AND 
We Enthusiasts Rally Around the Volt
The media continues to imply that Obama’s Auto Task Force could still be considering slashing the Volt program out of GM’s future, despite multiple assurances we have gotten here, including one from GM vice-Charmain Bob Lutz who told us before “the Volt will survive and prosper.”
Besides us here at GM-Volt.com, other outspoken electric car advocacy groups including Plug-in America and California Cars are concerned.
Felix Kramer of CalCars worries that the Boston Consulting Group (BCG) who is advising the Task Force are actually plug-in skeptics.
“BCG acknowledges a theoretical possibility that the U.S. could make a rapid transition to plug-in vehicles, with GM leading the charge,” wrote Kramer in his newsletter. “But it concludes it probably won’t happen — based, we think, on narrow and short-sighted ways of thinking.”
Jay Friedland of Plug-in America understands “any new technology like the Chevy Volt takes time to become profitable.”
I believe the economic phenomenon of price reduction over time and the importance of Volt technology is well understood by the Task Force.
It may such take the wealthy first adopters to pave the way. “Automakers are now busy making EV and range-extended EV prototypes; the industry is racing to democratize EVs,” writes Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla. “We will get there, but only with help from affluent early adopters.”
Sources familiar with GM’s government negotiations have told GM-Volt.com that the Volt “is untouchable.” This source also notes “the Task Force’s concerns were with the price and cost to GM. As with many first gen technologies, they’re expensive and you can’t pass that on dollar for dollar to the consumer.”
Finally these source said GM is “proceeding at full speed with the Volt and the Task Force knows and supports this.”
Source (New York Times)
91 Responses to “We Enthusiasts Rally Around the Volt”
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:41 am
First !
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:43 am
With friends like the BCG who needs enemy’s?
I mean really, without Voltec, why save GM?
Well done on the NYT mention Lyle.
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Warning to Statik, concept picture used in the article.
You have been warned!
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:52 am
In the end, the US federal government will get credit for the 1st mass produced EREV. Will other automakers be able to follow and make profitable EREVs? Heck…Mr. O might drive the 1st vehicle off the production line.
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:55 am
All of this non-sense could be avoided if EVERYONE did not get bad information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ALMAntCNC4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lwh9kg5gtE
If MOST everyone bought the best car for the money i.e. Chevy Malibu Instead of a Camry or Accord GM would rock.
So fellow Americans step up to the plate and BUY AMERICAN!
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Who can honestly say what will happen to the volt when/if GM goes into bankruptcy? I’m glad to see that GM will drive off the financial cliff with the Volt’s pedal to the metal, but there is no telling where the volt’s gonna land. If the government ends up being the one to kill the Volt then we should have never given them a dime in bailout money. Honestly we probably shouldn’t have anyway but at least with the volt I feel like I’m getting the OPPORTUNITY to own a cool product with my tax money.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:18 am
Obama will not let the VOlt die. He is a strong advocate of “green” technology and has pushed for alternative fuel sources. I’m not a fan of his, but I think he is too committed to “green” to let the Volt die.
Everyone connected with GM assures us that the Volt is their key to the future. so, even if (or I guessI should say when) GM goes bankrupt, the Chevy, Cadillac, Buick and Volt are the lines that will survive and support the new leaner, meaner GM.
GO VOLT!
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Jeff@4 says: In the end, the US federal government will get credit for the 1st mass produced EREV.
It seems only fair, after all, they will have paid for it.
Robert, Volt is a product and not a line.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:29 am
The entire Volt world revolves around the high battery cost.
Lets reduce the battery size, reduce warranty costs and manufacture the pack entirely in house .
I don’t want to be a slave to OPEC for the rest of my life…
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:31 am
It is amazing how every time people want to create a strong emotional response to something about the Volt they bring back the picture of the Concept.
What a beautiful design. Great to see it again.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:37 am
FYI.
I took a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid for a test drive yesterday.. Battery in it was only half charged… the ICE did not kick on till I was up to around 65 KMs Per hour (light acceleration)… I drove it on the highway for about 15 KMS and then back into the local city. As I came up to the first set of traffic lights and slowed down, the ICE shut down at about 65 KM/hour and the car went into EV Mode.. (Battery still around 1/2 charged).. For the next 6 KMS (normal driving at city speeds up to 60 KMS) the car ran in EV mode..I then was in an area where the speed limit was 70 KMS/Hour and the ICE came on at around 65 kms/hour and stayed on till I eased off the gas for an intersection.. Again the ICE shut down at around 65 Kms/hour. For the next 2 Km or so the car ran in EV mode back to the dealership… I must say I was quite impressed… and this was a base Fusion Hybrid… I got a Canadian Price for the FULLY Loaded Ford Fusion Hybrid and it was still under $40 K. Lots of bells and whistles on the base unit too…and it was $34,500. I figure with the combined EV and ICE milage This car should be hitting aroung the 50 – 55 MPG (Canadian).. It has gone a fair way to getting me to buy one until the Volt arrives.. Next week I am taking a Honda Insight for a test drive… The appealing part about the Insight is going to be its price.. I will keep you posted.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:39 am
For those of you who do not think the government should be involved in all this I give you the preamble to the Constitution of the United States:
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“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
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I think helping and encouraging the development of the Chevy Volt
fits nicely into just about all of the points listed in the above paragraph, and violates nothing in the Constitution that followed from it.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:42 am
#7 RobertMSperry said
Obama will not let the VOlt die. He is a strong advocate of “green” technology and has pushed for alternative fuel sources. I’m not a fan of his, but I think he is too committed to “green” to let the Volt die.
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As we have now moved into the realm of political rather than the realm of economic or automotive decisions, it is easy to see the “Obama-green” decision pathway being followed.
The question is how many Volts the feds will pay for, now that the Volt depends more on them than on customers. Would Obama like 100? 10,000? a million? It can be any number at all, as they are being paid for with taxpayer dollars rather than customer dollars.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Maybe the federal Volts could be available in Washington as a follow up to the White House tour, as one of the nicer gift-shop items (for say $100). I can imagine Volts lined up along the sides of the Mall, with people coming there to pick theirs up, fully charged, capitol building in the background, at the end of a nice day of touring. It could be announced in a nice speech by President Obama on “Promoting the general welfare” of the nation. Perhaps they could sell a million by 2015, too.
/just joking of course
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:53 am
It’s either hilarious or sad — depending on how your day is going — that anyone pays so much for, and listens to, reports issued by group like the Boston Consulting. They are always a bunch of “really smart guys” who, as it turns out, generally know very little.
An overarching failure of the report is that it fails to adequately look at the benefits of EVs, limiting itself to greenhouse gases. By limiting the analysis to greenhouse gases the report fails to capture the other benefits, namely, lower health costs attributable to the elimination of particulate pollution and lower defense costs attributable to maintaining oil supplies. It’s somewhat mind boggling that the two largest costs facing the country can be ignored when evaluating alternatives.
Glaring errors also exist on a technical level. For example, the defines an E-REV as an EV that uses an ICE TO RECHARGE THE BATTERIES. Everyone working in this area should know this isn’t true, and that by design an E-REV will only recharge the batteries from the grid. Now some might say this is just a small detail, but in truth the fact that the ICE does not recharge the batteries is intrinsically fundamental to the entire economic model of the technology, namely, that it costs 1/6th as much to charge the batteries from the grid as it does to charge them from an ICE (or other source). If the authors can’t get this fundamental point correct, the entire underpinings of the report have to be called into question.
Other points are more minor but equally disturbing. For example, the report develops elaborate scenarios of how an E-REV would compete on “Total Cost of Ownership” based on the price of oil. Good idea. But it claims and then assumes that the price for a kWh of battery will be $500 in 2010 and that an E-REV will need a 20 kWh battery pack. Given this appears to be close to the current price, the $500 would seem grossly inflated. The size of the pack, at 20 kWh, also seems larger than necessary.
If the persons writing the report for the BCG knew what they were doing — and they obviously did not — they would have picked an oil price, say $100/bbl, and then plotted various E-REV and BEV configurations using different battery prices and battery pack size. This would have resulted in a fuller and more realistic picture of the possible scenarios. Their failure to do so is glaring.
Bottom line: a sophomoric effort that suggest that Treasury needs to find another consulting group.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am
The forward march of technology & the idiots that try to fight it like Boston Consulting Group.
Shame on you BCG for your myopic views and Plug-In skepticism.
If I did’nt know any better, I’d say you were shills for the oil companies.
GM-Volt.com is the voice of the Volt!!!
If not us, then who?
If not now, then when?
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:56 am
I don’t think this ‘consulting group’ really understands just how badly Americans resent sending billions and trillions of our hard earned money to the middle east just so we can fill our tanks to drive to work. If there were ANY affordable alternative that produced “equal performance and range” to a gasoline powered engine, Americans would step up to buy it. Especially if it was built in America and boosted our own economy.
I don’t NEED a Chevy VOLT. I want one so that I can do my part. Before I die, I want to see oil sheiks crying amidst their fields of shut down refineries.
God Bless America! Go VOLT.
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:59 am
When will people you people understand. The market determines product success. Not the government. I am on the list to buy!
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Dallas/Fort Worth has many of the new Honda Insight on their lots. They are having a hard time moving them. Only selling about one-third of inventory in several weeks. This is a great hybrid that costs less than $21K to drive off the lot. It has a 1.3L engine and is rated at over 40 mpg but the local TV reviewer reported getting more than 55 mpg during mostly highway driving.
So given that this type of Hybrid is NOT SELLING WELL, how in the world is GM going to sell tens of thousands of Volts ? I don’t see it happening.
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:13 am
From an April NYT article discussing the awarding of the contract to BCG:
“According to the notice, which was published April 8, the firm’s tasks will include anticipating the size of the market for car sales over the next five years; potential market share for G.M. and Chrysler; and the sales prospects of Fiat-designed cars in the United States.”
I don’t see that BCG is being specifically asked to comment on the profitablilty of the Volt. Even if they do, I don’t think it means the death of the Volt at all. Look at how Obama handled the Iraq issue with Patreus earlier this year. He listened to Patreaus, told him what the policy goals were, and then rolled out a compromise plan that leaves 50,000 troops in Iraq for the near future. If BCG comes back wtih a Static-esque analysis of what they perceive the financial realities of the Volt to be, I suspect the Administration will tell them that it is part of the policy, and then funnel more money at the Volt and lithium battery manufacturing.
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:21 am
NZ DAVID #7 says …
Jeff@4 says: In the end, the US federal government will get credit for the 1st mass produced EREV.
It seems only fair, after all, they will have paid for it.
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“They” paid for it …… not quite. WE are paying for it and our kids / grand kids / great grand kids are going to pay for it. Stupid bailout.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Whether its Tesla, Volt, Toyota or any of the multitude of other EVs coming out, the important thing is that we are rallying behind the EV movement. I agree early adpoters are the key. I think the EV movement will be like motorcyclists, when your riding it doesn’t matter what brand your on, you wave to the other guy on the bike just knowing they ride too.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Hey if you all think this is bad you should have been around when I was working on this concept in 1974.
Take Care
Arch
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:05 am
#12 PLJ
“and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”
How can we have Liberty when we are making ourselves and our children slaves to our debtors with all the money printing going on?
The volt program was estimated in one of the previous posts at a billion dollars. By saving GM we put our kids on the hook for $50 Billion dollars. I know it’s a “LOAN”, but when GM goes bankrupt in a month does that ever get paid back? What did that $50 Billion buy our children who are gonna get the bill from China down the road? They should have done the forced bankruptcy $50 Billion ago and saved the taxpayers all that money to achieve the same results.
I agree that the Volt is very important and is going to be expensive, but the government could have set up an RFP (request for proposal) specifying that they wanted X number of EREV’s and let the automakers fight each other to win the contract. Whoever wins it would get the cash, that supports all the R&D from the taxpayers and the taxpayers would get X number of volt’s in their gov’t fleet.
That’s the way we subsidize the aviation and defense industry. I’m not going to say it’s perfect or efficient, but I don’t know any gov’t program that was quoted at a billion but ended up costing $50 Billion.
This recession is forcing Americans to tighten their budget and get out of debt. I think it’s time our govt did the same thing.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:26 am
I remind everyone that neither Obama nor his equally brainless auto czars (you know, those folks who think they can accurately predict consumer tastes into the future) has any ability to order GM to do anything. I think bankruptcy court is the way to go and as you enter, give Obama and his tax-cheating (and multiple felonious) advisors
the finger.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Now, in the case of Obama, any comments he makes (or is told to make by his thousand and one handlers) that are over two hours old are obsolete. Remember Obama saying that he didn’t plan on running any auto companies ? (if an auto company wants to produce huge losses, follow the Obama budget strategy).
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Hey all you GM Lovers (aka Losers). Your beloved company is BANKRUPT !
Didn’t you get the memo ?
Time to buy a Toyota or Honda. Can you say Quality?
GM has taken billions from taxpayer and ran this company into the ground.
The Volt may be a decent car but it is NOT worth the billions that the taxpayers have already wasted on this pathetic company. Let other responsible companies build EVs. We don’t need an overpriced Volt.
Get a clue. You Losers.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:46 am
DonC says:
“An overarching failure of the report is that it fails to adequately look at the benefits of EVs, limiting itself to greenhouse gases. By limiting the analysis to greenhouse gases the report fails to capture the other benefits, namely, lower health costs attributable to the elimination of particulate pollution and lower defense costs attributable to maintaining oil supplies. It’s somewhat mind boggling that the two largest costs facing the country can be ignored when evaluating alternatives.”
You’re absolutely right. In addition to what you said, look at something as simple as noise. Should we successfully migrate to electric vehicles in the future, would we still need all of those expensive freeway noise barriers constructed? Would property values go up for homes that were located close to roads?
But what really gets me excited about electric vehicles is rush-hour (hours?) traffic. Every major city has this scenario – miles of traffic stuck in “creep and beep” mode, barely moving, noisy, burning up fuel, heat waves shimmering up from the hot engines and exhaust pipes. Imagine instead a freeway full of electric vehicles in the same circumstances. Quiet. No fumes. Solar-paneled roofs providing free cooling (maybe not AC, but fans). No artificial heat. No burning up precious fossil fuels while you are barely moving along. While I hate traffic jams as much as the next driver, I really like that scenario.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:47 am
#11 Ray — Thanks for the report on the test drive. Keep us posted!
#23 Gsned57 says “How can we have Liberty when we are making ourselves and our children slaves to our debtors with all the money printing going on?”
The GM loans are more about the economy, the supply chain, and jobs than about about E-REVs. Had we not subscribed to the notion that financial markets were self organizing and self regulating and that therefore regulation wasn’t needed, we wouldn’t be in this mess we’re in and your idea would make perfect sense. But we didn’t, we are, and so it doesn’t.
The hyteria surrounding the bailout is wearing thin. The vast majority of TARP money went to banks, and the issue now is not whether the banks will pay the money back but whether they can pay it back sooner rather than later. We the taxpayers borrowed at less than one percent and are now making more than eight percent. Rather than making slaves of your children the loans will make them fat cats.
In this regard, loans really aren’t like a war in Iraq where money spent is money lost. The GM loans are secured and there is very little risk they will not be paid back. Future loans may be more problematic but these are down the road.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:52 am
If the government is going to meddle in GM’s business this much, GM should tell the government to take a hike and just go bankrupt without them.
At least then they can make intelligent decisions instead of being forced to do stupid tasks that please the politicians.
Ask for a low interest loan (which, BTW is in the government’s best interest, because unemployed workers don’t contribute much to the tax base), and suddenly Washington thinks they own GM.
They haven’t paid for the Volt’s development to date, they didn’t invent the technology, and they won’t contribute much help. Instead, they will borrow money that they will then lend to GM. If the government was a private enterprise like GM, they would have gone bankrupt years ago. But the government has a double standard, they can leverage the taxpayer, GM can’t.
Each of you idiots that is pissed at the GM bailout money, go look at the interest payments the US government makes on the national debt, and then come talk to me about “corporate responsibility”.
The answer is simple. Examine the business plan for its viability, lend them the money, and then get the F*** out of the way so that GM can get this thing right!
No one, absolutely no one in the government has more experience or knowledge of product development and the auto industry than GM.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Hello Volt site, i am new and have an unrelated comment about Bob Lutz’s ,um, choice of words. When he says the Volt will “survive and prosper,” is he refrencing Mr. Spock from Star TRek? anyways, I just wantd to introduce myself to the site and i am looking forward to talking about the Volt and meeting you people.
=)——batman!
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
EV revolution is inevitable, and the government knows this, the fact is the government is not quite ready yet to lose tax money from
from oil companies… the last gasp of the government to at least slow this EV revolution down is to lower the price of oil and make these EV tech so darn expensive,… they are going to use the oil price as a regulator in favor of the oil companies…see “who killed the Electric car”.. they successfully slowed it down for ten years..
i won’t let that happen… i’m almost done converting my old metro to home made EV… can’t wait anymore… too much bullshit going on
now… metro EV now until my VOLT comes out, hopefully…
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
I agree with #5
If Americans came together for buying American, GM would be doing great right now.
It seems like America wants to loose everything to over seas, soon it everything will be made in China, Thailand, Japan..
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Don’t you all see that the Volt is a platform to keep oil and gas companies profitable for 20 more years in the US? Why do you think it only gets 40 miles on a charge? It’s not technical limitations, it’s a compromise between GM and OPEC. I’m hoping a new car company comes out of nowhere and turns the automotive industry on it’s head. It’s good that Wagner is gone but bailing out companies does not lead to inovation in the auto or financial sector. US took two steps backwards after 2001.
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
#28 DonC,
Personally I don’t have a problem with the financial bailout because as far as I can tell the worst banks were either sold or went bankrupt while the ones that needed help are now turning a profit.
I also don’t want GM to go under mainly because of the jobs lost if that happens. Like i said though, I have a problem with the government loaning $50 billion dollars to GM and Chrysler before getting a viability plan. This is as much GW’s fault as it is Obama’s. Bush just passed the buck and Obama SEEMS to be heading in the right direction with viability or bankruptcy (not endless loans).
I don’t see how these loans are gaurenteed if GM goes bankrupt. Who then pays the money back? I understand we’ll get the money back if GM becomes viable and starts making money like a company should. But to me the taxpayer I don’t like the risk involved in those loans. They’ve been loosing money for years and I didn’t/don’t see anything that’ll make it change.
“in this regard, loans really aren’t like a war in Iraq where money spent is money lost” I consider the money spent in Iraq an investment. Back before we started the entire world knew without a doubt that Saddam had WMD’s. 20 odd resolutions were passed to get inspectors in and verify. They started the desert storm war that we finished. They agreed to certain terms and didn’t follow through or let our inspectors verify they were following through. I believe it was our responsibility to stop them from building up an arsenal again. Knowing what we know now about the lack of WMD’s I don’t think we should have but hindsight is 20/20.
Now I’ve gone off topic big time and talked about Iraq, finances, and politics. I just hope these bailouts turn out to be well made loans and that the Volt will survive. But if they don’t my daughter is going to be paying for it for a very long time.
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Chris @ 33…we have no choice. Even if the charge was 300 miles (like the BEST EVs on the market or conversions)…then what’s your point. You STILL NEED A GASSER.
Drive the 40 miles per charge, and charge as much as you can. It still puts a major ding in OPEC if we produce the gas within the US. I believe this.
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
DonC, #15.
” Everyone working in this area should know this isn’t true, and that by design an E-REV will only recharge the batteries from the grid.”
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Careful. You are partially correct, but the devil is in the details.
When the ICE is running (because the batteries are at the CDP-Customer Depletion Point) surges in power needs (e.g. acceleration, hill climbing) will be met by the batteries when the ICE does not have enough oomph. This can cause the battery charge to drop well below the CDP.
When the power surge is finished, the ICE will supply all the power the car needs to drive. However, the ICE will also generate a portion of power to charge the battery back up to the CDP. This ensures plenty of power is available for the next surge. Contribution to battery charging will also come from regenerative breaking.
So, charging does not only occur when the car is plugged into the electrical grid. To a limited but very important extent, the ICE does indeed charge the batteries. And so will regenerative breaking. These are the critical design features that allow the Volt to maintain its performance characteristics even after the relatively low powered ICE comes on.
I agree with you that the ICE will not FULLY recharge the batteries. That will be left for when you plug into the grid, as you state.
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April 18th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
“If Americans came together for buying American, GM would be doing great right now. ”
GMs problems have nothing to do with buying American. Its their products. They made bad products, people didn’t want to buy them. If they had made killer products at the best price that everyone had to have, they would be doing well, regardless if they were American. We shouldn’t be told to buy something based on where its made. We should make the best products and value and people will buy them, period.
Heard a guy on TV make a good analogy. Until we get to the point where you are at the car rental counter and they say “we have a Totota or a Chevy” and people pick the Chevy, GM will be in trouble. We are still at a point where 95% of people will take the Toyota.
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April 18th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
#37 Shaft
I believe that is an excellent description of how the ICE will interact with the battery once you reach CDP. I have read about it many times on this site but It is not always so clearly described. Thanks!
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April 18th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Lyle, Could we have more technical articles about the VOLT. I’d rather talk about what type of GAS cap it should have then debate the fate of GM with a bunch of rednecks, conspiracy theorists, right wing republican religious nuts and no brain “follow the leader Liberals”. In case I left anyone out, to hell with you too!
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April 18th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Bintoo @39
How about the “Shave the whales” crowd?
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April 18th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
#34 GSned57 says “I don’t see how these loans are gaurenteed if GM goes bankrupt. Who then pays the money back?”
Not all creditors are the same. Some are secured. Some are not. In a bankruptcy it’s like lining up for money at an ATM. Those first in line are likely to get cash. Those at the back are less likely. The loan terms put the government at the beginning of the line and there are definitely enough assets to secure these loans.
#36 Shaft says “You are partially correct, but the devil is in the details.”
You are of course right. Should have added something like “for all practical purposes” or “in a meaningful way”. With respect to charging the batteries, note that charging only occurs when the average power exceeds the needed instantaneous power, so in effect this recharging is “free”. However, it’s quite limited and, as such, is a completely different process than having the genset really and actually recharge the battery.
No one with any real understanding of the technology or the issues would have written the report the way it was written.
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April 18th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
#28 GMKaput
Dang it I thought you were going to tell us about the alternative Toyota or Honda that we could buy for less money that was actually an E-REV. You know, one where the wheels only rotate with electrical power and the ICE is only used as a range extender and not the primary means of power at the end of the trip. And I was hoping these marvels were examples of the new Japanese policy of not helping their automobile companys. And yet less costly than the Volt.
One question, who is building a true E-REV for less than the volt? Don’t hit me with China who can sell a car for what ever price they decide to while working their people long hours for very little pay. Do you want your job to compete against China? If you can not live on their pay scale then how do you expect others to?
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April 18th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Zzzz, let’s go early adopters!
VOLT Gen 2 (under $30K) for 2014! (1825 & counting!)
GO EV!
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April 18th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
#37 Steve
When the girl at the rental counter says “We have a Toyota that uses gas and a Chevy that doesn’t”, then it will be Toyota that the commentator will say is in trouble.
Just give it a few more years.
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April 18th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
One more thing…
How much longer do we have to wait for Lyle’s review of the VOLT mule?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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April 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Duh. How could the Obama administration force GM to cut the Volt and go on preaching about 1 million PHEVs. They have no alternative but to support the Volt and similar cars.
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April 18th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
#38 YOU are missing the point.
Don’t be “everyone”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoTpGNvhvX0
It’s the UN-educated and uniformed Americans who ARE making the wrong choices based on their perception and buying crappy foreign cars.
The facts are GM makes better cars with better gas mileage.
The perfect example is the Chevy Malibu.
You are the one who would choose a Toyota Matrix over a Pontiac Vibe-Guess what they are the same cars.
And Guess what the GM has a better warranty and ONSTAR.
EVERYONE PLEASE do your homework and after you do you will make the best choice and buy American.
And by the way when I rent a car I always choose Chevy.
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April 18th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
#38 Steve
We are still at a point where 95% of people will take the Toyota.
==========
I think your % is extremely high.
80~90% of the cars around me are GM/Ford/Chyslers with ‘foreign’ cars making up the remaining 10~20%
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April 18th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Mr. Lyle -
Were they inferring or implying? Since MSNBC didn’t come out and say that the Volt will be terminated, I assume that the conclusion you have drawn is that the coverage is negative and that consumers might infer it’s death by MSNBC’s implying of it.
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
I think the only solution to the “rally” problem is getting working models on the roads in the hands of consumers. People who dont follow this type of stuff will be exposed to it, neighbors will be curious, after that it will snowball a bit.
We can talks #’s on paper till were blue in the face, but the true test will be when the cars are rolling down the roads.
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
It will be interesting when enthusiasts finally become supporters.
The difference is one does more than just blog, actively reaching out and engaging those outside of their online community to help promote.
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
#48 ….American Flag
I agree with you in the fact that most people have the image that American – made cars suck. I also say that in order to boost the economy, American consumers NEED TO BUY AMERICAN-MADE CARS TO REVIVE THE ECONMY; THEREFORE (HOPEFULLY) INNCREASING THE AUTO INDUSTRY’S EFFECTIVENESS AT MAKING NEW CARS THAT THE PEOPLE WANT. GM has a lot of new executives who i hope make this happen. After all, in the 21st century, the demand for cars is fuel efficiency and lower emissions. I dont care if u think u are really cool with your big Hummer, let’s face it, u would have been better off without the 12mpg or whatever moneywise. you couldve probly bought a NEW hummer with the money you could save with, say a RAV4 or something. By the way, how is Hummer doing economically? GM, please keep going with Volt plan, because hopefully it will save u from economical meltdown. America still beleives in u to show the world our importance in the international auto industry.
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
By the way GM, sorry about the american cars sucking thing.
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
(what does LGTVWOTR MEAN?)
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April 18th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
#2 NZDavid, #16 Guy Incognito, #17 CorvetteGuy, #20 MarkinWI:
I agree with all of you. Next question?
#31 & #55 batman!:
Welcome. The more bloggers and the more comments the better.
Actually, it’s “LJGTVWOTR”. A mythical blogger called “Tagamet” ended all of his comments with “Let’s Just Get The Volt’s Wheels On The Road”. Many others took it up as a sort of war cry. Finally some smart as*ed blogger (no names please) who wanted to save keystrokes shortened it to LJGTVWOTR.
I noticed what appeared to be several other new “handles” here today as well. Welcome to all of you. I may not agree with every comment, but they’re all good anyway. It’s a numbers game in many ways, IMHO. If Dr. Dennis can show GM that he generates over a hundred comments on every single post, they have to pay attention to him. Keep up the good work.
BTW, I strongly support President Obama. I firmly believe that we will all be a lot better off 8 years from today. And driving Volts, with the blessing!!
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
I find these discussions so boring. Of course Obama will support the Volt. How can he get 1 million plug-ins on the road by 2015 without the Volt?
When will we get more technical info on the Volt? For example, will the charge port work outside in the snow and ice? Form the video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXD30uA1th0
it looks like the charge port will only work in a garage or other covered area.
Also, can you jump-start the Volt? Can the Volt jump-start another car? How do you hook up a 120 volt AC inverter to the Volt?
These little things matter…
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
#52 john1701a said “It will be interesting when enthusiasts finally become supporters. The difference is one does more than just blog, actively reaching out and engaging those outside of their online community to help promote.”
==================================
The change will come when people can buy one nearby.. At present it is unclear when or even if Volts will be sold anywhere near us. So it is fine as an exercise in the imagination but has no reality to it. Availability changes everything.
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
No one should have received TARP money.
People who take high risks either reap big rewards or get crushed. This is a fact of life. This is how it’s been since the dawn of man.
People who bought homes with the intent to flip for a fast buck were crushed. GM continued to pump out Hummers and assorted SUV’s and took a big hit.
A year ago I owned 15% stocks, 40% CD’s and 45% bonds. A low risk mix that was yielding about 4%. People called me “crazy” for not putting my money to work.
I didn’t lose 45% of my personal wealth during the greed induced crash of 2008. I lost 2% and I accept the minor financial punishment I received. I’m not asking for TARP or any other welfare. No one should take money from the people who accepted a low risk with low reward investment path.
=D~
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
#57 Dave G
…and what happens when you drive your Volt into a lake?
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April 18th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
kaput @27 says: Hey all you GM Lovers (aka Losers). Your beloved company is BANKRUPT !
Didn’t you get the memo ?
Time to buy a Toyota or Honda. Can you say Quality?
———————————————————————
Yes, Mr. kaput, I can say quality. It is now spelled B-U-I-C-K.
Didn’t you get the memo?
Here it is:
http://www.freep.com/article/20090320/BUSINESS06/903200331/1019/BUSINESS/Buick+tops+Lexus+in+dependability+ratings
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April 18th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
#48
I buy cars based on how well they fit my needs, not where they are made. I would gladly buy American if it was the best option in the category I want, its just for what I wanted there wasn’t an alternative I could see at the time. I drive an 08 Lexus IS350 and I absolutley love it. I shopped around at performance sports sedans there was no competitive American option to look at. If there would have been I would have gladly test drove it and considered it.
btw, I hope to replace the Lexus with a Telsa S in 2011, which is American made.
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April 18th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Steve #62
Did you look at the Cadillac CTS? It got great reviews and is said to compete well with the Lexus 350. Just wondered what you impression of the Caddy was with respect to the Lexus.
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April 18th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
You know, I’m not a rich guy, but I do OK. I have bought I believe 8 new Chevy vehicles in my life and am REALLY excited about the Volt. What I think this will all come down to is flexible financing options. To get 1 million $40,000 cars on the road (I wonder if there are that many even today) it will take 10 year financing.
The payment has to be affordable… maybe $350.00 to $400.00 per month. That means 10 year financing and challenges the life span of the battery. Is it realistic to finance a car for 10 years when you know the primary power source will be exhausted at the end of the term? I wouldn’t be surprised if we see the battery lease option as part of the initial product offering…
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April 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
The BCG report was interesting. Not much new there, though. What I hope comes of this is that the task force gets a backbone and decides that the Volt is “manifest destiny”. The report as much says that the electrification of automobiles is coming, but it will be expensive. Well, DUH!
All that is needed is the will. I’m reminded of the Sherman tanks that poured out of our factories in WWII. The world was amazed at our productivity, at what could be accomplished with the proper direction.
America CAN DO!
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April 18th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
#64 GeorgeB Says: To get 1 million $40,000 cars on the road (I wonder if there are that many even today) it will take 10 year financing.
————————————————————————————–
GM VP John Lauckner indicated he expects the Volt to cost in the mid 30s ,
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/17/car-and-driver-on-the-volt-tens-of-thousands-in-first-year-generation-two-after-5-years/
and there is a $7500 tax credit. That puts the price of the Volt under $30,000.
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April 18th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
______________________________________________________
Related:
Criticism of the Obama Administration’s Volt Report:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/23385/?nlid=1958
PS Note: I noticed that somone gave GM-VOLT.com a mention in the Comments Section.
______________________________________________________
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April 18th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
#64
No offense, I’m not sure if you were kidding or not.
10 year financing is the absolute worst idea I have ever heard. If you even consider this as plausible, its time to admit you can’t afford a 40k car.
Did a quick calc: If you financed a 40K car at 7% for 10 years, your total cost would be $55,732. You adding 40% to the price of the car and paying almost $16k in interest. You could buy a whole other car for the money you are giving to the bank.
We have a term for this in my line of work: Total. Financial. Suicide.
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April 18th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
______________________________________________________
Not Related:
Here is a bone I’m throwing to you H******n guys but PLEASE don’t use it to start a H******n discussion on this thread.
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/23388/?nlid=1958
______________________________________________________
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April 18th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
I’m hardly affluent and this is hardly overpriced after the tax credit. The minute gas goes back to $4 per gallon a tax credit won’t even be offered. All of us here need to move fast and be first in line.
Once filling stations ask gas or electric sir?, we’ll know we’ve made it to nirvana – FREE US FROM MIDDLE-EAST OIL
USAF Retired Veteran
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
As for GM quality, I bought 4 Buicks in my life (still have two of the four I first bought and another was just sold to a friend). I can’t kill them and they look great with only the slightest buffing after ten years apiece. I simply give pass them along to family and friends and keep upgrading.
With GM advertising a Buick Voltec, I’ll be trading up when that day arrives.
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I’ve owned a couple of Chevy’s. The last one was so bad I’ve sworn them off. My Hondas/Acuras have been pretty much flawless.
Thanks for the advice GM, but you’ve stunk for so long that you need to be superior (not just close, or marginally better in a few hand-picked areas) for a long time to prove yourself worth considering again.
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April 18th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Methinks the counter culture against the Volt and electric cars is big oil and maybe the Japanese and their lackeys in the press and a few oil producing states.
Ray #11 thanks for your report. Was the
Focus everything you thought it would be ?
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April 18th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
DonC #42:
“With respect to charging the batteries, note that charging only occurs when the average power exceeds the needed instantaneous power, so in effect this recharging is “free”. However, it’s quite limited and, as such, is a completely different process than having the genset really and actually recharge the battery.”
————————————————————————————-
You are painting a picture of opportunistic charging. I must admit (and I’m no expert) that I do not believe that is what will happen.
I believe that the control system will deliberately decide to crank up ICE power in order to get the battery charge back to the CDP. I believe fuel will be deliberately burned to achieve this objective and so it will not always be “free” (as it is for regenerative breaking). I believe that, in charge sustaining operation, the control system will cause the genset to really and actually recharge the battery (only to approximately the CDP of course).
I suspect (but do not know for sure) that there will also be opportunistic charging from time to time, as you point out. I believe (and once again I’m no expert) that this opportunistic charging will occur significantly less than the deliberate charging that I have described above. I believe (but do not know) this to be true because the control system should be pretty accurate at matching traction motor needs with genset output, leaving only limited opportunities for opportunistic charging.
DonC, I hope you do not think I’m quibbling. It’s not my intent. I just want to make sure an accurate picture of the control system is being formed in the minds of Volt-Nation.
I also do not mind if someone says I’m wrong and explains why. I just want to understand … completely and in detail. I believe that this particular item is significant because I must admit that I’m a little disconcerted that no one outside GM has had an opportunity to drive the Volt in charge sustaining mode. The design of the electrical flow control system (both software and hardware) in this mode must be very tricky indeed. I’m betting that GM has NOT nailed it yet. Lyle?
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
#67 CDAVIS Says: Related:
Criticism of the Obama Administration’s Volt Report:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/23385/?nlid=1958
————————————————————————————–
Thanks for the link. It’s helps to see how far off-base these guys are. Here’s a quote:
The report reaches questionable conclusions about costs for plug-in vehicles based on elevated battery costs, which it sees currently at $2,000 per kilowatt-hour now, declining to $500-$700 by 2020.
These figures are total crap. CPI already told us what the Volt’s battery costs are. CPI is making the Volt battery pack today. They said the battery pack currently costs $1000/available kilowatt-hour, and they made it clear that the available kilowatt-hours are only 50% of total kilowatt-hours to deal with end of life and charge sustaining issues. That means the Volt’s battery pack costs $500/total kWh today.
The company hired to help the Auto Task Force are over-estimating battery cost by a factor of 4!
CPI also made it clear that they were talking about the price of the whole pack, including the pack management control system. In addition, CPI said they expect prices to be 1/2 to 1/4 of what they are now in the next 5-10 years. Here’s the link to the CPI interview:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html
So to be clear, the Volt’s battery pack costs $500/kWh today, declining to $125-$250/kWh within the next 5-10 years, and those figures come directly from the company that manufactures the packs today.
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
#74 Shaft,
Yes, the ICE does occasionally deliberately recharge the battery back to the customer depletion point, as shown in figure 4 of the following diagram:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg
But in order to get into this scenario you must exceed 75hp, as shown in figure 3. For example, GM told us that 60 miles per hour up a 6% grade (very steep) would not require any extra power from the battery. So figure 2 will cover the vast majority of normal driving.
Bottom line: Unless you drive like a madman, the ICE doesn’t spend any significant amount of fuel charging the battery.
As for test-driving the Volt in charge sustaining mode, Lutz said initial tests had a bump when the ICE turned on.
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April 18th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
I completely disagree with any notion that the Volt will be expensive in context with not bringing it forward.
The production of the Volt cost-wise is NOTHING compared to the vast and obscene levels of waste in experimental programs of all sorts which are seldom discussed or revealed in the public arena.
There are all sorts of hidden budgets for ridiculous expenditures which are a dishonor to practicality in themselves. I believe that
*************************
NOTHING
*************************
would cause more widespread disgust at “history thinkers’” and also at those whom have absolutely no technical vision whatsoever, than to even make technically-inept comments or conclusions regarding this public requirement for green electric motoring.
If Voltec is not brought forward, then the public will have the right to really “get in the face” of all these other, by comparison, absurd and ridiculous governmental programs which have ANY sort of hidden cost whatsoever, and hound them out of existence by relentlessly calling and emailing representatives who oppose Voltec for technically-indifferent reasons.
There just is no excuse for anyone in this country who has any say whatsoever regarding the lending of monies to GM for the Voltec vehicle programs to not fully understand by now the imperative necessity of Voltec.
If the Voltec programs are not given highest respect for funding of loans by anyone, then there ought to be tens of thousands of emails and phone calls made to sources of opposition to *kindly* inform them as to the reasons that they are completely wrong.
By the way, to help retention of your credit to keep positioned to buy a Volt (gen 1, 2, or 3) it’s an important thing to do to work harder to keep your current vehicle well maintained per the
*********************
“severe”
*********************
service schedule, as I am finding that the intervals on most vehicles for “normal” service timing is not at all “in time” to really ensure prevention of very large repair bills, especially for automatic transmission fluid changes. (Also, get rid of that battery after the third summer or if it has that “tell-tale” acid stain on the top of it, which
********************
ALWAYS
********************
is proof that it must be replaced. even if it starts the vehicle!!
It is also EXTREMELY BAD to the computer transistor-drivers and to the transmission solenoids!!)
Dan Petit Austin TX.
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April 18th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Dave G #76:
“ … in order to get into this scenario you must exceed 75hp …”
“Bottom line: Unless you drive like a madman, the ICE doesn’t spend any significant amount of fuel charging the battery.”
———————————————————————————-
Dave G: Great diagrams showing the flow of electricity in various scenarios. Did you do them? I definitely recommend that gm-volt.com readers spend some time understanding these diagrams. They seem completely right to me, and very informative. If you did do them, great job!
For most driving situations 75 HP is more than enough. But there’s a reason why we all buy cars with 160HP, 260HP and over 300HP. Recent posts by lucky people who’ve driven the mule suggest that it “felt like” a car with 6 cylinders and 250HP. I guarantee that the Volt will not feel that way putting out an anemic 75HP in charge sustaining mode, despite all the (justified) brouhaha about electrical torque.
There are many situations when the extra power will be needed in charge sustaining mode, and that extra power will come from the batteries. How frequently these situations happen depends on many things such as driving habits (we’re not all hypermilers) and driving situations (city or highway or the many variations and combinations thereof). What I was saying is that the ICE could spend a significant amount of TIME charging the battery and will burn extra fuel deliberately to do it. Whether this is a significant amount of fuel is a relative question, but I’ll grant you that point. In the overall scheme of things, it may not be that significant for most drivers.
My major point is that, in charge sustaining mode, the battery will go through irregular but frequent charge/discharge cycles. Whether these cycles will be deep or shallow will depend on many things. I recall a calculation in a previous thread where a contributor suggested that if the CDP is 30%, there are severe scenarios where the battery could be pulled down to 10%. When that car finally hits flat road, the ICE could theoretically maintain maximum RPM (and thus be burning a “significant” amount of fuel) to charge the battery until the CDP is restored. Actually, I’d WANT the car to work that way so that I always have maximum reserve. Who would like to hit the “gas” pedal to accelerate and find that the car’s power characteristics had suddenly deteriorated compared to the last acceleration? Not me! That could be dangerous. An EREV must consistently behave the same way with the ICE on and the ICE off. That is the key requirement, and I think it is harder to meet than anyone’s discussed to date in this forum.
As for the information Lutz provided (“a bump when the ICE turned on“) …. well that “information” seemed pretty “anemic” to me. There’s far more to this than meets the eye, and I do not think GM has been particularly forthcoming about it.
Let a reporter (Lyle we hope) drive it in charge sustaining mode for a long time over a variable and sometimes difficult course.
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April 19th, 2009 at 12:35 am
#78 shaft
I think you’re exaggerating the number of times you would need to use the ICE to charge the battery back to CDP (note this is not considered to be recharging the battery). Having to use the ICE to charge the battery would be something of a zebra since, if you discharge the battery a bit below the CDP, you can opportunistically put it back in either through regenerative braking or using average power. This was explained as follows:
“And then when you take your foot off the gas, as an example when you’re done doing the merge, we had taken a little bit out and the battery has a little less in it. So what we’ll do then is we will opportunistically put that energy back into the battery either through regenerative braking or if we have to we will take some of the energy that’s not needed to turn the wheels and bring the battery up to the customer depletion level.
So we don’t recharge the battery.”
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-customer-depletion-point/
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April 19th, 2009 at 12:54 am
The remaining 589 will days seem so long with threads like this one…
OK, I just have to say it:
So for how many years will I have to finance my new PUMA???
Seriously, I hardly consider myself to be “wealthy”, but I am ready to step up and be one of the first 10K proud owners of a Chevy Volt. All this car has to do is meet the specs promised, be well built, have a respectible warranty, and good service.
The question is: Will GM let me? IMHO the staged rollout in just a few areas is a mistake. If GM wants to sell these cars in quantities that will make the bean counters eyes glisten, they need to be SEEN on the roads everywhere, not just pictures of people driving them in CA, FL, and NY. That is what will drive demand and get those production facilities going in high gear 24/7…..
One other thing. This is not supposed to be a race car. If you expect it to be a Corvette, then you are not going to be happy…..
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April 19th, 2009 at 1:53 am
DonC #79
I find the phrase “…or if we have to we will take some of the energy that’s not needed to turn the wheels” used in the same sentence as the word “opportunistic” to be a bit disingenuous. I believe that there will be extra energy available mostly because the control system decides to make it so.
And if the control system tells the ICE/genset to direct electrons into the battery, is that not recharging the batteries? Now I think we ARE quibbling over semantics!
I’ll tell you what. We’ll use the word “recharging” when we are charging to 80%, and the word “charging” when we are charging to something else (say the CDP). Now we just need to get the rest of the world to agree
I think your description is closer to correct for “lighter” driving around town (flat roads, low traffic), and mine is closer to correct when there are heavier loads (lots of uphills, lots of passing, air conditioning and other electrical loads on, into a headwind).
I guess (hope?) we’ll find out eventually.
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April 19th, 2009 at 4:16 am
People people.. be realistic !!!
When do you think GM is going to make profit?? maybe in 20 years or so… damn this is going to hurt the dollar and the tax payers..
The volt is a nice car! Really ! But… the R/D costs.. Battery costs. Are they going to make profit out of this? And make the workers happy with a good loan?
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April 19th, 2009 at 6:55 am
I’ve been thinking about this tax credit thingy [CaptJack] and now believe the amount should be $15,000.00 and be on a decreasing scale. As an example, single $40,000.00 taxable income during previous year =full amount,$60,000.00 maried couple= full amount. For every increase of taxable income of $5,000.00 there is a decrease in the tax credit of $1,000.00.
Next this tax credit should be assignable to the dealer or GM to reduce the amount financed or be applied for at the time of purchase and given to the customer as a very low interest loan which would be paid with the the following years tax return. [the interest]
This type plan would help reduce the monthly payments. If the Gov. can not come up with such a plan then the banks should be able to finance the tax credit at a low interest rate with interest only payments due till the customer receives said credit.
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April 19th, 2009 at 6:58 am
#38 Steve
“Until we get to the point where you are at the car rental counter and they say “we have a Totota or a Chevy” and people pick the Chevy, GM will be in trouble. We are still at a point where 95% of people will take the Toyota.”
———————————-
Count me in the 5% category.
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April 19th, 2009 at 7:17 am
#78 Shaft,
Yes, I drew the diagrams, based on what GM has told us. So many people on this site were asking how this worked. I figured some pictures would help. Glad you liked them.
As for running out of battery peak power in charge sustaining mode, while this is theoretically possible, I don’t think it will happen for most drivers. I’m not a hyper-miler – far from it. But I’m also not a maniac driver, and the calculations I’ve done seem to indicate it would take a maniac to run out of battery peak power.
In the Pikes Peak scenario article:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/02/the-pikes-peak-question-chevy-volt-and-the-infinite-hill/
GM said driving 80 miles per hour up a 6% grade would drain 10-15 kW from the battery. This seems consistent with calculations of others here on this forum (nasaman IIRC), that say the Volt will go around 60 miles per hour up a 6% grade on ICE power alone (no battery power at all).
So let’s assume the ICE turns on on at 30% charge and the Volt’s battery stops providing power at 10% charge. That leaves 20% of the total 16kWh for peak power, or 3.2kWh. GM says going 80 MPH up a 6% grade would draw 10-15 kW from the battery. Let’s be conservative and call it 15kW. 3.2kWh / 15kW = 0.27 hours, or around 13 minutes. At 80 MPH, that’s 17 miles.
So to run out of battery peak power, you would have to drive a constant 80 miles per hour, without ever slowing down, up a very steep and constant 6% grade, without any curves to slow you down, and without any level or downhill spots to recharge the battery, and you would have to keep that constant 80 MPH uphill speed for 17 miles straight.
I don’t know of a road that would allow any sane person to do this. All the mountain passes I’ve driven have curves that force you to slow down, and no roads go constantly uphill for 17 miles without any level of downhill spots. So it looks like any reasonable driver will never hit this limit.
Of course, all of this information from GM is somewhat informal and subject to change, but GM has said very clearly that this limit will never be reached by most drivers, and I believe them on this.
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April 19th, 2009 at 7:18 am
Re: the endless debate on which mfg’s quality is superior…
Having the perspective of beginning my driving days in the 1960s, the ebbs and flows of product quality have been interesting. To the Toyota apologists (include Nissan/Datsun, Honda, etal), the quality and desirability of their early offerings in the States was laughable.
It took them awhile, but they learned their lesson, and well. Others (domestic and foreign) did not and are long gone.
From my point of view the domestics, for the most part, started addressing those issues years ago. The evidence is showing up they are succeeding. Will take awhile, if the domestics survive, for public opinion / perception to catch up with the reality.
My employer maintains a fleet of perhaps 100 vehicles, some for pool use, others assigned to specific drivers. There is a mix of full-size four door sedans and some mid-size SUVs as an option for those in northern climes. As I mentioned previously in this blog the performance/reliability of that fleet over the years has been excellent. All are domestics.
My personal daily driver is a 10 model-year old domestic (which a Volt will hopefully replace). It is doing just fine – body, mechanicals, interior – and has since I bought it new. One warranty issue, quickly addressed in early years, a software problem. The wife drives a 2004 foreign-made, mid-size SUV we also bought new. Had two recalls, quickly and favorably resolved, otherwise trouble-free. In my view the vehicles offer comparable reliability and value. Would I shop domestic again? Absolutely – no qualms.
Long post perhaps, but the point is at least in my own vehicle purchase decisions I do a lot of research – partly out of concern that by adhering just to conventional wisdom I could in the end make less effective choices.
BTW, I do not hold equities in any auto manufacturer, nor do business with any of them.
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April 19th, 2009 at 7:40 am
It seems today there is always someone or a group that can not see the right thing to do for our country. It’s right that we push ahead to get rid of our oil addition. We need to keep the money that goes to the Mid-East in this country! I just can not understand the ways some people think today.
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April 19th, 2009 at 7:48 am
#83 old man Says: I’ve been thinking about this tax credit thingy [CaptJack] and now believe the amount should be $15,000.00 and be on a decreasing scale.
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The Volt’s battery costs GM $8000. This comes from CPI, the company that currently makes the Volt battery packs. In addition, CPI says the Volt’s battery pack should cost $2000-$4000 in the next 5-10 years.
Since the $7500 tax credit is aimed at offsetting the cost of the battery, I don’t see how a higher tax credit could be justified.
As for making the tax credit assignable to the dealer to reduce the amount financed, yes, this is a good idea.
Also, I recently found out that government tax credits apply even if you pay little or no taxes. For example, if you are retired, and have little or no income, but have enough savings to buy a new car, I believe you will get a $7500 tax refund, even though you didn’t pay any taxes.
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April 19th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Evil Conservative,
Just like I’ll spend the rest of my working life paying for George Bush’s War. But, hey, at least the roads and schools from Obama’s fiscal firehose will actually benefit this country — and none of my friends are going to have to be shot at to make it happen, either.
I identified as conservative before March 2003 — before the conservatives lost their f-ing minds. Now I’m a rabid green-clad gay-rights-promoting liberal. It’s amazing how having your friends invade a foreign country on false pretenses, and how and having a member of your family discriminated against, will turn a person liberal.
Back to the car…
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April 19th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
As with many new products the Volt will be expensive to the public and will not make a profit during its first few production cycles. After that, who knows.
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April 20th, 2009 at 10:30 am
we are not fools to import a erev vehicle from mothafuckin china or japan instead buy the volt or chrysler ev. it will be profitable in less than an year but consumers better buy it to avoid 2008 style of high oil prices
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