaps or whatever. Looks like he may be going after Wall Street greed. We will see what happens in that showdown.
Anyway, I think my wife would like the new Fiat 500…
http://www.fiat500.com/eng/
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:18 pm)#87 LWesson,
>> Had Musk put a prank electric shock device on the wheel…!
>> Would Letterman have laughed at that???
Why stop with a prank gizmo? Wouldn’t take much to set off ‘ol Dave’s bad ticker. Not that I’d advocate such a thing… perish the thought.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:20 pm)@DaV8or 74
“David Letterman is an ASS HOLE!”
lol…..
That’s what he gets paid for. So he does his job well.
lol….
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:25 pm)@charlie h 84
“Why don’t the kids just ride the bus?”
Because some parents don’t want their kids surrounded by foul mouth ghetto slang no manners having never been taught by their momma and have no respect for anyone kind of kids. That’s why.
Ever ride in one recently?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:31 pm)#77 Statik
I think the government is better off with the bondholder’s deal, than GM’s plan. They don’t take any haircut. The big “loser” is the UAW. But the bankruptcy code doesn’t prioritize the UAW. If the government is going to, then I think the bondholders have every right to call them on it.
I assumed that GM is worth more than Chrysler. (They have to have a better chance of being viable after a reorganization? And there’s no need for Fiat.) But you would know more than I do. And you’re right about the debt load. But no one has offered the GM bondholders cash or even debt–just percentage equity in the new GM as a class, so it’s irrelevant unless they do.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:39 pm)#84 charlie h
I completely agree. This is one of the reasons I prefer a gas tax to an SUV tax or cafe standards. It doesn’t just steer people towards more fuel efficient vehicles. It reduces unnecessary trips, encourages car pooling, telecommuting, etc. And it does this in direct proportion to how much gas their car uses.
#91 CaptJackSparrow
Admittedly, this is something I don’t know very much about, but, if you don’t mind my asking, how do you protect your kids once they’re actually at school?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:46 pm)Back to the main subject of this post. I am a little late but look at those links :
http://www.motorpasion.com/opel/presentacion-del-opel-antara
http://www.motorpasion.com/tag/chevrolet+captiva
and observe that the Vue is in Europe either an Opel Antara or a Chevrolet Captiva.
Regards
JC NPNS
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:49 pm)Charlie H @ 16,
After watching Lyle’s test-drive video, I think the Ford guys’ criticism (I don’t have a proper citation) of the Volt’s serial hybrid system may be right on the money.
Their criticism was as follows: a smaller battery (with fewer cells) can’t deliver the current (kw) that they require to climb hills, even it if does have the quantity of energy (kwh) required to move the car for 10 or 20 miles. So you have to get power from the gasoline engine, in order to maintain the acceleration. Given that, the Ford guys figured that they’d just use something like the hybrid transmission that they already have — I guess they think the efficiency-penalty that comes from the transmission is less than the efficiency penalty for taking rotation -> electricity -> rotation. So, they said they’d making parallel plug-in hybrids xor BEVs, but not a serial plugin hybrid.
This argument does assume that there’s really only one kind of battery cell available, and that you’re only scaling the pack by adding or removing the cells… But, given that these batteries are new to the automotive market, it strikes me that this is probably a true assumption.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that there may be some real engineering reason that a Volt-20 or Volt-10 might not be as feasible as the Volt-40.
After watching the video of test-drive, I’m guessing that the production car will start the gasoline engine during that steep part of the test-track. I’m more inclined to call Volt a PHEV than an ER-EV now — if it’s going to start and stop the gasoline engine based on the position of the accelerator, it’s a hybrid. That’s what the Prius does. The Volt will probably be the most desirable hybrid that will be available in late 2010 / early 2011 and hopefully it’ll be a Prius killer — but if I can get the gasoline engine to start by whumping on the gas pedal, it’s a hybrid.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:51 pm)@LauraM 93
“….how do you protect your kids once they’re actually at school?”
You weigh the options and determine which one a parent can control or ommit. At school the administration has a 1 teacher to 22 students and on the playground it’s the staff to watch and listen. Admittedly there is really not much else a parent can do in this scenario.
However, in the school bus it’s one driver to 48 kids (granted it’s not always full), BUT, theoretically the driver has 100% attention to the road. A parent has the decision to either allow the child into this environment OR take them to school on the way into work. Now I have been in these busses and I can guarantee you that the bad kids in the busses are obvious replications of their parents. Ignorance breeds ignorance. That is just what I have experienced in the very recent past.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Why don’t the kids ride the bus?
CaptJackSparrow: “Because some parents don’t want their kids surrounded by foul mouth ghetto slang no manners having never been taught by their momma and have no respect for anyone kind of kids. That’s why.”
Then they shouldn’t have bought a house in such a neighborhood. In fact, there is negligible mixing of neighborhoods on the bus routes in our town. And bailing from the communal systems (i.e, the bus) is no way to ensure the health of society. If the kids on the bus misbehave, every parent should be working to correct their behavior.
CaptJackSparrow: “Ever ride in one recently?”
Yes. I chaperoned a trip for kids from our wealthy suburban town and they were the most out-of-control little @$$h0l3s I could ever hope to meet. When we arrived at our destination, I didn’t let them off the bus until they cleaned up the considerable mess they had made. They were d@mn3d surprised.
Unless adults take a stand, kids will misbehave and they will never learn. Sometimes, this means that an adult has to take on the responsibility for correcting the behavior of a child he does not actually know. Yes, I do that.
It’s a society, we all work together to keep it healthy or it will fall apart. I favor working over abdication.
In fact, I’ll go further… bailing out is for cowards.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (1:04 pm)#92 Laura M said:
#77 Statik
I think the government is better off with the bondholder’s deal, than GM’s plan. They don’t take any haircut. The big “loser” is the UAW. But the bankruptcy code doesn’t prioritize the UAW. If the government is going to, then I think the bondholders have every right to call them on it.
I assumed that GM is worth more than Chrysler. (They have to have a better chance of being viable after a reorganization? And there’s no need for Fiat.) But you would know more than I do. And you’re right about the debt load. But no one has offered the GM bondholders cash or even debt–just percentage equity in the new GM as a class, so it’s irrelevant unless they do.
==========================
I believe GM is worth more than Chrysler as a whole. But the whole company is so convuluted it is hard to tell…and its international presence leaves its value a big question mark, like a ancient sandstone tablet written in a language dead for a thousand years, lol.
It could be worth 10 billion in liquidation, it could be worth nothing. I’m pretty well versed in all GM’s divisions, plants/properties, shadow suppliers, etc by this point in time…and I really couldn’t be confident throwing a number out and not putting a +/- 5-7 billion after it.
Chrysler has very specifc assets that have value, plant/properties and brands that are very centralized ie) Jeep. Also it has very straight forward books/debts/obligations to start with…than were then simplified/steamlined further on its sale to Mercedes, then simplified again to Cerberus. More importantly than all that though, is they are nearly 100% domestic (or at least NA) so they are easy to control/figure out without getting mired down.
A GSB on Chrysler relative to GM is like learning to tie your shoes versus learning how to fly a plane.
The same goes for the Chrysler bondholders to evaluate what they had. I think it was easy for them to do some napkin back math and say, “Yupe, I think we are going to get 40-50 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy pretty easily…so that what we want as a offer, or no deal” The same can not be said on GM’s side, now we have to wait and see how it pans out.
Fiat is a strange addition. I really think the government did not want to proceed this way, I don’t think they thought Fiat would actually partner up here…or Chrysler would get as close as they did with the debtholders, so they are kind of cobbling together a plan here on the fly. With the news of GMAC taking over the financing and already having that ready to go, my gut says they really wanted to fold Chrysler completely and maybe severe off the pieces/brands to other companies (and specifically to GM)…which could still very well happen, they just need the next 30 days or so to apply the pressure to see how strong the commitment is from Fiat.
/it would really be nice to get Fiat’s small car architecture inside Chrysler and on our roads…same can be said for Jeep’s platform for Fiat (which is really the only thing they want)
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Apr 30th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Laura M, Statik “It could be worth 10 billion in liquidation, it could be worth nothing. I’m pretty well versed in all GM’s divisions, plants/properties, shadow suppliers, etc by this point…and I really couldn’t be confident throwing a number out and not putting a +/- 5-7 billion after it.”
______________________
In a world that needs far less of what GM and Chrysler has, what is the salvage value of all their used property? Keep in mind the world knows what the markets are like, can smell desperation and finds it sport to kick the players that are down. Hint; ask Warren Buffet how projections differed from the actual salvage at the original textiles business at Berkshire Hathaway.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (1:39 pm)“Man GM got hammered about the Volt on Letterman last night, anyone catch it?”
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I watched the video of Elon Musk’s appearance and David Letterman’s performance once again reminded me why I could not bring myself to watch him in the past. Letterman is so biased and so damn stupid (maybe ignorant is a better word for him) about things he tries to discuss with his guests. You would think he would have his staff study the subject matter and suggest valid statements about the subject matter. No, Letterman just talks off-cuff and disses people and things he does not personally like. He will soon be gone from the TV scene and we will be better off without him. IMO.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (1:57 pm)N Riley #100
Letterman IS ignorant. Wasn’t there a reporter a few weeks back that asked how to start the engine on the Volt he was driving?
People are ignorant in general about electric cars. I was talking to a guy today and he had no clue about the Volt or how it even worked. He started out right away that he thought it was a bad idea. Then after I explained it to him in basic terms he changed his tune and was interested.
Letterman is just like 90% of this country …. ignorant.
Even our VP is ignorant ….. “I don’t have the web sight number in front of me right now” …. remember that from a couple months ago? People in general are stupid.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:00 pm)@charlie h 97
“Unless adults take a stand, kids will misbehave and they will never learn. Sometimes, this means that an adult has to take on the responsibility for correcting the behavior of a child he does not actually know.”
Yeah, I had to do that to but one has to make sure the line isn’t crossed because if one is then all hell breaks loose and get’s thrown out of proportion and the “How dare you do/say that to MY child” thing starts up. I always praised the ones who were obedient and overall not a nasty little brat. It’s a 50/50.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:07 pm)#62 Jim in PA
“GM seems to me to lead the pack in fuel efficiency. But can they overcome the negative image perpetuated by Toyota fanboyz?”
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Simply put: “No, they can not very easily overcome it.” It is too ingrained into our culture (spoken words, TV, radio, newspapers, magazines – you name it) to be ever overcome. People develop a bias against something very easily when they depend on what they hear or read from sources that have hidden agendas. Once that bias is created, it is very difficult to remove it. It will take many, many years and personal experience for someone to stop believing that GM is evil and that they make the worlds worst vehicles. You drive on the roads every day with hundreds of GM vehicles of all makes and models. Most look and perform just as good as the Toyota or Honda you are driving, but inside you there is a feeling of superiority. That feeling of superiority is really a feeling of bias against the American brand that has been cleverly waged for many years. Very successfully, I might add. I have owned some of the best and the worst and the worst has never been an American vehicle. The best has not always been an American vehicle, from the other viewpoint. But, I have owned some mighty good GM vehicles that I would love to still have today.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:15 pm)GM is way tooooo optimistic then what they are in.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:22 pm)#104 Fas..
????????????????????????????? WTF is that supposed to mean?
ESL?
Just checkin…
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:22 pm)I think I’ll watch the Letterman video now……
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:40 pm)I think the core reason the Prius gets such great mileage is that it’s a lightweight and aerodynamic car. The hybrid system does a lot for the efficiency, but if you were to put a conventional drivetrain into the car, my gut feel is that the mileage would still be good enough that the smug couldn’t be eradicated.
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Weight is between a Corolla and a Camry, exactly as the size would indicate… not lightweight.
Putting a convential draintrain into the car certainly would not be even close. How do you explain Insight getting much lower MPG despite the same shape and being smaller?
It’s the hybrid system. That’s why increasing battery-capacity and adding a plug to it provides a MPG boost.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:40 pm)#103, N Riley,
Like so many Detroit fanbois, you completely fail to understand why people own Toyotas and Hondas. This has nothing to do with bias against American products. Most of us MAKE American products. I do. I know first-hand how crappy work done off-shore can be.
People who are driving Toyotas and Hondas do so, generally, because they were abused badly enough by the domestics to, finally and at long last, go foreign.
After that, comes confidence. We take long driving trips. I used to own new domestic cars under warranty because I had some confidence (often proven false) that these cars would survive a 3K mile trip without a stop for repairs (often enough, these stops occurred). I now own Toyotas that are all almost a decade old and I can confidently set out on a long driving trip in a car with 80+K miles on it (that’s my low mileage creampuff) and know that I’ll reach my destination and return with confidence. Everything in that car works perfectly and has for almost 10 years and, as of yesterday, 93,000 miles.
So, you and the Detroit fanbois should stop talking about “bias” and start talking about “reputation.” And reputations are earned. GM, Ford and Chrysler earned their reputations. So did Toyota and Honda.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:54 pm)lol….
I just finished the Letterman video. Although most here didn’t like it, I’m pretty sure Tesla supports think he’s jus a big an idiot as we think. But of course that’s his job.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (2:56 pm)fyi, I heard Phoenix motors is filing Chap something.
Anyone else hear that?
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Apr 30th, 2009 (3:06 pm)“People who are driving Toyotas and Hondas do so, generally, because they were abused badly enough by the domestics to, finally and at long last, go foreign.”
Yeah, my family has done that. My sisters and brothers. I think myself and my dad are the only ones who own domestics, and I own 2. All I have to say is my Saturn is just as reliable as our Toyota. But my 2002 Ford fukcen Explorer is pissin me off to no end. I hope I can use IT for the cash for clunkers voucher.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (3:06 pm)I watched the Letterman video. Wow, I lost a lot of respect for him. I used to look up to him being in the same fraternity I was. I think he’s lost it.
It almost seems like its the entertainment industry and the east/west coasts against the auto industry sometimes. Actors/Tech companies/Bankers shooting down anything in the manufacturing sector.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (3:10 pm)#46 Herm Says:
It would have been fun if they had made it into a race, with a bunch of different hybrids.
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That made me laugh – They didn’t turn it into a race because they didn’t want a repeat of last Sunday where Carl Edwards’ car ended up in the fence (literally), flipping around and coming to a rest just short of the finish line totally destroyed (it was a very scary wreck for the fans just behind the fence). But then again, they should have known that Carl would then proceed to finish the race on foot anyway!
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Apr 30th, 2009 (3:35 pm)DaV8or @ 74,
I’m not a fan of Letterman’s. Just posting the vid. His control freak demeanor shows when he’s got somebody really funny (or interesting) who gets on a roll. Dave squirms around and can’t stand it. The whole show is probably very scripted (or outlined), I doubt if much of anything out of his mouth is ever actually “off the cuff”, he’d just like you to think that. Too bad Paar and Carson are long gone.
Charlie H. @ 84,
I agree. Kids should ride the bus. CaptJack may be in a unique situation, but lots of parents don’t have kids ride the bus because it’s a “status” thing. Kind of sad. Regardless of what you or I think, most parents won’t suffer a status symbol change to save gas.
WessonHiggins @ 80
The offshore conference sounds interesting. I saw one of those deepwater spaceship monsters while it was under construction at port. It was awesome.
If you see Boone backed up to the bar with a glass of Jack Daniels in his hand telling tales of natural gas in Louisiana, give him a Yo and a fist tap from me. (Go Pokes!)
Have fun at the party
Rust never sleeps.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (4:05 pm)Interesting topics going on here today…..
School Bus: If you are hauling them to school in your car for status, or because you let your kids bully you around, shame on you. Who is the parent and who is the child? If I was doing it because I feared for the safety of my child, I would move. But that is just me….
Letterman: He is a comedian, and I am fine with that. When any of them try to use their shows as a forum to advance an agenda, without having anyone else around to give an opposing view, and especially when it is obvious he has no idea what he is talking about, I just change the channel. His is hardly a news show!
Anti USA car bias: OK, back in the 70’s, 80’s, and maybe even the early 90’s I think you could make a general statement that the cars from the USA Big-3 were pretty junky. But how long do you hold a grudge? For the last 15 years, I think the products from Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been very good. This is not to say that there have not been lemons made. But that happens with every manufacturer. To simply ignore entire car lines because you had a bad one in 1975, seems kind of silly to me. When I am looking, I always go to every lot to see what they have that might fit my needs.
JMHO
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Apr 30th, 2009 (4:45 pm)Jim I: “But how long do you hold a grudge? For the last 15 years, I think the products from Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been very good.”
It’s not holding a grudge… GM, Chrysler and Ford vehicles are consistently rated less reliable than Toyota or Hona vehicles by sources I trust. If they were apparently equal, Toyota has earned my confidence. Why would I switch? Should I cultivate an anti-Japanese bias?
In fact, I still have a pro-American bias. When there aren’t other factors to consider, I look for “Made in America” on products. But my pro-America bias includes taking care of one American thing that’s near and dear to my hip – my wallet.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (5:22 pm)Jim Mbongo, I agree that people who buy hybrids want their vehicle optimized for fuel economy.
However, given the 2 mode adds a lot of weight to an already heavy vehicle, the 3.6 v6 may actually deliver better fuel economy, strange as it may seem.
The 2 mode hybrid in the Chevy Tahoe uses the 6.0L engine instead of the 5.3L. During testing, GM found the 6.0L got better combined mileage because it could use its multi displacement system (4 of 8 cylinders shut off) more often. If the 3.6 is equipped with a similar MDS the remaining 3 cylinders would be equal to a 1.8L engine in those circumstances.
Not sure if it would work out that way in the real world but I do know my 2.2L 4 cylinder Saturn L series got almost identical mileage as my 3.0L V6 Saturn on the highway at 80 mph. And it was a heck of a lot faster off the line. Only in town did the 4 outperform the 6 by a couple MPG.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (7:50 pm)#54, carkus.
You are spot on.
That mental midget will never suffer the pain and itch of Hemorrhoids. He is a genuine PERFECT cloacal cavity.
Nor will his mental deficiencies ever be cured. Why is it that Hollyweird produces so many many narcissistic people with more money then Brains, who think their excrement doesn’t stink?
On to this subject:
From an Engineer’s perspective the EREV architecture may never scale to very large vehicles, at a reasonable cost. So there is a need for a compound hybrid architecture.
The Vue and SRX are Theta platform small SUVs. So the Cadillac SRX dual mode would take essentially a weeks worth of time, no more.
But in reality they should downsize the engine to the 3.0 liter HF v6 DI or even offer a smaller one like 2.8 liters. The electric motors will boost the HP back up, to tow 3500 #s, in conjunction with the smaller engine. it would raise the fuel economy,while still providing Cadillac a refined platform, with effortless power.
I don’t know how difficult it would be to port to the Equinox-Terrain platform. But there I would move to the 2.4 L DI power-plant, in conjunction with the dual mode. You want to get up to at least the mileage of the Escape Hybrid or exceed it, and remove the stigma that the dual mode only achieves 20 mpg, as it does in the 3 and a half ton trucks and BOF gigantic SUVs. installed to date. This has to be done to show that GM can more than match Ford and Toyota at their own game,and then use the Volt-Converj to magnify the leap frog advantage of EREV architecture.
I went looking for the description of the engine layouts for the Theta based Vue-SRX, and the platform for th Equinox-Terrain. Is it horizontal or longitudinal engine mounting when in FWD mode? Are both the same?
If they are, the same I would think that the problem adapting would not be hard. If different it would be more difficult.
Does any one know? i looked cursorily through the net and the reviews are not clear at all.
With regard to the Chrysler BK.
This is really an argument over a tiny amount of money. The government will pay more for the DIP financing than if it payed off the remaining recalcitrant 30% of the debt at 100% on the dollar. The whole argument is over less than a $1+ billion dollars. It only 1+ billion versus $300 million.
The feds are obviously using Chrysler as a guinea pig for the bigger GM BK to come. Personally I think they wan to go to BK and crush the recalcitrants as a warning to GMs debt holders. while at it they would like to handle the dealer downsizing too. The damn legal leeches will bill more than that!
In retrospect Kudos to Senator Corker.
Last fall saw the need for this and these actions, tough as they are. It was his leadership that will lead to a necessary restructuring for both corporations that will allow the NA automotive companies to prosper again.
I just hope that the UAW VEBA fund is obligated to eventually convert its equity to other investments, or the equity is either non-voting, or held by proxy by the government until the government is repaid. There is too much ease in voting itself raises, and approving them, that would put the companies back to the same problem they are in now.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (8:47 pm)stas peterson Says:
I just hope that the UAW VEBA fund is obligated to eventually convert its equity to other investments, or the equity is either non-voting, or held by proxy by the government until the government is repaid. There is too much ease in voting itself raises, and approving them, that would put the companies back to the same problem they are in now.
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True.—–>
It’s also true there is too much ease in government officials (state and federal) voting itself raises and approving them also.
It’s also true there is too much ease in government officials (federal) printing dollars by the trillions to buy votes for the next election cycle regardless of the future consequences.
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Apr 30th, 2009 (9:01 pm)Range anxiety is just one of the things that people will be uncomfortable with regarding BEV’s.
How about extended warranty anxiety if there is not one available?
How about very-expensive-to-service anxiety when lots of small-format cells begin to degrade (as opposed to the much larger format “brick” sized cells of a Volt, which would be far, far, far easier to service when they got very old)?
How about parts-availability-anxiety if the small firms that supply the parts become aware that their economies-of-scale might not “get there” as originally-projected, and, the smaller production economies-of-scale price increases come back to bit owners?.
How about putting all of your range technology in one basket? Meaning, you have no redundancy, or, backup functioning when more than, say, 6 percent of the cells need replacement (and you do not have a range-extender to kick in)?
How about a lack of a vast array of charging subroutine variations needed for the vast array of differing driving demands regarding traffic and weather conditions in a BEV as opposed to an EREV?
How about the sheer worry about the inconvenience of not having an established nearby dealership to support you immediately?
There are lots more questions like this that folks just are not asking when they compare a BEV to the GM EREV Voltec technologies.
But, as half the populace just needs to
*******
see
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a Volt to be able to believe in it (which is certainly OK by me), the overwhelming majority will immediately demand one.
And, I predict that there is a sheer-practical-wisdom of GM will be finally realized by everyone else, not by just us techs.
Dan Petit Austin TX
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May 1st, 2009 (1:23 am)Lemme guess, a Buick version, a Cadillac version, and…….. a Chevy version in a small SUV? Just a hunch.
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May 1st, 2009 (11:32 am)#117 solo2500nt
Solo2500nt,
Very convincing. Thanks a lot.
The true is that is such issues, no matter what other say, at tyhe end GM knows better. Again, thanks a lot.
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May 2nd, 2009 (3:10 pm)The Volt technology is still the best going.
All GM needs is a level playing field… the Japanese market is still closed while they sell cars here and pay no US taxes. Our government created the problem by letting this unfair trade go on for so long. 30 years at least. We need a government that helps US industry not put it at a disadvantage by letting foreign companies have huge tax advantages while keeping our products out of their markets.
40 mile range is more than enough for me… I could do without the range extender. Would like to have that option and cost reduction.
The best vehicle I can think of is a 2006 Saturn Vue with Chevy volt technology… so with its larger size and weight it would only get 30miles per charge .. still enough for my 9 mile commute each way to work with stops to the store.
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