2010 Prius Gets 50 MPG, Will Top Out Over $30,000, and Will Have Plug-in Version in 2010

168 Responses to “2010 Prius Gets 50 MPG, Will Top Out Over $30,000, and Will Have Plug-in Version in 2010”

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   Timaaayyy! Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 am

   Economy terrible, gas price way down, Prius sales way down, but its price going up? Huh?  
   
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   Ray Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 am

   September 2009… 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid in my driveway…
   Unless the 2010 Prius comes in cheaper.
   Personally I want a Volt but I really do not think that it will be in Central Alberta Canada before 2013.  
   
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   charlie h Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:50 am

   “Many people continue to debate whether the 2010 Prius or the 2011 Volt is the better choice.”

   I can’t imagine why anyone would debate this. Which IS the better choice? The 2009 Prius. It IS the one that’s available TODAY.  
   
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   Barkbeard Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:51 am

   This is a hybrid… not electric? no wonder its less than the volt. And an electric range of 20 miles?!?!!? lame  
   
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   charlie h Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:53 am

   Timaaayyy! writes, “Economy terrible, gas price way down, Prius sales way down, but its price going up? Huh?”

   The dollar has fallen off something like 14% against the yen. The Prius is built in Japan, in yen (so to speak), so it becomes more expensive here. Also, the 2010 projected price is for an improved vehicle.  
   
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   DonC Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 9:57 am

   The technology in the Volt is so advanced that the Prius is not really competition. And at $30K it’s about the same price after rebate.

   However, the new Prius may be a Honda Insight killer. From the reviews the Insight isn’t exactly fun to drive. Plus it looks like the old Prius, which can’t garner it any style points as the old Prius starts to look stale. Unless gas spikes I’d say that Honda is in trouble with the Insight unless gas goes back up to $4/gallon, which would make all the fuel efficient cars big sellers. The $5K price differential for the Insight is probably not enough to account for the updated styling, better fuel economy, superior performance, and superior handling of the new Prius.  
   
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   N Riley Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 10:12 am

   Sure wish it was GM introducing a car like the Prius. Wouldn’t that be great. Don’t get me wrong. I am glad the Volt is coming up, but wouldn’t it have been great if GM had a Prius like car for the past couple of years to help them at this time of need?  
   
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   Starcast Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 10:14 am

   The Volt looks better all the time!

   The plug in Pissis may cost more then the Volt. What a joke.

   The old Pissis was ugly but now it may be the ugliest care on the road! (sorry honda element)

   I rented a Pissis in Florida in January after 2 days I took it back. I wanted to see what they were like. My wife said I needed to take it back so I wouldn’t keep bitching every time I tried to get on the expressway. I took it back and got a HHR. Wow I was shocked that was a very good car. Over the next 2 weeks I got 30.4 miles per gallon and loved driving the car. the HHR was tight and very little road noise. Not sure what they cost but the HHR was a very nice little car. The Pissis? Lets just say I will never drive one again. I have owned a few non American made cars and they were good but I allways said if the American cars were close to as good I would buy the American car. Today I think the American cars are not just close they are better.  
   
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   Right Lane Cruiser Says:
   March 3rd, 2009 at 10:15 am

   The new Prius and the second generation Insight are targeted at completely different audiences — they aren’t in the same class size at all. Having sat in both (at the Detroit Auto Show) I can tell you that though room for the driver is sufficient (I’m 6′5″) in the Insight, the rear seat is a joke for anyone approaching 6′2″ or so. By comparison the Fit had more room for the driver (by a little) and way more room for the back seat (I fit just fine back there). That doesn’t make it a bad vehicle (how often would I be in the back seat of my own car? How many of my passengers are likely to be close to my height?), but it does have compromises. The HCH has better fit and finish and taller highway gearing. The Insight is targeted at people who would be buying a smaller car anyway and priced so that they can choose a hybrid (and the improvement in fuel economy that brings) without much monetary pain.

   The new Prius really doesn’t start at much more than the current generation does, but it has serious upgrades to suspension, steering, power, efficiency, and amenities. Toyota has improved the vehicle in nearly every way and is also trying to appeal to a larger group of people by offering high end options for those who are accustomed to luxury transportation. This is an entirely different segment of the population from the one Honda is focused on for the Insight.

   I still prefer the Voltec system because I feel it is the right solution for the problem. It approaches oil usage from the standpoint of an electric vehicle that relies on oil occasionally for extra distance. The Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive comes at it from the other side — it is a gasoline powered vehicle that relies upon electricity occasionally for extra distance. The power-split device (not really a CVT, but it acts like one) is an elegant engineering solution but the whole system is quite complicated (electronically) and requires serious computer control to work properly. Mechanically the system is quite robust, but I’d never call HSD simple. Voltec on the other hand is extraordinarily simple if you ignore the range extender. You can swap out the gas generator for something simpler — like more batteries. It takes the end game solution (full electric propulsion) and steps it down a little to make it more affordable/feasible/(fill in the blank here). The Prius elevates gasoline propulsion instead.

   Both are good systems, but ultimately I think GM has the correct (and simpler) solution. Whether or not I can afford it is a completely different matter altogether.  
   
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    Neutron Flux Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:17 am

    The real killer will be the doubling of the VLF in Ca. and sales taxes for new vehicles. Buy used & shop the internet will be the new Moto for Ca. Who wants to spend over a grand a year for VLF for a Volt? NPNS  
    
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    Rashiid Amul Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:18 am

    From the article,
    ……global sales of those in 2010.Those plug-in third generation Priuses will use lithium ion batteries, have an electric range less than 20 miles, and will cost under $42,000. Exactly how much under we do not know.

    ————–
    That puts it in price competition with the Volt.
    The Volt gets twice the EV distance, so the Volt should win hands down in 2010.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Don’t worry about the price of gas giving the Prius or the Insight any trouble. I promise you, the price of gas will rise. Just the stuff in the 2010 Federal Budget that is being proposed is going to cause all kinds of energy, including electricity, to rise very fast and stay higher than ever. Our government is going to “tax” all energy sources because of environmental effects. We won’t see those changes for about a year, but after then they are going to be a real wet blanket for our economy and will contribute to dragging it down. I just hope the economy can rebound well before so it will be able to handle the new laws, regulations and taxes that are coming.

    The Volt is the better choice over the Prius or the Insight. Not doubt about it. The biggest hit the Volt takes is the 4 person seating versus 5 passengers in the other two.  
    
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    ThombDbhomb Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Maybe the TH!NK city will be the Prius/Insight killer.  
    
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    Bradyb Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:26 am

    No one is buying Prius anyway, their sales numbers are terrible. Who wants to spend more money on a new car that gets better mileage? Gas is still less then $2 and it doesn’t make sense to buy a Prius and get 20% better mileage then your average $15K economy car for almost twice the price.

    The volt is an electric car that I can drive 40 miles everyday with out using a drop of fuel. No one is offering an affordable midsize electric car right now. What’s the closest, the $80K Fiskar?  
    
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    Paul-R Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Bailout-Time For Toyota:

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jTG7SuUsayqE6bO9GPluAfU5blewD96MIFOO1

    TOKYO (AP) — Toyota’s financing unit is in talks with a Japanese government-backed bank on possible lending, the automaker said Tuesday, underlining the serious woes facing the car industry amid plunging global sales.  
    
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    john1701a Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 am

    The car offers high end options like automatic parking and a solar roof that powers a ventilation fan. This might make it more costly.

    MIGHT! Of course it will.

    Not mentioning the other features also included in the high-end package is reason to be concerned about objectivity. It makes the $30,000 very misleading, especially since the included LKA (Lane Keep Assist) is a luxury feature you won’t find on any other vehicle in the same class.

    $24,500 is a realistic expectation for the base model, which itself is nicely loaded…

    Standard Interior

    • Tilt/telescopic adjustable steering wheel with audio and HVAC controls with Touch Tracer Display
    • Multi-information Display with energy monitor, fuel consumption history, hybrid system indicator andodometer with twin tripmeters.
    • Central instrument display with digital speedometer, instant fuel consumption, fuel gauge, shift-leverindicator.
    • Air conditioning with electric A/C compressor
    • Eco, EV and Power mode
    • Auto up/down on all windows
    • Push button start
    • Cruise control
    • Driver’s seat with vertical adjustment
    • Dual sunvisors with driver and front passenger vanity mirrors
    • 60/40 split rear seat
    • Power door locks
    • Seatback pockets
    • 12v power outlets (2)
    • Tonneau cover

    Standard Exterior

    • P185/65 R15 all-season tires on 15-inch aluminum alloy wheels
    • Color-keyed foldable power heated side mirrors
    • Driver door Smart Key entry system with push button start and remote illuminated entry
    • Aerodynamic multi-reflector projector-beam headlamps with auto-off
    • Rear window electric defogger with timer and intermittent wiper
    • Aerodynamic rear deck spoiler
    • Roof-mounted XM Satellite radio antenna and wiring harness
    • High Solar Energy Absorbing (HSEA) glass
    • Washer-linked variable intermittent windshield wipers

    Standard Audio

    • AM/FM/single-CD with MP3/WMA playback capability, auxiliary audio mini-jack, six speakers and satellite capability

    Standard Safety

    • Driver and front passenger advanced airbags, driver and front passenger seat-mounted side airbags, driver knee airbag and front and rear seat side curtain airbags
    • Side-impact door beams
    • Front and rear energy-absorbing crumple zones
    • Three-point front seatbelts with pretensioners and force limiters, ALR/ELR retractors on all passenger seatbelts, three-point seatbelts in all five seating positions
    • Star Safety System: Regenerative Anti-Lock Brakes (ABS) with Brake Assist (BA), and Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD) Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) and Traction control (TRAC)
    • Active headrests
    • Child protector rear door locks
    • Adjustable front seatbelt shoulder anchors
    • Engine immobilizer

    .  
    
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    HyperMiler Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:29 am

    It’s the strong yen forcing a price raise across the Toyota line up, especially the ones imported from Japan. Toyota doesn’t care about sales volume at this point, they must not lose money.  
    
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    Stanley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Given a choice of a GM or Toyota, people choose Toyota over the percieved quality difference. If the Prius has anywhere similar specs and price, the Volt is going to be in trouble. The Prius already has years of brand recognition as THE green car and no one will come along and just knock them down. The only shot the Volt has is to overdeliver on specs and undercut on price, which will be very tough in this economy. All things equally, the Prius continues to rule.  
    
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    Van Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am

    Lets see, if the base price is $24,500, and you put $5,500 of options on it, you get a non-plug in Prius for $30,000. Now if you remove $2,000 worth of NiMH and install $6000 worth of Li-on, you get a $34,000 fully loaded Prius Plug-in. Time will tell.  
    
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    The Grump Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 am

    #10 Neutron Flux – Please explain what a “VLF” in California actually is, for us people who live on the opposite end of this country. Thanks!  
    
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    HyperMiler Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:35 am

    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25128449-662,00.html

    Plug-in Prius has an AER of 8.1 mile @ 62 mph. Engine kicks in after either limit is reached.  
    
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    HyperMiler Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 am

    With Plugin Prius’s 8.1 miles AER limit, it turns out Japan Inc is indeed falling behind Americans and Koreans in automotive Li-Ion battery race. The future of hybrid war looks interesting with latest developments.

    Who could have thought Toyota could fall behind in hybrid tech; but that’s what’s happening right now.  
    
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    Bruce Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 am

    “Who wants to spend more money on a new car that gets better mileage? Gas is still less then $2 and it doesn’t make sense to buy a Prius and get 20% better mileage then your average $15K economy car for almost twice the price.
    The volt is an electric car that I can drive 40 miles everyday with out using a drop of fuel. ”

    You just totally conflicted yourself. You want to spend $38k on a Volt that doesn’t use fuel when you can get a average $15k economy car. It would probably take 30 years if ever to recoup the fuel cost in the difference between a $15K gas car and a $38k Volt, even if gas is expensive. Get a spreadsheet and calculate it. If you want a Volt fine, but recognize it wouldn’t save money in your scenario you laid out.  
    
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    CorvetteGuy Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 am

    If the banks don’t start lending money soon for people to buy cars, then the question is moo. You know, a cow’s opinion. It doesn’t matter.  
    
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    Schmeltz Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:43 am

    “Those plug-in third generation Priuses….will cost under $42,000. Exactly how much under we do not know.”

    Let me get this straight….a Plug-in Prius is projected to cost $40-42,000 and GM is projecting the same price for the Volt, and everyone and their Uncle condemns the GM folks like their out of their minds??? Looks like the going price for anything with a plug is going to be in the $40 grand neighborhood folks. And not even Toyota can do much to skirt that issue it seems.  
    
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    nataraj Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Prius is not going to sell many at 30K. 25K I guess is about the limit.

    But there are separate markets at below 20K (insight) and 25K (prius). It is a good thing that there are high fuel economy cars in more segments.

    To reduce dependence on fossil fuels, we need to double the fuel efficiencey of our nation’s car fleet. All the hybrids and electrics are useful for that.  
    
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    Paul-R Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Hopefully soon, socialists like President Obama will stop trying to destroy the US economy, the economy will recover, gas prices will soar when it recovers, credit will start to flow, and then cars like the Volt and the new Prius will be the hot ticket.  
    
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    DaV8or Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    No debate for me. I have no interest in the Prius or the Insight. If the Volt never happens, I still won’t be buying them. I’m only interested in electric drive and if I can’t have that, I’ll keep what I have until I can.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:45 am

    There is just not enough information out about either of the two cars, Prius or Insight, to make a real determination as to their “value”. We know the Prius “improves” on the current 2009 Prius. We don’t know much about the Insight except pictures. At least I don’t. The one thing that disappointed me about the Insight is the size of the car. I was hoping it would be larger than it will be. Honda is kind of like GM when it comes to hybrids. They approached them with a dis-connected type of approach and tried to roll them into their current line-up of cars with not distinguishing marks to really set them apart. Toyota, to their credit, set the Prius out as a distinctive car and marketed it the same. I thing that is one reason Toyota’s other hybrids are not doing as well as the Prius. With the Insight, Honda now has a distinctive car labeled as a hybrid. The original Insight was just too limited to be successful.

    It is not surprising that Toyota is talking about $42,000 or so for the plug-in Prius. They want to maximize their price to take advantage of any rebates that may be offered and still make money on the sale. Not unlike what GM did with the Volt’s price as it kept climbing and climbing. It has probably pretty well settled above the $40,000 mark itself knowing it will be available for the $7,500 rebate to get its cost to the consumer lower. I can’t blame them for doing it this way. I would do the same, I suspect.  
    
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    HyperMiler Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:47 am

    #25 Schmeltz Says:

    > Let me get this straight….a Plug-in Prius is projected to cost $40-42,000

    And an AER of 8.1 miles.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:53 am

    #16 ohn1701a

    Thanks for the updated information in your comment. I know more about the Prius than I did before. It is quite an impressive list. And I spotted several new ones over the 2008/2009 Prius I test drove.  
    
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    wirenutjd Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 am

    The best car is the VW Jetta TDI Diesel, fun to drive, fast, handles great and can get 58.8mpg, all for less than 25K. The Honda is next because of its projected price of 20K, then a Mini Cooper / Prius tie for third and the Volt not yet “in-there” because it’s not available yet. Sorry, but that’s the reality of it.  
    
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    Dave G Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Interesting chart in the latest Consumer Reports:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/cr_car_chart.jpg  
    
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    Worth its weight in gold. Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:01 am

    • Eco, EV and Power mode

    I wish every vehicle had this.

    “If you drive like a hoon, your mileage may suck.”

    As usual, how you drive, is much, much, much more important than what you drive.

    Off to deliver a bale of hay in a Prius.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am

    #23 Bruce

    I am sorry, but where were you when we decided that the reason to purchase the Volt has nothing to do with the cost of gas or the cost of the Volt? Surely you know why most of us here prefer the Volt? The price of gas has absolutely nothing to do with the equation for a good number of us. If it did, we would all be riding scooters.  
    
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    Mitch Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 am

    #15 PaulR

    I posted this earlier in the Ampera thread too.. The mighty T asking for possibly $2 Billion USD in loans just shows how bad the market actually is, and as I posted inthe other thread (just for the trolls lol) Is Toyota so short sighted that they didn’t save ANY of the 1+TRILLION yen (yes Trillion!!) they made LAST YEAR ALONE!! poor bastards should have seen it coming…lol..like th trolls say..they made a profit every year since what..1950? and THEY NEED a LOAN?!?!? lol…

    Granted its no where near what the NA makers have asked, but it DOES show how bad things are…  
    
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    Adrian Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am

    The Volt is about changing to a better future. Problem is, the price and savings aren’t here as of today or probably in 5 years. Sort of like buying a 42″ LCD TV 2 years ago. You bought it because you wanted it, not because it made sense $$ wise. Depending on how you drive it could take 5-12 years to see a return on investment.

    It is a better investment to buy a wind powered energy device for your house (factoring in your $ per kWhr) than a Volt. But again, that isn’t the point of the Volt right now.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:19 am

    #36 Mitch

    When I drive by a local Toyota dealership and see Tundra’s with $8,000 off I know they are having a tough time selling those gas guzzlers. Of course, the Tundra is the only gas guzzler Toyota is trying to sell and can’t. All of their SUVs and trucks are bad on gas mileage. Only their cars have decent mileage with the best being the smallest. That is nothing unusual though.

    Times are tough for them all.  
    
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    Casadore Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:23 am

    Does anyone remember what the first VCR’s cost?  
    
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    GM Volt Fan Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am

    After looking at the Opel Ampera for a few days, I think I like the Ampera over the Volt a little more …. IF they redid that damn headlight design. It reminds me of an American Indian in warpaint or something. I like the center part of the front end … the air intake grilles. I’d like the tail lights to be a little bigger though. People are just used to bigger ones I think. The rest of the exterior looks fine.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/geneva-2009-opel-ampera-reveal/1398114/  
    
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    Right Lane Cruiser Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Just to be clear, that 8.1mi AER in the Plug-In Prius is at a speed of 62mph — drive slower and you’ll get more range (just like the Volt).

    Also, we already know that package options will raise the price of the 2010 Prius $10-12K over the base price when fully loaded. I don’t know how many will buy a $36K Prius, but that’s where the “under $42K” figure is coming from.  
    
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    Jackson Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:45 am

    For Volt, I have to wait

    1) For release (on or off schedule),

    2) Release in Atlanta (or non-CA / DC, fill in the blank)

    3) Availability at a price I can pay (and before someone invokes it, a tax credit isn’t the same thing as a rebate, and not everyone will be able to take full advantage of it).

    TALL PALL can continue to count down to point #1, but it’s a meaningless metric for most people who post here.

    If my loyal old Saturn (last of the SL2s!) can’t make it all the way to point #3, I’ll be looking seriously at something like a hybrid Fit, which will be out long before then, and should be < $20K in 2009 dollars.

    Prius has a disadvantage which the revamp may or may not affect: I don’t know many guys who drive them. Part of the “reputation” includes being loved by female drivers. Could be Toyota is attempting to remedy this (and I doubt it will succeed).  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Is a Prius ‘topping out’ at 30K outlandish?

    The whole premise of this thread seems a little biased, like we are trying a little too hard, (which is understandable considering we are all on GM Volt forum). As far as I understand it, we still know nothing of the price, but we are pretty confident doing guess-timates.

    The way I see it, we are trying to compare the fully loaded to the nines, Prius at 30K…with the base standard, rock bottom price of the Volt.

    How about some dollars to donuts here:

    If anyone here things a ‘loaded Volt’ isn’t going to cost $50,000…or thinks they are going to be able to stroll into a dealership and pick up a ‘base model’ Volt at any time in the next 3-4 years, you should check the mail, you may have already won the Publisher’s Clearing House sweepstakes.  
    
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    George K Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:51 am

    ” Pricing isn’t set, but when asked whether the sticker for a loaded 2010 Prius will top $30,000, Doug Coleman, product manager for the Prius, said, “I wouldn’t doubt it.”
    - – - – - – -
    No kidding. A loaded ‘09 Prius will top $30,000.

    No doubt, the new Prius is better, but it isn’t enough improvement for me to trade in my trusty ‘05. However, I would be eying the PHEV Prius if it weren’t for the Volt’s coming.

    =D~~~~  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 am

    I tend to not put much stock in that ‘autocar’ article either.

    Two things:

    1.) They say, “expect a sub-£30k price tag,” (which according to my math works out to be 40K) on the plug-in Prius but gives no reference, or quote to where they just got it from…sounds like they are just pulling numbers out of the air

    2.) “it is not yet set in stone, but it’s expected to be no more than 20 miles” — by who? I have never heard this…ever. On the good side…I’d love to have another option with this much range, but I doubt it. Sounds like another unreferenced random factoid created by magic.  
    
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    Luke Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:57 am

    DonC,

    The technology in the Volt is so advanced that the Prius is not really competition. And at $30K it’s about the same price after rebate.

    Yeah, except that I drove a paid-off 2004 Prius to work this morning. I drove a Volt blog today. Big difference.

    The plug-in Prius will get full consideration from us, because the complex-but-proven technology has worked well for us for a little more than 100k miles, according to the odometer in the car I drove this morning.

    I like the way the Volt looks and, as a resident of the Midwest, i’d love to buy American and have the car built by my regional-neighbors. But a 20-mile AER would be fine for my around-town passenger-car needs. I could still use something that can haul plywood, but we’re a two-car household at the moment — and the Toyota Prius (daily-driver) and beat-up old Ford Ranger (for hauling heavy objects) combination is efficient and capable.  
    
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    Jake M Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 am

    #45
    Totally agreed. You have to compare base price to base price. Options are options. Lets try to be somewhat objective here.  
    
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    GXT Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    6. DonC

    I don’t think I could disagree with you more.

    The Insight is already doing very well with Honda already talking about increasing production. In a down economy, 50+ MPG for sub $20K is a great combination. If the next Prius is 20% $$ let alone 50% $$ more than the Insight then it will be no “Insight killer”.

    As for “fun to drive” neither the Prius nor the Insight is a 370Z, but from all accounts I have read the Insight is much better to drive than the currrent Prius. Based on Toyota’s track record there is no reason to believe the next Prius (or any Toyota for that matter!) will be fun to drive and every reason to believe the Insight will have better handling.

    As for the looks, there is little doubt in my mind that the Insight is better looking than the current or the next Prius. But I should state that in my mind both the interior and the exterior of the next Prius is horrible.

    As for the Volt being so advanced… does it park itself like the next Prius?   
    
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    GXT Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    21 and 22 HyperMiler,
    First, I don’t see anything in your link about the 8.1 mile range. At the same time I don’t entirely doubt it. But if you are going to say the plug-in prius has an “8.1 mile AER limit”, then I look forward to your posts about the Volt’s perhaps “25 AER Limit”.  
    
    (Quote)

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    GXT Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Oh, and Lyle, you DON’T “know the Volt will cost close to $40,000”.  
    
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    GXT Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Re my post #49,

    I see the comments about 13 KM now, but my point still stands… the Volt isn’t going to near 40 miles on the highway either.  
    
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    Arch Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    http://www.mlive.com/businessreview/annarbor/index.ssf/2009/03/general_motors_has_already_pro.html

    Take Care
    Arch  
    
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    Luke Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    wirenutjd @32,

    The best car is the VW Jetta TDI Diesel, fun to drive, fast, handles great and can get 58.8mpg, all for less than 25K. The Honda is next because of its projected price of 20K, then a Mini Cooper / Prius tie for third and the Volt not yet “in-there” because it’s not available yet. Sorry, but that’s the reality of it.

    You’re close — but a little off. I’m a former owner of a VW Jetta TDI. It really is a fun car to drive, handles great, and it’s efficient. But it’s not the best car for everyone.

    My particular 2001 VW Jetta GLS TDI had a 4-speed 01M automatic transmission(see oilhammer’s famous rant on http://www.tdiclub.com). I had several transmissions, actually — I don’t remember if the final count was 5 or 6 transmissions. My car spent half of the time that I owned it in the shop. If I’d purchased the manual transmission version of it, I would have averted that problem — but then my girlfriend wouldn’t have been able to drive on road-trips. The DSGs that are available on newer models may be much better. I’ve only owned one car with a planetary-gear automatic transmission, but I’ve owned more planetary-gear automatic transmissions that I have manual transmissions. I also spent an awful lot of time chasing check-engine lights because of a turbo-overboost condition with my copy of VAG-COM. I switched out a few sensors which helped, but didn’t completely solve the problem.

    After a few thousand miles the quirks caused by it’s dieselness weren’t a big deal. It was great with cold (<15F) high-altitude starts when I took it to Colorado. I absolutely *LOVE* the torque of the diesel and the precise handling of the car — and the engine sounding like a sewing machine made out of hammers was pretty cool, too. Plus, the leather interior with heated seats and the sunroof made me keep loving the car. Having to pay a little attention to what blend of fuel that I put into it became second-nature.

    I sold the car when my lifestyle changed and I didn’t need to spend as much time on the highway. After all of the transmission problems, driving low-speed in town made me nervous, because I spent way too much time listening and feeling for the next transmission failure — and I never really got the engine warmed up before I got to the other end of town. Borrowing my girlfriend’s Prius made more sense, especially since it’s more fun to go places together.

    Even after the transmission mess, I still love the TDI cars. That’s saying a lot, because the car was an expensive and protracted mess by any measure. But calling the VW TDI cars “the best car” is a little naive — I wouldn’t recommend this car for my retired non-mechanical non-electronic mother under any circumstances. She doesn’t have the money, skills, or patience to muck about with a complex piece of machinery, no matter how beautiful of a machine it happens to be.

    Alas, my current lifestyle doesn’t lend itself to another TDI — a Prius is a much better match for running around town, and the Ranger is a much better tool for hauling heavy objects. Too bad I can’t get a diesel-powered compact truck, or a diesel-backed EREV compact pickup truck — I could convince my brothers that it was a homeowner-sized locomotive.   
    
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    Timaaayyy! Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    #52 Arch

    Thanks for the link.

    “Our confidence in their ability to deliver on the required power range, safety and durability has grown rather dramatically,” Kruse said of the early test vehicles.

    The Volt really was a crapshoot, eh? Blind squirrel, me thinks.  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Ford, as always, is first out for February Carpocalypse:
    ————-
    Ford sales dive 48 percent as auto slump continues

    DETROIT (AP) — Ford Motor Co. says its U.S. sales fell 48 percent in February, proof that huge rebates and low-interest financing aren’t enough to entice fearful consumers to make a major purchase

    The Dearborn, Mich., automaker sold 99,060 vehicles last month, compared with 192,248 the same month in 2008. Other automakers report their sales later Tuesday.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Ford-sales-dive-48-percent-as-apf-14527351.html;_ylt=AhHF4Y_tBfIMwuwKDZ9ndta7YWsA

    Side note: VW also out. They were off about 17% (not too shabby) on sales of 13,660, off from ‘08 @ 16,556.  
    
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    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    #43 Statik

    Thanks, I needed that splash of cold water in my face. It sure feels good to know you are still on the job. Keep us straight, Statik.  
    
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    Luke Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    GXT @ 48,

    As for “fun to drive” neither the Prius nor the Insight is a 370Z, but from all accounts I have read the Insight is much better to drive than the currrent Prius. Based on Toyota’s track record there is no reason to believe the next Prius (or any Toyota for that matter!) will be fun to drive and every reason to believe the Insight will have better handling.

    The Prius is what it is — and it is not a sports car. It is not a heavy hauler. It’s not a luxury car. It is a small practical household runabout that that’s good for the occasional road-trip. It’s a nicely-optimized household transportation appliance. But some of us like it that way!

    If you’re looking for a car that’s fun to drive, you should probably be looking at something else. The BMW Z3 comes to mind.

    P.S. I just wish I could drive the Prius to work on the electric motor alone — and $DIETY knows I’ve tried!  
    
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    George K Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    #49 GTX
    “21 and 22 HyperMiler,
    First, I don’t see anything in your link about the 8.1 mile range.”

    Yes, HyperMiler was converting the “13 km” to miles.

    This was close to the figure Toyota claimed was used for their test PHEV’s. I believe 3 went to Calif. and more went to Europe for testing last year.

    They wired together 2 of the current NiMH Prius batteries and increased their range of battery usage from 30% to something much higher, not concerned with battery life for the tests.

    So, when their PHEV comes out, I would guess that the 8 miles is the minimum and it could be as high a 18 (i’m guessing, of course), with Li-ion batts.

    It should prove very interesting for a lot of people. But, remember, it is still a parallel hybrid.

    =D~~~~  
    
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    JP Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Quoting Consume Reports is just ridiculous when it comes to automobiles. I have been reading that magazine for years and they are patently biased when it come to cars for some strange reason. (Not other things however, as far as I can see).

    Buick is probably the highest quality car company on the planet currently. Most people just don’t know it yet (or can’t accept that an American car company could possibly be the best).

    And many of General Motors (and Ford’s) other cars are as good as any Toyota or Honda, and are far better looking in my opinion. And, of course, the truck world is ruled by American makes. But that’s for another website.

    What we are dealing with here as far as perception goes is a 20-30 year cultural lag. It takes about that much time for new realities and truths to become apparent in mainstream thinking.

    Given time, and the correct moves, GM will probably rule the world again. The Japanese know this and are (I trust) starting to sweat bullets.  
    
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    Don Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    I get the feeling that Toyota feels sorry for GM and is giving them a head start by delaying their plug-in for a year. :-/  
    
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    Jake M Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    #59

    Consumer report is ridiculous because they don’t agree with you? Actually they are the best source we have for non industry sponsored, independent testing. They use actually things like hard data on repairs, warranty claims, etc to get those reliabilty reports. I’ll take that any day over opinion and conjecture, which is what you seem to be offering. Don’t bash the messanger just because they report what you don’t want to hear. German and Japanese quality is better, the data doesn’t lie.

    BTW: I happen to own a Chrysler which is the worst on that list for test score and reliablity, but I’m OK with that.  
    
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    hypermiler Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    # 58 George K Says:

    > They wired together 2 of the current NiMH Prius batteries and increased their range of battery usage from 30% to something much higher, not concerned with battery life for the tests.

    My understanding is that the LiIon battery prototype for plugin Prius has a capacity of 3 kwh, roughly double the capacity of NiMH battery. The reason capacity is only 3 kwh is because LiIon battery pack has to be similar to current NiMH battery pack that it is replacing in sizes.

    A $10,000~15,000 premium for 3 kwh battery is kinda excessive.  
    
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    Don Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    #20 . . . VLF = Vehicle License Fee . . . a fee hike in attempts to help reduce our massive deficit.  
    
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    john1701a Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    A $10,000~15,000 premium for 3 kwh battery is kinda excessive.
    ______________________

    Where in the world did that nonsense come from?

    Clearly, that is incorrect. Even the Hymotion aftermarket upgrade doesn’t cost that much for so little.  
    
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    Timaaayyy! Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Reality checks please:

    http://www.cnbc.com//id/29490930?__source=yahoo%7Cheadline%7Cquote%7Ctext%7C&par=yahoo

    “Ford posted a 55 percent decline in sales for its Volvo brand, which it is reviewing for a potential sale.” Sell it on Craigslist for $1.

    And got my Automobile mag yesterday. What world are they living in? “No boring cars”, I know, BUT, it’s the end for a lot of the expensive vehicles they’re reviewing. Gonna be a buyers’ mkt wet dream.  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    Toyota is out with February Sales now:

    Toyota Feb U.S. vehicle sales off adj. 37.3 pct
    109,583 units, compared to 182,169 in 2008

    http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN0320267120090303?rpc=44  
    
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    john1701a Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:14 pm

    I’m a former owner of a VW Jetta TDI. It really is a fun car to drive
    _________________________

    How come owners never actually define what “fun” actually means?

    You mean “stealth“, when the engine shuts off but you continue to drive down the road up to 42 MPH in total smooth & silent electricity?  
    
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    Schmeltz Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    #43 Statik:

    “The way I see it, we are trying to compare the fully loaded to the nines, Prius at 30K…with the base standard, rock bottom price of the Volt.”

    A more suitable comparison is the next iteration of the Prius that Lyle mentions at the end of the article–a Plug-in Prius for “under $42,000″. This upcoming version of the Prius is the one that will fight the Volt face to face–not the current generation without the plug. In that comparison, your more than likely getting a Prius that will use more gas than a Volt, and cost the same money. We shouldn’t continue to compare a current hybrid (without a plug) to the Volt, as the plug-in car will (for the next few years anyway) cost more.

    Like I said in post #25, it’s looking like any car that will get plugged in in the next few years will be in the $40,000 range. Ford has all but confirmed this as well, (see recent article on this site referring to future plug-in Escape and all-electric Focus). Technology costs money–unfortunately.  
    
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    sucotronic Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    This isn’t nothing spectacular, 5l./100 km. is very normal for european cars. In fact, we have small engines (1.3 diesel) that have a mileage of 60 mpg.  
    
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    jeffhre Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    sucotronic #69

    “This isn’t nothing spectacular, 5l./100 km. is very normal for european cars. In fact, we have small engines (1.3 diesel) that have a mileage of 60 mpg.”

    Which one of those will pass U.S. safety and pollution requirements?

    It’s been suggesed elsewhere that the US adopt European safety standards since GM can design and execute a business plan that makes a profit there.  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    #68 schmeltz said:

    “Statik, The way I see it, we are trying to compare the fully loaded to the nines, Prius at 30K…with the base standard, rock bottom price of the Volt.”

    A more suitable comparison is the next iteration of the Prius that Lyle mentions at the end of the article–a Plug-in Prius for “under $42,000″. This upcoming version of the Prius is the one that will fight the Volt face to face–not the current generation without the plug. In that comparison, your more than likely getting a Prius that will use more gas than a Volt, and cost the same money. We shouldn’t continue to compare a current hybrid (without a plug) to the Volt, as the plug-in car will (for the next few years anyway) cost more.

    Like I said in post #25, it’s looking like any car that will get plugged in in the next few years will be in the $40,000 range. Ford has all but confirmed this as well, (see recent article on this site referring to future plug-in Escape and all-electric Focus). Technology costs money–unfortunately.
    ===============
    Sure, this makes sense, base plug-in Prius vs base plug-in Volt. I have no problem at all with that.

    Unfortunately, that $42K figure, is total BS. Lyle pulled that from the autocar article, which says it will be under £30k, implying it in that range, but much like the claim of 20 miles AER, it is totally unsubstantiated.

    Early estimates from Toyota were in the 7K premium range…below the Hymotion conversion price. Logically, you are looking at a MSRP number around 30-32K, then the rebate off the top, around $3,000 (pack is estimated at 5kW, give or take 1kWh).

    Like everything, we have no numbers to work with, so my guess could be off by a couple thousand, but that same could be said for any guess on the Volt…so what can you do? Just wait impatiently I suppose.

    (Side note: I thought the autocar estimate was in Euros…so the 42K is a good conversion number…apologies to Lyle).  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Actual Volt News!
    —————–
    GM close to picking Volt battery pack assembly location

    DETROIT, March 3 (Reuters) – General Motors Corp(GM.N) is close to a decision on the location of its first lithium-ion battery pack assembly facility, a top GM battery executive said on Tuesday.

    The battery packs would go into GM’s new Chevrolet Volt electric car to be launched in late 2010 and designed to run 40 miles on a single battery charge.

    “We are finalizing with some local governments on a couple of sites and I would think that very shortly we would be able to announce that location,” Bob Kruse, GM’s executive director of global vehicle engineering for hybrids, electric vehicles and batteries said.

    GM, which expects to manufacture 10,000 Volt cars in the first 12 months of production with the number increasing to 60,000 a year, has said it will locate the battery pack assembly facility in Michigan but has yet to reveal the exact locations under consideration.

    Under the contract with GM, LG Chem will manufacture the battery cells at its plant in Ochang, south of Seoul, Korea. The cells will then be shipped directly to a GM battery assembly facility to be built in Michigan

    http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0347820620090303?rpc=44  
    
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    Jim in PA Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Good for Toyota. The more the merrier (even though I will buy American if given a choice, thank you very much). Remember the common enemies here folks; oil, OPEC, and associated global instability.  
    
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    Jim in PA Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    I am eagerly awaiting the Carnegie Mellon study (and related Bloomberg news story) discussing how a Toyota Prius is an unjustifiable waste of money compared to buying a Honda Insight.

    Waiting…. waiting…. tapping foot…. checking watch….  
    
    (Quote)

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    Timaaayyy! Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    GM sales drop 52.9% in 2/09.  
    
    (Quote)

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    Unni Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    Simple comparison to volt : 150 hp electric motor to 80 hp electric motor. I don’t know how much this translates in money. Last day a blog said in current price of lithium ion battery which can give 40 mile is $10,000 ( was reading some other blog which talks on a modified prius to get 40 mile plug in range ).

    This looked interesting :
    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/geneva-2009-clever-edag-light-car-open-source-is-like-safety/

    Specially the rear display, Its better to show proper signs for communication than just designing lights because already there is microprocessor to control the car. This may be the place PS3 processor is going to be a doing good – using cell processor – with a very good degree of parallelism. GM can license (O)LED technology and others used in this car and make a Gen 2 volt . off course stying tips also can be taken ( I too much liked the flextreeme and its still my desktop wallpaper )

    Was reading some comments above on gas guzzlers : The problem is some class of people needs trucks/SUVs , its not for rest. When rest people use them instead of prius , yes they are gas guzzlers but sorry we cant use prius for the purpose of those trucks/SUVs.  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    All the detail on GM’s -52.9%

    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=52742

    …that was including this statement from GM — “GMAC retail penetration increased dramatically to more than 30 percent of sales in February”

    1,087 hybrids sold

    GM inventory level looks to be at around 165-170 days (the ‘target’ rate is 60)

    Of interest is they reaffirmed Q1 production, but also put out a Q2 estimate:

    Q1 2009: 380,000
    Q2 2009: 555,000  
    
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    Jim in PA Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    #67 John1707a

    I’ll define “fun driving”. My old 1980 Malibu with an interior coolant leak under the dash that lead to green fog on the inside of the windshield when the weather was just right. Woohoo!  
    
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    Jim in PA Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    #76 Unni – I don’t think your comparison is valid. The Volt is a serial hybrid, so the 150 HP electric motor provides all the available power. The Prius, on the other hand, is a parallel hybrid, so the 80 HP electric motor should combine with the output from the gas engine to provide the available power. Apples and oranges.  
    
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    Joe Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    I’ll take the Volt or the Cruze over the Prius any day. First because it’s American and next because the Cruze is suppose to get in the 40’s and is not a hybrid. With the Volt price being not much different than the Prius, one would have to be crazy to buy the Prius.  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    Other random tidbits from GM’s report:
    —————————-

    Cars off 50%, trucks off 55%.

    HUMMER continues to be the worst brand -68.7%
    Pontiac was ‘the best’ at -40.7%

    Vehicles of interest that sucked:
    Lucerne -73.4%
    STS -75.1%
    Impala -69%
    Solstice -65.4%/Sky -62.7%
    Aura -68.8%
    Trailblazer -89.8%
    Uplander -96.9%
    Envoy -82.4%
    H2 -80.9%
    H3 -74.3%

    Vehicle of interest that sucked less:

    Astra +30.3 (new model/limited 08 release)
    Vibe -4.8% (second month in a row of really strong numbers)
    Malibu -7.6%
    Enclave -12.8%
    Acadia -19.8%
    CTS -36.3%  
    
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    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    I haven’t seen Chrysler yet, but looks like Honda is February’s winner (of the ‘larger’ auto makers), only losing 35.4%

    http://www.hondanews.com/categories/804/releases/4957

    (Nissan finishes 2nd at -37.1%…Toyota in 3rd at -37.3%)

    ================
    Subaru continues to kick the crap out of all comers on a percentage basis. February they were up…again, 5.6% (after pulling a 8 in January, and being up for 2008)  
    
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    Mitch Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    #61 Jake M

    “Consumer report is ridiculous because they don’t agree with you? Actually they are the best source we have for non industry sponsored”

    Yeah..this publication that gives a recommend to a car it never tested because of past models..(BTW it was a Toyota, not that I have a problem with the T co. but Consumer reports DEFINITELY has pet faves and MAJOR biases

    totally unbiased…  
    
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    Timaaayyy! Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    A bright spot: “HUMMER Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles sold 203 vehicles, up 31 percent.” lol

    http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/sales_prod/index.jsp  
    
    (Quote)

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    RB Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    #81 statik on GM’s sales numbers
    ——————————————————————-

    Thank you for these items. “Dismal” is too positive a word to be used to describe them. It is hard for me to see how GM is going to be able to continue to function, unless there is a much larger inflow of government funds, ch11, or some other dramatic turn of events.

    I realize that GM is forecasting a marked increase in sales in Q2, based on just what I am not sure. Hope springs eternal, also GM PR. At least it will be Spring.  
    
    (Quote)

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    Mike D Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:32 pm

    As far as debate with the Insight… the question is how well will the 2010 Prius’s fuel economy be driving in “eco” mode. The Inisight was in the upper 50’s all of a sudden…better than the Prius. So the better buy won’t be determined until we know what the Prius gets city / highway in eco mode. IMO it better be in the mid 60’s or higher to be a decisively better buy than the Inisight….  
    
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    Eloh Gnub Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    Timaaayyy!. Thank you for your sense of humor. A little levity really helps in these dark times. Hope GM can survive enough to make the Volt.  
    
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    BillR Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Well, GM released a video of the intro for the Ampera. Here is a link if you are interested.

    http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f63/geneva-2009-motor-show-opel-ampera-videos-76227/

    At last year’s Geneva Auto show, they displayed the Saab 9-X, and it emitted 117 grams CO2 per km at 48 mpg. Therefore, the Prissy will emit about the same.

    However, in this linked video, it is announced that the Ampera emits less than 40 grams of CO2 per km. This equates to greater than 140 mpg!

    So for those of us interested in reducing CO2 emissions and global warming, the anwser is clear.  
    
    (Quote)

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    Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    As far as fun-to-drive, neither the Prius nor the Insight but this:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/geneva-2009-frazer-nash-namir-by-giugiaro/

    Those still pining for the Volt Concept may find a new love.  
    
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    RB Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    #81 statik
    From GM website:
    Chevrolet retail cars continue to gain share, led by Malibu’s 33 percent retail sales gain compared with last year
    ————————————————————————

    How do they (gm.media.com) get 33 percent retail sales gain for Malibu?  
    
    (Quote)

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    RB Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:49 pm

    #89 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy –> It is beautiful. Thanks for link.  
    
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    CaptJackSparrow Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm

    Blah Blah Blah….
    Yak Yak Yak…

    Just build my Volt Dangit!!!
    It’s going to suck As$ when anyone buys a new car in the future for folks here in California. The VLF (Vehicle License Fees) are trippled so folks will be less inclined to buy a new car. Sure the fake $7500 may trick people into thinking they’re getting a good deal but they’re not. I don’t want a”Hybrid”, I want a Volt! I want EREV Tecnlogly, I want full BEV at more than 20 miles! I want I want…

    No Power Windows
    No Power Adjust Seats
    No Power Side view mirrors
    No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
    No Power Door Locks
    No Power Trunk lock
    No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
    No Heated Seats
    No OnStar!!!

    Back to Basics Boys!

    I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…  
    
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93. 
    
    

    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    #83 Mitch

    I have been a long time subscriber of CR and I have always thought they were biased. I have owned some of the good cars and bad cars as they have called them and I did not agree with their analysis then and I still don’t. Even back in the 80s when GM was poor, poor in quality and reliability I owned GM vehicles that did have pretty good quality for the money paid and they were always reliable for me. Some of the information CR uses is subscriber feedback on surveys and I feel fairly certain the “average” CR subscriber is biased for Japanese vehicles and against American vehicles. If a survey were to be taken of the types of vehicles subscribers own, I suspect the percentage of Japanese vehicles would be about 60% or maybe more. Now, I own three Japanese vehicles at present. They make fine vehicles. I own them partly because I thought at the time they were better vehicles, but primarily because I got a little better deal and got a little more “options” for the money paid. I did not think they were much better, if any in quality, and certainly not better in reliability than GM or Ford vehicles.  
    
    (Quote)

94. 
    
    

    Joe Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    JP says@59

    “Given time, and the correct moves, GM will probably rule the world again. The Japanese know this and are (I trust) starting to sweat bullets.”

    ***********************************************************************************

    I agree with you 100%. Being a retired engineer from GM I know GM was not at their best for the last 25 years. Today, GM is wide awake and if they can endure this recession, in time they will win respect and get on top again. Watch and see!
    For those who don’t really know GM, you may find this as a joke but we will see who gets the last laugh.  
    
    (Quote)

95. 
    
    

    N Riley Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    One thing that you have to keep in mind with Japanese vehicles versus American vehicles is that the auto maker and dealerships really push schedule maintenance hard. They do that for two reasons. One, it increases dealership income. Two, it increases vehicle life and dependability. That last reason pushes the brand on resale and everywhere else towards the top of the list. The consumer pays the cost of increasing reliability with each scheduled maintenance and the auto maker benefits. It is good, sound policy. In the long run both the auto maker and the buyer gains.  
    
    (Quote)

96. 
    
    

    statik Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    #90 RB said:

    “statik, From GM website:Chevrolet retail cars continue to gain share, led by Malibu’s 33 percent retail sales gain compared with last year”

    How do they (gm.media.com) get 33 percent retail sales gain for Malibu?
    =====================
    Fancy stepping is it not? What they are doing is estimating the year over year gain at the showroom level, once they strip out fleet/rental sales.

    /eloquent way to reverse spin I suppose  
    
    (Quote)

97. 
    
    

    Timaaayyy!!! Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    For those who want to be an active part of the solution:

    http://www.gm.com/corporate/careers/  
    
    (Quote)

98. 
    
    

    Murry G Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    #97 Timaaayyy

    LOL, nice find. In addition to GM, I also hear AIG and Citigroup are hiring. Long term opportunites available, like 2 weeks maybe!  
    
    (Quote)

99. 
    
    

    Steveland Says:
    March 3rd, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    Anyone notice the Mercedes-Benz E-Class coupe has a Cd of 0.25 like the new Prius, but it looks way better!  
    
    (Quote)

100. 
     
     

     Mitty Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm

     RE: CONSUMER REPORTS

     Good thing “Consumer” Reports isn’t read in China, because apparently those fools over there have been suckered into buying Buicks by the boatload. It’s the top selling brand in China and has been for years. What do they know that we don’t? They are a nation that has a totally fresh perspective on automobiles, and aren’t stuck in the past. They’ve clearly voted with their wallets and Buick comes out on top.

     Consumer Reports IS biased when it comes to cars. I’ve seen it too many times. They are simply stuck in their own hogwash.  
     
     (Quote)

101. 
     
     

     BobS Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:37 pm

     #23 Bruce: “You want to spend $38k on a Volt that doesn’t use fuel when you can get a average $15k economy car. It would probably take 30 years if ever to recoup the fuel cost in the difference between a $15K gas car and a $38k Volt, even if gas is expensive. Get a spreadsheet and calculate it. If you want a Volt fine, but recognize it wouldn’t save money in your scenario you laid out.”

     Take it a step further: It would probably take 30 years if ever to recoup the fuel cost in the difference between a $1K bicycle and a $15K economy car. Or how about: It would probably take 30 years if ever to recoup the fuel cost in the difference between a $60 pair of shoes and a $1K bicycle. Buying cars isn’t just about economics.  
     
     (Quote)

102. 
     
     

     David K (CT) Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm

     Has anyone read this scathing report?

     http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/03/autos/gm_volt.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009030313

     I know we had recent discussions about the Carnegie Mellon study and how they seemed to make (wrong) assumptions.

     I just want my Blue Volt!  
     
     (Quote)

103. 
     
     

     RichardG Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 pm

     CNBC reports that Toyota has asked the Japanese Government for financial aid.  
     
     (Quote)

104. 
     
     

     Timaaayyy!!! Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm

     #98 MG

     Actually, on that post I was being serious for a change. Win-win. Help GM help yourself.

     The Li-ion openings could be a rare chance for the posters here, Volt/Voltec/battery enthusiasts by definition, to help the cause from the inside. Would there be risks? Of course, but enthusiasts don’t shy from those by their vary nature–40,000 or whatever are willing to pay a year or two or more of disposable income on a concept car. Now that’s risk. Besides, what are they giving up? The large number of posts during the day tells me that a lot of the posters are either w/o jobs or are unhappily employed. Certainly they know someone who is–probably a handful of them. And some seem to be engineers in this life or a past one.  
     
     (Quote)

105. 
     
     

     RichardG Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:51 pm

     The April 2009 issue of Motor Trend magazine has an article about the Cadillac Converj and another more lengthy article about the Chevy Volt with lots of history about the development and decisions made along the way.  
     
     (Quote)

106. 
     
     

     Bob G Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:53 pm

     #97 Timaaayyy!!! “For those who want to be an active part of the solution: http://www.gm.com/corporate/careers/”

     There are only 11 available engineering jobs, but 3 of them are to help develop our beloved Volt. For me, this demonstrates GM’s commitment to the program.

     - Lithium-Ion Battery Module Process Manufacturing Engineer
     - Lithium Ion Cell Process Manufacturing Engineer
     - PDO Hybrid HVAC Software Development Engineer  
     
     (Quote)

107. 
     
     

     fredevad Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm

     #23 Bruce: “You want to spend $38k on a Volt that doesn’t use fuel when you can get a average $15k economy car. It would probably take 30 years if ever to recoup the fuel cost in the difference between a $15K gas car and a $38k Volt, even if gas is expensive. Get a spreadsheet and calculate it.”
     ———————

     Actually, I already have a spreadsheet to calculate the fuel savings for my driving profile (I was board one day). Assuming $38K for the Volt and accounting for a $7,500 tax credit, and based on my current $17K PT Cruiser:
     - 8.5 years to recoup fuel at an average of $2 a gallon.
     - 5.8 years to recoup fuel at an average of $3 a gallon.
     - 4.3 years to recoup fuel at an average of $4 a gallon.

     Without the tax credit, it would be 11 years, 7.6 years, and 5.5 years respectively.

     But in reality, I really want a Volt to transition off of gas and reduce CO2 emissions. Oh, and to drive silently!  
     
     (Quote)

108. 
     
     

     Mitch Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm

     #15 PaulR

     Also..

     Any word on how this is the UAW’s fault yet??lol  
     
     (Quote)

109. 
     
     

     RB Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 4:10 pm

     #96 statik on GM’s reported Malibu sales “gain”
     ——————————————

     Thank you for the explanation. That’s really fancy footwork

     Reminds me of the game booths at the NC State Fair   
     
     (Quote)

110. 
     
     

     Jurgen Schmidt Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 4:32 pm

     The PRIUS rules today and probably tomorrow too.
     50 MPG is great, surely the best mileage offered in America.
     When the Volt finally (if ever) comes out I am sure the 4th generation Prius will be even better.

     And don’t forget the following very important formula :

     Toyota Quality > GM Quality

     Don’t wait any longer, get your car this spring and enjoy your 50 MPG PRIUS !!!

     Did I mention 50 MPG, yes it’s finally here.  
     
     (Quote)

111. 
     
     

     Slim Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm

     RE: #103 ABOVE – “CNBC reports that Toyota has asked the Japanese Government for financial aid.”

     Well, surprise, surprise! They are acknowledging something which the Japanese government had been doing for decades – subsidizing their auto makers. This is the dirty little secret of the Japanese so called superiority over our our domestic brands.

     Our companies have had their hands tied behind their backs with Union problems and such, and we Americans lose out time and again because we want to actually compete, while the Japanese want to conquer. It’s an unspoken national policy of Japan Inc.

     We have opened our borders to their “competition”, so why do they keep us out of their market?  
     
     (Quote)

112. 
     
     

     Jason M. Hendler Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:02 pm

     If you want to save the most money on gasoline consumption, the Prius is a slightly better value. If you want to drive using absolutely NO gasoline for the first 40 miles, then the Volt is your only choice.  
     
     (Quote)

113. 
     
     

     statik Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:07 pm

     Here is the overall industry numbers for February, and the breakdown by every auto maker:

     685,397 vs. 1,338,447 or -39.0

     GM-Group -51.1
     Saab -57.2
     Ford-Group -46.3
     Volvo -53.4
     Chrysler LLC -41.7
     ————-
     VW-Group -16.0
     Audi -21.2
     Hyundai 2.6
     Kia 4.6
     Mercedes -20.3
     Toyota -37.3
     Honda -35.4
     Nissan -34.5
     Mitsubishi -48.7
     Mazda -27.4
     BMW -31.9
     Subaru 5.6
     Suzuki -58.6
     Porsche -7.8

     Market Share Changes for the ‘Big 2.45′ (year over year):

     GM 18.5%, down from 19.1%
     Ford 14.5% vs 14.4%
     Chrysler 12.3% vs 10.9%  
     
     (Quote)

114. 
     
     

     Koz Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:14 pm

     Jim in Pa #74

     Actually, the Carnegie Mellon study was based on PHEV’s based on vehicles like the Prius not EREV’s like the Volt. Subsequently, the Bloomberg article was flawed from the start and strayed downhill from there.  
     
     (Quote)

115. 
     
     

     Dan Petit Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:17 pm

     Again, I like what CaptnJack says about no options.
     Looking at one of the posts above where it lists (among other things),
     Lane Keep Assist and
     Automatic Parking,
     it sounds like these unnecessary options are for people who either are too sleepy to drive or too drunk to drive.
     Although that item called High Solar Energy [blocking] Glass has my attention (with the requisite cold A/C). With the nasty UV light hitting us harder each Winter, special glass ought to be given highest considerations as to options. Otherwise just charge me for whatever it takes for the most basic Volt and leave the rest off of it. It’s not a terrible thing to offer the most basic model you can for just slightly less. That way, you can really more likely count on whatever you spend to hold its value far better.
     By the way, one of my customers who has a Lexus says the Automatic Parking did not work for her and she had a really hefty set of resulting damages that she had to pay for herself in order to not have a claim. (She’s that proverbial really-nice-grandmother-who-lives-next-door retiree).
     There ought to be a survey conducted about what options folks would and would not want and for what optional costs (with realistic “range-windows” of multiple choice questions). That way, no-one would be surprised at the production cost differences between the basic models and the upscale ones.
     Dan Petit Austin TX.  
     
     (Quote)

116. 
     
     

     The efficiency end game. Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:21 pm

     The efficiency end game at the vehicle level is 100% electric drive, range extended (using any fuel source) or not (using any energy carrier).

     If your torque curve doesn’t look like this:
     ___

     http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php
     http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/171577-2/Zero_X_dyno_chart.jpg

     Then you don’t have squat.

     Regardless of the short or medium term, products like the Volt win in the long term. Keep your eyes on the prize, GM!  
     
     (Quote)

117. 
     
     

     Mark Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:23 pm

     “have an electric range less than 20 miles”

     Well, an electric car with a range of less than 20 miles is utterly useless for most people. Looks like they’re not exactly serious about it.  
     
     (Quote)

118. 
     
     

     noel park Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:26 pm

     The article on the Yahoo page said that the Honda Fit was down something like 2%, while the Accord was down over 40%.

     I heard the other day that the Mini Cooper had the largest sales growth of any car in the US last year. And they sell for what, $25K+?

     I think that this tells us something about the performance of quality small cars in this market, and probably future markets. I think that the Mini, especially, tells us something about the possibility of making money on quality small cars.  
     
     (Quote)

119. 
     
     

     GM Volt Fan Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:27 pm

     Check this out: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/020909dnprotexascleancars.4108ab6.html

     “Chevrolet aims to release the Volt in late 2010 with a sticker price somewhere under $40,000, Eppling said. A federal tax credit of up to $7,500 and a possible Texas rebate of $5,000 could effectively reduce the price to $27,500″

     The state that people usually associate with “Big Oil” just might become a big state for Volt owners and other plug-in hybrids. Who woulda thunk that Texas politicians were big electric car fans like us? They say everything is big in Texas, so I guess it shouldn’t be too surprising for Texas politicians to offer some big incentives to buy a Volt.

     I hope ALL the states in America have incentives to buy the Volt in the next few years like they will in Texas. A $27,500 Volt is do-able for a lot more people that’s for sure.  
     
     (Quote)

120. 
     
     

     noel park Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:30 pm

     I just want to add this:

     As negative and frustrated as I may sound sometimes, God send that GM shall survive to produce the Volt and to prosper. I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart.  
     
     (Quote)

121. 
     
     

     HyperMiler Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:32 pm

     #100 Mitty says

     > They are a nation that has a totally fresh perspective on automobiles, and aren’t stuck in the past. They’ve clearly voted with their wallets and Buick comes out on top.

     The reason Chinese are buying Buick is exactly the past pre-communist-era glamor associated with Buick! Yes, GM was selling tons of Buicks in China before Mao took over, and Chinese remembered that for 60 years until the return of Buick!!!  
     
     (Quote)

122. 
     
     

     Abe Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:37 pm

     RE: statik

     Hard to believe Subaru is still able to be positive in these times. They do make some really nice vehicles though, so I guess I’m not too suprised. Just shows that if you make a good product that people want, you will be profitable.  
     
     (Quote)

123. 
     
     

     stas peterson Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:37 pm

     Any efficiency improvements are to be commended and Toyota’s new Prius advances it’s HSD drive system. Good for them and for us. But not as much improvements as Ford’s Fusion design does, in a larger vehicle.

     Mighty Toyota is now pleading for $2 billion USD from the Japanese government. Mr. Statik is well aware of western and US accounting measures. I wonder if he is acquainted with Japanese accounting. Due to the constant growth and interlocking companies, (read Monopolies) that Japan allows, Japanese accounting allows debt/equity ratio leverage multiples of not two or three times; but 20 or 30 or 50 times over. IOW, financially enemic Chrysler, if its accounts were measured the Japanese way, would be one of the most massively stable, gilt-edged, Triple AAA rated, and rock solid of most any firm on the Japanese Stock Exchange, and yet it is basket case here. Never mind how gilt-edged and solid GM would then be viewed.

     With those enormous leverage ratios, it doesn’t take but a single loss or two, to have it all unravel, very quickly. That is why the intrinsic shrinkage of the Japanese auto market due to the Age issue, is so devastating to them. They have carefully manipulated their market to reserve it for themselves, which also means they will take all the shrinkage from that long term problem. Bad times such as we are seeing in the US, Japan, EU and worldwide, will come and go in a few years, but there are twenty years or more of Japanese car market shrinkage coming, before Japan’s car driving population could even begin to grow again. Many east Asian markets are closing to them, as Korean, Thai, Indian and Chinese markets support their own industries, with the same market-exclusion models the Japanese have practiced. It is also why all the Japanese automakers including Toyota are on the edge of the Abyss.

     I could easily see Mitsubishi, Subaru and Nissan teeter on the edge of bankruptcy. If Ford won’t support Mazda, the same would apply there as well. Now that mighty Toyota has cried for help, all the Japanese firms will queue for their bailouts too.

     Statik, please comment on Japanese accounting and leverage rules, S’il vous plait.

     Meanwhile there is a vast difference between 50 mpg of full petroleum fossil usage of the new Prius, versus 320 mpge with some significant substitution of petroleum in an EREV Volt design.

     Petroleum substitution is a necessary technological advance, regardless of the stupid concerns for the inconsequential results of adding a benign and temporary plant fertilizer to our croplands via tiny CO2 additions. If indeed the miniscule rises, are anthropological in origin, and not simply Ocean out gassing. Or the pre-industrial origin levels are the levels measured in hydrate-uncorrected ice core proxies, as objected to by the World’s and the IPCC’s foremost ice core authority, Dr, Zbignieu Zaworowski. And not the much higher and near contemporary levels of the some 90,000 time-series laboratory measurements of many 18th and 19th century Scientists, including at least four Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry. Their records were recently rediscovered and re-published by Professor Georg Beck show that they recorded CO2 levels as high as 440 ppm, and averaged around 340 ppm not 280 ppm, as hydrate-uncorrected ice cores proxies would infer.  
     
     (Quote)

124. 
     
     

     carcus1 Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:42 pm

     Assuming gas price trend up and battery prices trend down over time, then:

     ORDER OF CHRONOLOGICAL VIABILITY

     1. Efficient ICE (i.e. Honda Fit, 2010 Fusion 4 cyl)
     2. Parallel Hybrid (i.e. Honda Insight II)
     3. Parallel/Series Hybrid (i.e. Prius, Fusion Hybrid, Vue Hybrid)
     4. Parallel/Series Hybrid plugin (i.e. Prius, Fusion, Escape, Vue PIH)
     5. BEV (i.e. imiev, focus electric)
     .
     .
     .
     6. Series Hybrid (volt)

     - There may be some mixing of the order at #4 and #5, depending on rapidly changing technological developments (i.e. quick charge on the BEV, controlling software on the PSHEV).
     - I expect there to be quite a time gap before we get to #6.
     - By viability, I mean this is how I think volume sales will go. Viability = volume sales.
     - #4 advancements may preclude any volume productions of #6.  
     
     (Quote)

125. 
     
     

     Guy Incognito Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:46 pm

     “2010 Prius Gets 50 MPG, … , Will Have Plug-in Version in 2010 … ”
     =D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     Moving right along.
     Ah yes, the inexorable forward march of technology…  
     
     (Quote)

126. 
     
     

     carcus1 Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 5:57 pm

     #124 add,

     In addition to battery price, one huge wildcard is going to be large format lithium battery durability. We don’t know if a lithium pack is going to last 5 years, much less 7 or 10.  
     
     (Quote)

127. 
     
     

     DonC Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:02 pm

     #118 noel park says “I think that the Mini, especially, tells us something about the possibility of making money on quality small cars.”

     Really good point Noel. If you go to the web site you can price one of these babies out. You go over $30K in a hurry. Yet they sell very well. Ditto for the Smart (which I think is nasty).

     Basically people want what they think are cool cars. Get the car right and you’ll have lots of customers. A Volt is a cool car because of the tech. The Prius had very cool tech seven or eight years ago but today it’s not very exciting.

     All those suggesting that you could save money with something else just don’t understand why people buy cars.  
     
     (Quote)

128. 
     
     

     stas peterson Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:22 pm

     carcusu1,

     I like your chronological chart. Except that you have a few things reversed.

     Item 4 becomes item 7; except for NEVS. Even micro-compact BEVs need a special condition such as very limited driving environment, such as in Israel, combined with a Project Better Place success, to allow low mileage BEVs. Realistically, a BEV must support a 120 mile range, and that costs 2.5 times the battery, as in an 40 mile EREV.

     The gap between 5 and 6 is not anywhere as large as you posit, but it does exist, at present battery prices.

     You seem to believe that prices wil not plunge for li-Ion traction batteries, Fronm engieneering experience, I differ. Long before the Volt v 2.0 comes out, batteries prices will halve and halve again. It doesn’t even have to do that, really.

     If the life expectancy merely increases from125,000 to meet 150,000 miles reliably, which is possible even before Volt v1.0 appears, then the 5-6 gap instantly disappears.

     Mr. Lutz has said that GM is forecasting having to replace some unknown but realtively high percentage of batteries between 125,000 and 150,000 miles. That has almost doubled their cost model for the Volt. Simply removing that uncertainty, chops the battery cost almost in half, with even today’s battery designs. Alternatively, the CARBite idiots might be induced to lower legally required emissions life expectations to 125,000 miles instead of 150,000 miles for EVs, until say 2015, to encourage initial EV acceptance.  
     
     (Quote)

129. 
     
     

     Kurt Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:24 pm

     Somebody tell me…because I’m not great with acronyms… what in the world does LJGTVWOTR NPNS mean? I see it on here all the time…  
     
     (Quote)

130. 
     
     

     Anto Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:24 pm

     General Motors has already produced 30 Chevrolet Volts for testing, executive says
     http://www.mlive.com/businessreview/annarbor/index.ssf/2009/03/general_motors_has_already_pro.html

     Can I get one to test drive ?  
     
     (Quote)

131. 
     
     

     DonC Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:30 pm

     #130 Anto says “General Motors has already produced 30 Chevrolet Volts for testing”

     Nice catch. I wonder if they’re out on the streets or still exclusively on the track?  
     
     (Quote)

132. 
     
     

     statik Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:39 pm

     #118 noel park said:

     The article on the Yahoo page said that the Honda Fit was down something like 2%, while the Accord was down over 40%.

     I heard the other day that the Mini Cooper had the largest sales growth of any car in the US last year. And they sell for what, $25K+?

     I think that this tells us something about the performance of quality small cars in this market, and probably future markets. I think that the Mini, especially, tells us something about the possibility of making money on quality small cars.
     ================================

     Mini had a good 2008, and is not doing too badly in ‘0. They were off a little over 17% this month…and off 16% last month. YTD is -16.5%. Their numbers are ‘jumpy’ because of limited volume (Feb sales -2,826)

     I understand exactly the point you are talking about though, the higer price can still be attained if you have the right product.

     I think the surprise beast overall is still Subaru. They are up for all of 2008, and for both January and February of this year (YTD sales of 25,283 units sold in 2009 versus 24,195)

     For Subaru, the real winner has been the Forestor, pulling all the rest of the brand up. It posted another huge month, up 101% (5,978 units). The others were:
     -13% Legacy
     -14%-Impreza
     -32%-Outback
     -56%-Tribeca (limited run 441 units)

     http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/subaru-of-america-inc-announces-increase-in-sales,736587.shtml  
     
     (Quote)

133. 
     
     

     statik Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 6:44 pm

     #130 Anto says “General Motors has already produced 30 Chevrolet Volts for testing”

     –I’m pretty sure that is just talk about the 33-odd mules they built before GM stopped building things last november.  
     
     (Quote)

134. 
     
     

     Unni Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 7:17 pm

     GMs Buick hope also starts melting, Still America supports free trade and American investors investing in chinese auto and public wanting more imports.

     From auto Blog :

     China is determined to raise its annual domestic car sales to 10 million units this year, and also wants sales to grow by another 10% every year for the next three years. It aims to achieve those numbers with a comprehensive investment in the company’s transportation sector, beginning with merging China’s 14 major automaking groups into ten. Doing so, they say, will help the development of new products and seriously slash costs in overlap.

     Chinese authorities will buy more Chinese cars, subsidize rural purchasers with 5 billion yuan ($732 million) in subsidies, offer rebates to those trading in used cars for new ones, eliminate road tolls and expand urban infrastructure.

     http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/chinese-govt-wants-to-consolidate-major-automakers-to-10/  
     
     (Quote)

135. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 7:38 pm

     #61 Jake M Says: Consumer report is ridiculous because they don’t agree with you? … German and Japanese quality is better, the data doesn’t lie.
     ————————————————————————————–
     Actually, the data from Consumer Reports says that German brands are no more reliable than GM. The driving test scores evaluate the driving experience in the car, which is subjective. So I wouldn’t say German quality is better.

     It’s more accurate to say that German cars have a look and feel that some people desire, and that German cars are not particularly reliable.

     Toyota and Honda repair data clearly shows they have the best reliability. I hope GM can catch up here. I never would have considered an American car if it weren’t for the Volt.  
     
     (Quote)

136. 
     
     

     RB Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 7:41 pm

     #129 Kurt asks “what in the world does LJGTVWOTR NPNS mean?”
     ===============

     NPNS = no plug no sale
     LJGTVWOTR = let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road

     The latter is an expression of enthusiasm meaning “let’s get on with building the car, now”  
     
     (Quote)

137. 
     
     

     john1701a Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 7:42 pm

     The Prius had very cool tech seven or eight years ago but today it’s not very exciting.
     _____________________________

     That’s a indicator of a technology being MATURE.

     High-Volume production is becoming quite realistic.

     Ubiquitous technology, like that in Camry & Corolla, hasn’t been exciting for ages. Yet, there are lots & lots of them still purchased. Well established is a very good thing.  
     
     (Quote)

138. 
     
     

     Dave K. =D~ Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 8:09 pm

     Not interested in the Toyota Prius at any price. Still accumulating stocks to fund the 2011 Volt purchase. But thanks for the update.

     =D~  
     
     (Quote)

139. 
     
     

     carcus1 Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 8:15 pm

     #128 stas peterson,

     ” Realistically, a BEV must support a 120 mile range, and that costs 2.5 times the battery, as in an 40 mile EREV.”
     ______________________________________________________

     aptera 2e: 1500#, 10-13kwh range 100-125mi
     http://www.gizmag.com/aptera-2e-specification-released/10903/

     BEV’s with low weight as a primary design objective can achieve 120 mile range on less battery than the volt.
     To me, this is one of the biggest areas where the volt kind of goes trundling off in the wrong direction. The aptera achieves a pretty roomy 21/2 seat interior with lots of cargo space in the process. I really like that they started with a blank sheet of paper and utilized the most advanced materials (which have been sitting around on the shelves for decades now).
     - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -
     “You seem to believe that prices wil not plunge for li-Ion traction batteries, Fronm engieneering experience, I differ. Long before the Volt v 2.0 comes out, batteries prices will halve and halve again.”

     No, I don’t think that batteries at 25% of current cost will happen any time soon. But I certainly hope you are right . IF reliable Lithium batteries were to be readily available at cheap prices– then of course— all types of electric cars will swamp the market.  
     
     (Quote)

140. 
     
     

     Schmeltz Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 8:27 pm

     #120 Noel Park said:

     “I just want to add this:
     As negative and frustrated as I may sound sometimes, God send that GM shall survive to produce the Volt and to prosper. I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart.”

     Agreed brother! My feelings as well.  
     
     (Quote)

141. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm

     #124 carcus1,

     Here is my order of viability. Assuming gas prices trend higher, five years from today (2014), I predict sales will be:
     1. Efficient ICE (i.e. Honda Fit, 2010 Fusion 4 cyl)
     2. HEV (i.e. Prius, Honda Insight II, Fusion Hybrid, etc.)
     3. EREV (Volt, Fisker, etc.)
     4. PHEV (Prius Plugin, Vue Plugin)
     .
     .
     .
     5. BEV (i.e. imiev, focus electric)

     Here is my rationale:
     • CPI says the Volt’s battery costs $8K today
     • There is a $7500 tax credit for the first 200,000
     • CPI says the Volt’s battery will cost $2000-$4000 in 5-10 years.
     • PHEVs with 8-10 miles of range don’t save that much gas
     • PHEVs with much more that 8-10 miles will have all the issues of the Volt.
     • BEV range anxiety will ALWAYS be an issue  
     
     (Quote)

142. 
     
     

     stealth in J'Rahm Age Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 8:59 pm

     “I wonder why the car makers didn’t implement this known technology (in the trains) earlier.”

     The above quote is from the last article, but it seems more at home here. The following analysis is based on the Electric Transmission only; ignore the battery for the moment.

     Electric transmissions suffer what I will call the “Triple the Max” penalty. Simply put if you want 100 hp at the wheel of the vehicle you need a 100 hp electric motor connected to the wheel. Plus you need a 100 hp generator to create electricity; plus you need a 100 hp engine to drive the generator. You are running 300 hp worth of motor/engine (all at their maximum) but only getting 1/3 of the work done.

     There is an expression: the exception proves the rule. But people misunderstand the meaning of “prove”. A modern translation is: the exception shows where you can’t apply the rule. The point is we are looking for a rule to tell us when we can use an electric transmission and when we can’t. Rather than calculating this let’s just look for the exceptions and describe what we see.

     Trains and Semi-Tractor-Trailers are similar in some ways. Both haul heavy loads at high speeds for long distances. Both have slow acceleration demands and both slow down going up a hill. Trains often have electric transmission. Trucks “never” do. Classically trucks have manual transmissions with ten low gears to do what we think of as “first” gear. In the city we sometimes find buses with electric transmissions. But not all buses. Or even most buses.

     The point is that on the highway the use of an electric transmission requires a vehicle larger than a fully loaded semi. In the city it requires a vehicle about the size of bus. The reason we have never put an electric transmission in a four door sedan is simply because it is too small to be a cost effective application.

     To understand why let’s look at a situation where the triple-the-max is a penalty is worth paying: construction equipment.

     In construction you are often using massive amounts of horse power at very low speeds. The RPM mismatch causes massive inefficiency in the transmission itself. When you push massive power through a massively inefficient device, it destroys itself; Burning out the clutch or the torque convertor; smoking the tires on drag racer. Some thing has to give. It is the high replacement cost on construction equipment that makes the “Triple the Max” worth paying. An electric transmission is a very efficient RPM matcher and therefore does not have the replacement costs that ordinary car tech would in a construction environment.

     The rule of thumb is: when you have ‘real work’ to do below 15 MPH you use an electric transmission. In a vehicle the size of the Volt the electric transmission is a liability not an asset. The Volt will succeed in spite of its series nature not because of it.

     To state the obvious the battery is everything. The Volt will only be commercially viable if the battery in the Volt is commercially viable. The problem with the Volt design is that the 40 miles range was chosen through marketing and usage studies. The size of the battery isn’t based on engineering or economics. This means at the moment the Volt was designed the battery wasn’t commercially viable. At the precise moment you’re reading this the battery isn’t commercially viable. At any randomly chosen moment in the future, the battery will most likely not be viable.

     However, let’s start over and do a completely different analysis. Let’s assume at some point in the future Li-based batteries becomes so good that full fledged BEV become commercially viable. Let’s also assume that at this moment battery in Volt is too large to be commercial viable. That means at some point in future the Volt will be the optimum design in commercial viability. It is statistically guaranteed. It is a mathematical requirement that the two lines cross at some point in time.

     It is better to be lucky than to be good; GM needs to be both. If the golden moment when the Volt is the best all possible designs is too long a time away then GM will squander resources waiting for it to come. If it happens too soon then GM won’t be ready and any other car company might swoop-in and steal the market.

     But if the moment comes at just the right time; if the world’s economy is coming back and lots of people who put off buying a new car for years are suddenly ready for something new; if the credit crunch is over and there are lots of investors looking to get in on the ground floor. GM needs to be both lucky and good. They need to survive until the moment arrives and they need to have all their ducks in a row so they can “go” at moment’s notice.

     If the golden moment comes before 2015 and GM is ready for it then it could mean everything to the future of GM and future of cars everywhere!

     If not; who cares. The some battery tech is commercial viable in cars and someone will build and sell them. Some battery tech is not commercial viable and they won’t because they can’t. I am eternally grateful to Toyota for building the 2004 Prius. The 2003 Prius proved nothing; it was an incomplete experiment. The 2004 Prius proved a company could manufacture that tech, at that size, make profit and still have product people would want to buy.

     Even if the Volt proves a failure I just hope it reaches a point where it is manufactured, sold and driven in a mainstream way. At least then it will be a complete experiment and we can learn something from the failure. I will be eternally grateful to GM for trying.  
     
     (Quote)

143. 
     
     

     JEC Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 9:16 pm

     Hot off the presses!

     http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/03/autos/gm_volt.fortune/index.htm

     Read it and weep ;(

     I do take exception to this statement:
     “And it said that large capacity hybrids like the Volt that go 40 miles or further on a charge are never cost-effective, because the batteries cost and weigh too much.”

     Never is a strong word. What if the battery cost comes down and/or the weight is reduced? Someone went a little to far, in my opinion, making such a sweeping statement/  
     
     (Quote)

144. 
     
     

     JEC Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 pm

     “Electric transmissions suffer what I will call the “Triple the Max” penalty. Simply put if you want 100 hp at the wheel of the vehicle you need a 100 hp electric motor connected to the wheel. Plus you need a 100 hp generator to create electricity; plus you need a 100 hp engine to drive the generator. You are running 300 hp worth of motor/engine (all at their maximum) but only getting 1/3 of the work done.”
     =====================================================
     This is really not what the Volt is all about. The key is that you are NOT using an engine or generator, at all. They only run when you run out of battery. Also, the serial math you made up, is bogus. You cannot add these 3 components together like that. Each one will add some level of inefficiency, but your math is false.

     Maybe a little “Triple-paste” is in order?  
     
     (Quote)

145. 
     
     

     carcus1 Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 9:26 pm

     #141 Dave G.

     My response (after reading Stealth at #142): What he said! (I think)
     That 300 hp part was a bit of an over reach, unless he meant you’re “packing” 300 hp around to do 100 hp worth of work.

     My argument against the volt’s viability at this stage of battery development has mainly to do with weight and efficiency, specifically generator efficiency losses and the penalty of carrying around a heavy ICE, generator, and a minimum amount of battery for the 40 mi aer range.

     I feel like the professor just stepped into the room. I’m still chewing on some of it.  
     
     (Quote)

146. 
     
     

     Dave K. =D~ Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 10:13 pm

     hi JEC #143,

     “…auto panel will have lots to consider as it evaluates GM’s plan to get back to profitability.”

     _______________________________

     I think it goes without saying that this eight legged bail out octopus is not a good deal for anyone except the weak, the misleading, and the greedy. But the hard truth is that we are now in the bail out environment and need to adapt to it. The article posted in #143 slams the Volt for it’s HIGH battery range (40 miles), and future LOW sales numbers. To this I respond, “Huh?”.

     GM has a good thing going with the Volt. Japan is becoming more aware of this by the month be it spoken out loud or in the Country Club locker room.

     I don’t agree with the #143 article. Written by another foolish wannabe with nothing better to do than to look at the dark side of the world. I hope he enjoys his efficient Yaris and finds a lady friend to help him cheer up.

     =D~  
     
     (Quote)

147. 
     
     

     George K Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 10:21 pm

     #62 hypermiler
     “A $10,000~15,000 premium for 3 kwh battery is kinda excessive.”

     “the new Prius will be switching from nickel metal hydride batteries to lithium ion batteries that have greater capacity in an even smaller size.
     Toyota engineers are targeting a mileage rating of 113 mpg, with improved 0-60 mph acceleration of less than 10 seconds. The internal combustion part of the drive train is reported to be a new turbocharged 1.8L lean burn four cylinder. The car may even get factory plug-in capability when it goes on sale in 2009 and now that GM has announced their intention to offer a plug-in hybrid Saturn Vue, this one may be a certainty.”
     - – - – - -

     Thought you would enjoy this piece from Autobloggreen 12-11-06.

     I remember reading this article at the time and was really excited about the the next gen. Now it comes out 2 1/2 years later with NiMH bats, and 50 mpg.

     Reality sometimes sucks!

     =D~~~~  
     
     (Quote)

148. 
     
     

     Jake Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 10:36 pm

     On March 26, Tesla’s four-door sedan, the Model S, will be unveiled. It’s expected to sell at a base price of $57,400 (U.S.) and will be available for sale in the second half of 2011.

     http://www.thestar.com/Wheels/article/596039

     say it with me now “100% Electric” yeah it’s about twice what a Prius currently goes for, but if Tesla can do it, then why is it taking so long for GM to build a damn hybrid  
     
     (Quote)

149. 
     
     

     koz Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 pm

     The FORTUNE article linked by #143 is a poster child for what is wrong with journalism today. The MotorWorld writer is retreading a misleading article written from Bloomberg from a couple of days ago.

     Here, http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/study-conclud-2.html, is a “real” article that actually quotes from the study and gives direct examples and not somebody’s secondhand jaded opinion substantiation. From this article:

     “The researchers used the split drivetrain configuration of a 2004 Prius as the baseline HEV, and examined PHEV versions of it sized for 7, 20, 40, and 60 miles (11, 32, 64 and 96 km) of all-electric range (AER) with comparable performance characteristics.”

     The study was on PHEV’s, specifically the Prius, NOT THE VOLT NOR EREV’s. It does not speak directly to the viability of the Volt. Although this article has a lot more substance to it, there still is not enough information about the study to draw many conclusions about the PHEV Prius either.

     By the way, this shot of the next gen Prius while still not attractive IMO is a bit more appealing than the current model (or should I say less unattractive?).

     LJGTVWOTR! NPNS!  
     
     (Quote)

150. 
     
     

     GM ToFail Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 10:55 pm

     I think the USSA is heading toward kaput under communist leader Barack Obama. . Too bad, putting too much money into black holes such as AIG/GM, etc will sink the country to third world status in 2 years. )  
     
     (Quote)

151. 
     
     

     Van Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 11:00 pm

     Three things we do not know about the Plug-in Prius:

     The price

     The size of the battery

     The AER.

     Folks have speculated that the base price will be 24,500 for the non-plug in next generation Prius due in showrooms in May.

     Folks have speculated the Lithium battery will be the same size as the test vehicles which had a 2.6 KWh battery and an AER of 7 to 8 miles. Others have speculated the Lithium battery will be larger but the AER will be less than 20 miles. My guess is 4 to 6 KWh but that is a pure guess.

     Folks have speculated that the AER will be at least 7 miles and perhaps as much as 16 miles.

     Time will tell whose crystal ball is all fogged up. Fleet sales of the Plug-in Prius with lithium battery is expected before the end of this year (2009).  
     
     (Quote)

152. 
     
     

     Michael Robinson Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 11:08 pm

     NiMH should not be written off. There is more nickel than
     Lithium in the world. As far as which car is better, nobody
     knows what the Volt will really do in real world driving
     because it isn’t extensively tested. Will the batteries
     going into Volts be of high quality? Lithium ION technology
     is not as well known as Nickel Metal Hydride tech. Add to
     this the scarcity of Lithium in the world, it is only the 33rd
     most abundant element on the planet where most of it is
     in China and Peru.

     If the Prius is $42k and it doesn’t go as far on electricity alone
     as the Volt, that will be a problem for Toyota.

     Fuel Cell vehicles have gone up to 480 miles on a single load of
     hydrogen with the heater etcetera running. Hydrogen is not free,
     but it has to be produced to refine crude oil into gasoline. With nitrogen doped carbon nanotubes functioning as a platinum replacement, it may be possible to outfit gas stations with small electrolyzers and solar panels. Another option in the short term
     is reforming methane into hydrogen. The source could be cow manure, horse manure, chicken manure, garbage dumps,
     etcetera.

     I have very little faith in the battery industry. Lithium is the
     lightest metal on earth and already we are probably seeing
     the most advanced Lithium batteries that are ever going to
     be produced. The next move is possibly nano structured
     carbon batteries, but who knows what they will weigh let
     alone what they will cost let alone if carbon can be used
     to produce a battery.

     For the Volt to be profitable, that price tag for the battery has to come down by a factor of 10 or for the same money, space,
     and weight the AER has to triple. The more power the battery contains, the more dangerous it is.

     Fuel Cell vehicles are impractical because the fuel cell is too
     expensive. Before a replacement for platinum was found,
     fuel cells had dropped to be 10 times the price they need to
     be to be commercialized. Over 50% of the fuel cell price is
     the rare and precious platinum. Keep in mind also that fuel
     cells are expensive at this point because they are hand
     assembled.

     Fuel Cell vehicles are impractical because there is no hydrogen
     infrastructure. Easily fixed for $200 billion or less. Hydrogen can
     be had by electrolysis, bacterial action, by reacting aluminum with
     water, by reforming methane, by mixing hydrochloric acid with aluminum, by producing Magensium Hydride Slurry and mixing it
     with water, etcetera. The full hydrogen infrastructure isn’t needed
     to support the needed research to get fuel cell cars commercially
     viable.

     Hydrogen isn’t safe. Wrong, hydrogen in the open air travels up
     at 40 mph because it is lighter than air. The Hindenburg was coated with rocket fuel, that is why the flames were orange instead
     of blue. Hydrogen does not pool and unless there is the right combination of hydrogen and oxygen it will not ignite. Fuel cell
     cars don’t burn hydrogen at all, they are electrochemical.
     Hydrogen is so small it travels through micron sized holes in
     metals, but there are many inexpensive materials that can be
     used to make pipes that will contain hydrogen.

     Fuel cells that use platinum are currently 10x too expensive. The
     platinum which accounts for over 50% of the cost of the fuel cell
     can be replaced with cheaper more readily available materials
     that actually perform better. Fuel cell cars unlike hybrids,
     especially if bacteria and/or renewable energy is used to provide
     the hydrogen they run on, will not emit any pollutants. They emit
     water, but no more than what a typical gasoline car does.  
     
     (Quote)

153. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 3rd, 2009 at 11:30 pm

     #142 stealth in J’Rahm Age Says: Electric transmissions suffer what I will call the “Triple the Max” penalty. Simply put if you want 100 hp at the wheel of the vehicle you need a 100 hp electric motor connected to the wheel. Plus you need a 100 hp generator to create electricity; plus you need a 100 hp engine to drive the generator. You are running 300 hp worth of motor/engine (all at their maximum) but only getting 1/3 of the work done.
     ————————————————————————————–
     This is not right. The Volt uses a 150hp electric motor, but only a 75 hp engine/generator. The battery is used for max power when the engine is running. See here for details:
     http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg

     The Volt uses an induction electric motor, which is relatively small and light. For example, the Tesla Roadster’s 255hp electric motor only weighs 70 pounds and is about the size of a watermelon. Also, induction motors are cheaper to build since there are no magnets involved. The control algorithms for the induction motor are more complicated, which raises engineering costs, but the important recurring costs are relatively low.

     So compare that to the cost and weight of a CVT transmission used in a conventional hybrid.  
     
     (Quote)

154. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 12:59 am

     #152 Michael Robinson Says: NiMH should not be written off. There is more nickel than Lithium in the world.
     ————————————————————————————–
     NiMH has 3 big problems:
     1) NiMH is twice the size and weight of Li/Ion
     2) NiMH has self discharge issues (slowly loses charge just sitting there)
     3) Chevron owns the patents, and they won’t let NiMH be used in any kind of EV

     There is no shortage of Lithium. Using only 1/2 of known Lithium reserves, there is enough to make a 20kWh battery for every car in the world. Lithium car batteries will be recycled. We have enough Lithium to last a long, long time.  
     
     (Quote)

155. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 1:10 am

     #152 Michael Robinson Says: For the Volt to be profitable, that price tag for the battery has to come down by a factor of 10 or for the same money, space, and weight the AER has to triple.
     ————————————————————————————–
     CPI says the Volt’s battery costs $8000. CPI also says the battery should cost somewhere between $2000 and $4000 in the next 5-10 years. Meanwhile, the first 200,000 Volts will get a $7500 tax credit. So I think EREVs can be profitable.

     As for triple the AER, that’s just a waste. 80% of the population drives less than 40 miles per day. Those people with longer commutes will probably plug-in at work. There is no reason to drag around a bigger battery for something most people will hardly use.  
     
     (Quote)

156. 
     
     

     stopcrazypp Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 4:14 am

     #152 Michael Robinson
     Nimh is being written off. Even all the new fuel cell vehicles from Honda, Toyota, use Li-ion batteries, even though publicly they say they are unsure about Li-ion

     Give the same amount of subsidies that is required to develop hydrogen infrastructure for street/parking chargers and rapid chargers and you’ll get a lot more for your money. Lucky for plug-ins they can always fall back on existing infrastructure in the absence of subsidies and wait for the market to naturally develop the additional infrastructure.

     Many ways of making hydrogen but few commercially viable, especially in the context of delivering it to cars. Only two so far is electrolysis and methane reformation. Electrolysis you are going to lose to plug-ins both in efficiency (badly) & infrastructure since rather than just a plug, you need to have a electrolyzer & a compressor. Methane reformation ranges from the same to or slightly more than half in terms of well to wheel efficiency depending on if the EV using a combined cycle plant and infrastructure wise is worst than an electrolyzer since methane reformation takes up more space and for mass production of hydrogen you most likely will need to ship the hydrogen rather than producing it locally at the station, which explains why most favor electrolyzers now.

     Electricity, I hopefully don’t need to explain, has way more ways of being commercially produced than hydrogen.

     And about fuel cells being impractical because they are too expensive, that is the reality. Maybe in the future they will get cheaper, but that’s not what matters now. This is especially true since new infrastructure will have to be developed to make it work. No one will develop it until they are sure affordable cars can be made using the technology and with all the automakers hiding the costs of their fuel cell vehicles, we won’t know. We can wait another 10 years to find out, but why not move on?

     The same is true of plug-ins, not going to be very practical because they are expensive. But by current estimates they appear to be at least an order of magnitude (if not two) less expensive than fuel cells and they are cheap enough to make it to the market in the next few years (iMIEV estimate $25k, Aptera $30-40k, Volt $40k), while at the same time can rely on existing infrastructure. Sure, still way expensive compared to gas cars, but it’s not a stretch to say it looks likely they’ll catch up in the next 2-3 gens.

     I’d love to see the same kind of price estimates for fuel cell vehicles, but the best I heard was the Clarity cost 100s of 1000s USD (10s of millions yen) from the pro-hydrogen ex-Honda-CEO Fukui. An improvement over the millions USD that most fuel cell vehicles cost today but still an order of magnitude more than the plug-ins I listed and even more than the most expensive plug-in right now, the Tesla Roadster. He said he expects in 2017, with mass production, the price of a fuel cell vehicle will be less than 10 million yen, or less than $100k. Currently the most expensive plug-in costs $109k, and it’s not even a mass production car, but rather a low volume sports car. You can easily make a plug-in for less than $100k today, so why wait?  
     
     (Quote)

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     Dave K. =D~ Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 5:41 am

     The Volt…

     http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=chevy+volt&b=22&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&tnr=21&vid=0001117411038

     =D~  
     
     (Quote)

158. 
     
     

     Dave K. =D~ Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 5:53 am

     Volt animation…

     http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=chevy+slick+video&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=0001117480497

     =D~  
     
     (Quote)

159. 
     
     

     Nick Lewis Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 7:16 am

     “a 200 volt nickel metal hydride battery”

     What a meaningless figure. The figure that is of importance is the KWh  
     
     (Quote)

160. 
     
     

     Rob Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 8:46 am

     Starcast #8 (”Pissis”) is the kind of juvenile troll whose comments threaten to undermine the utility of this site. Thankfully, there are enough people like Right Lane Cruiser #9 to counteract Starcast’s bombast.  
     
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161. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 8:55 am

     #156 stopcrazypp Says: Lucky for plug-ins they can always fall back on existing infrastructure in the absence of subsidies and wait for the market to naturally develop the additional infrastructure.
     ————————————————————————————–
     Yes, exactly. All we need is more cars like the Volt.  
     
     (Quote)

162. 
     
     

     Dave G Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 11:10 am

     From the article: We know the Volt will cost close to $40,000 …
     ————————————————————————————–
     Lyle – Where does this $40,000 number keep coming from?

     I hear this $40,000 number thrown around in the press all the time, but GM sources seem to give much lower figures.

     For example:
     Lauckner indicated he expects the Volt to cost in the mid 30s…
     http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/17/car-and-driver-on-the-volt-tens-of-thousands-in-first-year-generation-two-after-5-years/

     GM CEO’s Best Guess: Volt Will be Priced in “Mid to High 30’s”
     http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/19/gm-ceos-best-guess-volt-will-be-priced-in-mid-to-high-30s/  
     
     (Quote)

163. 
     
     

     stas peterson Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

     carcus1,

     Once again your crystal ball is cracked.

     The ONLY reason that the Aptera might be considered for legal sale is that they chose a loophole in the Laws and are considered to be a three wheel motorcycle . Such motorcycles have no crash, side impacts, windshield, pedestrian damage, or any of a myriad of other rules and regulations foisted on us by our beloved Socialist masters, to protect us from ourselves.

     Aptera production wil be a few hundred vehicles at most before the loophole is reviewed and regulated to rule them off the road. I am amazed that you didn’t choose another more possible loophole that Chrysler subsidiary, GEM has used to produce 30-50,000 glorified golf carts, also without meeting usual safety standards.

     Nice try. I stand by may statement . A real BEV comes along AFTER the EREV, not before.  
     
     (Quote)

164. 
     
     

     joe obrien Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 5:54 pm

     The Volt with a black interior with red accents looks amazing compared to the white on grey interior.

     Black interior for me!

     If it ever gets made…….  
     
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165. 
     
     

     Kurt Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

     #136 RB – Thanks and I agree!  
     
     (Quote)

166. 
     
     

     Mike D Says:
     March 4th, 2009 at 11:51 pm

     #162

     It’s because everyone likes to round up on price for a negative spin, and eventually it became magically factual  
     
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167. 
     
     

     carcus1 Says:
     March 7th, 2009 at 8:16 am

     #163 stas peterson,

     “Such motorcycles have no crash, side impacts, windshield, pedestrian damage, or any of a myriad of other rules ……”
     ____________________________________________________

     From the Aptera website:

     “Composite body structures provide an impact-resistant exterior that is lighter than steel but three times as strong. Front crash zones incorporate race car technology that absorbs and deflects energy to keep the cabin from harm. Integrated high-strength aluminum door beams transfer crash loads into the body and away from the cabin. And a complement of driver and passenger air bags is incorporated to ensure that each passenger is always secure.”
     http://www.aptera.com/learn.php

     Do you read much?  
     
     (Quote)

168. 
     
     

     Spike Says:
     August 14th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

     The $40,000 on the Volt, comes from GM, the lower prices are what they said earlier in the development. They started when the project was young saying that they would be under $30k, then they crept up thru the 30’s and into the low $40’s. And no less than Rick Wagoneer has said that even at that price, they will lose money on every one they make and sell. Great plan. Let’s see, you are already bankrupt, and that is your plan? And keep in mind that they are billing the Volt as a family car. How many families can and will spend $40k + on a family car? To even beclose to competative, they had to get the government to agree to a $7,500 tax credit just for the Volt. If that isn’t unfair trade practices, I don’t know what is. Besides being more money we as taxpayers are paying to support a formerly privatly held company.
     And yes, Toyota financial borrowed money from thier government, but only because they got better terms than elsewhere. And they borrowed money, like any company has done, that is a BIG difference from the utter and complete bailout that GM got. Toyota would have survived without their government, GM would not have, as no one else would lend GM the money. 2008 was also the 1st year that Toyota had lost money, how many years in a row has GM lost money? At least the last decade or so, they have lost money every year. Not Toyota. GM lost money when times were good, it is not like this economy suddenly took them from making money to losing it. Toyota has mad money every one of the previous like 45 years by comparison.
     As for the sales of the Prius being down, in 2007 they sold 180,000 units in the US alone. In 2008 they sold 160,000 units in the US alone. Is that a drop, yes. But let’s consider that the overall US market constricted on the order of 25% or so, depending on who you talk to. Let’s also consider that the car was a version that had originally been introduced in late 2003, and so was over 4 years old. Most car models sales drop as they get older. Also consider that everyone knew that a new Prius with improvements would be out this year, so anyone who could wait, likely did. To put the 180,000 units in perspective, when introduced in 2003, Toyota said they hoped to sell 60,000 units a year. GM and Ford laughed at Toyota. Also in 2007 that 180,000 units number put it behind only one “domestic” nameplate car, the Impala, who gets a lot of sales to the fleet market while the Prius gets very very few fleet sales.

     As for the price of the new one, yes if you add every option it will put you in the mid 30 range for MSRP. But it starts at the mid 20 range, while the Volt will *start* at the low 40s range, who knows where it will end up fully optioned.
     As for reliability, my 2004 Prius with 90,000 miles on it, the amount spent on repairs, exactly $0. I have only changed the fluids, filters, tires, and wiper blades, nothing else. My Camry before that, went 238,000 miles while only getting 3 repairs — the first not until 180,000 miles. And two of the repairs were for electric window motors, first the driver’s one and then the front passenger one. Who knows how many times they had gone up and down in 200,000 miles. The other repair was a failed sensor. Nothing that ever disabled the car, nothing that ever required the engine or the drivetrain to be opened up or worked on.
     That 180,000 is far far more miles than I even kept my last GM product, or my mom’s last GM product – or the two of them combined. I spent more on that car in 60,000 miles to fix things, than I did on my 238,000 mile Camry, which ran like a top when I sold it.
     The current Prius (the 2010 version has been out for a while now, will outsell the VOLT, there is virtually no question.  
     
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