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GM Says Production of Volt Engines in December 2010 Does Not Delay November Volt Launch
This week GM announced that they will be building Chevy Volt engines in a re-tooled existing plant rather than building a new plant which had been the previous plan.
Within that announcement GM indicated the first of these engines would begin being assembled in December 2010. This led some to speculate that GM would somehow be delaying the long confirmed November 2010 launch date for the car.
I was able to reach GM spokesperson Sharon Basel who denied that was the case. She offers us the following detailed explanation:
The announcement was mainly a confirmation that we will build the Volt engines in an existing plant vs building a new facility. Production will begin in Dec 2010 which is not different than if we had proceeded with a new facility. Our plans all along have been to initially and temporarily source the engines from existing capacity in Europe to meet Volt production timing while we get the Flint engine capacity installed and ramped up. This direction has not changed with the announcement. It is not unusual for GM to do this. As a global company, we leverage our global manufacturing base to meet fluctuating demand in various markets as needed. That’s what we are doing here. In the long term, however, we source powertrains within the region the vehicles are produced. In that regard, Aspern Austria is our primary source for the engines in the European market and Flint will be the primary source long term for the North American market.
89 Responses to “GM Says Production of Volt Engines in December 2010 Does Not Delay November Volt Launch”
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:01 am
From the article:
Production will begin in Dec 2010 which is not different than if we had proceeded with a new facility.
I read this twice and I am confused. Does it say they are going to begin producing the Volt in December 2010?
If so, we are looking at early 2011 for it to hit the showrooms.
Am I misreading this?
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Hi Rashid, the December 2010 is with regard to the engine production:
_we will build the Volt engines in an existing plant vs building a new facility. Production will begin in Dec 2010 which is not different than if we had proceeded with a new facility. _
They phrased that ackwardly, but it looks straight.
20 months from the start of planned Volt sales and they claim it is still on track, these words are going to be even harder to take back if they are telling tall tales in order to get more government loans.
We will see, but I am looking at the Volt (and GM) more as a longshot possibility with regard to being a builder of EREV cars in the future due to the apparent inability of the 3 groups, (management, the UAW and the bondholders) to take meaningful steps to preclude Chapter 7 proceedings. Maybe they can do it in Chapter 11, but I kind of doubt that they are all ready to take the hits that will allow this company to survive. BEV doesn’t work for me, so I will be looking forward to seeing who can build me a car that seats 4+, has at least a 20 mile AER, with a net price after tax credit under $30k, and hopefully it will look like a car, not a toy. If not GM, maybe Ford will step up to the plate with a PHEV20 or PHEV30 Ford Escape.
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Rashiid:
I think you are mis-reading the article. When she says, “Production will begin in Dec 2010 …” she is referring to the production of the 1.4 litre engines in Flint, MI, not the Volt. The first few months of Volt production will source their 1.4 litre engines from the Austria plant. Then as the Flint plant comes on line in early 2011, the engines will then be sourced from that facility. The Volt itself is still scheduled for debut in November 2010, (barring any turmoil from say a GSB or something).
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:22 am
#1 Rashiid Amul:
Well, I think that you have to have your secret decoder ring to really understand these press releases. That said, my interpretation is that production of the Volt will begin on schedule. Engines will be supplied from Austria to power Volts produced before this US plant comes on stream.
I still think that your point is valid, however. I f they start production of Volts in October, or whenever it is, I can’t see very many hitting the showrooms before early 2011 anyway.
Or are they saying that production will start earlier, and the first deliveries will be in October? Where did I put that !@#$%^ ring anyway?
Always assuming that there is a GM in 2010/11. I note that we are the now the proud owners of the majority of the stock in Citibank. Kevin Phillips has some really scathing things to say about Citibank in his books “American Theocracy” and “Bad Money”, both of which forecasted the present economic debacle well in advance. Weren’t they involved in some serious drug money laundering scandals just a few years ago?
Yesterday, I commented about the size of the bailouts to AIG vs. GM. Laura kindly corrected my numbers as being WAY too low. Ditto for Citibank. Plus the faint aroma of quasi-criminal activities wafting around the history of Citibank. Gee I’m proud to own it!
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:26 am
When they are losing nearly $10 billion every 3 months, Dec 2010 seems a looong way off. I just don’t see how they can put out these announcements with that looming it the background. It’s like being on a sinking cruise ship and making plans for your shore excursions.
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:29 am
I am joining in late, but I was wondering: BEV? AER? I am not familiar with the lingo, so I need a refresher!
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Glad GM is on schedule…but where is the production Volt? It sounds like it takes years to turn this behemoth around doesn’t it? Lyle, why don’t you ask to schedule your media drive in March, 2009.
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:39 am
*** ONLY 641 days to go ***
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Brent, you are not going to believe some of the acronyms on this site!
BEV is Battery Electric Vehicle
AER is All Electric Range
NPNS is No Plug No Sale
ICE is Internal Combustion Engine
ER-EV is Extended Range Electric Vehicle, like the Volt, the hyphen is optional, but I like to emphasize the EV part.
PHEV is Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle, usually followed by 10 or 20 which indicate how many miles it is primarily electric. I.e. PHEV40.
Then it starts to get more complicated…
JGTVWOTR is Just Get The Volts Wheels On The Road
Which ones did I leave out?
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:54 am
It sounds to me like the engines coming in from Austria, which will be installed in the rollout batch of Volts in Nov 10′ will be a VERY limited number.
Does anyone have any record of GM suggesting the number of engines being shipped over?
Reading between the lines, it sounds like we will have to wait until engines from the Flint line go into the Volt before we will really have a hope of getting one.
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:59 am
ziv – I think you left out BAS among others
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I heard it was going to be only limited fleet leases first, then testing, then maybe some limited fleet sales, then testing, then ? …
Sounds like the consumer can expect retail Volts sold at dealerships when? 2012? 2015? Never, as usual? (Tomorrow’s always a day away).
GM – put them out now to retail sales in all states, assist consumers with credit access, and shut up.
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Just build my Volt Dangit!!!
Engine shmingine. GM needs to sell an early version, Juneish 2010 without the ICE and without all this crap…
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!
The lack of the above should be enough weight reduction to increase AER to at least an additional 10 miles AER.
I guess if they want to make $$ on those items they can be “Addons” later.
Back to basics boys!
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I’d encourage GM to open their mouths wide and market these properly, but based on their past dismal mismarketing record and ever collapsing market share, it probably is better if they just shut up, produce the vehicles as good as possible ASAP, support them flawlessly and keep their mouths shut, letting the product and consumer word of mouth do the talking.
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“the long confirmed November 2010 launch date for the car”
Sounds to me like an early 2011 Launch date. Does anyone else read it this way as well?
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
@GM marketing 14
“I’d encourage GM to open their mouths wide and market these properly, but based on their past dismal mismarketing record and ever collapsing market share…”
Naw, they market. Even in this phuked up economy and the demand for smaller vehicles, more fuel efficient gas sippers GM still doesn’t get it. Case in point their latest commercials pointing out the size/volume of their products to others….
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/26/much-ado-about-howie-chevrolet-traverse-spots-cause-some-conste/
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
#9 ziv – a few were overlooked.
lol – Laugh Out Loud
imho – In My Humble Opinion
btw – By The Way
I never use the 2nd one – my opinion is so un-humble, it needs its own zip code. lol:)
BTW, just kidding (barely).
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
#9 ziv:
DBNGCMEMEV – Don’t Buy New Gas Cars, Make ‘Em Make Electric Vehicles (thanks casey)
IYCSANJDSAAA – If You Can’t Say Anythig Nice Just Don’t Say Anything At All (thanks Ruth Park)
And the always lurking but not quite yet fully deployed:
TOTLTPO -Turn Out The Lights The Party’s Over (thanks to Willie Nelson and “Dandy” Don Meredith)
LOL – priceless
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
G2H4L – “Going To H( . )( . )ters for lunch”
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February 27th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I think the engine is the least of their problems. It is already in production at an existing plant.
The critical path components are:
The electric engine controller(s)
The generator
The all important battery
I suspect a lot of these components will be hand made in small batches in order to meet the initial production deadline. Volt’s won’t be rolling off the line every 45 seconds like a normal plant for quite some time.
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Hopefully GM will get all the money they need at the end of March and any future requests they require over the next 21 months to produce the VOLT on time and at any cost!
We need the VOLT ASAP – only 15,384 hours to go !!!
GO EV!
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
#13 CaptJackSparrow
You may be on to something…
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
December 2010…..So at a burn rate of $3 billion/month, that comes out to a nice round $66 billion of handout money.
Nice.
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Ok , this is something I would really like to know .
Who is making the Electric Drive motors , what do they look like , and what country are they being made in ?
Something else , who is making the controller and the capacitors for this magic car ?
I cant imagine an advanced Hybrid car being made without a good bank of capacitors , it would be foolish .
Have the bids been put out yet for any of the major components ?
Who is making the dash and the seats for GM ?
Are they coming from Magna ?
What about the door panels ?
Who is making the wiring harness assemblies ?
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
#21 Anthony BC Says only 15,384 hrs to go.
Nice one – why didn’t i think of that..
Only 923,040 minutes to go.
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February 27th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
@Keith 24
“Something else , who is making the controller and the capacitors for this magic car ?”
If you are asking if there is an “Ultracapacitor” used on this car, the answer is No. I consider this an inherent design flaw myself, but that’s just me. They should have one parallel the battery to soften the blow and surge of acceleration and regen braking. This will extend the life of the battery pack itself. Not really a whole lot of engineering to do but accelerated life and climate range testing will need to be done.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
“December 2010…..So at a burn rate of $3 billion/month, that comes out to a nice round $66 billion of handout money.”
Rather than 66 billion more make the Volt, I think it would be cheaper for the government to just buy us all Teslas.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
No real difference that I can see.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
CaptJackSparrow
“Something else , who is making the controller and the capacitors for this magic car ?”
If you are asking if there is an “Ultra capacitor” used on this car, the answer is No. I consider this an inherent design flaw myself, but that’s just me. They should have one parallel the battery to soften the blow and surge of acceleration and regen braking. This will extend the life of the battery pack itself. Not really a whole lot of engineering to do but accelerated life and climate range testing will need to be done.
——————————————————–
Are you certain about this , it would be akin to putting together an electrical circuit without a fuse. A very big mistake .
They sure have the time and with the money spent on this already and the monies to be spent on it GM would look like they don’t know what they are doing . They will look like fools as anybody who is knowledgeable about physics and electric motors understands the operation of capacitors and motors. If you are going to start a motor under load you had better put capacitors inline or you will burn out the motor in a short time unless you have one very large motor and a small load. That is not the case here at all. Even small A/C units have a start capacitor to prevent compressor burnout in the event that pressures haven’t had time to equalize between start ups.
No Jack this is definitely not just you , anybody who knows electric motors and their applications knows about this . They just don’t know that it might possibly happen . many people don’t even know that this site exists.
Maybe Lyle could bring it up in a question form to GM soon , maybe they aren’t as knowledgeable as we think they are and should be .
They could get all the acceleration from the capacitors and capture all the regenerated power when slowing down and increase the driving range a lot if they were in stop and go traffic if they were used along with the battery .
Starting from a dead stop is like a dead short on the battery and will shorten its life and make it produce a lot of unnecessary heat , capacitors will either eliminate that or make it much less.
Ultra capacitors made by Maxwell called Boost cap are ideal for this application.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Keith
CaptJackSparrow
The Prius has big caps to buffer the regen and short bursts of high power to the traction motor that helps to limit battery wear.
Does any one know how the Volt handles this?
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
The Volt will never be viable from a cost analysis for the average car buyer. Much wiser to choose the superior technology found today (that’s right, no waiting). Today’s Prius has technology that is beyond those found in a future Volt.
Do you want 50 MPG TODAY ???
The Prius is your answer at an affordable price (something the Volt will never have).
I invite the viewers of this site to strongly consider the Prius for your next Purchase. Do the Math. You won’t be disappointed.
Toyota Nation
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
#9 & # 6
Don’t forget BS
There’s tons of it all over the place.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
#30 Jeffhre Says: The Prius has big caps to buffer the regen and short bursts of high power to the traction motor that helps to limit battery wear. Does any one know how the Volt handles this?
————————————————————————————–
The Volt has a much larger battery. A larger battery provides 2 things:
1) More energy storage, kWh, electric range
2) More instantaneous power, kW, acceleration
The power works both ways, which means a bigger battery is also better for regenerative braking.
With this in mind, I don’t believe the Volt needs capacitors.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
#31 Akio Toyoda Says: I invite the viewers of this site to strongly consider the Prius for your next Purchase. Do the Math. You won’t be disappointed.
————————————————————————————–
We’ve done the math. With a typical driving pattern:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt …………………… 37
Prius …………………. 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
Time to revise your sales pitch…
What would be really great is if Toyota decided to build a range extended EV. Between the Prius and the Volt, there’s no comparison.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
#23 JEC:
Chump change compared to AIG and Citibank.
#31 Akio Toyoda:
You should only live so long, brother.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Oh yeah, and this is very important.
What color will the power cord be ?
Do we have a choice on this ?
It’s about time GM clarified this for us.
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February 27th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
#34
37 gallons per year! Yes!
The ability to supply our oil from home, in the United States…..priceless
Chevy Volt! Michigan Engines, Michigan Cars! Detroit will rise again!
God Bless America!
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February 27th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
# 36 Redeye Good One! – with all the gummint money involved I’m sure the cord will be in the RED. That’s a double entendre, 5 points.
#31 Toyota Nation – Samurai Warrior – Do you still eat American GIs?
No wonder you like us so much.
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February 27th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
As much as I wanted a Volt, (and I still think the basic idea is the best out there)….I don’t see it happening with the current GM. It will need to be picked up by someone else or done by a “reformulated” GM after C11 with major government support. It will be too expensive for the average Joe to buy and will not save GM financially. Unfortunately, GM has little else in the pipeline for their bread and butter car(s). The Cruz is a day late and a dollar short, a last ditch attempt to come up with something desirable in a $4/gal world. Sorry, but the new Honda Insight and Prius and a whole slew of affordable high mpg cars are here or just about here and the Cruz will be lost in the shuffle. I remember Lutz stating a while back that if gas goes back down the Volt will be in trouble. Well, that has come to fruition along with a major economic meltdown so it is a double whammy. A truly sad time for the American car industry.
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February 27th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Redeye Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Oh yeah, and this is very important.
“What color will the power cord be ?
Do we have a choice on this ?
It’s about time GM clarified this for us.”
LOL I was thinking the same thing!
If GM would just build a volt with a 40′ yellow with pink poka dot cord and sell it for under $10,000 they would sell millions of them. ;>)
I’ll take my volt with a short black 110 cord, No color, no 220, no long cord, no chargeing stations, you can shake it or stir it if you wish
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February 27th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
GM should take 1 of each 3 billion the government loans to them and invest in the stock market. I can give them three sure triples for the quarter. On the next earnings report they can list the gains as “buoyancy related transactions” or “unrealized credit injections”. Wouldn’t it be great for GM to come back in three months and say, ‘We’re realizing enough profit now to partially pay back the government loans”. GM stock climbs from $2 to $6 in 30 minutes.
yes we can?
=D~
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February 27th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Keith #24
GM has already built an electric car, the EV-1. I don’t know much about capacitors and the like but I assume they were part of the black box that controlled the motor. I’m sure it will work properly, if and when it gets built.
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February 27th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
#13 I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
Why has nobody mentioned that this is an EV, not an ER-EV. You can even build yourself one today with a purchased kit.
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February 27th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
@Jeffhre & Keith
—————————————-
AFAIK, there has been no mention of a buffering cap for the battery. I’ve only been here a year but to “my recollection senator…” there was no mention. If there was it was me bringing it up.
@Dave G 33
“The Volt has a much larger battery. A larger battery provides 2 things:
1) More energy storage, kWh, electric range
2) More instantaneous power, kW, acceleration
The power works both ways, which means a bigger battery is also better for regenerative braking.”
True to a certain extent. Here’s a scenario for just the battery. We know the battery is 400V and 16KW i.e. 40AH. The Volt has an approx 120KW motor. If you are decelerating and brake regen is occuring and the AC induction motor is spitting back out 45A @ 400V then your battery may get fried. But GM has protection so the bat doesn’t fry, at the most you will get 40A back in, in a very short period of time. The rest of the energy is wasted. An UltraCap can suck up all the energy brake regen can deliver as well as spit it out in cycle counts of up to a million+. So for “Instantaneous power” the UltraCap is king, the bat will just slowly kick in as Cap charge is depleted. This buffers the bat thus increasing reliability and life.
That was just a least case scenario because if the AC induction motor can use up 120KW, it can definately produce at the least 100KW for brake regen in a short period of time. Which tells me that the Volts brake regen is in the “miniscule” range of only 1C of the battery capacity. So out of 100KW regenerated all you can capture is 16KW leaving 84KW to be wasted to heat or nothingness.
I was kind of surprised this was/is never mentioned when it comes to the battery.
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February 27th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Mass protests have erupted through Europe against GM. Lead by tens of thousands at Opel who want to disengage from GM. This is wonderful news. I just wish that the GM Workers in the USA had half the nads that those euros got.
Where are the U.S. protesters against GM ??? (wusses)
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February 27th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
RE #44 CaptJackSparrow Say
I think that you made a mistake here when you said:
“True to a certain extent. Here’s a scenario for just the battery. We know the battery is 400V and 16KW i.e. 40AH. ”
The battery is about 400V (or high 300’s) but it is 16KWh not 16KW.
The KW capacity is going to be much higher, I’m sure it’s on this site somewhere, but think more like the size of the traction motor 120KW peak, maybe 80KW sustained. That’s 200A (at 400V).
For anyone that wants in horse power add about 40% to get values from KW to HP (I cannot remember the exact conversion).
Think about it this way. You can decelerate just as quickly as you can accelerate when it comes to ability of the battery to absorb the energy. i.e. 0 to 60 in 8 seconds, so you can do 60 to 0 in 8 seconds without needing an ultra cap. So other than an emergency stop the friction brakes won’t get a lot of wear and tear. Since the traction motor and battery are “well matched” and the sole drive mechanism (in EV mode) there is little need for ultra caps.
With the Prius you can do 0 to 30 in 15 seconds maybe in EV mode. So you will only be able to do 30 to 0 in 15 seconds without having to buffer for the weakest component which is in this case the Priuse battery.
I am assuming that the batteries are as good at absorbing charge as they are at discharging.
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February 27th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
We’ve done the math…
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt …………………… 37
Prius …………………. 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
Time to revise your sales pitch…
____________________________
Who’s sales pitch? The $382 depicted above (difference between Volt & Prius at $2 per gallon) is rather trivial overall. I did the math too…
$700 monthly payments for 5-year loan for a $35,000 Volt.
$500 monthly payments for 5-year loan for a $25,000 Prius.
The annual loan payment difference is $2,400.
Looks like you’ll have $2,018 more at the end of the year with a Prius.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
#9 & # 6
4Q = FU
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
#44 CaptJackSparrow Says: We know the battery is 400V and 16KW i.e. 40AH. The Volt has an approx 120KW motor. If you are decelerating and brake regen is occuring and the AC induction motor is spitting back out 45A @ 400V then your battery may get fried. But GM has protection so the bat doesn’t fry, at the most you will get 40A back in, in a very short period of time. The rest of the energy is wasted.
————————————————————————————–
I believe you are confusing energy and power. Energy, expressed as kWh, is how much total juice the battery can store. Power, expressed in kW, is how fast the juice can flow in or out.
We know that the Volt’s battery can store 16kWh of energy. We also know the battery can source at least 120kW of power (probably more), otherwise it wouldn’t power the electric motor in EV mode. Batteries usually source and sink around the same amount, so the battery in the Volt should be able to sink at least 120kW for regenerative braking, which corresponds to 300 amps of current at 400 volts DC.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
#23 JEC says “So at a burn rate of $3 billion/month, that comes out to a nice round $66 billion of handout money.”
That assumes a run rate of 9M cars per year. If that’s the run rate for that long then GM will be the least of our problems.
FWIW the contrast between the bankers and the car manufacturers is astounding. The bankers, those geniuses who are responsible for, among other things, the dismal state of the car industry, alternative between begging for billions more on the one hand and complaining about government interference with their business judgement on the other (latest exhibit: Northern Trust takes $1.5B in taxpayer money, stages a golf tournament where they give away rhinestone purses and then claim that they never wanted the money). The car companies at least just get down to business.
Probably the difference between Never Never Land and the reality of a down and dirty blue collar industry.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
#46 john1710a says “Looks like you’ll have $2,018 more at the end of the year with a Prius.”
Until you file your tax return and get a $7500 refund, at which point you’ll be $5,500 ahead. Time for Hawaii!
#48 Dave G – Like you say.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
#46 john1701a Says: Who’s sales pitch? The $382 depicted above (difference between Volt & Prius at $2 per gallon) is rather trivial overall. I did the math too…
————————————————————————————–
By that reasoning, you should forget the Prius and buy a Corolla for $15,350. But if you add in all the hidden costs of oil, you will see a number much higher than $2 per gallon.
http://www.iags.org/n1030034.htm
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
@Mark Bartosik 45
I think that you made a mistake here when you said:
“True to a certain extent. Here’s a scenario for just the battery. We know the battery is 400V and 16KW i.e. 40AH. ”
The battery is about 400V (or high 300’s) but it is 16KWh not 16KW.
The KW capacity is going to be much higher, I’m sure it’s on this site somewhere, but think more like the size of the traction motor 120KW peak, maybe 80KW sustained. That’s 200A (at 400V).
—————————————————–
Max C discharge rate can not be more than 4C (160A). Not many prismatic cells can reach that point without voiding warranty. KWh rating is just 16KW * 1Hour = 16KWh. KW to HP basically .754KW = 1HP.
“Think about it this way. You can decelerate just as quickly as you can accelerate when it comes to ability of the battery to absorb the energy. i.e. 0 to 60 in 8 seconds, so you can do 60 to 0 in 8 seconds without needing an ultra cap. ”
That’s assuming a 1:1 AKA Unity and that is damn near impossible.
Laws of thermodynamics prevail here, for now.
Unless the AC induction motor sucks and can’t produce 400V @ at least 40A then it’s functionality for brake regen sucks, better than nothing though. However, I believe it can at the least produce 80KW – 100KW, which still get’s wasted because 16KW is the most you can absorb which also means that Lenz law is limitted to 16KW for “Braking”.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
I have still questions on the extended range :
Reason :
One school of thought says there are losses and due to this some say the plug-in range is going to be less – and wikipedia supports it when i read about similar configuration on trains.
The second school of thoughts says that the average efficiency of an ice engine is only 20% and the optimal is 37%. In this case the ice engine is running on the optimal or more range. this will result in better ice utilization. The power requirements on different driving conditions are very different and the power requirements of engine on conditions and even load . By better control of power distribution, It will be very high range and the worst will be same as of the ICE range.
I wonder volt is going to have a extended range of 50 mpg or 120 mpg. The question is again : with a fully charged battery and 1 gallon of gas – if i drive – how much miles the volt is going to go ?
expecting answers :
a) 40 + 50 miles
b) 40 + 120 miles
c) 40 + less than 50 miles
d) 40 + more than 50 miles but less than 120 miles
assumption : 50 miles is ICE engine range.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
The power cord should be green and manufactured in the emerald city of Oz!
More important than color is wire gauge. Longer power cords need a lower wire gauge number to minimize voltage drop.
Thanks Lyle for the verification of the November 2010 VOLT launch date.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
#46 john1701a Says: $700 monthly payments for 5-year loan for a $35,000 Volt.
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GM says the Volt will cost mid-to-high 30s:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/19/gm-ceos-best-guess-volt-will-be-priced-in-mid-to-high-30s/
This corresponds to around $30K after the tax credit.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
#52 CaptJackSparrow Says: However, I believe it can at the least produce 80KW – 100KW, which still get’s wasted because 16KW is the most you can absorb which also means that Lenz law is limitted to 16KW for “Braking”.
————————————————————————————–
Where is this 16kW power number coming from?
The only 16 I’ve heard of was for energy (kWh).
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
#52 CaptJackSparrow Says: Max C discharge rate can not be more than 4C (160A). Not many prismatic cells can reach that point without voiding warranty.
————————————————————————————–
Remember that the battery pack has hundreds of cells in a series-parallel configuration. Bub Lutz put the number at 500 cells. It only takes around 100 Li/Ion cells in series to get close to 400 volts DC. So the Volt’s pack will have several cells in parallel.
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
@Dave G 56
“Where is this 16kW power number coming from?”
At 1C, the battery is rated at 400V @ 40A isn’t it? Or am I wrong?
Charge and discharge is not always the same. Usually charge is rated (for prismatic cells) from 1C, 2C, and 3C where C is the rated amperage of the battery.
Discharge has usually a higher C rating from 1C, 2C, 3C and 4C and sometimes 5 or 6 but that is very rare and “cost prohibitive”.
So at discharge for normal 16KW acceleration your 400V battery is spitting out 40A and at hard accelleration when my wife drives it’s at 120KW, the bat is spitting out 300A or 7.5C. I guess if this is true, here’s the reason why the battery is so damn expensive.
All this assumes 100% running on battery.
Which leads to the question, what’s the MAX/Pulse output and input of the Battery pack?
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February 27th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
#53 Unni Says: …with a fully charged battery and 1 gallon of gas – if i drive – how much miles the volt is going to go ?
expecting answers :
a) 40 + 50 miles
b) 40 + 120 miles
c) 40 + less than 50 miles
d) 40 + more than 50 miles but less than 120 miles
————————————————————————————–
Either a) or c).
GM originally stated 50 MPG, but they’ve been very quiet about that recently.
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February 27th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
#54 Mark Z Says: More important than color is wire gauge. Longer power cords need a lower wire gauge number to minimize voltage drop.
————————————————————————————–
We went through this 18 months ago in the forums. Bottom line: the energy loss is not a lot. An inexpensive 14 gauge extension cord should be fine for most people. For 100 feet or longer, a 12 gauge extension cable would be better.
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February 27th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
#58 CaptJackSparrow Says: At 1C, the battery is rated at 400V @ 40A isn’t it? Or am I wrong?
————————————————————————————–
I have no idea what the specs are on the individual cells. All I’ve heard is:
• The battery pack stores 16kWh
• The battery pack sources at least 120kW peak (probably much more)
• The battery pack is made up of 300-500 cells (various accounts from GM on this)
• Each battery cell measures very close to 4 volts fully charged.
At around 400 volts DC, you can deduce there are 3-5 cells in parallel. So whatever the amperage specs are for each cell, you would multiply that by 3-5 to get the amperage specs for the entire battery pack.
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February 27th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
john1701a
If you are financing 100% of a car and making no down payment, gas is the least of your problems. In that case it is ALWAYS cheaper to keep your current car even if its a hummer and gas prices are $4 a gallon.
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February 27th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
…I think this thread has strayed somewhat
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February 27th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Until you file your tax return and get a $7500 refund, at which point you’ll be $5,500 ahead.
__________________________
That’s only if the selling price for Volt is $35,000 in 2011.
Didn’t notice how I underpriced Volt and overpriced Prius, eh? Consider a more realistic $39,499 for the one and $23,999 for the other.
That’s a difference of $5,500. What an amazing coincidence.
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February 27th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
#49 DonC:
Did you happen to see the story on the Yahoo news page this PM – AIG back for another $50 Billion. That seems to make a total of $200 Billion, of which something like $50 – $60 Billion has already been written off.
I dunno, but you can check it out for yourself.
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February 27th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
#63 john1701a says “That’s only if the selling price for Volt is $35,000 in 2011.”
The credit is good for the first 250,000 Volts starting January 1 2010. I assumed the Volt was priced at $37,500. As for the Prius at $24K, maybe now when cars are in the hopper but everyone I know who has a Prius paid $28K-$29K. I could have used $30K and $29K and the Prius would really have looked bad.
#65 noel park says “AIG back for another $50 Billion”
Yeah. I think they’re going to try and break it up. The problem AIG is having is that it’s trying to sell units when no one wants to get into the financial sector. Sort of like the market for high end homes …. I think the plan is to give the government more stock in return for relaxing the loan terms. Could serve as a template for breaking up Citi.
FWIW the Obama Adminstration now says that the government overpaid for the assets it bought under the first round of TARP by 21%, revised upwards from 13%. That’s a big number. Ouch! We are paying big time for subscribing to the notion that financial markets are self-organizing and self-regulation.
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February 27th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Until that glorious day when VOLTs roll into a chevy showroom, everyone that reads this blog must convince all family and friends to keep buying vehicles like Camaro, Traverse, and even Silverado so that GM has enough profits to last until 2010.
It does not seem likely that the public will continue to support billions in bailout money every 90 days for them to avoid BK until then.
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February 27th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Put your money where your mouth is .
Buy $500 of GM stock.
People will have to buy cars soon.
Hopefully they will get threw there thick heads to buy American
and help out our brothers and sisters.
Keep our money here .
I went to the Chicago Auto show and GM stole the show.
Every one wants American auto industry succeed .
The Volt display was packed!
I think things are looking good!
I’m betting on GM
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February 27th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
49 DonC
“Latest exhibit: Northern Trust takes $1.5B in taxpayer money, stages a golf tournament where they give away rhinestone purses and then claim that they never wanted the money”
———————————————————————
One of many stories of banks seeming to not understand that they are taking the money, without any real reason, except greed.
A local story broke in WI a couple weeks back. Associated Bank was sending its top performers to an all paid, exclusive resort in Mexico for a week. A local reporter broke the story, and then someone called the CEO of Associated, and he basically said he saw no issue, or had not problem sending his top performers on a trip.
Well, after a little political heat the CEO changed his mind and canceled the trip.
Anyway, I have an account with Associated, and tomorrow I will be opening a new account, at a non-TARP bank, then after I get my accounts established and get my checks, I will be dropping them like a bad habit.
Here is a link to the full story. Warning! Do not read this if you have high blood pressure or suffer from TARPOLA.
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/noquarter/39504852.html
Bye bye Associated!
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February 27th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
oh the drama…
It appears that the automotive market will be soft for the next 3 to 6 months. I plan on taking the Ninja around to the local car dealerships on a sniff mission to see how sales are going. Two weeks ago I saw a car carrier big rig with a few new Impala and a Cadillac. Not much of any brand seen on the freeways.
=D~
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February 27th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
70 Dave K.
Oh, you make me jealous. Spring is coming, and I really miss the days of taking the Katana on a cruise…I really want to get back on the bike, but now with the economy, I will not likely be in the bike market for a while.
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February 27th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
#66 DonC said:
The credit is good for the first 250,000 Volts starting January 1 2010.
===========================
Just a side note: The legislation signed in about a week and a half ago (february 17th) switched it from 250K for the industry to 200,000 per manufacturer.
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February 28th, 2009 at 12:19 am
#24 Keith,
I have those same questions. I’ve seen some bid work but not much. I cant even figure out where the engine block will be cast. Some info I have says Defiance OH, and other info says Saginaw MI.
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February 28th, 2009 at 12:55 am
#59 Dave G : Thanks
why wikipedia says
Fuel efficiency
For trips less than about 40 miles (64 km) per charging cycle, the Volt will not use any onboard gas, so assigning a fuel consumption value which only referred to onboard fuel might not be appropriate. Once the Volt’s battery has discharged to its lower limit set-point, the Volt’s range-extending gasoline engine is expected to get from approximately 50 mpg-US (4.7 L/100 km; 60 mpg-imp) to as much as 150 mpg-US (1.6 L/100 km; 180 mpg-imp) depending on its run-time duty cycles. This is because once the battery has been recharged to an upper limit set-point (by the engine driven 53 kW onboard generator), the internal combustion engine will again shut off. Therefore the variables that contribute to the specific duty cycle periods of the internal combustion engine run-times, will need to be factored in to the Volt’s final fuel economy rating as determined by the EPA
from :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
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February 28th, 2009 at 2:16 am
# 71 JEC,
“Oh, you make me jealous. Spring is coming, and I really miss the days of taking the Katana on a cruise…I really want to get back on the bike, but now with the economy, I will not likely be in the bike market for a while.”
______________________________________________________
Used bikes are cheap. With a few tools, they’ll take you where you want to go.
“That’s all the motorcycle is, a system of concepts worked out in steel. There’s no part in it, no shape in it, that is not out of someone’s mind — number three tappet is right on too. One more to go. This had better be it — .I’ve noticed that people who have never worked with steel have trouble seeing this…that the motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon. They associate metal with given shapes…pipes, rods, girders, tools, parts…all of them fixed and inviolable, and think of it as primarily physical. But a person who does machining or foundry work or forge work or welding sees “steel” as having no shape at all. Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not. Shapes, like this tappet, are what you arrive at, what you give to the steel. Steel has no more shape than this old pile of dirt on the engine here. These shapes are all out of someone’s mind. That’s important to see. The steel? Hell, even the steel is out of someone’s mind. There’s no steel in nature. Anyone from the Bronze Age could have told you that. All nature has is a potential for steel. There’s nothing else there. But what’s “potential”? That’s also in someone’s mind! — Ghosts.”
- Robert M. Pirsig
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February 28th, 2009 at 2:59 am
i am happy that s GM car will be fully made in america
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February 28th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Statik #72
Yea, I started a thread about this in the forum earlier this week but nobody seemed to be bothered by it other than me. I’m happy more vehicles could be covered but I didn’t like the per manufacturer stipulation with the old hybrid tax credits and dislike it more for plug-ins. Illconceived, IMO.
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February 28th, 2009 at 8:36 am
77 koz said:
“Statik, (#72)…Yea, I started a thread about this in the forum earlier this week but nobody seemed to be bothered by it other than me. I’m happy more vehicles could be covered but I didn’t like the per manufacturer stipulation with the old hybrid tax credits and dislike it more for plug-ins. Illconceived, IMO.”
================================
We have a forum? (j/k)
I thought it was some pretty huge news too. I think it is a improvement for companies (like GM) that were likely going to get their butt handed to them in the race to qualify before they run out.
However the overall effect, while supporting ‘more’ of the industry in the long run, certainly slowed the whole process down…there is no longer incentive to get to market quick.
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February 28th, 2009 at 8:45 am
75 carcus1
Ok. But all I want to do is ride.
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February 28th, 2009 at 9:05 am
Interesting….. And way off topic, as usual….
So when will GM start shipping those engines from Austria here for assembly????
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February 28th, 2009 at 9:14 am
#74 Unni – be careful. The last time I mentioned the Volt’s ICE being used to recharge the battery, Dave G nearly took my head off and handed it to me on a platter. You don’t want to upset the G-man, trust me. Remember: Ice = bad, Battery = good. You have been warned.
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February 28th, 2009 at 11:55 am
#46
I’ll spend 2,018 dollars a year to support American workers who support the American economy in the long term!
I do believe this is technology just like a fax machine, DVD player, or flat screen TV. The cost will come down as this product is on the market and they find ways to produce it that cost less. If you want to be first,you’re gonna have to spend $30,000+
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February 28th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Yes, I believe in America, I believe Apple, I believe Berkshire Hathaway
But Not GM. I have enough suffer from what they lie to us…..
They just used these Press release to ask for more money…
So they can pay the Debt interest, UAW and keep their job…
Enough is Enough…..
We have no obiligation for their survial….
GM DOES NOT EQUAL to USA
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March 1st, 2009 at 7:12 am
This makes total sense. GM will temporarily get the engines from Austria (already announced weeks ago), and will open the new American engine plant shortly thereafter. GM has a large inventory of dormant plants; they would be crazy to build a new one.
An interesting side note – MSNBC has an informative article today about Bolivia’s hopes to be the dominant global lithium supplier:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29445248/
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March 1st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
#26 CaptJackSparrow Says: “If you are asking if there is an “Ultracapacitor” used on this car, the answer is No. I consider this an inherent design flaw myself, but that’s just me. They should have one parallel the battery to soften the blow and surge of acceleration and regen braking.”
You could be right, but the huge battery in the Volt will be able to supply and receive a very large amount of current, so the answer isn’t obvious to me. I’m sure GM has weighed the benefits of less charge cycles on the battery and efficiency gains in regenerative braking versus the increases in cost, weight, space, safety risk, and complexity associated with adding ultracapacitors. With access to the technical specifications and their own test data, GM has probably determined that ultracapacitors don’t make sense for the Volt.
#29 Keith says, “… anybody who is knowledgeable about physics and electric motors understands the operation of capacitors and motors. If you are going to start a motor under load you had better put capacitors inline or you will burn out the motor in a short time …”
You are correct. “Start capacitors” are used to soften the inrush current that occurs when you slam a resting, loaded induction motor onto the bus at full voltage. Such is the case when you plug in the air compressor in the garage.
However, unlike the air compressor, the Volt has a motor controller between the motor and the bus. The motor controller will gradually (depending on how hard your foot is into the throttle) ramp up the voltage from zero as the motor accelerates. This eliminates the need for start capacitors.
The motor controller will likely have capacitors internally, but they serve a different purpose (i.e., to filter the pulses on the output).
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March 1st, 2009 at 1:15 pm
#31 Akio Toyoda Says: “The Volt will never be viable from a cost analysis for the average car buyer. Much wiser to choose the superior technology found today (that’s right, no waiting). Today’s Prius has technology that is beyond those found in a future Volt.”
I know I shouldn’t feed the trolls, but …
“Today’s Prius” has the advantage of price and immediate availability, but the rest is B.S.
“Never” is a strong word. None of us can see into the future, so to make absolute statements about the future economic viability of any product is laughable. And if we are honest about what gasoline really costs, the Volt is already economically viable (as has been discussed many times here).
Also, the Prius has NiMh batteries in a parallel hybrid gasoline-only configuration. It is ridiculous to purport that this is comparable (let alone “superior”) to LiIon batteries and full electric vehicle technology.
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March 2nd, 2009 at 12:56 am
#87 Bob G,
“Also, the Prius has NiMh batteries in a parallel hybrid gasoline-only configuration. It is ridiculous to purport that this is comparable (let alone “superior”) to LiIon batteries and full electric vehicle technology.”
______________________________________________________
1. Full Hybrids (aka series/parallel, aka strong hybrid)
The prius, as well as ford escape, fusion. The 2010 prius electric only mode has been increased to 62 mph, ford fusion is 47mph. GM’s 2 mode hybrid is also a full hybrid (slightly different configuration)
2. Power Assist Hybrid (aka parallel)
Honda Integrated Motor Assist
3. Mild Hybrid
eh, probably not worth remembering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Types_by_degree_of_hybridization
Ford and Prius both are rumored to be working with plug in hybrids that have 30+ mile all electric range. Series/parallel plug ins could very well have an advantage by being able to downsize the battery to adjust for price/customer needs. I doubt that GM can downsize the volt battery because operation after customer depletion (i.e. running off of the ice and generator) will result in decreased performance due to generator efficiency losses. That’s my prediction. I’m waiting for GM to prove me wrong.
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March 3rd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Thanks, ziv! It took me a while to get back here, but I’m glad I did!
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