AND 
LG Chem Confident About Volt Launch Date
LG Chem is the Korean battery manufacturer GM has chosen to supply lithium ion cells for the Chevy Volt’s battery pack. The company was chosen based on its chemistry, cost, production capacity, purity standards, and ability to deliver on time.
Prabakhar Patil is the CEO of Compact Power Inc, an LG subsidiary that helped GM design the Volt’s integrated pack. His company will continue to partner with GM on further pack development even though GM itself will be taking over on pack assembly and future pack design.
If any doubts remain about GM’s or LG’s ability to deliver, Patil told Reuters that Volt production remains “on schedule” for production launch in November 2010.
He noted that GM is pressing ahead on the Volt program despite financial difficulties.
“From GM’s side, it’s their highest priority program,” said Patil. “I continue to see the same kind of commitment. I don’t see any near term or imminent issues.”
These sentiments are regularly echoed by the GM team executive team responsible for building the Volt. In fact today, GM’s VP of Energy and Environment Beth Lowery said “that despite the current economic challenges and the fact that we are undergoing great changes to reinvent the company, resources for “green” initiatives are being preserved.”
Source (Reuters)
73 Responses to “LG Chem Confident About Volt Launch Date”
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:13 am
yeah! No 1 for what ever that is worth! I’m pretty sure living in Minnesota and not being the type to want to pay up just to be first means I won’t see one until deep into 2011 or even 2012. Go GM!
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:24 am
Would be nice if LG would give updates on pack developments & cost. What about their plant in Michigan? Is that “on schedule”?
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:26 am
Go GM!
Never give up. Never surrender!
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:33 am
This is very comforting.
#1 ronr64:
I am thinking 2013. I hope you are more correct than I.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
K-Dawg:
I don’t think L.G. will ever disclose costs because they do not sell these batteries directly to consumers. It is a business to business transaction and while the cost associated with the pack can be estimated, neither side wants the true costs known to the public.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:39 am
I get a very strong feeling, based mostly on intuition, that GM is hiding information and plans to the effect that they will sell way more of these in the first 12 months than they are letting on.
I see very high pent up demand (this site, other sites, my friends and associates), and i just can’t see why people in the market for a $35k car would not jump at the chance to “never” use gas again. Yes, i know all about what other cars i can get for $35k blah blah, but i really do think there are many, many Americans (in the millions) ready to buy a car for national security and environmental reasons, as long as they don’t feel like they are getting royally screwed. And GM has proved with its last few vehicles that its quality issues (the main thing keeping many people away from GM in general) are a thing of the past.
I’m very bullish on the Volt and i think the 1 million plug-ins by whenever is very doable – especially if gas starts to show an upward trend again.
Out…
Andrew
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April 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 am
Here is a side question:
According to Bloomberg, LG Chem is South Korea’s largest chemicals maker. They show two stock listing codes: LGCLF:US and 051910:KS
Which is the better investment as it related to VOLT production, and can you buy those online like any other stock?
I lost plenty on GM stocks, but the time seems right to try again to get in early on battery stocks.
Any suggestions?
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I too wonder what the battery will cost but more important what will the charge on the battery be in 5, 10 or 15 years? If LG and GM can keep the battery working at 80% in 10 years that would be great ….. 20% not so much.
I am always a little scared to buy “new” technology. I like to buy something that has a track record so the bugs are worked out. That being said I would love to buy a Volt today. That is if they can get the cost down to the $25k range. That is the only way it will make dollar sense for me. (My wife drives about 40 miles round trip to work 3 days a week.) I know, I know no more oil but at the end of the day I need to figure out if it is going to save me money. If it is a $40k+ car then no way will it work ….. unless gas costs $5+ a gallon.
Keep it going GM.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
#8 Evil says
I too wonder what the battery will cost but more important what will the charge on the battery be in 5, 10 or 15 years? If LG and GM can keep the battery working at 80% in 10 years that would be great ….. 20% not so much.
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This argument is why some have favored an arrangement for leasing rather than buying the battery. Leasing also might take away anxiety at the time of resale in that the used-car purchaser can avoid worrying about a too-old battery.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm
@solo2500nt 5
“It is a business to business transaction and while the cost associated with the pack can be estimated, neither side wants the true costs known to the public.”
In other words, the packaging and chemistry is all proprietary and you can have one. This basically shuts out everyone from trying to compete in the marketing for third party batt mfgrs for the Volt. Only up till a Volt is sold to someone who wants to hack…uhh…..I mean reverse engineer the technology and determine the actual specs.
Not that I would do anything like that.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
@Andrew 6
“I get a very strong feeling, based mostly on intuition, that GM is hiding information and plans to the effect that they will sell way more of these in the first 12 months than they are letting on. ”
I have a feeling that when they release the actual price it will shock everyone and they will flock to the dealers for the Volt.
That is of course just MHO.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
LG Chem isn’t the only player in the game. The competition for the battery market is just as fierce as the car market and may decide the future of the global car industry.
The big players are probably going to be BYD, Panasonis, and LG Chem.
The North American companies are going to be A123, Enerdel, and Johnson Controls. I’d like to see articles on where these companies are headed.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Patil should only speak for LG’s ability to deliver battery cells to GM. He shouldn’t speak about GM’s ability to deliver Volts on time. Saying that LG and GM have not changed battery cell delivery plans is encouraging.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Anyway to shoehorn a couple of Gen II batteries and a bruiser electric motor into one of these?
http://www.kerbeck.com/
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:36 pm
#9 RB says
This argument is why some have favored an arrangement for leasing rather than buying the battery. Leasing also might take away anxiety at the time of resale in that the used-car purchaser can avoid worrying about a too-old battery.
_______________________________
Are you talking about operations like Better Place? Are there still plans ongoing for battery swapping stations and leases in the bay area and Hawaii?
I don’t think the Nissan eRogue’s they were looking at using were ever considered in that million cars by 2015 estimate.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
All I can say is:
The sooner the better, and as many as you can deliver….
Go GM! – Go GM Volt Team!!!
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
#8 Evil C, lets hope gas doesn’t get that high. Since we will be taxed into poverty by our various US governments, $5 gas would destroy the worldwide economy in its current weak state.
The thing to beware, by Novemeber we could see hyper inflation kicking into gear.
I like the Volt. Everyone who buys one needs to understand you actually lose thousands of dollars while you own it. You buy it to feel better not to save money. Don’t even get me started get me started on the non-issue of man made global warming/cooling.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm
#9 RB
This argument is why some have favored an arrangement for leasing rather than buying the battery. Leasing also might take away anxiety at the time of resale in that the used-car purchaser can avoid worrying about a too-old battery.
================================
I have never leased a car as I could never stay under the 10k miles, for my daily driver, they give you each year. And at the end of the life of the car (when I trade it in or sell it) I would like to have something to put towards a new one.
I wonder how leasing a battery would work? After 5 years you have to trade in the battery for a new one? Do you think you would have a car payment and a battery payment? 5 years down the road (no pun intended) your car is paid off but you have to get a new $5000 battery? Talk about not being able to save much money over fuel. I think GM should sell the car with a 10 year battery warranty that is guaranteed to still hold an 80% charge. Heck maybe it will still hold a good charge and this is a non point.
Just wondering how a leasing a part of a car would work ….. would be like leasing a transmission on my Dodge Ram. I know at about 120k miles it is going to need rebuilt but when you have a 8 year old truck with only 39k miles on it it may last 20 years. If you have a 2008 with 80k miles on it may not make it 10 years. Wouldn’t more use on a battery = faster replacement? I’m sure that 90% of volt buyers will drive the car at least 5 days a week but some may run the heck out of it and some may not.
Just wondering out loud.
PS-I’m sure that when Static is back from riding the GM test track today he will be able to run some numbers.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
#17 Adrian
Hyper inflation …. you got the straight.
I too pray we don’t see $5 a gallon because you think things are bad now!
As for “man made global warming/cooling” What you don’t want to get jumped on today? …. You do know it is “Earth Day” right? Al Gore would be very disappointed with you Adrian.
I’m not however.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:03 pm
#15 MarkH says
Are you talking about operations like Better Place? Are there still plans ongoing for battery swapping stations and leases in the bay area and Hawai
I was thinking about a lease from GM or perhaps from LG through GM.
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#18 Evil Conservative says
I wonder how leasing a battery would work? After 5 years you have to trade in the battery for a new one?
My thought was that one would lease the battery for a period of 5 years, for example, and that there would be a periodic payment (say monthly) that might be included the car payment. The critical part would be that responsibility for the battery would remain with GM and LG, and if during the time of the lease the battery failed they would give you another one. At the end of the lease, the normal thing to do would be to lease another battery, or a new battery (possibly an improved type of battery).
In a way the battery is a consumable so it is sensible to pay for it as one goes along.
I don’t know if I would like this plan or not, but I can see that it has some advantages, especially during the formative years of large automotive batteries.
For a costly item with an uncertain lifetime of an individual unit (likely pretty predictable for a group), it is a way to share the risks. Also, at time of resale I think it will be an advantage to the owner if the owner has fewer dollars invested in the car and the buyer doesn’t have to get into speculation about how much longer the existing battery will keep on going.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
@Evil Conservative 18
“I think GM should sell the car with a 10 year battery warranty that is guaranteed to still hold an 80% charge. Heck maybe it will still hold a good charge and this is a non point.”
It’s a non point. GM will warrant the batt 10yrs. The over over spec’d the batt. LiFePO4 prismatic cels have a typical cycle of 2000-3000. We’ll use the 2000 for this example. The Batt is designed to operate in a window well within its DOD. So even if the batt did cycle within the range of mfgr (LG) DOD a 2000 times, means deplete as low as possible in one day then charge to full, every day, you will be able to do this for 5.4 years. But since GM overspec’d and created an operating window, you will never cycle close to max DOD and therfore “short cycle” the batt pack which is not counted as a full cycle at all. All of which means the battery will last longer than 10 years because LiFePO4 cells like to not be cycled to full DOD and likes to be short cycled as opposed to NiMH that hates being short cycled.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
This is nice to hear but the big test is whether the first production intent Volts roll off the line this summer. If that doesn’t happen on schedule then the skeptics among us will be vindicated. If it does happen then perhaps they will cool the harping. Personally I was a whole lot more impressed with the clock than Mr. Patil’s comments. Talk is cheap but putting a countdown clock out there for all to see is an entirely different matter.
It is, however, yet one more piece of evidence, added to the increasing mound of evidence, suggesting the Volt is on schedule. It’s great to know that we’ll soon have a much better idea of whether this is right or wrong.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
IMHO, I think the battery is no longer an issue.
Keep moving foreward….
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:14 pm
#20 and #21,
That all makes sense to me. Thanks for the info.
CaptJack …. My dad drives 90 miles Round trip to work each day and can plug in the car while at work. Thus getting 80 all electric miles each day. Do you think that the battery life would be cut in half with the extra charging? The battery will never get below like 30% charge anyway …. so the plug in charging may not matter at all when it comes to battery life.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
With the possible exception of a few helper monkeys, I’ve learned that a vast majority of primates are very selfish and destructive. Don’t let the cute Curious George videos and other propanganda fool you. It’s all part of their plan to make you think they’re harmless.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Evil @ 24 says…Do you think that the battery life would be cut in half with the extra charging?
——————————————-
I myself have a ’round trip commute of 74 miles and I also intend to plug in at work.
I have asked your question before and received the answer I expected…”yes, the battery life would be cut in half.”
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
@Evil Conservative 24
“Do you think that the battery life would be cut in half with the extra charging?”
No.
Remember, in the Volt, when you see the SOC read 0% or no charge or low or whatever, this really means you are “Actually” close to 30% SOC. Which is far enough away from the mfgrs (LG) minimum charge state to be cinsidered a full cycle. Then you plug in and charge but only to approx 90%. Which is again not a full cycle.
The SOC (State Of Charge) for tha pack and the readouts are to “Fool you” by design to protect the batt. When you are at full 100% SOC you are actually at ~90% SOC and when you have depleted your charge and it tells you you are at 0 SOC, you are really at 30% SOC. It is designed to keep you in what they call the “Sweet Spot” of the battery’s SOC.
If you recharge eventhough your batt pack is not depleted, this will not harm/damage or reduce the batt’s performance. Within the batt pack are complex electronics and sensors on a per cell and/or per internal pack bassis that monitors everything. Most importantly is the method of cell balancing. This is done by the internal BMS of that pack and all readouts go to the main computer of the car for display. The balancing part is the most important becuase it makes sure that all cells perform the same so you get the maximum performance from the pack.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
This is very exciting news, hopefully it will be on time.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
@David K (CT) 26
“I have asked your question before and received the answer I expected…”yes, the battery life would be cut in half.”
Who told you that?
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
For all the comments about battery capacity in 5, 10, 15 years why is anyone talking about this? Who keeps a car for 10 years any more? This is a fru-fru car like a BMW, not a Chevy truck which one should expect to last 10 to 20 years. I thought the auto industry expects people to trade-in, sell, move up to a new car every 3 to 5 years.
I can certainly see concern if you wanted to buy a USED Volt. Yet even that has a different spin because even though powertrain warranties are up to 100,000 miles they are still not 10 years. (Except for Chrysler? “Lifetime?”) BUT I own a Honda Civic Hybrid and having bought it in California I can tell you I have piece of paper from Honda saying if the 200 pound battery pack sitting in the trunk “fails” within 10 years or 100,000 miles it is covered under the Honda new car warranty and will be replaced WITHOUT prorating (as opposed to the 12V battery sitting under the hood that starts the car). Concerned about the battery in a Volt after 5 to 10 years? Don’t be. There seems to be legislation that mandates automakers treat these battery packs in a special way that at least until recently far exceeded the powertrain warranty in almost every car sold in America.
Also, I wouldn’t be too concerned about a used Volt’s battery. It’s battery pack should be in better shape than the used VW Passat’s engine all things being equal (i.e. mileage, etc). The reason being GM seems to be VERY conservative regarding charge/discharge and all the other things the battery is subjected too. In fact, these first batteries may be the best, longest lasting batteries as they will be treated so conservatively. Gen 2, 3 and latter packs may not last as long as experience will tell GM they can engineer a 10 year battery (and then the warranty runs out!) Sorry for the cynicism!
I wonder if the Federal government realizes they may be on the hook for 10 years (at least for the battery) regarding GM hybrid vehicles? There was a news story saying the Feds would back GM warranties.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
CaptJack @ 29 says…Who told you that?
—————————–
The guy with the diagrams (Dave G.?)
Or maybe the guy with the gallons per year (same guy?)
And this makes/made sense to me because I think/thought that the battery has a certain amount of charge “cycles.”
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:50 pm
@KentT 30
I think the first gen batt packs for the Volt are going to be soo over spec’d that the next gen will be less over spec’d. Meaning the first Gen pack will probably be better/stronger/longer lasting than any of the new gen.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
#2 k-dawg:
I bet if the plant in Michigan gets “behind schedule”, they will figure out a way to build the first few thousand in Korea. Whaddaya think?
#6 Andrew:
Good man! I’m with you. A little bullishness is exactly what we need. Thanks.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I agree with Capt Jack. The first Volts have to be perfect in their function or they will get killed by the reviews. So I expect the battery pack to be very over designed and built.
But we have also heard that part of the reason the initial cost of the Volt is so high is that GM has built in the price of a replacement battery pack into the sticker price. That way, if there is a problem, you get a new pack, since it was already paid for. For a brand new technology, that makes sense. If the packs work well, they can drop that cost off the price on future models.
Most of how I will handle that will depend upon the written warranty provided with the car. If they have a 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty with no pro rating on the battery pack, that is fine with me. If not, I may look into some extended warranty/insurance policy on the battery pack, just in case. I do not want to be in the position of having a ten year old car, and having to put in an $8K battery pack.
One thing I will NOT do is lease a battery pack separate from the car itself. At the end of that lease, you will be forced into whatever terms they want to give you, or else you have a car that can’t go out of the driveway….. No thank you.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 2:15 pm
#11 Capt Jack
“I have a feeling that when they release the actual price it will shock everyone and they will flock to the dealers for the Volt.
That is of course just MHO.”
I too, believe this is a distinct possibility. People don’t realize that much of the auto industry is about finding ways to make components for a low cost. As Bob Lutz mentioned in one of his video interviews, the manufacture of lead acid batteries is so automated that there are only 4 minutes of direct labor in each one (at this level of labor, it doesn’t even pay to make it in China, because freight charges offset any labor savings).
I suspect that as well as test batteries, GM has engaged a team of its engineers to work with LG Chem to find ways to automate Li-Ion battery production and reduce cost. These cells will then be packaged by GM into battery packs at a GM plant.
For now, GM is happy to let everyone believe the MSRP for the Volt is $40k. Then the MBA’s of the web can do their analyses and tell us it doesn’t make economic sense. The competition sits back and doesn’t worry.
Then GM does the unthinkable. They introduce the Volt early, provide a comprehensive battery warranty, and list the MSRP at a very competitive price. The other OEM’s are caught with their pants down, and GM sells a large number of Volts, and soon after also introduce more and larger Voltec vehicles.
I see this as GM’s overall strategy.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 2:36 pm
BillR # 35:
From your typing fingers to Fritz’s eyes!!!!
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April 22nd, 2009 at 2:41 pm
33 noel park Says:
April 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm .#2 k-dawg:
I bet if the plant in Michigan gets “behind schedule”, they will figure out a way to build the first few thousand in Korea. Whaddaya think?
==========
True, that is the plan. But I’d rather have LG comment on their business vs. GM’s business. Tell me where they are at on the Michigan plant. Tell me if they have made any new breakthroughs to reduce the cost of the cells. Tell me how many cells they can source per year in case demand for EREV’s skyrockets.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 2:58 pm
#35: BillR Says :
> I suspect that as well as test batteries, GM has engaged a team of its engineers to work with LG Chem to find ways to automate Li-Ion battery production and reduce cost. These cells will then be packaged by GM into battery packs at a GM plant.
Impossible, since LG’s production process is so efficient, its factory was benchmarked by Toyota. LG’s like a master of R&D and production management relative to clueless GM sinking like a ship.
Heck, GM would still be reporting billions in profits if it was run like LG.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 3:04 pm
WSJ
GM’s CFO said the company doesn’t plan to make a $1 billion debt payment due June 1 and is relying on either a debt-for-equity exchange or court protection
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April 22nd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Does anybody have any good links on large format lithium battery price predictions? The few I’ve read don’t list much for reference or comparisons with developed technology (like lead acid)..
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April 22nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Side note and off topic,
Ford has made some decent efficiency improvements on their new pickups. My F150 (3v 4.6l w/ 6 speed) looks like it’s going to average 18 to19 in the city and 20 to 23 on the highway. Average to mildly conservative driving (74 mph = 19 to 20 mpg, 60 to 65 mph = 23 mpg.
Of course, jump on the 290 hp and watch the mpg drop, no surprise there.
Looking forward to the turbocharged 6 cylinders in a couple of years for a projected 15 to 20% improvement. (or perhaps a better 2nd effort hybrid pickup offering from GM?)
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Hmmm …. I wonder if this new “lithium ion ferrous phosphate” battery technology by BYD is all they are saying it is.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/index.htm?section=money_topstories
Warren Buffett clearly saw some impressive things from their CEO Wang Chuan-Fu and his company …. which has grown like crazy since its founding in 1995. One thing is for sure … GM, Ford, and Chrysler better not UNDERESTIMATE the Chinese for one minute. Chinese cars ARE probably coming soon to America. They could be VERY formidable competitors a lot sooner than they think. I bet by 2012 or so, they could be cranking out good quality cars like Hyundai does. I remember when people in America thought that Korean cars weren’t too good. The same thing will probably happen with Chinese cars.
Fritz Henderson needs to get GM ready for a barrage of even more intense competition. GM needs to get super focused on their goals. Win those design, quality and reliability awards from JD Power, Consumer Reports, the car magazines, etc. Pick some key segments of the auto industry and get 100% committed to making the best cars for the money in that segment. The cars don’t need to be “good enough” in ALL the car segments right now, just the best in the segments they DO focus on.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
#42 GM Volt Fan Says:
> I wonder if this new “lithium ion ferrous phosphate” battery technology by BYD is all they are saying it is.
This is just a A123 LiFePO4 knock-off battery that BYD built by hiring away people from A123’s Chinese battery plant. This is a well-known item here. Nothing revolutionary here.
> I remember when people in America thought that Korean cars weren’t too good. The same thing will probably happen with Chinese cars.
Korean auto industry and Chinese industry are very different. In fact, Korean auto industry was developed and structured exactly like Japanese auto industry back in the 80s. Chinese auto industry of 2009 is like the US auto industry of 1920s, with hundreds of automakers competing. The problem is, foreigners already control 75% of Chinese domestic auto market, with Chinese brands trying to hold onto their 25% share.
Chinese auto industry of 2009 looks nothing like Japanese auto industry of 1960s and Korean auto industry of 1980s. This is why it is highly unlikely that you will see Chinese brand cars flooding our street; the entry barrier has been raised too high for Chinese to enter US market now.
This is why BYD’s betting it all on electric cars, because this market is considered the wild wild west, free for all to take.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
And then Prabakhar Patil said, “Now give us back our blue cart already!!!”
I don’t know how you can reasonably expect a low-ball price and wide availability. So far every “surprise” has been a let down… appearance, engine choice, price, availability, volume, conditions under which 40 miles is possible, etc.
My favourite was the initial 1.0L engine size, then we were told that they choose a larger engine because it was better, then we heard that they hope to have a smaller engine on future versions. Why? Because it is better. Of course the 50 MPG (whatever that really meant) has remained “statik”.
Anyone who doesn’t realize that there is more disappointment ahead (never mind positive surprises!) hasn’t been paying attention.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I would be more interested in what LG CHem can share about the price/specs of the Gen 2 battery.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Hey, I have to ask agian, If for all intents and purposes the Volt IS an EV, will it need to get smog checked?
Anybody??
Bueller?
Bueller?
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:45 pm
#46 CaptJack,
Almost positive EREV’s will have emission requirements, so that should mean “smog checks” applicable to your state (state inspections differ, some states still require no “smog check” at all).
P.S. Those AC propulsion “white papers” on their VW erev conversion spent a little time talking about the start/stop sequences of the genset and difficulties with emission requirements while doing multiple cold engine starts. This is most likely a trouble spot that GM will have to deal with on the volt.
Of course, just tell the inspection station you’re the “sausage king of chicago” and they’ll wave you on through.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
#36 Jim I:
I love it! I sense an acronym coming on. “FYTFTFE!!”, LOL.
#37 k-dawg:
I hear you. Knowledge is clearly power. I’m just saying that I doubt if LG is going to allow it to even appear that any delay in the Volt is their doing. The stakes would seem way too high for future business.
BTW, isn’t it interesting that the CEO of LG’s US operation is named Prabakhar Patil? The world would seem to be truly flattening.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
#47 carcus1:
No doubt. In CA anything with an ICE is going to get smog checked. Well car that is. Heavy duty trucks and motorcycles get to skate at the moment, although that may change soon.
In CA new cars don’t have to be checked for the first 5 years, if that makes anyone feel any better. There is a bill in the legislature which would allow selected ones to go 6 years. The Volt would seem to be a pretty likey candidate, what?
I don’t know if it’s the same bill, but there is also a movement to force cars over 15 years old to be checked every year, boo hoo.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
#38 Hyper
“Heck, GM would still be reporting billions in profits if it was run like LG.”
Sure. Glad to hear you are the expert.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
#49 Noel Park,
“I don’t know if it’s the same bill, but there is also a movement to force cars over 15 years old to be checked every year, boo hoo.”
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That won’t make the antique hot rodders or low budget drivers any happier with the “PRC” than they already are.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:13 pm
#26 David K (CT) Says, “…yes, the battery life would be cut in half.”
On days when I know that I will be driving more than 40 miles (and using the ICE anyway), I would like a manual override to start the ICE in the driveway and use it all day (or until I release the manual override). I understand it would defeat the efficiency advantage of the EV, but I would not use it on days when I travel less than 40 miles, and the trade-off would be increased battery life.
It would also give me the flexibility to use the battery at the *end* of my trip, instead of at the beginning. So, after a long drive, I could glide quietly into town, making a dramatic entrance with my new EV, impressing my friends, family, date, etc.
Or I could plan for a Sunday drive in the mountains. I could run the ICE down in town where it is warm (so the air conditioner wouldn’t deplete the battery) and noisy (so I don’t mind the sound of the ICE). Then, when I reached the cool, twisty mountain roads, I could shut off the ICE and glide through the trees with the windows open, hearing nothing but the wind and feeling free like a bird.
I suppose another option would be an “ICE recharge mode,” where the ICE not only provides propulsion, but also recharges the battery (as driving demand allows).
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Q. How much would a 16kwh (volt sized) battery (not a battery pack, no temperature management, charge management, or enclosure) cost in today’s market from available manufacturers?
A. $10,000 + shipping and handling.
LFP90 3.2V 90Ah 145 x 220 x 68 3kg $180
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_batteries_thunder_sky.php
http://www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/200931791117.pdf
And battery life?
According to electric motorsport:
“The capacity and discharge characteristics have met our expectations. The manufactures claim of a battery life of 2000 cycles is only realistic with a proper Battery Management System (BMS)”
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
#51 carcus1
That’s me on both counts. LOL.
#52 Bob G:
Or not wake up whoever we don’t want to wake up when we’re trying to sneak in late, hehehe. “Stealth Mode”
When i was in college my girfriend lived on a hill. When we got to her house too late, I would shut the car off about 2 blocks up the hill, coast down to her house, drop her off, coast down a couple of more blocks, bump start the old engine, and go on my way. It semed to work? With this advanced technology, you could do it on the flat. Science marches on.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:44 pm
#44 GXT
I don’t know how you can reasonably expect a low-ball price and wide availability. So far every “surprise” has been a let down… appearance, engine choice, price, availability, volume, conditions under which 40 miles is possible, etc.
Anyone who doesn’t realize that there is more disappointment ahead (never mind positive surprises!) hasn’t been paying attention.
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Let’s see, I prefer the production version to the concept, the 1.4L engine is more efficient than the 1.0L, no official price has been released, and GM states they can produce “tens of thousands” after the first year.
I don’t see any letdowns. Greg Ceisel in a CNN report on the Volt mule test drive states (paraphrased) “We are learning that we can meet the performance targets that we have been talking about”.
So 40 miles AER in the US06 driving cycle, at least 50 mpg in charge sustaining mode, up to 100 mph, and 0 to 60 in less than 8.5 seconds.
So what are the “disappointments ahead”?
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April 22nd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Never mind. Had a joke in there somewhere but I can’t get it down before click to edit runs out.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
@carcus1 53
http://shop.junglemotors.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=1
Lithium Iron Phosphate 90Ah 3.2Vdc battery: $139.95
As for battery life, Yes the BMS is important. It is designed to monitor individual cell voltages, cut off the load when in dnager of exceeding the DOD, protects against over charge and balances each cell in the pack. If you tune the BMS to about .25VDC of the cells mfgr’s thresholds, you extend the 2000 cycle life to more than 2500. Although regretfully many DIY’rs creep closer to the thresholds than they should.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
@carcus1 47
Well, in that case, GM should make the genset an option and a modular addition…..lol
Buy it as a pure EV, DMV will honor it and bless it as it needs no Smog check then go back and buy the Genset.
Problem solved……..lol.
I can dream.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 6:45 pm
#57 CaptJack,
Looks like the same battery (at least it appears to be the same stock photo (Thundersky?)), but more than 20% cheaper, So under $8,000 for the 16kwh battery.
Good news! The prices are falling as we speak.
On the volt and BMS. Wonder if the genset is a help or a hindrance vs. a pure EV in this area (i.e. making sure the batteries never go out of parameters)? Also wonder how many battery packs the volt testing squads have smoked up to this point.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 pm
#60 CaptJack,
Yeah, or find a hole in the wall inspection station and bring a “courtesy 12 pack”. Might be less hassle. You’re used to dealing with pirates, so dealing with these guys should be no prob.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
@carcus1 59
“Wonder if the genset is a help or a hindrance vs. a pure EV in this area (i.e. making sure the batteries never go out of parameters)? ”
The genset will only apppear as another battery in parallel with the main battery providing 400VDC @ 132.5A max. It will just assist in the energy source or in the case of the batt being depleted, be the primary drive source. It will also maintain the traction batt if it gets too low but it theoretically will not charge to full. Personally I think that’s a design missed opportunity but hey, I don’t work for GM. The Genset won’t harm or hinder but if you sonsider the batt having to use energy to move the Genset along all the time then I would say it would hunder the performance.
“Also wonder how many battery packs the volt testing squads have smoked up to this point.”
Funny, I wondered that too. I bet that plastic blast case smells like sh|t when cooked. I’v smelled burned up smiconductors and blown caps before and they stunk up the whole plant. Not to mention the caps sounded like M80’s.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 7:06 pm
OK, my typing sucks aS$……lol
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April 22nd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
RB #18 et. al. “In a way the battery is a consumable so it is sensible to pay for it as one goes along.”
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That’s a great idea. Lets turn this into a comprehensive plan for sometime in the near future. Lets say GM continues to subsidize the lower volume production. Lg Chem and Compact Power kick in a little and call it a marketing / market expansion expense. Project Better Place kicks in a little for the leases and builds up it’s battery swap stations. And even the utilities kick in a little in the expectation of getting first dibs on used battery packs for their renewables infrastructures.
This could start to be pretty reasonably priced because you are taking the initial costs of the battery out of the drive off price, and subsidizing the lease at lower volumes by all the major players plus adding in the Govt. tax credits.
Then put an all electric, no gen set & more batteries, CaptJack version as a less expensive Cruze drivetrain option and you could be looking at a car thats nearly the same price as an ICE in a couple generations/ versions from now!
By the way Proj. Better Place’ model seems to make sense because they have a by the mile plan instead of here’s your battery good luck. They even plan to allow battery swaps for long drives that replace filling up the tank w/ gas, or E85, or bio deisel, or nat gas, or H******n.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 9:32 pm
#5 solo2500nt Says: I don’t think L.G. will ever disclose costs because they do not sell these batteries directly to consumers.
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They’ve already disclosed the cost of the battery pack.
The CEO of Compact Power, Inc., the subsidiary of LG Chem that currently builds the Volt battery packs, says the battery pack costs $1000/ available kWh:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
He also made it very clear that this is for available kWh, and not the total kWh capacity of the battery. The Volt has 8 available kWh, so the Volt’s battery pack costs $8000.
He also expects battery pack prices to be 1/4 to 1/2 of that in the next 5-10 years. This corresponds to $2000 to $4000 for a 2nd or 3rd generation Volt battery pack.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 9:47 pm
#8 Evil Conservative Says: I too wonder what the battery will cost but more important what will the charge on the battery be in 5, 10 or 15 years? If LG and GM can keep the battery working at 80% in 10 years that would be great ….. 20% not so much.
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The CEO of Compact Power, Inc., the subsidiary of LG Chem that currently builds the Volt battery packs, says the battery pack the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
GM warrants the battery pack for 10 years or 150,000 miles, so normal end-of-life will be sometime after that.
GM has also said the Volt will automatically adjust the battery’s charged and depleted points as the battery ages so as to provide the full 8 kWh of available energy throughout the life of the battery. So under normal driving, the Volt should get 40 miles of all-electric range when it’s new, and at end-of-life.
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April 22nd, 2009 at 10:35 pm
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% ….. 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………. 30% ….. 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ……………….. 8 …….. 8 …………. 8 …………. 8
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April 23rd, 2009 at 6:34 am
#’s 64, 65, 66 Dave G………..
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Your observations in #64, 65 & your chart in #66 are excellent, Dave! The chart in #66, though not necessarily exact, answers countless questions asked at this forum by providing a realistic example. And as GM accumulates massive battery performance data through OnStar over the years, the 1) Charger shut off and 2) ICE turn on set points can be adjusted optimally and downlinked via OnStar to individual automobiles as their batteries age. Thanks for your insight!
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April 23rd, 2009 at 7:39 am
100 of those cells would make a very nice 100 mile range BEV.. glad to see the prices dropping so quickly.. the question is what happens when you try to order 100 of them?
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#57 CaptJackSparrow Says:
April 22nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
@carcus1 53
http://shop.junglemotors.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=1
Lithium Iron Phosphate 90Ah 3.2Vdc battery: $139.95
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April 23rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
If anybody’s still reading . . . . .
Lithium-ion Batteries: 9 Years of Price Stagnation
http://seekingalpha.com/article/129570-lithium-ion-batteries-9-years-of-price-stagnation
/ I’m not saying I agree with the article. I just found it and the comments interesting, worth the read, and relevant to this thread.
2 big potential errors ( I got tired of trying to verify) in this report that commentors pointed out:
1. 80% of total battery cost is materials (developing vs mature technology)
2. absence of Lifepo4 batteries in original referenced report.
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April 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
Just as a side note, LG Chem stock is up $26 today (Thurs), now trading over $90. Maybe LG Chem should buy GM.
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April 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
#70 Frank B:
Wow! What’s that about? Does anybody know?
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April 23rd, 2009 at 9:55 pm
#69 carcus1 Says: Lithium-ion Batteries: 9 Years of Price Stagnation
http://seekingalpha.com/article/129570-lithium-ion-batteries-9-years-of-price-stagnation
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The premise of this article is that Li/Ion car battery costs should come down over time. I believe this is a false premise.
Costs go down when sales volumes increase. There are still no mass production cars with Lithium-ion Batteries.
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April 24th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Its quite surprising that GM is not confident about the launch of the Volt but there you go, LG is!
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