Apr 12

Jaguar Announces Plans To Build Extended Range XJ Hybrid Electric Car Similar to the Volt

 

There appears to be two camps when it comes to deciding on the engineering of electric cars. Some automakers such as Tesla, Mitsubishi, Nissan, BMW, Toyota and Ford believe pure electrics or plug-in parallel hybrids are the way to go. Others such as Chrysler, Mercedes, and Fisker have followed GM’s footsteps embracing the idea of the extended-range electric car.

Now Jaguar Land Rover has joined the Volt camp.

After being granted a £307 million loan last week, the Tata-owned automaker has now announced its intentions to produce an extended-range electric next-generation XJ luxury sedan which will use a similar drivetrain to the Chevy Volt.

The company plans to bring the XJ Hybrid into production in 2011. It will have a slightly lower 30 mile all-electric range, and get a slightly higher 57 mpg in generator mode.

JLR also has a mini-Range Rover hybrid based on the LRX concept using a 2.0 L diesel engine, and a super-cap bearing mild hybrid Range Rover Sport in development.

Source (Autocar)

This entry was posted on Sunday, April 12th, 2009 at 6:46 am and is filed under Competitors, E-REV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 116


  1. 1
    Michael

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:58 am)

    First.

    So, what do you think? $85,000? more?


  2. 2
    Canuk

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:09 am)

    Great! The more the merrier, I say. The automotive electrification snowball is beginning to pick up speed, with hopefully unstoppable momentum.


  3. 3
    Inhaling in L.A.

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:16 am)

    Future E-REV 4WD Land Rover? Oh, I forgot, it’s probably an Edsel as well.


  4. 4
    Niskyander2

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:19 am)

    Who gave Tata (an Indian company) a 307 million euro (500 million US dollars) loan?
    While I like Tata (they did come out with the least expensive car in the world “the Nano at ~$2000 US”), I hope it isn’t part of the US stimulus package to subsidize foreign auto manufacturers.


  5. 5
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:47 am)

    #4 Niskyander2 Says:

    Who gave Tata (an Indian company) a 307 million euro (500 million US dollars) loan?
    While I like Tata (they did come out with the least expensive car in the world “the Nano at ~$2000 US”), I hope it isn’t part of the US stimulus package to subsidize foreign auto manufacturers.
    ====================
    The UK did…Land Rover/Jag (thru Tata) employ about 14,000 people there (after the last round of 1,200 cuts).


  6. 6
    statik

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:53 am)

    The problem with this ‘future car’ is the same as GM. There is no way for Tata to get there.

    While the 500 million is nice…Tata has a 2 billion dollar bridge loan coming due from them actually buying Land Rover and Jaguar (ironically the only put down about 200 million to make the purchase…and have now received 500).

    They also need a whack of cash to get the Nano out of the makeshift 50K copies a year factory to the ‘fancy-pants’ 250,000+ factory…and after all of that cash, what is the margin on a $2,000 car? Where is the payback? How do you service 2 billion (if they can find someone to re-up them) + this latest 500 million?

    Can’t tell you year over year on Jag and Land Rover because Tata hasn’t even had them a year…but they sold about 2,700 in February, can make money with low volume, high end now? Dunno. Is there any precident for someone making a short term success out of a acquisition like this when they have no money to start with? Seems unlikely.

    Even after they got the 500 million, they basically said, thanks, we won’t lay anyone off this week, but…actually they said this:

    “According to Ratan Tata, chairman of Jaguar Land Rover’s parent company Tata Motors, Jaguar Land Rover needs £500m in further state support if it is avoid closing sites and cutting jobs….The car maker welcomed the loan approval from the EIB. ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/5120701/Europe-rides-to-rescue-of-Jaguar-Land-Rover-and-Nissan.html


  7. 7
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:53 am)

    I am happy we have free markets, because both camps will likely serve their niches well.


  8. 8
    SteveK

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:13 am)

    Related news reported in NY Times is that China has announced targets for electric vehicles and subsidies for development and fleet purchases.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/11/business/energy-environment/11electric.html

    We are really going to get electric cars this time.


  9. 9
    nasaman

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:17 am)

    I’ve seen very few (if any) comments either here or in the media about E-REV licensing, but I’m sure GM must have a staff of patent attorneys working full time to protect the Voltec/E-REV invention.

    Lyle — Could I trouble you to ask Rob Petersen or Tony Posawatz about this? Unless I’m wrong, a decision any other automaker makes as to whether to include a range extender could very well be influenced by concerns over licensing fees and/or patent infringement.


  10. 10
    nasaman

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:18 am)

    PS: Happy Easter, everyone!!!


  11. 11
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:24 am)

    As for the ‘XJ Hybrid itself’

    “The company plans to bring the XJ Hybrid into production in 2011. It will have a slightly lower 30 mile all-electric range, and get a slightly higher 57 mpg in generator mode”

    1) Production of the ‘basic’ version is pegged to begin at the beginning of 2011 (at best)…so probably not going to see the ‘hybrid’ in ’11, (especially considering they are laying off anyone who isn’t putting nuts on a wheel directly-how can they spend a billion on this project now? Is there a payback?) Maybe we could see a few in 2012, and a couple thousand in 2013?

    Which leads me to wonder if they do produce anything will it not just be a few ‘one-offs’ as they are already on the record as having a ‘all-new’ XJ debuting in late 2014, as a 2015 model. Are they really going to spend a billion dollars to just have to rework the whole thing? Feels like a green wash as they need a boatload of cash…likely they are just getting into the ‘you give us money, we will built this for you’ line.

    2) The ‘new XJ’ is basically a heavily reworked current XJ…so that means it weighs in at 3,800 pounds to start…then pack another 600 on for battery and we are at 4,400. I’m guessing at best a cd of around .30 (with what that looks to displace from the picture)…so 57MPG is totally unreasonable to me, especially with the performance that would be expected here (I’d say 33 and count yourself lucky). As for a 30 mile AER, probably looking at a 20kWh pack to boot.

    The XJ bases out around $70,000, the next gen maybe $80,000…add on another 15-20K for the ‘hybrid’, and you are looking at this going up against the six figure super premium imports and high end EVs (Tesla Roadster/Model S and Fisker Karma).

    Side note: How do people get to these fantastical MPG numbers on E-Revs when they have done zero ground/real-world work on them? If you can just pencil in 50+ based on this platform (series) when the battery is depleted, regardless of pesky things like shape or weight of the car, and is still viable to sell on even a small limited run of vehicles…why haven’t we already seen this setup adopted?

    4,400 pound Jag that gets 57 MPG ICE and performs like a Jag? I call shenanigans.

    ————–
    #10 Nasaman: Happy Easter to you too. My 3 year old had a blast hunting for Easter eggs this morning…although I think I had a better time watching him. (=


  12. 12
    CDAVIS

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:36 am)

    ______________________________________________________
    That is great news!
    The Electric Car Revolution has arrived!
    It is astounding how many car makers are launching EV/EREVs in 2010/2011.

    On a side note…in the last thread I (#91 CDAVIS) Said:
    [The Arabian Proverb “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” has its corollary: “The friend of my friend is my enemy.”]

    Lol…That was obviously a big typo…to set the record straight….it should read:

    [The Arabian Proverb “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” has its corollary: “The friend of my ememy is my enemy.”]
    ______________________________________________________


  13. 13
    PLJ

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:45 am)

    Nice looking car.

    It’s happening. The light bulbs are coming on above the heads of the world’s car manufacturers.

    EREV is the future. Ok, BEV too, but not for me.

    Happy Easter! No Easter egg hunts for me. The kids are all grown up and left the nest.

    But statik reminded me of the great times my family used to have hiding the eggs and finding them over and over. It was great fun.

    We would always come up short at the end of the day and wonder where some of the hidden eggs were lost. Then the next summer the dog would be seen chewing on something in the yard – something pink colored and smelly. Yep, the dog would always find the missing eggs.


  14. 14
    Michael

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:24 am)

    Nasaman, statik, PLJ, and all, Happy Easter to you too.

    There is a reason to be happy.


  15. 15
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:26 am)

    PLJ
    “We would always come up short at the end of the day and wonder where some of the hidden eggs were lost”
    —————————————————————————————
    Yep. Last night we hid the eggs, but before hiding we counted the number we hid, so we would know how many to look for.

    Well, we hid 20, found 19, so now there is an egg awaiting the lucky animal that finds it.

    Every year we always lose at least one egg….usually more.

    Happy Easter to all!


  16. 16
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:29 am)

    CDAVIS
    “The friend of my friend is my enemy.”
    —————————————————–
    Actually, this may unfortunately be more accurate than the corrected quote. Especially, if you have a 11 year old daughter :)


  17. 17
    CDAVIS

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:34 am)

    ______________________________________________________
    I have a friend that works for Tata Motors (the owner of Jaguar Land Rover). I texed him Lyle’s above blog article. Here is his response:

    “…More done than made public but sorry its hush on detials. Can say Tata plans to walk away with Auto X Prize and use it as cornerstone marketing for eNano very big push. Consensus my group its all going way of electric.Please my Hi to fam…Regards.”
    ______________________________________________________
    Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
    ______________________________________________________


  18. 18
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:38 am)

    #11 Statik
    “4,400 pound Jag that gets 57 MPG ICE and performs like a Jag? I call shenanigans.”
    —————————————————————————————–
    Agreed.

    No way you get numbers like these, assuming the Volt estimates are even close. Getting 50mpg in generator mode with the Volt, in my opinion, is not going to happen. I would be willing to lay down some of my stock, on a wager, that the Volt gets no better than 43 mpg in pure generator mode (combined hwy/city).
    The small amount of recaptured energy from regen braking, cannot make up for lugging around the extra battery, motors, inverter, and generator.

    I never said what stock I was willing to wager, but I have plenty of losers to hand over.


  19. 19
    Nelson

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:53 am)

    The Almighty “Dollar”, “Euro”, “Yen”, “Rouble”, “Rupee” & “Franc” have spoken.
    And auto manufacturers are listening.

    NPNS!


  20. 20
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:29 am)

    Just as there are college kids who have never known a world without a space shuttle, there will be a day when the same is true about electric cars.


  21. 21
    DaV8or

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:31 am)

    So it works internationally too. Promise an electric vehicle with fantastic performance claims and get bailout money! Works like a charm.


  22. 22
    Scotty

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:41 am)

    I wish they would go directly with a straight BEV. AN E-REV represents an inability to break with the past completely and go forward with new technology. By clinging to that ICE engine they are showing their lack of vision. Plus all the complexity, weight, space, and cost of the ICE….


  23. 23
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:43 am)

    They can’t call it “PowerCat”, that’s already used on boats.


  24. 24
    zipdrive

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:45 am)

  25. 25
    NZDavid

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:57 am)

    DaV8or says: So it works internationally too. Promise an electric vehicle with fantastic performance claims and get bailout money! Works like a charm.

    Unbelievable really. If you had told me a year ago this would be happening, I would have wondered what you were smoking!

    Statik@11 and nasaman@10
    I too had fun watching a friends kids hunting for eggs.


  26. 26
    PLJ

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:01 am)

    To Scotty @22 who says; I wish they would go directly with a straight BEV. AN E-REV represents an inability to break with the past completely and go forward with new technology. By clinging to that ICE engine they are showing their lack of vision. Plus all the complexity, weight, space, and cost of the ICE….
    ————————-

    Scotty, we simply do not have the technology or the infrastructure to make that jump.

    Until we can pull up to any “filling” station anywhere and charge our batteries in the same time it takes to fill up a tank of gas, the BEV route is a non-starter for the vast majority of drivers. (Some of you will rail against my opinion here but you are the minority who WILL be able to use a BEV).

    Trying to achieve a 100% no-oil solution will just stall the whole electric car movement.

    An EREV can be a full-time, go-anywhere vehicle just like our current cars. For now, any BEV will have to be a part-time “extra” car, or a toy that you keep in your garage next to you REAL car that you can drive anywhere, anytime, with no worries about running out of juice, whether it is gas or EREV.


  27. 27
    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:02 am)

    Happy Easter all.
    Be well,
    Tag


  28. 28
    kent beuchert

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:09 am)

    Obviously two considerations in the decision – 1) cost of batteries and 2) ability to build a range extended vehicle in a reasonable amount of time (or ever). Tesla wanted to, and announced they would, then apparently realized that it was out of there capabilities (actually tesla doesn’t design much of anything – they pay others to do that). Elon Musk can be counted on to propagandize any decision they make. He of big mouth, small brain, no ethics.


  29. 29
    Dan Petit

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:12 am)

    It’s taken a seemingly long time for more OEM boards of directors to recognize the wisdom in doing EREV propulsion, but, it’s really a relief that it is catching on. To me, in part, the relief comes from the strong concern that the lack of redundancy for BEV may cause very unfeasible repair bills once they are out of warranties.
    Wear is the product of load times time. The far longer your BEV must stay on a charger due to very long drives without recharging, (skipping one or more overnight “top-offs” because you believe that you can) the more higher-temperature-time those chargers and other electronics must work at one stretch of time when you finally do plug it in.
    When I very strongly challenge BEV OEM’s regarding this, it is simply an advisory and a caution for them to strongly overbuild their electronics by a factor of at least 2.5 of the maximum current loading, and, heat loading/cooling for hotter climates such as here in Texas. A Texas garage can easily hit 130 degrees in Summer.
    The further you need to go in a BEV (discharging the battery array), the more critical it is for those OEM’s to overbuild electronics by several factors for acceptable MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure).
    When I strongly challenge ANY other kind of industry regarding energy, it is sincerely and humbly based on a desire to cause them to NOT assume there is not an unacceptable risk in a particular investment direction (to possibly a catastrophic loss to their investors). (I am not an adversary, I strive to only caution to help prevent loss of any kind, an I ask that that be accepted.)
    This is because technologies have advanced so fast and far, and that it is nearly impossible for even somewhat-technical members of boards of directors to fully understand the consequences of not only a highly significant change, BUT,
    *********************************************************************************************************
    IN MANY CASES, THAT A PARTICULAR CHANGE DESTROYS THEIR PRODUCT.
    *********************************************************************************************************
    They are uncomfortably-caught between their “image maintenance” and their technical responsibilities to produce or maintain product standards. If even those standards (MTBF) DO indeed exist in the first place for our evolution to green electric motoring, increasingly, technical responsibilities which they (board members) can even have “full information on” for them to even fully fathom, business/investment risks, technologies have advanced far beyond 99 percent of people’s capacities to absorb the learning of them.
    (Interestingly, for my Auto Service Techs, once I show them that downloaded picture of the Voltec chassis components, their eyes get really big, and they rivet visually onto that picture as I mention that this is where our work will be headed in about 5 to 8 years.)

    Patent and Trade Laws are the things that force the different OEM’s to produce as much technical and descriptive differences as are possible, so that they do not become exposed to lawsuits.
    While this is supposed to keep design and invention efforts feasible for Return on Investment, The Patent and Trade Laws also have the other effect that no matter who owns the patent, if you didn’t invent it, your production costs to license someone else’s patent can become cost-prohibitive.
    Engines have run generators since Edison’s “Ten Light” (for letting construction crews work at night, and was a one kilowatt generator).
    Patent-wise, there is apparently very little to stop the larger manufacturers from planning EREV vehicles, excepting for the very long changeover processes required for them to evolve their own departments efficiently.
    (Give them all generous time to do it reliably and economically, and, within their own technical comfort levels).
    I’d be just glad and impressed that they would say that they’ll be able to do it “someday”.
    Happy Easter everyone.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.


  30. 30
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:13 am)

    PLJ,

    Well put!


  31. 31
    George K

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:20 am)

    #17 CDAVIS
    ““…More done than made public but sorry its hush on detials. Can say Tata plans to walk away with Auto X Prize and use it as cornerstone marketing for eNano very big push.”
    - – - – -

    Reminds me of a movie about a salesman who just closed a big deal with a company, and he went out and bought a huge RV camper. Unfortunately, the deal fell through and the company never paid the money… No sale, no commission!

    If Tata Motors thinks they are a shoe in for the X Prize, then GM should be in line ahead of them, since the Volt will be out in 2010?

    Still, this is an endorsement for Voltec.

    Happy Easter everyone.

    =D~~~~


  32. 32
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:23 am)

    #11 Statik
    “4,400 pound Jag that gets 57 MPG ICE and performs like a Jag? I call shenanigans.”
    —————————————
    #18 JEC said:

    Agreed.

    No way you get numbers like these, assuming the Volt estimates are even close. Getting 50mpg in generator mode with the Volt, in my opinion, is not going to happen. I would be willing to lay down some of my stock, on a wager, that the Volt gets no better than 43 mpg in pure generator mode (combined hwy/city).
    The small amount of recaptured energy from regen braking, cannot make up for lugging around the extra battery, motors, inverter, and generator.

    I never said what stock I was willing to wager, but I have plenty of losers to hand over.
    ==========================
    ==========================
    I wouldn’t take that bet, I am pencilling in very low 40s for the Volt on the ICE as well.

    It should be noted that when the 50MPG was touted as a reality that it was based off the ‘new hotness’ 3 cyclinder -AND- the assumption of a impovement over the Cruze that itself was achieving its own low 40s MPG.

    Well, the Cruze with the same replacement 4 banger engine has been tested/rated in the UK (as it goes on sale in less than 4 months) and it only gets 35MPG. (euro cycle–which is actually more leaniant that the new US cycle)

    One could still ‘attempt’ to argue better efficiency for sure in the series set-up, but that is a whopping 45% bump, then you also have to account for 600 pounds more of dead battery (and related components) being hauled around when the ICE is on.

    I don’t see how you get past even using the ‘old math’ on the new reality:
    OLD-Cruze 3 banger 40-42 MPG = Volt 50 (about 22% better)
    NEW-Cruze 4 banger 34-35 MPG = Volt 42-43 MPG (using same 22%)

    The old 50 MPG I thought was very, very optimisitic (and totally unverifiable), but how can you hold the line on the estimate now?

    The old press (July 2008):
    “2010 Chevy Cruze to get 45 MPG, Fight Prius with One powertrain”
    http://jalopnik.com/398768/2010-chevy-cruze-to-get-45-mpg-fight-prius-with-one-powertrain

    The new press (March 2009):
    “The gasoline options include a 113-hp 1.6L and a 141-hp 1.8L. Both return a fuel-economy of 42 mpg (35 mpg U.S.). ”
    http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/03/10/2009-chevrolet-cruze-uk-pricing-released-goes-on-sale-in-july/


  33. 33
    RB

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (12:00 pm)

    #32 statik says “. I am pencilling in very low 40s for the Volt on the ICE as well.” but later on for the Cruze “.return a fuel-economy of 42 mpg (35 mpg U.S.). ”
    =============================

    My guess in ICE mode is that Volt will be very nearly the same as Cruze. At higher speeds Volt will be a little less (same engine with more weight). At lower speeds Volt will be heavier but have more regen and perhaps be able to operate the ICE slightly more efficiently, with the positives and negatives likely offsetting. So the two are going to come out about the same.

    The advantage of the Volt will be plug-in. Beyond that it will be fortunate to do no worse than Cruze, because it is heavier. (Basic physics is hard to overcome.)


  34. 34
    DonC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (12:07 pm)

    #9 nasaman – The IP is a very big issue, and a major reason why Steven Moore’s WSJ op-ed was so brain dead — it missed the huge benefits a company gets from its IP licensing if it pioneers in a new field. I think I read somewhere that Toyota has over a thousand patents related to its split power system, and obviously it is getting royalties from other manufacturers such as Ford.

    Also note this is something statik misses by focusing exclusively on the sale and production of vehicles. IP makes money even if you’re not selling any end product. For example, if you evaluate Qualcomm on the number of chips its selling it’s in huge trouble. But it actually makes money when everyone else sells chips so it’s not a significant issue.

    With all this talk of splitting GM into a “good GM” and a “bad GM” I’m surprised that we haven’t seen the suggestion of splitting IP licensing from manufacturing. That may be because the IP has already been used as collateral for secured creditors.

    Statik & JEC

    Since the ICE would be using average power a SWAG might be that you’d about the same mpg as you would have under the old, not the revised, “Highway” test.


  35. 35
    George K

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (12:52 pm)

    #32 Statik
    “I don’t see how you get past even using the ‘old math’ on the new reality:
    OLD-Cruze 3 banger 40-42 MPG = Volt 50 (about 22% better)
    NEW-Cruze 4 banger 34-35 MPG = Volt 42-43 MPG (using same 22%)”
    - – - – - -

    I agree. In fact I said the same thing last year. If you look at the current Prius, 46 mpg combined. That is driving the way the car was designed to optimally operate, that is, of gas with (small, optimally sized) battery assist (yes, there isn’t a non-optimal mode).

    With the Volt, however, we are talking about the non-optimal mode, of gas with (large and heavy) battery assist, and not the most optimal mode for the Volt.

    Volt acceleration in this mode, will be very hard on mpg. However, I believe light acceleration (or right lane driving style), should provide much better mpg acceleration, as the battery (partially charged from braking) will aid with “free” horsepower.

    By the way, the 2010 Prius does have combined mpg of 50. And, somehow, have reduced the power and weight of the electric motor. This, I expect GM to do with the Volt as well, in future refinements.

    But, for now, I’d agree with Statik and guess mid to low 40′s. If this is the case, GM should provide it sooner rather than later, to avoid a lot of unnecessary disappointment close to launch.

    =D~~~~


  36. 36
    nasaman

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (12:57 pm)

    34 DonC……. I agree with everything you say! For anyone wondering, “IP” here does NOT mean internet protocol (or provider) —it means “intellectual property”, including all patents.


  37. 37
    Frank B

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (1:00 pm)

    I wonder that jerk at the Wall Street Journal has to say about this news. He has no idea that the country and the world understand and know that we have to move away from oil. So does he think all these companies are building an Edsel?

    It is great news to see all these companies jumping on the wagon. Is there a car company out there who is not working on an electric?


  38. 38
    Joe

     

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    Joe
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    Apr 12th, 2009 (1:09 pm)

    Happy Easter to all!!


  39. 39
    CS Guy

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (1:42 pm)

    The best Easter present for us all; another electric car. This one will bring an added touch of class to the segment (along with the Tesla and Fisker, of course).

    It is inevitable. All cars will be electric within 15 to 20 years. This has been long overdue. We should have been off oil in 1990 so we’re late getting to where we should be but better late than never.


  40. 40
    Vincent

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (2:32 pm)

    Happy Easter Friends.


  41. 41
    ccombs

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (2:33 pm)

    I love the bandwagon effect. Sure Jag is promising more than they can deliver, but at least everyone is starting to look like they actually might be serious about electrification.


  42. 42
    newbie

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (2:33 pm)

    now theres a lot of EDSELS wanna bes wants to be on the same boat, thanks to that stupid wallstreet guy… i hope Lyle would ask that Moron wallstreet guy again what he thinks…


  43. 43
    Michael Robinson

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (3:20 pm)

    The only electric car that makes sense is a hydrogen fuel cell car.
    Only hydrogen fuel cell cars use 0 Oil and produce 0 emissions.
    E-REV’s aren’t cheaper than what fuel cell cars will probably sell
    for when they are commercialized and there is little to no evidence
    that E-REVs will be sufficiently profitable.

    Hydrogen is the only domestically produceable fuel that doesn’t have to come from a fossil fuel and hydrogen is non polluting.

    We need to get serious about hydrogen.

    http://xerxes.robinson-west.com/michael/hydrogen

    Yes to cellulosic ethanol.

    Yes to nuclear to hydrogen.

    Yes to the copper chlorine cycle to produce hydrogen.

    Yes to hydrogen from wind driven electrolysis.

    Yes to hydrogen from solar power driven electrolysis.

    Yes to solar cracking of water.

    Yes to biofuels derived from the algae grown off of the carbon
    dioxide emitted by coal plants.


  44. 44
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (3:48 pm)

    #43 Michael Robinson:

    …your like my nightmare


  45. 45
    Zach

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:01 pm)

    WOWOWO! I honestly always thought Jaguar’s were ugly as hell, but this is BEAUTIFUL! VERY sleek!

    I’m guessing $140,000.

    LMAO @ #44 Statik


  46. 46
    unni

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:01 pm)

    Still i think in different boat : Volt will give a 120 mpg in extended range and 40 mile on electric. To if you drive the car with one gallon of gas and fully charged battery it should go 160 mile. Its all about power electronics and power distribution because there is no point in your ICE car you use the full power and efficiency of your ICE engine.

    All hybrid technologies are tying to achieve the same ( Run ICE on its max efficiency and compliment the other scenarios /support by electric motor ) whether its HSD,Integrated Motor Assist, start stop , even 2 mode system or EREV .

    Volt approach gets advantage because ICE is used only in one range and on software and power electronics, we have better control.

    Reasons for the belief on 120 mg is

    1) The serial hybrid bus claims 3 times less fuel conception than regular.
    2) Jaguar claims 57 mpg.

    So if above holds true, volt should be a 120 mile range car.

    Another reason is, there is big differences between BritishEuropean, American, work styles.

    British/Europeans always looks for perfection in product or work.

    Americans looks for bulk and fast production and marketing (mostly market driven on heights and never prepared for falls – they use bankruptcy at fall times ). They are good in trying out of the box innovations and business but no maintenance of quality – they outsource the quality work.

    Live example is GM’s need of Opel for engineering and car development and they had to import people form Opel to work on Volt.

    Mostly i think Jaguar claims should be true because mostly they make claims only after proper theory work ( if American startup claims , i have less belief because its mostly untrue or its just for business sake ( ex: EEStor : claims are there but no product )

    Once volt is out, then Japanese, Koreans and Chinese will start quality improvements on serial hybrids and again GM may have to innovate out of the box or change the American paradigm for in box innovations and improvements on product and quality.


  47. 47
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    I fear Hydrogen. Please stop talking about it…


  48. 48
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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:20 pm)

    46 Uni
    “Volt will give a 120 mpg in extended range and 40 mile on electric. To if you drive the car with one gallon of gas and fully charged battery it should go 160 mile.”
    ====================================================
    120 miles on a gallon of gas! Imperial or US gallon, will not make a difference. I only hope your not driving in a bad neighborhood when that gallon of gas runs dry.

    Now, if you happen to find a hill that is about 80 miles long, you are probably ok, as long as your on the top.

    After that you kinda lost me, sorry.


  49. 49
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:27 pm)

    #46 unni said:

    Still i think in different boat : Volt will give a 120 mpg in extended range and 40 mile on electric. To if you drive the car with one gallon of gas and fully charged battery it should go 160 mile. Its all about power electronics and power distribution because there is no point in your ICE car you use the full power and efficiency of your ICE engine.

    Reasons for the belief on 120 mg is

    1) The serial hybrid bus claims 3 times less fuel conception than regular.
    2) Jaguar claims 57 mpg.

    So if above holds true, volt should be a 120 mile range car.
    ========================

    What? You totally lost me. I think maybe you got confused somewhere.

    Optimally, the Volt is 40 miles AER, and another 50 on a gallon of gas. The 50 MPG on ICE is allowing for the ‘sweet spot’ of efficiency of the engine being maximized at all times by being a generator for electric propulsion. That is the beauty of the series setup.

    Otherwise, and without that, in a traditional setup it is just a underpowered 4 banger struggling to drag around a 3,500+ pound car…which would be getting you maybe 28 MPG and some really awful performance.


  50. 50
    Buzzed at the Masters

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:31 pm)

    Nice to see more vendors jumping on the Obama-approved Volt drive train. Yes, since Big Oil left the Whitehouse, make no mistake that the Volt will always be linked to Obama. Without President Obama’s approval the Volt would be dead in the water (aka Saturn).

    To all the GM gearheads out there: Obama owns your sorry butts.


  51. 51
    Wassup Dawgs

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:46 pm)

    Timeline:

    - Obama orders GM to shutdown Saturn

    - Obama orders GM to get rid of Hummer

    - Obama orders Wagoner removed from GM premises

    - Obama orders Volt production to continue

    - Obama orders waterdog for kids

    - Obama orders Navy Seals to rescue American captain at sea

    - Obama orders GM “managed bankruptcy” (oh yeah, its coming)

    Make no mistake about who is in charge here !


  52. 52
    Miguel

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (4:52 pm)

    #43 Michael Robinson

    Hydrogen is the fuel source of the perpetual future. Why? The cost of producing the fuel does not return sufficient benefits vs. a battery electric (+ optional range extender) drive train.

    Joe Romm, the author of The Hype about Hydrogen: Fact and Fiction in the Race to Save the Climate (2004), summed it up best on his blog when he commented on a NY Times review of the Honda FCX Clarity:

    http://climateprogress.org/2008/06/19/hydrogen-fuel-cell-honda-fcx-clarity-problems/

    “Most egregious: where, exactly, does the Times think hydrogen comes from? Santa Claus? More than 95 percent of U.S. hydrogen is made from natural gas, so running a car on hydrogen doesn’t reduce net carbon dioxide emissions compared with a hybrid like the Prius running on gasoline. Okay, you say, can’t hydrogen be made from carbon-free sources of power, like wind energy or nuclear? Sure, but so can electricity for electric cars. And this gets to the heart of why hydrogen cars would be the last car you would ever want to buy: they are wildly inefficient compared with electric cars.

    Electric cars–and plug-in hybrid cars–have an enormous advantage over hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles in utilizing low-carbon electricity. That is because of the inherent inefficiency of the entire hydrogen fueling process, from generating the hydrogen with that electricity to transporting this diffuse gas long distances, getting the hydrogen in the car, and then running it through a fuel cell–all for the purpose of converting the hydrogen back into electricity to drive the same exact electric motor you’ll find in an electric car.

    The total power-plant-to-wheels efficiency with which a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle is likely to utilize low-carbon electricity is 20 to 25 percent–and the process requires purchasing several expensive pieces of hardware, including the electrolyzer and delivery infrastructure. The total efficiency of simply charging an onboard battery with the original low-carbon electricity, and then discharging the battery to run the electric motor in an electric car or plug-in, however, is 75 to 80 percent. That is, an electric car will travel three to four times farther on a kilowatt-hour of renewable or nuclear power than a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle will.”


  53. 53
    jeffhre

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:05 pm)

    JEC “I fear Hydrogen. Please stop talking about it…”

    I fear hydrogen will be much too expensive. Otherwise I’m OK with it. I just won’t be using it.

    When they start to talk about liquefying hydrogen, I’m out. Outta the car, outta the refueling area out of the neighborhood, out, no way, no how, just out – period.


  54. 54
    unni

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:09 pm)

    JEC, statik

    check http://www.e-traction.nl/content_wheel_buses.html

    “An identical bus powered by the e-Traction® System will use only one third of the fuel (15,000 liters) and thus reduces harmful emissions minimally by 66.7%. ”

    They say the numbers are certified : TNO, a leading Dutch research institute, certifies the fuel consumption of e-Traction® Bus after a city bus test scheme. Certificate is available on request

    If a Bus can make 3 times, what about a car (volt) ? same /similar technology.


  55. 55
    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:25 pm)

    You guys should give Michael Robinson some space. I’m not a hydrogen fan because I hear fuel cells are prohibitively expensive and may remain so. I hear that it is inefficient to separate hydrogen from water and then use it to power an electric car – just use the electricity instead. Right – ok. But this presumes the presumed battery technologies we hope for will be achieved.
    Hydrogen separation is a means of storing energy even if it is inefficient. Let’s say due to present greenwave hysteria, we build massively redundant generating facilities(solar and windmills) when we should be building localized nuclear plants. Someday we may have a lot of extra capacity that could be used for solar and windmill electrolysis rather than sit idle. Or maybe we will have great, massive batteries to suck up all the available production from these facilities whenever they can function, to maximize the return on the capital investment in them. Who can say? Time will tell.
    I think he has some salient points and we might very well do hydrogen if we need to and this may especially be so if batteries don’t pan out so well.
    Give the guy a little room please. And electrolysis can be done anywhere there is water and electricity so you don’t really need a big pipeline system.And haven’t we read about some research with Aluminum to catalyze H from water? Maybe something like that will occur. I’m sure I don’t know and I’m pretty darn sure you don’t know either, even if you are Albert Freaking Einstein and yes I’m talking to you.God bless you and Happy Easter.


  56. 56
    Scotty

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:41 pm)

    #26 PLJ
    “Scotty, we simply do not have the technology or the infrastructure to make that jump. ”

    Who needs infrastructure? I already have a plug socket in my garage. Like most Americans, I live in a large metro area where I could drive a BEV every day and never worry about running out of range. Especially with the 200+ ranges coming out on cars like Tesla. If I need to travel interstate, I usually fly or could take my ICE car.

    Surely Tesla isn’t the only car maker smart enough to tap the huge market of people who want a BEV as their second family car.


  57. 57
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:46 pm)

    54 Uni,

    Thanks for the e-Traction link.

    This is a very different application, in that this is being installed in busses. This is an excellent application of using the battery to recapture energy while braking.

    While this uses batteries and motors, that bus will only run a very slow speed on pure electric.

    Since a bus is always stopping and going, and usually running near low speed, this is an excellent application. They are claiming that they can increase fuel efficiency from the 3.5 MPG to 10.5 MPG, mainly due to recapture of nearly 70% of regen braking.

    I still doubt the Volt will be able to perform any better than the low 40 mpg.

    Not quite the same scenario as the Volt, but it is very impressive. Thanks again for the link.


  58. 58
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (5:57 pm)

    #55 Shawn Marshall said:

    You guys should give Michael Robinson some space. I’m not a hydrogen fan because I hear fuel cells are prohibitively expensive and may remain so. I hear that it is inefficient to separate hydrogen from water and then use it to power an electric car – just use the electricity instead. Right – ok. But this presumes the presumed battery technologies we hope for will be achieved.
    Hydrogen separation is a means of storing energy even if it is inefficient. Let’s say due to present greenwave hysteria, we build massively redundant generating facilities(solar and windmills) when we should be building localized nuclear plants. Someday we may have a lot of extra capacity that could be used for solar and windmill electrolysis rather than sit idle. Or maybe we will have great, massive batteries to suck up all the available production from these facilities whenever they can function, to maximize the return on the capital investment in them. Who can say? Time will tell.
    I think he has some salient points and we might very well do hydrogen if we need to and this may especially be so if batteries don’t pan out so well.
    Give the guy a little room please. And electrolysis can be done anywhere there is water and electricity so you don’t really need a big pipeline system.And haven’t we read about some research with Aluminum to catalyze H from water? Maybe something like that will occur. I’m sure I don’t know and I’m pretty darn sure you don’t know either, even if you are Albert Freaking Einstein and yes I’m talking to you.God bless you and Happy Easter.

    ==========================
    It isn’t really about whether his position is right or wrong (…even though the majority of us probably think it is)

    …its more about how he has uni-bombed/hijacked like 8 of the last 10 threads with a big production on h****** that really has nothing to do with the topic thread, or even in response to any comment specifically…like today.

    It is like a big eagle just randomly swoops down on our heads everyday, when we are innocently going about our business.

    /I actually find it a little amusing…like a comic relief moment


  59. 59
    popurls.com // popular today

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:19 pm)

    popurls.com // popular today…

    story has entered the popular today section on popurls.com…


  60. 60
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:27 pm)

    Uni

    I meant to include this is in my previous post, but I forgot. Anyway, I am huge proponent of using hybrid technology in areas such as buses, but also applications such as garbage trucks, or other similar applications (local mail carriers, newspaper delivery, etc).

    These types of applications (lots of mass and lots of stop-n-go) that can be greatly improved with regen energy capture. A large percentage of the time these vehicles are either stopped or stopping. No need to burn fuel to run things like the hydraulics for the garbage truck, just use electric motors, and shutdown the ICE when stopped.

    If you want the biggest bang for the buck, this is where electrics really shine!


  61. 61
    JEC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:51 pm)

    Ok, Riddle me this Batman….

    In order to provide a more accurate prediction of what kind of MPG the Volt will get when running with batteries in depletion mode, I thinks me needs a little info. So, can anyone answer these questions?

    1) What is the average efficiency you get with an ICE (use the Cruze ICE as an example). This would be over the entire speed range of the ICE.

    2) What is the average efficiency of the ICE, running the generator on the Volt. The generator will supposedly, allow running the ICE in its sweet spot, which should increase the average efficiency.

    3) I would guess the efficiency of converting the electrical to mechanical will be about 85-90%. This would include the energy lost by the inverter section and the motor efficiency. Anyone have a better estimate?

    4) What is the percent of energy that can be recaptured during braking?

    So, once we know this, we can predict with pretty good certainty, what the mpg of the Volt, running in depletion mode, will be.


  62. 62
    charlie h

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:57 pm)

    I find it significant that the two companies with the commercially successful gas-electric vehicles are both avoiding RE-EVs.

    Who’s in the best position to know what’s going to work, sell well and be commercially successful?


  63. 63
    BillR

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (6:59 pm)

    First, something on topic.

    I believe GM has decided to build E-REV not only to alleviate “range anxiety”, but also to keep the battery pack in its sweet spot, so to maintain its life.

    We all know that GM learned a lot from the EV1 program. Here is some info that might be interesting:

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/ev1_criticism.php

    I remember reading probably 10 years ago that GM wasn’t comfortable with the EV1 because they couldn’t make the batteries reliably last for the lifetime of the vehicle. And customers would not be happy if, for instance, at 60k they had to spend $10 to $20k on a new battery pack. This is one of the prime reasons GM did not pursue EV’s, IMHO.

    Now, with new battery technology (Li-Ion), a cooling/heating system, battery management software to keep the charge between 80 and 30% SOC, GM feels that they can supply a reliable battery pack that will last for 10 years, 150,000 miles. The ICE is an essential part of this scheme, warming the battery in extreme cold, and providing power when the battery SOC is at its minimum.

    Although there will be many BEV’s introduced over the next several years, the true fear is not range anxiety for me, but the $15k? battery replacement fee at ~60,000 miles.

    So for those who don’t need a range extender, and live in temperate climates that aren’t too hot or too cold, a BEV may work. But for many others, without a comprehensive battery warranty, you may see your investment take a considerable hit once that battery can’t get you to go faster than 25 mph and the AER reduces to 15 miles.


  64. 64
    Anthony BC

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:06 pm)

    More Hydrogen talk, please!

    GO JAG! The more options, the more choices… BEV, RE-EV, etc.

    GO EV!


  65. 65
    Tex-Arl

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:13 pm)

    In this discussion, there’s really only two questions———-
    Do you live where you can tolerate a Bev or
    Do you live where range anxiety prevents using a Bev.

    If you live where 60 to 100 miles per trip is not unusual, there is no way I would put my wife in a 120 mile battery vehicle.


  66. 66
    BillR

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:20 pm)

    Regarding the hydrogen discussion, I think #52 Miguel and #55 Shawn Marshall bring up some good points.

    Although it is less efficient to use hydrogen in lieu of direct electrical storage in batteries, I can see two scenarios where hydrogen might become mainstream.

    1) It is deemed that global warming has hit a “tipping point”, and all efforts must be made to reduce CO2 emissions. Legislation could heavily tax or almost forbid the use of fossil fuels. The alternative is make hydrogen from nuclear, renewables, and also from fossil fuels in which CO2 from the production process is captured and sequestered. Electric cars are still employed, however, long range transport and aircraft would need to use hydrogen (unless “super” batteries are developed).

    2) Far into the future we will deplete all the coal, oil, and natural gas. Hydrogen will be the likely fuel of the future.


  67. 67
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    Apr 12th, 2009 (7:36 pm)

    The consensus has nailed thread pretty well, IMO. Great to have another EV/EREV announcement. The specs and timeframe sure appear overly optimistic. Perhaps the are planning a diesel for the ICE to get the 58mpg. I’m skeptically hopeful an EREV Jag delivers in 2012.


  68. 68
    unni

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:00 pm)

    JEC : one more question is there :

    The electric energy need for different driving conditions and regenerative capacity on those conditions.

    like : Merge to high way
    : Up hill
    : Normal highway drive
    : Normal city drive
    : Up hill city drive
    : City drive
    : Up hill highway etc etc ( basically all different driving conditions)

    because you don’t need all generated power by generator at all times and can change the power output of a generator by changing the rpm. The extra energy at any point can be stored in the battery and drawn only the required power for the specific condition.

    This may be why GM says they will have software updates for volt because currently they may have a power requirement matrix developed from their test conditions and as volt comes in production they may get more from the real life data and optimize more.

    And there is a lot on implementation also.The mild hybrid implementation from benz gave 80% improvement in fuel efficiency ( its on diesel engine ). i wonder how much it will be with improve when they have strong hybrid implementation.


  69. 69
    BillR

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (8:04 pm)

    Timeline:

    - Obama orders GM to shutdown Saturn

    Looks like this was planned before inauguration day.

    http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/090112-GM-Plans-to-Eliminate-Saturn-Saab-Hummer-Shrink-Pontiac/

    - Obama orders GM to get rid of Hummer

    Actually, Hummer was for sale last year.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aaUaK7ZYogGE&refer=home

    - Obama orders Wagoner removed from GM premises

    Wagoner resigns since he feels it is in the best interest of GM. “The Obama administration used the threat of withholding more bailout money to force out General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Rick Wagoner.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123836090755767077.html

    - Obama orders Volt production to continue

    Had Volt production stopped?

    - Obama orders waterdog for kids

    The only true order in the list

    - Obama orders Navy Seals to rescue American captain at sea

    The operation was conducted totally by the military, with a split-second decision from the field commanders. The White House had given “very clear guidance and authority” (no orders)

    http://my.earthlink.net/article/pol?guid=20090412/49e16740_3ca6_1552620090412-1724707665

    - Obama orders GM “managed bankruptcy” (oh yeah, its coming)

    We’re waiting……..

    Make no mistake about who is in charge here !

    No mistake here, it’s Nancy and Hillary (and your special friend, Barney Frank)!


  70. 70
    ThombDbhomb

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (9:01 pm)

    No “jag off” comments?


  71. 71
    koz

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:41 pm)

    RB, Statik, DonC, BillR, etc

    I’m so happy this thread has veered toward the technical. There is still a fair amount of misconception about the ICE and how it will be incorporated into the Volt. As you guys are aware but other posters don’t seem to be, the ICE has no role in directly transferring energy to the wheels. The ICE is only there to generate electricity via the generator that could be used to power the traction motor, charge the batteries, or some combination of both. This allows the ICE to be decoupled from immediate power demands of the vehicle. JEC is exactly correct in asserting we don’t have enough info to give informed predictions about the Volt’s gen mode gas mileage. I’m sure the engineer’s on the design team have an accurate idea of what this mileage will be, and they have since before the switch to the 4-cylinder engine. There must have been some mpg hit or they would lead with that as their primary reason for the switch, but I doubt it was a big hit. It would be interesting to here what the differential was.

    If you want to hazard a guess at the Volt’s performance, I suggest calculating off of the Prius’ performance. The power demands are much more similar with the Prius than any other vehicle. In fact, the Volt is in a favorable position to the Prius in this respect. Of course the Volt is at an efficiency disadvantage at constant loads at or near peak efficiency, such as highway driving. Thus, I believe we can expect the Volt’s highway rated mpg to be about 9% less than the Prius’. There are a lot of little undisclosed engineering details that can move this performance a few points in either direction. The same reasoning swings performance in the favor of the Volt for city mpg rating. This is a bit more complex to analyze. You could take the city rating for the Prius and calculate the total energy efficiency (kwh useful/kwh available from gas). The Volt’s ICE will be burning at optimal efficiency all of the time. Assuming GM uses an Atkinson cycle, and why wouldn’t they, the max ICE efficiency will be about 34% (http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-petrol-engine). Also assuming the balance of efficiency differences between the 2 cars result in a net differential favoring the Prius of about 13% (mostly from weight differential and ice-generator-pem-motor vs transmision differential). Someone else can look up gasoline’s energy content and do the math. I’m guessing the city mph works out about 5-10% better for the Volt given these assumptions. This would make the combined mpg very similar for the two vehicles.

    The Volt should noticably better fuel economy than the Prius under extreme driving conditions: hard accelerations, hard braking, fast highway speeds. This is because the Volt will have more regen capacity and will keep the ICE near optimum efficiency at all times while it is running.


  72. 72
    DocM

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (10:53 pm)

    #6: statik Says:
    April 12th, 2009 at 7:53 am

    The problem with this ‘future car’ is the same as GM. There is no way for Tata to get there.
    ========================
    Not so.

    Notice in the Autocar article that Jaguar will be collaborating with Lotus, a division of Proton and they already have both EV and E-REV tech and will be producing a car called the Detroit Electric, initially in their Malaysian factory – a very modern factory. For sale in Europe, the US, China etc. etc. starting in 2010.

    From the images on the Detroit Electric site the battery looks very much like it’s made up of A123 modules, and A123 is building a massive $2 billion cell/battery plant here in Michigan.

    If Jaguar does likewise (and why wouldn’t they use the same packs?) then they are indeed capable of getting “there”. So is GM since while they have selected LG Chem for initial production A123 is still in the hunt for 2012 and beyond.

    IMO GM is looking at LG Chem as the short range solution (already capable of large scale production) and is keeping A123 as a long term option in case that huge battery plants economics (being in Michigan so <shipping costs etc.) work out.


  73. 73
    statik

     

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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:24 pm)

    #6: statik Says:
    April 12th, 2009 at 7:53 am

    The problem with this ‘future car’ is the same as GM. There is no way for Tata to get there.
    ========================
    #72 DocM said:

    Not so.

    Notice in the Autocar article that Jaguar will be collaborating with Lotus, a division of Proton and they already have both EV and E-REV tech and will be producing a car called the Detroit Electric, initially in their Malaysian factory – a very modern factory. For sale in Europe, the US, China etc. etc. starting in 2010.

    From the images on the Detroit Electric site the battery looks very much like it’s made up of A123 modules, and A123 is building a massive $2 billion cell/battery plant here in Michigan.

    If Jaguar does likewise (and why wouldn’t they use the same packs?) then they are indeed capable of getting “there”. So is GM since while they have selected LG Chem for initial production A123 is still in the hunt for 2012 and beyond.

    IMO GM is looking at LG Chem as the short range solution (already capable of large scale production) and is keeping A123 as a long term option in case that huge battery plants economics (being in Michigan so <shipping costs etc.) work out.
    ========================

    I think you are taking it as I meant they don’t have the ability to get there. I meant fiscally they can’t get there.

    …as in Tata owes 2 billion on a note in June they have yet to be able to get refinanced, and no reasonable way to make current operations operate in the black
    …as in GM runs out of money (again) by the months end, look for a new request for ‘working capital’ this week

    The only way for either of them to ‘get there’ is with massive government funding or 3rd party financing or venture capital.

    I’m quite confident either GM or Tata can actaully produce a E-rev with endless bags of government cash (in GM’s case probably 50 billion to get there, 7-10 for Tata to get there)

    …as a corollary, I’m pretty sure I could churn out a electric car or two pretty quick with a few billion, as could you.

    There is no shortage of qualified, unemployed engineers with R&D experience out there right now…GM let go of over 500 of them just last month out of Warren, lol. And there is a half dozen US battery makers that are just waiting for a signed, quantifiable contract or a bag of money to build a supplier a factory to make packs.

    The issue is not ‘can they, and how quickly?’ It is…
    A) how deep are their pockets
    -and-
    B) how deep does their conviction run


  74. 74
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    Apr 12th, 2009 (11:40 pm)

    Hi DocM, Tata is already selling/almost ready to sell electric indica in Norway.

    They already demonstrated how to bring a brand to top quality in JD power survey for quality ( remember – it was owned by ford and they never was able to make it ). They managed to get attention of all world with Nano.

    http://www.electrovaya.com/ is already supplying batteries for Tata. Most time i think people underestimates companies from east. I am sure BYD will be there at time volt will be out. Take it in right sense, than thinking they don’t make, The same people were thinking in 1970s+ and japs and koreans already proved it.

    There is licensing and lot of startups are in game.


  75. 75
    Arch

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (12:23 am)

    You got to love it if they can pull it off. We should know by April 20 th.

    http://www.motorauthority.com/raser-technologies-working-on-100mpg-hummer-h2-plug-in-hybrid.html

    Take Care
    Arch


  76. 76
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    Apr 13th, 2009 (1:06 am)

    SAE should be real interesting this year :)

    Raser also has a fleet 140 mpg Dodge Ram pickup truck that they say can provide 100kw of on-site power for construction etc. IRRC they’ve sold 2 of them to a utility somewhere with options for more.


  77. 77
    Director web

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (1:20 am)

    More information about this topic!


  78. 78
    Michael Robinson

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (2:15 am)

    The batteries are not going to pan out, period. Hydrogen is not
    dangerous at all, especially if you get it from a benign hydrogen
    carrier like hydrnol or magnesium hydride slurry.

    Lithium ION has been developed as far as it can go probably.
    The batteries that are supposed to last 10 years will probably
    last 5-7 years, and yes I’m talking about the Volt too.

    Show me one shred of evidence that a battery is going to hold
    enough energy for long enough over enough recharges to
    justify abandoning hydrogen.

    I seriously doubt that anyone on here can prove that batteries
    are going to get cheaper, more energy dense, and more durable
    to the point that battery electric cars make more sense than fuel
    cell cars. Need I remind everyone on here that battery only
    electric cars are short on both range and space?

    Hydrogen is a safer fuel than gasoline. Unlike gasoline, hydrogen
    does not pool. Hydrogen dissipates. Hydrnol and magnesium
    hydride slurry are very safe hydrogen containing compounds that
    can be easily reformed. Magnesium hydride slurry can take a
    propane flame without igniting.

    The compressed hydrogen tanks that people are so afraid
    of have been dropped from airplanes, shot at with real bullets, etcetera. They have passed these tests fully pressurized.

    Lithium by the way is highly explosive. Lithium ION batteries
    have had explosion problems and it has slowed their adoption
    in cars. The military was trying to use large Lithium ION
    batteries on hummers before GM conceived of the Volt.

    There is no need to liquefy hydrogen by the way, the Toyota FCHV
    hybrid fuel cell vehicle can go 500+ miles on a single fill of 10k PSI gaseous hydrogen. Stop ignoring the facts about fuel cell vehicles which have been in development since the early 90s. If the energy
    issue to provide the hydrogen were too serious, there wouldn’t be
    17+ years worth of effort by various auto manufacturers to commercialize fuel cell vehicles in large numbers. Don’t you think
    the auto makers, Honda and Toyota included, would know it’s time
    to give up on fuel cells if that were the case? Quite the contrary,
    it’s time to mass produce fuel cell cars and it’s high time the infrastructure for them got rolled out.

    Joseph Romm is a crank. Anyone who thinks gasoline should be
    part of transportation in the future is just plain wrong. It takes a
    lot of energy to produce a gallon of gasoline and a lot of water. Never mind the cost in blood of securing crude OIL to produce
    gasoline. Any domestic fuel even if it takes a lot of energy to
    produce it is going to be cheaper to produce than gasoline in
    the future.

    The energy efficiency argument is flawed, totally flawed. It would
    have everyone believe that there will never be enough renewable
    energy to produce all the hydrogen that is going to be needed in
    a hydrogen economy. Using the hot deserts in the world alone,
    enough hydrogen for the whole world can be produced. And no,
    I’m not talking all of the land in all of the hot deserts in the world.
    Nuclear power, especially nuclear ships that split sea water, are
    a very realistic pathway to getting hydrogen in large enough
    quantities to support millions of fuel cell cars. Hydrogen carriers
    like hydrnol and magnesium hydride slurry make hydrogen storable
    in an easily reformable form. Heck, cellulosic ethanol is a great
    hydrogen carrier.

    Go to my hydrogen and see what the experts have to say
    by using the links on it:

    http://web.robinson-west.com/michael/hydrogen


  79. 79
    Michael Robinson

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (2:29 am)

    Happy Easter everyone ;-)


  80. [...] But that’s another issue.  The current mindset is bio-fuel oil and even batteries! (news this week is that Indian-owned Jaguar are getting >£300m of UK cash to develop an electric performance [...]


  81. 81
    Denny

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (5:54 am)

    I think the Volt is just a bluff.
    There’s no way they can match the target price of $40.000 by the end of 2010. The batteries costs are too high. That’s way Fisker’s targeted the luxurius sportscar sector with the Karma for its extended range EV, and Jaguar is following.
    The Volt is just a “dream flag” waved in front of the public…


  82. 82
    BillR

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (5:56 am)

    #71 Koz,

    I’ve done some analysis, based upon some of the publically available data, and I believe the Volt should achieve >50 mpg with the ICE on.

    Note there are several references stating the Volt/Ampera will achieve 140-150 mpg combined EPA rating, either by direct quote, or indirectly by CO2 emissions of less than 40 g/km.

    See more on my analysis in the forum.

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541


  83. [...] [Via GM-VOLT] [...]


  84. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  85. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  86. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  87. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  88. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  89. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  90. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  91. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  92. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  93. 93
    FME III

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (7:12 am)

    I find it laughable that Jag was foolish enough to come out with this announcement, and doubly so that it says the car will be in production in 2011.

    As GM found, once can’t simply take an existing vehcle and convert it.

    Not to mention, Jaguar’s less-than-stellar reputation for quality and reliability.

    And then there’s that little problem of cash flow, that Static mentioned.

    And no, #83 Denny, the Volt is not a bluff.


  94. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  95. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  96. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  97. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  98. [...] like leather and tweed smoking jackets, or will the whole thing reek of ozone and patchouli.[Via GM-VOLT]Filed under: TransportationEU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ originally [...]


  99. 99
    TESSA

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (7:55 am)

    i don’t care about electric cars; i’m designing ultra futuristic vehicles!!!


  100. 100
    serra

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (8:49 am)

    I find it laughable that Jag was foolish enough to come out with this announcement, and doubly so that it says the car will be in production in 2011.

    As GM found, once can’t simply take an existing vehcle and convert it.

    Not to mention, Jaguar’s less-than-stellar reputation for quality and reliability.

    And then there’s that little problem of cash flow, that Static mentioned.

    And no, #83 Denny, the Volt is not a bluff..


  101. 101
    EU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (10:21 am)

    [...] GM-VOLT] [...]


  102. [...] [Via GM-VOLT] [...]


  103. 103
    stas peterson

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (12:49 pm)

    I think much of this pooh-poohing is very misdirected and comparing apples and oranges.

    An I-4 tuned to run at a specific consntant rpm and running an
    Atkinson cycle while there, has a BSFE substantially different than an engine opperated at all RPMs, many with very poor efficiency.

    I know this from my old elementary Mechanical Engineering IC engines course in college. For a real world example of how efficient you can get, if you don’t beleive me, recall all those Mobil Economy Rrun affairs. They produced rediculous mileages like 100mpg,from hypermiling. But no hypermilling is any where near approximately as efficient as operating an ICE at a consntant RPM for which that engine has been optimized to function.

    In short, 50 mpg for a 1.4 liter engine, running Atkinson cycle, tuned for optimization at that constant rpm, is a piece of cake!


  104. 104
    » EU automaker loan may lead to fuel-sipping hybrid Jag XJ

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (1:25 pm)

    [...] GM-VOLT] Filed under: [...]


  105. [...] [Via GM-VOLT] [...]


  106. [...] [Via GM-VOLT] [...]


  107. 107
    DocM

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (2:35 pm)

    #93 FME III Says:
    April 13th, 2009 at 7:12 am

    I find it laughable that Jag was foolish enough to come out with this announcement, and doubly so that it says the car will be in production in 2011.

    As GM found, once can’t simply take an existing vehcle and convert it.

    Not to mention, Jaguar’s less-than-stellar reputation for quality and reliability.
    >
    =============================
    Conversions can be done, have been done and by major makers. Ex: GM’s own two-mode strong hybrid full sized SUV’s.

    As for Jaguar’s quality: JD Power rates the XJ as having 4 out of 5 quality and 5 out of 5 on performance and design, higher than many Acura, Honda and Toyota models.


  108. 108
    sam

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (4:01 pm)

    A friend of mine at http://www.affluence.org had told me there was a rumor about this… is there any set date for this thing? i can’t wait to get my hands on one, looks absolutely gorgeous


  109. 109
    bedding introduction

     

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    Apr 13th, 2009 (8:42 pm)

    thank I know this from my old elementary Mechanical Engineering IC engines course in college.


  110. [...] [Via GM-VOLT] [...]


  111. 111
    Herm

     

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    Apr 14th, 2009 (6:17 am)

    I think it will get a hwy mileage similar to a 2010 Prius, around 50mpg.. the biggest difference is that the Volt (compared to the Cruze) will use an Atkinson cycle genset.. and perhaps they will also increase the compression ratio (maybe, the Cruze may already have a high ratio). They can do all this because the electric motor/battery smooths out the power demands placed on the ice genset.

    Low rolling resistance tires will offset some of the extra 600lbs over the Cruze (is that number a fact?.. I thought the battery was under 400lbs).

    There is little braking energy recovery in hwy driving so that will not affect mileage much.

    The Volt many not get as good a hwy mileage as the Prius (once the battery is depleted) due to to losses in the motor/generator.. and also the Prius has a larger ICE that will be running more relaxed than the smaller ICE in the Volt.. but perhaps the Volt will do better since its ICE is almost completely detached from road conditions, the battery will buffer everything.

    In reality the hwy mileage is not important.. neither is the choice of the genset, 78% of the owners will seldom use any gas.. lets not forget that little fact.

    ……………………..

    #32 statik Says:
    April 12th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I wouldn’t take that bet, I am pencilling in very low 40s for the Volt on the ICE as well.
    It should be noted that when the 50MPG was touted as a reality that it was based off the ‘new hotness’ 3 cyclinder -AND- the assumption of a impovement over the Cruze that itself was achieving its own low 40s MPG.


  112. 112
    Electric Vehicle Owner

     

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    Apr 14th, 2009 (9:29 am)

    @ CorvetteGuy 20

    Er, that day happened in 1828.

    As soon as people on this site stop thinking of electric drive as the drivetrain of the future and realize that it’s the drivetrain of the past and present, it’ll become real to Joe SixPack.

    Time to move out of the fringe into the mainstream. Our society’s progress, halted by a century of realtively cheap non-renewable oil, has just grown up.


  113. [...] Read full article [...]


  114. 114
    XJS GUY

     

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    Apr 29th, 2009 (9:35 am)

    There’s a sign entering Death Valley which reads no services for 157 miles.
    Just how will any electric car be able to have a sufficient range to be reasonable when someone actually wants to get anywhere?
    Apparently they’re for use ONLY in town and NOT for a nice scenic trip.
    My ’93 XJS goes approx 400 mi on a tank of gas.
    I’d hate to be stranded somewhere with a dead battery in one of those plug in cars.


  115. 115
    Dowler

     

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    May 15th, 2009 (1:35 am)

    No else said a single thing about it, so I went through with it anyways. It arrived the next via parcel post and since I was the only one home, it became my secret. FastSize Extender


  116. [...] 1, 2 [...]