Apr 24

The Chevy Volt’s Electric Range is 40 Miles in Both Highway and City Driving

 

It is often asked whether the Volt’s 40 mile all-electric range (AER) will be applicable both to city and highway driving. Other questions include how driving aggressiveness and the use of heating and air-conditioning might affect range. I had a chance to discuss these matters with Nick Zeilinksi. Nick is GM’s Director of Advanced Technology Vehicle Engineering.

Nick describes the driving test cycles used to test the Volt and other cars. “There are three primary driving cycles, the EPA city cycle, the EPA highway cycle, and the US06,” he says. “The US06 is a very aggressive driving schedule with a lot of high speeds over 70 mph and wide open throttle.”

“The city and the highway cycles are a little bit milder than the average driver (drives),” he says. But for the Chevy Volt he confirms that “on both the city and highway schedule we are achieving the 40 mile AER.”

“The city and highway electric ranges are within about a mile of one another,” he says. “There isn’t much difference.”

Nick explains that the test cycles include “a standard set of accessory loads,” but that “air conditioning is not included.” He says the testing “also assumes a 60 F to 65 F degree temperature.”

“When we do our calculations we include parasitic loads,” he says referring to computer modeling. “In mule development we are trying to bring those to a minimum because they take away from driving range.”

This entry was posted on Friday, April 24th, 2009 at 5:38 am and is filed under Performance. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 159


  1. 1
    Kagato

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:07 am)

    First!
    :)

    They better consider heating as well as AC. We get 4 seasons up here in the Great White North.


  2. 2
    Jim I

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:07 am)

    This testing shows that the Volt will perform as promised!

    Should really be fun to drive.

    :)


  3. 3
    nasaman

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:13 am)

    Good topic, Lyle! I find it disappointing that Zeilinksi sidesteps giving any range figure for the US06 aggressive cycle after mentioning it, however, and instead quotes results only for the much milder EPA city & highway cycles.


  4. 4
    Gsned57

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:15 am)

    That’s awesome news! I would imagine you are 40 miles limited by software. To get the 10 year warrenty on the battery they limit the AER to 40 miles independent of how you are driving. Good news for drivers like me who have a bit of a lead foot and %95 highway driving. Bad news for Hypermilers (but honestly who wants to drive behind them anyways). This should eliminate %99 of the Volt badmouthing once it comes out. My biggest concern for the long term success of the car has always been people driving on the highway at 70mph only getting 25 AER and then bitching about it not living up to the 40 claim (not that they wouldn’t have reason to). I’m very happy to read this!


  5. 5
    jdsv

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:24 am)

    This is fantastic news! Within 1 AER of each other is way better than I (and probably many others) expected. They could differ by 5 or 6 AER and still be okay for me – as long as highway driving is just slightly less efficient and not a back breaker, this car gets a big green stamp of approval from this commuter!

    NPNS!! =D~~


  6. 6
    Exp_EngTech

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:27 am)

    This electric car has 40 mile range and is fun to drive !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=369h-SEBXd8


  7. 7
    Bruce

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:30 am)

    I live in South Florida. Maybe a solar panel in the roof to help with the AC. What is the range with AC? It does get a little hot down here especially if you have to wear a suit to work. Should I consider a 2 seat Volt (if there will be one with a convertible)? Nice thought


  8. 8
    CDAVIS

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:31 am)

    ______________________________________________________
    40 Miles All Electric = 80+% goodbye Gas!
    ______________________________________________________
    Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
    ______________________________________________________


  9. 9
    StevePA

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:31 am)

    Had to chuckle at the description of the US06 driving cycle…pretty much the norm in our new mid-South environs – getting on any interstate you pretty much have to be buckled in and ready to flog the old ride up to speed in a big hurry – 75mph flow in all lanes…for about 10 miles. Then its dealing with erratic, slower traffic and the antsy lane changers. Couple of wrecks a week along that stretch of I-40 heading in to Nashville. Just about all of them involve pickup trucks. Hmm.
    So GM, what will my driving range be? :-)


  10. 10
    Dave G

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:51 am)

    Great news!


  11. 11
    Adrian

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:59 am)

    It does sound like GM has really done their homework. Too bad they won’t make money on the Volt. Also, too bad the buyer will spend more money owning a Volt than a competing car. Someday, this will change.

    Only the wealthy getting to own cutting edge stuff. It is that bling factor. Then they drive the price in a trickle down effect so the masses can buy it. Did I just say trickle down? :)


  12. 12
    Dave G

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:01 am)

    #9 StevePA Says: Had to chuckle at the description of the US06 driving cycle…pretty much the norm in our new mid-South environs… So GM, what will my driving range be?
    ————————————————————————————–
    Definately less that 40 miles, but probably not a whole lot less. I doubt it’s not going down to something like 25 miles on US06.


  13. 13
    Neil

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:02 am)

    >Couple of wrecks a week along that stretch of I-40 heading in to Nashville

    I know what you mean. I’ve been down that stretch enough times. BTW, ever been to Donut Den in Green Hills?

    If I was to guess, the range wouldn’t be dramatically lower with bad driving habits. My uneducated guess would be 10-20%.


  14. 14
    Guy Incognito

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:13 am)

    You would think that the Volt might actually do better in city driving than highway.
    Would’nt the stop & go of city driving give greater recovery of energy via regen braking?

    If I’m wrong on this, what is it that I’m not seeing that would cause the Volt to have a 40 mile range regardless of whether its city or highway miles?


  15. 15
    dee

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:15 am)

    GM will make money on the Volt, thats a fact. GM adds all kinds of costs to the production cost of the Volt that have nothing to do with the profit or lost on a Volt sale. Battery cost will drop with production and time. GM needs to ramp up battery production to over 500,000 units as fast as possible. The Cruze, SRX ,Nox and Terrain should all have a E-flex model in the next 12 months. GM needs to make the cars of the future in mass. Whats the point in making the Volt and you can’t buy one for two years after intro due to only low production.


  16. 16
    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:27 am)

    Let’s hear it for the think tank of engineers who’ve obviously thought this through from soooo many angles – especially the inclusion of the consumer behavior and it’s effects on performance (and acceptance).
    Be well,
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS********Independence (from oil) DAY 2010


  17. 17
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:31 am)

    Zeilinksi – “The name’s Zeilinksi. I make ‘cars’ for the American working man, because that’s who I am, and that’s who I care about.”

    Tommy – “He’s got funny hair”


  18. 18
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:33 am)

    14. Guy Incognito Says:
    You would think that the Volt might actually do better in city driving than highway.
    Would’nt the stop & go of city driving give greater recovery of energy via regen braking?
    ===========

    You will lose the power from regen braking when you accelerate again.


  19. 19
    old man

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:34 am)

    This is some of the best news for Volt sales!! I agrees with #15 Dee, Ramp up production and additional models ASAP!! This is a deal maker for most drivers who do some highways driving most days. My daughters live about 40 miles [round trip] away and I had assumed I would burn some gas everytime I visited them. Now I dare hope that I will not buy gas except for the three trips I take every year.

    DANG, NOW I WANT THIS CAR EVEN MORE AND I DIDN’T THINK THAT WAS POSIBLE.


  20. 20
    statik

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:38 am)

    Wow, I just happened by the ‘interwebs’ before heading out…to Magic Kingdom (again, sigh) and got a new thread .

    It is too bad we are not getting ‘regular’ driving, a/c-heat, normalized temperatures and loads still…but 40 under ideal conditions is still a pretty decent start.

    In keeping with my vacation I am trying to limit my posts to one, maybe 2 a day and stay positive…sorry, thats the best I can do at the moment.

    (How many times can a person go to Disney? Unfortunately for me, my son loooooooves It’s a Small World….so we ride, again, and again, and…)

    /have a good day fellas


  21. 21
    Gsned57

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:38 am)

    14 Guy Incognito

    “You would think that the Volt might actually do better in city driving than highway.
    Wouldn’t the stop & go of city driving give greater recovery of energy via regen braking?”

    You are right in your thinking. More so than the regen braking though is wind resistance that really kills the efficiency at 70 MPH speeds. Maybe that’s not too big a deal with the volt because of the low resistance and wind tunnel testing. This is why I think they probably have some software governor in there that will use either 50% of the battery or 40 miles AER (whatever comes first).

    If you drive 40 miles city and only use 30% of your battery before the ICE kicks in you get your 40 and your battery isn’t taxed very hard at all. I think this is the overkill battery conservation measures one of the posts prior hinted at. I think GM is going to do whatever they can to make sure we get 10 years 150,000 miles out of this battery.

    #16 Tag, I’m with you on that. Congrats to the engineers for achieving 40 AER highway and city. This is going to go a very long way towards public approval. I wish my wife’s prius got its advertised MPG, but I put up with it because I don’t want to change the way I drive (I went to the same driving school as StevePA I think).


  22. 22
    monkeyh8r

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:41 am)

    Did you know that a group of baboons is sometimes called a “congress”? Very fitting IMO.


  23. 23
    BillR

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:49 am)

    This isn’t news to me:

    “According to Jon Lauckner, vice president for global program management at GM, the Volt can complete six of the 11-mile-long city cycles or the same number of 10.3-mile highway cycles on one battery charge.”

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/23/MNI4144RL4.DTL&type=printable

    My analysis indicates the Volt should only need 130 Wh/mile in the highway cycle and 180 Wh/mile for the city cycle. This puts AER for the highway cycle over 60 miles (based on 8 kWh).

    Here is my analysis in more depth:

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541

    I thought GM was shooting for 40 miles AER in the US06 cycle, but I will need to research that some more.


  24. 24
    old man

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:51 am)

    #22 I didn’t think I would ever respond to you but, dang, that was FUNNY


  25. 25
    PLJ

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:53 am)

    I wonder what the EPA window sticker will say re: MPG. Do they have a formula for this yet?


  26. 26
    john1701a

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:58 am)

    He says the testing “also assumes a 60 F to 65 F degree temperature.”
    __________________________

    That’s pretty much ideal conditions.

    When will we be getting real-world info?

    Li-Ion chemistry behaves differently when the temperature is below freezing. Here in the north it can remain that cold for months. The temperature will routinely drop below 0°F and stay there for several days in a row too.

    Heater use will impact the battery-pack quite a bit. We’d like to know how much.


  27. 27
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:58 am)

    @25 PLJ
    That has been discussed a few times. I think the consensus was that it would be ‘over 100mpg’.

    I still think this is misleading. Should leave it separate. Give the AER range, then the mpg in range-extender mode.


  28. 28
    Nelson

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:02 am)

    Well if they didn’t test with air conditioning, I hope they test with the window open. :)
    oops there goes the COD!

    NPNS!


  29. 29
    FME III

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:16 am)

    #3 Nasaman nailed it. Zeilinski totally sidestepped the question of the US06 range, as well as the effect that AC would have on range.
    These are the real-world questions we want answered.

    Lyle, you have to get tougher! Come see me in N.C. and I’ll put you through Investigative Reporter school.


  30. 30
    FME III

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:21 am)

    #26 John1701a Heater use will impact the battery-pack quite a bit. We’d like to know how much.

    Not necessarily. The pack has to be cooled, so some of that heat could be siphoned off to the cabin. However, that’s speculation. We don’t know how they are handling the cabin heat.

    AC is the real test, ’cause they gotta cool the batter pack AND the cabin in hot weather.


  31. 31
    ArkansasVolt

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:26 am)

    I am anxious to know how the gas engine does as well. I will be going over the 40 mile range just going one way.


  32. 32
    Right Lane Cruiser

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:31 am)

    Gsned57 #4

    I certainly hope it is NOT software limited to 40mi! I’m one of those hypermilers you seem to dread, but I rarely get on the highway — I prefer back roads that aren’t as highly traveled and I stay on 2 lane roads as much as possible so any and everyone can just pass me. The point is, if the Volt isn’t software limited to 40mi I’ll be able to squeeze somewhere in the neighborhood of 60mi of range out of it by using my usual driving practices around town. This is rather important to me as my work commute is right at 45mi round trip.

    As for better AER around town, you betcha. Regen will actually hurt you in comparison to simply conserving momentum, though. This has long been known by EV drivers, and it will be obvious once people get the chance to try the Volt (if they give light timing a chance, anyway).


  33. 33
    ElectRich

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:32 am)

    An MIT start up levantpower.com has a power generating shock absorber called the GenShock. It is reported that it can generate up to 1KW per unit. Adding them to the VOLT could possibly maintain the 40 mile AER with AC on. Is AER 40 at night too? GenShocks might help there also! Hope by 2012 there is a model under $25000.


  34. 34
    PLJ

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:33 am)

    k-dawg @27
    ——————-

    I think it should be a dual rating, like say “40/40 all electric range.”

    Then another MPG rating like “150 MPG assuming typical driving patterns.” Or this could be a range like “50 to 200 MPG depending on your driving patterns.”


  35. 35
    solo

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:46 am)

    John1701a:

    Don’t worry about winter range. The first generation won’t be sold much outside California, Florida, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida.


  36. 36
    Sheltonjr

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:48 am)

    Today is December 30th, 2011. Many of us have our Volts now and are still addicted to this site and have to visit it every day. But today is a special day. We can input into Lyle’s special web page the number of miles driven and the amount of gasoline we used.

    Since I only drive 20 miles round trip each day to work plus usually one errand after work, and the occasional trip to the airport or vacation. I expect my entry to like this:

    Miles traveled: 12,000
    Gasoline used: 24 gallons (4 fillups)

    My Oil footprint for miles travelled: 500 MPG

    Thats why I am looking foward the having the Volt so badly. With the expected much lower maintenance, the Volt is going to be Win, Win situation.

    #31 ArkansasVolt numbers wont looks as good, but with the efficiency of a constant RPM Genset and the engine only having to meet average power requirements because the Volt will draw on its reserve power in battery for the mometary quick accelerations required. ArkansasVolt should still have much better numbers than either a Prius or Plugin Prius.

    Dreamin of the day. I only wish it was a convertible.


  37. 37
    LWesson

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:53 am)

    The ideal operating parameter is so out of kilter with much of the nation. It would be nice here in Texas to have 65º days year round but even Satan goes back to Hades come the Texas Summer months.

    This engineer mindset is so couched INSIDE a comfy box that it is small wonder that GM has problems. Recall the Shuttle and the O Rings on the solid rocket booster? Real World conditions included freezing even in Florida but what did it matter… .

    ElectRich is on the mark to suggest shocks that can generate electricity to supplement power beyond the Magic Kingdom temp conditions. Hire this guy, GM.

    Carcus, Big Nose Kate’s eyes do glow.


  38. 38
    Van

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:03 am)

    How far apart could the city versus highway mileage be and still be within “about 1 mile of each other?” I would say less than 3 miles. So a 35 city, 32 highway would be consistent with the statement.

    Next we have driving cycles and driving schedules with the implication they are the same thing. But are they? And are they achieving a 40 mile range using only 8 kWh? Once a corporation loses the trust of car buyers, and they suspect the statements might be calculated to imply more than actuality, the buyers puts their money in something recommended by CR. And those cars are not built in the rust belt.


  39. 39
    Tom H

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:04 am)

    k-dawg Says:
    April 24th, 2009 at 7:58 am
    @25 PLJ
    That has been discussed a few times. I think the consensus was that it would be ‘over 100mpg’.

    I still think this is misleading. Should leave it separate. Give the AER range, then the mpg in range-extender mode.
    ——————————————————————
    If GM passes up the opportunity to market the Volt as the 105 mpg car, they are nuts.

    If the public sees a 50mpg Prius for $25k and a 40AER/50mpg Volt for $29k, they will go for the Prius every time. Cheaper, same MPG, and dont need to deal with that AER stuff which we dont understand anyway.

    The average consumer is not a slide rule jockey. Most Americans are mathematically illiterate.


  40. 40
    Bruce

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:09 am)

    Very interesting vaporware.


  41. 41
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:18 am)

    Does the AER change when the ICE kicks in, or does it just keep going with those mileage figures till it runs out of gas? Also, what is total range on a full tank of gas? I’ve heard 400 and 700 miles… And wasn’t there a post here once that the EPA rated VOLT at a 100 mpg equivelant?


  42. 42
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:19 am)

    From the article: “The city and the highway cycles are a little bit milder than the average driver (drives),”

    I always find it funny when someone buys a car that is posted by the mfg as say 40mpg, and then they say how they are really getting 55mpg. Either they are driving downhill with the wind all the time, or they dont know how to measure MPG. It makes for better topper conversations at the water-cooler I guess.


  43. 43
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:21 am)

    41 CorvetteGuy Says:
    Does the AER change when the ICE kicks in?
    ———————-
    AER = all electric range, meaning the ICE should not be on. If the ICE kicks on, you have hit the limit of your AER.


  44. 44
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:27 am)

    On air conditioning:

    Masterflux technical data sheet confirms about 2,000 W power draw for A/C in a hot environment. (this is the same air conditioning compressor used in the Tesla). So, assuming that 40 AER under optimal conditions is about all you are going to get (between the lines on Zeilinksi’s comments seem to indicate this, i.e. that’s all of the 8kwh used up), . . then for every hour you run the air conditioning that’s a 25% reduction in range (2kwh / 8kwh = 25%) which would equate to 30 mi AER if you’re running the A/C on high.

    http://www.masterflux.com/userimages/SIERRA06-0982Y3DataSheet.pdf

    Now accelerate harder than 3mph/sec (what’s used on the epa test cycles referenced) or drive faster than 60 mph and it comes down further.

    Your mileage may vary . . a lot.

    LWesson, maybe it’s time for a new girlfriend.


  45. 45
    LauraM

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:29 am)

    This is great news about highway driving. And I’m glad that GM is doing their research. But I really want to hear about the US06 cycle, and the air conditioner…


  46. 46
    GXT

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:29 am)

    21. Gsned57,

    I just can’t see them not giving you the extra city range if they knew it was safe to do so.

    Perhaps they are dipping into the 30% reserve on the highway to make sure you get your 40 miles (and this is why they are apparently budgetting the cost of two batteries into the price). Or perhaps the “real” range with AC on is 40 miles city and 30 highway.

    Given GM’s lack of accuracy in the past, I look forward to some real-world and independent reviews.


  47. 47
    la_lang

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:31 am)

    With a full blast of air-conditioning on, I would be happy if the volt can go 30 miles on the battery.

    I have a suggestion to GM, the heat generate from the battery can be recoup and circulate in the cabin as a heater for winter driving.


  48. 48
    BillR

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:37 am)

    Here is a transcript of testimony to CARB last year.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/board/mt/2008/mt032708.txt

    A couple of interesting excerpts:

    “What I’d look to focus on is just a few facts. One the South Coast Air Basin has the worst air quality in the nation as you see on this chart. 16 and a half million residents are subjected to air quality that are either unhealthy or very unhealthy in major parts of our region.”

    Dr. Miyasoto, CA Air Quality
    ———————————-
    “It’s our Chevy Volt technology. It does have a plug-in, but it’s really an electric car with a range extender. It can drive the US ’06 schedule all electric. It can drive 40 miles all electric.”

    “The vehicle has zero tailpipe emissions for 40 miles. We’ve studied over 600 drivers in southern California. Sixty-four percent of those drivers would leave home all electric and arrive back home all electric. Those vehicles, if they would plug in one time, that number would increase to 84 percent would be all electric all the time.”

    “We’ even went to the trouble of putting a pressurized fuel system on board so there won’t be any evaporative emissions, because we’re not sure how often we would purge that vehicle.”

    Al Weverstad, General Motors
    ———————————
    Note this document is several hundred pages in length, and includes testimony from Tesla, UC Davis, Chris Paine, James Woolsey, and many others.

    I’m not sure if this implies the Volt can go 40 miles in the US06 cycle, but I see why GM is looking for more charging infrastructure. It increases the all electric percentage in this southern CA study from 64 to 84 percent.


  49. 49
    NZDavid

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:38 am)

    Picking up from a comment John1701a made some time ago I have been running a daily logbook of my trips for the last month. They range from a low of 1.86 miles to 26.1 miles per day, so far.

    The bulk are 22 – 24 miles, being a mixture of highway and city driving, so I can run my Volt all year, A/C in summer, heater in winter, and never need petrol. I do have some longish trips coming up next week which will ruin the fantasy of NO fuel though.

    Still that’s the whole point of having a range extender in the first place I guess.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:50 am)

    #36. Sheltonjr Says:

    Miles traveled: 12,000
    Gasoline used: 24 gallons (4 fillups)

    Assuming that’s per year, so you fill up every 3 months. Do you know what happens to gasoline when it sits. It turns to gunk, it clogs the carburators/fuel injectors. Basically it goes bad. Gasoline of today is not gasoline of the 1960s. So you may need to buy a gallon or two of fresh gas every week or two, so you are still running to the pump with thei Volt generator on board technology.

    Just my two cents.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:54 am)

    # 974 on the list…. living in Central Alberta, Canada …. 4 real seasons…. up to + 28 C in the summer and as low as -40 C in the winter..and everthing else in between. Sounds like the perfect canidate for the Volt testing ground.
    And no… I would not put the Volt in a heated garage overnight. From the sounds of the testing done…. you would have to drive like a grandma with the windows rolled up and everything shut off just to get near the 40 MPC…
    GM send a Volt / Mule up here and let me give you REAL WORLD numbers.
    If the Volt ever gets to the showroom …. I hope to get one by 2012. And then I will let all of you know the REAL NUMBERS ..


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:55 am)

    Carcus1 @44, La_Lang at 47.

    In order to reduce your AER by 25% you would need to average 30MPH for one hour, doesn’t seem all that likely to me.

    I think in the ‘real’ world one could expect 34 – 36 miles AER, which works well for me.

    BillR@48.
    It seems to me he was pointing out they don’t need the ICE to provide power to complete the US06 cycle (compared to a plug in Prius). He then made a separate statement and neglected to mention he changed the driving standards to the EPA city/highway cycles to get the 40 miles AER. Al Weverstad should work in PR with his doublespeak.

    Still I did like the bit about the pressurized tank. Great link, thanks.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:02 am)

    John 1701a

    I’m from Canada too. In fact, this morning I was drivng in fresh snow. According to the latest weather report, my morning commute will be in temperatures below freezing well into May. I still have to agree with the other posters, heat is the issue.
    When I step out in the morning, I’m dressed for the weather and my car will be no colder than I am already prepared for. As long as I can direct enough heat to the windows to keep them defrosted, I’m fine, I don’t really need to warm the cabin to room temperature.
    Summer heat is a different story. A car baking on asphalt for a work day can get far hotter than my wife will tolerate.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:05 am)

    #50 Ben

    You can buy fuel stabilizer. I use it in my mower for winter storage, and the snowblower for summer. Never have to empty the tank..no trouble on my 13 y.o. mower and 4 years on the blower…


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:19 am)

    Any one seen this? (not the aptera, but a review..)

    http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/04/we-drive-the-ap.html

    100 mile AER under any condition, 25-40k price, 220v 30A charge in 4 hours, only seats 2 but has a Drag of 0.15!!!

    Wild


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:20 am)

    #20 Statik

    “Unfortunately for me, my son loooooooves It’s a Small World….so we ride, again, and again,”

    I took my sons on the Small World ride in CA. Boat traffic backed up and stopped in the south pacific. We were stuck in traffic for twenty minutes, listening to that song. The torture was too much for me. I was the first one to break. I screamed out, “TURN OFF THE MUSIC!” Some mysterious entity complied, levaing us surrounded by mechanical islanders with spears rattling. The little “Chuckies” weren’t so cute anymore. My sons don’t ever want to go on that ride again.

    By the way, when we were stopped in traffic, there was no engine noise from our boat. It must have been an EREV.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:27 am)

    Sheltonjr #36 Says: “Today is December 30th, 2011…..”

    Do you think that GM will let Lyle post his test drive review of the Volt mule yet????

    :)


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    ThombDbhomb

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:29 am)

    On this blog, have we entered a new era of respectful tech discussions? I hope so.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:31 am)

    I don’t see why there is so much interest in the amount of range that the air conditioner will take away. Do most people with a traditional internal combustion engine care about it affects their fuel economy? I would hazard a guess to say it’s mostly no.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:36 am)

    I note lots of loyal Canadian bloggers here today. I have been thinking of you each morning this week, when the local radio reports on the Stanley Cup playoff between the Anaheim Mighty Ducks and the San Jose Sharks. I wonder how that plays in the GWN? Everything I know about hockey I learned from “Slap Shot”, LOL. I assume that whoever wins this just gets blown off the ice when they come up against the real guys in the next round, right?

    #48 BillR:

    That’s where I live, choke, gasp. Bring it on!!!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:41 am)

    #50 Ben & 54 Mitch “You can buy fuel stabilizer.”
    _____________

    You’ll want to check with the comments of Dan Petit on maintenance issues before you make those decisions.


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    George K

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:41 am)

    I’m wondering how differently hard acceleration of a gas engine vs. an electric engine (the Volt) is re hurting mpg.

    I know in a gas car, left lane driving will kill mpg. I’m wondering if it has as much of a devistating effect with an electric drive. An electric motor is theoretically 90% efficient compared to a gas motor, in the neighborhood of 25% efficient?

    Anyone have any idea?

    Static, I always liked that song.

    =D~~~~


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    Bill Robbins

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:42 am)

    Yes, I’m thinking adding fuel stabilizer will be my standard operating proceedure every time I fill up (every 2 or 3 months). Unless I’m on a long trip with multiple fill-ups.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:45 am)

    #56 ThombDbhomb:

    The one in CA was shut down for several months recently. It seems that the average weight of the riders had increased enough since the ride was built that the boats were grounding in one or more places, and the mechanism which moves them couldn’t do it any more. They had to deepen all or part of the water. No, I am not making this up. I hope that GM is considering this trend in its AER estimates.

    #57 Jim I:

    LOL!!! It’s good to be reminded.

    #58 ThombDbhomb:

    Me too.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:49 am)

    Re #50 Ben saying that the gas will turn to gunk–

    Re #54 Mitch saying to use stabilizer in the fuel.

    I also use stabilizer for my lawn equipment and it works.

    Wonder if this will be authorized by GM or would it void the warranty?


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:52 am)

    Good morning Noel.
    Did you ever look into converting that S-10?
    Actually, there are more than one of us from central Alberta specifically. Ray from #51 could be my neighbour.
    I honestly haven’t watched hockey much since Gretzky and Messier played here and dominated the sport. Summer is short enough here without spending the first half of it sitting in a refrigerated arena. Don’t count out the Sharks. Like any team sport ‘it ain’t over til its over’. Personally, I’d like to see Detroit win. That place needs all the winners it can find right now.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:53 am)

    George K 62

    JB Straubel of Tesla has charts on relative efficiency AER etc. ( http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/ ) I especially like the one titled range vs. speed!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:57 am)

    Tex-Arl Says:

    I also use stabilizer for my lawn equipment and it works.

    Wonder if this will be authorized by GM or would it void the warranty?
    _________________
    GM says that won’t be necessary. Look up the comments of Dan Petit regarding this to see a well thought out path to reach those goals.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:58 am)

    #52 NZDavid,

    “30MPH for one hour, doesn’t seem all that likely to me.”
    ___________________________________________________

    In a hot city environment, (where a lot of us do our commuting), the air conditioner is on from the time you start the car till the time you shut it off.

    I’ve got a 21 mile city commute (over 50% of it on the freeway), and it usually takes 35 minutes, that means I’m averaging 36 mph in a PURE distance vs time calculation (NOT the average of what my speedometer has been reading). Throw in a drive through or a 5 minute traffic jam, (or even a phone conversation in the parking lot with the air on), and it doesn’t take long to get to a 30 mph or less average.

    So, it’s likely, it’s real world, and it happens everyday with millions of commuters all over the country.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:05 am)

    @CorvetteGuy 41

    “Also, what is total range on a full tank of gas? I’ve heard 400 and 700 miles…”

    Aw man, when we travel to Disneyland on I%, there is no way one can go 400miles without stopping. At best I can only go 160-180 MPB. That’s right “MPB”. That’s MILE PER BLADDER!!!

    @noel park
    “The one in CA was shut down for several months recently. It seems that the average weight of the riders had increased enough since the ride was built that the boats were grounding in one or more places, and the mechanism which moves them couldn’t do it any more. They had to deepen all or part of the water. No, I am not making this up. I hope that GM is considering this trend in its AER estimates.”

    AHAHAHAHAH!!!!
    That is soo true!! I was on it behind a group of Tongan’s. Those guys were the nicest dudes I’ve met but man the baot just bottomed. The funny part is they were blaming each other. There were 6 of them in there.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:09 am)

    carcus1 @ 69
    I’ve got a 21 mile city commute (over 50% of it on the freeway), and it usually takes 35 minutes, that means I’m averaging 36 mph in a PURE distance vs time calculation (NOT the average of what my speedometer has been reading). Throw in a drive through or a 5 minute traffic jam, (or even a phone conversation in the parking lot with the air on), and it doesn’t take long to get to a 30 mph or less average.

    Good point, my bad.

    Still, having the ICE idle for 5 minutes doesn’t do a lot for mileage either.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:15 am)

    Turn the air conditioner on full, get up on the highway at 75 mph and your AER finishes out at about the 20 mile point.

    That’s my prediction.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:18 am)

    #64 noel park
    #70 CaptJackSparrow

    I was in an amusement park in Pennsylvania, waiting to get onto a circular raft. The raft had bench seats for 8 people. Many fat people wanted to ride, butt they took up more than one seat. So, instead of putting eight people through at a time, they could ony put 5 or 6 through at a time. That made the wait longer.

    (…must relate this to Volt…) Because the Volt battery takes up space through the middle of the passenger area, fat people will have to straddle the hump to take up two spaces. GM should pad the hump.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    Guy Incognito @ 14,

    You would think that the Volt might actually do better in city driving than highway.
    Would’nt the stop & go of city driving give greater recovery of energy via regen braking?

    Remember, you can’t /create/ energy with regenerative breaking. You can only loose less energy. Even if you start at the top of a hill and run the regenerative brakes the whole way down, the chances are that the car was transported up the hill somehow.

    If you drive any car (including a Prius) at a steady 25mph, you get much better efficiency than if you go 25 -> 0 -> 25 -> 0 -> 25 with that vehicle. But the efficiency of a vehicle with regenerative braking will take less of a efficiency-hit with this workload than the same vehicle with a conventional drivetrain.

    The best way to improve the efficiency of any car: drive slowly and steadily. I’ll be happy to bring out some freshman physics to frame the issues, but it’s hard to keep it concise and I’m not sure if anyone is interested. Plus, I’m sure I’d just be inviting Nasaman to open a can of whoop-CFD and boundary-layer aerodynamics-foo on all of the things I’d gloss over. :-)


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    #71 NZ,

    “Still, having the ICE idle for 5 minutes doesn’t do a lot for mileage either.”
    _______________________________________________
    True. The electric car is at it’s best at low to moderate speeds, easy accelerations. Without the Air conditioner cranking, then traffic congestion won’t have much effect on the volt AER.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:26 am)

    ThombDbhomb #73:

    Maybe the tubbies will have to wait for that Hummer electric hogmobile that someone else posted about recently!!!!

    Capt Jack will not want to pay for the “Padded Hump” option…

    :)


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Mitch @ 54,

    I don’t even use fuel stabilizer in my lawnmower gas. I haven’t had any problem, and I suspect it’s because I use very tightly sealed gas-cans. The old metal gas cans that my dad used to have had a vent that was open all the time; the only ones that I can find now are plastic — and they’re tough enough to take the pressure when the barometer chances. I’m betting that all of those VOCs say in the can and reach some sort of an equilibrium — just like the fizz in a soft drink. Except that the gasoline is toxic to humans.

    Anyway, back to the point, I suspect that, like the tight seal on my gas cans, the evaporative emissions control system on a modern car might keep gasoline from going stale for much longer than we’d expect.

    Some supporting evidence: neither my garden shed nor my car smell like gasoline. I seem to remember both smelling that way when I was a kid. It’s possible that I changed, but I think it’s likely that the tight seals on my gas cans gas tanks are what has changed.

    P.S. I’ve started running E85 in my lawnmower. It seems to work surprisingly well, but the gas tank on my little mower is vented. I noticed the last time that I pulled the mower out that the gas tank level was about 1/8th of a tank, but I coulda sworn I had 3/4 of a tank in there before I shelved the lawnmower for a couple of weeks. Has anyone else noticed E85 evaporating a lot of its volume when stored in vented container/tank?


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:33 am)

    Pontiac…. Gone


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:38 am)

    Luke @ 77,

    The vent that I’m referring to on my dad’s was tiny. There was a much bigger vent that you had to open in order to actually pour the gas. The hold was small enough to prevent oil-canning when the barometer changed.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:59 am)

    #55 Mitch,

    Thanks for the link.

    The Aptera 2e keeps moving up on my list of most desirable electric cars. (somewhere in the vicinity of the imiev and ford’s electric focus)


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:01 pm)

    #51 Ray Says:
    GM send a Volt / Mule up here and let me give you REAL WORLD numbers.
    ————

    They already tested the mules this winter in the UP of Michigan, which also gets super cold.


  82. 82
    Jorge

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:03 pm)

    Breaking News

    GM to sell or shut down Pontiac.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:09 pm)

    @Jim I 76

    “Capt Jack will not want to pay for the “Padded Hump” option…”

    Less is more I always say….

    In all cars Hybrid or BEV or whatever that uses brake regen, there is a design flaw. Brake regen is fine but in order for it to be of use for the car to store, the voltage generated HAS to be more than the batt voltage. Of course we all know that right? If there’s not potential diff in voltage, there’s no current flow. So what happens is the AC/DC moter does it’s thing for brake regen but many times it will not meet that critera 45% of the time. The stator needs to spinf fast enough to bring to to a voltage usable to move current into the batts. So here’s the problem. As you slow down, you reach a threshold where the AC/DC motor is not spinning fast enough to achieve current flow. Basically when you his about 35MPH. This means from 65 to 35 you have useable energy to store. But from 35 to 0 there’s nothing you can store. I would highly suggest the automotive industry to look into designing a reverse CVT that is designed to keep a constant rotation of the AC/DC moter during regen all the way down to 10MPH. This will improve brake regen by about 70%. Of course there is never going to be 100% regen because then you are expecting full “Unity”. That won’t happen.

    Get it?!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:12 pm)

    Don’t flame on my typing, I know it sucks!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:14 pm)

    Im starting to believe that Lyle has one of the VOLT MULE in his garage to test until the transition model is done… when are you going to post your review?…geeez, m sick and tired of waiting!!!!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:18 pm)

    Jorge @82:

    Exceptionally sad day for me; a long time Pontiac owner and enthusiast. I am now officially pissed off.

    As the saying goes, this time, its personal.

    At least Pontiac could design cars that you wanted to drive, not dread. Pontiac has been given a rough time on this board is past months, I guess due to old bias and designs that put some emphasis on visual cues instead of being “understated”. I suppose there will be some happy folks here.

    As for me, I’d drive a Pontiac over an import box any day.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:22 pm)

    MetrologyFirst@86

    I agree. Even though I was never a big fan of GM, Pontiac always managed to build cars that caught my eye.

    It is a sad day.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:27 pm)

    55 Mitch Says:
    .Any one seen this? (not the aptera, but a review..)
    http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/04/we-drive-the-ap.html
    100 mile AER under any condition, 25-40k price, 220v 30A charge in 4 hours, only seats 2 but has a Drag of 0.15!!!
    Wild
    ================================

    What will the Cd be when then add windshield wipers?


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:32 pm)

    Highlights from the latest Aptera 2e article:

    Battery size is now at 13 kwh
    100 mi range is with 2 adults, 250 lbs of cargo, AND air conditioning at full blast.
    4 hour recharge time (220v)
    6 year battery life
    0 – 60 mph under 10 sec
    crash testing claimed to be exceeding federal standards

    http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/04/we-drive-the-ap.html
    ___________

    **250 lbs of cargo! They could use this thing to haul all those freshly minted greenbacks from the federal reserve to GM headquarters.

    *** At 25,000 a copy, the $17.4 billion bailout down the rat hole in bankruptcy money would have purchased about 700,000 Aptera 2e’s.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:48 pm)

    #37 LWesson Says, “… The ideal operating parameter is so out of kilter with much of the nation. It would be nice here in Texas to have 65º days year round but even Satan goes back to Hades come the Texas Summer months.

    This engineer mindset is so couched INSIDE a comfy box that it is small wonder that GM has problems. Recall the Shuttle and the O Rings on the solid rocket booster? Real World conditions included freezing even in Florida but what did it matter… .”

    ——————————————————

    In order to get 40 miles range under worst-case conditions, GM would have to increase the size of the battery. That would increase the price, and we are already complaining that the price is too high.

    I think GM has thought this through very well and found the right compromise to maximize our bang for the buck.

    By the way, it was the management who made the decision to fly with the questionable o-rings. The engineers recommended against it.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (12:52 pm)

    #89 add,

    For high mileage commuters, a $10,000 battery pack starts looking viable even at $2 gas. (and that’s before we start talking about maintenance savings)


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    #83 CaptJackSparrow Says, “… In all cars Hybrid or BEV or whatever that uses brake regen, there is a design flaw. … As you slow down, you reach a threshold where the AC/DC motor is not spinning fast enough to achieve current flow. Basically when you his about 35MPH.”

    ————————————————

    I think you are forgetting that the motor is not connected directly to the battery. Between the motor and the battery is a motor controller, which regulates voltage based on your “throttle” position.

    Generation can happen at any speed. All that is necessary is that the motor is being turned faster than it is being driven electrically. So, let your foot off the throttle at any speed and the motor becomes a generator.


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    fas

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:04 pm)

    40 is not much at all. Considering the Prius gives almost around 56.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:07 pm)

    #73 ThomDbhom – LOL. Welcome to to the corpulant land of Pennsylvania, where pregnant wives can share their maternity pants with their husbands.

    #90 Bob G – I don’t think you know too many engineers. They are the most technically conservative, reality-based people on the planet. They usually produce bullet-proof designs that are summarily undercut by management and accountants for the sake of expediency and cost savings.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:08 pm)

    #56 ThombDbhomb and #20 Statik

    “Its a small world…”

    It has been nearly 25 years since we took our two to WDW – that song still bubbles up to conciousness at the oddest times.

    #87 Jorge and #86 MetrologyFirst
    Long live the Goat


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:08 pm)

    Temp range is important for me too. It was in the 20′s just 16 hours ago, now its 80 degrees outside.

    I dont know what uses more energy.. keeping something cool, or keeping something warm. Where’s the thermodynamic engineers?


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:13 pm)

    #93 fas – I think I speak for everyone on this site when I respond to your comment with a resounding “…Huh?” The Prius provides 56 of what exactly? It sure doesn’t provide 56 miles of all-electric range (AER); it provides exactly zero, whereas the Volt will provide a solid 40 AER. It appears you confuse AER with MPG. The Prius cannot compete against the Volt in AER because it doesn’t even have one.


  98. 98
    David K (CT)

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:17 pm)

    Jim in PA @ 97 says…I think I speak for everyone on this site when I respond to your comment with a resounding “…Huh?”

    ———————————

    And you did it very well, thank you!


  99. 99
    Mitch

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:27 pm)

    #88 K-dawg

    42…terrible negfative penalty on the Cd..almost as bad as bugs sticking to the windshield…

    #97..

    Yes..thank you.. I think “fas” is a shortened version of..
    ” I don’t know what I am talking about but I love Toyota and am a troll who wants to shoot down GM and show how superior Toyorta is..and I am more than willing to show total and complete ignorance by posting something so stupid as to remove any doubt whatsoever as to the fact that I lost in the first round on the television show ‘are you smarter that a 1st grader?’ in the colouring inside the lines competition”

    or something like that…


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    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:32 pm)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dIXLADkMVo

    TOM GAGE is CEO of AC Propulsion, Inc., a company dedicated to commercializing electric propulsion for automobiles. He gained his professional experience planning regulatory strategy at Chrysler Motors in Detroit, and later consulting in the Global Automotive Practice at SRI International. Regarded as an expert in the “energetics” of automobile propulsion, he also provides frequent commentary on market trends, and the role of public policy in the evolution of automotive technology. Educated at Stanford and Carnegie Mellon, he is a 25-year member of the Society of Automotive Engineers.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:33 pm)

    #88
    k-dawg

    What will the Cd be when then add windshield wipers?
    _______________________
    Are you serious?


  102. 102
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:43 pm)

    For everyone furiously working out the drag coefficient problem for wipers on the 2e, . . . put down your pencils.

    Washer-linked variable intermittent windshield wipers come standard, but they’re recessed when not in use,

    / I have REALLY got to stop spending so much time on this web-site. I’m sure others here would agree.


  103. 103
    Jim in PA

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:50 pm)

    It’s sad to lose “The Chief” (Pontiac). I guess my wife and I are now officially driving collectors items. Other than Caddy, Pontiac makes the only GM cars with any kind of visual flair. Yeah, they went a little overboard in their brief “plastic cladding” phase, but I’ve always preferred the look of Pontiacs over Chevys. In fact, I think two of the best looking GM cars right now are the new G6 coupe and the Solstice. But GM has essentially destroyed the individuality of the brand, so at this point… heave-ho.

    There is nothing original left other than some sheet metal styling cues, anyway. Every Pontiac car already exists somewhere else as a different brand. The G6 is basically a cheapened Malibu. The G5 is a Cobalt. The G8 is a Holden. The Vibe is a Corolla/Matrix. The SUV of the moment always has an identical Chevy sister. The Solstice was the Saturn Sky. So Pontiac was already dead…


  104. 104
    ArkansasVolt

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:52 pm)

    #97 Jim in PA

    Well stated!


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    noel park

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:53 pm)

    #87 Jorge:

    I hear you, but I read somewhere yesterday (here?) that they have 6 months of G5′s in inventory. Handwriting on the wall?

    #102 carcus1

    Shoot, you ruined my fun. I was going to say it’s a motorcycle, get tough. Reach out the window and wipe off the w/s with a towel, LOL. Years ago I used to have the coolest English motorcycle gloves you ever saw. Black leather with chamois backs so you could wipe off your goggles in the rain.

    Did y’all see that the Feds just loaned GM another $2 Bil? Also, there is a wire story on the Yahoo site that mentions Fiat as a potential buyer for Opel.


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    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:59 pm)

    #105 Noel Park,
    “Black leather with chamois backs so you could wipe off your goggles in the rain.”
    _________________________________

    Plus, when you glove slap some bloke in the pub to a duel, it doesn’t hurt as much (and it cleans his glasses).


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    Zach

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:03 pm)

    #3,

    I second that. Why did he mention the US06, if he’s not going to give us a number??


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    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:04 pm)

    #88
    k-dawg

    What will the Cd be when then add windshield wipers?
    _______________________
    Were you serious?
    _______________________________
    #102 carcus1 “I have REALLY got to stop spending so much time on this web-site.”
    _____________________________________
    There are times when I would have to agree with you. If GM lasts that long, you’ll have a lot of crow on your plate to lap up; so here’s to lunch in 11/2010.
    __________________
    Noel Park 105, So that’s what those “chamois backs” were for!


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    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:10 pm)

    carcus1

    #89 add,

    For high mileage commuters, a $10,000 battery pack starts looking viable even at $2 gas. (and that’s before we start talking about maintenance savings)
    ____________________
    Is that for a 16 kWh on the Volt? Can you walk me through this one, I’m a little slow today?


  110. 110
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:18 pm)

    #109 Jeffhre,

    That was on a 100 mi range Aptera 2e.

    One example: somebody’s got an average (22mpg) car that they use to commute 80 mi/day for work. He’s looking to buy a new car.

    80 x 5 x 52 = 20,800 mi/ year.
    20,800 mi/year / 22 mpg = 945 gal/year X $2 = $1890/year
    $1890 x 6 years (length of battery life) = $11,345 which is more than the $10,000 battery.

    *Just a rough comparison, I don’t know if Aptera has said what their 13kwh battery will cost to produce/replace.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:25 pm)

    Carcus1

    Thank you. Yes, if they can stay within they’re projected overall vehicle costs I agree, and the driver doesn’t mind all of the attention; unconventional car?


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    Unni

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:31 pm)

    Sorry for not going through all the comments before posting the question :

    Do this means regenerative breaks wont work in EV mode ? or they are not capable of even giving a mile extra in normal city drive ?

    Or EPA city cycle does not contain any breaking situations ?


  113. 113
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    #111 Jeffhre,

    Biggest drawback on the Aptera (for me) would be the attention factor. But if they start selling that should die down in a year or two.
    I’d just have to park it in back of the steakhouse (crow soup is unlikely).

    Other drawbacks (2 seats, 3 wheels on snowy roads) are a non issue for me. I’d just drive my pickup when needed.


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    old man

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:46 pm)

    I think I would have liked for GM to have kept the Pontiac name and moved all their sporty cars to that flagship. Vette, camaro. And the original Volt for their E-REV.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (3:08 pm)

    Carcus1

    The Aptera seems like a reasonable way to go if you can get past the unconventional part. Hopefully people (me included) aren’t to vain to give it a fair shot.

    If these electric car promises pan out a lot of us will be dining out on crow soup – and you may be caught up in the wake of the person posting as carcass, if my recollections are close to accurate!


  116. 116
    k-dawg

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (3:12 pm)

    jeffhre Says:
    April 24th, 2009 at 1:33 pm .#88
    k-dawg

    What will the Cd be when then add windshield wipers?
    _______________________
    Are you serious?

    —————————————-

    I was just making the point it has no windshield wipers, but I would be curious to see what the # would be since there’s no place to tuck them away.

    Also check this out
    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090424/POLITICS03/904240352/1148/AUTO01/+Cash+for+Clunkers++deal+near

    So $37500 for the Volt – $7500 tax credit – $5000 cash for clunker = a $25000 Volt for me.


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    Jim I

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (3:51 pm)

    If you think that the Volt is limited in it’s initial availability, then you will be really unhappy with Aptera. CA only, with no idea when it will be for sale in other states. And don’t forget that with only three wheels, it is considered as a motorcycle. I wonder how that affects crash testing standards?

    With their pricing in the same ballpark as a Volt, IMHO, there is no comparison. The Volt is a real car!


  118. 118
    Eliezer

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (3:53 pm)

    #114 old man:

    I think I would have liked for GM to have kept the Pontiac name and moved all their sporty cars to that flagship. Vette, camaro. And the original Volt for their E-REV.
    —————————————————–

    I’m sure that back in the day the Pontiac name actually stirred up some excitement, but now it has virtually no sex appeal. When new car buyers think of brands that offer fast, fun-to-drive cars, Pontiac doesn’t come to mind anymore.

    However, just because Pontiac is being killed doesn’t mean all of the cars need to die as well. Most of the cars (like the G6 and Vibe) are rebadged Chevys and Toyotas, so their deaths would be inconsequential. The only ones I would want to see live are the G8 and the Solstice. If GM gets rid of the Chevrolet Impala, they could bring in the G8 under the Chevy name as a competitor to Ford’s new Taurus. The Solstice (and its sister, the Saturn Sky) could also be rebadged as a Chevy. After all, what difference does the emblem on the car really make if you love driving it?


  119. 119
    Dan Petit

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (4:14 pm)

    It is important to leave the air conditioning issue separately in order to properly confirm a standard as to AER.
    The reasons for this are primarily that air conditioning loads are literally “all over the place” and are also a “roulette wheel” as to how much energy you will require for any particular moment.
    There are excellent possibilities (likely in the works already) regarding air conditioning in your Volt. There could be some way that some sort of ballast with very high thermal inertial could be incorporated into the Volt so that you could get a great “head start” in chilling down the interior.
    It can take 25 times as much energy to purge very high built-up heat and to also cool you off at the same time, than if the interior was kept at, say, a very *dry* and moderate temp of 84 degrees during “plug-in”. This would not take great amounts of energy if the software could anticipate your next drive time and pre-purge any excess heat, because you are maintaining conditions in a very small space. Once occupant(s) also have been cooled off, inexpensive infrared sensors could be made to reduce the pulse-width compressor times. But overall, there is not really a way to be able to say how much energy your heat loads will affect the AER in order to publish anything that could be considered a standard load factor for A/C.
    From what I understand so far, (and if there are very high volumes of air movement from strong HVAC blower-fan CFM’s), then the movement of very dry air itself will have a compounding cold effect which will require less refrigeration if it can be very well tuned to something I could call “infrared directional HVAC”.
    Why cool the entire vehicle with all the vents when you can shut down at least one or two of them (the furthest away from you) by using the Airbag seat detection switch sub-processor-inputs to tell the HVAC that no-one else is in the Voltec vehicle. (“Me-first cooling, send all air flow this way”, then “learn” to cut back automatically when I press the next slower fan speed twice.)

    The cost of pure “green” electricity from Austin Energy that is currently available would work out to be a penny-a-mile extra for a Volt.
    I am told also by Austin Energy, that they are working to get that price down from a whole penny-a-mile to something less for pure “green” electricity.
    We are getting our “smart electrical meters” installed in the next few weeks. That way, we can see exactly what the whole house uses at any given time, and, how much the Voltec vehicle would use overnight.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.


  120. 120
    Brian

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (4:18 pm)

    I just saw on the news that GM got another $ 2 Billion dollars today of taxpayer money. I hope you enjoy my hard earned money GM. Glad I could have some small part in propping your failed business up for another month. Enjoy, drink a cold one on me. I can’t afford it now, but you sure can.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (4:36 pm)

    @k-dawg 116

    “So $37500 for the Volt – $7500 tax credit – $5000 cash for clunker = a $25000 Volt for me.”

    So if I have 2 pieces of sh|t cars can I get $10,000? Hell, if that’s the case then I can afford Gen1!


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (4:38 pm)

    I don’t get the quote from the following…

    One sponsored by Rep. Betty Sutton, D-Ohio, gives larger amounts to American-made vehicles, smaller amounts to North American vehicles, and nothing to other foreign-made vehicles.

    What do you guys read in this?


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    old man

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (4:50 pm)

    Capt.

    I HOPE it is to keep the mexican [nonamerican] cars from the rebate program. Don’t want to see cars from Europe, China, India coming in to Mexico then do something small and call them North American.


  124. 124
    Unni

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (5:14 pm)

    Gone through all comments :

    more questions :
    Basic question is how GM achieved it .

    sub questions :

    1) Do this means regenerative breaks wont work in EV mode ?
    2) Is Volt’s regenerative breaks are not capable of even giving a mile extra in normal city drive ?
    3) EPA city cycle does not contain any breaking situations.
    4) Movement with out pressing pedal also regenerates, so is highway also regenerates same/less as city ?

    5) Is the power distribution module/ Computer in volt is smart to adjust with the power requirements in highway ( as they don’t need much to keep in same speed ) and that savings is same or better than city regenerative breaking power generated (theory: the penny you did not spend is also a penny you saved) which results in same output.

    All these questions are from the normal paradigm we see with hybrids saying city – 3-5 miles extra to high way due to regenerative breaks.


  125. 125
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (5:36 pm)

    @Unni 124

    1) Do this means regenerative breaks wont work in EV mode ?
    Yes they will work in EV mode but only up till the motors rotation is effective in generating DC Voltage over 400V. Otherwise, no current will ever flow to the batteries.

    2) Is Volt’s regenerative breaks are not capable of even giving a mile extra in normal city drive ?
    Not sure if anyone has done the math but in my opinion it all depends on how fast you are going when you start the regenerative brake process.

    3) EPA city cycle does not contain any breaking situations.
    Look at it this way, the EPA try to mimick driving patterns in the city, so I would think there is braking in the stop and go process of their test.

    4) Movement with out pressing pedal also regenerates, so is highway also regenerates same/less as city ?
    It has not been addressed as to exactly “When” the regeerative braking electrically starts. One would think it would right after you release the accelerator. At least I know the MINI-e does. I’m sure there is “brake regen” occuring but at a rate that does not cause too much braking and increaseing as you actually do press on the brake to a point where the pads eventually have to engage to actually stop the car.

    Brake regen is a fuzzy subject. NO company ever gives a figure on how much energy is reclaimed in any braking process. He||, for all we know brake regen only returns 2Amps at 400VDC from a 60-0 instance.


  126. 126
    Electric Vehicle Owner

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (5:40 pm)

    Advanced hypermiling technique:

    At slower speeds in town, if you feel warm, turn off the AC, open your air vents and crack open your windows, turn off the radio and listen to the birds that you can finally hear again while driving your car. You can also hear your tires quite well, so blind people are perfectly safe around you. You can also hold conversations with them that they can hear, such as “Hi, I’m directly to your left, about 30 feet away and about to go straight across the upcoming intersection as I whup that Mustang next to me”, which they could never hear from a gasser motorist (where is that huge farting Harley noise coming from – oh, the next town over but two?). Deaf people however, need severe legislation applied to the Volt, because electric vehicle are invisible and require hologram displays to proceed them at all times. Right?

    I’ve never had people fail to notice my electric vehicle. I can’t say the same about my old gasser in days of yore.

    The good news: your pure gasser vehicle is now a collector’s item. The bad news: it’s pretty worthless, because all the other collectors already have at least one (unless it’s a clean diesel in the US). Try selling your obsolete incandescent light bulbs at above their purchase price and you’ll see what I mean.


  127. 127
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (5:49 pm)

    Also, there is a lot of confusion of the concept of regenerative braking.
    There’s regenerative braking where the kenetic energy is used to slow the car but not really store the energy. This is done to save brake pad and rotor wear. In this case all they are doing is capturing the kenetic energy, converting it to electricity and applying it ti the motor coils then shunt it. This makes 100% use of Lenz law that slows the vehicle.

    There’s capturing regenerative braking where kenetic energy is converted to electrical energy then stored into the battery or Ultracaps. The natural process of Lenz law still applies but it’s effectiveness to brake and generate electricity is directly proprtional to rotational speed. Hence the slower you go the less energy you will get back to the poiint of where the voltage generated is equal to or less than the storage device you are putting it into, then there is no more regen and Lenz law therefore no more braking. That’s when the brake pads start to engage.


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (5:52 pm)

    @Electric Vehicle Owner 126

    “At slower speeds in town, if you feel warm, turn off the AC, open your air vents and crack open your windows,”

    Dude, try telling a mid life pre men-on-pausal hot flash having wife….
    Yeah, that will go well. I’ll have lost my argument to buy the car…lol


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    noel park

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:09 pm)

    #66 Mark H:

    I think I’ll just try to sweat out the Volt. I’d feel more confident with a fully vetted factory unit. If the Volt begins to look like a non-starter, maybe it’s Plan B.

    As to Detroit, I second the motion. I don’t have any stock in the Mighty Ducks, LOL.

    #106 carcus1:

    Mods vs. Rockers, don’t you know?

    #108 jeffhre:

    Nothing like that old black leather look, hehehe. Useful for wiping your nose while riding down the motorway in the old Foggy Blighty drizzle too, I suppose.

    #116 k-dawg:

    And bleep you very much to the worthy gentleman from Toyota, LOL.

    #117 Jim I:

    As I understand it, the $7500 tax credit doesn’t apply to the Aptera because it is classified as a motorcycle. Doing so evidently gets around a lot of DOT safety standards/testing, but no tax credit. I guess you can’t have it both ways. I wonder if this will apply to the “cash for clunkers” program too?


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    charlie h

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (6:16 pm)

    is there a transcript of Nick Zeilinksi’s comments? Or a recording?

    I ask this because perhaps, “When we do our calculations we include parasitic loads,” really indicates that all of this testing is simualation. It would be interesting to hear the original conversation or read an unedited transcript.


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    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:02 pm)

    #129 Noel Park

    “Mods vs. Rockers, don’t you know?”
    ______________________________

    I’m not usually one for fighting, but I might like to throw some Quadrophenia in the 8 track and jump in the middle of this one.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/360170184_991c38e705.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickr.com/photos/mod_complex/360170184/&h=381&w=500&sz=119&tbnid=v7LmRQySVfgBnM::&tbnh=99&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmods%2Bvs%2Brockers&usg=__jOY4JtnOiMifWYU7fiz2cLEB7r4=&ei=VE3ySaOWApTsyAWz6YDJDA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:26 pm)

    #131 carcus1:

    Well you’re about 10K miles ahead of me. Which wouldn’t be that hard actually, LOL.

    See, that’s exactly what happens when you slap somone with your chamois backed gloves “down the pub”.

    Well done!


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    ccombs

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:30 pm)

    I am very surprised AER is almost the same in city as on highway. Very happy for the clear news that 40 AER will almost certainly be achieved.


  134. 134
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:41 pm)

    Other news. . . .

    This sounds fairly significant,

    Honda switches gears:

    Honda To Put More Effort Into Advanced Hybrids
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/04/honda-hybrids-20090423.html#more

    /just about time to head for the pub and see if I can get in a fight, maybe I’ll take the scooter


  135. 135
    Fahrvergnugen Fanboy

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:07 pm)

    “I always find it funny when someone buys a car that is posted by the mfg as say 40mpg, and then they say how they are really getting 55mpg. Either they are driving downhill with the wind all the time, or they dont know how to measure MPG. It makes for better topper conversations at the water-cooler I guess.”

    Maybe it’s the mileage-gauge gizmos. Mine runs a pretty consistent 12 percent or so optimistic. I find myself getting seduced by it even though I know better. Today’s run Hartford to Boston and back read 44.5 on the gizmo (got in wrong lane on Comm. Ave. and ended up taking 30 all the way back to 128, plus a big backup at the toll plaza that took me from 44.0 down to 43.4, not that I’m compulsive about this stuff or anything…). I’m guessing I really got barely 40. But I beat the EPA’s 35 highway.


  136. 136
    Redeye

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:44 pm)

    136 !


  137. 137
    statik

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (9:42 pm)

    Side Note from Disney:

    If going with friends to Disney, Space Ranger Spin is THE betting spot on who pays for dinner.

    277,000 for me. So needless to say….my meal was free

    (My 3 year old put up a pathetic 3,000, but he still managed to freeload a comp meal as well somehow, lol)


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    koz

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (10:50 pm)

    Too funny Statik. Desicrating Mickey’s house. So, how many days are you sentenced to Disney?


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    koz

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:56 pm)

    http://caflor.net/iuvp/us06.html

    For those concerned about the US06 cycle. The Volt can complete it easily under All Electric operation. It is only a 10 minute cycle and covers approx 8 miles. I understand the kvetching is about the legitimate desire to know “real world” range or just pessimists taking pot shots. The reality is that the US06 doesn’t do anything more revealing real world AER for just about everybody. No more people drive the US06 cycle than drive the EPA city or EPA Highway cylces. EVERYBODY’S “REAL WORLD” DRIVING IS REALLY DIFFERENT AND RARELY RESEMBLES ANY DISCRETE CYCLE. Although Mr. Zeilinski probably shouldn’t have mentioned the US06 in this discussion without revealing tying it to the Volt’s performance, GM wouldn’t be wise to divulge it. Giving this perfomance would cause more harm than good because of the lack of understanding in the market.

    For those wanting to estimate what their AER will be, your best estimate will come from the EPA City and EPA Highway cycles because you most likely have a comparable reference. Assuming GM is using current EPA cycles (2008) for their AER (and boy they better be), then you just need to find out what you current vehicle’s 2008 EPA cycle ratings are. Calculate the ratios of your city and highway actual mileage to the rated values (Hwy-Actual/EPA-Hwy and Cty-Actual/EPA-City). Apply these to the Volt’s 40Hwy and 42Cty (my guess from comments) to guesstimate what your AER will be. You should fudge up a little if underachieve your car’s rated city performance for more forgiving EV city performance. Fudge down a little if you underchieve your car’s rated hwy mileage for less forgiving EV highway performance. For example, my Vibe is rated at 31hwy for the 2008 cycle and I average about 30, so I can expect about 38Hwy AER (40×30/31). I get 25 cty and it is rated for 25 cty, so I can expect about 40cty AER. Here in Florida, I can expect a little better in the winter and a little worse in the summer.

    As far as AC load, I a high efficiency auto AC is rated a closer to 1KW. The AC does not run constantly at rated load unless it cannot cool the cabin to the selected temperature setting. If you let the car air out a little at first and set to recirculate then the cabin cools a lot faster and the AC doesn’t have to work as hard. Even in hot and humid South Florida, I don’t expect to lose more than 6 miles of AER even under the worst scenario here (high humidity, 95 degrees, 30mph average, passengers, high cool). Highway driving under the same conditions should see about a 3 mile decrease.


  140. 140
    J Man

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (2:05 am)

    For those of us that will go more than 40 miles in a trip, what is the expected MPG when the ICE is running?


  141. 141
    Herm

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (5:09 am)

    it is suspected that it will get 50mpg, but it is not known for sure


  142. 142
    JEC

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (7:11 am)

    139 koz

    I think your theory holds when your dealing with temps that are in the 50 – 80 F range. My biggest question is what type of hit do I take when the temperature is in the 30 F or lower range. A normal ICE cars mpg does not vary significantly, when I drive in 80 or 0 degree weather. Yes, I may get a couple mpg less, but when I get 31 vs. 29 mpg, your talking about a 6% decrease in mileage performance.

    This will be a very interesting number, and I have my doubts that you would get more than 30 miles (25% range degradation) in conditions where the temperature is in single digits, and even that would be optimistic. This will be due to the decrease in the battery perf. at low temps and the fact that you need to be running a heater constantly.

    I am noat full powert saying this is a deal killer, but before someone plunks down $35k, they should at least know the “real deal”.


  143. 143
    JEC

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (7:26 am)

    142 JEC (me)

    “I am noat full powert saying this is a deal killer,”
    =================================================
    huh? What was I typing?

    I meant “I am not saying this is a deal killer…..”

    Not sure how that happened?


  144. 144
    statik

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (7:28 am)

    #138 koz said:

    “Too funny Statik. Desicrating Mickey’s house. So, how many days are you sentenced to Disney?”
    ========================
    That was my last at Disney itself. However, today I will be visiting one of its illegitimate children, the Animal Kingdom, or ‘AK’…also known as ‘Big Slick’

    Fortunately, as I am about maxed out on my ‘happiness place on earth’ intake, the trip comes to a close tonight around midnite when we all break out the long pants and get on a plane to go home.

    (another) Side note from Disney: Yesterday, I got to sit on stage of my favorite ‘ride’-the Carousel of Progress when it broke down for 10 minutes. I don’t know if it is my fav because no one ever wants to goes on it, (20 mins of quiet with A/C is a nice break)…or that it is hella dated and cheesey, and I like that sort of thing. So I have a nice shot of me sitting with ‘father’ at the kitchen table in the ’40s’

    There’s a great big beautiful tomorrow
    Shining at the end of ev’ryday
    There’s a great big beautiful tomorrow
    And tomorrow’s just a dream away


  145. 145
    JEC

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (7:48 am)

    145 Statik

    Ok, off the meds and get back to O’Canada.

    Your candy sweet, poetry is just not befitting you.
    We want the old Statik back!


  146. 146
    old man

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (8:17 am)

    #134 carcus

    Thanks for the link, now Honda has shown us the right way to eat crow!!


  147. 147
    koz

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (8:35 am)

    J Man #140,

    GM has not yet moved from their 50mpg spec in range extending mode. Some theorize this cannot be met but I’m guessing it will get slightly less than the Prius’ hwy and similar cty EPA ratings if the AERs given in this thread for cty/hwy are for the same ~8kwh energy use. I’m also assuming an Atkinson cycle engine, which doesn’t seem like much of a leap since GM is already using Atkinson on their 2-mode hybrids. This will require a genset that can deliver just over 10kwh/gallon. This will probably be closer to 11kwh to offset losses for the portion of energy flowing through the battery. GM will likely be controlling the ICE to maximize it’s efficiency, while still minimizing the energy flow to the battery. This will require ~30% efficiency for the generator, which seems reasonable.


  148. 148
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (10:05 am)

    # 139 Koz,

    You and I have different understandings of the 2008 epa mpg testing. You dismiss the us06 as irrelevant, but then go on to say GM “better be using the 2008 tests”. I find these two statements in conflict.

    The 2008 testing still utilizes the old (2007 and earlier) city/ highway test cycles The city/highway test cycles have not actually changed – - but it now does three additional tests (high speed (us06), air conditioning (sc03), and cold temperature), and then uses this data to calculate a correction to the city/highway tests. Or maybe it’s safer to say they shove all this information into the computer, and the computer spits out the 2008 city/highway/combined numbers at the other end. I haven’t seen the formulas, so I guess you could say I don’t fully understand the 2008 testing either.

    I think most would agree that the new procedure is much more representative of the average driver than the old tests, but it certainly isn’t perfect, and really never can be. With some 200 million u.s. drivers on the road, there is no one size fits all.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
    (I recommend looking at all the tabs, but especially the detailed comparison)

    Side note: one issue I have with the tests is that there appears to me to be too many stop/start cycles . . especially in the city test (23 stops in 11 miles). This will tend to favor electric cars/hybrids, but will put cars like the jetta tdi at a disadvantage (turbo lag – -I think turbo diesels tend to be more inefficient than competitive engine technologies in the acceleration phases but hit their stride in steady state or even high speed cruising). Point being, I’m not favoring diesels over electric cars, I just think the city cycle may be a little too “hard core” city for the majority of those 200 million drivers, and tends to give some technologies a misrepresentative figure in their epa rating. IMHO


  149. 149
    The Dude

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (10:32 am)

    These ppl are clueless they had a product and crushed it a few years ago.
    Even a diy electric has better range than 40 miles.
    no wonder…


  150. 150
    koz

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (11:08 am)

    Carcus1 #148

    I was dismissing the US06 cycle, not because it is based on bad criteria (they are as good as any) but rather because it’s results are not readily known. IMO US06 is reasonable as an indicator for relatively aggressive drivers with short combined hwy/city commutes. Even if you know your current vehicles US06 rating, how would you relate this to your individual driving pattern? I suppose you could do the correlation to your overall fuel economy and get a reasonable overall estimate, but I believe reasonable estimates for one’s city and highway AER are more useful and can be done more accurately. Like you said there are 200 million or so US drivers and one cycle certainly does not fit all. I should have mentioned 2008 EPA rating criteria not “tests” or “cycle”. I thought they had adjusted the city and hwy cycles not simple combined additional criteria. This means that to “calibrate” your individual driving to the Volt’s AER, the city and highway cyle ratings alone (or 2007 and prior EPA rated mileage) should be used. This lowers my expectations of AER to 36 miles hwy (72mph, A/C, light traffic) and 38 miles city (<2 mile ave trip, A/C, med acceleration).


  151. 151
    koz

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (11:12 am)

    The Dude #149

    AER is not a pissing contest. That is great for bragging but non-ICE electric miles actually driven are what really matters to reducing polutions and gasoline consumption. Producing cars that will be bought in volume because they meet more people’s needs and wants are what will get this done, not who has the biggest battery.


  152. 152
    noel park

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (11:41 am)

    #145 JEC:

    I hear you. I don’t think that poem was original anyway. I think it was written by Bob Nardelli, if memory serves.


  153. 153
    carcus1

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (12:05 pm)

    #150 Koz,

    Maybe the headline of this thread should have read:

    The Chevy Volt’s Electric Range is 40 Miles in Both Highway and City Driving**

    **when using pre-2008 epa city/highway testing procedures


  154. 154
    Buck Naked

     

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    Apr 25th, 2009 (10:58 pm)

    Why Pontiac?

    I thought Pontiac sells more cars than Cadillac and Buick combined. Must be more about profit than sales.

    Also Pontiac is the “Excitement Division” of GM. Or Was.


  155. 155
    statik

     

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    Apr 26th, 2009 (10:29 am)

    #144 Statik said:

    (another) Side note from Disney: Yesterday, I got to sit on stage of my favorite ‘ride’-the Carousel of Progress when it broke down for 10 minutes. I don’t know if it is my fav because no one ever wants to goes on it, (20 mins of quiet with A/C is a nice break)…or that it is hella dated and cheesey, and I like that sort of thing. So I have a nice shot of me sitting with ‘father’ at the kitchen table in the ’40s’

    There’s a great big beautiful tomorrow
    Shining at the end of ev’ryday
    There’s a great big beautiful tomorrow
    And tomorrow’s just a dream away
    =====================
    #145 JEC said:

    Statik Ok, off the meds and get back to O’Canada.
    Your candy sweet, poetry is just not befitting you.
    We want the old Statik back!
    =========================
    #152 noel park said:

    JEC, I hear you. I don’t think that poem was original anyway. I think it was written by Bob Nardelli, if memory serves.
    =====================
    =====================
    I don’t “do” poetry, thats from the Carousel of Progess, enjoy a short clip w/song, lol:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbFUggYn89E


  156. 156
    Michael ,Ohio

     

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    Apr 30th, 2009 (4:54 pm)

    Keep in mind,the Prius was way overpriced as well. That being said,MOST cars are overpriced. Compare a small base model BMW to a small Hyundai with all the options (so its a closer comparison). Whats the REAL difference. Not as much as the price would suggest. Everyone talks about how the Volt will be expensive. Thats ok,just make sure its has good options and a nice interior. In other words,a Tesla roadster is “overpriced” compared to a Prius. If Volt costs 40k,but has the same options any other 40k car comes with,then its a car in that class. Its not over priced. Instead, its a car in that price range that on top of all that,has a really cool electric power train. Personally,I think they should have taken a cue from Tesla Motors. Their idea was that you cant make an electric car cheaper than a gas car right now. You can however make a electric car that performs BETTER than a gas car. In this case,perform better means better gas mileage. Yes,many purchasers of such cars want the raw power. Thats ok. Then there are people who want the gas milage,not because of cost,but becuase we are concerned with the environment. In other words,they may have 100k to spend on a car,but they still refuse to buy a Cadillac Escalade because they just wont drive a vehicle like that. They buy a Prius with all the options. (Personally,I think there should be a Lexus for those people) Maybe the Volt should have been a Caddi.


  157. 157
    Lwesson

     

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    Jun 25th, 2009 (3:43 pm)

    Certain engineers recommended that no flight be made at certain low temperatures. The o rings are essential for the multiple component, reusable, solid rocket boosters. Politicians scrubbed the manned lift vehicle to get the shuttle up and so the cheaper wild Mister Toad ride with solid rockets solution.

    Texas = worst case situation ;^)


  158. 158
    MDDave

     

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    Aug 8th, 2009 (6:59 pm)

    Solo, Unless something has changed recently, Southern California, Southern Florida, NYC and DC were expected to be the initial markets, and I assume the will be plenty of them rolling around Michigan.


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