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Chevy Spark and Orlando on Way to US, Will Orlando Get a Voltec Drivetrain?

January 20th, 2009 | Posted in: Voltec

At the Detroit Auto Show GM finally announced plans to bring two concept cars to reality, and bring them to the USA.

The Chevy Spark is the production name that will be given to the mini-car previously known as the Chevy Beat. Over the months we heard it was coming then that it might not. Now GM has offcially announced that the Spark will arrive in the US in 2011. It is expected to get 50 MPG fuel efficiency on highway driving.

The second vehicle they said has also been greenlighted for a US launch in 2011 is the Chevy Orlando. This is an MPV or multipurpose vehicle that will be built on the compact delta platform, the same one used in the Chevy Cruze and the Chevy Volt. The vehicle is built for diversity and utility and is able to carry 7 people. This class of vehicle is sometimes referred to as a microvan, though it will not have sliding doors I have been told.

Jon Lauckner who is GMs VP of global program management was asked whether that car would also get the Voltec extended-range electric vehicle drivetrain.

Lauckner said “I would point out that the Chevrolet Orlando is built on the same basic vehicle architecture and component set as the Chevrolet Volt, so if it makes sense, it’s certainly something we can take a look at.”

Not exactly an overwhelming yes, but hey you never know.

Source (Automotive News )

Posted by: Lyle

95 Responses to “Chevy Spark and Orlando on Way to US, Will Orlando Get a Voltec Drivetrain?”

Dave G Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:25 am

This is the car I want!!! A Voltec Orlando would:

1) Allow me to carry skis and friends to the slopes.
2) Fit lots of stuff from Home Depot.
3) Give a nice place for our dog in the back.
4) Allow me to buy a big screen TV at the local wholesale store and bring it home myself.
5) Take lots of friends to a concert or football game.
6) Allow me to carry my guitar and amp to gigs in a small car.
and lots of other stuff.

This would be a useful car!

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k-dawg Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:42 am

The Chevy Spark looked pretty nice in person. I didnt like the green color, but it looked roomy compared to the photos. The Orlando looks just like the pictures… nothing surpising. I’m not sure how much range you would get out of a 16kwh battery in the Orlando.

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statik Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:52 am

Side note: Fiat now owns 35% of Chrysler…and Fiat paid what? Free. (This should give GM a good sense of what the brands they have under ’strategic review’ are worth).

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090120/eu_italy_fiat_chrysler.html

(This means that Chrysler is now NOT a domestic automaker, as Fiat owns 35% and Daimler owns 19.9% for total foreign ownership of 54.9%…can we let them die now?)

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lunoir Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:53 am

I know of some people that would jump on this possible Voltec Orlando since they find the Volt too small and their current SUV too thirsty…
NPNS!

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jabroni Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:54 am

So GM can crank these cars out in 2 years, but it takes 4 years for the Volt?

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Dave G Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:55 am

Here’s the chevy web site for the Orlando
http://www.chevrolet.com/orlando/

The third picture shows why I like this car.

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Jim in PA Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:07 am

Step aside Pontiac/Toyota Vibe, and let the Orlando take over! It would be a great family car. I looked at the Vibe a few years ago, but that weak little Toyota engine – yeesh. Actually I think it was just a high-revving engine that wasn’t coupled well with the transmission for optimal performance. Either way, it’s one of the reasons you’ll never hear me gush about how awesome a Corrolla is. But I digress…

Here is the $1,000,000 dollar question; If the Orlando is on the Volt platform, then how will GM get around the backseat floor hump that eliminates the Volt’s 5th seat? Here is my suggestion if they can’t get rid of the hump; put in all the appropriate belts and LATCH mechanisms to make this backseat center area perfect for kid’s car seats (which don’t require floor space). Of course, this is predicated on the assumption that it is safe to sit junior on top of the battery…

Suggestion #2: Give an AWD option for the Orlando. It shouldn’t eat up too much battery charge as long as it is on only “when needed” (i.e. activated by differential slip). Then you’ll have a family hit.

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Matt Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:09 am

@ #5

It takes a lot longer to build up a car from scratch and develop a supply base, than it does to take the existing platform, change the sheet metal and get it to market. So, yes.

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Dave G Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:12 am

#3 statik Says: “This means that Chrysler is now NOT a domestic automaker, as Fiat owns 35% and Daimler owns 19.9% for total foreign ownership of 54.9%…can we let them die now?”
————————————————————————————–
I wouldn’t mind too much if Chrysler went chapter 7. They’re a small player. By March 31st, if the financial system is starting to work again, the market could probably tolerate the disappearance of Chrysler.

Letting Chrysler go under would also send a clear message that auto bailouts are not a forgone conclusion, like Lehman Brothers was for the financial sector. It would also be a wakeup call for America, having the big 2 instead of the big 3.

But if the economy is in similar or worse shape than it is now on March 31st, then it may be better to let Chrysler go on for a little while until things improve, otherwise it could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

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Jim in PA Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:20 am

It looks like the Orlando will be on the same platform as the Cruze, but it will replace the HHR in function. So here’s the big question that matters to shameless nationalists like me; will it be assembled in Ramos (Mexico) like the HRR or Lordstown (Ohio) like the Cruze? If the Cruz is a big hit, I can’t imagine Lordstown having the capacity for both. Man, I hope it’s not Mexico…

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Jean-Charles Jacquemin Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:28 am

An electric Spark ?

Let me repeat what Troy Clarke said to the LA Times :

Source :
http://www.latimes.com/classified/au…,4008125.story

“We’ve been thinking about dipping our toe into this market for a while now,” said Troy Clarke, GM’s president of North America. He predicts that the Spark, which will go on sale in Europe next year prior to coming stateside in 2011, could be a big success.

“It could be a 90,000 or more volume vehicle,” he said, adding that the company could consider an electric version.”

If there is an Voltec version of the Spark, IMHO it could seriously compete with the mini E or the Smart ED.

JC NPNS

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HyperMiler Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:30 am

Orlando is just a rebadged Daewoo Rezzo, like Daewoo Lacetti(aka Cruze), and Beat(aka Spark).

Unlike Lacetti/Cruze, Rezzo and Beat will be imported directly from Daewoo. As of now Daewoo has no plans to use Voltec drivetrain, thus it is unlikely Rezzo/Orlando would have PHEV.

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Dave G Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:33 am

#7 Jim in PA Says: “Here is the $1,000,000 dollar question; If the Orlando is on the Volt platform, then how will GM get around the backseat floor hump that eliminates the Volt’s 5th seat?”
————————————————————————————–
I’m assuming that a Voltec Orlando would be a 6-seater, not a 7-seater like the regular Orlando. I don’t think you could fit a child’s seat over the hump and still be able to fold the seats down.

But still, 6 seats is a lot, and the cargo area when the seats are folded down is impressive.

Since the Volt and Orlando will use the same platform, it should be relatively easy to port the Volt drive train over to the Orlando. As GM said earlier, a little bit of extra weight shouldn’t matter too much for AER or MPG, since the extra energy required to accelerate is recovered with regenerative braking. Acceleration for the Orlando would be a little slower, but by all accounts, the Volt is on the sporty side, so a Voltec Orlando should have better than average acceleration, much better than the Pontiac Vibe.

The real issue will be the aerodynamics. A higher Cd will cut into the AER and MPG figures at highway speeds. But for around town, a Voltec Orlando should be about as good as the Volt.

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statik Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am

I wonder about the Orlando’s viability in a tough NA market.

Originally, it was intented as a international brand)…affectionately known as the ‘Delta MPV-7′ at the time, being built both overseas and in Michigan concurrently. The Michigan plant being the same plant as the Volt (Hamtramck), but that was canned months ago.

Logically, (unless there has been a press release I am unaware of), this vehicle will now be produced in Europe (Germany or Poland…can’t remember, so don’t quote me, lol) and then shipped across the pond, which brings an obviously price premium to do so…and all the dancing that is required for compliance here.

My hunch is that GM just wants to showcase it over here, and it will not be priced competitively, at least not in any way that enables them to sell close to the quantites they currently sell in the category (looking at you Vibe).

I think they will price it at a ‘reasonable’ markup and whatever they sell…they sell, and consider it a +1 sale to whatever the Euro-direct production is.

(The Spark also suffers the same inherent flaw, but because of its diminutive size and its place as a ‘entry’ level vehicle, the extra 10-15% cost will not be as much of a hindrance…and should be offset by its superior mileage offerings, of which GM has no current NA peer as a competing model).

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MCD Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:37 am

First time posting here, With a name like Spark I would think GM must have plans for an erev or bev version at some point soon.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:56 am

#15 MCD
Your first post was a good one. It is tough to come up with relevent comments that have not already been stated.

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Ray Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:58 am

2011….2012…20??… GM you need cars like these (AND THE VOLT) on the market now !. Everything you are showing…great looking vehicles…the Cadi concept is great too… But…. what are you doing right NOW…to get yourself out of your cash crunch predicament… ? It’s like painting a rosey picture of how it all can be when we get through this crisis… but at the same time …you keep maxing out that old credit card… and forget adding the AWD drive to the Volt type cars… Some of us “old” guys have driven all their lives (me 40 years so far) without the benifit of AWD and have never had a need for it…And yes I live in a climate with 4 actual seasons. You just have to have (oh what is that word) “driving skills”
What Car can I buy THIS YEAR (besides the Malibu hybrid which is over priced at most Canadian dealerships) that help me get away from the Gas & Oil companies.. ?

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Tall Pete Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 10:08 am

#3 Statik

From the link you gave, I don’t read that Fiat got 35% of Chrysler for free. I read that they did not commit to invest cash in Chrysler but they will provide access to platforms and technologies, which has a value, although it’s not cash. But then again, how much would be worth a share in Chrysler nowadays if they were public ? How much for a share in a company that can go bankrupt in 3 months or so ? Would you invest your money in Chrysler right now ?

In the short term, I guess Chrysler now have a source of new small and efficient cars they can rebadge and sell immediately (next year, probably) until they bring the EREV or REEV to market, should they endure that long.

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Redeye Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 10:41 am

Looks like room for a 4X8 sheet in there. If so I’ll take one.

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k-dawg Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am

#17 Ray
What Car can I buy THIS YEAR (besides the Malibu hybrid which is over priced at most Canadian dealerships) that help me get away from the Gas & Oil companies.. ?
———–

Buy any GM car that gets over 30mpg. There’s a lot of them to choose from.

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Detfan Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:03 am

With the new 2010 Equinox reaching dealers in a few months, GM will have 21 models that get 30 MPG or more, most of any manufacturer. Heck, it looks like GM will be the company with the most ICE cars getting over 40 MPG. (Cruze, Spark, Orlando, etc.)

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Ray Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:04 am

# 20 K-dawg.. I currently have a 2007 Malibu MAXX to which I have made about $900.00 in Mods (air intake and exhaust) and currently average (in warm weather) 33 MPG (Canadian) (combined city/highway) and 41 MPG (Canadian) strictly highway… I want better right from the get go..
I upgrade every couple of years because I am a high miler with my job.. (car is 1.5 years old now and has over 80 K KMS).
A Volt would be ideal… Just get me one this year and I will be happy..To tell the truth… right now I am going to take a serious look at the 2010 Prius (out later this spring) and 2010 Fusion Hybrid (out later this summer).

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N Riley Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:05 am

We can only hope these two new vehicles will help GM survive. The Volt by itself cannot do so.

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Texas Tea Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:13 am

Black Gold is at $35.80/barrel as of 10am today.
At these prices GM might not need a 50 MPG toy car, especially since sales of pickups and SUVs have increased in January.

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Cautious Fan Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:23 am

I’ve got 3 kids. Definitely interested in a 7 seater. Not sure if I’d be caught dead driving an “Orlando” though. Hopefully they’ll get a better name.

The minivan group is more price sensitive though. Selling a EREV minivan will be difficult until battery prices come down.

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noel park Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:30 am

To echo a number of others, 2011 seems like a lifetime away. How do we get there from here?

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DonC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:47 am

This is possible since the Orlando is built on a variation of the Delta platform, the same platform as the Cruze and the Volt. However, its curb weight is 500 pounds more, and the three extra bodies and their stuff would add even more weight.

Probably wouldn’t work for a while. My guess is that you have Voltec I for the Volt, Voltec II for the Volt and the Converj, and Voltec III for the Volt, Converj, and Orlando – EV.

If gas is $8/gallon they’ll all be hits. At $2/gallon even the Volt will struggle. Pricing is the key, so we’ll see how much fortitude Obama and the Democrats have. (The point of post #24 and also #25 “Selling a EREV minivan will be difficult until battery prices come down.” Or gas go up, same effect).

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nasaman Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:05 pm

New car sales for 2008 showed the crossover VUE, 1 of 5 new or nearly-new Saturn models for 2008, outsold all of the other 4 Saturn models ….COMBINED. This to me is strong evidence that Americans are NOT READY to abandon the cargo volume & practicality of an SUV for a small sedan, and it’s why I’ve so enthusiastically promoted the Caddy Provoq concept (a crossover using the VUE chassis) since it was first shown in Jan 2007. The Orlando concept, with a mildly-modified version of the Volt drive train, would be an excellent addition to GM’s E-REV product line ….and it should sell like hotcakes!

I’ve always been baffled that so many complain about losing a cramped middle seat in the rear of the Volt — I FAR prefer its 4 bucket seats to the conventional 2 buckets & a rear bench!

And regarding the likelihood of a 6-seat layout in an E-REV Orlando to accommodate the battery, I’m mystifyed that few here seem to appreciate the appeal 6 bucket seats would have by contrast to the conventional 2-bucket, 2-bench seat layout …..the pizazz of 4 additional buckets totally outshines the boredom of 2 conventional benches! ….and the Orlando with 6 bucket seats WILL STILL HAVE THE SAME CARGO CAPACITY as the old approach!!!

….So if GM produces an E-REV version of the Orlando I’ll buy one in a heartbeat!!!

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DonC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm

The electrification of transportation made it into the Inaugural Address.

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k-dawg Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:23 pm

#22 Ray
If you are trying to beat 41mpg.. you dont have nearly as many options. Take a look at the new Honda Insight.

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Luke Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:32 pm

If the Orlando will run on electric power and carry a 4′x8′ sheet of plywood, then I’d be sold. No need for a pickup — especially if it offers all-wheel drive[0].

BTW, it’s OK to call the machine a station wagon. I just turned 30, and minivans and SUVs are the machines that have the stigma of being those irritating and excessive family vehicles that neither me nor my lady would be caught dead in — but wagons are kind of quirky, neat, and useful. A minuscule distinction in real life, I know, but these things can feel important.

[0] My lady thinks all-wheel-drive is a great idea, after I demonstrated a power-slide in my pickup in an icy parking lot. “But this really is fun, dear!” “Quit it, and buy a four-wheel drive, dammit!” But, alas, I measured the rear cargo area in a Subaru Outback, and it was 47 1/2″. Some sheets of MDF are 49″ wide, and most plywood is 48″, with some slop — so it just won’t work for me. Plus, Subaru isn’t making an electric car yet.

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Anthony BC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

From “heartbeats” to “hotcakes”, this “Tony” would buy the “Orlando and” especially if it could be electrically driven every “Dawn”! I’ll be coming down to the dealership this Spring to purchase!

If not, I’ll just buy a Insight @~$20K since I (and probably most) can’t wait 2 years to buy something to start saving on gas.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:39 pm

I just heard Obama’s speech.
He is going to push green technology.
I hope he follows through with that.
I think everything he does is going to be difficult with the Congress he has inherited.

I hope these cars above will be electric.

I would love for the Orlando to be AWD or 4WD.

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statik Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 12:58 pm

#24 Texas Tea said:

Black Gold is at $35.80/barrel as of 10am today.
At these prices GM might not need a 50 MPG toy car, especially since sales of pickups and SUVs have increased in January.
=================================

The market (and the price you are now paying at the pump) does not reflect the March contract which is much greater than $40. The February contract expires today.

Side note: December futures are closing in on $60…so the market is expecting a pretty dramatic rally.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 1:13 pm

All the economic number crunchers on EV vs Hybrids vs ICE cars are assuming an identical service life of a vehicle. What if the life of an EV is 300K miles with just a battery change?

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Jackson Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 1:28 pm

“Spark” minus p & k ; plus m & t = “Smart”

Now go back and look at that picture again.

Mind you, the Spark looks better, even in blechh-green, than the Smart on it’s best day, but man that thing is tiny. 50 mpg better be in city driving.

If it could be made E-REV, it would have quite a following; but I don’t expect we’ll see it before the “modularization” of Voltec batteries in MKII or III, which would allow it to carry something smaller than the Volt and Converj “T” pack (and it would need a smaller genset, too).

Don’t wait for it. Waiting for Volt will be trying enough.

Yes, an E-REV Orlando is a good idea provided it can still get 40 AER (perhaps with improvements at the MKII battery level, it can).

Speaking of “how do we get there,” new pics of the 2010 Prius have been released. It does look considerably less like a nerd’s shoe. Of course, it is still a plugless Prius …

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keitwo Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 1:42 pm

would be great if Chrysler would bring over the Fiat Cinquecento …. and FAST.

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charlie h Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

#21, Detfan, “With the new 2010 Equinox reaching dealers in a few months, GM will have 21 models that get 30 MPG or more, most of any manufacturer. Heck, it looks like GM will be the company with the most ICE cars getting over 40 MPG. (Cruze, Spark, Orlando, etc.)”

That’s a real stretch, considering they have absolutely nothing today that EPA tests at 40mpg. And all those “21 models that get 30mpg or more” could better be described as, “21 models that barely eke out 30mpg.”

GM’s best current effort, the Cobalt, only gets impressive mileage when equipped with a stick. Is that even 10% of their actual vehicles sold? An automatic Cobalt, IN MY EXPERIENCE, barely scrapes 30mpg in relatively conservative highway driving (60-65mph). I might have bought one, except for the mediocre fuel economy.

As of today, GM is playing “catch up” with press releases but they’re doing it against moving targets. The Prius will probably set a new standard for mid-size vehicle fuel economy and many people will embrace the new Honda Insight.

Two-year development cycles to get competitive vehicles on the road means that GM is going to soak up a lot of your tax money before they deliver a profit.

#3, Statik, “This means that Chrysler is now NOT a domestic automaker, as Fiat owns 35% and Daimler owns 19.9% for total foreign ownership of 54.9%…can we let them die now?”

Yes!! Please!!

And thanks for pointing that out.

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ccombs Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 2:14 pm

E-REving the Orlando would be sooo huge. While it won’t get the highway mileage of the Volt, the great thing is that this car will be used more in the city at low speeds, where aero effects are relatively unimportant. This will be the first true EV family car that could be a success, and prove to Americans that “real” cars can be EVs too. I really hope GM goes this route in a couple years when battery size goes down so that they can still fit 7 passengers.

#5 — Ummm…duh. Spark and Orlando have 0 radical new technologies. They just use small IC engines and are mostly based on existing platforms thus take very little extra engineering to develop. It is not bad, but rather shockingly good, that the Volt is taking *only* 4 years.

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Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

“Fiat now owns 35% of Chrysler”

That should settle the quality discussions…

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DonC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 2:55 pm

# 34 statik

Are you looking at Brent? NYMEX is more like a tad above $40 for March and a couple of bucks above $50 for December.

Of course whether they’re accurate or not depends on how well a crowd of people can judge how soon and how well the economy will recover. At this point oil is probably as tied to housing prices as anything!

I think I’ll start being like Cato: OPEC delenda est. Need oil taxes.

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statik Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 3:01 pm

#41 DonC

The market is moving quickly…when I had my quote up the march contract was around $42.50, lol.

I’m loving this ‘Obama rally’ today on the inauguration, heeh. DOW -300, NASDAQ -80 and S&P off 40. I’m thinking about day trading some Canadian bank stocks, maybe GE. I’m itching to start trading/playing this thing…maybe thats a good sign? I dunno.

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Jim in PA Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

#38 Charlie H

This past summer I rented a new Cobalt with auto transmission and drove about 1000 miles around PA, WV, and VA. According to the digital mileage calculator on the dash, I averaged 35.8 mpg for the whole trip. So obviously your experiences have differed greatly from mine. I was quite impressed by the Cobalt, and I would encourage anyone looking for a fuel efficient car to buy one. Furthermore, modern automatic transmissions get mileage that only the most skilled manual stick driver can beat handily (no pun intended). Manual transmissions aren’t really worth it anymore for the purpose of fuel savings except for obsessed hyper-milers.

So now I will engage in an excercise that Insight/Prius fans enjoy taking against the Volt, and I will use it back against them. Let’s call it the “gas savings game.”

A $20,000 Honda Insight at 43 mpg driven 12,000 mi/yr with $3.00 gas (yes it will get back up there soon) will cost you $837/year in gas. A $16,000 Chevy Cobalt at 36 mpg, driven 12,000 mi/yr with $3.00 gas will cost you $1000/year in gas. That is an annual gas savings of $163 if you buy the Insight, and all you have to do is spend a mere $4000 more up front! Why, that’s only a 24-year return on investment! Ahem… not worth crowing about, folks.

As you can see, the key to fuel savings isn’t moving from 36 mpg to 43 mpg. The key is getting people out of their 15-20 mpg clunkers and into the 36-43 mpg cars. (Or getting into a 150 mpg Volt, which admittedly will never pay for itself, but will at least act as a large steel middle finger to OPEC).

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noel park Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 3:18 pm

#40 Fahrvergnugen Fanboy:

LOL. “Fix It Again Tony”

Actually, we have had 2 Fiats in our family, and 850 Spyder and a Strada. Both great fun to drive, if you could keep all of the parts bolted on. Although GM products weren’t all that great in the 1970-1980 time frame either, if memory serves.

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Jackson Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm

Fahrvergnugen Fanboy:

Are you still liking your Fit?

… speaking of ‘how do we get there.’ The little Honda is currently at the top of my non-hybrid list for a near-term replacement (should one be necessary).

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GXT Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

22. Ray wrote:
I upgrade every couple of years because I am a high miler with my job.. (car is 1.5 years old now and has over 80 K KMS).
A Volt would be ideal… Just get me one this year and I will be happy..To tell the truth… right now I am going to take a serious look at the 2010 Prius (out later this spring) and 2010 Fusion Hybrid (out later this summer).
=====================================================

It seems that the Volt is the exact opposite of ‘ideal’ for you. You drive almost 150 days on average. You’ll probably only go 20-25% of your KMs on electric. Plus the Volt is going to experience HUGE depreciation due to new competition and cost decreases in batteries. Am I missing something?

If you are considering the Prius, you should take a look at the Insight.

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DonC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 4:23 pm

Statik – Since you’re an EV fan I’d share these numbers with you to see if you can mend the error of your ways! LOL

I was fooling around with some numbers on the EV-1, and the miles/kWh on the Volt and iMiev aren’t that different. What’s interesting here is that while the EV-1 had a rated range of about 90 miles, the guy I knew who had one got about 55 miles (lots of hills). This seemed to be the real world number.

Also, as one person who worked on the EV-1 program noted: “Running the air conditioning or heater could halve that range. Even running the headlights reduced it by 10%.” http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/ev1_criticism.php

Basically this is why EVs without a range extender aren’t ready for prime time. Battery packs have gotten lighter but that’s about it. Motors have gotten only marginally more efficient; AC units and heaters have gotten only marginally more efficient; and tires have only marginally less rolling resistance. At the same time the laws of physics regarding weight and aerodynamic drag haven’t changed one iota. So what we’re looking at is more or less about the same type of range issues that beset the EV-1.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:10 pm

hi statik #42,

“DOW -300, NASDAQ -80 and S&P off 40″

_________________________

I expected the ‘honeymoon effect’ to contain today’s S&P price drop to about 6-10 points. The main drag on The Market is not “the banks” as the talking heads are hyping. It is the financial service industry. This makes sense as people can’t afford high priced advice and over paid middle men right now.

President Obama should stay the course with his proposed jobs and infrastructure plan. This will produce a slow and steady growth line which has a REAL base under it. An 11 month incline of about 8% is possible if his rebuilding proposal stays on track.

No more TARP. No more war. No more Wall Street injections. Just good old fashion hard work for real money. A period of slow steady growth will bring buyers back to the car market.

Obama mentioned energy independence today, “Wind, solar, and from the earth”. Does ‘from the earth’ mean geothermal or clean coal?

yes we can?

=D~

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charlie h Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:13 pm

#43, Jim in PA, The fuel economy readout on the dashboard was far more optimistic than what the gas pump had to say about the situation. The dashboard overestimated the Cobalt’s actual fuel economy by something like 3mpg. You should make sure yours is calibrated corrrectly. I never trust them until i’ve verified with a few fillups.

By the way, the car I usually drive is EPA rated at 29mpg. On a recent long driving trip, I averaged 30.

“A $16,000 Chevy Cobalt at 36 mpg, driven 12,000 mi/yr with $3.00 gas will cost you $1000/year in gas. That is an annual gas savings of $163 if you buy the Insight, and all you have to do is spend a mere $4000 more up front!”

You’re comparing highway only. The Insight fuel economy in city driving will also be in the 40s, where the Cobalt drops to the high 20s. You should recalculate to the EPA overall estimate.

Where I live, which has an inordinate number of long stoplights along 40-45mph roads, any real hybrid will pay for itself faster than most projections because nobody manages anywhere near EPA city fuel economy… it’s always worse. A hybrid that shuts off the engine when it isn’t needed is going to save a lot of fuel. And wear and tear on the engine, too.

“As you can see, the key to fuel savings isn’t moving from 36 mpg to 43 mpg. The key is getting people out of their 15-20 mpg clunkers and into the 36-43 mpg cars.”

True enough. Also walk, bike, car-pool, use the bus, live closer to work, etc. Arranging a car-pool involves no cash down and just two-person car-pool not only will nearly cut fuel consumption in half, it will also cut the annual miles driven on the vehicle, preserving its value.

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Brewster Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

Back to the Orlando:

Although I like the look, it doesn’t seem particularly aerodynamic.

I suspect that if it goes into production as an E-Rev, there will be enough changes to the design to put off many who get their heart set on that exact prototype.

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Zach Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

It sure is cool to see more cars come out that exceed 30MPG HWY, lol (or are at least expected to).

The Orlando looks awesome, but I don’t think I would ever need what it has to offer. The Spark looks alright, but I doubt it’ll have the performance that I’m looking for if it gets 50MPG, lol. Who knows though… if it can get 10-60 in like 10 seconds, I wouldn’t complain.

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noel park Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

#11 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:

A Voltec Spark would be perfect for my commuting. Sign me up.

#49 charlie h:

All true, IMHO.

My wife has cut back her driving about 50%, partly because we did move closer to her work. I am driving about 20% less, plus carpooling with my brother 18 miles each way in my S10. It really makes a difference.

Unless and until GM comes out with a car we can’t resist, we will just keep our trusty Chevys going. I think that’s the message from a lot of people to all the car companies, not just GM.

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Jake Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:47 pm

I hope the Spark gets 50mpg on the highway, but that sounds a little optimistic to me (like so many mileage quotes for unreleased cars).

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

hi noel park #52,

“I am driving about 20% less”

__________________________

Same here. When it started to be $15 in the tank twice a week I rethought my view on casual driving. Far fewer trips to town. Far less “disposable income” being flushed at local businesses. Yes, this is a contributing factor to the economic slow down pressure we are now facing. Who do we thank? Big Oil.

Look at the bright side. If your truck is parked out front, you aren’t fighting for a parking space downtown. Big Oil…eat sand! Bring on the E-REV’s.

=D~

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GXT Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 6:15 pm

49. Charlie h,

Plus if the reviews are anything to go by it looks like the Insight will get 50’s easily, 60’s in the right conditions. C&D drove the snot out of it as hard as they could and still got low 40s.

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DonC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 6:20 pm

On the financial front, France, with a GDP smaller than California, just announced a $7.7B bailout for the French automobile industry. Far more countries to follow no doubt.

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GXT Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 6:27 pm

The first step is to admit you have a problem.

That does not mean pretending that a bunch of rebadges that barely get 30 MPG HIGHWAY shows how excellent you are because there are “so many of them”. This also applies to a suite of generally crappy hybrids. It also doesn’t mean promising “40MPG” or “50MPG” in “2011″ or “2012″.

They started commercials for the Volt in 2007 and they can’t get out a good small car until 2010-11? (assuming they manage even that!)

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Calgaryvolt Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 6:30 pm

An E-rev Orlando would be a great idea. It would make sense for it be produced as a 5 seat version where the battery is placed under the rear seats and under the rear cargo floor (may require the spare tire to be replaced with run flats or a can of fix-a-flat.)

The real problem is that the market will likely not embrace the high cost associated with the technology. A $20,000 to $30,000 Orlando would sell (much like a $15,000 to $25,000 Cruze) but when you add $10,000 to $15,000 to the price for the E-rev powertrain you really start to lose costumers due to cost.
A more cost effective hybrid system would be a better bet.

Bring out the Volt, test it in the real world and see what the market is like for about 5 years before planning on releasing other vehicles with the technology. If the customers start telling you they would buy a Volt but would prefer a wagon (CUV) type vehicle then it might be an easier choice to bring it into production.

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charlie h Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 6:55 pm

#52, Noel Park, #54, Dave K,

You bet. Paid for plus car-pooling saves the planet, stymies oil dictators AND puts money in your pocket. It’s a win-win. The only possible downside might come from terminally incompatible musical tastes.

I did a lot of biking. All my fair weather commuting and any errand that didn’t involve moving something too big to take on the bicycle.

Biking’s other benefit is losing weight and feeling better.

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noel park Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

#54 Dave K:

Yeah, in my case a lot of that “disposable income” has gone for Chinese junk at Home Depot and Harbor Freight which I think I just have to have, and then hardly ever use. I’m trying to break that bad habit as well, for all sorts of obvious reasons.

#59 charlie h:

We just compromise by turning off the radio and chit-chatting about how to save the world, LOL. If we can just get President Obama to take a meeting with us, we will lay it all out for him!!

I won’t bore you with my personal experiences of bicycle crashes, but do me one big favor. Wear your helmet. We need all the good bloggers we can get.

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 7:14 pm

Showing what will be when it should’ve been what is available now doesn’t do much.
Why deliver another same ol car Spark with an ICE?
That should’ve been last year in January. Voltec Tech should’ve been this year. I’m still waiting.

Just buld my Volt DANGIT!

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George W. Bush Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

Wall Street just tanked after Obama sworn in. This is the biggest Inauguration Day drop in HISTORY (that’s 112 years !). The Tax and Spend Democrats are off to a great start. They could possibly set GM and the rest of this country into an economic slide that will take decades to recover from. It time to put all your money in your pillow and mattress, much safer than any bank these days.

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statik Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 7:46 pm

#47 DonC siad:

Statik – Since you’re an EV fan I’d share these numbers with you to see if you can mend the error of your ways! LOL

I was fooling around with some numbers on the EV-1, and the miles/kWh on the Volt and iMiev aren’t that different. What’s interesting here is that while the EV-1 had a rated range of about 90 miles, the guy I knew who had one got about 55 miles (lots of hills). This seemed to be the real world number.

Also, as one person who worked on the EV-1 program noted: “Running the air conditioning or heater could halve that range. Even running the headlights reduced it by 10%.” http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/ev1_criticism.php

Basically this is why EVs without a range extender aren’t ready for prime time. Battery packs have gotten lighter but that’s about it. Motors have gotten only marginally more efficient; AC units and heaters have gotten only marginally more efficient; and tires have only marginally less rolling resistance. At the same time the laws of physics regarding weight and aerodynamic drag haven’t changed one iota. So what we’re looking at is more or less about the same type of range issues that beset the EV-1.
===========================

Hehe, you’ll never get me Don!

I will note that you are right, most of the real world tests I’ve seen on the i-Miev are coming up in the 80 mile-ish range, rather than 100.

Although, I have a feeling the person driving can effect the range just based on personal bias. If you really want to hammer that number down..you can probably get it down to 60, and conversely if you really want to over exaggerate it, you could probably baby it, spurning all conveniences like A/C, heat, radio etc., and get 110.

As for getting me to ’see the error of my ways,’ it is not likely, as I would buy a EV if it only got 50 miles range before it is dead without hesitation.

/I’m still on the ‘whoever gets it out first wins by business’ mantra…whether that be extended or pure

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 7:53 pm

hi George W. Bush #62,

“It time to put all your money in your pillow and mattress”

_________________________

George, would you tell us your location? I am guessing Kazakhstan.

=D~

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mjay Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:05 pm

I’d do the orlando before I’d do the volt.

(Quote)
koz Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

George W Bush (cute) #62

I usually try to refrain from commenting on the hecklers and haters but your idiocy is irrepressible. I can only hope your moronic ranting does infected many others. This is infinitely more dangerous than whatever your brain cell has fixated on.

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canehdian Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

The Orlando looks promising. but why must they have the stupid square backs. I realize there’s a third row that goes like right to the back, fine, but you could at least round it some more.
I think the ford flex is the ugliest thing out there today because of this same feature. (it’s MUCH more boxy in the flex, though)

(Quote)
koz Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:21 pm

Statik #63

“Baby steps…”

True, but perhaps a little bigger than baby. I’ld say somewhere between the wheels vendor and the prototype. It will be reassuring to see the first one unveiled.

(Quote)
rschmitz Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

yeah the orlando fits 7 but do they need to be 5 children under 10? I owned a “5″ pasanger focus for years and had to get rid of it because the kids didn’t have leg room as they got older.
Mini vans don’t fit 7 adults comfortably so dont think a microvan is the answer. I would buy it as a 5 passanger with the extra cargo room. just don’t shove as many seats in as possible and think its comfy.
I traded in the focus for an HHR and love the layout. but only as a 5 passanger.

(Quote)
JEC Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 9:42 pm

#63 Statik

Ditto. (but I need some economic justification to make any leap)

(Quote)
Redeye Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 10:39 pm

#31 Luke

Yes if it will haul a 4X8 sheet means most of us would not need a pickup. I could sell my pickup.

Then change the name. Orlando no good.
And put in a big enough battery for at least 40 miles.

(Quote)
Casey Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 11:23 pm

Don’t forget what, NO PLUG NO SALE means. The way to oil dependency

Don’t forget what, DONT BUY NEW GAS CARS MAKE EM MAKE EVS means, the way to all types of EVs

Don’t worry about gas prices up or down IMHO people are waiting for something to get away from gas cars. I know a lot of people that don’t want the prices of gas to govern their way of life again

GM, stop the madness, just get the Volt wheels on the road

NO PLUG NO SALE, LJGTVWOTR, DBNGCMEME, (my house)=D~~~(my volt) .#33,772

(Quote)
Edwin Mang Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 12:37 am

I like the Orlando with the volt drive train . But I have some thing for GM to try . Take an old neer dead Lithium Ion battery charge it for a few mimutes backward (reverse the charge direction )
The Question is does this restore the battery ? At least to some extent .

God Bless From

Tiger

(Quote)
LB Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 1:10 am

You want to make $? You want to sell cars? Put the Orlando out with the Volt drive train. It’s a car that most families could use. Don’t wait. This will sell like crazy and could leave Volt in the dust.

They are both good looking cars. Smart seems very small but can compete against the super small Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit.

Very interesting….GM seems to be getting it’s act together.

(Quote)
avatar Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 1:35 am

#74 LB

Right on !!

Get something like the Volt drive train in a car like the Orlando and make sure to talk to human resources- you will need some extra help building all of them.

If the car were to get +50 mpg (average) city and highway it would be a hit. Price it for the middle class – mid to high 20’s and GM has a huge success story! Start making money! Demand is growing and we know oil will eventually become more expensive!

(Quote)
Jeffhre Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 1:39 am

# 62 George

Give me your address and I will gladly complete your security audit to make certain your mattress is safer than my credit union…Um sorry, I mean your bank.

(Quote)
Lurtz Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 2:00 am

OMFGWTFBBQ!

The Beat, I mean Spark, is too small! I’m like, six feet tall, and I have to drop my kids off at daycare. I don’t want to look like the clown car at the circus when all three of us pile out of a minicompact!

Plus, my Mini Cooper would get jealous. Dropping the kidlets off is ITS job!

(Quote)
Lurtz Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 2:22 am

What? Where is everybody? As soon as I get home from work, all the threads have 70+ comments, and everyone’s gone asleep… SIGH

C’monpeopleit’sonly2AM!!!!

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tim-the-dreamer Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 4:50 am

statik & charlie h

Tell ya what fellas, since you HATE chrysler so much and are so unsupportive of their efforts to get e-revs into mainstream markets like gm and are willing to add more people to the overflowing unemployment lines; one of you can have my volt and I’ll go with the 200C. I’m sorry, but any vehicle that is capable of telling me when some dirt-bag is trying to steal it and provide video of the turkey so I can get the cops on them is more likely to get my business. Now if they teach it to talk and drive itself it’ll be bye-bye to accidents. No wonder they kept it under-wraps til now, I don’t remember the volt having wire-less conections and use one’s PDA as a remote for EVERYTHING; AWSOME! If they get the price within reach of the volt, they’ll torpedo the volt. Come on gm, you gotta step up. The asians have been eating your lunch(this coming from a half asian), and if chrysler can produce this puppy the under-dog’ll take over your slot. Check out the ENVI blog on chrysler’s site for the video details, oh baby.

(Quote)
Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 5:54 am

hi tim-the-dreamer #79,

“since you HATE chrysler so much and are so unsupportive of their efforts ”

_____________________________

Hate is a strong word. All of us are looking at the presented information and are seeking to figure out what is going on in the world of E-REV development. Right now we see GM and Chrysler digging into our pockets. And we see Congress dangling a fat TARP check to the “needy”. GM had a 2 year history of Volt development. We saw the initial concept. Then the production Volt at the cars shows. When TARP was added to the equation, Chrysler jumped in with an offering of THREE electric models.
I believe the percieved mistrust of Chrysler is a result of the timing of their EV offerings.

=D~

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:26 am

#67 canehdian Says: “The Orlando looks promising. but why must they have the stupid square backs. I realize there’s a third row that goes like right to the back, fine, but you could at least round it some more.”
————————————————————————————–
On the Volt, they found that sharper edges in the back made a huge difference in lowering the coefficient of drag. I believe the new Prius has sharper back edges as well.

(Quote)
tim-the-dreamer Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:28 am

Dave K @ 80

Agreed, what’s really aggrivating is that it took a series of events to make the auto industries cough up something that we really want rather than repeating what they did when the government ordered them to produce the earlier models like the EV-1. One reason there wasn’t a major demand then is that the commercials at the time put the focus on sporty trucks and gas guzzlers. Had they promoted the earlier hybrides we wouldn’t be worrying about foreign oil or high gas prices like we are now. It’s a shame how it worked out, but now irrigardless of their motives we need all of the big 3 to move in the right direction if we’re going to get our nation back on it’s feet and moving in the right direction. I hope President Obama(sounds good huh?) gives them and congress a swift kick and holds them accoutable; we definately don’t want a repeat of the wall street bailout mess. Beside, typing while one is wearing gloves at work in 21 degree weather with a sliced hand is not a fun way to stay awake! Thankfully my shift’s almost over. )

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Dave G Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:30 am

#62 George W. Bush Says: “The Tax and Spend Democrats are off to a great start. ”
————————————————————————————–
Better than the Don’t Tax and Spend More Republicans…

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Dave G Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 6:43 am

#50 Brewster Says: “Although I like the look, it doesn’t seem particularly aerodynamic.

I suspect that if it goes into production as an E-Rev, there will be enough changes to the design to put off many who get their heart set on that exact prototype.”
————————————————————————————–
Actually, I’m not thrilled with the way the Orlando looks on the outside. It’s the space on the inside that I love, especially in such a small car.

If they lowered the grille, slanted the windshield forward, and smoothed out the fender flares, I’d probably like it just as much or more, and I’m sure the aerodynamics would be better.

(Quote)
J Man Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 8:02 am

Lyle, Any idea where these will be built? I am guessing the Orlando will be in Mexico at the plant where the HHR is currently built.

(Quote)
Adrian Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 10:09 am

Finally, a family sized electric ‘van’. After driving around Chicago, I firmly believe the electric platform must have some acceleration in the ranges of 0-60 and 40-65. Benchmark the I4 2004 Vue and have more power than that and you are good to go.

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Johann Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 10:14 am

I would guess that it would be at least 2 years after the Volt before another PHEV from GM is released. The Volt is their first and they have to learn from their experiences to make their next one a bigger success.

When the Volt is finally for sale, and if they have something better like a PHEV Orlando coming in a few years, then I will lease a Volt to make trade in easier.

(Quote)
noel park Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 12:23 pm

#64 Dave K:

#66 koz:

#83 Dave G:

Thanks guys. You said it better than I ever could have.

#84 Dave G:

I agree.

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Reel$$ Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 5:02 pm

This may be the single most hideous auto design ever conceived. Unbelievably lame.

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N Riley Says:
January 21st, 2009 at 5:36 pm

I kinda like the name “Beat” better than “Spark”. Maybe GM has an electric version in mind. I sure hope so.

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NZDavid Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:23 am

28 nasaman

Well said, this is the car for me if voltec based.

(Quote)
stas peterson Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm

If you will settle for a Malibu type mild hybrid drivetrain instead, then go out and buy the “new” Honda Insight. They just upsized it from an “A” segment even tinier car. That is all it is, a mild hybrid in a tiny, cramped “B”‘ segment car.

BFD!

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Ford electric van by 2010 « bitguru blog Says:
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:15 am
Joe Bellisario Says:
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:34 pm

These two new vehicles are just what the doctor ordered. Congratulations!! GM can be a leader again. We need to help Americans understand just how important buying GM products will be to our countries economy.

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Chevy Spark and Orlando on Way to US, Will Orlando Get a Voltec … | KiddiCars.Com Says:
March 5th, 2009 at 3:19 am

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Chevy Spark and Orlando on Way to US, Will Orlando Get a Voltec Drivetrain?

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