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GM Q&A With Bob Kruse on the Chevy Volt’s Batteries
Bob Kruse is GM’s executive director of global vehicle engineering for hybrids, electric vehicles, and batteries. There is a report of a new interview with him. Bob is an executive integrally involved in producing the Volt and other future electric cars.
He discussed the current status of lithium-ion battery technology. He described the process of evaluating cells for the Volt ant noted “We selected LG as the cell source for Gen-one Volt; and we are also very intrigued and attracted to some of what A123 has to offer and are continuing to do advanced development with A123 for future applications – just not Gen-one Volt.”
He talked about GM’s recent battery pack announcement saying “We decided this battery pack business was really core to being in the electric vehicle market. So part of our [January 12] announcement was that, in addition to announcing LG as the cell source, that GM is also moving to design internally, and engineer internally, and validate internally, and ultimately manufacture internally the battery packs.”
He admitted the packs are expensive but wouldn’t say how much or whether they are more than $10,000. He explained how GM is working hard to push future battery costs down noting “in addition to the Gen-one battery system, I’m right now also working on Gen-two and Gen-three solutions that have elements of both performance and cost that are part of my expectations of my team to deliver future-gen systems.”
Kruse responded to a question about thermal runaway/safety concerns of lithium-ion cells. He said “There are many layers of safety built into the Volt,” including “all the way down to the cell level.” He noted the importance of the prismatic cell shape and the use of LG Chem’s proprietary anode/cathode separator in that regard. He said GM employed stringent safety testing standards and confirms “I can assure you we’ve met those standards with what we’ve designed and what we’ve selected.”
He admitted it woudl be important to have a US-based cell supplier, saying ” If and when there is a lithium-ion cell manufacturing footprint in the US, they will come onto our radar and get appropriate consideration.” But he acknowledges that foreign sources such as LG Chem were the only ones up to speed at this point.
He explained GM’s strategy to ensure the batteries will last 10 years or 100,000 miles citing proprietary GM intellectual property around battery management describing the process as “I have more battery capacity than I’m using. There’s a sweet spot in there. I won’t over charge the battery, or over discharge the battery.”
He discussed risks of battery failure, noting how critical it is to have “pharmaceutical” grade battery purity. He explained that if even one cell falters it could strain the other cells in the pack, potentially degrading them. The solution to prevent this he explained as “part of what I have designed into the pack is a very sophisticated cell balancing capability, so that as the pack ages, the individual cells age. I will adapt the cells to the pack, constantly rebalancing my pack…. The software and hardware, the algorithm that does that, and how we do that, is also highly prized intellectual property.
Source (Christan Science Monitor)
96 Responses to “GM Q&A With Bob Kruse on the Chevy Volt’s Batteries”
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:02 am
I didn’t think GM wants to be in the battery business. I guess things have changed. It’s a wise, long term strategic decision to do so.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
I would like to know for instance if GM is doing work on the Nickel Zinc cells that are Smaller , Stronger, Lighter , and Cheaper and are made in USA by an American company.
I also would want to know if GM is doing work to incorporate Super Capacitors in the first and successive generations of Electric Cars.
These things are important .
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
That Christian Science Monitor…they always have the inside scoop somehow, of course they have both God and science on their side…hard to beat that, hehe. Actually a pretty good article overall, and a lengthy interview.
What caught my eye about the thread, is the quote of 10 years/100,000 miles on the battery life in your thread Lyle, which I find interesting because that comes up well short of state-specific emission laws like California that require 10 years/150,00 miles. However I can’t seem to find that reference in the source article, did you perhaps accidently put that in there?
The only quote I can find on it is this, “I’ve chosen a “life of the vehicle battery” and my terms of “life of the vehicle” are eight to 10 years. Our promise of 40 miles of electric range is an end of life requirement…”
The part where Kruse dodges the ’silver bullet’ question of “do the packs cost more than $10,000″ is worrisome, and his none answer is as telling as a straight one. I think many of us assumed that even the initial pack price would be decently under 10K (especially since GM is pricing 2 packs into the MSRP)…one has to believe if GM was paying under 10K per pack, he would just give out a quick, “No, they are cheaper than that,’ instead we getting a Eco101 lesson on ‘cost curve’ on new tech and the wonders of volume.
/a good read overall…beats the heck out of the deadly one-two punch of the Prius and solar panels (=
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
OhmExcited,
I agree. It is very wise to bring this in house. And if they succeed, they could potentially sell batteries to other companies that want to outsource.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 am
Seems like Kruse is really on top of things. I thought it was a brilliant move for GM to make their own packs while outsourcing cells. They can keep up with the latest cell technology while standardizing the packs to their own proprietary specs.
One of the big problems with home built EV’s is cell balancing. I’m glad to see they are providing some systems engineering solutions to help keep things balanced.
NPNS
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
#2 Keith, The beauty of building the pack/systems and software while outsourcing the cells is that they can let others spend the money to develop new chemistries and then just test what others have come up with to determine if it’s any good for their applications. I would imagine as soon as a company working with Nickel Zinc cells can create enough cells for GM to test in a pack they’ll give it a shot. Although it probably doesn’t pay to test unless it packs more punch for the weight/size.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
So he is saying, we really liked A123 but their product needs more R&D so we went with a safer option with LG has they meet all our requirement for Gen 1 and more important they have the production capacity.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 am
Without taking time to read the article, I want to make one comment. I was hoping GM would offer a charging port where you could plug in a “standard” electric cord you could purchase at WalMart instead of a specially designed plug that will cost hundreds of dollars if you lose one or it is stolen. Why, GM, couldn’t a standard grounded electric cord work just as well?
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
It just shows you how primitive current battery technology is – we have software trying to avoid the many deficiencies of the hardware.
The rules concerning 10/150K for emissions equipment doesn’t probbaly apply here – the battery is not eddential to meet emission standards – those are fully met by the range extender motor. There are NO EVs around (including the California built Tesla) that would meet the 10/150K standard. And the BYD looks to be a much more
practical EREV, yet its batteries won’t last half as long as the Volt’s (but they are a whole lot cheaper).
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
#8 N Riley
The charging cord has presented more than a few interesting discussions of late.
I will note that they have all seemingly complied with a ’standard’ vehicle cord/plug across the different manufacturers…so while we are still likely to pay more than a regular cord, there will certainly be generic brands to get around corporate gouging.
However, you mentioning this, makes me think of how Tesla is now ‘upcharging’ $3,000 for the ‘quick charge’ option (used to be standard inside the MSRP). Of interest it takes about 30 hours standardly to fully charge the Roadster’s packs.
I have to wonder if GM (and the other players) will also follow suit now that Tesla has broken this barrier down…I have a sinking feeling they will make it a pricey option as well.
I can live with a 8 hour charge for the Volt, but it would still be nice to be able to ‘quick charge’ it during the day and get multiple 40 mile uses when I need to.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:42 am
Maybe I’m reading into this wrong…but it seems to me pricing in a 2nd battery into the cost is a bad idea. The price of batteries / battery pack will be going down as production / technology gets better. Why price it in now when they could just produce the Volt at a lower price?
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 am
#9 kent beuchart said:
The rules concerning 10/150K for emissions equipment doesn’t probbaly apply here – the battery is not eddential to meet emission standards – those are fully met by the range extender motor. There are NO EVs around (including the California built Tesla) that would meet the 10/150K standard. And the BYD looks to be a much more
practical EREV, yet its batteries won’t last half as long as the Volt’s (but they are a whole lot cheaper).
===========================
Howdee Kent, the 10/150 standard actually does apply here, 100%.
It is a major barrier to the affordability of EVs. If the new transportation minister over-rules state law and returns emission/battery regulations to be a ‘federal standard,’ that would be a great day for EVs…but no so much the environment, so I personally have mixed feelings.
Just as a example of this current legislation, the current gen Prius falls into this restriction on its battery pack, and Toyota is forced to warranty their backs in California for the full 10/150 in California (and 8 other states…or is it 10 now? can’t remember), whereas in the states which have not adopted this policy, Toyota only covers the ‘hybrid and battery parts’ for 8 years/100,000 miles.
I see where you are going with your ‘emissions’ reasoning, but any car that is certified as a PZEV, or ZEV has to comply with this law. (As fyi, the first gen Prius is not certified and has a 8/100 across the board).
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:51 am
It looks like the battery pack is going to be solid. I gathered that what they did was over spec the battery pack to stay in the “Sweet Spot” 100% of the time. So that means when you are at 100% SOC you are probably really only ate a REAL 85% SOC and when you are at 0% SOC you are REALLY only at 30% SOC.
They seem to have worked out the problematic issues most DIY conversions have with cell balancing. There is one item that concerns me. He said that as one cell ages the rest will age. That to me sounds like an engineered “Exclusive OR” where as if a single cell fails you have to replace the entire pack “exclusively” OR not at all. The BMS design/software doesn’t sound like it will be able to use a single new cell replacement of a bad one because of how it ages the pack. The introduction of a brand spankin new cell to the pack is a no no. Kind of like the principle of, if your 3 cell flashlight’s batteries are low and you replace just one, not a good idea.
Now I want to know more on the Generator. Not the ICE part but the GENERATOR.
Lyle, ask about the Generator dude.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
@ #8 N Riley & statik
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/23/sae-to-launch-program-to-create-standard-plug-for-evs/
Apparently they are already working on standardizing….
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Check out is electric drag racing car video.
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:15 pm
They should work with BYD to procure the Lithium-Iron batteries from them. It will drive down the cost and they can have BYD carry the warranty of the battery opposed to adding it to the price of the car.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! DBNGCMEMEV
Have a nice day.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:27 pm
James makes a good point – if an external company is making the batteries, should they not warrant them? Gm needs only worry that their balancing circuits work properly. Why are we paying for two batteries (whether that’s still true or not)?
P.s. There sure are a lot of Bob’s at GM, lol.
Edit: I just rethought things. The Gm warranty is that the batteries will last 10 years. Manufacturer warranty would just be against premature failure (I.e. cells randomly die)
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Just curious…
I wonder why BYD was not in the pool of battery candidates?
Oh well….
Just build my Volt Dangit!
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
It sounds to me like GM is doing their homework…
“We went through a very elaborate search of cell chemistry and construction. I want to say we looked at hundreds in the early days of the volt. And in that process, we developed what I would describe as probably one of the most rigorous cell assessment processes in the industry…”
In addition to choosing the right chemistry, it’s obvious that they are using every means to ensure the battery pack (each individual cell) retains good performance and life…
“So by never overdischarging, never overcharging, never allowing the battery to charge or discharge out of a temperature range all unique to the battery chemistry I’ve selected, it allows me to have confidence in the longevity of my package.”
I don’t know how many here have had conventional lead-acid auto battery failures, but usually it seems to that one cell goes bad. It seems that GM recognizes this, and will take extra precaution to avoid this problem….
“As it relates to individual cell reliability, having proven capability to manufacture cells with pharmaceutical-level cell quality so that each cell is identical is absolutely critical to my success formula. If you can imagine having hundreds of these cells fit together, and one is slightly out [of] spec from the others, you’re going to work that cell harder than you do the rest of the cells. If you work it harder, it’s going to wear out sooner. Then, in a battery where these cells are strung together in series to get voltage, the chain is only as strong as the weakest link analogy begins, and you lose a cell…. I do have a level of redundancy built into my pack in the way I have my cells configured both in parallel, and in series, to be able to protect that.”
And to manage the overall pack, GM is using “technology”, information learned from exhaustive research and testing…
“The other thing you have to watch out for is that as these cells begin to charge and discharge, that no matter how identical you manufacture them, they will start to deviate from each other… part of what I have designed into the pack is a very sophisticated cell balancing capability, so that as the pack ages, the individual cells age. I will adapt the cells to the pack, constantly rebalancing my pack…. The software and hardware, the algorithm that does that, and how we do that, is also highly prized intellectual property.”
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
I wonder if GM has looked into the nanotechnolgy lithium ion batteries as an option. I realize this type of battery will be very expensive, but some people will be able to fork out the money to buy them which will start to drive the price down. If you go to the link above at allcarselectric.com. Shellby is using them and allows that they can recharge this type of battery pack in 10min on 110V. Also from what I have read this type of battery can be recharged about 2000 times without hardly any performance loss. This would be a consideration for some people who put a lot of miles on a car. They may pay more for the batteries at first, but at 100,000 miles the nano batteries will still be going strong. DeWalt is allready selling this nanotechnology battery in stores now for their cordless tools.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
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Lyle, that was a good read.
Thanks.
______________________________________________________
Electric Cars + Nuclear Power = American Energy Independence!
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January 23rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I’m guessing most people have seen this already, but in case you haven’t, Shelby is rolling out the worlds fastest electric car.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/01/23/ssc_pledges_ev_aero/
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January 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
BYD would not be eligible because of severe quality control issues. Recently the CCP ordered the death sentence for two people found guilty of the toxic milk exports. Lead-based paint, safety designs, chemical purity, etc. It’s still very primitive over there. And why should prudent manufacturers import heavy parts from halfway around the world – if they can build them closer to home.
Maybe if the country improved their human rights record – they would find more acceptance globally.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Static #3
The part where Kruse dodges the ’silver bullet’ question of “do the packs cost more than $10,000″ is worrisome, and his none answer is as telling as a straight one.
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I didn’t take it necessarily as bad. If the pack costs $5,000, but you’re telling consumers and the gov’t that you’re not making a dime on a $40,000 car because of high battery costs, you stay silent on the issue to preserve your profits.
In the defense industry there’s 2 good reasons to make something classified. 1 – if it performs better then expected or 2 – if it performs worse.
A good reason for suggesting pack costs are really high is that GM is focusing on pack cost reduction for Gen 2 & 3, rather then performance improvement.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:05 pm
#3 statik Says: “…one has to believe if GM was paying under 10K per pack, he would just give out a quick, “No, they are cheaper than that,’ instead we getting a Eco101 lesson on ‘cost curve’ on new tech and the wonders of volume.”
————————————————————————————–
At this point, I can’t see any incentive for GM to release their internal costs on the battery. They already have their $7500 tax credit. If the battery costs less, then people would want the vehicle price to be much less. If the battery costs more, then people would say the Volt is GM’s fantasy. Either way, releasing internal costs of the battery is a big risk with no real reward.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
According to the contract with LG Chem, the 250 cells needed for each pack will carry a price tag of around $7,000 per battery on average for the entire lifetime of the Gen 1 Volt contract (through 2015). I imagine the total cost including all labor and raw materials for the battery pack housing and wiring and what not will be somewhere around $8,000. Maybe $9,000+/- if there are costs included that I can’t think of, but I would be very surprised if they cost more than $10k each.
The SOC algorithms sound like GM is really taking this seriously. I’m glad because we really need the first productions EREVs to be a good experience for people.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:09 pm
#21 Eric Says: “I wonder if GM has looked into the nanotechnolgy lithium ion batteries as an option.”
————————————————————————————–
I believe A123 uses nanotechnolgy:
http://www.a123systems.com/technology
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:24 pm
#13 CaptJackSparrow Says: “So that means when you are at 100% SOC you are probably really only ate a REAL 85% SOC and when you are at 0% SOC you are REALLY only at 30% SOC.”
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Yep, we’ve known that since summer 2007:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/
GM has also implied that the full and empty points will vary as the battery ages. So at the beginning, maybe it swings from 35-75% and by the end it swings from 20-85%, or something like that. I believe this is how they get 40 miles of AER at end-of-life. This means that the battery will age more rapidly as it reaches end-of-life.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:28 pm
#27 omnimoeish said:
According to the contract with LG Chem, the 250 cells needed for each pack will carry a price tag of around $7,000 per battery on average for the entire lifetime of the Gen 1 Volt contract (through 2015).
=================
Now this is very interesting, and news I had not heard…do you have a source for this omnimoeish, or where you just piecing together bits of standard pricing information/rumor from around the net?
I know I would really like to give the LG contract a ‘once-over’…and you could sent that link directly to Lyle, I’m sure he would like to make that its own thread as well.
Before I read your post I was writing up a response about pricing to cautious fan (#35) and Dave G (#36), that basically said while there is no advantage to them disclosing costing on the vehicle, it can also not really make it secret either. We would/will be able to find out/extrapolate it, because I believe it to now fall in the disclosure/approval clause for the ‘car czar’ under the bailout agreement. Any and all contracts/financing and events that are materially worth over $100 million dollars have to be reported and cleared.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:33 pm
It’s noticeable that Mr. Kruse has ‘I’ trouble .. he sometimes references his team, but almost as often speaks as if he personally is designing and assembling everything, lol.
Nevertheless, this is one of the best links yet. Makes me more comfortable that GM is really doing the groundwork behind the scenes, to make this program not just ‘get the wheels on the road’ .. but actually *work* for the life of the vehicle. Nice post, Lyle.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Have you guys een the new EV Shelby?? Mr. Shelby has always been the man in performance so I tend to believe the releases they make. If true will revolutionize the industry..
http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/21/ultimate-aero-ev/
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
#27 omnimoeish says “According to the contract with LG Chem, the 250 cells needed for each pack will carry a price tag of around $7,000 per battery on average for the entire lifetime of the Gen 1 Volt contract (through 2015).”
I’m with Statik on this one. Very interesting indeed. Source?
A123 has a K with the USABC to deliver packs that take a vehicle 40 miles for around $4500 in volumes of 100K. interesting is the LG Chem price is higher.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Sorry the 10 minute charge is on a 220 outlet.. This is from the Shelby website
Here’s the quote.
“SSC will display its AESP in the Ultimate Aero EV in order to prove that electric-powered vehicles will not only match but also provide more linear power (electric motors have 100% torque at 0 RPM) and overall performance than internal combustion cars. The Ultimate Aero EV utilizes a twin motor AESP producing an astounding 1,000 HP and 800 lb-ft of torque enabling it to rocket to 60 mph in a mere 2.5 seconds and reach a top speed of 208 mph. Not only does the Ultimate Aero EV have a range of 150-200 miles on a single charge, but SSC’s “Charge on the RunTM” onboard charging system allows for 10 minute full battery recharges on a 220 outlet. SSC’s 3-speed automatic transmission transfers the Ultimate Aero EV’s power to its wheels and achieves electronically controlled shift times of .24 s. The entire AESP is liquid cooled allowing it to run for extended periods of time at peak performance with no overheating issues.”
Here’s the link: http://www.shelbysupercars.com/news-012209.php
Either way very cool…
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
#13, CaptJackSparrow,
Just wanted to let you know that in the Volt that the ICE IS THE GENERATOR.
Me want Volt!!
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January 23rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm
#11 JB
I am in agreement with you about charging for a 2nd battery up front. I can understand GM’s desire to cover potential cost, but at full 2nd battery cost? Why not just charge everyone, say, 15% if they make the assumption that 15% of the batteries will need to be replaced. That way the consumer gets a lower cost and GM gets to collect up front for potential battery replacements. If they do charge full price for two batteries and the consumer doesn’t have to replace the battery during the warranty period but does after the warranty has expired, will the consumer still get a “free” battery? Somehow I think it highly unlikely. GM is going to just suck up all that 2nd battery profit and the consumer gets nothing, unless his battery fails during warranty. Somehow I think this sucks!!!! IMO.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:07 pm
How do you work on Gen 2 and Gen 3 when Gen 1 is no where near production? Amazing.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:10 pm
@Sam Y 35
Correct me if I’m wrong but I undertood it as there is a 1.4L (I)nternal (C)ombustion (E)ngine [hence ICE] coupled to a Generator.
An ICE is just that, an ICE.
A Generator by definition is a device that takes a series of copper wound coils rotating through magnetic flux fields.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
#36 N Riley
I think you came to the right conclusion there. With that second battery priced in, that is where all the profit is, and that is why they are being so unbelievably anal about battery performance and the hardline 40 mile range…even if the battery can do more. They are working as hard as the can to make sure almost all of those batteries see their 10th anniversary.
I have a feeling that the sudden need to fully price in the second battery came hand in hand with the rationale for ramping the price up to hoover up the $7,500 rebate.
Personally, I don’t blame GM, I would do the same thing if I was them…that is just the way rebates work. I was not shocked at all when Tesla send the word out to all their customer’s on the waiting list and told them $6,000 worth of standard equipment was now a option…while mentioning at the same time that all deliveries after January 1st do indeed get the $7,500 rebate.
/it could all be coincidence…but I’m the glass half-full guy
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Yeah…Captain@38…
I concur.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Hey guys, just a quick question. I haven’t found the answer in my research, but does anyone know whether or not the 10 years, 100,000 miles guarantee for the battery is applied using a SEPERATE odometer for the battery? I think that’s something that should definitely be utilized.
Chris
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:27 pm
#17 noel park
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS! DBNGCMEMEV
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What he said!
Stew
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:29 pm
#8 Nrielly
“I was hoping GM would offer a charging port where you could plug in a “standard” electric cord you could purchase at WalMart instead of a specially designed plug that will cost hundreds of dollars if you lose one or it is stolen. Why, GM, couldn’t a standard grounded electric cord work just as well?”
Personnaly I use a block heater all winter, I can tell you it scratched the paint off the bumper of my last car, so I built a bracket for the current one that keeps it away from the car so when the wind doth blow, my paint is safe.
The plug in hte pic accomplishes this nicely.
As to special plugs being stolen..why would you steal a cord you cannot use? really…You can’t forget it as it plugs on the driver side, and the first should be included with the car.
I Do not WANT a regular plug, because the car receptacle will require multiple configurations..120 and 240 plugs being different.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
The “Spare” battery scenario has been lingering in the back of my mind for some time. This scenario sucks a$s.
However, If I am charged this $7500 – $10000 for the extra battery up front and I don’t need a battery till the 8th year, theoretically prices will come down but capacity and performance of battery products will also increase, so with this money banked on a new battery, will the new one be “Equivalent” in performance of the OEM when I first bought it?
If so, then you can kiss my purchase goodbye.
If not and the new battery has more capacity that is directly proportional to the increase in battery tech, then you still have my sell.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Mitch @ 43
Are they going to give us two cords?
One for 120V and one for 220V?
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:43 pm
#44 CaptJackSparrow said:
The “Spare” battery scenario has been lingering in the back of my mind for some time. This scenario sucks a$s.
However, If I am charged this $7500 – $10000 for the extra battery up front and I don’t need a battery till the 8th year, theoretically prices will come down but capacity and performance of battery products will also increase, so with this money banked on a new battery, will the new one be “Equivalent” in performance of the OEM when I first bought it?
=====================
I think you can assume it will be identical to the original equipment, unless of course they don’t actually make the pack or have inventory of it….in that case you might find that they do a ‘upgrade’ as a matter of convenience for themselves.
With the pack priced into the MSRP, they will certainly be attempting to ‘retain’ all of that money, I would wager that would be a difficult thing to get warranty replacement on…short of catastrophic failure (I’m sure there will be some kind of fancy acceptable ‘depleted range’ capacity clause in the warranty…so you just can’t go in and say, “take it for a spin and see if you get 40 miles out of her”).
I would count yourself lucky to get a full pack replacement at year 8,9 or 10. I know I mentioned this before, (to the shagrin of more than a few posters), that I would be charging/depleting that thing 5-6 times a day in the last couple years, ‘ensuring’ I got a new pack under warranty, if I had to pay for it up front.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:44 pm
#43 Mitch
I might ask you why would someone throw a brick through your car’s rear window as they walk by? If they don’t intend to crawl through and steal stuff, what does it accomplish for them? Nothing but juvenile behavior.
I do agree with your block heater comment. That would be a bummer to have the paint worn off the side of your car, wouldn’t it? Thanks, I had not thought of that.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:47 pm
#39 Statik
Maybe GM will be kind to us and refund our 2nd battery cost if we keep the car over 150,000 miles. Let’s see, now. Should I go ahead and make some future purchase plans based on their generosity? Probably not.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 3:57 pm
@statik
“I would be charging/depleting that thing 5-6 times a day in the last couple years, ‘ensuring’ I got a new pack under warranty”
Here’s a hint, tap the battery at the point just before it connects to the proprietary computer controlled BMS, that way everything that happens, drain wise, will be unmonitored to the extent that the BMS will only see SOC reduction but not current drain.
Aw man I better shut up…..
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
#45 David K
I envision one cord with a totally seperate style from either 120 or 240. You will aslo get the wall socket that your electrician will connect to accept the plug. The car will be able to determine the voltage. (if it can’t that is plain stupid because my razor can)
#47…can’t answer for stupid (if I could solve stupid I’d be rich!! But no one in 20 years has stolen my extension cord for the block heater, one end does sit in the garage, but then again I am lucky. I live in a grat neighborhood. REALLY GOOD. I left the hatch on the van open after loading it one night with about 5k in tools to help my brother flipping a house, and nothing walked…
Gotta like it
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
On the second batery costs…my thought is that thus far..all pricing is SPECULATION!! while being transparent, GM will NOT say everyting..the high initial cost speculation is GREAT for them…
Look at it this way..battery cost 10k, price for 2 is then 20k, vehicle costs 12k maybe 15..total 35..but wait, at reveal / launch..GM is VERY confident in the battery, drops the 2nd cost, car now 25k LESS THE CREDIT!!18.5k you can see the prius in the rear view mirror….
Or if they spread the cost at a 50% factor..1 for every 2 sold..30k total, 22.5 after credit…Toyota and Honda..please stay in the right lane as the left is for passing…
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
My estimate for the Volt battery cost is $16,800. Yes, that’s quite high. Here’s how I arrived at that number…
$ 2,500 – Prius battery at parts counter. Divide by 2 (parts markup) to get
$ 1,250 – Prius battery factory price. Divide by 1.8 (KWH in a pack) to get
$ 700 – Prius battery factory price per KWH.
That’s the raw battery price for 1KWH of NiMH
Mutliply by 16 to get
$11,200 – Price of 16KWH battery in NiMH chemistry. Multiply by 1.5 (the whiz-bang factor) to get
$16,800 – Price of 16KWH Li-Ion battery for Volt
The whiz-bang factor is how we adjust for the superiority of Li-Ion over NiMH. The battery is newer, lighter, higher capacity, these things ordinarily mean “priced higher” (like how a 19″ flat screen TV is more expensive than a 19″ conventional tube TV). There’d certainly be little point to pricing 1KWH of Li-Ion BELOW 1KWH of NiMH, a $700 is the price the market will pay for 1KWH of heavy, bulky NiMH capacity, so the whiz-bang factor certainly won’t be < 1.0.
GM is probably hoping that Li-Ion is going to come down prior to Volt production and it could be that LG is signing a contract for a smaller amount of money per KWH because they expect some cost savings to develop before Volt production or as an incentive for the business but LG certainly can’t afford to take a bath on this indefinitely and there was only one other competitor, anyway, so it’s not like they have heavy competition. If A123 and LG are already profitable in their battery businesses, they don’t need to take a risk on a low-ball offer to get business. I understand A123 is doing well in the hand-tool battery business and other battery projects develop all the time; I don’t know LG’s profile but they are a big manufacturer and their stuff is in every Best Buy in the world, so I expect they’re doing OK.
I’d bet a quarter I’m not off by more than 20%.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Mitch @50
Now I am even more confused…right now I already have a 120V outlet right next to where my Volt [#19,xxx on the "LIST"
] will be parked.
It’s a standard 3 pronged GFI outlet. Are you saying that this “special” cord will not work with this outlet?
Also, I will be contemplating replacing this outlet with 220V outlet (very easy and inexpensive, I can do it myself and I’m not even an electrician).
Now I know there is more than one 220V plug type because I have a spare dryer that I will have to switch the cord from the old dryer when the time comes.
It would seem to me that GM should give us one cord for use with both 120V & 220V and simply provide us with an adapter for the non-Volt end.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:46 pm
David K
I think the new cord will plug into a normal 3-prong electrical wall plug but will be designed to meet specifications at the car’s charge port on the vehicle. Your wall outlet should not change.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Massive US companies usually annoy me with their slowness to innovate (due, imho, to them spending more money for lawyers than R&D engineers- a claim which may be biased since I am an R&D engineer…). However, GM seems to have something very special and quite impressive going on in the Voltec program. GM has basically created a “start-up” within itself, and the rapid innovation coming out of that is a good sign. It reminds me of something like Lockheed’s skunk works, since Volt engineers sound like they are in a candy shop and are loving it. They however, also have one benefit of a big corporation- conservatism, which (hopefully) translates into making sure you get everything right before you say/do anything major (this is where a start-up company like Tesla really has some trouble). The excellent battery management system and all the other ways it appears like GM has thought of absolutely everything is a sign of their careful approach. I think all of this is clear evidence that GM is very, very serious about the electrification of the automobile (not ’cause they are suddenly saints, but rather because they want to make loads of cash). Those who think the Volt is bound to be a short-lived publicity stunt (and those people still harping on “Who Killed the Electric Car” …who also probably never recognized the severe lack of engineering knowledge of the directors which led them to make occasional ludicrous claims) would do well to reconsider. I do think the Volt concept started out as a non-production intent stunt, but thankfully GM realized they had struck Gold…^2, and are now going all-out to mine it before anybody else.
#52- I agree, I think at this stage $15,000 may be more like it. Gen 2, imho, will probably hit sub $10,000 though and I bet it’ll go way down from there. Yay econ 101- who said it was a dismal science
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:10 pm
If the Volt battery costs $750 per KWh, then the pack costs 12,000. The currently disclosed design concept is to use 8 KWh, so when you buy the Volt, you buy an extra battery, the other 50% not used. As the battery ages and cell capacity diminishes with calendar and cycle life, the proprietary system increases the utilization of the cells, so that at end of life you can still “burn” 8 KWh.
Anyway, that is my guess for what it is worth.
And others do not reserve as much, since testing indicates an average loss of about 30% SOC over the calendar and cycle life. And as I have posted before, I expect GM to figure out the “margin gluttons” within their engineering department have had too much to eat and free up 2 or 3 more KWh for initial utilization. Time will tell.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:21 pm
I am guessing that the cord shown in the photo is not the production spec model. There are a lot of safety reasons GM will develop a special cord. The main one is to build in a ground fault inturrupt more commonly called a GFI. Anybody with a newer home has seen GFI’s. They are incorporated into electrical outlets and have a breaker inside that pops if the electrical load on the hot wire does not match the Neutral wire. They are required by code in bathrooms and kitchens near your sink. You can also get a GFI circuit breaker for your electrical panel but these are not used much because you have to go to the basement to reset them if they get tripped.
I’m guessing 99% of garages in the U.S. are NOT protected by GFI outlets and GM cannot risk lawsuits by not incorporating a GFI into the cord. In fact, many MANY homes doen’t even have grounded electrical outlets ( the 3 prong ones). People buy little adapters to allow them to plug 3 prong cords into 2 prong outlets, not smart or very safe, but cheaper than re-wiring your whole house.
Can you imagine standing in wet melted snow in your drive, yanking out the plug from your car, dropping the cord into the slush that you happen to be standing in?????
Off track but worth noting. Even if you have 3 prong outlets you should test them to make sure the ground plug is actually connected. A lot of people put in 3 prong outlets for convenience but they (the ground lug) is not connected to anything. Again not very safe, and not up to code, but its done every day.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:27 pm
#37 jabroni Says: “How do you work on Gen 2 and Gen 3 when Gen 1 is no where near production? Amazing.”
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Not amazining. Quite normal. Big project developement works like a pipeline.
By the time you see stuff being sold to customer, the advanced developers are already working on the 4th or 5th iteration. This is par for the course.
What’s amazing is that we’re even hearing about it. Thanks Lyle!
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:29 pm
“Hey guys, just a quick question. I haven’t found the answer in my research, but does anyone know whether or not the 10 years, 100,000 miles guarantee for the battery is applied using a SEPERATE odometer for the battery? I think that’s something that should definitely be utilized.”
I don’t know about a literal odometer, but I would be very surprised if there won’t be some kind of recording meter which functions like the one on your house: except that it would account for the amount of energy going in as well as coming out, and/or perhaps an average of activity over a 24hr period. I don’t see how any electric car concern could protect itself, otherwise (to say nothing of benefits from statistical analysis of the real-world data which would be collected).
The battery lifetime calculation being used for the Volt assumes 40 miles AER a day, so all you “plug in at work” guys may be in trouble if they rule that this constitutes “severe use” and subject to a different degree of warranty protection — if any.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
#38 CaptJackSparrow,
Yes, we still don’t know much about the generator. For example, is it a Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) or an induction generator?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_generator
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:36 pm
#39 statik Says: “I have a feeling that the sudden need to fully price in the second battery came hand in hand with the rationale for ramping the price up to hoover up the $7,500 rebate.”
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Yep! That’s what I’ve been saying all along.
The implication is that actual price will be lower…
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January 23rd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
#57 solo2500nt Says: “I am guessing that the cord shown in the photo is not the production spec model. There are a lot of safety reasons GM will develop a special cord. The main one is to build in a ground fault interrupt more commonly called a GFI.”
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Yes, you are right. The GFI part should be on the end that plugs into the house.
This is a big subject that nobody seems to be talking about. The plug and cable is something people will have to deal with twice a day. It’s a big deal.
For example, what if I want to plug in at work or at a friend’s house, but I left the specialized plug at home?
What it I lose the specialized plug? How much do they cost?
What If I want multiple plugs for different locations?
Why cant GM use a standard plug?
Lots of questions here…
Lyle, could you ask GM about the details of the plug and cable?
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Dave G.
The “standard” part of the plug will have to be a standard 120 volt male connector or a heavy duty 240/30amp (or more) connector for fast charging similar to one on your electric drier. The propriatery plug will be the female end on the car side, preventing Joe Brainless from using a Wallmart extension cord and deep frying himself and the garage, house, etc…….
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I know Lutz said they were accounting for 2 packs but there is no way they are pricing the cost for 2 full packs into the Volt. Omnimoesh’s figure of $9,000, if accurate, is COST. Two of these is $18,000 COST. This would translate into $30,000 of the MSRP at no profit. No way! They might be spreading the cost of an amortized replacement as Satik alluded to or $2000-$3000 in other words. This car is a $25,000-$30,000 car without the battery. Think about it, the plus costs over a Cruze are: generator (less alternator deduct), motor, power electronics, high voltage wiring/bus, charger, regen breaking, low power accessories, cast alum wheels, low rolling resistance tires, ground Cd effects, etc. And most of these components are new and low volume.
I know everybody wants a $25,000 Volt but that is just not reality and won’t be for some time (Gen 2 or more like Gen 3).
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
#45 David
The 120 volt cord most likely will be included and the heavier 220 volt cable could be a dealer extra! At least it’s not like Tesla with it’s huge cable and wall mounted box.
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/012hgW76058fX/610x.jpg
My major concern is GM’s “electric gas nozzle” that sticks out from the car. The handle keeps fingers away from power, but unlike the gas tank, you leave it in place for hours.
http://www.designmom.com/uploaded_images/DSC01167-723793.JPG
If it’s like the Apple MagSafe connector that pops off without damage, then it’s OK. But if someone “snaps” it in two by hitting it from the side, then it’s a repair or replacement.
Think of a darken garage in a power failure and you walk next to the car and slam into the handle. If charging in public places, it needs to be vandal proof either like the Apple MagSafe connector or a super strong plug and socket design that can take the abuse of hundreds of pounds of pressure.
Hopefully an industry standard will evolve from the best designs.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Statik #10
“However, you mentioning this, makes me think of how Tesla is now ‘upcharging’ $3,000 for the ‘quick charge’ option (used to be standard inside the MSRP). Of interest it takes about 30 hours standardly to fully charge the Roadster’s packs”
It is BS that they would now be charging for the High Power Charging. This is still on their website’s specs page as a standard item. That isn’t just a 240V plug. It is a 70 or 100A charger and cable. The Volts is a little different in that the 240V charging should only require a different plug (hopefully) and not a seperate cable or charger since it is the same Amp rating as the 120V.
“I can live with a 8 hour charge for the Volt, but it would still be nice to be able to ‘quick charge’ it during the day and get multiple 40 mile uses when I need to.”
Absolutely, this is much more important to reducing gas consumption than many realize. Of course it will take time for charging to become available outside the house but if electrification of the automobile is truely going to happen charging facilities are a must. Fortunately, the planets do seem to be aligned pretty well to make this happen.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:42 pm
32. Southernlightning,
That is a different Shelby.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Ford has already stated that the battery in their car would cost ~$20,000. That battery is slightly larger than the Volt’s.
Even with just one $15,000 battery and no R&D premium for the Volt it will already be into $40,000+ range.
In other news, turns out Tesla is losing ~$50,000 per vehicle.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Battery warranty will probably be a simple cycle count, as laptop batteries are measured.
My laptop keeps track of cycles in both full (>60% deplete and recharge) and partial cycles, adding up to full.
On charge-sustain mode, the battery level would probably not move much to equate a full cycle for a while, so I’ll just take a couple cycles off my final number.
If we have 100,000 miles as a warranty value, at 40 miles per cycle, you’re looking at 2500 cycles.
GM could just look at the cycle count, and if its >2500, you’re out of warranty.
That’s just under 7 years of doing 40 miles and plugging in every day.
I imagine I’d use half that, or less.
If you think of it in terms of work days (plug in for full charge 5 times a week), that’s pretty much 10 years until you reach that value.
Even if you take 100 cycles off for combined partial cycles of ICE use, the time to use those cycles isn’t greatly reduced.
Based on these numbers it would seem that GM has thought things through a bit (or it’s just pure coincidence, lol)
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January 23rd, 2009 at 6:52 pm
I just don’t believe that GM can charge you for an extra battery without disclaiming it in the “Included Features” and “Specs” that’s plastered on the sticker window at the dealers. They’ll have to adhere to disclosure laws. They might call it “Battery assurance fees” or some crazy shlt like that. But to not disclose it opens them to massive lawsuits.
I feel better now.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I wonder if GM will allow Volt owners to see the the battery’s “Cycle Count”. This would help owners know where they stand under their warranty period. More importantly It’ll help statik and I know when we need to start work.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 9:06 pm
#71 CaptJackSparrow said:
I wonder if GM will allow Volt owners to see the the battery’s “Cycle Count”. This would help owners know where they stand under their warranty period. More importantly It’ll help statik and I know when we need to start work.
=======================================
We’ll have to all start a ’secret’ Volt owner’s club to maximize our investment, lol.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 9:15 pm
#63 solo2500nt Says: “The “standard” part of the plug will have to be a standard 120 volt male connector or a heavy duty 240/30amp (or more) connector for fast charging similar to one on your electric drier. The propriatery plug will be the female end on the car side, ”
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If there is GFI built into the cord, it must be built into the plug that goes into the wall. Look at any hairdryer. The same principal applies here.
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January 23rd, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Determining battery cycles / usage is only part of it. For the first time, an odometer would offer no real indication of engine wear. Perhaps an hour meter like a boat engine or stationary powerplant engine would be more appropriate.
Considering a battery cycle evaluator and an engine hour meter, might GM consider taking the odometer off of the car? Except for a trip odometer, why would one be necessary?
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January 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Wow ! All this stuff about the cord. Don’t you think GM can get anything right ?
Seems to me they are checking everything at least twice and if they can’t get the dam cord right they better give it all up right now !
I think they are better than given credit for and they will built it right.
I have no loyalty to GM or any other brand but the Volt looks like a winner and a win win everyone
If GM can survive through the recession, say a couple years they will be VERY strong.
GO GM !
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January 23rd, 2009 at 10:45 pm
With some intelligent situational awareness, some knowledge of how the systems age might get maximum benefit for any given situation.
If you have an engine, you need to run it regularly. This is part of what makes that first lawn-mowing (or snow-throwing) of the season such a production. Engines that sit and run only occasionally collect water in the oil, normally ‘dry’ portions lose lubrication, etc.
My daily commute would run 45 – 48 miles round trip, and I have been hoping that the “hold” button (or some means) allows me to turn on the range-extender before the customer depletion point is reached. This would allow me to run the engine daily over the 8 or so miles of my commute that occur on an expressway, where battery-electric drive is least effective. Even if I had some juice left at the end of the day, I’d still get ‘way over 100mpg, and my engine wouldn’t face excessive wear from infrequent use.
In the event of hurricanes in the gulf, or a world-scale disruption in oil supply, I could then investigate plugging in at work, having given the battery an easier life up to that point.
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January 24th, 2009 at 12:31 am
#1
OhmExcited
could you explain your conclusion from the article ?
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January 24th, 2009 at 1:05 am
Can GM get the cost of the batteries down 25% or so by end of 2011? Seems likely if battery technology continues like it is now.
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January 24th, 2009 at 1:14 am
I may have missed it, but the battery warranty is for every owner or just those in California?.. California does have a requirement that batteries have a warranty , 10 years/150k miles I think.. but the rest of the nation may not get that.
40 mile electric range daily will cover 80% of the population, it is not to GM benefit to allow you to recharge the battery quickly to get those 40 miles several times a day.. it will stress the battery and they will get to eat the cost.
If the fuel system is sealed, no moisture will get in the gas or inside the engine.. and the engine can be lubricated by just cranking it over, no need to start it.. moisture is byproduct of combustion and so it will accumulate in the exhaust system.. hopefully it will be rust resistant.
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January 24th, 2009 at 6:54 am
First, I don’t believe GM wants to make the cells because it is out of what is called their “core competency”. In other words, GM doesn’t manufacture standard bolts, nuts, or other widgets. It is better to let smaller companies with lower overhead costs manufacture these, and GM just makes sure they have 2 or 3 suppliers so that prices are competitive.
By this same reasoning, A123 is not out of the picture, because GM wants to have more than one supplier for cells.
However, since the manufacture of cells seems to be highly specialized, (pharmaceutical grade) and there will be many competitors as years go by and technology progresses, GM likely feels it is best to remain a purchaser for these items.
For the battery pack, however, GM has a great deal of proprietary “value added” that they bring to the table. They have obviously tested the LG Chem batteries extensively and have developed cooling systems, charging cycle protocol, control logic, and other proprietary knowledge so that they can make the batteries last a long time (we have always said that the key to the Volt’s success is the battery pack).
Since battery packs are so expensive, the key to a successful EV is not only the drive system, but making a battery pack that will last for the life of the vehicle.
Lyle, does this mean we can now classify the Volt’s batteries as “recreational pharmaceuticals”?
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January 24th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Regarding all the talk about separate plugs and or cables for 120 or 240, at Voltnation they said that the Volt would have a “smart plug” that would sense the voltage and charge accordingly. No separate cables or plugs. I have no idea how they’d planned that, but it was addressed as something that they’d already thought about and had solved.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
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January 24th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Tagamet #81
“Regarding all the talk about separate plugs and or cables for 120 or 240, at Voltnation they said that the Volt would have a “smart plug” that would sense the voltage and charge accordingly. No separate cables or plugs. I have no idea how they’d planned that, but it was addressed as something that they’d already thought about and had solved.”
I think they were saying smart charging and that you could plug it into 120 or 240 but I don’t recall the saying you would using the same plug or cable. The 240V plug is totally different from 120V and I just don’t see how they could make a plug the will work for both without an adapter (like a travel plug adapters to use a razor or other US electric device in other countries with different standards). But since the amperage is the same, the same cord and car-side connector could be used.
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January 24th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Herm #79
“40 mile electric range daily will cover 80% of the population, it is not to GM benefit to allow you to recharge the battery quickly to get those 40 miles several times a day.. it will stress the battery and they will get to eat the cost.”
I don’t see how discharging the battery in 40 minutes and charging it in 3 hours will “stress” the battery. Why do you believe this would be the case? Personification?
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January 25th, 2009 at 12:41 am
because there is a limited number of battery cycles available..
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January 25th, 2009 at 11:53 am
#81 Tagamet,
#82 koz,
It’s common for switching power supplies to accept either 110v or 220v at either 50 or 60 hz. Most laptop power supplies do this. I suspect the battery charger in the Volt is no different. So the plug on the Volt will be the same for 110v or 220v, but the plug on the other end of the cord will be different for 110v or 220v. The 220v cord plug is also different depending on what country you live in.
In any case, the Volt charger limits the current to around 11 amps, which charges the car in 6.5 hours at 110v and in 3 hours at 220v.
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January 25th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Dave G #85
exackery
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January 25th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
The power cord in the picture is a 30 amp 120 volt cord like Motorhomes use. It probably is representative to mean that the final design will need to be overdesigned to carry the watts, The 220 volt cord would be a similar size with the blades at different orientation.
The picture is probably meant to convey that a heavy duty cord is what will be needed, but the great thing about GM is that they are always looking out for your cost to replace anything. Those 30 amp extension cords for the Motorhomes only cost about 24 bucks, so something similar in construction is not a thing to worrry about.
The other neat thing that GM might be able to do if there is a second onboard battery *option* to be made design-available is that your utility company may be interested in buying from you (for about an hour or so for several afternoon/evenings in hot months), some reserve energy from the pack (vehicle to grid), from that *second* onboard battery pack so that the utility may not have to do two expensive things; 1. Fire-up very expensive stand-by generation, and,
2. If there can be a very widespread availability of reserve, short term energy which would be considered extremely reliable, then they may be able to *not* build expensive additional power plant capacity in order to handle “peak-demand” for short periods of time during the hottest summer afternoons and evenings.
If you have, say, 4 or 6 kilowatts of spare energy available in your second pack, (which could be scheduled via the ICE cutting in sooner on the several unusually-high “peak-demand” Summer
“scortcher” days a year), then the utilities may be intested in underwriting a part of the cost of the *second* optional battery pack. Many of us who work in the heat of the Summer start the day at 6 am and finish at 3 pm.to remain out of the heat. Residual capacity in an optional pack could be sent back to the grid without any impact on a main traction pack. Also, if there is additional capacity, say just 4 more kilowatts, available for the EV mode, then the depth of discharge could be far less on a daily basis as well.
All this would be easily and completely automatically performed.
Dan Petit Austin TX
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January 25th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Lithium battery’s will not get cheaper by mass production
It’s the material that makes it so darn expensive..
I will just wait for the “rechargeable zinc-air” battery. Looks Very Very promissing. But is still such a young battery.
They had a big investment from RWE wich is a huge electric-generating company here in europe. And lots of other investments. But they need time..
http://www.revolttechnology.com/
Zinc-air is freaking cheap. And has very high energy density. Much higher then lithium. But was still non rechargeable for a long time..
I hope all cars will be able to drive on Zinc-Air battery’s in the future
When it is a grown up technology like lithium-ion…..
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January 25th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Lithium is not an issue for availability. And never will be. The element is just too common.
Interestingly enough the USA was the major producer of lithium and could be again as demand surges. It was just that they discovered some fabulously rich sources of brines in Chile, and these are now being exploited.
The gentleman is correct Li-Ion may not be the ultimate battery chemistry, But for the first time, the chemistry is good enough for the electric car application. It will suffice.
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January 25th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Herman #88
Zinc-Air is not that new and the power density thus far is far too low to be the main power source. It or somthing similar is a long term possiblity to replace the ICE, though.
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January 25th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
#89 stas peterson Says: “The gentleman is correct Li-Ion may not be the ultimate battery chemistry, But for the first time, the chemistry is good enough for the electric car application. It will suffice.”
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Yes, this is a really good point. We should focus on Li/Ion first. Once Li/Ion car batteries go mass market, then the motivation to find better solutions will be obvious, and battery technology investment money will come flooding in.
So ironically, the fastest way to bring other better battery technologies to market is to focus on Li/Ion. In other words, Li/Ion has what we need to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, the free market will accelerate it.
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January 25th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
#88 Herman Says: “Lithium battery’s will not get cheaper by mass production. It’s the material that makes it so darn expensive..”
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Does anyone happen to know what’s involved in re-cycling an old Li/Ion battery into a new one? This would have a big impact on the cost and availability of Lithium.
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January 26th, 2009 at 2:37 am
My questions would be concerning battery maintenance procedure. Is it possible to unpack battery and replace individual cells? This procedure should be established in case so incredible battery price.
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January 26th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Darius Says: “My questions would be concerning battery maintenance procedure. Is it possible to unpack battery and replace individual cells?”
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Local dealers will replace the entire battery pack through the big T-shaped hole in the bottom of the chassis. The warranty on the battery is 10-years or 150,000 miles.
Faulty battery packs will then be shipped a central facility for servicing. Individual cells are welded together into groups, so I imagine a whole group would have to be replaced, but I’m not sure. I’m also not sure how they recover the Lithium from worn-out or faulty cells.
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February 5th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
That is the sexiest car picture I have ever seen. The standard plug, usable in hundreds of millions of existing electrical outlets, as is, makes it so.
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June 24th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Does anybody know what the cycle count is for these battery cells? 2500 sounds about right, from what I’ve heard.
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