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President’s Auto Task Force Expected to Give More Aid to GM and Chrysler

March 26th, 2009 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that within days the President’s Task Force on Autos is expected to announce more government aid for embattled automakers GM and Chrysler.

Interviews with Task Force members suggest the administration doesn’t want to automakers to slip into bankruptcy protection. Rather they are expected to say they see viable futures for the companies, but only if management, union, and bondholders make sacrifices. A new “firm timeline” for concessions will be provided.

The Task Force has been charged with a very daunting task that some pundits say they are ill prepared for. The team is led by Steven Rattner, a former journalist, who analogizes saving the auto industry to solving a Rubik’s cube. “It’s like a Rubik’s cube, trying to untwist it and trying to get all the colors to line up,” he said. “So we’ve learned a lot about how car dealers work, and how companies get paid when they sell a car to a dealer, and why there are a certain number of dealers more than are optimal. Have we learned everything? Of course not, but I think we are learning what we need to learn to do this job.”

Besides not yet achieving concessions from the UAW and bondholders, predicting future auto demand is also a big challenge for the team

“The biggest variable the team has had to wrestle with,” he says, is “what the demand for cars will be in five years.”

It appears likely that GM will be receiving the $16.6 billion it is asking for, but is unlikely to be getting it as a lump sum, but rather in a metered fashion as certain negotiating milestones are met.

Looks like we’ll be getting our Volts after all.

Source (Wall Street Journal)

Posted by: Lyle

143 Responses to “President’s Auto Task Force Expected to Give More Aid to GM and Chrysler”

Dave B Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:25 am

A senator said more “strings” will be attached as reported by numerous television outlets (CNBC and CNN) this morning. I wonder if that means ownership. I’m also bothered by the fact that the UAW has made no concessions. Take a hint from the Canadian UAW who apparently gave up a lot.

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:31 am

As the task force can go from knowing nothing to knowing everything about a complex industry in just a month, maybe they could take another month and lay out a plan for curing cancer, heart disease, and aids. Who needs experts when a few dozen billions are at hand?

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SteveK Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:37 am

It’s disappointing that Rattner had to ‘learn’ anything. Are there no unbiased experts that could have been tapped for this? When it was first announced that the task force would be under Geithner and Summers, I was a bit surprised. Finance is sure important, but doesn’t someone need to know something about the automobile business to do this job?

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SteveK Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:39 am

I was up in Canada a couple of weeks ago, and I did not get the impression the Canadian UAW was ‘giving up a lot’, at least not in comparison to the US. Another factor is that Canada has Natiional Health Care—like every sane nation on Earth.

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MarkinWI Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:45 am

RB @#2 – I don’t think anyone is claiming that the government can run these businesses, only that as lenders they can set some parameters for the financial stability of these companies. Bankers make the same determinations about businesses every day. It’d be tough for the Administration to be any worse at it than the banks.

Yesterday @# 12 Johnny Said:

“A company could never use a “waiting list” compiled from a thrid party blog unaffiliated with their company. The legal considerations alone make this impossible.”

Johnny, pray tell what are the legal considerations to which you refer? Short of something in the dealership agreements, I can’t think of any barriers, and they could probably find a way to make it happen even then if they really wanted to do it. GM owns the cars, no consumer would have standing to sue if the product was sold to one person over another. Look at the EV-1 “screening process” they set up.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:52 am

It would have be nice if the ‘task force’ just hired some people that understood the car business…but what can you do? (I know they annoyed the Fiat guys pretty good, lol)

It seems the order of the day is preservation at any cost…which makes all those hearings and overtures from the president (et al) pretty worthless.

Quite frankly, I think the people that were chosen to lead the task force where in so far over their head that they are simply choosing (again) to push the problem down the field a bit farther. (once we get numbers we can tell how far)

I’m sure this money (like all the rest) won’t just be given out, there will be another ’stern talking to’ and maybe some more conditions put on a portion of the money….but you can only cry wolf so many times.

/when your doling out trillions, it is pretty easy to flitter away a few billion (even though this will bring the total tab over 100 billion)

Speaking more broadly…If I was a average US person, I’d be worried about what the cost of all of this is going to be to my future…or if I’m older, my kids future. Money isn’t free.

//but heck, despite logic or reason (or viability), my Volt lives on…huzzah!

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NZDavid Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:53 am

I was really hoping Statik would be wrong on this one, to stop the death by 1000 cuts senario, but he’s called it right again.

The bondholders played hardball, and the government blinked, again.

Unless the task force mans up and says “we have this GSB ready to go if you can’t agree . . .” the bondholders will never fold. If the bondholders don’t why should the UAW?

/I don’t really know why I’m so upset about it. It’s not my taxes funding the never ending loan.

LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.

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NZDavid Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am

Statik says:
//but heck, despite logic or reason (or viability), my Volt lives on…huzzah!

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well.
Tagamet et al, thanks for your never ending positivity, and tax dollars. Now get back to work, we need your taxes!

/And he snuck in 1 minute ahead of my last post.

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Guy Incognito Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am

9.
Guy Incognito Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am

Free money for everyone & everything

=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Van Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:00 am

Typical “plan for a plan” admission of no viable agreement. Same ol, same ol.

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:04 am

#5 MarkinWI said
RB @#2 – I don’t think anyone is claiming that the government can run these businesses, only that as lenders they can set some parameters for the financial stability of these companies. Bankers make the same determinations about businesses every day. It’d be tough for the Administration to be any worse at it than the banks.
—————————————————-

From my vantage point, the government is doing a whole lot worse, in that they are sending my money into a black hole. At least the banks thought they were sending their own money, and they thought that was backed up by an agreement that if they didn’t get their money back they would get some assets in its place. Now what is happening is that my (taxpayer) money is being sent to GM to send to the banks, and elsewhere.

And to make worse even worser there seems to be no end to this process. Really, all sorts of “conditions” were set in December and then ignored in January, and more for February that are being ignored in March. Do you remember what Wagnor said at the hearing in December was the “worst case scenario”? We are far beyond that now.

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frankyB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:12 am

Statik, I understand your point of view, but at the same time you have to admit that the US poored 10 times more money in the banking system without that much control or way to control/mesure the results. It’s not the amount the issue here, it’s control.

I’m not saying they should not have more control, on the contrary, I think it’s good, it’s a matter of what will be those control/milestone elements.

May be they are learning from the banking mess.

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Gordon Green Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:22 am

The Auto Task Force appears to be window dressing to hide the fact that no serious attempt will be made to force GM and Chrysler to make the hard decisions to make them viable companies.

Obama and the taxpayer will loan GM and Chrysler whatever they need, as long as a public facade makes it appear the strict conditions are being imposed.

The UAW and GM bondholders obviously don’t expect the strict conditions to be enforced. The government hasn’t even enforced the conditions on the loans given to date.

I hope I’m wrong. I really wanted a competitive domestic auto industry.

The bright spot is we’ll be able to buy a Volt by November 2010.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:29 am

#3 SteveK Says: It’s disappointing that Rattner had to ‘learn’ anything. Are there no unbiased experts that could have been tapped for this?
————————————————————————————–
In my experience, there is no such thing as an unbiased expert. By the time someone has learned a subject thoroughly, they have formed opinions. As circumstances change, many expert opinions do not.

So I think it makes sense to bring in someone from the outside to re-evaluate things fresh under current circumstances. These guys are smart, and I’m sure they’re asking many experts with many different opinions to get the full picture.

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:30 am

I’d rather give them $ now, let them build cars, and collect taxes back on salaries etc. vs. let them go bankrupt, still give them $ on welfare, collect no taxes, and no cars get built.

Michigan unemployment at 12% now

(well, we made if few days w/out bean-counter talk.. guess it was time)

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:31 am

#13 Gordon Green says “The bright spot is we’ll be able to buy a Volt by November 2010.”
—————————————————

Actually, since each billion covers 25,000 Volts at $40,000 each, we will all be getting one at no additional charge.

Errata: In my #11, “Wagnor” should of course have been GM CEO Wagoner. It was because of a bad editor

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:35 am

#7NZDavid said:

/I don’t really know why I’m so upset about it. It’s not my taxes funding the never ending loan.
———————-
Ironic, isn’t it?

It seems the people living outside the boiling pot seem to have to most concern.

(btw, nice use of the ‘/’…I like that)

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:41 am

#17 statik said
Ironic, isn’t it?
It seems the people living outside the boiling pot seem to have to most concern.
—————————————————

From where I live it does not seem that way. The furor over the AIG bonus payments, while misdirected in many respects, reflects the public mood that I see and hear. People are angry.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:45 am

#6 statik Says: It would have be nice if the ‘task force’ just hired some people that understood the car business…
————————————————————————————–
I think most people that understand the car business in detail already have a vested interest in what happens here, so you don’t have to hire them. They’ll give their opinions for free.

In fact, if one expert is giving you B.S., and you run that by another expert, they will call out the flaws. A smart guy with general knowledge in the area will be able to figure things our pretty fast. The more tricky part is the history of past issues and the internal politics that creates.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 8:56 am

#18 RB said:

#17 statik said
Ironic, isn’t it?
It seems the people living outside the boiling pot seem to have to most concern.
—————————————————
From where I live it does not seem that way. The furor over the AIG bonus payments, while misdirected in many respects, reflects the public mood that I see and hear. People are angry.
==================
==================

Sorry, RB. I knew once I hit submit that it was too wide a brush. A good number of people in the US know what the score is and are unhappy. (yourself included)

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:02 am

#19 Dave G says
In fact, if one expert is giving you B.S., and you run that by another expert, they will call out the flaws. A smart guy with general knowledge in the area will be able to figure things our pretty fast.
———————————————————–

On the other hand, the book Outliers gave a number of examples that showed that the best people in most fields of endeavor — from athletics to computer programming — have about 10,000 hours of experience in that field. Many, many many hours of experience of dealing with individual situations are a part of the background that allows one to learn the multitude of special cases and exceptions that one has to take into account to really know what to do. It’s not just a few big-picture ideas.

I hope the bridges that you travel over each day were built by people who had taken more than the first month of the first course, whether in their engineering or their construction (and I’m sure they were). If one thinks about GM, then if laying out a great plan required only about a month’s background, why was no one at GM smart enough to have figured that out? However critical people might be of where GM is today, it is certainly true that there are a lot of people in the corporation that would have grasped such an elementary concept and made good use of it, had it been true. The reality is that GM’s problems are deep and difficult, and tossing around a few artful phrases is not going to be good enough.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:03 am

#9 Guy Incognito Says: Free money for everyone & everything
————————————————————————————–
Just to be clear, bailouts are loans, not free money.

In 1979, the U.S. government bailed out Chrysler with $1.5 billion in loans ($4.4 billion in todays dollars). At the time, many people thought it was free money, and many were saying that Chrysler should go into bankruptcy or be liquidated. By 1983, the loans were fully repaid, and Chrysler remained a strong company for many years after that.

This is an example of how it is supposed to work. Of course, there is always the possibility that the company that gets bailed out won’t be successful, and ends up being liquidated. In that case, the U.S. government is first in line for the proceeds of the liquidation, which should pay off the majority of the loans.

So either way, it’s not free money…

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:03 am

statik,

You make a good point about no one meeting the concessions deadline. Moreover, the government stepped in and paid off some crucial suppliers directly. Why aren’t the UAW, dealerships and bondholders coming to the table? Is bankruptcy the only means by which it will happen?

I suspect there isn’t much to cut on the GM corporate side (they’ve shed jobs and constantly restructured for years) other than selling off or shutting down entire nameplates – Saturn, Pontiac, Hummer, Saab, etc.

I also think you are right that the smarty-pants’s who were elected and appointed to fix everything now realize they have a tiger by the tail. I was just debating Texas in the forum as to the foolishness of administrations who think they are smarter than anyone who came before (JFK, Clinton and now Obama). Bridge loans from the government are going to be necessary until capital markets have enough liquidity to once again lend to automakers and financial institutions alike. Meanwhile, all automakers are going to have to adjust to a market that has retracted 40%.

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:09 am

#20 statik —> …and you make a good point that many people outside the US are following the situation closely and have critical judgments. Realistically, the USA is a big country, and today there are people dealing with snow storms, people dealing with floods, and other people worrying about how soon they can get to the beach to enjoy the sun. There are lots of people working on their own jobs and paying only the most superficial attention to the government or anything about car companies. Nonetheless, there are many who are paying attention, especially because of the big dollar amounts involved.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:10 am

#19 DaveG said:

I think most people that understand the car business in detail already have a vested interest in what happens here, so you don’t have to hire them. They’ll give their opinions for free.

In fact, if one expert is giving you B.S., and you run that by another expert, they will call out the flaws. A smart guy with general knowledge in the area will be able to figure things our pretty fast. The more tricky part is the history of past issues and the internal politics that creates.

==========================
Thats is the problem though. These guys haven’t figured it out…they have had 3 months to come to a decision on the problem and they still don’t know the business. Obviously they need to understand the business before they can fix and/or destroy and rebuild it.

Just read this quote…(from the HEAD of the task force)

“It’s like a Rubik’s cube, trying to untwist it and trying to get all the colors to line up,” he said. “So we’ve learned a lot about how car dealers work, and how companies get paid when they sell a car to a dealer, and why there are a certain number of dealers more than are optimal. Have we learned everything? Of course not, but I think we are learning what we need to learn to do this job.”

We have learned how car dealers work? How companies get paid? We are learning what we need to do this job? I mean…what the heck? Your job was to come to a decision about what to do with the industry, what the best course of action to take is… and to evaluate viability plans by this TUESDAY.

Billions of dollars are being flushed every week…gratz on learning how GM gets paid when a dealer sells a car.

/makes the decision to put out more money easy to understand – “pay to make the problem go away” and right now that seems to be the answer to everything

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:11 am

#21 RB Says: …the best people in most fields of endeavor — from athletics to computer programming — have about 10,000 hours of experience in that field. Many, many many hours of experience of dealing with individual situations are a part of the background that allows one to learn the multitude of special cases and exceptions that one has to take into account to really know what to do.
————————————————————————————–
OK, so take two computer programmers with 10,000 hours of experience each, and ask them how to solve an unusual computing problem. You’re likely to get 2 very different answers.

Everyone’s experience is a little different. To get the best ideas, it usually takes a group of experts with slightly different backgrounds.

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Ray Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:12 am

Take a look at allcarselectric.com.. The review for 2010 Prius is there.. They are getting 70 MPG.. Cost of the car starts @ $ 23,500 base price….. If you are like me and looking at fuel efficiency…. and car pricing….. a $40,000 Volt (with an average of 50 MPG for someone like me ) is not going to do it.

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PLJ Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:14 am

This is good news. If Obama and company do only ONE thing during their administration it must be to save the American auto companies.

This MUST be job one.

Sorry to all you Laissez faire types (of which I am one!). Free enterprise does not exist anywhere in the world anymore, at least not for big business.

The Chinese, the Japanese, et. al. subsidize their auto industries big time. If we don’t play the same game that we let them play on our own soil, we will lose.

If you sit down at a poker game, and you play Gin Rummy, you will lose every time, and the other players will consider you a sucker.

We have to at least play the game being played or we have no chance of winning.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:16 am

#27 Ray Says: Take a look at allcarselectric.com.. The review for 2010 Prius is there.. They are getting 70 MPG..
————————————————————————————–
To put this in perspective, With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………….. 37
70 MPG car ………… 163
60 MPG car ………… 190
50 MPG car ………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570

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Shawn Marshall Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:19 am

OK Let’s assume the government is going to keep giving our money, which it is borrowing from the FED now, to GM and Chrysler and maybe Ford before it’s over. At some point let’s hope the recession moderates and new growth commences. Is GM going to suddenly be competitive with Toyota and Honda?
If the Volt is the big success we all hope for will it cause Toyota and Honda to respond? Are they hard at work on the car to undermine the Volt’s market?
Let’s talk about putting lipstick on a PIG.

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Adrian Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:25 am

#4, and their health care sucks compared to ours as over priced and broken as the USA has it!

Health care (in the US) is set up to be run through ‘evil’ corporations by giving companies tax breaks. You give individuals those same breaks and let HI operate like car and life insurance and you will see the price fall and quality go even higher.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:25 am

#28 PLJ Says: If Obama and company do only ONE thing during their administration it must be to save the American auto companies. This MUST be job one.
————————————————————————————–
Note that this is a very unpopular view in the general public.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/03/17/business/econwatch/entry4871335.shtml
Americans have little sympathy for U.S. automakers facing financial difficulties. Just 18 percent think the government should provide them with additional financial assistance, and 76 percent think the government should not.

Good thing Obama doesn’t always go by the polls…

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Ray Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:28 am

Dave # 29 When you make your comparison …. the differnce of 130 Gallons @ say $ 5.00 per gallon is $650.00 per year more..

Compare $ 40,000 to say $28,000 for a well dressed 2010 Prius…. it is not justifialbe to get a Volt…

Don’t get me wrong, I want a Volt but, with the driving I do… I cannot justifiy an extra $ 12,000 in intial cost to get an average of 20 MPG less..
Under a normal driving scenario.

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Adrian Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:28 am

The problem is governement is so screwed up with this mostly socialist, partly free market attitude they have. You are asking fools and loyalists to lobbists to ask on the good of the people. Thomas Jefferson and the other founders were right to try to limit the expansion of government into our lives. What a mess.

I hope GM pulls a Ford and asks for no more money. We can figure this out on our own.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:29 am

#27 Ray said:

Take a look at allcarselectric.com.. The review for 2010 Prius is there.. They are getting 70 MPG.. Cost of the car starts @ $ 23,500 base price….. If you are like me and looking at fuel efficiency…. and car pricing….. a $40,000 Volt (with an average of 50 MPG for someone like me ) is not going to do it.
=============================

Not really commenting on the article itself or your sentiment about the difference in price/value compared to the Volt, but the $23,500 from Lyle’s sister site is a total WAG. It is probably pretty close…but who knows.

It has a lot to do with the value of the yen to the USD right now…and more importantly where that relationship is headed…the fact that the USD Index is falling off a cliff at the moment is significant. The US printing money, coupled with a perceived stability is really having a impact over the past 3-4 weeks.

http://www.fxstreet.com/rates-charts/usdollar-index/

/I would not want to be the guy in charge of US pricing for a Japanese company right now

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Jim I Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:36 am

The other problem is that even though we are angry, and send e-mails to our representatives and senators, it makes no difference. Our elected officials are on a drunken spending binge, and use the “anti-Bush at all costs” reasoning to justify it.

The old pork barrel has become very large, they know it, and with no one being held responsible, they could care less.

Our Constitution is simply being trampled to death………..

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:37 am

#33 Ray Says: Compare $ 40,000 to say $28,000 for a well dressed 2010 Prius…. it is not justifialbe to get a Volt…
————————————————————————————–
GM VP John Lauckner indicated he expects the Volt to cost in the mid 30s:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/17/car-and-driver-on-the-volt-tens-of-thousands-in-first-year-generation-two-after-5-years/
and the governement is issuing a $7500 tax credit,

So the Volt will cost around $29,000 after tax credits.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:42 am

#33 Ray said:

Dave # 29 When you make your comparison …. the differnce o 130 Gallons @ say $ 5.00 per gallon is $650.00 per year more..

Compare $ 40,000 to say $28,000 for a well dressed 2010 Prius…. it is not justifialbe to get a Volt…

Don’t get me wrong, I want a Volt but, with the driving I do… I cannot justifiy an extra $ 12,000 in intial cost to get an average of 20 MPG less..
Under a normal driving scenario.
========================
You have a valid point…but for later down the road. I don’t think the “is this economically logical” is going to go into a lot of decision making of buyers for the first 2-3 years of sales for the Volt.

There is always a initial rush of demand for a vehicle like this (or the Camaro for example)…and generally a company fills that need pretty quickly by spitting out a fafillion copies of the car they have orders for.

However, in this case, I expect GM will not have the ability to fufill demand for several years of production (if they come close to their deadlines…which granted is a big if) One could also argue it is a halo car, and they have no intention of mass producing this version/generation of the platform so they really don’t care (ala the failed Lutzian Solstice/Sky program)

For example, I want a electric car. I’m paying for the tech, I’m paying to make a statement away from gas, I’m paying the premium to support whoever brings it to market. (And I’m paying for something that is just plain cool…at least to me…electric cars are cool).

I know the Volt makes no sense from a wallet standpoint….but if they get to market first, they have my $40k. I’ll be ‘choosier’ on my second electric car, when hopefully regular market dynamics take over.

/I think there is probably 50 thousand people just like me, which is good for GM…if they can get it done

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SteveK Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:43 am

People love to hate themselves. Why else would working stiffs vote Republican for decades?

#32Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:25 am
#28 PLJ Says: If Obama and company do only ONE thing during their administration it must be to save the American auto companies. This MUST be job one.
————————————————————————————–
Note that this is a very unpopular view in the general public.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/03/17/business/econwatch/entry4871335.shtml
Americans have little sympathy for U.S. automakers facing financial difficulties. Just 18 percent think the government should provide them with additional financial assistance, and 76 percent think the government should not.
Good thing Obama doesn’t always go by the polls…

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jeff j Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:44 am

The south normally weathers economic down turns pretty good , we use to say we were recession proof , Not any more !! I meet with over 100 business men every month and the mood and feedback is pretty grave . We are not happy and not laughing at this bail out madness . We have a Government that passes a 800 billion dollars bail out bill that No body even gets to read. We and they have No clue were the money is going and then we find out that a large amount has been wasted our elected officials Cry out Fake outrage , and to make matters worse they throw the constitution out the window and pass a 90% target Tax (totally illegal by the way) . I hope all you college kids are getting the change you hoped for and good luck finding a job . Yes 46% of us care.

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unni Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:46 am

Yet another volt competitor : Its a Bus : The bus is a series hybrid: a diesel generator charges a battery, which in turn supplies electricity for two motors, one in each rear wheel. Thanks largely to its in-wheel motors, the bus can travel twice as far as a conventional bus on a liter of diesel, says Arend Heinen, who is both an engineer and spokesperson for the company. That translates into a reduction in fuel consumption of 50 percent.

link :http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22328/

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Jim I Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:50 am

Ray #27:

The Volt is not the car for everyone, anymore than the Prius, or Smart Car, or ev iMiev, or the Rio, etc., etc., etc.

It will all depend upon the driving you have to do. For many of us, the Volt will reduce our gasoline consumption over 90%. With a few small changes to my driving patterns, I could get that to over 95%.

And I hope my next comment will not fire up john1701a, but the Prius will end up costing you closer to $30K, than $23K, unless you like driving a base model. Until we actually see the offical Volt pricing for the base unit and options, it is a bit silly to try to compare pricing now…..

JMHO

And as much as I hate to agree with statik, he is right about the fact the the first two or three years of Volt sales will be to people that just want to be “cool”, and have the latest ang greatest gadget, that also appeals to the green crowd. I am will to spend $40K to have an electric car………

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Van Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:54 am

Quote: ““It’s like a Rubik’s cube, trying to untwist it and trying to get all the colors to line up,” he said.”

This illustration reveals far more than intended. If you do not know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you twist and twist and get some colors to line up, but when you twist again, you undo what you thought you had accomplished. You can spend hours or days twisting until you put it back in the drawer. On the other hand, if you know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you spin and twist for less than 5 minutes, and voila, the problem is solved.

Question how do you force, for they are clearly unwilling, the UAW and bondholders to agree with a viable plan short of using the power of a bankruptcy ruling? The answer my friends is twisting in the wind.

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Ray Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:57 am

You also have take into account that the $7500 rebate is not applicable in Canada… and the Prius would be closer to $30,000 Canadian…I believe the Canadian rebate on a Prius is only $ 2000 (if that is still in effect) A Prius, Ford Fusion Hybrid, Honda Civic Hybrid or the Honda Fit Hybrid will all be priced less than a Volt and … for the interm… till Gen 2 Volts get to my Central Alberta Canada location…. It may be the way to go.

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nasaman Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:58 am

Regarding giving aid to GM & Chrysler, I want to again propose (as Lyle & I jointly proposed a few months ago here) that the US Govt (through the DOD & GSA) should begin purchasing large numbers of E-REV vehicles to replace its huge fleets of vehicles needed for both war-related and domestic transportation.

Government development & manufacturing contracts to replace the vast numbers of vehicles operated by the Post Office & numerous other government agencies including the Pentagon with vehicles employing E-REV drive trains would go well beyond simply providing loans. In my opinion, such new vehicle procurements would be far more substantive than simply “aid” or “bailouts” in that GM & Chrysler (and perhaps Ford) would be developing vehicles needed by the government while benefiting from the funding provided by those contracts.

In addition, the Obama administration would be fulfilling its goal of procurring plug-in vehicles for government use and at the same time blazing the trail leading to E-REV vehicle development for the commercial marketplace.

I see government vehicle procurement as an all-around WIN-WIN approach to aiding the US auto industry!

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GM owes Obama Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:58 am

It’s clear that GM only exists because of President Obama.

In recognition of Obama being the savior of GM, I propose an official name change. From this moment forward GM will become OM, that’s Obama Motors.

Without Obama this failed corp would have been out of business a long time ago.

Face it, the vast majority of Americans want ALL bailouts to STOP. If the people had a chance to vote this bailout would never ever happen !

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mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:59 am

#33 Ray.

Your use of logic tells me you apply it selectively..(and probably have a CR type bias for T and agains GM)

So by your logic, a prius is not justifiable either…you can get a Chevy AVEO5 for about 13,000.

That is 15,000 less than your Prius or about 3000 gallons of gas @ $5.00, or about 10 – 15 YEARS worth…(based on Daves chart)

Its not about logic..

If you drive less than 40 miles then you use NO gas, and your mileage #s are wrong as the volt is expected to get somewhere around a 150 MPG rating..not that that is a fair comparison.. because if you use NO gas, your MPG is essentintially infinity…and infinity is a LOT more than 70 ( I mean if you think that the difference between a hummer and a prius is big..thats like tossing a brick into the grand canyon when compared to infity….lol

In my case where I have a 0 grid bill (net metereing on site generation), my Volt costs are the car only as I will use for work commute (and I can recharge on site (is about 48 miles round trip))

if you’re gonna use logic for your purchases, apply it equally, and your better off getting a bike and a rain coat, renting a dive near the office. Not a nice house in the burbs and ANY car,

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:00 am

#38 statik Says: I don’t think the “is this economically logical” is going to go into a lot of decision making of buyers for the first 2-3 years of sales for the Volt.
————————————————————————————–
Right. People that are economically logical will buy a Corolla for $15,350.

So anyone looking at the Volt is willing to spend more because it uses less gas. But its hard to deny that the Prius has green credibility, so that will be the Volt’s main competition in the market initially.

If GM prices the Volt in the mid-30’s like Lauckner says, and with the $7500 tax credit, the Volt should do well against the Prius, especially considering Prius tax credits expired years ago.

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Tom H Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#27 Ray

Take a look at allcarselectric.com.. The review for 2010 Prius is there.. They are getting 70 MPG..
——————————————————————————-
So many times I see statments on this board making claims that, if true, would indicate our energy problems are solved. We have seen $1/gallon ethanol, $1/w solar panels, and now a 70MPG hybrid. When you go to check this out, to solution is never available. You cannot buy ethanol at $1 gallon, the company that knows how to make $1 soar panels is not taking any orders.

I checked out the 70MPG. It was acheived driving a steady 30 mph on a test track. In other words, the real world figures we see for the Prius of 40-45 mpg are correct, if you actually want to use the car for transportation.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#46 GM owes Obama Says: In recognition of Obama being the savior of GM, I propose an official name change. From this moment forward GM will become OM, that’s Obama Motors.
————————————————————————————–
Sounds good to me!

But let’s not forget that it was Bush who first used the TARP funds to bailout GM, so how about Bush Obama Motors (BOM)

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RB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#26 Dave G quotes and responds
#21 RB Says: …the best people in most fields of endeavor — from athletics to computer programming — have about 10,000 hours of experience in that field. Many, many many hours of experience of dealing with individual situations are a part of the background that allows one to learn the multitude of special cases and exceptions that one has to take into account to really know what to do.
————————————————————————————–
OK, so take two computer programmers with 10,000 hours of experience each, and ask them how to solve an unusual computing problem. You’re likely to get 2 very different answers.
Everyone’s experience is a little different. To get the best ideas, it usually takes a group of experts with slightly different backgrounds.
=========================================

You make an interesting point. I agree that the two “experts” (who I’ll call A and B) will provide different solutions (different programs). Suppose there is now a 3rd programmer asked (C) who is a smart person but one who has only 300 hours of programming experience (30 days, 10 hours a day). That is, he’s a smart freshman. How will the solutions of A, B, and C be different?

Most likely the solutions of A and B both will work well, though one will have some good aspects missing from the other. The solution provided by C will most likely be incomplete and not work, even though it may have some good ideas in it.

We all love movies where the teenage boy (and his girlfriend) find themselves in a strange laboratory where they brilliantly find “the solution” that has eluded all the “experts,” who often are portrayed as spacey guys wearing bow ties and doing a lot of bouncing up and down, or else are pompous idiots. It makes a good movie, and I like them too

But in dull reality the people who make things work know a lot about what they are working on, both through training and from experience. It does not mean that “experts” should decide what happens with the auto industry without looking at the big picture or for new ideas. Still, good will and some introductory explanations from auto dealers is very little in relation to the assigned task.

Even so, I hope the consequence is a well designed and produced Volt, and at the very least a few hundred of them for the good people in DC and CA..

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:06 am

#47 mitch said:

….if you’re gonna use logic for your purchases, apply it equally, and your better off getting a bike and a rain coat, renting a dive near the office. Not a nice house in the burbs and ANY car
==========================

Isn’t this always the end game of these discussion of ‘what makes more sense’?

Truthfully, ‘no cars at all’ is the logical end-game/conclusion to all of this, but that is for ‘future world’…hundreds of years from now.

/feel free to bookmark this and prove me wrong in the year 2,509

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Tom H Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am

If you drive less than 40 miles then you use NO gas, and your mileage #s are wrong as the volt is expected to get somewhere around a 150 MPG rating..not that that is a fair comparison.. because if you use NO gas, your MPG is essentintially infinity…and infinity is a LOT more than 70 ( I mean if you think that the difference between a hummer and a prius is big..thats like tossing a brick into the grand canyon when compared to infity….lol

——————————————————————————–
You are letting yourself get confused by the concept of infinity. If I am spending $3,000 per year on gas, and buy a Volt, I do not save an infinite amount of money, I save a little less than $3,000, depending on my driving habits.

If I have to spend $15,000 extra on the purchase price, it takes me over 5 years to break even. This is an investment which few financiers or few consumers would be interested in.

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Schmeltz Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:10 am

I am disappointed to read that the Auto task force is seemingly kicking the ball down the field a little farther again, and again. The sooner they stand firm, and actually deal with the inherent financial problems of these companies, the sooner a “real” recovery can occur. It is downright scary to hear comments like,

“So we’ve learned a lot about how car dealers work, and how companies get paid when they sell a car to a dealer, and why there are a certain number of dealers more than are optimal. Have we learned everything? Of course not….”

Huh???? You gotta be doggone kidding me!!! Seriously. These guys are just NOW understanding how a car company works, and were put in charge of the collective fates of hundreds of thousands of people and billions of taxpayers dollars??? So in failing to grasp the myriad of complexities of this industry, they will simply roll-over and throw more money at these problems because that is the fashion these days. I want to be clear…I want GM to survive and live on to build the Volt, but I also want it to be a lean, mean, healthy, profit making machine capable of meeting or beating the best auto companies of the world product for product. It seems feeding them a couple of billion every month or two is taking the cowards way out–plain and simple.

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mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:16 am

#52 Statik…

Lol..ok…but I used a post it note as by the year 2509, I think the link may not be good. (lyle? with the site still be up in 500 years? maybe as GM -transporterroom.com?)

I printed the thread tho, and put next to my stash of longevity potion..

In all honesty, as you pointed out..costs is NOT a factor for the first few years…and logiuc is NEVER why some buy cars..otherwise why are there Lamborghini’s? Lotus’ Ferrari’s (It can’t only be for Top Gear to blow up can it?)…

its just that when someone uses logic selectively like that to deride a single point (which I will point out is a SPECULATIVE point as no one KNOWS the final Volt pricing) it is utter rubbish! If that is your methodology, then :

1- get a bike
2- Get a rain coat
3- rent a cheap dive close to your work
4- move to a lower cost of living (Ray says Alberta..very exensive..try Windsor Ont where you can get a home for 35k)
5- shop at value village or other charitable resale stores, NEVER buy new..

Logic is no way to live Mr. Data…lol

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mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:17 am

#53 Tom H

If you re read, I am comaring MPG, not money saved

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:19 am

#49 Tom H Says: So many times I see statements on this board making claims that, if true, would indicate our energy problems are solved. We have seen $1/gallon ethanol, $1/w solar panels, and now a 70MPG hybrid.
————————————————————————————–
Right. There are always gotchas. With $1/gallon ethanol, that’s the best case cost of production, not the retail price. With $1/w solar panels, they don’t mention that they are not that efficient, so you need a lot more land area. With the 70MPG Prius, they don’t mention that it was a hypermiling contest, so it doesn’t represent anything close to typical driving.

But the fact that we are seeing numbers like this means that progress is being made.

It’s also worth pointing out that even if all 3 of these were true mass produced typical retail numbers, we would still have energy problems. Any viable solution for energy will have to include all of these, and much more.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:29 am

#51 RB Says: I agree that the two “experts” (who I’ll call A and B) will provide different solutions (different programs). Suppose there is now a 3rd programmer asked (C) who is a smart person but one who has only 300 hours of programming experience (30 days, 10 hours a day). That is, he’s a smart freshman. How will the solutions of A, B, and C be different?
————————————————————————————–
Right, but in reality, C is not really a programmer, but more like a manager that just has to decide which programmer’s method (A, B, or a mixture of both) is best. C doesn’t have to write the program, he just has to write a detailed description of the program works, laying out the basic methods and constraints.

Let’s be clear, this auto task-force doesn’t want to run a car company. They just want to come up with a formula to make them viable.

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James Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:30 am

The more bailout money GM gets, the less people will buy their cars. Do they not see this side of the equation? They are worried that people won’t buy cars from a bankrupt company, but they are probably just as many that won’t buy from a bailed out company.

I am done supporting companies that get my tax money. It has to stop sometime. Enjoy your Volts guys.

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mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:31 am

#53
#56 continued.. (missed edit time as a call came in)

To use infinity your way..If you spend 3k on gas, and I spend 0, then I have saved infinitely more money than you,(3000 / 0) but not an infinite amount of money..it is possible to have infinity between to fixed points of reference… (there are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1)

(BTW I do understand infinity quite well..check the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy for a better definition lol)

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Gary Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:32 am

What I don’t understand is how the Detroit 3 can continue to operate long term with so many legacy costs. Any long-established company in the U.S. that can’t rely its home country’s government to provide healthcare or a decent pension would be in trouble right now. I read somewhere a few days ago (don’t know where, and it could be untrue like a lot of stuff in the “news”) that for every one active GM employee, he/she is supporting 3 retired ones.

As much as people are criticizing GM for bad management, poor planning, blah, blah, I can’t help but to think about the population situation in Canada where I live. It’s heading the same way as GM’s employee demographic… our population is aging because our immigration and birthrate is too low. I’m in my mid-30s and I’ve been told years back that I won’t have a government pension plan because all the retiring baby boomers are going to suck the pension and healthcare system dry. That’s why I’m saving my money on my ownnow, because I’d rather be in charge of my own destiny, rather than giving all my savings to a pension entity where I don’t know if it will be around in 30 years.

Anyways, am I supposed to criticize my Canadian government like the general populace is criticizing GM?

Statik, your thoughts? You’re Canadian. You must have a thought about this.

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noel park Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:32 am

#7 NZDavid & #17 statik:

Don’t get too comfortable. When we go over the cliff, you’re coming with us. As witness the present worldwide unpleasantness, which many say came directly from the collapse of the “Wall Street” derivative, “CDO”, “credit default swap”, sub-prime mortgage, speculative binge, house of cards, collapse. It is arguably dragging down the whole world. I think it’s called “globalization”.

BTW, did anyone hear the commentary on NPR this morning about the Chinese government subsidizing rural people to buy cars, appliances, and other consumer goods to make up for the loss of exports to the US, et al?

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Cautious Fan Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:39 am

Great Wall Street Journal article the gov’t effort.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123801450038141147.html

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MarkinWI Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:39 am

RB@#11 – Oh I agree. We are beyond his worst case scenario. Auto sales have collapsed further than GM was willing to utter. We’re feeding money into GM like blood into a patient, without applying a tournaquet. If the government hands out more money without fixing the bondholders and retiree health care (and probably 6 other things that I’m not aware of) then that would be wasted money. Agreed.

But if I seem unconcerned it is probably because the money involved is so small compared to what we have already spent on the banks. Even the ARRA that some here decry is a “mere” $800+ billion (much of it for tangible assets, much of it for tax cuts for 90% of Americans), or less 1/10th of what we have have spent on the banks. Bush dumped about $8 trillion through the fed, and now Geithner announces this week another $1 trillion under Obama. It’s not that I’m not paying attention, it’s that I’m also paying attention to the context.

Put in context, spending $40 billion to shore up a large number of jobs (at least temporarily) while we are near the bottom of what is the worst economic debacle since the Great Depression by most measures (and arguably by every measure) does not seem too high a price to pay. I don’t really think that the Obama administration is going to either try to run GM, or to save it for the long-term. I think that the goal is to make sure that it does not collapse in the short-term.

GM is going to have to use that window to make sure that it survives beyond the next 12 months. GM is going to have to be responsible for GM. To me the expectation of expertise regarding the auto business (or mockery of the lack thereof) on the part of politicians is a mirage, a mere diversion to the real dance that is going on. I understand where Statiks coming from, he understands individual companies and the exchange markets very well. I just don’t think he’s looking at what the goals of the Administation are, and so he can see no logic to what they are doing.

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kent beuchert Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am

Big surpirse. UAW contributes tens of millions to the Democrats during the election and the Dem Pres decides to fund the union’s greed by wasting taxpayer money – money that can never be repaid.
Big surprise. My head is reeling.

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mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:50 am

#65 Kent

The UAW is in the Banking field???

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Bryan Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:50 am

Nice to know the task force is being led by someone who is still learning how the automobile industry works. It’s also good to know that the bailout now has a firm deadline like the one before it and the one before that.

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am

#56 mitch Says: If you re read, I am comparing MPG, not money saved
————————————————————————————–
With plug-ins, I’ve found that comparing MPG is a tough sell. No matter what number you come up with for the MPG of a plug-in, people will bash and dis-believe it.

But if you compare Gallons-Per-Year, that’s a lot more straightforward, and is actually more realistic for gas savings.

I think the EPA should come up with a typical yearly driving pattern, then calculate Gallons-Per-Year (GPY), and add that to the sticker as the main efficiency rating for comparison. This really helps to bring the point home, making it easy to figure yearly gas expenses for a typical driver. Also, I believe GPY will help promote more personal responsibility for oil consumption when people actually compare the number of gallons they can save annually.

In addition, with a typical driving pattern, the difference between 20MPG and 30MPG is 190 gallons per year, but the difference between 50MPG and 60MPG is only 38 gallons per year. So high MPG numbers can be a bit misleading. They aren’t as meaningful as they sound.

So let’s forget MPG and move to GPY.

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noel park Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:56 am

#50 Dave G:

THANK YOU!

Having said that, it is pretty clear that this “business model” is unsustainable. Unless some really radical restructuring happens, sooner rather than later, GM will burn through this $16.4 Billion and be back to the well long before any of us ever get a Volt.

Clearly, as this auto industry, “Wall Street”, et al, bloodletting goes on and on, public resistance is going to rise. I’m as much of a GM and Volt enthusiast as anyone here, but even I can run out of patience.

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D. Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:57 am

Dave G # 57, , It turns out “Nanosolar’s solar cells have been verified by NREL to be as efficient as 14.6% in 2006″ Pretty good!

wikipedia, nanosolar

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PLJ Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am

Remember the old saw “AS GM GOES SO GOES THE NATION”.

In this time of economic crisis, I believe EVERY American should support GM.

And here is one very good reason:

http://www.freep.com/article/20090320/BUSINESS06/903200331/1019/BUSINESS/Buick+tops+Lexus+in+dependability+ratings

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jacko Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am

#59 James

I couldn’t agree more James. It’s infuriating that I’m being forced against my will to support GM, a for profit company. Since I still have a choice in what brand I buy, you can bet I’ll start with Ford and then the foreign makes. Though I suspect I’m a minority, and that’s OK. Just doing my part to make the world a better place.

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jacko Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:03 am

Since we’ve made bad investments in the banking sector, I guess that justified making bad investments in automotive as well. 2 wrongs, when done by our gov’t, can make a right.

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PLJ Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:06 am

And to all you foolish, uninformed people who won’t buy a car from a company that gets government handouts, please read the following link to learn what is really going on in this world:

http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:07 am

#60 Mitch said:

…BTW I do understand infinity quite well..check the hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy for a better definition lol
====================
oooh, oooh, I know…pick me!

Infinity is:
“Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some, much bigger than that, in fact really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, real ‘Wow, that’s big!’ time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the s…”

And more importantly, “What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything?”

/42

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am

@kent beuchert 65
“Big surpirse. UAW contributes tens of millions to the Democrats during the election and the Dem Pres decides to fund the union’s greed by wasting taxpayer money – money that can never be repaid.”

That’s funny. Tha’t always playing in the back of my head….

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BDP Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:16 am

Why don’t politicians understand that bankruptcy ultimately means success. Success for the people and businesses who come along afterwards, pick up the pieces and make a profit. (Thus creating jobs) Government/ politicians criticize outrageous spending and mismanagement and then do just that, spend and mismanage. All in the name of saving our economy and jobs that we can’t afford to lose. Guess what, nothing on earth screws things up better than government regulation. Read a little history. My hope certainly doesn’t lye in the man thinking he can “change” thing for the better. I’ll keep my hope in The Man.

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The Grump Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:16 am

#50 Dave G says “But let’s not forget that it was Bush who first used the TARP funds to bailout GM, so how about Bush Obama Motors (BOM)”
—————————-
BOM sounds too much like what GM’s sales have done over the past year – not a good acronym to use.

How about Obama Motor Group (OMG)

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The Grump Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:22 am

#31 Adrain “and their health care sucks compared to ours as over priced and broken as the USA has it!”
—————————————-
Huh? Can someone translate this – I forgot where i left my “Raving Lunatic to English” dictionary. Thanks !

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:24 am

#61 Gary said:

As much as people are criticizing GM for bad management, poor planning, blah, blah, I can’t help but to think about the population situation in Canada where I live. It’s heading the same way as GM’s employee demographic… our population is aging because our immigration and birthrate is too low. I’m in my mid-30s and I’ve been told years back that I won’t have a government pension plan because all the retiring baby boomers are going to suck the pension and healthcare system dry. That’s why I’m saving my money on my ownnow, because I’d rather be in charge of my own destiny, rather than giving all my savings to a pension entity where I don’t know if it will be around in 30 years.

Anyways, am I supposed to criticize my Canadian government like the general populace is criticizing GM?

Statik, your thoughts? You’re Canadian. You must have a thought about this.

====================================
It is great you are saving your own money (everybody should be putting away something).

However, the CPP (Canada’s Pension Plan) has not been in ‘trouble’ for a very long time. It currently pays retirement pensions (with inflation-protection factored in) benefits at a level, which as of the last report I seen from independant auditors, that had CPP funded/solvent for at the next 70 years.

Same deal for EI…it is currently way overfunded. So much so, the premiums have been dropping like a stone the last decade, both on the employee’s portion and for guys like me who have to pay our half of the bill for employees.

The gov’t took some pretty drastic steps to shore it up the 15 years or so…basically upping the CPP contribution, while the EI dropped.

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am

35 Statik
/I would not want to be the guy in charge of US pricing for a Japanese company right now
==================
We give our pricing in Yen usually, if the equipment is coming from Japan. If we give it in dollars, theres always a price good till some date in there.

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J. Muchagrove Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:29 am

No GM = No Volt

And as for those who say a Prius makes economic sense, you are still thinking short term. A Prius still makes countries that hate us rich. We need to reduce our oil consumption footprint to that which we can obtain domestically, from friendly countries such as Canada, and fron our own bio-resources.

I’m willing to trade the short term pain (higher costs and longer ‘payback’ for a Volt) to achieve that goal.

The ‘true’ cost of a gallon of gas is a lot higher than the pump price.

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:34 am

43 Van
If you do not know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you twist and twist and get some colors to line up, but when you twist again, you undo what you thought you had accomplished. You can spend hours or days twisting until you put it back in the drawer. On the other hand, if you know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you spin and twist for less than 5 minutes, and voila, the problem is solved.
===========

I would always take it apart and then rebuild the cube. Wait a minute.. did i just say i’m for bankrupcy?

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

#46 GM owes Obama = voltfail = charlieh

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Tex-Arl Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:47 am

After todays post, all we will see and read is the doom and gloom. Maybe tomorrow the sun will shine.

Anyway, by the end of the day we will be back to “What is GA ?”. It means
(Prototype) General Assembly.

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Joe Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:48 am

I don’t understand how anyone can say the employees did not give enough concessions. Let me try and sum up some of the concessions. White collars lost their health insurances, the blue collar insurance is lousier than the average insurance, the jobs bank is gone, the new workers wages have been cut in half and no pensions for them, no more cost of living allowance, no more moving allowance, and the list goes on and on.

The Canadians have not given nearly as much concessions as the Americans auto workers.

If you think that’s not enough, let your employer do the same to you and seee how you feel about it!

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D. Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:48 am

re Canadian healthcare- I’m not hearing any complaints coming from canadians, Is it fair to say “government supplied healthcare,”"single-payer” works?? Static(let’s not skirt the issue), Gary, other Canadians, care to weigh in. Are you dissatisfied with cost, quality? WTO numbers suggest you’ve got a good thing going. thanks

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Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:49 am

#83 k-dawg Says: I would always take it apart and then rebuild the cube. Wait a minute.. did i just say i’m for bankrupcy?
————————————————————————————–
I just peel off the stickers and put them on the right way. Taking apart the cube is pretty difficult – easy to break.

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Keith Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:50 am

I have a question , What if GM, Ford and Chrysler shut down ?
The USA and Canada goes to war against a third country .
Who do we buy our military vehicles from , Honda or Toyota .
What if that country is Japan ?

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CuriousLuke Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:52 am

“The biggest variable the team has had to wrestle with,” he says, is “what the demand for cars will be in five years.”

As a DIY’er with some experience tinkering and maintaining cars, I can say with some certainty that if my choices in 5 years are like what I could buy today, I probably won’t be buying anything in 5 years. In short, the frame on my old compact pickup hasn’t rusted out yet — and buying a new nearly-identical truck just seems like paying $20k for something that I already own — and I’ve kept worse vehicles running. Same for the Prius — just so as long as that voodoo transmission and the associated electronics hold out, there’s no reason to buy anything. I guess that could change if the town gives us a citation us for having an eyesore in our driveway — but that’s about what it’ll take to get me to open my wallet.

But, I’ll buy an electric Volt, Ford Focus EV Wagon, or similar machine as soon as I get the chance.

No Plug, No Sale.

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Maynard Keenan Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:52 am

Excuse me – can anybody explain to me exactly how they justify to spend billions of tax dollars? I can see no argumentation there.

“Rather they are expected to say they see viable futures for the companies, but only if management, union, and bondholders make sacrifices.” I hope they will be more precisely in their final report.

Or is it their lack of understanding of the processes, their incompetence, that justifies the decision? Better not make a mistake and keep it alive? Pretty poor…

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:53 am

The Governator wants to return his Tesla Roadster….

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/26/schwarzenegger-reportedly-trying-to-return-his-tesla-roadster/

He indicates it’s too difficult for his large body to get in/out of. Isn’t that what Lyle said aout the car? A perfect example on how a certain car is not for “EVERYONE”.
Autoblogg speculates he low on fund$, he should make Maria drive it or give it to me.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am

Dangit…
.Getting moderated again…..
Arrrrghhh…..

(Quote)
Tim Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:54 am

I’m seeing Obama’s “change” and I have the audacity to “hope” that the coming TAX REVOLT will be peaceful. As the world transitions away from the collapsing fiat US $Dollar as reserve currency, the resulting hyperflation will also create social instability.

The US Federal obligations now exceeds world GDP
Does $65.5 trillion terrify anyone yet?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88851

Somebody (taxpayer) has to pay the tab with devalued currency (inflation) and/or much higher taxes and only a complete statist moron (or corrupt politician) would believe that the US richest 5% could make a dent even at a 100% tax rate. Can you say bread @ $20.00/loaf and income taxes at 80%? It’s going to get ugly, but GM will make a few Volts so who cares, right comrades? Let’s print some more fiat currency out of thin air for Big Auto!

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Jacko Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am

#71 PLS

As GM goes so goes the nation
_____________________________________

Didn’t a lobbyist for GM coin that phrase? I bet Microsoft, Cisco, GE, Caterpiller, Ford, Boeing, Wal-Mart, or the millions of small businesses might take exception with the exclusivity.

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Jacko Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am

Just……need…….to…….dig……a…….little……..more. Almost…….there.

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

#91 Maynard Keenan Says:
Excuse me – can anybody explain to me exactly how they justify to spend billions of tax dollars? I can see no argumentation there.
=========

3.5 million jobs (this # is debateable.. but i dont care to)

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Van Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

Off Topic

Fisker Motors has named the location of its first 32 dealers, for its $70,000 plus ER-EV. The locations may provide insight into where we can expect the Volt to be sold during 2011.

7 Dealers in California
4 Dealers in Florida
3 Dealers in NY
3 Dealers in Texas
2 Dealers in Illinois

The rest of the states either go one or no dealerships. Food for thought. Being located in Orange County, I will have at least 2 Fisker dealers within 60 miles.

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

#43 Van said:
If you do not know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you twist and twist and get some colors to line up, but when you twist again, you undo what you thought you had accomplished. You can spend hours or days twisting until you put it back in the drawer. On the other hand, if you know how to solve the Rubik’s cube, you spin and twist for less than 5 minutes, and voila, the problem is solved.
——————–

#83 k-dawg said:
I would always take it apart and then rebuild the cube. Wait a minute.. did i just say i’m for bankrupcy?
================================
Circa Grade 4: I just peeled the stickers off and re-stuck them, then pretended to be a genius…took 30 seconds tops.

/image over reality right?

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

#88 DaveG said:

I just peel off the stickers and put them on the right way. Taking apart the cube is pretty difficult – easy to break

#98 Statik said:

Circa Grade 4: I just peeled the stickers off and re-stuck them, then pretended to be a genius…took 30 seconds tops.
========================

Gah!

Wow, scary…you and me posting the same thing at the same time.

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frankyB Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

Gary Says:
……. I’m in my mid-30s and I’ve been told years back that I won’t have a government pension plan because all the retiring baby boomers are going to suck the pension and healthcare system dry…….

Anyways, am I supposed to criticize my Canadian government like the general populace is criticizing GM?

Statik, your thoughts? You’re Canadian. You must have a thought about this.
=======================================

If I may, different topic but I’ll try to bridge back to this one. I’m Canadian too, as a country we made choices that comes with good and bad side. I prefer to look at the good, we have a country that give access to healthcare to anyone old, young, poor or rich, it has a cost, a cost I don’t mind paying for, because one day I may need it. In that process, is there money that get miss managed, yes. But its the end results that matters. As of for your retirement, yes you should put money on the side, the system in place is to help retires without any plans to have decent living and it will still be the case when you get there, if you didn’t create your own nest, then don’t expect to keep the same level of living. I hate “cry babies”.

The situation you try to link with GM is not the same thing at all, in fact if the US had the same system we have, GM wouldn’t have to support the healthcare cost of their retires. (see I was able to get back to the topic)

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k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:07 pm

RB & Dave G, not to get into your expert A, expert B, and joe the plumber C discussion, but I saw an interesting documentary on this idea. It basically said when the solution is unknown, a group of people will normally pick the correct answer vs. a subset. So factor in a neuroligist and a 15 year-old kid working at McDonald’s, and everyone else in between, plot their “answers” on a bell curve, and the average of the “answers” is usually the correct one. I dont know what this means (should we have a vote?), i just thought it was interesting.

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JEC Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

42.

Oh yes, GM the answer is at hand…Install Babel fish now, turn on your improbability drive (I think you can run it off those new fancy Li-Ion batteries you have laying around?)!

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Van Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

Question for Statik or Dave G, how many stickers did you have to peel off your task force Rubik’s cube before you revealed the UAW decal.

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D. Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:19 pm

captain jack- tough crowd.lol

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statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#93 TIm said:

I’m seeing Obama’s “change” and I have the audacity to “hope” that the coming TAX REVOLT will be peaceful. As the world transitions away from the collapsing fiat US $Dollar as reserve currency, the resulting hyperflation will also create social instability.

The US Federal obligations now exceeds world GDP
Does $65.5 trillion terrify anyone yet?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=88851

Somebody (taxpayer) has to pay the tab with devalued currency (inflation) and/or much higher taxes and only a complete statist moron (or corrupt politician) would believe that the US richest 5% could make a dent even at a 100% tax rate. Can you say bread @ $20.00/loaf and income taxes at 80%? It’s going to get ugly, but GM will make a few Volts so who cares, right comrades? Let’s print some more fiat currency out of thin air for Big Auto!
=================================

Well, I have a solution for 55 trillion of that or so…and it is free of charge. Stop carrying those free-loading old people, and every man for himself on healthcare. Huzzah!

Underfunded liabilities is a balace sheet sort of thing, so that doesn’t concern the wider financial markets nearly as much as the direct deficit…it becomes a problem when the future liability turns into a current reality. Then the administration is forced to actually move on it, which means raising the money/printing the money…or changing the benchmarks of payment.

There is a real fear about the USD dollar now and how it relates to other currencys and things like inflation. Ironically, when the world is in a big dizzy about collapse, the move is still into USD, but as it stabilizes you see the exodus away again (much like we saw in the USD Index move over the last 3 weeks as things were temporarily looking up).

I think it is hard for anyone to see how the next couple years goes, or what the situation will be over the next decade or two…you can be sure there will be consequences of some sort, certainly the standard of living will be taking a pretty big hit. I’m smart enough (or dumb enough) to know that I don’t know.

Personally, to cover myself, I hold more than one currency (usually it is blended with foreign equities/securities, when I’m not in fear of the market…and a few ADRs that give me some representational balance with the currency of the company’s origin) and shuffle the ratios as they shift.

(Quote)
JEC Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:21 pm

No time to be experimenting on whether a person with no understanding of the subject matter, can somehow, solve GM’s mess.

Find the most experienced, level-headed guy or gal, who you trust, and let them drive the solution.

Design by committee, never works, unless you designate a leader, with the power to call the shots.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

Fisker although will have many CA sales floors is far too “Funacially Unfeasable”. No thanks.

If anyone is going to the NY Int Auto Show, get some info on the new car from “EV Innovations” aka “Hybrid Technologies” called the Wave. It is rumored to be only $34,900.00 for it but not mentioning the useless $7500 tax thingy. It’s reportedly able to hit a top speed of 80 mph with a range of 170 miles per charge.
Perfect for my 20 mile round trip commute. One charge per week +.

They’re retrofitters so I want to know what car they will be using.
Please be a small pickup truck…
Please be a small pickup truck…
Please be a small pickup truck…
Please be a small pickup truck…

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

#82 J. Muchagrove Says: We need to reduce our oil consumption footprint to that which we can obtain domestically, from friendly countries such as Canada…
————————————————————————————–
It doesn’t really matter what country we buy our oil from. It’s a world oil market. Think of the oil market as a swimming pool – producers pour oil in, consumers take oil out. We don’t import all or even most of our oil from the Persian Gulf today, yet the decisions of Persian Gulf oil suppliers have a profound impact on our economy.

So importing oil from anywhere helps those countries that export oil the most. These are:
Country ………………….. millions of barrels per day
Saudi Arabia …………….. 8.65
Russia ……………………. 6.57
Norway …………………… 2.54
Iran ……………………….. 2.52
United Arab Emirates ….. 2.52
Venezuela ………………. 2.2

(Quote)
mitch Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:51 pm

#75 Statik

“And more importantly, “What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything?”

/42″

True but you will need to wait 10 million years to find out (and once Earth 2 is up and running of course…

1. infinity
Bigger than the biggest thing ever and then some, much bigger than that, in fact really amazingly immense, a totally stunning size, real ‘Wow, thats big!’ time. Infinity is just so big that by comparison, bigness itself looks really titchy. Gigantic multiplied by colossal multiplied by staggeringly huge is the sort of concept we are trying to get across here.

You think its a long way to the corner drug store, but that is jsut peanuts compared to infinity….

Lol

(Quote)
Unni Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

Tesla Model S Photos leaked :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinrose/3387095971/in/set-72157615935626028/

(Quote)
Unni Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 12:54 pm

Tesla model S photos leaked

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevinrose/3387095971/in/set-72157615935626028/

looks good ( spam filter ate my previous post )

(Quote)
ccombs Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:00 pm

AHHHH!!! How about the gov’t pays GM upfront for a fleet of future Volts? Even that would be fishy, but better than this bailout nonsense. I want the Volt, but these loans had better be repaid!

And Chrysler… you had better be making *huge* changes, and producing those three EVs you showed us soon. Not that I expect that will ever happen…

(Quote)
DonC Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:02 pm

Too much criticism and not enough analysis. First of all, if restructuring was so easy it would have been done by now. Bloom and Rattner, two key members, have been on the job for thirty days or so. Expecting a plan in so short of time isn’t realistic, unless one would be happy with any plan.

Second, no one will make any concessions unless everyone makes concessions. That’s the way it works. Otherwise you’re simply negotiating with yourself. No one at the table is so stupid as to do that, so the fact that there has been no announced concessions by either the bondholders or the union is hardly surprising. It would be a shock if it were otherwise.

Third, for all those who think that bankruptcy is a positive solution, what do you think bankruptcy is? At heart it’s the insertion of another layer of government regulation. And if the task force members need more time than you think should be devoted to the thorny task of restructuring, how long do you think it would take the bankruptcy trustee — whose critical qualification may be that he/she was a law school classmate of the bankruptcy judge’s — to get up to speed.

Take a deep breath and relax. The economy seems to have hit bottom and is beginning to turn around. Energy and the electrification of transportation are important priorities. Maintaining an industrial base is an important priority. Ensuring that we don’t finance hostile regimes around the globe is a priority. Now is the time to address these issues, not to get exorcised about the details of a restructuring or an artificial time line. Those things will come soon enough.

The one thing I will say is that fussing about the auto run rate strikes me as a useless exercise. The fact is that the auto industry is so efficient it will always have chronic over capacity. You can’t “right size” it because with production being flexible and new entrants able to appear in the market the supply side can always grow faster than demand.

This is just me, and I have no research to back it up, but guess is that demand in the medium term will be highly influenced by new cars like the Volt. Just as new technology like CDs drove album sales (remember when there were albums?) as people wanted new technology, so EVs and E-REVs will drive car sales.

(Quote)
Shawn Marshall Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

http://www.nucleartourist.com/basics/reasons1.htm

Nuclear power for America – let’s not be fuelish.

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

#112 DonC,

Yes. Everything you say makes perfect sense.

(Quote)
CorvetteGuy Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

C’mon GM – - – It’s time to start the ad campaign!

“The All-New Chevrolet VOLT. It’s FAST. Relief for gas pains.”

“The All-New Chevy VOLT. If Ben Franklin only knew.”

“The All-New Chevy VOLT. Kiss your GAS goodbye.”

(just to get the ball rolling on this…)

(Quote)
k-dawg Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

New topic Lyle.. where’s that clock at now?

Unni – Flickr deleted your photos…

(Quote)
StevePA Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

#36 JimI
“Our Constitution is simply being trampled to death.”
____________________________________________________

If so, this would be the ninth year of that process…

(Quote)
David K (CT) Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

K-dawg @118.

New topic is there, Lyles ahead of you.

(Quote)
Gary Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 1:47 pm

80 Statik: However, the CPP (Canada’s Pension Plan) has not been in ‘trouble’ for a very long time. It currently pays retirement pensions (with inflation-protection factored in) benefits at a level, which as of the last report I seen from independant auditors, that had CPP funded/solvent for at the next 70 years.

You’re usually the pessimist. You sound like an optimist here. I’m being a pessimist since the job titles of financial advisor, banker, auditor, etc. have been dragged through the mud over the past year or so.

(Quote)
statik Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

#121 Gary said:

“Statik said:: However, the CPP (Canada’s Pension Plan) has not been in ‘trouble’ for a very long time. It currently pays retirement pensions (with inflation-protection factored in) benefits at a level, which as of the last report I seen from independant auditors, that had CPP funded/solvent for at the next 70 years.”

–You’re usually the pessimist. You sound like an optimist here. I’m being a pessimist since the job titles of financial advisor, banker, auditor, etc. have been dragged through the mud over the past year or so.
========================
Lol, I think it is a misconception that I’m a pessimist all the time, although I have admittedly just given up and embraced that label here (and the ‘glass half full guy’ one too).

I’m a realist at heart (I do confess to bouts of pessimism from time to time, hehe), but if something smells like poop…I say, “that is probably poop”. It just so happens that almost everything smells these days.

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noel park Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

#119 StevePA:

THANK YOU!

It is amazing to see the revisionist history start to take hold in a matter of days.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

More Tesla Model S pics (not deleted)

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/tesla-model-s-1/1454564/

I have to give it to Tesla, it’s a damn nice looking car.
Hats off…

(Quote)
noel park Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 2:51 pm

#90 CuriousLuke:

LOL. I keep my somewhat tired looking s-10 in the garge so the neighbor son’t have to look at it. 221,000 miles today. I’m gonna drive it until the wheels fall off. NPNS.

#108 CaptJackSparrow:

When we went to see the Volt in Santa Monica last fall, there was a display from an outfit in Arizona that retrofits brand new Colorados. It is called Electric Blue. The websites are electricblue.com and connect-tech.com. The e-mail of the very helpful guy I talked to is dustindonohue@connect-tech.com.

They also do Aveos and Yarises. He said that they would also do my existing S-10 for about $15K. He said that they have done a lot of S-10s. They are supposedly freeway legal, and have about a 60 mile range with lead-acid batteries.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 3:29 pm

This paradigm that people have that taxes that they pay are still somehow
**************
their
*************
money is ridiculous to me.
When I pay property taxes for the last 30 years in order to put everyone else’s kids through grade school and junior college, I do not go around saying that “my taxes” do this, that or the other.
Taxes are collected for the common good. Those monies are either used prudently by elected officials (with common sense for the common good, as in bringing forth green electric motoring for us all), or, taxes squandered by those elected officials too closely tied with an unearned heritage or influence of power and wealth. (Texas refuses $550 million dollars for Childrens Health programs because of “strings”.)
Federal Taxes YOU pay in Texas, for example, are not coming back to Texas because of a very pathetic lack of common sense and political conceitedness it seems to me.
*********
THAT
********
is what you should be outraged about. I certainly am, and have a perfect right to be.
But the funding to GM is extremely well tied to the public good of the entire globe. CO2 goes everywhere once released.
Believe me, as well, the situation regarding what excessively-high-overhead automotive repair facilities are going to do to your next significant auto repair bill is not going to be funny. The Volt
******************
DESERVES
******************
every red cent that the Obama team says it needs, and when it needs it.
Obama’s team is certainly working for your public good, as will be proven to everyone in just 18 more very quick months.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

(Quote)
Doof Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

#50 DaveG
Sounds good to me!

But let’s not forget that it was Bush who first used the TARP funds to bailout GM, so how about Bush Obama Motors (BOM)

_____________________________________________________

Hate to bring this one up, but with the name Bush Obama Motors (BOM). people could then call it the Bush Obama Motors Bailout or (BOMB). uggg, I already feel lame for posting this.

(Quote)
guyman Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 3:58 pm

# 89 – Keith Says:

I have a question , What if GM, Ford and Chrysler shut down ?
The USA and Canada goes to war against a third country .
Who do we buy our military vehicles from , Honda or Toyota .
What if that country is Japan ?
========================

Oh come on..- This is a stretch, even using one’s imagination. Three reasons the “save them for national security interests” doesn’t fly with me…

1) With the advent of nukes, we’re not really likely to get into an all out war (we haven’t for 60 years or so) – The need for an “all out” effort to produce war materials seems remote – Things would likely escalate to a tactical nuclear exchange (and potentially worse than that) before we had a physical invasion of the US – Much more likely to be involved in regional issues, ala Iraq, etc – And there are plenty of folks building the weapons systems needed today..

2) Making mine resistant vechiles, tanks powered by turbines, etc is a little bit different from making an Escalade – Other than cranking out alot more Hummers, and jeeps – there really isn’t anything that the US car companies can quickly contribute – Aircraft I could see making an argument for Boeing or Lockhead, but GM making cannons, etc – It’s now all about missles and smartbombs – Just because they have Onstar, I don’t think that’s going to translate to a military advantage

3) If our backs, we’re really pressed to the wall, you think the goverment would hesitate to nationalize the foreign auto plants in Spring Hill, or Ohio – Just because it says Toyota on the factory door, doesn’t mean the US citizens don’t know how to run the plant. As long as ANY cars are manufactured in the US, we have heavy manufacturing capacity. It’s a global economy, and as the nameplate on the door is fairly meaningless, in a time of national crisis – The next jeep could look alot like a Pathfinder..

I can understand SOME concerns for jobs, pensions, economic well-being for letting the big three die (and I spoken several times about letting one of them die (bye Chrysler) to help the other two), but GM being important for national defense – I don’t see it.

GFA

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DNC local 289 Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

126 Dan Petit,

Thank you for your brave, unwavering support of the Democritic Socialist Party on GM-Volt dot com. As you know, we do nothing but good with the tax revenues the American public volunteers to give us each April 15, and throughout the year via payroll deduction.

You are right to ignore the lesser-minded citizens of this country who claim, quite inaccurately, that we spend America’s tax money with anything less than the utmost care and compassion.

As you also know, once we gain control over the failing health care infrastructure in this country, we can help the less fortunate. We will, at last, be able to treat the many mental conditions which cause conservative thinking in the first place: depression, paranoia, manic/depressive behaviors, and many others. We even look forward to treating those who some view as enemies of our great cause: Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly, G. Gordon Liddy, just to name a few. Given time, they can be turned into happy, productive citizens.

Remember what we taught you: forced sharing is caring, nothing really “belongs” to anyone but the State, and people must always be protected from making bad choices (as defined by the Party). If you see any bad behaviors like someone smoking, driveing a Hummer, eating fast food, etc (see encrypted Party website for full list), report it to your local Democratic Party official. You will receive instructions on protesting, and media coverage will be arranged through our Party television network stations.

Again, thank you for your support. You may expect a box of delicious Obama’s Reserve chocolate chip cookies as a reward for loyalty to the Party.

Sincerely,
Harry Reid, acting Democratic Socialist Party chairman.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 6:44 pm

So the Volt will cost around $29,000 after tax credits.
___________________________

Daily references to the NEED for tax credits to make Volt competitive reveal its weakness quite well. Keep it up.

Only 500,000 credits are available industry wide, with a maximum of 200,000 per automaker. How will this configuration of Volt compete afterward?

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

#128
……………….
LOL.
Dan Petit Austin TX.

(Quote)
Tex-Arl Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

I applaud DNC local 289.

#128

========================================================

#127 & 130

Dan Petit

========================================================

You have to ignore those (or many) who reside in the ivory towers that glow orange. When they get out in the real world, things change.

(Quote)
Dan Petit Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:02 pm

131
Yes, there is a point where “Let them eat cake” is increasingly true and hopefully that French history does not repeat itself.
I see that even through these bad times, people are making excellent changes and getting to better know who it is that really cares about their future transportation, being able to get to work, church, and buy groceries.
The 101 shops I support are all the hard-working and honest ones.
(Which leaves me to wonder why many others do not sooner give me the “green light” to train their techs if not for lack of business).
Your vehicles must be attended to on an ongoing basis. The insane amount of excessive technologies within them has gotten to the point where all this thinking about “luxuries” marketing-wise is one of the things that is harming the long-term economic feasabilites of having necessary transportation. We can not any longer afford most of the foofy and goofy stuff loaded onto transportation.
The Volt represents freedom not just from gasoline and all the other past tragedies of petro-war-lordsmanship, but the systems that are eliminated truly represent an entire set of extremely nasty financial risks also eliminated.
We must have these freedoms from excessive technologies. This is a fancy way of saying what Captain Jack wants (and truly needs like most of the rest of us.) This is just common sense.
I will predict that by the time the Volt begins to become available to us, the reprogramming problems and costs for the 2007 and later models will definitely become an issue.
Based on what I foresee here, it would be an enormous marketing leap ahead for
1. Volt processor and subprocessor programming be backed up with non-volatile memory for all systems with rotating version partitions in EPROM (for successive update versions) in addition to the basic initial release ROM.
2. It would also be an extremely powerful marketing plan that: Updates for Volt be available at no cost to owners and ASE Certified L-1 techs, and, just a highly-advanced and random-encrypted specialized jump drive be included for the Volt with a one-time use (and internal file-shred if any non-Volt communications occur with it).
Creativity ought to be shared to solve problems in preventing financial loss technologically. Politically turning away 550 million to help take care of kids across Texas actually harms all Texans, because those costs must not only be passed on to all Texans, but, the medical professionals are ripped off and over worked as well because they can not get paid at all, all too frequently.
*****************
That
****************
is why I think that not helping the uninsured kids here, and, properly compensating our extremely overworked medical professionals is unChristian, and, it is an abomination.

******************
PERIOD!
*****************
Dan Petit Austin TX.

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Patriot In Austin Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

“This paradigm that people have that taxes that they pay are still somehow their money is ridiculous to me.”

It is the taxpayer’s money. It was just plundered/taken by force. If I steal your car and drive it around, is it my car.

“When I pay property taxes for the last 30 years in order to put everyone else’s kids through grade school and junior college”

With the money you saved had you not been forced by law to pay that tax, you could have paid for your own child’s education on a superior basis. In Texas, this is probably true of most of us who are not illegal aliens, since the public school system is primarily in Texas a system that takes from property owners to spend (about 30%) on illegal immigrants’ kids education. Austin ISD spends/wastes $9,000 a year to mis-educate kids, and has managed to have multiple failing/substandard schools, and there are better private schools in Austin charging $3500 (Strickland) to $6,000 (local parochial schools) per year that do better.

“Taxes are collected for the common good.”

Do you believe in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy as well?

Taxes take from the productive working wealth creators and give to the politically connected looters of this nation. Except for a few exceptions like national defense, the ‘common good’ would be better served by keeping that money away from corrupt politicians and their looting friends, who end up spending the money far less responsibly than the taxpayers who created the wealth in the first place.

Obama signed a trillion dollar spending boondoggle which included a provision to allow AIG to give millions in bonuses. That was just ONE of many provisions that were never discussed *before* the bill was passed, in a mad rush by the Democrats in Congress to throw taxpayer money away. Was the bill a good bill? If it was so great, why is Obama and Dodd now lying about not knowing about provisions they *wrote* and *signed off on*?

And that is just a tip of the iceberg. Most of the waste, abuse and fraud goes on and is ignored in the huge behemoth spending spree.

“Those monies are either used prudently by elected officials (with common sense for the common good, as in bringing forth green electric motoring for us all),”

If this is green motoring is such a great idea, let entrepreneurs and the market develop it on a self-funding basis. Dont loot taxpayers for your favorite eco-tech dreams. Govt has already pumped tens of billions into ‘green energy’ research, hydrogen car research, alt. energies. Most of it ends up wasted. Why? Because Govt is incapable of careful stewardship of money – different from say a VC firm, which at least which grade the return on investment. Not a single Govt bureaucrat gets fired because his program is non-economical. They arent SUPPOSED to be. Result: We inevitable fund more losers than winners, funding bad economics over good economics.

” or, taxes squandered by those elected officials too closely tied with an unearned heritage or influence of power and wealth.”

Which is the far more COMMON result! (Actually, it is the generally inevitable result – you need to read Bastiat’s “The Law”, as the injustice that results from the politics of plunder is a universal law.)

At our Federal level, we see taxpayer money squandered on pork barrel highway projects that should be state-funded or more equitably decided. Squandered on wasteful and counterproductive ethanol subsidies. Squandered on racist ‘diversity’ programs and counterproductive regulations (Sarbanes-oxley) that stunt our economy.
Squandered on an $80 billion Dept of Education that is a net MINUS to the learning of kids, part of a wider wasteful education system that spends less that 60% of the money in the classroom and wastes billions on programs that dont work, harm kids (bilingual education) or dumbs them down into mediocrity.
Squandered on trillion-dollar boondoggles (Obama’s faux ’stimulus’) that will push our debts onto the next generation. Squandered on an over-expansive welfare-stimulus-subsidy-socialist economy that was only 18% of GDP a few years back but thanks to the massive overspending in Washington will soak up 27% of our GDP. This massive distortion of economics is harmful to our freedom as well as our prosperity.

Desiring the destruction of our freedom and prosperity just so you can get some feeble subsidy for the GM Volt reminds me of that retort in the “Man for all Seasons”, Thomas More telling the sellout who perjured himself so he could get a govt job in Wales: “You did it for *Wales?* I mean are you that serious, that you’d give up freedom and prosperity, and stick taxpayers with a huge bill, just so you could buy your favorite PHEV for a bit less money? And you are self-delusional enough to think this sellout and assault on your fellow citizens’ freedom and wallet is a ‘common good’?

Socialism sucks.

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Patriot In Austin Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

“Federal Taxes YOU pay in Texas, for example, are not coming back to Texas because of a very pathetic lack of common sense and political conceitedness it seems to me.”

The outrage should be directed at the buffoons in the Democrat Congress and Obama for their dasterdly bait-and-switch attempt to impose more socialism in America via the faux stimulus and Federal over-spending. It was not a stimulus. They demanded that states change laws in order to ‘accept’ this money – change the laws in ways that would saddle TEXAS taxpayers with more taxes-spending and an expanded welfare state once the money runs out – in 2011 in the case of unemployment program, similarly with SCHIP.

This is the socialist politicians moral equivalent of a drug dealer giving free samples. Obama and the Democrats in Congress want to hook all 50 states on expanded government. it’s an outrage that they loaded up their bills with such onerous ’strings’. The SCHIP expansion to people making $80,000 is an outrage, becase we know that people making a lot less than that will pay sales taxes and other taxes to support this program. Dumb idea for this ‘downpayment on socialized medicine’.

Here’s a better plan: Repeal the stimulus, repeal the ill-conceived schip expansion and its tax increase, and instead send the money back to the states entirely and let the state’s decide on their own how to fund and what do to. Then, fiscally responsible states like Texas will be able to manage well, as they have in the past, and it wont turn into another hell-hole mis-managed state like Cali, which tax-and-borrow-and-spent itself into near bankruptcy.

(Quote)
Patriot In Austin Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 9:53 pm

“CO2 goes everywhere once released.”

Um, no. C02 is consumed by plants, fixed by ocean carbonates, it doesnt go everywhere.
Its a wonderful molecule that is not harming the planet, so stop beating it up. Without CO2 there would be no life on earth. And if you think global warming is happening, check the last 10 years – there has been no net global warming since 1998!

(Quote)
Patriot In Austin Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:00 pm

“Underfunded liabilities is a balace sheet sort of thing, so that doesn’t concern the wider financial markets nearly as much as the direct deficit…it becomes a problem when the future liability turns into a current reality.”

— which will happen once the baby boomers retire and we see the worker to retiree ratio go down even more, turning the Social Security/medicare ponzi/Madoff scheme into a demographic nighmare.

It was irresponsible for the Democrats to oppose social security reform in 2005 at a time when we could have done seomthing.

Now Obama wants to squander $600 *billion* on a mere ‘downpayment’ on socialized medicine ON TOP of his $1 trillion faux stimulus boondoggles and as part of $16 TRILLION of spending in only the next 4 years!!

This massive and huge overspending will bankrupt America ON TOP of the unsustainable situation we have looming in entitlements.

“Then the administration is forced to actually move on it, which means raising the money/printing the money…or changing the benchmarks of payment.”

… Uh yes, and after Obama has squandered and looted America’s wealth, as he plans, the only solution that will be left 8-10 years down the road to ‘fixing’ this mess will be hyperinflation or the bankruptcy of the US Government.

The US Govt has ‘fixed’ every previous bubble with a new bubble – Obama’s bubble is the BIG GOVT BUBBLE. When it pops, it will be very ugly.

(Quote)
Patriot In Austin Says:
March 26th, 2009 at 10:25 pm

The price you pay for Canadian healthcare – you get to die of things that wouldn’t kill you in America. A physician explains how Canada-care (and lack of CT scanners in their system) killed Natasha Richardson:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03262009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/canadacare_may_have_killed_natasha_161372.htm

“Richardson died of an epidural hematoma — a bleeding artery between the skull and brain that compresses and ultimately causes fatal brain damage via pressure buildup. With prompt diagnosis by CT scan, and surgery to drain the blood, most patients survive.

Could Richardson have received this care? Where it happened in Canada, no. In many US resorts, yes. ”

There are more CAT scanners in you average size US city than in Quebec Province. Bureaucrats in socialized healthcare find rationing more conveninet than do the patients.

(Quote)
Dale Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:31 am

I still believe we should invest with a down payment of $200,000 billion and buy #20,000 @ $40,000 e-volt vehicles with another $200,00 billion upon delivery – gets the auto carriers the cash they need and the government leading the way for the change off oil

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Dave G Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 9:41 am

#136 Patriot In Austin Says: And if you think global warming is happening, check the last 10 years – there has been no net global warming since 1998!
————————————————————————————–
The study you’re talking about is only for North America. Over the last 10 years, average ocean temperatures have increased significantly. Temperatures have also increased dramatically around the north and south poles.

The result of all this is more extreme weather patterns – more droughts, more hurricanes, more tornadoes, more floods, – here’s a good example:
Red River reaches record level, floods Fargo with uncertainty
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/weather/03/27/north.dakota.flooding/index.html

Also, we see average temperatures at high elevations increasing, and this has melted most of the snow pack that supplies our aquifers during the summer, which means we will start to see severe water shortages…

Meanwhile, the average temperatures across most fo the U.S. is about the same.

That’s why they call it Climate Change, because that’s what we’ll notice most.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 10:23 am

#140 Dave G:

Next thing you know, you’ll be trying to tell the poor guy he’s descended from a monkey, LOL. My advice is to save the wear and tear on your poor fingers. Arthritis sets in soon enough as it is. You might as well try to have a polite debate with the wall.

It’s gonna have to get a lot worse before these types finally have to face the truth. Denial rules the world.

(Quote)
DNC local 289 Says:
March 27th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

Dave G and Noel Park – Thank you for your unwavering support of the Democratic Socialist party. However, Noel is right – It is better to support our cause with the facts we give you, rather than antagonize self-proclaimed right wing “patriots”.

As long as they have guns, they are a danger to us all. It is better not to confront them, as their grip on reality can easily snap. Don’t worry – we have a plan to return all the guns to our Party controlled military. We tested it in New Orleans before the hurricane hit, and it was a big success. Our agents were able to collect over 90 percent of the guns on the registered handgun list, using a cover story about “keeping them out of the hands of looters”. We did have to give most of them back – eventually, after many of them rusted beyond use. The federal government will be under no such obligation.

Once guns are no longer a problem, we can use the national health system to help people like #134 “Patriot in Austin”. He clearly has mental health issues, but with proper care, he can be returned to society as a happy, well-adjusted citizen. I feel we can help almost all of the people with mental issues which cause right-wing thoughts. The few we cannot treat will be kept out of society, and made comfortable until a treatment can be found, or they pass away. All will receive compassionate care, and that is a promise from the Party to you.

Remember what we taught you: forced sharing is caring, nothing really “belongs” to anyone but the State, and people must always be protected from making bad choices (as defined by the Party). If you see any bad behaviors like someone smoking, driving a Hummer, eating fast food, etc (see encrypted Party website for full list), report it to your local Democratic Party official. You will receive instructions on protesting, and media coverage will be arranged through our Party television network stations.

Again, thank you for your support. You both may expect a box of delicious Obama’s Reserve chocolate chip cookies by mail, as a reward for loyalty to the Party.

Sincerely,
Harry Reid, acting Democratic Socialist Party chairman.

(Quote)
tinhorn Says:
March 29th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

Somehow all these BK stories take on a totally surreal meaning. A check of global sales, national media, foreign expansion and the general retail business shows a big credibility gap in the media pitch and actual numbers.

GM is already in the middle of it’s transformation to an EV manufacturer. And they are doing a yeoman’s job of it. And the only place you hear the BK story is… right here at GM-VOLT. Curious, and curiouser!

(Quote)

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