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Bolivia Can Become the Saudi Arabia of Lithium

February 7th, 2009 | Posted in: Battery

One of our main concerns here as ardent supporters (mostly) of the Chevy Volt is its ability to make a significant stride towards moving the US towards petroleum independence. By powering our cars through the electric grid and lithium-ion batteries we wouldn’t need to import petroleum. Indeed even President Obama has pledged a goal in the US of 1 million plugin hybrid on US roads by 2015.

Many know though that lithium ion batteries are made mostly by Asian companies, including the Volt’s supplier LG Chem. Furthermore, the raw lithium comes from yet other nations.

The New York Times published a provocative piece on the importance of Bolivia in this industry.

It turns out Bolivia possesses half of the world’s lithium. As a base metals executive from Mitubishi says “There are salt lakes in Chile and Argentina, and a promising lithium deposit in Tibet, but the prize is clearly in Bolivia, if we want to be a force in the next wave of automobiles and the batteries that power them, then we must be here.”

One problem is that Evo Morales’ government of Bolivia is a fervent critic of the US, has already nationalized the country’s oil and gas industries and threatens to closely control the lithium industry and keep foreigners at bay.

Also, the indigenous people that live among the salt flats also want a piece of the action, adding to the tension. A leader of salt gatherer groups has said “we know that Bolivia can become the Saudi Arabia of lithium, we are poor, but we are not stupid peasants. The lithium may be Bolivia’s, but it is also our property.”

The United States Geological Survey says 5.4 million tons of lithium could eventually be extracted in Bolivia, compared with 3 million in Chile, 1.1 million in China and just 410,000 in the United States.

A significant problem is Bolivia remains a poorly developed nation and hasn’t actually begun a lithium mining industry in earnest. The country has been under the patronage of Venezuela whose financial reach is declining along with oil prices.

The combination of a lack of resources, politics, internal strife, and a checkered past places the hopes of an important lithium production capacity in considerable doubt.

This uncertainty is of particular concern for experts who believe the country’s vast reserves will be needed if lithium ion batteries are to one day account for the bulk of automotive propulsion energy storage.

Source (NYT)

Posted by: Lyle

103 Responses to “Bolivia Can Become the Saudi Arabia of Lithium”

roger Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:00 am

The mineral rights to Bolivia’s salt flats are owned by an amercian chemical company – LMC based in PA. However, the last time (Mid 90’s) they tried to develop these resourses the political infighting and fighting over bribe money killed it. Let’s hope Chile remains a stable and friendly country. NPNS

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Dave G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:03 am

There are problems, but on the bright side, we can recycle worn out Lithium batteries.

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Estero Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:05 am

This information reinforces what many already believe. While the road to energy independence may run through lithium ion batteries, it is nothing more than a stop in the road. Long term energy independence is dependent upon research and development of other technologies; ultracapacitors, other battery chemistries, etc.

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statik Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:05 am

I look forward to Bolivia having the world’s tallest bulding.

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Cautious Fan Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:06 am

We need to get off our lithium addiction right now!!!! Ha ha ha. I almost feel bad for environmentalists. The world just keep spinning round and round. It’s always something.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:08 am

“The spice must flow!”

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Chris Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:11 am

If not, you’ll see a lot of hit pieces on Bolivia being “Al Qaeda Terrorists”, and the US will just go in there and take it. Watch, if this Lithium thing takes off, Bolivia will be the next “Iraq/Iran”.

Killing people over iPhones and cars that don’t even exist yet. What a world.

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Starcast Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:17 am

I say burn more oil it is way to cold this year!

With people driving less this year we are having one of the coldest years ever. New record lows on a regular basis.

Think about it, if we all go electric we are going to go into an ice age.

I say drive more SUVs, burn more oil, heat this place up. I’m freezing.

Sorry it just had to be said ;>)

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JP Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:26 am

To #4 above:

Bolivia already HAS the world’s tallest building – well, ok technically it’s the HIGHEST, since their Capital, La Paz, sits at 12,000 feet above sea level, the highest in the world.

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omnimoeish Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:29 am

We need to put some kind of Bolivian equivalent of the “Shaw of Iran” in power. – totally not serious

Anyone seen the latest James Bond movie, “Quantum of Solace”? Here’s a sum up. The world is fighting over resources, especially oil, The bad guy is part of a worldwide conspiracy of resource thieves that gain power and money by controlling the world’s resources. They make a deal with the always selfish Americans to let them stage a coup in Bolivia (of all places) and force the next leader to give them control of their resources. Add a few Bond girls, chase scenes and explosions and you’ve just seen the movie.

Well, let’s hope we can find a battery based on something in the United States. It sounds like getting Lithium is going to be exactly the same problem as oil. According to those figures given, even counting Bolivia and assuming we can mine every last bit of it economically, I count that there is about 10 million tons of Lithium between those countries listed. Assuming those are the only significant Lithium Deposits, that’s not going to go very far for our EVs anyway. There is something like 50 million vehicles sold annually. If each battery requires 100 pounds or lithium, this would only last 2 years.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:35 am

#8 Starcast

Which brings up an interesting topic. Are we really experiencing global warming?

One theory suggests global warming is caused by high CO2 levels which is caused by human activity (including the burning of fossil fuels).

The second theory proposes that global warming is mainly caused by solar activity, since the sun’s activity levels are cyclic. CO2 levels are increased as a result of Earth’s temperature.

Given this winter and last year’s winter, I wonder if the 2nd theory may actually hold some validiity. However, it is known that since the industrial revolution, CO2 levels have increased from ~180 ppm to over 380 ppm, so it would seem there has to be some effect from human activity.

I don’t propose to have the answer, but I can see why Bob Lutz may not agree with the status quo on this one.

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Chris Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:36 am

Keep in mind though that lithium is easily recyclable.

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Chris Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:38 am

Someone should engineer a car that runs off the hopes and dreams of children. Or political rhetoric. North America has plenty of both.

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User Name Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:41 am

#1 Roger
The mineral rights to Bolivia’s salt flats are owned by the Bolivian people & no one else, regardless of what agreements were signed.

I’d also like to point out that the oil under the sands of Iraq is the property of the Iraqi people & no one else as well.

I find it interesting that you so casually state that the natural resources of a sovereign country such as Bolivia do not belong to its people, but rather some company in Pennsylvania.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:49 am

# 14 Loser Name,

And obviously your property belongs to the people of your country, (what, you think you own it just because you bought and paid for it and have a deed to it?)

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User Name Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:05 am

#15 BillR1
First off, I did’nt say anything about property; I said natural resources.
Bill, do you have the deed for Yellowstone national Park?
No you do not, but guess what Bill, you own it!!!
Yeah you got it, you own Yellowstone National Park & so do the all the rest of the Citizens of the United States.

How ridiculous would it be to hear someone say that the mineral rights to Yellowstone National Park belong to some small company somewhere in Bolivia?

Sorry guys, but the colonialistic-imperialistic view is obsolete.
Typical adherents to the philosophy of American hegemony are the reason why Republicans are losing seats in the house & senate at an alarming rate.

America does’nt own the world or its resources; snap out of it.

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statik Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:08 am

#8 starcast said: “With people driving less this year we are having one of the coldest years ever. New record lows on a regular basis.”

#11 BillR1 said: “Which brings up an interesting topic. Are we really experiencing global warming?”

============================

Oh noes! I can’t hear you…LA LA LA LA
…and after such a great thread yesterday.

/apparently balance must be brought to the Force

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N Riley Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:24 am

If I remember correctly, lithium can be extracted from sea water or from the sea bed.

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Tagamet Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:30 am

I think the group did very well. It took 6 posts before the 7th started the “I guess the USA will just invade and take it” cr@pola. If we ever find a way to harness ideological Black Holes, we’re all set.
My “spin”, er, opinion, is that the pace technology is such that any one commodity will be “necessary” for a very brief time e.g. Platinum has just started being replaced by carbon nanotubes as a better catalyst on fuel cells at MIT. WAY cheaper (if it can scale up) and more energy (NOT a plug for fuel cells in transportation, just an example).
And yes, Statik, the Yin and the Yang must balance. That’s why we’re here (g).
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS***************Independence Day 2010

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DonC Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:46 am

Lithium was one of those Big Bang elements. It’s common but doesn’t show up in large concentrations, making it hard to find in commercial quantities. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, lithium batteries use very little of the element and you can recycle the battery packs.

Also I would assume that there will be alternatives going forward. Li-ion are the the battery of the moment but a few companies are getting very good results from reformulating lead acid batteries. Pared with super-capacitors they can deliver good performance and have a great cost advantage. One of these companies, Axion Power, was profiled in the Economist. I think it’s from Tag’s part of the world so maybe he’s the mastermind behind it and his participation here is part of a plan for world domination.

http://www.economist.com/research/articlesbysubject/displaystory.cfm?subjectid=8951908&story_id=12924031

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ziv Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:47 am

Not sure if Western Lithium is the Canadian version of EEstor, but they claim to have the rights to mine a relatively accessible 600,000 tons of Lithium at a spot near Kings Valley Nevada. Total lithium carbonate could exceed 10,000,000 tons. They envision producing approximately 20,000 tons a year. If true, it would be huge. But I am not too sure I like the idea of a Canadian company mining a strategic material like lithium. If anything negative happens, we could have the Canadian Army taking over control of resources that are the property of the AMERICAN PEOPLE!
Power to the people!
http://www.westernlithium.com/_resources/WLCresourceJan08.pdf

NPNS

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GM Volt Fan Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am

You don’t absolutely HAVE TO have lithium with automotive batteries. There might be all kinds of battery chemistries in development that don’t use lithium. Things like zinc-air batteries maybe. I hear the Japanese are researching that and other chemistries. Zinc is very plentiful. Besides, I don’t think the mining companies have been looking too hard for lithium anyway. There might be a huge supply of lithium in Utah and Nevada right now and we don’t even know it. It’s not like you fill up your battery with lithium at the pump like you do with gasoline either. Right now, you need ONE supply of lithium in your battery per 100,000 miles or so.

They might use add some sort of nanotech to lithium ion batteries that makes them so durable they last 300,000 miles. If they combine ultracapacitors with batteries, they might last 500,000 miles. I hear ultracaps can last a LONG time. Who knows what these genius scientists and engineers have in the pipeline in the next 20 years. They might radically reduce the costs of fuel cells and hydrogen storage containers in the next 10 years.

They might be able to make hydrogen “on demand” in the future. Hydrogen fueling stations might someday have “micro nuclear plants” deep underground to provide the electricity to split water into hydrogen. It might be like the new hot water heaters that heat up water in your house “on demand”. This might get rid of the need for a lot of hydrogen infrastructure like storage, pipelines, etc. In the early years, you wouldn’t need too many hydrogen fueling stations because the plug-in cars would have much improved batteries that might go 80 miles before the fuel cell kicks in.

http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/

Electric powertrain cars are here to stay. The internal combustion engine is going into the dustbin of history. It’s just a matter of time.

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Dwayne Scott Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am

Why should we assume that a sovereign nation owns the rights to what ever natural resources reside within the borders they claim. If that be true then I suppose we could just go to war, take the land and claim it our own. Then the resources would belong to us, Might makes right – so they say! Lets get real – what claim to ownership does anyone have to anything. We are born naked and leave this world not much different.

Let us be smart and use all the planets’ resources for the good of all – only then can peace reign. As long as we always look to our own welfare to the exclusion of others; war will presist.

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TALLPALL Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

Only 661 Day’s to go…..

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Tagamet Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

DonC@20 said in part:
“…One of these companies, Axion Power, was profiled in the Economist. I think it’s from Tag’s part of the world so maybe he’s the mastermind behind it and his participation here is part of a plan for world domination.”

SHOOT. Busted.
We really could use some tech jobs here in the heart of Anthracite country. I remember my father coming home from the mine and the only thing white was his eyes. All the homes had a closed porch so the men could wash in a big tub before entering the house. God Bless America – my grandparents were all immigrants and died before I was born, one of my parents graduated high school and I got through college. Our country, for all it’s warts, is still the best there is.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! ***************NPNS*************** Independence Day 2010.

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David Herron Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pm

To take a phrase out of context: How did our lithium get under their sand? With oil we in the West seem to be treating the middle east as being inconvenient possessors of our oil and therefore we feel free to launch wars in the middle east and in central asia to gain control over access to “our” oil. Similarly lithium is located in a country who’s leader has been demonized as an evil socialist, whose government is interfering with efforts to build corporations to extract natural gas and now lithium, etc. Are we going to launch a war in Bolivia (or if not a war a simple coup) to change the government to one who is more amenable to our desires?

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Yankee Doodle Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

I believe most of the mineral rights in Bolivia belong to America (as in The United States of America) !

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Jason Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:15 pm

#11 – After Inconvenient Truth, I was pretty convinced about global warming as a concern directly related to human actions. The effects of global warming would trigger goofy changes in the various climates across the globe which might actually include cooling in areas.

After a modest amount of research, I now consider global warming as an ineffective approach to motivate change in human behavior. I’m much more focused on buying my Chevy Volt, or other competitively priced plug in vehicle with a decent range, to improve the environment and keeping my transportation dollars here at home. This motivation is much more difficult to argue against and resist.

Whether global warming is REAL is not the issue. There’s clearly a link between many health problems and the emissions we pump into the air. We should increase our “Clean” coal and waste to energy at first. Then, ramp up the wind and tidal power. Next, bring on more efficient and wide spread solar. Finally, the flux capacitor (OH YA!). Maybe after all that hydrogen cars will be about 10 years away ;o)

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statik Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:16 pm

I don’t understand this thread at all. It is my understanding no lithium at all is used in EEStor technology…so who cares?

Sorry Bolivia, you get to keep the title of lowest GDP in South America…and while your at it, you can keep all your soybeans and tin to yourself too.

/next thread

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GuyMan Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:20 pm

#18 – Yes – Trace amounts of Li are found in sea water – Key word there is TRACE – You need LOTS of seawater (5x the volume of the Nile river flow, to make a couple of million volts) – and LOTS of energy to extract it – Not saying it can’t be done – But a VERY painful and expensive method to get Li – They will definitely go after the brine deposits in Bolevia/Argentina first – Much easier/cheaper to get Li..

See the following (slightly biased against “cheap Li” IMHO) for a good list of what Li is found where, seawater extraction, etc…

http://www.meridian-int-res.com/Projects/Lithium_Microscope.pdf

Perhaps more importantly, LiOn batteries are not the “end all” of batteries – Oh, their better than NiMH or NiCd, etc – but don’t kid yourself they we’ll be using LiOn batteries for the next 20 years.. LiOn is currently the best short term bet on batteries that exists today – I would guess the LiOn will rule the roast for the next 5-10 years. Once Li starts to get harder (read expensive) to get, the battery world will advance again – My personal favorite is Zn or Ag halide/Air batteries – Higher energy densities, safer etc – Just a bitch to make rechargable, currently – Most military batteries are Ag-Zn, and the first Sputnik batteries were metal based. Nasaman should weigh in here.. None of these were designed to be rechargable, all oneshot type of applications, but very high energy densities

But Zinc is a very plentiful (read cheap) element..

So yea – Buy your SQM stock now, but long term, Li will NOT have a “50 year” rule of batteries like oil, the energy densities are just not there, nowhere near liquid fuels – And I don’t begrudge Boliva from making money over the next 10 years while they can, the Middle East has had their run, IMHO, lets send some buckets of cash to South America for a few years (anyone been to Rio recently )

Bottom line, we already know there are better batteries choices than Li, they are just not commerically viable yet.. LiOn is the best we have, that’s massed produced today. If you want to built a BEV or EREV, without getting into experimental chemistries (not a great idea for a mass produced anything – laptops, phones, cars). LiOn is it. But long term, there are clearly better alternatives. Just as long term, a EREV makes little sense, once battery technology improves enough with higher energy desnisties, and shorter recharger times, the BEV’s will clearly win out (cheaper, easier, etc) – But my sense is that will be a 10-25 year transition, and EREV’s (or hybrids, tip of the hat to Ford’s last article) make alot of sense during that transition. I’m sure Denise Gray and company know all this already – hence one of the reasons to not invest in cell manufacturing (besides they don’t have the capital), and focus on the pack (which is much closer to the “cars” needs).

See my personal favorite “Future battery” is here, but YMMV, and this is clearly a long term play,,,

http://www.revolttechnology.com/res/presentation/White%20paper%20ReVolt%20Technology_280307.pdf

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noel park Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:37 pm

#7 Chris:

You beat me to it. I’ll bet that no good Evo Morales has a WMD stashed somewhere. Is there such a thing as a lithium bomb?

I commented the other day on Naomi Klein’s “The Shock Doctrine”. She has one entire chapter on the disgraceful record of the US government, the IMF, the World Bank, et al’s destabilizing, subverting, and essentially overthrowing of the government of Bolivia. President Morales represents the blowback of the people of Bolivia against the immoral meddling of the USA in Bolivia’s internal affairs. Once again we shoot ourselves in the foot.

I devoutly hope that they are able to leverage these lithium resources into a better life for their people.

#14 User Name:

Thanks. It takes a fair amount of courage to expose yourself to the inevitable flaming.

It reminds me of my favorite Bob Dylan song, “Bob Dylan’s 115th Dream”:

“Cap’n Arab he started out writing up some deeds. He said ‘Let’s build a fort, and start buying the place with beads’.”

#17 statik:

No s**t, LMAO!

#21:

It is totally amazing how many Canadian mining firms have operations in the US, all under the idiotic Mining Act of 1872. They essentially get the stuff for free, and usually leave the mess for us to clean up. They kind of do to us what we want to do to poor old Evo, LOL.

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GuyMan Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

#22 – I generally agree, it’s not really all about Li – Long term, it’s all about electricity replacing oil. If you have (magically) endless supplies of electricty, the H2 fueling at home makes sense – Currently I’m not a fan of H2 due to the fact that most H2 is currently stripped form natural gas, due to ease & cost. Batteries, like H2 are just the “electricty” storage mechanism..

Long term, the trick is how to make the electricty – Fission, Fusion, Solar, Wind, Clean coal. Etc – It’s all good! – My personal favorite article on all this is by Grove from Intel – Sticky and multi-source electricty, that’s the ticket!!

See:
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/july-august-magazine-contents/our-electric-future

He really nails it, IMHO, and he’s a pretty bright/successful guy (with less of a “agenda” then the Pickens plan)..

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BobW Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:45 pm

According to the Argonne National Laboratories, materials costs seem to be 90% the cost to manufacture a Lithium Ion battery. Lithium seems to be about 30% of the cost of the materials.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/149.pdf

This makes me wonder whether there are economies of scale possible in battery production. Perhaps the best route to cheaper batteries may be through bettery battery technology, rather than through manufacturing process improvements.

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BobW Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:46 pm

On a political note, there is no reason why Bolivia should not profit from its lithium. It’s perfectly reasonable for them to expect local people to work the mines and run things. It’s reasonable for the government to tax it. If they don’t get stupid about it, everyone can win. Economics is *not* a zero-sum game.

The USA did not invade Iraq for the oil. It would have been cheaper to drop the sanctions and let them sell oil on the open market. We invaded because Saddam’s government wouldn’t stop making trouble for its neighbors. WMD was the specific case, but it wasn’t the only way. For example, with the UN oil-for-food program he was corrupting the UN bureacracy on an enormous scale.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE5DB1F3CF93AA15751C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

His government also made cash payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. The NY Times doesn’t think the money was a big motivator,

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9804E6D91E31F93AA15756C0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

But if you pay for something you tend to get more of it. Incentives do matter.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:53 pm

WOLT = World Organization Of Lithium Trade

LTNS = Lithium Trade Nations Society

=D~

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ziv Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 12:55 pm

GuyMan, you might not know it but Meridian’s work was done by William Tahil, and he is probably best known for two works, The Trouble With Lithium and The Nuclear Demolition of the World Trade Center. He believes that the twin towers were knocked down by a pair of nuclear devices. Once it became public knowledge that he was a nutter, Meridian published TWL2, but removed his name, which is odd because he is their research director and had done most of the work on lithium for them.

http://www.nucleardemolition.com/GZero_Sample.pdf

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Dave B Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

Estero @ 3, I agree… let’s keep going until we figure out what is the best technology for all interested parties from a cost, safety, and security perspective. For the momember however, I’d rather my money go to S. America than the Middle Easterners that hate America. For the most part, S. America is just trying to improve their standard of living.

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unni Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 1:08 pm

This will be said by the people who don’t understand the paradigm shift.

Electric cells purpose is only to store and release electric energy. If i can store electric energy with some other battery/ ultra capacitor technology then Lithium is not needed.If we found a cheaper storage and even less efficient but other factors like weight,size, storage capacity, charging time etc are good, people will shift with in minutes the new technology.

The paradigm shift is with EV’s we are using renewable energy. No more middle east – price up – next battery technology and cars needs to change only the battery and pack in the shape we needed ( ex: Volt T shape ).

AS a foot note : Yes in current setup, money is going to flow to Bolivia – till we find next technology / good ultra capacitor.

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RichardG Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 1:15 pm

BillR1 #6,

Dune was a great trilogy but not such a great movie.

Perhaps someone will develop blue “spice” batteries.

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GuyMan Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 1:23 pm

#36 – ziv – Good catch.. I had heard of the “nuclear demolition” theory before for 9/11, but I didn’t know a name, and more importantly, I didn’t know Tahil was the author of “TWL2″ – That taint’s the entire article, IMO.

Thanks for the correction – In #32, hopefully, there is nothing lurking out there about Grove…

I still like the revolt Zn-Air batteries, however…

And yes, I agree with #38 – It’s all about electricity, replacing oil, the Li just happens to be a short term destination, so lets let Boliva have their 15mins in the sun, as statik pointed out, they have a rather low GDP, so buckets of money for a few years can’t hurt…

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joe obrien Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 1:34 pm

Hey at least you don’t half to fill up weekly (or more) with lithium, It’s a one shot deal, or maybe 2 shot depending on the battery quality, so they really won’t have the ridiculous daily, weekly, sway on prices that oil has us locked to currently. Once we have the car the ups and downs of lithium, (if that even happens) won’t really affect us once we are able to plug in and recharge as it won’t affect the day to day costs.

Who knows, maybe even after 1-3 generations of lithium powered EVs, maybe they’ll have the ultra capacitors down pat and lithium will become as useless as OPEC’s oil to us. Maybe they better not toot their almighty lithium horn so soon?

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Shaft Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

Nobody has looked much for lithium. Remember, a lot of oil was found after the energy crisis of the eary 70’s. Much more lithium will be found when people start looking in earnest. The big bang made more lithium than you can imagine … and some of it will be found in suitaby concentrated form for economic mining.

And unlike oil, when your car heads for the junk yard, all the lithium is still there … and easily extractable.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

The Converj should have been named the Saline.

=D~

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Nick G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:28 pm

Lithium is pretty abundant, and can be found in a lot of places, including China and Australia. Here’s an article about world’s largest producer of one form of lithium ore:

http://www.talison.com.au/pdfs/Talison_shifts_full_focus_to_lithium.pdf

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truthguy Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

It saddens me to no end to see the situation with Bolivia. I want to see Bolivia prosper as a nation. Lithium could play a role in the advancement of their economy. However I believe Bolivia will go in the same direction of so many other South American countries with their resources. They will have a corrupt centralized government run Lithium company. The politicians/crooks will be in charge. The money will come into this company and it will be dispersed through a “spoils” system. There will be no banking system that would put real capital into the hands of business that could move the country forward. Money will be wasted on govenment works projects-run no doubt by the cronies of the govenment run company. I can almost bet this is what will develop with lithium. This has been the pattern for South America for so long.

I would hope that they would look at Chile as a model but I fear they will go the Venezuela route. Let’s hope that we find more lithium deposits in others parts of the world that are not in a corrupt system.

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SteveK Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:34 pm

Lithium is special (take a look in General Chemistry textbook) and #42 is correct. Lithium shortages or cartels are not going to be a concern. The key resource is energy, not the battery material. Nuclear is the way to go on that, in my opinion (no shortage of U either).

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drivin98 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

I’m tired of all the peak lithium stories cutting loose every couple of months. These is currently an oversupply of the stuff and will be for the next few years. Actually allow me to insert an “expert’s response to a similar story.

[quote]
In my presentation at the Santiago conference to which reference has been made earlier, I tabulated lithium resources totaling approximately 30.0 million tonnes equivalent to approximately 160,0 million tonnes of lithium carbonate-the primary feedstock for the lithium chemicals used in lithium-ion batteries. Presentations subsequent to mine increased the tonnage and other estimates by SQM and in a paper to which I made reference had somewhat higher figures.
Of my total, 17.6 million tonnes occur in Salar-type continental brines as are found in Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, China and Tibet, 7.65 million tonnes in pegmatites, 1.7 million tonnes in geothermal and oil field brines, 2.0 million tonnes in the clay mineral Hectorite and 0.85 million tonnes in a newly discovered boron/lithium mineral named Jadarite.
Of the brines the largest resource is in the Salar de Atacama, Chile, (the world’s current leading source of lithium) with 6.9 million tonnes.
The Salar de Uyuni is the second largest brine source. This occurrence receives massive publicity but, in fact, contains only 18% of the world’s resources. It is not the “Saudi Arabia of Lithium” and the large scale use of lithium ion batteries is not in any way dependent upon its development. It could possibly become a significant source of supply but in all respects it is inferior to the Salar de Atacama and some other salares.
Pegmatites are widely distributed throughout the world and suggestions have been made that switching to spodumene as a source for chemical production would result in a major increase in prices. Most Chinese production currently is from spodumene at costs estimated at about $2.00/lb using domestic ores and concentrates imported from Western Australia. A former North Carolina producer estimates that production from there currently would be at about $2.50/lb for carbonate.
These are higher than Chilean costs but if a massive demand materializes they can be readily absorbed by the battery industry where lithium costs represent 3-5% of the total battery cost. At current carbonate prices a vehicle requiring, for example, 6.6/lbs in a hybrid would contain lithium costing $20 in a battery selling for many thousands of dollars.
Regarding the statement concerning “untested technologies for lithium recoveries” Western Lithium appear confident that their hectorite project will be viable as does Simbol Mining with its process for geothermal and other possible brines. The Jadarite deposit in Serbia appears to be a uniquely attractive resource.
Of the various sources a question mark must remain on the viability of recovery from Smackover Formation oil field brines but in my tabulation it represents only 2.5% of the listed resources.
Comment by R. Keith Evans – February 5, 2009 at 11:42 pm [/quote]

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:39 pm

statik says: I look forward to Bolivia having the world’s tallest bulding.

Hit the nail on the head. Bolivia will probably consult energy / commodity experts from around the world as to how to maximize the value of their natural resources, just as Dubai has.

Check out the Burj Dubai wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_dubai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BurjDubaiHeight.png

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vincent Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 2:44 pm

I think we could have purchased Bolivia with just part of the bail out money.

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Noah Nehm Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 3:08 pm

This topic is a bit of a red herring – the reserve figures are not terribly up-to-date, an exclude some rather large deposits:

Older reserves figures don’t include, for example, the Kings Valley in Nevada, a mine that’s now expected to produce 25 billion pounds of lithium carbonate. That’s what many “peak lithium” advocates claim the world’s entire reserves of lithium comprise because they don’t include the deposit at all, despite the fact that 173 boreholes to a depth of 40 meters over 80,000 acres determined an average lithium content of 0.279% and a commercial recovery factor of 85%. This is just one mine we’re talking about, and that’s enough lithium carbonate to produce the cells for almost 800 million 10kWh (Aptera-sized) battery packs.

And, btw, if the lithium price spikes due to a supply/demand imbalance, I can guarantee we’ll see the development of alternatives, like, for example, the Sodium-Ion battery.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 3:42 pm

I wonder if Pelosi thinks 800 million battery packs would be enough?

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Arch Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2009/2/4/155651/8305/

Take Care
Arch

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carcus1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 4:11 pm

#33 BobW,

According to the Argonne National Laboratories, materials costs seem to be 90% the cost to manufacture a Lithium Ion battery. Lithium seems to be about 30% of the cost of the materials.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/149.pdf
_______________________________________________________

Excellent link, thanks for that.

If I’m reading the paper correctly, it looks that, of the four, (Cobalt, Nickel, Manganese,Lithium) cobalt is the element most likely to drive battery prices up.

But LG Chem doesn’t use Cobalt for the cathode,(?)
From GreenCarCongress:

“The LG Chem cells use a proprietary lithium manganese spinel (LiMn2O4) material for the cathode”
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/01/gm-to-manufactu.html

I don’t have a list of sources, but I did hunt around on Lithium availability for a couple of hours a while back. From what I read, Lithium shortage did not seem to be a concern.

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carcus1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:02 pm

If Morales had his way, Bolivia’s #1 white powdery export probably wouldn’t be Lithium.

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Van Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:09 pm

Every 3 months or so, the urban myth that there will not be enough lithium resurfaces. Like Estor, these myths inhibit the development of lithium battery production facilities.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

#16 User Name,

I’m not talking about Bolivia’s national parks!!

What I am saying is if an American Company came to Boliva and bought land along with mineral rights, someone in Bolivia certainly accepted their money.

Now all of a sudden you think that those rights should be revoked because the minerals have more value than what was originally thought. So I guess nationalization (i.e. theft) is okay in your book.

Perhaps we could do that in Hawaii and take all the property back from the Japanese.

Yes, I understand your morality.

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Dan Petit Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:40 pm

I don’t think Bolivia or any other country ought to get too excited about having lots of Lithium. As the story lists 410.000 tons of Lithium in the US as estimated, someone ought to extrapolate how many decades that ought to last the Lithium Ion battery industry here in the US (when it gets fired up), at a production rate, of, say, 10 million Volts a year.
After 15 years, when recycling ought to be kicking-in sufficiently to facilitate recycling needs, relatively-meager amounts of Lithium might be needed to be purchased outside of the continental US to supplement needed supplies, apparently.
Dan Petit Austin TX

(Quote)
Zach Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pm

News:
United States invades Bolivia. President calls the invasion an act of national security.

I’ll miss the good ‘ol Bush days, lol.

Those Bolivians better set up some mines and shit real quick, otherwise there is a new technology that’s going to come out and we’re going to skip Li-Ion and those fools are going to fall another 50 years behind the industrialized nations and their technology.

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Zero X Owner Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

1. Lithium is an energy CARRIER which does not get used up in its function to STORE energy and can be reused repeatedly and recycled, while oil is a fuel SOURCE that once used become unusable again (disappears to human use) forever.

2. Lithium is one of MANY energy carriers, with efficiency advances and new carriers being developed all of the time, which can use renewable energy sources. Oil is one of FEW liquid fuels available, its low cost economic recovery has already peaked and it is nonrenewable. If lithium supply becomes constrained, we can very easily switch to other energy carriers. As low cost economic oil supply dwindles in long term time, there are no low cost oil (liquid fuel) substitutes.

3. The US has domestic supplies of both oil and lithium. Using world (including domestic) lithium for a period of time, while we develop other energy carriers and more domestic renewable energy, gets us IMMEDIATELY off of imported oil and sending our oil $ overseas, where it leaks into funding our enemies, driving up our military and other government costs.

4. Everyone else here already covered all this better than I did. I’m just singing with the choir. Oh yeah, Chevy Volt is part of the solution, as it doesn’t care what energy carrier (lithium or not) or direct/indirect fuel source (gasoline, diesel, natural gas, compressed air (ya, uses some other energy source to compress it, I know, so as bad as the h word), etc.) it uses, can be flexible and omnivorous on both. Yay, electric drive.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 6:06 pm

Some people here should stock up on lithium for personal consumption.

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John C. Briggs Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 6:15 pm

http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

Karen Pease’s article claims that we should not be too worried about lithium shortages. If lithium gets short, it can be extracted from seawater.

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Roger Dawtry Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 6:31 pm

I pert near sure that Bolivia is owned by the British or the Americans,
therefore should be fairly easy to confiscate said resource.

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ccombs Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 6:32 pm

#6 — is that a Star Wars reference?

If so….
Eeeeexcellent.

Ps. Bolivia does not really concern me. They’ll sell their lithium if it makes them money. I am not too concerned with enriching the bolivians. Not many terrorists there

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Gas Electric Volt Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 7:42 pm

I say recycle all cell phone & lap top Li batteries – or just liberate Bolivia…

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Dave G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 8:37 pm

3 points:

1) Bolivia’s Lithium belongs to Bolivia, right up until the time they sell it to us.

2) Large Li/Ion car batteries will be recycled. Once we have enough Lithium to power our vehicles, we won’t need anymore. So there’s no long-term addiction here.

3) While other battery technologies may be developed in the future, it’s important to realize that Lithium will do the job today, so there’s no need to wait.

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Dave G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

#59 Zero X Owner Says: “As low cost economic oil supply dwindles in long term time, there are no low cost oil (liquid fuel) substitutes.”
————————————————————————————–
Coskata’s cellulosic gasification process produces ethanol for $1 per gallon.
http://www.coskata.com

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Dave G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 8:49 pm

#58 Zach Says: “United States invades Bolivia. President calls the invasion an act of national security.”
————————————————————————————–
The CIA has confirmed that Bolivia is developing weapons of mass destruction.

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Jason G Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

All non scientists should really stick to whatever it is you do for a living, some of these comments are embarassing.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 9:25 pm

Generic lithium is fine for batteries. We don’t need that good stuff from Bolivia.

=D~

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nuclearboy Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 9:37 pm

If Bolivian rulers are smart, they will sell as many mineral rights as they can to western corporations to raise cash. Any good two-bit south american president needs cash. Once these western companies pour billions more into the country to develop the resource and the means of extraction and delivery, El-presidente can order the mines seized by the Govt for the good of the people.

Its good to be king.

Lets hope we have many more choices then Lithium in the next 10 years.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 9:39 pm

#63 ccombs,

The phrase “the spice must flow” is from the book/movie “Dune”.

It’s a sci-fi story set about 8000 years into the future, and the spice enhances life, gives some ESP, special powers, and so forth, and allows a select group of intellectuals to “fold space” so that travel across the galaxy (light years away) is possible.

The spice is only found on one planet, and its control is one of the central themes of the movie.

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BillR1 Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 9:45 pm

#67 Dave G

I can hear the war campaign slogan now….

“Remember Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid”

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Van Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

Lets see, the story goes that because Boliva does not want to sell lithium to the USA, that casts a shadow over the Volt. Nonsense.
Boliva will sell to someone making batteries and therefore lithium from other countries will become available to battery makers supplying us. It is a blip.

(Quote)
Red HHR Says:
February 7th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

What is this is fable? We have a thread concocted from a New York Times story? Did they not propagate the WMD theory and then blame Bush?

Anyway the Lithium is owned 20% by the person or organization with the most lawyers. The other 80% is owned by the lawyers.

Red HHR (Hording all salt shakers in the back)

(Quote)
GM supporter Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 12:02 am

To bring Detroit to the top, do the following:
1). Increase sales tax of automobile (foreign brands) to 40%. Encourage Detroit to build vehicles with the highest margins and discourage them from investing in any long-term projects which produce little or no return.
2). Use superior forces to conquer Iran, Bolivia, Chile and accept Ukraine, Georgia, and other former soviet satellites into NATO.
3). Fire all foreign born scientists and engineers (especially those who are the top, because they are most dangerous), ban foreign nationals from gaining financial support at US Universities and increase their tuition to 300% of normal range and prohibit any foreign nationals from getting scientific/engineering jobs, and instead, let them work for and destroy crap companies such as Tata, Maruti, BYD or Chery and so the jobs are left for Americans, and Americans only (their salary will be doubled within 6 months, resulting in bigger purchase power).
4). Ban federal support of any scientific projects that does not produce results/returns within 24 month. Disintegrate useless organizations such as NIH, NSF, DARPA.
5). Import labors from the south, but prohibit them from earning a salary more than $2 per hour.
6). Imprison anyone who buy any foreign made products worth more than $200 per item. Increase importation tax to 200%.
7). Establish Dept. of American Worker Rights (DAWR) to enforce labor law.

Please visit our website and support America.

http://www.americanworker.org/

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Tom Harwick Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 4:59 am

Dage G wrote:

#59 Zero X Owner Says: “As low cost economic oil supply dwindles in long term time, there are no low cost oil (liquid fuel) substitutes.”
————————————————————————————–
Coskata’s cellulosic gasification process produces ethanol for $1 per gallon.
http://www.coskata.com
———————————————————–
Dave, do you not have any skepticism at all? All they did was put up a site saying they have a cost TARGET of $1 gallon. They do not offer any ethanol for sale at that price or any price. They do not cite any production figures.

There is no press coverage of a source of ethanol for $1 per gallon. This is another scam like super capacitors and air powered cars whose business model is not to make and sell a product, but simply to attract investments. The Green Bernie Madoff?

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 7:53 am

#76 Tom Harwick Says: “There is no press coverage of a source of ethanol for $1 per gallon.”
————————————————————————————–
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4248759.html
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1286/
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/with-gm-deal-in-hand-coskata-promises-1-ethanol-483.html
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/28/coskata-not-the-only-company-claiming-1-gallon-cellulosic-ethan/

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:04 am

#76 Tom Harwick Says: “All they did was put up a site saying they have a cost TARGET of $1 gallon.”
————————————————————————————–
“The $25 million plant in Madison, Pa., will make 40,000 gallons per year. At that size, it’s meant to demonstrate the process at commercial scale. Its plans also call for a full-scale facility, producing 50 million gallons to 100 million gallons a year of ethanol, by 2011. ”

“General Motors, Khosla Ventures, and Advanced Technology Partners are investors.”

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html

(Quote)
GM Volt Fan Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:09 am

I love the articles I’m reading on the internet about battery research. No doubt about it. Lots of brainpower is about to get VERY focused on automotive batteries. They might be working on technologies that don’t use any lithium or will make it so much less of it is needed in each battery pack. The name of the game is “bang for the buck” in energy storage technology.

http://www.freep.com/article/20090208/BUSINESS07/902080380/Stimulus+likely+to+fuel+battery+research+efforts

I like this part of the article:

“We see it as a huge opportunity, and there is huge interest on our campuses,” said Tobin Smith, a lobbyist for the Washington-based association. “I’m very optimistic. You have an administration coming in that says it’s important.”

“Energy and climate could be our Sputnik challenge, a new way to infuse our best talent into our science and technology system,” said Maria Zuber, a professor of geophysics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, testifying before the House on Jan. 7.”

America’s battery scientists and engineers are about to see some badly needed money come their way to accelerate what they’ve been doing. I hope the government gets the money to all the right people and they make the most of every dime of research money available. America needs to get on the cutting edge and STAY THERE. The government DOES play a big role in getting new technologies going. They did it in the early years with the Internet. Now they need to do it again with energy storage technologies.

(Quote)
NZDavid Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:32 am

At first I could not decide whether to cry, or bash my head against a wall, then I came across Statiks brilliant commentary I don’t understand this thread at all. It is my understanding no lithium at all is used in EEStor technology…so who cares?

So after taking a deep breath, and converting the 410,000 [short US]tons to pounds, 820,000,000. Then converting that to Lithium Carbonate ~4,100,000,000 pounds. Then allowing, say, 30 pounds per Volt we have 136,666,666 16kWh batteries. Folks, it IS NOT AN ISSUE. Ooops, sorry, started shouting then.

Seriously though, Lithium is the 12th most common element we have!

PS: The United States Geological Survey ONLY counts what they consider to be commercial deposits, which is why as one poster Noah Nehm @50showed, the Kings Valley in Nevada, a mine that’s now expected to produce 25 billion pounds of lithium carbonate. That’s what many “peak lithium” advocates claim the world’s entire reserves of lithium comprise because they don’t include the deposit at all, despite the fact that 173 boreholes to a depth of 40 meters over 80,000 acres determined an average lithium [carbonate] content of 0.279% [.0558% Li] doesn’t get counted at all. The South American brines range from .18% Li Chile, to 0.035% Li Bolivia, (The Salar de Uyuni floods every year) and they are on the surface.

http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/2008/03/chile.html
http://lithiumabundance.blogspot.com/2008/03/bolivia.html

As a very wise man once said. Lets just get the Volt wheels on the road all 136 million of them!!!!

/sigh. There is (banging head against wall) NO shortage of lithium.
/ So can we talk about H2 now Lyle?

//Tagamet, brother, I need a couch quick!

(Quote)
Red HHR Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:45 am

#75, GM supporter,

Is that part of the Obama package? Ha Ha….
Oh well we will see what happens. I am hoping for windmills and such. We are going to get stuck with something.

As far as the perceived problem with the supply of Lithium, The roads here in New England are paved with the stuff. Why I just saw a truck spreading the stuff on the road by my house.

The real news comes in nine days with The bailout/loan plan. How will GM survive, and what part will the Volt play….

Speaking of the Volt, where are the sightings…
Or has it become a top secret (dark) project?

Red HHR (Now Lithium White)

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:52 am

#79 GM Volt Fan Says: “No doubt about it. Lots of brainpower is about to get VERY focused on automotive batteries.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, I agree.

Also, the brain power focus at each stage of development is very different. There are 3 phases to bring any new technology to market.
1) Research
2) Development
3) Mass Production

Large Li/Ion car batteries are still in phase 2. They haven’t really started the cost optimization phase yet.

Once production volume ramps up significantly, manufacturing engineers become extremely motivated to lower costs, as this justifies their pay. But for products with lower production volumes, the cost savings are much less, which means fewer and less talented manufacturing engineers.

Bottom line: Once cars with large Li/Ion batteries start selling in significant numbers, manufacturing engineers will find ways of making Li/Ion batteries for much, much less than they cost now.

(Quote)
Zach Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 9:35 am

#67 Dave G,

Thanks man! I’m glad someone responded to me

Gave me a good laugh!

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 12:06 pm

Bottom line: Once cars with large Li/Ion batteries start selling in significant numbers…
_______________________________

How many is “significant numbers” ?

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

Bolivia is in a great deal of political turmoil at the moment. Check the NYT for some recent stories. My own source is BBC radio broadcasts, and have reported things that the NYT has not yet picked up on.

(Quote)
ElectRich Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 12:40 pm

Another poor attempt at raising fears about lithium shortages. Comparing Lithium to gas is mote. A modern lithium battery should outlast the vehicle. Once the Battery is recycled the Lithium can be re-used. Not like gasoline which is gone into the air as pollutants. Actually by current estimates the earth’s crust has more lithium than copper. Just a little less than estimated Helium. It is harder to extract but it is abundant. The current estimate from January 2008 USGS survey that author used is amount in reserve base. There are millions of tonnes being sat on by chevron and other corporations in the US. North Carolina and Nevada have multiple untapped sites. If Lithium does start to fall behind in production world wide. US sources can be used. Canada is also a large supplier of Lithium.

(Quote)
James E Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 2:30 pm

#8 Starcast: Do you work for the Oil industry?

Go into a parking garage and try to breath that pungent air emitting from the ICE! Every time I drive down into LA I see the pollution and then when I get there I have problems breathing. You cannot deny that is caused by the ICE. Go ahead and keep dumping you money into the Middle East, I will not!

Only one year to go and I will have my ERV or straight EV.

NPNS!

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 2:45 pm

ThombDbhomb (#60):

“Some people here should stock up on lithium for personal consumption.”

When I made this comment in another thread, you particularly did not find it very funny.

I guess it all comes down to context, and what one person believes, not the joke itself (I was knocking HCGW, as I recall).

(Quote)
Jackson Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

“Go into a parking garage and try to breath that pungent air emitting from the ICE! Every time I drive down into LA I see the pollution and then when I get there I have problems breathing.”

Human Caused Global Warming or not, there’s still “Old Fashioned” air pollution to consider. I would welcome cleaner air regardless of who’s (or what’s) hand is on the thermostat.

(Quote)
Zero X Owner Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

Dave G:

Fair enough, you are making the argumat more sophisticated. I was trying to keep it simple to robustly show that there are and will be no supply constraints of lithium. Use of ethanol as well, as you suggest, would also lower total lithium demand, so that supports my argument. Thanks.

Quibble:
If ethanol is less than half the cost of currently low price gasoline, why aren’t we already using 100% ethanol today? Something stinks in Denmark. Actual pump average ethanol prices, $1.74, sez you are wrong for now. Reality check: http://www.e85prices.com/. Whether you are wrong forever remains to be seen. Only the future will tell. But certainly ethanol will be in the mix and will reduce lithium demand, which supports my argument of no lithium constraints.

(Quote)
Zero X Owner Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

Jackson

Good point. We need to knock off human caused global warming, just in case we are doing it. If we are not, no harm, no foul to take the precaution anyway, get some efficiency gains off of it, be able to save money by using cheaper power (domestic electric versus imported oil), keep our oil $ in this country, stop indirectly funding terrorism and use our military more efficiently. Kind of a win-win-win-win-win-win-win here, regardless of your stance on HCGW, so why even bring it up?

(Quote)
Mark Wagner Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

This piece raises a good point, but a battery material is not the same thing as a consumable fuel.

While we do expect a huge potential demand for lithium, it is not going to be burned and consumed endlessly. Materials from old electric car batteries will need to be recycled and re-used — unlike oil.

(Quote)
AFRanger Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 4:31 pm

To expand on what #92 was getting at, Li+ and ethanol are used for two very different purposes. In the simplest of terms, ethanol is a GASOLINE substitute while Li+ is a GAS TANK substitute. Therefore, I can’t really see a way in which demand for one would affect the other, except perhaps if they trended together as the market either increasingly sought out or cast aside homegrown/greener transportation solutions.

(Quote)
Zero X Owner Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

AFRanger

I suggest you reread your Economics 001 textbook again and try some more. I made the same distinction you and post #92 did, but way back in post #59. Thanks for agreeing with me. Since the thread is now going in circles, I declare it done. Ding!

(Quote)
Pragmatic Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 5:50 pm

#86

True. There are some people who believe that journalism is an exercise in fomenting fear and gossip. These folks spend each waking moment trying to create disturbing scenarios of mayhem, loss, limitation and chaos. It is a disease. This mindset is not comfortable with light, providence or abundance. They seek to annihilate those things and in their absence usher the terrified lemmings closer to the cliff.

Do not believe it. There is plenty of lithium carbonate, readily accessible in the U.S. and Canada. We do not have to create another Saudi. And it is recyclable. Wow! Hard to find terror in that. And by the time lithium carbonate might become an issue – expect to see newer chemistry and physics that produce and store energy at lower costs than Li-ion. The future is dim only to those whose vision is… dim.

(Quote)
BillR1 Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 7:59 pm

Looks like things are starting to heat up in Bolivia already!

http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20090208/498e74e0_3ca6_1552620090208-917588490

(Quote)
Bolivia Can Become the Saudi Arabia of Lithium | GM-VOLT : Chevy … Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Dave G Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:46 pm

#90 Zero X Owner Says: “If ethanol is less than half the cost of currently low price gasoline, why aren’t we already using 100% ethanol today?”
————————————————————————————–
Coskata says they can make ethanol for a $1/gallon. That is their cost. It doesn’t mean it will sell at the pump for $1/gallon. You still need to:
1) Add Coskata’s profit
2) Transport the raw ethanol to a refinery
3) Combine with additives and blend it to E85
4) Transport the E85 to local filling stations
5) Add the local filling station’s overhead and profit

So ethanol that costs $1/gallon to make will probably sell as E85 for a around $2/gallon.

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

_____________________________________________________
#61 John C. Briggs Says:

http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

Karen Pease’s article claims that we should not be too worried about lithium shortages. If lithium gets short, it can be extracted from seawater.
——————-

Wow…that blog article by Karen Pease is absolutely brilliantly written. Thanks John C. for that link find.
______________________________________________________

(Quote)
Matthew_B Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 11:13 pm

#10: “There is something like 50 million vehicles sold annually. If each battery requires 100 pounds or lithium, this would only last 2 years.”

Your weight number is high by about a factor of 5. It’s closer to 20lbs per vehicle for the Volt. Very little of the weight of a lithium battery is lithium since the density of lithium is so low.

Of course not every vehicle on the road is instantly going to be a R-EV, so it’s not going to be anywhere near 50 million a year.

(Quote)
CDAVIS Says:
February 9th, 2009 at 12:31 am

______________________________________________________
#61 John C. Briggs
http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

Karen Pease’s article claims that we should not be too worried about lithium shortages. If lithium gets short, it can be extracted from seawater.”

————-
Wow. That Karen Pease blog article is brilliantly written! Thank you John C. for that link.
_____________________________________________________

(Quote)
Zero X Owner Says:
February 9th, 2009 at 12:34 am

Dave G

Since E85 sells for $1.74 a gallon, sourced in the link I already gave you, the selling price of $2.00 a gallon E85 that you estimate sounds like a total loser. What’s the feedstock – corn? My original points still stand intact, regardless of what ethanol comes on line at any price through the medium term, although feedstock details do matter.

Next.

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Pragmatic Says:
February 9th, 2009 at 8:45 pm

It is funny to read Karen’s article utterly destroying any fears of “peak lithium” in light of the gloomy overview of this article. With so much new energy technology on the way – the idea of collapsing economies, cataclysmic climate and resource wars is laughable. But this should serve as a heads up for gullible believers of gloom and doom. If the non-event that is “lithium scarcity” is an example, other alarmist claims contain about as much substance.

Since journalism has become the twisted playground of behavior modification – whenever you hear of a crisis – take it with half a grain of salt. That’s the hole the alarmists have dug for themselves. With a little honest research, an open mind and a refusal to be dictated to – you’ll quickly discover that the gloom and doomers are more like galactic hypochondriacs. Happy to spin puritanical tales of impending doom and apocalypse because your FEAR feeds their bleak souls. Don’t let it happen. It’s pure…

Poppycock!

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