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	<title>Comments on: GM Volt Battery Update</title>
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	<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/</link>
	<description>Real-time news, information, and discussion about the Chevrolet Volt.</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Robinson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/#comment-101885</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 01:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1575#comment-101885</guid>
		<description>Lithium will become very expensive as demand for it increases.

Lithium extraction involves lining salt pools with PVC plastics
which are a source of pollution.

There&#039;s no way to speed up the evaporation of salt water to
increase Lithium production, no practical way.

Lithium is only the 33rd most abundant element on the Earth 
and deposits are mostly limited to China and Bolivia.

We won&#039;t make it more than 10 years before the Lithium shortage
hits.

Hern, there is no certainty of a 10 fold improvement in Lithium ION
battery technology.

Again Hern, study hydrogen as an energy carrier more closely before you dismiss the concept of reforming ethanol and methane.

Salt water can be desalinized and some of it converted to hydrogen
very efficiently using magnets and membranes.  There are projects
to reform the manure from Tennessee thoroughbreds into hydrogen.
There are a number of feed lots that produce a fair amount of manure that can be used as a methane source.  Check out the
hydrogencarsnow site before you dismiss hydrogen as being
unproduceable in significant quantities.

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com

http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/fallacy-of-energy-efficiency-argument-against-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-plug-in-battery-advocates/

That battery developments mentioned in this particular blog won&#039;t 
extend the range of the Volt is discouraging.  There is no 
guarantee that an advancement will match a need.  What are needed are light batteries that can hold killowatts of power in 
a rough environment over a large temperature scale in a 
small odd shaped space.  I place my bet on fuel cell cars
being the most practical in the long run with PHEV&#039;s and BEV&#039;s sinking back into the obscurity that has characterized them for 
100 years.  With the elimination of platinum and the replacement
of it by nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes, fuel cells that
are currently 10x what people will pay for them are going to drop 
significantly in price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lithium will become very expensive as demand for it increases.</p>
<p>Lithium extraction involves lining salt pools with PVC plastics<br />
which are a source of pollution.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no way to speed up the evaporation of salt water to<br />
increase Lithium production, no practical way.</p>
<p>Lithium is only the 33rd most abundant element on the Earth<br />
and deposits are mostly limited to China and Bolivia.</p>
<p>We won&#8217;t make it more than 10 years before the Lithium shortage<br />
hits.</p>
<p>Hern, there is no certainty of a 10 fold improvement in Lithium ION<br />
battery technology.</p>
<p>Again Hern, study hydrogen as an energy carrier more closely before you dismiss the concept of reforming ethanol and methane.</p>
<p>Salt water can be desalinized and some of it converted to hydrogen<br />
very efficiently using magnets and membranes.  There are projects<br />
to reform the manure from Tennessee thoroughbreds into hydrogen.<br />
There are a number of feed lots that produce a fair amount of manure that can be used as a methane source.  Check out the<br />
hydrogencarsnow site before you dismiss hydrogen as being<br />
unproduceable in significant quantities.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com</a></p>
<p><a href="http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/fallacy-of-energy-efficiency-argument-against-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-plug-in-battery-advocates/" rel="nofollow">http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/fallacy-of-energy-efficiency-argument-against-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-plug-in-battery-advocates/</a></p>
<p>That battery developments mentioned in this particular blog won&#8217;t<br />
extend the range of the Volt is discouraging.  There is no<br />
guarantee that an advancement will match a need.  What are needed are light batteries that can hold killowatts of power in<br />
a rough environment over a large temperature scale in a<br />
small odd shaped space.  I place my bet on fuel cell cars<br />
being the most practical in the long run with PHEV&#8217;s and BEV&#8217;s sinking back into the obscurity that has characterized them for<br />
100 years.  With the elimination of platinum and the replacement<br />
of it by nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes, fuel cells that<br />
are currently 10x what people will pay for them are going to drop<br />
significantly in price.</p>
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		<title>By: Herm</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/#comment-101842</link>
		<dc:creator>Herm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1575#comment-101842</guid>
		<description>1. will not do anything to extend a volts range
2. there is no lithium shortage, no replacement is needed
3. 20 year life for a fusion reactor is not practical, nukes now have a 60 year life.. and fusion reactors will probably be very expensive so you also want them to last at least as long.. in reality nukes are pretty cheap now, but the paperwork is a killer.
4. pebble bed nukes hydrogen is good, there is a lot of nuclear fuel, way more than 100 years supply... look up breeder reactor.
5. oil will keep going up, it is getting harder to extract.. we will never run out of it for that reason.
6. ethanol reformers and fuel cells are good, but please be practical.
7. there will be a 10 fold improvement in battery performance, you can count on it.
8. what happened to 8?
9. superconducting power lines cooled with hydrogen?, nah.. they use liquid nitrogen for that now.. much simpler and works just as well.
10. I guess fuel cells will continue to improve..so will batteries. Perhaps faster</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. will not do anything to extend a volts range<br />
2. there is no lithium shortage, no replacement is needed<br />
3. 20 year life for a fusion reactor is not practical, nukes now have a 60 year life.. and fusion reactors will probably be very expensive so you also want them to last at least as long.. in reality nukes are pretty cheap now, but the paperwork is a killer.<br />
4. pebble bed nukes hydrogen is good, there is a lot of nuclear fuel, way more than 100 years supply&#8230; look up breeder reactor.<br />
5. oil will keep going up, it is getting harder to extract.. we will never run out of it for that reason.<br />
6. ethanol reformers and fuel cells are good, but please be practical.<br />
7. there will be a 10 fold improvement in battery performance, you can count on it.<br />
8. what happened to 8?<br />
9. superconducting power lines cooled with hydrogen?, nah.. they use liquid nitrogen for that now.. much simpler and works just as well.<br />
10. I guess fuel cells will continue to improve..so will batteries. Perhaps faster</p>
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		<title>By: Herm</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/#comment-101841</link>
		<dc:creator>Herm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1575#comment-101841</guid>
		<description>You are wrong.. to achieve fast charging the battery must not heat up while you charge it, and if the battery does not heat up charging usually it will not heat up while discharging also..then you get long life.

This is the reason GM is not fully charging or discharging the battery, most of the heating occurs when the battery is nearly empty or nearly full.. so perhaps we can use more of the cells capacity with a fast charging cell. The lithium manganese cell GM is using is not the best now, just what is in high production now... and apparently good enough.


.............................................

Correct me if I’m wrong, but fast charging and battery lifetime
are in opposite directions of each other. What I’m saying is,
you can’t optimize a battery for maximum lifetime and quick
charging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are wrong.. to achieve fast charging the battery must not heat up while you charge it, and if the battery does not heat up charging usually it will not heat up while discharging also..then you get long life.</p>
<p>This is the reason GM is not fully charging or discharging the battery, most of the heating occurs when the battery is nearly empty or nearly full.. so perhaps we can use more of the cells capacity with a fast charging cell. The lithium manganese cell GM is using is not the best now, just what is in high production now&#8230; and apparently good enough.</p>
<p>&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>Correct me if I’m wrong, but fast charging and battery lifetime<br />
are in opposite directions of each other. What I’m saying is,<br />
you can’t optimize a battery for maximum lifetime and quick<br />
charging.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Robinson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/#comment-101753</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 07:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1575#comment-101753</guid>
		<description>Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but fast charging and battery lifetime
are in opposite directions of each other.  What I&#039;m saying is,
you can&#039;t optimize a battery for maximum lifetime and quick
charging.  Again, correct me if I&#039;m wrong, the plan for 
the Volt is to have people plug it in at night.  Am I wrong to
think that the Volt battery will take hours, not minutes, to
recharge fully?  What about people who park on the street,
how will they plug in at night?  How about people who park
in large parking structures that don&#039;t have electrical outlets?

Here are breakthroughs, ones that are not likely to happen, 
which I would like to see:

1) High quality solar panels drop substantially in price and 
    GM announces that the roof of the Volt will be a solar 
    collector (not a big deal in Oregon with our liquid sunshine).

2) A replacement is found for Lithium that is available within
    U.S. borders in large quantity.  This replacement is
    better than Lithium and it&#039;s source is not environmentally
    sensitive.

3) A fusion reactor is built that produces more energy than 
    it&#039;s operators put into it and this fusion reactor has a 
    20 year operational life span.

4) The public accepts pebble bed nuclear reactors and nuclear to 
    hydrogen materializes.  The problem with fission is that it is
    only a 100 year solution, but carbon wise and heavy metals
    wise it is cleaner than burning coal.  There is the problem that
    you have to mine for uranium, but it is necessary to mine for
    a lot of resources including Lithium. 

5) The price of oil spikes up again forcing a more aggressive
     move to alternative fuels such as: hydrogen, biodiesel, 
     cellulosic ethanol, etcetera.  Of all of these options, 
     hydrogen gets the most attention.

6) The Chevy Volt hydrogen is redesigned to reform hydranol
     extending it&#039;s range and it is mass produced.

7)  GM abandons the use of platinum in it&#039;s fuel cell prototypes.

8)  Very unlikely, there is a tenfold improvement in energy density
     for Lithium ION batteries and the size of the Volt&#039;s battery is
     substantially reduced.

9) Hydrogen cooled high voltage power lines become common
     making both hydrogen and electricity more widely available.

10) Fuel cells continue to output more and more power for the 
       same amount of hydrogen that today&#039;s fuel cells use.  The
       talk of fuel cell cars gives way to fuel cell trucks and sport
       utility vehicles.  The penetration of fuel cell vehicles passes
       25% of all driven vehicles.

Some of these 10 things should have happened already, 6,7, and
9 for example.  The first four, 1-4, are unrealistic and will probably
never happen.  Number 10 on the list is likely to happen judging
from the history of fuel cell cars.  They have been getting more and
more powerful where the fuel cell stack has been taking up less and
less space.  Number 8, if it happens, could change whether hydrogen fuel cell cars or chemical battery cars dominate in the future.  Number 8 is extremely unlikely as there has been a LOT
of development on the Lithium ION battery chemistry.  Aside from
these 10 things, platinum in fuel cells can be replaced now with
nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes.  Compressed hydrogen
tanks and liquid hydrogen tanks can be replaced with hydranol
reformation systems.  Number 5 is interesting, it is going to happen.
It is a question of when for number 5, not if.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but fast charging and battery lifetime<br />
are in opposite directions of each other.  What I&#8217;m saying is,<br />
you can&#8217;t optimize a battery for maximum lifetime and quick<br />
charging.  Again, correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, the plan for<br />
the Volt is to have people plug it in at night.  Am I wrong to<br />
think that the Volt battery will take hours, not minutes, to<br />
recharge fully?  What about people who park on the street,<br />
how will they plug in at night?  How about people who park<br />
in large parking structures that don&#8217;t have electrical outlets?</p>
<p>Here are breakthroughs, ones that are not likely to happen,<br />
which I would like to see:</p>
<p>1) High quality solar panels drop substantially in price and<br />
    GM announces that the roof of the Volt will be a solar<br />
    collector (not a big deal in Oregon with our liquid sunshine).</p>
<p>2) A replacement is found for Lithium that is available within<br />
    U.S. borders in large quantity.  This replacement is<br />
    better than Lithium and it&#8217;s source is not environmentally<br />
    sensitive.</p>
<p>3) A fusion reactor is built that produces more energy than<br />
    it&#8217;s operators put into it and this fusion reactor has a<br />
    20 year operational life span.</p>
<p>4) The public accepts pebble bed nuclear reactors and nuclear to<br />
    hydrogen materializes.  The problem with fission is that it is<br />
    only a 100 year solution, but carbon wise and heavy metals<br />
    wise it is cleaner than burning coal.  There is the problem that<br />
    you have to mine for uranium, but it is necessary to mine for<br />
    a lot of resources including Lithium. </p>
<p>5) The price of oil spikes up again forcing a more aggressive<br />
     move to alternative fuels such as: hydrogen, biodiesel,<br />
     cellulosic ethanol, etcetera.  Of all of these options,<br />
     hydrogen gets the most attention.</p>
<p>6) The Chevy Volt hydrogen is redesigned to reform hydranol<br />
     extending it&#8217;s range and it is mass produced.</p>
<p>7)  GM abandons the use of platinum in it&#8217;s fuel cell prototypes.</p>
<p> <img src='http://gm-volt.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' />  Very unlikely, there is a tenfold improvement in energy density<br />
     for Lithium ION batteries and the size of the Volt&#8217;s battery is<br />
     substantially reduced.</p>
<p>9) Hydrogen cooled high voltage power lines become common<br />
     making both hydrogen and electricity more widely available.</p>
<p>10) Fuel cells continue to output more and more power for the<br />
       same amount of hydrogen that today&#8217;s fuel cells use.  The<br />
       talk of fuel cell cars gives way to fuel cell trucks and sport<br />
       utility vehicles.  The penetration of fuel cell vehicles passes<br />
       25% of all driven vehicles.</p>
<p>Some of these 10 things should have happened already, 6,7, and<br />
9 for example.  The first four, 1-4, are unrealistic and will probably<br />
never happen.  Number 10 on the list is likely to happen judging<br />
from the history of fuel cell cars.  They have been getting more and<br />
more powerful where the fuel cell stack has been taking up less and<br />
less space.  Number 8, if it happens, could change whether hydrogen fuel cell cars or chemical battery cars dominate in the future.  Number 8 is extremely unlikely as there has been a LOT<br />
of development on the Lithium ION battery chemistry.  Aside from<br />
these 10 things, platinum in fuel cells can be replaced now with<br />
nitrogen doped vertical carbon nanotubes.  Compressed hydrogen<br />
tanks and liquid hydrogen tanks can be replaced with hydranol<br />
reformation systems.  Number 5 is interesting, it is going to happen.<br />
It is a question of when for number 5, not if.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Robinson</title>
		<link>http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/19/gm-volt-battery-update/#comment-101741</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 06:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gm-volt.com/?p=1575#comment-101741</guid>
		<description>Hern, haven&#039;t I made the point that quick charging is more 
practical for fuel cells than large lithium ION batteries?  The 
trip from Portland Oregon to Ontario Oregon is more than 200 
miles and easily embarked upon over the course of a single 
day.  Assuming that the blues aren&#039;t snowed in, you only 
need to refuel once in the Dalles, you refuel again just 
before you hit the blues, and if you start early enough, you 
should reach Ontario by evening in a 30 mile per gallon
gasoline based automobile.  So if you leave Portland at
1:00 pm you should reach Ontario by 8:00 pm mountain 
time.

The problem with this trip if your vehicle is a 40 mile to 200 mile
AER one that uses a small range extender should be obvious.
If the all electric range is 40 miles, that isn&#039;t much out of 371.76 
miles.  A fuel cell vehicle that reforms hydrnol with a 300 mile
range if there are 3 fueling stations evenly spaced along 
I-84 plus 1 at each end might make more sense than a Chevy
Volt gasoline/electric hybrid.  Let&#039;s say you have a reliable
AER of 200 miles from a chemical battery that takes 8 hours
to charge on a standard 110 outlet.  Unless there is a battery
exchange and the proper equipment at the exchange site to
swap batteries, making the trip in this vehicle isn&#039;t very practical.

Stopping for 8 hours to charge the battery isn&#039;t acceptable if
you intend to make the trip in a single day really.  Let&#039;s say it&#039;s
a 6 hour trip.  Well, adding 8 hours to that figure is problematic.
That means out of 24 hours that you spend 8 hours stopped to
charge the battery up and 6 hours driving.  So if the AER is 200
miles, you are going to be stopping halfway down for 8 hours to
recharge the battery.

Google for Assemblon, a Washington based company that has plans to produce hydrnol, an organic hydrogen carrier that can
easily be reformed on board an autmobile to produce a 99.9999%
pure stream of hydrogen gas.

Please note that by March 2 years from now there will be hydrnol
installations along Interstate 5 between California and Canada.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hern, haven&#8217;t I made the point that quick charging is more<br />
practical for fuel cells than large lithium ION batteries?  The<br />
trip from Portland Oregon to Ontario Oregon is more than 200<br />
miles and easily embarked upon over the course of a single<br />
day.  Assuming that the blues aren&#8217;t snowed in, you only<br />
need to refuel once in the Dalles, you refuel again just<br />
before you hit the blues, and if you start early enough, you<br />
should reach Ontario by evening in a 30 mile per gallon<br />
gasoline based automobile.  So if you leave Portland at<br />
1:00 pm you should reach Ontario by 8:00 pm mountain<br />
time.</p>
<p>The problem with this trip if your vehicle is a 40 mile to 200 mile<br />
AER one that uses a small range extender should be obvious.<br />
If the all electric range is 40 miles, that isn&#8217;t much out of 371.76<br />
miles.  A fuel cell vehicle that reforms hydrnol with a 300 mile<br />
range if there are 3 fueling stations evenly spaced along<br />
I-84 plus 1 at each end might make more sense than a Chevy<br />
Volt gasoline/electric hybrid.  Let&#8217;s say you have a reliable<br />
AER of 200 miles from a chemical battery that takes 8 hours<br />
to charge on a standard 110 outlet.  Unless there is a battery<br />
exchange and the proper equipment at the exchange site to<br />
swap batteries, making the trip in this vehicle isn&#8217;t very practical.</p>
<p>Stopping for 8 hours to charge the battery isn&#8217;t acceptable if<br />
you intend to make the trip in a single day really.  Let&#8217;s say it&#8217;s<br />
a 6 hour trip.  Well, adding 8 hours to that figure is problematic.<br />
That means out of 24 hours that you spend 8 hours stopped to<br />
charge the battery up and 6 hours driving.  So if the AER is 200<br />
miles, you are going to be stopping halfway down for 8 hours to<br />
recharge the battery.</p>
<p>Google for Assemblon, a Washington based company that has plans to produce hydrnol, an organic hydrogen carrier that can<br />
easily be reformed on board an autmobile to produce a 99.9999%<br />
pure stream of hydrogen gas.</p>
<p>Please note that by March 2 years from now there will be hydrnol<br />
installations along Interstate 5 between California and Canada.</p>
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