The US Department of Energy has a loan program called the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program (ATVMIP). Colloquially known as re-tooling loans, the legislation is section 136 of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007.
These loans are intended for companies to use to create the facilities necessary to build high-efficiency advanced technology vehicles.
The total sum of available money is $25 billion dollars, and 75 applications were received. Only 26 of these were considered “substantially complete.” Funds are expected to be disbursed within the next one to two months.
General Motors has an application for $8.3 billion which they plan to use to build plug-in cars including the Chevy Volt. Ford has asked for $5 billion to make 90% of its cars more efficient by 2014.
Start-up Tesla Motors has also asked for $450 million for use in building electric sedans and battery packs for selling to other car makers, and A123 systems has requested $1.84 billion to help build a US lithium-ion battery manufacturing plant.
Somewhat surprising however is that Japanese company Nissan has actually requested loans as well, but has not released details of how much or what for.
This move separates Nissan from the Japanese companies Toyota and Honda who have not requested loans. Toyota’s US VP Irv Miler said “we’re not interested in being beholden to the government” and Honda’s VP of US affairs said “if it’s worth doing, we’ll do it on our own.” Technically, there was no wording in the loan application to prevent foreign automakers from requesting them, something critics point out as a weakness of the loan’s language.
What do you think?
Source (Bloomberg)
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:06 am)Now this is an interesting twist…. My first reaction was to laugh, but, as I’m sure they are incorporated in the U.S. they have every right to apply. I don’t see Nissan getting any money, though. My understanding is that all their parts are manufactured in Japan and the U.S. plants just assemble. Correct me if I’m worng….
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:07 am)second
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:20 am)I’m still thinking about the 136 million Volts running about with US lithium supplied batteries, hehehe. (See my 80 last post.)
Given Nissan nearly went bust a few years ago, it would make sense to move everything to the US.
/Hoping this is a joke.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:42 am)Since the company does supply many Americans with jobs (and cars) and has shown an environmental commitment (check out their new headquarters in Nashville) including building zero emission vehicles, I hope they get the loans. It should be a good investment for American taxpayers as the company’s survival is, unlike some others I could name, not in jeopardy. We could actually make a bit of money on this deal.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:45 am)I say “no go”. There is no reason to loan our tax money to a foreign country to assist them in competition with our own companies.
The whole idea behind the loan is to keep our companies here at home competitive and technologically advanced.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:48 am)Nissan asking for a loan seems at first to be strange. In thinking about it, though, I realize that if GM can ask for loans from Canada or Germany and use loan money to import engines from Austria and build cars in Mexico, it is only logical for Nissan to ask for funds from the USA? Nissan hires people in the US, pays taxes in the US, and no doubt is separately incorporated in the US, so why not?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:50 am)It doesn’t hurt to ask but it is not something I would support.
Besides, doesn’t Japan’s government support their automakers?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:03 am)If Nissan has a viable plan to further the advancement of electrifying the automotive scene, then why not help them out? Why is it that there seems to be such a selfish attitude that any advancements have to be dominated by American enterprises? I tell you that if we start looking upon the other countries and peoples in the world as team players in this challenge to electrify our transportation, we will collectively achieve the goal far sooner.
It irks me to read through these threads almost daily, and still get the overall sense of the childish, me-first attitude of some here that only U.S. based firms matter; it brings to mind my two small children squabbling over who gets to control the TV set. Has the current financial crisis, which has greed as it’s genesis, not told you anything about such an outlook?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:13 am)“Who will guard the guards?”
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:27 am)Canuk #8 says,
If Nissan has a viable plan to further the advancement of electrifying the automotive scene, then why not help them out? Why is it that there seems to be such a selfish attitude that any advancements have to be dominated by American enterprises?
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Interesting questions. The answer for myself is this: It is my money.
I am tired of seeing it go to Foreign governments, foreign companies, and foreign people. If I had to choose to help Nissan, GM, or Ford, I would choose the latter two.
I in no way am a Protectionist. But my tax money seems to go everywhere but to the causes that I support. For once, I would like to see it go toward American Hybrids. Let the Japanese support their own automakers. I don’t see the foreign governments giving billions of dollars to GM or Ford. Do you?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:36 am)NZDavid, how about, “Nevada, the Saudi Arabia of Lithium!”
Noah’s link is full of very useful information regarding lithium use, reserves and production, so I think I will link to it again.
http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/
Now on topic, not giving Nissan loans is in no way protectionist, it is merely reflecting Japanese business and economic policies back on them. They subsidize the development of new cars and batteries, and the US should be free to do so as well. The current Airbus vs. Boeing spat is a fair indicator that this type of subsidy is perfectly acceptable, because Boeing is getting nowhere in its claims that European subsidies of Airbus are unfair.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:40 am)This is not a zero-sum game. The money has to come somewhere. The government only prints the money. Give the money to US auto makers GM, FORD, and (even) Chrysler (owner Cerberus). There has to be limits or the US will be distributing $100 trillion for anyone who simply asks for the money.
We are already sending $millions every day to Saudia Arabia for crude and refined oil products. What do they do — they restrict the supply to drive up the oil price to benefit them. Lets support the US companies. The foreign auto companies will reverse engineer the US Auto EV technology and will catch up later. I say US companies only. This is my money (taxes) you are talking about.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:46 am)Canuck @#8 – I agree with (much of what) Rashiid (said) at #10 (but Canada has at least proposed giving loans to GM). So I won’t say 1/2 of what I was going to say. So that aside, the latest figures I found for Canada was a trade surplus of bit over $1 billion for the month of November 2008. In contrast, the US had a trade deficit for the same month of over $40 billion (US). Granted we are a larger country than Canada. But consider that Canada has been running a trade surplus for over 10 years, and the US has been running a trade deficit for nearly 30 years. Consider also that the bulk of the US deficit in consumer goods has been generated by trade with countries like Japan and China, whose policies intentionally de-value their own currency, and suppress their domestic markets.
Where you stand often depends on where you sit, and I don’t know that you would have the same view of the world if Canada no longer had natural gas and other commodities to export. If Japan, China and other trading partners let their currencies float and open up their domestic markets, then I have no beef. Some, like Canada, clearly do. Others don’t. It is economic suicide for the U.S. to continue to ignore these realities.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:53 am)I loaning Nissan money means more EREVs on the road, then I’m all for it.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:59 am)I just can’t decided which argument to go with:
A) There is no ‘foreign ownership exclusion’ clause, so why not them?
…besides if there was, could Chrysler now qualify to get any?
or
B) The traditional/classic GM ‘bailout’ argument:
—”it is a loan, so it is not your taxpayer dollars…they are going to pay it back,” hehe
I had 3, but I had to edited it out because RB beat me to it, you smug son of a….nevermind.
Side note: All good points for you too on the last thread, NZDavid. You don’t get much action on old posts once a new thread starts, do you? I generally like to use that opportunity to pepper in petty insults to the people that have disagreed with me…or reveal one of my superpowers ie) ability to calm jittery squirrels
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:00 am)#13 MarkinWI Says: “Consider also that the bulk of the US deficit in consumer goods has been generated by trade with countries like Japan and China, whose policies intentionally de-value their own currency, and suppress their domestic markets.”
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Japan is nothing like China. Japan doesn’t intentionally de-value their own currency. Japan is a democracy.
China is communist. They mainpulate their currency to keep the U.S. hooked on Chinese imports.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:02 am)REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH…FROM YOU TO WHOMEVER THEY FEEL LIKE SHOULD TAKE OUR BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS!! WHERE DOES IT END!
I guess now AMERICANS are expected to bailout other countries as well.
This is NOT the America I was brought up in! Make it stop. Say it isn’t so…
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:04 am)Nissan is planning on building pure EVs for now, not erevs.
I don’t understand this some attitudes here. Supposedly we are free marketers, so why are we afraid of competition from others? Competition is what should make American companies strong. When they are protected from outside market pressures, innovation ceases and we end up getting a lousy product.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:17 am)It seems that the point I tried to make in my first post was proven correct by the posters so far. With this “American only” outlook, you are limiting the rate at which the development of electric cars can advance. (I thought that the point of Lyle’s site here was to promote that development).
As far as sending your tax dollars to “foreigners”, the U.S. has enjoyed the last several decades of living very high on the hog largely because of exploitive measure taken by your country towards smaller, weaker countries that possessed the resources required by you to enjoy that standard of living (and are still doing by the way). This being said, I think it is high time to give a little back, to whoever it is that can help us all make the future world be more equitable for everyone. And for us here at GM.volt, that future is about electric cars period.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:33 am)There is also the benefits to America to be seen by allowing faster development of electric drive. Namely, the entire alterative energy infrastructure, recharging station infrastructure, and battery and vehicle development jobs, that will occur sooner than later.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:41 am)#19
The development of electric cars for me is the independance from crazy foreign oil exporters and so many who have and will die to protect the resource. If the whole world can go electric and OPEC must eat sand and drink oil from starving then great!
Giving back is a choice. Each Individual’s choice. Not someone else deciding how much they will take to give to another b/c they think it is right. Just b/c America used to have policies does not mean this generation OR THE NEXT should pay for it. I do not support the GM bailout ( i think once GM knew they would fail no one would have suggested they sell their corporate jets. They would have “changed” themselves and sold their jets and in the long run been a far leaner machine) I do not support a NON-American manufacture bailout with my tax dollars or my grandchildren’s. The money will be pissed away on corporate stuff. The money will largely not help us grow the electric cars but grow yachts and summer homes.
NPNS
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Feb 8th, 2009 (12:04 pm)Canuck @19. Re your belief that the “America First” crowd is retarding the development of electric cars, I really don’t think so. The Japanese are supporting thier auto industry, and if they want to invest in electric cars, they will. BYD is partially owned by the Chinese government, and is pursuing electric cars aggressively. BYD will not be applying for a US loan.
On the other hand, I can make a pretty good argument that a weak US market is doing far more to retard the development of electric cars than denying Nissan a US tax-payer subsidized loan. You might have noticed that oil prices tanked as the US economic collapse became evident. Many other commodities tanked as well. Weak US demand for goods leads to weak world demand for commodities, both from teh US and from countries that live off of exporting to the US. With gas at US $4.00 per gallon the Volt was sure to be a hit. With gas at US $2.00 per gallon it may end up being a niche product. Other electric and electric hybrid vehicles will suffer from the same problem.
As for the US living off of the exploitation of smaller and weaker nations, don’t confuse the people of the US with the corporations that used to have headquarters in the US. The only thing the people got out of invading Iraq was $4.00 per gallon gas and $1 trillon in I.O.U.s to the Chinese government, aka the T-Bills that we use to finance government deficit spending.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (12:38 pm)#18 drivin98 said:
“I don’t understand this some attitudes here. Supposedly we are free marketers, so why are we afraid of competition from others?”
Because we are losing. Badly. It sucks to have your country be the losing team. We want to do what ever it takes for our country to actually BE competitive again, to actually have a shot at being #1 again.
Some of us are Americans at the core. To have our government give loans to foreign companies to better aid them in knocking out and closing down American companies sickens us at the core! To those like Statik and Canuk (who I assume is Canadian) I understand them not really caring one way or another, they and many others on this blog from other countries don’t have a dog in this fight. They can sit at the side lines and watch America implode and not really care what comes next, but there are those of us who almost can’t recognize the country we grew up in anymore and are nauseated by the defeatism that is becoming dominant here.
Some of us here in America are resigned to be a third rate country in the EU or under UN control. Others will do all we can to try to restore the America we grew up with and have it become the America we know it can be, a world leader.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (12:46 pm)World socialism here we are. I have had enough handouts, especially when my town is dead (Dayton, Ohio). The technology will come with consumer demand, just like gassers came. Enough of this nonsense–apparently I will simply have to continue voting my representatives out of office until they stop growing government waste and abuse.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (12:54 pm)DaV8or Says
Others will do all we can to try to restore the America we grew up with and have it become the America we know it can be, a world leader.
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AMEN, BROTHER…
The Japs are not fighting fair. I work for a company that sells Japanese products and if we are selling against other Japanese equipment suppliers our Japanese supplier will not give us a discount multipliers to win the order. However, if we are competing against American products, our Japanese supplier will give us deep discounts to ensure the order and stop the American product from entering the market. This is a true story and I am sure it does not stop with pumps!
GM-Volt, NPNS
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Feb 8th, 2009 (12:55 pm)Canuck @ 19,
I think we’re talking about a few different things. It sounds like one is the fundamental belief about what wealth should be distributed where, which you will find very controversial. We are all for the development of electric vehicles. But asking for the US government (taxpayers) to pay for it is a bit greedy when we now have upwards of 10 trillion to pay off (by living high on the hog as you pointed out). I’d be the first to admit Americans live beyond their means and rack up too much debt, like our government. But just as I disagree with you about wealth trasnfer from rich to poor nations, I do want everyone to succeed. The question is who should pay for it and how. It’s just difference in the point of view. Canada provides health care to its people, whereas the US does not…now is that fair?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Cut, downsize, restructure, streamline, rethink … ect.
Whatever you wish to call it, just no more TARP for anyone. Let the chips fall as they may. The leanest and smartest will prevail. This is the way America has always pushed forward. Let’s not stop now.
=D~
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:13 pm)My first reaction is this must be a joke…
However if it makes a profit for the US to help pay down debt and the US owns this part of Nissan….lets talk.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:16 pm)MarkinWI @ 22
As for the US living off of the exploitation of smaller and weaker nations, don’t confuse the people of the US with the corporations that used to have headquarters in the US. The only thing the people got out of invading Iraq was $4.00 per gallon gas and $1 trillon in I.O.U.s to the Chinese government, aka the T-Bills that we use to finance government deficit spending.
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Yes, that is the sad reality for all of us in the world, as the corporate greed had finally culminated in the result you stated, however the expolitation I was referring to was/is far, far more extensive and protracted than just the gulf wars; it is widespread throughout much of the world. Too much of a story to adequately cover here, but if you’re interested, I’ll refer you to two books by one of your own countrymen — John Perkins. 1) “Confessions of an Economic Hitman”, and 2) “The Secret History of the American Empire”. Believe me, these books are a real wakeup call to most here in North America.
He has a website also: http://www.johnperkins.org/
As a result of these books, I have had a reality check in the way the U.S works in the world. So, when I said in an earlier post that the U.S. needs to give back a little for everyones benefit, I think it is the least it could do. By acting less like a world thug, and more like a world citizen, I think you would be suprised at how much prosperity would be generated in your country as a result. Besides, as far as the loan to Nissan is concerned, would’nt the American tax payer profit from the interest generated when its repayed?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:21 pm)What is the big deal? When last I checked WWII ended a few years ago. All these loans have requirements. If Nissan can meet the requirements then there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to get a loan.
Asia, Europe, and the US have a shared interest in electrifying transportation. In a world where capital and operations are international — US citizens hold Nisan stock, Japanese nationals hold GM stock, GM has plants in China, Toyota has plants in the US — parochial protectionism appears to lack relevance.
#15 statik: Can you really do that with squirrels?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:28 pm)If you care about alternative energy cars, if you ever hoped to drive one. If you ever wanted to be supportive and help make cars happen then now is the time to act on a VERY SPECIFIC ISSUE:
There is no more investment money for alternative energy cars. The Venture Capital market is dead and may never come back. IF, it comes back, Tesla’s problems have put such a bad taste in the VC’s mouth that they will never invest in cars again and those few that did invest in a few car companies have proven that they have no comprehension of how a car company works.
Detroit and the oil industry has managed to block alternative energy cars for decades.
BUT, now, a single door, a last chance has opened. Money was approved and banked, on a emergency fast track basis called the Section 136 DOE ATVM but it was supposed to be released last year and it has been either stalled intentionally by Detroit and Big Oil or mismanaged by those with no idea what they are doing or mis-used by those exploiting the interest revenue on the $25B sitting in Treasury.
Most of the alternative car companies have applied for this money, they are dying in this economy and they all planned for receipt of funds long before this.
What can you do? Tell those in charge to get this money released today.
Today: Call the White House at 202-456-1414
Today: Call Steven Chu, the new head of the DOE at 1-202-586-5000
Today: Call CNN and demand an expose at 800-CNN-NEWS
Please re-post this and forward it to your friends.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:35 pm)I say loan them the money. NPNS!
We can always follow the lead set forth by Chase financial. Send Nissan a note saying that the interest rate will be raised because we don’t consider their account “profitable” enough.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (1:56 pm)DonC #30 says,
What is the big deal? When last I checked WWII ended a few years ago. All these loans have requirements. If Nissan can meet the requirements then there is no reason they shouldn’t be able to get a loan.
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Don, there is only a limited amount of money put aside for these loans.
The more we loan to foreign companies, the less we can loan to American companies. I have nothing against Nissan. We owned one when we traveled the country. It was a great car. But the money should stay here and I would love to see it put into a Manhattan Project for battery research.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:01 pm)#30 DonC said:
#15 statik: Can you really do that with squirrels?
======================
Indeed I can.
You should also know that I possess the ability to score with the wives of other posters that don’t agree with whatever I say.
/on notice
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:03 pm)#18 drivin98 said:
I don’t understand this some attitudes here. Supposedly we are free marketers, so why are we afraid of competition from others?
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I see this as giving my money to a car company who would be happy to see Detroit shut down. I don’t think this is good for the USA.
Japan can give Nissan the money. There is your competition. If we give them the money, aren’t we competing against ourselves?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:06 pm)I think I’d buy Toyota or Honda.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Yeah, I’ll tell you what I think.
75 applications received, 26 considered.
I going to assume automatically that ALL of the 26 to be considered are American companies.
The fact that foreign competition would even consider applying for American funds shows just how upside down our world is now.
And if Nissan’s application is one of the 26 to be considered, then not only is the world upside down right now, but its twisted as well.
Its bad enough that GM is using 1 Billion of the taxpayers money to move manufacturing & thus jobs to Brazil but to have The US Department of Energy distribute funds from the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program to foreign competition seems almost like a combined effort on the part of Government & Industry to destroy American manufacturing capacity.
Its insane.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:34 pm)#36 Bill:
“I think I’d buy Toyota or Honda.”
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What in the world is your point? Did you see what the topic was?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (2:48 pm)#24 Dave B:
“World socialism here we are. I have had enough handouts, especially when my town is dead (Dayton, Ohio). The technology will come with consumer demand, just like gassers came. Enough of this nonsense–apparently I will simply have to continue voting my representatives out of office until they stop growing government waste and abuse.”
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You’re right. The technology will come on it’s own and when it does, it most likely won’t be American technology… and your town of Dayton Ohio will still be dead. When you give money to a company it may be socialism, when you loan money (with interest) to a company it’s an investment. If the American people aren’t willing to invest in an American future, than who will?
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Feb 8th, 2009 (3:00 pm)A few thoughts here:
-”The US Department of Energy has a loan program called the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Incentive Program (ATVMIP) . . . the legislation is section 136 of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007″
If the load program was under an act with a different title, I might give more thought to the concept of loaning to foreign owned companies. As DonC mentioned WWII ended a long time ago but considering the circumstances that led to WWII, I’ld have to say that shoring up our own manufacturing sector at the present time qualifies better under “energy independence and security”. And it does so on many levels other than just manufacturering capacity for wartime purposes.
-I have a friend that runs the US operations of a foreign owned company and another freind whose small business was destroyed by a much larger Japanese firm’s deep pocketed predatory business practice (they bought up all of the supply of a limited resource at above market prices). Companies (and governments too) don’t always fight “fair” and “fair” means different things in different places. Companies located here are more bound to play by the rules here. US subsidiaries or other operations for foreign owned companies also handle profits and can handle debts differently. They can “massage” their cash flow to take advantage of currencies and taxes.
I can imagine that a program could be put forth that is tailored to offer stimuli for foreign companies to invest in US operations, but not under this loan program.
In general you take care of yourself and your immediate family first, your friends and other family second, your local community third, your country fourth, and the world last. As long as you do this ethically, morally, and honestly then I don’t believe anyone has the right to criticize your actions.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (3:02 pm)As long as the money is spent in the US for R&D, testing or factory construction / upgrades – I’ve got no problem whatsoever.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (3:36 pm)too…much…government. I am getting more and more averse to the idea of government involving itself in private enterprise except in a regulatory capacity.
Of course…like most people when gov’t funds something I agree with (like the Volt) I suddenly am not so averse. Goshdurn hypocrisy. So annoying that I get caught up in it as well. This is how our pork-barrel congress keeps itself alive. Sigh.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (3:38 pm)Statik – you should quit drinking. Nobody ever agrees with you or anybody else cuz they’re all bloggers. If you threaten to score with the wives of dissidents, you might get a lot more than you bargain for. I know of one case in particular that would make your knees rattle.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (4:33 pm)The answer should be a resounding NO. While they have some plants in the US, they are Not a US company in any sense of the word. All profits go to the company, which is in Japan. When Japan gave loans and grants to their auto companies, did any US companies get money from them just because we sell cars in their company? Of course not. Lets not confuse a thousand or so US jobs with a US company. They are not a US company and must not receive US loans of this type.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (4:50 pm)Losers such as GM, Nissan, Chrysler, Mitsubishi deserve to die without any tax payer’s money. I know I would never buy anything from GM, Chrysler, maybe soon GM, Nissan. Ford is the only American company deserve to prosper. To be frank, it is entertaining to see GM, Chrysler begging for $$$ and get insulted, it is also entertaining to see them getting what they deserve (chapter 7).
May god bless Ford so they do not need public $$$ and eventually succeed. If anyone wants to buy domestic, it has to be Ford.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (5:15 pm)Nissan shoul be considered for a loan if they’re a member of the US security exchange and the profits are going to Americans, paying US taxes, making most of the parts and assembling the cars in the US and they deliver a survival plan to the government.
Tessla and A123 should not get a loan until they can show a proven track record of some sort and Ford’s plan as presented here is just too hazy and takes too long.
We must remember that GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been cornerstones of US industry for over 80 or 90 years and have contributed greatly to the good American living standards. Tesla, A123 and Nissan have contributed very little if anything to my knowledge.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (5:27 pm)loser_to_die #45
Your post seems based more on emotion than any kind logic and would appear to be based on getting revenge. There’s no reason in cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. We want to get out of this recession, not make it worse.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (5:27 pm)Ed,
Tesla has actually built and SOLD lithium powered electric vehicles whereas no other manufacturer (of size) has. They are fully positioned to expand and provide good new jobs for people in Northern Cali. A123, an MIT spinoff based in Massachusetts is also well positioned to expand in the Northeast, offering good quality new jobs in the engineering and manufacturing sectors – provided they bring the battery assemblage back home from China. Given plans to hire North Americans, both of these companies are deserving of serious consideration for the loans.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (5:32 pm)statik #34
Don’t let your fantasies warp your thinking. Or is it too late ?
At anyrate, I’m keeping my Shipoopi.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (6:01 pm)Pragmatic, Tesla imports all the cars they sell. Nissan, at least, assembles in America and has some local parts suppliers.
DaV8or says To those like Statik and Canuk (who I assume is Canadian) I understand them not really caring one way or another, they and many others on this blog from other countries don’t have a dog in this fight. They can sit at the side lines and watch America implode and not really care what comes next,
I care greatly DaV8or. There is a saying here that goes “When America catches a cold, we catch Pneumonia”. When I see a budget deficit of 1 Trillion and tax receipts for just a little more, trust me, I do worry.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (6:12 pm)Statik, I totally disagree with your @34, you necrophiliac.
/Tag, I think I might still have grief issues! BTW, your wisdom from January is still with me, I reflect often upon your words.
//And what is happening to the squirrels that they need calming anyway?
OK off to work, see you all tonight.
LJGTVWOTR
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Feb 8th, 2009 (7:50 pm)Statik, #34,
Some people here simply can’t recognize a joke when they see it.
Some of you guys need to lighten up. Statik has been here a long time. It is very easy to see when he is joking.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (7:55 pm)These Japanese companies have big balls.This could never happen in a reverse situation. No way I want my tax dollars to go to Japanese companies when GM, Ford and Chrysler are fighting for survival. If this happens, we are dumb dumb!!
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:07 pm)One of the usual unintended consequences, especially when 600 lawyers write legislation. Apparently just being trained in the law doesn’t help you write competent laws. I’ll bet they’re great at chasing ambulances, though.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:17 pm)Zach Says: @ 5
“I say “no go”. There is no reason to loan our tax money to a foreign country to assist them in competition with our own companies.
The whole idea behind the loan is to keep our companies here at home competitive and technologically advanced.”
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Well said Zach.
If there is ever a time to help our competition, this isn’t. Let Japan help their own companies. I can not comprehend how anyone thinks the US tax dollars should help foreign companies when our companies are in dire needs. They are many Canadians on this site who are commenting and don’t care because the money is not coming from their pockets.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:25 pm)Loans to Nissan was a surprising item, but, in reading some of the informative posts, one could keep in mind that loans can be secured by hard assets of one sort or another.
While also keeping in mind the other questions this raises, such as, why does not the Japanese treasury not apparently offer the same to Nissan?
A One-world economy is apparently a paradigm that is shaping up here, and, if the loan-indebtedness is really a function of how much is to be leveraged out of the environment (or not leveraged out of the environment, ie, productivity/mineral & energy extraction, etc), to “satisfy” “paying-it-all-back” (and to whom?), the question remains:
Is the “paying-it-all-back” payback to the environment? If not, (which it never can be directly), then what is the very next good that the extractions of mineral and energy as future carbon-load might be offset by?
My answer: Extractions of mineral and energy which are utilized to
*reduce greatly the future extractions of mineral and energy.*
*Plug-ins* have my top-most appreciation for this.
Impractical notions that somehow national debt is to be physically paid back in some scenario by your children and their children is not as readily viewed as practicable. The carbon-load “debt” certainly is understandable by your children whether or not you deny it or not. International debt may somehow be converted to an accounting to the future (generations) from these paper leverages of the current paper-leveraged-corporate-carbon-load-productions (the result of products made), which may be part of considerations by which the future costs of carbon-loading may be made accountable in setting priorities to repair them.
If more money is to be printed (via these loans) to leverage more out of the environment, ultimately more mineral and energy, then one thing we must certainly take topmost priority:
a strict open-mindedness for secured-lending (for future carbon-large-savings) if it means that all other asset distributions of, say, Nissan, are held to *zero* (stock dividends, bonuses, etc, and, an open accounting of their internal books), as if they were headquartered in the USA. Let the same hoops which GM and Chrysler had to jump through, also apply as strictly to any others. (If “asset shifting” and “debt consolidation” within Nissan into any loans from America is not at all the case.)
Dan Petit Austin TX
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:31 pm)RB Says@6
“Nissan asking for a loan seems at first to be strange. In thinking about it, though, I realize that if GM can ask for loans from Canada or Germany and use loan money to import engines from Austria and build cars in Mexico, it is only logical for Nissan to ask for funds from the USA? Nissan hires people in the US, pays taxes in the US, and no doubt is separately incorporated in the US, so why not?”
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Get your facts straight. GM has not asked any foreign companies for a loan. It has been offered from different countries because out of fear GM will close some of those plants.With Canada GM has refused because the Canadians are attaching too many strings to the loan plus the fact they want to make very little concessions.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/25/gm-turns-down-3b-canadian-bailout/
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:31 pm)DaV8or says To those like Statik and Canuk (who I assume is Canadian) I understand them not really caring one way or another, they and many others on this blog from other countries don’t have a dog in this fight. They can sit at the side lines and watch America implode and not really care what comes next,
—–
I too care greatly about seeing America not implode. Remember, I’m right here beside you in Canada; wheather I like it or not, when you guys are hurting we are hurting right along with you as our economies are closely tied. I realize though, most Americans do not ever know this, because Canada to them is such a pipsqueak of a country, that it is not worth even paying attention to.
I think that at this time of despiration when we need to do another “Manhattan” project as some here have referred to, we cannot hold on to the selfish nationalism that only serves to prolong the time it takes to electrify our cars. In other words, we need to bring on all the talent and brain power possible to achieve the goal.
Just think, America imports $700 billion in foreign oil every year. For every year we knock off getting to full electric drive, imagine the cost savings in foreign oil not required. It makes the loan to Nissan seem pretty insignificant.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:43 pm)Its all about attaching strings to the loan.
GM didn’t take Canada loans because of the strings attached.
USA didn’t attach enough strings and GM imports engine from some place and delay the engine plant and use it for negotiations.
Attach proper strings and say clean :If you want our money , make sure its spend here, give people jobs here else go out of business and jobs need to have a clear definitions because else jobs will limit to import manager ,tuck driver, warehouse manager and assembler. GM is playing that already with battery and make announcement that its made in US ( should be imported from Korea and assembled in USA ).
Lend to Nissan or Toyota or Honda with STRINGS attached. Govt never need to promise to keep GM/Ford in business. It has to make sure only the money is spend in the economy its running (not some other economy). I was reading a report saying Toyota Tundra has more US content than a similar GM/Ford offering.
If they are global companies let them as money from UN or so.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (8:51 pm)Joe @55
If there is ever a time to help our competition, this isn’t. Let Japan help their own companies. I can not comprehend how anyone thinks the US tax dollars should help foreign companies when our companies are in dire needs. They are many Canadians on this site who are commenting and don’t care because the money is not coming from their pockets
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Sorry to have to burst your idea of reality Joe. We Canadians are offering several billion dollars in loan gaurantees to your American car companies here in Canada, which per capita, is probably more than you’re going to have to cough up — and these are your companies!
And just to rub salt in our wounds, your companies here are starting to close up shop and put many of those tax payers out of a job. How’s that for a great big “Thanks, you Canuck chump”
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:00 pm)I’ve read all the blogs on this topic. Assuming most of the bloggers are Americans, God forbid, this country is in trouble. It seems few can intelligently reason what is right or wrong with our country. With this kind of mentality, we will surely become a second rate nation.
WAKE AMERICANS!!
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:12 pm)Interesting-Both Toyota and Honda are beholden to the Japanese Government!
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Toyota didn’t consider applying, said Irv Miller, U.S. group vice president.
“We’re not interested in being beholden to the government,” Miller said. The company said last week that it expected to report its first annual loss in 71 years for the fiscal year ending March 31.
Tokyo-based Honda, which still expects to be profitable this year, didn’t apply because it funds advanced technology internally, said Ed Cohen, vice president for U.S. government affairs.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:13 pm)Canuk Says: @60
“Sorry to have to burst your idea of reality Joe. We Canadians are offering several billion dollars in loan gaurantees to your American car companies here in Canada, which per capita, is probably more than you’re going to have to cough up — and these are your companies!”
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You said GM asked for a loan and that’s not true. The reason why Canada has offered a loan is because GM has threatened to pull out of Canada. You should know that because you live there. In the US new workers wages have been cut in half and have given up on many other benefits. What has the Canadian done in terms of concessions?
Anyhow, I don’t think you have the right to tell us how Americans should spend our tax dollars just as I don’t have the right to tell the Canadians how to spend their tax dollars.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (9:43 pm)______________________________________________________
America should bail out the entire globe!
I agree that the Government should give massive loans to foreign owned companies such as Nissan that have a USA incorporated subsidiary. What kind of message would it send out if we discriminated against a company like Nissan just because their parent company is not American? Giving away American taxpayer dollars should be a global equal opportunity thing.
I’m very disappointed with Toyota. It’s such an insult to the American people that they don’t want American taxpayer money. Just goes to show you how unappreciative those guys are of all the cars American’s are buying from them. The Government should force Toyota to take the money like they did with Wells Fagro. It is not fair that an automaker operating in America be given the chance to not participate in this very important and necessary Government Stimulus Plan.
I’ve got the Champaign cooling in the fridge to celebrate when our politicians get this next mega stimulus plan approved! I don’t know about you but I’m starting to fell very stimulated; all that government spending is making me want to go out and buy stuff!
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:25 pm)Joe @ 62,
Anyhow, I don’t think you have the right to tell us how Americans should spend our tax dollars just as I don’t have the right to tell the Canadians how to spend their tax dollars.
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The exchange that I’ve had today with the people here was not to inflame or to ruffle feathers, or to tell you how to spend your tax dollars. As a Canadian with the typical diplomatic demeanour we often are known for, I was trying to present my stance in the most reasoned manner I could with the hope that it would make you look at things from the overall world perspective for the benefit of us all, including America.
I have learned today that there is probably a lot of hurt and frustration amongst some Americans with respect to the economic woes encircling them. It is starting to sink in that the heydays of living off the world as it’s oyster is likely over, and it will take a while to come to terms with that. I sincerely hope that it does’nt take too long, as cooperation and mutual respect rather than conflict, with other countries will result in benefits for all of us. Not only for the development of the electric car, but for any venture undertaken.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (10:35 pm)Rashad Amul #52
Jeez Rashad do you think everyone here is a retarded ? We all get Statik’s humor, we’ve been listening listening to it for some time now. Statik, being from Toronto, likes to yank the chains of others and they like to yank his back. Its mostly in good fun. And now I’m yanking yours by responding to your post.
Rashad,smiley face stolen from ‘ziv ‘ (because I’m too lazy to be original) is mean’t to denote tongue in cheek reply. Be well and prosper (also stolen).
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:17 pm)DaV8or (which I assume is an American)
Don’t make us come down there and kick your butts like we did back in the war of 1812. Whoops, that was really the Brits but Canucks like to take credit for it anyways.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:27 pm)#64. As an American, I find this statement extremely insulting. First of all, we are not living “off the world as our oyster.” Maybe some of the investment bankers on wall street and certain CEOs, but definately not the average American. In fact, most western Europeans and Canadians have a much higher quality of life than most Americans. Yes, we consume the largest amount of the world’s oil per capita, but that’s because we don’t have good public transportation. And, FYI, Canada benefits from that.
We are the only developed country where citizens pay for our own health care. And we pay a higher price for that health care than anyone else. Which, by the way, funds health care R&D for basically the entire world–70% of the value of patents comes from the US. I haven’t seen anyone thanking us for that. We’re exporting jobs at a frightening rate due to unbalanced trade agreements. We work much longer hours than anywhere else in the developed world. We have, on average, two weeks of vacation a year. And that includes sick days. If the US government is exploiting other countries, they’re doing a really bad job of it.
Yes, we do have a higher standard of living than, say, China, India, Eastern Europe, South America, Africa. And they can complain all they want to about our use of resources. But Canada and Western Europe can stop moralizing. Now.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:36 pm)Once Nissan learns about President Obama’s many loan conditions (he determines what cars they can make, sets salary caps, no private jets, no corporate parties, only single-ply toilet paper in the restrooms, etc), Nissan won’t want our money.
Not that I think they should get any.
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Feb 8th, 2009 (11:54 pm)Re: HumoUr (note Canadian ‘u’) — All in good fun today fellas…all in good fun.
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#23 DaV8or said:
To those like Statik and Canuk (who I assume is Canadian) I understand them not really caring one way or another, they and many others on this blog from other countries don’t have a dog in this fight. They can sit at the side lines and watch America implode and not really care what comes next, but there are those of us who almost can’t recognize the country we grew up in anymore and are nauseated by the defeatism that is becoming dominant here.
#55 Joe said:
They are many Canadians on this site who are commenting and don’t care because the money is not coming from their pockets.
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I was just going to let it roll away, but there seems to be a fair deal of comments on this of late, so I offer my position.
I can’t speak for the ‘other’ Canadians (and no I don’t know Suzie from Winnipeg…there is a lot of us, lol), but I personally realize the US and Canada have a very symbiotic relationship.
Where I live (on the East side of Toronto) has one of the highest concentrations of ‘US owned/domestically based’ automotive (and auto part related)companies found anywhere in North America. So, while it is true the loss of the ‘Big 2.451′ would not hurt me personally, it would have a dramatic effect on some friends and family, which would still be more than unpleasant for me.
While it is true I pulled out of investing in the US, and I have been shorting/working the put options somewhat in US securities, that should not be confused with not caring/believing in the US…it is merely investing the best way I see to make a return. Sometimes you benefit on the backs of others misfortune…sometimes you benefit based on their success.
The US credit freeze/recession/depression is not something I like to see happening, and has certainly spilled over to Canada. Take for instance Canada losing 129,000 jobs last month, we are tenth America’s size…that is like the US dropping 1.3 million (a monster number)…or our own real estate market going from steady only 6 months ago to down 15% over the past couple months.
Most of my fellow Canadians usually don’t like it when I say this, but in many ways I see Canada as being part of America, like a extra “baker’s dozen” states if you will (maybe because I went to school in the US…maybe because I watch too much CNBC)….sure there are some differences, we float seperate currencies and we were never fans of subprime mortgages, but at the end of the day we are not very dissimilar to each other.
/what the heck am I saying here? I dunno…but trust me, I do care.
I want the US to be the global leader…and Canada to be its Kato. (Green Lantern reference for all you non-nerds…or just wait a year or so when Seth Rogan, Jude Law and Adam Sandler make it into a movie…your kids can fill you in)
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:10 am)Laura #67
Don’t blame Canuk #64. He’s bought into a lot of that leftist babble whether its presented on Canadian news or on CNN. Rightly or wrongly that’s the way parts of the world view American actions. I think he was referring to the crooks, err… bankers on Wall Street who seem to influence American Government policy but not the citizenry.
Some countries think that America uses up too much of the World’s finite resources per ca pita compared to other nations and pollute too much while forgetting the benefits that are derived from America.
It would be nice if Canada and Western Europe moralized less but its not likely to gain any traction because moralizing is one the greatest pastimes of political pundits and it happens everywhere, even in the US.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:39 am)kent beuchert #54
very funny comment on the 600 lawyers and competency. Thank goodness there wasn’t 600 lawyers around when US constitution was penned.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (12:54 am)Paul-R #68
Especially single-ply toilet paper in the restrooms. Its a real bummer
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Feb 9th, 2009 (3:21 am)In 1972 on a hot summer day in Bowling Green Ky Mr Bill Natcher was at his station at the Holley Carb. plant at around 10:00 am a sizable group of Japans started crawling over their assembly line taking pics of every thing for a week, at that time Mr Natcher didn’t give it much thought but 20/20 hindsight a bitch ! American Companies didn’t thing the japs where even worth worrying about at that time. I worked with Bill for a couple of years after I got out of college . Bill was died of cancer three months after he retired from Holley ,the carmike cinema & a news paper route which he worked all three jobs for over 30 years . One of the last time we spoke has sure that USA Government gave the Japs unlimited a access to all U.S Companies at that time (Gee whiz where Nice guys!!). If the name Natcher sounds familiar his brothers name has William Natcher U.S Senator who never missed a vote on the house floor . Bill you one the hardest working man I have met and I am glad you are not witnessing this Nightmare.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (5:24 am)Today marks a milestone. We now have an EV owner on our block. A neighbor drove up in his EV Jetta today. It’s white with a light blue plug-in decal on the hood (=D~). Yes, we already have GEM vehicles and other “carts”, but this is the first freeway drivable EV on the block.
Last year on gm-volt dot com we had a big talk about adding more sound to the new Ev’s and E-REVs so blind persons can hear them coming. After hearing this EV VW, I realize that the electric motor makes enough “whine” noise to easily be heard with plenty of nitice. Sounds like your car backing up. A low turbine note.
Hope to see many more on our (and on your) block soon.
=D~
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Feb 9th, 2009 (6:17 am)Ed M # 65
Sorry Ed, I misread the responses. My bad.
Thanks for setting me straight.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (6:40 am)Wow. Coincidence! At this very minute there is an NPR blurb on Nissan’s woes. They are the third largest Japanese car maker. Cutting 20,000 jobs this year. A projected operations loss of $2 Billion this year. Cutting production by 40%. Suffered a 70% loss in share values. There’s more but I can’t listen and type that fast.
Let them fail. People here make the vague argument that Nissan “creates US jobs.” What people don’t seem to understand is the job multiplier effect of US car companies vs. Japanese car companies. US-made cars truly do tend to have significantly more US-sourced parts and use US engineering. A Buick made in Michigan creates far more American wealth than a Honda assembled in Ohio. Let Nissan fail. That’s just less competition for our guys. Am I a shameless nationalist? Yup.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (7:02 am)Hey, I’ll take a mil….. WHAT?? at least I’ve been paying in for 30 years….
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Feb 9th, 2009 (7:51 am)the canadian govt has given loans to GM and Chrysler. but why should us govt give loans to nissan . if they give they should ask nissan to make all parts here and not in japan . also US made cars should go to japan without any restriction
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:46 am)Canuck @64 says
“The exchange that I’ve had today with the people here was not to inflame or to ruffle feathers, or to tell you how to spend your tax dollars. As a Canadian with the typical diplomatic demeanour we often are known for,”
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How can you say this in one line and at the next line you throw insulting remarks? You talk from both side of your mouth.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (8:51 am)All of the foreign car companies have gotten plenty of ‘tax’ breaks to build in the southern states. They are foreign companies who have received plenty of help from their home countries over the years whereas the US government hasn’t helped our home industries to the tune the foreign companies have been helped by their countries.
The American taxpayer should not be helping foreign companies, regardless of their building plants here. The dollars still go overseas and their workers are paid much less than our domestic workers.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:03 am)The Bird Feeder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk
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Feb 9th, 2009 (9:53 am)My initial response is that the bill should have limited the money to companies with majority American ownership. But, I guess, we should not expect our congress to write a bill that does not have holes big enough for their friends to drive through. Not saying that Nissan has close friends in congress, but congress does not seem to know how to write a bill that is “tight”. Simple bills to them is a bill containing just under 500 pages. Bills start out as a hundred or couple hundred pages and grow from there. Sometimes I think we would be better off if there was no congress at all.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:38 am)I think it is absolutely our right to receive this grant. We would welcome $5 billion in U.S. Government grants to enable us to more rapidly cover the entire country with our wonderful high performance electric vehicle. Our EV technology is far superior the GM’s thereby requiring money in grant form while GM should be loan only. Nissan is the preferred enabler of electric cars for the United States and the rest of the world. Fellow GM Volt fans, we will be waiting for you at the finish line.
-Carlos
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Feb 9th, 2009 (11:59 am)No way.
Next case.
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Feb 9th, 2009 (1:45 pm)#83 Carlos Ghosn
Yeah, sure. If you are really who you say you are. And I doubt it. Good try though. Almost enough to make one laugh out loud.
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Feb 16th, 2009 (6:58 am)68.
Laura Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
“Yes, we do have a higher standard of living than, say, China, India, Eastern Europe, South America, Africa. And they can complain all they want to about our use of resources. But Canada and Western Europe can stop moralizing. Now. ”
Why are you saying this laura… We as Western europe are as bad as you?? Oke let’s see… We have far more strict rules as it is for cars and enviorment as you. ( special filters for diesels.. ( in law ))
And you pay for the Co2 you emit.
Our gasoline is like few times more expensive then yours..
Houses: They are also strict at that point here. Cannot just make a house yourself. It will not comply the rules. And allot rules about it is about issolation. New houses are so well issolated you only need the heating like 2 weeks in the winter. And now they want a heat pump in new houses for better cooling and heating.
We recycle almost everything !! ( it’s in the law )
paper,glas,plastic,electronics,cars. Well can’t sum them all.
If you buy a gass guzzler the goverment put’s another 1600 euro on the price tag.( and other special “slurp tax” as we call it ) If you buy a hybrid you get like 6000 euro discount. And the roadtax is less..
Germany has the largest Photo Voltiac industry int the world. And is at the top of environment technology in the world.
And they have special laws that make Photo Voltiac viable.
Do i have to continue??
Oh yes, we have health care for EVERYONE! Nobody excluded.
Wealth in america? we haven’t got many rich people but:
Our wealth is “spread” better. In america you have rich family’s and really poor family’s.
And we don’t have president’s who are choosen because they have money. Even poor people here with good idea’s can get president!
Presidents get money from company’s in america.. that system is totally wrong! =D but any fool can tell that..
Anyway i don’t like to blame amerika, but if you blame us….we will blame you.
And p.s. i like your Environment products like tesla and volt and aptera. And if everyone is doing there best thing we will get there..
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Feb 16th, 2009 (9:02 pm)Let’s see how tough the Congress will be on these non-US companies. American taxpayers should only support US companies.
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Feb 17th, 2009 (3:16 pm)I understand some of you trying to protect the us based companies, but realize that Nissan employees thousands of people in the us. Plus Nissan isn’t as bad off as these us companies. Nissan Manufacturing companies has not had any layoffs in the us. Unlike these us based companies. So if you trying to protect the us jobs you need to try and protect all of them. These us companies are taking way more money than Nissan will ever take. Those couple of years that they were in trouble actually was 10 years ago. Which they were able to overcome without laying off anybody. These us based companies haven’t been able to do that to date. So if you going to support someone I would go for the one who has proven that they can overcome financial situations.
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May 22nd, 2009 (1:05 am)I’ve been working for Nissan in Smyrna Tn for 24 years. I’m American and so are my co-workers. Our motors are also built in TN along with many other parts. The Altima and Maxima that we produce have more American made content than many of the big 3 built auto’s. The loan that Nissan has requested would add more jobs in Tennessee as well as all over our country. Remember this is a loan not a free bail out. All the companies had to meet certain qualifications before they could even be considered eligible for the low interest loans. The U.S. loan program gives preference to companies that use the financing to revamp factories at least 20 years old. In Nissan’s case, its Smyrna, Tennessee, plant that already builds Altima hybrid sedans meets the requirement.
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