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GM Plans to Produce Two Extended Range Electric Vehicles in Addition to the Volt in 2012

February 18th, 2009 | Posted in: Production, Voltec

GM’s new restructuring plan attempts to explain how GM hopes to achieve profitability by 2011, and how it will need $16.6 billion in government funds to do so. Reading the fine print it also tells us a bit more about what GM plans to do in the area of extended range-electric vehicles and other alternative energy vehicles.

In addition to beginning the mass production of the first generation Chevrolet Volt in 2010, it is apparently GM’s plan to produce two additional extended-range electric car models.

From the plan:

General Motors is also investing significantly in hybrid and plug-in vehicles, for both cars and trucks, and offers 9 hybrid models in 2009 (more than any other manufacturer), a number which will increase to 14 models in 2012 and 26 models in 2014. The Chevrolet Volt is included in this count, as are two additional models sharing the Volt‘s extended range electric vehicle (EREV) technology.

Furthermore, GM says it is planing to build those two new Voltec extended-range vehicles starting in 2012. That year as well will bring with it second generation strong hybrids and compressed natural gas vehicles.

Further out GM has plans to mass produce hydrogen fuel cells cars, HCCI cars, and third generation strong hybrids starting in 2015. Further advanced pure electric cars are not mentioned in that long-term timeframe.

From what executives have told GM-Volt.com previously, GM will be displaying several new extended-range electric car (Voltec) concepts at auto shows throughout this year beginning in Geneva next month. It seems likely that those receiving the greatest public reaction will become the two that are produced in addition to the Volt.

Source (GM)

Posted by: Lyle

114 Responses to “GM Plans to Produce Two Extended Range Electric Vehicles in Addition to the Volt in 2012”

Rudi Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:38 am

Why doesn’t GM have “4-cyl, high-output turbo diesel” at the top of their priority list??

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Brian Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:45 am

According to the AP: “GM said it could need up to $30 billion from the Treasury Department, up from a previous estimate of $18 billion.” It also goes on to say the “could” repay the loans by 2017.

This is a death by a thousand cuts. GM is just going to keep coming back for more and more money now because they know they can. Most Americans are against these never-ending bailouts but our politicians are not listening to us. What can we do as private citizens to express our outrage? Boycott I guess? I really wanted a Volt, but I just can’t take this anymore.

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Paul S. Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:45 am

the lack of a pure EV will doom them to failure…..i want an EV to go 60+ miles now with no engine/generator to maintain….the weight/cost of the engine should be enough to add more battery capacity….I bet Honda will have one first….

sorry nissan is first: http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_144861.asp

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Herm Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:47 am

Pollution control of diesels, weight of the engine, cost of the fuel and cost of the engine all conspire against it. Even more costly would be a diesel hybrid.

HCCI and a cheaper battery are probably the key to the future extended range EV.

Yeah, this will be the death of one thousand cuts.. what GM needs to do is implement flexible manufacturing, much like Honda does.

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sudhaman Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:47 am

hey u idiot the point is to reduce the dependence on foreign oil .diesel is got from crude oil . GM go forward . people please buy one of this volt or some other electric car by american company. im sure that these companies use our money to save us from forex oil dependence. but then hydrogen should also be priority

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frankyB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:48 am

Good, that’s if they can pass through the next few months

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BDP Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 10:58 am

This is what America wants……

http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/fev_jan09.html

I’ll be waiting with my checkbook.

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Rudi Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:00 am

@sudhaman

Inta humar!
Where is the gasoline coming from to put in the Volt’s ICE!?

In Europe diesel technology has been explored and developed into many HO engines.

Elif air ab tizak
®

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:08 am

I’m with Paul S. at #3. Give me a revolutionary BEV. It doesn’t have to be heavy. It doesn’t need a lot of bells and whistles. It needs to get me around town.

BTW, #5 sudhaman starts off with “hey u idiot…” Is that intelligent conversing? I think it tends toward idiocy.

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omnimoeish Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:13 am

With the Converj and Volt, that would make 4. I would imagine probably a midsize SUV EREV like the Equinox or something. I don’t know what the other would be, maybe a Buick Lacrosse EREV?

Is “Lean combustion/homogenous charge compression ignition gas engines” the fuel atomizer concept we were talking about?

Does anyone know what a belt-alternator-starter-hybrid is?
What about what a Gen 3 hybrid is?

How sweet would it be to have a car with a variable valve timing, direct injection, gen 3 hybrid, that is turbo charged, with cylinder deactivation and all that other crap like a 6 speed dry dual clutch transmission mated to all that?

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k-dawg Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:18 am

I like the lineup.. good goals, but no one can predict the future..not even the immediate future.

A BEV could be in the lineup.. but only as a niche vehicle. Most of us would never be able to reliably use a BEV as our only vehicle, and I personally dont want to have to buy 2 cars.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:23 am

@Paul S. 3
“i want an EV to go 60+ miles now with no engine/generator to maintain….”

I CONCURR!

A BEV is what is needed now as well as the Volt.

Now, why the he11 is there NOT a small pickup truck for an EREV for the future?
If they come out with one that’d be my first choice. It’ll be a much more usefull vehicle hauling my shlt from the trailer park to the dumps.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, shaken not stirred…

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bbm Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:24 am

We need a EREV minivan.

Current minivans are gas hogs.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:25 am

@omnimoeish 10
“Does anyone know what a belt-alternator-starter-hybrid is?”

Ditto here…
what is that?

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Bob Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am

Herm:

The UAW won’t permit flexible plants. It woudl prevent them hitting the company below the belt by shutting down whichever plant happens to make the profitable vehicles. They can strike one plant and shut down the whole company.

The UAW is a labor contracting company with a *classic* monopoly position.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am

@omnimoeish 10
Ahh….found it….

The BAS concept is to replace the belt driven alternator with an electric motor that serve as a generator and a motor. Thus when the engine is running the motor, and acting as a generator, the system will charge a separate 36 volt battery. When the engine needs to be started, the motor then applies its torque via the accessory belt, and cranks the engine instead of using the starter motor.

http://www.hybridcars.com/types-systems/belt-alternator-starters.html

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Len Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:27 am

http://ezinearticles.com/?Belt-Alternator-Starter-Hybrid-Systems-Are-No-Longer-a-Dream&id=1595026

GM will just export assembly to Brazil if the union isn’t careful.

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Gary Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:31 am

Future technology looks promising. Now I’m expecting to see the haters who keep referring to GM’s past…

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Tim Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:36 am

Let’ me get this straight…

GM will produce 2 E-REV in addition to the volt…

“…it will need $16.6 billion in government (TAXPAYER) funds to do so.”

I have a REALLY good video “Rick” talking about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKHSAE1gIs

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SteveK Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:53 am

#2 Brian. Most Americans support these bailouts (see I can make unsubstantiated claims also) and our politicians ARE listening to us (unless you are a Republican—see SNL sketch).

I think we should definitely ’save’ GM and I also think it will work out well for the taxpayer and the nation as a whole. Not only do I think we need a couple of people in this country that make something, I do not believe the foreign auto plants are a substitute—they are basically screw-driver operations with no American research and development behind them.

The Volt is a very important step as it is the leading edge of the end of the oil age (and the beginning of the nuclear age) and it would be very disappointing if it were set back a few years.

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MetrologyFirst Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 11:54 am

I think GM’s plans are fine. They are trying to predict, invest, and build cars for a future with clearly changing technology and unpredictable resouces for a fickle public that usually wants instant gratification and are clearly spoiled to the point that if a knob falls off in a 5 year old car, they call the car crap. I wouldn’t want any part of that business.

What we need is for Americans to get off their high horse and start buying GM, Ford, and Chrysler cars again. Do something to help this country instead of complaining about everything.

And stop underestimating how difficult Voltec or BEV’s are to manufacture. Give these companies time to do it right.

Lord knows the screaming that would take place if they rushed these cars out and they were less than reliable.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

If anyone is interested, here’s a pictoral comparison of what the Opel Ampera (Caution: Not actual but sketch images) and the Volt. I can’t read the shlt, it’s in Espanol, but I can read the pictures….
LOL……

http://es.autoblog.com/2009/02/18/opel-ampera-filtrado-asi-es-el-primer-hibrido-de-opel/

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

@MetrologyFirst 21
“And stop underestimating how difficult Voltec or BEV’s are to manufacture. ”

If anyone has ever worked on a Lithium Pack, even a medium sized pack that consists of 72V, they’ll understand that configuring a BMS for the variety of climatic, stress and thermodynamics of each cell is the biggest pain in the A$s. That’s just if you didn’t care about how close you are to the threshold of the cells breakdown points. That’s ho some DIY converters do it. GM has taken the approach for the battery much differen’t. They went for a tight “Over Spec” to ensure traction battery longevity. The rest of the controls are binary managed embeded systems and te ICE is just a slave to those and the battery.
But would never really know unless they have tried to manage a BMS for a lithium pack.
Spoken from experience.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, shaken not stirred…

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Big Picture Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:10 pm

GM has to be able to get to the medium and long-term or those periods are irrelevant. Looks more and more like a government-overseen prepak BK would give them the best chance, IMHO. Way too many problems for small patches and bandaids. Fresh start desperately needed.

Or bite the bullet and liquidate. Long-term prognosis for the american auto industry is still bleak–way too much tough competition. Not a good place to invest capital.

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Tim Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Could somebody explain to me why GM needs the Opel brand when Chevy is a “global product”?

Isn’t producing the exact same car with a different headlight treatment expensive Redundancy which only increases GM costs and lengthens their tooling ROI?

Why don’t they just produce twice as many Volts instead of making both Opel and Chevy “Volts”?

Sounds like a HUGE waste of taxpayer money in a shrinking market.

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TALLPALL Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:14 pm

*** Only 650 Day’s to go ***

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Cautious Fan Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

So long term looks diesel is out and HCCI is in. I thought diesel would’ve been the way to go but I guess that was wrong.

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unni Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

#7 That was great , now i can assume the volt numbers with mixing some facts.

Plugin range of 120 mpg and 30 mile on battery on normal road conditions – How i came these numbers ??

Remember the pics on post :http://gm-volt.com/2009/02/14/chevy-volt-console-display-data-review-and-car-wont-drive-while-plugged-in/

It should be after a road test. If 4×4 can claim 100 mpg for a big SUV then its sure that Volt is at 120 mpg plugin range.The screen shots may came after a test with 1 gallon gas and fully charged battery.

logical ? If the above holds true, people may be looking on minivans and SUVs back when they come up with similar numbers and software can do wonders and optimize the power distribution( ex: truck needs real power when its loaded or towing, rest all time it needs less power etc same with SUVs also ). GM will be back in business.

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Brian Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

#20 SteveK
“Most Americans support these bailouts (see I can make unsubstantiated claims also) and our politicians ARE listening to us (unless you are a Republican—see SNL sketch).”

I’m not making unsubstantiated claims: CNN Poll 61% Oppose Auto Bailout
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/economy/automakers_poll/index.htm

And I’m not a Republican.

And beginning of the nuclear age?? Is this 1945? The nuclear age has come and gone my friend. It’s the start of the renewable power age.

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Cautious Fan Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

So GM is going to make fuel efficient cars that people want. Most companies make products people want, and somehow find a way to accomplish this on their own dime. They don’t need $30,000,000,000 to improve their own products. Why is GM so different then the rest, besides having more political power?

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DonC Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

My guess is one upscale car and one CUV. I think we’ll see some concept cars throughout this year and the pick will come from these.

#23 CaptJackSparrow says “If anyone has ever worked on a Lithium Pack, even a medium sized pack that consists of 72V, they’ll understand that configuring a BMS for the variety of climatic, stress and thermodynamics of each cell is the biggest pain in the A$s.”

With all these DIY conversions your trailer park must really be something!

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Eco Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

Metrologyfirst wrote “What we need is for Americans to get off their high horse and start buying GM, Ford, and Chrysler cars again. Do something to help this country instead of complaining about everything.”

The best GM car I ever owned was a Saturn. Guess which product line is going to get the axe?

Which is fine, because I was one of the people who stopped considering Saturn, when they stopped making them only in Spring Hill. As soon as the accountability for Saturn quality could not be attributed to a single plant, the product went downhill. GM is going to kill the only good thing they have done in my lifetime.

I spent over 10,000 dollars in maintenance and repairs trying keep a Pontiac Minivan in good working condition. Three months ago, I gave up and bought a used Nissan because every few months, I had another repair bill anywhere from 200 to a thousand dollars. My net worth is demonstrably lower because of GM workmanship, or lack thereof.

the only way I will ever buy another GM car is if the EREV drivetrain shows that I will never have to reduce my standard of living in retirement to own one.

I am so bitter about that Pontiac, GM can go broke for all I care.

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DonC Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

#29 Brian says “I’m not making unsubstantiated claims: CNN Poll 61% Oppose Auto Bailout”

Ask the question a different way and you’d get a different answer. This is not to say the CNN poll is intentionally biased, it’s just that for areas that people have so little understanding this is the way it works.

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Scott Casteel Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

UAW will kill the american auto industry just like the Steel unions killed American Steel.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

@Eco 32
“because every few months, I had another repair bill anywhere from 200 to a thousand dollars.”

Dude, ironically you just descibed my 2002 Ford Explorer…
LOL…

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

#34 Scot Casteel says
UAW will kill the american auto industry just like the Steel unions killed American Steel.
—————————————————–

Interesting that you make that connection. American Steel did not die. It is alive and doing well (though transformed). The same person who engineered the change there is now Geither’s representative to the Auto bailout talks. By reputation he is both smart and tough.

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Big Picture Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 12:59 pm

Good article on “How to bring back the Big 3″, by the most well-spoken member of the recent congressional hearing w/ the auto industry:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/17/news/companies/sachs_carmakers.fortune/index.htm

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

Page 108 of GM’s restructuring plan shows current liabilities of $188 billion. “Current liabilities” means amounts to be paid within the next calendar year. Where is this amount going to come from?

$188B is a good number to be thinking about, when thinking about the amount of government support required for GM to last just one year. While it is true that some of the $188B will come from sales, most earlier sources of funds are now gone. Mostly the $188B will have to come from the government.

It appears that GM’s concept is to ask the feds for just a couple of months at a time, rather than the whole chunk at once. I guess this is the theory “in for a dime, in for a dollar” as applied here.

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solo2500nt Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:11 pm

1: Rudi:

Diesel cars will not sell in large numbers in the U.S. Diesels are popular in Europe because of the tax inflated price of fuel.

I bought a Diesel pickup when the fuel was $0.15 cheaper than gas. Now it ranges from $0.35 to $0.80 more a gallon, effectively wiping out any long term savings of a diesel over gasoline. That hurt considering the Diesel was a $5000.00 option. I still need it for towing, but it was a wallet biter.

The second major problem is emission regulations for diesel engines now require or will require by 2010 for the owner to purchase and fill a Diesel Exhaust Fluid tank along with the fuel tank. This is a fluid that cost about 5 dollars a gallon average in small quantities and MUST be kept filled or the engine will stop. It is used to inject a vapor between the first and second catalyst . The whole systems is expensive and complicated on top of the extra expense of a diesel engine in the first place. Most consumers who are used to buying gasoline (or diesel) anywhere are not going to put up with filling and paying for, what is essentially emission mitigation fluid, esp. if it is not available at all gas stations.

Over the road truckers will have to deal with it because there is no alternative and truck stops will soon have DEF (Diesel exhaust fluid) pumps next to the diesel pumps.

So if you want a diesel you:
A: Pay a $2000.00 premium when you buy car.
B: Pay 5 dollars a gallon for DEF (Burn rate is about 3 to 5% of the diesel fuel itself).
C: Pay $0.50 more a gallon for fuel.

The numbers just don’t add up anymore. Back in 1998 I had I had a Jetta Diesel and I loved it. But I wouldn’t touch a new diesel car with a 10 foot pole.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:31 pm

hi BDP #7,

“… what America wants.”

_________________________

You have to hand it to them. They are working toward meeting the needs of the public. Good to see the progress.

Raser Rover?

=D~

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MetrologyFirst Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:35 pm

Eco @32:

Odd, I’ve driven a Pontiac Grand Am GT for 140000 miles and have spent next to nothing on repairs OR maintenance.

I also have friends who have spent thousands of dollars maintaining Camrys and Accords. I have a coworker who has a Nissan Murano and has had problems with it almost from day one. He regrets buying it.

Goes to show, no person’s experience can be projected for everyone. So your experience is irrelevant to the issues at hand, just like mine or my acquaintances. Every car company builds good cars. Especially today.

To me, this is an issue of whether Americans should be more willing or inclined to buy cars from GM, Ford or Chrysler.

For me – that answer’s easy.

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Texas Tea Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:37 pm

Black Gold is trading for $34.70 at 12:55pm EST today.

How low can we go ?

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Zach Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:51 pm

Wasn’t there a Chevy Orlando? How about that one?

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omnimoeish Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 1:52 pm

@41

A few anecdotal stories doesn’t take away from the fact that Toyota and Honda have proven themselves a million times over.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17385761/#storyContinued

Granted things are probably getting better, but people aren’t just making this stuff up. I’ve owned American, German, and Japanese (both Honda and Toyota). Toyota was the best, Honda a close second, and then American (Chevy and Chrysler) and German cars (VW, Audi and Mercedes I had) were pretty much terrible.

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D.. Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:04 pm

Is a small EREV out of the question, bigger than an aptera, something the size of a carmen ghia? …If I had my druthers…

http://evolution.loremo.com/index.php?lang=en

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

@Texas Tea 42
“Black Gold is trading for $34.70 at 12:55pm EST today.”

Then why am I paying more than $2.28/gallon?
But noooooo, there’s no price gouging right?

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ccombs Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:17 pm

#8… yeah, all 50 or so gallons the Volt will use in a year. I’m not extraordinarily concerned where they come from, since this is a pittance compared to anything else on the market (of course, except full EVs…but they are not yet feasible for the vast majority of people)

Yeah, concerning Diesel- I just don’t see it happening in the US. It is a case of environmentalism working against itself, not some vast conspiracy to deny US consumers good engines. Diesel has many advantages, but is very costly to clean up since it is a dangerous polluter (especially since it produces particulates, which are difficult to filter).

And about the relative car quality… I don’t see much of a difference now between Japanese and American nowadays. Granted, in the late 80s/early 90s, the American cars we had were crap compared to our Civic. However, at least from anecdotal evidence, this is no longer the case. My family’s 2000 Ford has had absolutely 0 problems up to now, with a ton of miles on it. Great car. The only American manufacturer I’m not so sure about is Chrysler. We had a Dodge in the late 90s and it was *terrible*. Chrysler should just die, and let GM produce the best models.

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Jackson Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

D..

No such from GM. They’re committed to one engine and battery pack for the foreseeable future. For a mini EREV, both would have to be smaller.

CaptJack:

I filled up over lunchtime for $1.76/gallon. There’s a big range of gouge- er, I mean pricing, nationwide. The difference (in contiguous 48) seems to be largely one of State taxation policies.

(I’m in Georgia).

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Brian Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:25 pm

DonC:
“Ask the question a different way and you’d get a different answer. This is not to say the CNN poll is intentionally biased, it’s just that for areas that people have so little understanding this is the way it works.”

I don’t think this is an overly technical concept to ask someone, are you for or against bailing out car companies? Other polls have shown essentially the same trends. About 2/3 oppose the bailouts. From everyone I talk to the rate is about 99% oppose so I think the polls are accurate if not conservative.

I stand by my original point: Americans are against the bailouts. So I still am wondering what we can do about it. I guess voting with your pocketbook and not buying their products is all we have left.

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Jackson Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

#32:

“GM is going to kill the only good thing they have done [Saturn] in my lifetime.”

Ditto. They stopped being Saturn when they started selling Opels.

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N Riley Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

GM needs time and money to recover or at least have a fighting chance to recover. It may happen. There could be a very big ground swell against government bail-outs coming by next summer if nothing comes of this stimulus bill but more social engineering spending. That is the majority of the current bill and that is why it will not stimulate the economy until 2011 or 2012 when the infrastructure spending finally starts to kick in. By that time it will be too late because we will see stimulus bill #2 (which is already being prepared as we speak) and stimulus bill #3 which will have to come by a little over a year from now. The stimulus bill #3 will consist of mostly direct payments to taxpayers and non-taxpayers to prepare them for the fall elections. IMO.

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

CaptJack @46
Jackson @48

$1.95/gal. at lunch today in CT (2nd highest taxes per gallon, preceded only by CA)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100733852

Someone else provided this link to us earlier today or yesterday in the previous thread (can’t take credit for it).

CT also has the 2nd highest cost of electricity (again, preceded only to CA).

Still want my Volt!!!

Where’s my Volt?!!!

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Jim in PA Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

I own an Aztek.

(I just thought I’d give people a good laugh at my expense on this otherwise dismal automotive day…)

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N Riley Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:43 pm

#50 Jackson (and others)

I pass by a Saturn dealership nearly every day. They have some very nice looking cars. I don’t know why they don”t sell better. Price is one factor. They cost as much or more than their competition and you can’t deal on price. I wish I could afford to have several new cars. If so, I would have a Saturn or two. They are very well engineered vehicles. It is too bad they have not been successful. I hope someone purchases the brand from GM and turns it into a really good “green” brand.

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Andy Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

Ah yeah baby! The fuel cell is coming back, big time it seems. Forget about pure-EV because the hydrogen economy is just around the corner!

Now I am pretty sure I´ve heard all this before… wait what? Yes it was around the time EV1 got killed. Gotta tip my hat to the guys at GM recycling the old “fuel cell in the future” propaganda. It worked back then and it sure seems to be working now. GM needs to die and quick so that somebody can come ato pick up GM´s EREV-project. And finally take it to it´s logical conclusion: the pure-EV. And now I am being serious about this.

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David L Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

#43 Zach Said:
Wasn’t there a Chevy Orlando? How about that one?
—
I’m sure hoping that the Orlando is one of the other two “additional” models. This would suit my “growing” family much better than the Volt. Also, if the Saturn brand is discontinued, the Orlando wouldn’t be directly competing against the planned plug-in Saturn Vue.

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:58 pm

N Riley @54

I also pass a Saturn dealer everyday…

The lot has been empty for months.

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Cerberbust Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

#24 Big Pix

No kidding. Buffett put some $ into BYD. The future of auto biz is not american, sad to say.

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Mike D Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

#56

GM seems to be imbuing all of the characteristics of the current Vue into the Equinox, now, and over the next several years, so when Saturn is finally killed, their best selling model will simply live under another GM skin. Maybe instead of an Orlando, we’ll see an Equinox plug-in for 2012. I would bet on that more than an Orlando, Personally.

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David L Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

CaptJack @46
Jackson @48
David K @52
—
The price gouging isn’t just in the US – the same is happening in Canada:

http://66.70.86.64/ChartServer/ch.gaschart?Country=Canada&Crude=t&Period=6&Areas=USA%20Average,Canada%20Average,&Unit=US%20$/G

I’m sure that there is no collusion going on!

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David L Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:09 pm

#59 Mike D Said:
GM seems to be imbuing all of the characteristics of the current Vue into the Equinox, now, and over the next several years, so when Saturn is finally killed, their best selling model will simply live under another GM skin.
—

I think that the the Volt and Orlando share the “delta” platform while the Equinox and Vue share the “theta” platform. That’s why I’m think that the Orlando might be the choice for making an EREV based on the Volt. I’m sure that current/future plans for the Vue will be “rolled into” the Equinox …

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Jackson Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

David K (#57)

The closest Saturn dealer to me moved out of it’s building, down the street, to a smaller building at another GM dealership. Months later, it still has a temporary banner.

Now, there’s a prominent building that says “Saturn” on it, with an empty lot, but the dealership still exists (sort of) down the street.

Meanwhile, another free-standing Saturn dealership in the Atlanta area flat-out closed it’s doors (last week) …

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MetrologyFirst Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:32 pm

omnimoeish @44:

Again, your anecdotal experience does not apply to 2009. I am relatively sure that you have not owned all of those vehicles in the last 2-3 years. It is certainly unfair to compare 1980’s GM/Chrysler’s to 2009 GM/Chrysler’s. Or 1980’s German cars to 2009. Just like the fact that my brother’s 1978 Honda Civic (which was a rolling pile of crap), has no bearing on the 2009 Honda cars.

Try to get historical bias out of the way. This is 2009. GM builds great cars today. I find VERY few people who argue that. I have never said that GM cars are better than Toyota/Honda. I think they are all about the same. Certainly close enough to allow Americans in 2009 to comfortably buy new GM/Ford/Chrysler cars, particularily considering the situation our economy is in.

I think Americans in 2009 should be inclined to buy Detroit cars. To support this country’s products and to have a stake in the outcome of Detroit and in the use of our tax dollars. Otherwise, we’ll sit back and just complain as the manufacturing base of this country evaporates and wonder were the jobs and money and tax base went.

BTW: I have no confidence in ANYTHING Consumer reports says. Unfortunately, they are the defacto source of biased info on vehicles for alot of people. I have no idea how they became the car buying gospel. I guess you can become anything you want if you hammer it in people’s heads enough.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

#10 & #14

Does anyone know what a belt-alternator-starter-hybrid is?

_______________________________________________

That is described by GM as their “Mild Hybrid” design.
Basically, you have an electric motor where the alternator used to be in the accessory belt path. Instead of the engine power running those accessories, it is done by a computer controlled electric motor. As I understand it, the design is meant to relieve the engine HP from being robbed of power by accessories, thereby increasing its fuel efficiency. I think the electric motor assists with acceleration as well.

This is from Chevy site:

The Power of Malibu Hybrid
When at a stop, Malibu Hybrid’s 36-volt nickel metal hydride battery powers the accessories, so the gas engine can shut off and save fuel.
Lift your foot off the brake, and the MGU almost instantly restarts the gasoline engine. The MGU and drive belt also provide a brief acceleration boost to help the engine get off to a smooth, seamless start.
When Malibu reaches cruising speeds and load on the engine is less, the Hybrid system’s power electronics take advantage and recharge the batteries to maximize efficiency.
When you’re starting and accelerating, the Hybrid system adds electric propulsion power to the internal combustion engine power.
When you’re coasting or braking, the Hybrid system’s regenerative braking captures your vehicle’s kinetic energy, sending it back to the battery.
Malibu Hybrid also features a cool instrument panel, including:
A charge/assist gauge: Keeps you in touch with your hybrid, letting you know when you’re drawing on the hybrid system’s battery and when you’re charging it
A fuel-saving ECO light: Lets you know when you’re exceeding EPA fuel economy estimates.(1) Use it to tune your driving habits for maximum fuel savings.
1 EPA estimated MPG 24 city/32 highway MPG for the 2008 Malibu Hybrid.

___________________________________________

Not the most efficient Hybrid design, but they can at least call it “a Hybrid”. For marketing purposes mostly.

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Jackson @62

My wife runs the office of a VW dealer and they’re happy if they sell 5 cars a month…and I think VW’s are supposedly doing the best out of all the car makers.

I’m just happy she (and me) still have a job.

She likes the silver Volt best, I like the blue.

We’re buying a Blue Volt.

Where’s my Blue Volt?!!!

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

MetrologyFirst @63

I concur wholeheartedly!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

@David K. (CT) 65
“We’re buying a Blue Volt.”

Ssssure you’re getting the Blue Volt….
;op

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BillR1 Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:43 pm

GM’s plan is to offer a range of hybrid solutions that are tailored to each buyers needs.

For someone on a limited budget, you can get a smaller car (Cruze was in the plan) with probably the low cost BAS+, which shuts off the engine at coastdown and stop, and provides some electric boost as you drive. Only a $1000 to $2000 adder, with mild mileage gains. Still ~ 40 mpg with this car.

For better mileage gain, they have the 2-mode hybrids. The Vue 2-mode is projected to get 28/31 with a ~260 hp SIDI V6. I expect the Gen 2 and 3 of these systems will go from NiMH batteries to Li-Ion, use smaller engines with direct injection, and possibly have an electric 4WD. I could see something like a Tahoe with this system getting 25/25.

The best mileage will come from E-REV. The Volt is projected to have an EPA sticker with over 100 mpg. Now let’s imagine this same system in a Tahoe (limited towing capability), with a second electric drive at the front wheels for 4WD. If this vehicle requires twice the energy per mile as the Volt, it will get only 20 miles AER, and will get 25 mpg with its range extender. Still, for the 40 mile commute, this would equate to 50 mpg!

So my contention is that we will see a range of hybrid options from GM, but also will see this applied to a whole lineup of vehicles, not just small econoboxes.

I predict that we will still see people buying SUV’s and trucks in large numbers within a few years, however, they will have much better efficiency. Technology did this for us after the energy crises of the 70’s and 80’s, and is poised to do the same now.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

GM/Chevy really needs a better marketing campaign. The Tahoe Hybrid and now the Silverado Hybrid Trucks really do work as advertised, and they drive great.

GM is NOT doing a very good job getting the word out.

(BTW- Zero Percent Financing on Tahoe Hybrid thru 03/02/09)

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Starcast Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Deisels STINK!

You get the fuel on your hands or shoes everytime you fill up. Then it gets on the floor of the car and the car STINKS for ever. I would ride a bike before a drive deisel.

Sad to see HCCI so far off.

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Big Picture Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:04 pm

Cerberbust

Great name. lol

My investment committee would have laughed me out of the room if I had proposed an investment in any of the big 3. Depending on what the government does to them, there might be some positive value remaining (right now they have negative economic value, best I can tell). The Chinese, for instance, might want to pick up some of the pieces. But maybe it’s too late even for that.

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

Capt @67

The Volt IS for me! My wife can’t even operarate my Universal TV Remote. This car will be way too complicated for her, because I’ll tell her she has to know what every display meansand what to do in response. hehehehe

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:08 pm

@CorvetteGuy 69
“The Tahoe Hybrid and now the Silverado Hybrid Trucks really do work as advertised, and they drive great.”

I’m sure you are correct, however, the tag “Hybrid” has a bar greater than 32mpg and the Tahoe and Silverado fall far well below. Their price tag of more than $45K also prices itself out of range.

I’m just wishing for a small EREV pickup, Colorado…..hint, hint…..

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, shaken not stirred…

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MetrologyFirst Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:09 pm

BillR1 @68 is on target.

It is amusing to me that so many people think that because gas is expensive, or will be, the SUV/truck market is toast. That is a markedly niave opinion. New truck purchases will be put off, perhaps, for a while if gas prices force the truck into a more use-on-demand type of ownership. Fewer truck miles per year could mean longer replacement cycles. But make no mistake, the truck market will be alive and well for the forseeable future.

People need trucks. I know very few people who have a truck that doesn’t NEED it. And I mean real trucks, not that Honda Ridgeline trucklet thing. That’s embarassing.

The question is how much more efficient will future trucks be and how long will it take. I think there will be some clever designs for real “on demand” torque and power levels, even if electrically assisted. Real trucks need load and towing capacity and there is only so much you can do even with a Voltec undercarriage. It will take awhile for Voltec to really make a difference here, at least for large vehicles.

The death of the truck is greatly exaggerated.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:12 pm

Looks like San Francisco, where the Men are Pretty and the Women are STRONG, is starting their charge station infrastructure…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/18/san-francisco-puts-electric-car-charger-in-front-of-city-hall-z/

I didn’t know the Mayor actually owned an EV1. Interesting.

I’ll take my Volt with No Generator, No ICE, shaken not stirred…

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David K. (CT) Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:24 pm

MetrologyFirst @74

When I get my Volt I will not be trading in my GMC Sierra…

130,000 miles and still runs like new
Orig. Bridgestone tires lasted 120k
Still have orig. front brake pads
I’ll think I’ll replace the spark plugs this spring even if they don’t need it

…I’ll still need it to get my US Made wood pellets (1 ton at a time) for winter heat, instead of taking delivery of imported heating oil!

Where’s my Blue Volt?!!!

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Texas Tea Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:27 pm

@ CaptJackSparrow

Price manipulation in the oil industry is rampant. At any given point in time one or more nodes in the supply chain is ripping off the consumer indirectly. After 100 years it is such a well-oiled manipulation machine it is practically an art form. No wonder congressional investigation(s) never turn up anything while everyone involved is laughing on the way to the bank.

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

#73 CaptJackSparrow says
I’m sure you are correct, however, the tag “Hybrid” has a bar greater than 32mpg and the Tahoe and Silverado fall far well below. Their price tag of more than $45K also prices itself out of range.
————————————————

More than anything else, it is the price tag. Truck purchasers tend to look at cost versus function. Moving up from the 17 mpg of a standard model has a big appeal, even if it is only to 20-25 mpg (still a lot of gas not purchased) but the price bump has to be justified. The $45K price makes a big bump, and there are not many hybrids out there on dealers’ lots.

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Frank D Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:33 pm

It’s very disappointing that GM decided not to fully support the pure EV. It is clear they want to keep the consumer trapped in having to be tied to another fuel, what ever that is. This gives me the impression they are still cooperating with large energy companies. The combination of solar panels and a plug-in electric vehicle will be more beneficial to the consumer in allowing more independence, than the same old need for fuel to propel the vehicle. I look to Tesla to and other forward thinking auto companies to break this mentality.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

… sounds like GM is diligently following their product plan that they revealed two years ago – good for them. GM will be well positioned, assuming they properly restructure.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

#73 & #78

You are both correct. The Silverado HYBRID 4×4 on my lot is $45,780 after rebates. The problem is that it has almost as much equipment on it as the fully loaded LTZ.

For some reason, GM is stuck on the idea that HYBRID buyers are LUXURY buyers ONLY! Same thing happened with last year’s Tahoe HYBRIDs… They didn’t move until after a year’s worth of discounts and heavy rebates. As soon as the price dropped $12,000 we couldn’t get them in fast enough.

They are doing the same with the VOLT. Have you guys read the list of gizmos they are including?!! And you can bet it will sticker well over $40,000. Maybe close to $50,000 by 2010.

If they would build a basic vehicle (just to prove my point) with the HYBRID system in it, I am sure it would move quickly. And that is what GM needs right now… QUICK PROFITS and lots of it.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

Price at the gas pump has gone up 10 cents in the last two weeks. Each dime of increase is another poison dart in the neck of Big Oil.

Keep it coming. That E-REV is looking better and better. Even though it will plug into my garage outlet, I’ll be thinking of you.

=D~

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Mark Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 5:34 pm

I find it interesting people saying when I get my volt, and my volt will be this or that…

Aren’t you guys interested in the price of something before you buy it? Or the deal you can get on it? Wow, you guys are a salesman’s dream.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

@CorvetteGuy 81
“For some reason, GM is stuck on the idea that HYBRID buyers are LUXURY buyers ONLY! ”

I have been pedaling my request for a “Bare Bones”, “Stripped Down Ghetto” version of the Volt….

No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No OnStar!!!

Subtract all that cr@p and you get a more affordable car. They never should have engineered all that garbage into the car.
That version, I believe, will outsell any others. I hate all those options because I own my cars for longer than the tenure of the loan. Those “Creature Comfort Options” WILL breakdown.

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DonC Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 6:37 pm

#49 Brian says “don’t think this is an overly technical concept to ask someone, are you for or against bailing out car companies? ”

Any poll question elicits different responses. They’re not asked in a vacuum. For example the question might be:

“The government is considering offering loans to GM. The loans would save or create 3.5 millions jobs and amount to less than 4% of the recently passed stimulus bill, which is intended to save or create 3.5 million jobs over the next year. Would you support those loans?”

The answer would be overwhelming “Yes.”

Or you could say: “The government is considering offering loans to GM. The loans would benefit GM management, its bondholders, its shareholders, and its workers. The cost would be born by taxpayers in case of default. Would you support these loans?”

The answer would overwhelmingly be “No.”

No reputable pollster would even think about asking the question the way you posed it. It’s obviously biased in favor of eliciting a “No” response. This would be called a “push poll”.

But even well meaning pollsters bias the responses. This is why Rasmussen reports that less than 50% of the public supports the stimulus bill but other polling firms report that up to 65% of the public supports it. Depends on how you ask the question.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

AP sources: UAW deal cuts bonuses, some raises

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090218/ap_on_bi_ge/autos_uaw

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Koz Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

DonC #85

Not to put words in your mouth, but I assume the objection to Brian’s question is “bailing out…”. If one is already biased against government assistance and “sees” it as a “bailout” then this appears prefectly legitimate and unbiased to them. Insert “secured government loans for the” and it change the poll results significantly.

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statik Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

#42 Texas Tea said:
“Black Gold is trading for $34.70 at 12:55pm EST today.”

#46 CaptJack said:
Then why am I paying more than $2.28/gallon?
But noooooo, there’s no price gouging right?

#60 David L said:
“The price gouging isn’t just in the US – the same is happening in Canada”

…and Jackson #48, and David K #52/#82
============================
I tried to lay low all day, but I keep seeing this come up so I have to wade in…as I think people want to really know what is going on.

The problem where you are getting your quotes from. People (with a lot of media help, lol) are looking at the price quote for crude at $34 and saying, why am I not paying $1.50…or less. How can the price be staying the same…or recently, going up.

Well, that $34 is the price…on West Texas Intermediate. The problem is, there is no way to get WTI across the country…there is no infrastructure in place to support that, and it would take years to set up. Basically, all the places that have access to WTI are all ‘topped up’

The ‘international spot prices’ (Brent North Sea crude, middle east/SA), basically the rest of the world (which is what you are pumping into the east coast refineries and therefore into many American cars) is actually pricing $5 to $10 more per barrel on average recently. (Historically WTI trades at a premium to other crude…but the world is upside down atm).

Brent has been trading between $44 and $48 per barrel every day (up until the last 3 or so…it just dipped under $40 for the first time today…so you are likely to see a pull back at the pumps next week now)

Past months chart on Brent:
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/fds/hi/business/market_data/commodities/28696/one_month.stm

/sorry I had to do it…apologies to the rest of the thread

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Koz Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

CaptJackSparrow #86

A little GM spin there but good info. UAW wants to wait for GM payments, bondholders want to wait for UAW, etc. All the more reason to sit them all down to an all or nothing negotiation. One time, face to face, to agree to terms or not. Of course the UAW membership would have to ratify, etc., but I don’t think they would vote to induce bankruptcy.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:43 pm

#83 Mark
I think you misundersestimate Volt Nation. We have had many price discussions. Go ahead, search this site for “price.”

When I’ve said, “When I get my Volt..,” I was fantasizing. When Volts become available, I will consider my choices. Price will factor into the decision.

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noel park Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

2012? Sorry, I just can’t see that far down the road. Sorry to drop out on you guys, but the drama is just too much for me.

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chevonly Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

In a nutshell:
Buyers will not go for a bare bones vehicle, you cannot go backwards possums,also we need to create a good biofuel from crooked polititians and bankers, remember at least GM is making something with the bailout money, already GM has revealed to much Iam sure President Fukuei from Honda is taking notes, oragato and ohio to him. Oh and China forget them the peasents will be rioting soon and the government will declare marcial law.
HAVE A NICE DAY COMRADES.

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Dave B Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:15 pm

GM needs to focus on getting the Volt out. I agree with everyone above about the backlash of going back to Uncle Sam for more money. I want a Volt–but I’ll be pissed if it doesn’t come out in 2010 and GM is demanding more money from my pocket as a taxpayer.

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

#93 Dave B said
I want a Volt–but I’ll be pissed if it doesn’t come out in 2010 and GM is demanding more money from my pocket as a taxpayer I want a Volt–but I’ll be pissed if it doesn’t come out in 2010 and GM is demanding more money from my pocket as a taxpayer
—————————————————-

Good news (smile here), you will not have to wait until 2010. GM will be back for more money again in 2009

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:37 pm

Actually we all might be better off just to wait for the fuel cell in 2015. Why do half measures? When I read about the fuel cells, I just overflowed with confidence and went out and zoomed around the block in my new Camaro.

/which of course I do not have

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:44 pm

#81 CorvetteGuy said
If they would build a basic vehicle (just to prove my point) with the HYBRID system in it, I am sure it would move quickly. And that is what GM needs right now… QUICK PROFITS and lots of it.
———————–
I agree entirely. I think they are fixated on the idea that the hybrid has to be a smaller percentage of the total, so (illogically to me) the total has to be higher.

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David L Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

#88 Statik said:
The ‘international spot prices’ (Brent North Sea crude, middle east/SA), basically the rest of the world (which is what you are pumping into the east coast refineries and therefore into many American cars) is actually pricing $5 to $10 more per barrel on average recently. (Historically WTI trades at a premium to other crude…but the world is upside down atm).
—
As a fellow Canadian, perhaps you can explain to me why we are at the mercy of ‘international spot prices’ when a lot of the oil in eastern Canada and the US midwest is coming from Alberta?
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Canada/Oil.html

Inquiring minds want to know!

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RB Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:52 pm

#85 DonC said
“The government is considering offering loans to GM. The loans would save or create 3.5 millions jobs …
—————————-
“Save 3.5 million jobs” is quite fantastical for a company that now employs less than 3 percent of that many in the US. I know it is computed by adding in all sorts of jobs held by other people working for suppliers and dealers, but that is not sensible. The number of people in supplier and sales jobs basically tracks the numbers of cars sold, not whether they are GM.

GM speaks like Charles DeGaulle — “apres moi, le deluge”. But somehow the world continued after Charles, and the USA can continue after GM, if that is what happens.

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Gas Electric Volt Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

Yes. Fuel Cells. That’s the ticket.

Makes you wonder if they are trying to waste tax payer money on purpose…

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DonC Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 9:03 pm

#63 MetrologyFirst says “BTW: I have no confidence in ANYTHING Consumer reports says”

Seems a might strong. One problem is that it’s not really a scientifically selected population, It’s all self reported.

In any event, the article at issue is a couple of years old. The head of the car testing program for Consumer Reports now says that the Ford Fusion is a more reliable car than the Toyota Camry. (I’d give you the cite for this but I can’t find it).

#87 Koz – Yes.

#88 statik says “I think people want to really know what is going on.”

Two small problems with the thesis that the diverging prices between oil and gasoline can be explained by the difference between crudes. One is that the price of gasoline in Texas is following the national pattern, and presumably gas in Texas starts out as Texas crude. Second is that the price of gasoline in NY is not tracking the price of Brent either.

You can see that by comparing your chart of Brent crude to the following spreadsheet of retail gasoline prices for the East Coast which you can find here:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 9:03 pm

hi noel park #91,

“… the drama …”

_________________________

This goes without saying. It will come down to 4 E-REV choices and 5 EV choices in 2012. Watch out for the EV Focus, Versa, Fit, or Yaris to take an early sales lead. Most students I’ve talked with say they have never spent more than $1000 for a car. The Yaris is very popular with them.

The IPOD control system of the Volt concerns me. This is attractive to the under age 25 crowd. These are the people who don’t have $33,000 to spend on a car. I am sticking with my 2008 choice of the small SUV (E-REV Cruze) as the savior car for GM.

For those who need an IPOD control panel, just plug into the WMA/MP3 aux-in CD player.

like this http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/chevy%20dash.jpg

or this http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/f150_dash.jpg

=D~

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Dan Petit Says:
February 18th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

I like what CaptnJackSparrow @84 says about a basic model.
Me too.

On another aspect of the loans to GM , if you only knew what was doled out in confidence to all the governmental agencies to fund them for projects that are, IMO, extremely stupid, (for example, these ridiculous space “defense shields”), you would consider these loans to GM to be pitifully, ridiculously, *********SMALL*******.
Excuse me for saying this this way, but we are not talking about kitchen table home economics. These extremely-wise, and, for the extreme good that they will most certainly do, these loans to GM are *******NOTHING******** compared to the vast good that this transition to our green evolution will do for us.
Of course these “tax” dollars are being put to exceptionally-great usage!! The reason that they will be properly paid back with very respectable profitability, is that
*I, the “consumer”*
am **not**
going to buy anything else,
and, I am recommending to my 98 auto repair shops (who I train regarding advanced L-1 Engine control systems diagnostics) to recommend the Voltec technology to their customers when it is time for them to buy a new vehicle. (Not that any will need great convincing to do so).
It is ALL other OEM’s whose financial bottom line is going to be at extremely dire risk *and* peril, if they do not quickly decide to follow GM’s lead, *PRECISELY* as GM is doing it. The consumer does not remain uninformed for long.

Other OEM “marketers”
*********WILL FAIL******** if they are so self-convinced that they can do ****ANYTHING DIFFERENT***** than what GM is doing, (as this is my professional advice and warning to other OEM’s, given in sincere good faith).
When GM execs state that they are “leaving all the other OEM’s ‘in the dust’ “, I remain compelled to know this to be true, based on my deeper understanding of how the processor programs of all other OEM’s function, compared to the exceptional software perfectionism contained within GM processors.
Dan Petit Austin Texas.

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Jeffhre Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 12:12 am

solo2500nt #39 ”
B: Pay 5 dollars a gallon for DEF (Burn rate is about 3 to 5% of the diesel fuel itself).”

If this is the urea injection system used in Europe I have an idea for a convenient replacement that is synthesized naturally during long trips.

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Jake Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 1:23 am

I’m sorry GM doesn’t appear to have a plan for diesel.

VW’s new 2.0 TDI engine doesn’t require any special fluids to treat the exhaust. This is more the stuff of larger diesel engines that are hitting the market in Mercedes sedans and the like. Unless the U.S. government is preparing to mandate urea injection systems for ALL new diesel engines, it appears that this is NOT a requirement for a diesel car. A smallish diesel like the VW TDI would move a Volt-sized car along just fine, no urea required. The larger engines, yes.

Oh, and there’s currently a $1300 tax credit available to the first 60,000 buyers of each new clean diesel model.

Here in NH, diesel is currently about 50 cents more expensive than gas. At the current prices, that equates to about 27% pricier. Your fuel economy in a diesel could quite conceivably be 27% better than the equivalent gas-powered car. This is obviously a local example, just one data point. But at the moment, in southern NH you could break even or come out a little bit ahead in terms of the cost of fueling the vehicle. To me, this suggests that given even a modest increase in fuel prices (as is sure to happen), diesel could quickly end up looking like an attractive option.

From an environmental standpoint, if I break even cost-wise I am happy to drive a diesel, because I am burning quite a bit less fuel and emissions are now on-par with a gasoline engine.

I’m not saying diesel is the answer to all our problems, but I am personally considering it for a future car, and I wish GM would consider people like me in their plans.

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John Bailo Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 1:49 am

Hydrogen is the only answer. Battery technology for cars as we know them just doesn’t exist. The only people rooting for plugins are the electric power companies which would love to have people leave giant batteries in every home connected to the grid, draining electricity (most of it dissipated as heat into the garage) by the kilowatthour.

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Adrian Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 8:38 am

You can have diesel and USA/Canada pumped oil with electric vehicles. We have more enough oil in our borders to get us through the next 10 years until realistic oil replacements are perfected.

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Adrian Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 8:40 am

Diesel is no dirtier than gas if filtered like VW did. If it passes CARB, we all just need to get over our silly dislike for diesel engines. IF you don’t like oil diesel, go green and use filtered french fry oil.

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jim Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 10:11 am

Hang on a minute I thought fuel cells were dead!

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Keith Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am

Adrian, you are just wrong. Diesels produce far more particulates and NOx. To sell Diesels, OEMs (like VW) will add only as much cost as is needed to just barely meet the maximum legally allowed emissions. This will just keep getting more expensive (and less fuel efficient) as the emissions requirements are tightened in the future. For gasoline engines, on the other hand, there is no particular hardware cost to keep particulates and NOx well below the legal limits; it is just a matter of how well one controls the fuel metering and spark timing.

On a separate subject: Hydrogen is a non-starter. The cost and emissions required to make, distribute, and store the stuff exceeds nearly all of the alternatives!

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Jake Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am

Diesel also produces less CO2 than the equivalent gasoline engine. The benefit increases if you run biodiesel. No they are not the cleanest engines out there but I think it’s unfair to say that the new diesels only “just barely” meet emissions requirements. That would mean that many gasoline cars “just barely” meet the minimum requirements, since the VW Jetta TDI conforms to the same standards as many gas vehicles.

It’s a wonder how Europe has survived for so long with these terrible diesels making up 50% of their automotive fleet. Come on guys, is now really the time to start rejecting such proven technology on the basis of yesterday’s stereotypes? If auto makers can produce Li-Ion electric cars I bet they can come up with some pretty refined, environmentally-friendly diesels. Just my $0.02.

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noel park Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

#110 Jake, et al:

In California, diesel cars must meet the same emissions regulations as gas cars. That is why diesels have not been available here for the last few years. The urea technology was developed to get to these standards.

It is true the smaller engines – 2 liters and under – have been able to meet these standards without the urea. The Volks TDI does not use it. Neither will the upcoming Honda diesel Accord.

In SoCal today diesel is actually cheaper than 87 octane unleaded again. As we speak, unleaded is $2.17 and diesel $2.11 at the station right across the street.

Diesel particulates from heavy equipment, trucks, tugboats and ocean going ships are an environmental disaster in SoCal. I have worked very hard on this issue, and know a bit about it. These cars, however, are much, much, better. And you are right, they do make a lot less CO2.

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Jake Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

Thanks for the comments noel park. I can imagine how larger diesel engines could cause a problem. Diesel isn’t perfect…if I ever go diesel I will think about it carefully. Certainly living someplace where the price differential was similar to CA would influence my thinking. Being a VW fan, I see their diesel engines as the only way I might ever reconcile my love of their cars and my equally powerful “green” streak. Plus I love to drive stick, something that can’t be done with most hybrids or electric cars of course.

I hope diesel finds a place in America’s green portfolio, if only for the selfish reasons listed above.

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john1701a Says:
February 19th, 2009 at 11:05 pm

Diesel is no dirtier than gas if filtered like VW did. If it passes CARB…
______________________

Meeting minimum requirements is hardly green. That’s why there are emission ratings.

Those diesels only deliver T2B5, very dirty by non-hybrid gas vehicle standards and certainly nothing to be proud of.

SULEV is where the true rating level of clean begins… which has proven cost prohibitive for diesel systems so far.

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wwskinn3 Says:
February 21st, 2009 at 6:09 pm

I want to know what this Volt Technology would do in a small 2 seater like the Saturn Sky. Anybody have any idea?

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