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The 2009 Detroit Auto Show Should be Electrifying

January 6th, 2009 | Posted in: Competitors, E-Flex, E-REV, PHEV

The Chevy Volt has started a revolution. Not just for GM, but really for the entire automotive industry. Perhaps the credit might go to Tesla, but certainly the widespread Volt marketing message has convinced nearly all the automakers that electric cars are the way to go. Maybe our effort here had a little something to do with it to. Or maybe not.

Either way, bearing the fruits of this labor, this year’s North American International Auto Show in Detroit will run rampant with electric concept cars, and new news keeps coming out.

1. Mercedes Benz is expected to be revealing a pure electric and range-extended electric car called the BLueZero series, based on a SUV platform. Daimler has indicated that “small-scale production of Mercedes-Benz cars with battery-electric drive alone will then commence in 2010.”

2. BMW will be showing its two-seater pure electric MINI E, which will begin field trials this year. 500 cars will be leased to people in NY, NJ, and CA for 1-year. I’ll admit it, I put in my application.

3. Toyota will be revealing a newly designed short-distance, neighborhood pure electric car. No specs or image is available. As well the third generation Prius will be unveiled to the world. A company official advised me rumors that it is secretly planning a solar-powered car were untrue.

4. Dodge will apparently be showing a 4th EV prototype which will be a four seater different than the Dodge EV it had shown previously.

5. Ford will be discussing its plans to bring a pure EV to market in 2011, and a commercial BEV van in 2010. Spokesperson Alan Hall told me that although Ford has announced no lithium-ion PHEV plans yet “rest assured that we are pursuing them just as aggressively as anyone else.” There will be a “relevant” press conference at the event, and they will also be showing the new Fusion Hybrid.

6. Fisker will be unveiling the production version Karma E-REV, and unveiling a new Sunset model, which will likely be the word’s first convertible E-REV.

And of course GM. Well nothing official, but there are continued rumors about a surprise unveiling of a new E-Flex vehicle. GM will be introducing a newly designed 2010 Cadillac SRX. That car was actually shown previously as the Provoq concept, an E-Flex vehicle with a hydrogen fuel cell range extender.

It should be quite an experience. I am looking forward to being there at ground zero when the press days open on Sunday January 11th. Stay close to the site, and I’ll get the news as soon as it hits, with of course firsthand in-depth interviews and inside information whenever possible.

And despite the recent drop in auto sales, the economy, and gas prices, the momentum for electrification of the automobile remains strong.

Posted by: Lyle

128 Responses to “The 2009 Detroit Auto Show Should be Electrifying”

Spin Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:05 am

Will there be a Volt Nation in NY this year?

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BillR Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:07 am

Great job, Lyle. You’re doing quite a bit of research, and we appreciate that.

Have a great time in Detroit. We will be looking forward to your reports.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:10 am

From the article:
2. BMW will be showing its two-seater pure electric MINI E, which will begin field trials this year. 500 cars will be leased to people in NY, NJ, and CA for 1-year. I’ll admit it, I put in my application.

————-
Lyle, you could bet I would have put in my application also.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:15 am

From the article:
Toyota will be revealing a newly designed short-distance, neighborhood pure electric car.

———–
I am probably in the minority here, but I don’t see how an NEV could work for a lot of people. I think an ICE vehicle will also be necessary to own if someone owned an NEV. E-REV is the answer to both and it is just one car.

This has been my 2¢.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:19 am

From the article:
And despite the recent drop in auto sales, the economy, and gas prices, the momentum for electrification of the automobile remains strong.
—————
Funny you should mention this. Last night, I received a call from my Congressman’s office.

I stressed the need for a Manhattan project for battery technology.
I used all the reasons, terrorism, climate, massive fluctuations in the oil market, etc.
I also, of course, mentioned our beloved Volt. Hopefully some of what I said sunk in.
We also discussed the high cost of switching our houses to Solar, Geothermal, etc.

He is on the Energy committee. Because of this, he will be hearing a lot from me.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:24 am

Lyle, I know it is really early to discuss VoltNation in NY,
but like Spin #1, I am curious also.
By next month, I will have to plan some time off from work if I want to attend.

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charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:27 am

lyle writes, “Perhaps the credit might go to Tesla, but certainly the widespread Volt marketing message has convinced nearly all the automakers that electric cars are the way to go.”

Toyota has sold a million Priuses, plus more hybrids of various other types. There is a fairly long list of GM vehicles that haven’t sold in that quantity since the Prius was introduced. This is solidly a mainstream vehicle, due to Toyota’s efforts.

The best EV on the road, today, is STILL the Rav4-EV.

Somehow, I don’t think Toyota is real impressed with Volt marketing hype.

Or noise from a cheerleader web site.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:01 am

No Telsa at the show? Actually, I guess a lot of companies wont be there this year. Oh well, i’m looking forward to seeing the Volt in person.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:15 am

Nevermind, I found this posted on the web.

“This January, many new automakers will be displaying their vehicles for the first time at Cobo Hall. Those include Tesla, Revenge Designs, Bugatti, Lotus, Morgan and Brilliance Auto. BYD Auto, a Chinese automaker, will return again this year with a display on the main show floor.”

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BillR Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:15 am

#7 Charlie h says:

“Somehow, I don’t think Toyota is real impressed with Volt marketing hype.”

———————————————–

No, but they are certainly afraid of the technological lead that GM is taking with the Volt.

By the way, how were Prius sales last month?

==============================

“The best EV on the road, today, is STILL the Rav4-EV.”

Not sure where you got your unbiased opinion, but the one and only reason you can say this is because the EV1 is no longer on the road.

However, in 2 years time expect to see a better, more advanced version of the EV1, called the Chevy Volt.

======================================

“Or noise from a cheerleader web site.”

I could care less what Toymota thinks of this website. We are on the verge of “peak oil”, and granted, the Prius uses less gasoline, but it still needs it. The Volt will allow us to diversify our transportation energy supply, with no compromises like the RatV4-EV.

Go GM, Go Volt! Death to Trolls!

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:23 am

hi k-dawg #8,

“i’m looking forward to seeing the Volt in person.”
_______________________

When I first saw the production Volt up close last year in Santa Monica I instantly felt a pet attraction to it. I was concerned that the 18’s would look small on it. But they look just right. Let us know what you think.

BTW: Will the Volt require a smog certificate for registration?

=D~

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statik Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:25 am

#8 k-dawg

No Telsa at the show? Actually, I guess a lot of companies wont be there this year. Oh well, i’m looking forward to seeing the Volt in person.
——————————————

I think Tesla is there, but…

I myself have a lot of mixed feelings about the show with all the no-shows. Feels like we are going to end up with a sea of cars from the local Detroit dealerships and not much corporate ‘excitement,’ but we will see.

Fortunately, our interest is primarily EVs…so we will have some things to gaze at. Hopefully, we will get some specs/pricing from all the big players (who attend), it would be nice to fill in that data and just know exactly what we are looking at.

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RB Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:32 am

BMW will be showing its two-seater pure electric MINI E, which will begin field trials this year. 500 cars will be leased to people in NY, NJ, and CA for 1-year. I’ll admit it, I put in my application.
——————————————————————-

Great. We are looking forward to your report.

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Guy Incognito Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:36 am

If the Volt is due to be released in 2010, when does GM actually plan on advertising it?
I see all kinds of car ads on TV and in print media, but none of these ads are for the Volt.
I was always told that when you want to sell a product, advertise.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am

#14 Guy Incognito Says:
If the Volt is due to be released in 2010, when does GM actually plan on advertising it?
I see all kinds of car ads on TV and in print media, but none of these ads are for the Volt.
I was always told that when you want to sell a product, advertise.
——————–

I’ve seen the Volt in GM TV ads, but not mentioned by name (i think it was the concept, not the production design). I see your point though. I dont think GM will really start pushing ad’s until they have a functioning production vehicle with fulls specs and a price tag attached, but I’m not a marketing guy.

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Spin Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am

#14 Guy

They are running a Volt commercial on TV here in NY.

#15 k-dawg

It is the production version.

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statik Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:50 am

#14 Guy Incognito

If the Volt is due to be released in 2010, when does GM actually plan on advertising it?
I see all kinds of car ads on TV and in print media, but none of these ads are for the Volt.
I was always told that when you want to sell a product, advertise.
=========================
Well, we had a lot of greenwashing ads there for awhile…and I still see them sporadically (more often than not, it is the Volt tucked on the end of another GM ad now), but I don’t see the point in running specific Volt ads.

As for ’selling’ the product through advertising…GM likely won’t get 1 Volt to a ‘regular customer’ in 2010 (if any customers at all), and with full first year production at 10,000 units, just the pre-orders will take them well into 2012, so I don’t see the need for them to promote something with delivery over 3 years out…if anything it would just harm their image.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:01 am

Excellent write-up Lyle. You’ve covered all the vehicles that I’ve read about and more!

What is great in your list is that E-REV’s are well represented, and I believe those vehicles will be the first to push deep into the consumer market, making way for BEV’s and PFCV’s (plug-in fuel cell vehicles) to follow.

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:10 am

#7 Charlieh

“The best EV on the road, today, is STILL the Rav4-EV.”

Must be a real slow seller at the local Toy dealership if you can still get a RAV 4 EV..Toyota discontinued them in 2003

I think that the Tesla is better personally

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/rav4ev/

Right from the Toy site

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Shawn Marshall Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:24 am

Great summary Lyle.

Good luck with your application – GM will have to give you a Caddy to make you wait for your Volt(can’t have a Voltiac driving an electrifying Beamer).

It is impressive that so many car companies are getting into EV. This seems to be a critical mass gathering and not some greenwave daydream. It IS all about the batteries as Rashid noted. Hope that consortium you mentioned a few days ago gets some real traction.

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RB Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:41 am

Lyle, Statik, others ?

Looking forward to your reports from the Detroit show.

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charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:44 am

#10, BillR, said, “No, but they are certainly afraid of the technological lead that GM is taking with the Volt.”

Warn a guy, will ya? I laughed so hard, the coffee came back out my nose.

Until the Volt is on the road, GM has a technological lead in nothing. And, do try to remember, a Volt is a Prius with simpler software and some of the parts removed. Everything that’s going to go into a Volt… someday… is already in a Prius.

It’s also unlikely that Toyota is concerned about any ephemeral technological lead that leads to losses (as GM has announced, the Volt will lose money for years).

It’s amusing that people laud GM for being so “open” about the Volt process. Toyota openly pointed out that lithium-ion technology is uneconomic and that they’ll move on it when that changes.

Toyota will save money on product development because then can afford to field low-volume PHEVs, or even an RE-EV (via software or drivetrain modification) since they don’t have to engineer anything, just swap in a more powerful battery when it’s available at a cost they like or think the customer will stand and reprogram the computer (or remove parts from the drivetrain).

Prius sales, by the way, were down. So was everything else. If Toyota is having difficulty selling a highly fuel-efficient car at $22K, just how much fun is it going to be for GM to try and sell a highly fuel-efficient car for $40K?

The upcoming Prius will offer better performance, will be slightly larger, offer better fuel economy and it’s expected that Toyota will hold the line on cost (Toyota has announced component cost reductions but it will be difficult to hold the line on price with the yen where it is at 88 or so). It will have more general appeal and will be an alternative not just to other hybrids, but to any mid-size $20-24K vehicle, including the Malibu and such.

If anything is worrying Toyota, it’s probably the new Honda Insight.

#19, Mitch, Fewer Teslas than Rav4-EVs, so far. More happy customers, so far. How reliable are those Teslas? Do they seat 4? Carry a bit of cargo? Pull a trailer? And the fact is, the Rav4-EVs are STILL on the road. Come to think of it, they’re noticeably cheaper than the Tesla, too. So was the original purchase price.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:50 am

#10 BillR
Charlie h might have been a little snarky, but he made a good point. Toyota’s Prius has contributed to the electrification of the automobile. Let’s be fair, Toyota deserves some credit.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:54 am

Volt Nation should take place in California.

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N Riley Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:56 am

Lyle, I wish I could be there with you. You are our eyes and ears and we know you will give us the straight scoop as soon as possible. Get us some good pictures too.

Who else among us are intending to attend the show?

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Shawn Marshall Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:58 am

Somebody should think about Nanking.

GO Volt Go GM.

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N Riley Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:05 am

#4 Rashiid Amul

Well, I tend to disagree with you just a little. I think there is room for a NEV that is also capable of short distance commutes to and from work. Many of us do not have to get on super-highways to go to work and a NEV would do fine for driving around town. If the cost was kept low, I could see myself buying one for my wife to run around town with doing her shopping and such. She drives a Honda Odyssey now and she really does not need all that much room anymore. I could even use one to commute to work (20 miles round trip) through city streets. Most of my driving is between 25 and 40 miles per hour speed zones. I don’t even get on the inter-state going to work. I am not alone in this respect. A large number of workers are doing the same type of driving. We just need an electric that gets about 50 MPC to get us there and back with a little running around if necessary.

Edited: I think we need both. I want to be able to travel short distances as cheaply as possible but have the option to travel across country if needed. I agree the Volt would do both very well except where cost is concerned. I don’t want to spend $40,000 for a vehicle to commute to and from work with long distance travel just once or twice a year. Sure, I would buy the Volt, but I would also buy a cheap BEV (without a lot of bells and whistles) for around town driving. In the case of owning the BEV, I would keep an ICE vehicle until I could afford the Volt.

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Leo Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:06 am

All you toyota lovers move to japan. Thats all.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:12 am

Tesla Motors is supposed to make an appearance at this auto show this year. It may not be a newly announced EV, but it is a strong contender already available for purchase.

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:19 am

Charlie..

Even Toyota was dissapointed…

“Toyota believes that in order to have a positive environmental impact, a large number of consumers must embrace the technology. In order for this to happen, the vehicle must meet the lifestyle needs of, and be affordable to, the mass market. Although a significant marketing effort was undertaken for the RAV4-EV, we only sold about 300 vehicles a year.”

Here is Where the Volt addresses Toy’s concerns, it meets the lifestyle requirements of 80%, in addition they only sold 300 a year despite a”significant” marketing effort” the wait list here is at 46,000..that is what GM has brought to the table that the mighty Toy company could not

“In addition to overall customer acceptance, technical issues tied to electric vehicles remain a major hurdle. Industry practice regards batteries to be at the end of their useful life when capacity decreases to 80% of original capacity. A battery’s capacity is the amount of charge that it holds, and is commonly measured by the range of the vehicle. It is cost-prohibitive to replace an EV battery. The cost to replace the battery is more than the value of the vehicle.”

Again GM is dealing with the tech issues, hope you never replace the battery in your RAV..it’ll cost more thatn the car..here GM was smart crushing the EV-1 (sorry EV1 fans..I agree it should have never been stopped, but the legacy costs would be bad), because if they had sold the EV-1, customers would eventually need a battery,and it was cost prohibitive…

“How reliable are those Teslas? Do they seat 4? Carry a bit of cargo? Pull a trailer”

Ahh..now we have to insert criteria defining better..you made a statement and so did I. Now you have to define it to your criteria

So..as far as I know the Tesla has 0 recalls so its at least as reliable as the RAV, Its a sports car so it SHOULDN’T seat 4, nor should you use it to tow stuff.
Who has better 0-60 times, and at a green convention, the Tesla will draw more eco chicks thn that box…don’t know the AER, but the TESLA has an excellent range…

So by my criteria (price not a factor…) the Tesla wins

Lets face it..you made a totally broad statement, and now have to narrow the criteria to win…its a totally subjective thing..

and BTW..I can buy a brand new Tesla..you can’t buy a new EV Rav4 so availablity is another criter..hell that Makes the ZAP better..

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statik Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:28 am

#21 RB

Lyle, Statik, others ?
Looking forward to your reports from the Detroit show.
————-
#25 N Riley

Lyle, I wish I could be there with you. You are our eyes and ears and we know you will give us the straight scoop as soon as possible. Get us some good pictures too.

Who else among us are intending to attend the show?
==================

I’m going, but I’m not sure what date. I got press cred from a large paper here, and had booked to go on the first day…I’ve never been during the ‘media’ days, would like to get some ’swag,’ lol.

Naturally, nothing is easy (as in, I did not check with the better half first), and apparently we have a ‘delayed’ extended family Christmas get-together for sunday…sigh.

/hopefully I can widdle my way out

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:38 am

#22 charlie h says “And, do try to remember, a Volt is a Prius with simpler software and some of the parts removed. Everything that’s going to go into a Volt… someday… is already in a Prius.”

So you think “a Volt is a Prius with simpler software and some parts removed?” Ba ha ha ha ha ha! Not even close. A parallel hybrid (or as john1710a likes to say a split-power hybrid), even with a plug in, is not remotely close to a plug in serial hybrid. It’s the difference between a jet and a prop engine, or, in this case, an EV with a range extender versus an ICE with a electronic assist. They are simply not in the same class. A jet engine or a Volt may be simpler, but simpler is frequently better rather than worse.

To put this in perspective, in percentage terms, a Volt is to a Prius as a Prius is to a Hummer. Basically, as compared to a Volt, with a Prius you’re looking at four times the gas usage and five times the emissions. You really ought to read up some before showing up on a fan site!

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Jtron Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:51 am

I swear, I am sick and tired of every post turning into a Toyota vs GM war. Why can’t you people recognise that both GM and Toyota have contributed a great deal of time and money into new technology. Toyota made the hybrid car what it is today, and GM made the first usable ev, and are using what they learned to make an even better car, the volt. In fact, the more competition there is, the better off we as consumers will be.

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:52 am

#30 Mitch

The RAV-4 EV is an important vehicle if for no other reason than it ws the first indication that the concern about battery life was way overblown. As for Toyota’s statements that it couldn’t sell enough, that’s more or less a pile of hooey. Until the last year, RAV-4 EVs were only sold to companies with fleets, and then the companies were only allowed to buy one or two a year. During the last year regular folk could buy them but Toyota didn’t make a dent in the waiting list before discontinuing the program, which had more to do with changing regulations issued by the California Emissions Board than anything else.

The problem was not that Toyota couldn’t sell the vehicles in large numbers. They could probably have sold a quarter of a million without breaking much of a sweat. The real problem was that they were losing money on every vehicle, and further (wrongly) assumed they were going to lose even more when they had to incur major expenses for battery replacements. Since you don’t want volume when you’re losing money on each unit, they decided to kill the program. (This is BTW an issue GM faces with the Volt, but they have the advantage of the $7.5K tax credit).

There isn’t anything wrong with that. But to say that they discontinued the program because they couldn’t sell enough is disingenuous. Another way, one which is more accurate, would be to say that Toyota couldn’t sell the RAV-4 EV at a sufficient premium to make the program profitable for them.

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BillR Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:57 am

#28 Leo

I like that idea.

#23 Thom

Never said the Prius has made no contribution, however, it will be minor compared to the Volt.

#22 Charlie

I’m laughing at the coffee up your nose, because obviously your head is up your ***.

Volt is not a Prissy. The Volt is an electric vehicle with a range extender. Always electrically driven. The Prissy is a watered down version of the GM 2-mode, with no highway electrical assist.

You can love Toymota, brought to you by the folks who gave you Pearl Harbor, all you want. You can deny the obvious, which you seem to do. But the Volt is real, and it will have an EPA sticker rating in excess of 100 mpg! Even if GM were to go bankrupt (highly unlikely) and were liquidated, the Volt program would be purchased and continued.

You can spout off all you want. You’ve made your point, Toymota doesn’t think Li-Ion is ready. So it will take someone with balls and technological prowess to bring it to market, and that someone will have to be GM. (Toymota can copy it later).

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:59 am

#34 Don C

I did not make those statements..they are directly from Toyota’s website.. I posted the link earlier, but here it is again…

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/rav4ev/

Either you believe the corps statements or you do not..I tend to take them at face until proven otherwise. Hoioey or not..that is TOY’s OFFICIAL comment on the subject.

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GXT Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am

30. Mitch,

Search Youtube for Top Gear’s Tesla tests. They had one break on them while testing.

They were also very hard on it for the lack of range they experienced when they drove it.

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grant Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:13 am

It was said before that the Volt’s solar roof option would be displayed in January, I’ll be interested in seeing if that’s still on track, or if it’s been dropped.

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GXT Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:14 am

32. DonC,

Volt = Prius + Plug + Larger Electric Motor + Larger Battery -Gearing that allows the gas engine to turn the wheels.

They are different, but they aren’t so radically different as you suppose.

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GXT Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:19 am

I think the most exciting fuel-efficiency-related item at Detroit will be the production Insight.

Better than Prius city fuel economy, apparently sub $20,000 price tag, good looking interior and relatively good looking exterior. On sale in a couple of months.

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:20 am

#33 Jtron

“I swear, I am sick and tired of every post turning into a Toyota vs GM war. Why can’t you people recognise that both GM and Toyota have contributed a great deal of time and money into new technology. Toyota made the hybrid car what it is today, and GM made the first usable ev, and are using what they learned to make an even better car, the volt. In fact, the more competition there is, the better off we as consumers will be.”

I agree..its not about GM vs. Toy, I think they make a great product..

But I will defend GM when the trolls attack..(kinda like WOW)

its just I am not the least bit interested in ANYTHING they make…truly I find they have 0 appeal for me..(and before someone else chimes in about reliability ad hoc ad naseum.).I have had nbothing but GREAT experience with all my GM products, and have yet to have a reason to change…everyone more than 250,000 Km before selling…in truth 0 maintenance issues..I have never had a recall!! 30+ YEARS..

Hell as an example…my 96 Lumina APV passes all tests, runs like a top, original EVERYTHING exept fluids, suspension (once at 230,000), brakes and tires..Yes even the plugs, bulbs and exhaust are original. The plugs get pulled, checked, don’t even need cleaning. NOTHING EVER fails on this..takes 40 bucks to fill it, drive 700k on a tank, hauls 7 comfortably, and is nimble as hell…

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:23 am

#27 N Riley
It sounds like we have similar driving needs. I would love a NEV that doesn’t cost too much, can get up to about 50 mph, and provides modern comforts (like windows and doors).

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:25 am

#37 GXT

Top Gear also had the Tesla falling way short of the acceleration claims. However, Road and Track or Car and Driver, can remember which, had a very different experience.

Tesla did have major major problems with the transmission.

As for the differences between the technologies, they are profoundly different.

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Jtron Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:26 am

37

The BBC admitted that half of that review was completely fabricated. The Tesla was very reliable. The only glitch was a blown fuse, and took about 1 minute to repair.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/12/22/bbc_top_gear_tesla/

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:37 am

#36 Mitch

I understood that it was Toyota’s statement not yours. Not attacking you in any way. It’s just that this statement, much like GM’s with respect to the EV-1, is misleading. In both cases the issue was that they couldn’t make any money delivering EVs at a price which allowed them to make money.

That’s not a problem per se. It’s that looking at a lack of demand which was never there at the offering price just confuses the issues and suggests solutions that aren’t appropriate. If the issue is cost then incentives and gas prices are the right idea. If it’s lack of consumer interest then there aren’t really any good solutions.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:41 am

Must…not…feed…trolls

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Spin Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:50 am

#33 jtron

I agree with you completely. I think the folks involved in the GM vs. Toyota debate are losing sight of the big picture, which I believe is developing more efficient transportation for the masses. I welcome the efforts of GM, Honda, Toyota, BYD, Tesla or any of the others. GM was the technology leader in the 90’s but gave up the lead in lieu of shareholder dividends. Toyota took the lead and now GM is fighting to get it back. The competition will result in more and better products for us to choose from.

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noel park Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

4 Rashiid Amul:

Right. Doesn’t work for me.

My wife could actually probably work with a NEV, as her commute is something like 5 miles. But she is a poster girl for “range anxiety”, and won’t even consider it. Also, the NEVs we have seen so far scare her to death from a safety standpoint. I could talk her into a Volt, but that’s about as small as she is about to go. Real or imagined, these are the huge sales resistance issues. I actually might try it, but most of my commute is on freeways, so no go.

#46 ThombDbhomb:

Amen. Who needs it?

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Dave G Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:27 pm

#4 Rashiid Amul Says: “I am probably in the minority here, but I don’t see how an NEV could work for a lot of people. I think an ICE vehicle will also be necessary to own if someone owned an NEV. E-REV is the answer to both and it is just one car.”
————————————————————————————–
I totally agree.

In fact, I’ll go one further. While many others believe the EREV is just a way for us to eventually transition to pure battery electric vehicles, I think the combination of EREVs and bio-fuels will be the best solution for the future. There are many physical advantages with liquid fuels.

So I’m very glad the Volt will also run on E85. This is the perfect type of car for the future.

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

I swear, I am sick and tired of every post turning into a Toyota vs GM war.
____________________________

That’s proof about enthusiasts here not actually being serious about the objective. Mainstream production does not come from smugging the other players on the same team.

Volt is a SERIES hybrid. Prius is a FULL hybrid. Both have battery-packs and electric motors. Both use them for improving efficiency substantially over traditional vehicles. Both are grossly outnumbered by traditional vehicles.

At some point, the enthusiasts here will finally see that big picture and realize the need for transitioning away from engine-only designs in large volumes quickly is the true objective. Remember the bailout? So called “superior” technology doesn’t mean much unless there are millions of it on the road.

Wake up! Create that Tech-FAQ already. Stop fighting the vehicle helping change happen.

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noel park Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

#46 ThombDbhomb:

Sometimes it’s really hard though, LOL.

Must…not…feed…trolls

Maybe I should write it on the blackboard 500 times.

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Dave G Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:41 pm

#22 charlie h Says: “And, do try to remember, a Volt is a Prius with simpler software and some of the parts removed. Everything that’s going to go into a Volt… someday… is already in a Prius.”
————————————————————————————–
Give me a break!

Just one example, the Volt uses an induction electric motor. The Prius uses a permanent magnet motor. The induction motor is more powerful, more efficient, and has more complicated software.

There are numerous other examples. Get your facts straight.

Toyota is a great car company, but they appear to be lagging behind in EREV technology. Also, the Plug-in Prius with only 10 miles of range is pathetic. Not worth the trouble of plugging in.

The regular (non-plug in) Prius is great. Toyota leads the industry in hybrids. But for plug-ins, it seems they are behind.

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Anthony BC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

“The 2009 Detroit Auto Show Should be Electrifying” – the more choices the better!

GO ALL EVs – Benz, BMW, BYD, Dodge, GM, Honda, Tesla, Toyota!

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 12:49 pm

the Plug-in Prius with only 10 miles of range is pathetic
__________________________________

The “range” can be whatever the provider wants it to be.

The Hymotion upgrade now available is 25 miles.

Stop it with the greenwashing already. Capacity is flexible.

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Larry Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:03 pm

Its pretty inaccurate to say the Volt started a revolution. GM jumped on the bandwagon just like everyone else. There were many EVs before the Volt, including some companies actually making them now.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:17 pm

39 GXT Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:14 am
32. DonC,

Volt = Prius + Plug + Larger Electric Motor + Larger Battery -Gearing that allows the gas engine to turn the wheels.

They are different, but they aren’t so radically different as you suppose.
————————

I think they are more different than you propose. There’s a lot of new technology being developed by GM to make this car. Battery heating/cooling, passenger heating cooling, software algorithms for maximizing battery life & range, etc…

Yes, all cars are basically some seats mounted on some wheels, but its the technology that makes the wheels move that makes them different.

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pm

#55 Larry..

Quite correct..Buick made one in 1908…but while there was interest for many years..the VOLT really got people motivated..maybe not for EV because it is an EREV, but there was really a Surge in interest since it was introduced at the NAIAS.

GM-Volt.com is a grass roots movement, but for once the timing, economics, and information base (internet) have allowed the greatest interest in EV’s. No other electric I believe has generated as much interest..I guess you could say it wa Tesla as it sparked GM, but Gm is the one running and others are trying to catch up…

Everyone else poo pahed Volt, Li IOn is not viable, not worth it..now? Chrysler, BMW, Ford, Daimler, Toyota, Nissan Honda have either jumped in or restarted evaluating if not announcing they are now in…

I think in that respect, Gm started the revolution…

reduce, reuse….RE-VOLT!!

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statik Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:40 pm

#55 Larry said,

Its pretty inaccurate to say the Volt started a revolution. GM jumped on the bandwagon just like everyone else. There were many EVs before the Volt, including some companies actually making them now.
==========================

While it is true the Volt is not the first. It is the first from a major auto, and that is the significant part.

No one is worried, or takes notice about some rag-tag company squeezing some EVs out, but when one of the major auto players say they are going to back the tech and mass produce a EV, the rest must follow or risk being left behind…and thats a revolution.

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:48 pm

#58 Statik

“No one is worried, or takes notice about some rag-tag company squeezing some EVs out, but when one of the major auto players say they are going to back the tech and mass produce a EV, the rest must follow or risk being left behind…and thats a revolution.”

Wow..that was almost a rah rah sis boom bah for GM…LOL

See you’re not all negative and pessimism hehehe

Actually, by that sentence, eventhe Prius started no revolution..true that others probably wished they started on Hybrids sooner..but 10 year interval is NOT a revolution..(see my comments about the revolution)

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charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:55 pm

#36, Mitch,

That web page hasn’t changed since about 2004. I’m suuuure Toyota hasn’t done anything new since then. Oh, wait, they introduced a radically revised Prius, a Camry hybrid, a Highlander hybrid and two Lexus hybrids.

#35, BillR, “Toymota doesn’t think Li-Ion is ready. So it will take someone with balls and technological prowess to bring it to market, and that someone will have to be GM. (Toymota can copy it later).”

I’d agree that it takes balls for a company that’s relying on welfare to stay in business to plan to deliver products that lose money.

As for “Toymota” copying it… Toyota needs to copy nothing. Toyota led with the Prius, in capability and actual sales numbers. GM’s Volt won’t achieve the sales volume of the Camry hybrid for at least a year and a half after launch. And, when the dust settles after the Volt launch, it’s very likely that the Volt will find itself looking at other car companies’ tail lights receding into the distance. Especially Toyota’s. It’s two years to the Volt and counting. Nobody is standing still, politely waiting for GM to catch up.

—

This website was set up, what? 18 months ago or so? More? To celebrate the Volt? And in that time, GM has delivered exactly what? Press releases?

They’ve got some mules and, maybe, prototypes… Woohoo! Can you plunk down $40K for something and drive it away? How much oil have these mules and prototypes saved?

What else has GM done?

Well, GM has taken delivery of batteries and (I’m so excited I can hardly stand it) TESTED THEM. There’s a value-added task. You know, I’m just guessing here, but I would suppose that the battery manufacturers themselves would be testing the batteries. I mean, they’re developing chemistry for specific applications… don’t you think they’d be the least bit curious whether or not their batteries would work?

Has GM even announced a battery supplier?

What else has GM done? Well, they’ve lost umpteen billions of dollars.

While GM has been laboring to get this uneconomic Hail Mary play into semi-production, Toyota buids about a quarter-million Priuses, world-wide, per year and sells them. To hear Toyota tell it, they’re making money on them. Certainly, Toyota’s making money on something.

So, forgive me for laughing at their efforts, but if GM had put some of this development money into projects that would help them sell cars in this decade as opposed to (maybe) the next (as in, get the blasted Cruze here FAST, fix the fuel economy of the automatic Cobalt, add VCM to more engines), GM would be offering cars that cut our dependence on oil – probably by a lot more than a paltry 10K Volts are going to effect – and maybe even doing it in a way that would MAKE MONEY.

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stas peterson Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

If you are waiting with baited breath for a Toyota NEV, go buy a Chrysler GEM. They have produced going on 50,000 of them and have a an entire catalogue of versions to suit your needs, rather than just one model. They have been in production for a good portion of a decade, and apparently well accepted. They easily out number in sales all the BEVs from the publicity conscious, but non-production tiny companies.

The Toyota Prius was and is a pioneering vehicle. But its technology is getting VERY dated. Advanced versions of the same architecture appearing in the Ford Fusion are obtaining 24% better mileage in equivalent vehicles. The small dual mode version due in 2010-2011 from GM/Chrysler/BMW, will out perform the Ford Fusion version’s 41 City 36 Highway rating and Camry’s 33, 34 rating. A Malibu sized vehicle, equivalent in size and performance to the Camry/Fusion, with the small FWD dual mode, should register around 42-43 City and 45-46 highway as an HEV, and around 80 or 90 mpge as a PHEV.

It is time for Toyota to go back to the drawing board and to design and to build a more modern hybrid drivetrain. They probably are doing so. One speed planetary transmissions in the HSD drive do not meet all needs, and are not the epitome of engineering efficiency.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:57 pm

What is a revolution? The Prius is a successful evolutionary step from a major auto maker.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

#54 John1701a says,
The “range” can be whatever the provider wants it to be.

The Hymotion upgrade now available is 25 miles.

Stop it with the greenwashing already. Capacity is flexible.

================

John, as I type this I am asking myself why I bother to reply.
But here goes anyway.

No one is greenwashing. Capacity is not flexible for the average driver.
Capacity is defined by the provider, as you say.

A plug-in with a 10 mile range is pathetic. You like it? Great.
I think it is sad. Can someone get a Hymotion upgrade to 25 miles? Sure, but again, that 25 miles is going to cost more money and as far as I know, is not flexible to the average driver. Capacity is what the providers want to sell us. It is not flexible.

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Tagamet Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:01 pm

john1701a, I don’t consider you a troll (in the traditional sense). Probably more Obsessive Compulsive Disorder with “a cause”. But you’ve been harping on: …”Wake up! Create that Tech-FAQ already. Stop fighting the vehicle helping change happen.” for like, er, forever.

Suggestion: write a Tech-FAQ and post it’s site address here (I know you already have a shrine site, so just add the Volt FAQ). Then all of us can go read it and be educated. It’s a win-win: You get the Tech-FAQ and we get to stop hearing you witch about the need for one.
Just a thought.
Tag
PS The tuna guy is kinda fun to ignore.

LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

Suggestion: write a Tech-FAQ and post it’s site address here.
________________________________________

Of all the daily bloggers here, not a single one has stepped up to the plate in 2 years to summarize the info that’s been shared. Where’s the dedication?

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:09 pm

#62 stas peterson
With a top speed of 25 mph, the GEM doesn’t quite substitute for a regular sedan.

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:10 pm

It is time for Toyota to go back to the drawing board and to design and to build a more modern hybrid drivetrain.
__________________________________

The goal has been to deliver a high-volume (over a million per year) system at a price overall competitive with traditional offerings while providing a significant improvement to emissions and consumption.

It achieves that goal.

What would a complete redesign accomplish?

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:11 pm

#64 TAG

PS The tuna guy is kinda fun to ignore.

Even more fun to provoque to me..a Toy fish in the wrong pond..lol

I know we shouldn’t feed the trolls, but…sometimes..can’t ….resist…

I like Toys but not interested in one at all..I have no REASON to go there when GM’s have given me 30+ years of excellent reliability..but the Toy fanatics..sometimes its fun..
Be well..

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

#67 John

“… (over a million per year) …”

They are building over a MILLION PRIUSES a YEAR? where did you get that ? I though the total for the last 10 YEARS TOTALLED a million…

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:20 pm

#64 Tagamet

I don’t consider john1701a a troll either. He has a lot to offer wrt a hybrid car discussion. I hope sneetches with stars can talk to the other sneetches without hostility.

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DonnaS Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:26 pm

#10 BillR
Charlie h might have been a little snarky, but he made a good point. Toyota’s Prius has contributed to the electrification of the automobile. Let’s be fair, Toyota deserves some credit.
- – - – - – - – - – - – -
History folks…. electric vehicles STARTED at the turn of the 20th century by GM. Some of the SAME issues exist today that existed 100 years ago… learning ‘how’ to drive one for fuel efficiencies… so quiet it startled horses and now people… infrastructure was and is not in place to support electric vehicles… batteries were heavy and cumbersome then and now… Americans love to drive as long and as far as they want…

Let’s not throw the ‘home teams’ under a bus folks… domestic companies are indeed competitive. Great write-up and should be a good car show!

(Quote)
stas peterson Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:27 pm

I would like to engender a discussion here from thoughtful posters.

I have a pet engineering peeve with the Volt recharging layout. I think the charging connector should be on the other side of the vehicle. I can easily envision lots of combination parking meter/chargers being installed, located on streets and perhaps in front of, nose-in parking spots in parking facility/garages, as PHEVs/EREVs proliferate. We should anticipate that.

I think the charger connection should be on the sidewalk side of the street, for safety and ease, not across the car in the traffic. Alternatively, it should be in front or rear of the vehicle, maybe in the front to facilitate nose-in parking /charging too. From a forgetfulness standpoint it easier to remember to disconnect when its adjacent the drivers door, but I still think it should be located opposite the driver side or elsewhere, for safety/convenience reasons. A front connector would be easier to disconnect on forgetfulness, as it would just be “pulling the plug” as you moved the Volt.

Perhaps a connection where it is obvious and visible to the forgetful driver once he is behind the wheel, by being located on the hood or projecting above the hood, directly in view, would remind the driver. While it would still be safer than on the in-traffic side of the car.

Since GM is planning or both LHD and RHD versions of the Volt, perhaps the location of the charger port should vary with the steering wheel, always being located nearest the street parking /charging side.

What do y’all think?

Its a simple change I know, but much easier to accomplish now rather than later. Do you think it is worth mentioning the results of this hoped-for discussion in your meetings with Volt engineers, Lyle?

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noel park Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:35 pm

I hate to give charlie h too much encouragement, but his last paragraph at #60 makes a lot of sense. But of course it would, as I have been saying pretty much the same things here for over a year, ahem, ahem. GM needs find a way to do all of those things, PLUS LJGTVWOTR.

But come on charlie, Lexus hybrids?? Makes about as much sense as Cadillac EREVs. Oops, sorry, LOL.

Highlander hybrid? Makes about as much sense as a Tahoe hybrid.

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ccombs Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:36 pm

Seriously, let’s put a stop to the stupid Toyota/GM flame wars. Both companies have made contributions to EV technology, and both companies have at times been resistant/complacent in the face of the other company’s advances. GM played catch-up with parallel hybrids after initial scoffing at the tech, and now Toyota will have to play some serious catch-up with EREV technology now that it is foolishly resistant to Li-Ion and EREV.

Let’s be reasonable- their products are almost even in reliability and many other metrics, and both companies also share many of the same shortcomings.

How ’bout we let them compete and let car buyers decide? Arguing just gets annoying.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

#71 DonnaS

You quoted me, then said, “Let’s not throw the ‘home teams’ under a bus folks.” I don’t think I threw GM under a bus. I support GM’s Volt effort. All I said was, “Let’s be fair, Toyota deserves some credit [for contributing to the electrification of the autromobile].”

Let’s be fair.

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BillR Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

#60 Charlie

Let’s see, who makes the Tundra? Wasn’t that factory idled for 3 months? Is the new Prissy factory in Mississippi running yet?

Let’s settle this now. GM first introduced the Volt at the 2007 Detroit Auto show as a concept. It received such an overwhelming response, GM decided it should go into production. So, with a production date of November 2010, this car will go from concept to production in less than 4 years. This is extremely fast-paced for auto development, especially for something as new and unique as the Volt.

Only someone without experience or knowledge of automobile design and assembly could dispute this (GM provides tours of the Corvette Assembly Plant in Kentucky, a tour I have taken several times. After seeing the size, complexity, and infrastructure needed to manufacture automobiles, you too should be amazed at this 4 year cycle).

Things we know to date:

1) After many hours in the wind tunnel, GM has completed the exterior design
2) GM has been testing multiple battery packs 24/7 for over 1 year now (batteries are the key component in an E-REV). Test results exceed expectations.
3) The Fuel Cell Equinox, currently with 100 models out in customer hands, has accumulated over 500,000 miles. The FC Equinox is electrically driven, and the Volt’s drivetrain will be similar
4) Some components have been sourced, such as lightweight forged aluminum wheels to Alcoa. We expect other announcements in the future.
5) Although no formal announcement has been made, we suspect that internally, GM has selected a battery supplier.

Now comes my suggestion. If 2 years from now:

a) GM is not producing the Volt or on the verge of producing the Volt
b) It cannot achieve 40 miles AER in an EPA driving cycle or have an EPA sticker in excess of 100 mpg
or
c) GM cannot sell these vehicles,

Then I will admit that GM has let us down, and that they have not met the commitments that they have made to us.

If, on the other hand, the Volt is in production, meets the above criteria, and has no sales issues, then you have to admit that the Volt is superior to the Prissy, and that GM actually has trumped Toymota in both technology and environmental stewardship.

I’m willing to good on record agreeing to the above. Are you?

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Unni Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:59 pm

Why you guys think GM and Toyota are pulling each others leg. Its not true, They have some agreement for transfer of technology and joint advanced vehicle development.

Look at Pontiac vibe and Toyota matrix – both are same

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Matrix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Vibe

Look at Subaru, previously Gm was holding 20% share , they handed it over to Toyota ( now they hold 16% or so ). Even suzuki : GM was holding major share. GM was an investment company than an automobile company.

We may see similar thing in case of volt also. The idea is to get us buy a car and get our money out of our pocket to their pocket and we drive their car.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:28 pm

#72 stas peterson
—
i always thought the best place was on the driver side based on making it more noticeable/convenient to the driver, but I see what you are saying. If in the future there are a bunch of pay-meter style plug-in options, then it would be nice to have the plug on the curb side. I think though, that day is a long ways off, and GM can add another plug to the right side before it becomes an issue.

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

#77
Unni you’re talking about Nummi
(sorry just wanted to type that)
What is your first language.. just curious.

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Bryce Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:33 pm

GM started the revolution? Right, GM made an electric car in 1908, then killed it. Then in the 90s they made another EV, and in their infinite business wisdom took them all back and crushed them (even as people were clamoring to pay for them). What makes anyone think the Volt will be any different the 3rd time around?

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

#76 Stas

Honestly..Why not have 2 or 3 or even 4 ports: Driver / Passenger / Front and rear…

Put a connection that if t is plugged in, it dissables operation and puts up a warning saying..”Vehicle still connected to charging source…please disconnect before operation”

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Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

#80 bryce
“What makes anyone think the Volt will be any different the 3rd time around?”

You forgot about the one in the 60’s and another in the 80’s I believe.

The volt is the 6th, and this time, there is a big difference…more hype, information and interest…

I mean..do you remember ANY of the others other than the EV1?

and on this site alone, there are 46,000+ on a waiting list…

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k-dawg Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:54 pm

I think (hope) the difference is the larger public interest. The cost of gas got enough people’s attention, not to mention the war in Iraq, global warming, etc… Whatever your motivation, more people are interested in driving electric cars than they have been before. The next crux is to get the cost of the technology down to where its accessable to everyone. Right now the more electric you go the more you pay.. hopefully this will reverse.

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:01 pm

They are building over a MILLION PRIUSES a YEAR? where did you get that ? I though the total for the last 10 YEARS TOTALLED a million…
__________________________

Not paying attention to the competition is another problem…

The quantity part of the goal is to reach the million/year level by about 2012 or so. This year, cost of the system comes down further and production capacity increases. In 2 years, production capacity was scheduled (before the economic crash) to increase again.

Having a mature design is part of the formula… hence “going back to the drawing board” suggestion not serving the intended goal.

(Quote)
Mitch Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:20 pm

#84 John

I am not debating going ot the drawing board..I am just clarifying.

You stated they are building a million a year…are they?

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Shawn Marshall Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

I’m betting Toyodor will have a 20 mile plug-in hybrid ready for sale for $10k less than a Volt whenever GM is ready and maybe not before?? They might be sandbagging and GM might be sandbagging. If I had their jobs, I sure as hell would be doing my best to mislead the competition.

It ain’t about who did what and when; it’s all about who can “get thar fustest with the mostest.”(for Civil War fans)

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 5:04 pm

You stated they are building a million a year…are they?
______________________________________

I stated the goal, which was a design that could deliver million/year. 2008 output was somewhere in the 400’s. This year bumps it up again.

It’s the same thing I want for Volt… something configured in a way that high-volume can be produced & sold.

(Quote)
Ed M Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 5:22 pm

Shawn #86

For sure no car maker wants to be left out of the EV equation, and especially not Toyoto. All their negativism about EVs was likely a cover for: they got caught napping. They needed to develop an EV and ditch the Prius but they didn’t. GMs got the lead and it will be a while before the other car makers catch up. Like computer innovation, IBM and Wang were two big computer companies 20 years ago and where are they now ?
Startup Tesla seems to have a good start but I think that company can’t afford the R&D to stay with GM and who knows what or whether we’ll see anything from EEStor.
If EEStor can do what it says it can, GM should be breaking down their door. Who knows maybe they already are or at least LG Chem or A123 might be.
All in all it will be a very interesting year for making cars.

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 5:55 pm

#72 stas peterson says “I have a pet engineering peeve with the Volt recharging layout. I think the charging connector should be on the other side of the vehicle.”

A few months back a GM engineer asked Lyle to post a survey about where and how many connectors there should be, which he did. Though I originally thought one in the front, nasaman made a thoroughly persuasive case for having two, one on each side of the vehicle to address the different situations you would find yourself in. Couldn’t change my vote at that point but he definitely changed my mind.

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Unni Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 5:56 pm

Long back when i was in India, I used wonder seeing a little electric car called REVA on roads of Bangalore and i was never interested to buy one.

http://www.revaindia.com/

Now when i go though Volt and the Global warming ( yep more snow and col is also part of global warming ) i am getting more oriented towards buying a VOLT or an electric car like volt ( human usable – not futuristic one ) which suites my daily needs.

One more Q on volt : I understand that the volt generator is 53 KW and electric motor is 120 KW. Why its 53 and 120 , is there any relation between this numbers ? and why not its 30 and 120 or 75 and 120 or even 120 and 120 ? .

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Bryce Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 5:59 pm

#82 I think you hit the nail on the head, the difference is hype.

And the 46,000 aren’t on an actual waiting list. Just a list on a blog. That has nothing to do with GM.

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DonC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 6:13 pm

Forget the Volt. Go for the Jolt! Fox News has a short story about how coffee could be used for transport fuel.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=11418023&ch=4226713&src=news

Kinda fun idea. Not sure about the viability. Coffee is apparently 15% oil by weight but some plants which are more or less weeds, like jatropha, are more like 30%. Plus if all those beans go to Starbucks how much will the cop of joe cost?

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charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

#76, BillR,

Addressing your various points in order:

Toyota makes the Tundra. Did you really want to play, “Who has the most idled factories?” That’s not a game GM is going to win. Toyota has suspended plans for a US Prius plant, true enough. So? They’re still going to be able to deliver some 300K Priuses to the US market in 2009. They are more or less doubling capacity in Japan to close to 1/2 million per year. GM? GM can make, it is said, 2K two-mode transmissions per month. That’s it. Divide that among their “more hybrid models…” and see if you get meaningful quantities of anything.

If the Volt makes it to production in the announced 4-ish years, I’m supposed to be impressed? Did you know the Prius was 2.5 years from project go-ahead to first sale?

I’m glad to hear GM finished wind tunnel testing. Why didn’t they do that BEFORE they showed the concept? It’s a sad commentary on the state of GM’s business practices that the lessons learned from the Precept (cx .16 or thearabouts) and EV-1 (cx .19 or thearabouts; larger lesson of EV-1: range and drag are related) didn’t get consulted BEFORE the concept was paraded around and used in a few million dollar’s worth of TV ads.

I refuse to be impressed by the idea that GM is testing a battery pack. The manufacturer is already doing it. The manufacturer has more at stake than GM does, in fact, as the Volt will not be the the only application for their cells. Testing the battery pack is a PR stunt, “Look! We’re doing something!”

The Fuel Cell Equinox… would starve to death around here, as there’s no H2 supply. As misguided as the Volt business plan may be, I must admit that I DO have an electrical outlet in my garage.

GM picked a wheel supplier. This is what counts for progress on the Volt project? Next you’ll be telling me that they picked out the wood grain trim.

You can suspect battery suppliers all you like but they haven’t announced anything. This IS a key – and UNIQUE – component unlike, for example, wheels and wood grain trim. It could be that all is well in Li-Ion-land but to announce that there would be an announcement and then not announce the announcement – just makes GM look like they don’t know what they’re doing or that there’s a major problem and the schedule is likely to take a hit.

“Now comes my suggestion…”

That’s not an interesting bargain. I don’t measure the success of the Volt the way you do. There are three measures for an advanced tech automobile from GM (or any other manufacturer) that are significant and the Volt is lacking on all counts:

1. Impact on oil imports. I am not an absolutist on this. I’m not opposed to bringing in oil from other countries, in fact I prefer importing it it to drilling here and using ours up first. I only want to see imports managed so as to keep the world price low and the dictators starving and the impact on our balance of trade minimized. There is a time value to this, reducing demand TODAY counts more than reducing demand two years from now. The 1 million 46mpg Priuses on the road today replace 1 million conventiona mid-size cars getting 26mpg or so. That’s a major, immediate reduction in demand.

Oh, even if you’re an absolutist, 10K Volts that never use gasoline still doesn’t ding OPEC the way hundreds of thousands of highly fuel-efficient cars do. It just makes those few Volt drivers feel better.

2. Impact on greenhouse gas abatement. Almost the same logic as above. A million low-emitting Priuses on the road today have a significant immediate impact.

You’ll notice that, if we ignore existing vehicles already on the road and already contributing to those two goals and consider only vehicles produced going forward, we can go out to 2011 when the first 10K Volts are on the road and the numbers still absolutely favor of the Prius. 300K low-emitting vehicles per year trump 10K electric vehicles. GM says 200K Volts by 2015… The Prius still wins out at least that far (even if we assume no further increase in Prius production). The Volt starts to look good on the oil consumption comparison when we reach 150K Volts/year or so but as long as most electricity is derived from coal, it doesn’t look so hot in GHG abatement until the numbers produced each year are almost even between the two vehicles.

3. GM makes enough money on the Volt to pay back the federal loan they just got, stay in business and export vehicles so as to strengthen our economy. Since GM has announced this thing loses money, there’s really no point pursuing this, is there?

I’m willing to declare the Volt a success when it’s a success by two of those three criteria; it beats the Prius in oil consumption abatement, GHG abatement or makes money for GM.

Would you like to work a deal based on those criteria?

#73, Noel Park,

I don’t know why the Lexus hybrids exist. I guess they figure they can market a few to the well-heeled and make a little extra money on the program. But that’s not Toyota’s major effort; it’s a side show.

I also don’t understand why Toyota didn’t build the Highlander hybrid around the 2.5L Atkinson-cycle engine used in the Camry and build in a bigger electric drivetrain. Or use a VCM/Atkinson 6-cylinder. But it’s also a sideshow.

To some extent, spreading the tech around simply improves the economies of scale and it does achieve one marketing objective, which would simply be to make HSD rather ubiquitous or more normal, so that it gets wide market acceptance.

#84, John1701a,

Toyota seems unlikely to reach 1M/year in 2012 since they’ve delayed the Mississippi facility. Still, they’re way ahead of GM.

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charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

#90, Unni,

120KW is full power, which you won’t be using all the time. Average demand is going to be much, much less, so 53KW should be plenty.

Someone built a range-extender engine for the Rav4-EV. That generator produces something like 20 to 25KW and it easily keeps the Rav4-EV going indefinitely.

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Dave G Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 6:53 pm

We need an electric vehicle that most people want to buy. I don’t really care who makes it. Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford, Nissan, etc., I have no brand loyalties.

My concerns are:

1) A range extender is critical. The more pure EVs car companies make, the more most people will be reinforced in their feelings that plug-in cars don’t make sense. So I believe pure EVs will actually hurt the goal of more cars driving on electricity.

2) Plug-in hybrids with a very low range will also damage the reputation of plug-ins. If it doesn’t have enough electric range to replace most trips to the gas station, most people will just consider the plug a hassle. So I believe plug-in hybrids with a very low range will also hurt the goal of more cars driving on electricity.

3) Most car buyers want to buy their car from a single company. Buying your car from one company and then having another company make significant modifications to the propulsion system will create many warranty finger-pointing scenarios. I’m sure most people won’t go for that.

4) Most people want to by a car from a major manufacturer that’s been around for a while. Fisker, Aptera, Tesla, etc., – most people won’t feel comfortable buying a car from one of these. BYD is essentially in the same category, since it has no dealerships in the U.S. and no reliability track record.

How many cars satisfy all 4 issues above and have announced a production date?

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:08 pm

I’d buy a new RAV4-EV now if one were available. I would also buy an EV-1 if one were available. So neither one wins.
I couldn’t afford a Tesla (until whitestar) so it looses too. Yes I would rather have the BEV Volt but not to be made right away. That makes the oil companies the winners. Thats why Chevron Texaco bought out the only battery technology mature enough to power EV’s. LJGTVWOTR…. Take Care,
TED

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:35 pm

@Unni 90

53KW/120KW?

As I really understand it is, the DC motor at 120KW will be used because it is overrated for long term use. If it were 53KW/53KW you’re using it at max all the time as opposed to only half its max therefore longer life.

Now, the 53KW from the generator is questionable. Personally I don’t believe it is 53KW and that value is the electrical power converted from the HP possible from the ICE. I think in actuality the generator can only produce 35KW simply because the physics involved to generate 53KW from a PMG (Permamnent Magnet Generator) would be wayy friggin huge to fit under the hood of the Volt as well as with the ICE.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:39 pm

Some news on the plugin Prius Mods…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/06/consumer-reports-tests-plug-in-prius-conversion-finds-it-lackin/

Not the great 100MPG as some boast.
I think they had my lead foot wife drive it.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pm

#98 CaptJackSparrow

That lead foot must hurt when she applies it to your arse, matey.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:52 pm

@ThombDbhomb 99

Stop teasing me, you’re such a tease……..thtopit.

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RB Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:06 pm

#65 john 1702a carps “Of all the daily bloggers here, not a single one has stepped up to the plate in 2 years to summarize the info that’s been shared. Where’s the dedication?”

=========================================

All of us daily bloggers, superior creatures that we be, have total recall of all past posts, including specific quotation and citation from memory including word count and paragraph number. However, so as to appear modest, we intersperse our comments with minor errors for friendship sake.

So we look forward to your new Tech-FAQ as a site where we can point newcomers. We might peek at it ourselves, just to confirm what we already know.

==>
Joking aside, I think you should do it.

(Quote)
Rashiid Amul Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:08 pm

#97 CaptJackSparrow Says:

I think in actuality the generator can only produce 35KW simply because the physics involved to generate 53KW from a PMG (Permamnent Magnet Generator) would be wayy friggin huge to fit under the hood of the Volt as well as with the ICE.

————-
My friend, I not 100% sure, but I don’t think the Volt is using a Permanent Magnet Generator. I do wish John1701a would hurry up with that Tech-FAQ.

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:23 pm

I also don’t understand why Toyota didn’t build the Highlander hybrid around the 2.5L Atkinson-cycle engine used in the Camry and build in a bigger electric drivetrain.
___________________________________

Actually, they did.

Again, not being aware of the competition…

Do a search for “Estima”. You’re in for a surprise. Of course, in that market the 4WD hybrid is disguised as a minivan.

(Quote)
Spin Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Did John agree to post a Tech-FAQ? Thanks John, we really need that!!

(Quote)
john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:30 pm

Joking aside, I think you should do it.
________________________________

Why? The Prius community did it as a whole.

The resource was quite well refined 2 years into the online activity too. What does Volt have to show for after its 2 years?

I’m happy to point out the history that made Prius a success. But if enthusiast enthusiam isn’t enough to do more than just blog…

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

#101 RB

#65 john 1702a carps “Of all the daily bloggers here, not a single one has stepped up to the plate in 2 years to summarize the info that’s been shared. Where’s the dedication?”
=========================================
All of us daily bloggers, superior creatures that we be, have total recall of all past posts, including specific quotation and citation from memory. However, so as to appear modest, we intersperse our comments with minor errors for friendship sake.
So we look forward to your new Tech-FAQ as a site where we can point newcomers. We might peek at it ourselves, just to confirm what we already know.
==>
Joking aside, I think you should do it.
______________________________________________________

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt for a comprehensive Volt treatment.

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

It’s great to see so many companies piling on. It means consumer demand is there. But it makes me wonder though. If so many companies are jumping in due to consumer demand…..why do we need to subsidize them.

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john1701a Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevy_Volt for a comprehensive Volt treatment.

If that’s all you want, so be it.

Helping fellow hybrids won’t last much longer anyway.

Next week, they’ll be a ton of 2010 Prius info to be focusing on instead.

(Quote)
Randy C. Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 8:59 pm

This is great news. Finally these car makers are getting it through their thick antiquated heads that having your entire product line dependent on a single type of fuel is a really bad thing. Not only that, but having the majority of the fuel under the control of unstable zealots is not good for anybody. Remember it was just a short 6 months after the highest fuel prices ever that the world economy began a collapse, how far remains to be seen. The oil junkie must have an alternative and unfortunately the old cronies in power would rather continue the old profit course instead of finding a good course.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:04 pm

#93 Charlie,

Obviously, you decline my challenge in Post #76, therefore I can only assume that you now admit the Volt is real, and will be superior to the Prissy. Thank you.

Regarding your return challenge, I assert that the Volt will beat the Prissy in oil consumption abatement, and also in GHG abatement. Within 2 or 3 years, it will make money for GM. So yes, I accept your challenge that the Volt will have better efficiency and lower emissions than the Prissy.

If you are talking about all Prissy’s on the road in 2011 versus 10k Volts, it will not happen in the first year. This should be intuitively obvious. No one is denying that Toymota has the early lead. However, as the Volt (and other E-REV GM vehicles) are deployed, the Prissy will become less marketable, and sales will drop (sort of like the Mazda Miata story). With time, GM’s fleet will do more to reduce oil consumption and GHG than the Prissy could dream of.

So, we will let time be the judge.

(Quote)
JEC Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 9:41 pm

#108 john1701a

“Helping fellow hybrids won’t last much longer anyway.”
——————————————————————–

Huh? Not sure what your aiming at with this statement.

I am still a little confused by your tone on GM and EREV. The EREV technology is different and in many aspects betters then the parallel hybrid model.

If your truly concerned with the US kicking the oil habit and the environmental impacts, then the EREV can only help your cause. Short term the impact will be negligible, but if the EREV can become viable, it has the potential to speed up the reduction of oil use.

I like the Prius, but do not own one. I like the Volt, but know I will not buy one at the +$30k price tag. I also think I like the 2009 Insight, but not until I get a peak at those specs. My hope is that the technology improves and prices come down on both, then I can drop the cash for the car I want.

(Quote)
GXT Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:24 pm

43. DonC,

You have stated that the Volt is so radically different and that Toyota is many years behind GM (did you say 2015 in a previous post?).

What part of this:
Volt = Prius + Plug + Larger Electric Motor + Larger Battery -
Gearing that allows the gas engine to turn the wheels.

Would stump Toyota for 6 years?
Prius? Done.
Plug? Hymotion has done it + No brainer.
Larger Electric Motor? No brainer.
Larger Battery? Apparently a no brainer (GM looked only at two suppliers, they both exceeded expectations (apparently) and neither has been signed). Hymotion has also done it.
Remove the gearing? Well that makes the car worse, but if that’s what it takes to be the all-mighty Volt, so be it. No brainer.

The big problem as I see it? Willingness to make a vehicle that makes no sense for the majority of the people and then sell it at a loss. But I guess that is a “no brainer” in a way too.

(Quote)
Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:34 pm

Venezuela shuts cheap oil pipeline for 200,000 US homes
Tue Jan 6, 7:11 pm ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) – Some 200,000 US households will no longer get cheap heating oil from Venezuela after the state-owned CITGO subsidiary announced it was dropping the program due to falling oil prices, the organization in charge of distributing the oil said Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090107/ts_alt_afp/usvenezuelaoil_newsmlmmd

=D~

(Quote)
Mark Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 10:49 pm

I must confess some cynicism about the Volt program. In light of GM’s bailout by the Bush administration, I suspect that the whole Volt program was more about preparing a case for bailout than a sincere attempt at creating a radical new product line.

For all of Toyota’s flaws, they make good quality cars (e.g. corolla) and have, relative to other major autos, tangible results w.rt. alternative drivetrains including the Rav4 EV which is still in use today, and the Toyota Prius which has reached 1 million sales worldwide since it’s introduction and is real and a platform for plugin hybrids as demonstrated by calcars.

Meanwhile the other auto companies seem to have (mild) hybrids only in the larger car/SUV class, and the Volt has a release date in what seems like the distant future. For all intents and purposes it is still a concept.

Tesla is to be commended for achieving what it has thus far – but it is limited in how far it can expand – reality is that it will take one of the big autos with their established production lines and know how in order to get the EV to mainstream. There is also a question mark whether alternative vehicle companies such as Think and Tesla will survive the worldwide economic downturn given the trouble the majors are in.

Assuming good faith in GM, I wonder why they didn’t opt to have current models have the option of a plug-in battery that would allow different chemistries (lead acid, NiMH or Li-ion) for a small range e.g. 10 -20 miles. This would at least get the ball rolling and acquaint customers with the technology. There is the ultra-battery (CSRIO invention from Australia) that provides NiMH capacity in a lead acide battery at a third of the cost. This would be more effective in GHG abatement than waiting a couple years for the Volt.

Also, I wonder if once the Volt is established (assuming it comes to production), whether GM would consider a 2 seater corvette like the EV1 – I quite like the EV1 design and would be very happy with a 150 -200 mile range of a BEV. Even if it came in a E-REV format, it would be a shame to see such a nice looking car design not utilised for a future model.

(Quote)
Jim Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:02 pm

Check out this link. Kawasaki is building large format NIMH batteries and may make a version available for Cars. Does this mean they a different enough to not be covered by the Texico/Chevron patent?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/01/kawasaki-to-pro.html

(Quote)
2007 Chicago Auto Show Toyota Highlander Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
charlie h Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:21 pm

#110, BillR, “Obviously, you decline my challenge in Post #76, therefore I can only assume that you now admit the Volt is real, and will be superior to the Prissy. Thank you.”

Oh, I think it’s a real project, all right. It’s the culmination of years of bad decisions at GM.

Superior? No. As of today, it is a project and not a saleable car. Almost two years left to go, too.

“I assert that the Volt will beat the Prissy in oil consumption abatement, and also in GHG abatement. Within 2 or 3 years, it will make money for GM. So yes, I accept your challenge that the Volt will have better efficiency and lower emissions than the Prissy.”

Within “2 or 3″ years of what? Today? The Volt’s 2010 introduction? Do you read what gets posted here by people that love the Volt? In a showroom by the end of 2010 (I wouldn’t buy that one, if I were you), 10K in the first full year of production (that takes us to the end of 2011), 200K by the end of 2015 (that’s 50K/year).

Compared to a conventional midsize car (although it only seats 4), the Volt avoids (if we use the perfect Volt driving cycle of 40 miles per day, 365/year) 584 gallons of gas. Compared to a conventional midsize car, the Prius avoids 266 gallons of gas. A Volt has the impact of 2.2 Prii but even by 2015, Prii will be produced and sold at a rate of at least 8 times the Volt.; that’s at least 3.5 times the impact of the Volt.

I’ve seen well-to-wheels estimates of electric vs gas cars… Electricity is highly dependent on coal… almost pure C. Plenty of GHGs going up the stack. On a per-mile basis, the Volt will almost rival the Prius for GHG emissions. If we allow for an increased green electric presence… well, I’ll allow the Volt’s responsible for 50% of the GHGs of a Prius. GM would have to be building 200K Volts/year by 2015 to match the GHG abatement of the Prius. Ain’t gonna happen.

“However, as the Volt (and other E-REV GM vehicles) are deployed, the Prissy will become less marketable, and sales will drop (sort of like the Mazda Miata story). With time, GM’s fleet will do more to reduce oil consumption and GHG than the Prissy could dream of.”

Right. A $40K car is going to affect the sales of a $22K car.

“With time…” anything is possible. But the time to affect oil dictatorships is now. The time to affect GHGs is now. The Volt does not contribute today. It won’t exceed the Prius’ contribution until after 2015, at the very earliest and, even then, only if Toyota stands still.

Detroit kept betting that Toyota (and Honda and Kia… the list is long) would stand still. They never did. Who’s on the ropes? Who went to Congress (in a private jet) to beg for money?

A welfare case is going to revolutionize the industry? Sure.

#112, GXT,

Exactly.

(Quote)
Jeffhre Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 11:55 pm

Why does anyone respond to these pointless rants. Clearly the Prius has made an incrementally larger impact over time on oil use.It should continue to do so. Hopefully the Volt will do the same and see it’s potential fulfillled to make or inspire more progress on that front. Why get into a pssing match with a Toyota fan boy when he too wants to see an impact on oil burning.

(Quote)
Dave G Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 12:08 am

#97 CaptJackSparrow Says: “53KW/120KW?

As I really understand it is, the DC motor at 120KW will be used because it is overrated for long term use. If it were 53KW/53KW you’re using it at max all the time as opposed to only half its max therefore longer life.”
————————————————————————————–
It doesn’t sound like you’re not getting it.

The battery supplies up to 120kw to drive the electric motor for PEAK power. This is around 150 horsepower.

The 53kw ICE/generator only supplies AVERAGE power. This is around 75 horsepower. When the ICE comes on, there’s still a 30% charge left on the battery, so the battery and ICE/generator work together to supply 120kw to the motor.

Here’s some pictures that show better how it works:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg

(Quote)
Tagamet Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 12:27 am

Statik@58
Was that the positive post you’d promised? I think that if I had to ask, it might have fallen a bit shy of the mark. I’ve had a few bumps in the road, so I may have missed an earlier submission, and if so, I honestly apologize (and be seriously depressed that I missed it). Sometimes I have to just scan down the posts until I see a really long post with a line across it (dividing your input from the quote of an earlier post), or a post that has a lot of words with “n’t” endings (can’t, won’t, didn’t, etc), and more often than not, has a link included. Then I scroll back to see if it’s a post from you, so that I can soak up all that heady information/opinion. Seriously, there is a core group of posters that I’d hate to miss and you’re either at the top, or darn close to it.
Be well,
Tag

“LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS OCVD” (Obsessive Compulsive Volt Disorder

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 2:12 am

@Dave G 118

Thanks for that link. I’m a little clearer now. From what I gather on the charge depletion mode then charge sustaining mode, assuming I am driving through I-5 up the Grapevine to Disneyland, I may use the FULL 150HP which means there is a possibility that long uphill climbs may deplete the battery past 30% because there is no way the ICE/generator can solely supply the full power to get the DC motors to it’s 150HP.
One has to wonder now what happens in this scenario? You’re going up hill and you have already depleted the battery to 30% and you have 65mins left in the drive.

@Rashiid Amul 102

If the volt is not using a PMG then what is it using? Electrical excitation is way too inefficient to self generate electricity. PMG’s/PMA’s seem to be the most (to my limited knowledge) efficient way using NdFeB. Any ideas on what is being used? Inquiring minds want to know.

(Quote)
Mitch Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 8:40 am

#94 Charlie H

(I waited ll night for some one else to reply to this..but no one has..)

“Someone built a range-extender engine for the Rav4-EV. That generator produces something like 20 to 25KW and it easily keeps the Rav4-EV going indefinitely”

OH!! Someone had range anxiety..and decided that making like a VOLT was a GREAT IDEA…

Whoda thunk it…(and it wasn’t Toyota BTW)

Lets see if I understand..Toy made the best EV..but hmmm..I may need to go farther…since Toy does not offer an EREV..I’ll Make MY OWN!!

By the way from a manufacturing and insurance standpoint..you have essentially built your own car, and nullified ANY coverage and warranty…Unless the mod is sanctioned by the factory..this of course does not apply to lights, spoilers, etc..but any drive / safety compomises do affect it..if you doubt, look at it like this..EREV RAV4EV has accident..fuel tank leaks..causes fire..injures / kills someone. Owner / family sues Toyota..Toyota can easily show they built the car WITHOUT a fuel tank..no liability..no coverage either as the mod was not sanctioned, and the insurance was for an ELECTRIC car..

Owner / family has to pay for ALL..

Which is why a MANUFACTURED EREV is better…like the the volt…

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 11:59 am

#121, Mitchell,

Most Rav4-EVs are not so equipped (in fact, this one may be unique); most owners do not have that sort of range anxiety. Most people who do have that sort of range anxiety have (drumroll…) a second car. In this particular case, the owners decided they were willing to do what was necessary to get by with just one electric car.

In fact, dealing with range anxiety by building an overly complicated RE-EV is just another sign of GM’s marketing incompetence.

Of course, here’s the real genius of the Rav4-EV-RE effort; the range extender is mounted on a trailer.

Tootling around town? Leave the trailer at home, keep your range and performance maximized. Going out of town? Hook up and take off, you can refuel the trailer as needed along the way and it keeps your BEV running nicely. The Rav4-EV, by the way, has the aerodynamics of a brick and the Rav4-EV-RE get fuel economy somewhat better than a regular Rav4 after the initial battery charge is used up. The secret to the improvement is the very small range-extender engine. It’s a 500cc. GM’s 1.4L engine is overkill and is going to hold down ultimate fuel economy.

Moreover, we reconsider the business model altogether… why buy an engine you’ll use just a few times per year to recharge your 60+ mile BEV? Rent it just for the times you need it. In fact, if you get stuck with a “flat can” as the Silent Service used to say, AAA could bring out a trailer for you.

Certain manufacturers (probably motorcycle engine manufacturers) would specialize in them. You could get them in different sizes and with and without certain amounts of cargo room.

GM could mount their antiquated pushrod V8s on trailers and get a little revenue by selling RE-trailers for all the BEVs other manufacturers will provide. Well, maybe not, weight is really important in this market. I guess it’s more likely GM will just fade away.

(Quote)
Mike D Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 3:40 pm

Reasons why this year’s auto show will be very significant: (You will be able to see, if not sit inside, most of these vehicles)

1. Chevrolet Volt
2. 2010 Camaro
3. 2010 Fusion Hybrid
4. 2009 Honda Insight
5. 2010 Prius
6. PRODUCTION Fisker Karma
7. Pontiac G8 GXP
8. Corvette (used 05 C6’s are down around 28k)
9. New Mazda 6
10. New Mazda 3
11. BMW 135i (hopefully there will be one sitting around)
12. – 25. Lots of electric concepts with 2 years-till-production plans

Should be good! Despite all the negative media of automakers pulling out.

(Quote)
BillR Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pm

Charlie,

“GM’s 1.4L engine is overkill and is going to hold down ultimate fuel economy.”

Where have you been? The 1.4L is more fuel efficient as a low speed generator drive than the original 1.0 engine. You obviously don’t understand the Volt or ICE’s.

How does it feel to be technically incompetent? Fortunately for you, there is no law in this country against ignorance.

But I’m sure you will keep submitting your brainless posts.

(Quote)
Mitch Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 4:51 pm

Charlie..

“Of course, here’s the real genius of the Rav4-EV-RE effort; the range extender is mounted on a trailer”

It is SHEER GENIUS!!

In fact..THAT IS WHAT GM did with the EV1!! Imagine…

(Quote)
charlie h Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 6:49 pm

#125, BillR, “Where have you been? The 1.4L is more fuel efficient as a low speed generator drive than the original 1.0 engine.”

That’s the original 1.0 TURBOCHARGED engine. My experience with turbos is that they hurt fuel economy. It also might be the case that frequent start/stops erode turbo life (this was, for sure, the early experience with some turbo engines – getting the thing properly lubed at startup was a problem).

In any event, the Rav4-EV did just fine with a 500cc engine. It was probably lighter than the forever-forthcoming Volt but it also had much poorer aerodynamics.

#126, Mitch,

And then they abandoned the idea. Pity. I wonder who they stole it from? Those coal-and-wood-fired steam car conversions of wartime?

Whatever… the fact remains that GM’s chasing “range anxiety” when smart marketing should realize that a BEV is as good as an RE-EV for anyone with access to a second car for long-range trips. GM’s spinning a lot of gears, burning a lot of cash and taking a lot of time building an overpriced, overly heavy, overly complicated failure when they could get a much simpler vehicle on the road with much less effort.

But these are the decisions when some blowhard – I mean, “visionary” – at the top can make major product decisions in a vacuum.

I’m surprised the Volt isn’t being offered with a pickup body and hideaway hardtop and marketed as a dragster/roadster/coupe/pickup and called the SSR-EV.

(Quote)
Detroit online pharmacy Says:
January 13th, 2009 at 9:05 pm

http://DetroitOnlinePharmacy.Com

(Quote)

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Florida giving $5000 rebate to convert Prius to plug-in November 20, 2009
- Probably Hymotion - $10,400 standard price - $5000 state rebate - $1000 additional federal incentives - $4,400 final cost. Hurry because their... […]
Texas
New York Times CSM story November 20, 2009
Link to the New York Times story of November 19, 2009 about a test ride of the Volt in charge sustaining... […]
srschrier
New video: Volt drive in Detroit November 19, 2009
November 19, 2009 Detroit Free Press story with video featuring a Volt drive with Andrew Farah in... […]
srschrier
New Video: Volt Corrosion Testing November 18, 2009
From GM VoltAge, the Volt's corrosion... […]
srschrier

The 2009 Detroit Auto Show Should be Electrifying

128 Responses to “The 2009 Detroit Auto Show Should be Electrifying”

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