It has become extremely clear that GM is pressing ahead aggressively with its plans for electrification of the automobile, and that the first generation Chevy Volt is just the tip of the spear.
The Volt program is well along towards production and GM has announced they will now be in the battery pack design, assembly, and manufacturing business, opening the country’s largest and first battery assembly plant.
They have matured and advanced what used to be known as E-Flex propulsion system for electric drive with range extender, and are now calling it the Voltec propulsion system. Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz , who has now just been named co-chairman of the Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA) explained why the change was made:
“Every one is calling everything ‘flex’…flex fuel, eco-flex, Ford Flex, etc. So basically we said everyone knows the Volt is electric and the Volt name has resonance, so Voltec propulsion system or Volt with ‘EC’ for electric car. Everyone knows immediately what it is and we also have a history of Vortec engines.”
GM also unveiled a concept of how a Cadillac sedan could look using the Voltec propulsion system and blew us a way with the striking and beautiful Converj concept, which incidentally was named the Best Concept Vehicle in the ‘Eyes On Design Awards’ at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Posawatz also tantalizes us noting that the Converj is just the first of a series of extended-range electric vehicle or Voltec concepts GM will be unveiling throughout 2009 at various auto shows. He noted the Geneva Auto Show it likely the next place we’ll see one, which appears to be the European Volt sister, the Opel Ampera.
Here’s what Mr. Posawatz said:
“You’ll see in future shows there will be future variants showing up through this year. Hopefully by the end of the year we’ll be able to say around this time next year which on will be the production car. Right now its not a formal process. Individually people will say I either do or don’t like the Volt, they say its not my style or its not my type or whatever. Over the course of this year were going to unveil a bunch of different possibilities of which some will make it into the product line, and some wont. Part of it is going to be this process of ‘what do you think?’”
When I asked how many different Voltec concepts GM would be unveiling he said the following:
“I cant comment in specifics, in Geneva, in LA, in a few other shows this year you will see a couple of different concepts. So there’s some more stuff coming. But the Volt isn’t a one-trick pony nor can it be, but I have to say were being very very thorough in assessing what is the next best play. In order to get volume you have to have more choices. As much as the Volt is a wonderful car there are people that have different functional requirements. Bob Lutz believes that the Converj ought to be on that list. We’re going to work through the discussion of which of the concepts are going to be the right ones to look at as a next installment in the Volt family.”
Looks like 2009 will be an exciting year for electric car enthusiasts.
This entry was posted on Monday, February 9th, 2009 at 7:48 am and is filed under Design, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Feb 9th, 2009 (7:49 am)Bring them on. The more the better.
Congratulations Tony Posawatz on your promotion.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (7:57 am)I hope GM can optimize the design and bring down costs as they continue to design. The extended range EV is a great idea. I would love to see an even more efficient design with a smaller/lighter ICE as well as larger designs for families.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (7:57 am)From the article:
“But the Volt isn’t a one-trick pony nor can it be, but I have to say were being very very thorough in assessing what is the next best play.”
———-
I don’t know how possible this is in the near future, but I hope the battery range can be extended. I think this could be a good play.
Also, while we are assessing, here are my suggestions.
All Wheel Drive
4X4 light pickup truck.
Convertible.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:04 am)Volt internal combustion engine from Austria.
Volt Lithium-Ion battery pack from Korea.
Volt body & chasis built in Brazil.
I see now what they mean by ‘gloabal platform’.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:04 am)hats off GM. Ford Chrysler and GM should make electric cars defeat the japanese bastards.all the big three should compete and no matter who wins or loses but we americans should lose our foreign oil dependence.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:09 am)The more the better.
Do NOT change the converj concept shape. This end of the market will happily put up with some loss of AER range in exchange for cutting edge style.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:14 am)Gm may well be the first that will show and produce the entire range of vehicle with some sort of electric drive train. Imagine not only cars but SUV, pickup trucks and even commercial trucks. All having some sort of electric propulsion system. Hmmm nice!
NPNS!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:15 am)#5 sudhaman says “..defeat the japanese…”
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Please let go of this kind of bashing. WW2 is over. The Japanese companies have won their place with good products at good prices. They create a high bar, and we all hope the Volt is even better.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:21 am)I see the Volt as GM’s halo car, that will have an EPA sticker of 100+ mpg, yet still offer 0-60 times of less than 9 sec (vs. about 12 for the Insight).
But not everyone will want this type of vehicle, so by broadening the product range, many more people will take an interest in Voltec cars. This will help to increase volume, and thus lower the cost of this new technology.
Based on its wheelbase dimension (108″), I believe that the Converj is based on GM’s Epsilon II platform (Opel Insignia, new Buick LaCrosse). The Volt’s 105.7″ wheelbase is from the Delta II platform.
Therefore, I would expect to see a more luxurious sedan (Buick LaCrosse?), a small SUV (Saturn Vue size), and perhaps a pickup truck.
Since these are concepts, and some will reach production and some will not, I expect GM to try to make concepts for a broad range of applications, and then gauge the public’s reaction and choose which ones make the most sense.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:22 am)Rashiid @ 3,
ditto: why doesn’t GM offer every type of vehicle? Cross-over, 4×4, pick-up truck, etc.
Whey they are offering the Opel prior to other designs is beyond me. Options are key in this world…
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:22 am)Great to hear GM is looking at making other iterations of the Voltec system. I would like to see an Equinox sort of Voltec vehicle offered with AWD or 4WD. It could be done like this:
Chevrolet Volt
Chevrolet Equinox (Voltec)
Cadillac Converj
Cadillac Provoq (Voltec)
There they would have 4 different models right off the bat with the same drivetrain, but different personalities and serving different customer bases.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:27 am)Concept talk is fun to listen to. Reading applications for more TARP isn’t. Is GM thinking of actually taking deposits on E-REV’s in place of begging for tax payer funds?
=D~
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:30 am)From the article: “In order to get volume you have to have more choices. As much as the Volt is a wonderful car there are people that have different functional requirements.”
————————————————————————————–
This is excellent news. The implication is that GM will make functionally different cars with Voltec drive, not just changes in styling to a 4-seat sedan.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:38 am)Voltec vs Vortec. Sounds like a setup for a bad Japanese accent joke. Maybe this is intended to confuse the industrial espionage efforts of Toyota? I can see it now… Mispronounced espionage report leads to hijinks and mayhem. Mr. Roper confuses Janet’s boyfriend for Jack’s lover. Hilarity ensues.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:40 am)I would love GM to follow what Ford did with generation 1 of the Focus. Offer the same car, but in three models; hatchback, sedan, and station wagon. It seems like it would be so easy and would require minimal investment.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:52 am)#11 Dave K. =D~ Says:
Concept talk is fun to listen to. Reading applications for more TARP isn’t. Is GM thinking of actually taking deposits on E-REV’s in place of begging for tax payer funds?
==================================
Get your fill in now, because:
1.) GM has a earnings report past due
2.) they have to submit their ‘viability plan’ in a week (Feb 17th)
3.) today – they meet with bondholders to fake some negotiations
4.) tommorrow – they meet with the union to fake some negotiations
5.) GM’s trying to get Delphi back into the fold to put on more pressure
/it is going to be all bailout, all the time soon
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:52 am)RB says…”Please let go of this kind of bashing. WW2 is over. The Japanese companies have won their place with good products at good prices. They create a high bar, and we all hope the Volt is even better.”
I would submit we are still at war with Japan on the economic front. They entered this country selling products with an unfair cost advantage, which they continue to enjoy, and have continued to have a closed market for our cars in Japan. Every time someone buys an import, those profits get sucked away to their home country. With the quality of vehicles being produced by Detroit today, there is no reason to even have to consider an import anymore.
The Volt and its several iterations are certainly going to be game changing, and when the 10X technology is perfected, we can look forward electric ranges in the few hundreds instead of the 40’s. Watching the progress is exciting.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:55 am)On topic: I love to look at concept cars. A good chunk of my time at auto shows is spent having a ‘looksie’ at these 20 inch wheeled wonders behind ropes…but I confess I am getting a little tired of EV concepts, and my excitement to see another one is at a all time low….regardless of who is putting it out.
/taps foot impatiently
SIde note: To me, the most exciting EV from GM would be a existing car (like the Malibu) with a EV sticker on the side and a salesman saying, “We are going to convert this car to a EV…gimmie your money”
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:06 am)That’s a good idea statik. Have GM ship engine less Malibu’s to dealerships. The customer will choose from electric motor size/range options. Mr Goodwrench completes the deal.
=D~
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:13 am)*** 659 Day’s to go ***
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:14 am)Oil rises on OPEC supply cut pledge
Organization is willing to cut output further to stabilize crude prices.
02/09/09 ~ OPEC has said it will cut oil supply by 4.2 million barrels per day in an attempt to boost oil prices.
LONDON (Reuters) — Oil rose towards $41 a barrel on Monday after OPEC said it was willing to cut oil output further if needed to stabilize oil prices.
=D~
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:19 am)RB Says: @8 says
#5 sudhaman says “..defeat the japanese…”
——————–
Please let go of this kind of bashing. WW2 is over. The Japanese companies have won their place with good products at good prices. They create a high bar, and we all hope the Volt is even better.
************************************************************************************
to RB, I would understand what your saying if the Japanese had traded fairly through the decades but that’s not what happened. Japan did whatever it took to monopolize industries at our expenses….and they don’t feel bad about it..It’s not they are smarter than us but the fact we let them trade unfairly. Click on the link below and read all the facts that can be substantiated. I’m old enough to remember a lot of these unfair trade practices.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:20 am)“Right now its not a formal process. Individually people will say I either do or don’t like the Volt, they say its not my style or its not my type or whatever.”
I’d say on this forum most of the dissent is people saying it’s not my kind of price range. How bout an Econovoltec. One that could seat 7 or hold full sheets of plywood would be ideal.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:22 am)@17 statik Says:
To me, the most exciting EV from GM would be a existing car (like the Malibu) with a EV sticker on the side…
That seems to be exactly what Chrysler is looking at doing. In addition to their 2 EREV/REEV concepts (a sedan and a sports car), they are looking at converting a minivan (Town & Country EV), and 2 SUVs (Jeep Wrangler Unlimited EV and Jeep Patriot EV. Although only one will be out in 2010, but they say they are planning another 3 by 2013.
https://www.chryslerllc.com/en/innovation/envi/overview/
I admit, I’ll have a look at them.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:23 am)Detfan #16 says,
With the quality of vehicles being produced by Detroit today, there is no reason to even have to consider an import anymore.
————–
Maybe so, but since when does truth out do perception?
Many people think that Japanese cars are better, and the Japanese have done an excellent job marketing that. Perception is so important. There are 8 people in my department. Only 1 has an American car.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:25 am)sudhaman #5
American car companies have made so many mistakes in the past (fact or perception) and the Japanese have capitalized on that.
Why call them names because of it?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:31 am)This would be the perfect time for all OEM’s to get together to agree upon industry standards for the OEM as well as the aftermarket incorporation of *Auxiliary Traction Battery Packs* which can be “Plug & Play” of one or two standard designs for all Plug-ins.
Great things can come from this:
1. the original pack may have more shallow discharge, (helping to reduce warranty claims where we would like more range at our extra cost when we have a block of cash available later),
2. the aftermarket can participate according to OEM standards in our Green evolution,
3. These auxiliary packs may be readily resold to others if your driving needs change, or, you need to get your cash back, or you later sell your E-REV and the new owner does not need the extra range,
4. The aftermarket parts industries can realize participation, and, thereby, help to more quickly get pack costs down,
5, These auxiliary packs could be feasibly “leased” (easily-transferable) for short periods of time or longer periods of time. (I do not recommend the leasing of the OEM integral pack. Too many financial participants for the accounting integrity to remain reasonable.)
6. If a problem ever occurs on the original pack, then a smaller auxiliary pack can take over the job more seamlessly, although at a markedly reduced range. (Which would be apparently-diagnostic).
7. Second Auxiliary packs would be extremely carbon-offset friendly.
Where in our entire manufacturing industries of all products,
*nothing* else would be more carbon-reducing than these battery packs in cutting 20 pounds per gallon of gasoline-CO2.
So, auxiliary-range packs would be an extremely good thing to do.
8. Quickly adopting industry standards for auxiliary packs that mount in the trunk could immediately bring widespread optimism in a more near-term opportunity-of-participation for many unemployed to “hang-in-there” for a brighter future for all of us.
9. As our economies are built on transactions, the best ones to promote are those which at the same time are the ones that kill CO2. All levels of business need to be able to somehow participate here, but with stringent guidelines for precision product production, handling, safety, and longevity and an interconnection-module (for charging, contactor-discharging, monitoring-testing, and diagnostics-processing) (NEVER just as parallel!) as required by the OEM’s.
Dan Petit Austin, TX
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:31 am)Go GM, Ford,Chrysler Go. Be the leaders like you were once and bring your automotive prowess back!!!
Go Volt Go! I can not wait to buy one!!!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:44 am)We REALLY need Voltec!
As 2009 progresses we’ll see everything imported becoming more expensive due to Congress and the Fed debasing the fiat $Dollar. The $Dollar Hegemony is OVER!
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2006/cr021506.htm
Many Austrian economists are expecting as much as 200% inflation by the end of the year spearheaded by much higher prices on imported products. If they are only half right, it’s still signals that we are steaming into a giant economic iceberg that Congress and the President refuse to acknowledge or avoid.
This rapid inflation and end of the US $Dollar hegemony will place even greater economic and national security emphasis on domestic energy sources because the US will no longer be able to afford a global empire to secure foreign sources.
This is going to be a rough couple of years as we transition to a MUCH lower standard of living so enjoy the cheap gas while you can. It won’t last long.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:58 am)Bring the Converj, oh please, oh please, oh please.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:58 am)GM is building a $1 billion plant in Brazil, scheduled to open in 2012. In times like this, where do they get money to do something like that?
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=12396&ArticleId=320909
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:59 am)Trivial I know, but I thought Voltec was meant to convey ‘Volt Technology’, which seems very reasonable.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:02 am)Breaking News: GM and Chrysler awaiting next round of TARP money -with photo!
http://flickr.com/photos/azorina/91361814/
Maybe the Government should demand that an actual EREV be independently tested – - – - BEFORE we accept EREV concepts as tickets to the all you can eat buffet.
Better yet. Lets just let the market work.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:03 am)#24, Rashid Amul says . . .”Maybe so, but since when does truth out do perception?
Many people think that Japanese cars are better, and the Japanese have done an excellent job marketing that. Perception is so important. There are 8 people in my department. Only 1 has an American car.”
That is certainly the transition we now find ourselves in. Signs are showing a stabilization of retail market share, and I believe 2009 will show market share growth against the import companies. Certainly a slow process, to be sure, but the Lamda crossovers, the Malibu, the CTS, are all doing their part to change the “perception”. More and more people are seeing these vehicles and their reviews and beginning to consider domestic again. I’m actually one of them. I traded my 2003 Acura TL for the 2008 Chevy Malibu last January, and I have not regretted the purchase at all. I am hopeful that over the next 5 years the domestics will be profitable, competitive, and have a 55% combined market share in the U.S. The Chevy Volt and its other iterations will, in no small part, help build market share, along with the Chevy Cruze next year, the Camaro this Spring, and the 30 MPG Equinox this summer.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:05 am)Raser Technologies is tracking to begin road testing of its prototype plug-in series hybrid electric vehicle powertrain for full-size 2wd & 4×4 SUVs and pickups by the end of March, according to a video update on the development status
http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/fev_jan09.html
Watch your back, GM!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:15 am)Cautious Fan Says: “GM is building a $1 billion plant in Brazil, scheduled to open in 2012. In times like this, where do they get money to do something like that?”
That’s not the only place GM is investing. All over the world GM is expanding their world reach. It won’t be too many years before the U.S. market is only 25% of GM’s sales. China has just passed us as the number one market in the world. With the U.S. market mature and stagnant, GM must make these investments to stay competitive. Remember, GM’s U.S. profit picture changes dramatically next year with over $10B in annual savings from their restructuring and negotiated labor contracts.
That’s why I believe that GM will subsidize the Chevy Volt from its $40,000 cost to build price, to $29,995 sticker price. That’s only half the subsidy that Toyota did with the first few years with the Prius, and when you subtract the $7,500 from the feds, you’ve got a very reasonably priced car.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:22 am)#15 Statik
I’m with you in doubting the sincerity of the negotiations. I just don’t see that GM has any leverage over them. We’ll see soon enough though. Looking forward to your running commentary.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:31 am)From April 6, 1901. Even Edison realized the key to electrification of the automobile was in advancing battery technology. He even had designed and built a alkaline battery to address this known issue but it didn’t meet the performance of the lead acid batteries. The Buffalo Electric carriage company had a run about that was sold primarily to wealthy women which had a range of 20-50 miles…… talk about deja vue. Here we are in 2009 talking about the very same subject and the very same range anxieties we were seeing in 1900….amazing!!!!! If only Edison was alive today. Perhaps we’d be advancing this technology!!!____________________________________________________
Edison May Solve the Problem
Key to the Completely Successful Automobile Lies in the Storage Battery
Buffalo Evening News
April 6, 1901
If it is a fact that the inventive genius of Edison is about to become an important factor in the development of the automobile it undoubtedly portends a complete revolution in an industry that has already reached astonishing proportions.
Ever since Mr. Edison perfected his system of sextuplex telegraphy his contribution to electrical mechanics has been continuous and occasionally amazing. Everything he has touched since he revolutionized the Morse system of telegraphy has yieled results that have facilitated the operations of mankind in some important department of productive activity. At the same time he has enriched physical science with many important discoveries, and these discoveries have been taken up by other electricians and inventors and applied in the devleopment of new forms of mechanical energy.
There are a good many reasons for hoping that the genius of this electrical wizard has come to the aid of the automobile. In the first place, there is general agreement among scientists that the perfect automobile would be an electromobile. The various devices for propelling carriages by steam, gasoline and compressed air by contrast seem like temporary makeshifts.
Another reason for hoping that the development of the automobile is to receive the benefit of a practical storage battery is the universal belief that the self-propelling carriage is to be the final solution to street-paving and good roads problems in this country. But the public is in a hesitant attitude regarding the automobile. There is an impression that the practical locomobile, adaptable to all purposes, has not been perfected. When it is perfected, it cannot fail to work a transformation in the systems of street paving in our cities and in the construction of rural highways.
The key to the automobile development of the future is the small, compact, powerful and permanent storage battery. If Mr. Edison has invented it, he has solved the locomobile problem.
Chicago Record-Harold
http://wnyheritagepress.org/photos_week_2006/electric_autos/electric_autos.htm
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:32 am)We need a minivan.
Should be an ideal platform. Plenty of room for the battery.
Enough with the suvs. They are so space inefficient compared to minivans.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:33 am)#32, detfan, “That is certainly the transition we now find ourselves in. Signs are showing a stabilization of retail market share,”
What signs are those? Actual stabilization of market share? Nope. GM was down HUGELY in January (the crash was led by their hybrids, which are expensive, unmarketable disasters). The ‘08 Malibu (nice enough but you don’t want it if you’re tall) is still outsold by the Accord and Camry and the ‘08 will soon have to do battle with new versions of both of those.
The New Camaro – that’s a complete laugher. The market for two-door sports coupes is practically gone. When people realized their sedans could be fun to drive (and this trend dates back to the Fiat 131 and Austin Marina) and have precise handling, the need for a two-door sporty coupe evaporated. GM killed the Camaro in 2002 for low sales. They killed the Monte Carlo for the same reaosn. The market doesn’t want these white elephants. GM is going to book a loss on this car. It doesn’t help that they diddled until after the Challenger came out and took another chunk of what little remains of the retro market. They Camaro looks to be coming out “fat,” too. Luckily for GM, the Challenger is even fatter but the weight penalty is really going to hurt performance.
GM is still, rightfully, haunted by the ghosts of DexCool, plastic intake manifold and disintegrating gasket disasters. Each of those known problems was built into a range of engines for a decade. Sure, everybody screws up from time to time. But GM could see the results of these problems coming back into service bays within the first couple years of vehicle ownership. They continued to build those problems into the cars for another 5 to 7 years after they KNEW they were building engines with problems.
Toyota and Honda don’t hang their customers out to dry like that. They’ve picked up practically a generation of car buyers who bought GM cars with baked-in problems and then had to pay for expensive repairs that were entirely avoidable. Much is made of Toyota’s steering system recalls. That recall was based on just 5 incidents, worldwide and Toyota moved quickly not just to remedy the problem in the field but also stopped building bad shafts. Much is made of camshaft failures in early Tundras. But you’ll note that much is made of camshaft failures in EARLY Tundras. Toyota swapped out engines that MIGHT have failure-prone camshafts and worked with the supplier to make sure the problem part was re-engineered promptly. Toyota also acted promptly to fix other issues. Yes, they stumble, but they look, aggressively, for problems in the field and they address them with re-engineered parts into their newer cars and with prompt recalls in the field.
GM never recalled the DexCool, plastic intake manifold or crap gasket cars to fix those problems. If you owned one of the millions of cars that had these problems built in, you ended up paying for expensive repairs in less than 100K miles or you took a beating on depreciation.
The new Aveo is, by some reports, a much better car than the old (it could not be possible to be worse) and it may have class-competitive fuel economy. But the Aveo nameplate is now widely thought to mean “Crap” in Korean. Even if it’s the best car on the road, sales will pick up steam only v-e-r-y slowly and GM won’t be able to get good transaction prices for years. With the Aveo and the Cobalt, GM’s “mindshare” in the compact segment is “bad fuel economy.” GM did this to themselves, too. The Cobalt fuel economy was unimpressive at its introduction in 2004 and GM left it that way for 4 years before fixing it. The Aveo, as noted, is worse. Fixing the Cobalt – at least the manual transmission version – turned out to be easy and it does now get class-competitive fuel economy. It’s just 4 years too late to make a difference. Ditto the Aveo.
The Equinox will have – if it really makes the numbers – class-leading fuel economy. That will be significant except people are stampeding away from SUVs. There will be little to no revenue growth there. GM would have been better off spending its money improving the fuel economy of the Malibu. By the way, look to Ford to manage better EPA numbers.
The Cruze is a developmental embarassment. One of the GM bigwigs recently talked about GM’s development work for the last 4 years… it’s all world cars, now. Except the Daewoo Lacetti (which is the Cruze) somehow isn’t a world car that can actually be shipped to the US market in a hurry. Soe the Daewoo Lacetti rebadge won’t happen for another year or so. That’s a lot of lost sales. You see echoes of this problem with the Saturn Astra, which cost $100million to redevelop for the US market and sells something like 1K/month. Built in Euros (which are expensive, compared to the dollar), the Astra is a money pit for Saturn.
I don’t know why it is that, time after time, the world’s largest automaker is caught flat-footed in the small car segment. You’d think the world’s largest automaker – oops, the former world’s largest automaker – could spend a tiny fraction of their gas-hog revenues to stay competent in small cars. But that’s never happened.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:43 am)The reason GM is expanding overseas is because they can make a profit in Brasil, & they are hardpressed to make a profit in North America.
I just finished my tax work which entailed my summing up my business mileage, so I checked to see what my energy cost would have been if I had owned a Volt last year. I spent just over $1300 on gasoline in 2008 driving a bit more than 12,000 miles. I exceeded 40 miles just 36 times, and my electricity bill would have been $162, and I would have put just 13.5 gallons in the tank for a charge of about $27. So $190 vs. $1300. Plus the resale value of the Volt will probably be much better than my RAV4. Plus the government will probably give me a tax credit to install a wind generator or photovoltaic cell on the roof of my home.
I don’t care if it is Ford or GM, I just want to buy an American made primarily electric vehicle that seats 4 and looks like a car not a toy. I do not want to make my contribution towards cutting my own countries throat economically by buying another foreign car. The exception being Canada, as the dollars flow pretty smoothly in both directions over that border.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:45 am)______________________________________________________
Build it fast.
GM needs to determine if they are going to be in the “runway concept” business or the “build it fast” business.
The EV revolution will be a very fast paced proposition. Consumers will view EVs more along the lines of a quickly improving electric appliance (think computer, plasma tv, digital camera) and will not be interested in seeing what they might one day “in concept” be able to purchase. Imagine a computer company, having as a central marketing strategy, going to trade shows to unveil “concept” computers that they are “considering” selling in the distant future (3+ years).
The Chevy VOLT Concept served GM well in terms of generating initial consumer interest around the VOLTEC. Now that the starting gun has fired, its going to be a horse race of who can build EVs/EREVs “TODAY” in volume, at high quality, at low cost, and (sit down for this one) at a profit. The car making world has changed.
Having said the above, I’m glad that GM is “in concept” “considering” using the VOLTEC platform across its portfolio line.
______________________________________________________
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:46 am)Good article, Lyle. Just shows us that GM is thinking ahead. Now, if they can only start generating some sales to help keep them above water.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:53 am)I find it shocking that Lutz will retire before the Volt comes out.
He is going to retire at the end of 2009. I hope this is not health related.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:56 am)Ziv (#39) said:
“I don’t care if it is Ford or GM (or whatever), I just want to buy an American made primarily electric vehicle that seats 4 and looks like a car not a toy. I do not want to make my contribution towards cutting my own countries throat economically by buying another foreign car.”
YES! This is EXACTLY what the electrification of the automobile is all about. It’s about imported oil vs. domestic (hopefully renewable) energy. It’s about keeping US $Dollars HERE improving OUR standard of living INSTEAD of sending them away to improve the standard of others at our detriment.
If the plane depressurizes and the O2 masks drop from the ceiling, ALWAYS place one on yourself BEFORE placing one on the child next to you. You can’t help anyone if you’ve passed out or you’re dead. Economics and charity are exactly the same!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (10:57 am)GM and concept cars… let’s build the dream concept cars… Keep everyone hyped up and what COULD happen if GM gets all their bail out money AND gets it act together..
It is not going to happen… so far all I am seeing is smoke and mirrors..
Ford, Honda, Toyota all have real hybrids on the road right now.. some better than others.. Chevy Malibu hybrid ?? nice looking car but I am not spending and extra $8000 for a 5 % improvement in milage. (that’s what it prices out here in Central Alberta Canda).
Come on GM… face reality !! If you do not have a True Hybrid (Volt like) vehicle in large volumes at the dealerships by mid 2010.. you are definately a dead horse in this race..
I want a Volt… but so far I don’t see one…. Come September.. the Ford Fusion Hybrid is probably going to be in my driveway..
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:01 am)#25
Rashiid Amul Says:
February 9th, 2009 at 9:25 am
sudhaman #5
American car companies have made so many mistakes in the past (fact or perception) and the Japanese have capitalized on that.
Why call them names because of it?
====================================================
It’s probably something he’s passionate about. He doesn’t want his home team (USA) to lose the battle on car design, sales, engineering, etc to one of our top rivals, the Japanese.
I follow the same or similar feelings.
If you don’t understand, don’t worry about it. It’s probably an American/United States thing.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:02 am)OH NO!? …we can only blame Lutz for another 10 months!!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:04 am)#40 CDAVIS
I want my Volt now, too. I was under the impression that GM is building the Volt on an accelerated schedule.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:08 am)Dallas Morning News 2/9/09 (front page)
“Plug-in cars raise hopes,questions”
Good stuff
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:11 am)@13 Jim in PA,
>> “Voltec vs Vortec.”
Gotta say, I LOL’ed at your commentary on this. Heh heh.
>> (etc.) hilarity ensues…
You don’t by chance write listing descriptions for TV Guide do you??!?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:13 am)ww2 is over . but the japanese are no way better than americans . the japanese workers are paid less and they manipulate their currencies to keep exports cheap . they have become a powerful economy and that reflects in their currency and they shy away from this. why should we americans consume japanes goods the answer u may say affordable . the saying goes everything comes at a cost
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:13 am)Oh please great gods of automotive design, I would love, love, love a little Rabbit or Fit sized Voltec hatchback. Not a terrarium like the current Volt or the Prius, but a real wagonesque hatchback. Small and compact for me the dog. OK, with maybe a little pull out ramp so she could walk up into the back. And separate lift up glass on the hatch so she gets more air on hot days. A fan when I’m not in the car. Built in biscuit holder. Voila, the Chevy “Labrador”!
Loving this site and can’t wait for my Volt! Go GM!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:13 am)Here is the ditty on Lutz’s retirement:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aSMO_uCD.Rrg&refer=news
Huzzah…the world is good!
…and not soon enough.
(Wonder if the pink tie will be send to Barrett Jackson to aution off)
Side note: He is effectively ‘out’ now…as he switches titles to ‘Senior Advisor’ in a few weeks. I’m guess GM is contractually obligated to pay him through the year’s end.
He has been pretty steadfast that he wasn’t retiring anytime soon of late, so naturally we are left to wonder if he is being pushed out…or he is ill.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:14 am)ww2 is over . but the japanese are no way better than americans . the japanese workers are paid less and they manipulate their currencies to keep exports cheap . they have become a powerful economy and that reflects in their currency and they shy away from this. why should we americans consume japanes goods the answer u may say affordable . the saying goes everything comes at a cost . if we buy cheap cars americans jobs at risk.dont we realise that
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:14 am)Lutz retiring “one year” before the Volt is “for sale”? That is strange indeed.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:20 am)#54 GXT said:
Lutz retiring “one year” before the Volt is “for sale”? That is strange indeed.
=========================
/insert pithy comment here
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:20 am)What they need is something with 5 seats so that people with more than 2 kids can buy it. Small minivan, small car, both, whatever.
Lyle,
It might be interesting to develop some type of new Voltec feature poll where there is a list of 5-10 attributes that the Volt does not have but people would like to see. People could then vote for the 2-3 attributes they would most like to see. I am sure GM would be interested in those results.
Nathan
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:21 am)GM has a ‘official release’ now on their website:
Bob Lutz moves to Senior Advisor Role; Will Retire at End of 2009; Tom Stephens Becomes Vice Chairman – Global Product Development
DETROIT – GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner today announced that Robert A. Lutz, GM Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, will transition to a new role effective April 1, 2009 as Vice Chairman and Senior Advisor. Lutz, 76, will provide strategic input into GM’s global design and key product initiatives until his retirement at the end of 2009. He will continue to report to Wagoner.
Wagoner also announced that effective April 1, 2009 the GM Board of Directors elected Thomas G. Stephens, Vice Chairman – Global Product Development, reporting to President and Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson. Stephens, 60, is currently Executive Vice President, Global Powertrain and Global Quality. In this new assignment, Stephens will maintain his responsibility for overseeing GM’s global quality activity.
Concurrent with this appointment, GM is restructuring its global powertrain group to integrate powertrain functional activities into their respective global GM functions. Accordingly, in his new role, Stephens will have responsibility for global powertrain engineering, in addition to global design, product engineering, product planning and program management. Powertrain manufacturing will report to Gary Cowger, Group Vice President of GM Global Manufacturing and Labor Relations. Other staffs that support the GM Powertrain organization will be integrated into their respective global functions. These moves represent another important step in GM’s restructuring initiative to create a leaner, more efficient organization.
“Bob Lutz was already a legendary automotive product guy when he rejoined GM in 2001,” Wagoner said, “and he’s added to that by leading the creation of a string of award-winning vehicles for GM during his time here. His 46 years of experience in the global automotive business have been invaluable to us. I’ve personally learned a great deal from Bob and have very much enjoyed the time we’ve worked together,” Wagoner added. “I’m looking forward to Bob’s continued contributions to GM for the remainder of 2009 – and I know the impact of his efforts leading GM global product development will continue for years to come.
“Tom Stephens is the perfect guy to take the reins of GM’s global product development,” Wagoner continued. “He’s had extensive experience in virtually every aspect of our global product development activities. With his 40 years at GM, Tom has an extraordinary understanding of our products and our organization, and is highly respected worldwide. I’m confident that with Tom’s passion for great products and vast knowledge of advanced propulsion, he will continue to raise the bar in executing outstanding GM cars and trucks
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=51898
Side note: This makes 2 high level personnel exodus in a week (Percy Barnevik quit the board…which might signal a signficant ‘Euro-GM’ move in the offing that he isn’t so keen on)
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:24 am)#11 DaveK
Unfortunately, when gov’t creates a public trough, it becomes more cost-effective to fight for a place at the trough then to go and create actual value. One of those pesky, difficult to quanitfy externalities of the interference. WSJ reports that GM is buying back some of Delphi, not because it makes business sense, but because it’s “part of a strategy to qualify for additional gov’t loans.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123415386607962525.html
Statik
How does GM buying Delphi allow them to qualify for additional gov’t loans? Is this a race to become big so you’re “too big to fail?”
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:26 am)It’s of my opinion that GM should avoid building full size trucks and SUVs with the Voltec drivetrain–at least until GM has a more green image. Toyota can get away with building Trucks and SUVs with the worst fuel economy in their class because they have the Prius with the little angel’s halo floating over it.
I personally think it would be a good idea to have full-size electric SUVs and all, but environmentalists will only use them as ammunition to say that GM is evil and their vehicles waste tons of
gasolineelectricity. Look at their hybrid Tahoe and Yukon–even though they save a lot more gas per year than most hybrids, tree huggers say that they are stupid and a waste of money. Mind you, if all you’re going to do is drive around by yourself with no cargo, I guess that they would be a waste of money.http://www.mpgillusion.com/
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:27 am)Sweet! GM, put out an awesome sport wagon Voltec design that I can get behind and love dearly… and then go bankrupt. I don’t know how much longer I can watch America in it’s death throws.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:35 am)Lutz is old, maybe he’s just ready to retire. With the Volt he’s made his place in history. Enjoy your Alpha jet.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:35 am)38: charlie h:
You say that Toyota and Honda don’t hide their problems? Have you ever Googled the Toyota Engine Sludge problem? I’ve also just received a letter in the mail in regards to a class action lawsuit against Acura in regards to odometers spinning too fast–which leads to warranties expiring faster and extra over mileage lease charges.
Wonderful.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:39 am)Enough with the concepts, show us some hardware we can buy.
I share the concerns about GM’s financial situation. I am cringing waiting for the shoe of the “viability plan” to drop. I do not believe that the American public is going to stand for GM becoming a long term ward of the US government.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:49 am)#58 Cautious Fan said:
Statik
How does GM buying Delphi allow them to qualify for additional gov’t loans? Is this a race to become big so you’re “too big to fail?”
===========================
No, its not really a “too big to fail” on this one…I think they already have that imprinted on the American psyche pretty well. The thinking is that they are going to accomplish ‘jack-squat’ with the bondholders and the union, so they are knee-jerking to make up some stuff to put in the plan that says they are indeed still working on it.
Specifically, cutting where they can (see last minute, thousands of white collar jobs cut)…and to submitting the discussions with Delphi as part of its viability plan.
Specifically:
We should be littered with more plant closures out of GM this week ahead of ‘D-Day’….look for engine, stamping, etc. plant closures. (along with regular assembly)
Some of these closures would be nicely replaced ‘on paper, inside the viability plan’ by Delphi lower wage ones, with the added bonus of (thanks to some judicial wisdom) non paid health care and life insurance benefits to their employees — basically all the stuff the union will not capitulate to…and then some.
Side note: It is a little ‘hail Mary-ish,’ and maybe too convoluted to be digested as anything but a smoke-screen…but it actually makes sense, (were it not for the fafillion other problems on their back), someone at GM is burning the midnight oil.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:51 am)The more interesting question is how you fit E-REV cars into your lineup. Toyota is moving towards a “Prius” line. Does it make sense for GM to have a E-REV car in this line and one in another? Given that they will share a platform and presumably many parts, does this unnecessarily complicate service? Would it be better for them to simply have a Voltec line?
Here is a short revisit of yesterday’s thread about Nissan applying for auto loans. Here is a snippet from an article about the loss Nissan just announced:
“Nissan’s job cuts in Japan — more aggressive than its domestic rivals — show its strategy to take production overseas and take advantage of the soaring yen but that would make the Nissan brand less popular in its home market, Katou said.”
A more independent approach on Nissan’s part is not completely surprising since at this point it’s a one part European and one and a half parts Japanese. But the question is: if Nissan is committed to bringing high paid manufacturing jobs to the US why wouldn’t we encourage that behavior?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:51 am)@16 Detfan: …WW2 is over…
Get your head out of the sand man. Take a look around. We are getting our butts kicked by the Germans and Japanese everyday here in America. EVERYONE knows they make the best cars. If you don’t agree you are just lost man. WW2 over, I think not, the battlefield may have changed but the players have NOT. This is an economic WAR and it is costing Americans JOBS and LIVES.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:53 am)I see now why Bob Lutz just announced his retirement.
No point being a CEO of a company that very shortly will cease to exist.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad_m06A_gtLk&refer=home
Take care Bob.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:55 am)One more time,
Plug-in hybrid cars spark hopes, questions on cutting pollution
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/020909dnprotexascleancars.4108ab6.html
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:55 am)#43 Tim
It’s about keeping US $Dollars HERE improving OUR standard of living INSTEAD of sending them away to improve the standard of others at our detriment.
__________________________________________________________
You confuse me Tim. Once second you’re quoting austrian economists, and the next you’re denying the value of comparative advantages among nations and treating trade like a zero-sum game. I’m not disagreeing with your conclusions, I’m just struggling to see how their consistent. And if these “others” work hard and smart, they deserve a good standard of living same as you and me. I’d even relunctantly put Canadians in that group
For me at least, electric cars are about none of things you listed. I want an electric car because it has the potential of saving ME money and hassle. There’s no WE or US about it. Electric cars could become more economical then today’s cars. Lower operating costs, less maintenance, and improved resale. Volt is a down payment on that potential.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:06 pm)#65 DonC said:
Here is a short revisit of yesterday’s thread about Nissan applying for auto loans. Here is a snippet from an article about the loss Nissan just announced:
“Nissan’s job cuts in Japan — more aggressive than its domestic rivals — show its strategy to take production overseas and take advantage of the soaring yen but that would make the Nissan brand less popular in its home market, Katou said.”
A more independent approach on Nissan’s part is not completely surprising since at this point it’s a one part European and one and a half parts Japanese. But the question is: if Nissan is committed to bringing high paid manufacturing jobs to the US why wouldn’t we encourage that behavior?
==============================
I agree with you here. There is a lot of crazy stuff going on right now in the world…but not everything is working against US interests. Times like this also open up great opportunities.
Some things, like the wicked high yen versus the dollar is almost forcing the Japanese to move a good portion of their base to the US, and a little extra incentive on the top in the form of 1/3 off any new project sounds like just the right ticket.
Sometimes it is easy to confuse what feels wrong with something that is actually right. Sure, it feels wrong to give a Japanese company a subsidy in these times, but if that subsidy is encouraging transferring a good foreign jobs and manufacturing, and making them domestic….points to us.
I don’t really see this as any different than the Chinese giving ‘incentives’ to have US companies makes all their crap in China…only this time, America is Japan’s China.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:08 pm)Concepts != Production.
I’d rather NOT see any ‘concepts’ until they have been given the green light for production. I’d rather not get my hopes up.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Bob Lutz will be replaced by Thomas Stephens.
Hooray. It’s about time GM got some giddyup in its step.
Lutz is like 60 years old or something (almost petrified).
Look for GM to kick it in overdrive in 2010.
America is not a country for OLD MEN. If your old then move to Japan, they will respect you over there. In America you are just in the way.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:12 pm)#64 Statik
On large defense programs, contractors source parts to as many States as possible. That gives you more political power to argue for you program because you can threaten each senator with job losses.
I wonder if that’s GM’s strategy with Delphi?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:16 pm)#65 DonC
Who knows what the best answer is. I sure don’t. Maybe we should just recognize the economic manipulation should not be a gov’t function. They have neither the necessary information nor the incentive to make these decisions effectively, and just leave the decisions up to those who posses both.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Three words – Legendary Honda Reliability. Add the Insight coming out in months – not years – and a sub $20,000 price tag – GM has got a fight on it’s hands. Yes, the Volt is better, but it’s better 23 months from now, not today. Glaciers move faster.
I suspect Big Bob knows something we don’t. Hmmmm. I wonder if pink ties go well with golden parachutes?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Cautious Fan (#68)
I’m sorry for my ambiguity, let me explain:
I was speaking to the TRUE cost of imported oil in a ”FREE” economy. (keep in mind that our economy hasn’t been truly free since the Fed was created in 1913).
Once you factor in the cost of the global empire to secure the oil and the tax credits to produce, transfer, store and sell the oil products, health care costs etc. the REAL cost of oil is well over $480/bbl.
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Archives2007/RealCost.html
In a truly FREE market, ALL costs would be represented to the end user instead of transferring on the bulk of the true cost to others in the form of tax and inflation redistribution.
If people knew the ENTIRE true cost, they would have refused to pay it and we would found alternatives to oil. As a side note, this is why the Statists will never allow the income tax to be replaced by a consumption “fair” tax. The Statists want “theirs” FIRST and they don’t want us to realize the REAL costs of Statism or their global empire. If the TRUE cost of oil was represented at the pump, we would not even be in the middle-east and we wouldn’t be spending over $1 Trillion/yr. maintaining a global empire.
If what you pay at the pump reflected the TRUE cost of oil, we would have all been driving electric cars and using much more mass transportation many decades ago all powered by renewable energy. Necessity is the mother of invention.
I hope this helps clear up a few things.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:43 pm)#46 Murray
“OH NO!? …we can only blame Lutz for another 10 months!!”
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No, it is like someone else who just left the national scene. If anything goes wrong over the next 4,5, 6 years or maybe longer, he will get the blame no matter how long he has been gone from his office. History is written by the new guy coming in. Good luck, Bob Lutz. We will certainly miss you. Semper Fi.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:47 pm)#45 Zach
“If you don’t understand, don’t worry about it. It’s probably an American/United States thing.”
———————–
Zach, Rashiid is just as much an American as you are. Names don’t make a person an American. That was kinda thoughtless. Apparently you haven’t been following the comments on this site very much.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Charlie H #38 says,
GM is still, rightfully, haunted by the ghosts of DexCool, plastic intake manifold and disintegrating gasket disasters
—-
Yup. I had one of those. Head gasket went at 50K miles. After that, problem after problem. I never bought another American car again and joined the mindset of those bashing American quality.
However, I have since changed my mind. Especially after joining this site. My next car will most assuredly be a Volt.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:04 pm)#71 Young Blood
Kiss my ever loving 65 year old ass. One day you may be so lucky to reach “old” age. Keep talking like that and I kinda doubt it.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:09 pm)I hope Lutz bailing is not a sign that the ship is sinking. Makes me wonder if he’s not leaving to avoid any federal subpoenas on the bailout distributions and the like. Ha, N Riley….funny.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:10 pm)As predicted, Mr. Lutz did not survive the global warming crock comment. So sad.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:12 pm)VERY WELL SAID N Riley !
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:16 pm)N.Riley #77 & Zach # 45
—
I’m cool. No offense whatsoever was taken.
Zach, I am second generation American and do completely understand where sudhaman #5 is coming from.
I just don’t think it is necessary to vent like that here, that’s all.
When it comes to the Americans or the Japanese, neither side has been perfect.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Young Blood #71,
That was uncalled for and you are a disgrace to young people in this country.
I happen to look up to the older generation here. N. Riley, Tag, Nasaman, Noel Park, and others. Even Statik (although I am pretty sure he is younger than I am)
We can learn a lot from their collective experience.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:19 pm)#75 Tim:
Too true, alas. Well done. Externalized costs are a world wide way of life, unfortunately for the future of the planet.
As to the question of empire, I have invoked Professor Chalmers Johnson here many times. His writings reflect much of what you are saying. It is not a coincidence that the second book of his “Blowback Trilogy” is titled “The Sorrows of Empire”.
#76 N Riley:
I respectfully disagree. I will not miss Bob Lutz for one minute. As far as I am concerned, his name will be forever linked with a string of disastrous product decisions. I just saw a Pontiac Solstice pull out of the parking lot across the street. Just one more product whose development costs will never be recovered in its short life cycle, IMHO. How about the GTO, G8, the thankfully stilborn El Camino revival, et al. Somebody, charlie h I believe, even blamed him for the SSR the other day. What a joke.
charlie did a brilliant rundown on all of these the other day, with which I totally agreed. Note his comment above at #38. I have made the same observations before re: the Cobalt and the Aveo, but he does a really good job.
#77 N Riley:
I respectfully totally agree. I too cringed when I saw Zach’s comment about my good friend Rashiid, but i was too mentally lazy to do anything about it. All credit to you for saying what so importantly needed to be said.
GM-Volt Bloggers:
Congratulations to all of you for a whole string of thoughtful and insightful comments on this thread. Whether I agree with all of you or not, I honor every one of you for your hard work and valuable input. Well done!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:19 pm)@71 Young Blood,
>> Lutz is like 60 years old or something (almost petrified).
Your estimate of age is as crappy as your judgment of character.
Lutz is actually 77 years old.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lutz
I’ll bet you $5 that when/if you reach that age, you won’t be vice chairman of anything, nor flying fighter jets for that matter. Cut the guy a little slack. And grow some respect for those who’ve gone before you.
>> America is not a country for OLD MEN.
>> In America you are just in the way.
It’s just damnably sad that you think that way.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:30 pm)When are they announcing the Voltec Corvette???
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:30 pm)Mr. Lutz,
Good bye sir. I hope you enjoy your retirement.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:31 pm)#79 N Riley:
LMAO. Me too.
#86 Mike-O-Matic:
LOL!
Did you ever hear Jerry Garcia’s Bluegrass band, “Old And In The Way”? Named after a famous old Bluegrass song of the same name.
He had Peter Rowan, and I can’t remember how many other famous players. I’m not much of a Dead fan, but Jerry was a heck of a banjo player. He said that, If the Greatful Dead had not worked out, his other ambition in life was to play banjo with Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys.
Keep it up boys and girls. You’re on a roll today.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:32 pm)#85 Noel Park
While we don’t always agree, we respectfully disagree at times. The operative word here is “respectfully”. Most of us are respectful of others and generally can agree on one thing or the other. One hundred percent agreement is not an achievable goal and should not even be sought after. Once you receive 100% agreement, you only need one person making decisions. And I am the only one I can trust to make all decisions the way I would like. (! am joking). (Well, maybe not.)
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:47 pm)I wouldn’t get too excited over any of GM’s concept cars because we’ve already learned that when they get to a production stage, they turn into yawners! The Volt concept was great, the real Volt, not so much. The Converj concept great, we know what the production model will look like, just another average car, like the Volt, no style, no boldness, just another yawner. I’ll probably stay with the Chrysler 200C which has style and a boldness to it, unless they crap out too.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:49 pm)AH, there’s my comment at #91, thought it got dropped.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:49 pm)#58 Cautious Fan says “Unfortunately, when gov’t creates a public trough, it becomes more cost-effective to fight for a place at the trough then to go and create actual value.”
This is a salient point. The answer is that if it’s necessary to intervene you need an exit strategy. IOW you have to pan for getting out as you plan to get in. If the intervention is short lived then it’s not a big deal.
This is BTW the main point made by Podesta’s think tank. Their template is the Chrysler intervention which occurred 40 years ago. FWIW figuring how to do with with the auto industry is really small potatoes next to figuring out how to do this with the banking industry.
#75 Tim
So if oil has huge externalities, shouldn’t there be a tax on oil usage which equals the externalities and thereby imposes the right charge on the industry which is imposing them on society?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:50 pm)Easy now!
To error is human, to forgive divine.
I choose to forgive “Young Blood” for his comment (#71). He has some growing up to do. Then again, don’t we all? After all, part of every man’s house is made of glass ..
To learn from one’s mistakes creates wisdom. Apparently, Mr. Lutz (a man of significant experience) has learned from his past mistakes as well as from his many successes. Bob Lutz is now and always will be a larger than life icon of the automotive world.
Only time will tell if “Voltec” is (1) GM’s sincere and well meaning attempt to electrify the automobile or (2) another shell game to win support for corporate (un)wel(not)fare.
If GM is operating under option one, I wish them the best of success. If they are trying to pull a “fast one” under option 2, then they will ultimately be out of business in a few years once people catch on. A $Billion spent on a new plant in South American using OUR tax money does not fill me with optimism.
Anyway, our best hope still lies in the Free market and a wild card…
Common EEStor! Daddy needs a new electric car!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:56 pm)#93 Tim
Generally I would agree about the glass house. But, the glass in my house was broke out years ago. That’s why I don’t mind throwing a “rock” back a a fellow rock thrower. But, a good point, never the less.
Edited: But, I do agree completely with your view about GM. I truly hope they are operating with option 1 in mind also. I don’t think the American public would stand for option 2 very long. GM’s business would dry up faster the water behind Young Blood’s ears if that were so.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:58 pm)#75 and #85
You have it backwards. ‘Free-market’ capitalism is ALL ABOUT externalizing costs (e.g. dumping waste in a public stream, etc.), because the only concern is the company’s shareholders, not the ‘commonwealth’—this is not a value judgment that is simply the system. You can put outsourcing to a low-wage country in the same category—viewed as good for the company involved. Of course if every company does it then there are no jobs for the customers, but an individual company cannot act on that.
The only recourse the public has to control this built-in tendency is government—for which the primary function is to protect the common good (not very successfully at the moment). To use the example above, laws against dumping waste.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:00 pm)I would submit we are still at war with Japan on the economic front. They entered this country selling products with an unfair cost advantage, which they continue to enjoy,
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Ya got it backwards.
The Big 3 have an unfair cost dis-advantage.
Japanese cars bought in the US cost what they should cost. The Big 3 production costs are excessive due to unfair and excessive labor contracts which the automakers were pushed into by our unfair labor laws.
For each hour of labor in a big 3 car, the Big 3 producers pay a total of $72 in wages, pensions, benefits, and retiree benefits. The US based Japanese plants pay $48. This needs to stop. We certainly should not continue to pump taxpayer funds into the bg 3 in order to fund this disparity.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:15 pm)#39 Ziv
Ziv’s comments, shown below, prove the opposite of his point. at $4/gallon for gas, buying a Volt makes no economic sense. It would have saved him only $1,100 per year, but cost an extra $10,000 to purchase (net of rebate).
The Volt will remain a niche product, apealing to the small minority of green zealots who are willing to make personal financial sacrifices in order to reduce their personal carbon footprint, or to get us off foreign oil. The tragedy of the commons shows us that 99% of humans will not behave this way.
I am a great believer in the PHEV concept, but it will only become mainstream family transportation by means of some combination of higher fuel prices, higher CAFE standards, and reduced cost to purchase a PHEV.
It has been stated on these pages that 90% of the cost of a PHEV battery is material cost, making it seem that reduced cost to purchase a PHEV is not going to be a significant factor.
The reason GM is expanding overseas is because they can make a profit in Brasil, & they are hardpressed to make a profit in North America.
I just finished my tax work which entailed my summing up my business mileage, so I checked to see what my energy cost would have been if I had owned a Volt last year. I spent just over $1300 on gasoline in 2008 driving a bit more than 12,000 miles. I exceeded 40 miles just 36 times, and my electricity bill would have been $162, and I would have put just 13.5 gallons in the tank for a charge of about $27. So $190 vs. $1300. Plus the resale value of the Volt will probably be much better than my RAV4. Plus the government will probably give me a tax credit to install a wind generator or photovoltaic cell on the roof of my home.
I don’t care if it is Ford or GM, I just want to buy an American made primarily electric vehicle that seats 4 and looks like a car not a toy. I do not want to make my contribution towards cutting my own countries throat economically by buying another foreign car. The exception being Canada, as the dollars flow pretty smoothly in both directions over that border.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:16 pm)Cautious Fan Says: “GM is building a $1 billion plant in Brazil, scheduled to open in 2012. In times like this, where do they get money to do something like that?”
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They have to get away from the UAW to survive.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:23 pm)What they need is something with 5 seats so that people with more than 2 kids can buy it. Small minivan, small car, both, whatever.
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Lots of good professional and self trained engineers post reallty great comments on this page, but few think like marketers.
A company with a 4 seater product will see very few incremental sales from a 5 seater. How many families have exactly 3 kids at home, and how many years do they stay in that condition?
The families with just 2 kids are already served by a 4 seater, and families with 4 or more kids are not likely to buy a 5 seater.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:24 pm)#98 Tom H
One other way for GM to “get away from” the UAW is to do a chapter 11, but GM does not want to do that. They may be forced to do it one day. They should shed themselves of the UAW and a lot of other “bad deals”. Problem is they would mire themselves down once again if they were to get away from the UAW. The employee base in the rust belt is too union ingrained to move away from union control. People need to stand together for the common good, yes, but not be controlled by the common good. We can all hope for a resurgence of American auto manufacturing in the U.S. one day. It just may not occur where it historically has in the past.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:29 pm)of my opinion that GM should avoid building full size trucks and SUVs with the Voltec drivetrain–at least until GM has a more green image.
I personally think it would be a good idea to have full-size electric SUVs and all, but environmentalists will only use them as ammunition to say that GM is evil and their vehicles waste tons of gasolineelectricity.
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It depends on whether GM’s goal is to make money by selling more of their historically profitable large vehicles, or to get the environmental left to say nice things about them.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:29 pm)#99 Tom H
I seem to be in disagreement with you on this one. There is a real need in the U.S. and Canada for 5 passenger vehicles and for a small to mid-sized SUV type vehicle. Americans and Canadians are just not satisfied with small sedans that have limited passenger capabilities. Sure, we will “put up with” the Volt because of its game changing technology, but if GM doesn’t satisfy the 5 passenger and small to mid-sized SUV market, then someone else will. IMO.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:35 pm)#101 Tom H
I agree. I think GM cares less about what the environmentalist say about them than what their bottom line says about them. If GM forgets that lesson, they will not last long even in today’s new market place. you gotta make some dough to survive. Government hand-outs go only so far before their demands are more than you can stand. At that point you don’t exist anymore and are just another division of the Commerce Department or something or the other. God help us then for sure.
GM needs to be moving forward on all fronts giving the restraints they have on their financial life-blood. It is a pretty daunting task. One that even money flush Toyota would find difficult without massive help from the consumers and/or government or both.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:38 pm)#96 Tom H:
The legacy labor costs of Detroit are not the result of the scaaaary union bogeyman. Japanese auto workers are also unionized. So are Eurpoean auto workers. The legacy costs of Detroit are so high for a rather innocent historical reason:
Detroit used to have a huge portion of the market share, but now has much less. This drastically reduced workforce is now supporting a much larger number of retirees. Kinda like a pyramid scheme (or social security) in that it is very hard to sustain without changes to the funding mechanism. If Deroit had maintained its market share, this legacy problem would be far smaller than it is today. Also, the fact that GM/Ford/Chrysler have been around as large companies much longer than their competitors makes this problem even worse for them.
None of the talking points of the right or left are exactly right with regard to this issue. Anyone on-board for limiting pay of union workers AND executives? I am. Let’s call it a compromise and do it. Just like Wagoner, I am also capable of destroying a multi-billion dollar car company through mismanagement, and I would do it for a lot less money.
If unions do “cause” the ruin of the auto industry then I say it was a fair price to pay for the creation of the American middle class. But personally I hope all parties survive.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:39 pm)SteveK (#95)
Spoken like a true comrade! Like all Statists you are spouting half-truths which are the blackest of lies because they can be partially defended.
The “dumping” scenario you mentioned is the venue of civil law. In other words… you are FREE (innocent) to do what ever you want until you interfere with the freedom of others who can then sue you for damages (loser pays). To secure liberty/FREEDOM, the plaintiff has the burden of proof and the defendant has a jury of their peer group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_group
The outcome will result in “case law” which will support future actions and dissuade similar improper harmful activity (on either side) all while securing liberty.
Writing statutes and placing regulation upon regulation on the books is unenforceable, impractical and Tyranny when it is assumed that nobody can be ignorant of the law. Of course, that’s impossible when there are THOUSANDS of new laws written every year most of which are not enforced. A law that is selectively enforced does great harm to society because favoritism is suspected and a mentality of “It’s not illegal if I get away with it” becomes normal.
Where does Statism it end? How many children you can have? Can you eat that hamburger or not? Can you spit on the sidewalk? What if your shirt offends somebody and they think that “there should be a law”. Can you defend yourself? How much C02 can you exhale? Can you smoke? Take that medication or vitamins? What color can you paint your house? Can you educate your own children, grow your own food, own you own property without worrying if the State will take it for “better tax use”, ON and ON it goes infinitum…
NO! You, sir have it backwards!!!
Read the 10th Amendment and don’t tread on me!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:43 pm)‘Free-market’ capitalism is ALL ABOUT externalizing costs (e.g. dumping waste in a public stream, etc.), because the only concern is the company’s shareholders, not the ‘commonwealth’—this is not a value judgment that is simply the system.
The only recourse the public has to control this built-in tendency is government—for which the primary function is to protect the common good (not very successfully at the moment).
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The writer makes an excellent point, but some readers could be mislead by his use of the term “free market”. He is referring to absolute laisse faire capitalism, which has not existed in the US since shortly after the death of Lincoln. The modern consensus, which includes thinkers as diverse as Roosevelt, Roosevelt, Friedman and Reagan is the certain restraints on enterprise are absolutely needed. These include:
Anti-pollution laws
Anti-trust laws
Child labor laws
A modern banking system and fiat currency
The only debates between modern Republicans and Democrats are about marginal increases or decreases to the stringency of these rules.
The system strives to force businesses to internalize their costs, but business is always a decade or two ahead.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:44 pm)Dear Bob Lutz,
Thank you for the Volt – hope GM gives you a gold one for a retirement gift.
Hope you enjoy retirement – maybe you can do a start-up (X)EV company for fun.
I’m Nutz for Lutz.
Oh, and don’t go to Canada and eliminate any static, Bob. It’s only ‘cuz some folks are greenie meanies and can’t get a grip on themselves. Global warming is a crock-a-poo too.
Love and kisses,
Your friend,
Shawn
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Feb 9th, 2009 (2:57 pm)Tom H (#106)
Yes, for all intensive purposes, we now have a one party totalitarian statist system. The only REAL difference between the Democratic-Socialists and NeoCon-Fascists is where they want to spend their ill gotten gains.
Each year, more and more regulations & taxes are placed on the population which both retards productivity (risk/reward) and hobbles liberty. And when we wonder how we got here we need only look in the mirror and say… “there should be a law…”
This is not only a US problem. It is a Global one. People are afraid to pay for their own mistakes so they force their faceless, nameless “taxpayer” neighbors to pay the tab for them. “What will you do when they come for YOU?”
By the way, all the “restraints on enterprise are absolutely needed” you mentioned are unconstitutional under the 10th Amendment. If one can use the “Commerce Clause” to justify these actions, they can interpret that same clause to ignore the entire Bill of Rights which they are doing under the unPatriot Act. Judges are to apply law, not interpret or produce it.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON! (now I’m showing my age)
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:02 pm)#107 Shawn Marshall
Was that “tongue in cheek” or just cheek? Cute, though I agree with its sentiments for Bob Lutz. He will be a historical figure even considering how he is disliked by some. Sort of like someone else who has just left the scene. Good wishes to them one and all.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:09 pm)Sorry to tell you people quoting sections of the Constitution, but it is only used now to “support” certain causes that would not be popular if voted on by the citizens nationally. The Constitution has been so twisted by different parties as to be unrecognizable by the average citizen. Speaking of the average citizen, he/she may not even know we even have a Constitution and if so, could not read and understand it anyway. Our only salvation is to be hit by a very large asteroid and maybe a few will be left to start rebuilding the human race. Am I joking? I don’t know. Guess.
Edited: Sure, I am joking………
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:12 pm)OK, this one is deteriorating. Let’s move on. Need another subject, Lyle.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:17 pm)#104 Jim in PA wrote:
#96 Tom H:
The legacy labor costs of Detroit are not the result of the scaaaary union bogeyman. Japanese auto workers are also unionized. So are Eurpoean auto workers. The legacy costs of Detroit are so high for a rather innocent historical reason:
Detroit used to have a huge portion of the market share, but now has much less.
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Jim thanks for your well written response to my post, but I am still going with the “scary union bogeyman”. Pension costs are funded by the employer as pension credit is earned by the worker, so they are not part of current legacy costs. The legacy costs are so high because of gold plated benefits available to the UAW, but very few other American workers (especially since the USW drove the steel industry overseas). It would be perfectly reasonable for retired UAW senior citizens to use Medicare like everybody else, rather than draining the blood out of the automakers, and for healthy 55 year olds to work for their benefits, just like other Americans.
The other part of the equation is wage rates. You could cut UAW wages to the level of the non-union US autoworkers, and they would still be the highest paid autoworkers in the world. Would that be so unfair?
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:41 pm)#116 Tom H
Good points. I agree with the wage cuts. They are supposed to see some of those next year, but it won’t be enough to stave off more trouble. GM needs to completely revamp their wage and benefit package, but the union will never let them. The Union has GM, Ford and Chrysler over a barrel and they are not going to let go the pressure. They will threaten a strike and the auto companies are really afraid of a strike right now or later as they are starting to “recover” from the auto sales decline. A major strike would kill off one or more of the big three. Probably GM and Chrysler. I don’t think the union bosses would really care. They would just go to some other industry and unionize it and do the same to it over a few decades. Leaches never let go once they attach themselves. Government is the same type of leach. You have to pull them off by force or light a fire to them. Government is digging itself so deep into our business fabric that it will never be the same again. I for one would like to do some extraction.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:49 pm)_____________________________________________________
Wow…that’s some news that Bob Lutz is retiring!
I have tremendous respect for Mr. Lutz.
There would be no VOLTEC Program if not for Lutz.
Thank you Mr. Lutz.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:50 pm)Bankruptcy reorganization would have solved all these “wage” and “legacy” issues. After all, that’s exactly what it’s designed for BUT that wouldn’t be nearly as much fun as taking $Billions from the taxpaying sheeple, would it?
Anyway, what’s done is done. I’m waiting for round II. round III, round IV and so on….
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Feb 9th, 2009 (4:08 pm)#81, Rashiid Amul, [describes past GM vehicle problems and affirms desire for a Volt, anyway.]
You’re more forgiving than some will be. Of course, that’s one way for GM to return to profitability; to make a compelling product, like the Volt, that not only keeps the faithful coming back to the GM dealership but also provides a healthy dose of conquest sales.
Of course, at 10K units in 2011 and $40K, the Volt… it is unique but the quantity and price erase the other advantages. It would be a whole ‘nother story if it was due in 2010 in 80-100K volume and at a more affordable price.
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#64, Gary, “You say that Toyota and Honda don’t hide their problems? Have you ever Googled the Toyota Engine Sludge problem? I’ve also just received a letter in the mail in regards to a class action lawsuit against Acura in regards to odometers spinning too fast–which leads to warranties expiring faster and extra over mileage lease charges.”
I have certainly heard of the Toyota Engine Sludge problem. Who hasn’t? What I don’t know is anyone who actually HAS a sludged Toyota engine. I own one of those motors, myself.
Sludge has two possible sources: some sort of really bad engine design problem and poor maintenance habits.
Now, the SludgeMaster is probably MORE likely than some motors to develop problems due to poor maintenance and too-long oil change intervals but that doesn’t mean it’s Toyota’s problem.
Toyota sent me a letter about it (probably in 2003); if I run into trouble and can provide reasonable evidence of reasonable care, they’ll take care of the motor if it fails due to sludging. In 2001, after the V6 had been in production for 3 years and problem reports started to show up, Toyota redesigned critical parts to make sure future 3-liter V6 motors would be less likely to develop problems on poor maintenance. They probably applied the lessons learned to other motors, too.
Did DexCool owners get similar care?
And lawyers will take any case they can find, on contingency, if they have nothing better to do. A class action lawsuit means little and many are “settled” with a cash payment to the law firm(s) involved (a “go away and stop bothering us” fee) and coupons for something of negligible value to the actual wronged customers. We’ve gotten coupons like that… it’s law firms scamming the public, really.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (5:34 pm)Young Blood @ 74 Says:
Bob Lutz will be replaced by Thomas Stephens.
Lutz is like 60 years old or something (almost petrified).
America is not a country for OLD MEN. If your old then move to Japan, they will respect you over there. In America you are just in the way.
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Ha! You don’t have a clue. Lutz is much older than 60, he is 77. In fact, his replacement is 60. I’d say it’s clueless people like you that are in the way. Now, if only we could find a way to ship you off to Japan, then we’d be fine.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (5:42 pm)soooo excited!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:37 pm)Well, I’m thinking about a full size SUV such as a Tahoe with this Voltec technology.
Micky Bly mentioned in one of his interviews regarding the Tahoe Hybrid that it only needs 30 hp to cruise down the highway. That is 22.4 kW, which is about twice that of the Volt.
Now if a Voltec Tahoe could be built, probably with a drive system at the front wheels and another at the rear wheels, and still use the Volt’s T-shaped battery pack, this could be an attractive package.
You could go with a smaller engine, no transmission, no transfer case, and probably lighten the frame (this Tahoe would have limited towing). You would have 8 passenger capability, 4WD, increased road clearance, and room for all your goodies from Home Depot.
Now let’s assume that this vehicle uses twice as much energy as the Volt. So now we have an AER of 20 miles, and get 25 mpg once the ICE comes on. So if the average owner gets half his miles from electricity, then this vehicle gets a nominal 50 mpg!
For 15,000 miles per year, this equates to 3000 kWh of electricity and 300 gallons of gas. At $.15 per kWh, and $4 per gallon gasoline, annual energy costs are $1650. Compare this to a Prissy at 50 mpg and $4 per gallon, and its energy costs are $1200 per year.
My point, if GM has the technology to provide an equivalent 100+ mpg in the Volt, then 50 mpg in a full size SUV is doable. In this scenario, I don’t see the vehicle demographics changing much, and trucks and SUV’s could continue to dominate the highways of America.
Ain’t technology great!
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:21 pm)Good looking car.
Ridiculous timing (leadership?)
Is a $50,000 + EREV Cadillac what GM needs to be planning right now? With not even one $40,000 Volt on the road . . . not for another 2 years?
GM continues to exhibit the mindset (regardless of what they say) that hybrids/electric cars are just novelties for brand badging. Not something that should be sold en masse.
Robert Lutz from January, 2004:
“And Lutz did concede that Toyota has won the public relations battle with the Prius, even if it followed a business strategy he does not endorse.
“For Toyota, it was a huge, huge, immeasurably valuable PR coup,” said Lutz. GM’s decision not to pursue a hybrid car “was a mistake from one aspect, and that’s public relations and catering to the environmental movement.” ”
http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/detroit_gm_hybrids/index.htm
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:28 pm)Plus, the competition is already heated in the green sports sedan category.
2009 BMW 335D
http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/2009-bmw-335d/12449945
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Feb 10th, 2009 (2:06 pm)@ Rashiid Amul #87
Dude. Do not believe the badly produced disinfo from the dropout school of trollology that created “Young Blood.” These type comments and their old school writers are the product of a small, out of touch group of cave dwellers living in darkness and hoping their pithy little remarks will discourage real people. They don’t. Young Blood and the anti-American trolls are actually CCP agents employed like Tokyo Rose was in the dark ages to try to “psyche” you out.
What’s truly laughable is they pour tons o’ dough into their fruitless little ventures and get ZERO results! Hee Hee! Talk about bad investments! These clowns throw money around, get nothing in return, and dig down for more money to throw out! If you’re looking for a low paying, unrewarding job… apply to become a CCP agent. Sure its cowardly, and waaay out of date – but you might like the donuts and sitting in the dark all day!
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Feb 10th, 2009 (4:38 pm)I have had ENOUGH of such DRIVEL.
“‘Free-market’ capitalism is ALL ABOUT externalizing costs (e.g. dumping waste in a public stream, etc.), because the only concern is the company’s shareholders, not the ‘commonwealth’—this is not a value judgment that is simply the system.
The only recourse the public has to control this built-in tendency is government—for which the primary function is to protect the common good (not very successfully at the moment).”
Bovine Scatology!!!!
Why is it that Socialist Nim-nuts can say things that are patent falsehoods, and get away with it? They always complain about free enterprise/capitialist systems and “externalizing” pollution.
Name the worst pollution cesspools in the World.
Russia, China, East Europe like Poland, Hungary Czech Rrepubic etc. All members of the former Socialist, Marxist, A$$wipe bloc, that he so fervently worships.
Nary a single western democracy. Could it be that when no one owns anything, then no one cares about any thing? Pollution seems endemic to marxist tyranies? Why?
Free enterprise and it’s decentralized husbandry of land and resources created the great cleanup. It has been going on for 200 hundred years and only accellerated after 1970. Where? In the western Democracies, where there is accountability.
The air, water and land is much, much, much, much,…. yada, yada, yada cleaner than in any of those Marxist hell holes.
And then Mr. Nimrod spouts his obviously, stupid and erroneous, idiocies, and yet no on calls him on it.
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May 21st, 2009 (7:18 am)