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LG Chem Has Begun Battery Plant Construction for Chevy Volt Cells

April 23rd, 2009 | Posted in: Battery, Production

LG Chem of Korea will be supplying the lithium-ion cells for the first generation Chevy Volts. The company was picked from an initial pool of 27 applicants in March 2007, eventually whittled down to 13 serious contenders. Finally, as announced in January they edged out A123 Systems in terms of preparedness and were awarded the contract for the cells that will launch the first Volts.

LG subsidiary Compact Power Inc. CEO Prahbakhar Patil has been in charge of developing the actual packs with GM, and will continue to partner with the automaker as GM takes over the assembly process on its own.

Patil told reporters that "there are no showstoppers" which would delay the launch at this point.

He also dismissed criticism about the expense of batteries and hence the Volt, claiming that "at $3 a gallon of gas, the payback is within five years." He also said CPI supplied GM 50 packs last year and will be supplying them 400 in 2009. GM has said they expect to build about 100 production prototypes prior to launch, although a few hundred more pre-production for a captured fleet are also expected.

Excitingly Patil said LG parent company in Korea has already begun the construction of the Volt’s dedicated lithium-ion cell assembly line. He said the cell line only needs to be running for about 6 months before the Volt is launched.

LG is currently capable of producing 40 million cells per month. Each Volt pack has between 200 and 300 cells. Eventually a US factory is expected.

Source (Detroit News )

Posted by: Lyle

148 Responses to “LG Chem Has Begun Battery Plant Construction for Chevy Volt Cells”

beachliving Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am

Wow, the closer we get the more exciting this is.. I can’t wait much longer.. Soon it will be here…

PS 1st for the 3rd time.
PLJ Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm

It’s happening right before our eyes. We are witnessing history.

The future of the automobile will be defined by the Chevy Volt.

I deem this to be something on the order of the introduction of the Model T.

The future looks bright folks.
solo2500nt Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Second!
Marcus Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Too bad the factory isn’t being built in the U.S. How many factories do they think they will need?
solo2500nt Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Damn! Make that third
k-dawg Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm

OK, this is more like it.
Thanks Lyle.
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm

OMG, New topic, thank you!
Steven P Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#2 PLJ

“The future of the automobile will be defined by the Chevy Volt.
I deem this to be something on the order of the introduction of the Model T.”

I think Telsa will be remembered with the honor of redefining the automobile. GM is jumping on the train too, but lets give credit where credit is due. They were the first real viable EV, that changed the game.
FME III Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm

This is good news for Volt enthusiasts everywhere. The number of packs he’s throwing out there does not suggest any significant slow-down in the Volt timetable because of the cash crunch.

But, there will be better news when we hear that automotive Li-ion batteries are being fabricacated in the U.S. by U.S. companies.

The last thing we need is to trade our dependence on foreign oil for dependence on foreign-made batteries.

Hopefully, given the presence of A123, EnerDel and others, this will never come to pass.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm

The battery is a non issue. However, I think for the foreward frontier new tech adopters, the Gen 1 Volt will have the most bang in energy than what the later versions will have. Over spec’d and very protected. That’s one of the reasons I want the first Gen. But sadly I will have to wait till Gen 2.
Phukin Furloughs……lol
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:29 pm

Steven P Says:
#2 PLJ

“The future of the automobile will be defined by the Chevy Volt.
I deem this to be something on the order of the introduction of the Model T.”

I think Telsa will be remembered with the honor of redefining the automobile. GM is jumping on the train too, but lets give credit where credit is due. They were the first real viable EV, that changed the game.
____________
And Tesla inspired Bob Lutz as well as lending a tangible factor to initiating Volt development. Tesla’s Roadster however, in PLJ’s defense, is in no way related to the impact (is there a pun here) that the Model T had on mass production of the ‘every man’s car’. Will the Volt do that, time will tell.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:32 pm

I bet if you opened the pack, you will be able to drop in place another cell mfgr’s product in and the BMS will tune each cell at the end of charge cycle. I am almost positive the thresholds are at least .45 in delta with typical LifePO4 operating range.
Of course GM won’t admit it.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 pm

@jeffhre 11

“every man’s car’”

Tha’ts funny. I just heard the Honda Insights commercial on the radio and the slogan was “A Hybrid for everyone” Of course it had to be politically correct.

Speaking of, I wasn’t able to get my Insight test drive last night. When I called 2 days ago they said sure come on down we have 3 to pick from. I got there and they sold all three of them. Phukers…..lol….

Oh yeah, they also have a waiting list….DANG!
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:38 pm

12 CaptJackSparrow

From everything I’ve read, if you cracked open the pack, voided your warranty and dropped in a prismatic LifePO4, you would get fewer thermal management headaches, a longer life and a shorter AE range.

Just speculation unless CPI or LG releases their specs.
ThombDbhomb Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm

He dismissed criticism about the expense of batteries.

He assured that “there are no showstoppers” which would delay the launch.

GM has confidence in battery performance.

ICEs can be available in time.

Things sound positive.

/waiting for statik perspective.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm

Yet another misleading/overblown headline? Plant construction brings to mind dozers, cranes, and concrete. Read the source article and I imagine a file sitting on somebody’s desk in Korea.

/guess I need to get some rose colored “volt” sunglasses
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

CaptJackSparrow

Good luck with the furloughs, hope that and the waiting list end soon!
PLJ Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:45 pm

Stephen @ 8 says: I think Telsa will be remembered with the honor of redefining the automobile. GM is jumping on the train too, but lets give credit where credit is due. They were the first real viable EV, that changed the game.
———————————————————————

Not really. While the Tesla has been acknowledged as the spark that lit GM’s fire, the Tesla is a pure electric vehicle, not in the same category as the Chevy Volt. The Tesla is really a rich man’s toy at this time.

The Volt is an EXTENDED RANGE ELECTRIC VEHICLE. It will travel the first 40 miles on battery power alone, after which a small gasoline powered range-extending generator seamlessly kicks in to power the electric drive.

There will never be any “range anxiety” with the Volt, which is a big issue with regular electric vehicles. I think for most Americans, the range-extender will be the selling point of the Volt.

You will be able to drive as usual with the Volt, just like our cars today, with no lifestyle change required. Drive anywhere, anytime, without any worries about running out of juice. Ever. Just plug it in when you get home. That’s all there is to it.

And for more than 75% of Americans that means routinely using NO gasoline.

This is why the Volt is the real watershed vehicle in this whole electric movement.
ThombDbhomb Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

#16 carcus1

If the cell line only needs to be running for about 6 months before the Volt is launched, then we have 13 months to turn that file into a factory. LG Chem knows its deadlines and expresses confidence. So, rose colored “volt” sunglasses might be the safe bet.
noel park Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

#8 Steven P & #11 jeffhre:

I have to agree with jeffhere here. There were all sorts of viable cars before the Model T, but the high production rates and low price of the Model T made them accessible to many more people, and reall fuelled the automobile revolution (for better or worse).

Maybe Gottlieb Daimler’s car in 1896, or whenever, is to the Model T as the Tesla is to the Volt. Or maybe the curved dash Olds, RIP.

#12 CaptJackSparrow:

Buy ‘em over the internet from China like I do the batteries for my wife’s obsolete Nokia phone, LOL.
ArkansasVolt Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:52 pm

#16 carcus1

Constructions has to start somewhere! So maybe the construction started in someone’s head, got drawn on paper, and now that paper has been approved; therefore, we have construction.
PLJ Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm

Additionally, I have to say that the Chevy Volt will not have to be an “extra” car or a toy, that you keep parked next to your REAL car that does the big jobs, anytime, near or far.

The Chevy Volt will be a FULL-TIME REAL CAR, that ordinary people can depend on day or night, for short or long trips, without any concern about running out of battery power.

And the Chevy Volt could be anyone’s SOLE vehicle. Owning only a pure electric vehicle simply would not work for most people.
N Riley Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:54 pm

Thanks, Lyle. Hard to hold back on good news. At 40 million cells per month and each battery having 300 cells, that’s 133,000 batteries per month. Did he really mean per year?
Rashiid Amul Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm

So that’s anywhere between 133,333 & 200,000 battery packs for the Volt per month. Isn’t it considered 1 pack per Volt? If so, why build so few Volts? Does it take a long time to assemble each pack?

I can understand going light the first year, but once the kinks are worked out (I don’t expect many) they should be able to crank these out in a very big way. Seems to me the batteries are not the hold up.
Am I correct on this?
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm

@noel park 20

I actually buy them from TEnergy, a CA based LiFePO4 reseller. Don’t really know if they mfgr here though. But for big prismatic cells/packs I buy from Jungle Motors. They’re here in CA as well. They buy in massive crate bulk, so they buy it cheaper and I buy from them.
I am currently building a pack for a 36V scooter for my son’s scooter. lol…..it’s going to blow him off the scooter, watch.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

@Rashiid Amul 24

“Does it take a long time to assemble each pack?”

After building a few of the same model, it doesn’t take long at all. Each cell/pack will have it’s designated place in the pack and wiring them is not a problem. Doing QA will take a little bit. It’s the test on cycle, drain, charge, balancing and environmental tests that takes a few days. But if they have many lines doing it they can probably kick out as many packs as they can cars off the line.
monkeyh8r Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm

Can we all agree that monkeys are evil? They are hypocritical, self-obsessed mammals who don’t give 2 fistfuls of raw hand-flung sh*t about your feelings. It should be obvious from the fact that they couldn’t find a single monkey anywhere to represent the fourth “do no evil” phrase in that old monkey proverb. Deceptive little b@st@rds.
Lindsey Lowhand Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:11 pm

It’s about time they get started. Slow ass monkeys. My grandma is faster than these flunkies.
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

So they could supply the goods at a moment’s notice all along, but have been waiting for the slow a$$ GM Volt launch?

Seems to me we have identified one source of the problem of getting plug in electric vehicles to market widespread and it ain’t the power cells.

@ CaptJackSparrow
Looks like for a 5% lower price, you get a car with 17% worse mileage, much smaller (next size class down), much weaker electric drive and ICE, plus the gas engine never shuts up. I’m not sure where to place the Insight, a weak hybrid, inexpensive compact version of the Ford Fusion hybrid? One thing is for sure – the different automakers are doing a brilliant job at not competing directly on electric drive equipped sedans. Each vehicle, the Prius, the Insight, the Fusion Hybrid (similar to the Camry hybrid but with better mileage), the Telas Roadster and Model S, the Volt, etc. etc., work differently and fill a different demand space. Well done, automakers, all.
Bill Ford Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm

Can’t they speed this up. This snail pace is killing me.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:19 pm

#21 Arkansas Volt,

“Constructions has to start somewhere! So maybe the construction started in someone’s head, got drawn on paper, and now that paper has been approved; therefore, we have construction.”
______________________________________________________

Ah, yes. I also have an announcement.

Construction has commenced on my 859 foot eco-yacht. 50 knot cruise speed and wind generator driven. Once final approval and government funding has been received, I’ll just need 6 months to launch.

And the moniker across the stern? I think I’ll call her “Construction Paper”.
ccombs Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:20 pm

Very encouraging! I don’t know about that 5 year payback time however. Bit fuzzy math if ya ask me… unless GM is gonna shock us all and come out with a much cheaper Volt than expected. Doubt it, unless for some reason the battery is way cheaper than previously thought.
noel park Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm

#15 ThombDbhomb:

Well I don’t presume to speak for statik, but the $64Billion question has to be, are they going to find the resources from somewhere, anywhere, to keep the doors open and the lights on until all of those wonderful things happen.

The existential financial crisis is a bigger threat to the future of the Volt than any technical challenge I can imagine. JMHO.

#19 ThombDbhomb:

Don’t I remember someone saying here recently the LG has plenty of plant capacity available in Korea? My sense of it is that they don’t really have to build an actual new factory or factories. They just have to gear up the specialized equipment to produce the special cells. Maybe they just reprogram the robots, LOL.
Gilligan Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm

WTF, only need 6 months lead to crank out the batteries. So it is really GM who is dragging their feet. There appears to be no battery problems at all. This wait is all GM’s fault. Even Tesla with its small shop could have made this Volt by now. Just Ridiculous. If this keeps up I am going to leave this island and have a smackdown with Fritz.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:29 pm

#34 Gilligan says,

“f this keeps up I am going to leave this island and have a smackdown with Fritz.”
____________________________________________________

Now that’s funny.

But really, all you need to do is get the professor going on this. He’ll have your bamboo and coconut shell volt going in less than 30 minutes (with commercial interruptions)!
Skipper Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm

Oh Gilligan! A car is MUCH MORE complicated than you could know. Just ask the Professor.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:36 pm

Forget the Professor. I wanna see MaryAnn in daisy Dukes!!!

YeeeHAaaw!
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm

#37 CaptJack,

Here you go,

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/blurbex/files/2008/03/mary-ann.jpg

Unfortunately, time marches on. But hey. She still knows how to party!
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5933093,00.jpg
HyperMiler Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:38 pm

LG’s Li-Polymer plant is already operational, busy pressing out cells for Hyundai/Kia’s hybrids launching this August.

In other word, Volt could have launched this year if it wasn’t for GM dragging its feat.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:38 pm

@carcus1 38

Yeah BOY!!!
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:40 pm

LMAO. But the professor built them one at a time, and who knows what he would do if they ran out of coconuts, broken supply chain?
HyperMiler Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:40 pm

All A123 fans don’t belong here, they should move to Chrysler EV and China’s SAIC fan sites and trash Volt and its LG battery there.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:40 pm

Hey, remember back in the days when you were younger. Riding you bike and you put some playing card on your front fork to “simulate” the sound and pretend you’re riding a motorcycle?
Well, apparently it’s going to be brought up that you need to do that for your hybrid/BEV/PHEV/EREV/quiet car…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/23/pedestrian-safety-enhancement-act-introduced-to-protect-the-blin/
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm

Silent cars???
Hmmm……I always hear their tires crunching grime as they pull up. Anyone else?
ArkansasVolt Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm

Anybody have an idea about how long it will take to construct this battery plant?
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm

CaptJackSparrow

“The blind, like all pedestrians, must be able to travel to work, to school, to church, and to other places in our communities without being injured or killed. This bill will benefit all pedestrians for generations to come as new vehicle technologies become more prevalent. The blind of America will do everything in our power to ensure its swift passage.”

Work, church, school, sheesh whens a fella got time for the important stuff?
Chia Reagan Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:50 pm

Hi guys!
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

Honestly, I can understand it for those who cant see and/or hear. However, for thos that are not impaired, I think we should just consider it as “Natural Selection” imposed by Darwinism.
You might think it’s wrong but consider this. How many times have you seen an idiot in the median divide walking and causing traffic to slow, then they try and cross in the middle of the road. Even worse, a parent and their kids cross a 6 lane main road in front of a shopping mall where the crosswalk was about 150 feet away. Where’s the Sheriff or Police when you need them? That’s why they have no dang budget!……lol

OK, enough of my rant, back to the batts.
BillR Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

“at $3 a gallon of gas, the payback is within five years”.
———————————-
I wonder if this is compared to a Cobalt XFE or a 6 cyl Malibu? Interesting comment, anyway.

“A battery pack plant is an easy facility to set up, as it is not as automated as battery cell plants”
————————————
If the capacity is truly 40 million cells per month, that equates to 15 cells per second. Sounds like some serious machinery is needed here to reach this level of production.

Despite words to the contrary from an “LG Chem expert”, I still maintain that GM worked with LG Chem to devise this production methodology, as this is what is needed to drive down the cost of the batteries.

“In Korea, parent LG Chem is starting work on a dedicated battery cell assembly line for the Volt. It must be running about six months before Volt assembly begins, Patil said.”
———————————-

This seems about right. The cells are manufactured and then tested in Korea. They are then shipped to the US and assembled in the pack with all the associated instrumentation and controls. The packs are then shipped to Detroit for final Volt assembly.

It’s always been the battery technology that was key to the Volt’s success, and so far, everything in this report is positive.
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm

CaptJackSparrow

…besides I’m still looking for the right thick and heavy playing cards tuned to give me that perfect HD resonance!
Chia Clinton Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:54 pm

yee-hah! oh boy, poked my head outside my cabin and it got wet

big hair day now
David K (CT) Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm

Capt @44…

How about if we all just BLAST are radio’s so everyone knows we’re coming down the road? Other people do it!

Maybe we can have a theme song…”It’s Electric?”
Sherwood Schwartz Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:55 pm

They need to make a Volt faster than MaryAnn can seduce Gilligan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJOR24h9ZAo
eightzero Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm

Sure would like to see the supply contract between GM and LG Chem. Wonder what a “surgical bankruptcy” would do to the latter?
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm

BillR Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm

“at $3 a gallon of gas, the payback is within five years”.
———————————-
I wonder if this is compared to a Cobalt XFE or a 6 cyl Malibu? Interesting comment, anyway.
______________
Yes interesting comment, maybe it compares to a BMW 1 series.

Who cares about battery capacity and timing anyway since it wouldn’t impact the critical path unless capacity dips below 9,999 packs 13 months from now anyway.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm

@David K (CT)

“Maybe we can have a theme song…”It’s Electric?””

Isn’t that a Cha Cha song? My wife will play that, I kinda like it too…..It’s electric……boogiw woogie woogie….

How bout “Twisted Sisters” song “We’re not gonna take it!”
noel park Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:00 pm

#44 CaptJackSparrow:

Not this again, OMG. Most of the noise from modern cars comes from the tires and the aero disturbance. A Prius operating on batteries makes about 80% as much noise as an ICE car the same size. A non-issue, IMHO.

If there’s a problem, just do what we do in LA. Open the windows and blast out your Nortenos, raps, or whatever cultural statement you care to make at or above the threshold of pain.

They really love it when I roll up with my Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys going full blast!

Or how about “Transfusion” by Nervous Norvus?:

“Outa my way, I don’t drive with my horn!”
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:02 pm

We started with “battery plant construction” , now we’re all the way down to Chia Presidents (living in cabins, no less). Is it Friday, yet?
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:03 pm

@noel park 57
“Nortenos, raps”

Oh no he di-ent say “Nortenos”…..lol
You are def from LA esay!!!!
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm

@ carcus1
“We started with “battery plant construction” , now we’re all the way down to Chia Presidents (living in cabins, no less). Is it Friday, yet?”

Tha’s because we all know the batt pack is a non issue……lol
Steven P Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm

#PLJ

I’m sure you are right there is a segment of the market that will want an EREV. But definitely not everyone in the EV market. There is also a segment that want just as much a pure EV due to the less weight, less complexity, ease of maintainence, longer range, etc. One car can’t satify everyone.
Jim I Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:12 pm

Two things:

#1 What is the deal with the monkey guy? I am not getting what those posts are about…… In this thread it is post #27.

#2. Just because they could start to crank out some batteries does not mean they can assemble the complete car in the next six months. The time frame for this entire project has already been squeezed about as tight as it could be. The car was just announced in Jan, 2007, with a scheduled delivery date of Nov, 2010. It normally takes 5 years for a new model, and lets not forget that this is a brand new implementation of drive train technology for GM.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:16 pm

#60 CaptJack,

“Tha’s because we all know the batt pack is a non issue……lol”
__________________________________________________

Absolutely. Voltdotcommers know better than to sweat the small stuff .

http://k43.pbase.com/g4/33/376833/2/62196492.iPgTN8Yn.jpg
zipdrive Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:21 pm

I’m going to ask the Professor about all this battery stuff. He made batteries from coconuts.

Really – I’m going to ask him next time I see him. His name is Russell Johnson. The last time I saw him was in Rite-Aid, same isle (ha ha) as me. He lives on an island here in Washington State and I see him occasionally.

Once, I was standing in line at the grocery store, and he was ahead of me. I recognized him so I asked him how it was going. He said “Well, I’ve been rich, and I’ve been poor – and rich is better!”

Great guy though. Gave a lot of joy to a whole generation of people, got paid almost nothing, but is still in good spirits. The world needs more Professors like him.

Another time I saw him and I told him about an island off the coast of Puerto Rico called Gilligan’s Island. He said people have told him stories of little islands like that all over the world, named for Gilliagan’s island.
Roger Ramjet Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:24 pm

Battery Science is for babies. You only need 3 components.

1 Lemon
1 Copper Penny
1 Galvanized Nail

Stick the Penny and Nail in the ends of the Lemon and viola !
That’s right Instant 1 volt battery. That wasn’t so hard.

Now stick a few hundred of these in a car and you might have something people in Detroit like to call a Chevy Volt.

But the real question is:

Is the Volt a Lemon in disguise ?
noel park Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm

#58 carcus1 & #60 CaptJackSparrow:

Personally, I think we’re going in the right direction. Beats the h__l out of Takeo Fukui anyway.

#59 Capt JackSparrow:

“Elay” homie.

We also have “Narco Corridos”, if you prefer. My favorite translates to “The Suburban of Death”, wherein the “trafficante pistoleros” ride around in their black Suburban and blast their rival cartel members. I am not making this up!
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:29 pm

#64 zip,

Well there you go. I guess that “island of paradise” really is just what’s in you.

Nice anecdote.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:37 pm

#67 add,

Plus, if we run out of oil, then there’ll be plenty of opportunity for us all to be more like the professor.
Bob G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:39 pm

#61 Steven P Says, “… There is also a segment that want just as much a pure EV due to the less weight, less complexity, ease of maintainence, longer range, etc…”

If people expect less weight and longer range from a BEV, they will be sadly disappointed. The Volt’s 400 pound battery gets you 40 miles. A quick calculation says that, for a reasonable range on a BEV (240 miles, which is still far less than the EREV Volt), you need another 2,000 pounds of batteries. There’s no way that the range extender weighs anything close to that.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:40 pm

From the last thread we got going on this “mandated EV noise for the blind” issue:

“Old and busted: downloading ring tones.

New hotness: downloading car tones.”

#65:

Allow me to show you where you can ram your jet, Roger.
James K Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Wow, all the cable news shows are talking about GM closing all its plants for the next couple months. They are saying people might not buy cars when they hear about this and all the bankruptcy talk. Seems like a bad move, maybe they should have kept them open just for appearances. Could be a very big ripple effect. It’s not looking good for GM and the Volt guys.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Hey, I have an idea for a noise maker. You know those ring tones that only the youth can hear and the the old folks can’t? How bout we blast that tone to the max all the time?

noel, you can have the “federalis” play that as they take their drive.

Hmm…..I wonder if one can make something that can jus emmit that tone all the time at about 10-15 watts. Our student assistant here says it’s an irritating and painfull sound to some.
David K (CT) Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:56 pm

CaptJack @#72 says…”Our student assistant here says it’s an irritating and painfull sound to some”

Maybe The Monkey guy can give us his opinion.
ArkansasVolt Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 2:58 pm

#62 Jim I

The monkey guy is just spamming us until Lyle posts his review of driving the Volt.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

Noises for the volt:

I like the “ringtones” idea that could be changed daily, depending on the driver’s mood.

Horse galloping, train, paddle boat, 2 stroke dirt bike, jettsons spaceship, college fight song, fart noises. . . .oh the possibilities.

In fact, that’s a good aftermarket for any car. Prolly already been done.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm

From that same earlier thread:

“Maybe we could download

‘Hi, this is Vince for Sham Wow.’
‘Hi, this is Vince for Sham Wow.’
‘Hi, this is Vince for Sham Wow.’

That would make everyone run for their lives.”

Of course, now it would be:

‘Hi, thith ith Vinth for Tham Wow.’
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:03 pm

@carcus1
“I like the “ringtones” idea that could be changed daily, depending on the driver’s mood.”

Porn groans too with the background music,,,,bowchikawawaa…

Yeah I said it. Yawll wer thinking it but I said it!
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm

@Jackson 76

“‘Hi, thith ith Vinth for Tham Wow.’”

Thtopit Jacson, yoo tho baaat.

AHAHAHAH! Dude good one. That would be for the bay area in SF. Where the women are strong and the men are pretty.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:06 pm

#44 Cap’n Jack:

“Silent cars???
Hmmm……I always hear their tires crunching grime as they pull up. Anyone else?”

Remember when Lutz drove a Volt mule in DC, and the video got posted, here? The only sound you could hear from the mule was a little bit of that sound, as it rolled away …

====

#78:

You didn’t hear what happened to Vince? Google for details; all I’ll say here is that he got his tongue bit — in someone else’s mouth.
k-dawg Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:14 pm

Well here’s the plant closings for GM.
Hamtramck (Volt Plant) closed for June.
Hopefully they will take this opportunity to set up the Volt line.

Arlington, Texas — eight weeks starting May 11.

• Bowling Green, Ky. — week of July 13

• Detroit/Hamtramck — month of June

• Flint Assembly — eight weeks starting May 11

• Ft. Wayne — retimed shutdown from April 27 to May 4 and nine additional weeks starting May 11

• Lansing Grand River — four weeks starting May 4

• Lordstown, Ohio — three weeks starting June 1

• Pontiac Assembly — six weeks starting June 1

• Shreveport, La. — three weeks starting June 15

• Spring Hill, Tenn. — three weeks starting June 8

• Wilmington, Del. — two weeks starting June 15

• Wentzville, Mo. — three weeks starting June 8

• Silao, Mexico — seven weeks starting May 18

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20090423/AUTO01/904230466/GM+to+idle+13+plants+this+summer
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:16 pm

@Jackson 79

Found it…….OUCH!
His mug shot…….she kicked his A$s
David K (CT) Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm

k-dawg @ 80

Aren’t some of these shut-downs normal?
Vince Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm

Are you getting this, camera guy?

Cuz we can’t do this all day.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm

#79 Jackson,

“Remember when Lutz drove a Volt mule in DC, and the video got posted, here? The only sound you could hear from the mule was a little bit of that sound, as it rolled away …”
_______________________________________________

No, I heard fart noises.

All kidding aside. Lutz has been known to have quite a gas problem. Here’s some footage of him before his GM days (liked to be called “Frank” back then). Hard at work on our nations energy problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg-whG5QrBY
GM Volt Fan Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm

I want to see the FINAL production Volt prototypes on the road in a few months. Not just the Volt mules in Chevy Cruze bodies. I think I read somewhere that they’re supposed to be on the roads by July 4th. I’m not in TOO much of a rush to get the Volt into customer’s hands though. I just want GM to design Volt 1.0 as good as they possibly can make it. Test and retest the heck out of the final Volt prototypes … for EVERYTHING … every tiny detail. It needs to be a rock solid vehicle and get good publicity in 2011 when they start arriving at dealerships.
Matt Drudge Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm

It’s about that time GM.

Shut’er Down. Turn out the lights. The party’s over.

_/\___/\__________________________________
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm

#84 caucus:

“No, I heard fart noises.”

Well, the blind can still smell, can’t they?

(…and before Cap’n Jack can jump in I’ll add: “Only if they don’t bathe.” I’m here all week, ladies and gentlemen…)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:32 pm

@Jackson

“Well, the blind can still smell, can’t they?”

In that case, I’ll never be able to sneak up anywhere.
Dang chicken wings and beer.
Electric Vehicle Owner Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:39 pm

On the battery chemistry choice front, from Kyodo News International – McClatchy-Tribune Information Services via COMTEX, many, many hours old:

The Honda president “said Honda’s CR-Z sports car hybrid to be launched next year will not be powered with lithium ion batteries, but suggested the automaker may be ready to install the batteries in the hybrid version of the Fit compact or the second-generation Civic hybrid that will be launched at an undetermined date after 2010. ”

Brilliant, put the lower energy density, heavier batteries in the sports car and the higher energy density, lighter batteries in compact grocery getters. Why didn’t I think of that?
k-dawg Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm

#82 82.

David K (CT) Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:18 pm .k-dawg @ 80

Aren’t some of these shut-downs normal?
========

The normal shutdown periods i’m familiar with is only for 2 weeks at the end of June beginning of July. There’s also a December shutdown period.

Oh, I forgot to mention the 1600 white collar workers who will lose their jobs too. UAW workers will get 70% of their salary during shutdown periods.
statik Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:47 pm

#15 ThombDbhomb siad:

He dismissed criticism about the expense of batteries.
He assured that “there are no showstoppers” which would delay the launch. GM has confidence in battery performance. ICEs can be available in time.

Things sound positive.

/waiting for statik perspective.
————————————–
#33 noel park said:

Well I don’t presume to speak for statik, but the $64Billion question has to be, are they going to find the resources from somewhere, anywhere, to keep the doors open and the lights on until all of those wonderful things happen.

The existential financial crisis is a bigger threat to the future of the Volt than any technical challenge I can imagine. JMHO.

=========================
=========================
Unfortunately your request can not be processed at this time because Statik is out of the office and at the Happiest Place on Earth.

/enjoy the calm…the storm comes back sunday
Pentastar No More Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:52 pm

It looks like Chrysler is bankrupt.
Treasury is willing to give lenders 22 cents on the dollar, take it or else.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:54 pm

A bit off topic, and two days old, but:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30334501/

Bright Automotive announces full-size “Idea” van for fleet owners, with 30 mile AER.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:56 pm

#92:

“It looks like Chrysler is bankrupt.”

I guess they couldn’t Dodge it any longer, huh?
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

@Jackson 94

Their EV product got “Shor Circuit”….lol
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

@Jackson 94

Their debt was wayy to Hemi for them to cary on…..
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:00 pm

@Jackson 94

Their products wern’t Jeep enough…..
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm

… isn’t it a little early for you, Cap’n?

Okay, “products wern’t Jeep enough” was pretty funny.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm

lol…..

Ima get another beer….
brb
maharguitar Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:16 pm

One of the problems with both GM and Chrysler is Credit Default Swaps. CDSs are a form on insurance that investors take out on loans in case the loan fails. You can get them for corporate bonds too. You only collect if the the bond issuer defaults on the bonds. Agreeing to accept 22 or 35 cents on the dollar before default means that that is what you get. If you wait for chapter 11 or 13, than your insurance will come into effect and you get the amount for which you insured the bonds. In most cases that value is much higher than 22 or 35 cents. With this kind of deal, why would the investors even consider taking a debt to equity trade or even talk to GM or Chrysler?
Road Runner Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:20 pm

I wish Chrysler ‘cuda held on longer.
N Riley Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

Jackson and CaptJackSparrow

That was real cute comments. Nice chuckle.
maharguitar Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm

#34 Gilligan
You’re going to have to get off the island because everyone know that you have “no phones, no lights, no motorcars”
N Riley Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:23 pm

#100 maharguitar

If true, you have a good point. I know I would not take less than my “insurance” would pay me.
N Riley Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:28 pm

I don’t think the battery is the problem anymore. It is the time line to go from no plant to one to produce Volts. Time is running out fast. GM needs to get on with GSB or the administration needs to cough up the money to keep them going. The GSB is the best option, in my opinion. It is cleaner and would allow the “new” GM to cut loose the “ties that bind” them. Problem with GM and the UAW is that GM would probably end up with the same sorry contract after re-negotiating a new contract with the UAW after GSB. GM was pretty stupid in past negotiations. What has changed to make them any smarter? Nothing, as far as I can see.

Edited: When you speak of the union that is holding your company “hostage” as your partner, as GM does in reference to the UAW, then you are pretty stupid. I like to call a spade a spade. The UAW, as it is presently formed and managed, is a threat to GM, Chrysler, Ford and every auto supplier in the country. OK, more battery talk. What else is there to be said? Not much. We don’t know enough yet.
MarkinWI Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:33 pm

N Riley @ #23 – Let’s say that its 133,000 per year, not per month. Does that include the new dedicated plant that is not yet built, just the one dedicated line described, or that plus existing resources (if needed)? Static, where you at? Stop slapping around Donald Duck for a second. A few days ago you said there was no way we could build enough batteries for 1 million electrics in the U.S. by 2015. How does this data work into your analysis?
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:35 pm

maharguitar #100

How do you get insurance for when the whole planet goes hiccup, and what insurer that will survive that and be imprudent enough to offer the appropriate coverage at the same time?

Smart money says check the conditions for the insurance (CDS) to pay off on defaults, I’ll bet they’re a lot of nasty surprises in the fine print.
GeorgeB Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:36 pm

I never thought I’d see the day, but I think GM is done for.

Truly sad……
N Riley Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:39 pm

#106 MarkinWI

I assume the new plant LG Chem is building in Korea. I am not sure if it is a new plant or a new line at an existing plant. I did not read the story Lyle based his post on.

Statik, have you seen the night time parade. It is great. Some of the best entertainment at WDW is at night. I plan being there later this year, possibly during Thanksgiving, with my grand kids and wife. I think they start having the Christmas parades by then. The grand kids would go back every week if I would let them. Just too expensive and too far. Not as far as you had to travel, though. Enjoy yourself!!!
Jim I Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:44 pm

OK, since this appears to be silly day…..

Vince #83 Says:

“Are you getting this, camera guy?

Cuz we can’t do this all day.”

=============

The prostitute must have been German, because

All together now….

The Germans make the best stuff!
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:46 pm

Is statik in Disney WORLD (FL) or LAND (CA Anaheim)?
Jim I Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:48 pm

FL – He was going to EPCOT, remember?
Dave G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:52 pm

Note that the CEO of CPI said LG was constructing the assembly line, not the plant building itself. In addition, I believe some of the machines for manufacturing other types of batteries will be similar, if not the same.

My point here is that it shouldn’t take LG very long to ramp up for this. Saying they are starting to construct a new plant may be a little misleading in this context. I believe they are just setting up the assembly line in an existing plant.
CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 4:57 pm

I saw a segment on “How they do it” on the Scince channel and it was on Lithiu Ion Polyer cell production. Man let me tell you. The machine does it all for them. stacks the polymer and insulators, bags it seals it and electrically binds a solder tab on it then on to the next one. It was pretty neat to see how they make them. They showed the prismatic cells but all they were are the regular polymer packs but bigger in a PVC case. Then they showed it run in regual speed and it can spit cells out like the newspapers can print the daily news.
Nelson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 pm

Altair sounds like a potential player in the battery market.

If they’re good enough for the U.S. Army?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Altair-Nanotechnologies-Ships-iw-14994713.html

http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/fullpage.asp?f=1&BzID=546&to=cp&Nav=0&LangID=1&s=0&ID=10724
Dave G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm

#115 Nelson Says: Altair sounds like a potential player in the battery market. If they’re good enough for the U.S. Army?
————————————————————————————–
Many things that are good for military or aerospace applications are not cost competitive in the consumer market.
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:22 pm

CaptJackSparrow ” They showed the prismatic cells but all they were are the regular polymer packs but bigger in a PVC case.”
____________

So the prismatic cells are being made on automated lines? That’s good news, I remember when some one was commenting as Battery Man and said that was impossible. That’s when I decided to stop lurking and make some comments.
Jackson Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:58 pm

#117

“I remember when some one was commenting as Battery Man”

I think he’s commenting as “Monkey Man” now.
Bob G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 pm

# 90 k-dawg Says, “… UAW workers will get 70% of their salary during shutdown periods.”

You gotta be kidding! That’s almost as disgusting as those AIG executives taking bonuses on the taxpayer’s dime. Seriously, milking your employer (who is on the brink of bankruptcy) for 70% salary in exchange for 0% work is inexcusable. We need someone like Ronald Reagan to “negotiate” with them.
noel park Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:22 pm

#75 carcus1:

I sued to carry a little box in my truck with a button, which when pressed made a noise like a 50 cal machine gun. Wonderful for letting off steam on the world’s largest parking lot, aka the 405 Freeway. My wife made me get rid of it though. She was certain that I was going to get killed in an LA road rage incident. She was probably right.

#80 k-dawg:

Any bets on how many of those never reopen? It’s happened before.

#107:

Can anyone say AIG? And WE own it now, LOL.

#116 Dave G:

Without a doubt the understatement of the year.
Vince Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:36 pm

No, the hooker wasn’t German. She was a good ol’ Orlando hooker.

But look, you’re going to spend $20 a month on paper towels anyway, so here’s how to order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwRISkyV_B8
JEC Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm

“at $3 a gallon of gas, the payback is within five years.”
===========================================

So, if he is talking payback on the battery only, then this would roughly calculate as follows:

3 X 12,000/yr = 36,000 miles, @ $3/gal and assume 30 mpg, then you would spend 36,000/30 * 3 = $3,600

Then you would need to subtract off the cost you spend in electricity, and even assuming best case of running 100% of the time on battery, and 0.10/kw-hr, so 36,000/40 = 900 Kw-hr * 0.10 = $90, which comes to $3,510.

I am afraid Mr Patil is a little over optimistic. I highly doubt your going to buy a 16 KwHr battery for about $3,500.
kdawg Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:56 pm

119. Bob G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 pm .# 90 k-dawg Says, “… UAW workers will get 70% of their salary during shutdown periods.”

You gotta be kidding! That’s almost as disgusting as those AIG executives taking bonuses on the taxpayer’s dime. Seriously, milking your employer (who is on the brink of bankruptcy) for 70% salary in exchange for 0% work is inexcusable. We need someone like Ronald Reagan to “negotiate” with them.
———————————————

They will collect unemployment and GM will subsidize the rest to get to 70%
Dave G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:02 pm

#122 JEC,

They’ve already disclosed the cost of the battery pack.

The CEO of Compact Power, Inc., the subsidiary of LG Chem that currently builds the Volt battery packs, says the battery pack costs $1000/ available kWh:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html

He also made it very clear that this is for available kWh, and not the total kWh capacity of the battery. The Volt has 8 available kWh, so the Volt’s battery pack currently costs $8000.

He also expects battery pack prices to be 1/4 to 1/2 of that in the next 5-10 years. This corresponds to $2000 to $4000 for a 2nd or 3rd generation Volt battery pack.

Note that initally, the $7500 tax credit offsets most of the cost of the battery. By the time the tax credits expire, the battery costs should be somewhere around the $3500 figure you calculated.
Dave G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:11 pm

By the way, the Volt’s battery pack maintains it’s 8kWh of available energy throughout it’s lifetime. They do this by changing the full and empty points, as shown in the example below:

VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8

This chart may not be 100% accurate, but from what GM and CPI have told us, it seems pretty close to what we’ll see in real life, so it should be a good example.
Dave G Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:26 pm

#109 N Riley Says: I am not sure if it is a new plant or a new line at an existing plant. I did not read the story Lyle based his post on.
————————————————————————————–
It’s a new line at an existing plant. The Detroit News story doesn’t mention a new plant:
“In Korea, parent LG Chem is starting work on a dedicated battery cell assembly line for the Volt.”
Bruce Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:41 pm

This blog reminds me of the band on the titanic. Talking about plug specs and batteries while the company folds around itself with huge news stories everyday. That’s 4 big developments that could mean the end of GM (and the Volt), now that have been ingored.

But hey, what color will the door handles be?
PLJ Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 10:52 pm

Dave G says @125 says:

By the way, the Volt’s battery pack maintains it’s 8kWh of available energy throughout it’s lifetime. They do this by changing the full and empty points, as shown in the example below:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
This chart may not be 100% accurate, but from what GM and CPI have told us, it seems pretty close to what we’ll see in real life, so it should be a good example.

—————————————————————-

This is the kind of information I like.

And I keep getting more impressed with the Volt technology as time goes by.
LauraM Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:25 pm

#123 kdawg says:

“They will collect unemployment and GM will subsidize the rest to get to 70%”
—————————-
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t make it any better. In fact, it makes it worse, because now they’re directly milking the taxpayer as well as GM. Unemployment is supposed to be instead of, not in addition to. If I lived in one of the affected states, I’d be livid.
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 pm

Bruce #127

And the band plays on.
carcus1 Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 pm

#114 CaptJack,

I don’t think it’s this video, is it? (Cause it looks slow and hand crafted here)

http://science.videosift.com/video/How-its-made-Lithium-Ion-Batteries
jeffhre Says:
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 pm

LauraM 129 “Unemployment is supposed to be instead of, not in addition to. If I lived in one of the affected states, I’d be livid.

I don’t get it. In my state we pay into state unemployment insurance for the times we’re not employed. Why would anyone care if my employer kicked in a little more for me? No one complains about getting clear out your desk and don’t come back here any more after 5 o’clock tonight payments.
carcus1 Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 12:09 am

#120 Noel Park,

Might be fun to drive around in Compton with your 50 cal horn going off and see what kind of new friends you could make.

Your wife was probably right. Toys like that are for rural Montana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP6NrzTnBxk
DonC Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 1:04 am

#129 LauraM

You are completely off base here. You keep calling it “Unemployment” when it’s actually “Unemployment Insurance”. Why is it called “Insurance”? Because the money comes from insurance premiums paid by employees and employers. It is NOT funded by taxpayers. You’re as justified as whining about this as you would be whining about the fact that someone made a claim on their car insurance policy after a car accident.

Unless of course you’re saying you don’t like the concept of insurance. You’d have a point there. But since they’ve effectively paid for it, I’ve never had a problem with an employee making an unemployment claim.
stas peterson Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 3:24 am

This is OFF subject but Statik raised the issue of whether there will be a GM to build the Volt.

Have any of yous seen the following announcements. The government wanted Chrysler’s Debt holders to tender as much as $6 Billion of Chrysler debt for equity. it was over tendered at $7 billion offered, beyond anyones hope. That would solve the debt holder and most intransigent problem. Then the issue turns to the UAW and CAW to bring forward the 2010 date to equalize pay to transplant pay. And accept VEBA payments in stock.

The Fiat Union leader in Italy told the Italian press that he spoke with Getteifinger and the UAW would comply and passed on that so would the CAW. When the noise arose by the UAW, the Italian Union leader backed down from his statement.

If so, Chrysler much more precarious than GM, will have done an out of court reorganization without filing Chap 11. That would bode well for GM too.

The furloughs will bring GM inventories in line, but it will cause more loses for GM. They must feel they have or can get the Cash Flow money to rolling shut down factories, to bring inventories down. More omens.

If true
Chris Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 5:01 am

Two points here :
If the payback is within 5 years at 3$ a gallon I let you do the math at 8$ a gallon in Europe where I live )

About the Volt DNA :
The Volt was inspired by the Tesla
The Tesla was inspired by the Tzero from AC propulsion (powertrain & Li Ion bat.)
The Tzero was the first EV to adopt the Li Ion bat.
BUT AC propulsion founder worked in the GM EV1 before and used the EV1 techno to create the Tzero prowertrain !!!

Chris
BillR Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 6:00 am

#122 JEC

I will look at the Volt vs. a Malibu with the 6 cyl engine (GM likes to say the Volt is comparable to a 250 HP sedan). Obviously, the Malibu has 5 seats, the Volt only 4, but let’s run with this comparison.

The Malibu is rated 17/26, with the 3.6L 6 cyl. This is a composite rating of 20 mpg. The EPA considers 15,000 miles per year as an average. Therefore, per the EPA, this car will consume 750 gal per year. Over 5 years, this is 3750 gallons, and a cost of $11,250 at $3 per gal.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

For the Volt, I will assume 10,000 miles per year electric, and 5000 miles per year on gas. With electricity at $0.10 per kWh, and 40 miles on 8 kWh, energy costs are $0.02 per mile. The 5000 miles on range extender at 50 mpg equates to 100 gal per year.

Therefore, the fuel costs for the Volt over 5 years are (5*10,000*.02) + (5*100*3) = $2500.

In this scenario, the 5 year energy savings are $11,250 – 2500 = $8,750.

A loaded Malibu LTZ will cost about $30 k, so if this is the comparison, the Volt would be about $38,750.

Now a comparison against a Cobalt would be entirely different.

The Cobalt XFE is rated 25/37. Per the EPA, its annual fuel consumption is 500 gal per year. So its 5 year fuel costs are $7500 at $3 per gallon. In this comparison, 5 year energy savings versus the Volt are $5000.

A loaded Cobalt might list for about $24 K., so this would put the Volt at about $29,000. (Note, this price might include the $7500 tax credit).

So it will be interesting to see which comparison Mr. Patil is using to arrive at his 5 year payback.
MarkinWI Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 8:25 am

Dave G @126 – My bad. The new plant in Detroit will assemble cells into packs, and so will not imply increased capacity. That admitted, the remaining questions I posed are still valid.
LauraM Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 9:06 am

#132 jeffhre/ #134 DonC

I don’t have a problem with unemployment insurance. We need a safety net. The problem is that the unemployment insurance reserves are running out, and states are having to subsidize the reserves. That’s why part of the stimulus is to plug in the holes.

And repeated furloughs rather than layoffs meant to artificially extend the time on unemployment strikes me as abuse of the system. Having the employer subsidize the unemployment just aggravates the abuse. If you’re getting money from your former employer, you’re obviously not looking for another job. Nor do you need it as much as someone who isn’t getting money from the employer.

To me, this is like making a claim on your car insurance after driving your car into a tree to get the insurance money. Basically, GM is using unemployment to help them with their fixed labor costs. But no other company (other than Ford and Chrysler) regards labor as a fixed cost. And they wouldn’t have to if the UAW didn’t require them to pay their workers after a layoff.
Bob G Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

#132 jeffhre Says, “…In my state we pay into state unemployment insurance for the times we’re not employed. Why would anyone care if my employer kicked in a little more for me?”

This makes it twice as despicable. First, people who are not really unemployed are taking money out of the fund that we *all* pay into, making less available for those who really lose their jobs. Second, GM is using my tax money to pay workers for not working.

At least a few of the AIG executives were honorable enough to return their bonuses. With the entitlement mentality I see from the UAW, I doubt we’ll see them doing any such thing.

I really want to have the option of buying an American car (not just some Japanese car with a few assembly jobs in Ohio), but I am losing hope that the management and employees at GM are willing to accept the new business realities and make the changes necessary to adapt. I’m not saying that executives need to stay at Motel 6 and workers need to return to sweat shop conditions, but the excesses of the past are just not sustainable.
HybridGirl Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

I’m wondering how these Volt batteries perform at elevated temps, like 60C. What would the cycle life be at 100% DoD? Anyone?
fred Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 1:30 pm

# 142st!!
For the first time!!
They better sell me a stripped version cuz I don’t need any blueteeth tweeters stuff.
Herm Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 11:27 am

the bad part is the 100% DoD, and you want to keep them under 130deg F… in those conditions you could get about 50 cycles.

…………………………

#141 HybridGirl Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I’m wondering how these Volt batteries perform at elevated temps, like 60C. What would the cycle life be at 100% DoD? Anyone?
Lev Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

#8 Steven P

I think Telsa will be remembered with the honor of redefining the automobile. GM is jumping on the train too, but lets give credit where credit is due. They were the first real viable EV, that changed the game.

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Tesla uses the new technology in a very expensive and unattainable (for most) package, much like the first production internal combustion engine on the Benz runabout (three wheeled) from 1885. Model T was the first to use the new tech in a mass-produced product. So, the Volt is in fact the new T, and will be remembered as such.
HybridGirl Says:
April 27th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

I heard the GM Volt battery has a life of 3K-4K under perfect lab conditions but that it then at elevated temps collapses to 2K-3K. I also heard elevated temp life is 600 cycles. Unlike some other makers, I have not seen any lab charts or company released charts for this battery. Do they exist????

the bad part is the 100% DoD, and you want to keep them under 130deg F… in those conditions you could get about 50 cycles.

…………………………

#141 HybridGirl Says:
April 24th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I’m wondering how these Volt batteries perform at elevated temps, like 60C. What would the cycle life be at 100% DoD? Anyone?
jeffhre Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:43 pm

My understanding is that Martin Eberhard, a Tesla founder requested and paid for AC Propulsion’s investment in the Tzero’s adoption of Li Ion batteries to verify the battery types viability!

At that point Eberhard tried without success to convince Alan Cocconi (AC; poetic isn’t it) to move toward mass production. Eberhard et al, moved to found Tesla
jeffhre Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:46 pm

“I’m not saying that executives need to stay at Motel 6 and workers need to return to sweat shop conditions, but the excesses of the past are just not sustainable.”

You must feel that management retaining the option to furlough workers when demand is low is an excess of the past?
jeffhre Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 7:50 pm

“Model T was the first to use the new tech in a mass-produced product.” 1908

The Curved Dash Olds holds that distinction. 1901

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