Tesla Motors has unveiled their 4-door 7-seat all-electric sedan in the Space-X factory in California Thursday. The vehicle is the follow-up to the current 2-seat Roadster of which they’ve so far sold 250 copies.
This vehicle will be priced at a lower $57,400 and have a 160 mile driving range. It will handle rapid charging at 440V, allowing a full charge in 45 minutes. The fact that their is a driveable prototype on display does not ensure the car will go into production. A dedicated factory is required for that, dependent at this point on the company getting $350 million in government loans.
There is no range extender.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk said “Would you rather have this car, or would you rather have a Ford Taurus?” He noted it is the plan that 20,000 copies per year would be built. There are two battery upgrade options one for 230 and one for 300 mile range. The 300 mile pack has 8,000 individual lithium-ion cells. Top speed is 130 mph and it will go 0 to 60 in 5.5 to 6 seconds. A sport edition will over 0 to 60 times “well under 5 seconds” says Musk.
The vehilce has a floor-mounted battery and powertrain allowing the hood to act as a second trunk and the ability for rapid battery swapping from below. It is reaer-wheel drive although an all wheel drive version is under development.
The chassis is made of aluminum, and the car has a 4000 pound curb weight and a CD of 0.26.
Sure is a beauty. Note the touch screen console which has 3G wireless capability allowing the driver to use Google maps, Internet radio, and to communicate with the car via iPod.
This entry was posted on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 1:13 pm and is filed under Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:15 pm)If I could get it serviced near me….they would have a sale.
/but only a small deposit until they get that gov’t payday (or a big VC infusion)
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:16 pm)Will this one be big enough for the Governator?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/schwarzenegger-reportedly-trying-to-return-his-tesla-roadster/
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Very pretty. I like the look better than the Roadster. I can’t afford either one, but if I could, I’d pick this one (also slightly more practical).
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:19 pm)I would never buy a pure BEV.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:23 pm)The article sums up the car nicely in this sentence:
“There is no range extender.”
Too bad for Tesla. It will be a very minor niche product with “range anxiety” built right in.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:23 pm)For those who have range anxiety over a pure EV:
That leaves more EVs for the rest of us!
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:31 pm)I would need to know
How big is the battery
Where is the battery located
Is the battery controlled to 50% drain
How much trunk space does it have
How long to charge on 110-220 volt home charging
What is the range on the interstate at say 70mph on a hot, sweaty,southern night
What is the battery warrenty
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I sense another ‘range anxiety/no range anxiety slap fast’ is about to begin.
I think a better question is…how can Tesla (a little startup) put out a car that looks like THAT -and- give you TWO HUNDRED miles range from the battery for just 15-20ish thousand more than the Volt? There is no ‘rebate math’ here because they both get it.
Is this project even possible? Is Tesla pulling our leg? Are they pulling the government’s leg to get much needed cash?
-or
Is the Volt higher priced because of GM itself, are they adding in costs/premiums for debt servicing requirements, inefficiencies, the 3rd party battery pipeline premium they are paying, and labor and legacy costs?
I would think one of them have to be true…or maybe a blend of both?
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:38 pm)Well, same old commercial battery cells, I presume.
Expect a $30,000 battery replacement bill every 4 year…
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:42 pm)Pardon my ignorance, but is the fact Tesla has sold only 250 troubling or is that all that have been made?
One man’s opinion- the sedan is very attractive. Looks Nissan-Acura-ish.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:45 pm)Very nice design…Seriously, this car will sell.
Minimalist interior was a nice touch and shows Tesla’s concern for it’s customers’ with avoiding unnecessary expenses, (just kidding of course).
Lyle, please post a front end pic when available.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Go Tesla. The big auto makers will come out with their all electric cars in 5 to 10 years, that’s what they’ve been saying for decades. After Tesla paves the way more independent manufacturers will emerge, and we will see some amazing and innovating vehicles, and the choices will be ours, not the auto makers dictating what we get to choose from, as in SUV 1 or SUV 2.
As far as the 200 mile range, well that’s 180 too long/far for me, my commute to work is only 9 miles each way.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:47 pm)#11 Benson:
Pardon my ignorance, but is the fact Tesla has sold only 250 troubling or is that all that have been made?
They’ve only made 250 so far. Far more than that are scheduled to be produced, based on the number of customers who have put down a deposit on the Roadster.
Regarding the Model S, I don’t think we should pass judgement until after all the details come out.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:49 pm)#10 Hypermiller said:
Well, same old commercial battery cells, I presume.
Expect a $30,000 battery replacement bill every 4 year…
====================
This is very true…I wonder how the warranty stacks up in California?
On the Roadster’s pack (with a faily deep discharge) the expectancy is 7years/100,000 miles…so we are probably looking at the same thing here…unless they are hedging their bets more and narrowing the usuable band (similar to the Volt).
/maybe we will get some answers at 3:30
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:52 pm)I need a front view to be sure. We all learned what the wrong angle shots did for the Volt reveal.
Mar 26th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Too bad a nice visual design like that is married to an impractical
powertrain. $57K for something that requires owning at least two cars is absurd. Selling 250 roadsters is a joke. Talk about insignificant. Never has so much press been devoted to something with so little significance.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:03 pm)#17 Jason M. Hendler said:
I need a front view to be sure. We all learned what the wrong angle shots did for the Volt reveal.
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Holy heck! The door is soooo wide open right now!
/brrrr
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:06 pm)I think the ability to rapidly recharge with 440 Volts is interesting. I do not know the battery size, but a 200 mile range indicates a SOC window of about 40 kWh. Thus a 3 phase 440 charger rated at 100 amps could recharge the battery fully in about 35 minutes. Thus grid infrastructure appears to stand in the way of pure BEV’s for the present. Time of day metering seems to stand in the way of low cost overnight charging of BEV’s and PHEV’s.
The car looks a whole lot like a Buick. Perhaps the Buick Electra will look a whole lot like the Model S? Time will tell.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:09 pm)#17
So little significance? I’d say having the FIRST and still ONLY freeway rated commercialy viable electric vehicle on the road in America is significant. The fact that they did in in a few years from a START UP is significant. The fact that if it wasn’t for Tesla, there probably never would have been a Volt is significant.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:12 pm)Wait a minute!
People are screaming that the Volt will cost $40K.
But tesla shows a BEV that needs 440V for rapid charging and no range extender for $57K, and that is OK????
They have no real mass production manufacturing capability and no long term experience. And with only one dealership per state, except for a few states, service will just be a breeze………..
If you took off the Tesla name, and put Buick on it, would you still think it is worth it????
Sorry, I just don’t get the logic going on here.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:13 pm)This is perfect. Beautiful design, awesome interior, 200 mile range, no added range extender to complicate and weigh down the car. For the $50k after rebate this could easily replace my 330i. Where do I signup? I’m sold.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:13 pm)I’d get a pure BEV. I get a discount in my car insurance for documenting that I only drive about 5,000 miles a year.
Things that prevent me from getting a purely battery-powered car now:
*Job anxiety: my current commute (incl dropoffs at school and daycare) is an 8-mile round trip. But what if I lose my job and the (God willing I get another) new one is another 120 mile commute like my last one?
* Freeway capability. Face it, in California you are effectively on an island if you can’t get on the freeway. There often are NO alternatives.
* Reliability/resale value: I don’t want a project car built by a hobbyist/entrepreneur. Most electrics out there are unsaleable, and for maintenance, you’re on your own.
* Crashworhiness. I take my kids to school and daycare, I’m *not* taking them in a car built on a homemade chassis or in a converted Geo Metro. I’m not taking them onto the road unless the car meets all the federal guidelines for safety, with crush zones, side-impact airbags etc. etc…
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:14 pm)I’m sure they are using all the battery to get 200 miles range. On this basis the Volt battery is good for 80 miles, so the S would need 2.5 times the battery. Assuming $8,000 for the Volt battery leads to an estimate of $20,000 for a battery that will go 200 miles. That leaves $37,400 for the rest of the car and profit, which might work, especially with the rebate. Assuming they can find enough buyers, of course.
Tesla is promising a fast charge ability, and I’m not sure that is possible with the Roadster batteries. Maybe they are planning to use LiFePO4 or something.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Is it me or does the Telsa S look like the Volt and the Chrysler 200C EV Concept had a baby??
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:14 pm)10-88
I want my Volt!
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:16 pm)#21 Jim I
If it had the name Buick on it the scream would be “at that price you would expect it to be an E-REV” and I don’t care what it looks like, I won’t pay that for a BEV.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:21 pm)Pretty. How may $Billions have they received to produce this vehicle?
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:22 pm)Not to be picky, but that sure is a huge center console screen, almost too big it seems. Maybe it’s just all the blue around the window that’s bothering me at the moment.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:23 pm)Looks a whole lot like my 2009 Jaguar XF for about the same price.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:29 pm)“There is no range extender.”
Contrary to what we were once told … or was it Fiskar that was going to buy range-extender gensets from GM?
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:36 pm)Looks like a really nice car. Too bad batteries don’t yet allow a BEV to be all that practical. Range anxiety, charging time, and needing a new very expensive battery pack every 4-5 years really puts a damper on it.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:36 pm)#9 statik says “I think a better question is…how can Tesla (a little startup) put out a car that looks like THAT -and- give you TWO HUNDRED miles range from the battery for just 15-20ish thousand more than the Volt?”
I think it’s a very nice looking car. But the obvious answer is that Tesla can’t sell the car for the quoted price. The economics simply aren’t there.
Think about the math. If the car needs 200 watts/mile, a 200 mile range requires a 40 kWh battery pack. At a cost of $1000/watt, which is the consensus of what it would cost, that means the battery pack costs $40k. This means that the rest of the car and profit would have to be delivered for $17K.
Another way to look at it: If the Volt has to be sold at $40K to be profitable, then Tesla, assuming it can match GM’s production costs, and assuming the Model S would match the Volt in quality, would need an additional $32K, or a total of $72K, in order to make a profit on the Model S.
The only BEV that makes economic sense is something like the Aptera.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Five times the range of a Volt !!
Who needs the “range extender”. Using it defeats the whole purpose of an EV. Some people need a checkup from the neck up around here.
’nuff said.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:39 pm)#11benson, #14Eliezer, #17 kent beuchert
They’ve made more than 250 in total. 250 is actually the number they’ve DELIVERED to customers. In terms of orders they have about 1000 more to fill. Why is that significant? That kind of volume means they are approaching their target of 1000 cars a year. In the price range and market they are in, that’s basically on par with conventional car. And this is a small startup doing this, not a huge automaker and they are selling an EV at the same time, which reduces the market further. The existence of such a market shows that there is genuinely interest in EVs and that is why GM themselves are heading into the market (and the media buzz generated by Tesla certainly helped convince GM they can get some good publicity out of this). I highly doubt without Tesla we would see such quick movement on the Volt. As Lutz says, if a small startup can do something like this why can’t a big automaker (maybe something even better)?
#9 statik
The lowest base model (starts at $57k) will get only 150 miles from all the sources I have heard so far. I think they will have a higher range model that costs more. Obviously those rims won’t come with the base model (they cost a couple thousand bucks) and probably it’ll have less standard features. They save some money over the Volt because they are using cells that probably costs less on a kWh basis and they don’t last 10 years in calendar life and probably also has lower cycle life (which doesn’t matter as much since one cycle travels about 150 miles rather than 40 miles at least so it still works out to 100k+ miles).
I think we’ll hear more details at the actual unveiling.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:40 pm)It is a beautiful car.
I would love to have one.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:44 pm)#9 statik Says: …how can Tesla (a little startup) put out a car that looks like THAT -and- give you TWO HUNDRED miles range from the battery for just 15-20ish thousand more than the Volt? There is no ‘rebate math’ here because they both get it.
Is this project even possible? Is Tesla pulling our leg? Are they pulling the government’s leg to get much needed cash?
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I think they can do it.
Remember that the Volt will sell in the the mid 30s, and many people’s calculations here show that GM will make money at that price. At one point, Bob Lutz did say each Volt may need 2 batteries over its lifetime, and that may drive GM’s cost to $40K, but that was right when Congress was debating the size of the tax credit, and Lutz has later backpedaled and said more recent test data showed 1 battery will work fine. So the bottom line is that GM can sell the Volt at around $35K (before the tax credit) and make money.
Tesla’s battery pack uses commercially available cells which cost less, have higher energy density, and can potentially explode or catch fire, although Tesla’s pack design is supposed to manage that. Tesla’s battery pack only has a 5-year warranty, so they are probably using significantly more than a 50% duty cycle.
CPI essentially said the Volt’s battery pack costs $8K. In 2007, Tesla leaked that their 53kWh Roadster pack costs $23K. Given the relative battery chemistry, warranty, and duty cycle info above, that number seems about right.
Now take into consideration that the Model S has no range extender, so take away around $3K for the ICE, radiator, and exhaust system.
Then add around $5K for more expensive components, and another $5K for the fact that Tesla has a much lower capacity assembly method, and voilà:
$35K (Volt)
-$8K (Volt’s battery)
-$3K (Volt’s ICE, radiator, & exhaust system)
+$23K (Tesla’s battery)
+$5K (because the Model S is a higher-end car)
+$5K (because Tesla doesn’t have GM’s mass production techniques)
————————
$57K
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:50 pm)Question
Somehow I am under the impression that in order to sell the Volt in California the battery had to have a 10 year life. If this is so how can Tesla sell theirs with a much shorter usable life.
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:51 pm)Actually, the car is visually styled nice.
But clearly NOT optimized. Where are the slab sides the Volt needed? What about that big Kamm back? The wheels look quite large, I remember being told that larger Volt wheels would waste range.
Compared to the production Volt, this thing is a rolling brick. Why would Tesla waste so much potential range using a “non-optimal” design? Especially with no range extender to cover themselves. All this inefficency would mean it needs much more than 2.5x the Volt battery.
And the dash looks photoshopped to me. The interior looks like a garage job kit car. for almost 60K?
Something seems fishy here; something doesn’t add up.
Back to an old, irritating question: Why does the Volt look like it does?
Mar 26th, 2009 (2:51 pm)#33 Nikky Says: Who needs the “range extender”. Using it defeats the whole purpose of an EV.
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How does using the range extender 10% of the time defeat the whole purpose of an EV? It sure beats having another car for longer trips.
I will never buy a pure BEV.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:04 pm)#32 DonC Says: At a cost of $1000/watt, which is the consensus of what it would cost,…
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No. It’s $1000/ available kWh, and that assumes a 50% duty cycle, which corresponds to $500/kWh total. Also remember that Tesla is using the same mass market Lithium Ion cells that are used in laptops, so they will be cheaper. They can also explode or catch fire, but the mechanical design of Tesla’s pack is supposed to contain that.
Also, given that Tesla’s battery only has a 5-year warranty, I’m assuming the duty cycle is significantly higher than 50%.
Anyway, in mid-2007, it was somehow leaked to the press that the 53kWh pack costs Tesla $23K to make, which sounds about right for regular mass market Li/Ion cells.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:05 pm)OMG, I want to make love to this car. It is sooo much better looking than the econo Volt that GM is cooking up.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:07 pm)The estimate of $72K is way higher than it would need to be. Their model is a pull sales model, not push, therefore their costs are only incurred after they have taken order. Right there you have a substantial savings off your books. Second, they are licensing their battery technology to Daimler for the Smarts, and will be producing in the 5-10K range of packs soon.
Plus the volt is really ugly. I used to want it, but come on guys. this car looks so much better. range extender my ass. I want a nice looking car.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:13 pm)Look like a Jaguar from the front.
Mr. Paypal (Elon Musk) is a GENIUS.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:16 pm)As far as the 200 mile range, well that’s 180 too long/far for me, my commute to work is only 9 miles each way.
_____________________________________________________________
One very good reason for a battery bigger than you would ever need short of an extended road trip is so that you are barely touching the battery, using only 10% of the battery each day give you a battery that can last roughly 10 times as long as a battery than used 100% of its capacity every day. In fact its for this reason that the Volt is so long coming, the batteries that could discharge such a high percentage of their battery every day and still last 10 years were just not there. On the other hand, a battery like that in the Tesla that only goes through one charge cycle every 10 days or will only be somewhere around 350 cycles after 10 years!
Besides that, 200 miles pretty much alleviates any range anxiety. Eliminating range anxiety with just a bigger battery while simultaneously making the battery last longer is a pretty good move because it eliminates TONS of the parts needed to run the ICE (exhaust manifold, radiator, oil circulation, ignition, air intake, fuel intake, alternator, gas engine valves, pistons, shafts etc. etc.,). Besides replacing the battery, there is almost nothing that can go wrong in a Tesla (relatively speaking) since the electric motor is probably brushless.
I don’t think the Volt and the Tesla will be directly competing because a the price differences are still very significant. Besides the fact that both vehicles will be produced in such limited quantities for the foreseeable future.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:18 pm)Jeff @ 42:
No, I wouldn’t say the Volt is ugly. It is much better looking than that homely Prius.
The Volt was hamstrung by the 40 mile/charge promise. Remember, GM is held to different standards than Toyota or Tesla. If GM missed the 40 miles, the negative press would have been overwhelming.
The Volt COULD have looked much nicer, with only relatively few styling changes. It COULD have been a show stopper, but we were told that was not practical. I am still miffed by this.
And I still definitely want a Volt over this Tesla. I need a reliable and safe commuter car, not a toy for the weekends. Not for 60K. This isn’t a game. There is no evidence that Tesla can even produce this car for that price yet, let alone support it after the sale.
I am just amused at all the double standards; in so many ways!
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:19 pm)Hold on folks! Quick-charge batteries are in the works (at MIT no less) and expected to be available in 2 to 3 years. All we need now is a network of quick-charge stations (I’m sure petrolium companies will want in on that!). I’d much rather have an exclusively electric vehicle if it can be recharged in a few minutes at a station and plugged-in for a slower charge at home. A range extender will be good until this can be achieved I supose. BUT…
NO MORE GAS, NO MORE OIL AT ALL!!! That’s what I want.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:21 pm)We are hearing about a lot of proposed EVs; Tesla, GM, Nissan, Mitsubishi…… Did we have this much promise around the time of the EV-1? Are we really going into a turning point this time?
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:24 pm)Actually, it’s worse than I thought, only 3-year / 36,000 mile warranty.
From the Tesla site:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?m=200805
Tesla has established a comprehensive warranty for the Roadster. The 3 year/36,000 mile base warranty covers all aspects of the car for defects in materials and workmanship. The battery pack is part of this comprehensive warranty.
… The battery pack is expected to last longer than the warranty period, although repairs beyond the warranty period will be charged at regular part and labor rates.
And from their FAQ:
http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php
(click on “How long do the batteries last? “)
The battery pack in your Tesla Roadster is expected to maintain good driving performance for about 100,000 miles or five years, whichever comes first. Lithium-ion batteries will degrade slightly over time. Our testing and modeling indicate that a typical Tesla Roadster owner who drives 50,000 miles over five years should have about 70 percent of initial performance levels available.
So they say it should last for 5 years, but the warranty is only for 3.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:24 pm)This car is the bomb.
WANT.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:35 pm)Pics are up at Jalopnik:
http://jalopnik.com/5185844/tesla-model-s-sedan-concept-49900-seven+seater-electric-to-hit-streets-in-2011
Don’t know who is reporting over there…they say 7 seater, lol.
“The Tesla Model S Sedan will have a 300-mile range, 45-minute fast charge capability, a 0-to-60 time of 5.5-seconds. Production supposedly starts 3rd quarter of 2011.”
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:36 pm)#40 Dave G says “No. It’s $1000/ available kWh, and that assumes a 50% duty cycle”
Without delving too far into the details, if you buy a Volt you get a car and a battery pack that will last ten years. If you buy a Model S you get a car, a battery pack, and you need to buy a second battery pack after five years to get you to ten years.
Add the $20k – $30k for the replacement pack to your price and you get my price. Basically the “available” price/kWh assumes a better and longer lasting pack. In a sense, I added the cost of the replacement pack into the price by assuming the Model S had a better pack. You can get to the same number by substituting the price of two inferior packs. Same difference.
FWIW one of the problems with the Li-ions that Tesla uses in the Roadster is that they lose capacity over time regardless of whether they’re used or not. As a consequence, at the end of ten years the Volt pack will be considerably more useful. In fact, with the range extender you wouldn’t need to replace the pack at ten years whereas with the Model S you would need to buy yet another battery pack.
#50 statik
More comedy from Elon Musk. Sign me up, though I’m still waiting for official word from the government that it has awarded Tesla the loans that Tesla announced it would be receiving.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:39 pm)That is a sweet looking car! Even if it does look like a Mazda 6 from the rear…
There are a lot of people that won’t need the range extender, probably at least 20-30% of the US drivers would be comfortable with this car. And as a second car it works great! If you are spending $50,000 net on a car, I doubt you only have one in your garage. And I would bet that the base model with the 150 miles range won’t need the battery replacement for at least 8 years, maybe 10, as long as you don’t use the fast charge capability too often. I ran through the numbers, and if they need 30 kWh to get the 150 miles range they would get a much longer life if they use 45+ kWh battery which at $500 per kWh gives you a battery price of $22,500 for the base and around $30,000 for the longer legged, more expensive model. My numbers came out almost exactly the same as Dave G in his post at #36, and I also agree with his comment #39 about the range extender being worthwhile, I see it as a good blend of domestically produced, high torque, low carbon footprint electrical power with the convenience and long range of the ICE.
There is room for both BEV’s and ER-EV’s in todays market, and by the time they get here gasoline price increases will make these cars the envy of every driver around!
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:43 pm)#46 Raymond Says: All we need now is a network of quick-charge stations … NO MORE GAS, NO MORE OIL AT ALL!!! That’s what I want.
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U.S. oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 15% fuel oil (home heating and industrial)
• 19% other (petro-chemical, plastics, fertilizer, etc.)
The United States imports around 2/3 of the oil we consume. Even if all passenger vehicles were pure electric, that would only reduce our oil consumption by 44%. Heavy duty long distance travel doesn’t work with batteries. So to become energy independent, we will need bio-fuels.
Now look at EREVs. For a typical driver, 85% of the miles driven will be all electric. The remaining 15% of our gasoline consumption (7% of our total oil consumption) can be covered with ethanol. Much of our current farmland is sitting idle. Growing energy crops on this idle farmland, combined with food crop residue, forest/mill waste, and municipal waste, this will easily cover 7% of our current oil consumption, without any additional land use. Cellulosic ethanol is getting real:
Dollar-a-gallon ethanol plant in U.S. operation next year
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html
Fast charging stations are far from trivial. They will require very large batteries at the charging station to even out the spikes to the grid. They will require very large high-power charging cables. They will have to be covered from the rain and snow. It will be very expensive.
Why spend trillions of dollars on a whole new infrastructure of fast charging stations, when EREVs and cellulosic ethanol can completely replace gasoline, all with our current infrastructure of home power outlets and liquid filling stations.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:45 pm)ThombDbHomb (#47)
I would really like to think that, I really hope this is the case. The question is, how much of it will evaporate if GM collapses? Or, to put it another way, how much of it has been spurred in direct response to the Volt project?
statik (#50):
They’re seriously lowballing the price, too: a box near the top of the page in that link implies $50K, not $57K.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:47 pm)#51 DonC Says: if you buy a Volt you get a car and a battery pack that will last ten years. If you buy a Model S you get a car, a battery pack, and you need to buy a second battery pack after five years to get you to ten years. Add the $20k – $30k for the replacement pack to your price and you get my price.
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OK, I follow you now.
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:49 pm)#38 MetrologyFirst on appearance of Tesla S and Volt
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You are picking on an old scar, and it still hurts
Mar 26th, 2009 (3:52 pm)Observations about the Model S’s beauty vs aerodynamic efficiency leads the conspiracy theory du Jour: The model unveiled today is the equivalent of the original Volt show car.
Unlike the Volt’s early incarnation, it is intended to draw orders, not interest (there was already plenty of that, because of the Roadster).
Once they get their loan, and some payments from prospective owners, watch for them to do some “tweaking.”
And speaking of automotive aesthetics, have you taken a close look at the new Camaro with the Volt show car in mind? It’s been reported that the initial Volt concept was launched using an earlier Style exercise intended for conventional propulsion. Maybe the first Volt concept was really a not-ready-for-prime-time Camaro concept.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Is it just me, or does the Model S look similar to the Chrysler 200C E-REV Concept?
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:06 pm)#49 Clint Westwood
This car is the bomb.
WANT.
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Pretty accurate, But you should probably say this car is A bomb. I dont want a car that has hundreds of over the counter li-ion packs in a cooled system. I want a small set of packs in something close to a black box. Which is what I hope the Volt is aiming for.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:11 pm)I find it odd that so many people think that, if a car isn’t exactly what they personally want, than no body else could possibly want it either. They somehow represent the majority. Well, maybe the rest of the world doesn’t see things the same way as you do.
The stated objective of the Volt is to be the first car with a new technology that is ultimately going to be way most cars are going to be. The Volt is to appeal to eco-family sedan crowd. Albeit eco-families that have a bit of coin saved up.
The Tesla S model is targeted at the eco-conscious Lexus/BMW crowd. These guys will almost always have more than one car and using the gas powered car for the drive from LA to San Francisco while using the electric almost all time while near home makes perfect sense to them.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:12 pm)Cool car
Niche market (Super duper niche market!)
They will sell a few hundred
If one (UNO, single #1) malfunctions and burns down the owner’s house, they will be bankrupted by the lawsuits.
Oh, one more thing. Based on what I have read (Even seen with Lyle driving a Tesla) The 200 mile range is pipe dream.
These cars will never NEVER compete in the mass market and is of no threat to anybody as far as market share.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:14 pm)One thing this car has on the Volt is more seating capacity. This car will be $50 after tax rebate. With the power it commands, this will easily compete with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, IF they can prove their reliability and servicability.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:20 pm)@ $50K and with that amount of range, I’m in for one! Beautiful looking car!
No more gas!
GO EV!!!
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:23 pm)# 8 Statik
They are pulling your leg. I believe Tesla’s are designed and built by Lotus (might be remembering this wrong). If so, not a surprise that the car looks good.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:37 pm)#64 SteveK Says: I believe Tesla’s are designed and built by Lotus (might be remembering this wrong).
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Tesla is a car company with multiple models.
The Tesla Roadster model ($100K+ sports car) was deigned by Tesla and is built by Lotus and Tesla. The frame and body is built by Lotus and the power-train and final assembly is done by Tesla. The original body design was roughly based on the Lotus Elise, but in the end 90% of the parts for the Roadster are different from the Elise.
The Model S ($57K sporty sedan) will be built by Tesla, in a new plant being subsided by the state of California with loans from the U.S. government. Tesla says this new plant will produce up to 20,000 Model S cars per year.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:41 pm)I suspect when all is said and done, Tesla will earn an honored place in automotive annals for uncorking the current EV craze, but it will be regarded as having used relatively primative technology in its vehicles. They essentially have a built a sophisticated Rube Goldberg device to wire together the 6000-plus laptop cells and keep them cool enough.
There’s no real world data yet to tell how long their battery packs will last. That alone would keep me from buying one. I think GM is being much more thorough in how it is going about creating and testing the Volt than Tesla was with the roadster. And that’s to be expected. GM’s been around this track before, but Musk had to learn the hard way that cars are a just little more complicated than computers.
Finally, talk about vaporware! Even Musk admists that the S is just that, unless get its a huge infusion of taxpayer cash.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:47 pm)#62 omnimoeish Says: this will easily compete with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, IF they can prove their reliability and serviceability.
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It looks like the battery will only last around 5 years, and the warranty is only for 3 years. They use a less expensive Li/Ion cell chemistry, so the battery will wear out even if you don’t use it. A new battery pack will cost around $25K.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:53 pm)On my way to 7-11 for a Lotto ticket. Anybody else need one?
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:56 pm)#66 FME III Says: I suspect when all is said and done, Tesla will earn an honored place in automotive annals for uncorking the current EV craze, but it will be regarded as having used relatively primitive technology in its vehicles. They essentially have a built a sophisticated Rube Goldberg device to wire together the 6000-plus laptop cells and keep them cool enough.
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Yes, I agree.
Hats off to Tesla for wrenching people free of their old EV stereotypes. But for a mass market car, I think their battery chemistry does seem a bit primitive. The contrast with the Volt’s chemistry shows how well GM did working the issues to make this real for the masses.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:56 pm)#57 Jackson says “Once they get their loan”
A couple of people have mentioned a Tesla loan, and the lead article talks about it as well. Out of curiosity, why is a loan to Tesla a “loan” whereas a loan to GM is a “bailout”?
Not trying to argue about it, just trying to understand the distinction.
#66 FME II says “Tesla will earn an honored place in automotive annals for uncorking the current EV craze”
AC Propulsion definitely had cars earlier than Tesla, and I’m wondering if by the end of the year it will have more cars on the road than Tesla.
Mar 26th, 2009 (4:58 pm)I think the difference is the number of zeros.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:01 pm)Well, Tesla is not in danger of bankrupty and does not need the loan to survive… whereas GM and Chrysler are on the brink of collapse.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:06 pm)Most outlets are now reporting the price of $49,900 before rebate ($42,400 AR). Please update your post so people dont keep quoting 57K.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:08 pm)I think it is a very good looking car, and am so glad they chose conventional styling instead of some sci-fi moon buggy concept.
It does look Japanese, so Asian sales should be strong, while Fisker will dominate Europe and North America with the Karma.
BEV’s do have a market large enough to keep Tesla profitable for many years to come.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:08 pm)#70 DonC Says: Out of curiosity, why is a loan to Tesla a “loan” whereas a loan to GM is a “bailout”?
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Because Tesla is growing and GM is shrinking.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:14 pm)#70 DonC Says: AC Propulsion definitely had cars earlier than Tesla, and I’m wondering if by the end of the year it will have more cars on the road than Tesla.
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#71 CorvetteGuy Says: I think the difference is the number of zeros.
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LOL!
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:15 pm)#9 Hypermiler
Well, same old commercial battery cells, I presume.
Expect a $30,000 battery replacement bill every 4 year…
#67 Dave G
It looks like the battery will only last around 5 years, and the warranty is only for 3 years. They use a less expensive Li/Ion cell chemistry, so the battery will wear out even if you don’t use it. A new battery pack will cost around $25K.
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You guys couldn’t be farther off. Where are you getting your misinformation? Batteries are going to be warranteed for 7-10 years and replacement cost is “well under $5,000″
How is the Tesla battery “inferior” to the Volt when it has a 300 mile range vs a 40 mile range, and can be waranteed up to 10 years and replaced for $5k? Sure seems superior in every possible way if you ask me.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:16 pm)#74 Jason:
“Most outlets are now reporting the price of $49,900 before rebate ($42,400 AR). Please update your post so people dont keep quoting 57K.”
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I believe $57k + $7500 tax break is the correct number. Whoever is reporting otherwise is mistaken.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:21 pm)#70 DonC
A couple of people have mentioned a Tesla loan, and the lead article talks about it as well. Out of curiosity, why is a loan to Tesla a “loan” whereas a loan to GM is a “bailout”?
Not trying to argue about it, just trying to understand the distinction.
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Although personally, I don’t politically agree with government loans or bailouts, the difference is:
GM is a company with financial problems that without the government money might have to go Bankrupt ( therefore a “bailout”)
Tesla is a company that does not presently have financial problems that might make it go Bankrupt, but would like money from the government to expand ( therefore a “loan”)
Actually, my deposit is on a Fisker Karma which at least at this time is not as vocal in wanting public money and is financed by private investors ( at least so far)
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:25 pm)if it really only costs $5000 to replace the Tesla Model S battery every 5-10 years, then it’s definitely worth it… especially when you consider the maintenance and repair costs for an ICE car are much higher than for a BEV.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:25 pm)It’s late in the thread, I can throw out an off-topic:
Imagine how much better it will be for burglers who want to silently drive to a work site.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:27 pm)#79 Eliezer
Edit me out of here, I said something dumb
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:33 pm)#79 Eliezer Says:
> if it really only costs $5000 to replace the Tesla Model S battery every 5-10 years, then it’s definitely worth it…
Recall that Tesla pack uses commercial off the shelf AA Li-Ion battery at the cost of $350/kwh. These are already well-commercialized and there is little room for further cost reduction.
At the capacity of 42 kwh, you are looking at $15,000 worth of AA cells, plus pack assembly(much more complex than Volts due to the sheer number of cells involved, 7,000)
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:35 pm)#24……….It might look a little like the Chrysler 200C, but nothing like the Volt! This car and the Chrysler 200C have something that GM decided to leave out of the Volt, STYLE.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:37 pm)#77 Bob says
> How is the Tesla battery “inferior” to the Volt when it has a 300 mile range vs a 40 mile range, and can be waranteed up to 10 years and replaced for $5k?
Volt battery cells are specifically engineered for automotive use and are long lasting(15 years).
Tesla battery cells are off the shelf AA battery cells. Yes, same as the one going into your remote control and consumer electronics.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:39 pm)My two pence:
If in these next years, battery technologies enables to:
- Be totally charged within 10-15 min (which could be acceptable for the most, will only force you to sit and drink a coffee) on special outlets
- Be able to charge at home on standard outlet (e.g. night charge)
- Enable to reach a 400 miles range in real conditions
THEN the ICE is DEAD, and all Hybrid, E-REV will be obsolete, thus DEAD.
When I visited the Ampera and Tesla showrooms at the Geneva Auto show few weeks ago (I live in Switzerland), I measured how these both company did differ in their approach.
At the Ampera stand, I had to beg to a stupid clueless Ampera hostess to grab some technical infos, whitout success (I realized I knew more than her ^^ and no other Opel guy could offer me some useful infos). Furthermore, I could only sneak my cell cam through the Ampera door partially opened to grab some pics.
After that, nothing more to feed me. I was very disapointed.
Then I moved to a very small, hidden hall where I could find the Tesla showroom…
“Please, have a sit in the car, let me open it and show u the engin, the battery pack… oh wait, two Tesla owners came from GB (!) and have their car waiting outside for a test drive if you want.. coffee?”
I could ask tons of questions, and this guy knew all details and gave very good infos. A critical question I had was:
“If I buy a model S in 2012, I will feel being condamned by not being able to upgrade the battery pack accordiing to newer technologies…”
His answer: “Two things: first, Battery technology gains about 7% capacity every year. Second: When you get your Tesla, after 5 years, you get your whole battery set replaced with newer ones, based on the newest technology…”
I’m going for Tesla…
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:40 pm)# 74. Jason M. Hendler Says:
> It does look Japanese, so Asian sales should be strong, while Fisker will dominate Europe and North America with the Karma.
Model S’s facia is lifted from Hyundai Veloster concept. And no, Tesla S won’t sell in Asia, they got better stuff at half the price..
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:49 pm)#77 Bob Says: You guys couldn’t be farther off. Where are you getting your misinformation? Batteries are going to be warranteed for 7-10 years and replacement cost is “well under $5,000″
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From the Tesla site:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?m=200805
Tesla has established a comprehensive warranty for the Roadster. The 3 year/36,000 mile base warranty covers all aspects of the car for defects in materials and workmanship. The battery pack is part of this comprehensive warranty.
… The battery pack is expected to last longer than the warranty period, although repairs beyond the warranty period will be charged at regular part and labor rates.
And from their FAQ:
http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php
(click on “How long do the batteries last? “)
The battery pack in your Tesla Roadster is expected to maintain good driving performance for about 100,000 miles or five years, whichever comes first. Lithium-ion batteries will degrade slightly over time. Our testing and modeling indicate that a typical Tesla Roadster owner who drives 50,000 miles over five years should have about 70 percent of initial performance levels available.
As for battery cost:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
Tesla Motors refers to the Roadster’s battery pack as the Energy Storage System or ESS… The Tesla Motors Club bulletin board estimated the 2007 replacement cost at approximately $20,000… Tesla Motors, in February 2009, stated more about the ESS including placing the current replacement cost at slightly under USD$36,000…
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:50 pm)If this topic continues much longer the Tesla battery will last 20 years and they will pay you $5,000.00 to replace it.
Mar 26th, 2009 (5:58 pm)#77 Bob Says: How is the Tesla battery “inferior” to the Volt when it has a 300 mile range vs a 40 mile range…
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Tesla uses normal consumer electronics grade Lithium Ion cells. If you took your laptop battery pack apart, you will likely find these types of cells inside.
The mass market Li/Ion cells are inferior because:
1) They wear out faster.
2) They can explode or catch fire.
Tesla has designed the pack to manage a “thermal event” and prevent it from spreading to other cells, but if you are in an accident, the mechanical design of the pack could be compromised, and a short could cause an explosion or fire.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:06 pm)Nice looking car. The Volt will be out first and will take market share because of timing. The EV-1 was the first recent electric car well before Tesla. I understand a large number of Volt components will be borrowed from EV-1 experience.
I also thought GM was considering a BEV Volt. I’ll take one of those please with 120 mile range. It would be nice for that peaceful weekend drive. You can keep the range extender. No more oil for me.
Take Care,
TED
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:09 pm)#84 HyperMiler Says: Tesla battery cells are off the shelf AA battery cells. Yes, same as the one going into your remote control and consumer electronics.
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No. Lithium Ion cells are around 3.6 volts each. Regular AA Alkaline cells are 1.5 volts, and NiMH AA cells are 1.2 volts.
Also, I don’t think the Tesla cells are AA size. The one that Martin shows here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/tm/3507.html?site=22&pl=wmp&rate=hi&ch=5
about 9/10 of the way through the chapter, looks much longer and slightly fatter than AA.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:10 pm)#87 Dave G:
You are quoting the old roadster specs. This is the Telsa S sedan we are talking about. New information: warranty=7-10 years, replacement cost under $5k.
#84 Hypermiler
Oh so the fact that they are “specifically engineered for automotive use” make them better. I see now. Clearly something with 86% less range and more expensive is much better. Got it.
#89 DaveG
I’m fine with “consumer grade” . A car is a consumer product. If I get 10 years out of the batteries it would be far longer than any car I’ve owned. Also with the liquid cooled system they have, the risk of fire is mitigated. A gas tank in a ICE car is far more dangerous.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:11 pm)#80 ThombDbhomb Says: Imagine how much better it will be for burglars who want to silently drive to a work site.
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How much worse will it be for kids on bikes?
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:12 pm)#92 Bob Says: You are quoting the old roadster specs. This is the Telsa S sedan we are talking about. New information: warranty=7-10 years, replacement cost under $5k.
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Where are these new Tesla Model S specs?
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:16 pm)Sweet….
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:18 pm)92 Bob Says: I’m fine with “consumer grade” . A car is a consumer product. If I get 10 years out of the batteries it would be far longer than any car I’ve owned. Also with the liquid cooled system they have, the risk of fire is mitigated. A gas tank in a ICE car is far more dangerous.
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But current consumer grade Li/Ion batteries only seem to last around 5 years.
If the mechanical design of the pack is altered due to a crash, then a thermal event in one cell can effect other cells, making a large fire or explosion possible. Contrary to movies & TV shows, gas tanks have internal screens that prevent explosions.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:27 pm)Statik @50:
The car is a 7 seater.
2 up front, 3 in the middle, and 2 in the back that face the rear of the car meant for kids.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:39 pm)I’ve been waiting so long to see this.
Amazing. I want one. I will save up for this unless I can’t aford it… I willl get a Volt.
I love Tesla. They made a huge change in the car industry with this car turning heads of the rich to go fast and go green.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:42 pm)Tesla is very smart using the white color. CARB is requesting light car colors in California to reduce CO2.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/26/the-ban-on-black/
If the 440 volt charging station can pump enough electricity into the car in one hour, then strategically placed charging stations next to fine dining on longer trips could make this viable for the 278 mile LA to Vegas trip. Luxury hotels in Vegas should consider installing charging stations to meet demand.
This model will be much more successful than the Tesla Roadster. When I had trouble climbing out of the Roadster in the showroom, the sales lady said, “Our sedan will be announced soon.”
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:48 pm)Tesla CEO Elon Musk said “Would you rather have this car, or would you rather have a Ford Taurus?”
Shouldn’t the question be if I’d rather have that car or three Ford Tauruses?
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:48 pm)GM-Volt.com needs to do a more in depth analysis of the facts of Tesla and really see what they are saying and post again. There is too much back and forth on the comments. Someone do a little research please and post facts and sources. Thank YOU
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:49 pm)Give me the Ford Taurus if it’s a better and cheaper vehicle. Elon is such an ass.
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:49 pm)The press release from Tesla says that they are finalizing the warranty but it will be _3-4 years for the car and 7-10 years for the battery pack. They expect replacement battery packs to come in at “well under $5000″ according to Elon_
Not bad if he can actually deliver a new battery for $5000 7 or 8 years after you buy this thing. Especially since inflation is going to be a bear these next few years. And someone above thought the press release stated a new, low price, no such luck. It is clearly a net price of $49,900 and an msrp of $57,400.
Tesla specs/press release at the autobloggreen link below.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/
Mar 26th, 2009 (6:49 pm)#85 Lawrence Says: If in these next years, battery technologies enables to:
- Be totally charged within 10-15 min … on special outlets
- Be able to charge at home on standard outlet (e.g. night charge)
- Enable to reach a 400 miles range in real conditions
THEN the ICE is DEAD, and all Hybrid, E-REV will be obsolete, thus DEAD.
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I totally disagree.
To get rid of gasoline, you need the cars, and the infrastructure of fast charging stations. Most people change cars every 5 years or so, but changes to the infrastructure will take much, much longer, particularly in rural areas.
Also, fast charging is not trivial. Let’s take your example of charging a 400 mile BEV in 10-15 minutes, let’s call it 12 minutes. For EVs in the Model S / Volt / Ampera class, you get around 5 miles for each kWh, so a 400 mile pack would need 80kWh to recharge. So to charge a 400 mile battery in 12 minutes (0.2 hours), you would need 400,000 watts of charging power.
That’s almost 2000 amps at 220 volts. How many houses is that in Switzerland? Would you care to make that 400,000 watt connection with snow dripping down your car?
Also, to supply those huge power spikes at fast charging stations, you would need batteries. In other words, you would transfer the power from their battery to your battery. And the battery in the fast charging station would need to be kept out of the elements and at a reasonable temperature. And you would need a big battery in the fast charging station. Not cheap.
Fast charging is not trivial.
On the other hand, EREVs replace 90% of your gas with electricity from overnight charging from your home. If we replace 90% of our gasoline, then we only have to worry about the other 10%. Cellulosic ethanol can easily cover this 10%, without using any additional land. If the combination of EREVs and ethanol can completely replace gasoline using our existing infrastructure of home outlets and liquid filling stations, why spend tons of money on a completely new fast charging infrastructure?
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:12 pm)From the autobloggreen article:
“They are finalizing the warranty, and expect it to be 3-4 years for the car and 7-10 years for the battery pack. They expect replacement battery packs to come in at “well under $5000″ according to Elon.”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/
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That is an absolutely incredible claim.
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:17 pm)If it’s possible to get 5 times the range as the volt with this car, then maybe the volt could be sold with differently sized battery packs, 40K range 80K range or 120K range etc too.
The volt is still a superior concept with the range extender configuration though, I would certainly feel more comfortable on longer journeys knowing I could reach my destination if the battery runs flat and 300miles is not that far.
In my opinion the people who say they won’t suffer from range anxiety probably don’t actually do anything with there lives apart from go to work and back which makes them rather boring individuals.
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:19 pm)Finally just got to see the front end pics of the Tesla…Stunning. Very, very nice car and a “well done” to Tesla.
For my own situation, I would still require the configuration of a E-Rev like the Volt as I just live too far away from many places, and the range anxiety issue would be at play too often. That said, the Tesla will have buyers though for many other people. They don’t have to worry—they just have to build it!
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:25 pm)#106 Jon,
“In my opinion the people who say they won’t suffer from range anxiety probably don’t actually do anything with there lives apart from go to work and back which makes them rather boring individuals.”
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People who don’t suffer from range anxiety are (by definition) brave, and therefore more exciting.
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:31 pm)#104 Dave G
In terms of physics and maths, I totally agree with you. But in terms of logic, I have a doubt:
The problem is about efficiency. Without going to specific concerns such as car aerodynamics and all specific losses, lets focus to engines. If I get it more or less, current ICE efficiency is about 35%. The question is… how to enhance it? it seems that there is not much room for great improvement.
Electric motors are more or less in a +90% efficiency.
E-REV cars runs electric for a couple of miles (40 for volt) with 90% efficiency. Passed this limit, it turns to be a quasi-regular car, back to 35% efficency.
Til there I won’t complain more. But talking about ethanol as THE solution is not convincing me totally:
for a fix amount of land, how much energy is captured from the cellulosic base or bio stuff, and how much can be captured from actual photovoltaic panels?
I’m personally convinced that those photovoltaic cells may capture far more energy comparatively.
So the logic will prolly tend to say that it is far more efficient to use the energy from 10000m2 photovoltaic into electric engines instead of 10000m2 cellulosic based stuff into ICE engines…
It’s all about efficiency. We have to think about achieving same goals by using less energy. Good cheap energy times are gone…
Mar 26th, 2009 (7:32 pm)With all the car companies scrambling for government backing, makes you kind of wonder what a warrantee/guarantee is worth, anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kmIChzVo4
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:00 pm)Absolutely amazing styling!
EV + Styling = getting girls
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:08 pm)#109 Lawrence Says: The problem is about efficiency… current ICE efficiency is about 35%… Electric motors are more or less in a +90% efficiency.
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Well, efficiency is one argument, so let’s go with it.
For a typical driver, an EREV-40 will cover 90% of your driving in electric mode, and 10% in ICE mode. So your total average efficiency would be (90%x90% + 10%x35%) or 85% average efficiency. If you went all-electric, you would get 90% efficiency. That’s a difference in 5% efficiency overall, and to get it you would have to spend tons of money and probably wait decades for it to happen.
On the other hand, you could spend that money making the mix of fuel sources for electricity cleaner (less coal, natural gas and oil, and more solar, geothermal and wind). I think this would have a much more dramatic effect.
As many here have said, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:17 pm)#108 carcus1 Says: People who don’t suffer from range anxiety are (by definition) brave, and therefore more exciting.
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More exiting, and more undependable.
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:19 pm)Tesla’s Model S Site: All the facts…
For everyone who wants the facts straight from the horse’s (or is it ampere’s?) mouth: http://www.teslamotors.com/s
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:19 pm)#105 carcus1 Says: “They are finalizing the warranty, and expect it to be 3-4 years for the car and 7-10 years for the battery pack. They expect replacement battery packs to come in at “well under $5000″ according to Elon.”
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/
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That is an absolutely incredible claim.
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I agree.
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:27 pm)kool car, looks great.
Zenn Motors also coming up with a highway-capable electric car.
from http://www.reuters.com/article/smallBusinessNews/idUSTRE52P72T20090326
Still the road block is EEstor
Interestingly ,from the same report : – Zenn has worldwide exclusive rights for use of the EEstor battery/ultracapcitor in vehicles under 14,000 kg (3,086 lbs).
As previous posts Volt weigh 3520lbs because of the battery. If GM want to use EEStor then they have to maintain a weight above 3,086 lbs.
Mar 26th, 2009 (8:34 pm)#104 Dave G
I think the temperature control (direct liquid cooling and heating) is what extends their batteries beyond the typical 5 year range. If the car is anything like the Roadster, the default mode on the car limits the SOC within a certain range also, so when you charge the car it doesn’t charge fully. You have to specifically set a “maxium range” mode for it to fully charge the battery. The idea is very few people travel 200+ miles a day so it’s pointless to charge the battery fully for daily use unless you need it.
#112 DaveG
I agree it makes much more sense if you travel less than or around 40 miles a day to just have the range extender; much more practical especially while the rapid charge infrastructure is non-existent.Some people will want the extra range though and if batteries get cheap enough, it might make more sense to do away with the engine all together. It really depends on battery price. It seems PHEV/EREVs will make much more impact in the near future at current battery prices, while BEVs (or hydrogen if the costs for it ever come down) will be where we are heading further on as we work to decrease battery costs.
#115
I don’t believe that claim either, probably misheard him or something. I didn’t see any other source post cost numbers for the battery. It could be a discounted warranty price like the one they are selling for the Roadster for $12k (which obviously is much cheaper than the battery pack price right now).
Mar 26th, 2009 (9:09 pm)Wow. Sure is a beautiful car. Too bad I can’t afford it.
Mar 26th, 2009 (9:09 pm)StopCrazy #117, you mention something that I am curious about, pack management. The Volt battery pack has a longer expected life partly because of the battery pack temperature control system. So the pack lasts longer if it is heated in the winter and cooled in the summer. But how much electricity will it take to keep the battery pack in the sweet spot? Martin Eberhard may have gotten fired by Elon, which gives him reason to badmouth the Roadster, but Martin seems to indicate that the Roadster sucks electricity even when it is not running. Just wondering.
Mar 26th, 2009 (9:21 pm)Exactly 50% of my 2-car garage has room for a BEV like the Tesla S, and the other 50% has room for a E-REV like the Volt.
I have no need for 2 BEV’s or 2 E-REV’s. One of each will fulfill 100% of my needs, because each will have unique qualites that I want.
And unlike all of you folks arguing back and forth, my BEV and my E-REV will quite peacefully sit next to each other in my garage. Stop the hate.
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:02 pm)maharguitar 60
I find it a little distracting and sometimes frustrating when people write no one will ever do this or to a lesser extent claim, I’ll never do that. Clearly people do things that haven’t been popular or common before or there would be no reason for this web site.
As for the ICE for trips from LA to the Bay Area the stimulus package has matching funds for high speed rail (finally), so eventually folks can leave their BMW’s garaged and take an electrically propelled vehicle to a modern new train station for that trip instead of going to the airport or burning gas for over 450 miles!
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:22 pm)#117 stopcrazypp Says: I agree it makes much more sense if you travel less than or around 40 miles a day to just have the range extender; much more practical especially while the rapid charge infrastructure is non-existent.
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And also since 80% of the population travels less than or around 40 miles a day.
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:32 pm)#101 Carcus1 & #115 Dave G say “That is an absolutely incredible claim.”
One take:
Q: How can you tell when Elon Musk is lying?
A: When his lips are moving.
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:43 pm)The new Tesla is the future. I drive a 2005 Ford Focus, it can travel 287 mixed miles on one tank of gas. It takes me about a week to empty a tank of gas. I could drive the Tesla all week on one charge.
I only exceed 287 miles when I drive from MI to Ohio for work. But I rent a car when I travel for work and would do the same if I had the Model S.
Ford may release an all electric car based on the Ford Focus a few years from now. An all electric car with a capacity for four days of driving on one charge is a practical replacement for most vehicles on the road.
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:48 pm)Quick-charge is the answer for electric vehicles. Filling your tank at the gas station takes time and $$$$$. Why can’t we fill-er-up with electrons in the same amount of time and will less money?
Charging a BEV in less than 10 minutes with a cost of less than $5.00 would make them practical and more economical.
Range anxiety would have less impact on the decision to purchase a BEV if quick charging were available. I worked as a “gas jockey” in my father’s service station. Filling these cars with electrons might help create a new generation of entry level jobs in filling stations all across the U.S.A.
Mar 26th, 2009 (10:48 pm)How can you possibly have range anxiety with a 300 mile range? You’d have to be a complete idiot not to be able to plan your trip within 300 miles and not run out of charge.
Pure BEVs are the way to go. Does your gas car have a range extender? No, when you run out you run out.
Mar 26th, 2009 (11:02 pm)Quote: “Fast charging stations are far from trivial. They will require very large batteries at the charging station to even out the spikes to the grid. They will require very large high-power charging cables. They will have to be covered from the rain and snow. It will be very expensive.”
The infrastructure for 440 charging stations is not in place, and will take years to develop. Batteries “to even out spikes” will not be required. The charging cable would be large, perhaps 3/4 inch in diameter. Like a typical 440 cable. 440 V welding machines are used outdoors in winter weather in shipyards all along both coasts.
But, 440V electrical faults if they occur look and act very much like a small explosion, and are hazardous to anyone within a 2 or 3 yard radius of the fault.
So I think I will stick with a 220 V outlet in my garage to charge my PHEV.
Mar 26th, 2009 (11:05 pm)______________________________________________________
Bravo Tesla! Very Elegant.
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
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Mar 26th, 2009 (11:26 pm)Ok lets get a few things straight about the Model S:
1) It’s not for people who aren’t in the market for a $50,000 car. However, considering the thousands of BMWs, Mercedes and Lexus sold in the US every year, I don’t think this will be a problem for Tesla.
2) It’s not for families that drive only one car 200+ miles per day. Fortunately, only a small percentage of people drive their cars that far on a daily basis, and most families that can afford this car own two cars anyway… so range anxiety really isn’t an issue.
3) It’s not for people who don’t live in a house with a garage and an electrical outlet. Of course, most families interested in buying a $50,000 car own a house with a garage, so they don’t have to worry about this requirement.
4) It’s not for people who love the smell of gasoline in the morning.
Mar 26th, 2009 (11:27 pm)______________________________________________________
Fist Look At The Tesla Model S Electric Car’s Giant Toughscreen Dashboard:
Source:GIZMODO
http://i.gizmodo.com/5185966/first-look-at-the-tesla-model-s-electric-cars-giant-touchscreen-dashboard?skyline=true&s=x
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Mar 26th, 2009 (11:30 pm)I wonder what the 7 passenger seating looks like. I’ve never heard of a car that size seating 5 adults and 2 children.
Mar 26th, 2009 (11:35 pm)Stunning. Absolutely stunning in every conceivable way. The only thing Tesla missed was flight.
300 mile all electric range? 0-60 under six seconds? 45 minute quick charge? Rapid battery pack swap capability? Unbelievable!
But wait! There’s more! Features that no other sedans have! 5+2 child seating? Are there any government safety standards to deal with this feature? (Hey! It might be my kids in those jump seats! What happens in a rear end collision?)
An all transparent roof? Wow. I’ve only seen that on “Pimp my Ride!” Isn’t there some sort of new roll over standard coming?
An incredible job on styling a 4 door car! Camry? Accord? Malibu? BMW 5 series? Styling losers! (I know, beauty is in the eye….)
Two trunks. (How flat is that battery? Where’s the motor with 5+2 seating?)
Chrysler came out with the “neighborhood electric vehicle” (i.e. golf cart). Ford came out with the Th!nk (how many times can you say ‘bankruptcy?’) GM came out with the EV1 (nice try!)
TESLA COMES OUT WITH THE MODEL S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I can say is, if the Tesla Roadster resulted in the Volt, what will the Model S inspire? We can only dream!
On another note, for those struggling with the math of how can you have a 300 (or 240 or 160) mile all electric range for $57 grand, THAT is the lure of the all electric car on the business side. Imagine the Volt without the “range extender” i.e., Engine, generator, associated electronics, exhaust system, gas tank/fuel system, radiator/cooling system, labor to assemble and install those system and you’re left with an electric motor, gear case, batteries and control electronics. Cheap. Batteries and electronics will fall in costs over time and the electric car will be more profitable than a gas powered car could ever be. It’s just a matter of parts count. Think about it. GM has thought about it for decades.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:05 am)#126 Does your gas car have a range extender? No, when you run out you run out.
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This comment makes 0 sense. The whole point is that you can refill gas in seconds, but it takes hours to recharge the massive Tesla batteries, even if you use high voltage. Range anxiety is still a major factor. I love BEVs, but would never buy this car, no matter what it costs, until a truly quick-charging (say, 5 minutes max) system is developed and becomes widespread. I was infatuated with Tesla long before I learned about the Volt, but it is clear to me now that EREV is the only way to go at this point. Not knocking the Model S at all- it will be a great vehicle, but it will always be a niche vehicle, until they put a range extender on it.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:13 am)Range, Volt vs. Tesla blah, blah, blah.
Here’s an example. I got an 800+ mile trip coming next week. With a conventional vehicle or something like the Volt I can drive it in two days. How would I do that if the car in the driveway was a Tesla, Model S, or any other BEV?
An E-REV can be a only car for me. A BEV can’t.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:40 am)ccombs — “Not knocking the Model S at all- it will be a great vehicle, but it will always be a niche vehicle, until they put a range extender on it.”
Steve — “An E-REV can be a only car for me. A BEV can’t.”
With due respect, check your ego at the door. Just because a car isn’t for you, that doesn’t mean there is something WRONG with the vehicle. We’re all glad you have worked out your own needs for yourself. But stop pretending that what you want is what everyone wants, so therefore you know what car is “best”.
If there were such a thing as a “best” car, everyone would all own the same car. But in case you haven’t noticed, there are hundreds of different types of cars sold at dealerships, so obviously there is no such thing as a “Best” car. So why would you think there is a “best” electric vehicle?
I’m so sick of the E-REV vs. BEV crap, with everyone trying to impose their own preferences on everyone else, and on the market.
/rant
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:57 am)I worry about rear seat head room with the now so generic bubble look… does it even affect drag to have the back room more square… it’s not like folks are driving in reverse on the highway.
The range is more than enough for me! If I had to commute even what the range is w/the standard battery pack (160 miles).. roughly 3 hours/day (15 hours/week), I’d either find a new job or move, and if I had to go father on a regular basis I’d get the upgraded range battery packs.
And this one seats 5 not just 4 like the Volt (and some others planned)!
However for those who commute 40 miles or less on a regular basis, and don’t forsee needing that 5th seat in the 5+ years they own it, the Volt may still be a better option due to the $15k savings, though there may be even better options by the time or not long after either the Volt of this Tesla S hits the roads.
As for range anxiety… I’ve run out of gas at least twice and have had plenty of range anxiety. At least with a plug-in like the Tesla’s or the Volt, I don’t have to go out of my way to recharge…. ie. plug-in at home.
But what’s nice is choices… this car is not for everyone, just as the Volt isn’t for everyone. For some the best choice for them may be a compact high milage (40+ mpg) gas sipper… for others it may be a non-plugin hybrid like the Prius or the new Honda Insight or Ford Fusion or ….
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:02 am)By the way… 160 miles/day is 58,400 miles/year… 40 miles/day is 14,600 miles/year. My soon to be 10 year old Volvo has only 82,000 miles on it. Either works as I’d use almost no gas with either.
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:06 am)Looks like an Aston. Not a surprise after the Lotus clone..
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Congrats to the Tesla team.
If GM would work with people like they do we all could drive cheap, all-electric cars 10+yrs ago.. we could be at 3rd, 4th gen, w/4-500miles range… wait that wouldn’t help the oil guys so lets build H1-2-3-s and rolling livingrooms…
Mar 27th, 2009 (4:00 am)Awesome. There is also a writeup at Wired and AutoBlogGreen.
The vehicle seats seven!
The Tesla Roadster is a nitsch vehicle, but they have still shipped 250, and the waiting list is six months. I talked to a salesman already.
Mar 27th, 2009 (4:53 am)I wonder if it will be possible to lease the Tesla. A 3 year contract would be perfect for me. That would leave the battery problem to them.
But of course they know – and a lease-option will be expensive as hell, if even offered.
That’s the difference between a startup boy-toy (Tesla) and a well engineered car (hopefully Volt).
Mar 27th, 2009 (5:54 am)Sorry if I am repeating as I have only read the first 7 so far.
In a two car household where one is an ICE or EREV, this car would be perfect. No range anxiety and such. Personally, with my 101 mile daily commute, I would love this car. I would plug it in every night or every other night. Safe, secure, no anxiety.
For trips, we use the other car.
Now, if you are a single car household, thinking twice about this purchase would be prudent. I think range anxiety could play a roll here. But shoot, how often do most people drive more than 230 miles a day?
Mar 27th, 2009 (6:25 am)Initial cost, insurance rates, and range anxiety.
The insurance companies will most likely be basing their EV premiums on vehicle weight and 0-60 times. I see this car being very expensive to own.
The Volt, with a 0-60 time of 8.5 seconds (150 HP motor), should insure at reasonable rate. Most 4 cylinder gasoline cars accelerate from 0-60 in about 10 seconds.
6 cylinder Maxima 190HP 0-6 in 7 seconds
6 cylinder Accord 240HP 0-60 in 7.5 seconds
Corolla 132 HP 0-60 in 9 seconds
Prius hybrid 0-60 in 10.4 seconds
Yaris 106 HP 0-60 in 11 seconds
Mar 27th, 2009 (7:30 am)This GORGEOUS car’s design is what can happen when inspired designers are not constrained by tired corporate rules. For me, it’s love at first sight! Compare the Model S front end with that of a recent Maserati below….
Model S: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3649/3387760121_d1ab949abd_o.jpg
Maserati: http://maddoxcomputersystems.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/2008-maserati-gran-turismo-s-1.jpg
Mar 27th, 2009 (7:40 am)#39 Dave G
I will never buy a pure BEV.
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Never say never. I’ll buy one, when the techonology is ready. This means a min of 250 miles AER in cold Michigan weather, with a recharge time of under an hour. Those are my personal guidelines. It also has to be affordable for me, which is $40K max.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:05 am)#135 Steve said:
Range, Volt vs. Tesla blah, blah, blah.
Here’s an example. I got an 800+ mile trip coming next week. With a conventional vehicle or something like the Volt I can drive it in two days. How would I do that if the car in the driveway was a Tesla, Model S, or any other BEV?
An E-REV can be a only car for me. A BEV can’t.
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While your point may be valid in this situation. I don’t think your example applies to many people in this demographic.
I would say the majority of people getting into a $57,000 electric car are at least low 6 figure wage earners (or have some coin in the bank) and are very, very unlikely to only have one ride. I can’t think of anyone I know that makes a decent wage that owns a single car.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:10 am)Prius hybrid 0-60 in 10.4 seconds
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Why list HP for all vehicles except Prius? For that matter, why state the outdated information?
Prius hybrid 134 HP 0-60 in 9.8 seconds
As for insurance, battery-pack will obviously be taken into account too. Despite being well placed deep within the vehicle, there is still an exposure to accident damage.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:20 am)a couple of points:
1. 7 year battery, $5000 cost, consumer lithium cells.. this equates to expected performance of future commercial cells.. no way you can buy this today. This is perfectly reasonable, lithium batteries are improving dramatically all the time. With the Volt you are stuck with 2007 performance for a long time to come.
2. you have a 300mile range and you still want a 5 minute recharge?.. you either are nuts or have a bladder that holds 2 gallons of piss
3. Lots of room in the car, the battery must be thin and take a lot of the under-floor space. The motor is small and there is no driveshaft so lots of room for passengers/cargo and batteries. The promise of the electric car fullfilled. The car should be very stable with all the weight down low.
4. Insurance issues.. it would be a simple matter to have the car reprogrammed at the factory to have no faster than 10sec 0-60 times.. may be a good thing if you have teenagers in the house.. you know they will want to show their friends
5. that glass roof is gorgeous, all the advantages of a convertible and no wind in your hair.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:24 am)#126 Bob
“How can you possibly have range anxiety with a 300 mile range? You’d have to be a complete idiot not to be able to plan your trip within 300 miles and not run out of charge.
Pure BEVs are the way to go. Does your gas car have a range extender? No, when you run out you run out.”
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Your last comment “when you run out you run out..I can get CAA to bring me a can of gas…what are you gonna do with a pure BEV?
First the 300 miles is an Upgrade, base is 160 miles, 230 is upgraded battery, 300 is another upgrade so add that to the cost of the car. The Tesla si using the same battery as the roadster, so $18,500 is the upgrade price (min. 160 mile Mod S range) / 200 mile (roadster range) x 23000 Roadster battery costs)
Second. Musk is assuming a major drop in price if he figures 5k replacement. You will still pay for the lab even if the pack is under warranty.
3rd if its the same batteries as the roadster, why the better warranty?
4 -its a ticking bomb, worse than gasoline. all it takes is water to make a lithium batter like a laptops to catch fire. GM is designing it for auto use and a very different design. Want proof? I will snd the charred remains of my Dell (from before the recall) water on your car is more likely that a fire in your gas tank.
Planning a 300 miile trip you say is idiot proof, why have range anxiety? here is why
I drive to Toronto semi regularly from where I live in Windsor..160 Miles will not cut it round trip, barely even one way.I will not have a 440V chargging station,
Oh Oh Oh Oh!! you could “RENT” a car Mr Kotter!!
Thanks Horseshack, but my company only rents cars for trips over 250 miles (400 km) if week long or more or day trips if less than 5 days, and it is not coming out of MY pocket, all because I cannot use a PURE BEV, EREV would be perfect, because even if the tank went EMPTY..I can have a gas can brought to me by CAA..doubt they will be able to recharge a TESLA…
Oh I get it…Get a SECOND car…sorry..don’t need one just for me, the wife has one, and no..we couldn’t swap, insurance for something to sit 3/4 of the year
so your 57k model s, with a base upgrade to a 300mile battery will now be 75000 + a second car add at least 5k for a SMALL used car..and I am hitting to 80k mark..plus all the problems of range limits, and danger (to me..and believe me..working on a laptop when it catches fire is pretty scary…) to have 8000 (8 THOUSAND!!!) of these under my ass in a rainstorm would TERRIFY me.
nice looking machine, but I will never buy one…or any pure BEV until a CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE is in place and I can recahrge in 15 minutes ANYWHERE…
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:28 am)______________________________________________________
Can Tesla Compete With The Established Car Makers?
Answer: “That aerospace company, more commonly known as SpaceX, was founded by Musk in 2002….SpaceX recently won a NASA contract to deliver cargo to the international space station when the space shuttle program is retired next year. That contract, worth $1.6 billion, was won over such industry mainstays as Boeing and Lockheed.”
Source (CNN): http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/26/tesla.new.sedan/index.html
SpaceX http://www.spacex.com
Let that sink in for a moment. We have here a guy that one day woke up and decided that he wanted to build a better rocket and seven years later is competing with Boeing and Lockheed in one of the most challenging businesses to enter. The same guy wants to build a better car.
The Electric Car Revolution is here and it will run over those car makers that are visionary challenged and/or weight challenged (debt, internal organizational bloat, UAW legacy costs, government owned). It is possible to go on a crash diet if your life depends on it.
I still love you GM VOLT. I believe the VOLTEC platform will be a big home run. I remain eager to purchase my VOLT. I want GM to succeed.
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Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Indepen
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Mar 27th, 2009 (8:33 am)I think this car completely embarrasses all those established companies who couldn’t come through with a proper electric car. Take that Mercedes, BMW, Ford, GM, Chrysler, Volkswagen etc etc.
I personally think this thing is absolutely amazing. I’m leaving for the bank to get financing to build a house that will have solar panels so, if all goes well, I can be totally carbon-free, oil company free and fuel my car with sunshine in a couple years.
Now, if Tesla would just work on a 26,000 lb truck next, I’d be set.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:35 am)#146 Statik
I can’t think of anyone I know that makes a decent wage that owns a single car.
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I have 1 car & a decent wage, as do a lot of people I know, but I /we rent cars when necessary. Or when you just dont want to put miles on your own car for a long trip.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:37 am)A 4-door 7-seater?
Maybe it just has really, really, really big cup holders.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:51 am)#149 (me)
BTW I was not trying to be insulting to anyone…with the Horseshack comment..funny was the intent, should insert the lol or Statik’s hehehe..apologies to anyone offended.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:51 am)#128 Van Says: The infrastructure for 440 charging stations is not in place, and will take years to develop. Batteries “to even out spikes” will not be required. The charging cable would be large, perhaps 3/4 inch in diameter. Like a typical 440 cable. 440 V welding machines are used outdoors in winter weather in shipyards all along both coasts.
But, 440V electrical faults if they occur look and act very much like a small explosion, and are hazardous to anyone within a 2 or 3 yard radius of the fault.
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It’s much worse than that. To fast charge a BEV with 300 miles of range in 10 minutes, that would take 360,000 watts of power. That would be 818 amps at 440 volts. Most welding machines don’t use anywhere near that power.
So a fast-charging station would require big batteries, and very thick cables, and there’s no way I would EVER plug in a 360,000 watt connection to a car that’s dripping with rain or snow. Ka-boom!
For people who dream of fast-charging stations, when you actually look at the details, it doesn’t look good.
Mar 27th, 2009 (8:52 am)The smartest thing (and no question: Musk is a smart guy) is, that Tesla doesn’t try to build own batteries. They just pack a lot of laptop batteries and bring out the car. That’s the best thing you can do right now.
Of course the batteries are wasted after three years and so the cars are big boy toys right now. But there are enough big boys with big wallets out there, to keep Tesla alive for a few years.
And in a few years, the batteries will be much better (charge faster, last longer, higher energy density) and Tesla can easily swap the batteries and build real cars. Smart move and only way to bring pure EVs out right now.
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:01 am)Tesla’s are pretty. No doubt about that. However, if I were in a buying mood, and a little less recharging infrastructure anxious, I’d get a Phoenix SUT. 10 minute recharge at 440 volt, and pricing at around $40K from what I read.
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehicles/phoenix-sut.php
It’s also a real, live, functioning vehicle today, now. I done see it for real on the TV.
http://livingwithed.net/eguide.asp?CID=6&xepisode=Season%20I
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:08 am)#150 CDAVIS Says: Can Tesla Compete With The Established Car Makers? … We have here a guy that one day woke up and decided that he wanted to build a better rocket and seven years later is competing with Boeing and Lockheed in one of the most challenging businesses to enter. The same guy wants to build a better car.
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Comparing SpaceX and Tesla is apples and oranges. It all comes down to production volume. How many rockets per year does SpaceX have to make to compete with Boeing and Lockheed? How many cars per year does Tesla have to make to compete with GM, Toyota, and Honda? How much capitol do you need to build an assembly line that can mass produce 200,000 cars per year? How many of those assembly lines do you need to compete?
I’m a big fan of Elon Musk and SpaceX. Martin Eberhard said he wants Tesla to compete directly with the big car makers. Elon hasn’t really said that. He wants to help the big car makers transition to electric by demonstrating the possibilities and licensing the technology. If Tesla doesn’t sell that many cars, but they trigger the electric revolution, Elon will be happy.
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:10 am)It is a concept made it a production car. I thought that was impossible based on the Volt and other American car concepts… Sweet looking cars always sell. The big three never seem to understand that. The price is too high though to compare to a Taurus. Not nice to pick on a car you don’t compete against. This car aims for Lexus, Benz, and Caddy models and volumes.
Saturn should just drop GM and sell Tesla cars if Tesla gets to build a plant with our money. Too bad Tesla can’t issue shares to get investment money and has to run to the government to ask for our money behind our back. No slight at Tesla, they are just using the broken system to there advantage (just like everyone else is), but we are the ones getting screwed. Oh well…
+1
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:12 am)I have been following the Volt as I also would like to sever ties with oil but I don’t understand all the naysayers on these blogs when it comes to other manufacturers of hybrids or electric vehicles.
GM didn’t invent E-REVs. They are however the first company attempting to put one into mass production. This type of vehicle has been alluded too for the past 2 decades in numerous publications and various manufacturers have built prototypes over that same timeframe. One company that was very active in this type of vehicle was Volvo. In the 90’s there was an attempt at manufacturing a race car using a flywheel for storage and a turbine instead of a ICE. The project was called Patriot.
The success of the Volt is not assured. It is being manufactured by GM and even though everybody says that they are serious now about changing the way they do business, well…. I believe I’ve heard them say that a few times over the last 3 decades. It’s a lot of new technology, packed into an expensive car, (yes it is expensive), and for the first few years it will not sell in large numbers nor will GM make a lot of money if any in the sale of these vehicles. As the technology matures and prices start to drop, which in turn will bring in more sales, then GM will start to recoup their investment. This is a long term project.
I for one want to see the Volt succeed but even if it doesn’t the electrification of the automobile will continue.
As for the BEV naysayers…. As battery capacities keep increasing you will in the not to distant future have BEVs with ranges of 1000 miles. I don’t know anyone who would be driving more than 1000 miles without stopping to either eat or sleep at which point they would be able to plug in their vehicle.
Time will tell who will win or who will lose. Personally I’ll just wait until the dust settles.
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:33 am)Fast charging a 300mile range battery in 5 minutes or less.. not for some time & with new tech (not saying never.. but i’m guessing 25 years min). Maybe a quick boost to get you home… thats it. Only way to accomplish a full charge that quick would be a battery swap system.
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:34 am)I fail to see the reasons to get angry over the Tesla model S. This car will not be responsible for the loss of 1% of Volt sales. It could be a major pain in the backside for Cadilac. IF the Tesla claims are actually true. Some are static type RED FLAGS, seating for 7, 440 volt fast recharge [of no use at home], change the battery in 5 min. and the clear plastic roof. The price is I fear a bit like wishfull thinking rather than the result of an engineered cost study.
Having said all that, I still think there is a market for the car, even if the actual price is $75,000.00 equipted.
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:45 am)#156 Ken Grub
“It’s also a real, live, functioning vehicle today, now. I done see it for real on the TV”
ROTFLOL…
and I have seen the GM’s Volt on TV,….
… and the USS Starship Enterprise, and vampires, and mutants, ninja’s, aliens.3 headed dogs, …etc etc….
Mar 27th, 2009 (9:55 am)#161 k-dawg Says: Fast charging a 300 mile range battery in 5 minutes or less.. not for some time & with new tech (not saying never.. but i’m guessing 25 years min). Maybe a quick boost to get you home… thats it. Only way to accomplish a full charge that quick would be a battery swap system.
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Right, exactly.
Tesla has done the math and come to the same conclusion: Fast Charging Stations won’t work, at least not with any technology we have on the horizon.
So now they are talking up battery swapping schemes. I have no idea if that will work out economically, so let’s just say I’m extremely skeptical.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:05 am)#160 Jorge Says: As for the BEV naysayers…. As battery capacities keep increasing you will in the not to distant future have BEVs with ranges of 1000 miles. I don’t know anyone who would be driving more than 1000 miles without stopping to either eat or sleep at which point they would be able to plug in their vehicle.
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OK, you have a point, so let’s run with it.
Battery energy density has improved at an average rate of around 9% per year for many years. Assuming this trend continues, starting with an affordable 40-mile battery in 2010, we should see a similarly sized 400 pound battery with 1000 miles of range by 2048. If I’m still around by then, I won’t be buying cars any more.
I will never buy a pure BEV.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:16 am)Not until gas gets to $9.00 a gallon…..
Until then,…
I’ll see you at the pump.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:25 am)Hope we get to a new subject soon. I am spending to much time and brain power on this subject.
I have to assume that those talking about cell chemistry and quick recharging needs know what they are talking about as this is NOT my field of expertise. If we need extremely large diameter wires to bring the charge to the battery we will need the same style of wire in the car and I would think a way of bring this charge to each individual cell and that would be thousands of wires leading to the battery. This seems to put rapid charge out of reach at this time. Hense I think the most likely way of recharging BEV cars will be induction from the road.DAM% MY HEAD HURTS!
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:43 am)I LOVE the exterior design of this Model S car. THIS is the kind of design I want GM to have for Volt 2.0! Why can’t GM hire exterior designers like Tesla has!
This is a cool looking car. It’s a little bigger in length than I expected, but it looks good. If Tesla gets the technology under the hood right and it gets reasonable range, this could be good selling car for the high end sports sedan market. People that buy Benzes, Bimmers, and Caddys will probably check this car out when it comes out in a couple of years. Hopefully, Tesla is going to get the financing to get this car on the market. This car might be a “niche car” but that doesn’t mean it won’t be successful. I can visualize plenty of people being proud to own an electric car that performs well and looks like this.
Good work Tesla!
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:45 am)Good by for now, am going to hooters to look for Captain Jack
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:47 am)#162 old man Says: I fail to see the reasons to get angry over the Tesla model S.
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My problem is with pure BEV advocates in general. They inevitably come up with a whole new infrastructure to support pure BEVs, and this will require major upgrades in our electrical grid, which will raise electric bills, increase taxes, or both.
Pure BEV advocates also inevitably bash bio-fuels, even though they are being proven to be viable.
There seems to be the notion that BEVs will solve all of our oil problems, so we don’t really need to look at anything else. But when you look at our oil consumption, only 44% can be replaced by BEVs, and we import 66% of our oil.
I wouldn’t say I’m angry, but I’m definitely concerned that the time and money invested in pure BEVs could distract us from EREVs and bio-fuels.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:49 am)Agree with others that have said: 1 E-REV and 1 BEV. For my family of 4, 1 of each is perfect. My wife and I can trade cars if we need to. My primary vehicle will be a BEV and my wife’s primary vehicle will be a E-REV.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:53 am)#165 Dave G:
“Battery energy density has improved at an average rate of around 9% per year for many years. Assuming this trend continues, starting with an affordable 40-mile battery in 2010, we should see a similarly sized 400 pound battery with 1000 miles of range by 2048. If I’m still around by then, I won’t be buying cars any more.”
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I think you’re using the wrong numbers for your calculation. A BEV like the Model S has a range of up to 300 miles, not 40 miles like the Volt. So, if you use the 9% rate with a 300 mile battery, it takes 14 years, not 38, to get to 1000 miles. And who knows what new technology will be developed in the next decade that might speed up that rate… but if you want to be adamant about not buying a BEV, then more power to you.
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:54 am)Potential market for Model S:
-Commute less than 200 miles
-No towing needs
-Dual-car households with outlet access
-Single-car households with rare 250+ mile trips with outlets that are willing to rent
-Financial ability to afford $40,000 ICE
Certainly not the widest band of the car market but plenty of potential buyers for Tesla’s global production target.
The car not only would be the first highway capable, mass produced EV sedan but also creates a whole new segment of functionality aside from the EV part (aerodynamic midsize hatchback sedan with seating for 5+2, forward trunk and storage of small SUV).On paper (meaning if the car is produced with specs and features as announced) this seems likely to me to be a real winner.
-Luxury car design at low end of like model pricing
-Seating for 5 plus 2 kids
-Large hatchback storage + forward trunk storage
-3 sizes of battery options (160, 230, 300 miles of inititial range)
-0-60 5.6sec
-starting at $57,400 ($49,900 after tax credit)
-Clear roof optional
-5 minute batttery swap capable
-Replacement battery projected to start at $5,000
-120V, 240V, and 480V built in charger with best case 45 minute quick charge capability
-All wheel drive option
Some of these claims seem pretty optimistic but not as bad as some here espouse when looked at in perspective. For example, $5,000 battery replacement estimate claim would certainly be for the smallest battery size and based on purchase somewhere around 2017 (2012 delivery + 5 year minimum life). I believe they will raise the price once VC or geovernment loans are obtained and they have some threshold of deposited orders (say 3,000).
http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/Model_S_FAQ.html
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php
I have a two-car household with outlet access are rare need of 100+ miles range. One BEV and one EREV would be fine for me. Better yet would be 2 BEV’s and one generator trailer that can double as our whole house emergency generator.
Long range quick charge BEV vs Battery Swap vs Generator Trailer
Tesla Currently says 2 out of 3 ain’t bad, which it ain’t since it’s better than anybody else is saying. I says 3 out of 3 is better. HEY TESLA! How about offering a generator trailer ready option?
Mar 27th, 2009 (10:59 am)#165 Dave Says: OK, you have a point, so let’s run with it.
Battery energy density has improved at an average rate of around 9% per year for many years. Assuming this trend continues, starting with an affordable 40-mile battery in 2010, we should see a similarly sized 400 pound battery with 1000 miles of range by 2048. If I’m still around by then, I won’t be buying cars any more.
I will never buy a pure BEV.
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If you start with a 300 Mile battery which is what Tesla is referring to and if there were no major breakthroughs then we would get there in 2024. You’re getting hung up on the Volt battery as though there is no other research being done out there or no other battery manufacturers. There is a whole world outside of GM and the Volt.
The Volt battery actually has a greater than 40 Mile range but the rest of it’s range is needed to operate with the ICE. Also there have been many breakthroughs in battery technology that will bring the 1000 mile range sooner than 2024.
My point is that both technologies will coexist for 10 to 20 years but E-REVs will ultimately give way to the BEVs.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:01 am)It’s a nice car but not for me. It’s “Cost Prohibitive”. Besides, the BEV that I need is just for commute purposes and our ICE cars for the long trek to Disneyland. The range is way more than I really need, i’m in the middle of the bell curve distro. I buy a car for it’s purpose and I understand what the limitations are.
Hat’s off to Tesla for this. It’s priced for the Mercedes, BMW caliber of car buyers. This car will be the reason Fast charge stations will get a big push. It’s a push in the right direction, you can’t argue that or the car.
Now everyone quit dissing the car and it’s batteries as NOBODY knows the lifespan of either the Volt or Teslas. And don’t try and argue how one’s test was better than the other. Remember, one comapny already has production BEV four wheels on the road and the other is still not.
I’m not a bug fan of Tesla but at least they have a production product on the road and I STILL WANT MY VOLT!
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:07 am)@old man 169
“Good by for now, am going to hooters to look for Captain Jack”
lol…
Sorry mate, I’ve been sick with the Flu and Bronchitis. Been away for a few days. Still feeling crappy but better than a few days ago.
Nyquil RULES!!!
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:09 am)Dave G #170
” wouldn’t say I’m angry, but I’m definitely concerned that the time and money invested in pure BEVs could distract us from EREVs and bio-fuels.”
EREV’s have their place and BEV’s have their place. I cannot understand why they would aggravate or annoy anybody that wants to reduce oil consumption. BEV’s are the cheapest, simplest solution. If their functionality works for people, then they are a better solution for those people. Anything with electric drive and a plug is a step in the right direction. Practical imlementation of all of them should be supported, IMO.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:12 am)To me the bottom line is, if (big if) this car comes out as advertised at $57,000 it is a great achievement, and it has a place on the automotive landscape without question.
I think what we have here with some of the comments is a classic scenario of beating down the other guy for no good reason because our own first choice is another brand or platform.
Sure there is a lot of reasons why the Volt could be perceived as better:
*your not in big trouble if your run out of juice because of the gas backup
*it has a major automaker backing it
*wide servicing network/parts
*its continual driving range is limitless
*15-20K cheaper
But there are also a lot of reason why the Tesla could be perceived as superior:
*it can be used for 99% of all trips, on 100% electric power
*it will never use any gas…ever (foreign oil/statement car, etc)
*excellent/superior performance
*doesn’t have generic 20k sedan styling
*you can seat more than 4.
/there is no right (or wrong) answer here, I’m content to just have another entry to the market
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:13 am)#170 Dave G:
“Pure BEV advocates also inevitably bash bio-fuels, even though they are being proven to be viable.”
“There seems to be the notion that BEVs will solve all of our oil problems, so we don’t really need to look at anything else. But when you look at our oil consumption, only 44% can be replaced by BEVs, and we import 66% of our oil.”
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Biofuels are clean and safe, but they are nowhere as efficient as electric power, and they require a lot more real estate to produce. A nationwide shift to biofuels would require millions of acres of land to grow the crops that are processed into biofuel, and as a result food prices would skyrocket.
As far as U.S. energy consupmtion is concerned, a shift is already taking place away from fossil fuels and towards renewable energy. Oil is still a part of our future, but by tapping in to more wind, solar and hydroelectric energy (and some biofuels too), we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Even as it stands right now, 44% is a large number, so if all ICE cars were replaced by BEVs, it would cripple OPEC.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:27 am)Great looking car. The “upper” class buyers will love it, I am sure. I am not in that “class” of buyers.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:28 am)I’ll take one.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:34 am)#170 DaveG
My problem is with pure BEV advocates in general. They inevitably come up with a whole new infrastructure to support pure BEVs, and this will require major upgrades in our electrical grid, which will raise electric bills, increase taxes, or both.
Pure BEV advocates also inevitably bash bio-fuels, even though they are being proven to be viable.
There seems to be the notion that BEVs will solve all of our oil problems, so we don’t really need to look at anything else. But when you look at our oil consumption, only 44% can be replaced by BEVs, and we import 66% of our oil.
I wouldn’t say I’m angry, but I’m definitely concerned that the time and money invested in pure BEVs could distract us from EREVs and bio-fuels.
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Alright, I got to come in now Dave, lol. Your conclusions about BEV guys in general is just inaccurate.
I’m a pure BEV guy…I don’t want any new infrastructure. I don’t want a 440V, 45 min charge, I think thats silly…charge overnight, no biggie. The ‘grid’ can handle a whoop-ass of BEVs overnight…millions of them, just the same as it can handle Volts.
Which BEV guys here are looking for a electrical grid upgrade? I’ve not heard any great clamoring for this. If we had a poll over at the iMiev forum, I don’t think you would get a very high percentage…no higher than you would here.
If anything 10,000,000 40 mile Volt E-Revs would but more of a strain on the grid than 10,000,000 BEVs.
You are always mentioning that 40 miles is right around the ‘sweet spot,’ which means that more than likely all the guys driving their Volts are going to want to charge at work, after they go out for lunch, supper…not knowing if they are going to make it all day on electric power, they basically want a plug everywhere. I’m going to coin this GAS ANXIETY…as in “Crap, I’m going to start using gas again, I need a plug here” anxiety
Basically everytime a person goes out and drives their Volt for 20 minutes, and then gets close/access to a plug…they are going to want to plug it in again.
If I have a 200 mile BEV, I have no desire to plug it at work, or after I run my errands of the day…that is just a big pain in the butt, I know I got enough to dive around for several days. For 360 days of the year, I am going just to plug it in at night (easier/cheaper rates), then drive all day without even remotely thinking about it. For most Volt drivers, they are going to be plugging it in (or wanting to plug it in) during peak hours.
I also know BEVs don’t solve all our problems, I don’t represent that…and I don’t care much if anyone else wants to use a bio fuel…in most cases that is a improvement over gas, so no big whoop, more power to you.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:36 am)#172 Eliezer Says: A BEV like the Model S has a range of up to 300 miles, not 40 miles like the Volt. So, if you use the 9% rate with a 300 mile battery, it takes 14 years,
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A Model S with a 300-mile range is not really affordable, so that’s why I didn’t use that as a baseline.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:37 am)Ai sometimes wonder whether you guys read. This is a one-off concept kit car.. With an advertised estimated price. At a price if ever they can find a way to build a 1//3 of a billiion dollar factory, that no one in Tesla has eveer doen. Right now they have nothing.
The Tesla Roadster is a Lotus and is built by Lotus just like the coming Dodge Circuit. All that
Tesla has done in 5 years is add an electric motor and batteries train, to 250 copies of a Lotus shell that that Lotus builds and ships to their handmade factory in California. They tried tobdesignand build a two-speed manual transmission and failed. Now they are back to a one-speed (ie no transmission!) design.
How many $100 of millions have been spent attaching an electric motor to a reduction gear ( called their transmission) to an axle does it take to do that. How about a college engineering course project fro a handful of student engieneers. And in five years they can’t hand-make 250 copies of :
(purchased) electric motor bolted to (purchased ) reduction gear, bolted to (purchased ) axle and wheel assembly, and bolted to (purchased) ready made car.
The good Doctor Frank at UC Davis Engineering School, build lots of car conversions by his student as course projects and I guarantee they didn’t spend even a few thousand each, as they get donated pieces, but produced driveable one-off vehicles, from roadsters to big SUVS. Th edoctors students do that easy job, so they have an experiment al appartus and then can study and evaluate the efficiency and design options in hybrids. Many of the hybrid designs were pioneered at UC Davis engineering school student projects. Many with experimental Prius type Parrallel-Serieshybrid designs as well as much simpler Series designs like the Tesla and S.
Tesla is a well meaning J-O-K-E.
Does anyonet hink thiscrew has the capability to design ,buld and operate a $350 million dollar car factory when they can’t even design a reduction gear, that rthey calk a transdmission. ?
Meanwhiel aseveral hundred acrtes of forest anda cubi cmile of ink has been expended .
If GM decide to show a consept car asat a Auto show and said well make some maybe after we get someone to build a factory fro us.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:37 am)Isn’t the cD 0.26 on the 2010 prius? This shows 0.26 can be much more beautiful and doesn’t need that hybrid “egg” body shape
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:41 am)#182 statik Says: I’m a pure BEV guy…I don’t want any new infrastructure. I don’t want a 440V, 45 min charge, I think thats silly…charge overnight, no biggie. The ‘grid’ can handle a whoop-ass of BEVs overnight…millions of them, just the same as it can handle Volts.
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I can’t argue with that.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:47 am)#182 statik Says: You are always mentioning that 40 miles is right around the ’sweet spot,’ which means that more than likely all the guys driving their Volts are going to want to charge at work, after they go out for lunch, supper…not knowing if they are going to make it all day on electric power, they basically want a plug everywhere. I’m going to coin this GAS ANXIETY…as in “Crap, I’m going to start using gas again, I need a plug here” anxiety
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Gas anxiety doesn’t involve the possibility of being stranded, so hopefully there will be a lot less of it.
As plug-ins go mainstream, plugging in during the day will start causing blackouts. When that happens, I believe society at large will provide the necessary social deterrent for day-time charging.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:56 am)My total commute to and from work is 56 miles. I know I will have to travel 16 miles on gas each day. Plug in at work? There’s no plug at work. There’s no plug anywhere unless you sneak an extension cord over to someone’s private house.
Weekends are better. I usually travel 30-40 miles each day on the weekend driving the kids around and those should be gas free.
All charging done overnight. If I ever need to go on a long trip, I use gas. That’s just the way it goes.
Mar 27th, 2009 (11:59 am)#179 Eliezer Says: A nationwide shift to biofuels would require millions of acres of land to grow the crops that are processed into biofuel, and as a result food prices would skyrocket.
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No. For many reasons.
1) Those studies that talk about millions of acres of land assume we are converting all of our oil to ethanol. I’m only talking about converting 7% of our oil – the gasoline that EREVs don’t cover.
2) Those studies that talk about millions of acres of land assume corn ethanol, which is very inefficient.
3) Cellulosic ethanol can be made from food crop residue, forest/mill waste, and municipal waste, none of which require extra land.
4) In the U.S., much of our farmland is currently idle. If we grow energy crops on just that idle land, and combine that with crop residue, forest/mill, and municipal, we can easily cover 7% of our oil consumption.
See here for details:
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:09 pm)Not Volt specific related, but it looks like the waffling ahead of tuesdays bailout deadline is firing up:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-may-give-gm-another/story.aspx?guid=%7B361C0EAE%2DEEBA%2D46AB%2D9FC7%2D07AF2D5AB80C%7D&siteid=yhoof
I like how it is worded, “to give automakers more time”…which is pretty funny, because the deadline is on the government to make a decision here, the automaker’s have done what they can, there is nothing left for them to do.. This is give themselves more time.
I think they suddenly realized it was on them-they need to act, that nothing magical is going to happen. Now they have to come up with a easy enough benchmark to give out this cash (that they are so desperate to part with)…but also to not look like a total wuss at the same time.
/everyone knows more time is not the problem to getting a deal done here
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:11 pm)#189 DaveG
I was worried there for a second, I thought you were going to start talking about hydrogen. (=
/and what a treat that discussion would be to have…again
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:14 pm)#179 Eliezer Says: Oil is still a part of our future, but by tapping in to more wind, solar and hydroelectric energy (and some biofuels too), we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
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Producing more electricity doesn’t really help with oil dependance. Only 1% of our oil is used to make electricity. 44% of our oil consumption can be replaced by BEVs, but we have enough electrical capacity for that now (assuming overnight charging).
22% of our oil consumption is for planes, ships, trains, and large trucks. None of these can be powered by batteries. But bio-diesel from algae can cover this easily, without using any crop land. An area of desert 1/10 the size of New Mexico can meet all the energy demands of the United States. See here for details:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxNeBQCRv1c
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:17 pm)#168 GM Volt Fan Says:
I LOVE the exterior design of this Model S car. THIS is the kind of design I want GM to have for Volt 2.0! Why can’t GM hire exterior designers like Tesla has!
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Have you seen the Converj?
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:17 pm)I sometimes wonder whether you guys read. This is a one-off concept kit car. At a suggested price if ever they can find a way to build a 1/3 of a billion dollar factory, that no one in Tesla has ever done. Right now they have nothing.
The Tesla Roadster is a Lotus and is built by Lotus just like the coming Dodge Circuit. All that Tesla has done in 5 years is add an electric motor and batteries, to 250 copies of a Lotus shell that that Lotus builds and ships to their hand-made factory in California.
They tried to design and build a two-speed manual transmission and failed. Now they are back to a one-speed (ie no transmission!) design.
How about a college engineering course project for a handful of student engineers. And in five years they can’t hand-make 250 copies of :
(purchased) electric motor bolted to
(purchased ) reduction gear, bolted to
(purchased ) axle and wheel assembly, and bolted to (purchased) ready made car.
The good Doctor Frank at UC Davis Engineering School, build lots of car conversions by his student as course projects and I guarantee they did not spend hundreds of millions, as they get donated pieces, but produced drivable one-off vehicles, from roadsters to big SUVS.
The Doctors students do that easy job, so they have an experimental apparatus, as a basis to do their real job. They then can study and evaluate the efficiency and design options in hybrids. And then document their results, to get a grade. Many of which ended up as published SAE R&D reports.
Many of the hybrid designs were pioneered at UC Davis engineering school student projects. Many with experimental Prius type complicated Parallel-Series hybrid designs, as well as much simpler Series designs like the Tesla and S.
Does anyone think this Tesal crew has the capability to design, build and operate a $350 million dollar car factory when they can’t even design a reduction gear, that they call a transmission ?
There are numerous people here who post having built a BEV in their garage, starting with essentially what Tesla has done ie. somebody else’s car. and jury rigging pieces, to create an electric drivetrain. How much did they spend.
That is really all that the Tesla Potemkin Village does.
Meanwhile several hundred acres of forest and probably a cubic mile of ink has been expended, espousing the Tesla wisdom.
Elon Musk is nice guy and is willing to spend parts of his fortune to PUBLICIZE and PROSELYTIZE the electric vehicle. If he needs the facade of a car company to do so, so be it. I guarantee that Tesla has a magnificent Publicity Department. That is what is important, to Mr. Musk. Tesla is a well meaning J-O-K-E, otherwise. Don’t hold your breath waiting for the production Tesla S. But you will see acres of publicity for the one or two concepts cars they will show off.
If GM decided to build and show a concept car at a Auto Show and said we might make some maybe after we get someone to build a factory for us to do so. And buy the way the price will be $57,000. if we ever do.
Don’t you think some reporter one would say:
When when will it be available;
Where will you build it;
Why do you think it will pass the FMVSS
What are the remaining obstacles;
How did you estimate the selling price ?
Didn’t see any of this, did you?
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:20 pm)#191 statik,
Hydrogen? What’s that?
Seriously though, I was fooled by hydrogen at first, so I’m now a bit more careful about red herrings, which is why I started taking a closer look at fast-charging station issues.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:25 pm)#184 stas peterson Says:
Does anyonet hink thiscrew has the capability to design ,buld and operate a $350 million dollar car factory when they can’t even design a reduction gear, that rthey calk a transdmission. ?
Meanwhiel aseveral hundred acrtes of forest anda cubi cmile of ink has been expended .
If GM decide to show a consept car asat a Auto show and said well make some maybe after we get someone to build a factory fro us.
=======================
…and people complain about my spelling?
(just kidding with you stas)
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:41 pm)185 Mike D Says:
Isn’t the cD 0.26 on the 2010 prius? This shows 0.26 can be much more beautiful and doesn’t need that hybrid “egg” body shape
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Wow, i didn’t catch that. Interesting. Does a 3rd party need to verify this CD?
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:42 pm)#188 Mark A Says: My total commute to and from work is 56 miles… Weekends are better. I usually travel 30-40 miles each day… If I ever need to go on a long trip, I use gas.
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Your commute is much longer than typical, but let’s see how much gas you would use.
With a yearly driving pattern of:
• 100 days at 35 miles per day (weekends)
• 250 days at 56 miles per day (commute)
• 3 days at 450 miles per day (long trip)
With this non-typical driving pattern, and assuming you only charge at night:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 105
Prius ………………… 377
30 MPG car ………… 628
20 MPG car ………… 943
Here’s the spreadsheet I used to calculate:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Like I have been saying:
It is going to be a long time until Nov, 2010……
Two things:
I am a bit confused how 14,000 Kg = 3086 lbs!!!
And I love how we argue what battery replacement costs will be five to ten years later, for a car that is not yet in production. I think we have way too much time on our hands!!
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:48 pm)Help! I can’t get over my range anxiety!
No Range Extender No Sale!! Add No Plug No Sale!! equals:
NPNRENS!!
#169 old man:
I was going to say I’d meet you down there if you found him, but I guess #176 put paid to that for today. Too bad. After going through this thread and the one before, we sure deserve it. Maybe next Friday. If we’re too far apart, maybe we can do it by Skype or something. I hope you feel better Capt. A hot toddy does wonders, or so they tell me.
#196 statik:
LOL. Or Dr. Dennis’ spelling, or mine come to that. All my bragging about being the King Of The Typos, and I just got blown away.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:54 pm)#194 stas peterson Says: The Tesla Roadster is a Lotus and is built by Lotus just like the coming Dodge Circuit. All that Tesla has done in 5 years is add an electric motor and batteries, to 250 copies of a Lotus shell that that Lotus builds and ships to their hand-made factory in California.
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This is not quite right.
The Roadster was designed by Tesla. Yes, they used the Lotus Elise as a starting point, but in the end, 90% of the parts are different from the Elise. In particular, the Roadster uses a carbon-fiber body, where the Elise uses a metal body. It’s a different car.
Also, the reason that the transmission didn’t work out was that it ran at 13,000 RPM. Nobody had ever attempted a transmission like that before, so they were paving new ground on this.
Mar 27th, 2009 (12:56 pm)#200 noel park,
Right!
NPNRENS
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Pricing…
YES..lets remember that is speculation, and based on the 160 mile battery base model..not 300..
as to the 1000 mile AEL..Why wait till 20xx I can do it now..you just need a truck bed to haul the battery, no wif you want same size..then you have to wait (can you imagine 250000 cells for an AER of 1000 miles? WHEW!!
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:11 pm)#192 Dave G:
“22% of our oil consumption is for planes, ships, trains, and large trucks. None of these can be powered by batteries. But bio-diesel from algae can cover this easily, without using any crop land. An area of desert 1/10 the size of New Mexico can meet all the energy demands of the United States.”
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You make a good point… so I guess the bottom line is that no single energy source can replace oil. Both electricity and biofuels are needed in the end… and yes, trucks, planes, ships and trains can’t use battery power. However, consumer interest is in cars, not commercial vehicles, and since cars can utilize battery power, that is why it is getting so much attention.
If the biofuel technology that is in development right now (like algae) can get to a point where enough fuel can be processed to replace the demand for oil — without taking up agricultural resources — then it might be viable option. We’ll just have to wait and see…
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:19 pm)Dave G:
Plus, car companies are not going to develop biofuel vehicles unless biofuel stations are plentiful in the U.S., whereas producing a BEV does not need to rely on fuel infrastructure since it can be recharged at home. So don’t blame Tesla for doing what makes sense.
Mar 27th, 2009 (1:45 pm)#192 Dave G & #204 Eliezer:
Trains can be powered by electricity from overhead wires or 3rd rails. It’s done all over the world, for both freight and passengers. When liquid fuels get expensive enough, and/or when the externalized costs of same become internalized, it will happen here.
Mar 27th, 2009 (2:41 pm)People whose main ‘negative’ for a BEV is that you can’t drive more than (in this case) 250 miles at once.
First off, who the hell drives that much in one go, except for vacations?
If you honestly drive that much in a day, you need to reconsider your proximity to work.
Second, you’re driving an ICE now, correct?
Who says you have to get rid of it when you buy a BEV?
Insurance companies here can switch your policy from one vehicle to another in a 5 minute phone call (and back when you want it back).
Gee, it’s so expensive to keep that old ICE parked in the driveway/garage/back yard/[insert place here] for the times when I don’t need it. Oh, right. It costs nothing.
Oh, and tesla uses 18650 cells (18 diameter, 65 mm long), not AA’s (whoever corrected it earlier is right, they’re laptop batteries).
Also, they aren’t all li-ion (the ones that tend to explode) – I have four 18650′s right here that are LiFePO4′s (the same battery chemistry to be used in the volt; the ones that have much lower chance of thermal events)
The only downside is half the capacity and slightly lower voltage.
3.2v/1500mAh for LiFePO4′s vs 3.7/2500 mAh for li-ion.
I can get two lifepo4 18650′s shipped to my house for $6.90 US.
Buy them in massive bulk quantities, and you could probably cut that cost in half. (for anyone who wants to calculate costs for things :p)
Mar 27th, 2009 (2:56 pm)#207 canehdian Says: Second, you’re driving an ICE now, correct?
Who says you have to get rid of it when you buy a BEV?
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My insurance company. Where I live, it costs a lot more to insure an extra car.
Mar 27th, 2009 (2:59 pm)#207
Gee, it’s so expensive to keep that old ICE parked in the driveway/garage/back yard/[insert place here] for the times when I don’t need it. Oh, right. It costs nothing
From your name I assume you live in Canada..
Better check your information, becuase you have to have insurnace on ALL your vehicles registered in your name, whether you use them or not. if only liability.
Its not 250 miles its 160, are you converting to Kilometers?
Laptop batteries do burn (quite well actually) I have the Dell to prove it (although its hard to tell what it is). all it takes is a bit of water, they don’t explode..they BURN.
as for travel..I exceed that about every 4 weeks on a wekly run to Toronto…otherwise range is fine..but see my post earlier.
an EREV can have a can of gas delivered and refuelling structure is everywhere. A pure BEV cannot match that at this time.
Mar 27th, 2009 (5:27 pm)Now this car can get me laid, drive fast and save the planet.
Isn’t that what we all need?
I am not sure the GM-Volt can do all three. I hope it can though.
Mar 27th, 2009 (5:41 pm)7 seat!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF.
160 miles for $50K, so lame!
Great, another car tesla promises but will not deliver. There will be more volts on the road than roadsters by August.
Bunch of Ph.d s thinking they know how to build a car. I think i saw a teenager on youtube build an electric car too….
I think its odd they are building a NEW plant to build this car. there are TONS of idle assembly plants around the US that could support this, VERY GREEN OF YOU TESLA!
GO VOLT
Mar 27th, 2009 (5:49 pm)If the car is not on the road, it doesn’t have to be insured here. I could park 4 cars in my driveway, and as long as I only have plates on one of them and only drive one at a time (and that one is on the insurance company’s register) then the rest can sit there as long as they want. I know a few people who have summer and winter cars and they sure as hell don’t pay twice for insurance. When they want to switch to their other car, they just notify the insurance company that one is on the road and the other is off, and they’re good to go.
And you missed the whole point on the batteries. I said not ALL explode.
The LiFePO4 chemistry is available in laptop-sized cells as well as prismatic cells for cars.
LiFePO4 is the “safe” chemistry (quotations, because nothing is ever 100% safe)
Also forgot that LiFePO4 is supposed to last twice as long as li-ion. So while you have half the capacity, you get double the life, so they’re roughly equal in terms of total energy storage over lifetime
Mar 27th, 2009 (6:17 pm)They could start selling them tomorrow en masse if they had them. Lets face it this is a stunning product that flattens anything that Merc, BMW, Audi can offer and leaves the Volt for dead.
Considering they can drive around in it now, 3rd quarter 2011 seems a heck of a long time away. Who knows what the competition will be by then. It gives the opposition too long to catch up. Sometimes I am confused about Tesla’s mission. Is it to kick ass and become the numero uno auto maker on the planet or is it trying merely to be a catalyst for the industry? On the strength of this they could be so if they wanted.
If the hold up is building a factory then I agree with an earlier comment that they should use an existing factory – maybe subcontract production to one of the big three.
Mar 28th, 2009 (3:37 pm)I think they are thinking about the big bucks in selling technology to other car makers. That would be Lusk’s best bet on actually getting his investment money back.
Mar 29th, 2009 (6:18 pm)300 miles and a 45 minute recharge? I’m game! After driving 300 miles a 45 minute break ain’t a bad plan.
Mar 29th, 2009 (11:19 pm)@ Dave G 4
Too late. You already did. Or did you not know that our public transportation system includes electric vehicles?
Mar 30th, 2009 (10:10 am)To put things in perspective:
Telsa has already exceeded the on street sold automobile production that Ferrari did in its first full eight years of production sales.
A small sample of reality checks:
“subcontract production to one of the big three.” Who are the “big three” – would that be Toyota, Hyundai and Tata, or Toyota, VW and Kia, or who? Then again, I do seem to recall a big, empty facility in Blue Springs, MS waiting for the tools and lines to start churning out … ?
“refuelling structure is everywhere. A pure BEV cannot match that at this time.” True. A pure BEV exceeds that at this time. There are hundreds of millions of electrical outlets all over the US to a mere thousands of gas stations. You can always find electrical outlets at gas stations while the opposite is not true. When’s the last time you filled you gas tank at home while you were sleeping at night? If I run out of juice near a residential house in the middle of nowhere, which am I more likley to find – electricity or a 500 gallon buried (probably leaky) tank of flammable gas with an electrically powered gas pump to the the gas out of it?
“My total commute to and from work is 56 miles.” Yep, that larger than average commute would the cause of many, many of our economic problems. And the solutions are? I suppose if we have morbid obesity in our children and our vehicles, why not our commutes?
“Great, another car tesla promises but will not deliver. There will be more volts on the road than roadsters by August.” Huh? To date, Telas has sold to customers more than 250 electric cars to GM”s zero in it’s entire history (it only leased them), so the math tells us that Tesla has infinitely more electric car production than GM. August? The sales to fleets date for the Volt is not scheduled until November 2010 and for sales to individual consumer, who knows, they haven’t said. Tomorrow is always a day away for GM when it comes to electric vehicles. All the successful automakers who make fuel efficient vehicles already ate GM’s lunch, so I suppose it’s time for electric car company startups to start eating their desert, too.
“planes, ships, trains, and large trucks. None of these can be powered by batteries” misses the relevant point. All of them can be powered by electric drive, which improves your energy efficiency by at least 60% right there. Who cares what the fuel sources and energy carriers used to do so are? Those’ll change over time and different combinations are possible as appropriate for different applications.
Please note that I am staying on topic and being very, very nice relative to the factual information I could state.
Mar 30th, 2009 (2:43 pm)What a great article, Lyle. Thank you for bringing it to us. A couple of points besides echoing the praise for the styling and all-electric range.
1. Anyone who doesn’t want a BEV (no ICE, no terrorists funding foreign oil!) can stick to their gasoline addiction. They say it’s tougher to kick than H*E*R*O*I*N
200 miles works perfectly for me; requires one charge per week. That doesn’t seem too difficult to me, to remember to plug in at night once a week.
I only wish I could afford one (lottery gods please smile upon me!).
2. I find it ironic that a few posters were consumed by the looks of the car and its interior. I wonder what they were thinking when they bought the car they drive now? “Gosh, driving this car is going to send thousands of dollars EACH YEAR to terrorist organizations and eventually indirectly cause the deaths of hundreds of young men and women. But I just LOVE that dashboard. Sign me up!”
Of course, that was just me being silly. None of the people on this board thought about that (including me) when we made the decision to buy the gasoline- or diesel-powered (ICE) car we now drive. The question is, what is your NEXT car going to be.
Mine is going to be all electric and I’ll pay my electric utility extra to get most (if not all) of my power from renewable sources. That’s my choice. You make your own.
3. I stopped driving my own car on long trips many years ago. Why would I want to decrease my resale value and increase wear and tear of my own car? I drive a rental car. They’re usually nicer than a car I could afford myself and it gives me a chance to try out a different vehicle once in a while. If it’s for business your company will probably pay the rental fees anyway. Now all I need is an excuse to take a business trip (don’t work there anymore).
Mar 31st, 2009 (12:11 pm)N Riley Says:
“Great looking car. The “upper” class buyers will love it, I am sure. I am not in that “class” of buyers.”
I hate to say it, but New Car Buyers are already a subset of the population that is wealthier than those folks that only ever buy used cars.
I really get tired of people complaining that they can’t afford something, so therefore there is something wrong with whatever it is that they can’t afford.
Mar 31st, 2009 (7:58 pm)What IS needed is a small, Pontiac Wave-sixe pure BATTERY ELECTRIC vehicle with somewhere around 80 km range…That would cover MOST urban commutes…
Forget the GEE-WHIZ screens 18″ alloy wheels and hyperstyling…how about a ZennCar-simple GM electric?
Sure…the profit margin is LOW…but, I think that VOLUME production rather than expensive ‘niche’ production is what GM should be looking at…Leave the “Tesla” to Tesla…and pare down the Volt to an affordable $15,000 level…and YOU HAVE MY VOTE.
I’d love to drive to work (around 10 km each way) in a pure electric…charging at night where, in Toronto, with our ‘smart’ meters…we get a lower electricity cost…
In the past, I’ve been tempted to fill the back seat of some small vehicle and convert the drivetrain to electric in a basic way (lots of kits available)…but, why can’t GM MAKE a basic electric?
It may be too late if Mr. Obama and crew keep pulling the strings…
Finally…YOU CAN BET that the Chinese are working on a low-buck electric for their foray into North America…
BE READY, GM…
As for the workers making $70 plus with benefits…hey, I make $15 hour…with NO benefits…and I get by…
If the GM / Chrysler workers want to keep their company…just accept that HAVING a job at $30 / hr with minimal benefits is BETTER than having a ‘McJob’ at $12 hour…or NO JOB AT ALL…which is the likely outcome, if the CAW and UAW don’t stop clinging to a lost dream…
wow.
Just take a deep breath…everyone…WE can make it…GM can make it…but only if not held hostage by unreasonable wage demands and car models that DON’T hit the target…
B in Toronto
Well?
Apr 5th, 2009 (2:35 am)[...] See original here: Tesla Model S Unveiled | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site [...]
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:02 pm)Good business that is growing, not drying up in the field.
Run a proper business and no “bailouts” required, when’s the last time the big 3 needed to expand production?
Right now I’m in no position to buy ANY car but thats all the more reason I want tesla to survive, so I can afford one soon.
Mass prodution can do wonders(done right)
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:19 pm)No s**t! How many times have you heard of someone having to replace an engine or tranny right after the warranty goes out ie: $8000.
And the new battery would be like a fresh engine and damn near paid for from all the savings on “regular” maintenance.
GM had there chance in the past and blew it, I just hope they answer Tesla’s wake up call.
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:27 pm)Would that explosion be worse than say 10 gallons of unleaded and 5 quarts of 10/30?
Just wondering
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:49 pm)Pure BEVs are the way to go. Does your gas car have a range extender? No, when you run out you run out.
Well put my friend
Aug 27th, 2009 (8:56 pm)rent a car!
enjoy the savings the rest of the time
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:01 pm)Agree, agree oh, and agree
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:05 pm)To the wimpmobile robin!
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:12 pm)Then get a gas car, or a horse (no batteries to get wet)
Aug 27th, 2009 (9:32 pm)I aint knocking Biofuel(other than putting corn in the tank instead of my stomach) but 44% is 44% no matter what replaces it.
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:06 am)GAS ANXIETY………………Gotta love it!
Well written, Gimme a plug in a couple days
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:14 am)Uh! Water to grow stuff in the DESERT.
Aug 28th, 2009 (2:28 am)What’s the last thing you sold for 100k that had a 1000 person waiting list?
And do ya think GM is gonna sell one of there plants to a company that wants to make EV’s????????