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Honda Shifts Gears on Plug-in Electric Cars

April 26th, 2009 | Posted in: Competitors

In late 2007 Honda President Takeo Fukui went on record saying he “saw no value in developing plug-in hybrid vehicles”. He criticized the Volt concept saying “my feeling is that the kind of plug-in hybrid currently proposed by different auto makers can be best described as a battery electric vehicle equipped with an unnecessary fuel engine and fuel tank,” though he did acknowledge if “we can come up with a really high-performing battery” a pure BEV would be the way to go.

Fast forward a year and a half later and Honda appears to have changed its tune.

Honda R&D Chief Engineer Kenji Nakano spoke at an SAE conference. He told attendees that Honda now believes a range of hybrid options are necessary and will be a part of Honda’s future portfolio. Included are mild hybrids, strong hybrids, plug-in hybrids, battery electric vehicles, and yes, range extended electric vehicles.

“We think simple lightweight hybrid systems such as IMA are now suitable, especially for compact cars,” said Nakano. “We’ll do our best to promote hybrid technology which leads to electric drive [such as plug-in hybrids].”

Of course this shouldn’t really surprise us as Honda has just begun construction of a joint venture lithium-ion battery plant with GS Yuasa.

Welcome to the plug-in party Honda, we knew you would finally come.

Source (GreenCarCongress)

Posted by: Lyle

161 Responses to “Honda Shifts Gears on Plug-in Electric Cars”

Jim I Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:15 am

Imagine that…………….

Come on GM, lets show the world what you can do, when you decide to do it right!

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Dave K. Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:20 am

#2!

Go lithium batteries.. go Volt!

=D~

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old man Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:27 am

Are there any MAJOR car companys in the world left who are not now trying with everything they have to catch up with the voltec system for the NEW, new car buyer who wants electric but like me wants the range extender ICE?

I am more convinced each day that E-REV is the near future and only BEV will one day surpass it when quick charging is doable and readily available.

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tom Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:08 am

E-REV will appeal to a niche, but if GM has that niche to itself 5% of car sales is a lot of cars. Until Gas prices get back over $4 E-REV even with subsidies will be too expensive for 10 years just too much stuff packed in a car.

The bigger niche which is more like 30% of car market is the 2 car family’s second car. One gas car for longer trips, one BEV for around town.

It is too early to do this, because we are 3 years away from any meaningful E-REV or BEV production capacity, but a $1 tax on gasoline with that money going to pay for tax credits to buy AMERICAN MADE ELECTRIC CARS is the ticket to get us to stop buying our energy from our enemies and having an american economy to build cars and new energy development.

Then in 20 years, though we’ll be leaving our children trillions of dollars in debt, we’ll at least have an american economy and free energy to power our cars and industry (assuming we spend 20 years building wind, solar, geothermal, hydro and nuclear power plants).

Then maybe America will have a future.

Otherwise we will continue the path that leads to our middle class being on par with India and China.

I am a programmer and our VP told us the other day that all commpanies will continue to cut cuts and send jobs offshore. It isn’t going to stop with programmers and engineers, it will continue with all office non customer-facing jobs until us 80,000 a year professionals beg for our jobs back at 20,000 a year.

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CDAVIS Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:31 am

______________________________________________________
Honda, welcome for joining the Electric Car Revolution!

EREVw/AER40+ & BEVw/AER150+ is the starting line of the Electric Car Revolution.

Many Americans will place value in being able to take a drive without burning a drop of gas. Hybrids (like Prius) that give you high mileage are to be credited for advancing mpg but that is not the same thing as being able to drive to work and back gas free.

Inside 20 years the average American will be driving a car that is EREVw/AER40+ or BEVw/AER150+. By 2024, ALL new car models coming off the line will all be BEVw/AER300+ and have quick charge ability.

There are two entry points for car makers to join the Electric Care Revolution: EREVw/AER40+ or BEVw/AER150+. Car makers like Honda are starting to understand that they will be left behind if they are not a participant in the Electric Car Revolution.
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = Ameican Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________

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Takanobu Ito Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:40 am

We at Honda have many surprises for the Americans. The EV war is far from over. Master Fukui is fearless and a great leader. Be very careful Volt fans, you may be very disappointed in what the future hold for you. You can be assured that I will not bring shame to our cause. We at Honda are relentless in out pursuit of the finest electric vehicles in the world. GM will feel our wrath.

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an_outsider Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:03 am

Yes, it is only a matter of time to bring new technology affordable and common use & sense. Peak oil, environnement considerations, economic downturn have at least a convergence point: it is a factor of progress (necessity is the mother of invention).

I buy a new car every 10 years laps or so, my next one is scheduled to be 2015, so there is hope in the air

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JEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:05 am

Takanobu Ito

Hey, you changed your name again!

Stop trying to pretend that your some Japanese car enthusiast, and reveal yourself.

Japan can develop a great car, I have no doubts, but I also am convinced that Japan will not lead this revolution. The culture in Japan will prevent development of radical engineering principles, but Japan is very good at re-engineering an idea.

Japans greatest fear should be if the “inventive” engineering countries (US/Germany/etal) are on to Japan’s tendencies, and finds a way to squelch it.

Good luck to all in development of this new generation of electrics. It shall be interesting!

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EclecticDan Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:19 am

This really is GM’s big chance to prove itself. While it is the only EREV available, it will have the market (however niche) to itself. Anyone interested in this type of power-train will take a look at the Volt and judge the “new GM” by it. This is an opportunity for GM to win people back. I myself, and quite a few others, are done with American cars. Once there is a Honda Voltec-esque option available, I doubt I’d even consider a GM vehicle. I’m glad to hear that a reliable car company is embracing the EREV concept.

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JEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:28 am

#9 EclecticDan

So you think this is an opportunity for GM to win back car buyers, but than you admit you would likely not even consider GM, once Honda builds one.

So, no matter what GM does, your not willing to give them a chance?

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Tagamet Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:39 am

It should be no surprise to anyone on this site that everyone else is now playing catch-up – especially Hionda. The longer a company has dug in it’’s heels in the anti-plugin MUD the more, er, ground to make up.
Ne well,
Tag
PS PDNFTT

LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS********Independence (from oil) Day 2010

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Tagamet Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:47 am

Arrg:
BE well.

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statik Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:48 am

Well, better late than never I guess. More competition and another place in the race to get something (anything) to market is good for all of us in the long run.

/can’t wait to see the fantastical lineup up of concept cars that is sure to follow

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koz Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:57 am

Not given your local merchants, whether it be community or country, a home field chance is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Nobody should get a free ride but your home town players should get first and last look. A dollar spent on domestic goods has more value to you, the buyer, than the same dollar spent on a comparable foreign goods. So…even for the most selfish and myopic perspectives, you should still give domestic goods an edge.

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Nelson Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The first major auto manufacturer with a plug-in, “for sale – not lease”, will be the first one out of the sales slump.

NPNS!

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Slave to OPEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am

This is no surprise. Honda’s “green intentions” should be clear with the introduction of the 2010 Insight.

As for Chevy, Wagner said we need $4.00/gallon gas prices before the Volt would be widely accepted. This can be easily achieved with a variable rate “fuel tax” to keep a gallon of gas at a minimun set price (eg: $3.00/gallon). Who knows, the proceeds from this fuel tax could even be used to directly subsidize battery R&D / production initiatives.

Lastly, is there anyone here that thinks Toyota isn’t working on an EREV Prius ? Toyota just got B!&^%$# slapped by Honda with the Insight. They’re not going to let it happen again with the Volt…

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Gary (a.k.a. The Queen of England) Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:07 am

6 Takanobu Ito and 8 JEC:

It’s ridiculous when people come here masquerading as someone else. I remember a few months back seeing a post from Bob Lutz. I somehow doubt it was really him.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am

Takanobu Ito

Thank you for displaying the liver eating samurai mentality.

You prosper because we have protected you since WWII and have allowed you to stab us in the back with unfair trade practices.

One day even Americans will wise up to your game.

Never will buy a foreign car; might be walking.

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Brian Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:17 am

Honda is already well positioned to dominate the hybrid field with the Insight, and this will help solidify them in the green car space with an EV. I still have little interest in E-REVs and think long range pure BEVs are the way to go.

I have to agree with #9 though, if it ever came down to a choice of simliar E-Revs between Honda and GM, it would be a no brainer for most people to choose the quality of the Honda.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:20 am

No brainer – how apt!

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:23 am

They conceded to GM’s original insight that all these configurations are necessary in the near term, until alternative fuel technologies and infrastructures are developed.

It only took Honda 2 years and Toyota 1 year to change course – that’s quick for Asian conglomerates.

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Redeye Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:24 am

They’ve always been a tricky bunch.

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Dave G Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:28 am

By the way: IMA = Integrated Motor Assist (parallel hybrid).

If Honda does come out with and EREV, that would be a very, very good thing. Competition helps everyone, including GM.

But so far, all we have is the Volt. No other major car maker has announced a production range extended EV.

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john1701a Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:35 am

Toyota just got B!&^%$# slapped by Honda with the Insight.
__________________________

SALES! It boils down to that, not the hype.

Without sales of the product, what do you have? Just hype… which certainly isn’t enough to draw conclusions with.

WAIT FOR THE SALES DATA.

Remember, we’ve already been through this before with several hybrid technologies. Study history. Making a difference means actually selling something.

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Dave G Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:37 am

#19 Brian Says: I still have little interest in E-REVs and think long range pure BEVs are the way to go.
————————————————————————————–
A pure BEVs uses more gas than the Volt.

Pure BEV advocates inevitably say they will use another car for longer trips, either a rental, or another car that they own. Let’s assume that second car or rental is a Toyota Corolla at 35 MPG highway.

With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Pure BEV / Corolla … 39
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:39 am

So far we’ve had the following Honda executive guests posting here:

Takeo Fukui ……..a.k.a. “Tokyo F. You”
and now,
Takanobu Ito …… a.k.a. “I too taking over you”

You can’t make this stuff up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmq9XD4k9p0

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JB Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:42 am

Honda isn’t behind nor are they playing catch-up. With the release of the Honda Insight Gen 1 (released in 2000) and now the release of the Honda Insight Gen 2 (released in 2009) they are doing just as they planned. They actually have something out for the public to purchase and are way ahead in R & D then most companies. It’s GM that is now scrambling to get something out to compete. Sure the Volt if it were out today would be the best thing out there. But it isn’t….not yet.

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Van Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am

Off Topic

Over on GreenCar, there is an article about a next generation lithium battery cell that has both high power and high specific energy (180 Wh/kg). I did not see a cost comparison. As someone above said, Go Lithium Battery, Go !

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john1701a Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:48 am

A pure BEVs uses more gas than the Volt.
________________________

Wow! First, it’s making up “typical” without gathering & presenting real-world data to support it. Now, it is quibbly over just 2 gallons.

The lack of objectivity is helping to reinforce the hype mentality.

Please make an effort to change this. Remember, the bankruptcy deadline is only 5 weeks away. For efforts like Volt to be taken seriously, constructive discussion is absolutely vital.

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vincent Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am

That’s a shocker! LOL

Didn’t Lee Iacocca once say “Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way”

Google Japan’s Shuttle and see how much it looks like ours….
OK GM Kick Some Ass Boys!

As I have said so many times before. Build the dam Battery Plant here!

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Koz Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am

Dave G #25

True you can come up with scenarios that a BEV will result in more gasoline consumption just like someone created a scenario that a Ford F-150 has a smaller carbon footprint than a Prius. By and large these are very, very misleading statements. BEVs have their real concerns, but gas consumption is not one of them.

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statik Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:54 am

#19 Brian says:

Honda is already well positioned to dominate the hybrid field with the Insight, and this will help solidify them in the green car space with an EV. I still have little interest in E-REVs and think long range pure BEVs are the way to go.
=============================
I think they ‘were’ well positioned to dominate the hybrid field with the Insight, but they underestimated Toyota’s statement of how the new Prius was going to be, “faster, go farther and cost less” They (Honda) are still going to get a nice piece of the market, but they have little to no shot at dominating it.

I actually walked from my deposit at Honda, it was so one sided.

$19,800 vs $21,000 is very little difference at all (or $22,000 for trim level II Prius-which I’m sure is much easier to ‘acquire,’ lol). But the performance, size and street cred of the two is significant.

Mileage: 50MPG vs 40MPG…Prius
Size: 93.7 vs 85 feet of passenger space…Prius
Net horsepower: 134 vs 98…Prius
0-60: 9.8 vs 12.4…Prius

Even the intangibles I feel lean towards Toyota, so I can’t even try to lean that point to Honda.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am

When Takeo Fukui orders Honda/Acura to make a plug-in hybrid NSX, then I’ll pay attention to Japanese press releases.

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statik Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am

#25 Dave G said:

A pure BEVs uses more gas than the Volt.

Pure BEV advocates inevitably say they will use another car for longer trips, either a rental, or another car that they own. Let’s assume that second car or rental is a Toyota Corolla at 35 MPG highway.

With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
Pure BEV / Corolla … 39
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
========================

Lets say a pure BEV advocate like myself are more likely to rent or own a Toyota Prius, that gets 50MPG+

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CorvetteGuy Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:07 am

FYI-

Tesla + Smart = An electric car for you this December!

http://dvice.com/archives/2009/04/tesla-powered-e.php

I wonder how much?…

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GXT Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:10 am

There is way too much weight being put on these statements in regards to Honda and EREV. The speech said that Honda had expected hybrids to be short term but now they appear to be longer term. In that context, a range of hybrid options may need to be considered.

This is in no way a GM-style EREV love-fest. Should the time come when it makes sense, I have no doubt that Honda will be there. But I’m still confident that Honda knows that this EREV is currently PR over substance.

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JEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Dave G
“A pure BEVs uses more gas than the Volt.

Pure BEV advocates inevitably say they will use another car for longer trips, either a rental, or another car that they own. Let’s assume that second car or rental is a Toyota Corolla at 35 MPG highway.”
————————————————————————————-
But you miss the real point of owning a BEV.

1) Simplified design
2) Simplified manufacture
3) Simplified and less costly maintanence. (to me this is what I WANT!)
4) Lower cost (admitedly, the cost will be tied heavily to the battery, but I have a high confidence the price will come down substantially, and you have even estimated costs coming down at least in half for next gen Volt).

I will own an ICE anyway, and it will be my “other vehicle”, but so what. I am not concerned about the 2-3 times a year where range may be an issue. I would have used my larger ICE (van) for long trips anyway.

The BEV will become the future. It just makes sense. For now the E-REV will be the transition, and I have no problem with that.

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Koz Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:16 am

Statik #32

That’s a good run down of the disparity between the two cars, so someone that wants the cheapest hybrid will buy the Honda and it will meet his wants. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that the drivetrain is even less amenable toward increasing EV portion of propulsion than Toyota’s HSD. It really is only marginally better than GM’s BAS system. Stick a new generation BAS in the Cobalt shell and you will get very similar results to the Insight and could be offered for less $. Shame GM hasn’t pushed into volume applications or they could be successfully competing in the low end hybrid arena. Properly marketed two-modes could be successfully creating a “real” truck hybrid market. The sooner the braindead GM marketers and management realize that hybrids can be marketed first for their utilitarian value add and not just as a luxury value add (especially when they don’t actually add much luxury), the sooner they will have successful hybrid programs.

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EclecticDan Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am

@JEC #10,
I’m saying it’s a chance for GM to dazzle car buyers who have been burned by 70’s and 80’s era GM cars and would otherwise never consider owning a GM product. Being the only game in town means we’ll have to take a look. Maybe we’ll like what we see? Unless GM puts on a spectacular show, I’d likely choose a competing Honda. Still, I have to give GM a ton of credit. The Voltec drive-train is the best near-term solution for getting the country off of oil. By seizing the opportunity, GM has created an unprecedented way to get folks like me into a show room who had given up on GM cars long ago. It’s a marketing opportunity. A chance to change people’s opinion of the GM brand… a chance that most companies can only dream of. Time will tell if GM squanders it or capitalizes on it.

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Rockyroad Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:28 am

What he said a year ago was Dis-Information … would any car manufacturer REALLY tell you what types of cars they were planning for the future ? I doubt it … I have no doubt that Honda has been working on a range extender electric for as long as Volt has.

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statik Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am

#38 koz said:

That’s a good run down of the disparity between the two cars, so someone that wants the cheapest hybrid will by the Honda and it will meet his wants. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that the drivetrain is even less amenable toward increasing EV portion of propulsion than Toyota’s HSD. It really is only marginally better than GM’s BAS system. Stick a new generation BAS in the Cobalt shell and you will get very similar results to the Insight and could be offered for less $. Shame GM hasn’t pushed into volume applications or they could be successfully competing in the low end hybrid arena. Properly marketed two-modes could be successfully creating a “real” truck hybrid market. The sooner the braindead GM marketers and management realize that hybrids can be marketed first for their utilitarian value add and not just as a luxury value add (especially when they don’t actually add much luxury), the sooner they will have successful hybrid programs.

=======================

I agree it is a shame that GM hasn’t tagged any small car architecture for being ‘hybridized’ Although, that may be by design, there is a long standing belief (that I share) that GM can’t build and make money on small cars, due to a number of things we seemingly discuss daily when it comes to their solvency.

/perhaps the ‘new’ GM can make this happen

As for Honda/Prius price war. I’m not sure how many customers in this segment are going to be moved all that significantly for the Honda being $1,500-$2,000 cheaper. We are still well out of the entry level price point, and into the ‘discretionary’ spending band.

Side note: Nothing beats a $8,250 Accent (Canada MSRP, stated in USD) with a 5/100 warranty getting 30MPG on strictly ‘bang for buck’ basis.

Because Honda was out first, they hoovered up a lot of pre-orders, so they will have a strong first 6 months or so of sales…as will the Prius with their legion of hungry customers.

We should get a good idea of just how many go for price (relatively speaking) and how the war is shaping up after that.

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zipdrive Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

Electricdan @9 “I doubt I’d even consider a GM vehicle.”
and
Brian @19 “it would be a no brainer for most people to choose the quality of the Honda.”
————————————————————————

OOPS! You well intentioned boys need to periodically update the information you use to think with.

General Motors makes the highest quality vehicle line on the planet now. Sorry Japan.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090320/BUSINESS06/903200331/1019/BUSINESS/Buick+tops+Lexus+in+dependability+ratings

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Brian Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

“A pure BEVs uses more gas than the Volt.”

I just have to scratch my head at this statement, being a pure BEV uses no gas at all. My “typical driving pattern” must not be the same as your made up one.

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Guy Incognito Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:38 am

Takeo Fukui went on record to say he “saw no value in developing plug-in hybrid vehicles”.

Well then Mr Fukui, I’d like to go on record to say that I “see no value in purchasing a honda.”

Just one more idiot in a long line of idiots who thinks that they’re smarter than the inexorable forward march of technology.

In the age of the telephone, Takeo Fukui still thinks telegrams are a great way to communicate.

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zipdrive Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:41 am

Hey, Chevy Volt fans. How about we not acknowledge the sociopath above who’s pretending to be a Honda executive.

GO GM!

GO VOLT!

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:43 am

I think GM better add some tools to their ” list ” before entering a full GM vs. Honda mpg battle.

If they can’t come up with a $20kish 40+ mpg hybrid, maybe these will help:

Marv’s list:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W3edIWxcvo&feature=related

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eightzero Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

There are lots of things in this world that can’t be justified on economics alone. A plug-in electric car is one. I just want one because that’s what I want. Is it cheaper? No. Will it be “better” for me in any way? Probably not. But, like life insurance, it just makes me feel better; and I’m willing to pay for it.

Car marketing people take note: there are people willing to pay money for the ability to say “look ma – I’m not buying any gas.” I do not like them, the oil companies and OPEC. I do not like them, Sam I Am.

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Right Lane Cruiser Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

GMs BAS is indeed a similar concept to IMA, but that is where the similarity ends. Honda never intended their system to have a realistic EV only mode — they simply put the smallest, most efficient engine into a vehicle that could manage just a bit more than steady state cruising power, then augmented it with an electric “turbo” for when more torque is needed. They weren’t trying to get maximum fuel economy by turning off the engine more — just better efficiency through the use of tiny powerplants that normally wouldn’t deliver “acceptable” (power) performance for the average driver.

Toyota went the route of limiting use of the engine for their efficiency gains. If they would extend the EV only speed range up to highway speed, the same techniques used to attain ridiculous mileage in the city could be used out on the highway to good effect… but this hasn’t been done yet. So, while the Prius gets better mileage overall on the EPA test cycles, if you want to compare highway capability the new Insight is still a tad better in terms of actual performance with experienced drivers at the wheel. We still have to wait until the Prius-III gets into customer hands for “average Joe” comparisons, but several new owners of the 2010 Insight have seen highway commutes over the 70mpg mark (non-hypermilers, I should note).

Toyota and Honda are targeting different market dynamics with their vehicle, but I can tell you that if it comes down to a price war Honda has more range for price reduction on the Insight than Toyota has on their new Prius.

I still believe that which one is more appropriate for a particular customer will depend largely upon what type of driving he or she needs/wants to do, and what sort of use the car will be put to most of the time. Each has strengths that can be leveraged in different ways.

As for EREV architecture, I do believe that this is the best way forward in terms of hybrid construction. Toyota’s system is nice and can have an augmented battery installed, but at base it is backwards in approach for what we need. It is a gas car with components allowing EV operation. The Voltec comes at it from the other direction — and I believe it is the right one.

I should point out that all the Hydrogen Fuel Cell work done by Honda is technically an EREV architecture — one that has been using lithium batteries for some time. The range extender just happens to be the fuel cell… What happens when Honda decides it needs to offer serious competition and simply swaps out the fuel cell for a gas generator? They aren’t quite as “behind” as you might think.

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David L Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

I’m sure that the competition form Honda will be good for the consumer!

All this talk about adding a fuel tax to ensure that gasoline costs at least $3 per gallon is “unique” to the US. In Canada, we are already paying about US $2.75 per gallon (CDN $0.90 / litre). Last summer, prices approached US $6 gallon. These higher fuel costs definitely encourage consumers to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles.

In British Columbia, there already is a 2.4 cent/litre carbon tax which is due to increase on July 1st. However, there is also a provincial election underway where at least one party is promising to scrap the tax.

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Luke Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

General Motors makes the highest quality vehicle line on the planet now. Sorry Japan.

That’s great, but my Japanese-car versus American-car experience is all firsthand. A magazine article doesn’t change 18 years worth of firsthand experience.

My dad had a 1991 Honda Accord coupe that went to 199,800 miles. Unfortunately, I wrecked it when I was a teenager in 1997 and that was the end of the line — but the car was in great shape and, if I hadn’t wrecked it, I’m pretty sure that I would have driven it until I graduated from college in 2001. My folks have owned a 1997 Honda Accord and a 1996 Honda Civic since, along with a smattering of Fords (Tempo, Mercury Sable, Ranger, F-150), and the Hondas just keep going. They still own that 1996 Civic, and it just won’t get old.

So, that 1991 Accord was built around 18 years ago. That makes GM a johnny-come-lately to the quality game. And it’ll take them another decade or two to establish the kind of first-hand reputation that Honda has had for pretty-much all of my adult life.

On the other hand, I personally haven’t owned a Honda. I’ve never bought a new car, and used Hondas (and Toyotas) hold their value so well that buying a used one doesn’t make sense. OTOH, an used Ford looses so much value when it comes off the lot that they’re undervalued. That’s not to say that I haven’t had to do a $#!tload of work on my 1998 Ford Ranger that wasn’t required on any of the near-200k-mileage Hondas that my parents have owned — but I knowingly made that tradeoff to reduce up-front costs and bought the Ford anyway. My 1989 Ford Tempo was a horrible car.

So, while I do see the articles that say GM’s quality has come up in the last 5 years, I won’t really believe it until these cars start to dominate the used-car market.

Anyway, I hope the Volt is a new era for GM and American car makers, both in technology and quality. And new drivetrain technology is about the only thing that can convince me to open my wallet to buy a new car. But, saying “go team” isn’t going to change nearly two decades of firsthand family experience with Japanese and American vehicles…

P.S. My 2001 Volkswagen Jetta is the least reliable car I’ve ever owned! Gah! But it was also the most fun to drive…

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ACENismo350 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

It’s about time Honda got the message. I’m surprised it took this long considering they sold the first hybrid in the U.S.

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Luke Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Anyway, I’m very much looking forward to the competition from Honda. No matter which company “wins”, I get to pick the better car and then I win.

I’ve been very impressed with Honda’s reliability over the years, even if their hybrids have been a little hit-and-miss.

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fas Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 1:04 pm

Soon we will see Toyota, Honda, Mercedes all having a hybrid line up.

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an_outsider Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

In my humble opinion, the above Honda’s statement only brings the point the fuel cell hy(pe)drogen won’t be, from an economical & practical point of view, a mass market product maybe before (2-3?) decades, if ever taking off.
In the short and mid-term perspective, Honda just informs us they want to be part of this new market race, alternative niche to the plain old fashion ICE.

All nature of Hybrid cars (HEV, PHEV, E-REV, etc) will continue to be improved over the time, following the battery/capacitor technology advance achievement. This will lead the electric propulsion to become the main street in the long term over the traditional combustion engine and ultimately, to the PEV.

There is a lot of space for a tiny/small ICE improvement as be part of the E-REV itself. Few examples of fancy promising old/new technology :
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/22/sae-2009-fev-proposes-wankel-rotary-as-range-extender/
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/free-piston-engines-efficient-plug-in-hybrid-cars-electric.php

More seriously, In parallel, the low sulfur cleaner diesel and alternative ICE fuel (LPG, CNG, GTL, cellulosic ethanol, algae biofuel, etc, etc) will probably gain some market share in the mid-term range over gasoline, but not so much unless the price skyrocket again to the pump or without some financial incentive.

Lot of reading there http://www.greencarcongress.com/
*****

out of subject, just an open question:

One of my major concern is with all these different battery technologies on their way with all these car & battery joint venture announcement of new battery mfg plant in construction for transportation use, we soon have to face another challenge: the replacement cost and recycling fee for dead batteries to be disposed in an environnemental sensitive way. In Europe, the trend seem to include the end of life product disposal fee as part of its initial cost for the producer/reseller.

Is there outside a strong and reliable recycling industry chain to take over this incoming mass market polluting waste? Voluntary and/or under legislator constraint, how much will it add to the real cost for consumers?

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Herm Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

I am not sure about that, the Toyota concept is brilliant.. they are replacing Hondas CVT transmission with a second motor/controller and the simple planetary gearset device.. thats right the Prius does not use a transmission.

Automatic transmissions and CVTs are expensive, delicate and complicated.. as anyone knows that has replaced one lately.. on the other hand Toyota’s motor/controller is amenable to mass production in Vietnam in low tech, low investment plants. The Prius powertrain has been in mass production for a long time. I think Toyota has made large profits on the Prius for a long time.. unlike what everyone else thinks.

…………………..

#48 Right Lane Cruiser Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

Toyota and Honda are targeting different market dynamics with their vehicle, but I can tell you that if it comes down to a price war Honda has more range for price reduction on the Insight than Toyota has on their new Prius.

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CDAVIS Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 1:53 pm

______________________________________________________
My car lease is up so I’m shopping around looking for a car to hold me over until I can get my hands on a Chevy Volt.

Yesterday I checked out the 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid. I was impressed by the car; Sporty for a roomy sedan…great gas mileage. I automatically give the Fusion extra points because it’s from an American car maker that has not participated in the Great American Bailout Orgy.

Here is the 2010 Fusion I looked at:
http://netlook.com/vehicle/detail/new/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-11986417-0-494810.html

The reason I bring all this up is because if you look at photo #8 (photo link: http://netlook.com/auto/USFLWPB/pic/11987273/AT10642822-800px-p8.jpg?dt=20090421 ), of the Fusion, you will notice the sign of a CITGO gas station in the background. It struck me as poetic justice to see a CITGO sign in the background of a Ford Fusion Hybrid; a car that will help give CITGO much less business.

About CITGO:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-01-11-citgo-cover-usat_x.htm

http://www.ethicalcorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=5209

The Volt will help give CITGO NO business. That’s the whole point folks!!!

GM…please get the Volt on showroom floors!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________

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Right Lane Cruiser Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

Hi, Herm — I’m well aware of the differences in “transmission” between the two. The Prius planetary gearset is an elegant and robust solution but you have to look at the bigger system as a whole.

Toyota has publicly acknowledged that their HSD system is at or below $2000 for their new Prius (over and above the cost of a conventional vehicle). Consider that Honda uses only 1 (smaller) motor, a much smaller battery, and much simpler control electronics and it isn’t hard to understand why IMA costs less to implement.

Additionally, the new Insight is based on a modified Fit platform. Having examined the vehicle at the Detroit Auto Show I can tell you that the construction standards are well below those of both the Fit and the Civic Hybrid — there were significant cost cutting measures taken in its manufacture. All things considered, a decent guess at profitable production would pin the price at around $17,500 — far below the current sticker price. You can see it in the current prices of the Civic Hybrid right now… which can be purchased at a lower cost than the Insight in most places now.

This all spells extra markup — and a lot more flexibility in pricing than what Toyota can afford. Honda is just stubborn — they should have put the new Insight on the market at just below $18K to significantly differentiate itself from Toyota and to put it more solidly in the reach of those who wouldn’t even consider spending $20K on a vehicle.

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truthguy Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

Tom @ #4 says the following:

but a $1 tax on gasoline with that money going to pay for tax credits to buy AMERICAN MADE ELECTRIC CARS is the ticket to get us to stop buying our energy from our enemies and having an american economy to build cars and new energy development.
______________________________No, no, no Tom. We want NO more new taxes. Have you taken leave of your senses. We in California have just been hit with a major round of devastating new taxes. Gas prices are already starting to creep up. Goverment out here wastes most of the money it’s given and they never have enough. People are at the point of revolt and you propose a $1 tax on gas on top of what we already have. Madness. Sheer Madness. Gas will be back up to over $4/gal and soon. In the meantime GM, Ford, Chrysler need to sell some ICE cars so they can survive until the EREVs can get into production. It will be 2012 before most of us can get our hands on a Volt or one of the other EREVs from Chrysler (assuming they survive and produce these cars). NO MORE DAMN taxes. If you increase the taxes before the EREVs are avilable then all you are going to do is move more people over to Prius. Have you thought this out?

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Ed M Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

hummmm, sounds like Takeo found his battery…

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Ed M Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

#6 Takanobu Ito

hahahahahahahahaha…what a comedian. that’s a great Tokyo Rose rendition and a big Banzai to you.

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Fred H Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

Why would Honda NOT want to get into the E-REV market? They have the absolute best small generators on the market. They could drop those bad boys into an electric drive car and PROOF, a Volt competitor. They even have their knowledge of the Honda EV-Plus to build on. I imagine they will catch up VERY quickly.

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

#57 Right Lane Cruiser,

I spent 30 minutes nosing around the insight at the Honda dealership yesterday, and I agree with your analysis.

Honda likely has some room left on the insight which could result in a price drop once the “new model shine” wears off.

If this happens, it wil be interesting to see how far down the ladder Toyota will chase Honda.

p.s. If you get in the back seat of an insight, watch your head! The insight interior is noticeably tighter than the prius.

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Ed M Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

Fred H #61 We can produce the same generators because we can copy there technology for a change.

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Ed M Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

toothguy #58

It will be 2012 before most of us can get our hands on a Volt or one of the other EREVs from Chrysler ?? more like 2020.

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Anthony BC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

A new competitor has entered the ring!!

READY……….FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT !

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

Another thought on the $17,500 ish insight.

At this price point, Honda would be attracting the twenty-something demographic. I think this crowd has greater awareness of “green” issues and probably lusts over a new hybrid much more than the forty something and over crowd does for a $30k and up fusion hybrid or volt. Now you get into the brand loyalty primacy with first time car buyers and set up a long lasting advantage.

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Seymour Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

I have had the luxury of visiting GM engineering and Honda engineering. It is no contest here. The average Honda engineer has a Cray Supercomputer at their desk whereas the average GM engineer works with a low powered intel PC. Your typical GM engineer has much difficulty designing their way out of a wet paper bag. My money is on Honda to slam dunk GM in the long term. Sorry Volt fanboys.

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

#66 add:

I can imagine Tokyo Fuku and Ibeetakenover sitting in the steam room talking this kind of stuff over. Wagoner (R.I.P) and Lutz? – - – not so much.

And Fritz? Well maybe he’s got his nose pressed up against the steam room door, at least wondering what the little Japanese guys are talking about.

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ccombs Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

I figured Honda would come around. First time I heard about plug-ins, I knew they were the way of the future. Gas cars are in their waning days, and EVs are too hard for the masses to use as their only car at this point. I predict an explosion of EREV cars in the near future (hopefully parallel hybrid plug-ins die in the near future). Electric drive 100% of the time!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

From the article,
Honda R&D Chief Engineer Kenji Nakano spoke at an SAE conference. He told attendees that Honda now believes a range of hybrid options are necessary and will be a part of Honda’s future portfolio. Included are mild hybrids, strong hybrids, plug-in hybrids, battery electric vehicles, and yes, range extended electric vehicles.

OK. Me, of all people, should be asking this question, but here it goes.
What is the significant difference between a plug-in hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle?

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Rashiid Amul Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

I think I just answered my own question.
In a range extended electric vehicle the electric motor is constantly working to turn the wheels.

In a plug-in hybrid the electric motor works until the battery is discharged. Correct?

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john1701a Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

What is the significant difference between a plug-in hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle?
________________________

There is no significant difference.

It’s like the Toyota / Honda comparisons. Each design has its own particular strength. It really depends what market & consumer needs are.

That’s why only a single configuration of Volt is so risky. Predicting what will attract buyers is much easier when there’s a variety of sizes & types available.

By the way, I’ve been nagging for well over a year for detail about differences. So far… still nothing.

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Larry Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

I think it would take about 200 miles range for me to seriously consider a BEV (my daily commute is 97 miles).
A pure BEV would be more reliable than a hybrid but, for the foreseeable future, the cost of that much extra battery is more than the cost of the ICE. Weight penalty is about the same…

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Dan Petit Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

While Honda makes a superquiet portable generator, it is very expensive for the wattage. Although I think that if Honda wants to go EREV, they certainly will. I don’t think Honda upper management really understands the synergy of the whole EREV concept very well. The provincial ways that upper management often become mired into, generally inhibit open-mindedness. In addition, public disclosure of business plans are not something Honda does unless absolutely necessary.
It still seems to me that Japanese executives look around the island of Japan and do not comprehend the wide variances of daily mileage needs of Americans, because, as I remember it when I was stationed in Okinawa, the average annual mileage for Japanese vehicles is 3 or 4 thousand miles annually only. Perhaps they would come under fire from local Japanese customers (and shareholders) when their local customers need not drive more than 8 miles a day both ways to work, and Honda execs might be accused of making a wasteful over-design (for America or elsewhere).
So BEV’s might be OK there, but I have a hunch that as any BEV sold here gets older, and, the AER gets a lot shorter and shorter and shorter, that the resale value of a BEV here might really plummet directly in proportion to the remaining limited range, and, the increasing percentage of cells becoming marginal or unserviceable. (The more you have, the more you have to go bad).
So I believe Honda really hasn’t become fully-committed to EREV’s. Nor would I expect Honda to break with tradition and give us any further details. But regular disclosures of technical benchmarks would be interesting. I doubt that demand for EREV’s would ever become satisfied, so I don’t see any compelling need for any OEM to remain secretive any longer regarding their EREV plans.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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Koz Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 5:49 pm

Statik #41

“I agree it is a shame that GM hasn’t tagged any small car architecture for being ‘hybridized’ Although, that may be by design, their is a long standing belief that GM can’t build and make money on small cars, due to a number of things we seemingly discuss daily when it comes to their solvency.

/perhaps the ‘new’ GM can make this happen

As for Honda/Prius price war. I’m not sure how many customers in this segment are going to be moved all that significantly for the Honda being $1,500-$2,000 cheaper. We are still well out of the entry level price point, and into the ‘discretionary’ spending band. Nothing beats a $8,250 Accent (Canada MSRP, stated in USD) with a 5/100 warranty getting 30MPG on strictly ‘bang for buck’ basis.

Because Honda was out first, they hoovered up a lot of pre-orders, so they will have a strong first 6 months or so of sales…as will the Prius with their legion of hungry customers.

We should get a good idea of just how many go for price (relatively speaking) and how the war is shaping up after that.”
——————————————

Agreed 100% with your assessment. I believe Honda will see some “Honda” hybrid purchasers and some economy hybrid purchasers for the Insight but this light after the initial launch sales burst. Time will tell, but I expect the Prius will continue to dominate based on your reasoning. It is similar reasoning that I foresee good “green” demand for the Volt when it is released. Better performance, much better fuel consumption, and better quality EV ride will translate into demand from the oil conscious customers with adequate financing. There will always be lowest cost buying but as you point out those consumers are probably going to continue to purchase Accents and Yarisi for the most part.

As for GM’s small car woes: they have done a pretty decent job of proving that uninspired, low quality, and me-too small cars from a domestic brand for equal or higher cost do not compete well. I do believe they had and will always have an oportunity to compete with innovation. This, however, was not as “easy” as developing large trucks and SUVs.

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DonC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 6:03 pm

#71 Rashiid on the difference between a PHEV and an E-REV.

There is some symantics at play here. Many people say a PHEV is a parallel hybrid. Some, like the DOE, say it’s just a plug in hybrid. Under the first definition the Volt is not a PHEV. Under the second it is a PHEV40, meaning a plug in hybrid which has an electric range of 40 miles. You have to understand how people are using the term.

That said, there is a very large difference between a serial plug in hybrid and a parallel plug in hybrid. A serial hybrid has a simpler and more robust design. For the first X miles it’s an EV. Then it uses a gen set. As nasaman constantly points out, this means you have two separate propulsion systems (good) but the propulsion systems do not have to work in tandem (which would be more complex and therefore bad).

Parallel set-ups can be many different things, but the only reason for a parallel system is that the system is primarily an ICE which uses an electric assist under various scenarios.

Basically an E-REV is an electric vehicle that can be run on gas if that requires it, while a parallel plug in hybrid is a gas car that uses an electric assist to get better mileage.

#74 Dan Petit – Your point about the decreasing range is well taken, but the larger problem is that the battery pack needed for a 100 mile range will simply be too expensive in the first place. Would you want to pay $35K for a Volt with a 40 mile range or $50K for a Volt with a 100 mile range? BEVs just don’t make economic sense given the price of battery packs. In this sense, john1710a is right that a Volt with a 20 mile EV range makes sense. I want the 40 mile range but that’s me, and even I wouldn’t pay a big premium for an extra 60 miles because I’d rarely use it.

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JEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

73 Larry
“A pure BEV would be more reliable than a hybrid but, for the foreseeable future, the cost of that much extra battery is more than the cost of the ICE.”
———————————————————————————–
Absolutely! The issue is “foreseeable future”.

Is it possible that battery cost/weight reduces significantly in the foreseeable future?

In my opinion, I believe we will see significant cost and weight reductions in batteries. I also hold out hope for the holy grail, or EESTOR type solution.

Also we need to hold out hope for other “out-of-the-box” solutions. Things such as battery swapping are a possibility, but even things such as a chemical swap may be a possibility, you just never know what someone might come up with. What if you could fill up with a charged electrolyte, instead of gas?

Will this be in our foreseeable future? I guess it depends if you invested in a high quality crystal ball.

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JEC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 6:36 pm

77 JEC (me)

From Larry again:
“A pure BEV would be more reliable than a hybrid but, for the foreseeable future, the cost of that much extra battery is more than the cost of the ICE.”
————————————————————————————-
Don’t forget you not just talking the engine. You can dump the radiator, muffler, generator, and a lot of extra luggage that comes with the EREV.

Then also, take into account your total cost of ownership, and the reduction in maintenance, both more substantial and the more minor oil changes.

All these add up over the life of a car. More than you would probably expect.

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Herm Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

A plug-in hybrid is a normal hybrid such as the Prius/Escape/Insight with a bigger than normal battery that can be plugged-in to recharge. Normally you dont plug-in these cars since they have tiny batteries.. a Hybrid is a mix of motor and ICE combination to drive the wheels..

An extended range electric vehicle is a pure electric vehicle.. only the motor drives the wheels, but it has an extra device to keep the battery charge up.. that device can be a separate gas generator, a turbine, a fuel cell, solar cells or even power pickup from the road itself.

Some EREV tow a small trailer with a generator to keep the battery charged up and extend the range of the car.

………………………………………..
#70 Rashiid Amul Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

What is the significant difference between a plug-in hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle?

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Dave G Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

#74 Dan Petit Says: I don’t think Honda upper management really understands the synergy of the whole EREV concept very well. The provincial ways that upper management often become mired into, generally inhibit open-mindedness.
————————————————————————————–
Absolutely true. For Honda, Toyota, GM, and all the others.

Remember that it was only after the movies “Who Killed The Electric Car” and “An Inconvenient Truth” that Bob Lutz started looking into some kind of electric vehicle. And even then, Wagoner and the board wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Then when Tesla came out with the Roadster, Lutz had the ammo he needed to do a concept car. In the end, it was the tremendous public reaction to the concept car that woke people up at GM and got the Volt into production schedule.

My point here is that all big companies are reactive. They wait for something to happen, and then do something about it. Fortunately, GM did something unexpected and fantastic – an electric drive system with no range anxiety – and this will change the whole game. Everyone, including GM, underestimates how big of a deal this will be.

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

#76 DonC ….

leaves out an important plug in hybrid distinction:

There is series (ie volt)
There is parallel (ie plug in escape)
There is series/parallel (ie plug in prius)

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Herm Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

This problem gets easily solved by getting the batteries on a 3 year lease, they are consumable commodities so it makes sense.. most likely the cars will last a very long time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
#74 Dan Petit Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

So BEV’s might be OK there, but I have a hunch that as any BEV sold here gets older, and, the AER gets a lot shorter and shorter and shorter, that the resale value of a BEV here might really plummet directly in proportion to the remaining limited range, and, the increasing percentage of cells becoming marginal or unserviceable. (The more you have, the more you have to go bad).

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Dave G Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

#70 #70 Rashiid Amul Says: What is the significant difference between a plug-in hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle?
————————————————————————————–
PHEVs are typically an option on a regular full hybrid. They replace the NiMH battery with a Li/Ion battery of the same physical size and shape. This doubles the available energy. The result is that you get 7-10 miles of electric range, and even then when you accelerate or drive 70 MPH, the ICE turns on. This is typically called “electric boost”.

Range extended EVs generally have more electric range, and the ICE doesn’t turn on in electric mode. This is called “all-electric range” or AER.

There are some expensive aftermarket Prius conversions that yield up to 30 miles of electric boost, but IIRC, these use the space normally occupied by the spare tire for batteries. Also, I’m not sure how the weight is distributed on these.

It is possible to design a car with a full hybrid drive train (ICE connected to the wheels) and 40 miles or more all-electric range. In fact, the Mercedes-Benz BlueZero E-Plus is just such a car. But this is a concept car with no announced production plans.

So within the next 5-10 years, it looks like PHEVs will have 7-10 miles of electric boost, and EREVs will have 40 miles of all-electric range.

Bottom Line: In the end, no one will care if it’s a PHEV, EREV, series, parallel, full, etc.. It’s the all-electric range number that makes the most difference for consumers.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:44 pm

Right Lane Cruiser,

Yes, a fuel cell vehicle is a series hybrid without the plug. Add more batteries and a plug and the fuel cell becomes a range extender.

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statik Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

Side note of interest:

GM has a update on their viability plan tomorrow. This is normally not any big deal, as we seem to have about a dozen of these a month, however….

This one will be significant for the actual content as GM is legally required by the SEC to give out fair disclosure on it’s operational plans ahead of a debt exchange offer…which is going to happen shortly thereafter.

Translation: All the cards are going to be put up on the table (including news on the latest rumor of Pontiac’s demise)…basically everything GM is considering, or going to attempt between now and their June 1st deadline has to come out.

To that end, all the big dogs will be there, Fritz (CEO),Young (CFO), Clarke (Pres-NA)

…and the telling addition to the nature of this announcement, they have added another face to the cast, Mr. PR himself – Mark “no shame” LaNeve, who will be throwing himself in front of bullets, er…will be fielding all questions with his trademark blinders on, (you might recognize him from his works of fiction/positive spin every month on the auto sales numbers)

Here is GM’s official press release on the matter, it all gets underway at 9AM tomorrow.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=53919

It will also be webcast here:
http://media.gm.com/

/nice to be home

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Herm Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

Details on how hybrids are implemented are only important to fans, by the definition of the word a hybrid means a mix of two things.. in this case is a mix of what makes wheels turn.

Prius/Escape/Insight are true hybrids.. both motor and ice drive the wheels. If they put in a large battery in the Prius then it will be a plug-in hybrid.

Volt is not a hybrid since only a motor is mechanically connected to the wheels..

There is no such thing as a series hybrid, what they meant to say is a series electric vehicle.. there are three varieties there, one uses a small battery and the generator runs all the time to power the motors.. the battery buffers the power and supplies more power for a few seconds.. there are some buses and locomotives setup this way.. the other version is the EREV, GM Volt, it uses a large battery that will give you a few miles of noise free driving then the generator provides the power, the third version uses no battery at all.. the generator is directly hooked up to the motors, locomotives have been this way since the 30s.

The Volt is a series electric vehicle or an EREV, both definitions fit.. but its not a hybrid.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
#81 carcus1 Says:

leaves out an important plug in hybrid distinction:
There is series (ie volt)
There is parallel (ie plug in escape)
There is series/parallel (ie plug in prius)

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old man Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:11 pm

#67 Seymour

I haven’t seen a cray supercomputer or even a photo of one in several years. But from what I do remember those Japanese engineers must have really big desk!!

I have a bad feeling that I just swallowed the bait and the hook is about to be set.

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DonC Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:17 pm

#81 Carcus says “There is series/parallel (ie plug in prius)”

No idea why you think adding a plug to a Prius changes anything. A plug in Prius is still a Prius. Same technologically, it remains an ICE car with an electric assist. All you get with a plug in Prius is a plug and a Prius that gets slightly better gas mileage.

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Dave K. Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

I am still seeing news reports stating that the 1.4L Volt ICE recharges the battery. How can the media not know by now? Think about all the other news items people take for granted that are obviously wrong. Add the intentionally misleading and the politically slanted.

At least most money news programs now disclose if the “guest analyst” owns the stock he’s taking up. This disclosure began about two years ago when a prominent analyst called for a stock to rise only to sell it all on the next mornings bump. We’re being played like turkeys in November.

=D~

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charlie h Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 8:24 pm

#0, Lyle, “Welcome to the plug-in party Honda, we knew you would finally come.”

That seems to me to be patronizing – and to underestimate Honda.

That factory didn’t get planned on a cocktail napkin last evening… Honda has been doing their planning all along.

And Honda is profitable and they are profitable while making small cars, which is where the BEV/RE-EV/PHEV/HEV market is going to be strong. GM still needs big vehicle sales to make money; it’s their most serious Achilles’ heel.

Honda is going to build a car when they like the economics of it and they’re not going to build a car strictly for PR purposes.

And the 10K units of the Volt in the first year, especially against the great reputation that Honda has, means that Honda won’t lose significant share if they wait a year.

—

#75, Koz and #41, Statik,

Yes, Honda will, indeed, have its hands full with the Prius. Tests show that the Prius appears to get better fuel economy and it’s a bigger car inside. The price point of the Insight is attractive but hybird owners aren’t your regular economy car purchasers; they have good incomes and they can afford the extra $2.5K for the Prius, if they like it better than the Insight.

But it’s good to have choices and I admire Honda for getting a car on the road for under $20k (technically under, anyway). Low cost helps to open the market and the great fuel economy can help make a difference in meeting what should be our strategic goals today.

(Quote)
monkeyh8r Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:16 pm

Monkeys have disgusting habits. You definately don’t want them at your dinner parties, unless you’re into that sort of thing.

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carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

#86 Herm,

“Volt is not a hybrid …..”
_____________________________

Ok, well you’ve told me. Now all you have to do is convince ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, Wikipedia, Greencarcongress, autobloggreen, NPR, etc… etc… basically, just about everybody else in the world except GM’s PR department and a few folks on this website.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

Carcus1 says

#76 DonC ….
leaves out an important plug in hybrid distinction:
There is series (ie volt)
There is parallel (ie plug in escape)
There is series/parallel (ie plug in prius)
________________________________

#88 DonC says

No idea why you think adding a plug to a Prius changes anything. A plug in Prius is still a Prius. Same technologically, it remains an ICE car with an electric assist. All you get with a plug in Prius is a plug and a Prius that gets slightly better gas mileage.
________________________

Sorry DonC,

I hope you don’t think I was trying to confuse you with the facts.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 10:16 pm

On “other” types of plug in hybrids.

On the prius: We have only seen results from an aftermarket product (hymotion) and these have been all over the place, from 55 mpg to over 100 mpg. From what I’ve read in articles and from bloggers, my guess is that the real world results would be somewhere around 60 to 70 mpg if you are diligent about plugging in and don’t drive long distances. It’s important to note that this is an aftermarket conversion and does not alter the controlling software much if any. The OEM plug in prius would no doubt go through oodles of programming tests to optimize the increased battery capacity which will certainly give better mpg results than the hymotion conversion.

On the Escape: One confusing issue is that the Escape is a parallel drive but Ford talks about 30 miles of electric only. I think the source I read on the escape drive train must be in error. [so escape is most likely series/parallel, not parallel]
Every once in a while Ford trickles out some mpg info that sounds enticing, (30 mile all electric, 120 city/ 70 to 80 hwy) but, as always, I will want to see real world results by independent testers.

The overall point here is that GM is not producing the only plug in hybrid, and will have to compete against other OEM’s in the “plug in hybrid” category . . . even though GM and many on this website might like to believe otherwise.

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koz Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 11:02 pm

Regarding HEV, PHEV, EREV, BEV, ETC; I agree with DaveG that for most people they will be indistinguishable acronyms. As far as series/parallel terminology, there are different interpretations of which is which. Even with the Volt, which most people are clasifying as a series hybrid or series electric, one could argue it is a purely a BEV with an on-board generator. How is it fundamentally different than a BEV only that occasionally has an RE trailor attached? It could also be argued to be a series hybrid since it has two onboard sources of power but only one mechanical power driver for the wheels. One could also argue it’s a series/parallel electric since the motive electric power can come directly from battery only, generator only, battery+generator, ot generator power through the battery. Really the semantics of what they are called is not that important.

What really matters is how the power is required from the sources based on the configurations. The EV drive only is the only one that practically separates (decouples) the ICE from the instaneous or near-instantaneous power needs of the car. The gen III Prius tries to do this to some degree by offering 3 user selectable performance mode. By selecting economode, you are selecting a slower ICE response to instantaneous power needs which allows the ICE to run more efficiently but at the expense of performance. The Volt’s ICE will be allowed to be hard coded to “super” economode at all times but without a performance hit. Theoretically, Toyota could nearly double the electric motor capacity, max allowable battery power, and power electronics capabilty to obtain similar EV performance to the Volt’s. Then if they added a little more battery capacity, they could basically default to eonomode and rarely see a performance hit. Then if they could somehow reconfigure the layout and suspension of the car to accept a 16kwh battery pack without eating much of the hatchback space, they would have a car with similar range to the Volt and slightly better RE fuel economy. This would be a more expensive configuration because of the larger engine and HSD. It will make more sense to implement a smaller battery plug-in option for the Prius and keep it a lower cost alternative to EREVs for people that can’t make enough use of the larger EREV battery. The risk for Toyota is how fast will battery costs come diwn and how fast will gasoline prices rise? Perhaps some may disagree these will occur at all, but I believe the are both inevitable.

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DonC Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 12:14 am

#93 Carcus says “I hope you don’t think I was trying to confuse you with the facts.”

No problem on two counts. LOL

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 12:42 am

#96 DonC

Right. When posting it’s usually best to consider the audience and apply the KISS principle where appropriate.

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Herm Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:22 am

I’m usually not pedantic, but we have stuck the title of hybrid on anything with wheels and a battery.. and we really meant to say electric vehicle. Thats all the Volt is, an electric vehicle.

What about the UPS hydraulic hybrid trucks?.. they use a hydraulic motor driving the wheels yet have no battery anywhere near them.

BTW, the Prius and Escape have totally identical drivetrain architectures, usually called parallel hybrid, the Insight is a regular gas engine with electric assist.

………………………

#92 carcus1 Says:
April 26th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
#86 Herm,
“Volt is not a hybrid …..”
_____________________________
Ok, well you’ve told me. Now all you have to do is convince ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FOX, Wikipedia, Greencarcongress….

(Quote)
jeffhre Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:39 am

Dave G. “Absolutely true. For Honda, Toyota, GM, and all the others.

Remember that it was only after the movies “Who Killed The Electric Car” and “An Inconvenient Truth” that Bob Lutz started looking into some kind of electric vehicle. ”
____________________________________
Bob Lutz said he had batteries on the brain at Exide and tried to build an electric car at Exide but they kept telling him they are a battery company not a car company . The 11/98 article below states Lutz would start at Exide in 12/98 and Who Killed the Elec. car was released in 2006 according to IMDB cited below.
_________________________
November 1998
See more articles from Automotive+News

CAN LUTZ PUT CHARGE IN AILING EXIDE?

Article from:
Automotive News
Article date:
November 23, 1998
Author:
| Copyright informationCOPYRIGHT 1998 Crain Communications, Inc. This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan. All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group. (Hide copyright information)

DETROIT – Robert Lutz can expect to be jolted out of retirement when he takes command of Exide Corp. on Dec. 1.

Who Killed The Electric Car? USA 23 January 2006 (Sundance Film Festival)

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jeffhre Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:53 am

Bob Lutz started at Exide Battery as CEO in 1998. An Inconvenient Truth (2006 IMDb ) was released nearly eight years after Lutz started at the battery maker.

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sudhaman Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 5:32 am

my god honda saying this is unbelievable. but dont worry GM will prove that it was right in bringing the voltec and e-rev will flourish.

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BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 6:46 am

#70 Rashiid

“OK. Me, of all people, should be asking this question, but here it goes.
What is the significant difference between a plug-in hybrid and a range extended electric vehicle?”

One major difference between the plug-in Prissy and the Volt is that the Volt can drive the US06 driving cycle (aggressive driving) without the ICE coming on. The Prissy cannot, it needs the engine to accelerate and achieve the higher speeds.

Thus a PHEV does not guarantee any “gas free” driving, only a higher blended mpg.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 6:56 am

#44 Guy Incognito

Couldn’t have said it better!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:26 am

John1701a, DonC, Herm, Dave G , BillR,

Thank you all for the explanations.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:29 am

Dave G #83 says,
Bottom Line: In the end, no one will care if it’s a PHEV, EREV, series, parallel, full, etc.. It’s the all-electric range number that makes the most difference for consumers.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. It is one thing that should make sense to every consumer and this will the be gauge (beside money) they use to make the decision to buy.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:30 am

Thus a PHEV does not guarantee any “gas free” driving…
____________________________

Volt does?

Describe the drive home from work, after being parked in a typical lot all day in the north during the winter.

Clearly isn’t “gas free” either.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:35 am

What we’re looking for is objective descriptions of operation, not an absolute.

There’s nothing wrong with using a small amount of gas, especially if the technology which provides that reduction is widespread.

If you truly wanted “gas free”, then Volt isn’t the solution anyway.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:44 am

Study history.

Getting caught up in technical detail without regard to the benefit consumers will actually see is a common problem. Some technologies have failed to make progress due to this.

Look at how GM has dramatically changed over the past year. Today’s revised restructuring plan will change it even more. Taking that step to better educate is absolutely essential.

Remember, the enemy is traditional vehicles… not other hybrids.

(Quote)
Joe Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:44 am

Once GM gets on a level playing field and with those restraints gone, they will once again be the innovators that they once were. Why people give so much credit to the Japanese is beyond me. Being the US is a much larger nation, we have the advantage as long we trade on a level trading field. The Japanese are great copiers and will continue to do so, but will not continue to be the leaders in the auto industry like they have been.

Go GM Go!!!

Below is a long read in how the Japanese got so strong industrially.Well worth the read.

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

(Quote)
statik Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:01 am

Just started now, GM streaming webcast on viability/disclosure

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/?fr_story=FRdamp354355

-21,000 job cuts
-phase out Pontiac brand
-ask the government to take company stock in exchange for half GM’s government debt as part of a major restructuring effort needed to get more government aid.
-offers 225 shares of common stock for every $1,000 in notes held by bondholders as part of a debt-for-equity swap.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:03 am

meanwhile…while plants are idled or shut down all over:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/prius-50k-20090426.html#comments

Toyota To Increase Production of 2010 Prius 25% On Strong Pre-orders

(Quote)
statik Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:03 am

Further to that conference call, a GM press release:

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=827&docid=53944

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statik Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:05 am

Other notes:

HUMMER…not being built after 2009

Pontiac, “out of the brand” by 2010. Discontinued completely by 2010…’niche’ plan is gone.

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC…4 core brands only. Down to 34 nameplates.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:07 am

78 JEC
You can dump the radiator, muffler, generator, and a lot of extra luggage that comes with the EREV
———-
You still need a radiator to cool the battery. Other things u can rid of are the transmission and the belts.

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:26 am

Statik says:

Other notes:

HUMMER…not being built after 2009

Pontiac, “out of the brand” by 2010. Discontinued completely by 2010…’niche’ plan is gone.

Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC…4 core brands only. Down to 34 nameplates.

From the radio today. Losing Pontiac sales puts GM Holden at risk. Not looking good for my Holden Volt.

/Tries to pinch Tags meds.

PS: I went to a wind farm hearing today. Ironically, it was exactly 40 miles from my driveway to where I parked across the street from the hall.
To shamelessly steal from LOTR.
There and back on one gallon of gas!
By Opel Ampera

/Well, I thought it was funny!

(Quote)
ArkansasVolt Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:29 am

#4 tom

I very rarely agree with an entire post like that, but I agree with every word: especially your tidbit about taking gas to help people afford electric cars. As soon as PHEVs become more prevalent, then the tax on gas should go up significantly to encourage EVs.

(Quote)
RB Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:34 am

#112 statik –> Thanks for the link.

(Quote)
Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:36 am

Honda already has a whole lot of the development work done and “wheels on the road” in the form of the fuel cell vehicle. This should be very interesting.

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:37 am

UAW agrees to concessions for Chrysler. Likely points to similar deal for GM. Will all the union critics here give the UAW and credit? Will they now train their fire on the bondholders who are now “standing in the way” of saving GM and Chrysler?

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/UAW-reportedly-reaches-deals-Fiat/story.aspx?guid=%7B5EF65662%2D9B6F%2D456C%2DA8BD%2D34D3A8BAA7B8%7D

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:39 am

Statik @ 112
From the link:

Expect to seek bankruptcy relief if the exchange offers are not consummated

Holly Siht, well at least we are in NO doubt as to where Fritz stands.
So will the Government blink (again) on May 1 with Chrysler?

/Tune in for more of “As the Volt Turns”.
//OK, that one was weak, but hey, its got to be the end of this thread.

Do I get a prize for guessing the topic of the new one?
/Does Statik for posting the link?

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:40 am

GM stock up 32%

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:45 am

MarkinWI

Thanks for the link.
IMHO I never though it was any one group that brought things to this stage.

It’s certainly unfair to put all the blame on the workers.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:06 am

I think if i was a bondholder I would take the deal. Roughly 50cents on the dollar, and if they truely do breakeven or become profitable in 2010, you could get all your $ back. This seems like a good deal vs. getting a few pennies on the dollar in a bankruptcy court.

(Quote)
Luke Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:25 am

Seymour @ 67,

I have had the luxury of visiting GM engineering and Honda engineering. It is no contest here. The average Honda engineer has a Cray Supercomputer at their desk whereas the average GM engineer works with a low powered intel PC.

I think there are a few things that I need to fill you in about the supercomputer industry:

Crays have never been optimized to do CAD or interactive graphics. They’ve GENERATED lots of great graphics, but there’s a big difference between doing the math to for a movie, and actually playing the movie. Also, Cray has been bought sold and split so many times that it’s nearly unrecognizable from the company it once was. They still make supercomputers and pushing the envelope — but their newest machines serve a tiny niche in a normal-sized niche market.
Most supercomputers are built out of those same Intel PCs. They usually use high-performance hardware to connect to each other, and to the storage, but they’re basically the same PC you’d have on your desk. Read the Wikipedia article for “Beowulf Cluster” for more information.
Most CAD software (especially Autocad) is only available for Windows. That’s a bummer for those of us who prefer Linux, Macintosh, and traditional Unixes — but, hey, I work for my users when I’m on the clock, so I’ll get over it.
The new trend in HPC (high performance computing) is to actually video cards to do the calculations. When programmed cleverly, some of of the newer nVidia (and ATI) video cards can act as a math coprocessor — and they’re as powerful as mid-sized cluster-supercomputers from 5 years ago and very cheap. They take special care to program (and to break the job up into the correct kind of pieces), but it’s pretty impressive stuff…

So I can say with some relevant experience that if I were going to going to build a system for a car company’s engineering department, My first reflex would be to put a PC with a big video card and Windows/Autocad/Office on everyone’s desk, and then put a supercomputer in a closet for everyone to share. Of course, if the engineers’ needs vary, my solution would have to vary to match.

A Cray on everyone’s desk would be counterproductive d!ck-waving. Giving everyone access to a Cray (or an SGI Altix or a Beowulf Cluster or any number of other HPC solutions) from their desktop CAD-station, on the other hand, seems like a way to get work done.

(Quote)
Darius Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:33 am

The Nikkei reports that Hitachi Ltd. has developed a high-power lithium-ion battery for hybrid-electric vehicles. The battery reportedly has specific power of 4,500 W/kg— a power increase of 70% over its current models, and 50% over a new version Hitachi plans to begin mass-producing next year………

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/hitachi-4500-20090426.html

What can be the price of such wonder?

(Quote)
Mitch Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:39 am

Interesting…

http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04-22/news/the-flip-side-of-the-perfect-prius/1

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Seymour @ 67,

I have had the luxury of visiting GM engineering and Honda engineering. It is no contest here. The average Honda engineer has a Cray Supercomputer at their desk whereas the average GM engineer works with a low powered intel PC.
———–

Also, did you know if you keep adding monitors to your desk work ouput increases linearly?!

Not that I’m agreeing w/your computer assesment, but some of the brightest people I know wouldnt even consider using a calculator. Its not the tools, its the person operating them. GM, Ford, Chrysler all use powerful workstations for their 3-D modeling. (ie Unix Spark stations). As for software, I believe Ford is Fides, GM is Unigraphix, and Chrysler is Catia.

(Quote)
MarkinWI Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:42 am

NZDavid @ #122 – Now David, don’t go getting all reasonable on me. We Americans pride ourselves on our blind partisanship based upon ideology with a total disregard for facts (just check out Fox “news” and MSNBC). In all seriousness, it is a very good first step towards returning GM and Chrysler to viability. Next up: bond-holders, and in the on-deck circle we have a Canadian-style health care system.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:55 am

The application for that new battery in a Volt is to allow a low cost 5-10 mile electric range option, much lighter weight and cost and perhaps no cooling requirements for the battery.

It could also lower the cost/weight on a Prius while increasing the power of its motors, perhaps allowing a reduction in ICE size also.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:56 am

#106 (your reply to #102)

Thus a PHEV does not guarantee any “gas free” driving…
____________________________

Volt does?

Describe the drive home from work, after being parked in a typical lot all day in the north during the winter.

Clearly isn’t “gas free” either.
——————————-

The US06 driving cycle is conducted at about 60F, so your comment is non-applicable.

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 10:01 am

Its funny how pple think US car quality is bad and how it transfers to their thoughts on American engineering.

Here’s an interesting article on this in this month’s issue of Design News.
http://www.designnews.com/article/196096-They_Said_What_.php?rssid=20026&text=they+said+what

(Quote)
statik Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 10:07 am

Side note to Lyle:

I had a ton of emails to go through this morning after my trip and didn’t get to yours in a timely fashion. I send you a ditty back.

/sorry about that

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 11:25 am

Off topic…

J1772 connector

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/26/sae-2009-yazakis-booth-proudly-displays-j1772-connector/

(Quote)
Van Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 11:36 am

NZDavid @ 122, yes it would be wrong to put all the blame for the failure of GM on the workers. How about some of the blame? They voted for the Union leadership which exhorted contracts that made GM non-competitive. Now it remains the essential reality that GM failed due to mismanagement with government regulation being ineffective in giving stockholders actual control over GM’s board. Thus both meritorious performance went down as compensation went up in the ranks of leadership.

So in the film, Who killed GM, we have a trifecta.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 11:45 am

The US06 driving cycle is conducted at about 60F, so your comment is non-applicable.
___________________________

WINTER IS DRAMATICALLY COLDER THAN THAT !!!

HOW CAN YOU DISMISS THE AFFECTS OF LOWER TEMPS?

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 11:58 am

@john1701a

“HOW CAN YOU DISMISS THE AFFECTS OF LOWER TEMPS?”

My guess is they “Assume” the battery’s climate control system is working fine? Maybe?
I dunno, I just thought i’d join the conversation……lol

(Quote)
Luke Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

k-dawg @ 131,

Its funny how pple think US car quality is bad and how it transfers to their thoughts on American engineering.

Yup, that explains all of those hard-working foreign engineers who come to US universities (such as the one I work for) to learn advanced the techniques that they can apply to their field.

It’s a bummer that our immigration laws rarely let them stay in the US and use those hard-earned skills here, though…

(Quote)
Mitch Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

#135 John

What are the effects of lower temps?

(Quote)
BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

To those interested,

John1701a always tries to take exception or find fault with any comment that illustrates the superiority of the Volt to his Prissy.

Don’t believe me? Try to find one comment he has made where he acknowledges the Volt may be better in any way, shape, or form.

In post # 102, I responded to Rashiid’s question regarding the difference between an E-REV and a PHEV. I noted the difference being that the PHEV Prissy cannot drive the US06 driving cycle without using the ICE. The Volt can! For more in depth analysis, see the presentation on this page. It illustrates the superior fuel savings and lower emissions for the E-REV design.

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/02/driving_the_vol.html

Since I noted that the Volt is “gas free” in this driving cycle, while his beloved plug-in Prissy is not, John responds by alluding to the fact that the Volt will start its ICE when the battery pack is cold. So therefore, he claims the Volt is not “gas free”, as I noted in my comment. However, my comment pertains to the US06 driving cycle, not all driving.

Of course, many Volts will be sold to residents of CA, FL, and other areas where the temperatures rarely go below freezing. But for those in the north country, and for those 30 days per year when it is below 0 F, minus those 0F days when you have plugged in and conditioned the battery via the grid, perhaps 0.5% of the time the collective fleet of Volts will need gas (or E85) when first starting their journey.

Does this explanation make it better for you, John?

My comment stands. The Volt can drive the US06 driving cycle gas free!!

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

Promoting “gas free” in a vague way and insulting others is hardly constructive.

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

From Bill R’s link, looks like an EV will get cut down by approximately 40% in electric only range when driven on the US06 cycle vs a much milder urban cycle. (chart, p. 21)

Here’s an article that discusses how “engine control strategy” can be used to increase efficiency in a plug in series/parallel hybrid:

Argonne Study Shows Aggressive Driving Can Significantly Reduce Rated All Electric Range in PHEV, Suggests Engine Control Strategy to Address That
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/argonne-study-s.html

This is where I think the plug in prius may very well have the edge on the volt. It seems to me that they have so many different variables to play with. Everything from changing the battery size, to altering all this programming. I would imagine the computer could learn your driving style and habits and then optimize the amount of blending for maximum fuel economy. Even better if the user could input his projected daily trips into the gps and the computer would make additional adjustments off of that. This really opens up a huge realm of possibilities and customization for the Plug in Hybrid driver. IMO

I wouldn’t be surprised if Toyota would optimize the programming that they might be able to get real world 80 or better mpg out of a prius with a relatively small (say 5 or 6 kwh) battery. This may be why Ford occasionally leaks out that they’re getting very high mpg off of the plug in escape. (hopefully not because they’ve got a great big battery and are only doing very short trips)

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

#139, BillR: “The Volt can drive the US06 driving cycle gas free!!”

No, it can’t. If you believe this to be true, then I invite you to buy (or rent) one and do so with it. What? Can’t be bought or rented?

Yes, it’s true that the PHEV Prius also can’t be bought or rented today… but its arriving in showrooms with everything in place except the extra-capacity battery this coming month. You can go to the Toyota web site and look up pricing for the various trim levels today. When the batteries are available, a PHEV Prius is a low-risk upgrade to an existing platform. Toyota is positioned to do whatever makes the best economic sense.

Third-party marketers will most likely make it possible to drive the Plain-Jane Prius gas-free, for those who really want to go gas-free. Maybe you will have to have a light foot to achieve that but no foot will touch the production Volt for another year and more.

Unlike the Volt, which will be all-new at the end- of 2010 (maybe… maybe not), the Prius PHEV will be a proven, reliable vehicle except for one new component. The Volt will be a grab bag of unproven components from a manufacturer with a track record of failure.

#139, BillR: “But for those in the north country, and for those 30 days per year when it is below 0 F, minus those 0F days when you have plugged in and conditioned the battery via the grid, perhaps 0.5% of the time the collective fleet of Volts will need gas (or E85) when first starting their journey.”

By the way, that’s a lot of numbers offered with no basis whatever in fact. Batteries start to lose power at higher temps than 0F; you have no idea what’s going to be achievable or not.

(Quote)
Right Lane Cruiser Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

#62 carcus1

I did sit in the back — it was pretty funny to see. I sat in the cutaway version of the vehicle… At 6′5″ my head was about 3″ above the roofline when I sat on the side that wasn’t covered by the roof.

It wouldn’t bother me too much — I fit just fine in the front and I’m pretty sure I’d be very unlikely to sit in the back. I’ve never ridden in the back of my Elantra (bought new back in 2002).

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

#143 RLC,

Yeah, it’s a relatively minor fault. How many times do you see an adult sitting in the back seat of a car anyway?

Still, at 6′5″ I’d think the Prius (or Fusion hybrid, if you wanted to spend that much more) might be a consideration for comfort.

I thought the Insight interior had a good look to it, futuristic dash and clean, utilitarian interior, my only other negative on it is that it seemed pretty firm (stiff seats, hard plastic arm rests) and might be a little uncomfortable on long drives. The visibility seemed better to me than the Prius.

(Quote)
Mark Z Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

BEV or E-Rev? Why do you think GM crushed all those EV-1s? Perhaps leased cars running out of power? The truth is the lithium-ion battery can be permanently damaged if you allow the charge to hit zero. E-Rev helps prevent that, but only if you use the car or keep it plugged in.

Still not convinced? Download the Tesla Roadster Owners Manual and read pages 5-2 and 5-4. I plan to memorize those pages before taking ownership of the Tesla Sedan.

http://www.teslamotors.com/images/owners/Owners_Manual_online_wo_chapter_breaks.zip

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Luke Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

BillR @ 139,

John1701a always tries to take exception or find fault with any comment that illustrates the superiority of the Volt to his Prissy.

The Prius has one major thing on the Volt: there’s one sitting in my driveway now. Mass producing the Volt is a theoretical possibility. The Prius, on the other hand, is a very real and very useful little car. Whether or not the Prius matches your needs/tastes/peeves, it’s certainly an appropriate goalpost against which to judge the next generation of green cars.

BTW, quit it with the childish namecalling. It doesn’t make me like the Prius sitting in my driveway any less. Also, such childishness really undermines the credibility your otherwise useful posts. I’m pretty sure I’m half your age — why do I have to be the grown-up here?

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john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

Prissy
_________________

It’s really unfortunate that insults like that have been allowed to continue for so long. In fact, you specifically been guilty of it for a whole year now…

#73 http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/25/lutz-confidence-in-volts-2010-timeline-is-growing/

Time has come to finally respond. Perhaps a moderator will chime in as a result…

Chevy Vole. Noun: The winning by one player of all the tricks of a deal. Idiom: To venture everything on the chance of great rewards.

Strangely appropriate, eh?

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:13 pm

Thank you to those attempting to bring discussions forward.

It’s too bad that it went on for so long.

Advancing beyond shallow things, like namecalling, is desperately needed. With such a profound shake-up in the auto industry happening right now, there’s much to be lost. Gains are possible though, if you choose your allies wisely. Why fight the very vehicle helping to push the mainstream into battery & motor use?

(Quote)
carcus1 Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

#141 (me) add:

Plug in Escape:

Ford is using a 10 kwh battery. As time goes on the report seem to be trending more towards the high side of the mpg (120 mpg)* when driven under 30 miles distance in between charges. That’s pretty impressive considering the size of the vehicle and the battery.

Ford E85 Plug-In Hybrid is Hot
http://www.greencar.com/articles/ford-e85-plug-hybrid-hot.php

*Earlier reports were only in the 60 mpg and 80 mpg (city/highway/undetermined), perhaps 2 years of programming the system for optimum blend of gas and electric power is paying off.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:16 pm

I’m glad you guys enjoy your Prissy.

See link in post #139 for vehicle with far superior numbers in terms of gasoline reductions and lower emissions.

Happy Motoring!

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

Smug.

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BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

John,

I will always call your car the Prissy. Sorry you don’t like it, but that’s me. Call the Volt anything you want. I could give a rat’s a$$.

I am typically very honest and blunt, and if you don’t like that, well, that is your prerogative. I have gone on record saying the Prissy is the most efficient car currently on the market, and it has definately made a step in the right directlon. It is not, however, the final technology for mainstream personal transportation (nor is the Volt for that matter). Technology marches on.

The Volt, however, is a major step in oil and emissions reduction beyond the Prissy IMO. You never seem to concede that possibility, but instead always divert to discussions about the next generation Prissy, a plug-in Prissy, or insist that GM “Show Me The Data” SMTD. I guess that’s to be expected from a Prissy fanboy.

http://john1701a.com/

Take this comment as you like, but other than calling your car a Prissy, everything else I have written seems true from my experience.

So there it is, brutal honesty.

(Quote)
Michael Robinson Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 1:06 am

Honda is NOT interested in plug-in cars. The hydrogen Clarity uses
a small Lithium ION battery to provide bursts of power when needed.
Honda believes that it is simpler to perfect hydrogen cars than it is
to perfect plug-in cars and I do too. If Honda is the first company
to come out with a commercialized fuel cell car, goodbye GM.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 4:52 am

The Prius is here and now, the Volt a distant dream from a failed company..

If you really want a major step, and closer to production than the Volt, consider the Mitsubishi iMiev.

You should not call anyone a fanboy, glass houses and all that.. :0

…………………………..

#152 BillR Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

The Volt, however, is a major step in oil and emissions reduction beyond the Prissy IMO. You never seem to concede that possibility, but instead always divert to discussions about the next generation Prissy, a plug-in Prissy, or insist that GM “Show Me The Data” SMTD. I guess that’s to be expected from a Prissy fanboy.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 4:57 am

the scary part is that the next generation of the Prius, or just a plug-in battery as an option is far far more likely than a Volt in production past year one or two.

(Quote)
Herm Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 5:08 am

The Volt will not be a car that can be put into storage for extended periods without plugging it in.. eventually the battery will be damaged.

There probably is a constant drain on the battery that must be disconnected before its put into storage.

………………………….

#145 Mark Z Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
BEV or E-Rev? Why do you think GM crushed all those EV-1s? Perhaps leased cars running out of power? The truth is the lithium-ion battery can be permanently damaged if you allow the charge to hit zero. E-Rev helps prevent that, but only if you use the car or keep it plugged in.

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 8:12 am

#150, BillR, “I’m glad you guys enjoy your Prissy. See link in post #139 for vehicle with far superior numbers in terms of gasoline reductions and lower emissions. Happy Motoring!”

“Happy Motoring!” is an appropriate salute to Prius owners. The vehicle linked in #139 is not currently available. Happy Waiting!

(Quote)
Luke Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

BillR’s insistence that name-calling is “honest and blunt” really makes me want to put on a Utilikilt and slap him around a little:
http://www.utilikilts.com/?page_id=10
All in good humor, of course.

It’s likely that the Volt will preferable to the Prius — but only if the Volt is ever manufactured. In the meantime, the Prius in my driveway gets the groceries every week, fetches small items from the hardware store, and is perfectly comfortable during for the occasional thousand-mile road trip. That car has delivered over 100k miles of service to my girlfriend and me, with minimal maintenance and top-tier mileage. It’s a tough standard to beat, but Lyle’s test drive suggests that they’re still in the game.

May the Kilt Fairy visit BillR the next time he insists on name-calling, instead of proper grownup discourse.

(For the humor-impaired: I’m kidding about the slapping him around part!)

(Quote)
Hoang Says:
April 28th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

Do you guys see the point here. GM is going at a right direction with the Volt. Howerver, this right direction is not good enough to win Japanese car makers that are going in good and right direction.

It is like you to have to build good infratructures first before other industries can take off. My point is developing and manufaturing battery is a must to win the next wave of vehicles and I don’t see GM in this direction.

My 2 cents

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Ken Grubb Says:
April 29th, 2009 at 11:48 am

Even Nissan has recently come on board indicating they see the merit of plugins as a bridge to pure EVs–which CEO Carlos Ghosn is hell bent for leather to build.

(Quote)
joe obrien Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:21 am

LOL @ #6

(Quote)

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