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Kill the Bad GM to Save Good the GM

March 28th, 2009 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

The Obama administration has made it clear they wish to avoid bankruptcy for GM. “We need to preserve a U.S. auto industry,” said Obama “We will provide them with some help.”

The Auto Task Force has wound down its discussion on Friday icluding meeting with Rick Wagoner and it is expected Mr. Obama will make an announcement on Monday.

Reportedly he will extend more short term aid to GM and Chrysler with a new deadline to break the negotiation deadlock with the UAW and bondholders.  This deadline is expected to be short, a matter of weeks, with the threat of bankruptcy in the event they don’t concede.

An interesting piece spells out a scenario being considered to handle such a bankruptcy.

The premise is to split GM in two. One piece would be the “good GM” containing the most successful and promosing components like Chevrolet (and the Volt), Cadillac, GMC trucks, and Buick. The bad piece would contain failed brands like Hummer and Saturn, and include bondholder debts and UAW VEBA.

The company could then go into bankruptcy court and liquididate ithe bad half while allowing the good half to rapidly emerge from protection. Debtholders could then be given stock in the new company plus proceeds from the liquidated half.

The remaining new company would be politically popular since as the government would be funding the bankruptcy, they could promote the fact to taxpayers that the new GM is viable. Consumers would be assured it is safe to buy vehilces from them.

The setting of bankruptcy court also could force the unions to accept concessions in response to threat of their contracts simply being disposed of.

Either way, Volt it seems is go.

Source (MSNBC) and (New York Times)

Posted by: Lyle

134 Responses to “Kill the Bad GM to Save Good the GM”


  1. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Now we are talkin!!  

    (Quote)


  2. Guy Incognito
    Vote -1 Vote +1Guy Incognito     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    Ah yes, the ‘good’ half & the ‘bad’ half.

    When the ‘good half’ emerges from its liberation (liquidation) of the ‘bad’ half, with all its model names intact, who will build these cars?  

    (Quote)


  3. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:11 am

    If this step is needed then so be it  

    (Quote)


  4. newbie
    Vote -1 Vote +1newbie     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:17 am

    more focus on volt….go volt!  

    (Quote)


  5. xed
    Vote -1 Vote +1xed     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    Well; it’s not like my GM stock can go much lower.

    go for it if it can help restore a healthy american car industry.  

    (Quote)


  6. Vegasguy
    Vote -1 Vote +1Vegasguy     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Boy, this sounds like what they did with the housing market. Just hope the bad debts go away and its business as usual.  

    (Quote)


  7. User Name
    Vote -1 Vote +1User Name     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:27 am

    Kill the Bad GM to Save Good the GM
    What a great name for the article Lyle.

    This piece would be more aptly named “Kill the Bad GM (& the UAW) to Save Good the GM”.
    That’s really whats it all about.  

    (Quote)


  8. wtiger
    Vote -1 Vote +1wtiger     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    Seems like it could really work. hack off the junk while at the same time giving them a huge amount of leverage over the unions. Personally I don’t think they should use the leverage over the unions and just eliminate them at all costs. The way it is right now all the money getting pumped into them to keep them alive is like pouring water into a bucket that has no bottom.  

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  9. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am

    This seems to make sense to do. GM is under the crushing weight of legacy debt and getting rid of it provides breathing room.

    I wonder what will happen to ex-employee pensions and their health care funding… something that the United States government should have been providing all its citizens for years like the rest of the civilized world. Should the U.S. government roll it all up and start a national health care system? Some may say it smacks of socialism, but there is something to be said about a populace not having to worry about something as trivial as getting sick and landing in hospital, which has lead many families into bankruptcy.

    Living and working in a state of this type of fear is not productive.  

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  10. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am

    #7

    If that is what is needed so be it. If the UAW can not accept what is [as a complete package] the going rate at the competition then they must go.
    I do have compasion for those who are retired [65 and older] and think their pension needs to be eliminated in a gradual method [say at 10% per year over a 10 year time plan] May have to be a government expense.  

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  11. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:47 am

    GMC?? What’s so “good” about that? There was a time when a GMC truck could be seen as a heavier duty piece than a Chevy, but not for many years. It’s just a badge engineered Chevy (or vice-versa). I guess they keep it around to give Buick/Pontiac (RIP) dealers something else to sell.

    It’s a whole duplicative product line, with all of the duplicative costs associated thereto. Why not throw it overboard too? If there is going to be a big dealer shakeout anyway, why not let them all be Chevy/Buick (/Pontiac?) dealers and eliminate another whole level of duplication? I have never seen stand alone Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealerships as very strong sisters in the best of times. The one in our town folded about a year ago, even before the total meltdown.

    Other than that, bring it on!  

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  12. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:49 am

    #9 Gary:

    I totally agree.  

    (Quote)


  13. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Free Universal Health Care – can do, if you want your tax rates to go to about 70%. Things like this are not free……………

    Why do you think GM is going broke? It is all these costs they have, that have nothing to do with building and selling cars. The same thing applies to the government.

    JMHO  

    (Quote)


  14. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Wait till someone notices that the Volt is part of the “bad half”.  

    (Quote)


  15. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Data point: I know a few people personally that have lived in the U.K. and the U.S. as adults for many years. They tell me that health care in the U.K. sucks compared to the U.S.  

    (Quote)


  16. Jason M. Hendler
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jason M. Hendler     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    What about all those dealerships that need to be shut down? Will they fall under the bad half?  

    (Quote)


  17. SteveF
    Vote -1 Vote +1SteveF     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    I like this plan. This is most workable plan I have heard so far. Will be interesting to see if this goes forward. In addition, it seem there are a great amount of UAW slamming here. I am no big fan of unions but real problem is the bondholders. The bondholder are the ones that are not being flexable. But moving the bondholders to the bad GM would be good way to handle them.  

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  18. cybereye
    Vote -1 Vote +1cybereye     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I’m not so sure what the full story behind. It sound like GM is thinking of spinoff of GM stock. It be two company one that in trouble and the other is doing “ok” as “the good”. Maybe down the road when “the good” get back into great shape and the other company that got out of the bankruptcy. “The good” have the right to buy back the company that was in the bankruptcy. The another way is to let the bad company just go to busted as a cut from cancer from the body.

    GTX @ 14

    Many know the GM overall plan about what GM want to keep Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC trucks, and Buick. The Bad is with Hummer, Saturn and any factories or operations it needs to ditch.
    The Volt is part of the Chevrolet as “the good”. Once the spinoff start. “The good” is not all that great at first. heck, it could fail as well.

    Jason M Hendler @16

    Whatever the brands the dealer is in will fall in the “the good” or “the Bad”. Some dealer may just change or break off the brands they are in.  

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  19. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    I’m glad I’m not at one of the dealerships under the “bad” umbrella. No one talks about how many jobs will be lost when hundreds or thousands of dealerships close nationwide.  

    (Quote)


  20. cybereye
    Vote -1 Vote +1cybereye     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    I believe it all a play in fear factor to get the bondholders and the UAW to solve the problem faster. The Plan is not set and it just an idea at this point.  

    (Quote)


  21. The Grump
    Vote -1 Vote +1The Grump     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Just be sure and include Rick Wagoner in the GM “bad half” staled for disposal. He was and is the prime architect behind the “Bad GM” we know today. Famous Wagoner quotes:

    “Just give the UAW whatever they want. I have a headache.”
    “What foreign competition?”
    “We’ll make up the losses on the new line of SUV’s next year.”
    “Who would wanty to buy a Prius anyway? ”
    “Mr Obama, either tax the hell out of gasoline, or I will end the Volt – now”

    I volunteer for Wagoner’s firing squad. No remorse here, just doing my duty to America.  

    (Quote)


  22. Vincent
    Vote -1 Vote +1Vincent     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    It simply must be done.
    Most of us knew this a long time ago.
    New management must be in place.
    Bad management must be gone too.
    One guys name rimes with Dick.
    All the Saturn dealers can unite and invest to keep the name and company going. They are just GM clones and it will be easy to buy parts from GM. Then GM can actually make money on Saturn for once.  

    (Quote)


  23. N Riley
    Vote -1 Vote +1N Riley     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    Bad company, good company. Who gets to determine that?  

    (Quote)


  24. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    #13 Jim I & #15 carcus1:

    It has been shown over and over again that every major “industrial” democracy including, but not limited to the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Canada, Scandinavia, Spain, Italy and Australia, has much more universal health care coverage than we do, spends less per capita on health care, and has better outcomes.

    The rest is urban legend and insurance industry lobbying and spin.

    Have the UK people who don’t like their system do without for awhile, and see how they like it then.  

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  25. Greg Simpson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Greg Simpson     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    This sort of managed bankruptcy is what they should have done from the beginning. It would be bad news for the PBGC and the retirees it protects, but that’s probably inevitable anyhow. It’s just a matter of how much government money is going to be thrown away first.  

    (Quote)


  26. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    #23 N Riley:

    I do! Judge, jury, and executioner, Bwahhahahahah!!!

    Or maybe The Grump. statik? Or you can do it if you want. I think that we would all come up with about 99% the same answers. The handwriting has been on the wall for quite awhile.  

    (Quote)


  27. kent beuchert
    Vote -1 Vote +1kent beuchert     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Eeverybody (except the union-enriched Dems) knows that the UAW is the bad GM. Pretending that “restructuring” will save the company is pure hogwash. If that was all that was required, it would have been done years ago. And most of this “restructuring” is simply an acknowledgement of reduced sales. Its the reduced sales that is requiring downsizing, not the other way around. No company prospers by getting smaller and doing less business. That’s oxymoronic. And with the UAW price fixers around, even downsizing costs a lot of money. The newest fraud is that they are claiming that the UAW labor rates are comparable with the Japanese workers in this country. That’s totally false, but even if it were, someone better tell brainless Obama that there are Koreans, Chinese, etc. etc. that are beating the Japanese manufacturer’s brains in and will destroy the Japanese automakers next. How about forcing those UAW “workers” to compete against free American labor? I see that they pay tens of millions to politicians to forestall class action lawsuits that can easily prove the UAW to be non-competitive, a restraint of free trade, and engaged in price fixing across all three automakers. Even I could win that court case.
    GM’s financial problems didn’t begin last year. They began 40 years ago when their unionized production faced foreign competition for the first time since the 1930s. That dolt in the White House is simply parrotting the company line that blames everyone except those at fault.  

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  28. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    #27 kent beuchert:

    And the end game is what, pay American workers the same as Chinese?  

    (Quote)


  29. cybereye
    Vote -1 Vote +1cybereye     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    noel park @ 29

    Or the dollar fall down to the point that may feel like a chinese payment value per labor force.  

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  30. canehdian
    Vote -1 Vote +1canehdian     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    UAW (and CAW here) are the main problem.
    I understand the need for unions, but it’s just ridiculous.
    Some of these workers get $80/hour to do easier work than people who get $20/hr with other companies, and the $20/hr job requires higher qualifications.

    It’s also the workers’ fault in the end – they know they’ve had it too easy forever, raking in $$$ for easy work, and they don’t want to give it up.
    Well guess what.. you’ll get a pay cut either way. Half your salary or none of your salary? Take your pick.  

    (Quote)


  31. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    13 Jim I: Free Universal Health Care – can do, if you want your tax rates to go to about 70%. Things like this are not free…

    I live in Canada. I can assure you that my tax rate is not 70%.

    I bit of socialism is good for you. :-) Ever donate to the United Way? Salvation Army? Any other charity to help people? That’s a form of socialism.  

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  32. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    30 Canehdian: Some of these workers get $80/hour to do easier work than people who get $20/hr with other companies

    The workers don’t get paid $80 per hour. That is a half truth propogated by the media. It costs $80 per hour per active employee in order to pay that worker, PLUS support all retired workers.

    Another half truth propogated by the typically negative media: The auto companies getting “bailouts”… the banks got bailouts. The auto companies simply asked for loans, which implies a payback at some point, not just free money for nothing.  

    (Quote)


  33. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    The idea that the government is supposed to take care of you from cradle to grave is socialism. It’s for people who don’t care about the U.S. constitution, or freedom, or liberty, or self – determination. It’s for the weak minded, weak spirited huddled masses that want to believe government is the answer to everything. I sincerely hope we Americans will not let fear and false promises lead us into giving up our republic for a “socialist democracy”.  

    (Quote)


  34. Starman
    Vote -1 Vote +1Starman     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

    The problem, there is no good half. They are both unprofitable business models.  

    (Quote)


  35. stas peterson
    Vote -1 Vote +1stas peterson     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Since Mercedes and VW are based and operate in “free” Socialist healthcare countries they must be profitable… NOT.

    Since Toyota and Nissan are based and both operate in “free” Socialist healthcare countries they must be profitable… NOT.

    If Canada has “‘free” Socialist healthcare and GM operates in Canada then it must be profitable there… NOT.

    There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. TANSTAAFL !  

    (Quote)


  36. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Gary Says:
    The auto companies simply asked for loans, which implies a payback at some point, not just free money for nothing.

    LOL….
    GM is not going to profit on any products ESPECIALLY the Volt for more than 5-6 years. So what do you think will happen when they are asked to pay the loan back? Where’s the money going to come from? Another loan from some other government? Maybe OPEC? So when they will not be able to pay it back is it still a loan or a “Bailout”?

    For all the Universal healthcare advocates, give it up. Many people will NOT want to be taxed so the Octuplets Mom can have daycare and medical care for all her 14 kids she did not need. Put your money where your mouth is and send her some money to help with her nanny fees, healthcare for all 14 kids AND Her as well as welfare support because she does not work. I sure as fukc do not want to be taxed more to support an idiot like her and many more idiots like her. So to he!! with Universal healthcare aka Socialism Healthcare. As I see it healthcare is just like anything else you can buy. It has a cost and it is a product/service.  

    (Quote)


  37. stas peterson
    Vote -1 Vote +1stas peterson     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    I’m sorry private Charity is not Socialism!  

    (Quote)


  38. Zach
    Vote -1 Vote +1Zach     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    As a few others have stated, I too believe it’s largely the UAW at fault.

    I don’t know all the details, but it sounds too good to be true to be paying for all the retired workers.  

    (Quote)


  39. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    34 Starman Says:

    The problem, there is no good half. They are both unprofitable business models.

    Words right out of my mouth. Nice…..  

    (Quote)


  40. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    The title should just say….
    “Kill the Bad GM”  

    (Quote)


  41. GM Pwnage
    Vote -1 Vote +1GM Pwnage     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    You can cut, slice and dice this failed corp any way you want but Americans are not stupid, they will always know that this “future” viable company rose from the ashes of self-made failure. GM has failed and everyone knows it. At least with the internet this disaster will never be forgotten. Every future GM vehicle will be awash with taxpayer handouts. These handouts where never earned or deserved. An American travesty of ginormous proportions.  

    (Quote)


  42. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    How sad. And I thought the last thread was bad, LOL. Maybe I’ll try it again Monday. Bye.  

    (Quote)


  43. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    28 noel park Says:

    And the end game is what, pay American workers the same as Chinese?

    Well ….yes. As many of you have stated to “Level the playing field”, have you even thought of where the playing field is? Why do you insist the playing field is here in the US? The playing field is “GLOBAL” and if you can’t compete in the “Level Playing Field” you are doomed to fail. That is the position GM is in. They can not play the game and can not win. Why? Because of the inherent cost of operations here in the US. Yeah so outside the US has poor working environment but guess what, it’s in the “GLOBAL” playing field. If you can’t compete, your doomed to fail. Quit bicthin about a “Level Playing Field” because it is level. If GM were to be only selling here in the US then sure, I would say level the playing field but they are not therfore the argument has no merrit a all…PERIOD.  

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  44. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Company funded pensions are much like the U.S. social security system. They are set up (or get mutilated) in such a way that they are only sustainable if the base continues to grow (see pyramid scheme). This is the problem that GM ( and the U.S. social security system) now find themselves in. If the company shrinks there is no way they can fulfill their obligations to retirees.

    Individuals would be better off if they didn’t get “too committed” to a company and planned for their own retirement and health care.  

    (Quote)


  45. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    44 carcus1 Says:

    Individuals would be better off if they didn’t get “too committed” to a company and planned for their own retirement and health care.

    So true. Each individual should open their own type of retirement. Considering the many instances where folks lose their retirement because a company goes belly up, it would be wise to “Look out for yourself”. And we all know Social Security is going to be be a black hole. I think it should be a requirement for employers that an employee open their own IRA of some sort before getting hired or at least a month or two after getting hired and it would follow them wherever they work.  

    (Quote)


  46. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    noel park #24: The real problem is that the population of the USA is just about ten times that of Canada or France, so you are lokking at a HUGE section of new government. Medicare and the VA are both government run medical agencies. Would you like to see them run healthcare for the entire country?

    And lets not forget that one of the reasons our healthcare is so expensive is that our legal system needs major reform, to stop these petty lawsuits. The physicians are forced to practice “defensive medicine” which does indeed drive up the costs for all of us.

    Gary #31: Big difference. I get to choose if I want to donate to a charity. I do NOT get to choose if I pay a tax……….

    Sorry for taking this thread off topic like this….  

    (Quote)


  47. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Ouch!
    As a GM UAW retiree I find this list of postings to be a sad indicator. I don’t know what you all do for a living or if you have ever been promised anything but my hope for you is that you earn a good living wage and that you receive all that you are promised.

    Good luck folks!  

    (Quote)


  48. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    #30 canehdian – You have bought into hilariously inaccurate propaganda if you think that ANY assembly line workers make $80/hr (about $160K/year). This is one of the more easily debunked lies.  

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  49. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    #47 Ken H – Of course most of the people slamming the UAW do not make nearly as much as they wish. Most of the union-hate here is pure envy, as well as fantasy role playing (you TOO might be rich someday!)  

    (Quote)


  50. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    ENOUGH!

    To all you GM bashers:

    GM’s Buick Division makes the highest quality vehicles on the planet.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20090320/BUSINESS06/903200331/1019/BUSINESS/Buick+tops+Lexus+in+dependability+ratings

    And they are GORGEOUS automobiles. Go look at them in the flesh. You’ll see. GM designers are hands down the most talented in the business.

    And Chevrolet is acheiving its goals with the Volt.

    I am convinced that it is GM that will lead the entire world into the future of transportation. And it is starting with the Chevy Volt.

    GM has seen the light big time.

    They deserve the support of every American.  

    (Quote)


  51. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    The UAW is evil! It’s all the UAW’s fault! Oh, except GM is doing much worse than Ford, despite nearly identical UAW contracts. This should tell anyone who hasn’t been lobotomized by AM radio that corporate mismanagement is much of the problem here.  

    (Quote)


  52. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    47 Ken H Says:

    my hope for you is that you earn a good living wage and that you receive all that you are promised.

    My hope for all retired UAW employees is that you are taken care of in some way after the US government screws everything up. I pray that you all get everything you have worked so hard for. The last thing I want to see is you folks that have “Paid your dues” do not lose all that you have worked for so hard. I fear the UAW may ruin it for you, if not the government.  

    (Quote)


  53. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    50 PLJ Says:

    They deserve the support of every American.

    And they are getting the support of EVERY Tax paying american via these obsurd loans. Your claims whether valid or not are obviously NOT what is helping GM isn’t it? If that in itself can’t get GM back on their feet then they’re dead. Subaru is killing everyone and look where they are on the list. So what’s the point of that chart for your argument?

    And Chevrolet is acheiving its goals with the Volt.

    And can you show me any figures of sales or quality for this argument? Quit compariong recent historical data with “What is percived to be…”

    I don’t knock the Volt. I think it’s a great theoretical principle of applied technology. I just think GM is going blow it AGAIN. Hopefully someone will pickup the pieces of it and bring it to fruition. I believe in the technology, the delivery and the company is highly questionable.  

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  54. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    I hope this all gets settled soon wth GM. GM will die, good or bad, if they cannot move past the possibility of bankrupsy. As a previous Olds owner and now a Saturn owner I cannot afford another loss on rolling stock. As a dedicated/vested GM consumer, I dont blame anyone for waiting to buy and perhaps shopping elsewhere.  

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  55. unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1unni     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    solutions ? My thoughts:-)

    1) Public Health care system ( every one goes here and every one pays medical insurance ) and coexisting private sector : if you have money then you go here.

    2) Pharma care : medicine free for seniors/disabled.

    3) Old age pension for seniors who worked more than 20+ yrs and paid taxes properly : Not a big money but to make sure they can live decently ( ex: $1200 = 500 for old age housing , $700 monthly expense )

    4) normalization Import tax : ex: a product in country A costs $y and US its $x for production, all the goods from A will be charged an import normalization tax based on the difference so that making it in US and other place should not get a competitive advantage on money just by making it there. Govt should appoint a body and the body revises the rate every year based on the conditions.

    5) Funding for local industries: low interest loans : helps people to build new industries.

    off beat : Google founders invests in tesla  

    (Quote)


  56. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    From the article:

    The premise is to split GM in two. One piece would be the “good GM” containing the most successful and promosing components like Chevrolet (and the Volt), Cadillac, GMC trucks, and Buick. The bad piece would contain failed brands like Hummer and Saturn, and include bondholder debts and UAW VEBA.

    The company could then go into bankruptcy court and liquididate ithe bad half while allowing the good half to rapidly emerge from protection.
    ======================
    So….go bankrupt, severe off all the bad pieces without consequences (pesky dealers, suppliers and overbranding). Break the union, force the debtholders into capitulation…then fund the good pieces out of bankruptcy and then reintroduce a lean/mean, non burdened GM?

    /shocker

    …the GSB (government sponsored bankruptcy) lives on! Too bad it took 5 months and XXX billion dollars to get them to realize the only real solution (imo) to either get everyone to bow down to their demands, or go bankrupt…all we need now is to get the Chrysler merger back online, and it is november again, lol  

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  57. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    If you depend on ANY company for your retirement, your really have no excuse to complain when they let you down. A retirement is what you saved for yourself while working. You can’t count on anything whether it be pension, social security, etc. to be there. The only thing you can count on is what you put aside for your own future. I can’t imagine leaving that up to a corporation or the government.  

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  58. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    I think it is unfortunate that GM (and all the auto companies) made promises of pensions and health care for their employees at a time when we did not have competition from the rest of the world. GM needs to get their costs down and their employees are part of the cost. The bond holders are another part that to some extent exist because of the promises to the employees. I don’t blame the employees, it is just a bad situation. I think there may not be any choice, as many of you have made clear for months, execpt bankruptsy. The pensions will be covered through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), a US Government corporation.

    Universal healthcare is needed because private industry wants at least 15% profit to take a crap and the US Citizens can’t aford it anymore. The US Governent seems to be able to provide services for a 3% markup. The biggest reason is that it is a cost that companies can no longer afford and remain competetive in the world. I saw recently where IBM was offering to help US Citizens move to India, and other countries, but they would have to accept the prevaling wage there. This is the future of this country, either get competetive, or see all jobs exported that can be.  

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  59. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    I really like the idea a lot. Separating the divisions has tremendous potential even to make the non-performing divisions “work it all out” and succeed, or, they fail. An idea I had while reading the story is to consider, if feasible, union members could request to make up any current financial differences with divisional stock in those non-performing divisions, so that where there may be an all-out “grass roots” effort to somehow make those divisions more performing.
    Southwest airlines stayed performing with employee participation.
    Hummers could be re-badged to sell to military around the world in a greater economy of scale, and, be made BEV’s too.
    The other divisions might even be made available to utilize non-Voltec electric propulsion systems from startup EV/BEV companies, so that there could be faster EV/BEV production capacities.
    They could be sold without the powertrains/fuel systems/radiator/ A/C/tranny (include final-drive and axles, brakes), (these are known as “Gliders”), for smaller startup electric powertrain manufacturers to themselves make plug-ins or BEV’s. Gliders would be sold “as-is” with no warranties at all from those divisions (excepting SRS, the air bags).
    I don’t see any image-conflict with doing it that way. It could likely save more jobs, and, even maintain those valuable infrastructures to bring about more EV/BEV jobs.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.  

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  60. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    56 statik Says:

    You are too generous. GM needs to just fold completely and respawn as a 100% new company void of all Union garbage. Then they can open ne plants that have the capabilities of producing many differen’t models just as Ford has outside the US.

    Of course many here will say “But there will be millions of lost jojbs…”
    No there will only be lost jobs from direct laborers from within GM. The rest of the “Suppliers” should have seen all this coming 1.5 years ago. What’s keeping them in business now? Who’s buying their products if GM is not producing or has ramped down to almost nothing? They should have all made adjustments to be self sustaining. This is where the pathetic arguments on how many jobs will be lost. All the “Loans” are doing is giving “Welafre” to all the supplier businesses. The writing has been on the wall, everyone has said it and if they did not ADAPT, then it;s their fault and their demise. Thus goes the free market path.  

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  61. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    To WarrenPeace @ 53 who says “Subaru is killing everyone”.

    I don’t think so. Percertage wise they are doing better than most in this downturn, but “killing?”

    Come on.

    I think your anger is clouding your statements.  

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  62. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    Hummers are big sellers in Iraq. Proven to deal with the fine roads that are now there.  

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  63. Lurtz
    Vote -1 Vote +1Lurtz     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    VEBA – On the one hand, this is a huge screwing of workers (“Vandalize Employee Benefits Again”). On the other hand, it may be moot if the Obama administration follows through with a modern universal health insurance coverage. …That’s a big “IF.”

    Though doing one without the other leaves the little guy getting the shaft. GM agreed to fund the health insurance fund; then unilaterally underfunded it and now will get off scot-free, without even a token gesture of support from Uncle Timmy Geithner, who is apparently too busy filling his Wall Street fat-cat friends’ jacuzzis with hundreds of billions in bailouts and hundreds of millions in personal “performance bonuses” for destroying the American economy..  

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  64. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    On the Volt … laudable task but the US will need a strong commitment to energy independence from foreign oil to make it work effectively and save GM.
    Another idea … do you think GM could offer the Volt in a plug-in ALL electric vehicle also? I understand single mode all electric vehicles can be produced with a lower price point.
    2 Volts, 2 choices, what do you think?  

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  65. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    61 PLJ Says:

    OK you’re right and I was “over exagerating” but they are up over most considering their position on the chart.  

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  66. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    Side note: Regardless of the decision: Bailout, capitulation, straight buying everyone out, gov’t sponsored bankruptcy, old fashion C11, C7, (whatever)….just make it already.

    No one can move forward in this quagmire…(including the Volt program), everyone and everything is paralyzed, no one knows if they are standing on sand or stone, how can you even deal with the day to day business of running a car company (much less planning for the future).

    GM has almost totally shuttered R&D, let go hundreds (thousands?) of engineers and all future projects/platforms have been cancelled or put on indefinite hiatus for the past 5 months. They are falling farther behind everyday as their current lineup ages and becomes more obsolete…and thats a problem.

    /fish or cut bait, do whatever you are going to do ASAP…no more handing out rent money  

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  67. Adrian
    Vote -1 Vote +1Adrian     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Should of been done many months ago.

    One thought on the Volt… I think the price point could really hurt the car. Why? Because it is a Chevy brand. If you want to charge $40k, put it under Buick. Buick buyers are the only ones who could afford it. Typical Chevy buyers can’t buy $40k small cars (even with rebates to reduce to cost).  

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  68. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Ken #64,
    See #59, I really think so. But see what you think about my idea at #59.
    Dan Petit Austin TX  

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  69. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    57 Jake
    Took your advice … unfortunately I retired before the Stock Market crash so …. well …. I’m hunkered down just in case GM fails. I’ll be OK just a little less active and less consuming.  

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  70. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    #51 Jim in PA says “The UAW is evil! It’s all the UAW’s fault! Oh, except GM is doing much worse than Ford, despite nearly identical UAW contracts.”

    Thank you. I was wondering how long it was going to take before someone made this rather obvious point. Game. Set. Match. Now let’s move on to discussing something more productive.

    #56 statik says “the GSB (government sponsored bankruptcy) lives on!”

    In theory. But as a practical matter it’s unlikely given the amount of DIP financing that would be required. Do you have any estimate of what that would be? More likely the government would decide that it’s better to provide less financing outside bankruptcy than more in it, which essentially recognizes that even with a reorganization GM will still have problems.

    GM doesn’t want a bankruptcy. The UAW doesn’t want one. And the bondholders don’t want one either. At this point the game is called “Chicken”.  

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  71. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    64 Ken H

    do you think GM could offer the Volt in a plug-in ALL electric vehicle also?

    No. They can not because of their wastefull battery design. Considering the 40 mile range with a 400lb battery, they will need a 1200lb battery to get you to a theoretical 120 mile range. You are forced to slugg around 45% more battery weight to extend battery life? Does that sound right to you? Carry around 45% more to live longer?…..lol Most EV’s go to at least 85% of REAL usage because they know the battery will get charged at some point before reaching the 85% SOC. Drive to work…..charge there. Drive home…..charge there. You now have just eliminated any possibility of a beeper cycle than 85%. Lithium cells like re-charging before reaching the SOC threshold therefore is not considered a “Full Cycle”.
    So no, they will not offer just an electric version.  

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  72. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    #60 WarrenPeace Said:

    You are too generous. GM needs to just fold completely and respawn as a 100% new company void of all Union garbage. Then they can open ne plants that have the capabilities of producing many differen’t models just as Ford has outside the US.

    ============================
    Well if I had my way (choice), I would have been long done with the threats last november. You only get one chance.

    I would force them into C11 (Chrysler to C7…liquidating the pieces into GM and/or maybe Ford), break the back of the union, the bondholders, dealers, kill all the bad brands/products…then give them 20-30 billion (interest/payment free for 5 years) and then pat on the back and tell them to go get ‘em and take their best shot.

    Best case is they are wildly successful and can pay the money back…worse case is they take another 5-6 years to squander my money away (they are much smaller and have no debts) and hopefully the economy is balanced out by then and is in a better position to absorb the loss.  

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  73. WarrenPeace
    Vote -1 Vote +1WarrenPeace     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    66 statik Says:
    GM has almost totally shuttered R&D, let go hundreds (thousands?) of engineers and all future projects/platforms have been cancelled or put on indefinite hiatus for the past 5 months. They are falling farther behind everyday as their current lineup ages and becomes more obsolete…and thats a problem.

    Good post statik, and from that I shall bow out and wish all UAW retires a wish and a prayer that whatever the results are you are taken care of and get all what you have worked so hard for.  

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  74. omnimoeish
    Vote -1 Vote +1omnimoeish     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

    Any word on what’s going to happen with Chrysler? They are digging themselves in even deeper with all of that Fiat merger stuff (imo).  

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  75. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    #70 DonC said:

    #56 statik says “the GSB (government sponsored bankruptcy) lives on!”

    In theory. But as a practical matter it’s unlikely given the amount of DIP financing that would be required. Do you have any estimate of what that would be? More likely the government would decide that it’s better to provide less financing outside bankruptcy than more in it, which essentially recognizes that even with a reorganization GM will still have problems.

    GM doesn’t want a bankruptcy. The UAW doesn’t want one. And the bondholders don’t want one either. At this point the game is called “Chicken”.
    ========================
    For sure GM does not want bankruptcy (GSB or not), or the UAW, or the bondholders…not even the government wants it. I think the gov’t certainly wanted to stay as far away from this option as possible, they have proven it. The problem is that the total tally on bailout dollars given/promised and loan guaranteed is already north of 50 billion…and it has only gotten them from Christmas to Easter.

    As for DIP, this is really complex. We both know there is a lot of levels past just the companies themselves…infrastructure, supplier chains, financing chains, collateral damage, etc. (lets not go item by item and put everyone into a coma).

    If I was ’spit-balling’, I’d put it at 70 billion (more) for the three of them…+/- 20 billion. The question being, “is that a good deal?”

    If you want to save them and hopefully make them (and American auto) successful sometime in the future, I think so.

    If you are given to the notion that American auto manufacturing is a oxymoron, and has too many inherent problems…bad deal.

    I think to continue on this path and just keep throwing money at the problem to kick the ball down the field, will end up in the neighbourhood of 150-200 billion dollar within 18 months (still have Ford about to jump into the pit as well), and at the end of all that money–when someone stops paying, you still have the same fundamental problems…and they still end up bankrupt, but this time maybe its forever.

    Regardless, of all the napkin back scratching, the gov’t does not want a C11/GSB scenario…not even a little bit. You are very right, if they think there is even the slightest alternative, they are going to try it. (The evidence of that is in the ridiculous undermining of their own position by the constant moving of the deadline goal posts and all the cash that has been flying around to just keep the lights on).  

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  76. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    68 Dan
    oops ..takes me so long to opine, Duh!  

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  77. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    60 WarrenPeace
    Let me do some predicting if all is left to the fate you are advocating.
    The only jobs left in the USA will be service jobs that cannot be exported. You can take what I’m saying to the bank and invest accordinly.
    The transplants can compete here true, due to the transport costs savings and undercutting on labor but guess what … a race to the bottom is coming. Toyota has already mentioned that they will need to reduce labor costs if GM is successful in pushing down its costs.
    Wage deflation is on its way and it will spare no one. Think about it! The only safe jobs are; teachers, health professionals … well strike that we can send the patient to India. Computer professionals … wait
    lets send that too. Think hard, I’m not a protectionist but the only edge afforded a worker in a world economy is logistics of the product/service delivered to the consumer.  

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  78. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    The latest breakthrough at MIT which allows for the battery to have less surplus media will have the Volt battery weigh a lot less and be smaller (as mentioned in a previous thread here).
    The non-performing divisions could make EV/BEV “Gliders”. Gutting out all the ICE stuff (from the under-performing GM divisions’) production lines could really be potentially a very-high profit scenario as the resulting output, “Gliders”, can be more efficiently set up by aftermarket independent EV/BEV startups without the GM badge.
    These ought to be about 700 to 800 pounds lighter without all the ICE stuff and tranny, A/C, and fuel system, and, if the reduced battery size and weight of the Volt battery chemistry is, say, 20 percent lighter, then you are talking about a 300 pound Volt pack at 50 percent depth of discharge at 40 miles.
    Depth of Discharge for a technically-comparable 120 mile pack would not average 100 miles a day for most drivers, and, thinking internationally, there are many countries where you do not drive 100 miles to go somewhere, such as in Jolly Old England on the other side of the pond.
    Gliders are very cheap for lack of an ICE powertrain, and, also for lack of a need for all the major warranty considerations. Gliders from the under-performing divisions, sold to independent (and qualified) startups, could really make a tremendous difference for the availabilities of EV/BEV’s, and, make those divisions highly profitable again.
    I really believe we are extremely late in cutting carbon from the environment, and we need as many quality E-REVs and EV/BEV’s as efficiently as they can be produced in high quality and high numbers.
    This would be a very environmentally-heroic thing to do, to produce “Gliders” for higher production green electric motoring.
    The startups would pass-through the warranties from the electric-powertrain component manufacturers, but, the warranties might only be for a year.
    See my idea at #59.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.  

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  79. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    To the many people who think the Volt will be overpriced:

    First, we don’t know what the price will be.

    Second, there will be a $7500 tax rebate initially, bringing the actual price way down.

    Third, we have to start somewhere. And the price of batteries will come way down over time as production is scaled up.

    Fourth, I believe there will be a whole new paradigm shift regarding automobile purchasing and ownership in the future: the initial cost WILL be higher for EREV cars compared to what we are used to for similar sized ICE cars, BUT they will last longer due to their electric motor drivetrains, range extenders that barely ever come on, and regen braking, etc. AND there will be HUGE differences in maintenance and operating costs which will be lower in the EREVs. Thus, I think, people will be keeping their cars longer, and if they do sell them after a few years they will hold their value much better than a standard ICE automobile, so depreciation won’t be as much of a factor. Therefore the overall lower cost of ownership will MORE than compensate for the higher initial cost.  

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  80. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    $40k won’t cut it! Toyota & Honda are fighting for a $20K price point right now.  

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  81. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    To Ken H @80
    ——————-
    Toyota and Honda have NO Extended Range Electric Vehicles for sale now, and they don’t plan on having any in the near future.

    The Chevy Volt is an entirely different approach to motoring. It is an ELECTRIC vehicle with a range extender. It is NOT a hybrid vehicle in the sense that most people understand, and so cannot be compared to anything that Toyota or Honda offer.  

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  82. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    76 Ken,
    It’s the 7 minute “edit delay” at the bottom of the edit post,
    times 2.

    No-one’s fault for a posting “delay”.

    14 minutes is a long time, but this thread is the most fun there is.
    Dan Petit Austin TX  

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  83. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    I believe battery technology will advance leaps & bounds if we just commit as a nation to electric vehicles. Get enough of them on the road and make them in a way that future battery improvement can
    be added then watch the after market go.
    Just commit to it!  

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  84. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    81 PJ
    I stand corrected.
    Actually I just got interested in the project “Volt” as I’ve heard so much about it being the future hope for saving GM. Let me share some of my ignorance here … why would I chose to buy the $40k Volt vs the $20k Honda hybrid? Thats a large cost difference. Also, the larger the battery pack the bigger the future replacement price overhang for the battery as they don’t last forever.
    I love the idea of the Volt. I live 25 miles from town, so with a 40 mile range I could do a lot of it with battery power but I could also drive the 50 miles round trip in a Toyota Prius on 1 gallon of gas.
    Help … I need some logic to support the concept of the Volt as the answer!  

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  85. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    82 Dan
    Thanks for the reply and info!  

    (Quote)


  86. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    To Ken H @84 who says “why would I chose to buy the $40k Volt vs the $20k Honda hybrid?”

    ———————————————————————

    Please see my post @ 79 above.  

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  87. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    The currently-underperforming divisions, under a new management, a new set of ideas, a newly energized workforce, can turn just about anything around.
    Hypothesizing-to-death with a sort of corporate-investor-speak jargon to predict this, that, or the other (regarding GM) just doesn’t really bring any new ideas to the table for me, and all that stuff is as boring and without problem-solving capacity, or instructional value, or guidance-merit as can be.
    The green electric motoring evolution we must absolutely have to be able to have a chance to adapt to keep a somewhat livable planet is going to take place. It is not going to be GM which will fail.
    It will be other OEM’s because once the Volt comes out, money will pour into GM as the consumer will abandon more readily IC.
    Consumers will wait their turns if they must, and, they are already being increasingly careful to properly maintain their current ICE vehicles to make them last until then without consequential damages. I am seeing this trend as I have not seen it (given the economy) in the last 10 years. Owners are increasingly respectful of scheduled maintenance for a variety of reasons, but, when the Volt comes out, and people actually can see it, touch it, and drive it, any OEM that is NOT posting comparable E-REV development and production benchmarks to it’s existing customer-base, will loose those customers to General Motors Corp. You non-GM OEM’s have only 18 very very short months, and, in about 12 months, you’ll really be in trouble with every single one of your customers if you’re not already doing Voltec-comparable R&D. You actually ought to be not just a little bit worried about this.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.  

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  88. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    #84 Ken H said:

    Actually I just got interested in the project “Volt” as I’ve heard so much about it being the future hope for saving GM. Let me share some of my ignorance here … why would I chose to buy the $40k Volt vs the $20k Honda hybrid? Thats a large cost difference. Also, the larger the battery pack the bigger the future replacement price overhang for the battery as they don’t last forever.

    I love the idea of the Volt. I live 25 miles from town, so with a 40 mile range I could do a lot of it with battery power but I could also drive the 50 miles round trip in a Toyota Prius on 1 gallon of gas.

    Help … I need some logic to support the concept of the Volt as the answer!
    ======================
    There is no logic if you are just doing ‘gas math’ camparing new cars (especially if you are directly comparing it to the gold standard of MPGs, the Prius)

    This is about early adoption, making a statement about oil…and driving something that is hella cool. If you want it to make sense ‘at the pump’ you probably need to wait about a decade.

    For Example:
    Back in 2000, the Prius didn’t make much sense either, if you compared it to a similar sized, but much cheaper traditional tech Cavalier (which is similar to the comparo you are suggesting, old vs new), but Toyota (to their credit) pressed forward anyway.

    The Prius retailed at around $24,000 average cost by the time it got to consumers in 2,000 (about $10,000 more than the Cavalier), it was pedestrian (at best) and only got 41MPG…19 more than the Cavalier.

    At $1.30 a gallon, you had to make up 7,293 gallons of gas usage…which means the Prius was breaking even just around when the 15,000th gallon was put into the Cavalier…by then you are well over 300,000 miles and who cares. (Volt math vs next gen Prius is also in the very high hundreds of thousands of miles/decades of electric only driving…unless you assume a very, very aggresive ramping of oil in the next 5-6 years)

    Side note: I don’t like the Cavalier vs Prius debate anymore than the Prius vs Volt debate…I think they are all different classes entirely, but I think the two scenarios are similar from a old vs new perspective  

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  89. Dave B
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave B     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    For once I won’t criticize the Obama administration or GM…this plan, IMO is a decent one. I don’t like stiffing bondholders but the UAW refuses to give-in in a time when the world is making concessions and I am paying out the wazoo in taxes and losses in my investments. DO THIS!!!  

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  90. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    86 PLJ
    OK, I read your good post.
    I don’t know where I got the $40k for a Volt? I’ll be honest with you though, the $7,500 from Uncle Sam will need to bring the final purchase cost closer to $20k for the Volt to contend for my vehicle dollar. I’m a value shopper and at this time $20k is my price point. Anything higher would hard to justify. I use a car as good, comfortable and reliable transportation. I can’t afford to use the thing to make a social statement. .. Sorry.

    88 static
    On the other hand … I will stretch the budget a little bit if the US government lends itself to some arm twisting … if you know what I mean. I will do it (buy the Volt) but it must move closer to the value end of the scale. There, I’m guilty … on a fixed income its hard to shake this value thing.  

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  91. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    RE; the price.

    The $7,500 does nothing to the price of the car. If the Volt is $40,000, you pay $40,000 (plus tax, tile, license, etc). You may get a tax break the following year, but that wont help you buy the car, or God forbid if you finance it, with your payments.

    Keep in mind only 3-4% of Americans can afford a $30k+ car. This is not a car for the masses, but a niche car at best. If GM wants to put out a game changer they need to produce a super efficient car in the $19k range. Like, oh I dont know, the Honda Insight for example. That’s a game changer that could have saved GM.  

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  92. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Awww…..no more talk about taxes ;)

    “The remaining new company would be politically popular since as the government would be funding the bankruptcy, they could promote the fact to taxpayers that the new GM is viable. Consumers would be assured it is safe to buy vehilces from them.”
    ————————————————————————————-
    I guess I would not consider them “safe”, but I would like to know how much of my tax dollar is going to be pumped into this new “safe” GM.  

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  93. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    89 Dave

    Well, as hard as it will be I guess I can do without healthcare for a while until I figure something else out. On my Volt price point … may need to count me out entirely if VEBA fails.
    But hey, thats my problem I know.  

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  94. Ken H
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ken H     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Well folks, its been good chatting. Got to go … family night.
    Until later & God Bless.  

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  95. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    91 Jake
    “Keep in mind only 3-4% of Americans can afford a $30k+ car.”
    —————————————————————————-
    The actual average price paid for a new car is near $28k.

    “According to the National Automobile Dealers Association, the average price of a new car sold in the United States is $28,400.”

    http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm

    So, even though you wont squeeze that much from my wallet, it appears their are many who will and already do.

    BTW: I think post #88 from Statik, pretty much nailed it on price and affordability of the Volt. He phrased it much better than I could.  

    (Quote)


  96. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Tesla S Video
    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/03/tesla-unveils-model-s-sedan-video.php

    They state the cost is $49,900 AFTER the $7,500 tax credit. So, at least someone is providing the actual price w/o hiding behind the $7,500 tax rebate.  

    (Quote)


  97. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    it was pedestrian (at best) and only got 41MPG
    ____________________________

    45.4 MPG was my average over 59,827 miles in a hostile climate (Minnesota) using a less efficient fuel (E10). That certainly wasn’t best either. Others averaged higher.  

    (Quote)


  98. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    Toyota and Honda have NO Extended Range Electric Vehicles for sale now, and they don’t plan on having any in the near future.
    ________________________

    Actually, GM isn’t either. Nationwide availability will begin in 2012. And even then, quantity will be very limited. But that’s a red herring.

    “Extended Range Electric Vehicle” is just a marketing term, especially since it can be configured in a variety of different ways… some much less efficient than others.

    Stating a clear & concise purpose is still an ellusive thing here. Enthusiasts just don’t want to commit… knowing problems like winter warm-up mess up their ideal.

    What are the price, quantity, and efficiency goals?  

    (Quote)


  99. ccombs
    Vote -1 Vote +1ccombs     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

    Ahhh….another non-techie post!  

    (Quote)


  100. Redeye
    Vote -1 Vote +1Redeye     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    The auto industries problem is not the UAW. It’s the management and their inability to design and produce a quality product.

    Talk about the UAW being overpaid if you like but how about the hundreds and thousands in management who do nothing to earn their huge incomes. Any pay cuts should be across the board, top to bottom forget the “bonuses” for failure.

    The auto workers work hard for their pay compared to so much of the incompetent management. Many people can’t stand to see anyone without a “degree” of some kind make a decent living.  

    (Quote)


  101. kent beuchert
    Vote -1 Vote +1kent beuchert     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    If Obama were not lying (as per usual) he would point to the UAW as THE number one reason for all of America’s automakers decline, which did NOT happen yesterday – it’s been going on for the past 40 years. And it won’t be halted by a bunch of hooey about “restructuring.” Nor is the bogus claim that the UAW’s compensation is equal to Americnas working for Japanese automakers. Those workers just received a reduction in pay, so the UAW is, even by its own fraudulent accounting methods, still more expensive. There are also the extraordinary expenses that are incurred just last week – GM paying hundreds of millions to get unneeded workers to depart. I don’t see Toyota having to do that.
    And there’s the fact that GM had to pay those anticompetitive unskilled workers for an entire month’s salary while idling their plants to reduce production. The UAW sucks. It’s about time for a class action lawsuit against our homegrown anti-consumer frauds – start with labor price fixing, then restraint of free trade – anti-competitive monopolistic (everything). Even I could win that lawsuit.
    Even if GM got equivalent labor rates ala the Japanese, they would still be hopelesly noncompetitive against the rest of Asia. The Chinese BYD version of the Volt will sell for between half and two-thirds as much. Now what was that about the Volt saving GM?  

    (Quote)


  102. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    101 Kent

    As soon as I see a post that begins with something like “If Obama were not lying …”, I am immediately dissuaded to spend time reading it. Maybe you could at least try to give the guy a chance, and not make such broad, sweeping assumptions.

    President Obama, deserves more respect than that, lets try to keep this a civil blog.  

    (Quote)


  103. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    “The Auto Task Force has wound down its discussion on Friday icluding meeting with Rick Wagoner and it is expected Mr. Obama will make an announcement on Monday.”
    —————————————————————————————
    I believe he should be addressed as President Obama or Mr. President, not Mr. Obama. Again, lets try to give our leader some respect, even if you do not agree with all or any of his positions. The next election is in less than 4 years, but until then he is our president.  

    (Quote)


  104. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:55 pm

    If the UAW were smart they’d get this Walt Kowalski guy to “represent” during negotiations. ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8coq2cUn1U&feature=related  

    (Quote)


  105. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    101 kent beuchert
    Ok, so I went back and did read your post in its entirety, and I am now sure my first reaction to your post was best.

    So, according to you we now should be accepting labor rates that are payed in the lowest paying country, so we can compete. Well, then I guess we will become the new, 3rd World country, and we can than have plenty of work to do. Other countries will start moving manufacturing the cheap labor country, called the United States of America.

    Our future is not so bright if things go the way you would like.  

    (Quote)


  106. canehdian
    Vote -1 Vote +1canehdian     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    The average wage at GM in Canada (Oshawa) is $34/hour + benefits
    and I personally know one individual who gets $68, and he certainly does not have the training nor does he work as hard as someone of an equivalent wage (e.g. doctor)

    It’s not inconceivable that there are people who indeed get $80/hr.

    I also know of a few people just hired ~2 years ago with zero qualifications who got $28/hour (doing very, very easy line work).  

    (Quote)


  107. vv-tec
    Vote -1 Vote +1vv-tec     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Wish to avoid bankruptcy?????? WTF? GM WILL NOT GO BANKRUPT!!! Write it down. If it goes bankrupt burn your dollars for heat and buy a cow.

    GM needs to innovate. The cogeneration Reinhardt Turbine piston turbine is the perfect efficient generator for GM’s electric platform. The Reinhardt Turbine achieves 60%+ efficiency, 5KW per KG and costs only $10 per KW.

    A $12k Volt will save the company and the world. The solution to the energy crisis is efficient distributed energy production. Come on GM the world needs you.  

    (Quote)


  108. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 9:36 pm

    As per GMI:

    GMI is told that Rick will be staying in D.C all weekend in an effort to pitch GM’s restructuring story as much as possible. However, it has been decided that Monday will bring an announcement of a specific date in which GM must have the issues with the United Auto Workers and GM’s bondholders resolved, or General Motors will fall into a government-backed pre-packaged Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing.

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f70/breaking-obama-announce-bankruptcy-deadline-monday-77188/  

    (Quote)


  109. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    #95 Jec

    I guess it all depends on how you define “afford”. I susbscribe to the Dave Ramsey philosophy. “Buying a new car is not something 98% of the people out there need to be doing. It is a luxury item. Only buy a new car if you’re filthy rich.” He recommends only buying a new car if you make at least $1 million a year, otherwise buy used. A new car is such a horrible financial decision to make it should only be done if you have the means. That may be a little extreme for most people, but most other financial advisiors recommend:

    Don’t spend more than 1/3 your annual income on a car. So if the Volt is $40k, you should make $120k to afford it.

    And it goes without saying you should never finance a car. So would need the $40k in the bank above your normal 12 month emergency savings fund.

    So that puts someone that car truly “afford” a Volt as a person making $120k per year, paying cash for the car with at least $160k in savings. A pretty small percentage of our debt driven society in which most people have negative net worths.  

    (Quote)


  110. lurker
    Vote -1 Vote +1lurker     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    Well, know we know what GM has been up to and what the plants have been building.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/28/cadillac-blends-top-2-escalades-for-one-really-expensive-hybrid/

    They do not get it do they? My support for them has just been disconnected. No thanks GM, you may get my money from your loan but that’s it. I will no longer even consider your products. I will go elsewhere. I am going to test drive an Insight next week.
    Pitty.  

    (Quote)


  111. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 10:54 pm

    #96 JEC says “So, at least someone is providing the actual price w/o hiding behind the $7,500 tax rebate.”

    Elon Musk is not exactly someone whose word is their bond. The whole Model S announcement is theater designed to get deposits. It probably will never be built. If it is built it will not sell for anything near the announced price. Check out what happened to the Roadster customers. Personally I would not be comfortable giving Tesla a deposit, unless I was willing to kiss the money good-bye.

    #108 statik

    This was a nice catch. Someone is barring their teeth, eh? If the report is true then the message to the bondholders is clear: take this or you’ll get less in bankruptcy.

    And the bondholders are saying: fine, but we can force you to take GM into bankruptcy, which we know you don’t want to do, so sweeten the offer.

    Like I said, the game is “Chicken”.  

    (Quote)


  112. Mark Z
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mark Z     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 10:56 pm

    The lights need to go out at GM.

    But only for one “Earth Hour.”

    Go GM. Go VOLT.  

    (Quote)


  113. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 28th, 2009 at 11:29 pm

    I am kind of curious about something:

    How many of you actually pay cash for your cars?

    Personally, the only car I ever paid cash for was my first vehicle, a new 1971 Ford Mustang coupe. It was a base price model and cost me about $3K, which was just about my entire life savings. But at 18 years old, I thought it was worth every penny! Every car purchsed since then has been financed, but for no more than 48 months.

    Jake #109: If you truly follow that philosophy, your 2010 Volt that you buy in 2016 will be a pretty good deal, unless they are so good that the owners keep them for 8-10 years.

    And if everyone followed the “buy used only” rules, who would purchase all the new cars in the first place that feed the used car market? Since GM and Toyota alone sold over 17 million new vehicles in 2008, I don’t think that too many people are using your rules!!!!  

    (Quote)


  114. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 12:30 am

    In extreme climates, a BEV will be at a crushing disadvantage. I think it highly likely that even future cars with very high AER ratings will still have tiny engines; as sources of heat and auxiliary power if for no other reason. Who will be the EREV “gold standard” by that time? GM, if it manages to survive.

    The point about other kinds of range-extenders is well taken. Free piston, rotary, turbine, nutating and other engines all seem to be contenders on the future playing field; the “extra weight” argument against them will face ever increasing challenges.

    Don’t forget that as batteries improve, they may have benefits beyond lower cost, lesser weight and size: it may be possible to get more than 50% usable range out of one rated at over 10years/100K miles. GM currently uses half of the battery pack to preserve it’s life. What if a future battery is able to use 80% of it’s capacity?  

    (Quote)


  115. CDAVIS
    Vote -1 Vote +1CDAVIS     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 12:54 am

    ______________________________________________________
    Tesla Update…

    [Google co-founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin are two of the investors pumping money into Tesla Motors....Tesla hopes that the Model S will eventually lead to a mass-produced electric vehicle..."This is just the first of many mainstream cars we’re developing," Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla, said in a statement.]

    Source: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Green-IT/Tesla-Motors-Model-S-Backed-By-Google-Founders-Brin-Page-336717/

    ______________________________________________________
    Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
    ______________________________________________________  

    (Quote)


  116. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 2:56 am

    18. cybereye,

    The Volt is almost certainly part of “the bad”. It is consuming huge resources that GM doesn’t have, it will sell at a loss, it has a very limited market window, and even during that market window it makes very little sense.  

    (Quote)


  117. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 3:09 am

    101 kent beuchert,

    Read GM’s own restructuring plan. The total incremental cost of labour to build a vehicle as compared to a Honda/Toyota built in the US is a couple hundred dollars. They are losing THOUSANDS per vehicle. Tell me again why this is the UAW’s fault.

    Not only that, GM is going to start hiring union members at about half pay in the next year or two. That deal is already done. But that won’t really allow GM to make a profit, will it? Tell me again why this is the UAW’s fault.

    The UAW gave up the job bank. Tell me again why this is the UAW’s fault.

    Of course the Volt isn’t going to save GM. That has been obvious all along. The Volt is another example of why GM is failing, and take note that it has nothing to do with the UAW.  

    (Quote)


  118. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 4:42 am

    Emission & Efficiency improvement approaches differ tremendously.

    Toyota set a price goal and worked carefully within those bounds.

    GM set a technical goal and said a high price could be justified.

    Both, of course, expect high-volume production to reduce price in the end. But the benefit from that is quite different. For Toyota, it makes a product that already reaches the mainstream even more appealing. For GM, it just makes the product acceptable for the mainstream.

    When you consider the need to sustain business in a highly competitive market, one approach has a distinct advantage over the other.  

    (Quote)


  119. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 5:20 am

    The Prius retailed at around $24,000 average cost by the time it got to consumers in 2000
    ________________________________

    My window-sticker from that time clearly says $19,995.

    Floormats added $70, plus there was $455 of delivery, processing, and handling fees bringing the grand total to $20,520.  

    (Quote)


  120. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 7:15 am

    113 Jackson
    “Don’t forget that as batteries improve, they may have benefits beyond lower cost, lesser weight and size: it may be possible to get more than 50% usable range out of one rated at over 10years/100K miles. GM currently uses half of the battery pack to preserve it’s life. What if a future battery is able to use 80% of it’s capacity?”
    =====================================================
    Yes. If they can find the right chemistry, to allow batteries to cycle near 100%, you would automatically get either a 1/2 priced battery (assuming the new battery chemistry and such, is no more expensive per KW), or you reduce the size and weight in 1/2!

    I think this is one of those low-lying fruit moments, that will be solved soon.

    How about that snow!  

    (Quote)


  121. Detfan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Detfan     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 8:03 am

    I bet GM is really regretting this crappy economy now. Having to get in bed with our government may not end well. The government could screw them up big time. The sooner car sales improve and GM can pay off the government the better off GM will be. GM is already profitable now at under 12.5 SAAR, but when we’re at 9.3 SAAR NOBODY is profitable. Just getting to the promise land of 2010 is certainly a challenge. When they get there, they will be making $5,000 per car more than just 5 years ago. This administration has done little to stimulate durable goods sales, so we’re looking at lousy sales for several months yet. GM will get the money to make it, but I sure am nervous at what political cost.  

    (Quote)


  122. George K
    Vote -1 Vote +1George K     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 10:22 am

    #102 JEC
    “President Obama, deserves more respect than that, lets try to keep this a civil blog.”

    I do agree with you. Lets keep this a civil blog.

    However, lets not forget those on the other side who have sustained much worse re President Bush. Anyone on a blog who defended him, would be surrounded by overwhelming hatred. I found myself in a similar minority when I would tout the Volt on the Prius blog. ( they have a Volt section). And I drive a Prius.

    =D~~~~  

    (Quote)


  123. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 10:45 am

    Just going out to buy a used vehicle is usually a very very bad idea if it isn’t completely scanned with that OEM’s software. The reason why 95% of them are there to be sold to you is that there are some extremely-nasty technical problems that are very expensive to repair.
    The reason why I am letting you know this is that all down through the last 7 years or so, highly-expensive problems are almost all technologically-hidden from a shallow “code-reader” “diagnosis”, which is not the same thing as a thorough and comprehensive waveform analysis during a thermal ramp up, starting from overnight shop bay temperature as the necessary temperature benchmark.
    On financing, if the interest rate is low enough, and, the owner takes very good care of the vehicle while driving it gently, some vehicles, while never an “investment”, can certainly hold their values so well, that they command an outstanding method by which a down-payment (for a Volt purchase) and retail resale of you current vehicle via a “pass-through” resale of your current vehicle by bringing your own retail buyer to the table at the time you purchase your Volt. This, while saving some sales taxes at the same time if that is allowed.
    Being ingenious to position yourselves for a Volt can get a $35,000 cost way down.
    What I did 4 years ago was buy a vehicle which holds its retail value exceptionally well. My intention at the time was to have a really great payment reduction (by 40%) when it was 3 years old, and I wanted to buy another one of them.
    However, the year after I bought it (an ‘05 Element), I began to hear about the Volt. The battery benchmarks sparked my increasing interest and respect. I purchased a “developers-pack” of the small format Lithium Ion Nano Phosphate (A123) 26MM batteries to see for myself, (just a little taller each than a “C” battery) and was astonished at how extremely powerful they were. That was 3 years ago in ancient battery times. The latest MIT advancement “quick recharge and no-degradation advancement” has “sealed the deal” for me absolutely.
    If my ‘05 Element is worth $12,000 by the time the Volt comes out,
    (it’ll be paid off in October of 2010), (and in Austin, they resell for $1000 more resale than elsewhere for various reasons), then a “pass-through” toward the purchase of a $35,000 Volt would leave about $23,000 before sales tax. If there is a utility incentive of $5000, then that could leave $18,000 to finance.
    At 5% apr or less, that’s $360 a month. Saving $150 a month on gasoline (at $2.50/Gal) could offset my Volt cost to $210 a month.
    Now for the good part:
    Only an annual oil change. No brake jobs. No Automatic Transmission services. And, I am not expecting to do any A/C services (due to a Voltec sealed AC electric Compressor) every year like I have to do with my Element. (It’s a great A/C, but the higher amount if clock hours I put on the belt-driven compressor every year are about twice that of the average driver since I do 18,000 miles a year in the Texas heat.)
    This is why I think the Volt will become sort of an Automotive partial-equity savings account that also provides me transportation, like the Element has done for me already.
    So don’t pay
    ********
    ANY
    *******
    attention WHATSOEVER to these so-called “financial advisers” when you have technical people here who can give you ideas to be able to finance your Volt and make your purchase more workable.
    Let me ask everyone reading my post this:
    Would you sell something of high value (if a fair price for it could be reached) in order to work up 20% to 30% down payment on your Volt?
    Would anyone sell their gold, diamonds, boat, RV, stock, etc?
    I think it would be interesting to read about how much people would REALLY want to get into a Voltec vehicle.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.  

    (Quote)


  124. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Will we get an announcement tomorrow or just another plan for a plan?  

    (Quote)


  125. CDAVIS
    Vote -1 Vote +1CDAVIS     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    ______________________________________________________
    #122 Dan Petit Says:

    “The reason why 95% of them are there to be sold to you is that there are some extremely-nasty technical problems that are very expensive to repair.”

    ——
    That statistic is simply not correct. A more correct statistic would be the inverse: 5%.

    Most pre-owned cars are from off-lease programs or consumers that are trading up after a few years of use. Many of the pre-owned cars sold today are covered by a manufacturer’s certified extended warranty programs or a dealer’s extended warranty program. Consumer’s reserve the right to have a professional mechanic inspect a pre-owned car prior to final purchase.

    Purchasing a pre-owned car remains a good consumer option if approached reasonably intelligently
    ______________________________________________________  

    (Quote)


  126. Tom
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 11:54 am

    About ten years ago I put a big part of my 401k into GM bonds that mature in 2012. It was a great idea at the time. Now I’ve watched my retirement dwindle. To those who talk about bondholders like big financial types who are just being greedy I thought this point might be of interest. A lot of GM bond holders are just like me — ordinary working folks hoping to be able to retire before they’re 90 years old.  

    (Quote)


  127. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    #110 DonC

    #108 statik

    This was a nice catch. Someone is barring their teeth, eh? If the report is true then the message to the bondholders is clear: take this or you’ll get less in bankruptcy.

    And the bondholders are saying: fine, but we can force you to take GM into bankruptcy, which we know you don’t want to do, so sweeten the offer.

    Like I said, the game is “Chicken”.
    ======================
    The game is certainly heating up, should be interesting to just see how the announcement goes on monday, who gives it, what is in it…and most importantly the tone in which it is delivered.

    /maybe we will finally get some tough talk (who knows)  

    (Quote)


  128. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    #112 Jim I said:

    I am kind of curious about something:

    How many of you actually pay cash for your cars?

    Personally, the only car I ever paid cash for was my first vehicle, a new 1971 Ford Mustang coupe. It was a base price model and cost me about $3K, which was just about my entire life savings. But at 18 years old, I thought it was worth every penny! Every car purchsed since then has been financed, but for no more than 48 months.
    —————-
    I have bought all my cars cash for the last 15 years…except for when the finance rate was lower than what I could make in guaranteed interest on the open market (just makes sense)

    /last financed car at a unfavorable rate was a 93 Grand Am
    ==================
    ==================

    #118 john1701a said

    My window-sticker from that time clearly says $19,995.

    Floormats added $70, plus there was $455 of delivery, processing, and handling fees bringing the grand total to $20,520.
    ——————–
    Good price, I like guys who can beat down the base MSRP out of guys with no dealer premium on a brand new model…I was just stabbing at the aprox average price you could widdle out of them.

    You could still make the same $10,000 difference argument if you went with the absolute lowest MSRP price out the door of both products. The Cavalier routinely had discount rebates/sales off the MSRP and 0% financing that Toyota never even considered doing on any vehicle (let alone the Prius)  

    (Quote)


  129. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    Good price, I like guys who can beat down the base MSRP out of guys with no dealer premium on a brand new model…
    ______________________________

    It wasn’t me, it Toyota corporate. They forced dealers to sell only at MSRP. Remember the online order process? That was the only way to get a new Prius from Aug 2000 to May 2002.  

    (Quote)


  130. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    #128 john1701a said:

    It wasn’t me, it Toyota corporate. They forced dealers to sell only at MSRP. Remember the online order process? That was the only way to get a new Prius from Aug 2000 to May 2002.
    ==============================
    Now you mention it…I vaguely remember something like that. Thanks for pointing that out.

    /might be a good model for GM to follow  

    (Quote)


  131. Detfan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Detfan     Says:
    March 29th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    To the earlier posts regarding Obama, I have been recording his lies from campaign to President, and he is up to 23 as of yesterday. History will regard President Bush much kinder than todays short sighted citizens.

    I really, really hope he doesn’t screw up the auto industry, too!! Already, my newborn grandchild owes more on the federal debt, than it costs to buy the award winning Chevy Malibu. God help us!!  

    (Quote)


  132. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 30th, 2009 at 8:47 am

    #125 Tom said:

    About ten years ago I put a big part of my 401k into GM bonds that mature in 2012. It was a great idea at the time. Now I’ve watched my retirement dwindle. To those who talk about bondholders like big financial types who are just being greedy I thought this point might be of interest. A lot of GM bond holders are just like me — ordinary working folks hoping to be able to retire before they’re 90 years old.
    ============================
    I feel bad for you Tom. But investing in a corporate bond is assuming a risk to receive a greater return over a secured investment. Putting a good chunk into anyone one high yielding bond is a little greedy…regular joe or a ‘financial type’

    Also, investing a big part of your 401k in any one unsecured vehicle is a really bad idea. Diversification is the game here…even at the most aggressive, I would suggest something like 20% in high yield cash account, 30% corporate bonds and munis, 50% mix in ETFs/diversified equity.

    Hopefully you are not too close to retirement and you can make up the difference by putting away a little extra.  

    (Quote)


  133. robb
    Vote -1 Vote +1robb     Says:
    March 30th, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    I currently work for the IAM. I did not vote the union in. I beleive that unions have been and always be organized thuggery. I should be making 25 hr based on the WDB for this area. I currently make 32hr thanks to the union. When an outside organization(unions)can manipulate what the people under it’s control(workers for companies) are compensated they will always try to squeeze more out of companies; Unions get a percentage(dues) based on wages of people in there contract under a company. Unions serve no one but themselves.  

    (Quote)


  134. Tom Harwick
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tom Harwick     Says:
    April 2nd, 2009 at 2:25 am

    Since the Obama administration was bought and paid for by organized labor in the 2008 election, you can be certain that the “good” GM will include 99% of the existing gold-pated UAW contract, retaining the highest automotive hourly wages in the world, and retiree health care far in excess of Medicare benefits.

    GM will continue to lose money on every car they sell. They will make up the red ink with bailout funds received during the bankruptcy. When those are exhausted,. Barak “Santa Claus” Obama will simply restart the flow of taxpayer funds into the “good” GM.

    Or maybe I am wrong. Maybe the Democrats will not give the UAW everything they ask for. Yeah, sure.  

    (Quote)

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