AND 
Auto Industry Needs Nearly $100 Billion to Survive: Should They Get it?
The Detroit Free Press added up all of the loans requested and so far given to the auto industry.
The total sum requested or received by GM and Chrysler so far is $39 billion. The retooling loans, still not dispersed another $25 billion, and there is a request for $25.5 billion from suppliers. Adding in other money the reporter came up with $97.4 billion.
This is quite possibly not the end either. After all Ford has yet to ask for money, and if car sales plunge further, more money will be needed.
Alternatively GM and Chrysler say finacing their bankruptcies would cost the government $125 billion.
President Obama’s Press secretary warned there have to be limits to aid. Robert Gibbs said “The president understands that whether it’s financial stability, whether it’s banks and the lending system, whether it’s the auto companies, there can’t be a bottomless pit to this, there’s just not the resources to deal with it.”
The US government has so far given $700 billion to the financial sector and put a $787 billion stimulus package into effect.
Republican Senator Bob Corker who has emerged as a prominent voice in the auto bailout process said “the country as a whole has great concerns about the economy, but people are questioning where does government involvement end.” Corker also reminded us that economist Mark Zandi predicted in December that the total cost of the industry bailout would be $75 to $125 billion, a value the auto CEOs dismissed at the time.
GM’s says it needs $2 billion by the end of March, another $2.6 billion in April, another $4.5 billion by 2010 and a $7.5-billion line of credit for 2011 in case the market doesn’t recover.
The President’s Task Force on Autos led by Timothy Geithner is planning to meet later this week to review GM and Chrysler’s plans.
Yes we want our Volts, and yes we must get this country off of oil, but at what cost? Are there any alternatives?
Source (Detroit News)
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182 Responses to “Auto Industry Needs Nearly $100 Billion to Survive: Should They Get it?”
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:28 am
yeah #1!!!!!!!!
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:42 am
Yes we want our Volts, and yes we must get this country off of oil, but at what cost?
Converting from Gas to electricity is a one time charge (pun intended) to foreign exchange that will be recouped over time from the reduction in oil imports. It’s that simple.
Fixing potholes in the road, while important, will do nothing to help the foreign debt position.
Besides, I want my Opel/Vauxhall Ampera.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:46 am
@boarder –> you’re a dope.
I really want an electric parked in my garage. Yesterday! However, these large, poorly-managed dinosaurs need to be allowed to fail, so that capitalism can run its course.
The startups that will spring-up in the place of the Big 3, will be much more capable of dealing with current market conditions. (But these innovators will never get off the ground, while the Big 3 are on the dole.)
(I am number 7xxx on the list, so please don’t view this as an anti-GM comment.)
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Corker is not the voice of reason, he is the voice of the Nissan plant in Tennessee.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Amen Herkimer!
If I run my business poorly I fail. Let them die. There are many who can fill the gap for our EV auto needs and wants.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:05 am
I voted maybe with certain conditions, The problem is that the employees of the auto industry and all its suppliers will stop buying what the rest of us produce. And the result will be massive lay offs in nearly all industries. Let me give you an example of an industry which most would not associate with the auto industry. ” How much paper do you think the auto companys and their suppliers buy in a year?” Maybe a few lay offs in that industry also.
Think I will give static something to ponder. How about naming some non government industries that will not be effected. I chose you because you seem to have a very respected and logical mind, not to pick on you.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:10 am
To me it’s a question of national priorities. I view getting off oil as a national defense expense. But we are not spending the money from the defense budget. I vote we pull troops from Iraq, shift resources into making electric cars.
But, we simply are pulling funds from a giant omnibus pot which is generating HUGE debt. That is stupid, and when Tesla can develop a vehicle for $100m., why in the hell should we give GM 32 billion to produce the Volt?
I have multiple family members that do blue collar and white collar jobs who have been laid off–so why don’t they get bailed out too. Screw Obama’s pick-and-choose who gets to eat plan.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:26 am
#4 SteveK
Corker is not the voice of reason, he is the voice of the Nissan plant in Tennessee.
—————————————————————————–
Did you forget to mention the GM plant in Spring Hill, TN (it was a Saturn plant)?
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:30 am
I’d like to know, what type of “Miracle-Grow” are they using on their money tree? I can’t seem to get mine to sprout…
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:38 am
#8 SteveK Says: “Corker is not the voice of reason, he is the voice of the Nissan plant in Tennessee.”
————————————————————————————–
Good point. I believe VW is also setting up shop in Tennessee.
Politicians words often contradict their actions, so their voice irrelevant. Actions speak louder than words.
If I remember correctly, Corker was the one that moved the goal line the last time they were negotiating with the UAW. If you know anything about these kinds of negotiations, moving the goal line is a sure fire way to get someone to walk away from the table. So Corker did something that he knew would make the negotiations fail, and then blamed the UAW when they walked.
For most politicians, their first priority is getting re-elected. They need lots of TV commercials during the campaign to help secure the outcome of the election. TV commercials cost a lot of money, so they need lots of big campaign contributions to buy these commercials. I’ll bet a lot of Corker’s campaign contributions came from foreign based auto makers.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:51 am
#
Jeff Says:@8
“Did you forget to mention the GM plant in Spring Hill, TN (it was a Saturn plant)?”
**********************************************************************************
Crocker wants GM to fail, and that includes Saturn, so his state can benefit with his foreign car manufacturers. All he’s doing is in the name of self interest. He couldn’t care less about the rest of the country if GM were to liquidate.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
“The Detroit Free Press added up all of the loans requested and so far given to the auto industry.
The total sum requested or received by GM and Chrysler so far is $39 billion. The retooling loans, still not dispersed another $25 billion, and there is a request for $25.5 billion from suppliers. Adding in other money the reporter came up with $97.4 billion.”
============================
While not the truest definition of the theme of the article, the gov’t also converted GMAC to a bank holding (despite not qualifying), and thereby gave them the ability to sell up to $17.5 billion in government-backed debt. GMAC went from only being able to give out cars to people with a 770+ scores (top 10%), all the way down to 621 scores (top 85%).
The bigger problem is this 100 billion plus payout may not even get the companies much past March…so where does it end, where do you draw the line in the sand if you have come this far.
It is a very tricky spot for a new administration/president, he can prop it up and maybe have egg on his face later when he is forced to turn off the tap, or he can decide radical change is needed now, and be forced to jump into the fire right away.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Bankruptcy is the only way to manage the Unions.
So let them fail…no more money.
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February 19th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Lets consider what “with certain provisions” might include.
1. Instead of a plan to solve the bond holder problem, bankruptcy.
2. Instead of a plan to solve the UAW legacy costs, bankruptcy.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Mr. President, we will kill the jobs of a Mzillion people if you don’t pay us the sum of…
One Hundred Bzillion Dollars….
We have that on tape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKHSAE1gIs&feature=related
NEVER PAY EXTORTION!!!!!!!!!!!
If you tax production, you get LESS production.
If you reward failure, you get MORE failure.
What is it exactly that these “progressive” morons don’t understand?
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:06 am
#122 Jim in PA Said:
February 16th, 2009 at 12:11 am
“Today I saw with my own eyes that GM is cashing out. Where, you ask? Why, at the Pittsburgh Auto Show. If you think GM sees EREV as the future of the company, then you were not at the Pittsburgh Convention Center this weekend. No EREV concepts. No Volt. No nothing. Just 50% trucks and SUVs…”
==================================
I told you the other day it was because Pittsburgh auto show, er,well…sucks, and that the Volt and all the rest of the twirlly stuff is in Toronto this week, but having now been there, I have taken photographic proof that GM is still ‘working it’
I would also like to ask Lyle to consider adding my picture to the new Volt gallery, because I think it really tells a story….I may also submit it for consideration for a Pulitzer.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4914/voltautoeq3.jpg
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:13 am
I voted maybe with certain conditions.
I wonder if we let them fail and all those jobs disappear, do we drop into a depression? That is my only concern. I don’t like loaning all this money either. I wonder when it will stop.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Statik #16.
Great picture! It has my vote for a Pulitzer prize.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Instead of a plan to retain management, bankruptcy.
Instead of a plan to retain Pontiac, bankruptcy.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:23 am
We are going to need to build a vast number of EVs over the next few year. Yes we will have to keep them in business to do that. But no more gas guzzlers or else its money down the drain.
Off topic I know but what happened with the Tesla trial report Kyle? The one you were hopefully going to post after you were loaned a Tesla for the weekend. Did I miss it?
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:23 am
They must reorganize to have any possibility of success going forward.
They will still need help.
The real problem is the dirty little deal of government and labor cooperating together against capital.
The Reds have taken power.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Statik’s picture at #16,
Another visual representation to help us understand the value of $100 billion.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:24 am
Why are we bailing out all these old people with Social Security? I think we should let them fail.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:30 am
It was really good there for a while, to bad its all gotta go….
Let it all collapse
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:30 am
#9 Adam said
I’d like to know, what type of “Miracle-Grow” are they using on their money tree? I can’t seem to get mine to sprout…
————————————————-
Gee, I have been having that same problem…..
Thanks for a very funny post
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:36 am
#16 Statik
Re:autoshow
Also found out some random tidbits from the suits/execs mulling around the show:
On the Mitsu i-Miev:
I talked to a Mitsu HQ stuffed shirt and he said they were trying to get 2,000 of them into Canada by the end of 2010…which is odd, because I mentioned to him that was same target as the US, and he said yes.
On the Honda Insight.
They said that some of the cars are at the docks, and that Canada is getting 10,000 of the 100K alotted for NA, and that distribution is going strictly based on the volume of the dealership.
On the Honda Insight:
Pricing is STILL not released for Canada, said it was expected between 22-25K. Then, just off the cuffs says to me, “the pricing was released in the US, and it is on the website for $19,000″…which was/is news to me. Could be just random autoshow talk, but the guy did wear a suit…lol. (I can’t find that info on the site…or anywhere else)
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:39 am
#17 Rashiid Amul says “I wonder if we let them fail and all those jobs disappear, do we drop into a depression? That is my only concern.”
———————————————–
Economists argue that the number of jobs in the US depends primarily on the number of cars sold in the US. That is, a shift from GM to Ford hurts GM workers and helps Ford workers, but on balance the number of jobs is about the same. If the shift is from GM to Honda, then Canadian, Mexican, and US jobs are traded for what still remains mostly US jobs, but still the total number of jobs remains about the same. A relevant point is that the corporation may be headquartered in one place or another, but most of the jobs are in assembly plants, dealers, and service facilities, which tend to be close to the point of sale.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:44 am
#26 Statik
Could be just random autoshow talk, but the guy did wear a suit…lol. (I can’t find that info on the site…or anywhere else)
============
But was he wearing a pink tie?
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I thought this might be worth reading. I get these emails from Saturn because I signed up on their website during a car search. It seems that the Saturn brand would be happy marketing other cars. This is only a portion of their email…
“… Today, we confirmed that Saturn and GM would further investigate one of those options: a spin-off of an independent Saturn Distribution Corporation.
The Saturn Distribution Corporation already exists as an indirect subsidiary of GM. It’s the entity with which our retailers currently have their franchise agreement. An independent Saturn would still have its great retailers, and it would continue to source current products from GM through 2011. If successful, SDC at that point would source products from other manufacturers.
The goal—from a product perspective—would be to find future vehicles that match the Saturn Brand: fuel-efficient, safe, reliable and affordable. From a retailing perspective, we would build on our core strength of unmatched customer service. The same hassle-free experience that is a hallmark of the brand could be taken to even higher levels…”
Tesla would be foolish not to see this chance to get his cars in the mass market around 2011-2012, with Saturn dealerships already across the country. This also is good news for any other start up electric car company.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:58 am
#26, statik, talking to “a suit” from Honda:
“Then, just off the cuffs says to me, “the pricing [on the Insight] was released in the US, and it is on the website for $19,000″”
Good job, Honda.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:00 am
GM’s projections for their market share are nuts. They talk about how if they go CH11 their sales will go down. Makes sense. But they predict if they stay out of CH11 their % of the US market will only have dropped to 20% by 2014. I believe 20% was their January share.
News flash… you are going to be way down in share even if you don’t go CH11. There is so much CH11 talk right now that much of the effects are going to be seen regardless.
And whike we are at it, even if they stay out of CH11/CH7 most of the jobs and suppliers and dealers will be gone regardless.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Who took this picture of my stash in the basement?!?!?!? The guards dogs are useless…
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Statik (#12) says:
“It is a very tricky spot for a new administration/president, he can prop it up and maybe have egg on his face later when he is forced to turn off the tap, or he can decide radical change is needed now, and be forced to jump into the fire right away.”
Hey Statik… theft is theft even for the “right” reasons. Forcing someone (We, the People…) into debt without our express permission is an unconscionable act! Then again, so is Statist (Socialist) redistribution punishing the productive.
The fact is that Barry is a politician. Politicians (most are lawyers) lack personal courage and convictions because they are trained to “represent” (pretend to be) others. It’s like a woman who has changed her hair color so often to make her “appearance” better, she no longer knows what her TRUE hair color actually is.
Politicians are NOT statesmen!
A politician (like a lawyer) is selected to represent others. He is NOT selected to for his own personal convictions. He is a leaf that blows in the political winds. He is a chameleon that changes his spots to meet his own political ambitions. His only allegiance is to those who finance his campaigns and those who will further his political status. This is why the founders HATED career politicians and thought that only landowners should hold office and that office should be an unpaid SHORT-TERM service to the country so political ties would NOT be forged. A politician’s only true conviction is to himself. Now you understand why politicians like Obama can say one thing during the campaign and do another when in office and now you know why they ultimately become HATED.
A Statesman is selected BECAUSE his personal convictions are the same as those who elected him. He has courage and is willing to sacrifice his office, his money, his power and even his life for his personal convictions which are the same as We, the People who elected him. Our founders were Statesmen. There are FEW true statesmen today. (I can only think of one… Dr. Paul)
Most politicians currently in office SHOULD be convicted of malfeasance and Treason then executed because they ignore their Oath of Office to the Constitution for personal gain & power. Porkzilla and auto corporate welfare are just the latest expamples of federal over reach.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malfeasance_in_office
Read the 9th & 10th Amendments to the Constitution and form you own opinion.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:07 am
One other thought. This is from my favorite former President Teddy Roosevelt. The one thing he is known for in monopoly busting. You look at GM, Ford, Chrysler and what are they? Three very large monopolies types. You could make an argument that if those three were 5-6 smaller companies, that this downturn would of only piocked off the weakest link or two. It shows the inherent dangerous when companies like this get so large and employee such a huge % of the market when they go down, they take everything with them.
A fresh new Saturn, detached from the slow plodding nature of a GM might actually be able to thrive with the fuel change. To be honest, once you remove the engine development anyone could go from custom to production. As an example, look at the custom bike guys like OCC. Good custom bikes, brought demand and led to them designing and making production bikes.
That I guess is the core argument against propping up GM or Chrysler. The natural business cycle tells you they are ripe for replacement by a hungry USA car designer. Instead of keeping GM as is break them down to the individual brands and see if they can exist against Toyota and Honda. If they don’t, well, then they don’t and they die off or are reinvented by new leadership. I will not this will work but seems better than pumping money into a failing company hoping they change.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:13 am
#33, Go tell it on the mountain! The last 10 or so Congresses and the last 2 Presidents let this happen to our country do to bad leadership and bill writing. Nice to know that beyond the fact in 10 years we have social security and medicaid bills the government can’t pay for but now after that we have debt that will cripple future generations.
At least next-gen engineering and design are bringing energy advances… finally.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Notice that the Dems never talk about union wages or concessions.
They’re suddenly real patriotic about the need for American automakers. Funny they never mention that 60% to 100% of the parts for “American” cars come from elesehwere. come from elsewhere. The only ones they seem to be saving are the union autoworkers – the very people who have destroyed the industry.
This would be amusing if it weren’t our country we’re talking about.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Adrian (#35)
“At least next-gen engineering and design are bringing energy advances… finally.”
I agree. Too bad that US Gov’t is wasting $Trillions on the military-industrial complex (empire) and socialist programs while debasing our currency so badly that nobody will be able to afford the next-gen advances. At least China and some middle-east nations (who exported their goods for US money/debt) will enjoy these new technologies while the US lowers it’s standard of living and ends it’s empire while it pays it’s debts.
Socialism/Statism always lowers the standard of living for its citizens because the central planners run out of other people’s money. The productive simply move offshore or just stop producing and the consumers run out of jobs and can no longer buy anything.
If you punish (tax & redistribute or regulate) production, you get LESS production.
When there is less production EVERYBODY suffers.
What is it exactly that those “progressive” morons don’t understand?
Buy we have to save jobs!!! Yep, we’ll keep the jobs for a little while longer BUT we’re making the resulting depression much deeper and recovery much longer.
(The pain, the pain. Can I have another shot of heroin…)
Politics of FEAR kills all reason. So much for “hope” and “change”.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I voted absolutely no. The cost to us and future generations is too great. The Volt does not equal our only hope for electric vehicles. GM is just one of many companies developing EVs. We will get our EVs one way or another and probably much cheaper.
We should not be picking and choosing which companies to support with taxpayer money. A free market will settle everything if you just let it. Many large companies have gone bankrupt and the assets have been purchased by smaller groups that can run the business at a fraction of the original costs. (I worked for a company that did this and they are now profitable). Let the marketplace work!
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:58 am
We should just let all of America fail. Then we can go Chapter 11 and all will be magically fixed and beautiful. Besides, the country has been mismanaged for decades, so we deserve it! Clearly our country is a wretched old dinosaur and if we let it die, many smaller, leaner and meaner countries could then be allowed to spring up and fill it’s place. Failing that, we could just be run by foreign governments that are better at it than we are.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:58 am
#36 Kent says, “60% to 100% of parts for American cars come from elseware.”
My 2008 Grand Caravan has US/Canadian parts content; 73%.
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February 19th, 2009 at 10:59 am
#27–Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, 70% of the value of an automobile is the parts. And Detroit buys 80% of the US made parts. The Japanese manufacturers buy Japanese parts. That seems to me to be a massive job transfer to Japan.
Also, again correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand most R&D is done in the country of origin. Again that seems to be a massive job transfer to Japan. I understand they could use the jobs right about now.
That said, 100 billion is a lot of money. I do think the government had a lot to do with getting us into this. They let the southern states give the foreign manufacturers massive tax breaks to set up shop here. And then they let them use a non-union workforce, giving them a continual competitive advantage. (Work rules that rendered Detroit unable to copy Japan’s lean manufacturing techniques until very recently, higher wages, etc.) I realize it’s unavoidable given our system of government, but it seems not only unfair, but counter-productive to me. But at this point, it might be too late to fix it.
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:24 am
#38–For the free market to work, you need to have a free market to begin with. If the government creates a competitive disadvantage, and allows the company with that artificial disadvantage to fail, that’s government intervention in the market place.
Let’s look at GM’s situation–Unions are a government sponsored monopoly that the Japanese don’t have to deal with.
They have higher wages. While GM’s huge head start probably could handled the legacy benefits as they were, they continued to have to pay higher wages, and increase their legacy costs. That ate up R&D money, and money that could have gone into the quality of the cars. That’s not the free market at work. That’s a government created inequality.
Then, when they started to lose market share, state franchise rules made it prohibitive to cut brands, and union rules made it prohibitive to close factories. Again, this is not the free market at work. This is government created inflexibility.
Admittedly, the Japanese came in with a superior manufacturing system. Under a free market system, GM would able to copy that. Just like the Japanese copied numerous American innovations. But when GM tried to, the unions fought them every step of the way. Again, an invervention in the free market.
I’m not saying that GM’s management hasn’t made mistakes. They have. But they have also been operating under government created handcuffs. And, by the way, those same handcuffs make it a lot harder for them to deal with things like cafe standards.
Yes. Their massive debt is their major problem at the moment. But to blame the bond holders ignores the reasons why they are in so much debt. Basically, letting them fail means that the US government chose, wittingly or unwittingly, to give our auto manufacturing sector to the foreign auto manufacturers. It hasn’t been one administration, and it’s taken decades. But that’s where we are today.
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
To all you green hounds that keep spouting off on the primary reason to go green it to get off foreign oil. Where do you think we are going to get the materials to make out batteries? Moving from dependence one foreign product to another. Gee, didn’t think of that did you?
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
This is a difficult situation. You can say, let Detroit die, as the Japanese can fill in the void since they are already manufacturing cars in the US.
Sure, Japanese-branded cars are assembled in North America, but unfortunately the good-paying jobs designing and engineering the cars aren’t necessarily in North America. America is turning into an country of unskilled labourers who cannot afford the products they manufacture, like China of 30 years ago. Americans are fooling themselves if they think that this system is sustainable. America can only generate wealth by designing, manufacturing, and exporting its own products. As it stands right now, to keep it’s standard of living up, America is living on credit–both private individuals with credit cards, and the country as a whole… borrowing money from China (to buy it’s cheaper products) to artifically inflate the American standard of living. Only fools think that you can live on maxed out credit cards forever with no repercussions.
Unfortunately, America has lost its sense of pride and perhaps the Bush administration has excaberated the situation with all the money wasted on wars, etc. Americans seem pissed off and are rebelling by not buying American, but unfortunately they are only shooting themselves in the foot. A co-worker bought a Toyota Sienna instead of a Chevy Uplander recently because she pulled some statistics out of a hat saying that GM is laying off 45,000 workers and is appalled by it… unfortunately her decision will make only more GM workers get laid off. It’s chicken-and-egg.
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Laura (#42)
Two wrongs don’t make a right and neither do two lefts.
Bottom Line”
Those politicians who are ignoring their OATH to the Constitution are guilty of High Treason!
They caused this problem and you’re saying that we should let them “fix” it with MORE debt and MORE central planning.
Here’s the deal…
The Statists WILL Read and Obey the Constitution or this nation’s fiat currency and economy will collapses resulting in a Revolution to purge this land of all statist oligarchy tyrants! The blood in our streets will make Iraq look like the garden of Eden in comparison. The Statists will NOT win in THIS civil war.
Watch and learn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ7LM3iyNg
The Statists were warned. They broke their promise. WE HAVE A PROBLEM!
Lawmakers in 20 states (and growing) move to reclaim sovereignty
Obama’s deficit-spending “stimulus” seen as last straw:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=88218
Can succession be far behind?
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:36 am
missed the edit window…
To all you green hounds that keep spouting off on the primary reason to go green is to get off foreign oil. Where do you think we are going to get the materials to make our batteries? Moving from dependence on one foreign product to another. Gee, didn’t think of that did you?
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:38 am
@statik 16
“my picture to the new Volt gallery,”
OTFLMAO….
Dude, that was good morning wakeup chuckle.
The relection pattern on the ground should be their new logo.
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:42 am
I might have to give up “Optimism” for Lent.
Sigh.
Tag
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Alas, this is like the death watch over an old and dear friend.
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Here’s an interesting quote regarding the corporate welfare “bailouts”:
“The one thing you need to know for sure, any company that is getting government money, don’t be a shareholder. Because they are never going to make a profit. They are now basically like government entities, like government departments. They are going to be run in perpetual losses to benefit the employees of the companies. But the owners of the companies, the people who think they own the companies are never going to get anything.”
Peter Shiff
2/18/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h0s2TR3QGM
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:59 am
@GMguy 43 & 46
“Where do you think we are going to get the materials to make out batteries?”
After many years of getting screwed by big oil OPEC, maybe we want to get screwed by someone else for a change. What’s wrong with a little variety and competition? You’re more than welcome to stay in the hancuffs of OPEC.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
@noel park 49
I knew you’d come back.
)
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Globalization has been good for everyone but the U.S. We police the world and everyone benefits…except us. Our idiot in-law to the north is pulling out of Afghanistan maybe we should pull out of Canada, close that F body plant and bring it here to the states and create American jobs. I post on European auto forums and about 99 percent think that GM’s Euro branches (Vauxhall, Opel, ETC; )could do much better without GM. Yeah that worked great for the British auto industry, you see what happened when they were running things. How about a year of withdrawal from the world, a little protectionism, let’s see how the Japanese and Germans do without importing their cars here, I’m sure the Chinese and Indians will buy them. GM could go bankrupt and restructure, close down all assets abroad and bring the jobs here to a new company with well paid non-union employees that build variations of the Voltec platform. A little self sufficiency never hurt anyone; let’s see what happens when we have to start making pot holders and TVs again instead of importing them from China and Japan, let’s see what happens to the emerging markets then. I would be willing to bet the U.S. automakers could make it on their own no problem and without government cheese with a little regulatory control on imports.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
* Tim #45-off topic(is there any other kind?)- enjoyed the irony of your comment, ” The blood in our streets will make Iraq look like the garden of Eden in comparison.” …
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Who’s going to bailout the bailout-ers?
Our country does not have the money we are using for these bailouts. Its coming from China. Wouldn’t it make more sense just to buy cars from China directly and cut out the middlemen? Either way China is getting our money.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Jackflash (#53)
From your mouth to God’s (or the tin cup Statist politicians who think they are God) ear.
All we need is a level playing field, sound money, freedom, less expensive gov’t (and lower taxes) and for the US to put the same restrictions on incoming goods that the rest of the world places on our exports.
To that end we need representatives who have the honor to obey their oath to the Constitution and a Judiciary with the honor to apply the Constitution instead of “interpreting” it for their own political agenda and the courage to hold politicians accountable to their oath to the Constitution.
Unfortunately, power corrupts and that’s why we have the 1st. and 2nd Amendments.
Using the 1st can be fun. I’m deathly afraid that we may have to use the 2nd and they know this so prepare for step by step confiscation. It’s already begun:
Stimulus Bill Gun Control Provisions
http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=178620&Messages=5
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
#52 CaptJackSparrow:
Oh yeah, I’m here. I was just sort of apologizing for not participating as much as I have in the past. I am still reading all of the posts, and your excellent comments. It’s just that I find the whole thing so depressing that I can’t get motivated to comment on the niceties of Volt technology and so on. And I feel like criticizing the “management” of GM is sort of beating a dead horse.
I guess I have to put in with Tagamet at #48.
Nice comment at #51 BTW.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
#43 GMguy Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 11:28 am
To all you green hounds that keep spouting off on the primary reason to go green it to get off foreign oil. Where do you think we are going to get the materials to make out batteries? Moving from dependence one foreign product to another. Gee, didn’t think of that did you?
——————-
You’re about 5 or 8 threads behind. Go read the Bolivia Lithium threads. I dont have the time to type all the counters to your above statment.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
#46 GMguy – You didn’t need to repost – you were wrong the first time. We will need lithium at first, but unlike oil, we can reuse / recycle old lithium from batteries. You absolutely cannot reuse / recycle used gasoline.
BTW, I’m not a greenie-weenie like some here – I just don’t like paying people for oil who want to cut my head off because 1) I like pork. 2) I think beards look funny. 3) I can’t figure out which way Mecca is, and I don’t really care to know.
Nice try at trolling though – I have to respect that. You’ll get better at it – just make sure your facts are right first, then twist and distort your logic like taffy in a pulling machine. You’ll be ticking off people in no time.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
#44 Gary
I agree with this. I just worry about how much money it’s going to cost at this point.
That said, at the very least, since our President has so much support in certain areas–the least he could do is ask Americans to buy American cars. Of course, I’m sure the foreign governments would protest…
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
D (#54)
Iraq is just a training exercise. Here’s another “civil unrest” training exercise:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SOhl9EPaTo
There are many other examples.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
#44 Gary
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I actually think the anti-american self-hate got bad enough for it to almost be “cool” to buy/wear/use/sell non-american products.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I see no scenario where the current US government will not give them loans. All we can hope for is that they will be paid back, and have strict provisions.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Noel park@59
I went into that stealth mode for a while – and largely for the same reasons. Some days I admittedly risk missing something when the VOLT gets lost in the politics.
Be well,
Tag
Spam sales are up!
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
While I don’t agree with Tim all that often, his comment at #37, “Too bad that US Gov’t is wasting $Trillions on the military-industrial complex (empire)…” is God’s truth.
The amount spent each year on weapons systems alone, designed to counter no known, let alone credible, threat, makes this proposed bailout of the auto industry pale by comparison. Those are all make work projects, IMHO. At least the Big 2.4 make something relatively useful.
We had the spectacle recently of one of our local Democratic Representatives writing a letter to the local paper, pleading for her constituents to support funding of the F22 fighter program, to “save jobs” in her district.. This is every bit as much a “bailout” of the MIC as is being touted for the Big 2.4. Yet somehow, it all seems to pass unnoticed.
So I’m no more of a fan of this auto industry “bailout” than anyone, but it does need to be placed in context with many other similar programs the “US Gov’t” has quietly supported for years. Farm subsidies, anyone? And it goes on forever, seemingly no matter who controls the Whire House or the Congress.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
GM & Chrysler going Chapter 11 = Chapter 7 with in months. Chapter 7 means no more GM and Chrysler. No more GM and Chrysler means no more parts suppliers. No more parts suppliers means Ford goes Chapter 11, then Chapter 7. No more American auto industry.
Sure foreign companies will continue to assemble things here for a time, but without domestic part suppliers it just gets easier to import the whole car from places with lower wages and no threat of unions. Yeah there’ll be Tesla, Fisker and a hand full of other wannabes but they have no way of filling the void and will remain niche as long as they can before they too go belly up.
So the question is, does America really need industry? Should we just let people over seas build everything and we just consume it? Can’t we just trade manufacturing jobs for retail jobs? Does industry matter at all? I think it does, but that is the real question before us now. China thinks it’s a valuable thing, so does Japan, Germany, Korea and Taiwan to name a few. A quick survey of the countries around the world without strong manufacturing shows that you either live in squaller or you have high taxes to pay the government to supply the needed jobs. I think those options suck. I wish Americans still valued industry. Those that fought in WWII must be horrified with how things have turned out.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
You know, after reading many posts about the Govt and the Union, I highly doubt anything GM does will ever get rid of the Union. I highly believe, whether GM opts for one of the Bankruptcy options, the Govt will most likely make sure that the Unions will still have some type of stranglehold existance on GM. Ultimately the “Freshest Restart” is to fold and spawn a new name/era for themselves.
Just my trailer park thought…..
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Let Chrysler die and GM/Ford eat up the remaining market share. Chrysler has no long term viability with just a new Ram pickup. Their EV vehicles are total vaporware and good ol’ BS.
Keep GM alive, if GM goes so do all domestic auto makers.
DO NOT SPEND billions more on Chrysler!
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
#52 CaptJackSparrow:
See what you started, LOL?
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
#63 Stew…. Hmm I dunno. Seems a bit fishy to me. Like they are trying to get deposits so they can sit on the cash? Just my gut feeling. No mention of them guaranteeing anything by me giving them my money.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Chrysler is pretty much out of the game at this point. Ford is strong. GM is weak.
If we do nothing, then Ford thrives. If we bail out GM then Ford eats scraps. Ford will then need TARP.
______________________________
We must give TARP to the big 3 AND several dozen smaller start up manufactures based on the size of their current labor force (as of 02/19/09). Or, we need to TOTALLY STOP interfering.
The best way to both provide for all American manufactures AND to stimulate the economy is an instant rebate system based on average mpg.
$50,000,000,000 TARP / $4600 rebate per vehicle = 11,000,000 rebate offers
28=$2800
33=$3300
45=$4500
90=$9000
Am I right or am I crazy?
BTW: I voted “no” and I changed my profile “offered deposit” amount to zero. TARP already gave them the $5000 I was going to deposit up front.
=D~
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
@ #66 Noel
Case in point, my friend worked at a company that was developing a joystic for a tank. I forget how many millions of dollars he told me the Army was paying just for that joystick. He finally quit because he couldnt live w/the fact the things he was working on were used to kill others.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
#71 K-dawg
Lol, I agree 100%. That guy couldn’t sound more like a car salesman if he tried. My post was meant to be tounge-in-cheek.
Stew
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Dave K (#72) said:
“Am I right or am I crazy?”
You’re crazy. Let’s put it this way,
Would you rather use a public toilet or a private toilet?
Gov’t can’t even run a toilet!
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
@GMguy 43 & 46
“Where do you think we are going to get the materials to make out batteries?”
I’m with Capt Jack… You are clueless. Keep buying your oil from the Mid-East sandbox. OPEC can crush our country with one decision. For our safety, I’d rather be able to crush them by turning off their access to Food. That would make them think twice before launching a religious war against America. Gladly I would buy from a friendly country and vice versa.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Tim #61, I was being smart -alecky, snarky. sorry. Garden of Eden.was located in Iraq, perhaps.
Regarding the 100 billion. Give them, GM and Ford, the bucks, but insist that all production for the US market be located in the US, and limited to building the EREV exclusively, evolving toward the pure EV as technology permits. Time for America to go cold turkey, let’s end our addiction to oil. Really, if you listen to James Hansen, you realize our survival depends on it.
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
#75 Tim
“Gov’t can’t even run a toilet!”
——————————————-
That is very true! Here in Seattle the government spent 5 million dollars on self cleaning toilets, but decided to cancel the program.
The sold them on eBay for a massive loss after they took favor with prostitutes and drug dealers.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008075545_ebay27m.html
Stew
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February 19th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
#67 DaV8or
“So the question is, does America really need industry?”
No, not really. Not a car manufactuing industry at least. It accounts for a relatively small percentage of our GDP.
Some things Americans just can’t compete in anymore. Look at the electronics industry which is far bigger than autos. Where was your T.V. produced? Should we subsidize an American T.V. manufacturer?
We need to adapt to the changing global economy and do what we do best, service industries. My father worked a manufactuing job for 40 years and hated it. Made me promise never to follow his footsteps. These are not the kind of jobs we should be fighting to keep.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Well, since this thread is drifting anyway I think it’s time again — by popular demand — for the
Pro- Fit -Ability Report
The Fit is running perfectly so far after about 6,000 miles. No big surprise, but worth mentioning for the record. Gas mileage seems to take a big hit in cold weather; it’s been as low as 29 mpg in cold-weather, short-trip, urban (not suburban, I mean mostly really urban) use.
I’ve read complaints about the manual transmission being geared too low, engine above 3,000 RPM at 60 MPH. This is not a problem with the automatic (at least on the base Fit as I have it.) At 60 MPH the engine is doing a relaxed 2,200 (approximately). Mileage on fully warmed-up moderate-speed highway trips runs in the low to mid 40s.
The Fit is zippy, zingy, responsive, somewhat bouncy at times, and reminds me of my ‘74 Rabbit from before VW got all luxury wannabe. For someone who’s used to bigger, softer cars this might be a negative.
More strong points: This may be silly, but I really like the swept-back front bumper; it makes sense aerodynamically and it makes sense in the kind of narrow-street, crowded urban driving I mostly do these days. (Sigh, my John Denver LPs mock me from their dusty shelf.) The Fit really is cavernous for its size, and has shown it can carry 80% of a JV basketball team plus driver in a pinch. The Fit turns out to be good in the snow, even without the optional (on the Sport model) vehicle stability control.
Weak points: Driver seating position is not the greatest; it’s taken a while to get really comfortable with it, and I’m not sure the Fit would be my first choice for a ten-hour drive. The front-window defrost setting seems to default to using the aircon compressor at its own discretion, which I wish I could figure out how to override. In start-stop, start-stop driving the automatic transmission sometimes starts with a bit of a jolt.
Overall, I’m really enjoying the Fit so far.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Tim #33,
I was with you until the execution part.
Execution should be reserved from murders, rapists, and child molesters and anyone trying to steal my Volt.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
#67 DaV8or
“So the question is, does America really need industry?”
YES!!!! Profitable, well run, exporting industry that does not NEED or WANT a taxpayer handout. We MUST produce to survive, but taking from the productive to give to the non-productive will kill production and turn us into an EX-USSA.
Rashiid Amul (#81)
OK, how about striking the “execution” part and replacing it with “water boarding daily for life”.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I’ve noticed in business there are two approaches. The first approach is to decide what resources you have available and to then implement solutions based on those resources. This usually achieves middling success if it achieves any success at all.
The second approach is to decide what you want to achieve, what it will take to get there, and to then find the resources to do it. This is what the big winners usually do.
This latter approach was used when the US developed the bomb, won WWII, and put a man on the moon. The former approach was used by the Confederate States of America to lose the Civil War. Luckily for the country, so far the Obama Administration has followed the successful approach, and hopefully this won’t change. Applied to the auto industry, this will mean deciding what GM should look like, deciding how much this will cost, deciding whether the cost is worth the benefit, and then, if the benefits outweigh the costs, finding the resources and implementing the plan.
They will do this, BTW, despite pressure from environmental groups, many members of which are quite biased against the Detroit auto makers.
Consequently, while I voted for the “loans with strings” option, none of these options were very appealing nor did any represent what we will see the Obama Administration do.
As a footnote, the difference between Obama’s approach and Bush’s approach is quite stark but illuminating. For example, Bush wanted a “Car Czar” in order to protect the president from the political fallout which will doubtless follow any course of action. Obama reviewed this decision and decided to get rid of the Czar on grounds that it wouldn’t be fair to have the person named as Czar take the heat for a decision which ultimately would be his and not the Czar’s.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Jaime @79:
That is an apples and oranges comparison. Not even close to meaningful. I should not have to explain it to you. Just do a little research.
DaV8or@67 is dead on as is Gary @44. Good comments both.
And yes, I wish there was an American TV maker.
Thats who I’d be buying from. Absolutely.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
41. Laura wrote:
“And Detroit buys 80% of the US made parts. The Japanese manufacturers buy Japanese parts. That seems to me to be a massive job transfer to Japan.”
———————————————————-
Read GM’s latest report. While the Detroit automakers do use more american parts, it is only a 10-15% spread if I recall correctly. And Chrysler is barely ahead of the Japanese.
42. Laura wrote: “Unions are a government sponsored monopoly that the Japanese don’t have to deal with.”
———————————————————–
Unions are unions. They are not “a government sponsored monopoly”. As for Japan not having to deal with them, they already pay their workers near-union wages.
The union labour cost is NOT a real issue. The current hourly labour costs for Detroit VS the Japanese in the US works out to perhaps $100-150 per vehicle… as per GM. GM lose ~$4K per vehicle. So tell me again how much hourly wages have to do with the current situation?
If you want to talk about retiree benefits, then ok, that is more of an issue. But it is more fun to try to scapegoat organized labour than to take an retiree’s pension/health care away, isn’t it?
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
#79 Service industries alone do not create a viable economy. It leads to massive debt, and that’s not sustainable.
No. Manufacturing jobs aren’t as pleasant as service industry jobs. But they are vital to the economy. And there are a lot of people here who want them. Why do you think the southern states are so eager for Toyota factories?
And what about engineering jobs? R&D jobs? Management jobs? Do we want to lose those to?
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
#74 Tim says “Gov’t can’t even run a toilet!”
You definitely need to get out more. Go live in Africa for six months and then get back to us. My guess is your mindless prattle would be turned down a few notches.
Absent that, go see Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian.” There is a great scene where the separatists are complaining about Roman rule. They start off with the idea that the Romans haven’t brought them anything. Then one person mentions roads, another mentions education, and so on and so forth. At the end they agree that “The Romans haven’t brought anything except” and then they follow with a very long list of great things.
The same reasoning applies here. Other than an educated workforce, transportation infrastructure, communications infrastructure, water, sewers, electricity, fire protection, police force, national defense, and just about everything else that allows businesses and individuals to flourish, you’re right, our government doesn’t provide us with a thing.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
#83 MetrologyFirst
Q: So why isn’t there an American T.V. maker?
A: Because it can’t be done profitably here anymore.
I think my comparison is very relevant.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
@GXT 84
“Unions are unions. They are not “a government sponsored monopoly”.”
When the Govt tells you to get to the table and negotiate with them just like in the past, IMHO (4what it’s worth), that’s “a government sponsored monopoly”.”
I personally think that no matter what Chapter XX they go through, the Govt will make sure the Union will be there with them.
Again, IMHO.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
#79 fahrv,
Thanks for the report.
Sounds like overall mpg 50/50 would be 35 mpg?
How about road noise (wind,tires, engine) at highway speed?
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Revised comment-Regarding the 100 billion. Give them, GM and Ford, the bucks, but, within reason, insist that all production for the US retail market be located in the US, and limited to building the EREV, exclusively(with few exceptions), evolving toward the pure EV as technology permits. Time for America to go cold turkey, let’s end our addiction to sweat shop labor, to oil.
thanks
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
“Sounds like overall mpg 50/50 would be 35 mpg?”
Yes, that would be in the ballpark.
“How about road noise (wind,tires, engine) at highway speed?”
I’ve got a bit of a skewed perspective, having grown up in the back of a Microbus and driven small and sporty-ish cars all my life. From my perspective it’s fine, but others might perceive it differently. It’s a little noisier than a late-model Jetta, is my best reference point.
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February 19th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
#82 DonC:
I am a member of numerous environmental groups. Our family and business own 7 Chevrolets, and no imports. I hope that you can tell from my efforts here that I am actually biased in favor of Detroit auto makers and against imports.
When Detroit offers products such as the Volt, members of environmental groups will be first in line to buy them. IMHO, what members of environmental groups don’t like is Detroit’s disastrous product mix decisions, which have brought it to its current state of near collapse. If Detroit had listened to members of environmental groups years ago, and begun the transition it is now so desperately trying to make to smaller, more fuel efficient cars sooner, it would be in a lot better shape today.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
#82 DonC
Note that none of your examples are activities that must be economically viable. Nuclear bombs, wars, and competition between nations are not exactly glowing examples of successful economic policies.
Just come out of the closet already!! Your second approach only works if the state controls the means of production within an economy. That economic model belongs in the dustbin of history. People should be free to give or remove their patronage from businesses as they see fit. Not according to the dictates of the Central Committe or the Automotive Task Force, and I don’t care if the Central Committe is headed by Mother Teresa herself. It’s an immoral approach, and it fails.
Just wear the label with pride.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
DonC (#86)
“Go live in Africa for six months…”
Don… we’re NOT Africa and we don’t want to be!
“….Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian.””
Comrade… can’t you tell satirical comedy from real life? Prescription drugs may help. Ask your psychiatrist.
“…our government doesn’t provide us with a thing.”
Don, Comrade, finish the sentence… “that free market competition could not provide better and more cheaply than a bureaucratic, geometrically growing, all powerful federal monopoly.”
Don C-ommunist, if you like Statism so much then move to Europe instead of trying to turn the USA in to the USSA. Yes, I know that they are not doing so well either because their Statists are debasing their currencies with “entitlement” redistribution too, but you obviously like “crappy” toilets and comedy so you’ll fit right in. I suggest France. I hear they have Jerry Lewis on TV 24/7.
Here in the USA, “We, the People” are getting really pissed off. We love freedom and we’re armed!
Ignore or interpret the Constitution at your peril.
DON’T TREAD ON ME!!!
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
DonC # 86.
While visiting Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument,
the toilet at the top is nothing but a shack covering a hole in the ground.
You are being hammered here, so I thought I would add a little brevity.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
#95 Rashiid Amul:
Maybe it’s a glimpse of the future.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Statik #16
That’s definitely the picture of a green car
)
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
#86 DonC
educated workforce, transportation infrastructure, communications infrastructure, water, sewers, electricity, fire protection, police force, national defense,
__________________________________
Gov’t exist (or should exist) to provide a mechanism for protecting the Tragedy of the Commons. Some (not all) of your examples easily fall within this definition. I’d add to that environmental pollution controls. Supporting private companies would not fall into this definition.
I’d be interested to learn your philosophy of gov’t power.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
#84–Ron Gettlefinger said during the hearings that Detroit buys 80% of the parts. That’s where I got the figure. Admittedly, he’s biased. What report are you talking about?
Unions do form monopolies on labour costs. And that increases costs. That’s not inherently a bad thing, but when one player has to deal with it, and the other doesn’t, it’s no longer a level playing field.
Union wages may be competitive right now–although that’s debatable. But it wasn’t the entire time the Japanese companies were gobbling up market share. And it’s what forced Detroit to cede the low- margin compact car market. If it’s really 4k per car, that’s huge when you’re talking about a 10,000-15,000 car! Especially, if you take into account that parts form 70% of the value added of a car. And dealer mark-up is probably at least 10%. That means that Detroit will lose money on each car, and the Japanese will make money on each car.
That’s why cafe standards affects Detriot more than the Japanese companies. The Japanese could make small, cheap, fuel efficient cars at a profit. The Detriot companies could not.
And that’s why we are where we are right now. Detroit started out with an enourmous lead, and now they have to play catch up now that their costs are almost in line with the competition. It’s practically impossible without US government help.
By the way, you’re right that the legacy costs are huge. But they are huge because of the unions. I’m not trying to pick on anyone. But when 40% of the retirees are under the age of 65–they’re also going to have to make concessions. GM can’t handle that. No company could. And it’s unfair to expect the US government to prioritize one group of retirees over all the others.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
#96. Noel. LOL. Word.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Steven #38
We should not be picking and choosing which companies to support with taxpayer money.
————————————————–
You are already doing it when allowing US$651.2 billion this year alone for military spending. Do you really think that this money, your tax dollars, don’t help support a number of companies ? You just choose to support military related companies instead of automotive ones.
At first, I was thinking that 100 billion to save the auto industry was a huge number. Then, compared to the military budget, it doesn’t seem that much to save an industry that can help get away from oil and spend less on military.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
DonC
I got a little uptight in my previous post and I apologize. Let me try and restate more calmly.
There is far more to liberty then as defined by the ACLU. Freedom to buy and sell with whom I please is, in my opinion, even more fundamental then many of the important rights defended by the ACLU. What you’re proposing is that I should not have this freedom, at least in regard to automotive companies, or any other company selected by the gov’t. I should be forced to support GM, and if I don’t (withhold taxes,) I’ll go to jail.
People should be free to support GM (buy their bonds and cars) and they should be free to abstain depending on the dictates of their mind and conscience.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Noel Park, #96 says,
#95 Rashiid Amul:
Maybe it’s a glimpse of the future.
——-
Gosh my friend, I sincerely hope not.
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
It looks like China’s Govt tax incentives may be helping the sales of BYD. Hopefully our incentives are good enough to spark sales of EREV cars. We need out to buy first though.
“Industry insiders said that the government’s supportive policies including reduction of auto purchase tax and incentives for the development of clean energy cars, are beginning to generate positive effects.”
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/02/06/409980.html
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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February 19th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Of the things that Comrade Don mentioned, only ONE (national defense) is within the Constitutional authority of the Federal Gov’t and these morons can’t even to THAT right.
They are NOT even defending our boarders from foreign invaders and are instead spending $Trillions using bribes and bombs to meddle in the affairs of foreign nations forcing them into a model of social(ist) Mobocracy that our founders warned us about.
The rest are specifically left to the States (who will compete with each other for individual and corporate tax base) or to the People. The States also make sure their militia is well-regulated (practice and ready for action) so they can defend themselves from federal treason because that is necessary for a state to remain free. Every free man is part of the militia and must be armed so he can do his duty to defend the Constitution.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
All citizens MUST read & obey (not interpret) the law of our REPUBLIC (Constitution) or we suffer tyranny and anarchy as we now do.
DonC and his ilk’s ideas physically threaten liberty and personal responsibility with the “hammer and sicle” of Statist tyranny. DonC’s ideas are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies or soviet nuclear weapons.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Tim #105
Tim, I think this time you are way over the top. I understand what you are saying, and I strongly support the second amendment. But I sure as he11 am not going to war with my neighbor.
DonC is a good guy with well thought out comments. There is no need to keep slamming him.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
BYD – the Chinese maker already mastered the hybrid car for US$22. Some people still are dreaming that GM and its Volt is something inovative and unique.
Unfortunately, GM, Chrysler must go.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
@Tim 105
Tim, bro…chill man, have a beer with me.
Going to H( . )( . )ters for lunch right now, meet U there?
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
#101 Tall Pete:
Amen.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
@Master Yoda 107
“dreaming that GM and its Volt is something inovative and unique.”
For me,…..nah, not really. It’s a great concept and a boatload of technology into the concept but given that GM has a bigger support infrastructure (repair facilities and whatnot), the Volt has more appeal.
JMHO.
Off to lunch……
I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, ShAkEn not StirreD…
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
If you care about alternative energy cars, if you ever hoped to drive one. If you ever wanted to be supportive and help make cars happen then now is the time to act on a VERY SPECIFIC ISSUE:
There is no more investment money for alternative energy cars. The Venture Capital market is dead and may never come back. IF, it comes back, Tesla’s problems have put such a bad taste in the VC’s mouth that they will never invest in cars again and those few that did invest in a few car companies have proven that they have no comprehension of how a car company works.
Detroit and the oil industry has managed to block alternative energy cars for decades.
BUT, now, a single door, a last chance has opened. Money was approved and banked, on a emergency fast track basis called the Section 136 DOE ATVM but it was supposed to be released last year and it has been either stalled intentionally by Detroit and Big Oil or mismanaged by those with no idea what they are doing or mis-used by those exploiting the interest revenue on the $25B sitting in Treasury.
Most of the alternative car companies have applied for this money, they are dying in this economy and they all planned for receipt of funds long before this.
What can you do? Tell those in charge to get this money released today.
Today: Call the White House at 202-456-1414
Today: Call Steven Chu, the new head of the DOE at 1-202-586-5000
Today: Call CNN and demand an expose at 800-CNN-NEWS
Please re-post this and forward it to your friends.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Excellent analysis and summary of the key issues in any assistance by Jeffrey Sachs and presented in Fortune. Helpful regardless of anyone’s initial predisposition
http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/17/news/companies/sachs_carmakers.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009021711
Detroit’s automakers may be portrayed as dinosaurs, but their survival and return to global leadership is vital to the U.S. economy. By Jeffrey Sachs, contributor 2/17/2009
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
It’s costing money now but if GM, Ford and Chrysler fails, it will cost a great deal to the taxpayers. Look at it this way, with the new workers making half the wages that Toyota pays (real wages, not the bullshit that’s been presented) and with no more pensions, GM and Ford will bury the Japanese with new technologies and also, the thorns of the bad quality perception will eventually come to past, Some may think this is funny but history will show we are a bit slow in getting it but when we do, we really get. When the US decided to go to the moon decades ago, it was thought of as being impossible, but we did it. All that was needed was the right leadership which I think we now have. I did not vote for Obama but I now see him as a doer. Not like Bush that sat in the White House and did nothing about the US problems. That’s one of the reason why we are in the shape we are in today.
Good luck GM, Ford and Chrysler. May you return to your glory days of the past.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
#101 Tall Pete
Supporting a national defense is in the constitution. Supporting various domestic manufacturers is not (unless you abuse the commerce clause). This is because national defense is a “Tragedy of the Commons.” There is not a private organization which has the proper incentives to perform this function. Manufacturing of consume goods is fundamentally different.
Just because the Federal gov’t messes this function up so often is not a good reason to expand it’s control into more areas.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Anyone ever hear of the Coleman Flash Cell ?
They use this technology in their Cordless Screwdriver.
It fully charges in only 90 seconds !
Can then drive around 700 screws.
Can recharge/discharge 500,000 cycles !
This awesome screwdriver does NOT use a battery.
Somebody needs to start thinking about putting a few thousand of these in next-gen Volt (before boy geniuses at smaller companies do it first).
Don’t laugh, that is what people did to Tesla when they said they would power a car using notebook PC batteries !
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
#44 says
America is turning into an country of unskilled labourers who cannot afford the products they manufacture, like China of 30 years ago. Americans are fooling themselves if they think that this system is sustainable.
——————————————————
We can disagree on the importance of saving GM, but there is nothing gained by making statements that simply are not true, such as the one quoted. The USA is a hotbed of engineering and design, as indicated by the fact that each year we import engineers. Nearly 3/4 of the entry level engineers each year come as engineering students or mostly engineering graduates of universities in other countries.
Let us be realistic — automotive engineering is well developed. How to make an ICE car is not a secret. How to make a Volt or even a good electric car requires a lot of engineering, and it is required for low-volume (Tesla) as much Volt. Most engineering effort goes into new kinds of (non-automotive) products and devices, and while the US is hardly alone now in engineering design, there remains a huge amount done here.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
#48 Tag said “I might have to give up “Optimism” for Lent.”
———————–
Please remain optimistic. We will get our Volt, probably from GM, and if not from whoever takes over the residual organization after bankruptcy. It is a hot product.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
#57 noel park said “I guess I have to put in with Tagamet at #48.”
—————————————————–
No you cannot do that. I have not given you permission
It is your solemn (and fun) duty to stay optimistic until the day your Volt arrives (smile here).
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
you guys are crazy,—stop all the bailouts, —–stop the stimulus,——–STOP BUYING NEW GAS CARS!!!!!!—-You want a Volt well so do I, stop all this madness and let the banks and auto companies go bankrupt and let the country get back to small businesses that’s the backbone of this country, not all of these huge conglomerants
LET THEM GO!!!!!—-(IMHO) of course
NO PLUG, NO SALE, JGTVWOTR, DBNGCMEMEV, (my house) =D~~~(my volt)————————-STOP THE BAILOUTS———————-oooops too late
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
#66 DaV8or said
GM & Chrysler going Chapter 11 = Chapter 7 with in months. Chapter 7 means no more GM and Chrysler. No more GM and Chrysler means no more parts suppliers. No more parts suppliers means Ford goes Chapter 11, then Chapter 7. No more American auto industy
——————————————————————-
You are far too pessimistic. Please go get a nice chocolate or something
Customers will mainly shift over to Ford, and that greatly increased demand will generate much bigger parts orders by them. Suppliers are not going down because one customer goes down, they will simply work harder on the ones that remain. And, it is worth keeping in mind that many US suppliers provide parts for Toyota and Honda also, even if “under cover.” As long as people in the US buy cars and trucks, and they will continue to do so, there will be a US automotive industry.
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February 19th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@Beaver Cleaver 115
“Anyone ever hear of the Coleman Flash Cell ?
They use this technology in their Cordless Screwdriver.
It fully charges in only 90 seconds !
Can then drive around 700 screws.
Can recharge/discharge 500,000 cycles !
This awesome screwdriver does NOT use a battery.”
They use “UltraCaps” aka UltraCapacitors. Maxwell UltraCaps I think. If I recall they are using 3 2000F caps in series for a total of 666.6666Farads. If you’ve ever used it, you’ve noticed recharge is often but Fasssssst.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
DaV8or Says: @39
“Clearly our country is a wretched old dinosaur and if we let it die, many smaller, leaner and meaner countries could then be allowed to spring up and fill it’s place.”
************************************************************************************
I agree with your analogy. Can we let all the great American icons disappear? No. I don’t want to become a second rate nation. If we lose the auto industry, then that is what will happen. Do you as an American want that to happened???
Fear not, taxpayers will get their money back if the domestic can get over this recession. If we allow them to fail, the taxpayers will still get their money back from liquidation.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Master Yoda @107:
Even with what little I know of both BYD and the Volt…I am quite confident that there will be very little similarities between these two vehicles.
RB @117:
I believe you are correct.
Where’ my Blue Volt?!!! I want my Blue Volt!!!
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
#82 DonC said “Obama reviewed this decision and decided to get rid of the Czar on grounds that it wouldn’t be fair to have the person named as Czar take the heat for a decision which ultimately would be his and not the Czar’s.”
=======================================
Well yes President Obama did name a committee, and the committee prompty chose Ron Bloom as their instrument, so in effect if not in name Mr Bloom is the car czar. He has a good record in steel. Maybe he will again be successful in automotive. By reputation he can knock heads, and everyone’s head, if that is what it takes.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
#120. I would love to believe this. But then why did Ford’s Alan Mulally ask congress to loan money to GM and Chrysler?
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
I’m a BIG fan of the American auto industry. They have survived when all other industries were dismantled and shipped overseas.
However for $100,000,000,000 in venture capitol, I could start a new car company from scratch and have a diversified product line.
1 partially electric vehicle for the greenies (Volt like)
1 conventional hybrid for the greenies on a budget.
1 non hybrid sedan (with a wagon option) so my company can make money.
1 full size truck because half the country is still rednecks like me and we need them. (with hybrid engineering built in but not implemented). That way if gas goes up they can easily be offered in a hybrid.
100 billion spend on engineering tooling, and purchasing old plants in the rust belt.
The end.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
#123 David K wants his Blue Volt —-
——————————————————-
It’s somewhere in the first dozen and will be to you soon
/don’t press me on how soon is soon, but you’ll know it when you see it
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
RB (#116) says:
“The USA is a hotbed of engineering and design, as indicated by the fact that each year we import engineers.”
Yep, we are a becoming a service provider for other, more productive nations. We educate their foreign engineers and work visa some back so that we can provide R&D engineering services to companies who build products in other countries who then buy our Treasury Bonds (loan us money) so we can import their products.
This cycle is happening in EVERY sector from auto to technology to food to energy.
However, both India and China are producing more engineers each year while the USA is producing fewer. That’s why we are importing them. Many of the engineers that the USA produces go back home to work in India and China.
Not only are we exporting production. We’re exporting technology AND the engineering capability (talent) to produce and design future technologies.
Why are we doing this? TAXES, REDISTRIBUTION & REGULATION (Statism)
Here’s the BIG Question:
What happens once these other countries can do their own engineering, educate their own engineers, do their own R&D and realize that our currency and our Treasury Bonds are over leveraged and we can’t borrow anymore or afford their products?
Will they find someone else to lend money to? Will they find someone else to sell their products and services to? Why is GM so interested in China? Why is Jim Rogers so interested in China?
(hint: China has gold and is exporting while America has paper, debt and has a growing trade deficit with… everyone.)
You can’t borrow indefinitely and there is no such thing as a bottomless pit…
AGAIN, WE HAVE A STATISM PROBLEM!
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
http://mises.org/story/3253
80 years ago many decried the collapse of the piano industry.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@RB 127
“#123 David K wants his Blue Volt —-”
Ssssure he’s getting a Blue Volt.
We all know he’s geting the “Grey” Volt right?
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
If the right fixes are put in place, the economy will recover much faster, which will easily make up for the $125 billion. Don’t forget, the US government is receiving an equity stake in GM and Chrysler for their money, so it isn’t simply being thrown away.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
If the DJIA/Stocks was your Bltch, she’d go down on you….
http://www.thestreet.com/ticker/ibsMarketBox.ajaxaction#
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
RB @127:
I’m 19,xxx on “THE LIST.”
It’ll probably be later than sooner.
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
In the above voting, only about 20 percent or the voters would be in favor of up to 100 billion in loans. About 75 percent voted no.
I voted yes. But, would vote no to loans to any other OEM which does NOT change their production lines over to exactly what GM is doing.
(If that would have been the question to vote on).
The buck stops here.
Meaning, our money must no longer go toward any fossil fuel energy source however we can prevent it.
(I kept my central gas heating off for all this winter and last winter to help stay positioned to buy a Volt).
Keeping our cash in America with overnight wind-generated electricity (for recharging) by having Voltec technology is *****THE***** ONLY******
way that this is going to happen, keeping our bucks here.
Other OEM’s whose grossly-overly-self-convinced “marketing departments” (who have too long believed “their own stuff”) apparently have been misleading their non-technical executives in the board rooms that they can “bs” the public into believing that anything they say makes their outdated and horribly-unwanted “technologies” “marketable” at any profitable price.
You advisers to the decision-makers are making extremely-severe mistakes, and sadly, you will never be forced to pay for your gross
outdated technological stupidities. Yes, these are very harsh statements to you non-GM marketers, but someone has to warn you before you set up your OEM toward the proverbial “BLACK HOLE”. (Hence the validity of the above “no” votes).
I would never be allowed to voice these things if it were not for the patience of the good people running this site (certainly never in the general media). But warned you have been, and, do not be surprised as America becomes far more techno-savvy in the near future than you choose not to be now (which is your job!!!!!), that your non-Voltec type vehicles may be met in the market with indifference if not contempt because you chose not to listen and do what it takes to make sure:”the buck stops here”.
Voltec technologies must get all the loans they need, (rather than 700 million petrodollars A YEAR out of country instead of funding tens of thousands of jobs here.) Anything other than Voltec type technology?…..heck “no”.
Dan Petit Austin TX
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February 19th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
#106 Rashiid — No problems. Your comments are greatly appreciated but it’s not a big deal. Not even a small deal really.
#124 RB says “By reputation he can knock heads, and everyone’s head, if that is what it takes.”
As you say, Ron Bloom is an excellent choice since he has a history of representing both unions and bondholders, so he’ll have credibility with the two groups which are going to have to make the most concessions. He’s also known as being skilled at “extracting concessions.” If I remember correctly he may have a personal relationship with Gettelfinger from the Dana Corp reorg a few years back. This won’t hurt because the UAW negotiations will be the more difficult of the two simply because of the political nature of the UAW.
#98 Cautious Fan says “I’d be interested to learn your philosophy of gov’t power”
This is easy. I’m in favor of using the right tool for the job. As I look at economic activity, I see various social organizations as having different abilities to marshal capital and labor. Starting with the lowest and going to the highest, you have the family unit, partnerships, corporations, and then governments.
So if you have a huge problem, for example, the financial sector is melting down, or you have to fight a war, or you have to reduce oil consumption for national defense or environmental reasons, or you need to have massive infrastructure improvements, then you need government to act. IOW if you need something and government is the only organization with the resources to attack the problem, then government action is appropriate. If some other organization can reasonably do the job (not some goofy pie-in-the-sky scenario that suggest they can), then government should stay out.
Ultimately it’s a question of finding the right sized tool for the problem you’re facing. You don’t want to use bazooka on a fly, and you don’t want to use a pea shooter on a charging rhino.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Opel Ampera caught undisguised in Germany
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/19/opel-ampera-caught-undisguised-in-germany/
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Laura @125 asked the proper question.
Mulally himself said “If one of the big three goes to bankruptcy, we all go”.
Sorry if the facts step on some toes. I think the CEO of Ford knows more about what may happen than ANYONE spouting off around here.
The chest thumping and bluster in this thread is amazing. Why is it so hard to understand that the issues facing this industry right now are too big and too interdependent for a simple solution? Why is is so difficult for some people to actually think about the big picture?
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
#125 Laura said re #120, which said that many GM customers would shift to Ford
I would love to believe this. But then why did Ford’s Alan Mulally ask congress to loan money to GM and Chrysler?
——————————————————–
It is a good question, and of course we cannot know Mulalley’s mind. There are some seemingly obvious factors 1) Ford might later want to ask for bailout money “just in case”, and 2) there was considerable pressure in Michigan for the automakers to make a united case before congress, 3) Ford’s own suppliers wanted Mullaley to do so, as they have contracts with the others.
Watching the TV pictures of the congressional hearings, I thought that Mulally was notably less gung-ho than the CEOs of GM and Chrysler. A logical reason was that the crisis was not so immediate for Ford, but another possibility is that Mulally realized that if either folds Ford is going to get new sales as a consequence.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
#128 Tim says regarding the US importing engineers
We educate their foreign engineers and work visa some back so that we can provide R&D engineering services to companies who build products in other countries
————————————————————–
These engineering jobs in the US are the ones you described above as the highly skilled high paying jobs, so if we are doing what you say, we are getting some of the very best jobs in the overall process.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
#130 CaptJackSparrow said
“#123 David K wants his Blue Volt —-”
Ssssure he’s getting a Blue Volt.
We all know he’s geting the “Grey” Volt right?
—————————————————
Roses are red,
violets are blue,
I’m getting the red Volt,
Dave the blue is for you.
(smile)
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
#133 Dave K said
RB @127:
I’m 19,xxx on “THE LIST.”
It’ll probably be later than sooner.
===================================
Dave,
Statik has the power to calm jittery squirrels,
I have the power to sequence the list.
Take it from me, your blue Volt is in the first 25.
(smile)
/my power is just as legitimate as statik’s
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I am rooting for GM and applaud them for kick starting the whole EV revolution but past a Billion is where the buck drops. The Volt wont die if GM goes bankrupt Opel will continue the flexfuel line. Plus the opel version looks better anyway.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Just too many diverse opinions on a wide range of topics for me to comment on any of them. I don’t know where some of you are coming from or where you may be going. I am in the group that voted for the loans to the auto companies. America can not be left without its own auto manufacturers. Giving that job over to foreign countries (as we have been doing now for decades) is a very bad policy. Granted, the Big 3 and the unions didn’t help matters much with the stupid things each can be credited for doing. But, we need to support them up to a point. I just don’t know yet where that point is. We have wasted much more than the 100 billion the auto companies may need on just the financial market bail-out. Talk about throwing money to thieves. And this so-called stimulus bill is the first major down payment that may very well cost us much more than our tax money. Time will tell. At some point in the future the U.S. will reach a “cross road” and we will have to make a decision about which way we want to go and that decision will determine what kind of country we will leave for our children and grand children. May we make the right decision. God help us if we don’t.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
#137 Metrology said
Why is it so hard to understand that the issues facing this industry right now are too big and too interdependent for a simple solution? Why is is so difficult for some people to actually think about the big picture?
=========================================
Engineering, which we sometimes also think about, involves taking the big picture and dividing it into component parts. When one part fails, it does not mean all other parts fail, even if they are connected. Ford and GM are independent corporations and highly competitive from the top right down to the dealership level. If GM dealers are not there any longer, Ford is going to do their very best to get as many of those sales as possible, and Ford suppliers are going to sell them the parts to do so. Why would they do otherwise?
The reason that GM-to-Ford shift is going to happen is that it is in the immediate best interest of Chevrolet truck customers to shift to a Ford truck rather than no truck. (Same for cars.) It is in the immediate best interest of the Ford dealer to sell it to them, and they will. It is in the immediate best interest of Ford to supply that dealer with another truck, and Ford will.
Economics is powerful stuff when interests get lined up this way. Do not kid yourself that if GM folds all those Ford dealers will slink away in the night. Rather, the Ford dealers will run respectful but direct ads on TV the very next day saying “we are still here and open for business, come on by”.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
@RB 144
“Do not kid yourself that if GM folds all those Ford dealers will slink away in the night.”
Funny thing is, something like this happend before. Remember AMC (http://www.allpar.com/amc/). Same cries of lost jobs blah blah. But did the US fade away? Nope.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
145 CaptJackSparrow
Ah, but it isn’t over yet. Maybe we had to wait a few decades to really see the end.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
@RB & Laura & Metrology..
Its hard for me to describe how interlinked everything is in the auto industry, but if you live w/it everyday, it makes sense, when they say if one fails they all do. It really is like a stack of cards.
@Donc
Once again, i agree w/your comments. Tim has been a troll on here now for about 2 months i’m estimating. Not sure what his agenda is being this is a GM Volt site. Hopefully he gets bored soon, or finds some other site to troll.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
#135 DonC
The problem with just using “the right tool for the job” is that it’s 100% subjective. Bush thought wireless wiretaps and torture was the right tool for the job. He thought invading a foreign country was the right tool for the job. But he was wrong. Why? According to your definition, he was OK. If you’re boundaries on gov’t are so subjective, this is equivalent to no boundaries at all.
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February 19th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
hi Tim #74,
“You’re crazy…
… Would you rather use a public toilet or a private toilet?”
____________________________
I’ll use a bucket and The News Press if that’s what it takes to drive an E-REV for under $50,000,000,000.
=D~
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
@Rashiid Amul 146
“Ah, but it isn’t over yet. Maybe we had to wait a few decades to really see the end.”
Yes and that’s my point. All this drama today and for the next year and the next will just keep going. Even after the Volt is reselased and if GM goes under, I will at least have my Volt. Selfish me, I know, that’s who I am.
)
So no matter what I say or disagree with on this matter, the Govt will do what it wants anyway.
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
RB
Thanks for being the “Head Cheerleader” today. I know that it’s often like trying to push a bus with a rope.
Be well,
Tag
PS Those are great Pompoms you’ve got. Reminds me of the USC cheerleaders…..
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
GM >> Epic Fail…
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
DonC #135
Too much logic there. You may have overloaded some circuits. I would add the appropriate tool isn’t confined to just scale but also scope. For instance, local police is not so big that private organizations couldn’t handle the scale but the scope is not appropriate. You can see this a little bit with overzealous police departments trying to make speeding a funding source. Imagine if all areas of law enforcement were profit driven (legally). This is the heart of the debate over healthcare. Private companies have the scale to handle healthcare pooling contracts (more applicacable than the accepted term of insurance carrier) but is the scope appropriate? (Rhetorical question for the scope of this post, DO NOT ANSWER).
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
CaptJackSparrow #145
How is the AMC at all comparable? It atrophied slowly and then was purchased by Chrsler. The Jeep brand is a remnant of that organization. Basically, the Big 3 have been atrophying for some time until the recent downturn turned it into hemorrhaging. Perhaps the market could handle Chysler going under because of their smaller size, particularly if some peices got picked up quickly. The problem is with the suppliers. The Big 3 use a lot of the same suppliers but not the same components. Something (gov loans) would have to bridge the suppliers for the period between when one of the Big 3 goes down and production for the parts and vehicles can increase to make up for the lost revenue. It would be a year before much could be be done and probably 2 years before a lot of the production is converted. This is not necessarily a worse alternative than what is being done now, but it would certainly be more complicated.
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February 19th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
Overnight the banks got $700 Billion.
In the bank deal not one exec was asked to drop bloated salary, not one employee was asked to give back wages and benefits.
The only one loosing is this deal is the American worker. With UAW out of the way, there would be no reason to offer any benefits to any worker. Not even Federal, State, and local employees.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
#103 Rashiid Amul & #143 N Riley:
Well, I might be half joking, but no more. I just finished reading “Healing the Planet” by Paul R. and Anne Erlich, which may help to explain my sort of dark outlook this week. My younger son found it in a used book store. It was published in 1991. It is totally amazing to see that the exact same issues people are arguing about today were the subject of scientific questions 18 years ago, and how pitifully little has been done to address them.
Their basic conclusion is echoed in N Riley’s comment at #143. If we do not figure out how to lessen our impact upon the planet, and more equitably distribute its limited resources, the future of mankind is clearly at grave risk. N Riley is correct to raise the issue of the futures of our grandchildren and great grandchildren. What we do now will determine if they actually do go back to a shack with a hole in the ground, or worse.
#106 Rashiid Amul:
Well said. Many thanks.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
#155 jefro:
That’s the plan.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
#105 Timid
“…the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
So you need to cut the tassles off your dago T.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Koz 154
“How is the AMC at all comparable? It atrophied slowly and then was purchased by Chrsler.”
OK, so they’re going through “Accelerated Atrophie” and no potential buyers that we know of. One would think OPEC would seize the opportunity. Better?
“The Big 3 use a lot of the same suppliers but not the same components.”
True, however, coming from manufacturing myself, I know that ALL their parts have CAD drawings and most parts that require “Fabricating” use those drawings to make the parts. This means that those parts will most likely come from that same stock of raw materials. So yes, the “suppliers” will be able to make parts for other buyers.
” It would be a year before much could be be done and probably 2 years before a lot of the production is converted.”
Now if a supplier can’t fabricate parts from these precision drawings then they’re in the wrong business.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
#139
I agree that engineering is a good and fairly well paid profession and greatly adds to the well being of the company and country that MANUFACTURES what ever engineering comes up with. BUT till it is manufactured engineering is just a service industry which creates no wealth.
The service industrys only move money from one hand to the other rather than createing it. With primairly a service type ecomony we will shuffle a bit of money among our selves but the amount will get smaller every time we import something that was manufactured.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:17 pm
#151 Tag
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Thank you. Yes, rope and bus, a good analogy for today.
We will enjoy getting our Volts all the more because of the struggle.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Writing on the wall: GM shutters high-performance vehicle division
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/19/writing-on-the-wall-gm-shutters-high-performance-vehicle-divisi/
Too bad, I like the Camaro. Now if they just put the EREV in the Camaro…….
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
hi jefro #155,
“only one loosing is this deal is the American worker”
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We have had plenty of posts here regarding the Union’s part in the big picture. And all of us have our individual ideas and opinions regarding the health of the auto industry and the various systems which are attached to it.
Changing jobs is not the end of the world. Making adjustments in changing conditions is called “adapting” not “abuse”.
When a person says, ‘I’m a Union worker”. It’s like saying “I’m wearing a white hat” or “I’m tall”.
Union workers, hat wearers, and tall people can perform many kinds of work. Under many conditions.
If We The People spend $50,000,000,000 to $100,000,000,000 to keep the Union alive, are we being fair to nonunion people?
If my boss said, “You’re not going to have an office starting Monday. Our operations are moving downstairs into a dusty utility room because we need to tighten up a notch on the fiscal budget. And you’ll need to take a week off each month with no pay because we don’t have the payroll money right now”.
I don’t see this as worker abuse. I see this as a short term matter of reality. It’s my choice to stay or to leave at that point.
BTW: I have worked for a union (IBEW).
=D~
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
@Dave K. 163
Well said dude.
When our line had no work, we were “Cross Trained” to different product lines. I was shifted from Test and Measurement to soldering data aquisition boards for embeded systems to stock room filling “Kan Bans” (let’s see who knows what that means…) to machine shop doing tool & die milling cases, programming milling heads to the cut in the X, Y, Z and CU axis and shlt like that. At worst cases we were sent home and in many cases holiday shutdowns were extended. Funny part is, that company is still up and running fairly well considering these times.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
#160 old man said
I agree that engineering is a good and fairly well paid profession and greatly adds to the well being of the company…..With primairly a service type economy…
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Please note that the discussion began with an assertion that the USA was losing all its engineering jobs, an assertion that is not correct. Similarly, it is not correct that the USA is losing all or most manufacturing. Manufacturing remains an enormous sector of the USA economy, and the fraction of world manufacturing done in the US has remained about the same (actually increasing slightly) over decades. Indeed the product mix has changed, but the USA remains a very competitive manufacturing location.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
#156 noel park said
I just finished reading “Healing the Planet” by Paul R. and Anne Erlich, which may help to explain my sort of dark outlook this week.
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I agree that Paul Erlich is a good speaker and writer, and his forecasts of planetary disaster are compelling to read. From Wikepedia: He became a household name[1][2] after publication of his 1968 book The Population Bomb, in which he predicted that “In the 1970s and 1980s . . . hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs . But, what he predicted did not happen.
One must balance the thrill or gloom of reading (or hearing) Paul Erlich with some comparison to factual information. His population predictions have been entirely wrong. In developed countries such as Russia and Japan, and in Europe, and potentially in NA, the population problem (if there is one) is declining population, not population explosion.
Generally Erlich’s forecasts are in conflict with the UN World population forecasts, which are detached, professional, and based on extensive data. That is, what Ehrlich forecasts shows no signs of actually occurring. So he is exciting to hear, just like stories about earth’s impending collision with an asteroid are exciting to hear, but fact checking allows one to exhale and feel OK.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
The anarchy of the stimulus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw7U8JS1a4A
Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Strategy Room
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
What will we do if they aren’t supplied with loans? It will cost more money, and 100,000+ American jobs. It will be a disaster.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
The first question to be asked is, can we (or the US Government) bail out GM and others? Of course not.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
YES, we gave it to Wall St with no questions asked and we still do not know where the money went. At least we can see the products of it in the street very soon and off oil as well.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
#168 Zach,
“What will we do if they aren’t supplied with loans? It will cost more money, and 100,000+ American jobs. It will be a disaster.”
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We’ll suck it up and weather out a recession. We’ll let the free market work, and we’ll arrive on the other side with a better ecoonomy, more freedom, and a U.S. dollar still intact.
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February 19th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
#171 Add,
Oh yeah. Then, on the 4th of July, we’ll all have a beer and watch the fireworks.
Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.
General John Stark, July 31 1809
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February 19th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
170
Hous Volt Pharteen Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
How are you sure that you will see products on the street just because of the bailout? The automobile industry is in deep dive.
There is nothing which indicates that the “volt” is even viable.
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February 20th, 2009 at 1:27 am
I hope nobody is fooled to think this mess is only going to cost $100 billion. That’s a down payment! That’s why we need:
1) Complete reorganization.
2) Destruction of the UAW.
3) Write off of all legacy debt.
4) Sell off of any assets that do not fit the new plan perfectly.
5) Completely new companies. Otherwise the UAW will start a labor war. They may anyway. Those workers are not going to be happy to make fair wage. it’s like an average American worker moving to a 3rd world country and accepting those working conditions. Not without a fight.
6) Retool the new companies for the transportation needs of the next century – electrified transportation.
The above will happen. It has to happen. The current business model simply cannot work in this new environment we find ourselves in. It might take us a decade to make the needed changes but those changes are coming. If they don’t, The Big -3 will be more like the Little – 3 or perhaps the Tiny – 1.
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February 20th, 2009 at 1:33 am
“The startups that will spring-up in the place of the Big 3, will be much more capable of dealing with current market conditions.”
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I don’t think so. I think their demise will be permanent, just like the permanent demise of the US electronics industry.
Unless of course you count spring-ups like Tesla. They have been springing up for almost six years now. In that time, they have managed to hand-build a few hundred of only one model that costs $109,000.
I think if Detroit dies, Europe and Asia will own the auto business permanently. Or President Obama will make the big-three a nationalized Amkar to go along with Amtrak.
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February 20th, 2009 at 2:54 am
There is nothing which indicates that the “volt” is even viable.
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It’s been stated many times now that money won’t be flowing in the correct direction until the second generation. Volt depends on something else sustaining the business in the meantime.
In other words, bailout money will aid the struggle to deal with legacy costs but GM is still without competitive vehicles. What will they sell to compete with the Camry & Fusion hybrids? What about Prius & Insight?
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February 20th, 2009 at 5:32 am
I agree that cost is an issue, but the government basically investing this money. If the US automakers can turn this thing around (which the last few years show that they can), the benefits will be much greater than the cost.
Thousands of jobs and hundreds of companies are at risk, but the only thing that most people are seeing is the $100 billion loaned and think that it is all cost. The trade deficit is already at a negative and that’s with all of the weapons sales. The past decade has been the first and hardest part of the reconstruction of their business. We should not just give up now. The last depression wasn’t overcome until government spending was finally called to help.
The publicity of theses events aren’t helping GM. People are worried that their warranties won’t be validated. This is followed up by Hyundai (I purposefully pronounce their name wrong), who mainly use Korean labor (one of the cheapest labor in the world), for only a couple thousand less. Today’s quality might be better, but almost all of the people that I have known that have owned a Hyundai in the past have had transmission problems and a significant drop in gas mileage, so obviously the total cost isn’t factored in.
With Chevy winning the loyalty award for 2009, there should be something done to help. Oh, and to everyone that is complaining about the Volt’s price, compare it’s maintenance cost and features to the Prius. Not to mention that it will have an American battery. The benefit out weights the cost.
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February 20th, 2009 at 5:53 am
Oh, and to everyone that is complaining about the Volt’s price, compare it’s maintenance cost and features to the Prius.
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Real-World data takes years to gather… which means 2013 at the very minimum before anyone will have an constructive basis of comparison available.
At that point, how many of the newest model Prius will be on the road? Stop fighting the very vehicle helping to push technology in favor of vehicles like Volt.
Remember, GM’s restructuring plan just submitted to the government relies heavily on traditional (non-hybrid) vehicles.
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February 20th, 2009 at 7:37 am
The WSJ is reporting this morning (2/20) that customers are shifting from GM and Chrysler to Ford.
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February 20th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Oh boy!!
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February 21st, 2009 at 6:10 am
MONEY MONEY MONEY…. oke i wonder where is the black hole that is sucking all the money out of GM?
Maybe Tesla will take over GM
or even aptera… haha
Anyway… maybe the BYD will here before the VOLT.
The biggest import company here in the netherlands has already signed a contract with BYD for importing byd cars.
http://www.echo.nl/wf-ds/auto/lees/787924/autobinck.wordt.importeur.byd/
(it’s dutch but english is part of the german languages so you should get the point )
And it’s claimed that they already made there cars NCAP ready. But not sure.
I still don’t get it why chinese people can ride a plug in before we EVEN CAN BUY ONE =D seriously!!
Soon chinese will be the new amerika…. i think.
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February 23rd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
“And it’s what forced Detroit to cede the low- margin compact car market. If it’s really 4k per car, that’s huge when you’re talking about a 10,000-15,000 car!”
Detroit’s strategy was to decontent and dequality the small car to save $1K and then turn around and sell it for $5K less than a comparable Japanese car.
Good show. Gonna make it up in volume?
The delusion here is just amazing. Not only did they never really try to make good small cars (except for the 1st gen Saturns, which I actually bought); they’ve usually failed to hide a deep and active loathing for the very existence of small car buyers the whole time.
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