Feb 01

GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor

 

Many here have heard of EEStor, they are the secretive Texas company reportedly working on a novel energy storage unit (EESU) that has several times the energy density of lithium-ion batteries at a fraction of the cost, and with a functionally infinite lifespan.  These EESUs are made with aluminum oxide-coated barium titanate powder and act similar to ultracapcitors with the ability to charge in minutes if enough current is available.  Despite their remarkable potential especially for use in electric cars, no known working prototypes have ever been observed or reported.

Denise Gray is GM’s director of advanced batteries and is principally involved in development of the Volt’s batteries. I had the chance to ask her what she knew about EEStor and whether their was any kind of relationship between EEStor and GM.

Have your heard of EEStor?
Yes.

Have you ever communicated with them?
Oh Yes, Yes Yes.  One of the great things about the advanced battery technology community is lots of information comes to GM and I’m really in a very good position (because) we’ve left an open door with many different suppliers.  And EEStor is one of those suppliers who often sends us information.  We’re willing to evaluate what they have and provide information on what our portfolio of higher batteries needs are, so that as they hone in on their technology they recognize what that end game is all about.

So Yes, they are one of those suppliers that we frequently get information from.

Have they sent you any working prototypes?
We’re still waiting for some of that information to come through to us.  They’ve provided us some literature.

So you haven’t seen a working prototype?
I would just say quite frankly that we are encouraging them to develop along those lines.  I probably shouldn’t say if I’ve received parts or not, that’s kind of confidential.  But we are in touch with them and we are continuing to encourage them to develop the technology.  Because we need as much help as we can possibly get to get the costs down of our battery solution and get the reliability up.

So maybe one day we’ll see an EEStor-powered Volt?
Anything’s possible.

Our friend Hank Green, Editor-in-chief of EcoGeek.org happened to film me asking Denise these questions. You can see that below:

[flash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKoruPRd4TQ]

This entry was posted on Sunday, February 1st, 2009 at 8:47 am and is filed under Battery, EEStor. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 120


  1. 1
    Alex Besogonov

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:00 am)

    So…

    Nothing new so far?


  2. 2
    pdt

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:01 am)

    I could send GM some literature. It could be fiction, a poem, or just a nice note.


  3. 3
    Shawn Marshall

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:04 am)

    Sounds like GM got a sample of the material.

    Not very comfortable with her remarks about getting the reliability up.

    Denise may be going to the woodshed.


  4. 4
    BillR1

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:13 am)

    It always pays to keep an open mind.

    However, GM will want to buy a well-proven product, not prototypes. It would seem that this technology, even if it can actually meet its projections, won’t be ready for automotive applications anytime in the near future.


  5. 5
    mark

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:14 am)

    I thought EEStor had some sort of exclusive contract with that small electric car company in Canada?


  6. 6
    Gas Electric Volt

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:15 am)

    Lyle,

    Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to determine if Denise has received something more than just a stack of paper.

    Godspeed
    ___________________________________________________________

    Gen II Volt w/ an EESU ? Maybe a $20k isn’t looking so unprobable afterall…


  7. 7
    kent beuchert

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:23 am)

    Anyone who wants to invest in EEStor technology must do so indirectly, since EEStor is not a publicly traded corporation.
    ZENN Motors is the most direct (indirect) way to do so since they have a stake in EESotr and, more importantly, have the exclusive rights to market any EEStor devices destined for either a new vehicle less than 3100 pounds, or a used vehicle being retrofitted for electric drive. ZENN Motors sees their main business as providing the EESTor devices and electric drive components for other automakers, rather than trying to become another Toyota, although they are planning to produce a small electric car using the devices.
    ZENN Motors is a Canadian company, trading (at the moment) on the Canadian stock exchange.


  8. 8
    kent beuchert

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:24 am)

    If EESTor works as claimed, game’s over – all lithium ion people can go home and look for new jobs.


  9. 9
    Joe

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:33 am)

    I don’t think all lithium ion will be gone in regards to electric cars. I think both technologies could work together. I think it has a great potential of both being used.


  10. 10
    Dave B

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:39 am)

    kent beuchert @ 7-8,

    How many deadlines has EESTor missed in disclosing working prototypes, even of a Zenn Motors vehicle? Please do not sugguest to people to dump their cash into the Canadian stock exchange to indirectly invest in this next Google-esque company.


  11. 11
    RemiS

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:42 am)

    Mark, Yes, this is Zenn

    http://www.zenncars.com/

    Very Good New


  12. 12
    akojim

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:50 am)

    Q: “Have they sent you any working prototypes?”
    A: “Sent?”

    Q: “So you haven’t seen a working prototype?”
    A: “Seen?”

    Q: “So maybe one day we’ll see an EEStor-powered Volt?”
    A: “I would just say quite frankly that we are encouraging people to continue expecting to someday see a Volt, but beyond that everything is kind of confidential.”

    Ya just gotta love it!


  13. 13
    Exuma

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:50 am)

    Folks ought to be careful about reacting. One has to expect that, if Eestor is real, then all major car manufacturers must have a look. If that is so, then Zenn is in a sweet position. If, if, if …..


  14. 14
    vincent

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:10 am)

    Don’t you just love the “transparency” of where, on what and how “All of Our” bail out money is being used.


  15. 15
    statik

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:18 am)

    “I probably shouldn’t say if I’ve received parts or not, that’s kind of confidential.”
    —your funny Denise

    “Q:So maybe one day we’ll see an EEStor-powered Volt?
    “A: Anything’s possible.”
    —and all the children of the world would join hands and sing together in the spirit of harmony and peace

    Hey Denise,
    What of Zenn’s exclusive agreement with EEStor for automotive applications of their product? How does that sit with you?

    PS) I love EEStor posts, thanks Lyle! Keep them coming, I enjoy threads we can all come together to belittle something in unison


  16. 16
    RB

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:21 am)

    #8 kent beuchert says
    If EESTor works as claimed, game’s over – all lithium ion people can go home and look for new jobs.
    ————————————————————

    Let’s calm down a bit. The way capacitors work has been known for more than a hundred years. Ultracapacitors, which are just ordinary capacitors made of special material, have been around for a couple of decades, with gradually improving characteristics. As far as I know, there is as of now not a single laptop computer that is powered by ultracapacitors, because they are complex to use as compared to batteries. It is not to say that it will not happen, but we are not right on the precipice of any dramatic miracle — at best there is a slow and complicated development path ahead.


  17. 17
    George K

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:42 am)

    So what does 30,693 farads mean?, compared to a 16 kWh battery?


  18. 18
    Biodieseljeep

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:50 am)

    Rang out of vaporware haikus so long ago, it ain’t funny.

    Eestor…PUUU LEEEEEASE!


  19. 19
    statik

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:03 am)

    #8 kent beuchert

    If EESTor works as claimed, game’s over – all lithium ion people can go home and look for new jobs.
    ===============================

    I would gladly accept the loss of a ‘lithium ion people’ (plus a lot more) if their product is real.

    Lets go down the foxhole here…and just for a moment assumed what EEStor says they have is real. According to them, they wil be able to mass produce a 52kWh pack for about $2,100, no degradation, 6 minute charge time…the whole thing weighs 330 pounds.

    If EEStor could produce what they claim, it would be the single greatest invention since…since, I don’t know what. It would almost instantaneously and simultaneously solve many of the world’s problems…and create many more at the same time.

    It would also displace many more, and larger things than just the ‘lithium ion people.’ It would be the end of the North American automanufacturing business, and most of the domestic suppliers with them…their money is made on premiums, and a tech like this would collapse the system.

    It would also virtually end the dependence on foreign oil…but more than that, it would send several countries back to the stone ages (Kuwait, Nigeria, Algeria, etc), and it would throw some countries into civil war (Russia, Venezuela, Iran, etc), other countries would struggle to pick up that lost revenue stream (Saudi Arabia, Norway, Mexico, etc).

    Domestically, it would also dramatically eat up revenue streams for our government very quickly, lost from the corporate/personal tax base forever. It would also put pressure on infrastructure, and surely it would be the final nail (and collapse) of the Federal Highway Trust Fund.

    The problem with this one product, is in its promise. It is such a giant leap, it renders a HUGE part of the world’s economy (with many layers and levels) obsolute…and replaces it with a much, much more efficient, easy solution. ie) 1 ‘new’ job eliminates 50 old ones, one $1,000 EEStor battery displaces $30,000 of old revenues.

    Thousands of other things would change too (electrical infrastructure, raw material industries like coal, natural gas, etc).

    Countries would wake up and find their place and social status in the world had changed. Basically, the world would have to re-invent itself.

    /personally, I would welcome the pain, because it is the good kind…the kind that eventually would bring positive change, to both people and the environment
    //and it is still total BS
    ///happy…no delighted to be wrong


  20. 20
    Arch

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:08 am)

    There is a place for this technology. One big problem with regenerative braking is that the battery can not accept that big of a charge in a short span of time. Caps can. The other killer for electric cars is stop and go driving. Accelerating a car chews up a lot of battery power. Now if they can figure out a system so that when they stop or slow down a cap gets the charge and then releases it upon accelerating they will have a winner. JMHO

    Take Care
    Arch


  21. 21
    canehdian

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:09 am)

    George K, 17
    So what does 30,693 farads mean?, compared to a 16 kWh battery?

    Farads are amp-seconds per volt
    If you round to 30k, and assume 12v(what do the modules run at?)
    You’d get 100 Ah, or about 1.2kWh (more like 1.23 if you don’t round the 30k)
    I also ask:
    Why would Gm even bother if zenn has an exclusive agreement?
    Aside from making like.. huge hummers..


  22. 22
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:28 am)

    #19 statik

    Countries would wake up and find their place and social status in the world had changed…

    ——————

    That’s the most heart-warming futurist prediction I’ve heard in a long time. Makes me proud to be an American!

    You forgot to add that the oil shieks may have to cancel construction of their super-cities in Dubai. Without the Trillions of U.S. Dollars flowing to the middle east, it looks like they’ll have to drink their oil.

    Good times. Good times.


  23. 23
    Tagamet

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:30 am)

    statik@15 said:
    “I probably shouldn’t say if I’ve received parts or not, that’s kind of confidential.”
    —your funny Denise
    “Q:So maybe one day we’ll see an EEStor-powered Volt?
    “A: Anything’s possible.”
    —and all the children of the world would join hands and sing together in the spirit of harmony and peace.

    Hey Denise,
    What of Zenn’s exclusive agreement with EEStor for automotive applications of their product? How does that sit with you?
    PS) I love EEStor posts, thanks Lyle! Keep them coming, I enjoy threads we can all come together to belittle something in unison”
    _____________________________________________________

    Re: your first paragraph: Hey, it could happen…..(g).

    And re the Zenn agreement, if they just want to be a “middle man” to make a buck (also possible), they should have built in the US. I know our corporate taxes discourage that, but given the “stimulus package” mentality here, they LITERALLY couldn’t fail.

    Patience isn’t a virtue typically associated with Americans (we pace in front of the microwave), but it sure is necessary when it comes to all of this emerging technology. Volt included.

    Be well,
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS Independence Day 2010


  24. [...] a pesar que su resurrecci


  25. 25
    Estero

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:08 pm)

    Thanks Lyle!

    If you get a chance, ask GM if they have a working relationship with Firefly Energy. There have been suggestions on several websites that a battery pack with an EESU on the anode side and Firefly Energy cells on the cathode side could really be a game changer!

    As someone else said, all those involved with lithium-ion battery packs could seek employment elsewhere.


  26. 26
    George K

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:08 pm)

    #21 canehdian
    Farads are amp-seconds per volt
    If you round to 30k, and assume 12v(what do the modules run at?)
    You’d get 100 Ah, or about 1.2kWh (more like 1.23 if you don’t round the 30k)
    - – - – - – - – - -
    Thanks. I know the Prius has 168 cells at 2.1 volts = 201.6 volt pack.

    Not sure about the Volt.

    =D~~~~


  27. 27
    Gary

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:13 pm)

    19 Statik: “The problem with this one product, is in its promise. It is such a giant leap, it renders a HUGE part of the world’s economy (with many layers and levels) obsolete…and replaces it with a much, much more efficient, easy solution. ie) 1 ‘new’ job eliminates 50 old ones, one $1,000 EEStor battery displaces $30,000 of old revenues.”

    Maybe this isn’t a good idea after all… :-( … But then again, Canada and the U.S. would become economic ultra super duper superpowers. :-)


  28. 28
    ccombs

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:36 pm)

    Wow…this was completely unexpected. It is all so ambiguous (understandably so) that I really can’t quite figure out what to make of it.

    and Static…LOL. Best post ever. However, as crazy as it sounds, there is some truth to the fact that many countries are going to be in a world of hurt if (well, more like “when” than “if”) oil no longer is King- especially since many have no other natural resources to speak of. I think some countries recognize this, which is why Saudi, for one, is trying to build up a high-tech economy.

    …crap, I gotta go. More on this topic later…


  29. 29
    D Lo

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:45 pm)

    #15 statik Says:
    Hey Denise,
    What of Zenn’s exclusive agreement with EEStor for automotive applications of their product? How does that sit with you?

    The exclusive agreement with Zenn is for LIGHT vehicles. If this technology can work in the way advertised–price and capacity–you can bet that GM (or others) would be applying it to mid-size and up cars. Since GM has a great deal of experience with electric motors, I don’t expect that they’ll be looking for any middle man in Zenn.


  30. 30
    vincent

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:45 pm)

    #19 in a nut shell why oil is back to affordable levels…they don’t want to loose power. That’s why the whole deal is a joke.

    Why does China have an electric car for 20K and a range of 300 miles…a 15 minute charge gives 50% battery charge…. Hmmmmm
    Amazingly rich oil companies with 45 Billion in profits for 2008 and that’s just one oil firm.

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/byd-electric-car-e6-crossover-mpv.php


  31. 31
    Jeff

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:49 pm)

    #19 Statik

    I love the predicted drama about the implications of an EESTOR success. I’m not denying that some this drama could unfold…but hopefully our elected officials can help keep the negative effects to a minimum. I’m not one for conspiracy theories…but it would be a mistake to bury the tech if it exists. A good question…what price for oil would it compete with an EESTOR equipped vehicle?

    Oil companies have LARGE profit margins….and would have to resturcture….but a market would still exist. I agree….the EASY profits would be gone which could be good for the world community…not just the USA for the long term. The current oil market has been accused of causing wars. What will be the next commodity to generate a war…fresh water maybe?

    As for taxes, the US government can be SLOW, but they would restructure transportation taxes as the percentage of “OIL FREE” on-the-road vehicles becomes significant.

    Cheap viable method to store electrical energy would mean tax incentives would disappear for so called “green vehicles”…and the introduction of a tax(es) on them. Some elected officials are careful to mention that current tax incentives are for early adopters.


  32. 32
    tom villars

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (12:57 pm)

    ZMC’s exclusive license is for cars under 1400 kg (3080 lbs) net the battery. Does anyone know the weight of a Volt minus the battery pack?

    Also the cost figure quoted above “52kWh pack for about $2,100″ is from the 2004 business plan. I think a more realistic estimate at this time is closer to $100 / kWh or $5,200 for a 52 kWh battery pack based on the information contained in the EESU trademark registered with the USPTO in 2007 and recently filed for an “Notice of Allowance” on Jan 20, 2009.

    http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/portal/tow?SRCH=Y&isSubmitted=true&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=77351352#

    http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/portal/tow?SRCH=Y&isSubmitted=true&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=77351352#


  33. 33
    ThombDbhomb

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (1:11 pm)

    #19 statik
    Regarding societal impacts of technological revolutions, it happens; bronze, electricity, automobiles, flight…

    When will “advancement” stop? How far will it go?


  34. 34
    statik

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (1:43 pm)

    RE:

    #22 Corvette Guy
    #23 Tag
    #27 Gary
    #28 ccombs
    #29 D Lo
    #31 Jeff
    #33 ThombDbhomb

    Wow, a lot of repsonse. It is a fun exercise on ‘what if,’ is it not? That being said, I wouldn’t want to get lost in too big of a hypothetical debate on it. I’m still of the opinion that I will see a unicorn before I see this come to fruition.

    #29 D Lo siad:

    “The exclusive agreement with Zenn is for LIGHT vehicles. If this technology can work in the way advertised–price and capacity–you can bet that GM (or others) would be applying it to mid-size and up cars. Since GM has a great deal of experience with electric motors, I don’t expect that they’ll be looking for any middle man in Zenn.”
    ==================
    Actually, it is tough to understand there deal exactly…however they do have exclusive rights for BOTH light and mid-size automotive applications…they paid 2.5 million for that right back in 2004 (way before anyone had a clue who EEStor was…and probably 2.5 million too much, lol).

    They also plugged in another 2.5 million, so I’m unsure what that second infusion of cash got them…who knows what Zenn’s stake is in EEStor atm, information does not exactly ‘flow’ out of their mouths. If the tech really takes off Zenn doesn’t even want to be a automaker, they want to be a component supplier.

    “Mr. Clifford plans to shift Zenn away from low-speed vehicles and focus on supplying electric drivetrains to auto makers. “The last thing we want to be is a car maker,” he says. “It’s more the Intel-inside model.” ”

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081127.caseIndex1202/BNStory/breakthrough


  35. 35
    Mark Bartosik

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (1:58 pm)

    Yep EESU could change the world in many ways, just like atomic physics has, but maybe more.

    There is of course a huge military utility to EESU. Think Star Wars type technology — laser canons etc. One of the huge problems with laser canon type weapons is the amount of burst energy required. EESU solves that.

    A world that does not need oil could be very different. Imagine this: countries buying oil in a quota scheme (like farm subsidies) just to reduce the chaos from oil producing countries falling apart.

    Idle thoughts on a Sunday afternoon. Better go do something useful.


  36. [...] Read the original: GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor | GM-VOLT : Chevy … [...]


  37. 37
    Dan Petit

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (2:41 pm)

    I recently received an email courtesy of GM Volt, which gave me a link to the EEStor patent which was dated December 16th, 2008.
    In reading the Abstract, I was motivated to continue on to slowly read (and print out) the remainder of the filing.
    While much of the content was initially beyond my vocabulary in high school advanced chemistry (in ancient times circa 1969), I’ve decided to re-read it to learn some of the terms which describe their processes so as to be able to clearly bring the invention into perspective (with the chemistry of A123 for example).
    While the energy storage physics of the A123 are highly admirable, the great thing about the A123 is that you have a depth of a specific *voltage*, which is easily relied-upon by a specifically-set-up electrical system, where you may be able to predict reliability factors based on known benchmarks of, say, MTBF, or “mean time before failure” of everything connected to it. That is what makes products marketable to warranties represented.
    With capacitors, you may be able to store more instantly a given source of energy, but retrieving it back out and at a more specific delivery range may be more tricky.
    One thing I have noticed in the wear patterns of some small vehicle hybrid drives, is that when the 12 volt battery goes bad from being old (3 Summers), that the 18.12 volt peak-charging module is not reliable in allowing for the consistency of resulting available voltage in the 12 volt system for the processors to function correctly. There are very wide-ranging voltages thus resulting, causing all kinds of processors to default to fixed settings, not adequately protecting anything controlled by them. (In some small hybrid drive vehicles).
    The point being that getting 2,500 volts to be usable for lower voltage systems all the way down to what processors need (four and a half volts), would require more hardware it seems to me, than just having an A123 array delivering a consistently-fixed and highly reliable source.
    In addition, the lead time from patent to product can be 4 to 5 more years which may be OK for 2015.
    However, the implications for storing solar, wind, and a buffer for tidal power may turn out to be extremely impressive as well. Although manufacturing descriptions in the patent seem to be fairly precise, they do not seem to be complicated. If even there comes about a working prototype, it would be a true benchmark, since the one thing that we do best is that we always are able to greatly improve productivity and manufacturing techniques.
    Dan Petit Austin TX


  38. 38
    robert

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (2:42 pm)

    Anyone want to buy a bridge?


  39. 39
    Big Picture

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (2:53 pm)

    EEstor, EEstor
    In the sky
    Drop a bunch of farads in my eye
    Me don’t sigh
    Me don’t cry
    Me just glad that
    Madoff didn’t lie


  40. 40
    texas

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:01 pm)

    Will the hype for EEscam ever die? I’m guessing that people want an electrical energy storage solution so badly that they are overlooking the obvious:

    1) No prototypes
    2) Missed every milestone
    3) Dismissed by every capacitor researcher
    4) Product, if real, would change the world as we know it
    5) No need to worry about all the bad news because this would be the solution

    Sorry, EEscam will not be your savior. They may take some of your money and provide you with some hope but that’s about the only significant product that will ship from them.


  41. 41
    omnimoeish

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:02 pm)

    If any auto maker in the world has seen a prototype besides ZENN, it would be GM since they are the biggest automaker in America and currently leading the pack in the EV revolution. It is entirely possible that GM has seen prototypes but seeings how EEStor is locked in contract with ZENN, they are probably not supposed to be having talks serious enough to be sharing test packs with anyone. Therefore, she can’t talk about it, aka “it’s confidential” as she said. I don’t know how long EEStor is stuck with ZENN, but I doubt it’s forever.

    Another reason this might be confidential is some type of military hush hushness to it. Lockheed is heavily backing EEStor and therefore you’ve got to figure the DoD is well aware. The government might be trying to figure out what problems could arise should this technology fall into the wrong hands. It’s possible they are trying to decide if this product should go mainstream yet or stay in the hands of just the Air Force or something. My gut tells me this is more likely than the first reason, but both make sense.

    The fact that EEStor technology is not available yet is a moot point since GM is locked in contract with LG Chem for the next 6 or 7 years to buy batteries from them anyway. With a game changing technology like EEStor is claiming, that’s more than enough in the light speed advancing electronics world to get this thing ready for prime time.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:10 pm)

    If I see the overly simplistic electrical diagram, showing 31,351 capacitors in parallel again, I may become ill!

    This just makes me think of something drawn on the back of a napkin, and has absolutely no real engineering data associated to it.

    Yes, a bunch of capacitors in parallel will add up to a large capacitance, since caps in parallel add arithmetically. But, thats about it.

    JMHO


  43. 43
    IFEESTORY

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:20 pm)

    http://www.ufto.com/clients-only/uftonotes04.html#Subject
    “May 5, 2004 UFTO Note – EEStor Ultracapacitor and Ultrabattery”, “A number of major companies have said they would issue a purchase order quickly if specs are met. The company is currently seeking equity investment of $3.5 million. A business plan is available. Contact Richard D. Weir, President and CEO EEStor, Inc. Cedar Park, TX 512-258-5669 dick_weir@eestor.us
    The above was submitted to the UFTO by none other than Dick Weir in May 5, 2004.

    Wake up Lyle. If you or anyone still believes in the EESTOR fairy tale, you can join the blogger with the bag over his head for a drink of kool aid.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:21 pm)

    #37 Petit

    “The point being that getting 2,500 volts to be usable for lower voltage systems all the way down to what processors need (four and a half volts), would require more hardware it seems to me,”
    ========================================================
    Huh?

    I was totally confused with what your post was trying to convey.
    Are you saying they are going to build linear voltage converter to convert 2,500 volts to 5 volts? Well, lets see. If I only need, say a couple amps @ 5 volts to run all my logic circuits, then the voltage drop across that converter would be 2,500 – 5 = 2,495 volts and at 2 amps thats 2* 2,495 = 4990 watts! That’s one HOT converter!

    So, they will use different methods, like just maintain a normal 12Volt battery, or build SMPS (switch mode power supply) that using transformers to divide the voltage down to a reasonable level (Likely to just have a normal car battery).

    My head spun several times as I read your post, so maybe I just misunderstood what your point was?


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:51 pm)

    Hey Statik!
    You’re the uncontested fiscal aficionado here, any idea what the profit margin Big Oil averages for, say, a decade?
    Thanks in advance,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS Independence Day 2010


  46. 46
    B

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (3:51 pm)

    Lyle,

    Great work here.

    Denise Gray makes it sound like GM is casually interested in EEStor. No disrespect, but that’s like saying GM is casually interested in oxygen for breathing. :-)

    By the way, a little info for IFEESTORY: UFTO aka Ed Beardsworth helped Dick Weir get meetings with silicon valley VC’s. He helped Weir get the Kleiner Perkins investment in EEStor. He recently went on the record with Michael Blieden, the filmmaker creating a documentary about EEStor. BTW, in addition to Kleiner Perkins, EEStor’s counsel is Larry Sonsini, well known as one of the most powerful attorney’s in the country and someone who very early on, saw the value of taking an ownership stake in the companies his firm represents. It’s very conceivable he also has a stake in EEStor based on that. Lastly, billionaire Mort Topfer remains on the board of directors. The net result is that EEStor has far more credibility than all the many naysayers combined.

    An interesting question anyone with a scientific background should ask themselves is who are the leading institutions in the USA on barium titanate? What do they say about EEStor….as of January 2009? Bury your head in the sand….or ask the right questions of the right people. :-)

    MUAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAAH!!!!

    -B


  47. 47
    unni

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (4:07 pm)

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/01/on-the-rebound-scientists-invent-regenerative-shocks/
    On the Rebound: Scientists invent regenerative shocks

    Should be real than EEstor. I remember the cheese story posted by some one some time back.


  48. 48
    Altazi

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (4:40 pm)

    Energy (in joules) in a capacitor is related by 0.5 * C * V^2. It’s that squared term on the voltage that comes in handy when you are using high voltages. According to the EEStor patent, the EESU has a capacity of 30.693F (farads) and a working voltage of 3,500V. Using these numbers in the equation shows that a charged EESU would be storing 187,994,625J – that’s almost 188MJ! Holy sh!t, Batman. A joule (J) is a watt-second, so divide by 3,600,000 to convert to kilowatt-hours. This gives roughly 52.22kWh in a charged EESU. This assumes no losses in the system, of course.

    As the EESU is discharged, the voltage will drop in a nonlinear fashion. Clearly some means of providing a fixed voltage output at a more desirable level (200V or so?) would be required. It is obvious that a high-efficiency switching power supply would be used. Efficiencies well above 90% are possible in such devices. There would be very little power wasted in the converter unit.

    Making small-volume capacitors that can withstand 3.5kV is no mean feat. I look forward to see how this all pans out.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (4:50 pm)

    #46,

    As an engineer, when I hear claims like EEStor’s, I immediately assume they are breaking laws of thermodynamics or else have been rendered temporarily insane for the last few years. I am trained to be skeptical, but that said, the more I look at EEStor the more I start to wonder if I am being premature in my dismissal of them. The interest shown by several prominent investors, GM (however small), and especially Lockheed is intriguing.

    They have either duped a lot of smart people (entirely possible, see Madoff for proof), duped themselves (also very possible, when you want something to work really badly you sometimes start to imagine things), or they are really onto something major.

    Personally, I have thought all along that they are duping themselves, but who knows? *If* they really do have something (and it is not way more expensive and complex than they thought) I see more immediate promise in the technology as a compliment to Li-Ion, not a replacement. If it is more complex and expensive than advertised (almost surely true), I think high-power lasers are probably going to be the first to use Ultracaps, not cars.

    ———————
    wondering what amazing new techs engineers have dismissed out of hand and then been proven wrong about


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (4:54 pm)

    RB in #16 said:
    ” As far as I know, there is as of now not a single laptop computer that is powered by ultracapacitors, because they are complex to use as compared to batteries.”

    Complication is not the real issue. I don’t think computer manufacturers are afraid of complication. Energy density is the real issue. Supercapacitors have less than one tenth of the energy density of Li batteries. You can’t make much of a laptop that way. Guess what is need most for electric cars? Energy density. But supercaps don’t have it. EESTOR claims to be making an earthshaking development that would almost require a rewrite of molecular physics. But until they can deliver tested proven systems that exceed the energy density of batteries, you won’t see them in electric vehicles, unless just as regen brake power absorbers.


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    PHEVadvocate

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (5:18 pm)

    Read post #4 of the following link:

    http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html

    I believe EESTOR has a saturation problem and they can not store the energy they claim at their 3,500V working voltage. The capicator may not break down at their high voltage, but they are past the point where the equation 0.5 * C * V^2 applies.

    Everybody is using this company’s fantastic claims for the Green Buzz it generates.

    Can anybody shoot down what is in post 4?


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (5:20 pm)

    [b]The EESTORY:
    1) NO independent 3rd party verification.
    2) NO commercial production line.
    3) NO UL certified ceramic battery.
    4) NO CityZenn powered by EESTOR’s ceramic battery.
    5) NO one has seen a working prototype outside Dick Weir’s dream world!
    [/b]


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (5:44 pm)

    Lektriktadpole #50

    Thank you, amen, ya. I’m going to take a nap now knowing it can’t be said any better you said it.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (6:21 pm)

    The problem with capacitors is they leak energy. Imagine driving about with your park lights hard wired on, so even when you are parked they stay on.

    This is why all applications with capacitors only use them for short term activities, like capturing the energy from regenerative braking etc.

    PHEVadvocate February 1st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
    Read post #4 of the following link:
    http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html

    That post should be required reading for everyone here.

    Finally Statik. Stop being so darn positive you’re scaring me. Have you been having late night chats with Tag or something? Get back to normal and go comment on my forum post about Toyota’s annual profit, oops I mean loss. ;-)


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (6:21 pm)

    #48 Altazi says correctly
    As the EESU is discharged, the voltage will drop in a nonlinear fashion. Clearly some means of providing a fixed voltage output at a more desirable level (200V or so?) would be required. It is obvious that a high-efficiency switching power supply would be used. Efficiencies well above 90% are possible in such devices. There would be very little power wasted in the converter unit.
    —————————————————————————

    Absolutely so, and these facts are a huge complication. Used “as if” it was a battery, a capacitor requires some miracle device to withdraw energy at a markedly varying voltage and make it into a more or less constant voltage. Furthermore, the conversion device has to work across the wide voltage range coming out of the capacitor, and it has to handle (for automotive) high power. Furthermore yet, the conversion device has to be small and weigh little. Day-dreaming about voltage converters used for tiny amounts of power in radios and such will not do it.

    Or, one can completely redesign motors and such to work from a highly variable voltage.

    This is not going to happen quickly, easily, or cheaply, if it happens at all. What’s happening on this blog is engineering based on a single value (total capacitance), no device, and imagination. It all is great fun, but it is not reality.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (6:29 pm)

    Lyle says GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor

    Denise says: Thanks for the info. When you can provide us with a working prototype, I’ll think about getting some lab time for you.

    Lyle, giving someone minimum benchmarks to meet is not the same as working with them. On this basis I could claim to be working with YOU, because I have read the forum post rules, and sent you a few emails about topics to post over time.

    Cheers


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (6:38 pm)

    #19 statik says
    Lets go down the foxhole here…and just for a moment assumed what EEStor says they have is real. According to them, they wil be able to mass produce a 52kWh pack for about $2,100, no degradation, 6 minute charge time…the whole thing weighs 330 pounds.
    ————————————————-

    This description omits the fact that the voltage of the capacitor will be highly variable across a wide range. It will in no sense be a plug-in replacement for a Li-ion or any other kind of battery. Yes, the energy in the capacitor can be exploited, but no, not without substantial cost, expense, and weight, not to mention time for design and development. There is no free lunch here.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (6:45 pm)

    #34 statik

    Cedar Park is just a few miles from me…but I’ve not heard of any unicorn sightings in the area. :)

    They must put on a great “magic show” for the reputable companies that are investing in them. Especially if no working prototypes exist.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (7:35 pm)

    Can anybody shoot down what is in post 4 at
    http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2007/09/10/eestors-ultracapacit.html
    =========================
    That is the best explanation I have ever seen as to how Eestor can make claims on their powder material that are 100% verified by outside labs, but still completely fail to make a product that actually delivers the revolution they promise.

    They probably will deliver the best capacitor ever produced, but with only 1% of the promised performance. Vehicles like the Volt might use them to provide 20 seconds worth of “Passing Speed” to take the strain off the Lithium battery without cranking up the ICE.


  60. 60
    Tagamet

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (7:45 pm)

    NZDavid@54 said in part:

    “…Finally Statik. Stop being so darn positive you’re scaring me. Have you been having late night chats with Tag or something? Get back to normal and go comment on my forum post about Toyota’s annual profit, oops I mean loss. ;-)

    Ever since Statik and I made that joint investment in a genetically engineered breed of Unicorns (these guys are very cold-tolerant), he has really mellowed out.
    There was a time he he didn’t even believe in them….
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS Independence Day 2010


  61. [...] news around EEStor got a little brighter for me when Lyle Dennis from GM-Volt.com asked GM’s head of battery research, Denise Gray, about the stealth company. She said that GM [...]


  62. 62
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    Feb 1st, 2009 (8:31 pm)

    I Can hardly believe the number of comments on this site!

    When you consider that the top 20% and bottom 30% of the 16kw/hr battery in the Volt will not be used in an effort to get a full 10 years life out of it under warranty, that’s a full 50% of very expensive and heavy battery capacity that’s basically redundant!

    So there’s a 50% inprovment in cost and weight for Volt energy storage sitting on the table right now. If you look at it that way it makes perfect sense to keep seriously looking at alternatives.


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    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (8:53 pm)

    It is standard business practice to say “we have recieved literature”. What I find interesting is that she says it’s confidential if she’s recieved parts or not. Translation= We’re paying attention to want our customers want but we’re not going to hype anything up. Remember the Ford Edsel.
    For once start thinking tactically. With the economy as it is, false hopes won’t be tollerated. Why the deal with zenn? How’s the big three doing right now? Make and test in the desert where it’s hot, send the same units to a cold environment(Canada?) for test and keep the oil cartels from taking it away from your potential customers(us). Remember what happened to NiMH. Or do you secretly want your stocks in oil to remain viable while pretending to care about the world and everyone else. Those of you telling Lyle what to report and not report are definatly suspect. Lyle’s done a helluva job keeping gm going in the right direction and giving the customers a voice for them to hear; for a doctor, he’s a damned good reporter ;-) . If eestor turns out to be a madox then so be it, but drop the malcontent attitude towards Lyle. He’s done more to get to volt rolling than anyone else and helping gm to open their eyes. Their hasn’t been a serious revolution in autos for a long time, just newer ICE configs and packaging. If eestor is for real, then gm would be fools for not getting a piece of the cake. NiMH. Cell phones didn’t exist in the 60′s remember. According to the info out there, their not ‘sposed to be in a vehicle till 2010 anyway. Why not wait til then or would you jump ship and buy a zenn instead of a volt? What happens to the volttec (that Lyle worked so hard to promote) then?
    Thanks Lyle for giving something to be positive about. The fact that gm is even talking about eestor shows their serious about making up for the past, causiously of course.(ev-1). If eestor’s for real, then gm can go back to the turbo-charged geni config. without worrying about batt. wear. With the e-flex we’ll reduce oil dependance (I’ll still install fuel cells and build the geni ;-) ). Lyle if they don’t give ya a medal and a Converj, let me know; I’ll skin Ricky & ‘em for ya. :-) .


  64. 64
    Youda Farmer

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:01 pm)

    Wouldn’t it be ironic if this little company located in the heart of America’s Oil Industry (aka Texas) is the one that catapults us towards energy independence away from Big Oil. This is what dreams are made of.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:27 pm)

    #24

    YES !


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:31 pm)

    tim-the-dreamer@63 said in part:

    “…Lyle’s done a helluva job keeping gm going in the right direction and giving the customers a voice for them to hear; for a doctor, he’s a damned good reporter ;-) . If eestor turns out to be a madox then so be it, but drop the malcontent attitude towards Lyle. He’s done more to get to volt rolling than anyone else and helping gm to open their eyes….”
    and “…Lyle if they don’t give ya a medal and a Converj, let me know; I’ll skin Ricky & ‘em for ya. :-) .”

    Amen, Brother! (though I think Lyle should get a Volt to use while the Caddy is produced). If you need any assistance, I know “Louie the Lip”.
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS Independence Day 2010


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (9:41 pm)

    Tagamet @66
    You got it bro! And a hunt’n we will go!!!


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    statik

     

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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:17 pm)

    Huzzah! Pittsburgh wins, but does not cover…dollar bills!


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:17 pm)

    Seriously though I honestly think Lyle should get both. Who else would be the best spokesperson than Lyle. As much work as he’s done to unite GM and their customer base, he’s actually the best candidate to promote it nationwide; given his familiarity with volttec and devotion to get it out.

    Doctor, reporter, planetary defender, spokesperson(celebrity); damn Lyle, talk about an overachiever! :-) .


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:24 pm)

    The ultra capacitor is way too big a development for GM not to be fully plugged in. I think their being a little coy about looking at some literature. A real cat and mouse game.

    Youda Farmer # 64

    Of course your right but the true nature of great developments is some inventor toiling in his garage or basement making spectacular innovations. It’s a tribute to the American Way.


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:25 pm)

    #45 Tag said:

    “Hey Statik!
    You’re the uncontested fiscal aficionado here, any idea what the profit margin Big Oil averages for, say, a decade?
    Thanks in advance,
    Tag”
    ————————
    Just over a $1 I think. (Although I have no idea what margin you are looking for here).

    Side note: What the heck are you doing on your computer…who was watching our unicorn farm while I was watching the Super Bowl?
    ==============================================
    #54 NZDavid said:

    “Finally Statik. Stop being so darn positive you’re scaring me. Have you been having late night chats with Tag or something? Get back to normal and go comment on my forum post about Toyota’s annual profit, oops I mean loss. ”
    —-
    We have a forum? (j/k)
    —I would go there, but “other posters are watching your behaviors and taking notes” there, (hehe…sorry I couldn’t resist)


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (10:49 pm)

    Statik, you know that our Uni’s are hardened for the cold. They are right out back of my place (I can watch them from my inner sanctum).
    Re Big OIl’s profit margin, I just meant that if you take all their expenses – the $ spent finding, getting, refining, and transporting the oil/gasoline into our gas tanks, (including taxes) and compare that to their income, what percent of the pie is profit?

    HUZZAH FOR THE STEELERS (too). Three hundred and seventy some days until the Olympics in Canadia (sic).

    Oh, and NZDavid meant Quorum (g)

    Be well,
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! *************** NPNS *************** Independence Day 2010


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:20 pm)

    To all those who think static is too happy: its because he’s excited about the new Canadian budget and the $40 billion deficit.

    We’re about one year away from the Vancouver Winter Olympics and I want to extend a hearty invitation to all of you to attend. I visited most venues and they are spectacular both in the City and at Whistler. So if you like having a good time consider Vancouver next winter because this will be the best Winter Olympics yet.
    We’ve built a new Olympic Village just south of downtown, a new highway to Whistler Mountain, a new rapid transit line from the airport to downtown. A new convention center on the waterfront, a skating oval in Richmond, and of course bob sled, cross country ski runs, jumping towers, etc at Whistler.
    The pièce de résistance is the new mountain top gondola that travels from the top of Blackcomb Mountain to the top of Whistler Mountain. Its the highest and longest gondola in the world and guaranteed to get your adrenalin pumping. For those of you who have never been to Whistler Village, its a mountain resort town of about 10,000 folks that has been voted among the top destinations in North America by major ski magazines. Hope to see you here,


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:27 pm)

    #72 Tag said:

    Statik, you know that our Uni’s are hardened for the cold. They are right out back of my place (I can watch them from my inner sanctum).
    Re Big OIl’s profit margin, I just meant that if you take all their expenses – the $ spent finding, getting, refining, and transporting the oil/gasoline into our gas tanks, (including taxes) and compare that to their income, what percent of the pie is profit?

    HUZZAH FOR THE STEELERS (too). Three hundred and seventy some days until the Olympics in Canadia (sic).

    Be well,
    Tag

    LJGTVWOTR!! ********** NPNS ********** Independence Day 2010
    ===========================

    Hard to class ‘Big Oil’ as a group…but for XOM (Exxon Mobil) you are historically looking at about 16 cents on the dollar. Although it has been clipping close to 20 of late, I would expect some significant contraction in 2009…and a return to historical norms in 2010.

    It’s a pretty big number, few ‘Blue Chips’ can even come close to competing. The ‘Big Dog’ of consistant, historical margins is MSFT (Microsoft), coming in at around 30 cents on the dollar over the last decade.

    PS) Don’t remind me about the Olympics…I’m seeing commercials for it all over the place already. It is going to be a fiscal nightmare…not as bad as the ’76 games in Montreal, but bad just the same. Montreal didn’t clear the debt until only just a few years ago. “Olympic Stadium” is known as the ‘Big Owe’ there.

    EDIT: Sorry about being a downer on your PR of Vancouver there Ed M …I guess I’m just getting back into form. Monetary policy aside…Vancouver is a great place, it really is…everyone should go there once before they die, lol. Whistler is a great place to head to for a ‘weekend away’


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    Feb 1st, 2009 (11:41 pm)

    #46 B sounds like the blogger with the bag over his head. He was the one as of December 2008 stating a “credible” person told him EESTOR will deliver an EESU to ZENN by end of December 2008 which he believed and posted on his blog. Another credible person to the blogger with the bag over his head is Ian Clifford of ZENN who stated delivery of EESU is “imminent” in 2008. Credible people like that will try to sell you snake oil.


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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (12:07 am)

    statik #74

    You judge our fiscal responsibility out here a little harshly but its understandable with all the negativity in the lefty press.
    The Vancouver Olympics is on schedule and budget and on target to make a profit regardless of what the media says. True the Olympic Village had some financing problems, but who hasn’t lately with the crooks on Wall Street (pulling the rug out from under the builder). That’s been pretty much straightened out. Of course that’s good news and the media doesn’t report good news.
    Vancouver can’t compare with the mafia that built the Montreal Olympics. The crooks left the taxpayers holding the bag back in the 70′s and the Big Owe is still an mbarrassment. Did they ever put that $200 million roof on it ?
    Anyhow the Calgary Olympics did very well and were fun to attend and we’re using that model, not the Montreal one.


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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (12:13 am)

    Statik@74
    Thanks for the Exxon info. I’d read that their actual profit after taxes (ALL taxes) was closer to 8% once the ups and downs of a decade were smoothed out. Not a big deal either way. At least they aren’t asking for a bailout (yet). Maybe waaaaaay down the line when most (or all) of the energy demands have been shifted to electricity.
    The Uni’s have all bedded down for the night (thank goodness). Those d@mn rainbows and sunbeams keep shining in my windows and keep me awake…
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! *************** NPNS *************** Independence Day 2010


  78. 78
    Jim in PA

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (12:18 am)

    EEStor is a GM “supplier”? Doesn’t being a “supplier” mean that you have to.. oh, I dunno… actually supply something? Sounds like an odd application of the word.


  79. 79
    Tagamet

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (12:44 am)

    Ed M@76

    Canada has a left leaning press too??? Did ours emigrate north or did yours seep south? I know that you got the “benefit” of a lot of our fine young men who had an aversion to jungle environments back in the 60′s.
    Best of luck on the Winter Games!
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR*************** NPNS *************** Independence Day 2010


  80. 80
    IFEESTORY

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (12:52 am)

    Advanced Capacitors World Summit 2009 Final Program

    http://www.ecoworld.com/members/posts/2009/01/06/advanced-capacitors-world-summit-2009-final-program-announced/
    http://www.regonline.co.uk/builder/site/default.aspx?EventID=676625

    Lyle, If you or anyone else is interested in seeing who the shakers and big wigs are in the Capacitor industry, I would highly recommend attending the Advanced Capacitors World Summit. Credible companies Maxwell, Nesscap, and Apowercap are participating in the Summit. The one company missing is EESTOR…I can’t imagine why.


  81. 81
    EEStor Skeptic

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:18 am)

    Unless and until EEStor makes a prototype that works, it should be treated skeptically. Doing otherwise encourages fraud and steers investment from productive uses to waste.

    I know Kleiner Perkins invested $3 million into EEStor, and ZENN invested at least $2 million. They must have thought the high reward justifies the high risk. But I know that neither Kleiner Perkins nor ZENN has seen a prototype. So the fact they invested says nothing about whether EEStor’s technology works.

    While this interview with Denise Gray is interesting, she says nothing of any substance. EEStor sends GM information. That’s it. If EEStor had a prototype to show GM, we would know that.


  82. 82
    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:25 am)

    IFEESTORY@80,

    We’ll find out soon enough, if they’re for real. Remember, Zenn set a deadline for the cityzenn intro in 2010; if eestor’s for real then they’re cutting it pretty close. That’s why engineers should never run a company, they’ll keep changing things and by the time they finally get to market, others have already beat them to it and raked in billions. If by spring of 2010 we don’t hear squat from anyone, then we’ll know; however as you’ve pointed out others are working on ultra-caps so we may eventually have some.

    I’d laugh myself silly if it turned out that development on advanced capacitors started on a lie. Guess eestor is doing some good after all. Either they got one or spurred the development of them. hmmmm


  83. 83
    Ed M

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:34 am)

    Tagamet #79

    Well Tag, some of the guys that dodged Nam became good friends of mine, they’re quality folks and we’re very happy they chose Vancouver to settle down in. About 40,000 of our young fellows from Canada joined with US forces during the war. Chances are most people in Ontario have roots in the US because about 1/2 a million made their way up here after the War of Independence and there’s about 3 million Californians with ties to Canada.

    Right now we have a young couple living with us, he’s from Philly and she’s from Minnie. I truly like Americans, (being one myself but not a draft dodger).

    I think most Canadian and American journalists went to the Randolph Hearst school of trumped up stories to sell newspapers.

    The Volt will be good for Vancouver because were prone to boxed in pollution like LA. Be well and prosper (Demolition Man)


  84. 84
    Nixon

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:35 am)

    Luckily we all know that there will never be anything invented that is better than gas/diesel engines and lithium batteries. Capacitors will always have all the same problems and limitations that they have historically had, and nobody can invent a new kind of capacitor without those problems and limitations.

    Ahhhhh…. It feels so good to be within the nice comfort zone where nothing big ever changes.


  85. 85
    DGDanforth

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:38 am)

    30 Farads does not mean much without also knowing the voltage used to charge the capacitor. EEStor has mentioned 3500 volts as a working number. If you use that voltage and the 30 Farad value you do indeed obtain 52 kwh of energy stored.
    E = 1/2 C V^2


  86. 86
    Altazi

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:39 am)

    I have seen comments relating that the EESU is supposedly able to be fully charged in 10 minutes. Assuming the numbers are correct, a full charge is 52.22kWh; to deliver that in 10 minutes requires a power source capable of providing an average of roughly 87kW (assuming no losses for the sake of discussion). If we apply a constant current (which gives a linear voltage ramp) to achieve a 3,500V charge in 10 minutes, the required current would be :

    I = C * (dV/dT) = 30.693F * (3500V / 600s) = 179A

    Fully charging a discharged EESU in 10 minutes will require a massive power delivery system, almost to the point of being fantastic. There is much information that is unclear or unavailable to the general public.

    At this point, I can just imagine someone driving an EESU-powered car down the road at 88mph with a lightning rod attached, hoping to capture that 1.21gigawatts the moment the lighting bolt strikes :)


  87. 87
    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (2:04 am)

    Altazi@86

    What about up-transformers? If a stun gun can jack a 9v to 75000v, would it be possible to modify the same tech to adjust for amp. with power supplied from a 110 source? I remember as a kid my dad playing with some kind of hardware(vacuum tubes) that produced 330 amps from a 110v source at 75 amps. Isn’t there a modern equivalant for said problem?

    Gotta go, I’ll check back sat. Thanks.


  88. 88
    Altazi

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (2:52 am)

    You are ultimately limited by the power available at the electrical outlet you are using to power your device. Power = volts x amps (for resistive loads like incandescent lamps, but let’s not complicate things). A typical receptacle in a U.S. home is 120VAC at 15A. This gives you a maximum of 1,800W of power available.

    You could use a transformer to step the 120VAC down to 12VAC, and the maximum current available would be 1,800W / 12VAC = 150A. You could use a step-up transformer to turn the 120VAC input into 1,200VAC, but the maximum current available would be 1,800W / 1,200VAC = 1.5A. This assumes no losses in the transformers, and that the transformers are sized to handle this amount of power.


  89. 89
    EEStor Skeptic

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (3:08 am)

    Charging a supercapacitor with 52 kWh worth of electricity in 10 minutes would not be something you could do in your typical home garage.

    But it’s not that difficult either. Altairnano and Phoenix Motorcar demonstrated charging one of their 35 kWh batteries in 10 minutes. As I recall, their charger worked off a 10 kV line.


  90. 90
    unni

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (3:27 am)

    was reading http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/jan05/2777

    says 10 more companies are on ultra-capacitors ( 4 yr old report, means they may have advanced a lot by now ). It may not be that tight to know the limitations and future.

    If GM succeeded in pushing extended range mileage to above 70+ mpg by intelligent power control and distribution systems, then instead of expensive battery, they can use ultra capacitor and make low end offerings.
    They need ultra capacitors for regenerative energy storing ( breaks, shocks et.c )


  91. 91
    EnergyByEarth.com » GM is Playing Nice with EEStor

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (4:59 am)

    [...] news around EEStor got a little brighter for me when Lyle Dennis from GM-Volt.com asked GM’s head of battery research, Denise Gray, about the stealth company. She said that GM [...]


  92. 92
    Dave K.  =D~

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (6:02 am)

    A company that has a new product takes it to market. They don’t say that they have ‘something special’ and talk about how it’s ‘several times better than X, Y, and Z’.
    A concern that is looking for investment or an out-right buy-out says that their ‘something special’ is unavailable.

    Sounds like EEStor is all hat and no cattle. You can bet your HUZZAH on that, partner.

    =D~


  93. 93
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (6:11 am)

    I wish EESTOR well. I truly hope they have something important.
    However, I still see them as fake.
    I truly hope that I am wrong.


  94. 94
    nuclearboy

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (7:10 am)

    We all have the same working relationship with EE-Store that GM does and apparently we all have about as much info as GM does on this subject. GM is just trying ot be polite and not say that they are probably full of crap.


  95. 95
    Bob McGovern

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (7:31 am)

    Same night. Different dream. What next, Perpetual Motion?


  96. 96
    RB

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (7:37 am)

    #88 Altazi says
    At this point, I can just imagine someone driving an EESU-powered car down the road at 88mph with a lightning rod attached, hoping to capture that 1.21gigawatts the moment the lighting bolt strikes :)
    ———————————————

    Yes, this car will be the EESTOR model L :)
    The EESTOR model J will do all the above and jump over any cars in its way.


  97. 97
    N Riley

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (11:31 am)

    So, anything is possible. Now that tells us exactly what we already knew. But, I am glad to find they are communicating with EEStor. That is interesting and hopeful.


  98. [...] G&#77-V&#111l&#116.c&#111m / [...]


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    noel park

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (1:12 pm)

    #97 N Riley:

    I agree. In her capacity as director of advanced batteries, Ms Gray would be remiss not to track what is going on at EEStor, or anywhere else there is a possibility of a substantial advance in the state of the art. Good for you, Ms. Gray.

    If they want to send her some “hardware”, so much the better. If the whole thing fizzles out, hopefully GM doesn’t have any, or at least very much, money in it. If it works, hopefully nobody catches her flat footed.

    The folly of dismissing new technologies is nowhere better demonstrated than on today’s thread about GM’s failure to match the Prius.


  100. [...] GM-Volt.com / [...]


  101. [...] G­M­-Vo­lt­.c­o­m­ / [...]


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (6:01 pm)

    This is crap. Nothing delivered, nothing proven, nothing PERIOD.


  103. 103
    omegaman66

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (8:25 pm)

    What is their latest date when they will change the world?


  104. 104
    EEstor ultra-capacitors - Page 8 - Tesla Motors Club Forum

     

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    Feb 2nd, 2009 (10:08 pm)

    [...] agree that there’s no news there. Unless you consider EEStor contacting GM news. I don’t. GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site __________________ Mark Tomlinson "I am not a trouble maker; I’m a catalyst for [...]


  105. 105
    dean

     

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    Feb 3rd, 2009 (7:16 am)

    “GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor”

    You have a strange definition of “Working Relationship”

    At best, “GM Admits they’ve been solicited by EEStor”.


  106. 106
    joel gilberg

     

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    Feb 3rd, 2009 (10:59 am)

    does anyone remember what plastic is made of – oil will never go away. Oil is in medications – are we not going to take our daily dose? Oil is in …

    if i am driving a “gas” powered car and hit a “EESU” powered car … what happens.

    besides the Antarctic – were are these metals found in abundance; greening of the air but not the earth.

    political power = mobile society that communicates, does not equal society without oil.

    Zen is only rated for city – or golfing – not a factor.

    EESU great – what about suppliers to build an EESU powered vehicle, how many years to build those relationships.


  107. 107
    Eco

     

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (9:18 am)

    EEstor’s product in vehicles is an under-utilization of the technology.

    The most important place for EESTOR’s product is the national electric grid. THAT really would change the face of the entire world.


  108. [...] the full article at GM-Volt, and take a look at the video of the interview with Denise Gray, GM’s Director of Advanced [...]


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    Ted

     

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    Feb 26th, 2009 (10:57 pm)

    EEstor sent me one of their new ultracapacitors yesterday. I called them and asked if I could buy one to play with and they sent one to me. It’s pretty cool and it works, I think. I don’t know how to hook it up yet but my dog got the surprise of his life….well ex-life, when he pounced on it with both paws, one on each electrode. I liked that dog, a lot. He’s toast. I’m going to pull the engine out of my Saturn, install an electric motor and hook this thing up to see if it really runs. I’m not sure how to charge it yet but I’m in the process of connecting a direct line to one of those large round transformers on a pole down the street. That should be enough voltage, amperage, or whatever this thing needs for one of the thirty-minute fast charges. I hope this all works out, and thanks EEstor, great idea, great product, I think. I’ll let you know.


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    Chris

     

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    Mar 5th, 2009 (7:24 am)

    “If we apply a constant current (which gives a linear voltage ramp) to achieve a 3,500V charge in 10 minutes, the required current would be :

    I = C * (dV/dT) = 30.693F * (3500V / 600s) = 179A

    Fully charging a discharged EESU in 10 minutes will require a massive power delivery system, almost to the point of being fantastic. There is much information that is unclear or unavailable to the general public.”

    No, it will require a charged EESTOR unit, identical to the one in the car. This could be either a 50kWh home charger or a large 1MWh+ fleet unit. 250 amps should easily be possible from a 0000AWG water cooled cable, allowing a 7 minute charge.


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    Chris

     

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    Mar 5th, 2009 (7:29 am)

    “I remember as a kid my dad playing with some kind of hardware(vacuum tubes) that produced 330 amps from a 110v source at 75 amps. Isn’t there a modern equivalant for said problem?”

    Yes, it’s called a boost converter. One of the most promising ones for EV applications is the split-pi converter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-pi. This is a long solved engineering problem, typical 200kW+ units mass less than 100 pounds.


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    Doof

     

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    Mar 25th, 2009 (7:14 pm)

    Ed M all of the people who have naysayed have these huge motivational operations as to how people act. but sometimes a + b doesn’t equal c. What if there is more to the story than just money. some people deserve the credit for sticking their neck out like Lyle. frankly im with tag, statik, and tim. Optimism sometimes makes life worth living. I taped a carrot to a horse once and made it look like a Unicorn. Was fun to see some eyes open wide at the site.
    Doof


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    ThaPyngwyn

     

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    Mar 26th, 2009 (11:59 pm)

    The last time I heard about an amazing invention that was supposed to change the way the world worked as we knew it, it turned out to be the Segway. Go figure.


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    joemama

     

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    Apr 9th, 2009 (8:29 am)

    Thanks again for a good laugh folks. It’s so funny that people STILL beleive in Eestore ! It’s hilarious. Weir is just sucking up the investment dollars, throwing a few tidbits out there to keep the whole thing rolling. But the fact is……..he doesn’t have anything. He thought he would. But he ran into problems, and can’t solve those problems, hence the delays, and more delays, and no, absolutely no, prototype. He’s stuck, he can’t get it to work. The experts said it couldn’t be done, and they know more about capacitors, than Weir.

    The only question left is; how long he can drag this out, and keep getting investment dollars, without really having a product that works ?


  115. 115
    ricardoRI

     

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    Apr 27th, 2009 (10:52 am)

    The interview says little. Obviously, there is a very strict NDA, so Denise can’t talk. GM would not have signed an NDA unless there was some interest. Denise would not have expressed There is no glint of information of whether GM has actually received a protoype or not. Because there still appears to be a relationship between EESTOR and GM, that implies that GM does see some potential , or else Denise would not have said they are keeping contact.

    I am highly skeptical of a seriously useful device/vehicle to come out of these discussions, but I’ll wait and see. Remember way back when GM put millions into Wankel cycle engines, and never released a thing? Of course Mazda did, but it was not a game changer. I suspect this is just an updated replay.


  116. [...] be lining up to get EEstor units. In fact GM is already confirmed to be in communication with them: GM Admits to a Working Relationship With EEStor | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site So you reply saying big car companies have EVs (really REEVs for the most part including the volt) [...]


  117. 117
    My Stock Buddy

     

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    Jun 6th, 2009 (9:29 pm)

    I hope EEstor works. But I would not expect it for another decade or so. Actually, Lithium Iron Phosphate is the technology of choice… for now. Watch out for A123 batteries, Lithium Technologies or Tenergy. All are showing very promising results from battery tests.

    Again, I hope EEstor works…… but I doubt it will work for a while.


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    joemama

     

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    Jun 8th, 2009 (9:36 am)

    Weir is the Bernie Madoff of energy storage. Keep repeating : no prototype, no product. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

    Has Eestore applied for the government grants like A123 Systems ? Of course not, because in order to do that, they would have to have a demostratable product. The experts about ultracapacitors have spoken on these forums, and THEY have said it can’t be done. And along comes Weir, with little training in ultracapacitors, and he ‘says’ he can make it work. The problem is……………………… he still can’t figure it out. The experts were right. Weir is just buying more time, and selling more smoke.

    Eestore should be forgotten about, except if you want a good laugh !


  119. 119
    digital radio scanners

     

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    Oct 15th, 2009 (5:41 pm)

    the interview does not give much away..I guess for obvious reasons.
    We need to probably trust that GM will only buy a product if it is of quality, but I honestly don’t think that this technology for auto apps will be ready in the short term

    As I skeptical? yes.
    But I will wait and see before I form a proper opinion :)


  120. 120
    Mark

     

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    Nov 29th, 2009 (4:22 pm)

    Having worked for the GM division that developed the charge ports for the EV1 (Impact), it was suggested they use NiMH batteries, and their managers were referred to a company called Ovonics, founded by Stanford Ovshinski. NiMH still seems a viable alternative to what is being supplied to the electric vehicle market. There have, however, been stories that NiMH batteries are being ignored for unknown reasons.

    Beyond that, EEStor has interesting CLAIMS for its EESU technology. Dick Weir promised a pre-production unit by the end of 2009 in the leaked interview that has spread widely around the Internet. We are fast approaching the end of that promised delivery, and not one word whether his statements will become a reality. This company is accumulating all the earmarks of a scam, since they have been making these promises for a number of years now. GM spokespeople claim to have proprietary knowledge they are unable to divulge and are even unwilling to state whether their expectations are for a successful demonstration of EEStor’s technology. That seems pretty strange if GM is receiving the type of information that warrants interest on their part.

    It is very unfortunate that we have to view those who have risen to the top managements of America’s largest companies as bandits on the take for the public purse. The major banks and the central banking industry are prime examples, that appear to be the road map on how to steal from the public purse, rather than putting at risk private investment capital, thus enriching any thief with a plausible story.