GMs 2-mode hybrid drivetrains are currently in use in large trucks. They can be found in the Escalade, Yukon, Tahoe, and Silverado where they allow these massive vehicles to achieve 20 mpg combined fuel economy.
Currently a 2-Mode hybrid VUE is in pre-production, and launch has been delayed. Many factors have gone into this delay first and foremost being GM’s financial position and possibly the dead end road Saturn is on.
The 2010 Cadillac SRX, initially previewed a s a fuel cell Voltec derivative Provoq concept, is set for launch this summer. There will be two drivetrain options, a 3.0-liter Direct Injection and a 2.8-liter turbo.
GM has now acknowledged it is their desire to produce a hybrid version of that vehilce too at some point in the future. “We would like to add a hybrid (SRX), yes,” Cadillac spokesperson David Caldwell told GM-Volt.com. “But there are no announcements to be made right now.”
The 2-mode VUE is set up to be powerful if not maximally fuel efficient. The vehicle does a 0 to 60 in 7.4 seconds generating 262 hp and 250 ft-pounds of torque. With all that strength it returns 27 mpg hwy | 30 mpg city with a 3.0 L V6 engine.
Perhaps a Voltec SRX may come eventually, as we’ve heard before from GM, “Voltec is on the table” for designing the next generation hybrid truck drivetrain.
Incidentally, Mercedes has just revealed its new small SUV ML450 HYBRID. This vehilce uses the same 2-mode hybrid drivetrain that GM is using. I has a 335 HP 8 cylinder engine, with a fuel efficiency of 24 mpg hwy | 21 mpg city.
Source (Edmunds)
This entry was posted on Thursday, April 9th, 2009 at 7:06 am and is filed under Cadillac, Hybrid, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
-1
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:12 am)#1? No longer a Virgin.
Be well,
Tag
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:12 am)Makes one wonder, with all the talk about future vehicles, what does the average worker think, or what are they doing, presently at GM, do focus on the here and now…so they have a future?
-1
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:12 am)#2?
Nope, 3
-1
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:17 am)I can die happy now (happier if the Volt was on the road before I assume room temperature though.
Be well,
Tag
From last thread:
“Personally, I think statik (and I) would make a great team of “critical advisers” for the Volt. They could really count on statik to be fair, but critical, and they could count on me to help them after dealing with statik (g). Maybe we could do a series of commercials like the PC and Mac series. We might need a poll to see who plays whom (Nerdy Guy vs Artsy Guy). I’m sure I’d fit the latter, simply because of my good looks, but I can be dopic and the Fool, too.”
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:18 am)All these two-mode hybrids are expensive, are they not?
And they seem to only squeek out just a little bit better milage.
I’ll keep my ICE Sierra for my limited hauling and use my Volt for daily driving.
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:22 am)Tag:
Congratulations on losing your vir…or gaining your urrrhh….um never mind.
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:26 am)Schmeltz@6Tag:
Congratulations on losing your vir…or gaining your urrrhh….um never mind.
Yeah, I grew out of my virginity and into adult-ery.
Be well,
Tag
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:29 am)What is this the comment section for the new Hannah Montana movie?
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:29 am)2-mode is good, maybe great technology, but I’m thinking GM should go all Voltec for everything they sell now. Start planning Voltec drivetrains for every platform including pick-ups. If the Company is to be re-born so to speak, what better way than this to make a statement???
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:34 am)I believe the SRX may have the same underpinnings as the Vue. Nasaman would be the real authority on this.
GM needs a mid-size SUV with good gas mileage and the ability to tow 3500 lbs. The problem I see is that the Vue was supposed to cost about 33k. What’s the Caddy going to set you back?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/24/first-drive-2009-saturn-vue-2-mode-hybrid/
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:37 am)Statik:
Funny you should mention Hanna Montana, I think she’s next on “Give the celebrity a ride in the Volt prototype” list, isn’t she–LOL. She’s probably ahead of Mike Tyson, but right behind Oprah. Poor Lyle is like #974.
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:39 am)Someone should pre-warn Nasaman, he loves this 2-mode/Saturn Vue type news, he will probably have a coronary.
On topic, I’m still not a 100% sure why you want to hybridize the SRX, (or the Escalade) for that matter. Sure, the results of the two mode are actually quite impressive…but c’mon, they are Caddys. The price is already at the upper threshold of sensibility and GM’s hybrid premiums in this segment are notoriously over the top (check the Escalade Platnum Hybrid, lol).
One could argue, good of the environment I suppose…but I’m not sure we don’t mean, green-washing or ‘guilt free driving,’ which might be a good angle for GM, but their track record on throwing the ‘hybrid’ on existing models…especially the upper end ones, is abysmal at best.
Right now GM is averaging 1,200 hybrid sales a month, on 8 different models…that is 150 per vehicle. How many of these SRX hybrids are they really going to sell a month? 50? Whats the premium have to be to just break even? $7,000, $10,000?
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:44 am)It is all about the two tortoise race. Will the Boeing 787 Dreamliner fly before Lyle gets to evaluate Volt performance with hours of open road driving.
Maybe Lyle could get a short lead by test driving the new Rasner SUV to be shown next week.
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:45 am)______________________________________________________
GM,
Don’t get into the business of offering both a 2-Mode Hybrid SRX and a VOLTEC SRX. Partially what has gotten GM into trouble in the past is that GM chasses to many lines of models (and series of models, and sub-series of series) rather that focusing of getting fewer lines made better at a lower cost. You need to get friendly with KISS.
Do whatever it takes to get the VOLTEC SRX onto the Cadillac dealer’s showroom floors. A VOLTEC SRX is an absolute Home Run for Cadillac. You owe it to your Cadillac Dealership community to make that happen ASAP. You owe it to the VOLTEC Team to make that happen ASAP. You owe it to the American Taxpayer that is supporting you to make that happen ASAP. GM…you owe it to yourself to stop making “future desire” declarations and start pushing a VOLTEC SRX down the assembly line….get it done!
If you have to fire half the the GM executive team to afford to get that done then do that….today!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:46 am)#11 Schmeltz Says:
Statik:
Funny you should mention Hanna Montana, I think she’s next on “Give the celebrity a ride in the Volt prototype” list, isn’t she–LOL. She’s probably ahead of Mike Tyson, but right behind Oprah. Poor Lyle is like #974.
=============================
Dear Lyle,
I have enclose a first hand report of Miley Cyrus’ trip to the Volt facilities, as well as many shots of her driving the mules, and some of her driving the actual production prototype Volt (don’t worry we blurred out that part for you). Enjoy!
Regards,
GM Volt team
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:02 am)From the article:
“Perhaps a Voltec SRX may come eventually, as we’ve heard before from GM, “Voltec is on the table” for designing the next generation hybrid truck drivetrain.”
=====================
I wonder if this is possible. I have a feeling the quote about designing for the ‘next generation’ drivetrain doesn’t really mean this one.
I am a little confused about the ‘new’ Theta ‘premium’ platform to begin with. No info really comes out of CREC anymore, I assume the ‘premium’ was designed in Michigan.
Seems to me the ‘new’ Theta premium platform just a fine tuning/updated extension of the current one with parts taken from the Epsilon II, rather than a new forward thinking base that would allow for more flexibility for the ‘Voltec’ system?
I have a feeling it is still old school design, and it would be a difficult shoe-horn job…and the future drivetrain quote is about something else, but would be a interesting question to get answered nonetheless.
/interesting article Lyle
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:09 am)10 BillR…….. I believe the SRX may have the same underpinnings as the Vue. Nasaman would be the real authority on this.
GM needs a mid-size SUV with good gas mileage and the ability to tow 3500 lbs. The problem I see is that the Vue was supposed to cost about 33k. What’s the Caddy going to set you back?
============================================================================
You’re right on target, Bill! In fact the 2-Mode Vue uses the same excellent 3L V-6 as the current CTX (with a lower HP rating). And the Vue is virtually identical in length, width & height to the Provoq concept, so the SRX should be very much the same package —but with the luxurious interior & sexy styling of the SRX.
What’s exciting to me is the possibility that the Saturn Plug-in Vue, which is already in road testing, could easily “morph” into a Plug-in SRX if Saturn is dead-ended (or not). Remember that the 2-mode front-drive transmission includes 2 independent electric motors rated at 74HP each (148 HP combined) —almost the same as the Volt’s 150HP— which should certainly allow a Plug-in SRX to reach 80MPH. This crossover should do it all: 1) Haul lots of people & their stuff; 2) Tow boat or horse trailers up to 3,500 Lbs; 3) Achieve Prius-like mileage (>50mpg).
Price? I’d guess GM could get at least $58K if not more!
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:20 am)David K
All these two-mode hybrids are expensive, are they not?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes. They are.
Silverado 4×4 Hybrid: About $43,000 MSRP
Tahoe Hybrid: About $48,000 MSRP
Both have trim levels nearly the same as the LTZ’s (fully loaded).
The Cadillac would surely have a sticker price between $59,000 and $65,000.
I’ve been saying it a long time: Build a 2-mode Tahoe without all the ‘extras’ for around $40-42,000 (before rebates) and they will be more widely accepted.
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:28 am)I love the idea of putting in a two-mode powertrain for the SRX. Maybe they’ll add a Voltec powertrain in 3-4 years. Who knows.
Just my humble opinion … I hope Cadillac moves away from that vertically stacked headlights thing. It only looks okay on SOME types of vehicles like large 18 wheeler trucks … not ALL kinds of vehicles. To me, it’s kind of like seeing someone wearing some funky sunglasses. I prefer the classic kinds of sunglasses and conventional, yet modern looking headlight shapes. Sometimes, newer and more original is NOT better.
Cadillac needs to get dead serious about going after Lexus and their hybrid SUVs. Americans will still want them …. at least the smaller SUVs with good mileage and a nice hybrid system. Cadillac needs to make sure their SUVs look just as good or BETTER than this upcoming Lexus RX. Gotta admit, the upcoming RX looks pretty good. Especially from the side and the rear.
http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/06/23/spy-shots-2010-lexus-rx-redesign-spotted/
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:42 am)Lyle cannot be 974 because that is my number… But Lyle,, feel free to use that number for the Volt test drive… Just drop it off at my house when you are finished..
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:48 am)“GMs 2-mode hybrid drivetrains are currently in use in large trucks. They can be found in the Escalade, Yukon, Tahoe, and Silverado where they allow these massive vehicles to achieve 20 mpg combined fuel economy.”
Wow, 20 whole miles to the gallon. My Ford F250 Diesel gets that…
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:51 am)Hiaku for Late-Comers to the MPG Party
Hybrid Ute in ’10
Gets 30 mpg, Gosh!
Like my ’05, snore.
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:56 am)What statik says in #12 but nasaman has a good point in #17 about using the technology developed for the Vue 2 mode (Saturn is dead, not sure why there is any question).
Pricing as others have mentioned is an issue. This was the point I believe was made by statik’s hero Bob Lutz: the technology for hybrids is just too expensive given the benefits and price of gas. Tough situation for GM. On the one hand everyone says they should build the hybrids. On the other hand few consumers are willing to pony up the extra cash to buy them.
Going back to statik’s point in #12, given that most folks lusting after a Caddy SUV for hauling are probably not overly concerned with gas mileage, the logic of an SUV hybrid escapes me. It would seem that a hybrid CUV makes more sense. Or how about a hybrid Cruze? There seems to be a mismatch between the products and the consumers who buy them.
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:00 am)I think there was, breifly, a future for “have your cake and eat it too” (combined with a little “up yours, hippies”) large-format hybrids. The firstest in this case (Ford) came away with the mostest (even hybrid-savvy Toyota missed the crest of this wave with the later Highlander).
In the post $4 a gallon world, I think this approach is now an uphill battle. The $4 a gallon reality was like a thermostatic set point for the US public, and everyone is back to the ’80s; looking for the best mpg period. …This time, Toyota and Honda are ready with plenty of Priuses and Prius-like hybrids (and small non-hybrids of quality manufacture): affordable, mature technology and high mileage.
The initial intent to jump beyond low-performing prius-clones with Voltec still seems valid … if not delayed by attempts to recover the cost of developing 2-mode.
===
BDJ (#22): You’re short a syllable in the second line, I think. Change “Gets” to “Getting” and you’re up to 7.
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:07 am)What a boring thread. What a ridiculous car design! These days consumption values are reaching far beyond 50 mpg. Who would buy a truck or SUV nowadays?
Boooring…
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:07 am)Anyone in the market for a a 2-Mode hybrid Cadillac SRX? Not me.
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:10 am)I love quotes like this:
“We would like to add a hybrid (SRX), yes,” Cadillac spokesperson David Caldwell told GM-Volt.com. “But there are no announcements to be made right now.”
I could say this and it would be just as accurate:
“I would like to build the next rocket to send Tag and statik to Mars, but there are no announcements to be made right now.”
Could you be any more non-commital????
LJGTVWOTR & NPNS!!! Is this really so hard to understand?
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:17 am)(#27):
“I would like to build the next rocket to send Tag and statik to Mars, but there are no announcements to be made right now.”
I’m tempted to say something about one of them being from Venus, but I think I can resist (take a look near the end of the previous thread).
I’d like to build a fusion/fission hybrid power cell using Thorium for fuel, small enough to fit in the engine bay of a full-sized pickup, but there are no announcements to be made right now.
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:23 am)#25 Maynard & #26 Thomb
I would be interested in the 2-mode SRX, if the price is right.
I would be more interested in a 2-mode GMC Acadia or Buick Enclave, but I’m not sure that 2-mode will make it into those vehicles.
The Volt should be a nice car, however, I still need a utility vehicle with 4WD and it’s nice to have 8 passenger capability when you need it (Acadia or Enclave).
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:26 am)Sounds like Samsung might be putting some fuel cells into production (just around the corner right.)
http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/09/samsungs-latest-fuel-cell-prototype-proves-again-that-soldiers/#continued
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:44 am)The U.S. will return to the Moon before Lyle gets his ride.
All Volts will be pre-sold during the first couple of years.
I am sure you could get one of the Volts that will be held for ransom by a few dealers to the highest bidder if you can produce enough coin.
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:44 am)Off Topic a little….but check this out. Looks an awful lot like a 2009 Silverado to me….
http://www.gizmag.com/raser-100-mpg-extended-range-electric-vehicle-e-rev/11427/picture/74743/
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:52 am)#29 BillR
It’s a Caddy! If you gotta ask about the price…
Apr 9th, 2009 (9:58 am)Voltec technology needs to be completed in the new Equinox-Terrain – SRX lineup. The two mode is excellent for those towing but many people just use these cars for commuting and 31 city does not do it.
We need the plug in Vue technology in these vehicles – yesterday.
Showed my wife the pictures of all three – she liked the 2010 Equinox as much as the SRX – will have to see in person before final decision. But right now I need a plug in Equinox – not even a mild hybrid will be offered and GM wonders why sales are down.
GM exec’s not everyone wants a second rate interior on a hybrid – offer an LTZ finish in a plug in – please
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:00 am)#23 Don C,
———–
Making big trucks into hybrids does make sense when you look at it this way. Going from 12mpg to 22mpg is an 83% increase in efficiency. Going from 30mpg to 40mpg is only a 33% increase.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:09 am)Why not put a 2-mode into the Chevy Traverse?
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:11 am)@Tagamet 1
Slut!
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:12 am)The Tesla Model S claims a huge range and a 45 minute recharge and a cost ~$50K after rebate, but I’m not prepared to confirm their data.
Be well,
Tag
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:14 am)25 Maynard Keenan
Me. And millions of other people. You see you can’t pull a 10,000 pound trailer with a Prius. You can’t haul plywood in a Honda Civic.
Some people work for a living and some of us both work and play hard. A 50 mpg transportation pod is not for everybody.
If you really hate trucks and the people who drive them, you may want to learn how to build a grass hut. Plywood weighs about 25 pounds a sheet, drywall 65 pounds a sheet. Don’t even ask what 1 bundle of roofing weighs.
You see, if you live in a building, (house, apartment, hotel, etc.) it was build by men (and women!) with trucks. The building materials were delivered with big trucks, but the workers themselves showed up in pickups and vans with all their tools and equipment.
To imply better trucks with better fuel economy is a waste of engineering is utter nonsense and very short sighted.
Hell, even todays large vehicles are a far far improvement over the past. My first vehicle was a used 1969 chrysler 300. It got 12 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. I think it weighed about 4200
My 2004 dodge ram 4 door (4 wheel drive too) weighs 7200 pounds and gets 18 mpg at 70 mph. I get 10 mpg towing the 10,000 pound trailer. I consider that amazing. Future trucks will do even better with 2 mode and maybe even e-rev.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:18 am)2-mode is just for PR and diversification. Immaterial direct impact on revenues.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:22 am)#:28 Jackson says:
I’d like to build a fusion/fission hybrid power cell using Thorium for fuel, small enough to fit in the engine bay of a full-sized pickup, but there are no announcements to be made right now.
___________________________________________________
Thorium….?!? Please! That is so last Tuesday for GM.
Have you not heard that GM is in the process of testing new fuel cell source made from the tears of the hummingbirds from Victoria falls in Africa? It will revolutionize the industry!
Of course like anything else GM develops it will take 10 to 15 years. But by them GM will be on the next wave of PR vaporwear.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:25 am)GM may not make anything .
I just visited EVworld.com and the story is Volt Funding is Dead for now .
This is the link.
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=20782
what a bummer.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:32 am)Was reading on 2 mode hybrids, As per GM it offers a 50% increase of fuel efficiency compared to the mild hybrids.
The Ford escape hybrid offers 34/31 mpg. In this case a 27/30 is not a big achievement and proves 2 mode is less efficient than fords one and GMC terrain without hybrid goes 30mpg on highway.
As per GM ,a 50% increase in efficiency for 2 mode hybrids, if they use Terrain engine in 2 mode hybrid it should give 45 mpg (50% increase (30 + 15) ).
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/01/two-mode-diagram.jpg
I think GM has to experiment with 6 or 8 gears or CVT in the 2 mode to make it more efficient and has to scale down also ex: how to use a 4 cylinder DI engine in a 2 mode power train etc )
Ex: a 2010 ford focus gets 41/36 and malibu hybrid gets 26/34, then with 2 mode power train in a malibu hybrid it should be 55 /51 ( 34+ 17 – and city high because of regenerative breaks and low speed ). By improvning airo dynamics of malibu they should be add 3-4 miles so a 55 mpg malibu is possible with the technology in theory.
Question is why GM is not doing when they have technology from 2001 and they can be in same boat as others just by using this in current scenario and leapfrog with voltec in future.
I wonder a 2010 malibu comes with 60 /55 mpg numbers and 2 mode power train. Lets see how rest of GM than the volt team takes the challenge ( volt team is bailed out till release of volt )
Sorry GM, its late , if you had a 2 mode cadi in 2003 , i would have appriciated, others have the hybrids for common man and you still think its a high end game ? .
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:36 am)Looks like these guys are still working on this.
http://www.examiner.com/x-7226-Electric-Car-Examiner~y2009m4d8-AFS-Trinity-Pushing-PlugIn-Hybrids-Performance
Take Care
Arch
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:48 am)#35 k-dawg
I like it! How about another?
In an oxygen-deprived environment, going from 6% to 11% oxygen is an 83% increase in oxygen concentration. Going from 15 to 20 is only a 33% increase.
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:52 am)#42– GM still has at least some of their own cash for now:
A quote from the full article:
“GM said any delay in federal funding won’t affect plans to start selling the Volt next year.
“The Volt continues to be one of our highest priorities among all GM’s future product programs and remains on track for a November 2010 launch — with or without a Sec. 136 award,” said GM spokesman David Darovitz.
But an analyst suspects that, without the federal loan, GM may transfer money from the rest of its vehicle fleet to subsidize the Volt and its derivatives.
“That would be a mistake,” said Rob Kleinbaum, managing director of RAK & Co., a consulting firm in Ann Arbor, Mich. “The Volt won’t be commercially successful for quite some time. By robbing Peter to pay Paul, they’d be undermining their bottom line.”
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090408/ANA02/904089971/1229
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:55 am)i believe GM should focus on voltec system, and junk those blah blah hybrid nonsense..
GM just build my Volt will u!…
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:02 am)#39 Solo2500
Thanks for delivering that dose of reality that so many just don’t get.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:05 am)Hi guys, I hope you didn’t miss me too much the last few days, LMAO. We did a bit of a road trip around the state. Old CA looks pretty good this time of year, if I do say so myself. Even old Sacramento is pretty vibrant, with a really lively “Midtown” sort of urban pioneer scene. The Gold Country is all bright green for the moment, and Yosemite is at its best, with the snow melting and the waterfalls all going. The Santa Fe Basque restaurnt in Fresno is as outstanding as ever. If you ever find yourself in Fresno, do yourself a favor and check it out.
We got 21 mpg with the old ’95 Impala. Amazing. The old girl still eats up the Interstate as well as ever.
It’s enough to renew your energy for the next 1000 episodes of “As The GM Turns”.
It’s nice to see that Secretary Geithner is looking for GM to survive.
Good for Jay! God bless you Lyle, but Jay deserves it too.
As to the SRX, the Terrain and the PUMA, 10-88. They will not be much help toward achieving Secretary Geithner’s goal, IMHO.
As to Elon Musk, the less said the better.
FYI, the new Automobile magazine has two very topical columns concerning the current automotive unpleasantness. Jaime Kitman’s column “Finance It Again Tony” is a really interesting commentary on the proposed Chrysler/Fiat wedding. Jean Jennings’ column on the last page is a fun look at Bob Lutz. She’s a Lutz fan, which I’m not, but it’s still interesting.
All the best to all of you. Here we go!
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:11 am)The problem is that Lutz was lying. GM’s hybrid system, sure. Too expensive. But Toyota’s been making money on Prius for a long time now.
And for those who think that trucks are where this stuff is at – no, most people don’t ever need to haul plywood or drywall on a regular basis, and you can do that on an occasional basis with a Prius. I stuck a rain barrel from the city in there and was even able to fully close the hatch, and have brought home small batches of lumber from Home Depot (in other words, the actually typical use case for the average person, not the fictional one that just happens to make big trucks a ‘need’).
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:16 am)50.
Guy Incognito Says:
April 9th, 2009 at 11:16 am
On the brink of bankruptcy, GM is still trying to tell us that we want SUV’s?
“GM’s 2-mode hybrid drivetrains can be found in the Escalade, Yukon, Tahoe, and Silverado where they allow these massive vehicles to achieve 20 mpg combined fuel economy.”
S h i t, these things are getting 20 mpg?
Wow, thats impressive….NOT!!!
It kind of makes sense to me that Ford & Chrysler are’nt as bad off as GM is, their people must not be as retarded as those at GM.
I see now why Lutz retired and they told Wagoner to get the h e l l out.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:18 am)Was reading on 2 mode hybrids, As per GM it offers a 50% increase of fuel efficiency compared to the mild hybrids.
The Ford escape hybrid offers 34/31 mpg. In this case a 27/30 is not a big achievement and proves 2 mode is less efficient than fords one and GMC terrain without hybrid goes 30mpg on highway.
As per GM ,a 50% increase in efficiency for 2 mode hybrids, if they use Terrain engine in 2 mode hybrid it should give 45 mpg (50% increase (30 + 15) ).
http://www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/01/two-mode-diagram.jpg
I think GM has to experiment with 6 or 8 fixed gears or CVT in the 2 mode EVT to make it more efficient and has to scale down also ex: how to use a 4 cylinder DI engines (1.4L, 2.4L and 6 cylinder 3.0, 3.4/6 ) in a 2 mode power train etc )
Ex: a 2010 ford focus gets 41/36 and malibu hybrid gets 26/34, then with 2 mode power train in a malibu hybrid it should be 55 /51 ( 34+ 17 – and city high because of regenerative breaks and low speed ).
By improvning airo dynamics and reduction of weight of malibu they should be add 3-4 miles so a 55 mpg malibu is possible with the technology in theory.
Question is why GM is not doing when they have technology from 2001 and they can be in same boat as others just by using this in current scenario and leapfrog with voltec in future.
I wonder a 2010 malibu comes with 60 /55 mpg numbers and 2 mode power train. Lets see how rest of GM than the volt team takes the challenge ( volt team is bailed out till release of volt )
Sorry GM, its late , if you had a 2 mode cadi in 2003 , i would have appriciated, others have the hybrids for common man and you still think its a high end game ?
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:22 am)#23 DonC said:
Going back to statik’s point in #12, given that most folks lusting after a Caddy SUV for hauling are probably not overly concerned with gas mileage, the logic of an SUV hybrid escapes me. It would seem that a hybrid CUV makes more sense. Or how about a hybrid Cruze? There seems to be a mismatch between the products and the consumers who buy them.
======================================
Yeah, that is the logical extension.
It would be tricky getting the value out of hybridizing a Cruze that already gets 35MPG (already rated in UK), the price GM charges as a premium would be difficult to recoup in gas savings.
The biggest no brainer to hybridize (at least to me) is the gas guzzlers people are FORCED to buy…the vehicle that people drive, but still care about the price of gas…like a VAN! I can get a Dodge Caravan up here for $11,900 USD…which is a great deal, but the pig is still going to only be getting 18 MPG. I can see the advantage of paying extra 3-4K to get 25-30MPG a lot easier.
PS) welcome back noel…you haven’t missed much other than Tag losing his mind and a new ‘pro-hydrogen’ movement.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:24 am)I don’t care. I just want my (Holden) Volt.
As far as the Tesla Model S goes, I would rather have a iMiEV and a Prius for the price it will cost.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:28 am)@Guy Incognito 50
“S h i t, these things are getting 20 mpg?
Wow, thats impressive….NOT!!!”
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Dude, when you set your bar so dang low, any minor increase makes it look, percentage wise, like a major increase.
People correlate “Hybrid” with 35-45MPG. So now anything below that is a joke! I fall in that category. I think if I added a CVT pulley on my lawnmower to it’s wheels I’ll get more than that 18-20 MPG.
I’m all for a truck or SUV man but if you’re going to call it a “Hybrid”, you’re putting it in the class the general public percieves it in MPG.
Just build my Volt Dangit!!!
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!
Make the garbage I listed, but another mans treasure, an “Upgrade” for those who want these creature comforts.
Standard Features:
AC
Heater
Defogger Front/Rear
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:32 am)Almost forgot, things are looking up in China!
SHANGHAI (Reuters) — General Motors Corp said on Wednesday its China sales in March rose 24.6% from a year earlier to 137,004 vehicles, setting a company record for monthly sales as China’s stimulus policies bolstered the market.
Source: http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/08/news/companies/gm_china.reut/index.htm
/now where’s my daisy Tag?
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:37 am)Well, it looks like the Jellybean car is in fact coming to America….
“At a press conference here in New York in a few minutes, Mitsubishi representatives will officially announce that the i-MiEV electric vehicle – already a hit in test drives and displays the world over – will be coming to the U.S. ”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/09/new-york-2009-mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-will-come-to-u-s/
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:38 am)k-dawg Says:
April 9th, 2009 at 10:00 am
#23 Don C,
———–
Making big trucks into hybrids does make sense when you look at it this way. Going from 12mpg to 22mpg is an 83% increase in efficiency. Going from 30mpg to 40mpg is only a 33% increase.
———————————————————————–
Dawg, you are correct directionally, but you actually understate your case. The difference is even more dramatic if you get away from mpg and use the gallons per year convention popularized by one of our prolific posters:
Based on 15,000 miles per year:
MPG Gallons/yr Savings
12 1250
22 682 568 gal
30 500
40 375 125 gal
This effect is somewhat diminished by the fact that a 10 mpg improvement is much harder to get (unless you cut the weight) in a 2-3 ton vehicle than a 10 mpg improvment in a smaller car.
It reinforces the fact that MPG is a reciprocal, and you cannot correctly compare mpg factors, you need to look at gallons per year.
This is why a 45 mpg Prius is much more competitive economicallty with a 105 mpg Volt than it might seem by looking at mpg. If you do a gallons per year analysis, you will find that the Pruis will be a much better buy than the Volt until the Volt price premium can be greatly reduced.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:38 am)#48 Noel Park:
Welcome back Noel. Good to re-charge the batteries every now and then! (pun intended).
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:40 am)Getting moderated agai!
Well, it looks like the Jellybean car is in fact coming to America….
Google it: “Mitsubishi confirms i-MiEV will come to U.S.”
“At a press conference here in New York in a few minutes, Mitsubishi representatives will officially announce that the i-MiEV electric vehicle – already a hit in test drives and displays the world over – will be coming to the U.S. ”
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:47 am)Hybrid Cadillac SRX? Huh? A hybrid caddy? I don’t get it. People who buy a caddy worry about mileage, huh?
More hybrids GM, more more more, but up the mpg to 21.9 since that’s like 22 in most people’s minds!
GO PUMA ! (Does it come with a range extender, since we’ll need that too?!?)
GO EV!
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:47 am)51 statik….. You say, “The biggest no brainer to hybridize (at least to me) is the gas guzzlers people are FORCED to buy….”
============================================================================
I agree! By the way, the topic of this thread IS in fact a CUV (crossover/compact SUV) using “uni-body” construction, not body on frame as are most full-size SUVs.
And while I’m commenting, I want to emphasize that the Plug-in 2-Mode Vue I discuss in #17, which uses the down-sized, FWD version of GM’s 2-Mode transmission, is identical in size to the SRX (which is therefore also a CUV).
…..Also, I don’t think people GOT my point in #17 that the PLUG-IN 2-MODE VUE, with a 262hp/250 ft-lb V6 PLUS two electric motors providing an additional 148hp, has already begun full-up testing and should in theory be easily “transplanted” to the SRX as a very high mileage version (>50mpg) of the SRX if GM chose to do so at some later time!
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:57 am)It is amazing how thoughtless some posters are.
When you put a dual-mode parallel-series hybrid into a 6000+ pound vehicle with a big v8 6 liter engine, the combined mileage goes up to 21 mpg.
When you put that same dual mode into a 4000+ pound vehicle with a 3.0 liter v6 the mileage you get should go up proportionately. So 6000 pounds get 20 mpg, implies the 2/3 the weight, (1/3 off), and a more efficient ICE should yield a mileage increase of at least 1/3 or significantly over 30 mpg and still get good towing ability of equal to or more than 3500 pounds.
An SRX hybrid sporting a mileage increase to say 35-45 mpg combined, priced under the Cadillac price point should be a good CADDY addition, to face off against the Lexus equivalent.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:02 pm)A two-mode SRX is a step in the right direction. I’m fairly impressed by the stats, but what we really need is a plug-in version. I would love to see the SRX with Voltec, but realistically I think that is a few years down the road. Right now perhaps GM should try making some plug-in parallel hybrid SUVs before they are confident in being able to make good EREV versions. I think GM will EREV a few compact delta II platform vehicles first before they get batteries cheap enough to make EREVing bigger cars viable. That said, the first EREV suv/cuv should be a caddy, definitely, since it will have a big price premium. I can totally see some eco-chic rich folks driving a Converj and using an EREV SRX for their family.
A possible early EREVing scenario for the GM fleet:
Silverado EREV? …Imagine the low-end torque!
1) Volt/ Ampera
2) Converj
3) Volt Gen II
4) Chevy Orlando and/or Cruze EREV?
Non-delta II vehicles:
5) Caddy SRX?
6) Colorado or HHR EREVs?
7) Tahoe/ Other Large SUV EREV?
9) EREV Sportscar? Corvette? Camaro?
…And then the whole GM fleet! (at which point hopefully they can start to make some pure EV small cars. I think people would totally buy a throwback EV-1 copy “EV-2″ when battery prices make it viable. For now I can’t fathom using anything w/out a range extender)
GO VOLT(EC)!
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:09 pm)If another platform is to be EREV’d, do it to a Colorado small Pickup.
I’d prefer a pickup. Either the crew or the standard. Again, none of those dang extra crap. It’s a work truck for pete’s sake.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:13 pm)#57 CaptJackSparrow said:
Getting moderated agai!
Well, it looks like the Jellybean car is in fact coming to America….
Google it: “Mitsubishi confirms i-MiEV will come to U.S.”
“At a press conference here in New York in a few minutes, Mitsubishi representatives will officially announce that the i-MiEV electric vehicle – already a hit in test drives and displays the world over – will be coming to the U.S. ”
===================================
I seen that from the New York auto show!
…and there was much rejoicing! (at least for me). Its no secret the iMiev is my first choice at the moment.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:13 pm)CaptJack @ 53…
Don’t forget that you need…
4 wheels
Highway (Freeway, I guess to people out on the left) speed capable
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:13 pm)Jump to the iMiev link:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/09/new-york-2009-mitsubishi-confirms-i-miev-will-come-to-u-s/
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:15 pm)#57 CaptJackSparrow:
I tried to put it up as well…it went to moderation.
So Lyle is probably setting up a thread about it…so we shouldn’t talk about it yet, lol.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:20 pm)#44 ThombDbhomb
Not sure if you were being sarcastic or what your point was? sorry
#55 Tom H
I considered doing the math for everyone, but I thought it was moot. Thanks though. IMO its good to stop the hemmoraging before taking care of the scratches.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:26 pm)All hybrids are a poor attempt to fool the public. The battery on those hybrids never start with a full charge.
When they decide to put a plug on those hybrids then they’d be worth the investment.
NPNS!
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:31 pm)69. (OH YEAH!!!)
Guy Incognito Says:
April 9th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
#60
Stas Peterson
Agreed, It is amazing how thoughtless some posters are.
Many of these posters are really just posers passing themselves off as posters.
You hit the nail right on the head with that one.
_-=
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:37 pm)Just a shot of the first left hand drive iMiev introduced today in New York:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/04/Mitsubishi-iMiev-US.jpg
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:41 pm)iMiev coming to town!
I would be a willing buyer, but only if I can justify the economics of the car. I think I may be more typical, in that I “think” I want a hybrid or electric, but when I start looking at all my options and price/payback, I will unhappily purchase a more common ICE machine.
BUT, if I can convince myself that an iMiev will have a TCO less than, say a Honda Fit, Ford Focus, or Chevy Cobalt(?), I will plunk down the cash (yes, I always pay cash for my cars, at least since 1988)
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:46 pm)BTW:
Maybe its just me, but I get excited about “range anxiety”. I would truly find it a challenge to plan trips according to my range, and hey, if the car runs out of juice, then maybe its an opportunity to meet new people, and explore a place I would have never explored.
I have a cell phone, if something major comes up I call, otherwise I find a local pub, have few beers, shoot the breeze, waiting for my car to charge.
If I have super emergency, I drop a 100 bills and get someone to give me a ride.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:47 pm)@JEC 71
Yeah, There’s no price yet for the Jellybean car. The Th!nk might be “Cost Prohibitive” but I’ll have to wait and see. However, that EV Innovations “Wave” may work for me eventough it’s a 2 seater. When I commute, it’s just me. $34.9K and 170MPC (I don’t consider the $7500 in the purchase), I’m good wit that.
First one here Wins my $$$!
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:51 pm)Was reading on 2 mode hybrids, As per GM it offers a 50% increase of fuel efficiency compared to the mild hybrids.
The Ford escape hybrid offers 34/31 mpg. In this case a 27/30 is not a big achievement and proves 2 mode is less efficient than fords one and GMC terrain without hybrid goes 30mpg on highway.
As per GM ,a 50% increase in efficiency for 2 mode hybrids, if they use Terrain engine in 2 mode hybrid it should give 45 mpg (50% increase (30 + 15) ).
I think GM has to experiment with 6 or 8 fixed gears or CVT in the 2 mode EVT to make it more efficient and has to scale down also ex: how to use a 4 cylinder DI engines (1.4L, 2.4L and 6 cylinder 3.0, 3.4/6 ) in a 2 mode power train etc )
Ex: a 2010 ford focus gets 41/36 and malibu hybrid gets 26/34, then with 2 mode power train in a malibu hybrid it should be 55 /51 ( 34+ 17 – and city high because of regenerative breaks and low speed ).
By improvning airo dynamics and reduction of weight of malibu they should be add 3-4 miles so a 55 mpg malibu is possible with the technology in theory.
Question is why GM is not doing when they have technology from 2001 and they can be in same boat as others just by using this in current scenario and leapfrog with voltec in future.
I wonder a 2010 malibu comes with 60 /55 mpg numbers and 2 mode power train. Lets see how rest of GM than the volt team takes the challenge ( volt team is bailed out till release of volt )
Sorry GM, its late , if you had a 2 mode cadi in 2003 , i would have appreciated, others have the hybrids for common man and you still think its a high end game ?
previous 2 posts on same waiting moderation, i took of the autoblog link and post appeared, Lyle, please avoid my previous post on the same or approve the #52 which contains the link
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:58 pm)@Unni 74
“previous 2 posts on same waiting moderation, i took of the autoblog link and post appeared, Lyle, please avoid my previous post on the same or approve the #52 which contains the link ”
Moderation looks like a random filter on pposted URL’s. Pull key phrases from the website to return a 100% first result of google and post that search criteria for us to do a Google search on.
Apr 9th, 2009 (12:58 pm)#62 ccombs
EREVing scenario for the GM fleet:
That’s a good outline, but Corvette and Camaro will probably never go Hybrid/Electric. If Chevy has an ‘electric sports car’, maybe they can revive the “NOVA” nameplate!
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:04 pm)@CorvetteGuy 76
” If Chevy has an ‘electric sports car’, maybe they can revive the “NOVA” nameplate!”
Nah, they should resurect the old little “Opel GT”. Yeh, that little mofo that looked like a hotwheel version of the Vette…
Google it: 1969-73 Opel GT
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:11 pm)Welcome back Noel!
#35 kdawg (and #56 Tom H) says “Making big trucks into hybrids does make sense when you look at it this way. Going from 12mpg to 22mpg is an 83% increase in efficiency. Going from 30mpg to 40mpg is only a 33% increase.”
That’s perfectly true. However, the difference isn’t that great. I think the base engine gets 18/24 or something. More importantly, it doesn’t make sense to expect people who buy big trucks to worry about mileage when gas is $2/gallon. People who are considering a Prius will think about mpg, but those are not by and large the people looking for an Escalade. GM has a mismatch between the product and the target demographic. This is why I don’t think the Silverado is as nutto as the Escalade or the Tahoe, and why statik’s idea of a hybrid van makes sense. It seems fairly obvious that GM should be marketing hybrid vehicles either to (1) people looking for a vehicle because it gets good mileage or (2) to people who have to buy a given type of vehicle.
Nasaman in #60 is pointing out that this would in fact be a CUV rather than a SUV. This makes it better but generally speaking, with some exceptions, it still fails the “want good mileage or have to buy this” test. It’s more like ‘want this type of vehicle it would be nice if it got good mileage”.
#49 M1EK says “The problem is that Lutz was lying”
Heavens. The technology costs money. If it didn’t every vehicle on the road would have it. Honda discontinued the Insight and hasn’t been successful with the hybrid Civic or Accord. Toyota hasn’t found the Camry hybrid to be a killer. It seems that up to this point one hybrid has made money, and that only recently as volumes have gone up.
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:14 pm)From an engineer’s standpoint, it is doubtful that the Voltec design as yet reaches up to D class sedans and two-ton CUVs. That would require a larger electric motor drive train. And much more battery capacity probably from 16KWH effective to 24 KEW with 12KWH effective.
That might be truly uneconomic at present.
The combination of 148 HP electric dual-mode in conjunction with a 220 HP ICE provides for a combined 368 HP and much greater torque from zero RPM upward from the 3.6 liter v6′s 280 hp able to tow 3500 pounds
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:20 pm)#74 Unni
“Was reading on 2 mode hybrids, As per GM it offers a 50% increase of fuel efficiency compared to the mild hybrids.”
Actually, this is compared to the composite fuel mileage, not the highway mileage, and is for the change from ICE driven to 2-mode.
Example – the V6 Vue is rated 16/22 city/hwy. With the EPA’s 55%/45% weighting between city and highway, this equates to a composite fuel economy of 18.7 mpg.
The 2-mode Vue is projected to get 28/31 per my link in #10. This is a composite fuel economy of 29.4 mpg, or a 57% improvement.
As can be seen from this example, the city mpg is improved by 75%, while the highway mpg is improved by only 41%. So it is not reasonable to expect a 50% increase in highway mileage with the 2-mode, only a composite improvement.
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Welcome back Noel.
I’ll be back before the Volt’s release.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR**********NPNS**********Independence Day 2010
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:36 pm)78 DonC
I used somewhat extreme #’s to make my point. As a country it makes sense to fix the guzzlers first. For GM, it also helps their CAFE. Your marketing point is true, if gas remains at $2. Some Caddy & SUV owners however do care about MPG, especially at high gas prices that hit even their pocketbooks. Ex: My brother drives a Blazer, is not rich, and would love to get 30mpg. The ones that are so rich that they don’t care will simply buy a “Green Car” as a status symbol..(or so that they dont have to get out of their car as often to fill up)
Apr 9th, 2009 (1:49 pm)#70 statik Says:
April 9th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Just a shot of the first left hand drive iMiev introduced today in New York:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/04/Mitsubishi-iMiev-US.jpg
============
Are those LED hedlights?
Did they downsize the 16kwh battery?
What’s the battery warranty/chemistry?
What is the estimated cost (35k?)
FWD/RWD?
Range (80miles) / top speed (80mph?)
I ask you because you seem to be the most interested in this car, so i assume you have done your homework.
Apr 9th, 2009 (2:00 pm)noel park
Thanks for the tip about ” The Santa Fe Basque restaurnt” if I ever get that far north again to see my cousins I’ll be sure to check into it for the regional dining experience!
NPNS!
Apr 9th, 2009 (2:06 pm)@k-dawg 83
fyi…
Mitsubishi i-MiEV concept specifications
i-MiEV concept (left-hand drive) i-MiEV (Japanese right-hand drive)
Overall length 135.8-in. 133.7-in.
Overall width 59.8-in. 58.1-in.
Overall height 63.0-in. 63.0-in.
Track: F/R 55.3 / 55.3-in. 51.6 / 50.0-in.
Wheelbase 100.4-in. 100.4-in.
Number of passengers 4 4
Vehicle weight 2381 lbs. 2381 lbs.
Motor output 63 hp 63 hp
Motor torque 133 lb.-ft 133 lb.-ft
Battery system 330V lithium-ion 330V lithium-ion
Drive mode Mid-engine, rear-wheel drive Mid-engine, rear-wheel drive
The rest is unknown as they have not released anything more. I’m curious on the battery capacity though.
Apr 9th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Thanks Capt.
i found this.. but nothing official from Mitz,
“The electric version replaces the “i” engine, transmission, and fuel tank with a 16-kilowatt-hour lithium ion battery pack, a 47-kilowatt motor producing 133 foot-pounds of torque, an inverter, and the car’s power electronics. Claimed maximum speed is 81 mph, with a range of roughly 100 miles on the Japanese test cycle, and 75 miles on the US cycle.”
Apr 9th, 2009 (2:51 pm)Hybrids make a lot of sense for SUVs and crossovers if you need to drive an SUV. Consider a how much gas it takes to go 1000 miles:
16mpg SUV – 62.5 gallons
17.6mpg Hybrid SUV – 56.8 gallons
That’s a 5.7 gallon savings. with a 10% improvement in milage.
Now consider the same mpg improvement in a compact car:
mpg compact – 33.3 gallons
33mpg hybrid compact 30.3 gallons
Thats three gallons save for the same 10% improvement.
For the same 10% improvement, the larger vehicle saves more gas. Of course, that’s only true if you compare apples to apples. If you trade in you 13mpg F-350 for a Prius you save a ton of gas.
Apr 9th, 2009 (3:20 pm)Someone mentioned LED headlights, which sent me off on a loopy tangent —> What would use less electricity; headlight technology or night vision technology?
Apr 9th, 2009 (3:32 pm)#88 ThombDbhomb: “What would use less electricity; headlight technology or night vision technology?”
Headlight technology. You wouldn’t be replacing your headlights with one pair of night vision goggles. You’d have to supply night vision goggles to everyone who has to see you, including pedestrians.
Apr 9th, 2009 (3:47 pm)#83 k-dawg said:
(to me, re:iMiev)
Are those LED hedlights?
Did they downsize the 16kwh battery?
What’s the battery warranty/chemistry?
What is the estimated cost (35k?)
FWD/RWD?
Range (80miles) / top speed (80mph?)
I ask you because you seem to be the most interested in this car, so i assume you have done your homework.
===================
CaptJack got most of these…but I” bullet point them:
Are those LED hedlights?
–yes in the showcar…buts thats all they are…no full LEDs in the production cars
Did they downsize the 16kwh battery?
–No, the 16kWh is the standard battery now…with a 20kWh battery to follow as a option
What’s the battery warranty/chemistry?
The chemistry is “a manganese-based Li-Ion battery that is cheaper and more stable than cobalt-based varieties, though it has lower energy capacity”…the warranty varies by wherever it is sold, so couldn’t tell you for sure…but it is safe to assume it will have to have the 10yr/150miles special for sure in all the CARB states.
What is the estimated cost (35k?)
This is tricky. Japan has a lot of subsidies (they are close to $15,000 compared to our $7,500), so you can really do a straight dollar conversion on the 3.9 million yen asking price (about $38K). They (like everyone) are going to price it at the maximum they feel the market can bare. The reteric/target price out of Mitsu has been ‘low to mid 30s – if they bring it the US’ pretty consistantly, so a final tag at $34,999 sounds like the ‘sweet spot’. (27,500ish after rebate I suppose)
FWD/RWD? RWD
Range (80miles) / top speed (80mph?) Officially 100 miles, 81 MPH. However the range is hella optimistic, they have had some iMievs zipping around North American roads for quite awhile, I have seen most reviews coming in the high 70s, low 80s. (Lowest I have seen is 74, highest is 88)
Apr 9th, 2009 (4:00 pm)#89 maharguitar
As I understand headlights, they are to illuminate the road for you. For people to see you, would not need to emit so much light; maybe a small beacon would suffice.
Apr 9th, 2009 (4:02 pm)Side note:
The iMiev goes into full/real production at the Mizushima factory in Kurashiki, Okayama Prefecture, in 8 weeks.
Reality>rumor…and Mitsu is certainly what I would consider to be the first ‘real’ player in the electric car business (no disrespect intended to Tesla’s 250 roadsters)
Most importantly to me, it fits my basic criteria, “A PHEV that I can get serviced within its EV range”…now if they could just firm up something a little more precise than ‘before 2012′ Not liking the thought of it being December 2011, but w/e…take what you can get I suppose.
Last production goal revision I heard (with the doubling of plant capacity at GS Yuasa) was:
2009: 2,000
2010: 8,000-10,000
2011: 20,000+
Apr 9th, 2009 (4:36 pm)#63 CaptJackSparrow:
Amen. For about the 10th time.
#82 kdawg:
GM has made the argument that it makes sense to fix the gas guzlers first from the beginning. The only problem is, they don’t sell. Especially at the current prices. I have said all along that they completely misread the market.
My sense of it is that they thought that they could get into the hybrid game and still preserve their high margin pickup/SUV orientation. The problem is that the people who were willing to pay the premium for a hybrid wanted gas mileage bragging rights and “green cred”. This is likely to continue for some time, IMHO. Ergo, the sales figures quoted by statik above. Buying cars is not all about figuring out the bottom line financial benefit. Far from it. The industry is structured far more around “want” than it is about “need”. Otherwise, as someone pointed out here long ago, all of us would be driving Kia Rios, or some such econobox.
#84 jeffhre:
You won’t regret it. Bring your appetite, or be prepared to take some leftovers with you. They serve “family style”, and give you so much delicious food you will not believe it.
#85 CaptJackSparrow:
2381#? That’s what I’m talking about!
#89 maharguitar & #91 ThombDbhomb:
They don’t need to see you coming. They will hear you via the sound generating device required to help the hard of hearing know that the silent car is coming. Sorry, couldn’t resist!
Apr 9th, 2009 (4:55 pm)CaptJack
Good call. The Opel GT was a very cool little car.
I had forgotten about those.
Good times… Good times…
Apr 9th, 2009 (4:55 pm)NPR says,
“In a move aimed at giving the battered U.S. auto industry a boost, the federal government says it will buy about 17,600 fuel-efficient vehicles from Detroit’s three automakers by June 1.”
I guess the 2-Mode hybrid Cadillac SRX won’t be ready in time for that.
Apr 9th, 2009 (5:18 pm)I thought for sure someone would say something about my last comment. It has been more than 20 minutes and nuthin’. Where did everybody go?
Apr 9th, 2009 (5:30 pm)#95 ThombDbhomb:
Too bad, they would look a lot cooler in the motorcades than those !@#$% black Suburbans.
Looks like Ford is going to sell some Escape hybrids, if you ask me. Is the Fusion hybrid actually available for sale now? If so, those too.
Don’t worry, we’re still lurking out here.
The Cobalt xfe might have a shot, but I bet the Feds won’t buy a stick.
Apr 9th, 2009 (5:40 pm)@CorvetteGuy 94
“Good times… Good times…”
lol….
My older brother had one. I remember having to push/pull that hard lever to flip the headlights……lol
Now that was a basic bare bones car……back then.
@ThombDbhomb 95
“……from Detroit’s three automakers by June 1.”
2009? 2010? 2011?
Didn’t everyone here make that suggestion last year? lol…
Maybe they are reading this forum. I recomended that both US Govt and State and Local Govt agencies do the same. The only real viable “fuel-efficient vehicles from Detroit’s three ” would be the Ford Escape Hybrid and Chevy Malibu Hybrid and the Saturn Vue Hybrid. I like the “Escapeyyyy…” (You know, how Dori said it in Nemo…)
Apr 9th, 2009 (5:56 pm)Anything to reduce carbon production while the ramp-up of Voltec vehicle production numbers is a good thing, no matter the cost.
I believe that we are so much at a far, far, worse stage of environmental rate-of-change than had been so crassly and technically-dishonestly suppressed (due to obscene greed) by petro interests, (with the bs that it was all “national security”) that:
********
ANY
********
improvements to larger vehicle fuel consumption numbers are to be respected highly, it seems to me.
In addition, one of the things that these changes (to the Caddy for 2-mode) do for us all is to allow for the efficient
******************************************************
PRODUCTION TRANSITIONS
******************************************************
for the 2-mode design platforms to possibly go EREV as well.
While the “cost of gas” is not the compelling issue here as much
as is the strong respect that buyers of 2-mode vehicles are really due, the “interests” who are to become less profitable, I assure you, are right now fighting green electric motoring “tooth and nail” with anything they can throw out there, at anyone relentlessly supporting green electric motoring, (and certainly including me).
They will fail. Their (profitability) time is currently passing into history. If fossil energy interests do not back off, well, there are far, far larger embarrassments for them in the very near future when Voltec vehicles start to arrive.
There are highly valid and excellent motivations for people to purchase larger (non-hybrid) vehicles even!
It is to re-purpose them for very few annual (carbon) miles for, say, very occasional recreational purposes (like I have with my very old Winnebago Brave). Keeping high fuel consumption vehicles away from the purposes of “daily-driving” is a very meritorious thing for some buyers to do. We should have a bumper sticker that says something like
“I drive this less than 1000 miles per year, preventing carbon”. And, back it up with the annual inspection sticker data printed onto the inspection form.
My Winnebago has a spare tire cover on the back. I had it specially lettered 30 months ago to say:
“TRIPLE”
“Carbon Offset”
“384 100-watt CFL’s”
“Given away”
(It is actually quadruple carbon offset, but that word was too big to fit).
When people accelerate past me whenever I do drive it, I have noticed that there seems to me to be a far higher respectfulness in that every single passing vehicle is certain to turn on the right turn signal for about 200 feet ahead of me before SLOWLY changing into the lane in front of me (a very clear sign of respectfullness). This never happened this way previous to my carbon offset signage.
The Brave is carbon offset for as long as the bulbs last, which generally is listed to be 7 years.
But anything that can be done to reduce carbon in the form of fuel savings (1 gallon of gas is 20 pounds of carbon dioxide), ought to be respected highly for that, instead of any dysfunctional-political definition that large vehicles have that have “hybrid” technology are just a “feel-good”-”less guilt trip” mindset by those same dysfunctional partisans.
You can even partially-offset your daily driver by getting those compact florescent bulbs in bulk and giving them out to poor folks who can not afford them, or, just go door to door in your neighborhood to give them away. (They’ll be honest and tell you that they already have converted over, but, you will still get greatly appreciated for stopping by.)
Dan Petit Austin TX.
Apr 9th, 2009 (6:27 pm)Fisker is coming after the Volt.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/04/09/fisker-plans-lower-cost-model-may-compete-with-chevy-volt-and-t/
Apr 9th, 2009 (6:41 pm)oh boy, #100
Apr 9th, 2009 (6:48 pm)#93 noel park says “I have said all along that they completely misread the market.”
Sometimes you have to wonder what’s in the drinking water at GM. A hybrid Escalade only makes logical sense if you have to buy an Escalade. But since no one has to drive one, and you could get much better mileage with any number of CUVs, even the thought of one elicits a giggle, reminding you of the ads with burly football linemen dressed up as petite ladies. It’s a veritable automotive oxymoron, the opposite of which would be a Prius with sharp angles, a sinister looking grill, and overly aggressive styling. Somehow I’m doubting that would sell either.
Personally I’m really liking the Fisker Karma. Probably not enough to put out 5K to reserve one or the 90K to buy one, but it looks like a sweet ride, and the fact it’s made by the same factory that is turning out Porshes does suggest it will be well made.
Apr 9th, 2009 (6:49 pm)#24 Jackson:
1, 2,3, 4,5,6, 7
Gets 30 mpg, Gosh!
Only works if “30″ is pronounced “Thirty”.
Glad someone is out there paying attention! Now,can someone make me an EV SUV?
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:01 pm)#98 CaptJackSparrow:
Well if the 2 mode Vue isn’t available yet, the BAS Vue and Malibu don’t put up very impressive mileage numbers. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the 4 cyl, 6 speed, Malibu does the same mileage as the “hybrid”, which has the BAS, but the old 4 speed transmission.
If the Feds want “hybrids” for symbolic reasons then maybe. If actual mileage is the issue, game over. I’m a great Chevy fan, but come on guys…..
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:10 pm)Statik #95
“Reality>rumor…and Mitsu is certainly what I would consider to be the first ‘real’ player in the electric car business (no disrespect intended to Tesla’s 250 roadsters)”
I believe they are up to about 350 and 20/week pace. While the beaches down in S. Florida haven’t started to grow yet, this is a respectable rate for a $100+K car that is still ramping. If Tesla is to be believed, they will be on par with Mitsu in 2012 (Model S included).
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:17 pm)#106 Bio
Check this out. April 20 it will be on display.
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/305567/17/
Take Care
Arch
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:20 pm)Lyle will get a ride when the Titanic docks in New York harbor and the French repay their war debt.
Captain Jack and Corvetteguy. Mother Earth news has had plans out since 1980 to convert an Opel GT to a hybrid. They cost twenty five dollars. http://www.motherearthnews.com/shopping/detail.aspx?itemnumber=1764
Apr 9th, 2009 (7:39 pm)When it comes to the Volt, Lyle is considered to be a member of the press. So if GM just let Lyle do a mule test drive, other members of the press would be upset, and they would be more apt to give the Volt negative press.
In other words, it’s best for the Volt, and hence most of us here, for GM to give Lyle a test drive only when they’re ready to give all the press a test drive.
Or to put it another way, let’s say GM gives Lyle a test drive tomorrow, and Lyle does a glowing review here on gm-volt.com. Since nobody else can corroborate Lyle’s experience, many would suspect that the review was totally biased toward GM and the Volt, and that GM is trying to cover something up, so they would be tend to be more critical when they get their test drive.
Bottom line: It’s best for everyone if GM waits to get the car running near perfect, and then gives all the press a chance for a test-drive around the same time.
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:01 pm)Lots of talk about the iMiev on this thread. Let’s see how much gasoline you would use.
For those interested in BEVs, most people say they will use a regular ICE car for longer trips. This would either be a second car, or a rental. Let’s say that second car is a Toyota Corolla at 35 MPG highway.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
iMiev/Corolla ……….. 39
Prius ………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:03 pm)Everybody has a price.
It is time this forum bribes GM mgmt for a Volt ride.
They seem to only understand greenmail.
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:06 pm)#98 (or therabouts as I have posts in moderation)
ThombDbhomb said:
NPR says,
“In a move aimed at giving the battered U.S. auto industry a boost, the federal government says it will buy about 17,600 fuel-efficient vehicles from Detroit’s three automakers by June 1.”
I guess the 2-Mode hybrid Cadillac SRX won’t be ready in time for that.
==================
Detroit Free Press has a article up about it, if you (or anyone cares to read it)
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090409/AUTO01/904090483/1148/Obama+administration+to+buy+17+600+Big+Three+fuel+efficient+vehicles
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:07 pm)Impressive performance on the VUE.
Apr 9th, 2009 (8:25 pm)#108 koz said:
Statik #95
“Reality>rumor…and Mitsu is certainly what I would consider to be the first ‘real’ player in the electric car business (no disrespect intended to Tesla’s 250 roadsters)”
I believe they are up to about 350 and 20/week pace. While the beaches down in S. Florida haven’t started to grow yet, this is a respectable rate for a $100+K car that is still ramping. If Tesla is to be believed, they will be on par with Mitsu in 2012 (Model S included).
======================
Your right, I always forget to add on the /per week numbers over the last reported total production for Tesla…my bad.
I personally think Tesla is not going to be on par by any stretch, no chance at all. Tesla is way, way behind their own predictions let alone keeping up Mitsu. I don’t think Tesla could even get that much Lithium, especially considering the hundred of millions Mitsu/GS Yuasa is pouring into the infrastructure to just get up to 20,000/year capacity in 18 months.
Technically, Tesla has always been behind Mitsu (and still are). Even last year at this time Mitsu had about 100 cars out in corporate Japan and in testing…I guess it depends on your definition of what constitutes a customer. There is now about 300 in Japan, and probably at least another couple hundred scattered all over the place in other countries (but mostly with utilities companies…dunno why, guess its good PR for everyone).
It will all be moot in another two months anywhoo, the line is expected to churn at about 300/month.
Of interest, they have been running a mock line/doing a limited run for about 16 months….which any sane person would realize is the stage GM SHOULD BE AT NOW!
Apr 9th, 2009 (10:51 pm)Not sure if this will compete with the Lexus RX 450h, which gets 28 city and 27 highway, but the Lexus apparently starts at about $45,000 and goes up. I expect even if GM offers this with the two mode transmission, it will still be able to tow more, but get worse gas mileage.
Apr 9th, 2009 (11:51 pm)For those that can afford to dump $50K into a vehicle that eeks out only a few more MPG, great. But to the real world these are just excuses to sell gigantic SUVs to rich soccer moms, and make them feel good.
Ridiculous waste of money, you’d think an auto giant on financial life support would realize these things?
What was that about dinosaurs refusing to evolve?
Apr 10th, 2009 (4:01 am)Noel Park #107
Well if the 2 mode Vue isn’t available yet, the BAS Vue and Malibu don’t put up very impressive mileage numbers. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the 4 cyl, 6 speed, Malibu does the same mileage as the “hybrid”, which has the BAS, but the old 4 speed transmission.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-malibu-hybrid-review.html
Not that the Malibu hybrid is a vast improvement, it does get 26mpg city vs 22mpg city for the 6-speed. This 18% improvement should be even more exaggerated in stop-n-go traffic that a lot of 4-door sedans find theirselves in. The 2009 base hybrid lists for $850 more than the base 6-speed, but this differential is distorted by some extras on the base 6-speed. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why carmakers (especially GM) insist on only positioning their fuel saving features with higher end trim packages. THIS IS PURE IDIOCY NOT TO AT LEAST OFFER FUEL EFFICIENT POWERTRAINS WITH A BASE TRIM!!! This braindead thinking is what worries me about the Volt. The GM marketers treat real fuel efficiency like a red-headed stepchild. Try finding the city mpg rating for the Malibu hybrid on the Chevy website. Try finding a GM hybrid available for a test drive. It’s like the GM marketers only see value in hybrid greenwashing but a liability in actually selling the vehicles.
Apr 10th, 2009 (4:25 am)Statik #116
Certainly no point to discussing overall production capabilities or buying power of Tesla vs Mitsu. I’ll believe 20K/year iMIEVs/year when it happens, just as I’ll believe the features of the Model S when they get a “real” prototype on the road. I’m surprised you stated a Lithium constraint for Tesla. Do you really believe they will have difficulty getting batteries?
Incidentally, I do think Tesla will get funding one way or another and some form of Model S will be produced.
Apr 10th, 2009 (6:04 am)[...] General Motors is expected to offer a power train Two-Mode Hybrid Cadillac SRX but the exact release date is still undisclosed. This two-mode Hybrid Cadillac is set up to be powerful and designed to be fuel efficient. This is expected do 0-60 mph in 7.3 seconds and return 27 mpg in the city and 30 on the highway with its combination direct-injection V6 and twin 55-kilowatt electric motors. [via gm-volt] [...]
Apr 10th, 2009 (6:41 am)That is a great looking vehicle.
-1
Apr 10th, 2009 (8:17 am)Dumb. Put in a Voltec drivetrain and I’m in…
Apr 10th, 2009 (9:48 am)#120 koz said:
Statik #116
Certainly no point to discussing overall production capabilities or buying power of Tesla vs Mitsu. I’ll believe 20K/year iMIEVs/year when it happens, just as I’ll believe the features of the Model S when they get a “real” prototype on the road. I’m surprised you stated a Lithium constraint for Tesla. Do you really believe they will have difficulty getting batteries?
Incidentally, I do think Tesla will get funding one way or another and some form of Model S will be produced.
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I believe the Mitsu 20K a year quote. Because they have a track record here. And I have seen pictures of the factory…and they are actually producing pack today, hehe.
On top of that, they are actually increasing volumes capacity as time ticks away…where generally the inverse is true. So far Mitsu has underpromised/overdelivered. Originally was going to be 2,000 in 2010, and 8-10K in 2011.
Apr 10th, 2009 (7:06 pm)#17 nasaman
What you are stating is incorrect
The “potentially” upcoming 2-mode VUE is equipped with a 3.6L engine dubbed RPO- LCS
Apr 10th, 2009 (7:34 pm)I think GM ought to try to make their small and mid size SUVs have front ends that look similar to this Subaru Tribeca.
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/top10/08.top10.suvs.best.residual.value/08.subaru.tribeca.500.jpg
I don’t particularly care if a SUV has a super “unique look” to it. A little style and sleekness is fine with me. No need to overdo it. In an SUV, I think people are looking for rock solid quality and reliability, a good looking interior and the usual features of carrying cargo and maybe pulling a boat or something.
GM should focus a LOT on the SMALL SUV market. Then the mid-size SUVs and perhaps one or two big SUV models. The small SUVs look like the “sweet spot” part of the market that GM has GOTTA start to getting some bestsellers and award winners in. High volume, worldwide selling models. Make one REAL good one at a time and THEN move on to other ones.
Apr 10th, 2009 (7:58 pm)I think GM did a pretty good job with the exterior design of the Saturn Vue. The front end looks fine. GM might could do something a little different with the tail lights though.
http://www.vehix.com/new-cars/new-car-gallery/saturn/2008/vue/
The key is to make the exterior stylish looking but not TOO stylish. Subtle styling. Maybe a little like this Lexus LF-Xh concept in the rear.
http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2007/10/17-lexus-lf-xh-concept/Lexus-LF-Xh-Concept-2-lg.jpg
Not too much, not too little. That’s how good art is. A good artist with a trained eye knows what to add to the painting and what he should leave out.
Of course, I can definitely visualize a Voltec powertrain in a future small SUV by GM, whether it’s a Chevy or a Saturn. Maybe soon. Who knows?
Apr 11th, 2009 (6:13 am)Statik #124
“So far Mitsu has underpromised/overdelivered. Originally was going to be 2,000 in 2010, and 8-10K in 2011.
”
Overdelivered on announced production goals? Can you do that?
Sorry to be a PIA, but I do agree they are looking most likely of all car manufacturers to hit 20k plug-in EV of any flavour. I’m happy to see their commitment to the EV market but I’m skeptical of their design. It just seems very compromised, at least for the NAM. I believe their is a lot of pent up demand for a plug-in EV, so I suppose first out might get a lot of those sales.
Apr 11th, 2009 (8:18 am)#128 (or so, lol) koz says:
Sorry to be a PIA, but I do agree they are looking most likely of all car manufacturers to hit 20k plug-in EV of any flavour. I’m happy to see their commitment to the EV market but I’m skeptical of their design. It just seems very compromised, at least for the NAM. I believe their is a lot of pent up demand for a plug-in EV, so I suppose first out might get a lot of those sales.
=============================
Your very right.
The design is very, uh, how do you say…incongruent with the North American Market. Just given the way it was rolled out, and it was always ‘maybe’ for NA, or ‘later,’ or never even in left hand drive until a couple days ago…I’m wagering it was never intended to come here at all.
The unbelievable demand increase for EVs ever since $4 gas, the $7,500 rebate and Mitsu’s very sudden decision to draw a line in the sand, put their flag down and say ‘we are the company that is going to build EVs’ has brought this to market.
No way the iMiev2 exists here…the platform has to be reworked (if not completely changed) when there is competition in the future, however, I think it will be 2014 or later before any of us can go out and compare EVs for sale at our local dealerships (at least in the sub 35k bracket)
Apr 21st, 2009 (12:46 pm)With a typical driving pattern
__________________
You’ve had several months now to collect data, providing a real-world example rather than those generic assumptions.
So… let’s see it.
SMTD