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Obama to Name Auto Task Force Today Not a Car Czar, and Saturn Likely to Die

February 16th, 2009 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

An Obama administration official under conditions of anonymity said the President will name a task force today to oversee the remaking of the auto industry, that will be charged on evaluating GM and Chrysler’s restructuring plan over the next six weeks. These plans are due tomorrow, and include an emergency request for $3 billion from Chrysler.

This anonymous official said “The administration understands the importance of the American auto industry. It wants to work with these companies as they seek to become viable and thriving businesses. But we’re also clear-eyed about the magnitude of the restructuring going forward.”

The task force will include members from the Departments of Treasury, Labor, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy, the National Economic Council, the White House Office of Energy and Environment, the Council of Economic Advisers and the Environmental Protection Agency, the official said. It will be overseen by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and NEC Director Larry Summers.

The White House will not appoint a “car czar,” the official said.

Obama’s chief adviser David Axelrod signaled that the administration is willing to help the automakers stating on NBCs Meet The Press, “We need an auto industry in this country, There are millions of lives, livelihoods that depend on it. Not just at the auto companies, but spin-off manufacturers, dealers and so on. So we have a real interest in seeing the auto industry survive.”

Even Obama himself stated last week he’s prepared to “offer serious help” to the automakers so long as they did their part to meet restructuring goals.

On a related note, Bob Lutz told Automotive News that a sacrifice of Saturn appear likely to be part of GMs plan. He said “My personal favorite would be to see Saturn survive and prosper, but frankly, the reality is that that is probably not going to be the outcome.”

He also added: “We spent a huge bundle of money in giving Saturn an absolutely no-excuses product lineup, top to bottom. They had a better and fresher lineup than any GM division, and the sales just never materialized. So we have to act on that. It’s our duty.”

Source (Detroit Press) and (Automotive News)

[UPDATE 4:50 PM EST: Obama Press Secretary confirms Presidential Task Force on Autos]

Posted by: Lyle

155 Responses to “Obama to Name Auto Task Force Today Not a Car Czar, and Saturn Likely to Die”


  1. Jim I
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim I     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:33 am

    Now that “nationalization” is on the table for the banking industry, how long will it be before it becomes the discussion for the auto industry???

    This scares me to death…..

    Does anyone really belive that our 535 elected representatives could really run any business?????

    As far as Saturn, GM will fold the brand name, but the successful models will just be moved into other divisions.  

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  2. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:37 am

    March 31st. That’s the real shwodown date. Mid February is just a status check.

    Yes, Saturn will go, along with Hummer, and Saab. But that still leaves too many brands. Chevy, Cadillac, and Buick are safe. It’s a good bet either GMC or Pontiac will go also.

    And all this still ignores the fact that Chrysler wants GM to buy them.  

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  3. Schmeltz
    Vote -1 Vote +1Schmeltz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:49 am

    This makes me sad about Saturn as I think too it would be a profitable division at some point. I understand though that GM can’t afford to play the “waiting game” anymore either. I think if I were GM, I would terminate SAAB, Saturn, Hummer, and Pontiac, totally. They are most likely not going to find any buyers for any of them. I feel bad for the many people that would be layed off as a result, but I don’t know there is a choice anymore. 2009 is going to be a rough year.  

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  4. Gsned57
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gsned57     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:49 am

    Because of the Volt I got interested in learning about GM’s products. 3 of my favorites are the Sky, Aura, and the Vue. I’m still in the NPNS boat so i won’t be buying any of them, but GM did a lot to convince me that American car manufacturers can make an attractive car that younger Americans would buy. I have to agree with Jim I that these cars (maybe not the sky) will get rolled over into another division. I just hope they don’t go back to making nothing but old man boats with the style of a brick.  

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  5. NZDavid
    Vote -1 Vote +1NZDavid     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:56 am

    GSB is the way.

    Bondholders get 20 cents in the dollar.
    Shareholders diluted to 20% with govt getting 80% for new cash.
    Govt takes over VEBA and gives it a chunk of their shares.
    UAW 2010 contract brought forward one year.

    Uncle Hugo C. blamed for everything, crash program to build E-REVs, etc to achieve energy independence.

    Similar deal for Chrysler / Ford.

    PS: Toyota looking at a SAAR of ONLY 7.6 million this year. That is well below GM’s worst case prediction in November’s plan. IIRC it was breakeven at 10.5 million.

    So when do we get the Roadster review Lyle?  

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  6. Van
    Vote -1 Vote +1Van     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:08 am

    Maybe the Plug-in Vue will migrate to Buick, with Chevy having the Volt, and Caddy the Converj, that will provide balance. LOL All this conjecture really is like rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

    GM does not need a task-force to diffuse the blame, or government bureaucrats to mandate fixes. It needs a new business model that accepts quality as its lifeline and adequate rear seat head and leg room as design necessities.  

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  7. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:17 am

    Even the EX Soviet KGP head is warning us about Comrade Obama’s move to Socialism.

    “Russian Prime Minister Vladamir Putin said the US should take a lesson from the pages of Russian history and not exercise “excessive intervention in economic activity and blind faith in the state’s omnipotence”.

    “In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” Putin said during a speech at the opening ceremony of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”

    Read the rest here:

    http://www.therightperspective.org/?p=1472  

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  8. charlie h
    Vote -1 Vote +1charlie h     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:19 am

    The Plug-in Vue is just a badge-engineered something else, so killing Saturn doesn’t really kill the project.

    ======

    Nothing spells out GM’s doom quite like Saturn. Flip back 15 years and Saturn is the car company that everybody sees as offering the alternative to the Corolla. What vehicle in Saturn’s lineup today goes up against the Corolla? Nothing.

    Flip back 15 years and how do people identify Saturn? Practical little (American) cars with plastic body panels. Today? No such thing.

    GM even ran ads of people going into a Saturn dealer and saying, “That’s a Saturn?” The problem was, the ad wasn’t funny. Nobody could identify Saturn any more.

    I know people who currently own Saturns. They don’t know what their next car wll be. Every one said, “No more plastic body panels?” That was one of the truly unique things about Saturn, the one thing that could generate repeast business and it’s gone.

    Bob Lutz said, “We spent a huge bundle of money in giving Saturn an absolutely no-excuses product lineup, top to bottom. They had a better and fresher lineup than any GM division, and the sales just never materialized. So we have to act on that. It’s our duty.”

    In other words, GM spend $$$$ building the WRONG CARS for Saturn, and wasted all that money only to wreck the brand and end up kiling Saturn, anyway.

    This is why GM is in trouble… the leadership has been systematically wrecking the company for decades.  

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  9. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:27 am

    #1 Jim I – I am totally in agreement that elected politicians are generally as dumb as a box of rocks. But politicians would not be running anything that is nationalized; professional technocrats would be. And I would have at least as much faith in that as with the dimwits that have destroyed our auto and financial institutions. Seriously, could a chimpanzee in a suit and tie have done worse than these private sector wiz-kids? Probably not.

    I don’t think the problem is govt-vs.-private. I think that we as Americans have just lost the ability to think sensibly and think big. Every risk is balanced against quarterly reports or losing elections. It’s a downward spiral we have to pull ourselves out of.  

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  10. vincent
    Vote -1 Vote +1vincent     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:29 am

    Take the best of Saturn and umbrella it under Chevy  

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  11. Shawn Marshall
    Vote -1 Vote +1Shawn Marshall     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:30 am

    Very sad times.  

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  12. BillR1
    Vote -1 Vote +1BillR1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    Somewhat off topic, but an interesting note:

    A few days ago I posted this comment
    ———————————————–

    In one interview, Bob Boniface stated that the Volt would have the 2nd best Cd of any GM production vehicle (meaning that the EV1 would still be #1 with a Cd of 0.195).

    So we know it will be greater than 0.195.

    However, here is a link regarding the new Opel Insignia, which will have a Cd of 0.26.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/02/paris-2008-debut-of-the-opel-insignia-ecoflex/

    Therefore, I would conclude that the Volt’s Cd is somewhere between 0.195 and 0.26.

    ——————————————

    This attached link includes a podcast interview with Greg Cesiel, the Program Director for the Chevy Volt.

    http://greenmonk.net/greenmonk-talks-to-general-motors-about-the-chevrolet-volt/

    At 12:40 in the program, he is asked about the Volt’s drag coefficient. He states that while they haven’t released an official number, it will be “one of the most aerodynamically efficient vehicles out there”. When asked how it compares to the EV1 and its low drag coefficient, he states “…not quite as low as the EV1, but close.”  

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  13. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:34 am

    #7 Tim – Oh please tell me that we are not taking economics advice from Vlad Putin. His opinion is of little value unless we want to better learn how to raid the public coffers to enrich a few select friends, crush all true competitive capitalism, and then start assassinating dissenting journalists. The modern Russian model is not one for real capitalism; it is a roadmap for oligarchy. If you have legitimate complaints about the current administration then by all means air them. But don’t peddle insanity.  

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  14. Dave B
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave B     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:38 am

    Ditto Shaw @ 11, very sad times. I agree.

    I would much prefer government just make 40 billion in purchases from Chevy rather than taking ownership or control. Why not order 40 billion in Volts? That’s one way to ramp up demand for EVs… Give one to every tax payer as a rebate. Poof, we’re oil independent, we’d have saved the auto industry, and we could bring our troops home. The next problem would be paying for all of that damn debt rather than tackling all problems at once…  

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  15. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:42 am

    Sure, fold Saturn into Chevy. But the following actions will be needed:

    1.) No need for both the Chevy Equinox and Saturn Vue. Kill the Equinox, the Vue is better.
    2.) No need for both the Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aurora. Kill the Aurora, the Malibu has more exposure and great reviews (granted, the Aurora has good reviews also).
    3.) No market for the money-losing Sky. Kill it. (but it sure was a sweet car).
    4.) No need for both the Saturn Outlook and Chevy Traverse. They are nearly identical. The Traverse looks nicer. Kill the Outlook.

    At the end of the day, Chevy will wind up with a far better compact SUV and that is about it.  

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  16. MarkinWI
    Vote -1 Vote +1MarkinWI     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:53 am

    To Jim in PA @15’s list, I would add that the Saturn Astra is simply a re-badged GM-Euro. It can be imported as a Chevy if it will sell, or dumped. Don’t get me wrong, I liked Saturn, and I and family members have owned them and loved them. But the point of Saturn was to prove that GM could do something innovative. The fact that the Volt was coming as a Chevy instead of a Saturn was the handwriting on the wall to me. As far as Saturn failing with an all-star line-up goes, well, I can remember more Hummer commercials than Saturn commercials.  

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  17. NZDavid
    Vote -1 Vote +1NZDavid     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:53 am

    The Volt will survive, because at the end of the day it will be politics that decide.

    Headline # 1
    President uses 5% of bailout funds to rescue car industry.

    Headline #2
    US car industry dies under current administration.

    I really think the shock to the American Psyche will be too great for any politician to allow headline #2 to eventuate.

    EDIT: GSB would also be very effective in killing off unwanted brands while stiffing the dealerships involved.  

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  18. D Lo
    Vote -1 Vote +1D Lo     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:57 am

    Perhaps GM can give creditors the assets of Pontiac, Saab, Hummer and Saturn in exchange for considerable swaths of debt.
    Which leaves the UAW. I’d suggest they get the same as the white collar worker–a 7% wage cut, a 15% reduction in staff for continued operations, elimination of any “fringe” benefit such as tuition reimbursement, adoption assistance and 401k match. In my opinion, the pension program should be FULLY funded by GM, then frozen.

    The UAW should consider buying Chrysler, in a non-cash deal like with Fiat, and proving the skeptics wrong.  

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  19. kent beuchert
    Vote -1 Vote +1kent beuchert     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:01 am

    If Obama really undestands the need for an American auto industry, he also should reasonably be expected to understand what’s required for its survival. Its lower wage rates from its unskilled workers, who, thanks to Obama-supporting unions, have strangled their employer for the past 40 years, reducing what was the world’s greatest automakers into beggars for govt handouts. How about Wagoner doing his job and standing up for his company and its millions of victimized shareholders, rather than the UAW pirates?
    You don’t create a more viable company by downsizing and losing efficiencies of mass production. Small automakers are doomed, and always have been.  

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  20. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Obama’s chief adviser David Axelrod signaled that the administration is willing to help the automakers stating on NBCs Meet The Press, “We need an auto industry in this country, There are millions of lives, livelihoods that depend on it. Not just at the auto companies, but spin-off manufacturers, dealers and so on. So we have a real interest in seeing the auto industry survive.”
    Even Obama himself stated last week he’s prepared to “offer serious help” to the automakers so long as they did their part to meet restructuring goals.
    ————————————————————

    Anybody who has purchased GM debt will read this quotation carefully and conclude that there is no reason to concede anything to GM corporate. The message is “hold on, don’t convert to stock. The Obama administration will bail out the debt holders.”

    This situation illustrates the big downside to government intervention. The government does not just “help” deal with a fixed situation. Rather, the likelihood of intervention markedly changes the behavior of all the parties in any prior negotiation.  

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  21. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:28 am

    No Saturn? No GM. Saturn was the one place you could go in the GM universe and be fairly confident of not being screwed over. I became interested in GM because of Saturn (I’ve had 2 SL2’s).

    And yes, when the plastic panels went away, the brand became instantly less interesting to me; and I began referring to it as “American Opel.”

    Here’s the deal, GM. If you can take whatever is left by this time next year and make it like Saturn, “no excuses product line” and no dealer horse-trade dickering, you can get over having axed Saturn. If you fail to do that, you’re doomed.  

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  22. Adrian
    Vote -1 Vote +1Adrian     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    The government would run the auto industry into the toilet. Very sad days. This could mean Ford will become the best Auto company. The government should just let GM file Ch11 and restructure. Labor rates, health insurance plans, and all the other baggage (top to bottom) must be restructured ASAP before I would give GM another dollar.  

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  23. Adrian
    Vote -1 Vote +1Adrian     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:43 am

    In the end, it would be nice to see Obama do what Reagan did in his first years when confronted with a unyielding union willing to cripple an industry the US needed running.

    Too bad the Unions and Obama are ‘bed buddies’ and he would never do this.  

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  24. Cautious Fan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Cautious Fan     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:45 am

    The rest of the world is bailing out their automakers too (see link). So rather then seeing capacity shrink by 25% and pricing power restored to the healthy, some rotting corpses are going to be kept on life support for a while, consuming valuable resources that should be reallocated withing the economy. But I guess since everyone is doing it, it must be OK. Or maybe it just means the global automotive industry has political muscle.

    http://www.economist.com/world/international/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13057275  

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  25. Guy Incognito
    Vote -1 Vote +1Guy Incognito     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:48 am

    If they were making soup, I wonder how it would taste?

    “The task force will include members from the Departments of:
    -Treasury
    -Labor
    -Transportation
    -Commerce
    -Energy
    -The National Economic Council
    -The White House Office of Energy & Environment
    -The Council of Economic Advisers
    -The Environmental Protection Agency”

    All to be overseen by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner & NEC Director Larry Summers.  

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  26. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Maximum Bob is quoted as saying He also added: “We spent a huge bundle of money in giving Saturn an absolutely no-excuses product lineup, top to bottom. They had a better and fresher lineup than any GM division, and the sales just never materialized. So we have to act on that. It’s our duty.”
    ——————————————————

    There is some other information that also is pertinent that makes Saturn vulnerable.

    Saturn is a subsidiary corporation, not an integrated part of GM. GM can let it go with much less organization complexity than with the integrated parts.  

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  27. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    “An Obama administration official under conditions of anonymity said the President will name a task force today to oversee the remaking of the auto industry….”
    ___________________________________________________

    “Capitalists are no more capable of self-sacrifice than a man is capable of lifting himself up by his own bootstraps.”
    Vladimir Lenin  

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  28. Roger Dawtry
    Vote -1 Vote +1Roger Dawtry     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am

    They need to shut down more than Saturn. The only thing left standing in the U.S. should be Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC (all trucks). Anything more shows they are not really serious and are probably thinking about being number one in sales again (that will never happen, so get over it). I look for Toyota to be crowned the King and Volkswagen most likely queen. That leaves GM a distant 3rd in global auto sales. They will have enough on their plate just to try a maintain third place. BTW, the economy has nothing to do with this, it is extremely poor planning by upper management, 100 percent.  

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  29. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:57 am

    #25 Guy Incognito says
    If they were making soup, I wonder how it would taste?
    [list names]
    All to be overseen by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner & NEC Director Larry Summers.
    ——————————————————-

    My interpretation of the list is that Tim Geithner as head of the committee is in effect the car czar. For GM that is good news, because Geithner is a person who thinks and works with big bucks. For Geithner $10B is “little money.” Geither’s honcho Summers is aggressive (pushy), so he is a good #2 for Geithner, who is smart but more soft spoken. They will be loyal to Obama, who already has indicated his leanings, and what Geithner and Summers decide is likely to happen. All the others are sources of information, or window dressing.  

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  30. Nelson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Nelson     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Creating the Plug-in Two mode VUE Hybrid and not selling it is not what I call “giving Saturn an absolutely no-excuses product lineup”. If anything promising a great product like that tells potential buyers to wait for it, killing sales.

    NPNS!  

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  31. old man
    Vote -1 Vote +1old man     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:02 am

    #21
    No horse-trade bickering is why the vast majority of people I know never considered Saturn. I fail to understand why anyone would be willing to pay full price for a car with out putting up any form of price resistance. It was tried as a last breath effort for Oldsmobile and ended up being the quick nail of death not breath.  

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  32. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:03 am

    #28 Roger Dawtry says
    They need to shut down more than Saturn. The only thing left standing in the U.S. should be Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC (all trucks).
    ———————————————

    You may be right for the longer term, but in the present all that matters is the debt. Will the debt holders convert to stock, or will the government make the payments to them? If neither happens GM goes to Chapter something.

    (FWIW, my guess is that the government will pay.)  

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  33. Cautious Fan
    Vote -1 Vote +1Cautious Fan     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:15 am

    #9 Jim in PA

    I few counter examples regarding the efficiency of technical autocrats.

    1) IRS agents are dumber then tax accountants – I’ve worked with both
    2) Gov’t auditors of food plants are dumber then industry auditors – My dad is the QC manager of a plant
    3) USPS is slower and more expensive then FedEx or UPS
    4) Gov’t research facilities are less efficient then industry R&D – I’ve worked in both

    Regarding your assertion that gov’t run automakers would’ve been better, I think history has closed the book on that argument. But if you’re unconvinced, you may still purchase a GAZ-3102 and show the world it’s oversight.

    Here’s the problem gov’t faces. If you’re smart and good at your job, why would you work for the gov’t, when you can go make far more money in private industry. On top of this, how do you run your operation using business principles, when your boss is a politician. Incentives are misagligned. The failure of the automakers doesn’t mean gov’t would’ve done better. That’s a red herring, because historically, gov’t run businesses have done far far worse.  

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  34. nataraj
    Vote -1 Vote +1nataraj     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:31 am

    After the utter collapse of the “free market” doctrine – to see people still professing blind faith in it is distressing. I guess it is difficult to give up on ideologies …  

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  35. Schmeltz
    Vote -1 Vote +1Schmeltz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Where’s Statik this morning??? Maybe he’s holding out for Tuesday’s thread of “As the Auto World turns”?

    I was reading this morning on Motor Trend that GM could potentially propose filing their “toxic brands” under bankruptcy protection, and the remaining “core brands”, i.e. Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick, GMC, would be folded into a separate Company so to speak. Any one else read that or know how that would go down?  

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  36. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    #33 Cautious Fan says “how do you run your operation using business principles, when your boss is a politician. Incentives are misagligned.”

    Basically you don’t. But no one is talking about the government running banks or car companies on anything but a temporary basis. The US did nationalize banks during the Reagan Administration. They didn’t call it that, they called them “Bridge Banks” or some other euphemism.

    For the banks they got rid of management, sold off the good assets, and ate the bad assets. It was expensive but far cheaper than the alternative of Zombie banks. As it turned out, it was fairly easy to find people to run banks. We need to do that again instead of being afraid of mentioning the “N” word.

    For the car companies you have to get rid of management, restructure the union contracts, wipe out the shareholders, give the bondholders a haircut, and downsize capacity.

    I believe, however, that we will continue to have chronic overcapacity in the auto industry. Too many governments — in the US the states are the worst offenders — throwing too much money encouraging expansion. It will get worse with EVs because they are much simpler to build so the barriers to entry will be lower. Every country in the world wants an auto industry. You can’t blame them but collectively it’s a recipe for disaster.

    Nice cite to the Economist article. BTW, there are many counter examples to your counter examples. Just on the first one: Several empirical studies demonstrate that IRS employees do a better job than contractors at collecting taxes owed. IOW they cost less, bring in more, and follow the rules better than their private sector brothers. Rather than being doctrinaire about the issue it’s better to evaluate what works in what situations. The answer isn’t always the same.  

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  37. Jason
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jason     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:46 am

    “The government would run the auto industry into the toilet.”

    As opposed to how well they have done on their own? Ha, this gave me a good laugh this morning.  

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  38. Steve K
    Vote -1 Vote +1Steve K     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:49 am

    #9 Could not have said it better myself.

    #23 It was Reagan that started us on the path we have now completed. Next time you are enjoying your weekend off, you might think about why there is such a thing as weekends off (hint: the evil unions).

    Unions did become too powerful for a while, but laissez-faire capitalism has no place for a middle class.  

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  39. Dave G
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave G     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    #19 kent beuchert Says: “How about Wagoner doing his job and standing up for his company and its millions of victimized shareholders, rather than the UAW pirates?”
    ————————————————————————————–
    Please don’t use the UAW as the scapegoat for all of GM’s problems. Yes, the UAW is part of the problem, but they are not the main problem, not by a long shot. The UAW has stated that if they worked for free, GM would still be in trouble, and nobody has challenged them on that.  

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  40. Alejandro
    Vote -1 Vote +1Alejandro     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:55 am

    If it is as Jim I says that they are only going to get rid of the brand name, but keep all the models, I take my hat off to them. I’ve always believed that one reason why Toyota, Nissan, Honda, or any other foreign carmaker for that matter have had so much success (other than delivering great products), is because for so long they had only one brand. Yes, I know that Nissan has Infiniti, Honda has Acura, and Toyota has Lexus, but those are only one much distinctive and top of the line brands.
    I think that maybe when people see certain brand name all the time, everywhere, it unconsciously creates brand loyalty, people start thinking that company is successful, and…. since we all want to be with the number one. You see Toyota cars much more than you see Chevys even though GM is still bigger than Toyota in the U.S.
    In summary, I just think that having so many brands was very bad PR in the first place.
    Please tell me what your thoughts are about this. Maybe I am totally off the track; I would appreciate your comments.
    Sincerely,
    Alejandro  

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  41. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    #35 Schmeltz said:
    “Where’s Statik this morning??? Maybe he’s holding out for Tuesday’s thread of “As the Auto World turns”?”
    ———————
    Lol…not really much to wade in on here. But if you want me to Schmeltz I can mix it up a bit.

    Note to other posters, blame Schmeltz for my next post, hehe.  

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  42. D..
    Vote -1 Vote +1D..     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    #34, #37,

    Word.  

    (Quote)


  43. Gary
    Vote -1 Vote +1Gary     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:15 am

    “The task force will include members from the Departments of Treasury, Labor, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy, the National Economic Council, the White House Office of Energy and Environment, the Council of Economic Advisers and the Environmental Protection Agency, the official said.”

    Oh great. Decision by committee. Isn’t that what many have said that put GM’s product offerings in the toilet until Bob Lutz came in to the picture? There should be someone in that committee from the Department of Gotta Have It–as Bob Lutz did with the GM’s lineup.

    “They [Saturn] had a better and fresher lineup than any GM division, and the sales just never materialized.”

    Unfortunately, few people saw any advertisements or marketing for Saturn. I sure didn’t see much. With Toyota’s new Venza, I see ads on TV, received flyer inserts in my local paper, and more. I’ve already seen a handful in town here and it hasn’t been out long. The Malibu has done relatively well with a huge marketing campaign, even though it’s very similar to the Saturn Aura. It would be sad to see the Saturn brand go, but if it keeps more marketing dollars for GM’s other more established divisions, so be it.  

    (Quote)


  44. Ksuhwail
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ksuhwail     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Originally Saturn and Opel were getting chummy and they were going to share 90% of their vehicles. It is now apparent that Opel and Buick are going to get chummy and share a great deal. Since Buick is in direct competition with Lexus, I expect the Vue plug-in to move to Buick. This would be a much nicer option to the Lexus RX-400h.  

    (Quote)


  45. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Setting of priorities has always been a serious problem, where GM quarrels among its own divisions for resources.

    Honda’s new Insight is a great example, taking more orders already than total hybrids sales by GM for all of last year.

    Volt doesn’t stand a chance unless a unified message and clear goals are declared. The wishy-washy pricing and availability plan combined with mixed messages about interior features leaves far too many wondering what will really be pursued when the time comes.  

    (Quote)


  46. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:29 am

    …friggin Bob Lutz

    “We spent a huge bundle of money in giving Saturn an absolutely no-excuses product lineup, top to bottom. They had a better and fresher lineup than any GM division, and the sales just never materialized”

    I like this further quote from the automotive news article about what went wrong (that isn’t in the thread header),

    “The fact is we don’t have the time or the resources to take 10 years to figure it out and possibly turn it around.”

    So what you are saying, is that you spent all this time as the ‘global development’ guy, knowingly churning out loser after loser, into a dead end brand, right up to bankruptcy, because you had no clue then what was wrong…and you still don’t? Did I get that right?

    And now, only when the gov’t is thinking about bailing you out you say, “I dunno why it didn’t work all this time, but it has to die now…and the gov’t has to foot the bill to make it go away”

    THIS is why Bob Lutz is a terrible exec in this new economy. This is why he should never have come to GM…and one of the main reasons Wagoner needs to go as well, because he put the entire company in the hands of a delusional man who thought he could run it like it was still 1958, smoke cigars wherever he likes, and make insensitive remarks about…well just about anything he feels like, whenever he feels like.

    Lutz was the face you associated with GM. He did nothing but reinforce the image that GM was a wandering, out of touch, bloated whale. What gets to me, is after it is all said and done, he accepts no responsibility for anything.

    Ironically, his two babys (Saturn and Pontiac) he came to put his ’special revitalizing’ touches on, now both have to die first.

    /80 million dollars of payroll well spent
    //all because he is a really cool guy, the kind you want to hang out with
    ==========================
    Side note: long live my baby, the GSB in 2009!

    /blame Schmeltz  

    (Quote)


  47. TALLPALL
    Vote -1 Vote +1TALLPALL     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    ***652 Day’s to go ***  

    (Quote)


  48. unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1unni     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Obama now runs a Cadi. May be, it broke and back to dealer, that may be he is unhappy :-)

    Question remains is in EV revolution time GM gets its stake or not, if they come up with Vlt they get an upper hand, else Toyota will come up with a plug in prius and Honda with a plug in insight. Even Honda may come up with another model ( they said they achieved very high mpg with the insight research but cost factor decision made to go with insight, now as plug ins have tax rebate , they will come up with the other technology).

    Dinosaurs got destroyed in some part of evolution, the ones which adapted are still alive.  

    (Quote)


  49. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:52 am

    #46 statik

    Don’t mind me…that was just a rant I had to get rid of. That guy drives me crazy.

    /I promise to move on now, lol.  

    (Quote)


  50. JB
    Vote -1 Vote +1JB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:59 am

    Don’t Saturns as a whole get better MPG than most of the rest of GM’s lineup?  

    (Quote)


  51. Schmeltz
    Vote -1 Vote +1Schmeltz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    @#46 Statik:
    “…blame Schmeltz” LOL!

    I am the gasoline and you are the fire–dude! Somehow I just knew an anti-Bob Lutz explosion was brewing and I am happy to have opened the door for that stress relieving diatribe Statik! Now, don’t you feel better? :)   

    (Quote)


  52. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    #17 NZDavid:

    Judging by the fact that at least 8 out of 10 late model cars in my SoCal community are made by Japanese, Korean, or German companies, I conclude that the “American Psyche” doesn’t give a damn if the US auto industry lives or dies. If it dies, with the resulting further downward spiral of our economy, they will most likely never even make the connection.

    #49 statik:

    Don’t apologize. God’s truth, IMHO.  

    (Quote)


  53. Benjamin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Benjamin     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

    #52
    “Judging by the fact that at least 8 out of 10 late model cars in my SoCal community are made by Japanese, Korean, or German companies, I conclude that the “American Psyche” doesn’t give a damn if the US auto industry lives or dies. If it dies, with the resulting further downward spiral of our economy, they will most likely never even make the connection.”

    I think you are dead on with this comment. Where a car is made has never factored into my purchasing decision before and never will. Whoever builds the best car at the best price gets my money, plain and simple.  

    (Quote)


  54. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    A committee to decide which brands and models survive? And the people on the committee have no car industry experience?

    It reminds me of The Simpsons episode where Homer’s long lost brother puts him in charge of designing the next model for the ‘everyman’ at his far factory.

    “The Homer”.

    The industry is doomed.  

    (Quote)


  55. Dave K. =D~
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave K. =D~     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Restructuring can be a good thing.

    This is the time to look at sales numbers and public polls regarding all vehicles. Chevy vans have always been popular. Silverado is a strong seller. Most Cadillac models are popular. Saturn plug-in is a winner. And the Volt is the topic of most dinners I have attended for the last six months.

    The Pontiac models are not a strong suit for GM. Hummer sales will sink as fuel prices rise. The Cruze can replace the Cobalt and the Aveo.

    And please give the world a Lee Iaccoca style speech concerning a re-dedication to quality and a sincere flexibility in meeting the needs of the customer. Teach your employees the importance of politeness and appearance. Cultivate positive word of mouth. Shine in Consumer Report reviews.

    I would also consider a new name. GM LLC or GM Inc just doesn’t cut it.

    =D~  

    (Quote)


  56. GXT
    Vote -1 Vote +1GXT     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:43 pm

    I like to think that anyone who supported the Volt in their own special way helped to sink GM. Truly it was an amazing waste to put so much effort into a non-profitable niche-vehicle years away from production that was already clearly going to make no sense for the vast majority of drivers.

    If so many “yes men” hadn’t responded to GM’s PR stunt so favourably then perhaps GM would have done something that was actually positive instead of “pretend positive”.

    It is stunning to see something as simple as the Insight so utterly destroy the Volt in so many ways. And with so little fanfare! But that is GM in a nutshell.  

    (Quote)


  57. CorvetteGuy
    Vote -1 Vote +1CorvetteGuy     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    #56 GXT

    Truly it was an amazing waste to put so much effort into a non-profitable niche-vehicle years away from production that was already clearly going to make no sense for the vast majority of drivers.
    _________________________________________

    You need to convince the 10,000 + people on the VOLT waiting list to buy a new Camaro this summer. Those are profitable. Then maybe they might have a little pocket change to keep going another month or two.  

    (Quote)


  58. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

  59. Aspherical
    Vote -1 Vote +1Aspherical     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    #54 CorvetteGuy

    “It reminds me of The Simpsons episode where Homer’s long lost brother puts him in charge of designing the next model for the ‘everyman’ at his far factory. “The Homer”.”

    Instead, the next car for the masses will be named “The Pelosi”, or in some circles known as “The Pe-lousy”…  

    (Quote)


  60. Bruce
    Vote -1 Vote +1Bruce     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    I have a Saturn Vue-2 months old. I love it. Now what I am going to do without service if there is no Saturn??? Is GM backing up their cars?? PANIC!!!  

    (Quote)


  61. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    If you happen to visit Monticello today, you’ll notice a distinct “whirring sound”. That’s Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave.

    Of course, he’s been spinning for a while now. The rpm’s just picked up some today.  

    (Quote)


  62. BigCityCat
    Vote -1 Vote +1BigCityCat     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    The socialists in America trust the Govt. to create a Utopian society. They have faith in Govt.. Socialism is very bad at innovation. All the great strides in technology were brought on by people who could profit from good ideas. Socialism will put a stop to all of this. We will degenerate in areas of innovation with the Commissars running our lives. The Govt. will spend more money than it takes in. It will print money to make up the difference. It will destroy the value of our currency and then it will have to renege on it’s promises.

    Man made global warming is a lie of big Govt. and a way for the Govt. to take on more control. People believe it as fact because they were educated in Govt. schools and they believe the Establishment media. I think anyone who believes in man made global warming is a complete moron.  

    (Quote)


  63. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    #46 statik gives laudatory comments on Maximum Bob Lutz
    ———————————————————————

    Are you campaigning for the pink tie award?  

    (Quote)


  64. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    #56 GXT said
    I like to think that anyone who supported the Volt in their own special way helped to sink GM. Truly it was an amazing waste to put so much effort into a non-profitable niche-vehicle years away from production that was already clearly going to make no sense for the vast majority of drivers.
    ——————————————————————–

    Quite the contrary, it seems to me. The Volt is the symbolic vehicle that gained GM the first round of federal bailouts, maybe $20B by now counting the special production funds. That is far more profitable than any other vehicle in the line.

    I am not joking. To get federal funds, GM has to offer hope and promise. That is achieved by electric vehicles and in particular the Volt, not by Silverado trucks, however much more useful they might be.

    Maybe not in the past, maybe not in the future, but in the present time period the most important customer is the federal government. The product and the pitch has to be in that direction. That product and pitch is the Volt, the Convergj, and a stable of electric cars.  

    (Quote)


  65. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    #54 Corvette Guy says
    A committee to decide which brands and models survive? And the people on the committee have no car industry experience?
    ———————————————————–

    The committee chair has worlds of experience with big piles of government money, and the committee co-chair cannot be talked down. These are the critical strengths.  

    (Quote)


  66. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    #46 statik showers love on Maximum Bob

    It certainly says quite a bit when the creative inspiration for your company is 76 years old. But hey, it worked for Frank Lloyd Wright.

    Looked at realistically, on the one hand Lutz seriously upgraded GM’s quality, which ultimately will prove most important, and also was instrumental in getting GM to commit to E-REV. He also did some major renovations on the Cadillac brand. On the other hand he missed new designs like the Scion or the mini-Coopers and instead produced the Saturn Sky.

    On balance I think Lutz was positive for GM. Even if you disagree, GM’s issues go way beyond Bob Lutz. The heart of those problems are that you have a company run by accountants with an eye to Wall Street — so long term strategy is always sacrificed on the alter of short term profitability — and an overly complex supply chain and dealer network which requires an enormous bureaucracy.

    At the end of the day, like European manufacturers like Renault and VW, GM is in a tough position. Its cost structure requires high margin vehicles but it doesn’t produce them.  

    (Quote)


  67. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    #62 BigCityCat –
    The Unabomber called. He wants his straightjacket back.  

    (Quote)


  68. Ksuhwail
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ksuhwail     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    #60 Bruce

    “I have a Saturn Vue-2 months old. I love it. Now what I am going to do without service if there is no Saturn??? Is GM backing up their cars?? PANIC!!!”

    Chill out man! Everything will be just fine. Saturn is funded through 2012 and their products will be supported for a long time! They still service Oldsmobiles….remember that. You can take it to any GM dealer since most of their vehicles use parts from the same bin.  

    (Quote)


  69. Benjamin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Benjamin     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    To all the comments bemoaning government intervention, the death of capitalism, committee decisions of running a company, etc, etc.

    This only happens WHEN YOU ARE TAKING TAXPAYER MONEY. You are still free to run your business just as you want, if you are funding yourself. Once you invite the government to get involved by taking their money, then yes, they have a say in what you do. Its very simple, if you don’t want goverynment involment, run your own business with your own company’s money and don’t ask for help. Free enterprise is alive and well for solvent companies.

    Why is this so hard for people to get.  

    (Quote)


  70. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    nataraj (#34)

    Your comment demonstrates your ignorance of the big picture. I suggest you learn more about the “free market” fallacy of the last 8 years by going here:

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=10

    “The financial crisis is blamed on an “atmosphere of deregulation” even though it came after years of intervention, specifically easy credit (by law) and big-government promotion of homeownership. A growing literature makes the case that intervention, not free markets, was the culprit behind the current economic troubles. For a book-length treatment, see Tom Woods’s new contribution, Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse. Despite such evidence, the market gets the blame.”

    This is a typical liberal, progressive, socialist (or whatever you’re calling yourselves today) “false-flag” operation tactic. Set a fire and blame it on your enemy. In this case the enemy is freedom and responsibility with the goal of MORE Socialist/Statitst central planning.

    The banks and Big Auto failed, and YOU “Progressives” rewarded them for it. Now everyone knows failure = free taxpayer money and they are getting in line with their hands out for our children’s, children’s debt.

    This is fair? “BAIL ME OUT, SCOTTY!”  

    (Quote)


  71. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:16 pm

    GM consulant: Volt may have a halo, but it will not be GM’s savior

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/16/gm-consulant-volt-may-have-a-halo-but-it-will-not-be-gms-savi/

    “Rob Kleinbaum, who worked at GM for nine years before taking on a consulting role for 15, wrote a white paper in January called “Retooling GM’s Culture” (PDF). In it, Kleinbaum writes:

    The mainstay belief is that all will turn out well if only they [GM leaders] have the chance to implement their plans, starting with the much heralded Volt. Then they will consider turning their attention to considering these types of “secondary” issues [labor contracts, cost issues, etc.].

    Kleinbaum also spoke with HybridCars about his white paper and said that the Volt program is “set up to fail.” The car itself might work as advertised, but, “The way they set it up as saving everything. There’s tremendous risk that it won’t meet expectations. [...] Even if the Volt meets all its targets, GM will not survive unless the entire product line is well executed…GM has shown it can execute world-class products; they just cannot execute a broad portfolio of them.” I guess my answer to the GM/Volt question just got a bit more detailed.”  

    (Quote)


  72. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    #69 Benjamin,

    Here’s 3 good reasons why it is so hard for people to get:

    From the New York Times:

    The first, of course, is the one the president-elect himself highlighted. Government’s record as a corporate manager is miserable, which is why the world has been on a three-decade-long privatization kick, turning national railroads, national airlines and national defense industries into private companies.

    The second risk is that if the effort fails, and the American car companies collapse or are auctioned off in pieces to foreign competitors, taxpayers may lose the billions about to be spent.

    And the third risk — one barely discussed so far — is that in trying to save the nation’s carmakers, the United States is violating at least the spirit of what it has preached around the world for two decades. The United States has demanded that nations treat American companies on their soil the same way they treat their home-grown industries, a concept called “national treatment.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/business/economy/09nationalize.html?hp

    ______________________________________________

    “Its very simple, if you don’t want goverynment involment run your own business with your own company’s money and don’t ask for help. Free enterprise is alive and well for solvent companies.”

    Also, let’s say you are Ford, who is (for now) not taking government loans. If 2/3 of your domestic competition is is government subsidized (and run by a government committee), then you’re competing in a market that doesn’t have much to do at all with free enterprise. Let’s say the government continues to give GM and Chrysler more loans. Then, a government contract comes up for a large bunch of vehicles. Even if ford has a better cheaper product, who do you think will get the bid? And it goes on and on. It’s not the governments job to run car companies. It’s a terrible idea.  

    (Quote)


  73. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Lyle

    We still want Maximum Bob Pink Ties.
    They are the sartorial symbol of the Volt.
    Maybe now is the right moment to ask for the original, to be copied.  

    (Quote)


  74. David K (CT)
    Vote -1 Vote +1David K (CT)     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    I just want my Volt!  

    (Quote)


  75. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:42 pm

    carcus1 (#72)

    So, when a private “for profit” corporation asks the gov’t to “redistribute” money from the productive taxpayers to their company as a reward for failure, the ONLY fair answer is…

    “HELL NO, go seek help in the bankruptcy system. That’s what it’s designed for”!

    Too bad common sense has become uncommon these days.  

    (Quote)


  76. Ksuhwail
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ksuhwail     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

    ^^^^#70

    Since we are getting academic here, I hope you realize that free trade/free market is nothing more than an idealized model used in classrooms. There will always be people sticking their hands into the system be it governments or the wealthy.

    On another note….I can’t see how the free market making millions of bad loans to unqualified(bad credit) people is a case for deregulation. The lack of regulation is what caused that mess. However, that doesn’t mean more regulation is necessarily the answer.  

    (Quote)


  77. john1701a
    Vote -1 Vote +1john1701a     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    I like to think that anyone who supported the Volt in their own special way helped to sink GM.
    _______________________________

    Those of us active in the hybrid market for many years were concerned from the beginning, when Volt was first revealed. Those “game changer” cheers were an attention swing in a self-deprecating direction. Instead, it should have been cheering for hybrids in general, with Volt as the “most desired” model. Away from traditional (engine-only) designs as quickly as possible should have been the motto, rather than fighting those that saw this coming.

    Lots of high-efficiency vehicles sold at competitive prices are needed very soon. Volt clearly won’t fulfill that. It is helpful as a long-term solution, certainly not something to revive the financial well-being of GM.

    Now what? Remember that GM production should be around 8,000,000 per year and the need is immediate.

    GM already has Two-Mode. Why the $#%&*! can’t they rapidly adapt it to compete directly with the Camry & Fusion hybrids. For crying out loud, both Toyota & Ford delivered. Why isn’t a FULL hybrid Malibu being planned? Wake up GM!

    Volt alone is not enough, far from it.  

    (Quote)


  78. BigCityCat
    Vote -1 Vote +1BigCityCat     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    Kansas just announced that it is suspending income tax refunds and it won’t be paying anyone their salary’s.

    I call that Govt. reneging on it’s promises. and Jim in PA. Yeh your real intelligent. lol

    Here is you scientific consensus.

    http://www.petitionproject.org/

    more than 30,000 scientist who disagree with the myth of man made global warming. I’ll believe them before someone with an asinine comment like yours.  

    (Quote)


  79. Steven
    Vote -1 Vote +1Steven     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    “more than 30,000 scientist who disagree with the myth of man made global warming. I’ll believe them before someone with an asinine comment like yours.”

    Right, while there are about 2 million who agree that its not a myth.
    You say you believe scientists but only the fraction that support your view. So go with the less than 1% who are dissenting with the majority? Seems more logical to believe the 99% of science that is in agreement in this issue. Maybe you should educate yourself on how science even works.  

    (Quote)


  80. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:05 pm

    Chinese car sales surpass US sales in January. Buick is #1 car in China.

    Can GM go bankrupt in the US and still be a company in China?

    By some strange stroke of fate the two people I know that recently bought new vehicles bought a Staturn VUE. How strange is that.  

    (Quote)


  81. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Speaking of China, that’s the place to be if you want an EREV.

    “Chinese volt” commercial:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFyTnO3QaIE
    (available for purchase in China for over 2 months now)  

    (Quote)


  82. RB
    Vote -1 Vote +1RB     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    #78 said Kansas just announced that it is suspending income tax refunds and it won’t be paying anyone their salary’s.
    ————————————-

    Can you give us a link on that?  

    (Quote)


  83. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    Ksuhwail (#76) said:

    “I can’t see how the free market making millions of bad loans to unqualified(bad credit) people is a case for deregulation. The lack of regulation is what caused that mess.”

    WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

    It was Barney Fwank and the “Progressives” in Congress who forced Fanny & Freddy to buy “sub prime” mortgages so more people could qualify for the American Dream” which created the malfeasance.

    In a nutshell:

    Statists in Gov’t started the fire by overriding the free market and forcing Freddy and Fanny to go into the “sub prime pawn shop business”. Statists then intentionally encouraged greedy bankers and Wall Street to create the crazy mortgage products (2/28, baloons etc.) so they could put more people in houses, in effect throwing gasoline on the fire. Banks around the world joined in the American sub prime market CREATED by the Statists in our Gov’t and THAT’S why they too are failing.

    The gasoline would have NEVER been thrown or ignited if the Socialists/Statists didn’t FIRST light the match while trying to “help” someone buy something they could not afford to pay for by taking advantage of inherent greed.

    IMPORTANT CONCEPT:

    Who’s more to blame for burglary, the drug addict or the pawn broker who pays cash for the stolen merchandise?

    The road to hell is paved in good intentions (with unintended consequences or Blow-Back)  

    (Quote)


  84. Ash
    Vote -1 Vote +1Ash     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    RIP Saturn  

    (Quote)


  85. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:22 pm

  86. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm

    Just to make a comment :

    Saturn Astra sales were up in the last table Statik refrenced, more than 200% if I remember well.

    So perhaps soon a Chevy Astra ?

    JC NPNS  

    (Quote)


  87. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    It was against the law since 1907 or so until 1999 for banks to act as investment houses. The regulations were good and now that we have burned down the house we will see the regulations enacted again.

    There were a lot of people in California and South Florida that refiananced their houses every year to pay off credit cards and new cars. These were not ignorant people. I am sittling here still saving 10% of my income, never in debt and wondering why I get to pay for everyone elses party.

    I think both parties are to blame, but deregulation and tax cuts are probably the stupidest things I can think of eight years ago. I can’t believe anyone would start a war and cut taxes or was it cut taxes and start a war.  

    (Quote)


  88. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Static@46 murmured re Max Bob:
    “/80 million dollars of payroll well spent
    //all because he is a really cool guy, the kind you want to hang out with”

    Seems like that could just have easily read:
    /800 Billion dollars public money spent and more.
    //all because he is a really cool guy, the kind you want to shoot hoops with”

    Guess who? (hint: it ain’t Bob)

    For a real eye-opener about the “general public’s” demand for plugins/hybrids (as opposed to our Loyal Minority here at GM-Volt.com). see:
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/mixed-outlook-f.html#more

    “And miles to go before I sleep” R. Frost

    Be well,
    Tag  

    (Quote)


  89. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    I was just watching the auto show coverage on TV and one commentator said to the other that he wasn’t too sure that saving gas was going to attract buyers. Given the choice between horsepower and saving gas the US car buyer will take horsepower every time. His buddy just said YUP. It sounded just like Maximum Bob.  

    (Quote)


  90. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    GM do whatever you need to do to get my Volt….

    I’ll take my Volt No Generator, No ICE, shaken not stirred….  

    (Quote)


  91. k-dawg
    Vote -1 Vote +1k-dawg     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    @89 Len

    Or if you have the cash you can get both w/a Fisker or Tesla.  

    (Quote)


  92. Dave B
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dave B     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Is it me or did everyone simply forget that we lost well over 4,000 troops in Iraq? I’ll take my EV, regardless of horsepower. I’ll take it sooner, rather than later. I’ll take it on credit if I must. Small price to pay.  

    (Quote)


  93. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Len@89 said:
    “I was just watching the auto show coverage on TV and one commentator said to the other that he wasn’t too sure that saving gas was going to attract buyers. Given the choice between horsepower and saving gas the US car buyer will take horsepower every time. His buddy just said YUP. It sounded just like Maximum Bob.”

    Take a look at the study I cited @88
    Be well,
    Tag  

    (Quote)


  94. Alejandro
    Vote -1 Vote +1Alejandro     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

    #76 Says:
    ….I can’t see how the free market making millions of bad loans to unqualified (bad credit) people is a case for deregulation. The lack of regulation is what caused that mess. However, that doesn’t mean more regulation is necessarily the answer.
    ________________________________________________________________________
    I agree with you. I would just emphasize that it was not only those evil greedy bankers (although surely they played a big role) the ones to blame for this financial mess.
    We, the people, the ones who took those loans are to be blamed too. It is just funny to see how every one look at them as pooooorr victims. Even though there were some victims, you don’t need a Phd. to know that if you take a loan for half your income or with a flexible rate you may get in serious trouble in the future. Sometimes people don’t want to take responsibility for their actions, and we don’t want to realize that greed does not distinguish income levels. If you don’t have the money to buy that house, is better to buy a cheaper one or pay a rent.

    P.S. By the way Ksuhwail, I am just hanging from your previous words because I found them useful to help me with the idea.  

    (Quote)


  95. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Len (#87)

    This one’s for you, bud….

    Roots of the Banking Crisis
    By Michael Beitler Ph.D., CPA

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=12

    “Banking has been heavily regulated, controlled, and manipulated for political purposes for many years. Creeping socialism has existed in the banking industry for decades. Occasionally, the “creeping” aspect has been replaced by giant leaps toward a socialist state. The Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) was more a “leap” than “creep.”

    “With a stack of loan files (loans we had planned to reject) in front of them, the federal examiners told us these “marginal” loans must be made to improve our CRA rating.”

    “To help “improve liquidity in the secondary market” FHLMC (Freddie Mac) and FNMA (Fannie Mae), two government-sponsored organizations, stepped in to guarantee the securities (mortgage-backed bonds) with implied AAA ratings of the federal government. This meant we now had AAA-rated bonds backed by subprime loans flooding the marketplace. ”

    “From the beginning, people like me warned that a disaster was inevitable. We were ignored.”

    Mr. Beitler was the CFO of a profitable bank for more than ten years.

    Statists ignore anything questioning their increasing power over our daily lives.  

    (Quote)


  96. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    Democrats LIE about ECONOMIC Bailout – video of Barney Frank DOING NOTHING ABOUT BANKING CRISIS then pointing fingers at Republicans

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HQWk1Wp3L4

    Blaming the failure of over-relation on the “free market” is like suing your beating victim for your bruised knuckles. Now THAT’S good spin….

    Obama wants “MORE” of the “Same” and calls that “Change”????  

    (Quote)


  97. Tim
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tim     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

    Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&feature=related

    Do we REALLY want these people running our manufacturers?  

    (Quote)


  98. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    @Alejandro 94

    Man I know people here in the ghetto that purposely stopped paying their mortgage claiming financial distress and the fallen home values and can’t refi. Many of them are doing this despite the Acura TL and Escalades on their driveways. Now guess what, these folks got their d@mn mortgage company to drop their rates by 2 points so they can keep their house. WTF?

    I tried the same thing and tried to refi to a lower rate and was denied because I was not in “Distress” but I was still upside down on my mortgage.

    So the lesson goes, prove you made poor decisions and can’t afford what you bought and you get rewarded. Do the right thing and get screwed up the A$s by the financial institutions that just go a phat a$ss bailout.  

    (Quote)


  99. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    #98 CaptJack,

    “I tried the same thing and tried to refi to a lower rate and was denied because I was not in “Distress” but I was still upside down on my mortgage.”
    ___________________________________________________

    Now the man’s got you right where he wants you.
    Sing along with Ernie:

    A one, and a two, and a. . . .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0  

    (Quote)


  100. Len
    Vote -1 Vote +1Len     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    We were well on our way to this mess before Freddy and Fanny jumped on board. I have heard the Republican version and it doesn’t hold water, the Democrat version is not much better. I believe it was Republican Phil Gram, Democrat Shumer from Wall Street and Greenspan cheering that ran through the deregulation of the banks and it was signed by Clinton. A real bipartisan love fest. The regulations were put in place after a meltdown like this one. I think that one goes by the name of the Great Depression.  

    (Quote)


  101. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

    #86 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:

    Gotta be better than an Aveo.

    #88 Tagamet:

    Or how about somebody you’d like to cut down brush with? A $700 billion TARP and a couple of trillion squandered in Iraq ain’t too shabby.

    Excellent link, BTW. I started sending in comments on the Lutz blog 2 years ago asking for a lightened, lowered, aero kitted, BAS Aveo (Astra?) with a better auto trans. CVT? Lotsa luck.

    All I can say is that we had better start figuring out how to move our granchildren to higher ground, and making sure they have enough to eat. Clearly, the crisis is going to have to come before people retract their heads into the sunshine and try to do someting about it, probably too late.

    In his excellent CD “The Seeger Sessions”, Bruce Springsteen reprises the old public domain folk song, “Oh Mary Don’t You Weep Don’t You Mourn”. Therein God told Noah:

    “This time it’s the water, it’s the fire next time.”  

    (Quote)


  102. Jackson
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jackson     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

    It’s a little interesting to note that no one here really cares to say anything about Obama’s “Auto Task Force;” as though such a thing were little more than a speed bump on the downhill road to ruin, a footnote in the overall tale of catastrophe.

    Probably because we all know it is.

    Furthermore, there’s really no purpose served by arguing over who gets the lions share of the blame for what this country is going through. There’s at least as much of that as there is debt: certainly enough to go around.

    I’m struggling to think of anything positive to say, when Tagamet, of all people, links to that study about how eager “people” really are to embrace something like Volt. I urge all of you to read it:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/mixed-outlook-f.html#more

    So much has been said about the economy and the state of the car business in this thread, but consider this: If the government does manage to drag GM out of the muck and get EREVs out of them, and if they promote the heck out of them by every means; there would be such a backlash that one could only compare it to the 55 mph speed limit and Prohibition in US history. The Volt would be as doomed as it would be, should all US automakers collapse. Americans hate nothing quite so much as having something rammed down their throats.

    I think we’re all well-intentioned here, but need to remember that no good deed goes unpunished.

    I think we can all imagine solutions for our problems, but consistently underestimate modern America’s capacity for stupidity and purposeful ignorance.

    I fear that the only thing the Volt has really done, is to convince everyone who hears of it to wait, rather than buy a car now. NPNS – ?

    I’m afraid we’re all [censored], and have been fools to think that anything else would happen. Myself included.

    I’m gonna call it: Volt = False Dawn.

    I told you statik was too optimistic.  

    (Quote)


  103. omnimoeish
    Vote -1 Vote +1omnimoeish     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Which do you think is worse? No American auto makers or a nationalized auto maker (soon to include Ford, let’s not kid ourselves)? Either way we are pretty screwed but I can’t imagine much worse than GM, Chrysler and Ford all getting bought out by Nissan, Hyundai, Fiat, and potentially even Toyota and Honda (although I doubt they want much unless it’s literally pennies on the dollar for stuff they were already going to do themselves, like for Voltec or something).

    I am registered Republican, and I still believe a Republican view of the economy is far better (ie, very limited safety net, letting banks and other big businesses fail that are replaceable within 5 or 10 years) but our automakers will take probably at least 2 or 3 decades to ever come back, and with Toyota and Honda already looking unbeatable, realistically, there would never be any way for a small auto maker to catch up no matter the capital invested and economic status of the country. I also believe Bush and Greenspan couldn’t have botched things up more in 8 years if they were trying.  

    (Quote)


  104. Jason J
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jason J     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    The blame is not with the deregulators, or the banks or wall street, democrats or republicans.

    The blame is on each individual person that went out willingly and bought a house they couldn’t afford. You aren’t “sold” a mortgage. You have to look for a house, find one, write an offer, then get a mortgage. Many of these people got 100% financed loans, which means they never really bought anything, they are essentially in bank owned rentals. So now they can’t pay and want assistance to stay? People need to take respsonsiblity for their own actions. I don’t want to bailout anyone that broke the terms of a contract they agreed to. And not reading the contract is no excuse. Moral of the story: don’t buy things you can’t afford.  

    (Quote)


  105. CaptJackSparrow
    Vote -1 Vote +1CaptJackSparrow     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    @Jason J 104

    I agree. For those that followed these common sense laws there is nothing for us. Only for those we described in financial “Distress” because their rates cahnged.

    Like I said earlier, I tried to just refi and was declined eventhough I had descent credit and had $$$ for the close. Go figure. They just tried to say the property was in “negative equity”.  

    (Quote)


  106. Steve K
    Vote -1 Vote +1Steve K     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    #104

    How about a couple of other reasons? These have been going on for 30 years.

    1) Globalization (free-trade) and export-oriented industrialization in Asia leads to hollowing out of US Economy and huge trade deficits.
    2) Lowering of top income tax rate (trickle-down economics) leads to fiscal deficits and weakening of American middle class.
    3) Middle class maintains standard of living by, initially two-income families, later by borrowing. Made possible by easy credit supplied by Asian countries, eager to maintain exports.
    4) The greedy and unethical financial sector and lax regulation (laissez-faire capitalism) leveraged the capital available into a real-estate speculative bubble (like all the others before it, but this time really big).
    5) Bubble pops as they always do.

    You are right about people not buying something they can’t afford (I have been extremely conservative my whole life). But, to expect people to turn down money offered to them, will leave you consistently disappointed.  

    (Quote)


  107. Unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1Unni     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    Anyway , I am sure if GM fails also Volt will be out from some one. so back to tech q:

    Do volt has in-wheel motors. This config allows to avoid transmission, driveshafts, differential gears or other complex mechanical components.

    and they can create RWDs,FWDs or create a 4×4 putting 2 light duty motors on the other wheels ( optimize the power use by switching on them when and only needed ). I read somewhere that EV1 had 2 motors.  

    (Quote)


  108. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    #86 Jean-Charles Jacquemin said:

    Just to make a comment :

    Saturn Astra sales were up in the last table Statik refrenced, more than 200% if I remember well.

    So perhaps soon a Chevy Astra ?

    JC NPNS
    ===========================
    I hate to do this do you JC, as I know the Astra is near and dear to your heart/location, but disclosure is in my nature…so here I go.

    I think you are referencing the chart of GM’s January ‘Carpocalypse’ I put up on February 3rd. Where basically everything sucked, except for the Vibe (which as we know…is not exactly a GM creation).

    On that chart it also listed the Astra of having sales of a whopping 824 in ‘09 vs 215 in ‘08…or a 283.3% increase.

    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=51817

    Here is the kicker, the Astra was introduced to the American market in January ‘08, and as such had a very limited availablility/selling days in relation to ‘09…so it gets a asterisk.

    To get a better idea of comparables, the Astra sold 1,500 units in July and 1,994 units in August…so it is off pretty decently as well.

    Link to August’s sales…just before the Carpocalypse:
    http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=48302
    ————————
    #88 Tag: thanks for linkage  

    (Quote)


  109. CDAVIS
    Vote -1 Vote +1CDAVIS     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    ______________________________________________________
    A “Government Task Force” is going to work with GM to help fix GM’s operational finances.

    This makes perfect sense to me considering the expertise the Government has clearly demonstrated in managing its own operational finances. Basically GM is going to in part outsource its management/financing obligations to a qualified service provider. I get it.

    But why are GM’s competitors smiling about this latest development? I would think the prospect of a Government Task Force (comprised of members from the Departments of Treasury, Labor, Transportation, Commerce, and Energy, the National Economic Council, the White House Office of Energy and Environment, the Council of Economic Advisers and the Environmental Protection Agency) helping GM survive would have GM’s competitors shaking in their boots.
    ______________________________________________________
    Electric Cars + Nuclear Power = American Energy Independence!
    ______________________________________________________  

    (Quote)


  110. Avatar
    Vote -1 Vote +1Avatar     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    Toyota’s mantra- “It is never good enough”.

    America’s mantra- “Just get it done and go home”.

    If this attitude doesn’t change, we will be a third world country in 20 years. China is not going away. They now have an auto industry and the cars will start coming in 2011. Japan is even worried about the Chinese automakers. Market share is everything and neither Ford, Chrysler, or GM can afford to lose another 10%.

    We have had it too easy for too long.  

    (Quote)


  111. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    Jackson@102 said in small part:
    “,,,I’m struggling to think of anything positive to say, when Tagamet, of all people, links to that study about how eager “people” really are to embrace something like Volt. I urge all of you to read it:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/mixed-outlook-f.html#more…”

    I’ll take that as a compliment (lol).
    Be well,
    Tag
    “Unfair, Unbalanced, Unmedicated”  

    (Quote)


  112. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    #104 Jason J & #106 Steve K:

    Did you happen to see the “60 Minutes” segment on World Savings last night? Financial institutions which made these totally irresponsible loan products available, and aggressively marketed them to unsophisticated consumers, are at least as guilty as those consumers. Their greed for points and fees overwhelmed the traditional lending standards which had protected the viability of the industry in the past.

    #110 Avatar:

    20 years? I think that you are an optimist, my friend. Sometimes I think that we are already, but we just don’t know it yet.  

    (Quote)


  113. Paul-R
    Vote -1 Vote +1Paul-R     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    I’m curious what public attitude will be this time regarding additional loans to Detroit. With mighty Toyota expected to announce a $5 billion LOSS soon, clearly “Detroit sucks”, can no longer be used as an excuse to let them die:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSSP15334720090206?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    From that article:

    “Toyota Motor Corp’s operating loss for the year to end-March would be 450 billion yen ($5 billion), three times the loss it had forecast just six weeks ago. Its sales fell 34 percent last month in the United States, its biggest market.”

    “This is absolutely awful. The earnings situation has obviously deteriorated since last October when the company’s stock price plunged,” said Yoshinori Nagano, chief strategist at Daiwa Asset Management in Tokyo.”  

    (Quote)


  114. Jason J
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jason J     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pm

    112 noel park

    Yes, I did catch that 60 minutes. I agree the loans were totally crazy and irresponsible, but I totally reject the theory that is what caused it. If you are selling a product (like a bad mortgage) and no one buys it, there is no bubble. I’m sure theres a drug dealer selling crack somewhere, that doesn’t mean I am going to buy it because I know its stupid.

    People made bad choices, they need to own up to them. And when they lose their houses that makes an affordable house available for a possibly more responsible family to move in.  

    (Quote)


  115. Unni
    Vote -1 Vote +1Unni     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:05 pm

  116. Dan Petit
    Vote -1 Vote +1Dan Petit     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    I wish GM would have gotten rid of Saturn years ago. The reason I say that is because of the horrendous wholesale/retail costs of their replacement parts. Just make a small alteration here or there (often as it happened, to be FAR, FAR more service-unfriendly also), add a little “design artwork” so that you can not use any other GM production part instead, has been cost-ridiculous to my shop customers. But wait! There’s more! The very low production numbers and the handy use of patent enforcement prevented quality aftermarket suppliers from alleviating the customers’ financial pains and turmoil via competition. So, yes, I would be very glad and relieved if Saturn was no longer with us (especially making their alterations of specific limited-production design E-REVs). The opposite is true with Chevrolet. Great economies of scale. Great economics for service and repairs!!!
    Dan Petit Austin TX  

    (Quote)


  117. Jim in PA
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jim in PA     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    People (Tim, I’m looking at you!) are dead wrong when they say that the financial collapse was caused by liberal policies that “forced” institutions to give mortgages to irresponsible poor people. Consider the following:
    1.) Average value of foreclosed home in 2008 was nearly $200,000
    2.) Sub-prime loans constitute a small minority of all foreclosures.

    Once that sinks in, google “credit default swap.” It will be a real eye opener. That is the ridiculously shady financial tool that allowed a bank to essentially create an insurance policy on a mortgage and then sell/trade it. Then they would create another policy ON THE SAME MORTGAGE, and sell/trade that one as well. Pretty soon, the bank had executed several of these swaps for a value that actually exceeded the value of the collateral (the mortgage that supposedly backed it). So when that mortgage defaulted, the banks were on the hook for a value that exceeded the total cost of the mortgage. In other words, it was a pyramid scheme; fully invented by the geniuses of Wall Street.

    I know that complicated facts don’t have that same pizazz as “blame the poor”, but that’s the reality of it. You’ll never learn that (or much else) listening to AM talk radio.  

    (Quote)


  118. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    #111 Tagamet,

    ““Unfair, Unbalanced, Unmedicated”
    ______________________________________________________

    Now that’s a great “Tag” line.

    Gary Busey called, and he wants to borrow it for his new show.  

    (Quote)


  119. Paul-R
    Vote -1 Vote +1Paul-R     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pm

    How about this for a possible “bailout”?

    For 2009, offer a $5K tax credit for any purchased American made vehicle rated at more than 20MPG highway. Increase that to $10K for vehicles rated at more than 30MPG highway. Since Hondas and Toyota are not American made (only assembled in America), they would not qualify.

    Seems like that would motivate people to spend (real “stimulus”) and generate lots of income for Detroit and their supply chain, while costing tax-payers a small fraction of President Obama’s so-called stimulus bill. GM currently offers 17 vehicles that would qualify for the $10K, and most of their product line would qualify for the $5K.  

    (Quote)


  120. Red HHR
    Vote -1 Vote +1Red HHR     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    Ah,
    There is a bit of news today…

    Yup,
    “GSB” by commitiee, that will work…

    Really think it will be done by the end of the year?
    Statik, I would be more than happy to give your point back.

    Red HHR (Lyle, where is that Tesla test drive?)  

    (Quote)


  121. statik
    Vote -1 Vote +1statik     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    #119 Paul-R said:

    How about this for a possible “bailout”?

    For 2009, offer a $5K tax credit for any purchased American made vehicle rated at more than 20MPG highway. Increase that to $10K for vehicles rated at more than 30MPG highway. Since Hondas and Toyota are not American made (only assembled in America), they would not qualify.

    Seems like that would motivate people to spend (real “stimulus”) and generate lots of income for Detroit and their supply chain, while costing tax-payers a small fraction of President Obama’s so-called stimulus bill. GM currently offers 17 vehicles that would qualify for the $10K, and most of their product line would qualify for the $5K.

    =========================

    Sounds a lot like the Depression and how WWII got started–rampant nationalism coupled with protectionist incentives and total breakdown/de-stabilization of the international community.

    The plan sounds good on paper, until you realize there are 6 billion other people in the world going through the exact same pain as you…and they’ll won’t just sit back and let you do something that flagrant, they will sanction you back even harder, forcing you to react in kind…and it will escalate until the whole thing breaks down. You can skirt the issue somewhat by giving incentives/easing restrictions for people/companies to do business/manufacture inside your borders…but overt protectionism is a big no-no now, the world is too big now. There are a lot of countries that can do what only America could do 20-30 years ago.

    You have to remember that for companies like GM, they sell more vehicles outside of the US than inside, if they get a ’special pass’ at home, it won’t be longer before the inverse is true elsewhere.

    Obama already learned this lesson by attempting to put in a ‘buy American provison clause’ in the stimulus, so we are unlikely to see language like this in future bailouts/stimulus. America had an immediate reaction from the EU, and a pending trade war.

    For example, the Obama administration quickly changed the wording in the new stimulus from, “restricted spending to American-made iron and steel” to “government spends funds in ways that do not violate U.S. trade agreements”

    /If you aren’t fair with the world, they aren’t going to be fair to you. It is a symbiotic thing.  

    (Quote)


  122. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    Jackson & Tag – on the greencarcongress report about consumer buying preferences

    Before slicing your wrists, keep in mind that this is hardly unusual with new and very different products. Asking people about products that are unusual and new gives you no useful information because they can’t understand the product. If you had asked people in 2001 if they wanted an iPod they would have told you “no, I can’t see the usefulness.” Heck, I got one for my nephew, thinking this would make me a cool uncle, and he told he didn’t want it. Well, guess what? That iPod thing worked out just fine.

    Assuming the right price signals it will be the same with EVs. When I talk to people now about electric cars they think I’m delusional. They can’t comprehend the concept. But once they see them so they can comprehend them they’ll want one. And there will be plenty of early adopters. I was at a party a few weeks ago and found out that three of my neighbors had put down deposits for the Aptera. That’s four purchases within a few hundred yards. (As a reference point, that would be four times the number of Priuses we collectively own, and you can’t stop at a major intersection and not see at least one of those).

    Of course this assumes the price signals are correct. If we let gas stay at $1.50/gallon then we’ll stay on our present course and end up repeating the same mistakes we made after the last oil crisis.  

    (Quote)


  123. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

    #121 statik

    You so disappoint me when you’re the voice of reason. Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!  

    (Quote)


  124. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    carcus1 said:
    “#111 Tagamet,
    ““Unfair, Unbalanced, Unmedicated”
    ______________________________________________________
    Now that’s a great “Tag” line.
    Gary Busey called, and he wants to borrow it for his new show.
    ************************************************************************************************************

    Hmmmm, isn’t he an uberl-iberal,,,,, er, no wait, that DOES fit him.

    DonC re wrist slitting.

    NOW you tell me???? (dripping sound in background).
    Seriously, although I share your optimism re the eventual “gotta have one a those”, we definitely don’t attend the same party circle (given that I don’t ATTEND parties these days – tough to find a really good kegger), from you Aptera local stats, I’m also guessing that we don’t share too many demographics.

    Staik re protectionism – you know your history well. I thought you lived in Canada. (heehe) Circling the trade wagons is the last thing we should do. It got us in a REAL pickle before.
    Be well,
    Tag

    /someone call 911 for me?  

    (Quote)


  125. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 8:44 pm

    #78 BigCityCat
    If you adhere to the scientific method, you should look at the petiton project with a crtitical eye, then decide if it is reliable.

    #88 Tag
    I didn’t know W shot hoops. He liked mountain biking. But seriously, are you saying we shouldn’t have a government stimulus?

    #98 CaptJackSparrow
    I thought I made a good decision when I bought my house. Now I wish I bought more house than I could afford.  

    (Quote)


  126. Texas Tea
    Vote -1 Vote +1Texas Tea     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    Black Gold is trading at $36.85 at 8:21pm EST !

    At these prices GM might want to rethink the need for a Volt at this time.  

    (Quote)


  127. breakaway
    Vote -1 Vote +1breakaway     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    BigCityCat
    The scientists that you cherish are all paid by organizations who are funded by the oil companies. You are the one who should wake up or you will die a grumpy old man.  

    (Quote)


  128. D..
    Vote -1 Vote +1D..     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    #121and #123
    Voice of reason? I think not. It is not reasonable to export all US jobs to sweaty children in 3rd world countries. Neither should there be unlimited imports from said countries. Static and Don C. you otta be ashamed, ashamed of yourselves for making such silly remarks. Remarks of ideologues…thanks  

    (Quote)


  129. DonC
    Vote -1 Vote +1DonC     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    #124 Tagamet says “from you Aptera local stats, I’m also guessing that we don’t share too many demographics.”

    Maybe. Its urban with lot’s of tech types — and I would be the only one originally from the PA coal regions, which is probably not unusual where you are.

    What’s interesting to me is the changing gestalt. Starting maybe five or six years ago there has been a shift from the “look at me I’m rich” cars like Mercedes and BMW and Porsche to the “look at me I’m so environmental” car — the Prius. (I think the founder of Tesla mentioned something like this as suggesting to him that an electric car could actually be built). Something like the Volt will just build on that trend and take it to a new level.  

    (Quote)


  130. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:43 pm

    ThombDbhomb@125 said in part:

    #88 Tag
    I didn’t know W shot hoops. He liked mountain biking. But seriously, are you saying we shouldn’t have a government stimulus?

    ****************************************************************************************
    Yes, I’m saying that ANYTHING this size, that was cobbled together this quickly, can’t be the best we could have done.
    Be well.
    Tag
    PS Dubyuh shoots anything that moves.  

    (Quote)


  131. koz
    Vote -1 Vote +1koz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 9:51 pm

    Tagamet #130

    “PS Dubyuh shoots anything that moves”

    I thought that was Cheney. HAH!  

    (Quote)


  132. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:03 pm

    #130 Tagamet
    So, what size should the stimulus be and how long do you think we can wait for a better one?  

    (Quote)


  133. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    Voice of reason on the Stimulus

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad1bGv8pQAI  

    (Quote)


  134. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    DonC
    Anywhere near Schuylkill county? The closest I’ve lived that was urban was the ‘Burbs of Omaha. Other than that “urban” meant that “they have one of those stoplight thingys”
    I think you’re right about the “stealth wealth” bit though. Around here a car with those electrical windows I’ve read about is top-o-the-line.
    Be well,
    Tag
    PS It was well worth the 9 hour roundtrip drive for Voltnation though.  

    (Quote)


  135. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    #133 carcus1

    That was actually the voice of Ron Paul. As far as I know, his macroeconomic reasoning isn’t accepted as the consensus opinion among trained economists.  

    (Quote)


  136. Tagamet
    Vote -1 Vote +1Tagamet     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    ThombDbhomb@132 said:

    #130 Tagamet
    So, what size should the stimulus be and how long do you think we can wait for a better one

    As someone on high said, “Uh, that’s above my pay grade”. JFK made a sage remark that fits though.
    “Too often we…enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.” This bill is a great example.
    Be well,
    Tag
    PS Even taking the three days that it’s taking to SIGN the bill would have been nice.  

    (Quote)


  137. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:39 pm

    # 135 ThombDbhomb,

    The consensus trained economists are what got us into this economic meltdown. They never saw it coming. Guys like Ron Paul and Peter Schiff (Austrian school of economics, not Keynesian) have been warning for years, but the MSM won’t listen. At least not until recently. Both Paul and Schiff have been getting significant air time since the meltdown.

    Here’s a great interview where Paul talks about the bailout, the auto industry, and Credit Default Swaps.

    Ron Paul Talks About the Economy on Morning Joe 1-27-09
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDReHg
    (I usually agree with most everything he says, but he downplays lack of oversight on the CDS thing more than I would like).

    Bottom line, the treasury can’t just continue to print trillions of money out of nowhere and not expect massive consequences for the u.s dollar and u.s. taxpayers down the road. Wicked high inflation and possibly even a depression are real concerns at this point.  

    (Quote)


  138. koz
    Vote -1 Vote +1koz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    Jim in PA #117

    Why go confusing the issue with facts. It’s so much easier to blame the government and social programs. Don’t you know about NINJA? Surely the 40,000 or so overstock condo units in my metropolitan area were only built because the government was jamming those 35+ story luxury towers down the poor defenseless developers’ and lenders’ throats. Didn’t you know the multi-billion dollar City Place in Vegas was for the poor and that humongous project was just a drop in the hood bucket.

    How anyone with functioning eyes believes this was anything but a severely overheated speculative market driven pure unadulterated greed is beyond me. It was motivated no differently than any other speculative bubble in the past. Bigger problem is that it masked the hemorrhaging of our economy outside of the construction market. Now that construction has come back to reality, we have 10 years of contraction hitting and still unwinding. Blaming NINJA, government, social programs, the poor, or anything else ain’t gonna fix it.

    I agree with others here that government protectionism won’t fix it either, but I do think individually administered local pride will help. No local business or good should get a free ride but they should enjoy a homefield advantage.  

    (Quote)


  139. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    #136 Tagamet
    Crap! I thought I could get you to say something stupid! I guess I won’t see you bloviating on cable news or AM radio.

    BTW, good quote.  

    (Quote)


  140. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    #137 carcus1

    I suspect the truth is more complicated. If Ron Paul and Morning Joe give you comfort, I won’t argue with that.  

    (Quote)


  141. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    #140 Thomb,

    Your blessing has given me great solace. Simple minds such as mine need that, you know.

    How about this. Is this complicated enough for you?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw  

    (Quote)


  142. koz
    Vote -1 Vote +1koz     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:44 pm

    Len #87

    It was cut taxes then start 2 wars, but one war was inevitable so your accounting is good.  

    (Quote)


  143. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 16th, 2009 at 11:48 pm

    #141 carcus1
    Yes, it was too complicated for me because, after watching it, I searched the internet using the search terms “Peter Schiff wrong.” I found a lot. Things quickly got complicated. I’m not quick to buy into someone else’s guru. If you want to follow and promote Peter Schiff and Ron Paul without question, it’s a free country (I think I can still say that). All I’m saying is; if you are trying to sell me Morning Joe, Ron Paul, or Peter Schiff; I’m not ready to buy. I just don’t think everybody is correct about everything all the time.  

    (Quote)


  144. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 12:02 am

    #143 ThombDbhomb (me)

    Edit of my last sentence: I just don’t think somebody can be correct about everything all the time.  

    (Quote)


  145. carcus1
    Vote -1 Vote +1carcus1     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 12:24 am

    #143 Thomb,

    Guru, without question, always right.? Those are a lot of words you’re putting in my mouth. I can do without that and the patronizing.

    You are obviously in favor of a “stimulus” and aren’t interested in a view to the contrary. That’s clear enough.  

    (Quote)


  146. Jean-Charles Jacquemin
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jean-Charles Jacquemin     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 2:38 am

    Thanks Statik #108, it was late and I did not have time to search for the data.

    Yes the Astra is a good compact car but when I was student, a (very) long time ago in California, I confess I bought an used Oldsmobile 98, not reliable at all and a true gas guzzler, … nobody is perfect …

    JC NPNS  

    (Quote)


  147. ThombDbhomb
    Vote -1 Vote +1ThombDbhomb     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 9:53 am

    #145 carcus1

    Forgive me if I put words in your mouth.

    What are you trying to say; if we listened to Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, and Morning Joe then everything would be great? If I don’t agree with you, you seem to be getting mad at me. Are you the voice of reason also?  

    (Quote)


  148. Alejandro
    Vote -1 Vote +1Alejandro     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 11:19 am

    #128 D.. Says:
    Voice of reason? I think not. It is not reasonable to export all US jobs to sweaty children in 3rd world countries. Neither should there be unlimited imports from said countries. Static and Don C. you otta be ashamed, ashamed of yourselves for making such silly remarks. Remarks of ideologues…thanks
    ______________________________________________________________________________
    Dear D:
    I am sorry D but as an economist I must tell you, trade especially Free trade is ALWAYS better for EVERYONE, the importers and the exporters. Economics is a science much more precise than most people believe or want to recognize. A lot of the economic non-sense happens because politicians do not listen to what real economists have to tell them, those real economists who go by the book, and are free of socialist ideologies that contradict what they have studied. Other times politicians do listen to sound economic advice, but they rather listen to the crowds because another thing that happens with economics is that, unlike medicine, where nobody would argue with the doctor’s diagnostic and treatment, with economic problems people always think they know better. The sad thing is that sound economic measures are generally hard to sell to the public because in the short-run require painful decisions, and politicians have to be reelected in only four more years. Now, please I have nothing against politics, I am studying myself a masters in government; however, that is simple the truth of the matter.
    Regarding your comments of ,“no exporting to export all US jobs to sweaty children in 3rd world countries”, let me tell you that I am from Bolivia, which is the poorest country of all Latin America with the only exception of Haiti, even though we are close. When people accuse that children fill factories in the third world is because they have not been there. Of course, there might be cases like that, but the overwhelming majority of them employ only adults. Moreover, for those children who do work mostly shining shoes, in construction jobs, etc. It is easy to condemn the fact that they are working but when the alternative is that, there will not be enough food at home for them and their siblings; the alternative is less talking and censuring. We either give them all the food and money they need by direct aid or by allowing their parents to work in a factory that produces goods and services that will be FREELY export to other countries, even if this affects some people in the richest, and one of the greatest countries on earth.
    Sincerely,
    Alejandro

    P.S. I am not flattering when I say the U.S. is one of the greatest countries in the world, and I say one of and not The greatest because I love my country.  

    (Quote)


  149. noel park
    Vote -1 Vote +1noel park     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 11:22 am

    #138 koz:

    Amen.  

    (Quote)


  150. Paul-R
    Vote -1 Vote +1Paul-R     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    Static wrote…

    “The plan sounds good on paper, until you realize there are 6 billion other people in the world going through the exact same pain as you…and they’ll won’t just sit back and let you do something that flagrant, they will sanction you back even harder, forcing you to react in kind…and it will escalate until the whole thing breaks down.
    …
    You have to remember that for companies like GM, they sell more vehicles outside of the US than inside, if they get a ’special pass’ at home, it won’t be longer before the inverse is true elsewhere.”
    —
    Correct me if I’m wrong Statik, but aren’t we already being sanctioned by Japan?

    Aren’t we already disallowed from selling/assembling vehicles in Japan, while they are given huge incentives to sell/assemble vehicles in the USA?

    It’s my understanding that the answer to both questions is “YES” and Detroit sells zero vehicles in Japan for that very reason.

    I wouldn’t view tax incentives to be “protectionism” unless the USA restricted foreign governments from offering similar incentives toward their vehicles. They should certainly be free to offer similar incentives if they want to.  

    (Quote)


  151. Jeff M
    Vote -1 Vote +1Jeff M     Says:
    February 17th, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    Breaking News Alert
    The New York Times
    Tuesday, February 17, 2009 — 6:11 PM ET
    —–
    G.M. Increases Federal Loan Request by $12 Billion

    General Motors told the federal government Tuesday that it
    needs another $4.6 billion in loans within weeks and an
    additional $12 billion in financial support in order to stave
    off bankruptcy.  

    (Quote)


  152. Domain Flipping
    Vote -1 Vote +1Domain Flipping     Says:
    April 25th, 2009 at 2:55 am

    I strongly recommend that you turn the No Follow off in your comment section.

    I’ll watch Google Webmaster Tools, and if the links don’t show up after a couple of weeks — I won’t go back to that blog again.

    Another suggestion: you should have a Top Commentator widget installed.

    Do Follow and Top Commentator will ensure that you have a successful blog with lots of readers!  

    (Quote)


  153. Drucheap car insurance
    Vote -1 Vote +1Drucheap car insurance     Says:
    June 23rd, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    A fantastic read….very literate and informative. Many thanks….what theme is this you are using and also, where is your RSS button ?  

    (Quote)


  154. Florida Title Company
    Vote -1 Vote +1Florida Title Company     Says:
    June 24th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

    Your post is very well crafted and I have learned so much about your interests and real estate in Florida. I  

    (Quote)


  155. predatory lending
    Vote -1 Vote +1predatory lending     Says:
    June 27th, 2009 at 5:50 am

    It was interesting to browse trough :-) keep up the good work and thanks for sharing this the valuable information.  

    (Quote)

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