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Chevrolet Cruze to Start Under $16,000 in UK, Volt Under $30,000 in 2012?

March 10th, 2009 | Posted in: Financial

Official pricing has been reported for the Chevrolet Cruze in the UK. This car is expected to be a hot seller there and when it goes on sale in the US in 2010. It is going on sale in Europe this July. The car is a sleek sedan that is fuel efficient and refined.

In Europe, the base model will have a 1.6 L 111 hp engine and go on sale for 11,495 pounds, this equates to $15,919 dollars. The higher end LS model with the same engine, A/C and automatic will be priced at 13,695 pounds or $18,966 dollars. There are are 3 additional European models, a 1.8 L 139 hp, and two different 2.0 L turbo diesels.

The exact specifications will be different in the US models. The US base will use a 1.8 L 4 cylinder with a turbocharged 1.4 L 4 cylinder engine as the next model upscale, and no diesel variety is planned. The car is expected to deliver excellent fuel efficiency. On European cycle, the 1.6 L Cruze is rated at 35 MPG average. Though never announced or confirmed by GM, a hybrid version using either GM’s lithium-ion second generation BAS or 2-mode drivetrain seems like it could be a good idea.

On a related note, UK publication The Telegraph reports that the British Chevy Volt, known as the Vauxhall Ampera will be “costing around £20,000,” and “is due to go on sale in 2012.” That figure translates to $27,698 USD. 2012 would be the third year of Volt production for GM and likely the first truly high volume year if demand allows. By then, GM would expect economies of scale for battery and vehicle production to have come into play. Thus it is reasonable to infer that 2012 could be the year GM expects to sell the Volt for under $30,000.

Source (AutoCar) and (The Telegraph)

Posted by: Lyle

153 Responses to “Chevrolet Cruze to Start Under $16,000 in UK, Volt Under $30,000 in 2012?”


  1. Jeffrey
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeffrey     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:06 am

    Wow – $27,698 – $7,500 tax credit? I’ll take 2 for $20,200 each!

    Well, we can dream, can’t we? Maybe this is the future battery discount we’ve talked about – a few years to perfect the batteries and prices for the batteries drop by half? If so, I can stand to wait a year or two before getting one if it saves me this much cash…

    Of course, maybe this quote is old enough to be from when the British Pound was almost $2.00, pushing us right back near $40K!
    (First? Sweet!)  

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  2. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Cars in Europe have traditionally been more expensive compared to what you would pay in North America. Considering those are UK prices, would a comparable Volt and Cruze be even cheaper here in North America? (Canada for me!)  

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  3. vincent
    Vote -1 Vote +1vincent     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Go USA!
    Obviously the talks with the car czar went very very well…  

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  4. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:11 am

    Wow- was going to be my lead word and then I saw the #1 post. :)
    How about “great” or terrific or really cool.

    Hopefully Lyle can confirm this with his GM sources.  

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  5. Brain Dead Monkey
    Vote -1 Vote +1Brain Dead Monkey     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:27 am

    The Volt is shaping up do be the poor man’s electric vehicle.
    I think that is what GM had in mind to begin with. The Caddy version looks to be much better and feature rich.  

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  6. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Sounds great. The sooner the better. As Captain Aubery always said, “There is not a moment to be lost.”

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! DBNGCMEMEV

    BTW, when my younger son told me two years ago, “Dad, my next car is going to be electric. I’m not going to buy another car until I can buy an electric car.”, I just looked at him and muttered “Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure Chris.” Now he is starting to look like a prophet.  

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  7. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:34 am

    If GM can produce a good car that reliably gets 40 mpg, then they are wise to leapfrog the whole parallel hybrid technology in small cars and just stick with an ICE for the low end of the market (as opposed to the entry-level but still more expensive Honda Insight). Any jump from 40 mpg up to 50 mpg is negligible in actual fuel costs or environmental benefits. The key is to get people out of 20 mpg cars and into the 40 mpg ones. In that regard, GM would be wise to focus on hybrid technology for small SUVs, etc, which is exactly what they are doing (as well as focusing on the Voltec system). Honda and Toyota seem to be getting the green praise, but it is GM that is following the most efficient (and green) strategy.  

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  8. MarkinWI
    Vote -1 Vote +1MarkinWI     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:35 am

    Noel @#6 – Cripes, I didn’t know you were on this site too Dad! :-)

    Interesting price info. A Cruze with automatic and air for $18K and 40 mpg, and a Volt with same for $27K. Put a Cruze hybrid in the middle for $22K and let the people choose. Looks like a winning line-up to me.  

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  9. Brian
    Vote -1 Vote +1Brian     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I’m not not sure why this car is so notewothy. While I’m a huge GM fan I would have to look at this car and say “what took you long”. Also being a huge fan of the Volt and will buy one at first chance. We all need to keep in mind the Fed’s and Local powers to be are not going to let you drive on there highways for free. Take a look at Orgeon they are looking at dumping there gas tax in favor of a uesage tax and requiring you to buy a GPS that would track where and when you drove your car, then plug it in at the gas pump and be charged accordingly when you buy your next gallon of gas. All that being said the idea of the Volt displacing gasoline is a complex and mind numbing proposion. My gut feeling is we will drive our Volts but the Feds will make it so that you will not realize any great finacial win fall for having done so. I really don’t believe they want to get off of oil to much money and jobs at stake.  

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  10. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:40 am

    @noel park 6
    ““Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure Chris.” Now he is starting to look like a prophet.”

    Don’t you just hate it when they know more than you……lol

    I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…  

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  11. Art V
    Vote -1 Vote +1Art V     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:50 am

    You are speculating on the Volt price based on a foreign non company source, AND at current exchange rates and projecting that to 2012. You might as well be guessing. Slow Volt news day huh?  

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  12. Kent
    Vote -1 Vote +1Kent     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:54 am

    Does the $7,500 tax credit expire like today’s credit for the hybrids (max. of 75,000 units)? If so, by the time the Volt drops to $30,000, the tax credit will be gone and, either way, we’ll still be paying about $30,000. If memory serves, this is exactly what happened to the Prius. Once the tax credit expired, the price of the Prius dropped and is also selling below MSRP.

    Bottom line: The consumer pays the same regardless of the tax credit.

    Regardless, I still want one!  

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  13. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:58 am

    #7 Jim in PA & #8 Mark in WI:

    I agree. Many here have said, rightly IMHO, that the Volt alone can’t save GM. This will be a hugely valuable addition to the product line, and a great step toward that salvation.

    #10 Capt JackSparrow:

    Yeah, LOL. We have to wait for them to come to visit to get our computers and other magic electronic devices updated. Either that, or my wife drafts the neighbors’ 12 year old kids.

    What’s really bad is when the dog outsmarts you, but that’s another story.  

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  14. BigCityCat
    Vote -1 Vote +1BigCityCat     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:00 am

    Except 70% of the fuel used in this country is used by large trucks that ship goods across the country. Solving the personal automobile problem is only going to reduce fuel consumption in 30 % of cars on the road.  

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  15. Gsned57
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gsned57     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:01 am

    Assume you can get your hands on a 2010 volt for 40K and get that 7500 rebate from the fed. There’s only a 5,000 difference between that and a $27,500 volt. Compared to the normal depreciation of American cars (30% off the lot and 50% after 2 years) I think it still makes sense to buy a 2010 Volt if you are going to get a new American car anyway.

    Personally I don’t believe the $27,500 price tag for the volt in 2012, but if it does come out that cheap and I can get $7500 back from the government I will certainly trade in my 2005 Prius for it and get whatever Minivan GM puts ontop of a Voltec platform. They could easily get 2 sales from a guy who’s never before owned a GM product.

    Until then, NPNS and work on keeping my ‘86 Vanagon alive.  

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  16. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:03 am

    $16,000 starting price is a robbery, since Daewoo’s shipping Cruze out for $8,000.  

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  17. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:06 am

    #7 Jim in PA

    “The key is to get people out of 20 mpg cars and into the 40 mpg ones.”

    If you build it, will they come? We still want it all, like an inexpensive, fuel efficient Hummer.  

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  18. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:10 am

    On the non-pipe-dream front, Honda Insight US pricing was released today. It starts at $19,800 and apparently will be on sale within two weeks (a month ahead of the previous schedule).

    Japanese orders for the first month alone are already about twice what is expected for the Volt’s first full year of production.

    I am coining a new acronym: NPNSD – No Plug No Sale Dinosaur. It will be used to identify those people who are so backwards as to miss the apparent point of the Volt (saving fuel and getting the US energy independent) for the sake of propping up the Volt.  

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  19. Anthony BC
    Vote -1 Vote +1Anthony BC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    VOLT for 2012!

    Only 1026 days to go for under 30K VOLT!!! :-)

    GO EV, GO GM!  

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  20. Jake
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jake     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Too bad there won’t be a diesel option for the Cruze in the U.S.

    I will be very interested to see what the fuel economy is like in the Cruze.  

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  21. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    7. Jim in PA wrote:
    “If GM can produce a good car that reliably gets 40 mpg”
    ———————————————————————————–
    Except they can’t. They know they can’t. They are purposely ambiguous and people don’t bother to think enough to call them on it. It might get 40 MPG highway, but it will probably get 30 MPG city. And consider that GM would say that the Cobalt XFE is a near 40MPG car as it is rated 37MPG highway (25 city). Yet in the Edmunds test they got a best tank of 29 and a worst of 22.

    So the Cruze might be real-world 30 vs a good hybrid that will get 50+ MPG real-world. There is no real comparison.  

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  22. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am

    @Kent 12
    “Does the $7,500 tax credit expire like today’s credit for the hybrids (max. of 75,000 units)?”

    Someone correct me if i’m wrong but I believe the new stimulus or PHEV incentives increased the numbrs of 75.000 to 200,000 units.

    I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…  

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  23. Reel$$
    Vote -1 Vote +1Reel$$     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    So, with a $7,500.00 tax credit the 2012 VOLT will cost me $20k. And at $.10 cents per kWh * 8kWh/charge = $.80 cents for 40 mile AER operation. Or about 80 percent LESS than the cost of gasoline equivalents. My daily commute of 35 miles round trip will cost me $24 a month. Right now I pay around $150 / month for gas. That’s a whole week of groceries free!! And if I need to go out of town the ICE kicks in at around 50+ mpg. Credible!

    Looks like electrification of transport is well under way. Never back down GM!  

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  24. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:40 am

    I still say put the Voltec platform on the small pickup “Colorado” and sell it stripped down. People will buy. I’m first in line and I will also buy a Volt. You think i’ll get a “Package Deal”?
    Yes, I will buy both cars, assuming I’ll have enough aluminum cans and plastic bottles to recycle.  

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  25. Jim Rowland
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim Rowland     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:42 am

    2012 is almost three years, with luck and forward thinking GM will still be around and selling lots of volts. Good luck too all in this economy.  

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  26. GLV
    Vote -1 Vote +1GLV     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Looks like the pricing could be much more reasonable than many here have been concerned about previously…ASSUMING they actually build it…

    Whether or not GM is a “viable concern going forward” in 2012 will have much more to do with whether or not any of us will be able to purchase a cheap Volt…IMHO…  

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  27. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:51 am

    Price fluctuates from one post to another for the Insight. See the following link…

    2010 Honda Insight officially priced at $20,470*, on sale March 24

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/03/10/2010-honda-insight-officially-priced-at-19-800/  

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  28. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “The US base will use a 1.8 L V4″

    Surely this is a typo? V4 would be a pretty rare engine configuration. Besides, I thought the Cruze would have the same inline 4 being used as the Volt’s range extender?

    We’d better hope the Cruze takes off; this is what will allow GM to recover from the current mess. Yes, the Volt is the main thing, but GM has to survive long enough, or it doesn’t happen.

    “Though never announced or confirmed by GM, a hybrid version using either GM’s lithium-ion second generation BAS or 2-mode drivetrain seems like it could be a good idea.”

    … and that’s precisely why it won’t be done — because it does seem like it could be a good idea. It sounds like GM hasn’t learned a thing, but I really hope they prove me wrong.  

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  29. Gas Electric Volt
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gas Electric Volt     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    I don’t think it will be possible to reduce battery costs by 50% in two years (2011 and 2012 model years); maybe in five years but, not two.

    I can see a 2015 model with an MSRP of $30k…  

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  30. Dave B
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave B     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Interesting that we’re seeing price points for 3 years down the road for a UK model that is BEHIND production of the Volt. This report is inaccurate. The Volt’s pricing would come first, and why aren’t we getting quotes on the initial Volt price? They know the cost, but I suspect it is just too high for PR damage control at the moment. GM may topple if released.  

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  31. TALLPALL
    Vote -1 Vote +1TALLPALL     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Does anyone know if the UK government is giving any incentives to by EREV’s? I know there is no such thing as a tax credit in the UK. Which is probably why there is a REAL Suggested retail price.

    With a tax credit in the US of $7,500 on each Volt , I can’t see GM dropping the Price below $37,495 on the first 200,00 EREV’s.

    The only way we will be able to pay less than $29,995 after incentives for the Volt in the US, is if GM sees that they are not selling. And that will not happen. They will want to maximize profits for as long as they can.

    Anyways I’ll probably be back in the England by 2012 so the Ampera will get me out of $7+ a gallon gas. Go GM  

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  32. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    #18 GXT:

    I’ve tried a lot of acronyms here. A few take, and most are never heard of again.

    #24 CaptJackSparrow:

    Me too. You’re on a roll today!

    Dr. Dennis & #27 Jackson:

    BAS or 2-mode would be awesome. I guess we can only hope for the best.  

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  33. Unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1Unni     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    BC, Canada is going forward in case of EVs by developing EV Infrastructure Guidelines for British Columbia.

    http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090304005205&newsLang=en

    Wondering GM also should contribute to the move. The target is to get all vehicles transform to EVs by 2030.

    Pricing of Volt or cruze hybrid using a cut down volt technology :

    Honda insight is priced at 20k (now, not 2010) , By reducing the cost of the complicated powertrain, volt/cruze hybrid should bring the cost down than that.

    If they use a high efficiency engine with some co-generation systems and achieve more than 80% efficiency from the ICE engine then they are all set to hit a 120mpg hybrid with the trimmed volt technology. I am imagining cruze hybrid with a voltec drive train, a 10 mile battery and a very efficient ICE engine using some co- generation systems . I am sure GM knows about engines better than anybody).  

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  34. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    BTW, did any good news come out ot the famous visit yesterday? I never could get the thread with the !@#$% video to open. I guess this poor old computer just can’t deal with it.  

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  35. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

    #12 Kent Says: Does the $7,500 tax credit expire like today’s credit for the hybrids (max. of 75,000 units)?
    ————————————————————————————–
    The tax credit expires after 200,000 vehicles per manufacturer. The tax credit starts at $2500 for a 4kWh battery, and expands up to a maximum of $7500 for a 16kWh battery.

    ======================================================

    #22 CaptJackSparrow Says: Someone correct me if i’m wrong but I believe the new stimulus or PHEV incentives increased the numbers of 75.000 to 200,000 units.
    ————————————————————————————–
    The old PHEV tax credit passed last summer was set to expire after 250,000 vehicles. That was for all manufacturers combined. The new PHEV tax credit passed in the recent stimulus bill changed that from 250,000 combined to 200,000 per manufacturer.

    Note that this is for all plug-ins sold by a manufacturer. So the Saturn Vue plug-in would compete with the Volt for that 200,000 vehicle phase-out of the tax credit.  

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  36. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    #33 Unni:

    That’s what I’m talking about! Bring it on.

    How about a Spark hybrid? Less weight, less frontal area, what’s not to like?  

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  37. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    #21 GXT –

    Who you gonna believe… Edmunds or your own lying’ eyes? I choose my own lying eyes. I rented the Cobalt in question last fall for a 600 mile road trip, with a combination local roads and interstate (but not much stop-and-go city), and had an average trip mileage of 35.7 mpg on the digital display at the end. I remember that number very clearly because I was so surprised by it. Anyone who says the Cobalt can’t consistently achieve 36 mpg highway is either running on flat tires or lying.  

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  38. Starcast
    Vote -1 Vote +1Starcast     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    I like it when we get good news! :>)  

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  39. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    Whatever the price of the Volt here in California, say $35000, add 5% for State DMV registration + 8.3% Sales Tax for a grand total of = $38500.00

    I don’t bother with the $7500 because no matter where it’s applied the loan amount doesn’t change nor does the monthly payments.  

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  40. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    noel park (#34)

    Time to call the kids. ;-)

    I wish my neice could find time to show me how to use this iPod thing-y.

    (#32)

    I like MarkInWi’s (#8) lineup idea: Cruze, Cruze hybrid, Volt.

    An added benefit to a hybridized Cruze is that a Lithium Ion based design will increase cell volumes at their pack assembly line, lowering overall battery costs. Also goes for the Saturn (Chevy?) Plug-in Vue.

    Leapfrogging with the Volt is fine, but I strongly believe GM still needs something that can go head-to-head with a Prius/Insight; not only to prove something to US buyers, but to itself.  

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  41. Jason
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jason     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    Great video of the electric Mini

    http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=1052621

    BMW was able to take a current popular model and within 1 year convert it to electric and they are already rolling down the road. 120-150 mile range, 95 MPH, regenerative braking, 2.5 hr charge. BMW did this in 1 year.

    Why is GM so dang slow? I think they should have taken the Cobalt and electrified it to get something out there while developing the Volt.  

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  42. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    #12 Kent Says: Once the tax credit expired, the price of the Prius dropped and is also selling below MSRP. Bottom line: The consumer pays the same regardless of the tax credit.
    ————————————————————————————–
    That’s actually how tax credits are supposed to work.

    In the beginning production costs are higher, since they’re still working out the kinks in the process. So the government tax credits help defer that extra cost.

    Later, after the manufacturing process has been fine tuned, production costs come down. So the government tries to estimate when this will occur, and designs the tax credits to phase out appropriately.  

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  43. omnimoeish
    Vote -1 Vote +1omnimoeish     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    The first two years (end of 2010 to end of 2012), they will be in such low production levels and high demand, even if they price it at $40k off the lot, and the tax incentive drops it to $32,500, this is really not outside that many people’s price range since the average new car costs $27,500 approx.

    Whine about the price being too high, but they have spent over a $1 billion on the car already and they are going to need to charge as much as they can as long as they can still moving the few thousand they are making. If they make 10,000 in 2011, that will only be about 900 cars a month nationwide they need to sell. Tesla is charging $110,000 and they have a waiting list that far exceeds their production capacity. I suspect the Volt will have the same clamoring. There are very well off celebrities and businesses who would love having the green yet still patriotic image.

    I think GM will find a way to drop the price to $30k or so by 2012, profitable or not, just because they may be forced to by the competition.

    The problem is that Japan is counting on these being expensive and low production. Japan’s whole industry is based on under cutting foreign competition no matter what the loss they have to take because in the long term, no one can keep up. Look at what’s happened to the electronics market, TVs, radios, DVD players, etc. Japan’s vehicle economies of scale will be off the charts by the time 2012 gets here with the Insight and the Prius. I suspect the plug in Prius, although still using slightly more gas, will be much much cheaper.

    Can anyone explain what is going to take production another 2 years? Are they now just waiting on LG Chem? They have had the vehicle body finalized for over half a year now.  

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  44. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    @Jason 46
    “BMW was able to take a current popular model and within 1 year convert it to electric and they are already rolling down the road. 120-150 mile range, 95 MPH, regenerative braking, 2.5 hr charge. BMW did this in 1 year.”

    BMW took an already existing product and “Retrofitted” the electric drive. They took the AC Propulsion drive and the Tesla batteries and slapped onto the Mini. Interestingly both Tesla and AC Propulsion are US companies. Go US!
    One interesting tidbit about the Mini is they had to set the brake lights to turn on when you removed your foot off of the accelerator because brke regen automatically slowed you down.

    Ford did the same thing with the Focus BEV that Lyle got to drive. They used Magna to do the retrofitting.  

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  45. canehdian
    Vote -1 Vote +1canehdian     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    GM isn’t fooling anyone, they can’t make a 40mpg car, even if they could it can’t be reached more than once in a blue moon.
    I think advertising regulations should force them to advertise with only the LOWEST EPA-tested value.
    That should force them to increase fuel economy where it matters most – in the city.
    On the highway you naturally use less gas as you don’t waste energy by having to stop and accelerate again.  

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  46. David K (CT)
    Vote -1 Vote +1David K (CT)     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    From the Article…”2012 would be the third year of Volt production for GM…”

    I’m a little confused.

    2011 Chevy Volt on sale Nov. 2010
    2012 Chevy Volt on sale Sept. 2011

    Third year Volt would be…

    2013 Chevy Volt on sale Sept. 2012…oh OK, I see it now.

    Are these dates correct?

    I take one of the Blue 2012 Chevy Volts (19,xxx on “The List”).

    Can’t wait!  

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  47. Aaron
    Vote -1 Vote +1Aaron     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I’m furious about this misinformation. I just saw an article about the Volt pulled from Dow Jones News written by some schmoe named Jim Murphy. Here’s an excerpt as I couldn’t find a working link to post:

    GM itself says the range without recharging for a Volt is 40 miles. Then, says GM, “It will use a lithium-ion battery with a gasoline-powered, range-extending engine that drives a generator to provide electric power when you drive beyond the 40-mile battery range.”
    This means that the millions of people whose jobs are more than 20 miles from their homes will either have to, at some point during their round trip, switch to gasoline engines or stop to recharge their Volts before they can get home.
    Which brings me to a further consideration. Are the nation’s gasoline station operators planning for the day in the not-so-distant future when they’ll have to have a bunch of widely spaced electric outlets out front to go along with their gasoline pumps? Relatedly, how long will it take to charge a Volt? It’s got to take a longer time than the five minutes or less it takes to “fill ‘er up.” It takes me at least one half hour to recharge my cellphone.
    While I’m waiting at the electricity station for my Volt to recharge, will there be a lounge where I can sit down and read the latest magazines?
    What if I live in Mankato, Minn.? Do I have to stand outside in 20-degree-below weather waiting for my Volt to recharge?
    The Volt makes sense, assuming you can afford it, only as a second car. Can you imagine driving from New York to Chicago and either stopping every 40 miles to recharge your Volt or switching to gasoline for a major portion of the trip?  

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  48. BillR
    Vote -1 Vote +1BillR     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    Why would anyone want to pay $28k for a Voltec car that has a combined EPA rating of 150 mpg, goes 0 to 60 in 7 seconds, and has extremely low tailpipe emissons, when they can buy a regular 45 mpg hybrid for $24k?

    Boy, GM just doesn’t get it, do they.  

    (Quote)


  49. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    @BillR 48

    Good one………if my conotation was your intention.
    :o p  

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  50. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    #40 Jackson:

    Yeah, the iPod, LOL. It’s in the drawer there somewhere.

    As to the rest of your comment, amen.

    #43 omnimoeish:

    I agree with you on the pricing issue.

    As to Japanese manufacturing of electronics, I don’t see much of it made in Japan anymore. Maybe the very top end, but that’s about it. It may say Sony or Panasonic on the front, but most of it is made in China.

    I always say that Korea did to Japan what Japan did to the US, Taiwan did to Korea what Korea did to Japan, Malaya did to Taiwan what Taiwan did to Korea, and China did to Malaya what Malaya did to Taiwan. And I guess Wal Mart has worked its way across China, from the coast to the interior, always searching for a lower wage province. And so it goes, circling the drain of “globalization” to find the cheapest labor. I wonder who’s next? Maybe Burkina Fasso? Although I guess China even killed some low wage textile plants in Africa a few years ago.

    My only hope is that fuel gets so expensive that it costs so much to ship the stuff 10K+ miles that they lose their cost advantage. It could happen.

    Anyway, great comments today bloggers. Well done. Keep it up.  

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  51. N Riley
    Vote -1 Vote +1N Riley     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    I didn’t see anyone mention it in the last thread about the auto team driving the Volt mules or prototypes, but wasn’t one of the Volt cars a mini-SUV or CUV? Take a look at the video and see what you think.

    Edited: Well, maybe it was just the angle and from above that made the rear glass look more vertical than it was. Wishful thinking could be playing some part in it, also.  

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  52. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    #47 Aaron —> Be calm. Beyond 40 miles, the switch over from all-electric to ICE is automatic. The driver will not notice much of a difference. The car continues on. No stops are needed. Eventually (in 200 to 300 miles) one has to stop to buy more gas or recharge or both, as in any other car.

    The point is that the crucial first 40 is all electric, and that is sufficient for the day in many situations. You can recharge whenever you want to and have a few hours, but there is no particular urgency, so most people will recharge overnight.

    I don’t think many people will be recharging at gas stations, but possibly there could be quite a few at shopping malls.  

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  53. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    The Chevy Cobalt that the Cruze will replace is still agreat little car that only suffers from 90’s styling and lack of a little more sound insulation material. They get good gas mileage now. Can’t wait for the Cruze to show up.  

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  54. Mike D
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mike D     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    It’s disappointing that there hasn’t been any talk yet of a Cruze hybrid… imagine the two mode system with auto stop and fuel shutoff while coasting and regen braking… all on a 1.4 Turbo that got 40 MPG to start with…

    what’s a Honda Insight?  

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  55. Tall Pete
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tall Pete     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    #47 Aaron
    The Volt makes sense, assuming you can afford it, only as a second car. Can you imagine driving from New York to Chicago and either stopping every 40 miles to recharge your Volt or switching to gasoline for a major portion of the trip?
    =======================================================
    And if you use a ‘regular’ car, your trip we be made using what kind of fuel if not gasoline ??

    The Volt is not a second car. It’s your main car. It’s not a BEV, that’s the whole point.  

    (Quote)


  56. Tall Pete
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tall Pete     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    And one more thing. It’s about time people start to think about the future, not the past. Gas stations are of the past. In years to come, there will be electric charging stations and the likes. As soon as there is demand, they will pop up. If there is profit to be made, it will be available. Why not ?

    The entire infrastructure is to build, but it’s an opportunity, not an obstacle. ICE cars took 100 years+ to become what they are now, it will not take that long for electric cars to catch up.

    You go shopping and you plug your car. Heck, it can even be a way to attract customers : ‘Come shopping on wednesdays, recharging is half price’. ‘Our mall has xx recharging stations for your convenience’. Etc.

    Let’s embrace the future.  

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  57. solo2500nt
    Vote -1 Vote +1solo2500nt     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Lots of observations on this stream.

    1: The Honda Insight is not the $18,000 car they promised. It is now $20,470. Not a bad price for a Prius clone, but not the 18,000 everybody in the press, and gm-volt.com has been clamoring about for months. Keep in mind the price will go up in a few months. I’ll bet my next paycheck the base price will be up about $1,000 to $1,500 before the end of the year.

    2: Europe is not getting the 1.4 turbo? I thought they would get it first. Oh well, we don’t get diesels, they don’t get turbos (gas turbos).

    3: A lot of people are saying ‘my next car will be electric’ or ‘no plug no sale’. Well I hope you guys have newer cars or good mechanic’s because it will be a while yet before you can walk into a dealer and drive off with an electric anything that same day. These vehicles are going to have very limited availability for quite some time even after their introduction. Heck, only now can you walk into a Toyota dealer and drive off with a Prius. That took almost 8 years.  

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  58. Why is the US so backwards?
    Vote -1 Vote +1Why is the US so backwards?     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:41 pm

    “two different 2.0 L turbo diesels”

    Turbo diesel Volt.

    Drool, drool, drool.

    Worth the diesel premium, in my book.

    Can we get a “El Camino del Nerde” version of this?  

    (Quote)


  59. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    #43 omnimoeish Says: Can anyone explain what is going to take production another 2 years?
    ————————————————————————————–
    Most new car designs take 3-5 years to develop. They can tweak existing designs every year, but a blank paper, ground-up design takes 3-5 years. It’s like that with all car makers.

    Production Volt development started (unofficially) around the spring of 2007, so the November 2010 release date is already aggressive, especially for a new technology like this. Lots of overtime on the Volt development. What’s unusual about the Volt is that GM announced it so early in the development process. That’s why it seems like it’s taking so long.

    Here’s my guess about how it will progress going forward. Right now, it appears GM is finishing up with the mule testing and tweaking the design as necessary.

    This spring, they should have the first Volt prototypes. This will be the first time the Volt body is fitted with a real Volt drivetrain. We’ve already seen the production Volt body moving around, but that car has a golf cart type motor under the hood. The first Volt prototypes will be hand built using production intent parts. The hand-built prototypes will be tested – a lot. There will probably be some more design tweaks during this phase.

    In parallel, they will start designing and building the Volt assembly line. Once that’s finished and starts working (probably early 2010), there will be hundreds of pre-production Volts available for all sorts of tests, in all possible conditions. Hopefully, there will be no significant design flaws found at this point, but there will probably be some production type flaws that will need to be sorted out.

    By summer 2010, the pre-production tests should be wrapping up. By early fall, the first true production Volts should start rolling down the assembly line. These will probably be shipped to various dealers in order to help train sales and service people. By November 2010, there should be enough Volts delivered to the dealers to start the launch…  

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  60. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    Speaking of charging stations, Lyle…

    Has GM provided the specs for 3rd party charging stations?
    Investing in the infrastructure of “pay-per-charge” stations is starting to sound like a good idea.

    I can picture “fillin’ stations” adding a “10-Minute-Charging-Pump” over by the ‘water & air’ machine. (I’d say $5.00 a pop.)

    If you find out who is most likely to be the manufacturer of those, be sure to post it here. That could be as good an investment as the battery maker.  

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  61. N Riley
    Vote -1 Vote +1N Riley     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    The prices quoted in this article is for British cars in 2010 and 2012, not for U.S, production. There is no price set for cars sold in North America, yet. Don’t expect miracle prices. Be satisfied it stays under $40,000 the first year and maybe it will drop down over the next two years. It is just too early to realistically expect a price. Translating those prices to dollar values based on today’s exchange rate only serves to whet our appetite for a low price. Maybe we will get it and maybe not.  

    (Quote)


  62. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    #57 solo2500nt

    How much money will be in your next paycheck?  

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  63. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    I just checked the spec, Euro Cruze has same engines as KDM Lacetti Premier. Meaning a pair of non-Turbo gasoline engines and a turbo Diesel engine.  

    (Quote)


  64. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    #59 Dave G Says:

    > Most new car designs take 3-5 years to develop. They can tweak existing designs every year, but a blank paper, ground-up design takes 3-5 years. It’s like that with all car makers.

    If it takes an automaker 3~5 years to develop a new car, then that automaker is doomed in today’s market place.

    Japanese/Korean automakers come up with a new platform car in less than 3 years and a derivative car based on an existing platform in less than 18 months. For example, Hyundai just launched a GT-R/LF-A class super car project at the end of last year, to be launched by Fall 2012. Yup, Hyundai’s gonna go from scratch to launch in just 3 years.

    No wonder GM and Chrysler are headed toward bankruptcy court.  

    (Quote)


  65. stas peterson
    Vote -1 Vote +1stas peterson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Reel$$,

    i like your computation, but that assumes continued realistic actions. You have forgotten the Three Stooges Lisa, (Larry), Steve, (Moe), and John (Curly), that the Clueless One appointedas his ?Energy Czars? By then the price for electricity delivered only occasionally by the wind mills, solar plants and volcano tappers will cost you $7.50 per KWH.

    Those morons are well on the way to accomplishing their mission to bankrupt and de-industrialize western civilization. After all, John Holdren (Curly), publisihed his prophecy that the US population would be down to 22 million starving peasants by Year 2000. He still wants to be correct, so what, if he is a few years late?  

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  66. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    #47 Aaron Says: What if I live in Mankato, Minn.? Do I have to stand outside in 20-degree-below weather waiting for my Volt to recharge? … The Volt makes sense, assuming you can afford it, only as a second car.
    ————————————————————————————–
    Hi Aaron and welcome to the forum.

    The Volt runs on gas or electricity. When you run out of electricity, the gas engine switches on automatically. If you don’t feel like plugging in, the Volt will work just like a regular gas engine car. So there is no need for a second car.

    Plug-in experts all agree that most people should only consider charging overnight. As plug-ins go mainstream, plugging in during the day will wreak havok on our electrical grid.

    Here’s the point: On a given day, 80% of the population drives less than 40 miles. If you only plug in at night, the vast majority of gasoline consumption will be converted to electricity.

    For example, with a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt ………………….. 37
    Prius ………………… 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570  

    (Quote)


  67. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    #64 HyperMiler,

    You can have new designs coming out every 18 months, but that doesn’t mean they take 18 months to develop. Most development works like a pipeline. The rate at which things come out has nothing to do with the length of the pipe.

    I’m pretty sure a ground-up new car design takes 3-5 years.  

    (Quote)


  68. Look backwards, Dave G.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Look backwards, Dave G.     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

    #59 Dave G
    “Volt development started (unofficially) around the spring of 2007″

    Er, no, it started in 1989, with the GM Impact.”ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED FEBRUARY 1992. ‘two years since GM announced its intention to produce an EV based on the Impact electric vehicle prototype.’”

    Toss on a range extender liquid fuel engine and voila, the Volt. Are they really having all that much trouble with a liquid fuel engine? You’d think they’d have it figured out after 100 years or so.

    Time to get the Volt on the road, NOW. GM’s already a year behind Tesla and BYD on this and they’ve only been automakers for a few years.

    Automakers could’ve been churning out electric vehicles in bulk since 1973, already, and we would have avoided the last three oil price spikes. When are we going to get with the program?  

    (Quote)


  69. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Time to get the Volt on the road, NOW. GM’s already a year behind Tesla and BYD on this and they’ve only been automakers for a few years.
    ————————————————————————————–
    What kind of car do you think you would get if they rushed it through development and test?

    Give them time to get it right.  

    (Quote)


  70. Steel
    Vote -1 Vote +1Steel     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    #64 HyperMiler,

    Ummm… sounds like a recipe for diaster… btw, Counting from End of 2008-Fall 2012 seems more like 4 years… right in the middle of the 3-5 year time frame

    A car that will always be limited edition etc…

    So what the beef with letting GM take 3-4 years for thier electric car they want to MASS produce?  

    (Quote)


  71. Starcast
    Vote -1 Vote +1Starcast     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    Did I read a few days ago that the plug in Prius would cost $42,000

    If thats true, don’t bother building it. At $42k a plug in Prius will be way over priced noone would buy it.

    Volt less then 40K / plug in prius 42K LOL LOL

    You got to love days like this when we get great news.  

    (Quote)


  72. More spanking for Dave G.
    Vote -1 Vote +1More spanking for Dave G.     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    “EV1 series hybrid … had a gas turbine engine APU…A single-stage, single-shaft, recuperated gas turbine unit with a high-speed permanent-magnet AC generator was provided by Williams International; it weighed 220 lb (99.8 kg), measured 20 inches (50.8 cm) in diameter by 22 inches (55.9 cm) long and was running between 100,000 and 140,000 rpm. The turbine could run on a number of high-octane alternative fuels, from octane-boosted gasoline to compressed natural gas. The APU started automatically when the battery charge dropped below 40% and delivered 40 kW of electrical power, enough to achieve speeds up to 80 mph (128.8 km/h) and to return the car’s 44 NiMH cells to a 50% charge level.

    A fuel tank capacity of 6.5 gallons (24.6 l) and fuel economy of 60 to 100 mpg (3.9 to 2.4 L/100 km) in hybrid mode, depending on the driving conditions, allowed for a highway range of more than 390 miles (627.6 km). The car accelerated to 0-60 mph (96.6 km/h) in 9 seconds.”

    This was in 1999.

    I’m tired of Americans’ “can’t do” attitude. Is this our “worst generation” or what?  

    (Quote)


  73. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    #60 CorvetteGuy Says: Investing in the infrastructure of “pay-per-charge” stations is starting to sound like a good idea.
    ————————————————————————————–
    Plug-in experts agree that most people should only consider charging overnight. As plug-ins go mainstream, plugging in during the day will wreak havok on our electrical grid.

    With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt ………………….. 37
    Prius ………………… 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570  

    (Quote)


  74. It's done. Ding!
    Vote -1 Vote +1It's done. Ding!     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    #69 Dave G

    “Give them time to get it right.”

    Rushing through development and testing? How many decades does that take?

    They’ve had since 1828. Enough stalling is enough.

    Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Volt – NOW!  

    (Quote)


  75. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    #70 Steel Says: … btw, Counting from End of 2008-Fall 2012 seems more like 4 years…
    ————————————————————————————–
    The Volt will be released in the U.S. in November 2010, provided GM still exists…  

    (Quote)


  76. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Ok, I’ve been a little ill, so I’m late to the party on this thread…but couple things:

    A) On the Cruze:
    Crazy, crazy US dollar strength, went from $1=2 pounds last august to $1.38 now…cars are priced on somewhat more normilized levels, and I think that is what we are seeing here….ie) they still have to sell em, I don’t think UK’ers are going to start paying a 35% premium for their cars…fortunately a lot of the costing of the Cruze is localized, because the market is supplied by a Euro plant. GM cars historically sell in Europe at a premium…we just live in a upside down world atm.

    B) Volt at $30K? No chance. You got the same currency normalization happening here (like the Cruze), but in this case it is made in NA completely, so there is no insulating effects. It just has to be priced at a premium to the US market. So maybe that adds another couple thousand, bringing it in the $43,000ish range.

    However, I think it could be priced lower to the consumer in the UK in the long run, because the state of California is not located in Europe…which means GM is not beaten down with the 10year/150K mile warranty. By GM’s own admission they are costing in a whole extra pack into the MSRP to meet this goal…so, with the pack itself is worth anywhere from 6-10K (depending on who you believe). Stripping that out of the MSRP, GM could feasibly bring it to market internationally at 33-37K USD.

    In the end, I’m going to go with the theory of GM prices (and will continue to price cars) at what the market will bare. For the Cruze, that means a little less…for the Volt, probably exactly the same. Companies usually don’t just pass along extra savings to customers because they can…they tend to keep that money and make something almost unheard of…a profit.  

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  77. The toast is getting cold...
    Vote -1 Vote +1The toast is getting cold...     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    This should have been on the roads in 2007 at the latest to catch the last oil spike and build the base – duh.

    November 2010 is maybe for limited, selected fleet leases to Luddites and reactionaries, with abusive testing, followed by highly uncertain plans. Killing it softly, indeed…

    Actually sell it to retail enthusiasts, some of who will baby it to unbelievably good durability, reliability and longevity and some of who will discover every positive performance nook and cranny for you, all of whom will defend it tooth and nail, extoll its virtues, will give you invaluable feedback for where the profits are – individual retail sales and give you something that money can’t buy – word of mouth from real folks.

    GM seems terrified that the Volt is going to succeed, despite them.  

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  78. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Hey, nameless one (x + y + Dave G, yet not Dave G; cold toaster, etc):

    In the first place you’re a @#$% troll; but I can’t resist:

    “Toss on a range extender liquid fuel engine and voila, the Volt.”

    . . . Incoming!!!

    Don’t throw your back out while you’re tossing all that iron and duct tape around. You may need it to land on, later.

    “EV1 series hybrid … had a gas turbine engine APU…”

    What you’re describing was a one-off show car. To mass produce, the per-unit cost would rival the Tesla; with less performance.

    Consider “coward” if you ever come up with your own screen name to use without invoking another’s  

    (Quote)


  79. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    @Jackson 78
    “In the first place you’re a @#$% troll; but I can’t resist:”

    Dude your killin me…..
    OTFLMAO
    I’ma get another beer….  

    (Quote)


  80. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    With the recent posts, maybe we could all use some good news:
    Stocks: Biggest gains of ‘09
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/10/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2009031011

    The Dow gains 379 points, Nasdaq surges 7% and S&P 500 rallies 6.4% on Citigroup and possible limit on short selling.  

    (Quote)


  81. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

  82. Not a troll.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Not a troll.     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    “A…troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community”

    Questions of why the GM Volt, the whole purpose of this site, and of this thread, is so late to the retail market are uncontroversial, noninflammatory, highly relevant and extremely on topic, and are directly related to Dave G’s post that incorrectly shortened GM’s development time on EVs.  

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  83. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    #76 statik Says:

    > fortunately a lot of the costing of the Cruze is localized, because the market is supplied by a Euro plant.

    Euro market Cruzes are shipped from Korea. This is why Europe is getting Cruze 6 months after Korean launch. The US version is delayed by two years after Korean launch because of a delay necessary in setting up US production.  

    (Quote)


  84. Butch
    Vote -1 Vote +1Butch     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    @Dave G

    Sure am glad I loaded up on Citi shares at 1.02 friday and sold today for a 35% return. Best 3 day investment I have ever made! There is money to be made in this market.  

    (Quote)


  85. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    # 67 Dave G Says:

    > You can have new designs coming out every 18 months

    I do mean 18 months from start to beta test vehicles.

    > I’m pretty sure a ground-up new car design takes 3-5 years.

    Not in Asia.

    # 70 Steel Says:

    > Ummm… sounds like a recipe for diaster…

    This is how Asian auto companies operate; they are all on 18/36 month cycle.

    > Counting from End of 2008-Fall 2012 seems more like 4 years… right in the middle of the 3-5 year time frame.

    The reason for this 1 extra year is because of extra time required for tuning. Hyundai’s normal cycle is 18/36 month like Toyota.

    > So what the beef with letting GM take 3-4 years for thier electric car they want to MASS produce?

    Because GM does not operate on 18/36 month cycle, save for GM Daewoo(Which did develop Cruze in 2 years). This is the industry standard, those that can’t keep up with this cycle can’t survive.  

    (Quote)


  86. Sam Y
    Vote -1 Vote +1Sam Y     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    #52 RB

    I think #47 Aaron knows the fact that the car doesn’t stop. I think he is just mad at the misconception Jim Murphy has published for all the people to read and assume that it’s the truth. If you read his newswire column, he is basically forgetting that it is an E-REV; rather he is thinking it’s a pure EV.

    Quote: “Only Tuesday, the company was crowing about how its new Chevy Volt, yet to be marketed, is now getting 40 miles before it has to be recharged.

    The Volt, upon which GM professes to place a lot of hope for a prosperous future, will turn out to be a bomb. Who wants to go just 40 miles and have to stop somewhere to plug in their car to recharge? The Volt will be the perfect vehicle to take little old men like myself to the barber and back.”

    Source: http://forexdaily.org.ru/Dow_Jones/page.htm?id=449783

    So this guy thinks that it’s a pure EV; honestly, even though he is, in his own words, “little old man,” he really should do his reading before writing his columns. His impact could be disastrous for a perfectly good product like our beloved VOLT.  

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  87. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    Basically, GM has to attain the efficiency of Asians(18/36 month product development cycle, 150 cars/workers/year productivity) if it is to survive past reorganization.

    if GM can’t be brought upto Asian level of competitiveness, then all the taxpayer’s bailout money has been flushed down the toilet.  

    (Quote)


  88. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Here’s your plug in hybrid:

    - 40 mi aer
    - approx 140 mpg average
    - 3 wheels
    - $8,000 to $9,000
    - 0 to 60 mph 5 sec
    - Q1 2010
    http://www.product-reviews.net/2009/03/09/2010-piaggio-mp3-hybrid-scooter-trike/  

    (Quote)


  89. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    The only thing I am confused about is:

    Why would GM release “official” pricing for the Ampera, which is not to be sold in the UK until 2012, before they release real pricing for the Volt, which is going to be sold in the USA in Nov, 2010???

    Somehow that just does not make much sense to me……

    Publish the specs and pricing, open up the system to take pre-orders and deposits, and lets get this show on the road!

    :-)   

    (Quote)


  90. solo2500nt
    Vote -1 Vote +1solo2500nt     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    #62 ThombDbhomb

    About $5.00 after my wife takes her cut. :(   

    (Quote)


  91. BillR
    Vote -1 Vote +1BillR     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Dave G,

    Even though the car magazines quote a 3 to 5 year development cycle, and even though GM states they are being especially aggressive because they are developing new Li-Ion battery packs (the one’s Toymota said would not work) in parallel with the new Volt; don’t believe it!

    The automotive geniuses that have come out of the woodwork are here to tell you that new battery packs, an entirely new car (with 100’s of hours of wind tunnel testing), and all the associated vehicle testing, software development, component specification, parts supplier selection, and construction of specialized machine tools and assembly lines can be done much faster.

    These guys are so good, GM would probably hire them. Since GM management routinely reads this blog, please post your professional credentials along with your SAE membership number. Also, please provide links to papers you have provided on above subject matter.

    Once GM hires you, we can all expect to see Volts rolling off the assembly line later this year. Thank you!  

    (Quote)


  92. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    #89 Jim I Says: Why would GM release “official” pricing for the Ampera, which is not to be sold in the UK until 2012, before they release real pricing for the Volt,
    ————————————————————————————–
    God only knows, but here’s my guess.

    GM wants to let people know that the Volt won’t cost as much as everyone is saying, but GM is not prepared to say how much it actually will cost just yet. So they put put prices for Great Brittan, whose currency seems to be in flux right now, which means any conversion to dollars will be meaningless moving forward.  

    (Quote)


  93. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    #91 BillR,

    Well said. Thanks.  

    (Quote)


  94. PLJ
    Vote -1 Vote +1PLJ     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Dave G:

    It’s great that you keep punching those figures into the conversation.

    They need to be posted over and over, day after day, so all the newcomers to this site see them.

    I’m referring to these ones of course:

    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt ………………….. 37
    Prius ………………… 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570  

    (Quote)


  95. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    It’s great that you keep punching those figures into the conversation.

    They need to be posted over and over, day after day, so all the newcomers to this site see them.
    ________________________________

    Without any data to actually support the “typical” claim, what good are they?

    SHOW ME THE DATA!  

    (Quote)


  96. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    #91 BillR says “we can all expect to see Volts rolling off the assembly line later this year”

    LOL. Very funny but unfortunately very true. Tesla has found out the hard way that making cars is not as easy as you might think. I remember reading a report from a reporter covering the Volt who said that first he wondered why it took so long to make a car, and then, after he dug into the story and learned more about what was involved, he wondered how the manufacturers every made a car at all.

    Lots of parts. Lots of complexity.  

    (Quote)


  97. Marinko
    Vote -1 Vote +1Marinko     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    A couple questions Lyle for GM:

    1. Why is it going to take GM 2-3 years to get a right had drive model out? (for markets in UK, Australia, NZ, Japan)

    2. Why aren’t GM planning a simultaneous or as close to simultaneous global rollout?
    Surely the worldwide demand would allow a large 1st year production number enabling efficiencies of scale.  

    (Quote)


  98. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:42 pm

  99. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    #73 Dave G

    I’ve been reading concerns on this blog for some time that even though VOLT is a plug-in Hybrid and people will recharge at night, that somehow it will “not be widely accepted until a charging infrastructure exists across the country”.

    I have never understood that. It’s an EREV, so it should NOT need a charging station at your local 7-11, but many posts here claim that is needed…!

    Which is correct?  

    (Quote)


  100. Mark Bartosik
    Vote -1 Vote +1Mark Bartosik     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    RE #78,
    Statik sorry to hear you are ill, I was wondering where your comments were on the prior thread. No doubt illness to blame for minor error:

    Last year UK pound (GBP) peaked at about 2.08 USD for 1 GBP (not other way round), now it is more like $1.35 for 1 GBP.

    I too typically think in terms of a sort of historic rolling average, I tend to use about 1.65 USD per 1 GBP for a historic average.

    —————

    So in converting GBP / USD should we use current price of 1.35 or some sort of average (more like 1.65), or what?

    Other price confusing factors are:
    In UK there is a high sales tax (VAT), and prices in UK are usually quoted to public (but not always) inclusive of VAT, whereas in USA they are quoted exclusive of sales tax. Not sure what the VAT rate on cars is now, but general goods VAT rate has been 17.5%.

    UK is one of Europe’s higher priced car markets. So if there’s going to be price gouging expect it in UK.

    UK won’t have 150,000 mile battery warranty requirement.

    UK has good potential for a shorter electric only range, because car based commutes tend to be shorter on average than in US, as are total miles driven per year — hey it’s a smaller country.

    So we could conceivably be off by 30% in currency conversion?
    Could be 17% off with VAT?
    Could be off by a couple of thousand $ for warranty requirements.
    Could be 15% off just because GM is feeling around for a price point.

    Get well and best wishes to you Statik.  

    (Quote)


  101. Plug Free Volt
    Vote -1 Vote +1Plug Free Volt     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    Given some time (2 to 3 years) to prove battery robustness (in low numbers), I believe GM will eliminate the $10,000 warranty portion of the battery cost. Or, they may offer a version with 1/2 size – cost battery pack.

    These steps may reduce battery pack costs from $20,000 to $10,000 and thus, bring your $30k Volt to fruition.

    Put me down for one $30k Volt Gen II please ;>)  

    (Quote)


  102. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    GM readers

    could you please tell us how this price info could be correct and yet the volt seem to be hovering around $40,000.00 in the U S.

    Thank you  

    (Quote)


  103. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    By the way…

    For the last week, I’ve been attacked by those on the big GM forum even after providing data. They claim it isn’t “average” despite all the evidence to the contrary. So, not getting any here means there’s no way “typical” should be taken at face value.

    SHOW ME THE DATA!

    As for that report from over a year ago, there’s no detail. It’s just a summary.

    SMTD  

    (Quote)


  104. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    #99 CorvetteGuy Says: I’ve been reading concerns on this blog for some time that even though VOLT is a plug-in Hybrid and people will recharge at night, that somehow it will “not be widely accepted until a charging infrastructure exists across the country”.

    I have never understood that. It’s an EREV, so it should NOT need a charging station at your local 7-11, but many posts here claim that is needed…!

    Which is correct?
    ————————————————————————————–
    I believe people that advocate a charging station at your local 7-11 haven’t done the math.

    With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt ………………….. 37
    Prius ………………… 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570

    With this in mind, I believe it’s much better to concentrate on adding 110v power outlets to parking spaces in apartments and condos for overnight charging. Also, people with commutes over 20 miles each way could charge at work. Since only 20% of the U.S. falls into this category, our grid should be able to support that.

    But even without power outlets in apartments, condos, and at work, the Volt has the potential to be hugely successful. So all we really need is the Volt at a reasonable price. Once Voltec goes mainstream, then the other stuff will follow.  

    (Quote)


  105. Unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1Unni     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    i was looking on “Daewoo Lacetti Premiere”, this is cruze,

    City: 33.1 mpg (7.1 L/100Km). Highway: 49 mpg (4.8 L/100Km). Combined: 41.3 mpg (5.7 L/100Km) for Diesel.

    Please note all mpgs are in imperial. not US. the gas model should be lower than this. means there is no point in hoping cruze is a 40 mpg car .

    GM now knows people can find things with Internet. I didn’t find reviews on that till now. May be next time because this was a quick search. The car is in market from 2008 onwards.

    If i was given choice of decision on a cruze hybrid platform, i would put 2 or 4 in-wheel electric motors ( mostly max to 50 kw) , a 10 mile capable ultra capacitor or battery, 75 kw Generator and a very high efficient ICE for charging ( mostly max 3 cylinder, 800 -900 cc ), if use conventional engine but for sure i will look most efficient alternative design with less moving parts, high efficiency ( target 80%+) at a particular rpm band . Target will be 100 mpg in tough conditions and 200 at ideal as a car and can put price target at $17,000 at low end and 22k for awd version and will put 2+ bodies on the platform where one will be small SUV ( like tracker – 4×4 config ), one sedan and crossover.

    I am sure the above is possible because insight comes with a very complex power train which has more components than this and costs only 20 k. If I slip 2-3k from the price target still it will be great deal.

    As this is in public internet, please note some korean/japanese company is going to read and push this targets to there teams and come up with model, finish all testings and in market by the time cruze/Volt is out. Again GM back to asking more money.

    Even Ford may also show interest in this because they already have in-wheel motor technology etc developed in volvo and meets the 7 mile battery concept of the recent study they funded .  

    (Quote)


  106. Jeffhre
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeffhre     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    Butch 84

    I used to make some pretty cool 3 day investments. Sometimes six months can seem like a lifetime. I hope no one gets too excited about the news from Citi. Any operating profits at this point will just feed the bottomless pit of leveraged losses. What what Mr. market will decide when their 1st qtr numbers come out. It is nice to have some good news though, even if only for a few fleeting moments.

    Sam Y

    If you have access could you tell Mr. Murphy he needs to get a dictionary or a non-altered version of Wikipedia – seems like the article is full of certified daffynitions.  

    (Quote)


  107. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    #98 DonC,

    Have you been over to john1701a’s site?
    http://john1701a.com/

    After you click the link, I think it will be clear why john1701a ignores any data that shows the Volt outperforming the Prius.  

    (Quote)


  108. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    I think it will be clear why john1701a ignores any data that shows the Volt outperforming the Prius.
    _____________________________

    Where is this supposed Volt data?

    I’d sure like to see something real-world from Volt.

    For that matter, where is the “typical” data applicable to any vehicle?

    SMTD  

    (Quote)


  109. Jeffhre
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeffhre     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Dave G.

    Maybe you could show the scenario you devised once again that will result in your gallon per year numbers for the folks here, if you have a chance to.  

    (Quote)


  110. garrett graham
    Vote -1 Vote +1garrett graham     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    Honestly, I didnt bother to read the other post because there were a shit load of them, but to my knowledge the Europe isnt offering the $7,500 tax rebate so is this before that or are they doing one also, and is the Ampera really a 2011 as a 2012 or a 2012 as a 2012.  

    (Quote)


  111. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

    It seems to me that it just would be impossible at this point for GM to be able to provide us with a retail cost for Voltec technologies just right now. While very many buyers would snap up anything GM design standards would produce at anything less than what a Tesla would cost, which would mean the entire first production year…..very well beforehand, there just is no way that anything else than Voltec technologies are accumulating this enormous “green electric motoring pop culture” reputation (as a mindset for a carbon-dioxide-free-future) can even remotely compare. It is completely silly to even attempt to do so.
    I would love to be able to submit about a dozen television commercial production scripts because of this well-developed pop culture, while merging into the concept, the vast amounts of ICE and other technology which is NOT going to be needed for Voltec vehicles.
    Again, for the not-too-distant Voltec future, I am strongly warning auto repair shop techs (the ones who are open minded and will listen to me), that they had better learn as much as they can to remain competitive in the future due to fewer and fewer customers whom would still possess the incessantly ridiculous (future-declining numbers of) ICE technologies.
    The purposes to immediately align one’s philosophies with Voltec technologies is never due to the fact that it costs more or less than something else, these purposes are because we want to rid ourselves of the harsh costs (financial, environmental, and, yes, to not to have to do business with oil companies that bully their way to shove their products anywhere the sun doesn’t shine. I do not think that would include Shell.)
    But Voltec is certainly coming. And, as adverse that I am to the hostile way that our Austin city managers seemed to have been clearly intimidated and apparently bullied just recently by apparently some unnamed new natural gas interests, (I suspect that these same interests got to Honda as well to get them to make those 3,600 pounds-per-square-inch-pressure compressed natural gas ICE systems. Those sort of systems, it seems to me, are inherently the antithesis to the extremely-careful designs Honda Motors produces). These are the extremely-strong reasons in addition to my deep respect for GM design standards, that I will do everything possible to get a Volt.
    Dan Petit Austin TX.  

    (Quote)


  112. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    #107 Dave G. says “Have you been over to john1701a’s site?”

    No I hadn’t been but it’s fairly interesting. He has some good stuff on the site. The explanation of the drive system is of particular note in that it conclusively demonstrates why the a drive system like that found in the Prius can’t seriously compete with a plug-in serial hybrid.

    Both the motors and the ICE are always engaged, with the motor being responsible for turning the big gear. Consequently, if the ICE isn’t active, you can only move the drive by having the smaller M2 gear spin at very high rates (the M1 gear is so small it would have to spin even faster). This is why, contrary to the suggestions of some here, you can’t simply add a larger battery and have the Prius operate at higher speeds on the battery alone.  

    (Quote)


  113. JEC
    Vote -1 Vote +1JEC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    #107 Dave G. says “Have you been over to john1701a’s site?”
    ======================================================
    Linking your name to a your personal website is kinda scary!

    I guess everyone has their own thing, but I would feel creeped out if someone could read all about me and see me in a picture (which may be more scary for the viewer!)

    John you are a brave man.  

    (Quote)


  114. Inhaling in L.A.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Inhaling in L.A.     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    GM has stated that plans are to manufacture 60,000 Volt in the first 15 months of production. This being 10,000 in 2010 and 50,000 in 2011. GM has also stated a figure of up to 90,000 Volt in 2012.

    It seems that consumer demand and dealer mark up will support high prices until at least the end of 2011. The first 50,000-60,000 will be bought by people who earn $200,000+ a year and are willing to pay $40,000 per.

    This may be best for GM AND for the common working guy. Being that battery prices will fall. And overall quality will rise from real world driving experience feedback. The 2013 model Volt looks like the best deal.  

    (Quote)


  115. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

    Consequently, if the ICE isn’t active, you can only move the drive by having the smaller M2 gear spin at very high rates (the M1 gear is so small it would have to spin even faster).
    __________________________

    Since when is high RPM a problem for electric motors?  

    (Quote)


  116. BillR
    Vote -1 Vote +1BillR     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    SMTD!! Is this a variation of STD?

    Well, at the VoltNation event in NYC last year, one engineer noted that GM had 100’s of GB’s of data on the Malibu mules that were using the Voltec drive with only a small NiMH battery pack. I’m sure by now they have 100’s of GB’s of additional data.

    Somehow, I don’t think that is likely to be shared with the public.

    However, by piecing together various tidbits of information, it is possible to project the performance for the Volt.

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2541

    Also, it was announced at the Geneva Auto Show that the Volt will emit less than 40 grams of CO2 per km. A 50 mpg car would emit approximately 115 gCO2/km. Less than 40 grams equates to 140 mpg or greater.

    http://www.businesscar.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=7&storycode=4217&c=2&theme=0

    Not guaranteed, but a valiant estimation.

    BTW, this coorelates very well with the data from DonC’s link at # 98.  

    (Quote)


  117. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    @HyperMiler

    The Toyota Prius took over 5 years from conception to release (and that was with Engineering & testers working 3 shifts/day). GM is attempting to do the Volt in less than 4 years. I think they are ahead of the game if you ask me.  

    (Quote)


  118. Butch
    Vote -1 Vote +1Butch     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

    I agree, whoever keeps posting the “typical driving pattern” numbers needs to back it up with actual data. Anyone can pull numbers out of their @ss and post them on a message board, but without real data it is meaningless  

    (Quote)


  119. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    #109 Jeffhre Says: Maybe you could show the scenario you devised once again that will result in your gallon per year numbers for the folks here, if you have a chance to.
    ————————————————————————————–
    Sure. No problem.

    As plug-ins go mainstream, charging during the day will wreak havoc on our electrical grid. Plug-in experts agree that we should only consider charging overnight. So any typical driving pattern should be expressed as miles per day, for each day of the year. Since there was no data of this type available, I made up the following template as a rough typical driving pattern:
    • 30 days at 8 miles per day
    • 50 days at 16 miles per day
    • 240 days at 30 miles per day
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per day

    This accounts for yearly vacations, long drives on weekends, daily commutes, shorter trips after work, and shorter trips on weekends. It totals 11,309 miles per year, which is very close to the 12,000 miles used by many others for typical driving patterns. The driving pattern also accounts for 12 days of no driving, which seams reasonable.

    Using this template, I devised a spread-sheet to calculate gallons per year of any PHEV, EREV, or regular gas engine car:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls

    The spread sheet requires 3 inputs:
    • miles electric assist range
    • MPG during electric assist
    • MPG after electric assist

    For a PHEV (Prius plug-in, Vue plug-in), the gas engine still has to turn on for acceleration and high speed driving, so it’s better to specify the electric boost as something like 150MPG for the first 10 miles, and then 50MPG after that (i.e. miles electric assist range=10, MPG during electric assist=150).

    For an EREV, you have infinite MPG during the all-electric range, so I just use a big number for that (i.e. miles electric assist range=40, MPG during electric assist=1000000000).

    A regular gas engine car has no electric range/boost (i.e. miles electric assist range=0).

    I realize these are rough calculations, but given the data we have today, I think that’s all we can do at this point. So while it’s a ballpark estimate, I think it’s clear that the Volt is in a whole different league.

    Feel free to modify the spreadsheet to you own tastes.

    Hope this helps.  

    (Quote)


  120. ccombs
    Vote -1 Vote +1ccombs     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    V4? Gotta be an inline 4-cylinder.  

    (Quote)


  121. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    Toyota Prius took over 5 years from conception to release
    _______________________________

    From mid-1993 to Dec 1997 is a only over 4 years.

    That’s quite impressive considering how incredibly primitive design technology was then compared to now. Also, let’s not forget that GM already has extensive electric motor & battery experience from EV1, Two-Mode, BAS, and their fuel-cell development.

    And if Volt enthusiasts continue to boast about Volt being superior, they should deliver at least as much as the Prius supporters. In other words, prove it. Change only comes if you actually do something.

    SMTD  

    (Quote)


  122. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:36 pm

    @John1701a

    The idea was hatched in 1992. ALso Toyota already had over 20 years of playing with hybrids before the Prius.  

    (Quote)


  123. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    115 john1710a says “Since when is high RPM a problem for electric motors?”

    Never if you’re content with crippling drive train losses.  

    (Quote)


  124. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    If you’re talking the idea, Volt was hatched in 1998. One of the EV1 prototypes shown in Detroit was a series hybrid.

    By the way, an early prototype of Prius used a Cone & Belt CVT with an ultra-capacitor. It was later replaced with a Planetary CVT and NiMH battery.

    SMTD  

    (Quote)


  125. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    @John1701a
    Volt was a concept in Jan 2007 afer Bob Lutz saw the Tesla. Telsa did not exist in 1998.

    Regarding Volt data. Even if the “after 40miles” data is not known at this time, the fact that all electric = 0 gas alone is enough said.

    But my original post was to Hypermiler regarding devolopment time, not you, but thanks for chiming in. I know you will defend the Prius till your fingers bleed. (You know this is a Volt website right?)  

    (Quote)


  126. HyperMiler
    Vote -1 Vote +1HyperMiler     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    # 117 kdawg Says:

    > The Toyota Prius took over 5 years from conception to release (and that was with Engineering & testers working 3 shifts/day). GM is attempting to do the Volt in less than 4 years. I think they are ahead of the game if you ask me.

    Toyota Prius was the first vehicle to validate NiMH battery and that took a long time.
    With Lithium Polymer battery used in Volt, it was actually engineered and tested for another automaker(Hyundai) before GM signed on.  

    (Quote)


  127. kdawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1kdawg     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

    @ Hypermiler
    the battery had already been validated.. it was the cost that had not. It’s the same thing GM is going thru with Li-ion battery now. That’s why we dont have a formal cost for the Volt yet. (Unless its 2012 in the UK)  

    (Quote)


  128. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    John1701a, No Name Coward, and others:

    Tell you what. When the Volt has actually been out for as long as the Prius has been (as of today), you can come back here to compare apples to oranges … if you still have the nerve.

    Until then, there’s no sense in GM responding to your “data demands” in a public forum for competitors to benefit from.  

    (Quote)


  129. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    #40 (me):

    “Leapfrogging with the Volt is fine, but I strongly believe GM still needs something that can go head-to-head with a Prius/Insight; not only to prove something to US buyers, but to itself.”

    GM needs to prove that Volt is not the result of “failing” to meet the specific challenge of the Japanese: “We beat them at their own game; and dare them to play ours.”  

    (Quote)


  130. kent beuchert
    Vote -1 Vote +1kent beuchert     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    The numbers don’t add up for a sub $30K Volt. We recently learned that the Volt battery pack will cost in the vicinity of “hundreds” less than $1000 per Kwhr. If “hundreds” means three hundreds, that would cost out at 11,200 for the pack, or $4,800 less than the $40K
    quote for the car. That only takes us to around $35K, at the most optimistic. Or so it seems.  

    (Quote)


  131. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    Regarding Volt data. Even if the “after 40miles” data is not known at this time, the fact that all electric = 0 gas alone is enough said.
    ____________________________

    The purpose of providing data is to allow people to draw their own conclusion. Consumers aren’t going to spend their hard-earned money only an “enough said” comment.

    Claims of superiority are abundant, but without any proof. It’s like the price topic of this thread, just an estimate.

    The purpose is to dramatically reduce consumption. Prius helps with that, fighting the continued push of traditional vehicles like Cruze. Yet, Prius is constantly shunned here… with vague reasoning. How in the world will the battle with Cruze be won that way?

    SMTD  

    (Quote)


  132. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    #130 kent beuchert,

    The CEO of CPI essentially said the Volt’s packs costs $8000 today.

    Specifically, Dr. Prabhakar Patil, the CEO of Compact Power, Inc. said:
    • First, … automobile traction battery pricing is based upon end-of-life capacity and … the ratio of end-of-life to beginning-of-life is 75%.

    • Second, the automobile traction battery application is sized for a 70% depth of discharge…

    … these items together justify a 2.5x premium for the automobile traction battery application (or approximately $ 1,000/available kWh)

    We know from GM that the Volt’s battery is 8kWh available, and 16kWh total. CPI is saying that the total battery storage must be de-rated by 75% for end-of-life, and 70% for depth of discharge. 70% of 75% is around 50%, which lines up exactly with what GM said on available kWh.

    Bottom line: The Volt’s 16kWh battery costs around $8000 today.

    In addition, Dr. Patil says the price will be 1/4 to 1/2 of today’s cost in 5-10 years. Details here:
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html  

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  133. unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1unni     Says:
    March 10th, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    Was going through http://www.electrovaya.com/

    This is a Canadian lithium ion battery manufacturer. Tata is using cells from them for the Indica EV which is releasing this year in Europe. Raser also seems using their batteries and they make batteries in North America.

    Wondering GM checked them also :-) .  

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  134. unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1unni     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 12:34 am

    more : electrovaya works with phenix motors which makes SUEVs and SUET ( E for electric ) and they have a 10 minute rapid charge option.

    http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehicles/suv-specifications.php

    GM should look for M&A options if they cant handle volt properly.  

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  135. sudhaman
    Vote -1 Vote +1sudhaman     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 7:34 am

    go GM this is ur chance . make use and win the competition and regain the first place in the automotive industry  

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  136. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 7:56 am

    #80 Dave G said:

    With the recent posts, maybe we could all use some good news:
    Stocks: Biggest gains of ‘09
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/10/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2009031011

    The Dow gains 379 points, Nasdaq surges 7% and S&P 500 rallies 6.4% on Citigroup and possible limit on short selling.
    ====================
    …and don’t forget, GE surges 20%, lol.

    (WIll get out yet…must think happy thoughts)  

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  137. k-dawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1k-dawg     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 9:06 am

    @131 john1701a

    I dont know how else to pove to you that 1 > 0. Do you need me to draw you a chart or something?  

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  138. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 9:10 am

    Hi Dave G @ 132, your inference that “available” refers to the SOC window (50% of total) equates with the cost per “available” KWh may be valid, but perhaps not. Note that outside the window, the battery is “available” to receive regen braking energy (85% to 100% SOC) and the battery is available to provide acceleration energy during charge sustaining mode operation (0% to 30% SOC). So if these “availabilities” were included then we are back to 75% end of life availability and a cost of $12,000. In any even either price will decrease according to the article to at least $6,000 and perhaps even lower.  

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  139. Aaron
    Vote -1 Vote +1Aaron     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Responses to #47 — Aaron

    I’ve been following the Volt–I understand how it works–what I was pointing out was this blowhard leading people to believe this car was only suitable as a ’second car’. Asking questions that had been answered long ago, satisfactorily, to cast doubt on it’s the concept.  

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  140. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    I dont know how else to pove to you that 1 > 0. Do you need me to draw you a chart or something?
    ___________________________

    I’ve been watching consumer behavior toward hybrids for 9 years now. It’s not a question of which hybrid to buy, as most all of the Volt enthusiasts believe. It’s actually a matter of which vehicle within that automakers product-line. Those hoping to undermine know & exploit this.

    CRUZE vs. VOLT

    That’s what it will boil down to. Prius isn’t really the direct competitor it is painted to be here, nor is the equation as simple as “1 > 0″. Data will be provided by those resisting change in favor of CRUZE. They’ll take advantage of those loyal to GM, arguing how that vehicle half the price is a better buy than VOLT.

    Prius helps with that fight, providing lots of data which supports hybrids. Why some here can’t see that is truly amazing. Traditional vehicles dominate still and will continue to for quite awhile until GM hybrid sales finally catch up.  

    (Quote)


  141. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    2 more years of this? OMG!  

    (Quote)


  142. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    2 more years of this? OMG!
    _________________________

    Actually, it’s even longer.

    2 years and 40,000 miles is the for real-world data minimum demanded by consumers for purchase decisions.

    In other words, it only begins with the first delivery; hence… SMTD  

    (Quote)


  143. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    #142 john1701a:

    Yeah, I know it only too well.

    I’m not so sure about the 2 years and 40K miles. How many times have we seen people line up to pay over sticker for the new latest and the greatest car? I’m an “early adopter” for this technology, and I would certainly buy one the first year and take the risk of problems. But paying several thousand over sticker is a deal breaker for me.

    Even so, it seems to me that this phenomenon alone, coupled with the low projected production numbers, will keep most of us from seeing one until 2102 or so. And I hasten to acknowledge that this is hardly an original idea, as many have pointed it out here in the past.

    I strongly hope for the survival of GM. I am saving my money for a Volt, and not buying another car in the meantime. I loyally follow GM-Volt.com to try to keep track of the status of both. It’s just that some days, it all gets to be a bit much.  

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  144. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    john1701a:

    Here is the major flaw in your argument. You keep saying you need two years worth of real world data before you will consider the purchase a new vehicle. Yet you have already said you will buy a 2010 Prius as soon as it is available. If you follow your logic, you should not buy that model until 2012 at the earliest. And don’t come back with it is already a proven model. The 2010 is a new model, and should not be compared to a previous unit, anymore than the Volt should be compared to the EV-1.

    Your Prius bias blinds you…..

    I have tested a Prius, and I did not like it. It is my personal opinion. Right now, the Volt looks like the right vehicle for me. But once I get into it and take it for a test drive, that may not be the case. We really will not know until we have that chance.

    You are on the Volt fansite. What do you expect???  

    (Quote)


  145. fatbaby0
    Vote -1 Vote +1fatbaby0     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    Mmmm. Personally, this is disappointing to me. I have been a Japanese car fan, but am willing to switch to an American if it satisfies my needs. I have been looking for a second car for my commute (about 40 mi per day) and Volt seems to be the perfect one. At the same time, the cost of the car is my concern. Please tell me why I should choose Volt instead of Honda Insight which will be about 10K cheaper than this. I cannot see any…

    One more issue is based on my bias. I think the Volt concept seems to be more appropriate for many younger, suburban commuters, which tend to be big consumers of Japanese cars. If so, the price disadvantage of Volt to Honda Insight could be a serious issue. I don’t think people driving big sedans or SUVs would switch to a vehicle as this one. Pardon my bias if it offended you.  

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  146. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    You keep saying you need two years worth of real world data before you will consider the purchase a new vehicle.
    _________________________

    Nope, I never said that. It’s OTHER consumers, not me.

    They demand real-world data. Just refer to Consumer Reports for lots of examples of waiting for it. Before that duration has passed, the vehicle is deemed as “too new” still.

    It’s because of their demand that I’ve went to the trouble of documenting my real-world data. Some simply don’t care without it… which is a lesson some here still haven’t learned. It must be provided.  

    (Quote)


  147. Detfan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Detfan     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    I’ve said all along, $40,000 cost to build, less 25% subsidy, less $7,500 credit equals $22,500.00  

    (Quote)


  148. fatbaby0
    Vote -1 Vote +1fatbaby0     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    To Detfan (#147) OK. Then is the $7500 credit only for Volt not for Insight? I think the most important thing here is the relative price to competitive models.  

    (Quote)


  149. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    fatbaby0:

    The Honda is what is commonly called a parallel hybrid. This means that for almost all of the time, you will be running the gasoline engine, with a smaller assist from an electric motor using a small battery pack that you do not plug in to charge. Your mileage, according to the Honda website, will be 40 mpg city, and 43 mpg highway.

    The Volt is called a serial hybrid. For the first 40 miles, you will be running on just the battery pack, which you charge up at night with a standard 120V AC outlet. After that, a 4 cylinder gasoline engine kicks in automatically to power a generator to provide electricity to the electric motor. Only the electric motor drives the wheels. There is a very large argument about how to determine mileage, if you never use the gasoline engine, that has yet to be fully answered.

    So in your case, you should use almost no gas in your daily commute to work and back. And the cost to re-charge the battery pack should cost about $1.20 per night, depending on the electric rates in your area.

    Plus this car does not have to be considered as a second vehicle. If you want to take a long trip, the first 40 miles will be powered from the batteries. Then you will get 50 mpg when the gasoline engine starts up.

    It is not the answer to everyone. But for me, my gasoline consumption will be cut by over 90%, and that is important to me, and is worth a premium price for the vehicle. For you, that may not be the case.

    As far as the tax credit, it is dependent upon the size of the battery pack. The Volt, with a 16KWh pack, can receive the maximum credit. I do not know what credit would be available to the Insight. Perhaps someone else can answer that for you.

    One final thought. For the first few years, the Volt is expected to be more expensive, until the manufacturing capacity of the battery packs ramp up and those costs are lowered by the economies of scale. Then, probably with the second generation of the Volt, you should see much lower costs.

    I hope this helps.  

    (Quote)


  150. fatbaby0
    Vote -1 Vote +1fatbaby0     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    Jim I. Thanks for your detailed answer. Yes, it really helps.
    I still think that Volt should target people like me. To appeal those, the price in this article does not seem attractive. For GM, this car can send a message to consumers that they CAN compete against Japanese cars (At least for me, this is my first GM car that I have any interest.). Whatever technology is under the hood, one of the most important issues to many customers might be the price. I think Honda knows this too well and they will soon release a vehicle that will be a huge attraction to many people who could not afford previous hybrids. Please keep in mind that Insight will be in market NOW. In 2 years, it will evolve even more. I truly want to see an American car that can compete in the market and will wait for this car.  

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  151. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    March 11th, 2009 at 11:41 pm

    fatbaby0:

    If price was everything, we would all be driving a Kia RIO!!!

    I guess a lot of it will depend upon how long you keep your vehicles. I usually keep mine for about ten years. So I am going to use that as an example.

    A well equipped Honda Insight will cost $21,000, according to their website. I am using round numbers. A Volt with federal tax credit is expected to be about $33.000. So that makes the Volt $12,000 more up front. Over ten years that is $1,200 per year, or $100 per month. Since I currently spend more than that in gasoline now, even at $2.00 per gallon, I think it is a long term winner. Plus, I think it is a reasonably established position that gasoline is going to go back up in price, so that makes the long term economics even better. As a final thought, you have to consider that any current parallel hybrid requires gasoline to function at all. In my particular driving pattern with the Volt, I would only be using gasoline one day per week. So if there was any type of disruption in the gasoline supply, I would still be able to have working transportation for almost all of my needs.

    All I am really trying to say is that there is more to consider than the sticker price. The long term operational costs have to be considered….  

    (Quote)


  152. fatbaby0
    Vote -1 Vote +1fatbaby0     Says:
    March 12th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Jim I.

    I really appreciate all your comments. Also I heard about the new breakthrough in battery technology and one of the companies that made a contract with the developers is going to supply the batteries for GM! This must be a very good news for Volt.
    I also keep my car for about 10 years. I agree with your point about long-term cost. At the same time, I still think many customers will not be attracted to Volt simply because of the upfront price. Price can be everything when you compare only a small number of ‘electric’ vehicles. This may be only me but long-term cost argument may not be a strong point for Volt if you consider the resell value too. Volt might have a much higher resell value than other GM cars. But, as you may know, the brand image makes a big impact on resell value. In addition, the fuel cost for Insight might not be very bad even when it is compared to a pure-electric car.
    However, if Volt adopts the new technology and arms with better specs because of that, I will seriously consider it. But, I still think Volt may not be a big attraction to many existing Japanese car users. GM needs to take them back and that will require a big blow.  

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  153. Respin the spin cycle.
    Vote -1 Vote +1Respin the spin cycle.     Says:
    March 12th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    @ DonC 96
    “Tesla has found out the hard way that making cars is not as easy as you might think.”

    No, Tesla found out that working with weak drivetrain parts, designed for weak gas engines, that can’t handle superior electric drive torque and dealing with pricey, inconsistent suppliers is just as tough as they feared. They improved both issues as they’ve produced and sold their product, which is not designed to compete with the Volt, to satisfied retail customers. No business is easy.  

    (Quote)

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