There is still uncertainty about exactly how and where GM will launch the Volt come November 2010. Earlier reports suggest San Francisco and Washington DC have caught GM’s eye due to plug-in readiness, but GM denies that those locations have been settled upon.
I had the chance to gain a little more insight into this process by asking Jon Lauckner. Jon is GM’s VP of global program management, and is along with Bob Lutz, co-creator of the Volt concept.
Do you have a better idea now how many Volts you will build and where they will be released?
We have a better picture, but I wouldn’t say we have finally settled on it. I would say what we have decided is we probably are not going to use an approach where we launch the Volt simultaneously in all markets in the US. Lets face it, this vehicle is a bit different than a normal vehicle. We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.
There needs to be some education and training. Obviously if people buy a Volt and they don’t plug it in at night or they plug it in only sporadically they’re going to have a very different customer experience and probably not be as completely satisfied with the Volt as they would if they were plugging it in each and every night and using it exactly they was it was intended, recognizing that electricity was meant to be used as its primary fuel, not the small gas engine on board that was intended to be its range extender.
Do you think you will produce a small initial supply just for people to learn about it and then ramp it up?
I think more specifically what we will do is launch it geographically. So we’ll start in a particular geographic area. We’ll maybe pick two or three geographic areas and start there. We’ll make sure we understand everything about launching the vehicle and understand how customers are using it and what their driving experience is, and then quickly ramp up other geographic in the US and around the world.
Will you be soliciting feedback from those initial buyers?
Absolutely. Those are people that will be purchasing the vehicle but we are going to try to establish a very close relationship with those people. People that are genuinely interested in the Volt for its technology and the fact that it doesn’t use petroleum as its primary fuel and have a strong interest in helping us make that particular type of propulsion huge success. Like you Lyle. That’s how we pretty much see this thing going. We have a little more work to do before we announce exactly how we’re going to do it, but we’ve pretty much settled out on the fact that were not going to try to go everywhere all at once. That probably doesn’t make a lot of sense, we are probably better served by being a bit more measured than we would be in a typical vehicle launch.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, March 24th, 2009 at 5:57 am and is filed under Launch, Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Mar 24th, 2009 (5:58 am)Washington DC is the natural choice.
It’s the home of the biggest customer.
GM is quoted as saying “We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.” What does this mean, or is it just a pseudo-reason for decisions made on some other basis? Isn’t the Volt a car that can be charged anywhere there is an electric outlet?
When GM says “…we’ve pretty much settled out on the fact that were not going to try to go everywhere all at once….” I understand that to mean that the Volt is going to try to be a California car, or at the least that it will be a long long time before there are any in NC.
(I am tempted to ask if GM also will be sending back the NC portion of their federal bailout.)
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:07 am)DC is an ideal area. The 3 highest income (median income) counties in the country surround DC (district of corruption) and based on the number of hybrids I see on the road in this area, the people will be interested in something like the Volt.
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:15 am)DC is an ideal area because it is where the government operates and is now the source of GM’s operating budget. Insofar as DC’s charging infrastructure, however, I fail to see how it is different or better than hundreds of other places.
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:20 am)ooo! ooo! Pick me! Pick me!
I have a full appreciation for this technology.
I will, I will plug it in every night. I promise
Pretty pleeeeeease. Pick me. I will tell you everything about the car.
My likes, my dislikes.
See my hand is raised high. Ooo pick me!
I will test both battery and engine, since my 101 miles commute will use both. I’m perfect for this. Pleeeeeeeeeease pick me.
Awe shoot, you’re going to pick someone else, aren’t you.
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:23 am)#4 Rashiid –> Great post
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:28 am)I think I will be pretty jealous reading all the posts about how good it is, when I can’t even get one, possibly, until 2012.
/grits teeth.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:45 am)Another reason why I should not have moved out of California to the most backwards city of Atlanta. Woo is me
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:50 am)From the article: We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.
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What does that mean?
When you see how the charge port cover works at the beginning of this video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXD30uA1th0
it’s obvious that it wasn’t designed to be charged outside in the ice and snow. So any infrastructure of outside charging ports wouldn’t be viable for the Volt.
Besides, if plug-ins go mass market, our grid capacity won’t support day-time charging – not even close.
So this leaves overnight charging in your garage as the only viable option.
Why does GM keep bringing up this “charging infrastructure”? What is it?
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:57 am)Thanks RB #5,
My shot at some humor while still being partly serious.
Mar 24th, 2009 (6:57 am)I’m on the list. I’m holding on to my older car, which is really beginning to show its age, because I don’t want to buy a new car that is not electric. I was hoping to get one in early 2011. Now it appears that I may not be able to make it. Or rather, my car may not be able to make it to 2012. Unless this is a “pre” release in 2010, to be quickly followed by a wide release within 6 months or so, I am going to be very, very disappointed.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:02 am)I agree DC will be the first to get the Volt due to many good reasons. San Francisco will not be high on the list because of it’s steep hills. It’s probably one of the worst place to test the Voltec’s technology.
The area between New York and Connecticut would be a another great place. People there are wealthy and commute between these two states….. and the roads are flat.
Another great place would be in the Silicon Valley in California.
Time will tell.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:05 am)Hehehe… typical and smart marketing scheme. Just like the Nintendo Wii. “Limited supplies”, “Targeted markets”, really just mean increased and sustained customer frenzy. Social engineering 101. Just like Nintendo, control your initial desire to flood the market and in return create long term demand that is relatively predictable. How much you all want to bet that in the first week of sales, we’ll see some go on Ebay for $80K+?
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:06 am)I’d love to have one but now I’m certain I won’t have the opportunity for some years. Shame, really. When’s the plug in Prius coming out? That’ll likely be my next car. Sigh. I’d rather have a Volt.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:11 am)Donal Campbell Says: @7
“Another reason why I should not have moved out of California to the most backwards city of Atlanta. Woo is me”
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I don’t know why you would put down Atlanta because to me California is one of the worst state to live in. Only it’s natural disasters are enough to keep me from living there, not to mention many other reasons…..but to each their own.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:24 am)Dave G Says: @8
“So this leaves overnight charging in your garage as the only viable option.
Why does GM keep bringing up this “charging infrastructure”? What is it?”
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Dave, get real! Do you really believe that? That’s like saying GM is not smart enough to develop a safe outside charging port but yet smart enough enough to design the Voltec system?
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:31 am)California, Florida, DC, and NYC were the areas mentioned in previous posts.
Doesn’t seem likely that it has changed.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:32 am)If I were planning on marketing the Volt, I would roll it out in places that
buy the most hybrids, which is to say California, along with a few other
places, such as Washington DC and Florida where hybrid sales also do ok.
Charging infrastructure could mean most anything, but if we use the
context provided in the interview, it appears to refer to the knowledge base of the buyers.
As far as number of cars, if production starts in November 2010 and 1250 cars are made during each of the next 8 months, all the
cars could be sold in southern California. Then production jumps up to 5000 per month for the next 12 months, with cars appearing
in the three locations. So starting in June, 2012, the rest of the hybrid buying locations such as Washington state, Oregon, Texas would start getting vehicles. I would target Atlanta and a place near you in 2015.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:45 am)Toyota will be selling about 150 plug-in lithium powered Priuses starting late this year. So it is unlikely that their coast to coast rollout of hundreds of thousands of plug-ins will occur before October 2010.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:45 am)There’s nothing to say that you couldn’t order a Volt regardless of your location. If you happen to go to a Chevy dealer and get your name on a list with a deposit I don’t think they would turn the sale down. Not launching nationally does mean not available nationally. You just wont see a demo car on the lot.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:46 am)All I know is if they want this car to be a success and to for customers to return to GM, they have to roll it out nationwide in all markets within a year of launch. If it is not available to all markets by the fall of 2011 they will be eclipsed by other manufacturers. In addition, people such as myself who want one of these desperately will be pissed off and shop elsewhere if they can’t get it within a year of initial launch.
Since Michigan is the home of GM it should be available here just as it would be anywhere else!
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:46 am)One has to assume they pretty much are settled on what they are doing, however this question interests me from Lyle:
“Will you be soliciting feedback from those initial buyers?”
Answer: Absolutely. Those are people that will be purchasing the vehicle but we are going to try to establish a very close relationship with those people….understand how customers are using it and what their driving experience is
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Maybe it is just me, but with it getting so late in the game, and relatively no ‘seat time’ for production prototypes, coupled with this ‘very close relationship’ comment, I’m starting to get the feeling that initial production deadline of November 2010 is going to ‘quasi-met’/confused with limited/captured public test fleet.
A couple locations, maybe select customers (?), with a direct attachment/feedback channel to GM. Sounds like a test fleet…not commercial production.
I draw the distinction now, because previously we had very generic high population density locations being given (New York, California, Florida, DC) without any mention of strings, which just made sense for the first 6 months or so while they ramped up…the thought never really crossed my mind that GM might be rolling a test/captured fleet and maybe calling it production.
I’m not saying that is what this is…time will tell, but I’m just getting that feeling…like anyone in New York can’t just roll up and buy a Volt in November of 2010 and then wave goodbye. Starting to feel like you have to be in certain spots, make a application, sign a two way deal, etc.
Makes a lot of sense for GM to do it this way, they limit liability, they get their test time. More importantly they don’t have to hit their Nov 2010 deadline…but can still say they did, and most of the population will accept that.
/plot thickens
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:47 am)So much for the chance that our list here would have any bearing on ownership chances.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:50 am)One can always order a Volt from a DC or California (or wherever it is sold) dealer and drive it back home (to wherever one lives). That way, you’ll have the chance to give that ol’ range extender a worthy road test.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:52 am)Retarded.
Lauckner says the charging infrastructure needs to be in place first! Hello, we all have 120 volt outlets.
News flash – The charging infrastructure is here….now….and ready to go.
GM is going ro screw this up so badly that I will probably buy another companies PHEV / EV first…sheesh
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:52 am)#12 Willy Bio says regarding the Nintendo Wii rollout –> “…Just like Nintendo, control your initial desire to flood the market and in return create long term demand that is relatively predictable…”
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It’s an interesting comparison that cuts both ways. One thing is that I’m not sure Nintendo did it that way on purpose. Another is that NC is one of the areas where virtually no Wii’s were initially available despite intense interest. Now we are flooded, but there is hardly any interest any more, as it is seen as “yesterday’s toy” by the younger set (and most of their parents).
The same thing can happen with the Volt. Remember, after the first 6 months positive comments about the Volt will be somewhat offset by comments about limitations (and inevitably there will be some), so customers who might have bought one had there been the opportunity in the first wave will be taking a much calmer look at one more new car among the many on the market.
GM has a real asset right now in the substantial group of people who are interested in being “first adopters.” Once they fritter that away, as they seem determined to do, it will be hard to rekindle the fire.
GM also has a small risk factor that people in the non-chosen geographical areas are going to get mad at being left out and write their senators and reps about why they are paying taxes to bail out GM so that it can make fancy expensive cars for CA and DC residents. It’s unlikely and only partly rational, but there is real anger, just as with AIG.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:00 am)#13 Neil said:
I’d love to have one but now I’m certain I won’t have the opportunity for some years. Shame, really. When’s the plug in Prius coming out? That’ll likely be my next car. Sigh. I’d rather have a Volt.
===============
You have limited worldwide roll-out to corporate starting late this year.
As of now they have 100 slated for France in late Q3. Toyota has pushed slightly back on the US release, giving January as a expected receive date here for 150 copies. Another 200-300 will be at home in Japan and used as promotional tools in other countries.
Because the ‘Plug-In Prius’ is not its own car…and is not sold that way, the goal is to make it available (as a option) concurrent with the release of the 2011 model year Prius…which would be Q4 of 2010.
Side note: If you are looking for a more ‘all electric’ offering from Toyota, they have committed to producing a “pure electric” vehicle for sale by 2012…although it is a small “urban commuter” type vehicle (modelled off the iQ).
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:19 am)27.
Guy Incognito Says:
March 24th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Advertise
Advertise
Advertise
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:27 am)#21 statik mentions the possibility “..that GM might be rolling a test/captured fleet and maybe calling it production.”
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It’s possible. Another possibility is that GM is trying to maximize the effect of the Volt as a “political car” while internally growing more doubtful about the Volt’s future as a competitive car choice in the broader market. That is, use the Volt for the one thing you know it does well and minimize the risks and expense associated with a national introduction.
As has been noted many times here, the Volt appears too expensive to be competitive in the regular retail market. That may be especially true with the recent downturn in consumer interest in smaller cars (for example, today’s USA Today).
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:28 am)San Francisco is a terrible place to roll this out. Lots of hills may translate to less than optimal battery performance. DC is flat, which is good, and has fairly temperate weather which is also good. GM should pick cities that give the optimal data, since that early data will be very high profile.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:31 am)#23 Jeff says One can always order a Volt from a DC or California (or wherever it is sold) dealer and drive it back home (to wherever one lives). That way, you’ll have the chance to give that ol’ range extender a worthy road test.
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A drawback is that only a few dealers will have the equipment and service personnel with the training needed to provide Volt service. As a cutting-edge new car, likely it will need some.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:33 am)#29 Jim in PA says “San Francisco is a terrible place to roll this out. Lots of hills may translate to less than optimal battery performance. DC is flat, which is good, and has fairly temperate weather which is also good. GM should pick cities that give the optimal data, since that early data will be very high profile.”
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I agree. San Diego (or Los Angeles) would seem to be better choices in CA.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:33 am)I will try to be fair and balanced in stating my thoughts on this plan by G M to introduce the Volt to the market.
First–I agree with D C , thats where the loans come from.
Second—I disagree with SanFrancisco. This site alone has had several from this city bragging about how they do not have a Chevy dealership there [don't know if that is true]
Third–for a great test fleet simply read the remarks from this site and pick buyers from across the states. They could have some guide lines like must be able to charge the battery at home and be willing to give reports to G M via a toll free number at the first hint of a problem.
Forth–if John Q. Public gets the impression that you have to live in some special place they WILL quickly loose interest in the Volt.
Last–I would be sure that Lyle got one of the first ones because I could be sure that his reports would be daily and read by many thousands of interested readers. Think I would also try to get one in statics driveway for the same reasons as Lyle. His post are the result of careful thought and not emotional blather. And very soon one should be in the driveway of an old man in NC.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:43 am)#15 Joe Says: Dave, get real! Do you really believe that? That’s like saying GM is not smart enough to develop a safe outside charging port but yet smart enough enough to design the Voltec system?
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Joe, have you looked at the Volt’s charge port design in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXD30uA1th0
Once you see how it works, I’m pretty sure you’ll agree that it isn’t designed for ice and snow.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:44 am)I am just curious why they are waiting till November of 2010 to release this vehicle. People want this vehicle now. I understand that their maybe issues to work out and this talk of infrastructure but if they wanted to start this test with consumers in generalized locations they should start later this year. That way in November 2010 they can have this ready for a worldwide release.
I think GM is underestimating people though. Those are going to be in line to buy a Volt at the begining know exactly why they are buying this vehicle.
Yeah this sucks too cause under their current plan I won’t be able to buy one in Alabama for probably 3 to 5 years
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:46 am)#18 Van Says: Toyota will be selling about 150 plug-in lithium powered Priuses starting late this year.
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Is this the fleet test or something the general public can buy? Any info appreciated.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:52 am)#24 jabroni Says: Lauckner says the charging infrastructure needs to be in place first! Hello, we all have 120 volt outlets. News flash- The charging infrastructure is here…now…and ready to go.
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Right. I’m still trying to figure out what the heck Lauckner is talking about.
What’s more, if you look at the Volt’s charge port design here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXD30uA1th0
It’s pretty clear that the Volt isn’t designed to be charged outside in the ice and snow. Rain seems like it could also be a problem over time. So that sort of nixes any infrastructure of outdoor charging ports at malls, work, etc..
I’m totally baffled by Lauckner’s comment here.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:54 am)theflew @ 19: There’s nothing to say that you couldn’t order a Volt regardless of your location.
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I was thinking the same thing. If you live in Baltimore, for example, it’s not a big deal to drive 45 minutes to DC. Actually, I don’t think DC even has a Chevy dealer, so we are really talking about MD and/or VA anyway. If you walked in the door with $40,000 would they really tell you no if you lived in Baltimore or Philadelphia and drove down to DC for the day? An even more ridiculous scenario would be if you lived in Montgomery County, MD and walked into one of the local Chevy dealers that were selling the Volt and they told you they couldn’t sell you one unless you lived in DC.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:59 am)#27 Guy Incognito
Right on! I’ve been saying that for months.
The only “infrastructure change” that seems necessary is ‘schooling’ employers to have parking spaces with plug in outlets for the employees to use (at no charge… Get it?).
Not a requirement with the Volt, but employer support from large companies would go far on promoting EREV vehicles.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:05 am)Hopefully Denver. I’m ready.
Chevy Volt: American-made, American-FUELED.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:05 am)New York better be one of the selected regions.
San Francisco and Portland next.
Basically, ONLY URBAN AREAS.
No country trash. Most country folk would not have a clue how to correctly operate an EV anyhow.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:06 am)As a 3 car Buick owner, I do hope the Chevy Volt also launches a premium Buick version. Buick is legendary for the quiet ride. An electric car is ideal.
The sooner America puts an end to Middle-East oil fossil solutions, the sooner we can right our accounting books and stop sending my fellow military soldiers to patrol the Oil Highway. The real cost of a gallon of gas, factoring in the American subsidy of military patrols is $10/gallon. We Americans subsidize the rest of the world at our expense by protecting oil and their use of this disdainful product.
US Air Force (retired)
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:11 am)Just let us know what type of plug we need in our garage. I have plenty of breaker space to put in a dedicated circuit.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:11 am)“Those are people that will be purchasing the vehicle but we are going to try to establish a very close relationship with those people. People that are genuinely interested in the Volt for its technology.”
That’s us!
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:13 am)Jersey needs the Volt.
Badabing.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:14 am)#40 johnny mac
Sorry it took so long to respond. You all understand that I had to get the dang hay seed off from this key board thing a ma jig. Thanks to the TVA we got some juice in them wires. [there is suppose to be a smiley face here]
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:16 am)I guess that means that Central Alberta, Canada will not see a Volt till 2015 or possibly later ? I am # 974 on this list and it looks like I will be buying 1 or 2 new cars for myself before the Volt will be available for me… I was looking at all the current hybrids out there but am currently torn between the 2010 Ford Fusion…(not available here till late summer but has a lot of positive comments from the different car sites) and the Honda Civic Hybrid . I was at my Honda dealer yesterday (picking up motorcycle parts) and took a good look at the Civic Hybrid.. It shows impressive numbers for gas milage (similar to the Prius which I do not want to buy) I will be buying a new car September this year and I have narrowed it down to one of these 2.. I was going to go with the Fusion but now am not so sure after seeing the Civic.
GM.. I have deposit in hand… am willing to be a test case for the northern climates…have an outdoor plug in…and can take delivery now…..
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:18 am)I think the poster above is correct (you can go to roll out location and buy one). I think the Denver Chevy dealer will be disappointed when I drive out of state (I’m in Denver) to buy one of these in DC or elsewhere. Why GM isn’t going to take orders, typically at full sticker, throws into question their ongoing management challenges. First to announce the industry tranformation to electrics, yet last manufacturer to launch – this is the GM way; bureacratic and little flexibility.
Come on GM – 100,000 a year was the promise. This is a national rollout at that number – No?
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:19 am)Another vote for Mongomery County, Maryland.
It is next to DC and is central to the MD/VA region. Also a very technically savy area and high profile. A wide array of commutes around here, topography, and weather. GM could learn a lot from us.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:23 am)#47 jbfalaska Says: I think the Denver Chevy dealer will be disappointed when I drive out of state (I’m in Denver) to buy one of these in DC or elsewhere.
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What if you buy it D.C. and it breaks down in Colorado? The Denver dealership’s service technicians won’t be trained yet, so you’ll have to tow it back to D.C. to get it fixed.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:24 am)Just have the car text message the owner if it’s in need of charge and not plugged in.
I just moved to Texas…I will be your tester for the South.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:27 am)I can certainly understand why a company promoting an electric car would be interested in launching in California. However, in this case, I think that doing so (exclusively) would be a great mistake: it sends the wrong message for a “breakout” product:
“Here’s another toy for the land of fruit and nuts … irrelevant anywhere else.”
Bitter? Just a tad. Californians are spoiled with all the cool new things. Give someone else a turn. This is how places like Atlanta get maligned as “backwards.”
Atlanta metro area needs to be considered:
1) generally mild weather
2) notorious traffic
3) no regional refineries makes entire SE dependent upon pipelines, any disruption leads to shortages
4) strategically located for future expansion
5) plenty of electrical capacity, thanks to the Southern Company
6) and most importantly, it’s where I live.
Similarly, selling it only in urban areas sends the message that the Volt is another short-range “urban-commuter” golf-cart on steroids.
Seriously, it doesn’t look like I’ll be able to afford a ‘first one,’ anyway, so whatever.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:30 am)Should be released in L.A. and DC first. Then you have both coasts represented.
Get Obama to tool around DC in one and the world will change overnite.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:32 am)I hope that I will be high on the list. I live in southern California and my driving need fit the Volt schedule very closely. Most of my driving is less than 20 miles, although every other month I take a trip of 50 – 75 miles. My area is mostly flat, but there are a few significant hills. I am a patent attorney, so I understand new technology and people look to me for information it. Also, I have been a believer in electric cars most of my 80+ years. I am really excited about the Volt because I believe that the time is right and GM is the right company to lead the way.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:35 am)#46 Ray Says: I guess that means that Central Alberta, Canada will not see a Volt till 2015 or possibly later
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It’ll be much sooner than that, probably 2012. The idea is to select a few areas for the launch and then quickly build out from there. If they try to coordinate a launch in too many places at once, the logistical issues could make the launch less successful.
But after the initial launch, probably very early in 2011, GM will start to debut the Volt in many other metro areas. Later in 2011, most metro areas will probably be covered, and they will start start shipping the next model year Volt to most Chevy dealerships within North America.
Of course, this all assumes GM survives the current economic crisis with the Volt program relatively intact.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:35 am)I bought two Ford products (two Lincoln MKX) this year after the Chevy Volt engine plant was put on delay. I’ve timed my payoff of my car to when I thought the Volt would be available. Hope this proves close to correct.
I’m glad GM is leading the charge on electrics, and the Volt clearly is a great electric vehicle to launch. Hope they lead rather than follow this development after all the fanfare. With great fortune to America, all of us on this site may be witnessing the turning of the Titanic to new shores. An electric automobile industry puts many nations back in the drivers seat and back in control of the direction of their economy. Activist governments sure would help change the market economy to great benefit.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:40 am)It will be next to impossible for them to launch the Volt in San Francisco… THERE ARE NO GM DEALERS OF ANY KIND IN SAN FRANCISCO. However, somewhere in the Bay Area is a good idea. Loads of well off people receptive to new technology and love to wear their greeness on their sleeve. Plenty of first adopters here, almost a badge of honor here. I might pick Walnut Creek, San Jose, San Rafael and Redwood City.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:41 am)Hi Dave G, I think you may have been listening to GM for too long. Information that is valid does not change from week to week. So when I posted Toyota is planning to sell about 150 cars starting late this year, yes it is the same 150 cars they plan on selling to fleet buyers, such as SCE located in southern California. They also plan on selling about 100 cars in Europe. These will be fleet buyers as well. Toyota plans on making about 500 of these cars, so some will be sold in Japan too. Do I need to add to fleet buyers?
With GM everything remains unsettled pending “the announcement” we are all waiting for.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:41 am)#52 ziggy Says: Get Obama to tool around DC in one and the world will change overnight.
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Not a bad idea! Unfortunately, the secret service would never allow it. The president always uses the presidential limo for security reasons.
But maybe if other celebrities and politicians drove the Volt conspicuously at various events…
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:43 am)heh, makes me like the Aptera 2e even more as a commuter car
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:47 am)#21 Statik, good point but with today’s tehnology it is easier for GM to keep “track” and get feedback from many.
For the general performance of the car they can easily up load data with On Star and get a close to real time evaluation of the fleet. For the overall driver experience they can easily create an online journal for each new buyer (and actually create a new way to stay in contact with their customer base).
Since the key element will become more and more software, they could easily ask clients to pass by and get a firmware update.
This mean early client will have more frequent visit and you know what, I’m fine with this, I want this technology to succeed. I know I’m not the typical buyer, but so were the early buyer of Prius. You have to start somewhere.
I just wish Canada/Quebec would be in the early stage.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:48 am)#51 Jackson Says: Similarly, selling it only in urban areas sends the message that the Volt is another short-range “urban-commuter” golf-cart on steroids.
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To be clear, the launch will concentrate on specific metro areas, with California and DC topping the list, but the roll out to other metro areas should happen fairly quickly after the initial launch.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:50 am)#59 J. Muchagrove Says: heh, makes me like the Aptera 2e even more as a commuter car
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Do you still need a motorcycle license to drive that?
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:53 am)#57 Van Says: Hi Dave G, I think you may have been listening to GM for too long.
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You’re probably right. I need to find some other good alternative car sites. Any suggestions?
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:54 am)Back to a national release, It is not that hard to design packaging for electronic test equipment to be shipped by air. This test equipment could be sent anywhere with a technition to trouble shoot and assist a local service man.
I can not see any reason for selected markets unless G M has no faith in the first production run.
The more the product is spread around the more Volts will sell at full list. Believe it or not there are people with money in nearly all locations of this country and some of us want to spend it on a Volt.
It will be a lot easier to wait on a Volt if you actually see one in your neck of the woods [country saying]. If the vast majority of people know they can’t have one then vast parts of this country will be fertle ground for G M’s competition.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:55 am)Dave G @58
Yeah, of course Obama would have to have the whole thing “set up” with security. You know, sort of like Clinton used to do when he’d do his morning jogs to McDonalds.
Also I was thinking of that Ed Begley Jr. actor out in L.A. He’s an opinion leader on the whole green thing. And he seems genuineley interested in electric cars.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:57 am)#40 johnny mac
“New York better be one of the selected regions.
San Francisco and Portland next.
Basically, ONLY URBAN AREAS.
No country trash. Most country folk would not have a clue how to correctly operate an EV anyhow.”
Those in rural areas could benefit MOST from this type of technology. I have a 30 mile drive to work, the Volt could eliminate a huge portion of my gas budget. I am luckier than most, and will have the ability to re-charge free at work. Even if that were not the case, it still has the potential to reduce my gas usage by 2/3. Not too shabby. Also, almost all of us “country folk” have garages, barns, sheds, etc with power. Where else are we going to store all the tractors and ‘quipment?
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:57 am)#34 Jay said:
I am just curious why they are waiting till November of 2010 to release this vehicle. People want this vehicle now. I understand that their maybe issues to work out and this talk of infrastructure but if they wanted to start this test with consumers in generalized locations they should start later this year. That way in November 2010 they can have this ready for a worldwide release.
I think GM is underestimating people though. Those are going to be in line to buy a Volt at the begining know exactly why they are buying this vehicle.
Yeah this sucks too cause under their current plan I won’t be able to buy one in Alabama for probably 3 to 5 years
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Jay, it really isn’t a choice to wait until November 2010. Even if on the very first day they showed this vehicle in January of ’07 they green lit the project and had tens of billions of dollar bills backing it, they would be hard pressed to make a wordwide release of the Volt in time.
The fact is, that right now GM has two main problems (that limits them getting to market at all…or by november 2010 in anything other than a token quantity):
A) They don’t have the money to back the program the way it needs to be…or at least they way they foresaw it two years ago
B) They have no way to make/get batteries
First off, the money. GM hasn’t got it. Sure, the project is out there, and they are saying the right things, and the salaried staff are working…but at the end of the day, GM needs to start investing REAL dollar bills to take the next steps…like 10 figures. GM’s remaining money in the bank is there to try and keep the lights on at the moment…not to take a flyer on a future project, while everyone works in the dark. If GM gets the 16.6 billion in round 3 of bailout nation, I imagine the project goes on the fast track to try and they try to catch up.
Secondly, the batteries. There isn’t any. And not just for GM, there are no batteries in production to supply a full scale automotive application anywhere, for anyone. Nobody can or will be able to sell a EV in any quantity until at least 2012-2013. The closest thing is GS Yuasa/Mitsu, who has churned out about a thousand car specific packs…and is working its tail off to try to get production capacity up to 10,000 by Q3 2010, and then double/tripling up for 2011.
Toyota has several battery plants, but they produce mostly nickel-metal hydride batteries. They are building a new lithium plant (in conjunction with Panasonic…under the name Matsushita Electric), in Japan now, and have pegged early 2010 as the start for operations. Because the plug-in Prius battery uses less than a third of the capacity of its competitors, and the fact their is product is a known commodity, they know they will sell whatever they can produce, so you are likely to see initial volumes in the low tens of thousands (I’d say 25,000ish).
The only other company I know of that has hard production infrastructure in place is Nissan. They have a co-op plant with NEC, that is planned to start mass production in about 6 months.
There seems to be a lot of auto/3rd party contracts and discussions going on out there to buy a finished product, but the only real, tangible work on the ground so far seems to be coming from company’s that are putting down their own dollars to form a joint partnership with a player to make cars for themselves. (and that is even more money up front…which brings us back to the first point of contention for GM)
/hard to mass produce a electric car without batteries
Side note: I’m sure my list is fractured somewhat, as the landscape changes almost daily. If anyone else has info/details on plants currently being build to produce lithium batteries for big autos I’d enjoy hearing about it.
Disclaimer: I omitted the Johnson Controls/Saft plant in France…which is currently hodge-podging out hybrid packs. They have a deal with Ford for their 2012 product, and are to have 5,000 packs ready to go in 2012 (but I don’t believe any ground work is being done yet..still a long ways off). I assume they will also eventually produce for Mercedes (and future BMW) offerings as they seem to have a tight relationship.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:58 am)I think you need the public to see the car, doing its thing, routinely, as soon as possible.
I am looking forward to tooling down I270 everyday driving a Volt to work. Nothing like thousands of eyes a day seeing the car perform as advertised. No drama.
The badge on the car will attract the eyes. The conveniently placed, and subtle signs in the window, reminding them of what they are looking at will make them think…….
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:58 am)I would like a VOLT.
I do not need training.
I am not an idiot.
I promise …
I will remember that I have to plug it in to make it run.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:02 am)Lets be honest. There are tons of ignorant idiots in this world. Sometimes I’m an “ignorant idiot” even though I try to avoid it(lol) but I swear the first post I see with someone claiming the Volt is crap because it doesn’t work right…GRR! I will just assume they are another idiot who treats something they buy like crap and expect it to be perfect. Of course if said person provides details and gives a level headed description of the problem I wont act like that but I’m just waiting..you know it’s going to happen. The news loves anything with drama no matter the damage or the facts so all Volt fans should be ready to help educate people on batteries and best practices in relation to PEVs.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:02 am)#64 old man Says: I can not see any reason for selected markets unless G M has no faith in the first production run.
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To be clear, they are talking about selected launch markets.
The 2011 model year Volt will be launched in November 2010 in a few selected markets. That does not mean that 2011 model year Volts will be restricted to those initial launch areas. The roll out will expand quickly beyond the initial launch areas.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:02 am)The charging system infrastructure comment makes little sense unless GM is planning the initial release to be limited to a Government fleet of cars.
I wonder if GM has made such a commitment in order to obtain continuing bailout funds.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:06 am)Simply, if they don’t launch in my area, I’ll buy some other electric. I’m not going to wait for them to decide that Dallas is good enough to launch in 2012 or something like that. That’s just typical stupidity to bypass customers that want the car and know how to charge it.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:07 am)#61 Dave G said:
To be clear, the launch will concentrate on specific metro areas, with California and DC topping the list, but the roll out to other metro areas should happen fairly quickly after the initial launch.
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I don’t really know how we could know this to any degree of certaintly without knowing ‘the plan’.
If certain areas are able to take orders and first year production is ‘stressed,’ (as in 10,000 or less), you could have all the North American-intent capacity chewed up for over a year.
However, you could have a situation where no orders are taken at all…no wait lists. Then you have a totally different scenario. Cars are allocated simply by historical dealer volumes, Joe’s Chevy gets 7, Pete’s Chevy gets 5, etc. (ala the initial Honda Insight’s release)
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:07 am)as #56 implies….when they say SF they really mean particular bay area communities that have the right demographics…..just like when you say “LA” you really mean targeted areas like Santa Monica, Newport Beach, etc.
On the left coast I would think Portland and Seattle would be other logical choices….too bad, I live in PHX.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:13 am)Jerome@75
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Finally someone mentions Seattle!
Washington is the EVERGREEN State after all.
I live up here in the Northwest. Bainbridge Island is home to half the Priuses on the planet it seems. The Volt should be here early on in the game.
By the way, my commute is 36 miles round trip. Is the Volt perfect for me or what?
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:16 am)DC would be a better marketplace for the Converj than the Volt.
To gather the best usage data, including weather impact, GM should simply start with where the Volt is manufactured and radiate out from there. Detroit, Chicago, Columbus, Indianapolis, etc. Of course, living in the Chicago area, I might be biased, but I’m tired of cars getting the “California treatment” while the rest of the US is basically ignored. Come on, the Altima hybrid has been out for years but is still just a coastal car.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:22 am)Here’s what will happen. GM will roll them out slowly in selected locations : DC for political power, LA for star power and someplace else where it is a bit colder – might be Michigan for pride power. They will fix the bugs they didn’t catch yet – believe me, there will be a few left no matter how hard they work now, too much new software involved.
Then, when they are sure they have it right, they ramp up production, Mr. Prez comes up with a carbon tax of some sort so gas prices at the pump gets higher and voilà, the cars are available and the market needs them.
Piece of cake.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:24 am)40 Johnny Mac: “New York better be one of the selected regions.
San Francisco and Portland next. Basically, ONLY URBAN AREAS.
No country trash. Most country folk would not have a clue how to correctly operate an EV anyhow.”
That is a rather insulting statement. No wonder the U.S. is going down the tube; rather than people helping their neighbors, they act like they are better than them and cut them down. I We’ve all heard the term “dysfunctional family”… in the bigger picture I guess it’s called “dysfunctional country”.
Country folk don’t know to correctly operate an EV? They don’t know how to open the door? Sit down? Start the car by pressing a button? Put it in gear? Step on the “gas” pedal?
If not in “country trash” territory, I would imagine that a car like the Volt would be better in the Suburbs where someone can commute to work and have guaranteed access to an electrical outlet at their single family home. If you live in the heart of San Francisco, many people have to park on the street, and people will be fighting for the spots with a charging station.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:24 am)I want GM to recognize Lyle’s list because let’s face it–it played a major role in the PR response to the Volt. Use the list in the areas where the Volt will be launched and go from there… USE THE LIST!
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:25 am)People, people, people. We all want the Volt, in theory. To all you country folk, please stop with the self pity about those “urbanites” getting their way all the time. There is always someone more “country” than you. If I were GM, I’d go with high-population areas too. That allows the Volt to be seen by more people. It also allows GM to provide support more easily. Try to look at the matter from GM’s perspective.
That being said, San Luis Obispo, CA seems ideal for a Volt launch.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:30 am)@59 J. Muchagrove,
>> makes me like the Aptera 2e even more as a commuter car
(warning: Vanity post)…
In many ways, the Aptera 2e would be ideal for me. But living in Wisconsin, I haven’t heard enough (not even speculative claims from Aptera themselves) about its viability in a snowy and/or cold place.
It makes me sad
I would love to park an Aptera next to my Volt, yet they both seem like such distant dreams, even after closely following all news about them for a couple of years.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:36 am)ziggy@76:
Finally someone mentions Seattle! Got THAT right! Why is the OBVIOUS location for introducing the Volt always forgotten?
SEATTLE! SEATTLE! SEATTLE!… oh, and Portland.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:36 am)Sidenote : as for me, I figured a while ago that the Volt would not be available in my area before at least 2013 so I bought myself a new car last fall to replace my old car of ’92.
My next car should be a Volt when it becomes available in 2013 or a bit later.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:45 am)#43 ThombDbhomb:
Naaaahhh, makes too much sense.
#39 J. Muchagrove:
It could come to that.
#63 Dave G:
allcarselectric.com
Another outstanding Dennis effort, and more independent from GM-Volt.com than one might first expect.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:55 am)I noticed the paint is thin and oxidizing on my ’92 Honda Civic. My radio antenna broke off. The power window motors are weak. The air conditioning is out. The defroster is weak. The power door locks move slowly. The adhesive on the duct tape is drying out. In the last two weeks, trim pieces have broken off. My wife won’t let us be seen with this car much longer. No way is she gonna wait more than a year for the Volt. GM, I’m emotionally invested in this Volt thing. For ____’s sake, make a Volt available to me within a year. Otherwise, I’ll have to get the car my wife wants (which looks like a Prius). You don’t want your biggest competitor to get my business.
Eagerly,
ThombDbhomb (a Volt luster)
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:00 am)I am just not going to stress over this. I can nurse my old Chevys along for another 5 years. If they want to sell me a car, they just have to produce enough to go around.
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:02 am)Looks like there is another alternative for the ICE that is receiving an increase in attention and orders close to 1Million!
http://www.moller.com/downloads/FM_PR_Receiveorders.pdf
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:03 am)You are all wrong or rather are imprecise.
Washington DC has little garaging for automobiles. The DC suburbs certainly do. As is the case for San Francisco, or rather the Frisco suburbs and Silicon Valley. That is if there wil be a Silicon Valley by the end of 2010, as most firms are madly dashing to move out of California, and its loopy taxes and demagogic politicians.
Any of the post-automobile cities laid out like Los Angeles or Phoenix offer a lot more of a “charging environment” with lots of homes with garages.
The worst from a “charging environment” would be New York City obviously. And even its suburbs don’t help much. Auto commuters in NYC have much longer commutes that is typical elsewhere. The 40 mile AER and 80%- 20% rule would hardly apply there.
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:17 am)DC sounds great, A silver one please!
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:24 am)“Earlier reports suggest San Francisco and Washington DC have caught GM’s eye due to plug-in readiness, ”
There they go again confusing people.
YOU DON’T NEED A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!!
Why the phuk do they keep saying that?
Just let me know where in San Fran I can go to buy my Volt and I’ll take my drive to the bay area and trade in my piece of shlt 2002 Ford Explorer.
I have to give my 2cents in. There is no reason to have to pick where to sell this car. It should be everywhere. If they did their testing properly then there should be no problem as to “Where” they sell it first for any data reasons. Otherwise, whatdaphuk are we waiting for for so d@amn long?
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:28 am)The 3 best launch markets? Bangor, Maine – International Falls, Minnesota – Fairbanks, Alaska. Surely GM wants feedback from owners in the coldest reaches of the US, to insure a better driving experience for all of us.
And the car owners in these areas would have to keep their cars in the garage at night, to hook up the engine block heater. Since they’re already used to “plugging” their cars in at night, plugging the Volt in would not be a problem – no learning curve.
It’s a shame for those potential Volt owners in CA, NY, and DC, but GM wants to insure a quality driving experience for all of us. Maybe in 2012, or 2013, or…..
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:41 am)#88 Ken
A rotary engine is still an ICE
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:43 am)#91 CaptJackSparrow Says: YOU DON’T NEED A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!! Why the phuk do they keep saying that?
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Right. My feelings exactly.
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:45 am)@Ken 88
Mohler is kind of like EEStore but they actually had prototypes shown and videos. They’re here in Davis CA. The owner also owns the company that makes those noisy exaust pipes called “Supertrap”. There may be a 900K order but each product uses probabky 6 (last I saw) motors or more each.
Still, if he can get the product flying safely, then his his company will be literally flying high….
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:46 am)Volt rollout musings…
Will the current daily driver hang in there long enough? Rollout plan speculations in posts above suggest my Nashville, TN area won’t see any Volt sales for quite awhile.
Interesting fact however – Fisker Automotive plans to set up one of its Karma retailer operations down the road apiece in Huntsville, AL. I’d go that far for an EREV rather than wait years longer…
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:48 am)“were not going to try to go everywhere all at once” In other words, “We want to limit our market so that we can say the Volt failed just like the EV1″ There is not one good reason to limit your market, only bad reasons.
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:49 am)#88 Ken Says: Looks like there is another alternative for the (traditional) ICE that is receiving an increase in attention and orders close to 1Million!
http://www.moller.com/downloads/FM_PR_Receiveorders.pdf
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We’ve discussed rotary engines on this forum before.
Bottom line: Rotary engines are smaller and lighter, but less efficient.
From your link:
Freedom Motors announced today that it has received letters of intent and conditional orders for over 900,000 ($1 Billion) of its Rotapower® rotary engines. The Company’s engine is noted for its high power-to-weight and low emissions, …
Notice how they don’t mention efficiency at all. They do talk about less pollution, but remember that carbon-dioxide emissions are not considered pollutants, not yet anyway.
For a PHEV or EREV, you’re better off with a traditional cylinder based engine, but tuned with a very different Atkinson cycle camshaft:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:59 am)old man #45,
You were way too polite in your response to that stupid, rude, ignorant comment. I only hope we was kidding.
It is obviously a personal preference, but I think country living is way better than city living. I would rather live in a town with a population of 50 than live in a city with a population of millions. But this is a personal preference, clearly.
If I were ever to win the lottery, I would move to Wyoming, buy a few thousand acre ranch, raise horses, and build my house dead center on the property.
Now as for the Volt. A limited roll out is the obvious choice to keep the bugs contained in a small area. But a city or country roll out doesn’t seem to matter to me. I just shrug my shoulders because I know I won’t be in the initial markets. 2012 – 2013 looks like the earliest I will be able to purchase one.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:00 pm)#91 CaptJackSparrow said:
“Earlier reports suggest San Francisco and Washington DC have caught GM’s eye due to plug-in readiness, ”
There they go again confusing people.
YOU DON’T NEED A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!!
Why the phuk do they keep saying that?
============================
The repeated mentioning of this along with saying thing like they need some fancy 12-headed committee to set things in motion certainly does damage the position.
Clearly it is posturing to get the government (and their dollar bills) involved, but c’mon…a few hundred Volts plugged in garages in various cities across the country is nothing that needs any more thought than making sure your breaker can handle plugging in your hair dryer and running a vacuum at the same time. The infrastructure can certainly handle 10,000 Volts (and a few hundred thousand more EVs) charging overnight right now.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:00 pm)#97 teds Says: There is not one good reason to limit your market, only bad reasons.
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Yes, which is why GM is not limiting the market with the Volt.
However, there are very good reasons to target the initial launch (first few months of sales) to a few areas, which is what GM is doing.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:00 pm)Pick an area where
1) there is affluence
2) where a large number of garages exist
3) where the average commuting distances are within the Volt’s 40 mile range
And there you have it.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:08 pm)#100 statik Says: The infrastructure can certainly handle 10,000 Volts (and a few hundred thousand more EVs) charging overnight right now.
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Actually, the current infrastructure can probably handle 30,000,000 plug-ins charging overnight. The problems come when you charge during the day.
From the recent NOVA program “Car of the Future”:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/tm/3507.html?site=22&pl=wmp&rate=hi&ch=5
NARRATOR: It costs four times less to power Frank’s plug-in from the grid than it does to run it on gasoline. But if plug-ins become the car of the future, will there be enough electricity to keep them all running?
DAVID GREENE: Our existing electric utility system could handle tens of millions of plug-in hybrid vehicles if they would be recharged during off-peak times, such as at night.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Have you Guys and Gals seen this
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090324/VIDEOREVIEWS/903249986
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:12 pm)______________________________________________________
EV/EREV Revolution (aka Disruptive Event):
Because 2010 is clearly gearing up to be the starting line of an EV/EREV Revolution, the balance between being cautious in EV/EREV generation 1 & 2 rollouts and being first to market with available inventory will be a challenge for all automakers.
GM is correct in their plan to be disciplined in their 1st generation VOLT rollout so that they can quickly respond to the generation 1 vetting issues that will arise. Statik #21 is probably correct that the 2010 Generation 1 VOLTs will be more along the lines of an extended test/captured fleet. I do agree with other comment posters that GM’s above comment of “need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place” is nonsense.
The issue of manufacturing capital and battery supply meeting EV/EREV manufacturing demands will naturally scale in accordance to demand; there will however be advance strategic positioning involved by car makers on this point which will result in winners and losers determined by the strategic positions taken.
The upcoming EV/EREV revolution will be quick moving and change forever how cars are made and sold. It will be a “disruptive event”. Emerging EV/EREV automakers such as Tesla Motors and Aptera Motors have a very real potential of going from niche plays to mainstream competitors over the course of the next five years. Innovative and determined silicon startups are known for their ability to sneak up on old guard players by changing the rules on how the game is played.
Millions of EV/EREVS will be sold between 2010 and 2015. It gets down to which auto makers will survive the upcoming EV/EREV Revolution. It will be a Disruptive Event!
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Side note to the topic:
First thing this morning GM went into their Warren, Michigan engineering operations and told 100 or so engineers and 60 odd other employees their last day with the company is next tuesday. They all got the standard ‘your out’ package…two weeks for every year + estimated benefit expenses.
/I’m sure some were working on the Volt…but hopefully not too many
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:25 pm)Captainjacksparrow@91 says:
There they go again confusing people.
YOU DON’T NEED A CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE!!!!!
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Ok, maybe they’re just talking about simple things like laws that require apartment managers to install charging meters in their parking spots if the renter requests it for charging a PHEV. At the renters expense possibly, but a requirement one way or the other.
i have three daughters in L.A. all of whom are on the Volt waiting list by the way, who would need such a law since they all rent.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:25 pm)@KUD 104
Hey, thanks for the link. I learned something new from it. The battery is liquid cooled. Gotta add that to my sticky web page….
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:26 pm)“Charging infrastructure” ???? Was he kidding? Did he mean PUBLIC charging infrastructure? There is no need for a (public)charging infrastructure. This is electric car v. 1.5. If the Volt had some sort of quick charge functionality then yes, “charging infrastructure” makes sense. But the Volt doesn’t have quick charge. The only “charging infrastructure” I would think is required is a secure garage where one can close the door, plug in the car when not in use and no one come along and unplug the car or screw around with it and electrocute themselves. (Sorry for the cynicism. I’m sure there are plenty of safeguards but I’ve stopped underestimating how stupid people can be!)
I wonder if this means apartment dwellers are not potential Volt buyers?
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:27 pm)#105 CDAVIS Says: The upcoming EV/EREV revolution will be quick moving and change forever how cars are made and sold. It will be a “disruptive event”. Emerging EV/EREV automakers such as Tesla Motors and Aptera Motors have a very real potential of going from niche plays to mainstream competitors over the course of the next five years. Innovative and determined silicon startups are known for their ability to sneak up on old guard players by changing the rules on how the game is played.
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Yes, EREVs will forever change the car business.
But I’m not sure the analogy of silicon startups applies. For silicon, you have TSMC, which changes the whole business model. If some company had massive car assembly lines that they lease out to different car makers, and if they could build different types of cars on the same assembly line, then you could have a lot of successful car startups. But with more or less dedicated assembly lines, you have big entrenched players, and I don’t see that changing much.
So for EREVs to be successful, I believe the existing big car companies will have to embrace them, and I think they will.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Statik, #106
I any volt engineers lost their job today, I seriously doubt they will be out of work long.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:30 pm)Public charging infrastructure;
Chicken—>egg or egg—>chicken?
If I were GM, I’d like to launch in a place that already had public charging infrastructure. That would let more Volts run in all electric mode. Go 40 miles, charge while you are out, go another 40 miles. The more ICEless, the better the Volt PR. I don’t blame them for trying to make sure their product has the best launch environment.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:35 pm)“We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience. …if people buy a Volt and they don’t plug it in at night or they plug it in only sporadically they’re going to have a very different customer experience…”
OK I get it for the guy with the daughters in LA. I get it that my cousin in LA can afford to buy a Volt, but will never be able to buy a house. Ditto for the “Megacity” that runs from Virginia to NYC. Ditto for Chicago and a few other major metro areas. That said, the vast majority of those of us living in “fly-over land” who can afford a Volt also own our homes, we do not rent. Housing is relatively cheap here, and it is the norm for Volt’s target customers. If this (charging infrastructure) is the criteria for release so be it. But GM will be cutting out the region of the country that is home to its most loyal customers, and for reasons that do not make sense in our context.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:35 pm)@KentT 109
“I wonder if this means apartment dwellers are not potential Volt buyers?”
I think that’s why they have to keep including the “Need the infrastructure…” BS.
I dunno, I have driven past many aprtment complexes, all of which have a covered parking area that has lights under them. Are they just not seeing that all they have to do is provide a a d@mn NEMA 15A socket to the wires and you now have a charge port?
KISS!!!!!
Why is it so hard to see these things? Or are these appartment complexes I see here in the South Ghetto just better maintained? Doubt it.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:42 pm)“We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.”
—- Obviously, garages do NOT exist in every state?!?!?!?! How long are people going to listen to this crap!?!?
“There needs to be some education and training. Obviously if people buy a Volt and they don’t plug it in at night or they plug it in only sporadically they’re going to have a very different customer experience” —- That’s what the waiting list here is for Jon! These people already now about the VOLT. Your buyers are ready to purchase! It’s plans like this one that will help to sell more Insight & Prius vehicles.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:44 pm)To CaptJackSparrow@114:
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Well, realistically the apartment managers are not going to let people dangle jerry-rigged cords from light sockets, or from the laundry room.
Plus, they’re not gonna give they’re electricity away for free.
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:47 pm)#104 KUD said:
Have you Guys and Gals seen this
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090324/VIDEOREVIEWS/903249986
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Thanks for the link. That was great…I had a good laugh actually.
As I was listening to the interviewer from autoweek, I was thinking he wasn’t really on top of his game…but it is priceless that he has that amount of access to GM and went in there and asked Bob Boniface what he thought of the Opel’s take on the design with the Ampera, that it uses some of the same technology/underpinnings…and then asks if the Volt team had some input, lol.
You can feel Bob’s shock at the amount of stupidity he was faced with, as he snickers and tells the guy it was designed alongside the Volt…by them in Michigan.
/any other random dudes want to interview a GM exec? hehe
Mar 24th, 2009 (12:59 pm)@ziggy 116
I’m not saying jerryrig the socket. It’s a simple process to add the conduit to a properly trminated socket junction box from an existing conduit to meet NEC (National Electrical Code) standards. I’m a trailer park maggot and even I know how to do that. Apt mangers can hire a licensed electrician to do it for less than $50/hr. Within that hour one could have at least 4 ports done and what are the possibilities that a complex will have more than 4 Volt Owners? If they can afford a $40K car and live in an apartment then they can pay just a little more for the luxury to “Plugin” and charge in their parking spot.
Then they can charge for the use at whatever rate they can as a slumlord.
The Electrical infrastructure is everywhere.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:06 pm)Is everyone planning on just paying their full sticker price for a Volt? I have never bought a car without getting a great deal, especially new. I’d like a Volt when they come out but, like any car, it depends on the deal I can get. I won’t be afraid to walk out of the showroom if they won’t work with me.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:07 pm)Working in the manufacturing sector, I can tell you that while not as high profile as GM, whenever we launch a new product it is NEVER nationwide…it is in select areas for geographical and environmental considerations. (high altitude like Denver, cold like Nunavut Canada, damp salty like newa thte Atlantic, so we can verify that it WILL operate as we planned, and fix any bugs before national launch,
In all honesty, if GM was not so forward with sharing information about the Volt, you would know OR gove a rats patootie where it was field trialed. you would only know about the second wave launch.
As the germans say..”kvityerbitchin” normally you wouldn’t know anyway. Gm is simply being more transparent and using greater number of units than the norm…
Mitch
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:13 pm)Hello???
Fairbanks, Alaska – International Falls, Minnesota – Bangor, Maine – all have absolutely TONS of garages that are used to keep cars out of the cold. They also plug their cars in at night (block heaters). Can you say “Perfect Test Market”?
Charging infrastructure in place (garages), no learning curve for plugging in at night – Perfect places to launch the Volt, to get feedback on cold weather performance.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:13 pm)@Jerry 119
“Is everyone planning on just paying their full sticker price for a Volt? ”
My guess is there will be a set price. But IMHO, the sticker price doesn’t jackshlt because the price of the car is basically the price + $7500. This is the part that disgusts me because so far all ne vehicles that qualify for the $7500 tax rebate or whatever have increased the price of their product +$7500 therfore jus NULLING the purpose of the incentive. The Volt was originally “Supposed” to be low to mid $30K but now in the High $30K to $40K all after the $7500 rebate was enacted. Dito for Fisker.
Remember, the $7500 will do nothing for the rate of your loan, monthly on the loan OR the loan ammount for the car.
You’re better off using the rebate check you get the following year for Solar Panels on your home which will offset your charge cost of your Volt.
The ICEAge is over, Embrace the VoltAge.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:16 pm)@ mitch 120
“Gm is simply being more transparent and using greater number of units than the norm…”
They have to, it’s not their $$$ they’re running on anymore.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:16 pm)#119 Jerry
Supply and demand affects negotiations. I wouldn’t expect a great deal on a new Volt for a while.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:17 pm)CaptJackSparrow@118
Agreed. That’s pretty much all I meant by “requirement”. Although there are some real bastard apartment managers who want to charge for everything, especially in rent controlled areas. They might insist on meters.
Time for lunch.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:31 pm)#116 ziggy Says: Well, realistically the apartment managers are not … gonna give they’re electricity away for free.
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I’m not so sure. First, they’re already giving electricity away for free, in the form of common lighting for hallways, parking, etc. Second, it would probably cost a more to install smart meters into charging outlets than it’s worth. Third, as plug-ins go mainstream, most apartment/condo dwellers will be plugging in, so it will easier to just average the electricity bill and apply it to the monthly fee, which is what they do now for common lighting.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Hmmm…
Is GM wasting $$$ on old ICE technology?
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/24/twitter-embargo-leak-2010-gmc-terrain-to-manage-30-mpg-highway/
If in fact it IS a GM, it leaves a sour taste when they said the $$$ will be spent on new technology products. This doesn’t look or sound like new technology to me.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:32 pm)#119 Jerry
I hope you are a GM Employee or work for a GM Suppler. That’s about the only way you’ll get a discount beyond any government rebates.
By the time the VOLT hits the showrooms, gas will probably be back over $3.00 per gallon. Reason enough why dealers will not be selling below MSRP for a long time to come.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:35 pm)@Dave G
“Third, as plug-ins go mainstream, most apartment/condo dwellers will be plugging in,”
Yup, I can see the banners now trying to get new occupants…”Free Covered Charge Port for your Plugin”.
That might be a + for them. At least it would gurantee that the potential occupant has some $$$ to spend.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:38 pm)All I an say, GM, is that if you need someone in central Mississippi to buy one, there are a number of large Chevrolet dealers in our area and I would be happy to purchase a Volt from any of them. I am quite willing and ready to keep detail records and communicate with both Chevrolet dealers or corporate on a daily basis if necessary. I have the money and am ready to take possession. I would even like to drive one of the Volt proto-types. Give me a call GM. Lyle has my address, phone number and email address in the GM-VOLT.COM data base.
Good article, Lyle. Looks like you will have an opportunity to purchase one of these babies, Lyle. Good luck. If anybody deserves it — need I say more?
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:41 pm)#122 CaptJackSparrow,
GM said the Volt will be priced in the mid-30s,
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/17/car-and-driver-on-the-volt-tens-of-thousands-in-first-year-generation-two-after-5-years/
so figure around $29,000 after the tax credit.
Without the tax credit, GM couldn’t sell the Volt for $29,000 and make money today. But in 5 years, the cost of the battery and other components will have come down to the point where GM can make money at that price.
That’s the whole point of tax credits. They increase the sales volume so that the natural price comes down, at which time the tax credits are no longer needed. This is how it worked with the Prius. This is how it will work with the Volt.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:50 pm)…continued from #51:
7: lots of garages in the Atlanta area (though in town itself, less so)
8: lots of GM dealers, even post Bill Heard
9: lots of 40-mile avg commute opportunities
10: lots of income, esp. northern suburbs
(and don’t forget point 6)
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:53 pm)@106 Statik
They are actually adding resources to the Volt project, so I doubt any Volt specific tech’s got the axe.
I’m still waiting to hear the #’s on the $20K cash + $25K voucher buyout. They’ll prob use the saved cash to hire new blue collars for much less wages to work on the Volt line.
Mar 24th, 2009 (1:58 pm)@ Dave G 131
“That’s the whole point of tax credits. They increase the sales volume so that the natural price comes down, at which time the tax credits are no longer needed.”
But where did the funds for this Tax credit come from?
Yup, you and I/Us.
Who are we trying fool here? The “Natural Price” is whatever the price – $7500. You know as well as I that when the announcement of the $7500 credit came out the “Low 30K…” went to “Mid 30K…”, funny how that closely translates to roughly $7500. It just bothers me that manufacturers inflate their price tag like that when incentives like this are passed. Who’s it really helping? Not the consumers.
Also yes, true that battery prices will go down but we as consumers will not see the price drop. GM will keep is as a lrger profit margin.
OK, off to lunch to calm don from my rant on the tax thingy and the price. Whatever the price, I honestly will still buy the volt, not happy with the price I will buy nonethe less.
Off to lunch for Sushi and Saki Bombs…….
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:04 pm)Vancouver,BC Canada ?? 2010 Olympics , Prius taxi, green BC
Still not enough reasons for Vancouver ?
I am planning to dial the Vancouver auto show and make sure volt or imiev is there else they lost 2 tickets – mine and my wife’s ( for kid its free )
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:07 pm)Cost = $1,980
Mileage = 55MPG
Tata Motors looks to sell Nano in US
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1cac36ce-17d6-11de-8c9d-0000779fd2ac.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:13 pm)captain jack, I like the symmetry in your suggestion!.”Remember, the $7500 will do nothing for the rate of your loan, monthly on the loan OR the loan ammount for the car.
You’re better off using the rebate check you get the following year for Solar Panels on your home which will offset your charge cost of your Volt.”
Invest $75oo, maybe a little less after solar rebates, in solar panels, add zero stress to the grid. Works in the South and Southwest. Buck and a half/day to drive the 40 miles.
to whom it may concern, today is the twenty year anniversary of Exxon Valdez disaster. (Three Mile Island nuclear facility melted down in 1979, Chernobyl in 1986.) thanks
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:15 pm)#40 Johnny Mac says
New York better be one of the selected regions.
San Francisco and Portland next.
Basically, ONLY URBAN AREAS.
No country trash. Most country folk would not have a clue how to correctly operate an EV anyhow.
——————————————————
Definitely true. Down here in the countryside of NC we chew straws , talk slow, hardly ever wear shoes, and spend most of our time fishing in the creek. Not a bad life.
There is a little racing cars but we don’t admit to it.
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:16 pm)Dave G (#110):
“If some company had massive car assembly lines that they lease out to different car makers, and if they could build different types of cars on the same assembly line, then you could have a lot of successful car startups. But with more or less dedicated assembly lines, you have big entrenched players, and I don’t see that changing much.”
Henry Ford’s (dedicated to the Model T) assembly line gave birth to the automobile business as we know it. Part of me is thinking that we’re all just whistling past the graveyard here, having our last fun before March 31st. If the worst does happen, it shows that what we need is a new manufacturing paradigm of similar magnitude.
Could manufacturing become so flexible and automated, that it need not be isolated to a particular industry? My mind’s eye imagines an extrapolation of a robotic assembly station with far more sophistication than anything currently being used. Car companies would be customers of such a manufacturing entity, along with appliance manufacturers, engineering companies, etc. One market segment sag? A different kind of product could be manufactured instead.
Short of that, I have no idea what the next significant manufacturing paradigm could be — in the next few years, anyway. I read “Engines of Creation” by Eric Drexler when it came out, there’s a pretty amazing vision of what might be possible for a smallish company once bulk processing of materials can be accomplished via nanotechnology. Don’t hold your breath waiting for it, though.
Imagine a website like this, only with the ability to have a finished product result directly from it’s discussions; without necessarily waiting on an “entrenched player.”
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:21 pm)#49 Dave G says “What if you buy it D.C. and it breaks down in Colorado? The Denver dealership’s service technicians won’t be trained yet, so you’ll have to tow it back to D.C. to get it fixed”
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Well down here in the stix of NC I guess we’ll just have to ask the NASCAR guy to bring it back in his trailer. After all, you don’t drive them NASCARs on the hiway.
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:22 pm)#123 Capt Jack
it was this way before the assist..just to clarify
..and you just bespoke of Why it WILL hit the political “green sectors”..its gubermint money..and while that means its your money..they are not out to impress you (or I) they need green street cred from Stars, and politicians, and big $$ folks interested in looking enviro friendly..
so while your trailer park, or my backwoods farm may be a real good test area, it garners no politico feed or public exposure (last time I checked the paparatzi was NOT in my cow pasture…)
So love it, hate it..it goes to the big wigs..not us joes..we are later. 2011
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:25 pm)#54 Dave G says But after the initial launch, probably very early in 2011, GM will start to debut the Volt in many other metro areas. Later in 2011, most metro areas will probably be covered, and they will start start shipping the next model year Volt to most Chevy dealerships within North America.
—————–
You say this based on what information?
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:26 pm)142
I agree with Dave, being in manufacturing..that is the NORMAL proceedure.. GM is basically giving the field trial units as initial production..versus the mass release as initial production…
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:31 pm)#136 k-dawg said:
Cost = $1,980
Mileage = 55MPG
Tata Motors looks to sell Nano in US
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1cac36ce-17d6-11de-8c9d-0000779fd2ac.html?ftcamp=rss&nclick_check=1
==========================
Tata probably won’t make it. Before the world fell apart they bought Land Rover and Japuar, now the residual from the bridge loans is coming due in June…to the tune of 2 billion.
The plan (before the super ugly strike/plant relocation) was to take really high deposit amounts (like the full price, lol) to cross finance/service over the debt (and then raise working capital) at a much more reasonable rates, up to 500,000 deposits worth at $2,000+ a pop…then churn out 300,000 or so a year.
Now with the relocation problems, that infrastructure won’t be up until early 2010..Tata can only make about 50,000 this year. The question is, will someone plunk down almost full price to buy a car that might not be made for 2-3 years…while knowing that Tata is on the ropes?
At the end of Q4 2008, Tata only had 100 million dollars left in the bank. Besides this 2 billion deadline…if all the money from the first 500,000 orders paid in full goes to servicing…how are they paying to build these cars? And what about Land Rover and Jaguar…are they making money these days…or losing it? (BNP Paribas estimates that the annual lose this year wil be about 500 million) Additionally Tata puts its working capital needs at a additional 1.4 billion.
Short term needs: 3.4 billion +ex-items/loses
Cash in bank: 100 million
12 month capacity production: 50,000 vehicles @ $2,000
Outlook? They are leveraged like a US insurer, hehe. They need a bailout/buyout/takeover to surivivee.
/Whats the margin on a $2,000 car these days anywhoo?
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:33 pm)#67 statik says of GM’s limited volume of cars to rollout:
A) They don’t have the money to back the program the way it needs to be…or at least they way they foresaw it two years ago
B) They have no way to make/get batteries
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These are the core problems that likely lie behind the garbled language GM is speaking. GM just will not have very many Volts for a long time to come. At the same time, no Chevy dealer is going to pay for a lot of special test equipment and service training to service sales of 1 car a quarter. So GM has to concentrate sales in a few dealers, but they have to cook up a rationale, as they have done.
It also is convenient to GM if these few dealers are close together, as that helps advertising and visibility. For a political car, the right place is DC. Somewhere in CA is good for the same reason.
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:37 pm)The volt will fail 40,000?! Who are you targeting BMW/MERCEDEZ/LEXUS owners? Are they really going to buy a car which is comparable to a $14,000 car for $40,000 because it’s an electric? Bye bye GM
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:52 pm)” We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.
There needs to be some education and training. Obviously if people buy a Volt and they don’t plug it in at night or they plug it in only sporadically they’re going to have a very different customer experience and probably not be as completely satisfied with the Volt as they would if they were plugging it in each and every night and using it exactly they was it was intended, recognizing that electricity was meant to be used as its primary fuel, not the small gas engine on board that was intended to be its range extender.”
__________________________________________________________________________________
This whole comment smells like B.S. to me.
I’m guessing “waiting on infrastructure” means:
a. delay tactics
b. sub-par performance after battery depletion
c. both a and b
After all, if you forget to plug it in you’ve got a decent performing 50 mpg sedan, . . . .right? Plus, what idiot would buy a volt and then not realize he should plug it in on a regular basis when he gets home? – - – - puh leeeze.
Mar 24th, 2009 (2:56 pm)#146 what a poor name
Yes they are targeting those buyers as well as those who want to do their part to get us and the rest of the world off oil for transportation. Some of us want to help the planet and our country, others remember the strangle hold big oil had on us and will again apply to us. However I think that the binding fact that hold us together is “the electric car is the future” and we want to do our part to ensure that future.
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:25 pm)#147
“Plus, what idiot would buy a volt and then not realize he should plug it in on a regular basis when he gets home? ”
I work in manufacturing and we have a saying…(Its a poster onour engineering dept wall)
“You can NEVER make some thing Idiot proof…they are always building better idiots”
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:26 pm)i think 146 = charlie h
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:27 pm)#139 Jackson:
March 31 indeed. I think that we are all just talking to ourselves until we see if anything comes out of that magic date – next Tuesday, BTW. Is there going to be enough left of GM to make this all reality? Tune in next Tuesday for another thrilling episode.
#144 statik:
Sounds kind of familiar somehow. Does this mean that Tata won’t be buying Hummer any time soon? Oh dear.
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:35 pm)#128 CorvetteGuy
“I hope you are a GM Employee or work for a GM Suppler. That’s about the only way you’ll get a discount beyond any government rebates.
By the time the VOLT hits the showrooms, gas will probably be back over $3.00 per gallon. Reason enough why dealers will not be selling below MSRP for a long time to come.”
If thats the way they play it I won’t be getting a Volt then. I refuse to pay MSRP for any car no matter what it is. I can wait.
As far as the rebate. The $7,500 has nothing to do with the price of the car, thats between you and the government. I hope they don’t try to act like its GM giving you a discount.
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:39 pm)To RB@138 who says:
Down here in the countryside of NC we chew straws , talk slow, hardly ever wear shoes, and spend most of our time fishing in the creek. Not a bad life. There is a little racing cars but we don’t admit to it.
——————————————————————————
and we say grace
and we say ma’am
if ya ain’t inta that
we don’t give a damn.
we can skin a buck
and run a trout line
and a county boy can survive…
From a Hank Willians Jr. song
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:46 pm)I drive 3 miles to work, 3 miles back to my home. Then maybe about 10 miles for running here and there so maybe 16 – 30 miles per day. Would I need to plug the Volt if I only drive 20 miles per day?
Also, for my employees I would gladly put a few extension cords out into the parking lot. But I am in West Michigan and it get’s pretty cold and snowy in the winter and warm in the summer. I am real curious how this thing is going to go thru the snow and ice. How about an AWD Volt.
What the towing capacity? Can it pull a SeaDoo? Just kidding about the towing.
PS. I want one! I am in the auto industry and I think GM owes me money. I would be more than happy to barter for one.
Mar 24th, 2009 (3:48 pm)#146 voltfail Says: Are they really going to buy a car which is comparable to a $14,000 car for $40,000 because it’s an electric?
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No, they are going to buy a car for $29,000 (price of Volt after tax credits) that is comparable to a $16,000 car (Chevy Cobalt/Cruze) because:
• it’s electric
• it has a gas engine range extender
• it has better acceleration
• it’s a hassle going to the gas station every week
• it has a lot of interior and exterior refinements
• it runs near silent
• it helps our national security, economy, and the environment
• it saves a lot of money on fuel
• it’s cool
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:00 pm)#149 mitch Says: “You can NEVER make something idiot proof…they are always building better idiots”
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I like that! Thanks.
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:00 pm)#153 ziggy quotes Hank Williams Jr’s lyrics
—————–
Great song, great singer. Thanks for post.
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:21 pm)Fairbanks, Alaska – International Falls, Minnesota – Bangor, Maine – all have absolutely TONS of garages that are used to keep cars out of the cold.
___________________________
No, it needs to be a northern metro area, like Minneapolis/St.Paul, where there’s also a long winter commute and parking outside all day without an outlet available.
As for garages, they’re still cold… well below freezing, which is the Li-Ion threshold. Mine only gets up to 20°F during the dead winter.
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:30 pm)My guess is that the concern about education is more about dealers than customers. I really do think that someone paying a big premium for a car will figure out that they need to plug it in.
On the other hand if you have a problem and take it to your friendly Chevy dealer and the service department doesn’t have a clue, your “experience” might indeed be less than optimal. Not to mention what the salesperson might say …
Pricing is also an issue. Nothing would kill the green buzz like dealers jacking prices up.
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:36 pm)MarkinWI
So maybe Oshkosh or Omaha will be the target areas? Who knows? These are the least thought out most selfish, self centered comments I’ve seen here in a while. Silly comments like ” infrastructure #@$#^&$@#^ infrastructure just release it everywhere all at %#YIY once, in the same post as smart comments like, “I wonder if this means apartment dwellers are not potential Volt buyers?” Well I hope that by reading some of the well thought out comments here that people can be more informed and in the future can take their unfounded fears and frustrations out on their pets and coworkers instead of dumping them here.
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:40 pm)CorvetteGuy
Did you say at one time that your shop was keeping their own Volt List?
Mar 24th, 2009 (4:54 pm)Keep the Volt a West Coast purchase only !
We are the leaders in green tech. The rest of this country is total environmental waste area, they do not deserve a vehicle like this. The Volt was made for Californians. We got the GM EV-1 and will get our fair share (preferably 100%) of Volts. Beyond our borders lies a true wasteland, people that have done their best to run this country into the ground.
Only California knows how to correctly apply EV technology in the USA. The other 49 wannabe states can shove it where the sun don’t shine !
Mar 24th, 2009 (5:00 pm)Orange County, California. Plenty of stable high priced homes and multiple car garages with modern electric service for quality 240 volt charging. Downtown Brea featured recharging stations during the EV-1 years. Don’t forget Innovations at Disneyland. Get a VOLT there as soon as possible!
One thing for sure. California has the majority of drivers who leased an EV-1 and have been waiting to own a VOLT. Southern California is a must (and we need to keep our air quality clean.) The South Coast Air Quality Management District needs the VOLT on day one! http://www.aqmd.gov/
Mar 24th, 2009 (5:21 pm)#151 noel park says
#144 statik (re Tata Motors), Sounds kind of familiar somehow. Does this mean that Tata won’t be buying Hummer any time soon? Oh dear.
=======================
You can count on me to present the clouds of doom around practically any and all subjects, lol.
That rumor about them buying HUMMER was a doozy though…I don’t even know how that got started. After they bought LR and Jag they were leveraged like nobody’s business.
Mar 24th, 2009 (5:47 pm)#67 Statik (me)
Since I just happened to have been making a list of companys with a EV battery footprint ie) making their own batteries and who also had a real presence on the ground earlier in the thread, I thought I would add one more.
Honda just announced today it was getting into the battery making business…with GS Yuasa (who seems to be positioning itself as a big player, as they also have a major deal with Mitsu):
The colaboration will be called Blue Energy Ltd., and comes into existence April 1st. (split is 51% GS Yuasa, 49% Honda)
Here is the press release from Honda:
http://world.honda.com/news/2009/c090324GS-Yuasa-and-Honda/
We now have the following making their own lithium packs (ranked by size/progress:
1.) Mitsu/GS Yuasa – in production, 10,000 capacity 2009-20,000 in 2010
2.) Toyota/Panasonic – under construction, early 2010
3.) Nissan/NEC – testing/construction, production Q4 2009
4.) Honda/GS Yuasa – just formed
It would seem the Japanese are either more serious about the tech, or at least want to control it and eliminate the middle man, along with speeding the ramp up more quickly.
Status of BIg 2.451 battery plans:
Ford-contract with Johnson Controls/Saft to produce at least 5,000 packs in 2012
Status: preliminary construction in France
GM-dealer contract with LG Chem, no production numbers confirmed yet or quanitities
Status: hiatus (?) -perhaps waiting on decisions and/or cash
Chrysler-”strategic relationship with” A123
Status: A123 has applied for a 1.9 billion dollar loan from the DOE, so I suspect that and Chrysler’s bailout money is the deciding factor here
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:00 pm)As of September 2008, the combined overnight surplus generation of the US (all sources of generation) can overnight recharge
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158 million Volts.
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Source, September 2008 Renewable Energy Roundup in Fredericksburg TX.
I was a guest speaker (regarding small hybrid proactive service needs, which content I’ve mentioned here), along with the Management of the City of Austin Energy.
There are currently-pending applicants (to install more wind generators) to approximately double the Wind Generation of Texas in the next several years, which will make Texas have the most overnight wind capacity, as I understand the projections, by almost 200% over any other State. Overnight wind capacity is at its peak here, and, the finest thing for this wind generation is to recharge the Voltec technologies.
While this is an estimate, it reflects the spirit of environment which Austin and Texas have, and, Voltec technologies form the most important part of this relentless drive, it seems to me.
Dan Petit Austin TX.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:27 pm)#165 statik on GS-Yuasa
———–
Do you understand their relationship with Mitsu? I had thought they were more or less a captive.
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:32 pm)*****************************************************
158 million Volts.
*****************************************************
Be sure to wear rubber soled shoes …
Mar 24th, 2009 (7:52 pm)Set “Launch Coordinates ” to 60 miles southeast of L.A. – that’s where the largest population of daily commuters to Los Angeles and Orange County live. If GM needs real-world testing, send them VOLTs our way!
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:09 pm)“Earlier reports suggest San Francisco and Washington DC have caught GM’s eye due to plug-in readiness”
Hmmm, I’ve had plugs lining both walls of my garage for years. I’ve been “Plug in Ready” for decades.
“There needs to be some education and training. Obviously if people buy a Volt and they don’t plug it in at night or they plug it in only sporadically”
I doubt the first 30,000 buyers are going to be complete retards when it comes to the concept behind a plug in hybrid, and being confused as to why they are using gas when they are not plugging it in.
The public is dumb, but I doubt they are THAT retarded.
Mar 24th, 2009 (8:33 pm)I hope they will stop talking about charging infrastructure. I see where they’re coming from and understand its importance in the long term viability of EREV cars, but right now all they will do is confuse people. Sure being able to charge in more places will help reduce gas usage, but right now home charging is surely good enough to start off. They just need to harp on the simple, 120V outlet and plug line. People need to see this as SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE. The complexities of charging at work, etc. can come later, or for those who want to deal with it (like my fellow silicon valleyers).
PS. LA is best, although I may be biased since I will soon be moving there. Californians, despite having the most inept government in history, still have greater readiness for EVs than elsewhere.
Mar 24th, 2009 (9:09 pm)Somehow I figured Kansas would be low on the list. But my commute is almost exactly 40 miles so I would put a full charge on it every night. I am a project engineer for Beechcraft and could give GM anything they wanted in a report including four actual seasons. Energy out here is mostly coal and nuclear (wind is increasing), using the grid at night is a big boost. Just not much political clout out here other than the fact we buy mostly american and loyalty in this day and age ought to count for something.
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:16 pm)I live in Louisiana. I’m ready to plunk down $40K for a Volt, and I have to go all the way to California or D.C. to get it? I’m on the list, but if that’s the situation, I may as well get another Prius & keep the extra $10K for gas. Please, someone tell me that they won’t just pick the East & West coasts for this!
Mar 24th, 2009 (10:17 pm)BTW, we have electricity AND proper electrical sockets here, too!
Mar 24th, 2009 (11:18 pm)That makes perfect sense!!
It sounds as though GM is controlling who it’s going to sell to so that if something does go wrong, they’ll have a very quick response to be able to fix it, while not having a huge mess on their hands and everyone thinking that GM’s Volt failed.
Mar 25th, 2009 (12:25 am)This was probably already mentioned (no, I didn’t read all 175 posts) but you already have 50,000 well informed drivers right here. Most of us will be willing to go through a good deal of inconvenience just to have this car. Not only that, we already have a great communication tool in which to share stories, trails and tribulations – http://www.GM-Volt.com
Just a thought… No, I don’t expect anyone to read down this far.
Mar 25th, 2009 (12:25 am)161 Jeff H
Our dealership is starting an interest list. Nowhere near as big as Lyle’s list here, but we think anyone on his list will have to take delivery from their local Chevy store. (unless Lyle has his own dealership and we don’t know about it yet
http://www.allnewchevyvolt.com
Mar 25th, 2009 (1:19 am)______________________________________________________
#110 Dave G Said:
But I’m not sure the analogy of silicon startups applies. For silicon, you have TSMC, which changes the whole business model. If some company had massive car assembly lines that they lease out to different car makers, and if they could build different types of cars on the same assembly line, then you could have a lot of successful car startups. But with more or less dedicated assembly lines, you have big entrenched players, and I don’t see that changing much.
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Dave G,
I believe that Car manufacturing will increasingly go the way of your TSMC reference. Car manufacturing is becoming less horizontally captured and more vertically specialized on a component by component basis. Existing car manufacturing plants that have a captive market will increasingly compete to provide manufacturing component services for other car makers in order to lower the cost of their captured manufacturing. Also specialized car manufacturing plants without a captured market will increasingly proliferate. An example of an emerging EV/EREV car company “TSMCing” production is Fisker Automotive utilizing the GM Ecotec 2.0L as the Fisker Karma range extender and utilizing Valmet Automotive for engineering and manufacturing/assembly.
The iPhone was first announced in January 2008 and became the best selling cell phone in the 3rd quarter of 2008. Apple Computer has no cell phone manufacturing plant. In January 2008, not a single traditional wireless phone executive would have believed that possible.
http://www.valmet-automotive.com/automotive/bulletin.nsf/PEBD/5979AF477BFC7C95C2257487001AE95E?opendocument
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/fisker-automoti.html
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Elecric Cars + Nuclear Energy = American Energy Independence!
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Mar 25th, 2009 (1:40 am)Need I remind everyone that the Volt will probably cost $40k, a
price most people cannot pay for a new car. Fuel cell cars are
the future, not battery electric vehicles. Even if 10k PSI hydrogen tanks dominate, I don’t think they will, Linde has come out with a new more efficient compressor. Fuel cell cars, ones that don’t reform hydrocarbons, are 100% clean all the time. With the range
starting at 200 miles and going upwards to 500 miles in an SUV, fuel cell cars are more practical than hybrids. Something will be accomplished when a car is made for the masses that significantly cuts carbon emissions over traditional vehicles. GM should be making money on light hybrids and continue to develop the Volt
until the cost comes down to what the average person can pay.
The GM Volt hydrogen is the future, just build it.
Mar 25th, 2009 (1:44 am)______________________________________________________
#178 CDAVIS woops typo correcton:
“The iPhone was first announced in January 2008″
should read
“The iPhone was first announced in January 2007″
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Mar 25th, 2009 (5:45 am)The Volt doesn’t require a charging infrastructure! That’s the whole point of this EV! God!
Mar 25th, 2009 (7:52 am)>>>>We need to make sure that all of the charging infrastructure is in place so that all people have a really good customer experience.
>>>>
Yes, make sure everyone has a $10 extension cord.. and knows how to plug it right.. remember male-female and viceversa.. this is no place for gayness
Mar 25th, 2009 (9:13 am)Wait a minute, what happened to GM saying they were going to use Lyle’s waiting list as a starting point. Does that mean if someone in Minnesota happened to be the second person to sign up on the list and GM is talking about releasing in specific areas first that this person who has been following the Volt that long is going to be bypassed?
Mar 25th, 2009 (9:24 am)#182 Herm Says: Yes, make sure everyone has a $10 extension cord.. and knows how to plug it right.. remember male-female and viceversa.. this is no place for gayness
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A $10 extension cord won’t work, at least not by itself. You need that special white-handled proprietary plug to charge the Volt. God knows how much that costs if you lose it, or want a spare for a different location.
Mar 25th, 2009 (11:26 am)Dateline – 25 March 2009; Here ye, here ye it is now proclaimed
“Fuel cell cars are
the future, not battery electric vehicles.” Michael Robinson #179
Ok folks, shows over, you can all go home now!!!!
Mar 25th, 2009 (1:17 pm)Dave G #8 says:
“if plug-ins go mass market, our grid capacity won’t support day-time charging – not even close.
So this leaves overnight charging in your garage as the only viable option.
Why does GM keep bringing up this “charging infrastructure”? What is it?”
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Toyota hit 1 million hybrids only after about 8 years, and there’s not yet even one PHEV/EREV/REEV available from any factory to the consumer in the U.S. I suspect that’s going to start changing over the next few years, but I don’t think we’re going to see 100,000 new PHEVs/EREVs/REEVs sold annually in the U.S. for some time. Might not be another 5-10 years. In large part because the carmakers probably can’t meet the demand so they’ll just build and sell all they can.
In late 2010, you’re absolutely correct that a nationwide charging network isn’t going to be necessary for the Volt and other similar vehicles to succeed. However, plans need to be made to build a nationwide charging network for plugins to thrive and survive. Better chargers, better batteries, or whatever will need to evolve because Americans likely won’t sit for even a 2 hour re-charge, particulary if a 20 minute hydrogen recharge with an Equinox causes gripping. Standardization of the charging ports and/or adaptors to accomodate all different types of plugins. 110, 220 and hopeful 440 connections.
Gonna have to start talking about a charging infrastructure now for when we WILL need one.