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GM Releases 4th Quarter 2008 Results: Loses $9.6 Billion and Burns $6.2 Billion in Cash

February 26th, 2009 | Posted in: Financial

The beleaguered automaker announced that in the last 3 months of 2008 they lost $9.6 billion for a net loss of $30.9 billion for the year.

The noted that “cash, marketable securities and readily available assets of the Voluntary Employees Beneficiary Association (VEBA) trust totaled $14.0 billion as of Dec. 31, 2008, down from $27.3 billion on Dec. 31, 2007.” That represents a cash burn of $6.2 billion for the quarter.

Revenue for the quarter was $30.8 billion compared to $46.8 billion in the 4th quarter of 2007.

“2008 was an extremely difficult year for the U.S. and global auto markets, especially the second half, ” Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said.“ These conditions created a very challenging environment for GM and other automakers, and led us to take further aggressive and difficult measures to restructure our business.”

GM also said it expects to receive a “going concern” notice by auditors to see if the company is able to continue as a viable company.

Meanwhile today GM executives including CEO Rick Wagoner and Vice President Fritz Henderson are meeting with the President Obama’s Auto Task Force in Washington DC to discuss the possibility of $16.6 billion in further loans to help them achieve profitability by 2011. Reports suggest bankruptcy is not the government’s favored option. So far GM has had to rely on $13.4 billion in government loans to be able continue operations since the end of December.

Read Full GM Press Release

Posted by: Lyle

150 Responses to “GM Releases 4th Quarter 2008 Results: Loses $9.6 Billion and Burns $6.2 Billion in Cash”

Rashiid Amul Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:30 am

From the article:
The beleaguered automaker announced that in the last 3 months of 2008 they lost $9.6 billion for a net loss of $30.9 billion for the year.

—-
Ouch. I have a question. If they lost 30.9 Billion dollars last year, how does 2009 look any better from the economy perspective? How can anyone expect auto sales to make a huge jump this year?

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beachliving Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:32 am

Yup, this is the way it goes.. We all want money we don’t deserve. Guess this explains a lot of what we are into.

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Joe Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Whatever GM has to do, they have to do it fast and I mean fast.
Time is not on their side.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:41 am

So the tallys are in:

Q4 loss: 9.6 billion
2008 loss: 30.0 billion
Cash Burn: 6.2 billion–2.1ish per month…still

Other/new stuff that sucks:
GM’s net pension obligations, is now underfunded by $12.4 billion…guess they are not so good with the investing either. Yet another new reason (like they need more) to go C11.

Equity position moved from ‘just’ -37 billion in 2007 to -86 billion in 2008

GM filed a ‘Form 12b-25,’ which allows them to delay out their 2008 10-k by a couple weeks, with this note, “The company believes this is a prudent step to take at this critical time as it allows more time for thorough review of the extensive financial and other disclosures regarding the events that occurred at year-end 2008 and during early 2009. Additionally, as a result of the bond exchange, GM’s 2008 10-K will contain information regarding executive compensation, which would not normally be disclosed until the proxy statement is issued for GM’s annual stockholder meeting”
–which translates to, “we did some stuff the public is really gonna hate…so like this release, we are go to draw the process out as long as we can.” And in a ‘well duh’ moment, GM ‘expects’ to have a “going concern” opinion from its auditors in that 2008 10-K

Revenue Q4 2008 – $30.6 billion, Revenue Q4 2007 $47 billion, off 35%
———————-

Now here is where it gets fun…when we start to do math! What is the margin they are actually making on sales of cars?

2008 Q4 sales: 30.6 billion
2008 Q4 cost: 38.1 billion
Defecit: 7.5 billion
(This is WAAAY up from 47b in sales off of 49b in cost in 2007)

So riddle me this, how can GM submit a viability plan, or pretend to be viable, if they lose 20% on every car they sell? This is the end result of the classic, ‘borrow money to surivive on the back of increasing revenues, rather than profitability’ When the revenue stops growing (or even slows) the company is in immediate trouble…when it shrinks, the house of cards is exposed and the company is dead instantly because this is not a viable model to do business.

This is the real problem/heart of the matter…as the marketplace shrinks this only becomes more pronounced because GM has such a high portion of their cost of operation tied into obligations and debt. Basically, as they sell less and less cars they have to sell them for more and more…which is not how it works right now. Wags ‘plan’ (the only thing I think he knows) says cut more brands/cars/dealers, but without addressing debt,pension obligations,VEBA,UAW, suppliers etc. that is just a formula to lose more and more money per car. (Hrm…I wonder what happening ‘could’ affect those things?)

One more time: 20%…per car
/33 days until the ‘deadline for viability,’ March 31…tick tock

Full financial pdf:
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/84/84530/Q4_2008_Highlights__Parts_2_and_3.pdf

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Ray Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:43 am

Restructuring, closing dealerships, car sales down…but still the big wigs are acitng like this is all a bad dream that will go away IF the government monies keep coming in…
Cut 50 % of the upper management (it’s dead weight anyways)… and I don’t mean a golden handshake.. just get rid of them..
and start giving buyers of GM vehicles a deal….
I don’t see any dealerships in my area dropping prices or offering extras (free oil changes, window tint, undercoating etc)
I guess the GM dealerships in my area will have all their new cars for sale for a long time..
Hello Toyota, Ford, Honda, Kia, and Suzuki.
Now they are working hard for your money…. and some of them are making money…
Makes you think….

Sept 2009 … the 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid will be in my driveway..

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eurobikedenver Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:44 am

Stick a fork in ‘em. They’re done!

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Starcast Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:50 am

“Meanwhile today GM executives including CEO Rick Wagoner and Vice President Fritz Henderson are meeting with the President Obama’s Auto Task Force in Washington DC to discuss the possibility of $16.6 billion in further loans to help them achieve profitability by 2011″.
.
.
Somewere I heard that “ALL the members of the President Obama’s Auto Task Force own a total of 0 american made cars”
.
Is this true?
If so can you say out of touch?

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:56 am

This paints a pretty bad picture for GM. It is a really big hill for them to climb. Even with taxpayer help, GM is going to have a difficult time recovering. I wish them luck. They are going to really need for auto sales to take off this spring. And not for foreign auto sales to be the one that takes off.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:57 am

#7 Starcast

I heard it was 8 of the 10.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:58 am

What makes GM think they won’t lose another $30 billion this year?!!

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Redeye Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 9:59 am

Sad tale of woe !

GM waited too long to get with it.

Looks hopeless at this point.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:02 am

As far as the Auto Task Force members owning foreign cars, what is the difference between them and us? It is a shame that U.S. government officials don’t own American cars, but can we really blame them? I think the congress could offer a good incentive to purchase American cars (Ford, GM and Chrysler) to spur the economy. Rather than spend the money on many of the things that are in the bills that have been passed lately and those coming up for a vote. Congress is more wasteful than any corporation. They need to get their “house” in order too.

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Matt Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:02 am

Don’t worry, we’re losing 5k apiece…but we’ll make it up on volume.

wait a sec….

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Rashiid Amul Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:04 am

The problem is the perception that Americans make junk.
I work with people that say let them all fail. They will never buy an American car again anyway. Being a former member of this group, I understand the anger and animosity these people have towards American car makers.

The perception, I think, is so prevalent, how can GM make up the lost sales and convince people their cars are good? idk. I just don’t know.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:06 am

One other thing:

I’m sure it is just a coincidence these delayed numbers dropped at the last moment before Wags and Fritz go to talk to Obama’s auto team about more money.

Now GM says they need 15 more days to explore/analyze their year end results and file their 10-K…which also just happens to have all the ugly things like the ‘ongoing concern’ note and the public hot button issue, ‘executive compensations’ in it.

So do they really need more time, or do they need time between the report and getting the meetings done with the gov’t before they come clean about stuff that will be unpopular?

Of interest…those gov’t meetings are closed door. No public disclosure on them. So I’m guessing the official PR line and the actual discussions of the meeting will be slightly different. They have to be talking C11…this ‘viability plan’ stuff is just getting plain comical.

/oh to be a fly on the wall

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:07 am

This news, although expected to be bad, really paints a dismal picture. It is hard to keep any kind of enthusiasm for GM at this point. Right now we all need some good news. We have been feed bad news for so long that I have forgotten how it feels to hear a good news story. Except for some large banks and the auto industry, the economy is not nearly as bad off as it is painted. I know a lot of people is out of work, but things will turn around. What is happening is everyone keeps hearing only bad news and it depresses people to the extent that they don’t want to go out an spend any more money than they absolutely have to. Somewhere that perception must change for our economy to recover.

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john1701a Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:10 am

June 2009 … the 2010 Prius will be in my driveway.

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charlie h Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:13 am

Starcast says, “Somewere I heard that “ALL the members of the President Obama’s Auto Task Force own a total of 0 american made cars” … If so can you say out of touch?”

The Detroit News carried an article about that. In fact, some do own domestic cars, but not the majority. Some don’t own a car at all.

This, though, isn’t “out of touch,” this is REALITY.

The company I work for is in good shape, at HQ there are lots of college degrees, people are paid well. The number of new domestic cars in the parking lot is miniscule. Of those who own late model domestic cars, few want another. These people are, generally, fairly intelligent and they have all reluctantly come to the conclusion that domestic cars are a bad value.

So, the President’s task force isn’t out of touch, they’re fully in touch with reality. It’s Detroit that’s out of touch to think people are going to overlook decades of troublesome cars because of promises that “we’re just as good, now.” Detroit is out of touch to think the “patriotism” card hasn’t been completely played out. Detroit is out of touch to think a “Hail Mary” play, 2 years after the game has ended (the game ended when GM and Chrysler had to get a government backed loan or fold; they are no longer car companies, they are welfare recipients), is going to sell to people as a “viability” plan. Especially when selling said “Hail Mary” car includes a $7500 gift from Uncle Sam with each one.

—

GM hasn’t made a profit for YEARS. I’ve heard it reported that they haven’t had an operating profit (cost of cars < revenue from cars) in a decade. They’ve made a series of poor decisions all along and their response has always been to promote The Next Big Thing.

The Next Big Thing is not going to save GM. GM does not need The Next Big Thing. GM needs:

- A profitable small car program.
- Relief from debts they will NEVER be able to repay.
- Flexible manufacturing (Honda can build anything in their catalog on a single line).
- Marketing with a clue (the hybrid that can also be described as a gas-guzzler is the clearest symptom of a marketing department that should be taken out behind the barn and shot).
- A workforce that cares, top to bottom, about customer value and busts their tuckuses to deliver it.
- A leadership with some humility that doesn’t treat others as though they are stupid (they had to think we’re some serious kind of stupid to believe they’d pay back the government loans in 2012 – as they claimed in the “Viability Plan”).

AFTER they achieve those things, The Next Big Thing will actually work FOR GM instead of against it.

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George Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:16 am

#4 Statik
I agree. Is there some reason why CEO’s can not seek Bankruptcy? ….and why would it cost $100B?
That looks like the only way to change the companies Obligations and debts.
Could there be opportunities for more “start up” car companies like Telsa to buy GM divisions like Saturn with manufacturing to dealership opperations in place! Competition between 6 independent electric car companies could be good.
Like Ma Bell in the 1970’s

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:19 am

#16 n riley said:

This news, although expected to be bad, really paints a dismal picture. It is hard to keep any kind of enthusiasm for GM at this point. Right now we all need some good news. We have been feed bad news for so long that I have forgotten how it feels to hear a good news story. Except for some large banks and the auto industry, the economy is not nearly as bad off as it is painted. I know a lot of people is out of work, but things will turn around. What is happening is everyone keeps hearing only bad news and it depresses people to the extent that they don’t want to go out an spend any more money than they absolutely have to. Somewhere that perception must change for our economy to recover.
=======================
Hey, I have good news!

…remember me lamenting about putting 2% back into the market and buying RY @ $23.75, then it promptly getting smacked down to $20.62 in 10 days?

It is trading at $25.67 now, up about 8%…and bank it.

Huzzah!

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charlie h Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:19 am

Among other changes, GM needs a new Board of Directors. I’d recommend statik for a place on it.

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ES Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:24 am

Hi,

I’ve been lurking on this website for a while, but I haven’t posted anything because I really don’t know anything about cars. I’m here for the environmental and economic issues.

And right now, I am very worried about what a GM collapse will do to the American economy. Although, I now think this was inevitable. And I’m very confused about the situation. So I have a couple of question for anyone who will answer.

About management compensation–during the hearings, Rick Wagoner pledged to take $1 a year in salary until GM paid back the gov’t (which will probably never happen), and he said he didn’t have a golden parachute. And other management was taking a cut. I don’t remember the details, but it sounded significant to me at the time. I’m all for cutting managements salaries, but is there anything left to cut? Am I missing something?

Second, I understand they were in trouble before, but the reason it got this bad this fast is because of the ecnomic situation?

Second, if the dealers aren’t offering discounts, why is GM losing money on each vehicle sold?

Finally, how likely is it that they’ll take Ford down with them?

Thank you.

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Mike Techy Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:29 am

My dad is hell-bent against the domestic automakers. It’s sad but all his problems and negative feelings are a direct result of the dealers he has purchased vehicles from in the past. I’ve told him about cars like the Ford Fusion how it’s great quality and a great deal. It’s not the car or engineering. It’s the private, poorly managed domestic dealerships in our area(not saying all dealerships). These problems can occur with foreign dealers just the same however he has never had a bad experience yet(cross my fingers). He can be one wierd dude when it comes to vehicles.

After news like this I just don’t see how GM can get through this. The losses are very hard for me to comprehend…makes my head spin thinking about it.

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Schmeltz Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:31 am

#16 N. Riley:
Regarding your comments regarding the bad economy and peoples perceptions…Some very true statements you made there. Often times, things like a Recession are made much worse due to the “self-fulfilling prophecy” syndrome that occurs. People become depressed and concerned as they constantly are barraged with depressing news, and then worsen the recession sub-consciously by stemming their own spending. The perception problem needs to be addressed along with the other issues people have as well. Good observation.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:32 am

#19 George said:

Statik–I agree. Is there some reason why CEO’s can not seek Bankruptcy? ….and why would it cost $100B?
That looks like the only way to change the companies Obligations and debts.
Could there be opportunities for more “start up” car companies like Telsa to buy GM divisions like Saturn with manufacturing to dealership opperations in place! Competition between 6 independent electric car companies could be good.
Like Ma Bell in the 1970’s
===========================
No reason why they can’t. Life is just soooo much easier for them (and their jobs/egos more secure) if the gov’t just hands over big bags of money, rather than tearing the whole thing down, then back up again.

I think internally they acquiesced themselves to C11. GM (like all big companies) likes to be ahead of the press curve and to position themselves as favorably as possible before the event (see Q4 over production of vehicles/stockpiling as a precursor to a possible C11).

I don’t see anyone (especially Tesla) buying Saturn…or any other brand right now. No one (at least in the auto business) has that amount of disposable cash…and I’m not talking cost to buy (anyone could probably buy 8-9 different ‘brands’ for a $1), but the cost to continue ongoing operations AND do a ownership/product changeover.

Why would anyone want any of these ‘dead’ brands, when decent/viable brands could also be had for a song, as their parent companies desperately need cash.

Side note: I’m looking for Ford to enter the bailout ring in this round. They could fiscally hold out longer, but I think they are now understanding that their get ‘1 free trip’ to the handout buffet’ coupon now has a expiry date because of the rapid deterioration of GM and Chrysler’s financials.

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Slowdaddy Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:33 am

I just drove downtown today and noticed that the local Pontiac and Saturn dealers are still open. WTF ?
These stupid morons at GM need to start shutting down these makes NOW! It should not take more than a week to shutter these dealerships.
Massive Incompetent Management here.
Obama needs to force this issue: CLOSE DOWN EVERYTHING BUT CHEVY AND CADILLAC.
STOP BURNING THRU TAXPAYERS CASH !!!

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Schmeltz Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:34 am

#4 Statik:

How much time do you give GM before they file for Chap. 11? Do you think they will make it until even March 31???

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Scott Casteel Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:35 am

Just spoke to my brother in Ohio, his manufacturing firm just laid off 600 employees him included. That is 50% of their work force. He said it was a direct result of the auto industry slow down. It is already affecting the ecconomy dead or alive.

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frankyB Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:43 am

Statik, you are the king of numbers

How GM compares to the other car company?

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Deutschland uber alles Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am

Daimler-Benz has informed the White House today who invented the automobile. This was confirmed by the Library of Congress. Indeed Daimler-Benz is the inventor. In 1885 they released a patented 3 wheel motorized car and the 4 wheel version was release the following year. The people who write Obama’s speeches need to do proper research so their president doesn’t look stupid. Remember even Hitler gave great speaches.

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Schmeltz Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:45 am

#21 Charlie H said, “Among other changes, GM needs a new Board of Directors. I’d recommend statik for a place on it.”

I second that motion…All those in favor, say “I”

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Bruce Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:49 am

Yet the same, private jet setting managment team that ran the company into the ground is still in place. Why have the board of directors and stockholders allowed this? Any other company where this happens they are the first on the chopping block.

How many people are thinking we are going to get our taxpayer funded “loan” back now?

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:52 am

#22 ES

The nutshell is the economic downturn exacerbated/accelerated a bad situation.

GM was in the heading to bankruptcy before all of this economic ’schtuff happening…with the end of road likely coming in mid to late 2009. The economic collapse just put them in the fastlane.

As for management compensation…it is really a public hot button thing, executive cuts are not tangible to GM’s bottom line.

GM is losing money on all of its vehicles because of the force of overhead costs increasing on a smaller sales base, which cannot be solved by any action taken by GM.

As for ‘GM specifically taking down Ford’–they have nothing to do with each other…other than they are in the same segment. A better argument would be, is the government by keeping GM and Chrysler alive, taking down Ford? By suppressing natural market actions, a full third of the NA market (about 3 million cars) should have been ‘up for grabs’ to the remaining players if GM and Chrysler would have been left to their respective fates. (Given Ford’s current market share, they should have picked up 500,000 or so of that).

All auto company’s models are under pressure because of loss of volume…they are all now losing money (ok, most of them) which should lead to attrition in the sector, which would then, in turn, cure the root of the problem. The government’s actions have impaired thiis process.

Side note: You fancy yourself concerned about the environment and the economy. Unfortunately, in this sector, you can’t have both. High gas prices are the main driver to environmentally friendly autos, and at the same time high gas prices is one of the biggest deterrent’s to the NA auto business.

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Van Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:54 am

I am a little tired of the “the world will end if GM reorganizes under chapter 11″ mantra. It is a fiction. To continue to produce vehicles that cost 20% more to make than they sell for, is insane. And that is what GM management has been doing for years. Enron style management that simply lied to everybody and brought calamity upon us all. Only when America stops trusting liars will we turn this shipwreck around.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am

#20 Statik

Good for you, if you bought it. Hope springs eternal……..

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JB Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:00 am

The VOLT might not die…BYD could possibly buy it from GM?? Then maybe they could sell it for under $30k.

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RB Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:02 am

“GM also said it expects to receive a “going concern” notice by auditors”
——————————————

A “going concern” notice is a formal statement by the external auditors to the public that they do not see how the company’s finances will allow it to survive another year.

That is, the auditors are telling us all that “if it fails, don’t say we didn’t tell you”. A notice like this is bad, bad, bad, because the auditors have financial information that is not being disclosed to the public and have reviewed in tiny detail everything that is disclosed.

Usually a going-concern notice is followed soon thereafter by a bankruptcy filing. Of course, usually the government is not a part owner of the company.

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Dave B Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:07 am

So my advice to GM is not be like GM. Go the Tesla route…take a risk because you have nothing to lose.

1) Start taking $5,000 fully refundable deposits on the Volt (which of course a depositor would lose if GM seeks Chapter 11 protection)

2) Offer these on the web, regardless of logistics and screw their plan to release it on DC, San Fran, and other select markets. Worry about logistics later.

3) Produce the thing early, even if it looks more like a conversion and you have to hand-build them. Really, it’s about production.

If the future rests on this car, it’s time to show it, to sell it. Get out of this “we’re in trouble, help us government” mentality… and fire Rick.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:07 am

#27 Schmeltz said:

Statik:How much time do you give GM before they file for Chap. 11? Do you think they will make it until even March 31???
—————————–

GM files for bankruptcy the day the gov’t cuts them off and makes them, so it is not like predicting when a ‘real’ company is forced to file…GM for all intents and purposes is nationalized, just without direct oversight.

If I had to wager a guess…I think GM makes it to March 31st, well at least until March 30th, lol. One thing you can always count on politicians for…they act slow, and only act when forced to.

Given the circumstances, and with this report throwing gas on the fire, I think even they realize this tap has to be turned off. The C11 (and even the Chrysler absorbtion) has to be back on the front burner. At least they have something reasonable they can spin as hope for the future with a post gov’t/GM sponsered bankruptcy. (w00h00 GSB).
===============================
#29 frankyb said:

How GM compares to the other car company?
————————–
Chrysler is in the same gov’t life raft as GM, except they get thrown overboard if GM goes C11…they go C7. The only C7 skirmish will be over the fate of Jeep.

Ford is GM…only 9 months ago.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:13 am

#35 n riley said:

Statik (#20): Good for you, if you bought it. Hope springs eternal……..
===========================
All the hideous details/admissions…and turnaround are contained in this thread if you care to go back and relive the moment, lol.

Starts at post #180, continues in #201, #207
http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/23/gm-voltcom-tesla-roadster-electric-car-one-day-test-drive-with-video/#comments

(and eventual, glorious conclusion in this thread @#20)

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Starcast Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am

charlie h Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Starcast says, “Somewere I heard that “ALL the members of the President Obama’s Auto Task Force own a total of 0 american made cars” … If so can you say out of touch?”

The Detroit News carried an article about that. In fact, some do own domestic cars, but not the majority. Some don’t own a car at all.

This, though, isn’t “out of touch,” this is REALITY.

The company I work for is in good shape, at HQ there are lots of college degrees, people are paid well. The number of new domestic cars in the parking lot is miniscule

I understand what you are saying BUT REALITY is about 50% of all cars sold in the US last year were american made by the big 3.

So it still sounds out of touch with reality to me.

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Gary Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:20 am

GM will have a steep hill to climb with numbers like these. America is all about the hate and bitterness now. They will need the best PR firm in the world to turn things around.

I listen to people at my workplace, and they constantly repeat the same old stereotypes such as American cars don’t have good fuel economy (even though the new Malibu 4-cylinder actually gets better mileage than the Accord or Camry 4-cylinder), they rattle a lot (even though a co-worker’s Accord has a horrible entire-car vibration when stopped at a light), and have tons of engine failures (even though a co-worker who has a well-taken care of Prelude with mostly highway miles that burns oil). I know of several new Toyota vehicles that are incapable of keeping rain water out of the passenger compartment when only months old.

Edit: Oh, yeah. Almost forgot this one: American cars can’t “handle” well, either. For example, cars like the Corvette with bigger wheels in the back can’t handle well. Sheesh.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:27 am

#26 Slowdaddy

I guess your name implies it all. Where have you been? GM, or any other auto company, can’t just close dealerships. First of all, they are independently owned and secondly, they operate under state franchise laws that don’t allow them to be shut down at will. There are procedures to follow and that takes time. And MONEY.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:32 am

#30 Deutschland uber alles

Obama’s speech writers were educated in American schools and have been feed the wrong information all their lives. They make statements based on how they will sound to the other uneducated masses in American that pretty damn near believes everything the press and democrats say. If it comes from Obama, it must be gospel. A large majority of Americans are unable to separate fact from lies. I suspect that is not just an American problem, but is widely held world-wide.

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Tall Pete Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:33 am

From Obama speech to Congress :

“As for our auto industry, everyone recognizes that years of bad decision-making and a global recession have pushed our automakers to the brink. We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices. But we are committed to the goal of a re-tooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win. Millions of jobs depend on it. Scores of communities depend on it. And I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it.”

“We should not, and will not, protect them from their own bad practices” sounds like ch.11 to me.

For a while, I thought GM was salvageable. In the light of the impressive demonstration of Statik, I don’t think it is anymore. They need to start facing reality. We all need to.

As for the Volt, I guess it’s the main reason they might be able to emerge from chap11. After all, “we are committed to the goal of a re-tooled, re-imagined auto industry that can compete and win”. It all makes sense if you read between the lines.

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PLJ Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:34 am

To #26 above:

Close down Buick? Are you insane or just totally ignorant. Buick is a cash cow and the bedrock of GM. It was GM’s first brand.

In China Buicks are thought of as being like Toyotas are in the USA.

Buick is the top selling brand in China. Do the Chinese know something Americans don’t? YES. They know a quality car when the see it.

Many Americans buy on emotion, not realizing they are being suckered down the path of destruction by the Japanese.

I would go as far as to say that Buicks are the highest quality mass produced cars on the planet at this time. As good as any Lexus. It’s about time Americans actually GO TO A BUICK DEALERSHIP and LOOK at the cars and drive them. Stop living in the 1980’s when GM actually DID make lousy cars and get your minds and souls into the 21st century. QUIT LIVING IN THE PAST!

Anyone who says the Japanese make superior cars to the Americans is an ignorant fool pretending to know all about cars because their uncle Lou had a 1989 Toyota that went 280,000 miles. Big deal.

GM makes the highest quality and highest tech engines in the world. Period.

So SHUT UP all you Toyota and Honda freaks. Quit supporting the Japanese – a society that has no concept of free enterprise, keeps their borders closed to any real free trade, and has had MASSIVE government support of its industries for decades with the express purpose of driving our industries into the ground.

GO GM

GO VOLT

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Ryan P. Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:36 am

Note to GM Management:
Go rent the DVD “Tucker” –
watch it –
get a clue –
and have electric vehicles ON THE LOTS in 2 months,
THIS fiscal Quarter!

(I was ready to buy it a week after you announced the Volt. How many years ago was it?)

- signed,
#287 on the list

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:37 am

If I sound down on the public here and world-wide it is because I am. I deal with too many people that are just plain dumb when it comes to anything above what is the latest music fad or what is the best movie or the latest TV show. People can be so shallow. And they don’t seem like they want to think anymore. Television and TV news cycles are partially to blame as well as our educational system. But, it all starts at home.

Sorry about the soap box, but by now you “guys” know I carry it in my back pocket and can whip it out in an instant.

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noel park Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:46 am

In June 2009 the 1995 Impala and the 2000 S-10 will be in my driveway, LOL.

Part of me thinks that enough is enough, and just let them go. Then the other part kicks in and says that AIG has been loaned what $40 Billion? And now they are back wanting another $40 Billion? AIG???

So what’s more important, AIG with it’s overpaid financial “wizards”, or US manufacturing corporations who, directly and indirectly, support tens of thousands of US jobs? Tough call.

Anyone who saw John McCain’s remarks on Larry King Live the other night about US military procurement would have to conclude that that entire industry have been essentially wards of the US Government for years. What about that?

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:47 am

#36 JB

“The VOLT might not die…BYD could possibly buy it from GM?? Then maybe they could sell it for under $30k.”
———————

If BYD or some other company were to purchase the Volt, it would be the end of the line for me and the Volt. I got into this “game” because of the Chevrolet Volt, not a BYD Volt, or a Volkswagen Volt. If it is not made by Chevrolet, my desire for it dies. Simple, but true.

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D.. Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:48 am

slightly off topic,

“So SHUT UP all you Toyota and Honda freaks. Quit supporting the Japanese – a society that has no concept of free enterprise, keeps their borders closed to any real free trade, and has had MASSIVE government support of its industries for decades with the express purpose of driving our industries into the ground. ” Share this understanding. This is part of what Charmers Johnson explains in Blowback. I do think though, GM needs to produce a small, no frills EREV. They are missing the boat there. Everyone doesn’t need a 5-passenger boat. Think small, GM. small. NPNS.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:55 am

N Riley

You don’t sound down on the public, you sound down on democrats. You are normally a pretty fair republican.

If it comes from Rush, it must be gospel…

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:56 am

#48 N Riley

If I sound down on the public here and world-wide it is because I am. I deal with too many people that are just plain dumb when it comes to anything above what is the latest music fad or what is the best movie or the latest TV show. People can be so shallow. And they don’t seem like they want to think anymore. Television and TV news cycles are partially to blame as well as our educational system. But, it all starts at home.

Sorry about the soap box, but by now you “guys” know I carry it in my back pocket and can whip it out in an instant.
===================================
Sounds like a excuse to list some TV shows I am current enjoy watching if I ever saw it!

Flight of the Conchords – HBO
Dexter – Showtime
Life on Mars – BBC One…now in rework on ABC
United States of Tara – Showtime
Mythbusters – Discovery Channel
Fringe – FOX
The Mentalist – CBS
SNL -NBC
Howie Do It- NBC (just kidding…it is total crap)

CD collection currently in car:
Kanye West – 808s & Heartbreak
The Lonely Island – Incredibad (don’t ask)
Louis Armstrong – (compilation)

Currently playing on ’shuffle’ at home:
“History Repeating” – Propeller Heads, featuring Shirley Bassey

Watch it now…be cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE_1tCasi_Q

/too far off topic? hehe

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:57 am

#38 Dave B

Sorry, but I don’t think that is a workable plan at all. And Rick is not the real problem. He has done more towards turning around GM than anyone except Bob Lutz. Agreed, it is still a dismal failure, but he did some mighty good things too.

As far as producing the Volt early, that might work if they could produce enough to keep cost down, but they can’t. They would just end up losing more on each car sold. Plus, if it came out and had problems due to being rushed, it would doom the car in the public’s eye.

There just is not any easy answers for GM. They waited much too late to start getting their house in order and fixing their product quality. By the time quality was up the public wasn’t buying GM cars over foreign makes.

GM is locked into only a few “solutions” to their problem and they don’t like any of them. The administration doesn’t like any of them either. Somewhere a decision will be made and GM will start on a road that “may” lead to recovery or to death. Only time will tell. I don’t know enough about Obama’s Auto Task Force to judge their ability to solve GM’s problems. But, if they act in the normal style of government employees and contractors, they will waste tremendous time and money and when they get through the problem will be worse and you will not recognize what is left. Again, time will tell.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

#39 Statik

Again, you have nailed it down very tightly. I agree on all points. It is going to be a very interesting summer. Interesting in a morbid way.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

#40 Statik

Thanks. I went back and read those posts. I had gotten off the blog well before then and never went back to read what came in after I quit. Interesting. I wish you luck, but I think I would have stayed away from GE. At least until they get rid of their chief exec. That guy has done so much to take GE down that I can’t believe he is still there after, what, 8 years. Funny, but not ha ha funny, but he will probably be paid double or triple digit millions when he does leave.

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Tom H Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

It makes political sense to simply give GM $30 billion per year for the indefinite future to keep them afloat. Very bad for America, but great for the unions and the Democratic party.

A more patriotic solution would be to think of the US auto industry in terms of the big 4:

Ford
Toyota
Honda
Nissan

All have major operations in the US, are major employers, and buy lots of US made parts. The shares for all 4 are traded globally, and all of them have both US and Japanese investors.

With GM and Chrysler, let nature take its course. They are both headed for Chapter 7 –break-up of the companies under the supervision of a judge. Identify viable operations and hold a fire sale where Ford or some well funded investment group can buy them if they want them. Liquidate the rest.

This would be very disruptive, but would make Ford super viable for many years to come as they gain 100% share among the “buy-American” partisans. All of the big 4 would need to hire additional workers as they compete and win the former customers of GM and Chrysler. The laid off UAW workers could compete for positions at the big 4, but the ones who get hired will be the ones able to convince the hiring managers that they are not part of the group whose intransigence helped destroy GM and Chyrsler.

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D.. Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

#49 – Sudhuman, Just say no to toxic toys, exploding batteries.;-)

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:18 pm

#42 Gary

Didn’t I say earlier that Americans are very shallow and don’t think anymore. I see and hear the very same junk here at my work. When I try to tell them different, they don’t want to listen. They only want to believe what they have come to ACCEPT as the TRUTH and they are not going to change their minds. Their minds are CLOSED when it comes to this and many other subjects. It has been pounded into our brains for years and now only it is true. American cars are junk, don’t buy American cars, buy only foreign made cars and such crap as that. Yes, GM has a very high hill to climb and they are going to find many disbelievers along the way. Many, many Americans have turned their backs on GM, Ford and Chrysler and will not listen to any reason. Fuel mileage and quality are only two of the lies they believe. Toyota has some of the worse fuel economy vehicles sold in America, but no one really believes that. I know, Toyota does sell some very good economical cars, but they are combined with some very bad mileage vehicles. Take a look yourself.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

#57 N Riley

Statik

Thanks. I went back and read those posts. I had gotten off the blog well before then and never went back to read what came in after I quit. Interesting. I wish you luck, but I think I would have stayed away from GE. At least until they get rid of their chief exec. That guy has done so much to take GE down that I can’t believe he is still there after, what, 8 years. Funny, but not ha ha funny, but he will probably be paid double or triple digit millions when he does leave.
==================

Yeah, I’m still smarting over the GE thing, no clue what I was thinking…I don’t think that one is coming back anytime soon. Fortunately, even at the time I had some misgivings about it, (but still wanted to play the short-term/bank rebound angle), so I underweighted GE to my RY position.

/can never be too careful I suppose

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

hi Tom H #59,

“the big 4″

__________________________

Don’t forget BMW.

Two weeks ago I mentioned that we have our first (real) EV on the block. It’s a VW. Yesterday we acquired our second. And guess what, it’s a BMW. It looks similar to the VW being that it’s white. The VW has a blue plug-and-devil-tail decal on the hood. The BMW has a blue-plug-inside-a-blue-circle decal on the back hatch area. Wouldn’t be surprised to hear that a local is kicking these out.

Santa Barbara has been pushing hard on green for years. Our buses are hybrid and our shuttles are full EV (acid battery). Many people ride electric bicycles and small scooters to work.

BTW: I have never seen a daily pollution report higher than the lowest bar on the graph. Our air is clean.

=D~

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The Grump Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

Statik – I agree – In order to put GM right, Wagner has to be put on a Chapter 11 leash. Wagner is not willing to take on the Big issues affecting GM – Retirement benefits and current UAW benefits that are sinking GM. GM is now a sinking boat. Wagner’s solution – the ocean is too high. Lower the ocean level by bailing it into the boat. When this doesn’t work, have Omaba use the taxpayer’s multi-billion dollar pump to pump out the boat. This wil help for a month or two, while Wagner continues to bail water into the boat – instead of bailing water OUT of the boat (retirees) or actually fixing the hole in the boat (UAW).

Fool us once, shame on Wagner. Fool us twice, shame on Obama, and all of us. UAW promises to negotiate are worth nothing, zero, nada, zilch. UAW agreements are another matter, but I see no hurry on either side to come to an agreement. Not as long as rich Uncle Obama is around to bail them out. Obama has offically become the problem, not the solution. Tough love IS the solution. Union, retiree, GM – you have until June to become profitable, or else it’s Chapter 11 or 7 – your choice. No more TARP, no more bailouts, and the clock is ticking.

Obama’s “take from the future taxpayers and give to, well, whoever” plan is beginning to build opposition, even from democrats. More bailouts might not be viewed favorably by the taxpayers. Last bailout – what did we get? Nothing. Rich Uncle Obama better learn about tough love, fast – or keep playing Rich Uncle Sucker to Wagner and the UAW.

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Hill Arity Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

After the anthropogenic global warming failure – the minions of the bleak decided to try economic crises as their new attack dog. What they are clearly too uneducated to realize is once you lose credibility with one big WHOPPER of a tale – the rest fall on deaf ears. Hello? NO ONE BELIEVES YOU!

Now repeat after us: “crisis politics is a failure… crisis politics is a failure… crisis politics is a failure…”

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MartinG Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

#42, #61

I’m open minded, but sometimes US brands just don’t make a competing product for a certain niche. Maybe in 4 door sedans you can choose. But, I drive a 350z. Does GM or Ford make anything remotely similar to that in performance, style, handling, and price? I can’t think of anything.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

#53 ThombDbhomb

“N Riley

You don’t sound down on the public, you sound down on democrats. You are normally a pretty fair republican.

If it comes from Rush, it must be gospel…”
————————

Actually, I am a registered Democrat. Always have been. And, I don’t listen to Rush. But, I do have a nimble mind and I do think for myself. That puts me “on the outs” with many of my democrat friends and makes for some stiff conversations, at times. I usually lose those “verbal battles” because they can’t get past what they have been told all their lives. They don’t read beyond the front page and the editorial page, they listen to NPR and watch CNN and MSNBC. I watch them also, but for a healthy dose of the other side, I also watch some of Fox News and do a lot of reading of current affairs and historical events and their causes.

Some years I have found myself aligned with republican candidates and at other times, democratic candidates. I generally research a candidates positions and how they voted in the past, if currently serving the public. Then I vote with my mind and heart. Many times I find myself voting for some republicans and democrats on the same ballot. Maybe I am wrong in my method. Please, if you will, correct me so I can do, say and vote the “proper” way. Oh, yeah, just walk in and blindly pull the tab for your “party” regardless of the dumb butt you are voting for. Now, I see.

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Bob McGovern Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

Rick Wagoner is going to ride the GM horse until it dies. If the Volt is ever built, it won’t be by GM. If GM can’t come up with any plan to improve sales and show a profit, all this talk about loans is foolish. Are they going to ask for special funding to pay off the loans? GM started their downward slide long before the economy nose dived but continued with the same failing idea’s. Companies have gone under for many years because of poor management and others were started by modern thinkers. Let GM go and applaud the company that picks up where GM they failed. I am a 2 car GM owner.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

#53 ThombDbhomb

Sorry, but I warned you all that that soap box was in my back pocket all the time. And, of course, I am a little opinionated. To say the least. Didn’t mean to jump to hard on you, ThombDbhomb. But you know what they say: “Those that carry soap boxes in their back pockets tend to use them quite frequently”.

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Laura Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

#50 Noel park

AIG already got $150 Billion dollars. And, yes, they are asking $60 billion more. Kind of puts GM’s problems in perspective…

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

#54 Statik

Now I understand how your mind works and what has been having strange effects on it. But, hey! I watch some of those same shows.

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

#2 beachliving Says: Yup, this is the way it goes.. We all want money we don’t deserve. Guess this explains a lot of what we are into.
————————————————————————————–
I’m definitely not into taking out more loans unless I absolutely have to. That’s especially true if the people loaning me the money are telling me how to run my business.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:48 pm

#58 Zen

Ditto, ditto, ditto for me. Well said. You beat me to it. I was spending too much time on my soap box and didn’t get to respond quick enough. You did it very well. Thanks.

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

#5 Ray Says: Cut 50 % of the upper management (it’s dead weight anyways)… and I don’t mean a golden handshake.. just get rid of them… and start giving buyers of GM vehicles a deal…
————————————————————————————–
Yeah, it looks like the time is ripe for this. Rolling some heads at the top will certainly shake things up at GM. I doubt Wagoner would like to be that hatchet-man, so his days are probably numbered. GM’s board should bring in someone from the outside as CEO, not someone who’s been at GM for 40 years…

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noel park Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

#42 Gary:

“America is all about the hate and bitterness now.”

Alas, too true. How sad. You can see it right here every day.

#64 The Grump:

The money which was advanced to GM and Chrysler earlier, and the so-called “viability study” process leading up to the possible second “tranche” were all arranged during the Presidency of Mr. George W. Bush. Remember him?

As near as I can tell, Presidnet Obama has not agreed to anything additional yet, except to convene this “task force” to look for a way forward. In office one month, and the whole thing is already his fault. Revisionist history is alive and well. See my response to Gary at #42 above.

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noel park Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

#51 N Riley:

Now there I have to put in with you. BYD Volt? LOL.

Not in my lifetime brother.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

Obama’s auto team has at least one member who has experience handling problems like what they are faced with now. I don’t think it is on the scale of GM’s, but it is at least something. Let’s hope for the best and since it is closed door meetings, we won’t know until it occurs, either good or bad. But, we can hope. Since hope springs eternal. i have heard that somewhere. Must have been from Statik. He is such a nice, hopeful guy. (Not really picking on you, Statik. Just trying to lighten up some from my soap box comments.)

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

#14 Rashiid Amul Says: The problem is the perception that Americans make junk… The perception, I think, is so prevalent, how can GM make up the lost sales and convince people their cars are good? idk. I just don’t know.
————————————————————————————–
I would never have considered buying an American car if it weren’t for the Volt. I’ve been burned too many times.

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noel park Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

#74 Dave G:

Yeah, I just heard this AM coming in that the Board of the Swiss bank (UBS? – some such alphabet name) had dumped their second CEO in 2 years behind the current secrecy/tax evasion scandal, and a disastrous (for them) financial performance last year. You tell me which was the more important, LOL.

So somebody has the guts to do what needs to be done.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

#75 Noel Park

“As near as I can tell, Presidnet Obama has not agreed to anything additional yet, except to convene this “task force” to look for a way forward. In office one month, and the whole thing is already his fault. Revisionist history is alive and well. See my response to Gary at #42 above.”
—————————–

It is a shame. And he is such a nice guy. I agree about the one month in office, for sure. Of course, from what I hear, he and George W. were doing a lot of talking and so were his transition team. So, even though I want to give him as much time as possible for it to become “his problem”, I think he was involved earlier than January 20th. But, yeah, he has some more time to get it right. We wish him all the luck in the world. I really, really do want to see him succeed in making America strong again. I don’t agree with many of his positions on a wide range of matters, but I didn’t agree with a lot of what the last several presidents have done. But, they are not perfect and they are shaped by their daily lives just like the rest of us.

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:07 pm

#25 statik Says: I think internally they acquiesced themselves to C11.
————————————————————————————–
Do you think GM will survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy? How many people will buy cars from a bankrupt company? If you think there is a successful C11 scenario, how much more money would they need to borrow from U.S. taxpayers?

Not rhetorical questions – I’m actually interested in your opinion.

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DonC Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

#1 Rashiid says “If they lost 30.9 Billion dollars last year, how does 2009 look any better from the economy perspective?”

#33 statik says “GM is losing money on all of its vehicles because of the force of overhead costs increasing on a smaller sales base, which cannot be solved by any action taken by GM.”

Rashiid’s question and statik’s wonderfully concise explanation for GM’s situation are related. GM is so large that unless the number of cars go up it can’t make any money.

The questions, and really the only significant questions, become: (1) what is the run rate for auto sales; and (2) over what period.

No one can predict the near term run rate. If they had a crystal ball they could have all the money in the world from sports betting. But if you look to 2011 or 2012 the prediction becomes much easier. There are estimated to be about 250M cars in the US. If the life of a car is 15 years, that means all car companies would have to sell about 16.6M vehicles a year. To see how bad things are currently, at the current run rate of 9M cars/annum the average American would keep their car for almost 28 years. (If you don’t like these numbers you can use your own, the result won’t change much).

In essence, and to answer Rashiid’s question, no car company can be profitable at run rates so low they cannot be sustained, but in the longer term the seeds of the recovery for the auto industry are being sown by the unsustainable low current levels of sales.

As a consequence, my guess is that the Obama Administration will properly ignore current conditions when deciding the question of viability and will decide whether GM can be structured to remain profitable using a benchmark of something around new vehicle sales of 15M – 16M, or maybe as low as 14M, per year.

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carcus1 Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

I’d prefer sudden death over prolonged terminal illness , anyday. Pull the plug.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

#81 Dave G said:

statik Says: I think internally they acquiesced themselves to C11.
————————————————————————————–
Do you think GM will survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy? How many people will buy cars from a bankrupt company? If you think there is a successful C11 scenario, how much more money would they need to borrow from U.S. taxpayers?

Not rhetorical questions – I’m actually interested in your opinion.
=========================
I don’t think there is any ’survive or not surivie’ a C11 scenario. The gov’t has signaled pretty clearly that they are not going to let the sector implode. The question is still, will they keep them on perpetual life support…or start fresh?

As to the age old question of, “Will people buy cars from a bankrupt company?” I think most of them have already left the ship, and regardless of that…it doesn’t really matter if ‘half of the half’ of the customers they still have leave, anddon’t buy from a bankrupt company. I would think in a restructure like this GM comes out about a quarter of the size it once was (and Chrysler goes the way of the dodo bird). The main thing is (and what C11 should give them a shot at doing) that they can sell these fewer cars at a profit.

I figure a government sponsored bankruptcy goes 90-120 days…money does not seem to be a object here. As long as GM has the gov’t at their back, people will forget about it sooner or later.

Now the big question, “How much money?” This is tricky, because it is really at the government’s discretion and is largely a unprecedented event. They can try to do it on the cheap, and maybe get away with only spending somwhere in the 20s of billion…but GM would be worse for wear and a ‘return’ on their money would be in doubt (it would also take them probably 12-18 months to get everything sorted out).

I figure a good number to ensure the process only takes a few months, and more importantly lets them retain the more vital parts of their infrastructure, while allowing them some ’seed money’ to bring about a new generation of GM culture (while cutting out the old) would be in the 50 billion-ish range.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

GM needs the Cruze released by April. The Camaro by July. And the Volt by November (09′). I don’t see another way to get people into the showrooms.

Give the people what they want (and soon) or there will be nothing left but road runner dust from the new 2010 hybrids being released by multiple manufacturers.

http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Camaros%20050.jpg

=D~

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Rashiid Amul Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

#67 N Riley says,
Actually, I am a registered Democrat.

———-
Oh no. Not one of those! I had you pegged as a Republican.
Actually, I am a registered Republican and I am considering a change to Independent. Like you, I vote with my mind and heart and not the party. My vote goes this way: Who is the best candidate for the job.
I truly dislike right wingers as much as left wingers. I search for the moderate when I vote.

I also listen to NPR every day and read cnn.com every day.
It is very rare when I skip GM-VOLT.com for a day.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

Blah Blah Blah….
Yak Yak Yak…

I’ll buy it even if GM goes Chap whatever. I’ll at least have the Volt.
GM needs to go “Back to Basics”. Remember KISS. Quit putting all that fancy shlt on their cars. Start over with the Volt…

Just build my Volt Dangit!!!

No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!

Back to Basics Boys!

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

/hopefully this doesn’t get flagged as in moderation again, not sure what is tripping it

#82 DonC

Re: Run rate for the future.
————————
I think you are right, car sales have to return to a more normalized 16 million..at some point. I think we are all pretty much pegging 2009 to be in the 8-9 million range…I don’t see that changing.

The economics of today probably will leave a short term imprint on the American car buyer’s pyshe for a couple years after the downturn is over. (ala the trend away from SUV/large sedans, even after gas stabilized…we would need several years of cheap gas to approach historical numbers outside of a recession).

I think over the next several years, you are probably going to see the American car buying public stretching out the livespan of their current vehicles by a couple years, but more importantly, we may see a change in the cars per household demographic. ie) Junior doesn’t get his own car, stay at home mom doesn’t get her own ‘tooting’ around vehicle, dad doesn’t have a sports car tucked into the garage, or a ’spare truck’ to pull the family trailer.

I’d wager if (BIG IF) the US pulls out of the recession by years end, the volume for 2010 will still only be around 10-11 mil, and maybe goes up 1 to 1.5 per year after that.

Even on the most optimistic of outlooks, that is a lot of checks the gov’t has to write to GM (Ford & Chrysler) just to get them to a point in time where the average sales have returned to a historical norm (which is no guarantee they are still not losing money)…the ‘Big 2.451′ would also find themselves saddled with a couple hundred billion of gov’t notes on them.

I’m still of the opinion it is easier/more reasonable to solve the NA volume problem by cutting a player out completely (Chrysler) and cutting the other two down by 50+ percent (Ford/GM). That way you don’t need it back to 14-16 million to be able to sustain itself…you are talking more like 11 million.

/just my opinion though

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Brian Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

I concur with #83.

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BarryW Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

#87

“No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!”

They already make a vehicle with those specs – its called a bicycle.

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

#88 DonC

I made up a response/discussion to your topic…but it has been flagged for moderation for some reason, hopefully Lyle will unlocked it and you can check it out.

/should be right before this post

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Darius Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

That is horrible. For me sad thing is that decision on Volt development was undertaken only in such horrible circumstances.

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Ray Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

I see my last comment went to moderation.. but here it is…

I took a drive to 4 dealerships this morning to see how their sales were going… At a Ponitac / GMC dealer…. there were a couple of people looking at the trucks..none on the car side. At the Honda dealer… there were 15 people in the showroom … all looking at the hybrid line up (and the Civic of course).. Toyota… not quite as many people as Honda but again…looking at hybrids.. Last stop…Ford Dealership… Escape hybrid … sold out and a 6 week waiting list for more… of the 6 people there (not the sales guys). lots of questions for the Fusion hybrid.. and the Focus is stll one of their top sellers for the smaller budgets…
Once the dust settles with GM and Chrysler… I suspect that Ford (at least here in Central Alberta, Canada) is going to do just fine. And I have put my name on the list for a 2010 Fusion Hybrid…Yes I have deposit in hand but was told… wait till the Fusion Hybrid gets here…. after all my name is on their (I am going to buy one) list
GM…. You need the High Miler hybrids out right now if not yesterday.

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carcus1 Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

You should see it from Engineer Wagoner’s perspective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

My second choice if the Volt doesn’t make it is the Ford Focus BEV.

http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/14/gm-voltcom-ford-focus-bev-test-drive/

Range is more than I care for, 100mpc, but it’s a plus.

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DG Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

Ouch

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Gary Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

64 MartinG: I’m open minded, but sometimes US brands just don’t make a competing product for a certain niche. Maybe in 4 door sedans you can choose. But, I drive a 350z. Does GM or Ford make anything remotely similar to that in performance, style, handling, and price? I can’t think of anything.

Does Toyota? Does Honda?

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

#84 Rashiid Amul

I must admit, after thinking about my voting record lately, I have tended to vote more for republicans than democrats. I would call myself more of an independent than anything else. I just don’t want to go to the trouble to register. With my voting record, I get calls and mailings from all of the “parties” with them acting as though I was a big supporter when in fact I split my vote quite often. Getting all those phone calls and mailings is one bad side effect of voting like I do. But, I don’t care a much about party label as I do the person. I don’t generally think very highly of ANY politician and am of the opinion that they are out for themselves and their close allies. I do not trust any politician. Not as far as I could throw a Chevy Volt. If there was one available to be thrown, which there isn’t.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

#85 CaptJackSparrow

That is quite a list of no this and no that. Can’t say I blame you on some of them.

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Gary Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

83 Dave K: GM needs the Cruze released by April. The Camaro by July. And the Volt by November (09′). I don’t see another way to get people into the showrooms.

As you know, GM did have plans to bring world-class competitive cars. Unfortunately, this whole subprime mortgage and economic meltdown came before these cars hit the market and started getting people saying even more good things about GM’s new product.

As for all the people with the silly LJGTVWOTR (or whatever it is) acronym… realistically, something as sophisticated as a car can’t be designed, engineered, and built in one year. Not without it being a piece of junk that would be laughed at by the public.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:31 pm

#91 Ray

Yes, I agree about Ford. I think Ford is going to come out of all this mess very strong and will be a leader in many vehicle sales. They are on the right track and are producing some mighty fine vehicles. The first car I ever bought was a 1956 Ford car in 1964. It was the last Ford car I ever bought. I keep going back and looking, but until the last few years was turned off by what I saw. I have always liked their trucks, but preferred Chevrolet trucks. The way things are going, I suspect there will be a new Ford hybrid in my drive way in a year or two. I am sticking just where I am for the time being and don’t need to make a vehicle purchase. But, in a couple of years, at most, I will be looking very hard at what is available. If GM is still here, I will give them a good look, then I will look at Ford. I want to stay with one of them, if possible. I know, I own a 2009 Honda Accord EX-L that I love. But, my wife will need to replace her Honda Odyssey. I do want to get back to purchasing all American vehicles. Sometimes I feel sort of un-American when I drive my Accord.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:36 pm

Well, I did buy a 1966 Ford Mustang in the early 90’s and kept it for a year or so before selling it. I had forgotten about that one. It was not really bought for an everyday drive car. I would like to find myself a really good Mustang or Camaro convertible. But, I may be just day dreaming.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

@Gary 98
“realistically, something as sophisticated as a car can’t be designed, engineered, and built in one year. Not without it being a piece of junk that would be laughed at by the public.”

Realistically BMW did it at 1.5 years for the Mini-E……Nobody laughed
Realistically Ford Focus BEV took 1.5 years…..Everyone praised.

Realistically DIY’rs have been doing it in a few months so realistically there’s no reason why any of the big auto guru’s couldn’t just mfgr a “Shell” of one of their smaller cars and engineer an electric drive system.
Realistically there’s no reason why GM couldn’t just outright contract with “Hybrid Technologies” to do it for them.

So realistically they didn’t really give a shlt till shlt hit the fan, now it’s too phukin late.

@Gary 95
“Does Toyota? Does Honda?”

Toyoda is not in that market.
Honda has/had the S2000. Which IMHO is better.
However, the new Camaro is TIGHTTTTTT!!!

OK rant done, going to the nudie bar for chicken wings and an MGD…….

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

@ N Riley 97
“That is quite a list of no this and no that. Can’t say I blame you on some of them.”

I keep my cars for at least 10 years and each component I mention fails at least twice before that 10 years hits. So as long as they’re not present, they can’t fail on me and it won’t cost me any $$$ to fix.

The OnStar issue is just crap to use juice and if/when they decide to upgrade like last time, there’s a good chance it wouldn’t be upgradable just like last time. Also, what do you do if the economy sinks OnStar? You’ll have garbage toting along with you sucking juice AND it can break to.

OK, now off to my lunch place of “Cheers….”

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wrigley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:44 pm

who picks up jeep in Ch 7?

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

#65 N Riley

If you look at your # 44, it seems directed more towards democrats:
————-
Obama’s speech writers were educated in American schools and have been feed the wrong information all their lives. They make statements based on how they will sound to the other uneducated masses in American that pretty damn near believes everything the press and democrats say. If it comes from Obama, it must be gospel. A large majority of Americans are unable to separate fact from lies. I suspect that is not just an American problem, but is widely held world-wide.
————-
I don’t detect a lot of anger directed towards republicans in your # 44. If you are mad at “people,” you seem to single out democrats. Because I pointed that out does not make me a democrat or a republican.

Since you asked, the proper way to do, say and vote would be to do it fairly and intelligently.

p.s., Don’t hate me because I am logical

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:50 pm

#103 Wrigley

Hopefully GM could pick up Jeep. But, realistically, Ford would better suited. I just hope no foreign owned auto company does because it will sink Jeep, I believe.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

#104 ThombDbhomb

I agree my comment was directed more towards democrats. They are presently in power and doing and saying stupid things. I have criticized republicans on previous post and will do so again in the future, maybe even today. I criticized George W Bush at times as well as defended him at times. I have also defended Obama on this blog site as well as criticized him. I am an equal opportunity criticizer when it comes to politicians. The republicans were handed a golden opportunity in 1994 and later when they won majority in the senate. When Bush II was elected, they totally lost all resemblance to the republican party of yesteryear. Same for the democrats in the 1970’s. I used to have respect for the democrats and republican parties, but I lost most of it over the last few decades of terrible party rule for the sake of the party and to hell with the country type of politics. A pox on them all, in my opinion.

Don’t just pick out one comment of mine and try to place me in a neat hole. I don’t fit into most holes. I am neither round nor square. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to whip out that soap box again.

Edited: Nothing wrong with being logical. I consider myself as being a logical person. I am a programmer, application designer, etc, etc. If you are not logical doing this type of work you don’t last very long. I am also very opinionated. I said that before, didn’t I. Did I say that I carry my soap box in my back pocket? (Yeah, I know. I just wanted to say it again.)

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Don Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

They should really not burn cash. I know it is cold in Michigan in the winter, but there are better ways of heating. If they did not burn cash, they might have better results.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

#106 N Riley
You are usually pretty fair, as I said in my #52. I’ve been watching you (and taking notes) for a long time. I like what you say almost all the time. Sometimes your bias shows. Sometimes I point that out. I feel like we are kinda like friends. Friends can call out friends on things and still respect each other.

I’m not trying to place you in a neat hole. You’ll dig your own messy one

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

A government sponsored bankruptcy would be the best solution, given this burn rate. No amount of equity can cover bloated union and dealership costs.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:17 pm

#108 ThombDbhomb

Agreed. We all do some digging at times. Problem is can we dig our way back out. GM is presently trying to do that and Obama is trying not to dig so deep that he can’t dig himself (and the country) back out. I don’t envy either of them.

But, yes, we can be friends and I never mind someone “calling me out” for something I say. If I say something that upsets someone, I would like for them to let me know about it. I like to keep score and, hey, you can’t keep score if you don’t know that you made a strike. (I am joking.)

Edited: I must admit that I don’t always try to be fair. I just call it the way I see it and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes I do speak when I should keep my mouth shut. Feel free to let me know when I do that. Meet me on an equal basis and we will always get along just fine. I stopped judging people when I found other people judging me. I like people. I just don’t like politicians. And they are NOT people. Not like the rest of us. Watch them and learn.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

#110 N Riley

Agreed

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

blogs.moneycentral.msn.com says
——————
Rising concerns over increased regulation from the Obama White House have gun buffs stocking up. This is boosting the fortunes of gun makes Smith & Wesson and Ruger.
——————-

By his very presence, Obama is stimulating the economy already!

Gobama! Gobama! Gobama!

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

#109 Jason M. Hendler

You, I and quite a few others are beginning to believe that is the best solution. Don’t look for it though. I don’t want to sound anti-UAW here, but too many union jobs would be affected for Obama to do that. But, he may have no other choice soon or later. I would prefer GM dig their way out of this soon and relieve the taxpayers of the cost, but that ain’t gonna happen either.

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D.. Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:34 pm

#30 -”Daimler-Benz has informed the White House today who invented the automobile. This was confirmed by the Library of Congress. Indeed Daimler-Benz is the inventor. In 1885 they released a patented 3 wheel motorized car and the 4 wheel version was release the following year. The people who write Obama’s speeches need to do proper research so their president doesn’t look stupid. Remember even Hitler gave great speaches.”

kinda weird, or is it just me? .Deutschland showing pride of authorship for the invention doing us all in- Get back to us when you’ve got something ‘lectric. thanks

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

One good thing that has been accomplished is that GM has apparently gotten a lot of vehicles stored on lots to be shipped when sales pickup again. The cost of these vehicles have already been accounted for in the last quarter, I assume. When, and if, (no when, definitely) auto sales start to pick up, GM will make some good sales if they are able to offer some real good deals. I know they are probably costing them something to just sit there, but I don’t know how much.

I would like to suggest to all of us to go out an purchase a new GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicle if at all possible. If you have been holding off, now is the time to start a movement toward auto recovery. Talk to your friends and neighbors about doing the same. Try to talk more positive about the economy and the auto industry. Let us keep the doom and gloom to ourselves as much as possible. Let start now trying to change one person’s attitude at a time and see what effect we cah have on the problems we face. Just think what would happen if you could change two or three peoples impressions and get them to think and speak more positive on the economy. We might even turn things around. One small step for mankind, one giant leap for the economy.

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TALLPALL Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

*** 642 days to go ***

Fingers crissed they make it. Or at least the Volt makes it……

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:56 pm

Consumer Reports: 10 best cars of 2009

Best overall: Lexus LS460
Small sedan: Hyundai Elantra SE
Mid-size SUV: Toyota Highlander
Pick-up Truck: Chevrolet Avalanche
Family Sedan: Honda Accord
Upscale Sedan: Infiniti G37
Fun to Drive: Mazda MX-5 Miata
Small SUV: Toyota Rav4
Minivan: Toyota Sienna
Green Car: Toyota Prius

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Donald Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 4:57 pm

‘Somewere I heard that “ALL the members of the President Obama’s Auto Task Force own a total of 0 american made cars”’

Ummm some own Volvos some Mazdas, and FORD (an American company last time I checked) owns them, also how many foreign auto makers assembly their cars here, practiacally all of them, and how many GM and Fords are made over seas so out with that wasteful argument

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

#84 Rashiid Amul Says: Actually, I am a registered Republican and I am considering a change to Independent. Like you, I vote with my mind and heart and not the party.
————————————————————————————–
The area where I live is so heavily Republican that for most local elections, Democrats don’t even bother offering up a candidate, so all the action is in the Republican primary. If I want to have any meaningful vote at the local level, I have to be a registered Republican.

But I’m actually an independent voter. For general elections, I try to split my votes between parties for every ballot I cast.

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

Consumer Reports, 10 best cars

Best overall: Lexus LS460
Small sedan: Hyundai Elantra SE
Mid-size SUV: Toyota Highlander
Pick-up Truck: Chevrolet Avalanche
Family Sedan: Honda Accord
Upscale Sedan: Infiniti G37
Fun to Drive: Mazda MX-5 Miata
Small SUV: Toyota Rav4
Minivan: Toyota Sienna
Green Car: Toyota Prius

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Dave G Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:11 pm

This moderation is working pretty wierd today.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

#117 Donald

Both Ford and GM build cars in Europe and Asia (and in other areas). Under their own brand names and under other names (like Opel for GM). They are both global companies, more so for GM than for Ford. They both have a great history with GM’s being tarnished quite a bit lately.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

#120 Dave G

“This moderation is working pretty wierd today.”
——————-

Yes, I am surprised yours above got through since it doesn’t seem to follow rhym or reason. One of mine got stopped for several minutes. I read it through several times and did not find anything wrong with what I said. It was the comment about Ford coming out of this mess stronger. It was a positive comment. Maybe that is what got me caught. But, hey, I do make some positive comments every once in a while.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

OK, I am about ready to stick a fork in this post and get it done for the day. I really had a good time today, guys. Not always on subject, but it was an interesting day. Let’s all be prepared for tomorrow’s post. I bet Lyle has a real hum-dinger for us. How about it, Lyle?

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solo2500nt Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

To 65/67 N Riley.

You actually research candidates before voting for them? You sometimes vote democratic and sometimes vote republican?

You sir, are the most dangerous animal in american politics. You are unpredictable, 2 faced, and a traitor to the cause. How dare you.

Nobody can depend on you, how can you look your family, co-workers, friends in the eye?

Welcome to the free thinkers club. There are more of us than you think. We are persecuted on both sides but stand strong for we hold the key to every election at the state and federal level. Unfortunately, both sides use us like a 5 dollar street walker.

Ok off the subject, lets see, GM is nearly out of cash. The problem I see is if GM and Chrysler, or even Ford fail, no american counterparts would be able to take their place. In order to build an auto company you need to start in a country with little regulation and a total lack of lawyers. Henry Ford never NEVER would have gotten off the ground in the 21’st century the way he did in the 20′th. Too much government red tape. Hell if you want to run for a state wide office in this country you need a bucket load of money for lawyers JUST to get you through the regulatory processes set up by the entrenched parties.

I am not in favor of government bailouts, but the government helped fuel this crisis because of their total lack of leadership in the past 30 years.

Deregulation of the BANKING and financial industries? Ummm, thats where the MONEY is. You watch those industries like a hawk or pay the price, like we are now.

So by deregulating the financial institutions, and over regulating core manufacturing industries, we find ourselves on the verge of being a bankrupt 3rd world nation all in the name of free trade.

Free trade? not with 3rd world countries run by dictatorships. Countries that trade their slave labor for western technology. Every nation with a clue protects their key industries, even if it means Joe/Jane actually have to pay market prices for their key goods and services.

Ok.. I’m off my soap box.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

Consumer Reports, 10 best cars – Thanks Dave G.

8 of the 10 are made by a Japanese company. We love Japanese vehicles in this country. Just had to say it again. Great vehicles, one and all. Take a real good look GM and Ford. At least one GM made the list. But, being a subscriber to CR, I know from first hand experience that they are just a tad bit biased. Their decisions are based on their subscribers and guess what type of vehicles their subscribers purchase. You got it!

Edited: Consumer Reports is just one example of where opinions are made and re-fortified by the repetition of those ideas month after month. After reading CR for a couple years, a subscriber is left with the complete opinion that American auto companies only make pieces of junk and the Japanese are the only country to put all your purchase decisions into. Read most “car magazines” and you get a whole different picture. But, after saying all that, American auto companies could still learn a lot from the Japanese companies. They may have to sooner or later because they might get owned by one.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

#124 solo2500nt

You had me going there for a second. Enjoyed it. I agree about the deregulation. While the republicans were in power they deregulated the banking and finance communities and while the democrats were in power they tied the manufacturing and other industries hand and feet. Both were responding to their supporters and both were damned wrong to do what they did. And both did lead up to our current sad state of affairs. Problem is neither has learned their lessons and now we are going to pay some more through higher taxes, higher fees, higher cost of products and stiffer regulations that are going to make many, many small to mid-sized business fail. All in the name of politics. Do it to the other party while you are in power. And just hope they can’t ever respond.

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N Riley Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

OK, here goes the fork I am done. See ya………..

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:07 pm

4Q

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:09 pm

hi Gary #98,

“…a car can’t be designed, engineered, and built in one year. Not without it being a piece of junk that would be laughed at by the public.”

___________________________

GM has been working on the Volt since 07′. Two shifts, 5 and 6 days a week, on a priority basis. This equals about 3 or 4 years of “normal” development time. Come out with basic (reliable) models for now. Sell 20,000 of each vehicle to enthusiasts. Show that you may be able to repay the loans. Continue from there. I don’t see another way back to the divers flag, the oxygen tank is running low.

This is not the time for GM to be saying, “we can’t”.

http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20035.jpg

=D~

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SteveK Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:15 pm

#115

I’ve always believed that recessions end partly because people just get sick of being gloomy at some point, and say—what the hell, I’ve got a job, I’m going to buy something. From there it spirals up instead of down. This situation seems different (worse) but I expect the same mechanism may play out. The problem is that it just has to happen of it’s own accord. Of course the depression went on much longer—hopefully we are not really living in the world of 1930 and the worlds leaders can do better this time out.

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DonC Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

#86 statik says “think over the next several years, you are probably going to see the American car buying public stretching out the livespan of their current vehicles by a couple years, but more importantly, we may see a change in the cars per household demographic.”

I have doubts that will happen. In Canada consumers are different. Here memories are short. Also we have an entire generation who have never experienced much of a recession. They just don’t get it, even now. Can’t see them changing after a recovery. That’s not altogether a bad thing.

The other issue is that the longer it takes to return to more normal buying behaviors the more pent up demand you have to satisfy when things do return to normal. If the underlying run rate is 16M and you have two years of 9M and 11M, then in year three you could be looking at a 25M – 30M year. IOW you can go from famine to feast in a hurry, particularly with all the liquidity the Fed has injected with its trillion or so new programs.

If you have this perspective, and you have the cash to get to the other side, it’s not a bad investment to wait. This is why all the hand wringing about taxpayer losses seems somewhat overblown. In the meantime we’ll see a period where keeping the supply chain operating is a relatively cheap method of not increasing the unemployment rate.

BTW I’m still liking your explanation of why GM isn’t going to turning a profit anytime soon.

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Dan Petit Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:36 pm

As far as the diagnostic wear patterns for the Buick Division of GM, I can tell you that down through the last 7 years of scanning (6,800 scans), that Buick has the **very best** reliability of the GM product lines. I just recommended today that a used vehicle buyer consider only a Buick for her son.
On the original story topic, no set of re-adjustments are pretty. Iit is just that they now need to be out in the open. However. as unpalatable that the process is for not only GM and thousands of other firms, this is all actually part of our Green Evolution, it seems to me.
Down through the last century, possibly part of the problem where all OEM’s were not as easily persuaded to ditch the guzzlers, might be the same reason why there is so much “behind the scenes intimidation” of anyone who is likely to reduce the amount of fossil fuels that those producers must (due to their fiduciary duties) force the various “consuming mechanisms” to keep the guzzling going.
What I am saying here is that if you want your fossil fuel company to survive, you have to unreasonably-pressure everyone necessary to do it. When talking to various “key” decision-makers (corporate management as well as public servants) who can, through wise decision-making, easily help reduce the public’s consumption of, say, gasoline or natural gas, my ***VERY***clear impressions when they suddenly and vehemently “backpedal” and warn me that “there are very powerful people out there” [YOU'D BETTER BACK OFF!!!], ……..well, my conclusion is that the fossil-fuels *interests* are “getting to them” (as matter-of-factly advised to me by one highly respected Texas State legislator). .
So, my opinion here leans to the idea that perhaps upper management for our auto industries and utility industries may be, even today, actively intimidated and threatened ( and also historically down through the entire last 105 years). So let us not immediately come to adverse conclusions as to why GM or any other OEM had not sooner switched over to plug ins.
It is my understanding that in 1904, there was a plug-in battery powered vehicle called the “Runabout”.
I think that finally the economic environment and the physical environments have forced these green adjustments upon us no matter how much intimidation and threat comes forward to any of us. So, yes, it looks messy, but the end result of all these federal investments is a cleaner World and we should claim Worldwide carbon credits for all of it. We just now have the proper leadership in America to do it, thank God.
Dan Petit Austin Tx.

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Mark Z Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

Rent an Impala and enjoy the quiet, cushy comfort that compares with Cadillac CTS. I request an Impala every time I rent. Cadillac owners who ride with me are impressed. If the VOLT has this level of comfort and ride, then GM will have redefined the electric car.

Don’t worry about the money GM has lost. Listen to Grandpa George in the movie, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory: “There’s plenty of money out there. They print more every day.”

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0367594/quotes

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Red HHR Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

There will be grass growing in the parking lots this summer…

Red HHR ( I )

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 7:02 pm

#109 Jason M Hendler said:

A government sponsored bankruptcy would be the best solution, given this burn rate. No amount of equity can cover bloated union and dealership costs.
=====================
Welcome to the GSB club!

Much like ThombDbhomb in #108, I too have been…watching your behaviors and taking note…and I have to say, I appove, heeh.

(=

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

#110 N Riley said:

…I just call it the way I see it and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes I do speak when I should keep my mouth shut. Feel free to let me know when I do that. Meet me on an equal basis and we will always get along just fine.
—————–

Sounds a lot like my motto. Have a good evening Riley…see you in the morning.
=======================
#131 Don C

You could be right, I don’t think there is any one right projection we could make here about the SAAR going out more than a couple years. We could have pent up demand like you suggest after a couple big down years. Again, the likely scenarios are hard to see because of the broader uncertain landscape.

If we have the recession coming to a end this year and a aggressive turnaround, you case is more likely than mine.

If we have a drawn out, multi-year recession, followed by a slow recovery process, we are assuredly going to see several depressed years…and maybe a decade to retest the historical norms.

It is all good fun to discuss though, (=
======================
DonC said, “BTW I’m still liking your explanation of why GM isn’t going to turning a profit anytime soon.”

–Thanks, I think it makes sense…the fundamentals/structure just aren’t there to be profitable ‘as is’

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 7:22 pm

Oh the drama…

http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt%2002-26.jpg

=D~

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statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

One more item:

GM put out a press release on their ‘closed-door’ Washington meeting:
————
GM Statement Regarding Meeting with Presidential Task Force on Autos
(Attributable to Greg Martin, Director, Policy and Washington Communications)

Today’s meeting with the Presidential Task Force on Autos was just the beginning of the hard work ahead for GM and the President’s team. We found a genuine willingness among the Task Force to understand our business, industry challenges, and GM’s restructuring plan. We look forward to working closely with the Task Force as we continue our efforts to transform GM.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=52473
====================
====================

As always, GM continues its mastery of both putting out a press release…and saying nothing. (No clue about what they were talking about…neither side is throwing out bread crumbs to follow either).

Side Note: I find it interesting GM has a position entitled, “Director, Policy and Washington Communications”

/this Greg Martin fellow…he has the safest job in all of GM

(Quote)
statik Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

#137 Dave K said:

Oh the drama…
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt%2002-26.jpg
=D~

============================
I see your auto show picture of the Volt…and raise you mine:

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2039/volt2.jpg

/mad skillz

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 10:01 pm

#64 MartinG Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
#42, #61

I’m open minded, but sometimes US brands just don’t make a competing product for a certain niche. Maybe in 4 door sedans you can choose. But, I drive a 350z. Does GM or Ford make anything remotely similar to that in performance, style, handling, and price? I can’t think of anything.

==============

How about a Pontiac G8 GT (or GXP for more power), or a Pontiac G6 GXP hardtop convertable, or a Camaro, or a Mustang Cobra? I have a Pontiac Trans Am, 305HP, too bad they dont make them anymore.

(Quote)
kdawg Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 11:47 pm

Received this in the mail today. Not relevant on this thread, but this topic has been brought up on a lot of other threads.
=========
GM Brands Score Well in J.D. Power Customer Service Index Study

J.D. Power and Associates released its Customer Service Index (CSI) Study results yesterday and four GM brands are among the top 10 and all GM brands were above average. CSI examines satisfaction among vehicle owners who visit a service department for maintenance or repair work.

Here’s how the GM brands rank in the CSI:

2. Cadillac
6. Hummer
8. Buick
9. Saturn
15. Saab
16. GMC
18. Pontiac
19. Chevrolet
With the exception of GM, most high-volume brands (Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan, etc.) continue to perform below industry average.

The CSI rankings are based on surveys of more than 106,000 customers and evaluate dealer performance during the first three years of ownership, which typically covers the warranty period. The 1,000 point scale is based on five measures: service quality, service initiation, service advisor, service facility and vehicle pickup.

(Quote)
The Grump Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Sorry Gary #98 and Dave K #129 – I don’t believe GM was serious about a high mileage car – not while Yukons and Surburbans were selling for really large profits. I’ve said it before – I was in charge of GM, I would have had a Prius torn apart, reverse engineered, and a slightly different but better version of the Prius badged for GM and in the showrooms ASAP.

Only when their big dinosaurs stopped selling did GM begin to realize that, yes – GM might die without their SUV cash cows. Wagner still seems to have his head in the sand. GM needs Chapter 11, so Wagner can be given the important job of changing air fresheners in the bathrooms. Anything except making decisions about GM’s future – it’s not Wagner’s strong suit.

Get rid of Wagner, null the UAW and retiree contracts, and start from scratch. It’s time to stop the parade of never-ending bailouts before it goes too far.

(Quote)
banjoez Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 10:11 am

As much as I wanted a Volt, (and I still think the idea is the best out there)….I don’t see it happening with the current GM. It will need to be picked up by someone else or done by a “reformulated” GM after C11 with major government support. It will be too expensive for the average Joe to buy and will not save GM financially. Unfortunately, GM has little else in the pipeline for their bread and butter car(s). The Cruz is a day late and a dollar short, a last ditch attempt to come up with something desirable in a $4/gal world. Sorry, but the new Honda Insight and Prius and a whole slew of affordable high mpg cars are here or just about here and the Cruz will be lost in the shuffle. I remember Lutz stating a while back that if gas goes back down the Volt will be in trouble. Well, that has come to fruition along with a major economic meltdown so it is a double whammy. A truly sad time for the American car industry.

(Quote)
Now it's Opel Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 10:41 am

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=atGf6uNC5_Vs&refer=germany

Aren’t there some some fresh lies about producing, some decade soon, the perfectly adequate Volt, as is, with massive pent up demand, they can tell to make this all better?

(Quote)
GM killed the diesel hybrid. Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

They could have crushed the Prius in 2004 with the Astra, dominated the Europe market in 2005 with their Opel below, et.c, etc.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/gm_unveils_opel.html

Nah, let’s just wait 5 years, float some vaporware and go poof! GM just completely ran away from their constantly blown chances at the peanut butter and chocolate diesel/hybrid combinations.

What’s next to die, GM Vauxhall?

(Quote)
chevonly Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

I USED TO THINK THE UNITED STATES WAS WORTH SAVING. But I gave up after the Republican monkey boy was elected to a second term I new then that the country was lost. So POSSUMS please visit the website financial sense and scroll down to the article AS GENERAL MOTORS GOES SO GOES THE NATION. You will be shocked at the similarities between the plight of GM and the United States, I can only hope that some of you who are joyfull at the demise of GM read this post and the article to get a look at what is going to happen to this country in the next year or two, and to you Republicans most of whom are to stupid to realize what you have done maybe that little light bulb will come on inside your head one more time, ENJOY THE RIDE ITS GONNA BE STEEP AND FAST.

(Quote)
2008 Lexus IS-F at Detroit Auto Show by Edmunds’ Inside Line Says:
February 28th, 2009 at 3:39 am
Neil Says:
February 28th, 2009 at 11:34 pm

# Replacement for 350Z…
What about a Pontiac G8 GXP? Perhaps it’s too roomy for you?
Maybe too much HP?
I know it’s not a two seater but it’s just the thing when two or three ladies want to go home with you

I drive a 97 Crown Victoria and my wife a 07 Ford Five Hundred. I used to own a 06 GMC Denali – one fine, fine truck. Mama made me sell because of the gas . In the past I’ve owned Honda’s, Mitsubishi and Subaru’s. I’d have the say, overall, the one I have enjoyed the most was the Denali. Second would be the Crown Victoria.

These are not sexy cars (not the Denali) but they meet our function and price point perfectly. They’re inexpensive to operate and both have 5 star safety ratings for front and rear passengers. I’m trying to replace the Crown Vic with a Fusion Hybrid. We’ll see about availability.

I spoken to several Honda/Toyota owners about US based manufactures. They have convinced themselves that these cars are not worth their time. Personally, I’m constantly disappointed with Toyota’s. For me, they’re too small, too cheap feeling, and the ride isn’t very good.

(Quote)
Wayne Says:
March 1st, 2009 at 2:35 pm

My house is now worth $50,000-$100,000 less than I paid for it. $300,000 originally. So that means I’m in the hole from what I owe anywhere from $5,000 to $55,000.

I have to make it work, GM needs to make it work. This is a really bad situation. I think they will have to declare bankruptcy. Look at all the airlines that have had to do it, and they continue to survive.

They are re-structured so they can. GM needs to do the same.

(Quote)

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