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Is BYD Auto Considering Purchasing Saturn? Tell Them What You Think

February 24th, 2009 | Posted in: Competitors

One of GM’s restructuring tasks is to shed or possibly spin off Saturn. A potential candidate to take over the Saturn brand is BYD (Build Your Dream) Autos. This is a Chinese company that has already begun the mass production and sale of their F3DM dual mode electric car in China for the equivalent of under $22,000 USD.

This car has a 60 mile all-electric driving range, uses lithium-iron phosphate batteries, and a gasoline range extender that can operate in either series or parallel mode. The company also hopes to sell vehicles in North America by 2011, but at present has no distribution channel.

Although conventional media has not been able to solicit a comment on this, I was able to reach two different Managers of BYD America, Fred Ni and Paul Lin.

My question to them was “Can you tell me if BYD is considering purchasing GM’s Saturn franchise as an opportunity for bringing BYD electric cars to America quickly?”

Lin replied “It is an opportunit(y), we will consider it carefully.”

Ni said “You asked tough questions. No decision for this one yet. What will be your suggestion?”

Well since he asked, tell him what you think.

Posted by: Lyle

141 Responses to “Is BYD Auto Considering Purchasing Saturn? Tell Them What You Think”

Rashiid Amul Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:06 am

I am perfectly okay with it. BYD may be considered something like Hyundai was back in the 1980s. Hyundai today can’t be compared to back then. Those cars are fantastic today as mine has just reached 182,000 miles and still going strong.

BYD has the added bonus of electrification of the automobile.
If BYD can make a decent reliable EV car, the more the merrier.

I am not a huge fan of Chinese products mind you, but I hate terrorism even more. I guess what I am saying is that I would rather support the Chinese than the Middle East. That is, of course, if the Americans don’t come through.

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Zach Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:17 am

Shit… we’re buying enough products from China as it is…

It’ll create a greater competition, so I suppose it can’t be too bad.

I doubt I would ever buy from them, but if the price is good enough, MAY-BE!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:19 am

From the article:
Ni said “You asked tough questions. No decision for this one yet. What will be your suggestion?”

————
Mr. Ni. An opportunity like this may not present itself again.
It would be much cheaper to take advantage of existing dealerships than it would be to build a whole new dealer network.
Taking over Saturn dealerships makes perfect sense to me.

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Exp_EngTech Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:30 am

A very interesting (and possible) scenario.

Buffett sees the future…..

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/warren-buffett-looks-electric-car/story.aspx?guid=%7B1FFA3661-1A19-423C-8375-FFAC4541B7CE%7D

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vincent Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:46 am

If they are going to make Pontiac a Niche item…use the Saturn stores for it…
I’m tired of over seas buying America. Especially China.

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D Lo Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:49 am

I would certainly consider buying a BYD if I feel that it is the best option on the market. Having a well established domestic brand–people in my generation actually prefer Saturn to Pontiac, Buick and even Chevy–can’t hurt. I don’t know how much control GM has over Saturn, as it has a unique arrangements with its dealers, but for the sake of GM I’d recommend against this. I think the risk to GM outweighs the reward.

If you are BYD, I’d make this deal ASAP.

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Arthur Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:09 am

Off topic I know, but I wish to draw the Forum’s attention to a meeting yesterday between US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton and the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond. In what was a very friendly and purposeful discussion by all accounts, they covered issues of mutual interest related to renewable energy and Scotland’s efforts to develop its unique wind, wave, hydro and tidal potential.

As a Volt fan and long term advocate of Scottish independence from the UK State, I salute their joint efforts to move the world along a more sustainable path.

Go Scotland, Go USA, Go Michigan, Go Volt.

NPNS

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Gsned57 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:11 am

This topic was touched a few threads ago (GM committed to the plug in VUE). I stick with what I said. I figure it’s only a matter of time before BYD buys one of the auto lines and Saturn probably makes more sense than any of the other ailing dealerships.

On the other hand I’m sick of getting poisoned toothpaste, dog food, kids toys, baby formula, and the most worthless useless tools ever (thanks harbor freight) from the Chinese. I really don’t think I’d be an early adopter of a BYD automobile.

At $22,000 with a 60 mile AER and $8000 back from the fed though my cheapness might compell me to give them a try. HALF THE PRICE OF THE VOLT and %50 more range! I know though that the quality won’t be there and neither will the systems engineering nor forethought that I believe the volt will have.

They probably should make this acquisition, but I swore off harbor freight a year ago and haven’t stepped foot in that store since, my dog toys come from Brazil and Mexico, my daughters toys will come from north America, and I really can’t tell you where my toothpaste comes. If I give their cars a chance it will only be once so they had better get it right the first time.

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Dave B Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:14 am

The “buy American only” mentality, I believe, does not hold water anymore. It takes American jobs to run dealerships in America. It is a fact of life. It also takes Chinese manufacturers for vehicles to be built and sold in American. Read a little bit, and find Chinese factories are closing down at a rate quicker than even in the US. They depend on us like we depend on them. I agree entirely with Rashiidd @ 1, “If BYD can make a decent reliable EV car, the more the merrier.” And I also agree, China for the moment, is a hell of a lot friendlier than the Middle East. Let’s hope it stays that way.

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NZDavid Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:23 am

Exp_EngTech #4. Thanks, an interesting read.

I think the F3DM is a great low end compliment for the Vue Plug in.

At the end of the day it’s what Warren Buffett thinks that matters, ask him.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:24 am

Saturn has a good standing with the American public. Quality cars from a manufacturing sector of GM which has stepped up with public financial assistance during disasters such as Katrina.

I have a close friend (a purchasing agent) who swears by Saturn and can’t say enough good things about his vehicle.

=D~

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Guy Incognito Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:26 am

BYD should buy it…
That way GM will have at least sold something this year, because nobody is buying their cars.

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old man Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:28 am

If a deal can be reached requiring a set percentage of content be manufactured in the United States then I could support it. I don’t want another ssembly plant here that can enjoy the cost advantage of a home manufactured power train.

I should think they would have more interest in Chrysler than Saturn. With no offense intended, I consider Saturn to be a has been that never made the grade. And today have only the remnents of a dealer network. Chryslers dealer network is at least better than Saturns. Also if Chrysler is being truthful, they have started an effort to go electric with more types of cars than Saturn.

But, dang if I wouldn’t pay to watch the UAW fight with China!

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Right Lane Cruiser Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:33 am

Actually, this is a fantastic idea if they fit their drivetrain into existing Saturn platforms to leverage the safety and quality advantages of Saturn (over their own platforms).

Bring back the SL2 with BYD propulsion.

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Joe Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:33 am

With time China will capture the world auto market and buying Saturn is just another step in this process. With China being a dictatorship, like it is, and paying it’s worker’s so little, I fear what the future holds for us .They will not have to do the RD because they will buy it. One has to asked, “how can we compete with such a Nation?” I sure hope our government has the answers.

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Jason The Saj Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:42 am

Go for it….

a) I’d rather see the brand continue.

b) If they can bring an electric to market…all the better.

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statik Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:47 am

Is BYD considering purchasing Saturn?
No…not even remotely

Tell them what you think?
I think that is a good position

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Joe Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am

old man@13 says

“I should think they would have more interest in Chrysler than Saturn. With no offense intended, I consider Saturn to be a has been that never made the grade.”

*************************************************************************************

to old man@13: With that kind of thinking, this is what will kill us. Don’t say they never made the grades because that is not so! Why are we our greatest enemy? Instead of knocking Saturn, go and buy a great car like the Aura (car of the year) or pick another among them. I bet you don’t own an American car and you’ll tell me you’ve owned them but had all kinds of problems with them. Well, try a new one and you’ll be surprise. This goes for everyone else who’s in love with foreign cars.

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statik Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am

On the topic of BYD and Saturn:

BYD has a good thing going, don’t see why they would be in any hurry to ruin it.

When the Chinese gov’t run auto company Qxizxyzxixzv (or something like that–I’m too lazy to look it up), went bankrupt 5-6 years ago, BYD did a smart/risky thing by buying Q’s carcus, so I can see how people could interpret this as ‘BYD loves to buy dead horses’

However, what BYD bought (besides a shell auto company) is the right to exploit the Chinese market, (namely the ability to produce in China-this practise has since been made illegal in China). We are now seeing the results of the marriage of cheap auto fabrication, coupled with the world’s largest ni-cad/li-Ion battery phone business—really cheap EVs.

Like all EV producers, what they can’t do is volume…and won’t be able to for some time. When the day comes supply has outstripped demand, maybe BYD gets a little more ambitious/creative.

BYD doesn’t need 400 pasty fat Saturn dealers looking to put a band-aid on their severed jugular to let them live for another few months at their expense, or the dealers putting a hefty margin on top of their product they have worked/cheated so hard to undercut the market, to try and keep the Saturn ‘beached whale’ in the paint.

Side note on BYD’s financials. BYD has run a pretty tight ship, and seems to be making the right moves. They have virtually doubled their revenues 3 years in a row (and income along with it), up to about 20 billion in 2007 (no 08s yet). Why screw that up with a major entry into the US?

However, you have to remember BYD is a young company. Up until only a couple years ago, BYD had never seen the number ‘1 billion’ in their bank account, and only recently capitalized on the hot craze-financing, to pump it up to 5 billion.

The question is, why would BYD be suicidal enough to enter this US auto market now? They have a good thing going where they are. BYD’s 5 billion in cash doesn’t go very far in NA, and I’m guessing their reception would be a little chilly here…so I’m not seeing the US gov’t greasing these wheels, or offering any free financing.

http://investing.businessweek.com/businessweek/research/stocks/financials/financials.asp?symbol=1211.HK&dataset=incomeStatement&period=A&currency=native

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Jason Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:53 am

Free Market System. Bring on the competition because it helps MY bottom line. Frankly, while I could just barely afford a Volt, the price is too steep. I won’t wait for Volt 2.0 as there will be too many options out there by then. I’d definitely consider BYD owned Saturn. American manufacturers have zero commitment to me and I feel the same way about them.

Heck, I’d even consider Miles Automotive’s highway speed vehicle (if it ever comes out) or my dark horse favorite the cityZenn (with Zennergy Drive). One thing is certain though, my next car must have a plug or I’ll have my Accord SE retrofitted to EV.

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AutoElectric Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:54 am

I would fully support BYD using a Saturn deal to bring their revolutionary vehicle to market.

I support any vehicle that is of good quality, meets all required safety and EMC testing, and gets us free of foreign oil imports.

The price is right, the features look good, if the quality is there, then I want one.

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statik Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:55 am

Side note about company financials:

GM has finally blessed us with announcement on a date for Q4/2008 results.

Thursday, February 26, 2009 at 7:00 a.m.

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=52393

/should be a ‘beaut

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old man Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:01 am

#18 Joe

By not making the grade, I was talking about their inability to sustain the acceptance they had for a short amount of time. I am, as you can see from my many other post a strong advocate for buy american and know from experience that our products are of high quality. I have only owned one car that was not built by one of the big three.

I believe the no haggle price is what killed Saturn not the quality of the product. Most of us do not like paying full price for a car.

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Dave G Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:18 am

Until China stops manipulating their currency, I would not buy a Chinese made car.

I’m not a “Buy American” type. I’ve bought foreign cars. I like a free and open market. But with China, the market only seems to flow in one direction, and if they keep manipulating their currency, that’s never going to change.

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carcus1 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:23 am

#19 Statik,
“The question is, why would BYD be suicidal enough to enter this US auto market now?
_______________________________________________________

Ummm, because China fears massive inflation lies ahead for the U.S. dollar and they want to hedge against that? (before China decouples their currency from the dollar and everything gets turned upside down)

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Adrian Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:26 am

Since we do work in a world wide economy, no use in protectionism. Toyota and Honda pushed the big three, and the ‘buy American’ motto probably did more to hurt them than help. I can say looking back at 20 years of my buy American bias. Look where that got the US car manufacture. Sure insane labor costs didn’t help, but this kick in the butt would of served all of us better if it happened in the 80s when the trouble was evident.
Go for BYD (but please think of a better name if you don’t use Saturn) and if you kick GM’s butt good for you and bad on GM.

Saturn’s no haggle price didn’t help, but how is that practice different than any other purchase you make? BTW, you do haggle prices at Saturn. It is called your used car. The dealers know that and they give you a good price there to make up for the no haggle.

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unni Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:29 am

Its is an opening for BYD. Cars will be cheap. Question is “do the workers are living in similar living standard as US”.

Americans may buy it saying it cheap and they now they know they are exporting their jobs. Its an informed decision. Still they can say BYD created new opportunities ( import manager, sales manager etc ) but make sure they killed again the manufacturing sector.

Last day was talking to a friend : America was out sourcing jobs ( manufacturing) for a long time. Only poor/middle class were affected and the purchasing power of normal public was going down. No body was worrying about it. When rich went out of cash , they said economy is in recession, stimulus packages came etc.

BYD through Saab/Saturn is again same , who cares manufacturing jobs , lets sell / buy cheap imports and cry later

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old man Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:33 am

Adrain

Before I retired I would put 45-50,000 miles on a car a year. I knew and the dealer knew that a car with well over a hundred thousand miles on it had little resale value. Hense I would get the best price on a clean sale [no trade in] And then find a buyer for my car.

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TALLPALL Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:44 am

*** 644 days to go ***

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carcus1 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:45 am

#27 unni,

“BYD through Saab/Saturn is again same , who cares manufacturing jobs , lets sell / buy cheap imports and cry later”
_______________________________________________________

I think unni is saying: Maybe that “floating barge” of manufacturing cheap labor we shoved off to Mexico, then Indonesia, then China is about to bump back on to our shoreline while nobody is looking.

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Jim in PA Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:46 am

What do I think? I think I am going to cry…

However, I am going to make a helpful suggestion to these fine Chinese gentlemen. “BYD” is your car company name. “BVD” is an underwear name well recognized in the US. Consider changing your name. (Note; although the word “Hanes” may also sound nicely American, you may want to avoid that one also).

PS – I will never buy a Chinese car. I just spent an extra $30 to get a pair of high-quality US-made workboots instead of their Chinese counterpart. Jobs matter. Industrial capacity matters. It’s just the kinda guy I am…

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Dylan Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:48 am

This would be a great move for BYD, no doubt facilitated by Warren Buffet’s many contacts. We the people get to buy an RE-EV/PHEV quickly, the American auto industry gets some real COMPETITION (the only thing that drives improvements in car design) and eventualy, if the car sells in large quantities, they will be have to start making the cars here too. That said, it doesn’t matter how fuel efficient you car is or what you run it on, NONE OF US WILL BE BETTER OFF FINANCIALLY ONCE THIS COMES INTO EFFECT, thought you’d save some money on fuel by buying an electric car? Prepare to be shafted once more people……….

http://freep.com/article/20090220/BUSINESS01/90220017/New+transportation+chief+eyes+tax+on+miles+driven

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Jackson Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:52 am

old man (re ‘no-haggle killed Saturn’):

The ‘haggle’ angle of car sales benefits the talented haggler, at the expense of everyone else.

I’m not a horse-trader, and the no-haggle “the price is the price” was attractive to me (and it was generally a good one).

If you’re a deal finding fiend, good for you; but don’t condemn Saturn for not playing your game.

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Jim in PA Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:53 am

First Thought — Yay! The BYD electric car has freed us from foreign oil dictatorships!

One Second Later — Shit! Our reliance on the BYD electric car has enslaved us to a foreign totalitarian dictatorship!

Yipee! What a great trade-off!

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RB Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:58 am

#22 statik on release of gm Q4. ==> Thank you.

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DonC Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:01 am

I’m with statik on this one. There are many car companies with large amounts of excess capacity and not many battery companies with no excess capacity. Seems like a good time to stick to your knitting.

On the Buffett story, keep in mind Buffett didn’t make the investment, one of his companies did. While he doubtless signed off, he’s a hand’s off manager, and the investment, which his company has said was limited by BYVD to less than it wanted, was in batteries not cars.

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Jackson Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:04 am

ON TOPIC:

(for the forum):

Does anyone know if lithium-iron phosphate batteries are as reliable or as safe as the ones we’ve discussed here? I’ve only heard the chemistry mentioned in connection with this car. Will they last as long inherently, and what does BYD do (if anything) in terms of on-board management to favor longevity?

(for BYD)

Feelings about China entering the US auto market are mixed, and you will run into that in more places than this forum. Americans will buy if the price is right, but only once if the quality is wrong.

I would suggest that making your cars available through an independent Saturn corporation might be a half-measure between staying home and opening your own NA dealership network. I wouldn’t buy Saturn outright, or demand that they exclusively sell your products.

Saturn has a reputation for good service as well as value, so their ability to service the car (in terms of your support) is an important consideration. What assurance are you willing to provide (via warranty or other remedies) for battery replacement, for example? How hard is it to replace the battery?

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Jim in PA Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:04 am

#33 Jacksom – I actually look forward to the haggling. Car salesmen are a transparent predictable bunch. I dislike them and enjoy the battle. The wind goes out of their sails once it dawns on them that you know their tricks, you know the invoice price, you know more about the car than they do, you are immune to the hard sell, and you are willing to walk away.

The best part is when I spring the $2000 GM credit card discount on them at the end. You see, they are forbidden from asking up-front if you have it, because it is supposed to the a GM direct discount, not a negotiation chip for the dealer to play with in his pricing. But dealers always ask up-front anyway, because they are fundamentally dishonest. So you say “no I don’t have it”, then after the final sale price is negotiated you say “oh yeah, I do have it after all.” Man, does that irk their dishonest ass off…

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Schmeltz Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:11 am

#31 Jim in PA said, “PS – I will never buy a Chinese car. I just spent an extra $30 to get a pair of high-quality US-made workboots instead of their Chinese counterpart. Jobs matter. Industrial capacity matters. It’s just the kinda guy I am…”

Maybe it’s just us Pennsylvania boys Jim, but I feel the exact same way. I am very willing to buy a USA made product, and pay a little more, but happy to note I supported a fellow countryman with a job. That’s nationalistic I realize, and I am not ashamed of it.

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Tim Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:13 am

“This is a Chinese company that has already begun the mass production and sale of their F3DM dual mode electric car in China for the equivalent of under $22,000 USD.”

What’s slowing up GM? The bigger the ship, the slower the turn and longer the stop!

Perhaps allowing bankruptcy to chop GM up into smaller, more flexible companies with less overhead competing against each other would be a good thing. Kind of like our founders idea of States competing with each other for tax base instead of suffering an all-powerful federal top-down Oligarchical Collectivist monopoly. Maybe that’s why they wrote the largely ignored 9th & 10th Amendments?

Anyway, perhaps we should have just let GM go bankrupt and reorganize before redistributing $Billions in taxpayer to them. Don’t be fooled, those “loans” will be gifts before this is over and competition is a good thing!

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Detfan Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:16 am

I don’t buy anything that isn’t made in America, by an American Company, if I ever can help it. Hard to do most times, but in the auto’s case, not hard at all. Too much of our money leaves this country as it is.

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GM-fan Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:17 am

Hey….

Should we more focus on popularity of electric car….

Follow the economic trend, not many ppl can afford a 40K Volt, a 20K BYD car can help to make electric car more popular….once we have more competition and public acceptance, we can fight against oil giants….

# 36

If you read more about the Buffett invest in BYD story, you will know that, it’s charlie munger suggest Buffet to invest, Buffet then asked MidAmerican to visit BYD for 4 days. BYD actually reject Buffet as he want to buy 20%, finally they come out a deal to buy 10% only….

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RB Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:19 am

#38 Jim in PA says
” I actually look forward to the haggling. Car salesmen are a transparent predictable bunch. I dislike them and enjoy the battle. The wind goes out of their sails once it dawns on them that you know their tricks, you know the invoice price, you know more about the car than they do, you are immune to the hard sell, and you are willing to walk away.”
===================================

With greatest respect, I think you are far to negative and cynical. Car salesmen are trying to earn a living. I enjoy negotiating the price. They do also. . In my opion, an outstanding negotiator is never dishonest. Maybe that excellent negotiator does not disclose everything, maybe along the way she leans this way and that, but what is said or written is honestly presented.

After all, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed by all parties, and last minute shifts by the salesman or customer can throw a monkey wrench into the whole deal. It’s much better to conclude with congratulations all around.

With greatest respect, I can get a good price —- indeed a very very good price — by having patience and showing respect. I agree that the customer has to be willing to walk away, and also willing to come back. Perhaps the main limitation of most customers is that they lack patience, which good negotiation requires absolutely.

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carcus1 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:22 am

#25 add,

Or, if you wanted to be optimistic, maybe BYD’s iron battery is everything they say it is and they’re about to kick the snot out of the entire automotive industry.

Lyle, it’s time to quit your day job and become a full time investigative journalist. First assignment: test drive in Hong Kong.

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Ray Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:22 am

And you know with GM dealerships… and all of them being in trouble right now with the lack of sales…. STILL are not willing to drop their prices,,,maybe throw in a few freebies (oil changes etc).. and they wonder why you are walking away from the “deal of the month”..
I never have and never will pay the window sticker price…
On my 07 MAXX… I got $1500 off the sticker… one year free oil changes… limo tint on the windows and XM radio for a year free.

Come Sept.. the 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid will be in my driveway.. unless…
GM ??? what will you have out there to compete ? and at a decent price? And available NOW..

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HyperMiler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:31 am

All existing BYD models are pirated copy of Toyotas. BYD models, including both F3DM and F6DM cannot be sold in the US because they are subject to seizure at the point of US port entry.

Furthermore, no Chinese car is ready for sale in the US. Chinese cars are designed to last 6~7 years and 120K miles at most, and that’s not long enough to cover warranty.

And then there is pricing issue. Chinese cars in the US are projected to be 10% cheaper than models from major automakers. There is no Chinese price on Chinese cars because of high imported content required to meet US Federal regulations.

In a summary, the first Chinese cars in the US are likely to be Brilliance or SAIC’s MG line of cars, not BYD’s.

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Jackson Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:33 am

Like I say, if haggling floats your boat, OK. Just know that after you leave with your deal and a big smile on your face, the next customers may not be so lucky — the sales person/dealership will be looking to make up for your deal with them if they aren’t the horse trader you were. Saturn was a refreshing change, and I’ll miss it.

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Gordon Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:34 am

#38 Jim

You don’t have a clue about the car business, and we laugh our asses off when clowns like you leave the dealership.

People like you blow the CSI for dealerships even when we give you a great deal, so it is to our advantage to let you leave and waste some other dealer’s time and CSI.

What I enjoy most is when a jerk like you finds out that they can’t use all 2000 of your GM Card points on certain models, so now you can’t afford the car you want.

You want to see a better economy and a healthier GM? Pay the MSRP. No? Really? Can I buy something at your company for a 20% loss?

Please buy a Saturn from BYD. Then you can hear “That guy was a real jerk” in Chinese.

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Redeye Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:44 am

BYD,

Go For It !

I might not buy it but many will.

The more electric cars we get on the road the better.

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Frank D Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:50 am

This makes sense. The Saturn brand has an excellent network of dealerships and will serve as a more affordable player in the E-REV market.

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Laura Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:52 am

I believe in free trade, but it has to go two ways. The US government is insane if they let China have access to the American Market under anything other than the conditions that GM and Ford have to go through in order to have access to the chinese market.

Those are:
1. All imported cars are subject to a prohibitive tarriff.
2. Imported parts are subject to a prohibitive tarriff.
3. In exchange for access to the US market, they must pair with one of the US manufacturers that basically do nothing both a)get at least 50% ownership and profits, and b)get to copy their technology not to mention their trademark, which admittedly isn’t valuable at this point.

Somehow I think that these conditions would make the BYD vehicle more expensive than the volt. Of course, China could always respond by giving GM and Ford complete ownership of their Chinese divisions in exchange for free access to the US market, but I don’t see that happening….

That said, the US will probably give China free access to our markets in exchange for nothing at all, and not demand reciprocity. Sometimes I think the US government exists for no reason other than to destroy US jobs.

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Redeye Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:56 am

Sell ‘em at Wal-Mart.

Would fit right in with the rest of the W-M Chinese stuff.

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HyperMiler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:57 am

What Saturn needs is a range of small and compact cars to sell by the end of next year, not some electric cars that only cult members would buy.

Sorry, but Saturn will probably turn to Daewoo(This is most likely scenario since all non-US Chevrolets are already Daewoos), Mitsubishi or Kia for OEM product before going Chinese. Chinese are not ready to enter US market until 2015 at the earliest.

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Betered Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 10:59 am

Hilarious. The Chinese fall for yet another western ploy!!

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HyperMiler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:02 am

BTW, electric/hyrbid vehicles are required to provide 10 year/150K mile warranty in the US thanks to CARB. BYD didn’t even design its cars to last 7 years, and I doubt BYD batteries would last more than 7 years either, going by how BYD overcharges and overdrains battery to extend range.

So forget about your BYD dreams.

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Tall Pete Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:13 am

TALLPALL #29

Do you really intend to countdown the days before (expected) launch on each post for the next two years ?

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Gary Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:14 am

I can’t imagine even more products made in China being brought to North America. America has already sold out its future by looking short-term… buying stuff for little or no money down now for a crippling financial blow in the future. That is, people buy stuff made overseas that is inexpensive, but in the future, Americans will realize that it was a bad long-term decision to send so many people to the unemployment line. What’s the point of having cheap stuff to buy if people don’t have jobs to afford it?

What happened to national pride? The last 8 years of life in the U.S. under a certain doofus president sure didn’t help. Mr. Obama should mention take on a national policy of: “If you want it, America, you’d better learn to build it yourself or prepare to pay for it through the nose”.

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noel park Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:26 am

I’m not going to buy one under any circumstances, so I don’t presume to advise them.

1000 thanks to all of you who are trying to buy American products and preserve US jobs. Me too.

Did anyone see “Gran Torino”? Poor Clint worked his whole life in the Ford plant and his son is selling Toyotas. LOL.

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BruceinOH Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:34 am

Product nationalism is just dumb, no matter what country you are nationalistic about. Its a world economy and lines on a map don’t mean anything. Whoever makes the best product for the best prices wins. If you want be successful, be the company that does it best. I will never let a product’s country of origin influence my purchasing decisions. Someone had a job making it.

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Patrick Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:35 am

Wall-Mart is killing the US economy right now, and now we are willing to give them a wide open door to invade the North American market with cars sold at prices we can’t compete against.
Kicking Wall-Mart out would probably solve the entire crisis……anyway

If this transcaction happens, the auto industry will die, much faster than it is right now with the Japanese automakers since the Japs have higher operating costs than the Chineese do. China can sell at much lower costs.
Hence, those same people that shop at Wall-Mart will start buying Chineese cars; and trust me, there is already a crap load of people shopping at that store.

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Mike Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:41 am

Think about it. China has loaned the US the money to finance our spending spree for the last ten years and has not pulled the plug on our outstanding debt. I say if they want to sell cars here then let them. Isn’t the US all about competition? Buy their cars so they will keep funding our debt.

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HyperMiler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:44 am

@ #60 Patrick

Chinese cars aren’t cheaper than Japanese or Korean automobiles of equivalent spec, the labor accounts for only 10% of cost so the price advantage through cheaper labor is only 10% at most. This is not enough to persuade buyers to try Chinese brand cars. You only get into trouble with labor cost if your company is run like Detroit(Health Care and retiree benefits), or VW(High wage and low efficiency).

The truth is, “Chinese Price” on automobiles doesn’t exist, because these Chinese cars headed to US market must be loaded with imported content to meet US regulations, and this drives up cost sky high.

In case you haven’t noticed, 99% of Japanese auto market belong to Japanese brand and 95% of Korean auto market belong to Korean brand, but only 30% of Chinese auto market brand belong to Chinese brands, with foreigners stealing market share from Chinese brands at this very moment. Why? Because foreign brands already ran over Chinese market, making sure that Chinese brands would never gain a profit fat enough to finance massive expansion programs like Japanese and Koreans did back in the 60s and 80s.

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MarkinWI Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:50 am

I didn’t mind Saturn’s no-haggle policy when car sales were humming because I felt like at least it was a level playing field and I was probably getting a fair deal. The problem with Saturn’s no-discount/no-negotiation/one-price policy was that it did not work during down-turns in auto sales, let alone the cliff that we just drove off. Whenever car sales were slow, someone else was always advertising a better deal. This had to hurt Saturn.

Jim @ #38, Gordon @ #48 et al – I don’t mind negotiating, I do it every day at work. The problem is that in order for negotiations to work well both parties have to understand what the reasonable parameters are for a deal. By working well, I mean that both parties are satisfied that the deal was fair enough that they would want to deal with each other again.

Gordon made clear he’d rather not deal with customers like Jim. What Gordon hasn’t done is laid the case for why MSRP is fair. Every consumer organization in the world is telling you that you need to understand invoice price and dealer volume incentives in order to determine what is a fair deal. I think what we’re all looking for is to be treated fairly (the Jim’s of the world aside, who want to one-up you). So my question for Gordon is, “do you have any practical advice for knowing when you are getting a fair deal, other than, ’shut up and pay the MSRP?’”

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BillR1 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:51 am

#10 NZDavid, (but also those who like to buy American, like me).

“At the end of the day it’s what Warren Buffett thinks that matters, ask him.”

Here is a interesting paper by Warren Buffet on the US trade deficit.

http://www.summitglobal.com/acrobat_pdf/warren_buffett_in_fortune_magazine_oct_03.pdf

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:51 am

I haven’t read all the posts but I think it is now time to initiate the plan “Throw Lyle on the Plane” so he can go test drive the F3DM.

Someone contact him and start a fund. I’ll drop $50 in the bucket to send his butt there to test drive and evaluate the car. I want full videos inside out, under the hood, trunk and I want to see him stomp on the gas…..er…..um the Accelerator. I just want to see what the competition has for my Volt.

I don’t want to do it because I just might get too tempted to take the $$$ to Lake Tahoe to the tables.

Lyle, make sure to check to see if they have a stripped down model …
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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RLM Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:53 am

I wonder if GM has evaluated BYD’s Lithium -Ion battery and approached them as a Battery supplier?
If BYD has confidence that they can provide an Auto with the quality,safety and reliability required to compete in the U.S. market, purchase of the Saturn brand and dealership would probably speed the entry into our market.
Competition is sure to speed the development the electric Auto and should be welcomed.

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D.. Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:54 am

Judging from this thread, Merican youth have no sense, been drinking from the vat of free trade kool-aid. Happy to trade with a police state if it saves them a buck or two. Boo-yah!

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Scott Leon Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:55 am

Unoquivocably, YES. Buy Saturn. It will give BYD a ready made and trusted distibution channel into the US market and will bring us a plug-in electric car. It’s a win-win!

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 11:57 am

#59 BruceinOH
“I will never let a product’s country of origin influence my purchasing decisions.”

You seem very resolute in your position. Surely you must have some limit/conscience. What if a country kidnapped US children and forced them to make toasters. Would you buy one of those toasters if they were the least expensive and best toasters in the world? Some people vote with their dollars (e.g., the “Fair Trade” movement). It might cost a litle more to do so, but it promotes a vision and has a social impact.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

@MarkinWI 63
“Jim @ #38, Gordon @ #48 et al – I don’t mind negotiating, I do it every day at work. The problem is that in order for negotiations to work well both parties have to understand what the reasonable parameters are for a deal. ”

I hate that shlt. A car should have one price tag. Why should you have to haggle a price if the sticker price/dealer is honest on what it is? A new car has a set value right? If not Why not? Isn’t there a standard of manufacturing the product to be the same as the next car on the production line? Why is one car different in price from Joe Schmoe’s down the street? It’s the phukin same car. This annoys me.
Price the car accordingly. It’s a general product that is “Manufactured” and the price should not deviate.

OK, so there’s the financing portion you say. A person’s “Finacialability” (if that’s a word), is almost always dictated by their credit score. Each dealer has a list of banks they can apply the customers SSN to and they should get the lowest rate. I have a strong feeling they do not initially present the buyer with the lowest rate, IMHO. That’s where they they bend you over and haggle you.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:09 pm

#65 CaptJackSparrow

I with you, man. I want a stripped-down BEV. Realistically, due to the state of technology, I suppose it would have to be a budget-priced, stripped-down, Aptera-esque car. How hard can that be to make? Take a golf cart, beef up it’s speed and range, and put a shell on it.

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statik Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

#58 noel park said:

Did anyone see “Gran Torino”? Poor Clint worked his whole life in the Ford plant and his son is selling Toyotas. LOL.
===================
I don’t think I have missed a Clint movie in the theater since I was 13…well, maybe Bridges of MC. Gran Torino was pretty decent, Clint didn’t stray too far from his bread and butter, which is a plus.

/only thing that movie needed…more growling.

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HyperMiler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

@ #68 Scott Leon Says:

BYD cars are not(and cannot because of piracy issues) ready to come to the US. Distributing unreliable BYDs would also quickly ruin Saturn’s reputation and pile up warranty cost.

Chinese cars are not an option for Saturn at this point or in near term.

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old man Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:25 pm

#64 Billr1

That is a great site. Even this OLD MAN understood it.

Thanks

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DaV8or Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

BruceinOH #59-

“I will never let a product’s country of origin influence my purchasing decisions. Someone had a job making it.”

————————————————————————————

With this type of mentality being the dominate one in the US, all I can say is a good investment for the future will be in companies that make securtity devices and companies that contract to build prisons. We’re already seeing this trend as a result of the “wide open free market” and “I don’t give a rat’s ass what impoverished slave child built my cheap gizmo! I got mine, so I’ll do as I please.” attitude.

If this trend continues, our choices will be to keep locking them up or double our taxes so we can put more people comfortably on the dole and create lots of unneeded government jobs to keep people busy and out of jail. This is how many of the nations Europe have delt with this issue, that and a bit of protectionism to save the precious manufacturing jobs they still have left. Ever wonder why Toyota isn’t the number one selling brand in Europe?

More on topic- I think Saturn would be a good purchase for BYD in the future, but Statik is right, they’re not ready. So happily for those of us that care about our country and our countryman, the Chinese will not enter the market just yet, but it’s coming and when it does, we will do what we always do these days, screw ourselves.

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The Grump Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:33 pm

I hate car dealers in general, and I hate car salesman in particular. Why? Haggling. Every car salesman* (*I have a broad brush, and I’m not afraid to use it) has only one thing on their beady little mind when I walk in – will this sale send them to Las Vegas, Burmuda, or Paris? Which makes them all real sumbitches in my book. All they see is a wallet to be sucked dry. Do they care about you – not one microscopic bit. But I have to deal with them. Thanks, Jim from PA for the good tip on the GM card. Take that, you thieving car-tards.

Back on topic, do you really want a car with a name that reminds you of mens underwear (BYD, BVD)? Which models come with lead paint for the kids to chew on? Seriously, to you free traders, how do I compete with Chinese wages? Answer: I would have to work for Chinese wages, live in a lean-to, and both heat and cook with wood from old pallets. What a lovely vision of America – NOT !

Real answer: If you sell it here, build it here – on US soil, with US workers, at US wages – and no using political prisoners for free labor, like in China. If BYD builds them here, I have no problem with that.

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StevePA Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

#70 CaptJackSparrow

Agreed.
I have fortunately always been in the position of not needing financing, and have rarely traded in a used vehicle. So those deals have been simpler than what most folks have to endure. They have my sympathy. Buying a new vehicle should be an uplifting experience. Instead, with the standard sales model my guess is most people place it ahead of visiting the dentist on the scale of unpleasantness.

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jabroni Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

I would buy the BYD PHEV-60 in a heartbeat. How can you beat the price?

Use the money you would save on a VOLT purchase ind install solar panels!

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noel park Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

Here’s my optimistic scenario for today, hehehe. I just read somewhere (here?) that China is now the world’s biggest car market. Also, the Chinese government is supposedly strongly encouraging very efficient and clean cars. So, maybe BYD will sell all of these they can make in China for the forseeable future. Thus, at least some remnant of the US auto industry survives.

I can hope, can’t I?

#70 CaptJackSparrow:

Amen brother, preach on!

We have bought out last two Chevy trucks via the internet. I have gone to the website, searched for a truck with the equipment I wanted, and and clicked on “get a quote”. Both times, prices have come back that I thought were such good deals that I just ran right down and put down the $$. True story.

Granted, these were leftovers from the previous model year (bottom feeders that we are!), but still it really worked. Also, I have used my GM card rebates to buy 4 Chevys in the last 14 years, for a total of about $8K. I have never had one word of whining or complaining from anyone at the dealers.

Maybe the internet system is a model for the future. Just bypass the whole @#$%^ obnoxious process.

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kjw Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

I think it would be great. Buffett can’t be wrong. Besides, with BYD already having an EV, this my help keep GM and Chrysler focus on producing EVs the future. However, if they (GM/Chrysler) go under, will still have a chance at getting one from BYD, maybe as a Saturn…

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Chris Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

#1 Rashiid

Ofcourse you would be ok with this. You don’t own a Saturn. Speak to Saturn owners and see if they would like their vehicles made in China.

Also, how can you say that you are not a fan of chinese products, when most everything in your home is made in China?

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MarkinWI Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

BillR1@ #64 – Thanks for the great article. It almost makes you wonder if Warren is striking back a little bit by buying a piece of BYD. Economic jujitsu. Kind of mind-bending if you think about it too hard, at least while smoking illegal substances.

Capt @ #70 – Negotiations become involved in a lot of sales, even in the U.S. New house? Negotiate. O.K., I’ll take you at your word that you are trailer trash. New mobile home? Negotiate. New bass boat? Negotiate. New bicycle? Negotiate, at least if you are in a bike store. Toys-R-Us, pay the sticker price. New cookware? Negotiate if you are in a locally-owned specialty store, pay the sticker price if you are at Wal-Mart.

I think the common thing here is that chain retail stores don’t negotiate (even in Mexico you can’t haggle over the price of juice at a Supermercado) and in locally-owned stores you often can. And that’s what car dealerships are: locally-owned stores. I’ll try Noel Park’s way next time.

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Heartland-Dan Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:36 pm

Personally, I am very impressed that BYD would casually (but professionally) seek an outside opinion. To me it shows a genuine interest for new perspectives and a forward thinking attitude. Thank you BYD.

My vote, Go for it! I cant remember the last time I was truly excited by the release of a new production car. Althought some are in the works, I cant own and drive an idea…

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

Disappointing results – just 51 mpg – for converted PHEV Priuses in Seattle

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/24/disappointing-results-just-51-mpg-for-converted-phev-priuses/

The problem with third party conversion of Hybrids is that no matter what you augment the vehicle with battery wise the binaries inside will still do the same thing it was written to do. All they’re doing is tricking the computer to think the charge of the OEM battery is still more than it is. Now if you alter the embeded program in the computer to allow a deeper drain, then you will get more out of the added battery.
That’s just IMHO.

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Stew Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

I don’t know if purchasing Saturn is the right move or not, but I absolutely want to see more options for EVs.

Perhaps a small number of strategically placed dealers in the US, a couple in Cali, one in Seattle, NY, etc. And don’t restrict sales to residents of those states only.

Stew

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Joe Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

Jim in PA Says: @31

Congratulation Jim in PA! If we had more people like yourself in the US, we would not be in the bind we are in now.
I also buy American as much as i can but I find it harder and harder as the years go by. I hope we can reverse this trend for our kids sake.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 1:54 pm

@Joe 86
“I also buy American as much as i can but I find it harder and harder as the years go by. ”

This is so true. But if US manufacturers are not producing a product for Americans, Say an EREV ;o) or BEV, and China (BYD) currently is, what should one do? Of course you can’t get either one now in the US but one of them is already on the roads on this planet. Should you hold out for the theoretical one in financial distress or the foreign one?
I have to say I am honestly torn in this scenario.

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bill saw Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

very good idea., go for it. bill

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JonP. Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

#61 Mike
“Think about it. China has loaned the US the money to finance our spending spree for the last ten years and has not pulled the plug on our outstanding debt.”

That is exactly why any chinese car company will be aloud to sell cars or anything they want with none of the restrictions they put on our companies to sell in their market. Its or court but they own the ball, the nets, the bleechers, the vendors,…….

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Shawn Marshall Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

Never bought a foreign car – never will. Might be walking.

We need to fix our trade imbalances. “Free Trade” is not free and it is not fair.

I’d suggest BYD work to eliminate the Communist Party in China by developing their own market and middle class labor and stay out of our business.

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

Without taking time to read the comments, I would like to say that I hope GM will not sell anything to a Chinese company. I would NEVER buy a vehicle from a Chinese company. Enough said.

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Gordon Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:03 pm

#70 CaptJackSparrow & #63 MarkinWI

Guys. I’m all for the Saturn model of car pricing. In fact, I’ve owned a Saturn. Good car. Boring, but good.

I agree that there should just be one price, and that’s that. But generations of car buyers have learned “don’t pay sticker price”. To change how cars are sold today to a “one price” model would never be accepted if it were industry wide.

So now the consumer feels empowered to dictate what is a “fair profit”. (or usually what is a fair loss…) I know of no other industry where that is the case.

When the VOLT finally arrives in a showroom for sale, I’m sure everyone who reads this blog will know what the dealer paid for it, how much holdback there is, and every other dealer cost. It’s no big secret anymore.

What I find hilarious is the “self-important-I-know-everything-about-the-car-business-and-I’m-gonna-stick-it-to-a-car-salesman” types who think just because they have that information it gives them the right to a huge discount.

Those are usually the ones with a credit score so low, they couldn’t buy their mother’s love.

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:11 pm

This comment is for GM: Look, stupid, inviting or allowing the Chinese to purchase Saturn is showing just how ignorant you can be. Letting the Chinese into the U.S. market with an already established dealer network is letting the fox into the chicken house. The Chinese will be twice as hard to compete with than the Japanese ever were. They have the full backing of the Chinese government to take over a large portion of the U.S. auto market. I know BYD will say they are privately owned, but in China being privately owned just means that instead of a regular branch of government owning part of you, the military owns you. There is no priviately owned large companies in China.

GM, you would be better off going to the European company that wanted to buy Saturn last year to make it their “green” label. At least you would be able to compete on an even footing. I would prefer that you close down Pontiac, Buick and GMC and keep Chevrolet, Cadillac and Saturn. Makes much more sense. Save all that money you are wasting on these other three divisions and keep the three that can be your future. IMO.

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GB Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

Absolutely! I will buy one if affordable.

Since the U.S. is more geared towards supporting the oil companies, China should definitely take the lead in electric cars and deserves to keep the profits from it.

I will do whatever it takes to get into this type of car. The technology has been there for a long time and the US chose not to jump, and so now we need someone that will. There is no reason to use oil and gas for cars. It is foolish.

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k-dawg Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

Volt Engine Update:

GM is going to build the Volt engine in an existing plant in Flint.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/02/24/ap6089692.html

So they scrapped the new plant.. but it looks like they are going to at least build them in Flint.. who knows when.

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Keith Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

This is a reposting…..

This would be a beautiful business opportunity for BYD , it has been announced that GM will close out Saturn dealers and set them free but before that happens they will get to sell some real nice Hybrids . The staff and mechanics will become familiar with real Hybrids and get to know and understand the electronics.

BYD could come in here with their high quality Hybrid that will sell in the low $20, 000. range and have a network already set up.

A perfect fit , time for BYD to do some serious talking to Saturn Principles about selling reasonably priced Hybrids.

Ditch the amber rear turn signals and replace them with red , Change the speedometer to miles per hour from kilometers for USA ( Canada is metric so that wouldn’t need to be changed )
and print up English stickers and on board car labels .

They have already been crash tested and passed with flying colors .
Time to do some serious marketing BYD , The network is there for your taking. Go get it , business is business . It is a win , win situation for everybody .

A little extra side note,

If I were running BYD I would be recruiting the best English Majors from universities in China right now that were taught by Canadian or American English teachers or professors to train them to operate the stores in North America . The first stores that I would consider would be in cities that have a large Chinese population as well. San Francisco , Los Angeles , Vancouver , and Toronto , then cities with big populations of highly educated well paid people who would want , could afford and would demand the new technology.
I also would only have one store per population of one million so the car lot is always sold out quickly , not like those fully packed car lots with unsold cars of GM and Chrysler that just sit there day after day.

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Mitch Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 3:51 pm

#93 N Riley..

Are you for or against Gvmnt loans to the big 3?

By your comments, I have to assume you support the auto bail outs…Because of the conditions..GM may HAVE to sell off brands, unless the GVMNT limits Who they can sell to..highest offer wins, and like so many others,,,your patriotism ends at the wallet…

Just curious…no insult intended…

to Everyone else..

The Wal marting of America is not a fiction..everyone thinks “I can by the same TYPE of thing at wal mart for a few bucks less..saving me money..”.who cares if it comes from China..its crappier, may have lead paint, and tainted ingredients, but hey I can buy 2 for the same as the US made one…

I work in Manufacturing, and I can tell you we (right now) make it all in NA. and other than 1-3 gvmnt contracts..the idea “Made in the USA” means shit shinola to 95% of you..we have the best warranty, and can document life expectancy, we tested the Chinese comp and the quality isn’t 1/2, but guess what…we are looking China..why? to get more business from the cheap bastards that will buy something that is 5 cents less. we could lose a several million in sales to made in U.S. spec sales, spend a few mill developping in China, and still make more money after paying to ship it all…because the profits still come here.

ANd that is the problem with foreign manufacturers. The profits do NOT come here…oh sure they are building plants, and hiring assemblers, but iother than income and sales taxes, corporate profits are off shore…AND the markets there are not open to us..not only free trade..but it has to be FAIR trade…BYD cannot make that car here for that price..we have safety standards, and I DOUBT they are even close to meeting them…

I am all for competition, but it has to be FAIR competition..we have enviromental, workplace safet and a host of other rules..there? they have a new factory,andif there are 100 jobs, there are 100,000 applicants..fire a guy, there is no protection and there are still 100,000 waiting to fill that position…

Go there..see…you are all deluding yourself with “world market” “free trade”..they may be true, but it is not FAIR trade

Japan, Korea can sell as many as they can get here, build here, whatever..the big 3 have been fighting for the same opportunity there. and..”they’re working on it…so sorry” yeah..and the checks in the mail..they’ll respect us in the morning, and they love us…

Hell the columbian drug lords help create more American jobs..gvmnt agents, military spending, law enforcement, rehab, medical, weapons deveollopment, and they buy american stuff because they can afford it..

The short sightedness of all this will sink us all…

China OWS the USA..we owe way to much money …OPEC too..black crack..

Wake up…

(rant over)

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:07 pm

@ Mitch 97

I like your rant. It points out many things. However, I must mention that one of the Big 3, specifically Ford (only because I own one), builds their products in Mexico. So your telling me to buy some American product you say? Well I did and so far every part I had to replace was a piece manufactured in Mexico. As a mater of fact my Explorer was built in Mexico. Sure I did what you sugest Americans should do but guess what…….your American Corporation shipped the job elsewhere. You want to know why? Your quote is why…”there is no protection and there are still 100,000 waiting to fill that position…” Dude, you are 100% correct. Nobody can argue that. Poeple outside the US will do the same job for grotesquely less. Why? Because they can and the bar for them to do so is low and they’re environment of living is low. Yeah it sucks that it’s like that but. The moral here is that if we don’t want to do it for less, someone else will do it for less.

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k-dawg Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:15 pm

People talking about haggling on this thread… wasnt’ it Saturn that had the red-tag sale, where there was no debate, you just paid the price on the red tag?

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Mitch Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:18 pm

Capt Jack.

In a way Mexico is not my issue, its the countries that hate us, or don’t believe in democracy, or don’t care about its people. Mexico really is not that bad, and the trade is reasonably fair, like with Canada.

Forign countries are buying up LAND here, because they can..sure there is a limit, but know what..you can get around that.

And I agree with the moral..but there has to be a fair ENFORCABLE standard. I am sure that if workman safety, and envionmental rules applied, China would not be as attractive as it is..as a communist country, they will tell groups like Greenpeace to blow it our their a$$..if cutting down that rare endangered tree means a panda has no home,….GREAT..they can then sell the Panda to a zoo too..

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k-dawg Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

Here’s a better article on the Flint plant

http://www.freep.com/article/20090224/BUSINESS01/90224058/GM+scraps+new+Flint+engine+plant+plans

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

@Shawn Marshall 90
“I’d suggest BYD work to eliminate the Communist Party in China by developing their own market and middle class labor and stay out of our business.”

Easier said than done. Humor me and empathize for a minute. You own a biz over seas and Disney Co or Mattel or some big US corp asks you to make their product. You are going to profit a great deal and your company name is splattered on the product. What are you going to say?

Interesting scenario because it happens all the time, every day. US companies reach out to foreign manufacturers to produce for them. Why? Because it’s cheaper. It’s cheaper to mfgr overseas and spend $$$ to ship it here than it is to mfgr it here. Who do you blame?

Everybody seems to blame consumers but in reality it’s the big corporations and the US employment that makes products “unfeasable” to mfgr here. True, working conditions here are better but at what cost?

Sucks, I know.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

BYD could pick up Saturn for a song. Moreover, BYD could change their brand name to Saturn and dump the BYD moniker. I think it is too good a deal for any Chinese automaker to pass up, especially BYD.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

Just curious, if GM “Has” to offload Saturn, do they have the right to say who can buy it?

fyi, I own a 97 Saturn SL2 and it still runs like a mofo……

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

Quoting the $22,000 price of the BYD car is for the Chinese market. If it comes over here the price will probably be around $35,000. That is for several reasons. One, to meet government requirements the car will have to be beefed up a lot. Two, no one is going to sell a car like this when all its competitors are selling theirs over $35,000. Three, all vehicles sold in the U.S. carry a much higher price tag than necessary to make a good profit because we are used to paying high prices for foreign cars. So, in my opinion, that $22,000 price is going to balloon a good bit. Where it stops, no one knows.

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Koz Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

Jackson #37

“Does anyone know if lithium-iron phosphate batteries are as reliable or as safe as the ones we’ve discussed here? I’ve only heard the chemistry mentioned in connection with this car. Will they last as long inherently, and what does BYD do (if anything) in terms of on-board management to favor longevity?”

Sorry, don’t KNOW the answer but I’ld be willing to bet they are nearly the same as A123. Most likely proceed by a spinoff from the manufacturer that makes A123’s cells or people that learned the process from that facility. This is how reputable companies been “done” by China for years. Maybe our government will wake up to the piracy and start offering real protection but I haven’t seen much action on this front yet. A123 and the other obtuse companies that sent their products over their for manufacturing without very tight controls have themselves to blame as well. It’s not like this hasn’t been happening for some time.

It’s not like there aren’t any unique Chinese products and good, honest manufacturers over there. The problem is that rampant pirating has gone unchecked for far too long.

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

#51 Laura

“That said, the US will probably give China free access to our markets in exchange for nothing at all, and not demand reciprocity. Sometimes I think the US government exists for no reason other than to destroy US jobs.”
——————

Seems to be working pretty good the last two decades or so. If you want a nation’s populace to be dependent on the government from cradle to grave, what better way to accomplish this? Stimulus plan #1 to be followed by stimulus plan #2 and later next year stimulus plan #3, if still needed to remake our capitalistic society into a worker’s paradise controlled by government largess. Will we be a socialist country then? Depends on you definition of socialism. We have not been a true capitalistic country for about 75 years. Government has entered into every facet of our personal and business lives. Is that good or bad? Everyone has a different opinion now. Wait 10 or 12 years and opinions will be more solidified. In my opinion, we are better off with the government following the letter of the constitution and nothing else.

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Chumley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:18 pm

“This car has a 60 mile all-electric driving range, uses lithium-iron phosphate batteries, and a gasoline range extender that can operate in either series or parallel mode. The company also hopes to sell vehicles in North America by 2011, but at present has no distribution channel.”

…and don’t forget lead, arsenic and all kinds of other nasty chemicals in the cabin to kill you real quick.

Besides, the US Gov isn’t gonna let China into the car market easily by allowing Saturn to go to the slopes…..

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:19 pm

#64 BillR1

Very interesting article by Buffet. Seems to be coming to pass. Not the Import Certificate part, but the decline of the U.S. dollar and the flowing to foreigners of our wealth.

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Koz Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

Mitch #97

“I work in Manufacturing, and I can tell you we (right now) make it all in NA. and other than 1-3 gvmnt contracts..the idea “Made in the USA” means shit shinola to 95% of you..we have the best warranty, and can document life expectancy, we tested the Chinese comp and the quality isn’t 1/2, but guess what…we are looking China..why? to get more business from the cheap bastards that will buy something that is 5 cents less. we could lose a several million in sales to made in U.S. spec sales, spend a few mill developping in China, and still make more money after paying to ship it all…because the profits still come here.”

Chances are the profits will not be coming to your company for long. Unless you have tight, very tight control over the manufacturing the profits will go to the 2-3 other manufacturers over there that knock off your product. Manufacturing here doesn’t protect you completely from this but it doesn’t make it harder and usually takes longer to get the quality up to par. The Chinese are very capable of making quality products but there is a LOT of manufacturing over there and some is good and some is bad. They do like enter markets with 70% or lower prices from the established market level pricing. Often these are “cost reduced” versions of the existing product, which is perfectly within their rights, eventhough I think a lot of times the people are foolish for buying these because the have less value. My issue comes with the total disregard for intellectual property and the lack of concern if not outright support for this from the Chinese government.

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N Riley Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 5:35 pm

#97 Mitch

I am for saving American auto jobs as much as I despise the UAW. I really don’t like the fact of the bail-out and would prefer the auto companies get private investment loans. But, with our situation today, the government is the only recourse the have. And it is a loan, after all.

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Mark Z Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

Since Buffett owns BVD, he could have BYD put BVD cloth seats into the BYD. With such similar names, no one will forget the name of the car.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 6:36 pm

Chris #81 says,
Ofcourse you would be ok with this. You don’t own a Saturn. Speak to Saturn owners and see if they would like their vehicles made in China.

Also, how can you say that you are not a fan of chinese products, when most everything in your home is made in China?

———
True. I really could care less if Saturn failed. I have nothing invested in it.
But that wasn’t my point. I wasn’t aware that China was going to make Saturn cars. I just thought they would get the dealerships, call them BYD, and replace all Saturn cars with theirs.

As for me owning Chinese products, it seems almost impossible now days
not too. However, how do you know what is in my house?
Are you one of those here that are watching and taking notes?

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carcus1 Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:38 pm

Big mystery, even the founder and publisher of EV World doesn’t know what’s up in China.

From EV world:
“The important story here, I believe, is the battery one. Unless BYD and Chery’s efforts are mere window-dressing for propaganda purposes, it seems fairly clear that China has a technological lead over pretty much the rest of the planet. What we don’t know is the durability of their cells, or how much they cost. Are they pushing their packs to the limit and therefore shortening their life, or have they found a way to deep-cycle them without doing serious harm? As with BYD’s efforts, time will tell.”
http://evworld.com/insider.cfm?nextedition=199

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Red HHR Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

Tesla ( Of the last thread ) should buy Saturn.
Then they should rename the dealerships Tesla.
This would be contingent on no bailouts….

New Dream car, the Tesla SKY!

Red HHR

(Quote)
Larry R Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:12 pm

I support SLAVE labor.
Bring in all them Chinese cars that you can!
Screw the American workers.
I think that I will turn into a COMMEY

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

hi Mark Z #112,

“Since Buffett owns BVD, he could have BYD put BVD cloth seats into the BYD. ”

_________________________

I think blue denim covers would be preferred to BVD underware cotton and elastic. But you never know, he’s one financial BMF.

=D~

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Mark Wagner Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:10 pm

If BYD were to keep Saturn operations in the U.S., I would favor it. However if it helped them break in to the U.S. market in sales of cars that are made elsewhere, I would not support it.

I would favor anything that contributes to fuel efficient and electric cars that are made in America. For me it’s all about reducing oil dependancy and increasing American jobs.

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D Lo Says:
February 24th, 2009 at 9:49 pm

BYD should buy Chery Motors, since the new S18 will go twice as far as the Volt: http://businessmirror.com.ph/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6457:chery-unveils-plug-in-hybrid-trumps-gm-volts-range&catid=52:technology.

I agree with Red HHR, Tesla would be an awesome company to take the lead with Saturn going forward. If Tesla plans to bring a 4 door sedan to market, they will need broader distribution. Also Tesla has deals to fit other auto-makers vehicles with the Tesla electric systems. Tesla Sky sounds nice, Plug-in Tesla Vue. How about a Tesla Aura? They all seem feasible to me.

Slingshot Yellow SSR

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Nixon Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 1:05 am

They should do it, and bring the F3DM to the US.

Saturn already had hybrids, and already sells models that originated outside of the US. (opal)

They already are a lower price point brand

It’s a good fit, and will slingshot BYD into the US market.

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tim-the-dreamer Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 5:20 am

Go for it. If you buy-out saturn you also get their state-side manufacturing sites. No need to build new ones. Plus all ya need to do is introduce to said sites your designs and addapt them to US standards and have the AMERICAN employees build them here. We would be supporting AMERICANS manufacturing your products here, and if you can keep the price low enough for the regular folks; we’ll buy it. Just don’t forget good quality is a must.

And don’t forget, we of gmvolt.com trust Lyle and hold him in high regards. If you wish to sell State-side then you must grant him full access to your vehicle because his unbiased view will go a long way with us. Those of us that cannot afford high prices want to take part in the getting off oil revolution, and if your product can fit the bill plus help keep our workers off the unemployment lines with reasonable/fair wages then you are most welcome.

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sudhaman Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 7:33 am

blady fucking bastards. you asshole chinese come to WTO this year and u see all nations voting in favour of the float the yuan and ur currency will rise like anything that we may not buy ur fucking products. and go to hyper inflation.and followed by a depression. how dare u bastards aim to buy a american icon . u chinese bastards were responsible for the americans losing jobs and the subprime morgage crisis. bastards buy a american company and that will be the end o ur fucking nation

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Mitch Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 10:38 am

sudhaman…dude..let it out..if you keep holding back it will eat you like a cancer…

vent man..here we are..someone give him a hug…LOL

Just a humourous response to a OMG Rant. no offense intended

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Richard Duncan Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 11:17 am

Excellent idea, hope it takes place. We like our Saturn, but would like to trade it for an electric.

(Quote)
Reality Check Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 11:37 am

1. BYD America is an American company. It’s based in Elk Grove, Illinois.

2. Given the huge surplus of both dealerships and automobiles in the US right now, GM would have to pay BYD to take Saturn off their hands. I don’t think GM has any money to do that.

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Lawrence Wesson Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

I have long book marked this interesting and informative site as it triggers some deep seated memory. My grandfather started his love affair with cars having been thrown over a fender while crank starting some brass lamp chain driven car for some old lady. He later owned a dealership selling Pontiac, Cadillac and GMC trucks in Texas. So I am well vested in the auto life.

I used to be amazed and transfixed by every new model year and the hype of shape and machinery. I much later realized I did not have a life back then. What child truly does. I grew up and did many things but sadly for many, years do not create maturity .

What amazes me about this Red China idea of buying Saturn are all the people who cheer it on. It is in line with the same vapid concept of the “Free Trade” pyramid scheme that has destroyed the underpinnings of the nation and it’s people.

Such sellouts are in a long conga line reveling in their cheap slave labor crap as the nation state slowly sinks. My father who fought in WW II would label the “dancers” as traitors. I see simpletons who would sell out their birthright as Americans of the Untied States all for another toy, another cheap bauble and trinket. Think the American Indian and Long Island.

Now I realized that I got caught back to my childhood reading this site. I will now read on for sad amusement as the “Titanic Nation State” slowly slips beneath a very cold “ocean” and the happy consumers amidst their cheap labor NEW “citizens” bob about the flotsam of their pathetic dreams. Cheers! L

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Garret B. Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

Should Telsa consider buying Saturn? Could they get the old Saturn Plant in Spring Hill TN as part of the deal?

(Quote)
Reality Check Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

Given the huge surplus of both dealerships and automobiles in the US right now, GM would have to pay anyone to take Saturn off their hands. I don’t think GM has any money to do that.

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carcus1 Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 6:24 pm

#126 Lawrence Wesson ,

“Now I realized that I got caught back to my childhood reading this site. I will now read on for sad amusement as the “Titanic Nation State” slowly slips beneath a very cold “ocean” and the happy consumers amidst their cheap labor NEW “citizens” bob about the flotsam of their pathetic dreams. Cheers! L”
_______________________________________________________
Oh, Higgins, you left out:

Zeus! Apollo! . . . . ATTACK!

Thanks for taking enough time away from the thesaurus to post.

(and how’s Magnum doing?)

(Quote)
Motown Says:
February 25th, 2009 at 8:59 pm

A Chinese company would have to be insane not to jump on this! They are lacking a distribution network, and there is none better than Saturn. I personally don’t want to see the Chinese invasion, but I can’t imagine all of the many Chinese companies trying to break into the US market passing this up. If they do, they are as clueless as the media makes them out to be.

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Ken Grubb Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

Mr. Ni,

BYD should seriously consider the acquisition of Saturn. As the happy owner of two Saturn vehicles (2000 SW2 and 2005 Relay), it’s been my experience that Saturn owners overall are greener than most. I applaud, support and hope that GM will somehow ride out the storm and deliver the Chevy Volt to market in 2010, but I am somewhat perplexed GM didn’t use the Saturn brand to introduce PHEVs.

PHEV technology would have been a natural in the Saturn product lineup had GM not focused so heavily on the SUV market. The failed GM EV-1 was sold through Saturn dealerships–failed, IMHO, because GM and Big Oil didn’t want it.

It is my intent to hold firm and not buy another new vehicle unless it can be plugged in–be it a PHEV or a true EV. Tesla, Phoenix, ZENN, Miles and others look promising, to varying degrees, but there’s still nothing PHEV or EV available from the factory for the mass market in the United States. BYD now has a production vehicle. It just needs to be here.

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Lawrence Wesson Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 11:46 am

Carcus 1

Magnum, is as usual, having a merrie time on the Isle, I should suppose. I’m afraid however that Zeus and Apollo have more than just simply bit the hand that fed them and poor Higgins is, alas, building some celestial bridge with his long departed fellows. Zeus and Apollo are now too with Higgins as who could feed them now?

No need, Carcus 1, for me to delve into the pages of a dusty thesaurus and it is far too early for vino to obtain Veradis as I have a handle or two on that sans vino.

Perhaps writing is not your game? Maybe we should play poker and that way we can remain friends? Being an educated man is such a burden to shoulder but well worth the toil as it keeps my clothes most clean but however, in need for whiskey to regulate the pain.

Ah, Chopin is playing on the main deck now. Have to go back to writing Big Nose Kate, oh and work.

Regards! Doc

PS My observations remains pat on the suicidal nation less sellouts that greet the Red Chinese buyout of Saturn as some kind of wondrous, head spinning win win situation. While England is no more, so shall the US join the ranks of doomed nations that are also, no more. The dust bin of history is pretty full. But by Jove, we will have electric cars sometime and that is what our existence is all about, is it not?

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Bob Barker Says:
February 27th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

quote:hate car dealers in general, and I hate car salesman in particular. Why? Haggling. Every car salesman* (*I have a broad brush, and I’m not afraid to use it) has only one thing on their beady little mind when I walk in – will this sale send them to Las Vegas, Burmuda, or Paris? Which makes them all real sumbitches in my book. All they see is a wallet to be sucked dry. Do they care about you – not one microscopic bit. But I have to deal with them. Thanks, Jim from PA for the good tip on the GM card. Take that, you thieving car-tards.

Funny, what really goes on in a salesman’s mind is “Is this guy going to be an assh@le?” If you actually knew anything about what you are talking about and realized what your horse-trading mentality actually does to your trade-in value down the road you would educate yourself and stop being such a jerk. Not all salesmen are thieves and liars nor do they enjoy dealing with liars.

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carcus1 Says:
February 28th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

#132 Lawrence Wesson,

Sorry to hear about Higgins and “the boys”, but it’s comforting to know Magnum can peer up at the night sky through the smoke of his stogie and catch a glimpse of his departed mates.

Veratis? Vino? I don’t know about all that. Down here they say “whiskey don’t make liars, it just makes fools”. That’s something I can drink to. I keep my painkiller in a brown jug labeled XXX.

You’ve got a deck too? Mine’s made out of PTP (that’s pressure treated pine). Gives some extra space to my single wide and it’s nice to sit out on it at night while I’m pickin’ some skynard.

Don’t work too hard Doc.

P.S. Speaking of big nose Kate, how well do you Know her?

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carcus1 Says:
February 28th, 2009 at 10:39 pm

#132 Lawrence Wesson,

P.S. to your P.S.

Empire building and slave (cheap) labor have always gone hand in hand. Once it starts to fall apart, watch out for high inflation and the foreign investment to follow.

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Rob in San Francisco Says:
March 1st, 2009 at 10:48 am

I purchased two Saturn SL1 vehicles specifically because they were made in America with a good strong Union contract and a lot of input from the workers. They also happen to be very good cars. To think that Saturn could go from that, to the absolute bottom of the barrel of human rights and labor conditions (China) makes me feel sad and disappointed. I don’t even buy Chinese shoes and that I can tell you is a tall order considering how many so called “proud Americans” readilly funnel US dollars through places like Wal Mart down the drain and into the pockets of the totalitarian, orwellian Chinese. Shame on us.

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PJK Says:
March 1st, 2009 at 11:31 am

Not a good idea to sell Saturn to the Chinese Government.

At a time when we need jobs.. we don’t need to be supporting foreign government run/subsidized companies. Selling Saturn will only be giving into unfair trade.

We need to fight unfair trade not sell out to it.

Hyundai is a government run company… GM is a for profit company.
I don’t call this competition … I call it dumping products on the stupid Americans and putting Americans unfairly out of work while sucking billions out of the US market.

Every Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Nissan etc on the road represents a lost American job… they know that … that’s why they keep our products out of THEIR CLOSED MARKETS!

If it was so good that they build plants here … there would be Ford and GM plants in their country… which they would never let happen

Have we lost enough jobs to start fighting for FAIR TRADE?
The Japanese keep us out of their markets while sucking billions out of ours.. the Chinese currency is 50% or more undervalued keeping there prices artificially low. The EC keeps our industry out of their markets.

When are we going to fight back?

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mcm Says:
March 2nd, 2009 at 1:52 am

.

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Caroll Says:
March 6th, 2009 at 8:39 am

I have a Saturn SL and love the car. I wouldn’t care if BYD purchassed Saturn as long as they keep building cars in the USA. Maybe that could be part of the deal as I think GM and the government have something to say about the deal. Build the FM3 or whatever their EV is in the Saturn SL plant.

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Larry Says:
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:37 am

I think the affordable electric auto will have to be driven by an offshore company. The petroleum industry will call in a lot of markers if they see electric auto as a threat.The reality is if the oil infrastructure were to collapse so would our economy. BYD would be better served build their distribution from the ground up or buy another offshore auto like Mitsubishi to keep from getting tied up North American politics.
That said, the electrification of the auto will change the world. I hope Ford, Chrysler and GM can figure that out. If not they will no longer exist.

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Realist Says:
September 20th, 2009 at 5:28 pm

LOL!
Electric cars are where it’s at, regardless of your politics. Hate Chinese products?! You can’t do without them Zach and gsnead57, unless you live under a very unfurnished rock. China has the low labor cost and we in the U.S. are becoming more and more like them. Fight the Chinese economically? Only if we start paying our workers what they’re paying theirs. It’s happening now and unless you’re blind, it’s happening to you, your friends and your families.
Enjoy the few benefits that will bring. Cheaper cars is one of them.

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Is BYD Auto Considering Purchasing Saturn? Tell Them What You Think

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