Apr 22

Breaking: EEStor Announces a ‘Huge Milestone’: Relative Permittivity Certified

 

As a sidebar to the Volt we follow the story of EEStor. This is the Texas-based stealth-mode company that has been working on developing a specialized energy storage unit (EESU) that is somewhat of a cross between a battery and an ultracapacitor. The device uses a specialized chemical powder called barium titanate which is alumina-coated (CMBT) and is theorized to be not only is capable of very high power density, but very high energy density.

The company has an agreement with Zenn Motor Company of Canada to supply these energy storage units for use in electric cars.

What makes these devices so groundbreaking is that if realized, they could potentially hold several times the energy of lithium-ion batteries at a fraction of the cost and weight, and experience no degradation thereby giving them an infinite lifetime. They would also be extremely rapidly rechargeable. The public has been waiting for a demonstration of these devices for years but to date it has not occurred.

Today a very special, long-awaited and per EEStor “huge” milestone was achieved. They report their CMBT powder has been certified as having met or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500. This value has to do with the ability of energy storage material to store charge. A large permittivity means the material has a large capacitance, or ability to store charge.

Of course at this point no working prototype has yet been demonstrated, but Zenn continues to report it expects working prototypes.

Michael Bergeron, VP of Engineering of ZENN said “The permittivity results as indicated are beyond the specifications outlined in our technology agreement which is extremely encouraging, we will review these results and expect to announce our findings as soon as they are available.”

“EEStor’s announcement reveals continued progress in developing their Electrical Energy Storage Unit,” said Ian Clifford, CEO of ZENN. “We remain focused on fulfilling our cityZENN and ZENNergyTM drivetrain programs, the first implementations of EEStor’s EESU.

Full EEStor Press Release:

CEDAR PARK, Texas, April 22 /PRNewswire/ — EEStor, Inc. announces relative permittivity certification of their Composition Modified Barium-Titanate powders. The third party certification tests were performed by Texas Research International’s Dr. Edward G. Golla, PhD., Laboratory Director. He has certificated that EEStor’s patented and patent pending Composition Modified Barium-Titanate Powders have met and/or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500.

EEStor feels this is a huge milestone which opens the advancement of key products and services in the electrical energy storage markets of today. The automotive and renewable energy sectors are a few of the key markets that would benefit greatly with the technology.

This entry was posted on Wednesday, April 22nd, 2009 at 3:46 pm and is filed under EEStor. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 141


  1. 1
    Campy

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (3:48 pm)

    1st

    I want to get excited about this as much as the next guy but until they can actually show us something — anything — I just don’t care anymore. I used to go all bonkers about them but I’m just not buying it anymore.


  2. 2
    ArkansasVolt

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (3:49 pm)

    2nd!


  3. 3
    dennis

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (3:51 pm)

    “having met or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500”

    So how long/how much energy does it store?


  4. 4
    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (3:55 pm)

    Same side question on this one: What’s their stock market ticker code? I want to buy some.


  5. 5
    FME III

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:16 pm)

    I’ll leave the discussion of this to the electrical engineers who post on ths blog.

    As a layman, I remain skeptical, yet wishful that it comes to pass.

    Although I do wonder if it would render the Volt obsolete. ‘Twould be good for us, and unfortunate for GM and the billions it has poured into the car.


  6. 6
    Seth

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:19 pm)

    Why does gm-volt.com continue to give this company credibility by reporting on it. This press release means nothing.


  7. 7
    Cole

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:21 pm)

    I think even if it is true, it would probably be quite some time before they could manufacture them in the quantitiy needed. Don’t forget, a power source like that is going to be in incredibly high demand by everybody. GM might be able to sell quite a few volts before the technology gets to the point of affordibility.


  8. 8
    Edwin Mang

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:24 pm)

    I take it that GM is keeping options open as EESTOR has been late on most of the target dates that it has set . But lighter and more power is good . It means a GEN 4 Volt is in the works .


  9. 9
    Anthony BC

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:26 pm)

    YES! #9 GM this would be a great addition to the PUMA!~

    GO EESTOR!

    GO EV!


  10. 10
    la_lang

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:27 pm)

    EEStor = Cold fusion
    I don’t want to hear their claim anymore, show me the product.


  11. 11
    solo2500nt

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:32 pm)

    This whole thing about EEstor has “Tilley Foundation” written all over it.

    Tilley claimed to have a magic regenerative device that could allow a car (He used a DeLorean as a test bed) to run almost forever on a 6 pack or so of 12 volt batteries. It was a big scam. I think Mr. Tilley is in jail or at least has an active warrant.

    “Sho me the EEstor” so it can be TESTED by a REAL LAB. Until then I’ll tape batteries to a toaster and tell the world I’ve solved the worlds energy problems.


  12. 12
    CDAVIS

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:34 pm)

    ______________________________________________________
    Ohhhhhhhhhhh….Nooooooooo….
    The Fantastic Cheese is back but now more Fantastically Cheesy since it has been “certified as having met or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500”!!!
    ______________________________________________________


  13. 13
    noel park

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:37 pm)

    “It’ll count if it goes!!”

    Chick Hearn

    If it works, it’s a wonderful thing. If not, oh well.

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! (even if it’s plugged into EESTOR, LOL)


  14. 14
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:41 pm)

    Aw man….
    Waiting for their product in any shape or form is like the play “Waiting for Godot”…..
    It’s coming….
    It’s coming….
    It’s coming….It’s coming….
    It’s coming….It’s coming….It’s coming….


  15. 15
    Jim I

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:49 pm)

    On this one, I am from Missouri….

    Show me!

    🙂


  16. 16
    Jason M. Hendler

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (4:51 pm)

    As others have pointed out, permitivity is but one parameter this material must possess to achieve the device parameters they’ve boasted.

    Until they produce a device and detail the device performance, they have nothing.

    I suspect all these breakthrough with Li Ion batteries must be making them nervous. If they do not commercialize their tech soon, they never will.


  17. 17
    Malamute Wolf

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:01 pm)

    if only we could have these…

    but it just keeps looking more like a sham than anything.

    oh we will have it out in 2007…
    wait no worries, early 2008…
    and here it is 2009


  18. 18
    SteveK

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:02 pm)

    Why do you call it a cross between a battery and an ultracapacitor? It seems to me to be an ultracapacitor.


  19. 19
    Mark Z

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:05 pm)

    The press release is dated April 22. Earth Day. For EEStor to announce today seems about as factual as an April Fools joke. Just another technical tidbit to make us think the company is alive and well.

    If they really had something, they would be showing up in Washington DC demonstrating a Zenn EEStor powered car with their hands out for billions.


  20. 20
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:07 pm)

    “What makes these devices so groundbreaking is that if realized, they could potentially hold several times the energy of lithium-ion batteries at a fraction of the cost and weight”

    I gurantee you that although they claim “a fraction of the cost…” IF!, That’s a big IF, it does come out, it will be way too expensive and of course the always reiterated statement will come out just like the batteries…
    “The product isn’t there yet for wide use on the automobile industry. It is just costs too much.”


  21. 21
    Batmobile Coda

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:07 pm)

    Atomic batteries to power…turbines to speed…lets go


  22. 22
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:14 pm)

    @SteveK 18

    “Why do you call it a cross between a battery and an ultracapacitor? It seems to me to be an ultracapacitor.”

    I recall one of their other press statements, or was it one of their patents but it clearly rated the discharge in “Ah”. It wasn’t even in the hundreds. Capacity wasn’t mentioned nor the voltage. UltraCaps can discharge in the thousand Ah range, batteries especially LiFePO4 can discharge in the 300Ah (3C) range for a 100Ah cell or 600Ah for a 200Ah cell at 3C.

    IMHO, it’s not even a cross. It’s a battery.


  23. 23
    old man

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:15 pm)

    IF EESTOR ever gets to market with ANYTHING close to what they say they WITH their ultracapacitor/battery it will not make the Volt absolete, it will improve it by making it lighter.

    BUT A VERY BIG IF!!!


  24. 24
    Gary

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:27 pm)

    22,500 whats?

    Amps? Watts? Farads? Photons? Tribbles?

    Seems weird not to have a unit of measure.


  25. 25
    Electric Vehicle Owner

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:35 pm)

    ACTUAL WHOLESALE COST? SUPPLIES READY IN BULK? TRACK RECORD? OFF THE SHELF? IN EXISTING PRODUCTION VEHICLES NOW?

    Just another excuse for foot dragging for those clutching at the past. ( explicit – we can’t make it now ’cause something better is coming along and will compete. Actually, this is making the perfect be the enemy of the good. If it was acted on, no product would ever have been made in history). What’s out now, ready for power pack use, is already plenty good enough for mass production. Get on with it. If this develops into something viable, just plug and play new powerpacks into vehicles down the road as a dealer upgrade and start using as an option for the next model year’s vehicles. Same goes for any other new, improved energy carrier in the future. No big whoop. duh.

    It’s that first step to electric drive that’s the critical one, not the choice of energy carrier.


  26. 26
    DonC

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:36 pm)

    What’s interesting is that EEStor has previously said that the permittivity test was simply a subset of the purity test and, as such, was unimportant. That was when the purity study was released. Not sure what has changed.

    I would love for this all to be true but when all a company can do is sign up Zenn you have to wonder. In any event this cannot be a bad thing. Let’s hope it works. If it works, and you can produce product in quantity at the claimed price, then it would be absolutely huge.


  27. 27
    kent beuchert

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:39 pm)

    IN the words of some, this is the ball game. The device apparently will work as advertised. So THAT is why my ZENN Motor stock has been going wild for the past 4 days. In two days it jumped over 60%
    for a while.
    There is only one more milestone they have to meet – the ability to produce said device on their production line, which they have been building for the past year. There has reportedly beeen zero development effort required during that time. Let’s all hope that this is the big Kahuna. The Volt should be first in line, since they
    have a vehicle all ready to go and ZENN Motors is looking to make their fortune as a supplier, not competitor to the automakers. This would apparently have the ability to immediately transform the Volt into a low cost EV (toss the range extender, etc. also the expensive and heavy battery pack, etc). This is what everyone’s been hoping for, at least for the past 100 years. Keep your fingers crossed.


  28. 28
    Eliezer

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:39 pm)

    #13 Noel Park

    “It’ll count if it goes!!”

    Chick Hearn
    —————————————————————————-

    If this EESTOR thing turns out to be a fraud, then “the mustards off the hot dog” and a lot of people have been “faked into the popcorn machine”, but if their claims are true and their technology can be affordably mass produced, then “Its in the refrigerator, the doors are closed, the lights are out, the eggs are coolin’, the butter’s gettin’ hard and the jello’s jigglin’!”.


  29. 29
    Bob G

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:41 pm)

    #5 FME III Says, “… I’ll leave the discussion of this to the electrical engineers who post on ths blog…”

    I’m an electrical engineer, but I admit I had to look it up on Wikipedia. Permittivity is basically what we used to call “dielectric constant.” It boils down to how much capacitance you can have in a limited size. If you have two oppositely charged plates (such as in a capacitor), the dielectric is what keeps the electrons (and their stored energy) from arcing from one side to the other. 22,500 is pretty impressive, considering it is 22,500 times the dielectric of a pure vacuum.

    But I’d have to see it to believe it. At this point, even a laboratory prototype would offer some credibility.

    Then would come the job of adapting it to the harsh climate of the real world. Hint: High voltages separated by an incredible dielectric could release huge amounts of energy if somehow that dielectric was compromised with even a tiny crack which allowed an arc to start.

    PS: There are no units because it is a ratio.


  30. 30
    Malamute Wolf

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:41 pm)

    22,500 Tribbles!


  31. 31
    Jeff

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:41 pm)

    #23 old man

    IF EESTOR ever gets to market with ANYTHING close to what they say they WITH their ultracapacitor/battery it will not make the Volt absolete, it will improve it by making it lighter.
    BUT A VERY BIG IF!!!
    —————————————————–
    Hmmm…it makes electrical energy storage device (aka battery pack) of the Volts in the field obsolete. Which might lower the resale value of those Volts? I agree…VERY BIG IF

    I’ll just say…thanks early adopters. 🙂


  32. 32
    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:45 pm)

    @Gary 24

    “22,500 whats?”

    Relative Permitivity. That’s the new fancy name of what was called “Dielectric Constant”.
    Essetially, a high permittivity allows a greater charge to be stored at a given voltage. However, no voltage was given. Sure high permitivity is achieved but at .5VDC? Just speculating.
    There’s a conversion formula to convert the permitivity to farad BUT, you need the surface area size used when you measured the dielectric constant. Obviously it was left out.


  33. 33
    Zach

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:49 pm)

    Gary, #24,

    I believe it is a the ratio of the magnetic permittivity of a substance to the permittivity of a vacuum.

    Permittivity is measured in farads per meter (F/m).

    By the way, that’s some pretty advanced crap, so I hardly understand it, reading it for a minute, lol.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/relative+permittivity
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permittivity


  34. 34
    Campy

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:52 pm)

    I feel like this is the technology that Spangler put in the Protron Packs in Ghostbusters.

    DON’T CROSS THE STREAMS!


  35. 35
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (5:56 pm)

    @Zach 33

    “Permittivity is measured in farads per meter (F/m).”

    Is it safe to assume it was a meter square?


  36. 36
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:01 pm)

    I’m going to throw another “IF” out there. IF they can deliver, my guess is the product will be made into many smaller packs in a Lego style stacking to allow higher voltage rating. I say that because if it is one massive pack of that much energy and something shorts out, you’ll be driving in a small Chernobyl incident. You’ll be a “ManBQ”.


  37. 37
    gsned57

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:04 pm)

    #4 Corvetteguy “Same side question on this one: What’s their stock market ticker code? I want to buy some.”

    I think Martha Stewart beat you to it. Currently there are only 2 known aggreements with EEstor and they are with Lockheed Martin (too big a market cap to move on small news such as this) and Zenn Motors (who’s future depends on stuff like this). Zenn’s stock traded suspiciously higher on April 17th. The ticker is Public, CVE:ZNN and the stock doubled in the last week. Obviously someone got this report before it was published and doubled their money. But I guess that’s up to the FTC to figure out.

    As for the news article. This is a number that is important to EESTOR based on THEIR claims of patent pending science. I’m an engineer but just don’t feel like wasting my time to figure out the math. I’ll admit I’m not that good of an engineer anyways (CRACK another beer). I won’t get excited until I have independent verification of a working prototype then I’m buying that Zenn stock!


  38. 38
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:09 pm)

    @gsned57 37
    “(CRACK another beer). ”

    Aw yeah, my kind of Engineer. You probably know the principle of….
    If the beers cold,,,,,,,,then who gives a sh|t.


  39. 39
    GeorgeB

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:13 pm)

    We’ll probably see all sorts of announcements out of EEstor now that the Patent Office has given them 6 months to produce something or get their patent cancelled. I would love to hear that they have produced something….anything.

    If you think about it, they must have something fabricated or they wouldn’t have been able to measure permittivity. I doubt they just stuck two electrodes into a pile of powder.


  40. 40
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:17 pm)

    @GeorgeB 39

    Yeah but are the patent folks going to be able to dtermine if what they are doing is legit? There are many patents in there that claim overunity and yes they approved it. Not saying their idiots or anything but I think any Schmo can get a patent.

    Even with all my doubts, I hope they prove me wrong.


  41. 41
    PHEVadvocate

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:27 pm)

    Why didn’t they indicate the voltage the permittivity measurements were taken at. It is a important piece of information!

    Read post #4 at the following website:

    http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html

    Can anybody dispute this post?


  42. 42
    SteveK

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:34 pm)

    #22 CaptJackSparrow

    Not hugely important but, a capacitor stores and releases energy using a charge differential between two plates and only requires the flow of electrons. A battery stores energy by a chemical change and a migration of charged species. That is why batteries are inherently slower to charge/discharge and why people are intrigued by capacitors (if they could be made to store enough energy).

    I read Eestors patent a few years ago—I happened on it by accident. It was pretty exciting as the claims, if true, would clearly be a revolution.


  43. 43
    coffeetime

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:38 pm)

    Could EEStor be a hoax? Possibly. However, I’d like to think that a company as big as Lockheed Martin would be reluctant to enter into an agreement with them (http://pressmediawire.com/article.cfm?articleID=4628) without due diligence.


  44. 44
    SteveK

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:45 pm)

    I doubt very much that it is a ‘hoax’. These guys were managers from IBM’s disk drive division (I think, may have the company wrong). What is likely is that they have a concept, and some data that indicates they have something. Whether they can reliably build a full-scale device is the question. I know that some people in the ultracap business think it can’t be done, but it sure would be great if they were wrong.


  45. 45
    PHEVadvocate

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (6:47 pm)

    Lockheed was just green washing.

    http://www.cleanbreak.ca/2008/12/29/lockheed-names-eestor-in-body-armor-patent/

    “The contest winners were announced Oct. 4 and Lockheed didn’t make it to the Top 3. The winners used lithium-ion batteries, fuel cells or some combination of the two. I’m not sure where Lockheed did end up ranking, but the fact it didn’t rank high could raise a few eyebrows about its relationship with EEStor and confidence in the EESU technology.”

    What didn’t the DoD like, the lightest weight, the highest energy density, the fastest charging time, the infinite life, and no hazardous chemicals (acids, fuels, or flammable materials like lithium that burn really hot)? It must have been a problem with the technology or a whiff of vaporware?

    Sorry to be so negative, but maybe Lockheed decided the money they spent was worth the publicity and a bit of green washing?

    PS. Here is my favorite video that shows how hot Lithium can burn:

    http://www.valence.com/technology/battery_safety/battery_safety_video

    I would really want body armor with lithium in it.


  46. 46
    gsned57

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:13 pm)

    # 38 Capt Jack, Honestly I don’t even care how cold it is. Generally they’re as cold as my basement (getting warmer by the day).

    #39 Capt Jack, The patent office doesn’t care if it works or not. I’ve got a buddy who works in the “Obscure Electrical” dept. down at the patent office and the things he tells me get bye are F’ing ridiculous. Mostly garbage from China and Japan that aren’t even written in coherent sentences. Usually depends on how that patent clerk is feeling that day. Doesn’t take much but a pile of cash to get a patent.

    #43 Coffeetime, Lockheed had nothing to loose by entering into an agreement. Unlimited upside potential with minimal financial investment. If EEstor came to me and said I could be their distributor for all defense related uses and it would cost less than the electric bill in a month I’d jump on it too. They probably didn’t have more than a few Engineers check out the operations and say that mathematically it’s “feasible” (Crack, there goes another beer)


  47. 47
    GeorgeB

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:15 pm)

    # 40 CaptJackSparrow

    I don’t know much about how the Patent Office usually does business, but I don’t think they routinely send out the kind of notice that they sent EESTOR. In the notice they bacically told EESTOR to demonstrate commercial viability or get their patent cancelled.

    That tells me they are being a little more vigilant with EESTOR and place some measure of importance on the patent. EESTOR isn’t the only outfit developing ultracaps and apparently they won’t be allowed to squat on the patent.

    If I was Ian Clifford of Zenn, I think I’d be be calling the patent office every day to get them to put a fire under EESTOR. I believe Mr. Wier of EESTOR said a while back that he had gone through all his money and sounded like he was fishing for more.


  48. 48
    Dan Petit

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:39 pm)

    Here in Austin, TX, Cedar Park is just next door. I drive past EESTOR several times a week and forget to even look that way to see what the storefront looks like.
    One of the great things about one of the ways that Texans think about small firms like EESTOR is to have an infinite patience with letting creative people do whatever they like as long as it doesn’t interfere with anyone else.
    This is why, here in Austin, there is a saying that goes:
    “Keep Austin Weird”. (Everyone’s our brother and sister.)
    If EESTOR keeps achieving these engineering benchmarks as certified by outside independent professionals, there are several
    *************************************
    commercially-shattering
    *************************************
    environmental revolutions which will vastly cut carbon dioxide.
    Wind energy could be stored remotely “on-site” at the Wind generating turbines so also to allow for wind shift and speed “lulls” that would need to be compensated-for every day. The excess overnight Wind energy (in West Texas), could be accumulated and be “stored” so that when our Voltec vehicles are calling for a Green-Wind-Energy recharge, that there would be a very smooth supply of that source of green energy.
    While I do not think that ultracaps would be seen in Voltec vehicles for at least 7 years (due to rigid safety testing protocols by the various safety testing folks outside and inside GM), I really like the idea that there would be an additional way to let me buy my electricity for my Voltec vehicle as “all green energy”.
    Being able to buy “green energy” is already in place here.
    Here in Austin, you can specify “all green energy” for your electricity supply for your residence, which turns out to be an extra
    *************************************************
    four and a half cents more per kilowatt
    *************************************************
    of energy on top of the regular cost of the “fuel” part of the bill.
    In the hottest Summer month of last year, July, I managed to cut my electricity usage to just 384 kilowatts for my 1500 square foot house,
    and, have my HVAC on an “off” timer so that when I get home, I just set the HVAC to run continuously for 2 hours, then it shuts off with me feeling very very cool for the rest of the night.

    All your electricity coming into your residence would be 100 percent green energy which is from Solar, hydro, wind, biomass (landfill methane, a really nasty greenhouse gas by nine-fold worse than carbon dioxide), to be combusted in an turbine driven generator, into the far-less-nasty carbon dioxide instead.
    The idea here in Austin is to let you specify to the power company (those smart managers at our publicly-owned electric utility; Austin Energy), that you don’t want to buy coal power, for example, to recharge your Volt (or power your residence).
    (Privately-owned utilities, pay attention to the green-potential here, if you have lots of folks that do not want to buy coal-fired electricity anymore!! But keep the costs passed-through at rock bottom COST.)
    If the EESTORE ultracap does make it into production to store excess Wind energy, then the extra “four and a half cents” per needed “green” recharge-kilowatt for my Voltec vehicle, would come down to a cost difference less than that, because, nearly all the wind energy could be saved. (If EESTOR finishes up their research for their goal of incredible working power storage.)
    But no matter if or when it comes out, I would definitely require the battery technology that is already in the works at GM, which is being relentlessly tested for safety, longevity, and reliability in order for GM to properly back the warranty on the battery.
    Dan Petit Austin TX


  49. 49
    MarkinWI

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:44 pm)

    Bernie Madoff. Nuff said.


  50. 50
    BlackSun

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:56 pm)

    Inveterate skeptics are as bad as true believers. Admit it, no commenter on this site has a freaking clue what’s going on with this product.

    But you do all have common sense. It’s not like cold fusion, or something equally pie-in-the-sky. Capacitance is a well known property, and EESTOR aren’t the only ones working on ultracaps.

    Permittivity is a real measurement, not something made up, and they provided a real number. My only question with this report, is what lab did they use and are they willing to release an independent report? If so and they used a reputable lab, then it means something, otherwise, not so much. Even if it was an internal test, it still could be true, we just don’t have corroboration yet.

    All this speculation about whether they’re crooks or out of money or not is meaningless. Rumors feeding on rumors. Sometimes development takes a long time. If they don’t develop a workable ultracap, someone else will. We’re not talking fairy dust, it’s a device to hold an electric field–something well understood.

    Please stick to the facts.


  51. 51
    Redeye

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:56 pm)

    51st !


  52. 52
    statik

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:57 pm)

    #62 statik (last thread) says “Attempt #2 for Epcot today…”
    ———-

    RB says: Be sure to go to the Japanese pavilion at one of the times when the drummers come out and do their show. Be sure to go to the ride through the exhibit that grows plants in air. (It is close to Soarin, which I’m sure you’ll go to.)

    Our favorite place for lunch is the English place. Get “Bangers..”
    ——————
    Rashiid Amul said:
    April 20th, 2009 at 7:30 am
    —“Statik, make sure to do the GM exhibit while in Epcot. I did it back in September and thought it was fun.”
    ——————
    BillR Says:
    April 20th, 2009 at 7:33 am
    —“Statik,While at Epcot, don’t forget to take the GM test drive, and check out the display room at the end of the ride to see what news you can find out about the Volt.”
    ===========================
    ===========================
    Did get to Epcot today and I can report there is still nothing on the Volt at the end of test track (but still a yellow Saab convertible). I did however see the drummers at the Japanese pavilion.

    Sorry RB, I did not get the ‘bangers’ at the English pavilion…is it wrong I eat at the steakhouse at the Canadian pavilion? Seems like I should be eating anywhere other than there. In related news a $35 steak there tastes the same as a $15 ones at TGIFs.

    In GM car related news from Epcot…I saw a CTS Sport Wagon leaving with us at night. Is that thing even for sale yet? I can’t find it on the Cadillac website at all. Actually looks pretty good…wife said she wouldn’t mind driving one.


  53. 53
    kent beuchert

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (7:58 pm)

    I’m continually amazed at the ability of some folks to hold strong opinions of subjects about which they know little to nothing.
    I certainly, along with anyone with half a brain, hope this technology works as advertised. If I were certain I’d be buying up every share of ZENN Motor stock I could get my hand on. I am buying some more as a speculative endeavor, as before. Regardless of your belief/nonbelief as to whether this will work, it clearly is potentially a much bigger story than 10 Chevy Volts, which I might add, immediately become obsolete and require redesign in the event of EEStor success. . Makes me wonder why folks like Seth wonder why we are covering the story. Let’s see, now… We’ve covered stories about which side of the Volt the recharge port will be located, etc, etc. And Seth still wonders why we cover EEStor.


  54. 54
    ccombs

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:09 pm)

    I frankly have no idea what EEStor is up to. I am a semi-cynical engineer so I am convinced all of this has to have a major catch even if it works as advertised. Usually the catch is “costs an obscene amount”.* I would love it if I am wrong, however.

    *For example… I just came up with a design for a rust-proof car. It is made of platinum. Aren’t I a genius?


  55. 55
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:10 pm)

    In essence it is 22.5 KWH about the same as the volt battery .
    Does that help .


  56. 56
    statik

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:18 pm)

    Oh yeah, the topic of the thread….EESTOR. Still full of crap-o-la if you ask me, lol.

    /can’t wait for those EESTOR powered Zenn’s this fall…how are they coming again? To be fair, I think the early models are not actually going to be fueled with electricity, but rather by burning patents pending on EESTOR tech.

    But…oh yeah, we did hit the milestone of “Composition Modified Barium-Titanate Powders have met and/or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500” which probably guarantees I willl be driving my hometown Ontario built Zenns real soon.
    —–
    …reminds me of MST3K:

    “Place your hands above the rails. They’re magnetized.”
    Mike: “And if your hands were metal that would mean something.”
    http://satelliteoflove.tripod.com/mst3k/magnetized.wav

    (I’m guessing that reference is way to obscure for a lot of people…my apologies. Go rent Mystery Science Theatre 3000)


  57. 57
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:24 pm)

    GM really is evaluating EEStor’s technology. So is Lockheed Martin.

    http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/01/gm-admits-to-a-working-relationship-with-eestor/

    EEStor needs to get out of “stealth mode” and show the world what they’ve got. Get it tested at Argonne Labs or something. Are they afraid some bigwig oil company executives are going to try to “get them” if they revolutionize the automobile industry and make gasoline obsolete? If EEStor has world changing technology and they’ve got patents on it, what do they have to worry about?


  58. 58
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:35 pm)

    The main problem with ESTOR is the same wiring that plagued the volt battery and I could give them the answer so could GM .
    But I have the mod 7 that I made in 06 still holding so lets just see shall we .
    You perhaps sleep to much to keep up .
    But you are still three years behind right now so I sleep well .


  59. 59
    kdawg

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:41 pm)

    #10 la_lang Says:
    April 22nd, 2009 at 4:27 pm .EEStor = Cold fusion
    I don’t want to hear their claim anymore, show me the product.
    ————–

    Supposidly cold fusion is seriously being looked at again by several research groups and the US Gov. But just like EEstor…. no prototypes.


  60. 60
    RB

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:44 pm)

    statik — Glad you got to hear the Japanese drummers. Sorry you missed the bangers — maybe next time.


  61. 61
    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:49 pm)

    Here’s pretty good article about getting the best of both worlds with batteries AND ultracapacitors.

    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/a-new-definition-of-energy-storage-for-the-new-energy-economy-6026.html

    EEStor isn’t the only company in the ultracapacitor game. They have competitors like Maxwell Technologies and EnerG2 in Seattle.

    http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-22-2009/0005010687&EDATE=


  62. 62
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (8:50 pm)

    My proto type ran in 05 I checked records . The problem was the flow through the battery and GM has that licked .

    I am having fun watching all the change and big ones trying to catchup or is it ketchup squashed tomatos .
    It does have a limited life about five or seven years but $1000. 00
    and it goes again .
    But it is not cold fusion just a partical excellerator like an altrenator .


  63. 63
    RB

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:01 pm)

    A standard reference for capacitors is two square plates of area A separated by distance d. [Think two big flat plates having area A separated by a small distance d.] The capacitance is given by the formula capacitance C = episilon times A divided by d.

    The permittivity (units of F/m) is sometimes given as the relative permittivity times the permittivity of free space (vaccuum). That is why relative permittivity has no units — it is just a multiplier. The value of 22500 is a huge value compared with ordinary material, which might have a relative permittivity like 2 or 3. Air is about 1.

    On the other hand, relative permittivity is simply the property of a material. It is not a device, just stuff in between the two plates of a capacitor. We know nothing of how complicated it is to put it there or keep in there in whatever configuration is required, or what sort of voltage values or range is OK.


  64. 64
    MIke Powell

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:24 pm)

    Barium Titanate has been used in capacitors in semiconductor manfacturing for over thirty years. The EEstor new “technology” is old technology.
    The trick is in manufacturing, defects in the materials and construction and packing interconnect density has always limited the “size” of the capacitors at which you get some reasonable yield. I have a hard time believing the EESTOR guys have better manfacturing capabilities that billion dollar semiconductor fabs where I have used the material.
    They may be able to create a few lab prototypes, but mass production in the million units per year seems unlikely in the near term. Time will tell.


  65. 65
    kdawg

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:27 pm)

    Off topic, but with GM shutting down for 9 weeks.. how will this affect the integration vehicle?

    http://www.freep.com/article/20090422/BUSINESS01/90422068/GM+workers+brace+for+9-week+summer+closure


  66. 66
    Jackson

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:34 pm)

    I made my “against the flow,” “what if it’s real” comment on one of the many earlier EESTOR posts. Now, I’m just weary of the whole thing.

    Don’t worry about EESTOR making the Volt obsolete; GM will “leapfrog” the whole EESU field by a multi-billion dollar research program to perfect Diolithium Crystals.

    Next topic, please.


  67. 67
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:37 pm)

    That dollars and cents insite is the problem ESTOR has in a nut shell . You have to prove you can then you get some support then you have to put the factory together by then your patten is gone . Unless you sell out to some big corp at pennies on the dollar .


  68. 68
    Jeff

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (9:41 pm)

    “They report their CMBT powder has been certified as having met or exceeded a relative permittivity of 22,500”

    I wonder…what is the relative permittivity of pixie dust? If Tinker Bell is on the payroll at EEStor, it would explain a few things. 🙂

    Seriously though…if they have the “real thing”, these guys need to share.


  69. 69
    Larry

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (10:05 pm)

    Whoa there fellas!

    What they DID NOT say was: “We still get a permittivity of 22,500 >>>when<<< charged up to 3000V”.

    The killer problem is that as you charge to higher voltages, the permittivity drops all the way down to 1. This will very likely limit the EEStor to only 1% of their Oh, so very highly implied theoretical potential. Nothing speaks louder than the lack of even 1 single prototype.


  70. 70
    kubel

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (10:22 pm)

    Seems things are moving much too slowly for their technology to be real. Just look at the timeline. They patented their technology in 2005. In the beginning of 2007 they finally proved their capability of manufacturing barium titanate powder to 99.9994% purity. In late 2007 they were supposed to have finished R&D. Instead, we finally just now learn that their pixie dust is capable of more than what they promised. But we still see no prototype, no products, no proof at all except for two certifications that say “this component is this pure” and “this component can do this”.

    Does it really take 2+ years to go from the stage of demonstrating their manufacturing capability to demonstrating the permittivity of their powders?

    Considering the amount of funding being poured into this company, I’m amazed at how small of baby steps this company is taking.


  71. 71
    Dave G

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (10:50 pm)

    Due to the extremely high purity levels required, EEStor’s product will be VERY expensive.

    Yes, the source materials for EEStor are a little cheaper, but the huge amounts of energy required for purification will dwarf the expense of the source materials.


  72. 72
    Ed M

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (10:52 pm)

    Campy #1 and all other doubters

    Difficult advancements take a lot of time and require great secrecy so the Asians can’t steal the technology. It should be obvious that if this was easy to do, everyone would be doing it.


  73. 73
    Texas

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2009 (11:00 pm)

    This should keep the hype and funding going for another year or so. Then they will have to come up with something else.

    They can blame the long recession again but the investors might just balk and close down the operation. What to do, what to do…


  74. 74
    Steve

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:29 am)

    #65 Kdawg

    I think there has been an effort around here the last few days to bury bad GM stories like the 9 week shutdown, the huge layoffs yesterday, the not paying back the $1bill bond, etc…. Maybe if we ignore the news it never happened?


  75. 75
    Shaft

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:40 am)

    Statik,

    The Spiderman ride at Universal is awesome. Amazing 3-D effects.


  76. 76
    stopcrazypp

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (3:44 am)

    http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/01/gm-admits-to-a-working-relationship-with-eestor/

    For people asking, people already worked out the capacity last time.

    It was ~188MJ if you use the 0.5CV^2 formula or 52.2kWh, roughly the capacity of the Tesla Roadster.

    The only way it would make a huge difference is if it was lower in price or if it had a longer cycle/calendar life.

    The quick discharge/charge is of some use but not that much since quick charge depends on the charging source and current batteries can charge fast enough where the charging source is the limit. An example is the 35kWh Altairnano batteries that can charge in 10 minutes, but requires a 250kW charger.

    Quick discharge (higher power density) is more useful for hybrids and I suppose useful for the Volt also since it has a smaller pack, but current batteries are adequate for most applications in that regard.


  77. 77
    sudhaman

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (4:23 am)

    mr lyle please ask GM to look into this matter and get a working prototype and demonstrate as this could possibly be next gen and we volt can compete with chinese makers in technology


  78. 78
    Harrier 1970

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (4:52 am)

    its a battery…. it won’t change the flashlight.

    I am sure that they can make a Volt battery or a Tesla battery version and sell those off on the after market.


  79. 79
    DocM

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (5:03 am)

    #50
    BlackSun Says:
    >
    My only question with this report, is what lab did they use and are they willing to release an independent report? If so and they used a reputable lab, then it means something, otherwise, not so much. Even if it was an internal test, it still could be true, we just don’t have corroboration yet.
    =========================
    They used a very reputable lab: Texas Research International, which has done development and analysis work for the US Dept. of Defense, NASA, Pratt & Whitney, Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Johnson & Johnson, Hazeltine (military contractor), Sigma Coatings, Conoco, 3M, Dell, Hughes etc. etc.

    Yeah, I think they have that one covered.


  80. 80
    SoundsLikeIT

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (5:06 am)

    This whole thing reminds me of a few years back when everyone was talking (and talking and talking) about “IT”. I hope EEStor doesn’t turn out to be as big a disappointment as the Segway.


  81. 81
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (5:36 am)

    EEStor’s product is just around the corner.


  82. 82
    Darius

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (6:18 am)

    Impresive voltage level 3500 V.


  83. 83
    CDAVIS

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (6:32 am)

    ______________________________________________________
    #6 Seth Said:
    Why does gm-volt.com continue to give this company credibility by reporting on it. This press release means nothing.
    __________

    Good Point.
    ______________________________________________________


  84. 84
    Mark

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (6:41 am)

    Ugh, EEstor should either show us a product, or shut up about the product. We want to SEE something WORKING. Not just text on paper.


  85. 85
    old man

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (6:53 am)

    Questions.

    In order for an ultracapacitor to rapidly charge, Do we need to bring massive voltage and amps to it?

    Or will it charge quickly on 120-240 volts?

    If it will rapidly charge on 120-240 voltage then is it less costly to recharge?


  86. 86
    monkeyh8r

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (7:13 am)

    I once saw a monkey get trampled by a herd of stampeeding rhinocerouses. The monkey got crushed instantly and was left as a bloody smudge on the ground. It was horrific. I felt bad… for the rhinos. I mean they got blood on their feet, and one of them almost tripped and fell. Maybe there’s a goverment agency that can fund a rhino protection study or something…


  87. 87
    Joshua Bretz

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (7:25 am)

    I’m an electrical engineer specializing in power electronics.

    The main argument by EEStor skeptics in the ultracap business was that this permittivity was impossible when the full voltage was applied. It is unfortunate that the press release does not address this concern directly, instead just giving a general permittivity number which everyone agrees is valid at zero electric field.

    EEStor has claimed repeatedly that the permittivity of its modified-composition alumina-coated barium titanate dielectric material DOES NOT vary significantly with applied voltage or temperature. If we take this point on faith, then this press release means that the future has arrived.


  88. 88
    Joe

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (7:40 am)

    Capacitors have the inherent ability of charging fast but, then on the other hand, they also have the inherent ability of discharging fast. That’s why I don’t think you’ll see EV’s with capacitors only.

    They would work well for recapturing energy from the regenerative system and for a quick charge when needed but one disadvantage is… it would require a much larger cable from the power source to the vehicle. Higher voltage could be used to compensate for a larger cable but then the higher voltage becomes a safety hazard.

    In my opinion, the two technologies will merge together using each best qualities as a unit.


  89. 89
    Kevin R

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (7:49 am)

    How many years have they been saying that they’ve created this ‘breakthrough” technology? Three? Four?

    They haven’t created anything! If they had, it would be done already!

    I agree with the majority here…..it’s smelling more and more like a big scam.


  90. 90
    Adam

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (7:55 am)

    How will this react to damage from an accident? Will it ever pass UN-DOT testing?


  91. 91
    Rockyroad

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (8:14 am)

    Another Cold Fusion ????


  92. 92
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (8:34 am)

    EEStor is in the same category as Bigfoot and UFOs.

    It is nice to believe, but where is the irrefutable proof?


  93. 93
    Edwin Mang

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (8:40 am)

    EStor means that the volt will accelerate like a car the Estor has output set by demand as a supplement to the battery it is the turbo the nitro the goooooooooooo.
    I know some think it will replace the battery but it has the inherant problem that it can be fully emptied and little forwarning . As a supplement it changes from 6.5 sec 0-60 to 4.5 sec or better .


  94. 94
    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (8:58 am)

    Harrier 1970 #78

    No, actually they can’t.


  95. 95
    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:04 am)

    stopcrazypp #76

    The only way it would make a huge difference is if it was lower in price or if it had a longer cycle/calendar life.
    _____________________________

    Is that true regardless of size and weight of an EESTOR product?


  96. 96
    SM

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:07 am)

    I came hear hoping to learn something and all I learned is that this site is largely populated by a bunch of raging bull$hit artists. It’s as though the opportunity to engage in empty speculation and bluster is the reason they get up in the morning. I suspect that whether it is of the “sky’s the limit” or “it’s all a lie” variety depends more on the mood of the market than any objective information. And, the other thing I’ve learned is that many of them aren’t just experts in science, but are also able to read the minds and motives of people they have never and will never meet.


  97. 97
    Adrian

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:10 am)

    #56 statik, MST3k rules!

    #48 Dan, house powering fuel cells are the answer not useless add on to the power grid. I bet, if you add together all the money used for the giant windmills you could have built at least one coal/nuclear power plant that would be generating more power consistantly. If you want good green power generation, it is called the solar tower.

    #87… we can only hope. Laptop users would rejoice too.

    Until there is a physical product, this feels too much a pipe dream (like cold fusion which also had a recent breakthrough).


  98. 98
    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:14 am)

    kdawg #65

    Off topic, but with GM shutting down for 9 weeks.. how will this affect the integration vehicle?
    ____________________

    There is no Volt line, there is no Volt inventory, what would they shut down, and why?

    Steve #74 – It happened – so what to do & what to say?


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:31 am)

    Sounds like more of the same from a company that keeps saying they are at the break-through point in their development. When they can prove their technology in a public demonstration, I will then believe them. Until then, it is just smoke.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:31 am)

    All we know about this potential device is it’s assumed relative permittivity at 0 volts. OK nice field potential guys at 0 volts. One parameter only. OK let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and say it works perfectly. Lets go beyond that and say it has tremendous power and energy density beyond any Li Ion battery (which I have not seen justified anywhere). Let’s say they build a terrific prototype that works perfectly. It’s lightweight stable and uses small reliable cables because the power is distributed morphologically instead of concentrated at a point.

    Wouldn’t that be great? Sure it would, but at this point no one knows if it’s possible. And even if it all worked out in a fairytale great ending, who’s to say their prototype won’t be the size of an aircraft carrier and cost hundreds of millions to duplicate?


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:32 am)

    Zenn seems to still believe in the process. I wonder what do they know that they can not tell?


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:40 am)

    N Riley

    That keeping hope alive continues to help make it easier for them to generate Zenn’s investor funding.


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    Jackson

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:44 am)

    #56 statik:

    “I have an Interocitor around here, somewhere. Where did I put it?”


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (9:52 am)

    Li-ion wasn’t patented in 2005. It didn’t instantly start people thinking about serious electric cars. Instead, it started out pretty small.

    How long did it do yeoman duty in cellphones and laptops before Tesla? Something over 20 years, I think.

    EEStor, if real, will also start out small. If you can make an amount of purified powder a year which is good for a few hundred EV batteries, you’ll be able to power 10x1000s of laptops. Which market will be more lucrative given these numbers? This allows the production to start small, then ramp up; while a few EV batteries would merely be expensive curiosities.

    There’s going to be plenty of time to optimize the EV Li-ion market, to the point where EEStor will have some trouble breaking in 20 years from now; even if it’s all that’s claimed. And even this assumes that known breakthroughs in Li-ion technology don’t pan out, or that new breakthroughs don’t happen over that timescale.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:01 am)

    If I understand what EEStor is trying to do (does anyone, really?), you cannot say that the EESU is “like a battery,” in any sense. A battery stores electrical energy by changing it’s structure chemically. A capacitor, and the claimed EESU, does not. With no reversing chemical reactions to eventually wear down the structure of the cell, how long might an EESU last? This is what is behind claims of nearly infinite cycle life (though there may be caveats moving forward which are not evident at this stage).


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    GM Volt Fan

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:05 am)

    EEStor better show the world a working prototype SOMETIME in 2009. A mind blowing demonstration of a fully operational EEStor energy storage unit in a Zenn car would be great.

    If people working at EEStor read this blog, they better get busy. A lot of us have high hopes for their technology but more of us will get all skeptical and cynical if they don’t get to the “show me” part soon. More independently verified evaluations of prototypes at least. THIS year.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:08 am)

    #52 Statik,

    Thanks for checking the GM exhibit, even though there was no news related to the Volt.

    Enjoy your remaining stay at the House of Mouse.


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    Rick Jones

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:16 am)

    BILLINGS – The Good Earth Market held an Earth Day event Wednesday, where they unveiled the first permanent electric car charging station in Billings.

    “I think that having our first designated charging spot for the three or four electric cars in Billings is a neat step in the right direction and then maybe in a few years we’ll see four or five more,” said Rick Jones, an electric car owner.

    Jones said it costs less than a dollar to fully charge his car. Perry McNeese, Good Earth Market manager, said folks can plug in for free, and that creating the charging station was inexpensive and easy.

    “We ran a standard 110 electrical circuit and then we made a sign and gave them a spot and I hope people use it, the more electric cars the better,” said McNeese.


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    Tim

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:37 am)

    Have you guys seen this website?

    https://www.chryslerllc.com/en/innovation/envi/overview/

    If Chrysler survives, they will be putting out some very nice EVs & E-REVs.

    The Volt will have competition a I say the more the merrier.

    EEStore will simply lower the prices. I really hope it’s real and soon.


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:45 am)

    Aw man….
    New thread already.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:46 am)

    Lots of good links today.
    Thanks,
    Yang

    LJGTVWOTR!!********NPNS********Independence (fro oil) Day, 2010


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (10:49 am)

    #28 Eliezer:

    I was geeting a little burned out on this particular thread, but you saved it! How about:

    “In and out, heartbreak”, or “Didn’t even draw iron”?

    Sometimes we look at a website with a whole series of famous Jim Healy sound bites. I wonder if there is an equivalent one for Chick? I don’t even follow basketball, but his stuff was classic.

    #74 Steve:

    A lot more relevant to the future of the Volt than all of this about Eestor, IMHO. I hasten to add that poor Dr. Dennis gets fried if he puts in too much GM financial stuff, and fried if he ignores it, but still……

    #108 Rick Jones:

    That’s what I’m talkin’ about. Very cool. Good for them.

    BTW, did anybody notice that, for the first time since 2004, more Americans think that the country is on the right track than don’t. There’s a ray of sunshine for all of you bloggers this AM!


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:02 am)

    jeffhre #95
    Is that true regardless of size and weight of an EESTOR product?

    I was assuming similar size & weight to li-ion, though I realize this may not be true, since it is a capacitor and existing capacitors have horrible energy density (though they claim their’s is much better).

    If it was larger in size and weight then of course the impact is decreased; it’ll be more like lead acids. However it still has the advantage of much higher cycle life (than both lead acid and li-ion), so it can still make a fairly big impact if it works.


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    Timaaayyy!!!

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:03 am)

    ZNNMF trading at about $4. Was thinking about buying puts (feels like classic pump and dump to me, or at a minimum, the frenzy will die until the next news release a long time from now. Guess the Dukes successfully worked with Beeks this time: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ZENN-Motor-Company-Comments-ccn-14986426.html?.v=1 ), but I can’t find any options trading.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:24 am)

    I keep runnng into all these nay sayers that say if God wanted me to fly he would have given me wings .
    Well God does give you wings if you earn them . So get to work and earn yours .
    Just look at all the Dinos that are on this sight . Nothing new is good and if it is good someone else has to prove it .

    Think about that .

    God Bless


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:30 am)

    I always think as many do here that the EEstor Company is likely a scam. However, ever since Lockheed had signed on awhile ago, I keep having this nagging suspicion that EEstor could be legit. I mean, you have to wonder, if EEstor is truly a scam, then wouldn’t have Lockheed been able to sniff that out by now? This is Lockheed for Pete’s sake, you know, the maker of the Stealth bomber? Someone needs to reconcile this for me before I can completely write them off.


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    Frank B

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:31 am)

    Just as a side note, LG Chem stock is up $26 today, now trading over $90. Maybe LG Chem should buy GM.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:32 am)

    112 Noel Park.- Yaaay, Bynam is back and doing the job well, EESTOR not so much.

    113 stopcrazypp “so it can still make a fairly big impact if it works” – Huh?

    111 Tagamet – hey Yin how are you, sunny and bright, didn’t know you were here today.
    Yang, er Statik, I don’t believe you, you went what 2000 km. to see… The Canadian Pavillion! Well I can’t blame you really, I’d like to go to the Netherlands one day to see the biggest July 4th celebration in the world, outside of NA that is, some day.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:35 am)

    On the right track, if going to hell is yer destination.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:45 am)

    I want an electric car like this little white one……

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=369h-SEBXd8


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:54 am)

    116 Schmeltz “the EEstor Company is likely a scam”

    I’ll try to make this not too preachy, especially ‘cus I don’t know any more than you do, LOL.

    Theory: When our hopes try to negate our common sense we often feel psychological dissonance- Hopes: Lockheed needs a big, fast releasing power source for next generation weaponry. Reality: If EESTOR’s device is as big as a Hummer and as light as the Tac0 B&II Chihuahua great for Lockheed, not applicable to Voltec though.

    GM has stated they are working with and evaluating EESTOR tech. GM has stated they would like to lower battery costs and raise battery performance through Volt generation three. Feel free to draw your own conclusions for EESTOR device Volt applications in that time frame. After all it’s only speculation!


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:56 am)

    this guy (Wier?) is a master-chief . The KING of long CON! King Con 🙂


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (11:59 am)

    @Edwin Mang 115

    Dude….whateva.

    Let me throw out a anology for you. There’s the bank and EEStore and EEStore wants to get a fat loan to open a business to sell their new ESU. The bank asks for them to show them that they can make the payments. EEStore sez “we will sell our ESU.”. The bank aks to show them the product they will sell……no product, no loan.

    So feel free to invest your funds in them for the sake of “Your belief”.


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    RB

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:00 pm)

    #85 old man asks
    In order for an ultracapacitor to rapidly charge, Do we need to bring massive voltage and amps to it?
    Or will it charge quickly on 120-240 volts?
    If it will rapidly charge on 120-240 voltage then is it less costly to recharge?

    ——————————————

    To recharge quickly, yes massive amps. (The opportunity is to be able to use massive amps and thereby recharge very quickly.)

    It will charge on 120 volts or higher. More energy will be stored when charged to a higher voltage.

    It costs the same to recharge, apart from whatever losses might be present in one device as compared to another. That is, no fundamental advantage here.

    It is argued that the hypothetical EESTOR device could be smaller and weigh less, and if that proved to be true that would be a major advantage. It also is argued that most capacitor dielectrics deteriorate over time or in some environments, and if that time was short that would be a major disadvantage. (Neither of these has to be true from some fundamental reasoning so far as I know.)


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:02 pm)

    @this guy (Wier?) is a master-chief . The KING of long CON! King Con 122

    AHAHAHAHAH!!!
    Good one!


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    Anto

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:08 pm)

    “Subject: UFTO Note – EEStor Ultracapacitor and Ultrabattery
    Date: Wed, 05 May 2004
    A number of major companies have said they would issue a purchase order quickly if specs are met.
    The company is currently seeking equity investment of $3.5 million. A business plan is available.
    Contact Richard D. Weir, President and CEO
    EEStor, Inc. Cedar Park, TX
    512-258-5669 dick_weir@eestor.us

    The above is from the UFTO in 2004.

    If Dick Weir is reading this, could he show to Doctor Lyle the ceramic battery from 2004 that met the patent specs?

    The companies that signed the PO in 2004 must still be waiting for Santa Claus to deliver the ceramic batteries :).


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (12:10 pm)

    @RVD 122

    Con they really do it?

    AHAHAHAHAH!!!!


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    coffeetime

     

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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (1:02 pm)

    I hope that EEStor isn’t the modern incarnation of Changing World Technologies. You know, the “oil from anything” venture that got good press on CBS News and Discover magazine. I distinctly remember watching the CBS video where CEO Brian Appel was feeding old circuit boards, smashed electronics, etc. into the hopper as “feedstock”, and have oil come out the other end (along with other components). To my knowledge, they built one commercial plant in Carthage, MO to accept waste from the nearby Butterball turkey plant, and while it indeed is creating oil and other useful products, it is also literally causing quite a stink. Mr. Appel laments that if only the United States would’ve instigated a “mad cow disease” policy such as Great Britain, things would’ve been hunky dory. I keep wondering why they never got around to using sewage sludge as their feedstock, since we would never run out of the stuff.

    Mr. Appel put out a blog on their website (www.changingworldtech.com/), which lasted all of four months. I’m not calling it a scam, since they did actually create a working plant, but I am getting more skeptical in my old age of bleeding edge ventures being able to walk the talk. EEStor, Changing World Technologies and even the cold fusion story on last Sunday’s 60 Minutes – they kind of remind me of the old Popular Science covers of the 60’s and 70’s where it would only be a few years when we would all be flying our personal jetpacks to work.


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    Apr 23rd, 2009 (4:09 pm)

    118 jeffhre
    113 stopcrazypp “so it can still make a fairly big impact if it works” – Huh?

    I mean a big impact on the EV market. Think about it. A cheaper, basically infinite lifecycle energy storage (capacitors can last a lot longer than batteries) can have a huge impact on the economics of an EV. Instead of 10 years on the Volt, the pack would last virtually forever.


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    Herman

     

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    Apr 24th, 2009 (2:23 am)

    This is BULLSHITTTTTT 🙂


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (7:03 am)

    10-88


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (8:26 am)

    EEStor cannot be for real.

    Because it’s too good to be true.

    It’s as simple as that. I have no idea whether they can really produce what they say they can , but as I have said before, the ability to store mass amounts of electricity, release it on demand, and not degrade your storage device, is way beyond the Volt in significance.

    Example?
    The President set aside a few billion for a smartgrid. If this device can scale up to store the night time output of even a small coal-fired EGU, we don’t need a smart grid.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (11:03 am)

    kent beuchert Says:
    April 22nd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
    IN the words of some, this is the ball game. The device apparently will work as advertised. So THAT is why my ZENN Motor stock has been going wild for the past 4 days. In two days it jumped over 60%
    for a while.
    There is only one more milestone they have to meet – the ability to produce said device on their production line, which they have been building for the past year.
    —————————————————-
    I think a more appropriate next milestone would be to build a working prototype–just one unit. If it had even one tenth the performance they promise, that would be highly significant.

    But since they have gone 4 years since their patent award without a single working prototype, they are in the category of cold fusion, compressed air powered cars, and run your car on water.


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    Apr 24th, 2009 (1:28 pm)

    Another silly press release by GM. Why don’t they do something rather than just promise?


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    Apr 28th, 2009 (7:48 am)

    In an earlier post, I expressed my concern that the original press release did not specify voltage or temperature effects on permittivity. EEStor has updated the original press release, now stating that permittivity is constant over temperature.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7bBDD5090C-E3F5-49E7-AE46-83DFB05AC897%7d&siteid=nbkh

    See commentary at

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2009/04/eestor-is-real.html


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    Apr 28th, 2009 (3:06 pm)

    #135 Joshua Bretz
    In an earlier post, I expressed my concern that the original press release did not specify voltage or temperature effects on permittivity. EEStor has updated the original press release, now stating that permittivity is constant over temperature
    _________________________________________________

    In that same press release, it indicates that the test sample was from the “PRODUCTION” line. Assuming that there has been a shred of truth to the many statements that have come from EESTOR before, this is a major event. Not only can they achieve the purity required to support this level of permitivity in the lab — they are now doing it on a production line. In the very near future, I expect that production samples will leak onto the internet and into the military (through Lockheed Martin). It is very possible that the EESU, and the associated “Zennergy Drive” will be available as off the shelf components for all manufacturers about the time that the Volt is hitting showrooms. Is this an optimistic outlook? yes. Is it a distinct possibility — absolutely.


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    GeorgeB

     

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    Apr 28th, 2009 (3:34 pm)

    What was important about the corrcted press release was the mention of the “hot pressed dielectric layers”. This is essentially the core of EESTOR’s technology, a radically improved dielectric which can be assembly-line produced. If the permittivity numbers are true and I have no reason to doubt them, EESTOR has it knocked. The anode and cathode material technology is already established (and improving all the time) so now it’s all about the assembly.

    Hope they can do it…..


  138. […] GM-Volt.com […]


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    Jun 8th, 2009 (9:13 am)

    If Eestore could produce a working prototype, then they would have true beleivers, not just dreamers. Keep repeating ; no prototype, means no product. repeat, repeat, repeat……………….

    “send me some more money, the prototype is almost ready”
    har, har, har


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    Sharufa

     

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    Nov 8th, 2009 (10:24 am)

    Nice post! rad blog


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    Watch Naruto

     

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    Dec 5th, 2009 (5:35 am)

    nice post here mate! It’s great to finally see other people online that think the same way that I do! im gonna save your website in my favorites so i can come back later!