The New York Times reports that the Obama administration has asked GM to prepare to enter bankruptcy on June 1st. We have known this would be the plan ever since Obama made his announcement last month, and is expected to occur if bondholders and the UAW did not agree to concessions exchanging money they are owed for equity.
The plan is apparently to have GM enter bankruptcy court on June 1st and then a quick surgical procedure will take place. The good assets like Chevy, Voltec, Cadillac, GMC, and Buick would immediately be sold to a new GM at a government cost of $5 to $7 billion. The bad assets including dead brands, useless factories, and healthcare obligations would sit in court potentially for years in liquidation and at a Government cost of up to $70 billion. In the process too the Government is likely to have to take a loss on its loans so far to GM, something which could only happen in the setting of bankruptcy. Alternatively the Government could take an equity stake in the new GM in exchange for the loans, effectively nationalizing the company at least until shares could be quickly sold.
Experts agree the new GM could emerge in 2 weeks and that company operations wouldn’t miss a beat. Along for the ride will of course be the Chevy Volt and the whole Voltec program. Then, the new GM would be eligible for the $10.6 billion in advanced technology loans needed to build that Voltec program and all will be well.
There are concerns of course that the UAW and bondholders, angered about being left in the dust, might try to block the process in court, but it seems the Government is confident of winning.
Another fear is if consumers will balk at buying GM products because of this, but keeping the process very brief, Obama’s announcement that the Government will back all of their warranties, and GM’s new consumer confidence program all will help.
Volt still coming November 2010 – don’t miss it.
Source (New York Times)
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:19 pm)“Volt still coming November 2010 – don’t miss it.”
Lots of ups and downs en route, no doubt.
How many of us will still be employed in 2010? (Sorry, my company just laid of a bunch of folks, and there’s no guarantee that it will survive into 2010, itself. No, we’re not likely to get a bailout).
Stay tuned.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:20 pm)The Fritz Blitz is on.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:21 pm)It will not be fine . . . it will be better than fine! The debt needs to be reduced! Unions and parts makers also need to give some more concessions.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:25 pm)Just like that huh? Sounds a little to easy.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:32 pm)How about each of us on the Volt list get one for free ?
Only seems fair and we’ll promise to give them a good try out and keep them posted on our findings, likes and dislikes.
A real stimulus package !
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:36 pm)“The good assets like Chevy, Voltec, Cadillac, GMC, and Buick would immediately be sold to a new GM at a government cost of $5 to $7 Billion. The bad assets including dead brands, useless factories, and healthcare obligations would sit in court potentially for years in liquidation and at a Government cost of up to $70 Billion.”
“Gov’t cost” is a completely asinine paradigm. It suggests that someone other than “We, the People” are funding these private “for profit” companies when in fact, WE are being FORCED to bear the financial burden and take all the risks while OTHERS reap the rewards. This is corporatism at it’s very worst!
It is NOT the “Gov’t Cost”. It is the TAXPAYERS cost and we WILL be FORCED to pay for it in both much higher taxes and debasing our currency causing EVERYTHING to cost more. This inflation will hurt the working poor most of all. Progressives SUCK!
Corporatism + Statism + Socialism = “Progressive Fascism”
http://ceo4aday.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/progressive-fascism-the-new-american-way/
http://www.lewrockwell.com/long/long7.html
Hitler and Mussolini used this formula and were VERY popular with their own people… at first. Power corrupts and ultimate power…!
(some things like human nature NEVER change.)
“We, the People” should have NOTHING to do with this corporate welfare and we should NOT let that Obamination currently occupying the White House follow Bush’s lead down the road to Fascism!
STOP THE INSANITY!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:40 pm)This is a joke? “surgical bankruptcy?” This isn’t legal. As a lawyer, this is absolute mockery of the system. So let me guess, government “buys” Chevy for $6-7 billion as a type of “secured” or preference-creditor and walks with the only asset while screwing the bondholders, shareholders, UAW, etc? The government owns the means of production…What country is this???? The government just STOLE the WEALTH (not much there, admittedly). This may piss me off bad enough to buy Ford, or foreign. Does it not ring a bell with anyone here what is occurring? Foreign fuel be damned…this enemy is on our soil.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:40 pm)Government: “We are really going to put you into bankruptcy this time…you better deal”
Bondholders: “f-off and do it already”
UAW: “Talk to the bondholders before you talk to us”
—-
/GSB FTW – too bad this wasn’t still last november…funny how opinions change
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:43 pm)GM must not be bailed out at the cost of $70 billion in tax payer fund for the sake of Volt, Volt is not worth $70 billion and there will be others to take GM’s place in offering PHEVs with 40 mile AER.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:45 pm)Do the bondholders/UAW have any leverage here to mess this up or can the government slam it through in 2 weeks as planned?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:48 pm)I’m OK with a GSB for GM so long as we can be reasonably be assured it will work, and they won’t go into liquidation, at least “The Good GM” that is. I understand nothing is guarenteed, but what are the chances of failure or success? Does anyone know? Is there any former precendence of this working somewhere else? (I’m aware of the airline industry, but this is not that).
This puts me on pins and needles for GM’s and the Volt’s sake. A lot of people can be pretty cavalier about Chapter 11 talk, but I think in reality it is a pretty difficult balancing act. To its advantage, GM has some worthwhile assets and promising brands and technologies. So if it does surface out of a Chapter 11, it could emerge a lean, mean profit machine. I just fear the worst I guess.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:53 pm)I’m sory people, sometimes I need to blow off steam. Here goes…
#6 Tim
Stop the insanity, indeed! Your melodramatic harping on the “statist” thing is getting a little tiresome. Please come up with solutions…and not your “free market” utopia stuff either. Come up with something realistic. Better yet, since this is a Volt blog, focus on the Volt without getting too preachy about the government. I’m sure there are other blogs that would like to focus on your “march to fascism.” Maybe that would be a better place for you.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:54 pm)You are being a little flippant with the whole “don’t worry the Volt will be fine”. Know one really knows if it will be fine or not. Bankruptcies don’t always go as planned, and the whole thing is very unpredictible. Could lead to a chapter 7. Lets hope the Volt is fine, but its a crapshoot for sure.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (2:59 pm)#11 Schmeltz Says:
I’m OK with a GSB for GM so long as we can be reasonably be assured it will work, and they won’t go into liquidation, at least “The Good GM” that is. I understand nothing is guarenteed, but what are the chances of failure or success? Does anyone know? Is there any former precendence of this working somewhere else? (I’m aware of the airline industry, but this is not that).
====================
Well, the government can pretty much do what it wants in this situation (and in these economic times), so if it wants, and has the political will to get behind GM inside C11 and then pull it out (and Chrysler to die), it is going to happen…I think this “2 week talk” pretty ridiculous however.
Back in november when the ‘Big 2.8′ were all looking for bailout cash/”loans” and I suggested a government sponsored bankruptcy/GSB (even though it was a fictitious thing at the time and no one was suggesting it – back pats for me) would be the best/only way to see them out…I figured at best it would take 2-3 months, not because of the fiscal/legal ramifications, but rather because it is so friggin complicated.
The gov’t has proved they have the ability to throw money at a lot of things…even without traditional approval methods, and their track record shows they can prop up businesses/banks that have no ‘business’ being around…but what they can never do, is legislate quickness, especially when they are incapable of the action themselves.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:00 pm)15.
Guy Incognito Says:
April 13th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Ha! GM has no friends.
You guys should’ve bought every Congressman & Senator when you had the chance, like Wall Street did.
If you had bought your friends like Wall Street did, you guys would’nt be herded through bankruptcy like you are now.
Instead you’d be getting bailed out like Wall Street:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=armOzfkwtCA4&refer=worldwide
Idiots.
Congressmen & Senators can be bought cheap these days.
_-=
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:01 pm)Mmmmmmmm. Bankruptcy? Ahhhhh. Ummmm. I hope I’m wrong but it’s hard to shake the feeling this will go badly.
Bankruptcy means tearing up the UAW contracts? Throwing the pension and health care funds into the lap of, ummmmm, the federal government?
I don’t know of any auto company that can exist without the UAW. Are US based Toyota and Honda factories really non-unionized? I’ve always thought just a dozen UAW picketers could shut down any factory.
The question is not who will buy a car from a bankrupt car company. The question is who will work for a bankrupt car company. Especially for lower pay, no pension and no health care.
This will not go well…….
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:05 pm)Does this mean GM will now stand for Government Motors?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:14 pm)ThombDbhomb (#12)
Who make YOU lord of this blog?
I know that YOU would like everybody to answer to you, comrade but the fact is that I don’t and never will!!!
You want the real, legal way to fix this problem? O.K.
Let GM go through the SAME bankruptcy system and procedures that EVERY other company has had to endure for the last 100 years before the “Progressive” STATIST FASCISTS like you started screwing thinks up with the idiotic “too big to fail” B.S.
They deserve NO “special treatment”!
Bankruptcy will chop them up and sell them off their assets so that somebody else can make the “Volt” WITHOUT first using lawyers, lobbyists & corrupt politicians to steal taxpayer money just to give it to these FOR PROFIT corporations. It’s disgusting!
I have no problem with profit, but to enjoy personal gain while shifting all the risk to the helpless taxpayers is NOT fair! This will KILL capitalism in favor of Progressive Fascism and we all know where Fascism leads, right comrade? Are you so willing to sell your freedom for a damn car?
We have the 2nd Amendment so that we can protect ourselves from fascists like YOU!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:24 pm)#10 Campby says:
Do the bondholders/UAW have any leverage here to mess this up or can the government slam it through in 2 weeks as planned?
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The UAW has zero leverage to ‘mess it up’ or delay it once GM files, for a couple reason…for starters they have a vested interested in still retaining some portion of their membership earning some kind of wage at the ‘new GM,’ they aren’t going to be happy, but you still have the ‘biting the hand that feeds you’ thing happening. Secondly, in C11 (GSB or not) there is a lot of precedent what happens to workers/unions/healthcare/pension etc. and what rights they have (very little)…basically they have lost control completely and are at the mercy of the process.
The bondholders/debt holders however, would have a rare opportunity, one that is in contravention from the purpose of bankruptcy, rightful compensation to creditors on the assets of the failed company/institution. They (bondholders, creditors, etc) are unlikely to stop/slow the process very much, but their fight will not end by any stretch when the ‘new GM’ is formed.
Their fight will be to argue that the ‘new GM’ is formed of assets from the ‘old GM’ …of which normally in bankruptcy, everything would be sold/auctioned off and they would get their equitable proceeds. They will argue that the ‘old GM’ was worth much, much more than it really was, because they know the gov’t is their backer…and they have limitless pockets. (a situation which never has happened before, because bankrupt companies do not have such opportunities…and the bankruptcy process was not meant to be a vehicle to shed debt and obligations for the benefit of the company who accrued them).
Basically, the litigation will run wild…but not on GM. It will be on the government, and will be up to the government to decide if they want to play ball the traditional way, or just make up rules as they go along.
Personally, I think this ‘two week’ number was just made up by the NYT, or their ’source’ is just not yet acquainted with the complexities of such a plan (I mean how could they be? They just asked GM to start drawing it up literally hours ago…and weren’t these the same guys that just barely knew how ‘car companies got paid’ a couple weeks ago after ’studying’ them for a couple months?
Again, everyone would be tickled pink if a C11 scenario only went 2-3 months (even that would be legendary)…no real reason to go quicker anyway…GM can still operate just fine inside the process. And no one is going to be afraid of buying/dealing with GM, when they have the gov’t rubber stamp and guarantee on them…if anything the opposite would be true (moreso for suppliers…finally get that dang LG Chem contract already, lol).
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Well I hate to say it, but compared to the $HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS, or maybe $TRILLIONS when it all shakes out, which have been thrown at the banks/brokerages/”insurance companies”, this is small potatoes. What a world!
Just try to remember, please, that this debacle was not created during the last 83 days. People have every right to be aghast at the measures being deployed to try to clean up this mess, but give a thought to those who created it in the first place.
I personally am not looking forward to driving a BYD.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:26 pm)#14 Statik said: “…but what they can never do, is legislate quickness, especially when they are incapable of the action themselves.”
There you said a mouth full Statik. The gov’t. has never been known for rapid fire efficiency and lightning quick speed at anything. Just doesn’t seem to be its nature. Now apply that to this situation where the gov’t is the primary overseer to a “controlled detonation” of one of the world’s largest companies….it just has me a little nervous. Thing is, I don’t have/see a better solution than this right now.
Praying for the best.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:26 pm)#16 KentT
So far none of the news articles have mentioned the UAW contracts. But if they survive intact, GM will still be at a competitive disadvantage.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and numerous other foreign automakers all have non-unionized workforces for their US plants. And, if the bankruptcy court does tear up the contracts, I doubt GM will have trouble hanging on to its current workforce. And, if they do leave, I doubt GM will have trouble finding replacement hourly workers. Especially in Michigan. Their unemployment rate is already over 10%.
GM will probably lose their best salaried workers to the foreign transplants. Engineers, car designers, etc. But that has nothing to do with the UAW.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:28 pm)#18 Tim
What has that got to do with the Volt?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:30 pm)*** Only 595 days to go ***
check out this Hitler schen from ABG ‘damn funny….’
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/13/evcast-hitler-versus-the-tesla/
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:30 pm)#20 noel park said
Just try to remember, please, that this debacle was not created during the last 83 days. People have every right to be aghast at the measures being deployed to try to clean up this mess, but give a thought to those who created it in the first place.
==================
…friggin’ Bob Lutz
(and Wagoner, and Smith, and the other Smith, and…)
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:34 pm)#13 James T
Sorry if the title seems a little flippant, you are correct a lot of people may suffer due to this, its only me hopelessly trying to be optimistic
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:44 pm)So let me get this straight. The billions loaned to GM previously, kiss it all goodbye? No way of it ever getting it paid back? Ever? Written off like it was chump change?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:46 pm)To #17: “Does this mean GM will now stand for Government Motors”.
At least the bright side of the this recession is that people still can joke and laugh.
Indeed, it should be called 3GM: Great Government Green Machine = GM + Ford + Chrsyler prepriously known because from now on, 3GM only make Solar, Hydrogen, Water, Air or Electric cars.
It is time to get rid of gasoline – powered cars and save the planet. We did a very successful Moon shot in the past. I believe we can make a Green shot this time and I trust our current Government for this.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:47 pm)#18 Tim
Which country or countries implement the policies you advocate?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:48 pm)KenT #16-
“Are US based Toyota and Honda factories really non-unionized? I’ve always thought just a dozen UAW picketers could shut down any factory.”
—————————————————————————————–
None of the foreign companies assembling things here are UAW except the NUMMI plant in California that makes Toyota products and one GM product and the Mitsubishi plant in Illinois. They are only UAW because of GM’s involvement with NUMMI and the Mitsu plant was once a joint venture with Chrysler and I guess the old contracts are still in place. All the other plants are non union and will probably stay that way.
The workers at the Mitsubishi plant were threatening to strike, but with sales of Mitsubishis way down, I think Mitsubishi would love to have the plant shut down. The UAW doesn’t get it. They’re not needed and mostly what they do is drive manufacturing out of the country.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:49 pm)#13 James T said:
You are being a little flippant with the whole “don’t worry the Volt will be fine”. Know one really knows if it will be fine or not. Bankruptcies don’t always go as planned, and the whole thing is very unpredictible. Could lead to a chapter 7. Lets hope the Volt is fine, but its a crapshoot for sure.
————
#26 Lyle said:
#13 James T
Sorry if the title seems a little flippant, you are correct a lot of people may suffer due to this, its only me hopelessly trying to be optimistic
=========================
I think your title is fine…I really don’t see any insensitivity to anyone in particular. And your optimism is pretty well founded, we basically have the government here saying, “GM lives on…we will make it live on” and with that reality comes the Volt.
In a purely selfish moment, this announcement of the gov’t telling GM to get the prepackage all ready, is great for any of us who come here primarily to see if indeed the Volt will be built…and when we can get it.
/as for the broader statement this makes and reality/consequences of this actions like this…that is another story
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:51 pm)ThombDbhomb (#23)
“What has that got to do with the Volt?”
Everything! Here are the 2 MAIN reasons:
1) We all want E-REVs to be widely accepted but GM has to build-in $8-10K/copy just to pay for all that legacy baggage which will go away during the bankruptcy. This overhead is helping to drive up the cost of the Volt and other GM vehicles so they can’t compete and making the Volt too expensive to go “mainstream”. Investors will buy GM’s assetts including Voltec technology in a bankruptcy and then build the Volt much cheaper than GM can.
2) The E-REV competitors such as BYD, Aptera, Tesla, Raser and others with similar technology will find it MUCH easier to attract investment capital because investors won’t be scared of competing against the FICKLE US Gov’t with unlimited taxpayer money funding a bloated dead horse like GM. They may also buy GM assetts such as plants & equipmet which will give them a jump-start and faster time to market.
Think about it. Who in their right mind would want to compete against the US Gov’t-GM partnership but ANOTHER US Gov’t-Ford etc partnership?
We all really want E-REVs, but I don’t care if it’s GM, Tesla, or someone else, do you? Also, do you REALLY want those nitwits in DC running our auto industry when they can’t even run public restrooms!
Oversight? Yes, just to keep monopolies from forming and DON’T feed the trolls, thus creating monopolies with regulation and redistribution.
Corporate Welfare? HELL NO! That’s feeding the trolls!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:56 pm)#10 Campby says “Do the bondholders/UAW have any leverage here to mess this up or can the government slam it through in 2 weeks as planned?”
Bankruptcy is litigation. Litigation is a form of war. And in war you never know what will happen. You’re always surprised. I’d agree with statik that this “two weeks” idea is one of those pie in the sky things.
But to answer your question, yes the bondholders have some leverage. A WSJ article today reported that the bondholders are preparing legal arguments opposing the asset sale. The union could do the same.
#22 LauraM
The plan is to sell assets. Assets don’t come with union contracts. However, it’s questionable whether you can use an asset sale to effectively void a union contract given the special bankruptcy rules for those contracts.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (3:58 pm)Here’s what better happen…
Surgical Bankruptcy….
Build my Volt!!!
Now, since most if not all debt has been all but written off, there’s no reason the Volt shouldn’t be less than $25K before the fake tax rebate thingy. Why so much less? Because they no longer need to recoup engineering/design/prototype/R & D costs. Right? Shouldv’e been written off already. So now you have an affordable product ready for the masses. All you have to do is build it!!!!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:02 pm)This had to happen…
and all will be fine and get fantastically better!
A new lean mean GM shall emerge!
Fritz keep the quality top notch buddy.
Zero room for error…I’m kinda sure you know this but you are from the the GM school that crashed and burned.
How about that new drug that wipes out selective memories?
Can we administer this to all the old school GM thinking please…
Like the commercial says….lets get a great Come Back!
Chill…everyone…Ba “ROCK” has it under control.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:02 pm)#27 CaptJackSparrow said:
So let me get this straight. The billions loaned to GM previously, kiss it all goodbye? No way of it ever getting it paid back? Ever? Written off like it was chump change?
===================
The money was gone and spent the day they cut the check.
They can call it ‘loans’ all they wanted to, but people who have had all their credit cut off and their lights are being turned off, while someone is repossessing their furniture, are not really ideal candidates for giving out money to…and expecting it back.
That money was just to kick the ball down the field a little further…to keep the panic at bay and keep people working, but at some point it just becomes absurd, and the temporarily solution becomes greater than the problem itself.
It is unfortunate they couldn’t see their way to make the hard decisions last october/november, but what can you do about that now? This is finally the ‘rightest’ decision of the choices left available I think…at least they got to this point.
I think not including Ford in all of this is a mistake (or Ford not getting involved in this is a mistake-depending on which way it is playing out behind the scenes), because the entire process is repeating itself with them…unless the gov’t has decided it is willing to see Ford go C7 in 6 months. (Maybe the gov’t wants to buy Ford’s assets out of bankruptcy to create one large US automaker…however, I think it is more likely they have just decided to ignore the problem (again) and hope it fixes itself…sadly)
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:05 pm)#32 Tim says “We all want E-REVs to be widely accepted but GM has to build-in $8-10K/copy just to pay for all that legacy baggage which will go away during the bankruptcy.”
You don’t help yourself by mis-stating the numbers. Widely accepted? You might make a case for $1500, and the real costs are probably closer to $1000. The $8K – $10K claim isn’t credible.
Note that the costs attributable to the legal requirements for the 10 year battery warranty eclipse all these legacy costs. If you care about E-REV your time would be better spent getting rid of the onerous and arguable unnecessary warranty requirement rather than worrying about the union contract.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:10 pm)#32 Tim
It all sounds so simple. As you propose; let GM fail, have investors buy GM’s assets and build a cheaper Volt. Too simple?
Also, you said, “Oversight? Yes.” That makes you a statist. Why do you hate yourself? Why must you attack me for that?
Your grasp on the real world seems tenuous. Get some help.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:13 pm)ThombDbhomb (#29) said:
“Which country or countries implement the policies you advocate?”
Who Cares! WE are the “Land of the free, home of the brave” and we should LEAD instead following as you seem to suggest. The USA started to lose it’s way and fall apart when our politicians started following Europe’s failed example of Nation Building, world empire and Conquest instead of honoring their Oath of office and Defending the Constitution.
I don’t care what “they” do. I only care that we do what’s right for individual liberty so that all may enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit happiness.
Note that happiness is NOT an entitlement, but the freedom to have a market free from monopolies both corporate and fascist-statist so that risk vs. reward can be accessed by everyone is a direct entitlement.
Gov’t redistributing to GM or any other company is rewarding failure and supporting monopoly. I’d rather have 20 small car companies than one GM so that all of our eggs are NOT in one basket-case company.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:16 pm)#39 Tim
So, you can’t cite one government that is successful in implementing the government you rant about? Maybe there is a reason for that.
Listen. You obviously are intelligent. You just need to tighten that one screw you have loose. Go see Mr. Goodwrench.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:21 pm)Would new GM stock be a good deal to buy afterwards?
Yes, I am absolutely sure it would all happen in 15 days flat.
Because all the balance sheets are in, and, anything left out would
remain as a valid debt, would it not?
The ways that the Treasury would get back all of the proceeds that it has already lent out (not “kitchen table economics”)
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ABOVE AND BEYOND THE PAYMENTS FROM GM
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is that the various taxes that will be generated with all the new vehicular sales compound all the way down to my buying a new Voltec Vehicle and paying State sales tax, and, the local dealership and employees paying in income taxes for jobs and dealerships preserved (paying property taxes, utility taxes, and on and on).
It all really does work out, as the details are left to those who have the jobs of working out those details.
Ironically, this will leave all other OEM’s at a clear disadvantage, since the outcome would be based on what is clearly seen as the ability to repay after settlements. I believe that the Voltec technologies, which are clearly not adequately represented in the marketplace, are so extremely strong and well thought-out regarding the laws of physics and just the ways that I know that GM strives to make vehicles safe, long-lived, and affordable, that I think that these many billions in very low interest loans are extremely well placed.
So much so, that I would like to ask again what are the aspects regarding any new stock that GM might issue after settlement?
Might not GM stock skyrocket?
Dan Petit Austin TX.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:32 pm)Listen up all you Free Enterprise/Laissez Faire types. I USED to be one of you until I got re-educated as to what is really going on in this world today regarding big business.
There is NO free enterprise left in this world for big businsess. (Although it still exists for small/mom and pop businesses).
Governments throughout the world are in PARTNERSHIP with the big businesses based in their respective countries. We MUST play the same game with our big corporations or we will LOSE them.
PLEASE get informed about this important subject before you utter any more words about letting GM die.
Obama is doing the right thing. We CANNOT let our American automobile manufactures go under.
The following article is rather lengthy, but is well worth the time.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:36 pm)DonC (#37) Legacy costs were $2,000/car way back in 2007 before the car business tanked with all the new debt and related servicing costs. Yes, I know that you believe that companies exist solely to employ people, but that is why gov’t exists, right? Companies exist to earn a profit for their investors. http://www.autoblog.com/tag/legacy+costs/
ThombDbhomb (#38). Oversight as in keeping monopolies from forming so that we have a level playing field. THAT’S ALL! Right now, the Feds are supporting monopolies with regulation and direct funding while they hire & fire management and set wages in the entire employee base of “gov’t funded” companies while saying that “they don’t want to run private companies… B.S.! Now, ThombDbhomb, Why would say something like “Why do you hate yourself?”. That’s just being a mean-spirited liberal.
ThombDbhomb (#40). Liberals often resort to direct personal attacks when they have nothing productive to add. It’s O.K. I expected it.
I can tell you about ONE gov’t that used the free market VERY successfully for over 200 years… the USA. They went on to lead the free world for the entire 20th century. I’m sure you’ve heard of them, right?
And I can also tell you about ONE gov’t that tried Statist Central Planning Fascism (what YOU advocate) and failed miserably… the USSR. They’re gone now… too bad, right? Yet you want to follow THEIR “lead”. Apparently you are getting your wish… happy?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:44 pm)PLJ (#42) said:
“Listen up all you Free Enterprise/Laissez Faire types. I USED to be one of you until I got re-educated…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeducation_camp
You mean indoctrinated, right?
Perhaps you need to be reminded of where the blame of today’s financial problem actually lies. This may help to remind you:
Deliberately Misplaced Blame
http://mises.org/story/3404
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:45 pm)#27 CaptJackSparrow says:
So let me get this straight. The billions loaned to GM previously, kiss it all goodbye? No way of it ever getting it paid back? Ever? Written off like it was chump change?
========================
Further to that…I shouldn’t said they will get nothing.
They will get something, likely in the form of a percentage of the new company which hypothetically can have some significant value…but the gov’t already has almost 70 billion overall (GM/Chrysler/suppliers/GMAC/ChrsyCo FIn, etc) tied up in all of this and will never get back to anywhere close to break even + you have to add on the ‘yet-to-come’ expenses, probably another 50-100 billion.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:51 pm)#43 Tim
If you favor any oversight, you are a liberal. No wonder you resort to direct personal attacks (e.g., your #18).
/fish in a barrel
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:54 pm)Where I reside a new car dealership which sells Chevrolet, Corvette, and Hummer just closed up shop today. I am shocked. I would not have expected this dealership to close. The dealership was number one in Chevrolet sales in the area. I myself have purchased several cars from them. I was told they laid off all the workers last week. This is not good. We are in bad times. It is not going to get any better when GM files for bankruptcy.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (4:54 pm)I tend to lean a little more towards Tim then ThombDbhomb but in the end what really matters is maybe only about 5% of the people can buy a Volt anyway. Will 5% of the tax payers be able to support GM? Doubt it. (we already do but that is another topic.)
Prediction …. The Volt will end up like the Solstice / Sky. The first 2 years you can’t find one …. after that all the people that wanted to buy one (can afford one) will be done buying them and they will sit unsold on car lots. (check your Saturn dealer …. Sky’s everywhere).
The only way this Voltic system will save GM is …..
1.Gas prices over $6 a gallon.
or
2. Voltic cars / trucks/ SUV’s all being built at under $25,000 OUT THE DOOR. (Tim’s idea would help bring costs down).
I would love to have a Volt but at $40,000+ and us Tax payers paying for them (inflation, devalue of currency, gov’t owned car company) ….. no thanks.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:03 pm)@Evil Conservative 48
“I would love to have a Volt but at $40,000+ and us Tax payers paying for them (inflation, devalue of currency, gov’t owned car company) ….. no thanks.”
Govt owned or Banruptcy, as long as it drops the price I will buy. If the Govt dumps $$$ into GM there’s nothing I can say about it. Sh|t, I’m a bottom feeder man, I’ll take what I can get.
lol…. =oD
The Volt should cost less now. There’s no engineering/design/prototype/R & D costs. It should be much less now.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:05 pm)#41 Dan Petit said:
Would new GM stock be a good deal to buy afterwards?
I believe that the Voltec technologies, which are clearly not adequately represented in the marketplace, are so extremely strong and well thought-out regarding the laws of physics and just the ways that I know that GM strives to make vehicles safe, long-lived, and affordable, that I think that these many billions in very low interest loans are extremely well placed.
So much so, that I would like to ask again what are the aspects regarding any new stock that GM might issue after settlement?
Might not GM stock skyrocket?
Dan Petit Austin TX.
===================
For starters the loans will not exist in anyway we see them now.
They maybe be ‘represented’ to the public as a percentage of the new GM in some form, but this would come as a result of the government backing GM out of C11 and not out of responsibilty of repayment…everyone gets the same treatment for debt inside of the process.
As for the ‘new GM’ stock skyrocketing, or being a good deal. I doubt it. You are certain to see a lot of volitile trading the 18 months or so…but this would likely be the market trying to evaluate its worth and trading on emotion rather than reality.
The basic fact remains, the US manufactured car business is a bad one. It remains to be seen if it is even viable in any form. We do not just have one company past the verge of bankruptcy we have 2 of them…and the other one is only months behind.
The Volt platform (and others in the segment-specifically EVs) only compound the problem by putting the focus on a commodity rather than the innovation…and bring the question of a viable NA car industry to the forefront quicker.
Being free from debt and past obligation does not mean profitability, it merely affords a better starting place from which to make the attempt. If your base assumption of where profitability may lie is in error, and you build your business around that model…you will fail just the same (failure will just take longer).
I’m still not sure that the government (privately) does not accept the eventual death of the American auto manufacturing sector (they do pay people to give them the ’straight poop’), but they look to breath as much life as they can into it right now to hopefully eek out another decade or so of floundering while those jobs are slowly replaced out with something else in their place (alternative energy projects perhaps? who knows)
/just my ‘off the cuff’ thought/opinion
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:12 pm)#43 Tim
“I can tell you about ONE gov’t that used the free market VERY successfully for over 200 years… the USA. They went on to lead the free world for the entire 20th century”
Seriously? What is your definition of free market? If I could find one example where the US government intervened and regulated the market in its first 200 years, would you admit you are wrong? I think I can do it. Wasn’t the SEC formed in 1934?
Well?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:23 pm)Statik @ 36,
Just looking at the surface (and pulling up vague recollections), I thought that Ford hit the wall a few months before the financial meltdown last year, and they started getting their act together on their own, starting the process of slimming down and refining their product.
I thought that making the 2nd generation North America Focus for only two years (2009-2010), and replacing it with the worldwide (“Euro”) Focus in 2011 (possibly including an electric variant) was a direct result of this. I haven’t paid any attention to any product bigger than the Ranger, though…
This picture does, indeed, seem a little too rosy… What am I missing?
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:23 pm)GM does not equal the American automobile industry. Even worst case scenario it totally folded we would still have millions of Americans working in the auto industry. Just mostly in the south instead of Detriot. The companies might be foreign owned, but they still bring in billions of dollars in the local economies and employ millions of Americas. Look at Hyundai for example, they are actually expanding their huge operations in Alabama even in this downturn.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:27 pm)#50 statik
“…the US manufactured car business is a bad one…it remains to be seen if it is even viable in any form”
I believe that Dan Petit’s premise was; the Voltec technologies will raise the US manufactured car business from the ashes, if Voltec technologies are given time to mature. But, I shouldn’t speak for Dan Petit.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:35 pm)Static
I agree with you regarding the U S auto industry being unable to compete [even the new GM] UNLESS this country insist on fair trade rather than free trade. We can not compete when foreign companys have advantage of restricted imports due to either taxes or a multi tiered import structure. We need to have a trade policy that mirrors the policys of our trade partners.
And we need to do away with free trade zones where foreign inventory can sit un taxed till it is about to be sold. Our manufactures have no such zone here or in any other country’
Kirk
but the profit from each auto goes to the home country not here. We need a home base of manufacturing or in due time we will become a lower level economic has been power.
All are IMHO
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Apr 13th, 2009 (5:57 pm)Opel and Vauxhall? What about them!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:01 pm)ThombDbhomb (#46) Said: (sorry guys, this is a long one)
“If you favor any oversight, you are a liberal.”
Absolutely NOT true. There is room for limited oversight in the Constitution, mostly within the States so they compete with each other for our tax dollars (competition good, monopoly bad) instead of enduring a federal monopoly, but I doubt you’ve read the Constitution recently or even care. Apparently, you’d rather delegate to a federal overseer like a good slave.
The Constitution directly FORBIDS the Federal Gov’t from giving taxpayer money to for profit corporations. Read the 10th Amendment! I just want Congress to HONOR their oath of office and obey the law. We peons have to obey the law and so should they…. equal application & protection so we don’t have a “privileged class”!
I have not accused you of “hating yourself”, say that “your grasp on the real world seems tenuous” and that you need to “Get some help”. Nor have I said that you are a “fish in a barrel”. I simply stated that fact that you are a Progressive-Fascist. “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet…”
Yes, that other Progressive-Fascist, FDR did create the SEC formed in 1934 while he was taking power away from “We, the people” and centralizing it in the Federal gov’t during the largest single concentration of power in American history. His Progressive-Fascist “New Deal” turned a recession into the worst depression the world has ever known. That is until now that Obama has created more US Debt in the first few weeks of his administration than that big gov’t Progressive-Fascist GW Bush did in his entire 8 years. Obama is FDR on Crystal Meth.
You should read before you write:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal
Obama’s ‘New Deal’:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/14/obamas-new-deal/
(yes, I’m giving you a link to the liberal Washington Times)
I did NOT say that American faced no challenges in the last 100 years, but I did say that it was our FREEDOM that made us great, not the Progressive-Fascist Nanny State that grew during the latter part as we followed Europe’s lead.
What does this have to do with the Volt? Competition improves quality, lower costs and spurs innovation whereas monopolies do just the opposite. As a giant monopoly, the best way to ensure your continued monopoly is to pay some politician to kill your competition with regulation that you can afford and they can’t while giving YOU more taxpayer “bailout” money and tax breaks than are given to them.
These bailouts are KILLING our chances to own an E-REV because the “company owned” Statists are putting all of our E-REV eggs in one basket-case failed company while they starve out their competition! What happens when (not if) the politicial winds change? DEAD E-REVS! Oil Wins again!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:17 pm)ThombDbhomb, #12, et al:
Someone here quoted one of my mother’s favorite sayings here the other day:
“Consider the source.”
Don’t waste your energy is my advice. I mean, it’s all just such a caricature of itself the I just have to LOL.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:23 pm)Statik and DonC
Given my very modest knowledge of all things related to economics (other than my own budget), I’d be really interested in your opinions about whether the GSB makes it more or less likely that the Volt will actually arrive (and on schedule). This isn’t a trick question, it’s just my main concern at this point (not politics, or which “ism” we’re headed toward).
Thanks in advance,
Tagamet
“Somebody, anybody, get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:28 pm)#14 statik:
I’ve gotta give it to you. You called it in November (if not before) – GSB. Sometimes reality therapy just takes longer than we might like.
#26 Lyle:
I have to agree with statik there too (#31). I didn’t see your title as flippant at all. Maybe a bit more optimistic than I feel today but hey, optimisim is like gold in this day and age. Keep it it sez I.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:29 pm)#57 Tim
Personal insults aside, let’s look at our main argument:
———————————-
Tim (#9):(Does his “free market” rant again)
Me (#29): Which country or countries implement the policies you advocate?
Tim (#39): Who Cares!
Me (#40): So, you can’t cite one government that is successful in implementing the government you rant about?
Tim (#43): I can tell you about ONE gov’t that used the free market VERY successfully for over 200 years… the USA.
Me (#51): If I could find one example where the US government intervened and regulated the market in its first 200 years, would you admit you are wrong? I think I can do it. Wasn’t the SEC formed in 1934?
Tim (#57): Yes, that other Progressive-Fascist, FDR did create the SEC formed in 1934 while he was taking power away from “We, the people” and centralizing it in the Federal gov’t during the largest single concentration of power in American history.
———————————-
So, your #57 contradicts your #43. You can’t find any examples of your “unicorn” government. If it were such a realistic idea, how come nobody does it with any success? It is a theory. A shallow, academic proposal. It is not pragmatic. It is tiresome to hear it from you ad nauseam. You are so fearful of fascism, your mind is closed to reason. You are like the guy with the “the end is near” sandwich board.
I hope that helps.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:37 pm)#58 noel park
Thanks. That is good advice.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:45 pm)#52 Luke said:
(in response to Statik #36)
Just looking at the surface (and pulling up vague recollections), I thought that Ford hit the wall a few months before the financial meltdown last year, and they started getting their act together on their own, starting the process of slimming down and refining their product.
I thought that making the 2nd generation North America Focus for only two years (2009-2010), and replacing it with the worldwide (”Euro”) Focus in 2011 (possibly including an electric variant) was a direct result of this. I haven’t paid any attention to any product bigger than the Ranger, though…
This picture does, indeed, seem a little too rosy… What am I missing?
===================
Ford lost 21.2 billion in cash in 2008. 5.5 billion of that was in Q4 2008, which took reserves down to 13.4 billion. The minimum they need to operate is pegges at 10-12 billion.
Fearing they would ‘lose it if they didn’t use it’ (ala GM last summer) they went ahead and tapped all their remaining lines of credit (about 12 billion all told) and put that with their remaing cash (total of 24 billion) into the world’s largest sock…ok, I lied, they just put it in the bank.
Now in 2009 they continue to burn money as if they were a homeless man in the middle of winter.
The estimate on the burn rate is about 4 billion per quarter in a normalized situation for 2009 (no ex-items)… however they are being forced to buy out debt obligations they can no longer refinance. (And they are paying out some other debts for 32-47 cents on the dollar- about 2.4 billion in cash + some shares on top of the burn). That leaves them with a estimated 16-17 billion at the end of Q1 (March 31st, 2009). That buyout does save them some interest (about 500 million in interest a year), but there problem is bigger than that…like actually making money rather than ‘lose less’
Fitch ratings has their cash reserve down to the minimum operating level of 10-to 12 billion as early as mid summer.
…so, not good. Best case is losing 4 billion per quarter…and no hope/outlook for profitability. They are what GM was last year at this time.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:50 pm)#33 DoncC
Union contracts can be voided in a bankruptcy proceeding. Especially when they render a company uncompetitive.
The problem is that this isn’t a regular bankruptcy. Or a regular asset sale. And I doubt Obama will be willing to basically wipe out the very politically useful UAW. The government can do what it wants here and that includes keeping the contracts intact.
I hope I’m wrong about him. And if he does get the UAW to make the concessions necessary for GM to become competitive, I will be very impressed.
#39 Tim
The economies of scale associated with the automobile industry render that impractical. The larger the company, the lower the marginal cost of production.
#50 statik
The US auto manufacturing industry is a bad one? Why? Toyota, Honda and Hyundai all make lots of money in the US auto market. (Not now, of course, but under normal economic conditions.) Why can’t a US manufacturer do the same?
Yes. All three US companies are virtually bankrupt, but that’s because of uncompetitive union contracts, and huge legacy costs. Without those liabilities, there’s no reason they can’t compete.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (6:54 pm)Yet again, Statik has been right all along. To bankruptcy they go. This is getting spooky.
Also, I am no legal expert, but this whole “surgical, quick bankruptcy” seems like it is dubiously legal. I getting a bit worried about all this manipulation of the markets. It was, in my view, largely due to government manipulation of markets that all this mess started, although corporate mismanagement and consumer idiocy certainly also played a role.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:12 pm)Kirk #53 “GM does not equal the American automobile industry. Even worst case scenario it totally folded we would still have millions of Americans working in the auto industry. Just mostly in the south instead of Detriot. The companies might be foreign owned, but they still bring in billions of dollars in the local economies and employ millions of Americas.”
______________________
Some formerly third world countries have used this scenario to take the training of their workforce along with some reverse engineering and build their own home grown industries.
IMO our laws and capital structures would make this phenomenally difficult to copy. And there is a lot to be said of the benefits of controlling your industries for strategic economic and military defense benefits.
The benefits that just don’t happen when countries control your industrials and they happily leave you with a large stock of used goods, while you ship them boatloads of fresh technological and managerial competitive insights and planeloads of fresh cash in return.
Old Man #55 – Completely agree! Allowing unfair trade unilaterally with rich, industrialized nations makes no sense at all.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:19 pm)Tim and ThombDbhomb ,
Lets be reasonable….do things my way.
FWIW: I would be in the Tim camp on this one (no suprise, right?). The heart of the issue is that we (read as USA taxpayers) will be pickiing up the tab for GM.
Problem is, we went ahead 6 months ago, and sent a butt load of cash to GM. Now, not only is our butt empty, but now we get to “save” the company that just stole our money.
You can argue until the cows come home, about whether we should or should not save GM. We all know that if GM fails it will have an immediate impact on many American families. This would not be pleasant by any means.
I said NO to the first load (no one listened), and I would still be in the camp of take your lumps now, pick up the pieces and put the puzzle back together again, but put it together the right way.
Saving GM makes another (I know, those darn bankers seem to get it easy), statement of what the Govt’ will do to save it’s industries. In my opinion this just weakens the Govt’s position in the future. Setting this precedent will, in the long run make our economy less stable, and the likelihood of similar situations occurring in the future increases.
Obama is the man now. I hope him success. I am 100% certain that GM is going to go through with the bankruptcy. Just look at what has happened:
1-Wagoner was dead set against bankruptcy
2-Obama asks Wagoner to step down
3- Fritz takes over. Says that bankruptcy is an option.
The whole reason for replacing Wagoner with Fritz is to allow this bankruptcy to proceed, and not have Wagoner’s mantra “We cannot go bankrupt, cause no one will buy our cars”
Free enterprise, no longer seems as free as it once was.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:19 pm)I really thought the parties would reach new agreements instead of turning to bankruptcy. Oh well, either way.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:21 pm)#59 Tagament said:
Statik and DonC
Given my very modest knowledge of all things related to economics (other than my own budget), I’d be really interested in your opinions about whether the GSB makes it more or less likely that the Volt will actually arrive (and on schedule). This isn’t a trick question, it’s just my main concern at this point (not politics, or which “ism” we’re headed toward).
Thanks in advance,
Tagamet
“Somebody, anybody, get the Volt’s wheels on the road!”
=================
Ooo…ooo, I’ll take it. I love this thread, lol.
Good news first:
I think that was my point earlier, that for selfish reasons, the GSB is good for those of us that are in the, ‘just build me my flippin’ Volt, consequences be damned’ category.
So yes, I think it makes the Volt project 10 times more stable, more assured than it was 6 months ago.
As you know, since the site started and up until last fall (before the gov’t got involved) I was basically pounding the drum that GM was done, there was no way, no scenario in which they would not go bankrupt even by the end of 2008. Up until the recession/sub prime fiasco, there was no vehicle/opportunity for the gov’t to step in like this to rescue GM…and no precident for intervention, no such thing as a GSB has ever happened…I just made it up the name and then the acronym because you had lots of them, and I felt left out, lol.
Now bad news:
As for on schedule. Heck no. Even a healthy GM could never have hit those initial goals. Remember the comfortably under 30k, 100,000 copies a year right our of the gate? Those are long gone.
The same will be said for the new ones…Production in 2010, 10,000 in 2011, and 60,000 in 2012 will be just as ridiculous in hindsight. There isn’t going to be any ‘real’ production coming out in november 2010 (although we could see some celebri-cars coming off the mock line).
The fact is we don’t even deal with the REAL problems of real EV manufacturing on this site…that is how far behind we are. Making a EV is not simply putting out a press release. A single prototype is what we are waiting for…still? And it is coming sometime in July, little over a year to production? Could this be any later? Seriously?
We need a whole fleet out…right now, and a working mock line to even be close to those deadlines. Mitsu/Toyota, all those guys are spending millions and millions, desperately building battery factories as quickly as they can…and just praying to be able to put out 10,000 cars by 2011.
Fact is GM is spending nothing at all on the Volt project right now…they have spent nothing since that board of directors meeting at the end of Q3 in 08. It is practically mothballed. (And no, salaries don’t count, or building lonely ‘one-offs’ to pass the time…real investment is what is needed at this point) .
GM has ‘chosen’ LG…but given them no production contract…ask yourself, how many packs can LG really get out in 19 months themselves if GM had money to give them to start today? Can they really get up to 60,000 pack annualized pace a year after that? Nobody has even come close to making such a claim. On top of that, all GM has done is canned the engine factory so far….if anything they have regressed the ‘on the ground’ footprint of Volt infrastructure.
19 months? …and haven’t even had our first thread about battery production, can’t even tell you the site of where a factory might be built.
Same goes for any threads about the Hamm facility, no status threads at all…because the status is non-existant…can’t even put up a picture of anything happening, because all that is happening is a whole bunch of old junk is just sitting around gathering dust.
There probably is old pieces of 2005 Bonnevilles and LeSabres machinery still sitting around in there…they are closer to being able to build those again than the Volt.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:23 pm)LauraM 64 “Yes. All three US companies are virtually bankrupt, but that’s because of uncompetitive union contracts, and huge legacy costs. Without those liabilities, there’s no reason they can’t compete.”
______________________
No, that’s why they were not profitable, or at times only marginally so, when they were able to do enough other things right to appear sporadically viable in the past. Today they are virtually bankrupt because on top of their past mistakes, 50% of their markets disappeared during a world wide credit crunch!
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:29 pm)So now Ford, has all the same ole burdens, and the NEW govt reformulated GM is now lean and mean!
So Ford, who tried to wallow through this mess without a handout, will be at a huge disadvantage.
So, lets get ready for GSB the sequel, coming to a wallet near you this summer.
“Back on your heads, coffee breaks over”
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:36 pm)This bankruptcy should serve very nicely when dealing with intransigents and trying to get GM down to a viable size. From where i sit there’s no other solution.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:36 pm)JEC
“So now Ford, has all the same ole burdens, and the NEW govt reformulated GM is now lean and mean!”
______________________
Hopefully this will leave Ford bondholders and UAW reps so afraid of a scorched earth ending that this whole scenario does not have to be played out times two.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:37 pm)This government executed surgical bankruptcy has the potential to be a disaster.
1: The UAW, bondholders, etc. could tie it up in court. It could potentially go to the Supreme Court which the Obama administration does not want. The right leaning court could declare the government meddling into private business unconstitutional and thus greatly reduce the Fed’s ability to execute any future bailouts for ANYBODY. I don’t remember all the gory details but the Roosevelt administration hit the same brick wall with the Supreme Court with some new deal legislation. It lead to the Justices being labeled the “Nine old men”.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nine-old-men
2: If G.M. defaults on payments to suppliers, those suppliers could go into chapter 7 themselves. I remember a 1984 documentary on Chrysler Corp. Lee Iacocca mentioned that Chrysler had (in 1984) over 750 suppliers. I bet that number is even higher now for the big 3, and even the big 6, as car companies outsourced parts production over the years.
Here is a list of parts that are NOT made by auto makers.
Glass (for the most part)
Electrical wires and wiring harnesses.
Seats
Electric motors
sensors
Filters
Electric Switches.
Light bulbs
instrument clusters
Many electronic ‘black boxes’
Radios
tires and in many cases, rims
nuts, bolts, fasteners of every type
The list goes on.
Not to mention office supplies, payments to partners (The Pontiac Vibe is really a Toyota Matrix built in a joint venture plant in California).
Bottom line, if the supplier industry collapses so to may the auto industry regardless of any bailout money or surgical bankruptcy promises.
I don’t have an alternative idea to save the big 3, but I bet the federal government doesn’t have one either.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:44 pm)This has to happen even if it drags the Volt down with it. Hope it doesn’t but GM can’t go on like this.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:45 pm)72 EdM
Thanks! I learned a new word today “intransigents”. I like it, and will plagiarize it at my every opportunity.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (7:54 pm)#67 JEC
You seem reasonable.
Just to set the record straight, I don’t like propping up a corporation either; unless it is in the best interest of the country. It is too bad the auto meltdown coincided with the US transfer of power. That affected the government response. Like it or not, the government is now taking action – not buying time.
I don’t want to argue until the cows come home about the degree to which a free market will cure all ills. I don’t know enough about that subject. I’m just tired of hearing an extremist repeatedly tell me the “answer” to all our problems. I asked the extremist to provide a case study to support his theory. He couldn’t do it.
I suspect that, over time, things will swing gently between more and less free market. But, things will tend towards the mean.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:02 pm)77
“You seem reasonable. ”
——————————————————————
Like I said, “Let’s be reasonable, do it my way”
As emotional as this whole subject can be, isn’t this site something special? I have NEVER followed any blog, and the fact that you can post your opinions, and usually get reasonable, well thought out responses is priceless.
I truly believe I have become more informed in many things, some which never really interested me before.
One thing I have learned is to be more tolerant of posters, which I believe are wrong on some subject. Usually, if they continue to post, you find they may be an expert on a totally different subject.
Rock on! Great site Dr. Dennis. (go ahead, give yourself a pat on the back)
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:04 pm)#53 Kirk
First of all, if GM and Chrysler fail, they will take a lot of their suppliers with them. That would disrupt the foreign transplants as well. That’s why the Japanese automakers want a GM bailout.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009904090422
But aside from that–assembly is only 10% of the value of the car. The parts are also important. Yes, the foreign transplants also use US made parts–that’s why they’re worried about GM failing. and I believe the car with the most US made content is a Honda. But on average, the Detriot cars use a much higher percentage of US made parts.
Additionally, most of the engineering and corporate jobs for Toyota and Honda are in Japan. So, we’re exporting the really desirable job, and keeping the relatively low paying assembly jobs. It’s the opposite of what China is trying to do with our exported manufacturing.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:11 pm)#70 jeffhre
They were headed towards bankruptcy anyway. The financial crisis just made it happen sooner. That what happens when you stop making money and sell off all of your actual assets.
It is remotely possible that they might have been able to pull off a turnaround in terms of market share in the meantime. But highly unlikely. And no turnaround would have been sufficient to pay off their staggering rapidly increasing legacy costs. That’s what happens when workers retire at 48 with pensions, health care, dental, plus life insurance.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:12 pm)Everyone seems to be missing the fact that GM might have had a profitable quarter, the1st quarter this year, and certainly by the second quarter of this year, if auto sales had stayed at least at 14.0M SAAR. The only reason they are still bleeding money is that auto sales are down over 40% from normal 16M SAAR, to well under 10M SAAR. GM is now able to be profitable with sales of just 12.5M SAAR, and when additional savings from contract negotiations, asset sales, $14 per Hr. replacement employees, etc. totally kick in, in 2010, it will cost GM a full $5,000 LESS per vehicle to manufacture than just 5 years ago.
It will be a shame if June 1 arrives and the bondholders and unions have not come to an agreement. With pent up demand for new cars building (more vehicles are currently being crushed each day than new vehicles being sold), and great new products coming from GM, it would seem possible that GM would increase their retail market share as auto sales improve above 12.5M in the coming months.
Bankruptcy scares the living poo-poo out of me, as does this current administration. I pray that in the not too distant future GM can emerge with the Taxpayers paid and independent of government involvement.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:18 pm)As a shareholder in GM that would be wiped out by any kind of bankruptcy, I have to say I don’t like it one bit.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:23 pm)Statik@69
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it greatly. I know you’ve said all along that you’ll buy the first affordable family-size electric/plugin, so given all the companies that will have plugins coming out in 2010 (or before), who do you think will get your (initial) plugin funds? Maybe by Gen 3 Volt, (God willing) things will have settled down at GM.
Be well,
Tagamet
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:24 pm)#65 ccombs said:
Also, I am no legal expert, but this whole “surgical, quick bankruptcy” seems like it is dubiously legal. I getting a bit worried about all this manipulation of the markets. It was, in my view, largely due to government manipulation of markets that all this mess started, although corporate mismanagement and consumer idiocy certainly also played a role.
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…the EU and the WTO share your concern, lol.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:26 pm)LauraM #80 – True in a lot more ways than many who would fundamentally agree with you realize. I’ve commented much the same a few times on some of Lyle’s posts before. My point may have been a little picky but important to me. Also since most other countries with car-makers seem to provide health care to the public, the legacy costs almost seem to warrant their own discussion in terms of health care or social expectations. Foreign builders are just now having to deal with this as their first round of hires begins to retire in the US.
JEC # “As emotional as this whole subject can be, isn’t this site something special? I have NEVER followed any blog, and the fact that you can post your opinions, and usually get reasonable, well thought out responses is priceless.”
I second that totally! This is an amazing site in that aspect.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:34 pm)TIM @ 44
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Did you read my link? I don’t think so, because you answered my post at @42 twelve minutes later. The article I refer to would take an hour to honestly absorb.
I didn’t read your first link in your answer either because when I looked at it it was obviously a personal attack on my intelligence. So I skipped it.
I DID, however, read your second link, and I found nothing new there. I have read ALL the works of Ayn Rand, much of Milton Friedman, and the entire Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, and many more, but the point is I know how Free Enterprise is SUPPOSED to work.
It just isn’t practiced by any nation anywhere today, so if you want to have it here in the USA you would have to shut down the borders to all trade because NO foreign countries practice free enterprise. They all use their governments to help them wedge their way into any market they choose and take it over.
If you actually read the link I suggested, I’m sure you will at least come away stunned, if you have any sense left in you.
Here it is again.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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Apr 13th, 2009 (8:43 pm)Man. There is some anger on this site today!
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering.
This is surely the path to the Dark Side!
Recommendation: Drink decaffinated coffee. It is just as tasty as the regular kind. Really. It is.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (9:25 pm)#59 Tag – You know I really don’t know. I think it makes it less likely but we’re into a time when things are becoming unknowable. Next week or next month we could wake up and have an announcement of a restructuring outside bankruptcy. You hear a lot of talk about how easy and fast a bankruptcy would be but you don’t really hear people who actually do bankruptcies saying this. The Section 363 route is totally new. No one has tried it before. So it’s really impossible to know how it will turn out.
On difference between statik and I is that he thinks GM has mothballed the Volt and I don’t. I think they were on schedule. He thinks they weren’t. So you can see that if this changes things he might think it positive while I would see it as a negative.
#64 LauraM says “Union contracts can be voided in a bankruptcy proceeding. Especially when they render a company uncompetitive.”
This is true but really irrelevant. In bankruptcy you can void or reform a union contract but only after following a specified set of steps. It takes a long time and the requirements are not easy to satisfy. However, the talk here is of a Section 363 asset sale, under which the purchaser gets the assets “free and clear” of all obligations. Obviously the union contract wouldn’t follow the assets.
The question of course would be whether Section 363 was being used to undermine all the standard rules which cover union contracts. I’m quite surprised that the Obama Administration would take this course since it has so many union busting implications. While Section 363 has never been used in this manner before, my legal instincts tells me that a judge may be reluctant to accept this approach. Essentially you’d be allowing an obscure section of the bankruptcy to negate all the carefully drawn provisions regarding union contracts. Seems like letting the exception eat the rule.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (9:32 pm)#43 Tim says “Legacy costs were $2,000/car way back in 2007 before the car business tanked with all the new debt and related servicing costs.”
So you’re admitting that your $8k – $10K numbers were bogus? I think your $2K number is wrong and that it’s really $1.5. But no big deal. Had you used the $2K number I would have just let it pass as hyperbole.
So answer this question: How do you get from $2K to $10K? You mention “new debt and related servicing costs” but those have absolutely nothing to do with legacy union costs. Really, the very thought that legacy costs might be $10K is crazy. Think about it in relation to what GM sells its cars for.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (9:36 pm)The government (us) will likely have to take a loss on it’s loan to GM? Shocking. Who would have thought?
Oh, wait, this stuff happens all the time with our corrupt government and corporations.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (9:52 pm)Is this MS Bill Gates?
http://jalopnik.com/5210372/bill-gates-files-patents-for-electromagnetic-engine-plasma-injectors
I’ve seen others demonstrating free piston generators. It’s a possible future small, inexpensive RE for Voltec.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (10:01 pm)#83 Tag said:
Statik@69
Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it greatly. I know you’ve said all along that you’ll buy the first affordable family-size electric/plugin, so given all the companies that will have plugins coming out in 2010 (or before), who do you think will get your (initial) plugin funds? Maybe by Gen 3 Volt, (God willing) things will have settled down at GM.
Be well,
Tagamet
=====================
What I think you are asking me is…when push comes to shove, who actaully gets out the door first and gets my business, as I have virtually no standards (insert joke here).
As you know my standard is the following, “Any PHEV that can be serviced inside its electrical range with 4 seats” (I actually dropped that last criteria of late…I’m getting desperate, lol.)
I think the Prius PHEV gets my money. SImple reason is that it is not its own car, just a option to the current iteration. It is pretty much plug and play off the platfrom already reverse engineered to accept the bigger pack and larger electric drive.
I would say the order of wide release in the $50,000 and less category would be:
1.) Prius PHEV -Dec 2010
2.) Mitsu iMiev – March 2011
3.) Nissan Cube – June 2011
4.) Ford unnamed BEV – Jan 2012
5.) Chevy Volt – Mar 2013
6.) Tesla Model S – June 2013
7.) Smart ed – 2013
8.) Unnamed Mazda project – 2014
Side note, this quick napkin back list is based on when I feel these companies will produce car #1,000 of the series…and are selling in wide release.
(No ENVI cars on there because they are likely toast, and no Fisker because it is well over 50K….and the other players are not large enough to qualify for a ‘wide release’ IMO)
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Apr 13th, 2009 (10:05 pm)Heck, if it’s even legal then of course this would be the way to go. However, why wouldn’t all bankrupt companies do this? Toss the bad to be paid for by taxpayers and then move forward with only the good.
Must be the new capitalist system. Yeah, the UAW and the bondholders are going to riot. It will be funny to see them both together on the picket lines. Anyway, Looks like something is going to happen in a few months. I would love to see a new UAW free (or more likely UAW lite) GM emerge that is focused on Car 2.0 and only using Car 1.0 as a bridge to get there.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (10:27 pm)69 Statik said “There probably is old pieces of 2005 Bonnevilles and LeSabres machinery still sitting around in there [Hamtramck]…they are closer to being able to build those again than the Volt”.
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I would love to see a Voltech based Bonneville. The problem with hybrid cars so far, is that they are too small inside. Little or no elbow room. After using a Chevy HHR rental for 3 weeks, I have determined that I cannot tolerate small cars. My brother has a Bonneville – it has h-u-g-e interior room.
I recently went to see the Insight at the Honda dealer. The interior room stinks – just like the Civic, the HHR, the Aveo, and every other tiny sub-compact. I’ve owned big US made cars, right up to 2000, when I bought a Hyundai Elantra Wagon. Teeny-weeny – sorry, planet Earth, but I hated that small car. In Oct 2004, I bought my Odyssey, and I love it. Vast interior room, and very comfortable.
The point? ENVI has the right idea – adapt Voltech for a minivan platform. Toyota already has the hybrid Estima (in Japan only, dammit). It’s OK to go for less gas, or gas free (Volt), but many people also value comfort. Being squeezed into a tin can is NOT comfortable, no matter how good the MPG is. GM needs to remember that. Perhaps an extra wide version of the Volt, based on the Bonneville platform?
With Voltech, we can have both higher CAFE standards and larger cars. Being “Green” doesn’t have to stand for being crammed into a tiny car.
If the Volt is as small as the Insight, you can have it. I’ll wait on the minivan version. Meantime, I’m shopping for a new Odyssey. Best car I’ve ever owned, but it has over 100,000 miles – time for a new one. And absolutely nothing has changed on the Odyssey in 4 years – the 2009’s and the 2005’s look exactly alike. Why mess with success?
I will still visit now and then – GM-Volt dot com is a great source of info, when the blog wars aren’t raging about facsism, fuel cells, bailouts, gas taxes, or whatever the crisis du jour is.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (10:59 pm)Texas 93
Yes, Section 363 looks good if you find a DIP financier with a several billions that wants you to emerge pretty much the way you want to emerge and has a big enough stick to whack all the other related parties into submission err, agreement with the plan.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (11:11 pm)DonC@88
Thanks a lot for your views as well. Absolutely no surprise to me that bright people looking at the same data can arrive at different (and valid) conclusions. Some of the more perceptive people on this site may have noticed that I have an almost imperceptible lean toward the optimistic (g), but even Moi feels slightly less optimistic about my Independence Day 2010 release date as our new Independence (from oil) Day (but wouldn’t it be neat if they released even ONE production level Volt to kick off the campaign). Almost a year ago I floated the idea of a cross country trip by a Volt driven from the Right coast to the Left coast with a different site member driving each individual tank/charge full of fuel. Maybe the trip could be done without publicity other than filming, with the film cut into commercials (or infomercials) afterwords. If there were mechanical difficulties…. well, every film needs editing (heehee as statik would say).
Thanks again for both of your inputs.
Be well,
Tag
PS If Lyle takes the first leg, Central PA (read ME), could be the second leg…. Central PA to the Ohio line would be about a tank/charge… then Bill? I-80 runs coast to coast and covers a great variety of weather conditions.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (11:17 pm)Quite a thread. Statik, can I borrow your hand for a second for some back padding? I liked your (Mit Romney’s) GSB as a credible threat to gain concesions. Some of us have been advocating that as a better option but it needed the GSB as a hammer.
The gov needed to commit to something credible to bring the stakeholders (GM, UAW, Bondholders, Dealers-what about them?) to this precipice. The gov have to appear to be 100% committed to following through to bring capitulation. The parties are now staring at two imminent choices: come to terms or be pushed off the bankruptcy cliff. The lawyers are now evaluating what this means to their stakeholder and there will be one last round of efforts to reach agreements. I think it is up to the bondholders. It is much clearer the other parties will give way to avoid bankruptcy. For the bondholders it is much murkier. They may be able to litigate their way to as much or more through the outlined bankruptcy/emergence process. Regardless of the likelihoods for the bondholders, the absolute best scenario for the lawyers is bankruptcy. It would be a smorgassborg of opportunity for them. A 2 week dip into bankruptcy, especially a 2 week dip, could leave the emerging company extremely vulnernable to litigation. I think the gov could be playing their card a little better by trying to use a less defined imminent bankruptcy option to bring the stakeholders to an all or nothing negotiating session. IMO this would be the strategy with the best chance of achieving the goals out of bankruptcy.
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Apr 13th, 2009 (11:55 pm)#97 Koz
Don’t forget that under the “good/bad GM” scenario there would still be a “bad GM” left in bankruptcy after the assets were sold to the new company. it would take a few years and an estimated $70B to wind the “bad GM” down.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (12:16 am)Just so everyone knows, the Volt gas/electric hybrid is nowhere
near gas free.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (12:31 am)______________________________________________________
A game of “We Can’t Fail – You Won’t Fail”:
A friendly game of cards between GM and the Government using and endless pile of chips paid for by you and me. It was destined to play out this way the moment GM took the position that GM can’t fail (reorganize itself under CH11) while at the same time the government held GM’s hand and declared it won’t let GM fail.
Any government engineered “bankruptcy” of GM will be a bankruptcy in name only. In action it will be a massive transference of GM legacy liabilities from GM to the American taxpayers. The government will pick up the GM UAW legacy obligations in trade of the UAW agreeing to make going forward concessions with New GM Corp. GM s suppliers will be paid off by the government in some type of special “financing facility” so that the suppliers can remain in business to provide services to New GM Corp. The bondholders will somehow be made mostly whole under some kind of special application of the TARP funds. The $Bs of government convertible debentures already made to GM will be forgiven. New GM Corp. will be granted access to $Bs of new government financing as part of a going forward financing package (that at some point will also be forgiven). I just can’t imagine it playing out any other way.
If GM avoids a “real” CH11, GM will avoid a “real” organizational reform sans shedding legacy liabilities. Avoiding organizational reforms means GM will continue to loss money. Therefore at some future date after the massive liability transference is complete, GM will either go through another round of government engineered bankruptcy (transference of liability to the taxpayers) or maybe even a “real” CH11.
Despite all this, I remain doggedly optimistic that GM will find a way to deliver the Volt to the American consumer as promised starting in 2010. Why? Because failure to do so will inflict a massive loss credibility that no amount of taxpayers appropriated money can replace.
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
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Apr 14th, 2009 (12:46 am)Grump 94,
The Volt offers pretty good interior space. Individual bucket seats for all four passengers is cool.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20022.jpg
=D~
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Apr 14th, 2009 (12:52 am)I am always amazed at all the fear. Fear of Government, fear of socialism, fear of capitalism. We are entering a very new age. This is great! No fear…These terms have only caused people to stand by theories established many years ago and have not been able to advance. We have evolved in spite of this. NASA is a governmental agency that has created amazing technologies for mankind for space…give our Country and it’s government a chance to start bringing these kind of innovations down to earth…The Voltec platform can and will be an incredible breakthrough…stop the fear and lets start new terms. Let’s be rid of the “ism’s” once and for all. The future will be bright if we give it a chance.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (3:11 am)When the People are finally forced to start paying for the mistakes of the rich, amidst an ineffective and corrupt government that is facing bankruptcy themselves, there will be civil unrest like we have not seen since the 1700’s.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (4:12 am)Hey, this is the “change” that the majority voted for. Be careful what you ask for, because you might just get it!
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Apr 14th, 2009 (5:18 am)102 Civil Unrest
I too fear it is going to happen. Many people are very angry with corporations and the government.
I think folks nowadays expect all politicians to plat fast and loose with the truth and corporate guys of course say what they are paid to say. We have lost our country and the people want it back.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (5:52 am)If I own $100 worth of GM stock today (For the record, I don’t own any stock of any kind)
and GM files C11 June 1st, is my $100 worth of stock completely gone, or can I get it when GM exits C11?
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Apr 14th, 2009 (6:47 am)Automotive News has just (this morning) published a lengthy interview with Fritz Henderson entitled “New GM CEO Henderson lays out survival plan” that offers considerable insight into GM’s current strategy. It’s long, but it’s worth reading…..
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090414/COPY/304149977/-1
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Apr 14th, 2009 (7:31 am)That is a really good article NASAMAN #107, thank you. I’m surpirsed Mr. Henderson had enough time to sit for that long of an interview. Maybe it will make some people a little less afraid of the boogeyman…or maybe not.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (7:35 am)#79 Laura,
Thanks. I get tired of pointing out the difference between the ‘transplants’ and US auto manufacturers. On a personal level, as a scientist I would like to keep a few jobs here that are not of the ’screwdriver’ category.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (7:36 am)DonC #98
Oh, I wasn’t forgetting about the bad GM part. That is another mess for the lawyers to sing their teeth into. I just think the gov and GM would have been better served to keep any details of their bankruptcy plan under wraps unless the stakeholders were sitting down at a one and done negotiating session (at least as far as the broad strokes are concerned). So far, the other parties have not shown enough good faith to have earned anything other than come to the table to resolve this now or deal with bankruptcy at the end of the 60 day period.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (8:51 am)I don’t understand how a government that cannot live within in own means can tell any company it’s time to file for bankruptcy. I guess following the administrations own suggestion the United States should also file for bankruptcy. Still excited about the volt just not as excited because of government intervention.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (9:39 am)nasaman, thanks very much for the link.
I found it to be a condensed version of Statik over the last two years. No wonder he likes Fritz so much, it’s like he reads himself. lol.
However, he definitely seems to be the right man for the job at this time. He’s bang on about the Volt as well.
Great stuff. Learnt heaps.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090414/COPY/304149977/-1
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Apr 14th, 2009 (10:04 am)#97 koz said:
Quite a thread. Statik, can I borrow your hand for a second for some back padding? I liked your (Mit Romney’s) GSB as a credible threat to gain concesions. Some of us have been advocating that as a better option but it needed the GSB as a hammer.
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Wait are you saying Mit Romney beat me to calling it a government sponsored bankruptcy/GSB? If so…I hate that guy.
Sigh, but it makes sense, not rocket science after all…and what the heck else are you going to call it now anyway? I’m sure everyone thought they were being original, hehe…losers.
I only started calling it that in mid november after JonP asked me something about how I thought my suggestion of bailout/chapter 11 might go like.
Best/earliest I could find for Mit Romney was this opinion piece for the NYT in november as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
“The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs….In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.”
Actually, that is a great piece…gutsy for him to put out, and well ahead of its time. Politicians arguing for gov’t intervention is not a real popular stand to boot…especially back then, before something like this was even considered a fringe option.
Thanks for pointing it out. Mit Romney gets a lot of extra points in my book for this, and I’ll pay closer attention to him in the future.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (10:15 am)#112 NZDavid said:
nasaman, thanks very much for the link.
I found it to be a condensed version of Statik over the last two years. No wonder he likes Fritz so much, it’s like he reads himself. lol.
However, he definitely seems to be the right man for the job at this time. He’s bang on about the Volt as well.
Great stuff. Learnt heaps.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090414/COPY/304149977/-1
===========================
Thanks for that link too nasa…I hadn’t read that one (at least not that version/length)
As for Fritz…he is the man. I have had a Fritz love in going for a long time, lol. He is the main rason I wanted Wagoner’s head for the past…well forever. No sense firing a CEO if you have nothing to replace him with, but in GM’s case they had Lou Gehrig on the bench…in relation to Wagoner’s Wally Pipp (if I can use a baseball reference).
Sidenote: Fritz is totally the wrong guy for GM if they are making money, and looking to expand the market share again, that is just not him…he is the best guy to attempt to right the ship, then hand the keys off to someone else. It is very rare you can find a CEO that excels in both company management/discipline and innovation/future planning at the same time
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Apr 14th, 2009 (11:19 am)101 Dave K said “The Volt offers pretty good interior space. Individual bucket seats for all four passengers is cool”
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Yes, but how wide are the seats? How much room between the driver seat and the front passenger seat? Based on every other econobox out there, I don’t expect much elbow room inside the Volt. And somehow, I doubt that you ever sat in a Volt. BTW, your link goes to an external view of the Volt – not much help there.
Opinion unchanged. I will wait for the Volt’s appearance (in a few years) at the local dealership, and give it the fanny test – sit in the seat, and see if it is comfortable. If it is not comfortable, I don’t buy it. Simple.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (11:23 am)Statik @ 63,
Thanks — that makes sense!
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Apr 14th, 2009 (11:24 am)99 Michael Robinson said “Just so everyone knows, the Volt gas/electric hybrid is nowhere near gas free.”
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Quite right. Everyone except GM’s own website, which says “Gas Friendly to Gas Free” when touting the Volt and its other hybrids.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Statik #113
No worries, I think GSB is yours for the trademarking. I think Obama was also hinting at this a little later but pre-Bush bailout. Seems like the quickening is now at hand.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (2:50 pm)I had a corporate law professor that described bankruptcy this way . . . . Bankruptcy is management, bondholders, and workers all holding the same grenade with each saying “Do what I say or I’m gonna pull the pin!”
It is long past time for all three groups to feel some shared pain. Blow GM up. They all need to take a hit so the healing can begin.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Advice for Tim #6: If you want your views to be taken seriously, then you really need to stop with the Hitler, fascism, Obamanation, statism, and the rest of the overblown crap. You end up looking like a Glenn Beck fan-boy loon who should justly be dismissed. As the saying goes, the first person to bring up Hitler has lost the argument.
These are desperate times and tough decisions need to be. And lots of jobs are at stake. I am certainly disgusted by much of the bail-out stuff going on . . . the tax-payer funded bonuses of millionaires at AIG was the worst. But if you want to be taken seriously, you can’t come off as a ranting loon.
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Apr 14th, 2009 (4:27 pm)#!06 Rashiid said:
If I own $100 worth of GM stock today (For the record, I don’t own any stock of any kind)
and GM files C11 June 1st, is my $100 worth of stock completely gone, or can I get it when GM exits C11?
==============================
Well, it is not really gone. Likely it trades on the OTCBB or the Pink Sheets whenever they file. At that point for all intents and purposes you are wiped out, your $100 is probably worth 50 cents. You are not going to have $100 worth (or a representational share) of the ‘new GM’ .
I think that is what you were asking?
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Apr 15th, 2009 (5:40 am)Yes, Statik. That is what I was asking.
Will my $100 still be there and grow in the “new GM’
I see that it won’t.
Thanks for your info, my friend.
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Apr 15th, 2009 (3:15 pm)All of this non-sense could be avoided if EVERYONE did not get bad information.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ALMAntCNC4
If MOST everyone bought the best car for the money i.e. Chevy Malibu Instead of a Camry or Accord GM would rock.
So fellow Americans step up to the plate and BUY AMERICAN!
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Apr 17th, 2009 (7:12 am)YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I AM SO HAPPY THAT THE VOLT WILL STILL BE MADE!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Apr 23rd, 2009 (2:21 am)
May 31st, 2009 (1:11 am)DISASTER FOR THE US $ NO MORE KING
EUROPE GM GONE n USA GM GOING BANK- ROT
THIS IS BEGINNING OF THE END FOR UNCLE SAM $ BUSINESS
THIS IS BEGINNING FOR DECLINE OF US INTERNATIONAL
BUSINESS DOMINANCE BYE UNCLE SAM
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