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Poll: Which 2010 Hybrid Would You Buy?

January 2nd, 2009 | Posted in: Competitors, Hybrid

This new year will be bringing with it three new hybrid sedan choices for American consumers. Obviously most of us here are waiting for the Chevy Volt but since that wont arrive until late 2010 maybe one of these will have to do for now.

1. Ford Fusion Hybrid

This is a brand new strong parallel hybrid that has received an official EPA rating of 41 city/36 highway mpg, which makes it the highest mileage mid-sized sedan, beating the Camry hybrid by 8 mpg in city driving. It has a 90 kw electric motor, and 1.4 kWh NiMh battery and is capable of driving electric only up to 47 mph. It also has a 155 hp 2.5L gas engine. There is robust regenerative braking said to capture 94% of kinetic energy, and aggressive fuel shutoff on deceleration. The MSRP is $27,270.

2. Honda Insight

This is a low-priced mild hybrid. It uses what Honda calls Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) that basically delivers electric motor assist on acceleration and at some cruise speeds, and otherwise uses engine cutoff at stops and regenerative braking. There are no official EPA numbers yet but a low 40 mpg range is expected. The original tiny 2 seat Insight got 48 city/58 highway mpg and per Honda the new Insight “won’t be able to duplicate the original Insight’s numbers because of its size.” The car has Prius-esque aerodynamic styling and is expected to be priced less than $19,000.

3. Third Generation Toyota Prius

The latest iteration of the Prius is larger and wider, with a more powerful gas engine up to 1.8 L from the current 1.4 L. It uses the strong parallel Toyota Synergy Drive Hybrid System that has electric only low speed driving capability. Current generation Prius EPA estimates are 48 mpg city/45 mpg highway, and it is possible the new version will top or sustain those. Pricing is also unconfirmed but will likely be in the low to mid-20s. Information is still somewhat lacking as the car’s global unveiling wont be until next week in Detroit.

Of course none of these have a plug, but if you had to pick one, which one would you and why?

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Posted by: Lyle

176 Responses to “Poll: Which 2010 Hybrid Would You Buy?”

Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:27 am

None. i want the Volt.

I don’t really see the point of not having a plug. Gas is still needed to charge the battery in all three cases above.

The Volt is the car that is doing it right, IMO.

No plug, no sale.

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Bearclaw Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:33 am

None. I would buy a used 1st generation Insight before those three and only if I can’t get a loan for a Volt.

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GSP Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:38 am

The FFH (Ford Fusion Hybrid) is AWESOME.

No data on the next gen Prius, but the styling doesn’t look as good as the current Prius.

The new Insight is just an 4-cyl econobox with a mechanical CVT, and a small motor/generator so that they can put a “hybrid” badge on it without being sued for false advertising. (like all Honda “hybrids”)

The FFH would be the ideal second car to go with your Volt. Less expensive, and more passenger/cargo room when you need it. True, it doesn’t have a plug, but it’s very stingy with gas and likely will have a better payback than plug-in vehicles with their much more expensive batteries.

GSP

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Richard Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:42 am

I want The Volt .

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BillR Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:47 am

Here in New England, it sure is nice to have 4WD. Got about 8″ of snow Dec. 31st, but we were able to go out early that evening with the wife’s Envoy.

Besides the Volt, we would be interested in something like a 2-mode Buick Enclave.

Although it is good to see more hybrid options, I voted no to all of the above.

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TED in Fort Myers Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:57 am

#2 Bearclaw
I’ve got the first generation Insight and have averaged 60.8 MPG for 45,000 miles. The Gen 1 Insight would be a great purchase if you can find one for sale.
My next car will have a plug or I will drive my Insight until the wheels fall off. I like the hybrids for those buyers who have been driving gas hogs. I would only be satisfied with greater than 60 MPG. TED

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Mitch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:01 am

NPNS, but I voted Ford

The other 2 a re CLONES (even in storm trooper white too…)

the only real diff was the front snout..and UGLY!

GMVOLT
(GetMyVoltOnLineToday)

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Joe Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am

I want the Volt but know it won’t happen for the majority of us. The Volt will flop if it’s priced above 30 grand. Even with a supposed plug-in government rebate it’s still floating around the mid 30’s mark, last I heard. I feel any car priced in that range is targeting the wrong kind of market, the BMW, Mercedez, Lexus market.

Do you really think these people are going to pop for a mid size, non luxurious plug-in sedan?

I’d say in this poll that the honda hybrid will make it big, the pricing is right for the middle class american family such as myself. Once my current honda finally breaks, which it hasn’t once in the past 7 years, I’m definitely getting a Honda Hybrid. What are your guys thoughts on the Volt pricing and if it’ll make it?

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TUT Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am

I want the FFH it has more miles in all electric mode than the volt. 40 vs FFH 47 also it would be all to easy to add a transformer and out let to convert to plug-in

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Bradyb Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am

It’s great to see Ford beating out Toyota and Honda with a great midsize Hybrid. Good thing gas is $1.40 now.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:12 am

$1.29 at Sam’s Roanoke VA

No Honda & No Toyota

Had an 87 Ford Aerostar and swore I’d never buy another Ford, not because the car was so bad, which it was, but because of the way the Ford dealer treated a dissatisfied customer. His only solution was to sell me another Ford product to replace the lemon I’d already purchased. Guess he thought I wanted to open a lemonade stand.
The real reason nobody will buy American cars is not the reputation for inferior quality, it’s the hosing you will get at a dealership. Does anybody under 40 buy American cars?
LJGTVWONR

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merve Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:21 am

#11 Shawn Marshall

I’m 25 and have only owned GM products.

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xed Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:25 am

None, but here is why. I currently own an ‘08 3dr 5speed Toyota Yaris and I get 40mpg and retail on the car was just $12,000. I’m pretty sure the price-to-efficiency ratio of this car can’t be beat by anything that is currently available.

If I had to go out and buy a car in 2009 then I would buy another Toyota Yaris. I get 40mpg, a low price and Toyota build quality. Just because a car is a “hybrid” doesn’t necessarily make it a better choice that a normal ICE.

However, nothing can beat driving on 100% pure electric power and I plan to replace my wife’s car with a Volt as soon as that becomes a possibility.

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Nelson Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:42 am

None!

NPNS!

If all were lithium ion plug-in, I’d buy the Ford.

NPNS!

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Tony Gray Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:46 am

The Fusion did quite well in the test in the current issue of Car and Driver. It beat out the Malibu mild Hybrid handily, and won out over the Nissan and Toyota mid size cars as well.

The Blue Oval gang learned something from Toyota with their Escape Hybrid and I think they will do well with this car.

I still want my Volt, of course, but with a mid size Ford pulling down decent EPA city ratings (the city/highway ratings in the article above are reversed), the cost/benefit ratio just has to come into play.

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Murray Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:47 am

None of these cars are enough to get me out of my ‘01 3-series…

The Volt still has me thinking about my first GM purchase ever… it was and is the only thing that I can fathom that would have the ability to pull me away from the ulitmate driving machines that BMW provides…even though I’m not as excited about the ‘production-styling’ vs the concept, I still want those AERs !!
I will of course need to test drive the Volt too…as much as I love the idea of electrification…I am still going to need a car that feels good and responds adequately to the pressing of the “go” pedal (no longer the “gas” pedal)

And if I must apologize to all the patriots that say you must buy US in order to help our economy, I apologize…but at least I’m not buying Toyotas!

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TUT Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:50 am

actually statistically speaking Ford has a better track record for reliability than all the others. also they had won the award from JD powers for best quality and alos the Ford Fusion and Focus were voted best class. So as you can see it isn’t the quality that caused the stigma of unreliability. The true cause is the constant changing of vehicle design causing to think there was something wrong with the prior models. while companies like Honda and Toyota maintained their lineup while only making minor changes.

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mmcc Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am

I’ve been looking at the Insight and plan on taking a test drive when they come out in April but I was underwhelmed when they unveiled the production model. I liked the concept much better. We have never owned a Honda and recently drove a Civic Hybrid, nice little car, but… we don’t really need a car right now so I don’t know. If gas was still $4/gl I would definitely be looking at a hybrid. I do hope that Obama puts in a substantial gas tax to get this country moving away from imported oil. Right now we have a 93 Mopar and 04 Ford, both paid for and drive about 3 miles to work. So we will probably wait and see… but hey!… I did get a new electrical service and 240v outlets installed in the garage last year! All I need now is something to plug in.

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maharguitar Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:54 am

I’ve owned two Fords and two Hondas for the last 15 years. Both had similar reliability and the service costs were about the same. In Southern New Hampshire, the big Ford dealer and the Big Honda dealer are the same company and the service experience is pretty much the same. The only major repairs that needed to be done on either cars what that the Ford Explorer and the Honda Accord both needed new transmissions. At about the same mileage too.

As for which hybrid, I’d go with the Ford. I like the looks of the car better than the others and I suspect that it is also roomier.

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Joe Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:08 am

Joe Says:@8
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am

I want the Volt but know it won’t happen for the majority of us. The Volt will flop if it’s priced above 30 grand. Even with a supposed plug-in government rebate it’s still floating around the mid 30’s mark, last I heard. I feel any car priced in that range is targeting the wrong kind of market, the BMW, Mercedez, Lexus market.

Do you really think these people are going to pop for a mid size, non luxurious plug-in sedan?

I’d say in this poll that the honda hybrid will make it big, the pricing is right for the middle class american family such as myself. Once my current honda finally breaks, which it hasn’t once in the past 7 years, I’m definitely getting a Honda Hybrid. What are your guys thoughts on the Volt pricing and if it’ll make it?

*********************************************************************************

Hey Joe from line #8, how did we end up using the same name? I’ve asked Lyle a while back to fix this problem, but it did not get fixed. Please let me know what you think about this problem.

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ROBERT M. SPERRY Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 am

If I had to take one of the three, I would take the Ford. According to the information given, it will go up to 47 MPH on electricity only. That’s enough for most city driving. However, IT AIN’T NO VOLT! I WANT MY VOLT!

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KUD Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:14 am

I voted for the Ford, because it will be available in a few month. However, if my cars survive till the Volt is available to me, I figure that will be 2012/13, then the VOLT of course.

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texas Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 am

I would buy a used Prius and put in a Hymotion system before I put down on a brand new hybrid.

I would also like to see all models out on the road and wait to hear how they do compared to each other. The new Ford looks good. However, so does the new Prius and Honda. I just hope the price of gas goes back up to keep these programs moving forward.

The worse thing would be a bad economy and low gas prices. Here we go again. Who killed the electric car? The same thing that killed it before – cheap oil.

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CDAVIS Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:15 am

______________________________________________________
NPNS!

Electric Cars + Nuclear Power = American Energy Independence!
______________________________________________________

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:16 am

The question and possible answers don’t make sense. The question is:
“…if you had to pick one, which one would you and why?”
Meaning that you have no car and have to buy one now when no plug-ins are available. But one of the possible answers is:
“None, No Plug No Sale No Way”
Meaning that you have to buy a car now, but you won’t, so that means… what?

I guess it’s more of an emotional thing, but if you look at it logically, the “None, No Plug No Sale No Way” answer doesn’t match the question.

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statik Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:25 am

Ironically, I voted the Prius, even though I have a Insight on order, lol. Is that breaking the rules?

I assumed the poll was meant to be, if you could have your choice of the three (as in, if they were all available). I decided to pick up the Insight (in the real world) because it is something very few of these cars are…real. Who knows when you (as a customer) would ‘actually’ get the new Prius or Fusion, we have some estimated release dates…but can you really get them then? I don’t know.

When it comes to the cars themselves, I think the raw numbers of the Prius dwarfs the other two…and having Toyota on record saying the MSRP of the next gen will be lower than the current gen, has to forsehadow them continuing to be king of ‘hybrid mountain’

Moreso to the hard numbers themselves, I look at all three of these cars as a bridge to the ‘plug-ins’ of 2011. Meaning that for a lot of us here at GM-VOLT who choose to buy one of these, it will be the car we drive until we get a plug-in. Once we get the plug-in, many of us will trade-in or dispose of this car, which brings up a very important factor: RE-SALE VALUE.

We can be sure that the Prius will hold value extremely well because we have historical numbers to lean on. In the Honda’s case, it has a incredibly low MSRP/value ratio, which will make it a resale winner. It is a little more cloudy for the Fusion, you have two things working against it, a starting MSRP north of $27K and, well…it is a Ford (domestics are not known for their strong resale value).

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charlie h Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:26 am

A million 50mpg vehicles on the road today have far more impact on oil imports and greenhouse gasses than ten thousand 40-mile AER EREVs arriving in 2011 – or later.

I’d take the Prius and put the $15K I’ll save over a Volt into solar panels, home insulation, high efficiency windows or a new furnace.

However, I will also look at the Insight II. I may just go with the one that gets the best highway fuel economy.

By the by… the posting mentions the current Prius fuel economy; Toyota has stated that the new 2010 Prius WILL do better. It will also go 62mph on electricity alone. Even after the HyMotion improvement, the current Prius reverts to gas at much lower speeds and accelerations; which holds back the fuel economy imrpovement. The 2010 Prius has more powerful electric motors; so it can do all-electric travel under more conditions.

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ziv Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 am

I would like the FFH if the Volt is delayed, and that is a real possibility. The 2008 Fusion was a nice mid-size car, good handling, good acceleration. I took it over the Cooke City pass in MT and it was a joy to drive, I had BMW’s pulling to the side at the wide outs to let me by.

One point, I believe the Fusion got 41 City, 36 Hwy, not the reverse.

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 am

If I had to pick one it would be: Toyota Prius

This is great car with a proven reliability track record and a low price. We need more cars like this.

When I think of “quality”, my first concern is reliability. If you look the track record of various brands over the last 10 years:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/tt.jpg
the reliability record is pretty easy to see. Toyota is the best with Honda not far behind. Volkswagen is the worst, with GM, Chrysler, and Hyundai not far behind. Ford and Nissan are around the middle of the pack, but Nissan has done very poorly over the last 3 years.

So if it weren’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t even be looking at GM.

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Lars Hastrup Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 am

Volt thanks

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Mitch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 am

#9 TUT

“I want the FFH it has more miles in all electric mode than the volt. 40 vs FFH 47 also it would be all to easy to add a transformer and out let to convert to plug-in”

Umm..just to clarify, the 47 miles is not range, (the articles says “…up to 47 mph…” (MPH is the critical part here) it is top speed before the ICE kicks in.

The Volt does NOT have that limitation,and has a greater all electric range as well/ Think the FFH wasa 1.4 Kw battery, the Volt is 16 (about 11 TIMES bigger) and you think the FFH has more range…I think you mis interpreted the article. the range is likely6-10 miles (they will use 100-0% as battery life span is not as critical.)

Just to clarify, because if Ford can get 47, from 1/10 the battery then GM should get the tech, and the Volt would go over 400 MILES on a single charge…

Mitch

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Spin Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:38 am

Prius, because of my personal experience with Toyota. All of the Toyota vehicles I have purchased since 1980 have been reliable, economical, and comfortable. They have also been worth almost twice as much as a similar American vehicle at trade-in time.

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Daveo Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:38 am

Fusion: highest EPA and looks like a normal car. I want a vehicle that conveys the message “See, it’s just like any other car, but gets good gas mileage”.

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RB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:40 am

I voted for the FFH because I drove a Ford Fusion for the week just passed as a rental car (present model of course, not the hybrid model promised). The FFH was comfortable and a good size — large enough that 4 grown people were not especially crowded, with adequate luggage space. It was not on the whole as refined as a Toyota Camry hybrid, with some engine noise on acceleration, but still it was a nice car. Because the non-hybrid exists now, I am optimistic that the hybrid version will come into reality on time, especially as it is now EPA rated.

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:43 am

#27 charlie h Says: “I’d take the Prius and put the $15K I’ll save over a Volt into solar panels, home insulation, high efficiency windows or a new furnace.”
————————————————————————————–
The Prius still uses oil as it sole fuel source. Much of our oil is imported from countries that hate us. Solar panels, home insulation, high efficiency windows or a new furnace don’t reduce oil consumption.

For example, Iran is building nukes. Their parliament is chanting “Death to America”.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/31/iran.nuclear/index.html
It’s money from oil that is allowing Iran the power to do this.

We need to find an alternative to using oil, quickly…

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KUD Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 am

#35 Dave G

We need to find an alternative to using oil, quickly…

___________________________________________________

We should have found an alternative to using oil YESTERDAY!

GO VOLT GO

=D~~

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Dr.Science #11 on the list Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:53 am

We own an ‘08 Camry hybrid and have driven it 15K miles, it is nearly flawless (paint chips easily). The Fusion hybrid’s numbers look good, but we are not buying anything but a VOLT as our next car. I have not spoken with a Chevrolet dealer about accepting orders and deposits yet, or if we would have to buy it out of state as we are in Nevada.

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Redeye Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:02 am

IF I had to buy one of these three it would be the Fusion. Much nicer looking. And an American brand in name at least.

Never say never, but I don’t think I’d ever buy Honda or Toyota.

I think I’ll wait a bit and get the Volt. My current vehicles are new or like new and are good for 4-5 years yet if need be.

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Mark Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:16 am

I wouldn’t buy ANY of them, since NONE are Plug-ins.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 am

59,827 miles with my Classic Prius, lifetime average of 45.4 MPG.

110,267 miles with my Iconic Prius, lifetime average of 47.9 MPG.

Will be placing my order for a 2010 as soon as the official process begins.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:23 am

I see that the Fusion is capable of driving electric only up to 47 mph.

But how far is the all electric range. Speed will make a difference, but I can’t seem to find the range anywhere.

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GXT Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:23 am

17. Tut,

The problem is that Ford (and others with average or subpar RELIABILITY) are advertising QUALITY and implying RELIABILITY. QUALITY is not RELIABILITY.

Take note next time that GM/Ford are always pushing the JD Powers INITIAL QUALITY (IQS) and Ford is pushing their own short term QUALITY study (i.e. they paid for it). Also take note that they don’t push any long term RELIABILITY studies, let alone any short term ones.

Under JD Powers IQS, the head gasket blowing within a couple weeks of onership is equivalent in quality to believing the seats are a little hard.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:30 am

I voted twice — first NPNS, then for Fusion.

As they say in Chicago “Vote early, vote often”.

More seriously, since the Fusion will be capable of 47 mph in electric only, then I would buy it under the following conditions….

1) An after market plug-in option becomes available (e.g. by CalCars or Hymotion). A plug-in option may also be able to increase the highway speed a little, either by controller hacks on CAN bus or by purchasing the car with smallest wheel options and fitting larger wheels. Then speed may be limited due to battery stress more than motor capacity. Since I live in NY, speed limit is (by law but not practice) only 55 mph anyway.

2) If the Volt looks like it won’t be available to me until 2012.

3) Ford is made in USA (I presume)

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noel park Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:33 am

No Plu, No Sale, No Way!

Next case.

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GXT Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am

26. Statik, 33. Daveo, and Lyle,

I don’t know what the 3rd gen prius offers for fuel economy, but it looks like the new Insight will actually get better city fuel economy than the current gen prius.

These are US MPG numbers from the EU test (source http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=806231):

Insight/Prius II/Civic Hybrid:
City: 51/47/45
Highway: 56/56/55
Combined: 53.5/54.7/51

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Anthony BC Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:40 am

Would buy Insight for $20K, then flip it in three years once the VOLT is available in ALL regions.

GO EV, GO VOLT!

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Joy Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:43 am

Only the Volt for me. In the meantime, I’ll drive and buy GM products to contribute to the survival of the company developing the Volt. (also, the good experience we’ve had with the GM in recent years is a factor)

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Mitch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:44 am

Another reason I voted for the FoMoCo car is that it is a MID sized car, not the econo box 4seater..

3 kids + 2 parents = Mid size minimum…

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Unni Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:54 am

After reading http://www.ev1.org , i started loosing confidence in GM and getting more respect to toyota. They gave away all RAVA4 EVs ( redesigned for better different times and even sold at end) . Same refinement is happening with Prius also.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Engine_of_the_Year says GM or ford has long way to go ( never proved that they are good except exploiting American spirit). Even i see subaru won twice after GM handover of the shares to toyota.

I will wait for reviews before i jump even for volt ( insight seems to be easy purchase and prius is proved in field for years ).Ford i prefer more SUVs/Trucks ( i love F150 or explorer/expedition ).

Today i understand Volt has cooling for batteries and they don’t expect that that cooling to affect range. They will come with a 2 mode solution ( one for temp below some degree and cooling above some degree ) and I will loose money if they dont think those before.

So Volt only after reviews.

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Samual Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:56 am

Probably the prius. I would never buy a ford.

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GLV Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:04 pm

I voted to wait…(NPNS). I’m a GM guy and none of the above choices offers me the ability to drive completely gas-free like the Volt does. I appreciate all the options that are quickly becomming available, and how that will help America ween itself off the foriegn oil teet, but unless something comes along that completely blows the Volt’s performance out of the water, I’m happy to wait a little longer.

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Koz Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:06 pm

How can we choose withouth actual specs? This poll will make a lot more sense once the Prius and Insight specs are know. Also, since the Focus is one of the choices it would make sense to include the Camry hybrid as well.

Can’t say I like the look of either of these but prefer the functionality of a hatchback. If the Insight is indeed similar to Honda’s other hybrids then we could expect low 30’s in the city and low 40’s on the highway for mileage. If this is the case, and price is $20K vs $25K for the Prius, I would pick the Prius. It has a good history of reliability, quality, and resale together with the better mileage makes it a better choice. Of course this is not considering the home court advantage, in which case the Focus is good enough to “buy American”.

Reality would be neither. The Volt is hatchback, EREV, American, and much better looking IMO; so my real choice is to wait for the Volt.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:11 pm

I see that the Fusion is capable of driving electric only up to 47 mph.

But how far is the all electric range. Speed will make a difference, but I can’t seem to find the range anywhere.
_______________________________________________

Range makes no sense when it comes to FULL hybrids.

Capacity/Speed equates to an efficiency BOOST.

Stop trying to force the SERIES measure. MPG not Range.

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frayadjacent Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Between only those three, even with the Volt in the running, you’d have this..

1. Honda Insight – Using numbers from the Civic Hybrid, which the Insight should best by a few 40/45mpg, at a cost of $19,000

2. Toyota Prius – I don’t think EPA numbers are out for gen III Prius’, but we’ll assume the same as current models – 48/45mpg at $22-29k

3. Ford Focus Hybrid – 36/41mpg at $27k

4. GM Volt – ?? or ~ City and ?? or ~ highway at $40k

Honestly, given my commute and most of my primary driving is highway, the first three choices are dang near identical by EPA ratings. I know Prius owners can get 50-55MPG in the summer, but we don’t really know what the Fusion and Insight will get…

Just based off of the prices and EPA estimates, I would go with the Honda. I think that would tide me over until a vehicle like the Volt makes it to Gen II, or comes down in price.

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N Riley Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

“Of course none of these have a plug, but if you had to pick one, which one would you and why?”
————————————-

The question was: “but if you had to pick one, which one would you and why”.

I did not chose the no plug no sale option because we were asked to chose one of the ones presented. Of course, I would definitely prefer a plug. Without the plug I would prefer the Ford Focus because of two overriding reasons: 1) It is an American auto maker and 2) It should bea slightly larger car (I don’t know about that, yet). Reason number one is a biggie, these days, for me. All my future purchases will be from an American auto maker, if at all possible.

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Adrian Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Ford

You could actually use it as a family car. Good for Ford.

No imports. If we will bailout our own car companies why then turn around and support the other guys? It is like buying stock for Home Depot but redoing your house from Lowes.

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DaV8or Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Lyle, your poll is faulty. You ask which one would you buy if you had to, and then give none as a choice. I ignored the none option because I think you were really trying to find out how we think the new hybrids are stacking up against one another.

I would buy the Mercury Milan version of the Fusion. I think it looks better inside and out. The Prius and Insight are fugly. The Ford is American made (mostly) and represents what most people keep asking Detroit to do, make competitive cars. I’m just the opposite of Samual #50, I would never buy a foreign car until I am forced to.

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CDAVIS Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:16 pm

______________________________________________________
If it is OK for us taxpayers to bailout GM, then should we not also bail out the Newspapers?

Now that we taxpayers have bailed out (partially nationalized) Banks, Automakers, and Insurance Companies, here is where our tax dollars may be going next:
http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE4BU53T20081231?sp=true

I’m sure you will all agree that it is unfair for the large news conglomerates to have to fend for themselves in this challenging economy against the smaller independent and innovative news outlets such as GM-VOLT.COM. Please help keep Newspapers alive…a lot of jobs depend on it. Democracy itself depends on it! Bail…Bail…Bail!

* Electric Cars + Nuclear Power = American Energy Independence
______________________________________________________

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm

I choose which ever one Hybrid is the easiest to “Tweak” to a plugin. Prius has known working reliable plugin mods. However, the Ford already has “up to 47mph” in all electric. So that means the Ford and Prius is a tossup. Now just let me get to the battery compartment and see how difficult it is to plop a set of Ultracaps in isolated parallel out (after step up to 330v) to the battery and add some more battery storage. This should be enough to trick the onboard computer to think the battery still has more % on SOC than the OEM specs and keep going. If not, then let me get to the binaries of the system and I’ll fix that.

OK, I’m an obvious “Tweaker”, in a technological sense that is….

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old man Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm

#17 and #42

I have drivin my 99 buick 184000 miles. At approx. 160000 miles I had to replace the intake manifold gasket due to a small leak. That is the only non normal maintenance that I have had. Seems close enough to a long term reliability test to me.

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BiodieselJeep Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm

I will never buy a new car again..unless it has a plug.

Small, used cars are ALWAYS going to be the long-term bargain. Hands down, the money saved and the decent efficiency of a modern small car is where you save money. My 1999 Jetta TDI probably sells for $4-5k, I insure it for pennies and get 45mpg…plus it has all the torque to make it fun to drive. That leaves me with at LEAST $12k to play with vs any of the lame hybridoptions above that get less mileage and cost more to insure.

The ONLY reason I’d buy a new car is if it had a plug. I vote with my dollars, as most people do, and I vote for the FUTURE.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm

Hmm…..

I don’t think the Honda can operate with the ICE turned off. At least that’s how the Civic’s are. I wonder if this fault is in the new Insight as well? If so, then I scratch it off completely from my list just as I did with the Civic.

Now if the manufacturers can just make it as easy as pushing a button to stay in EV mode and add energy capacity and disable the ICE, then that would make things much easier.

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The Grump Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm

I agree with Murray #16 – There is NO way I would commit to any of these cars without a test drive.

How hard can I accelerate before the ICE kicks in? How comfortable are the seats? How does it handle on rough roads, corners, etc? Does it use regular or premium gas? How fast can I go before the ICE kicks in? And most important, will the super-duper sized soda cups that I buy at 7/11 fit into the cupholders?

There are too many unknowns remaining to make an informed decision – Honda doesn’t even have it’s EPA-tested gas mileage yet. At least 2008 has (hopefully) taught everyone a painful lesson: Gas prices can spike uncontrolably. People are looking for better gas mileage, and even 30 MPG doesn’t cut it anymore.

Which one looks coolest? Honda, by a long shot. The Prius looks, well, dorky. And the Ford? Boring as a rental car! Yawn.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:37 pm

________________________________

SERIES and FULL hybrids don’t share the concept of range.

Your growing frustration comes from forcing comparisons.

The need for a Tech-FAQ here should be overwhelming obvious at this point.

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rob Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Just a note to the ‘buy American’ crowd: The Fusion is built in Mexico. By late next year the new US Prius plant may well be starting up, depending on demand…

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Jeffhre Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm

CaptJackSparrow #63

That reminded me that Prius drivers play a game of trying to go the farthest without the ICE starting up.

“Now if the manufacturers can just make it as easy as pushing a button to stay in EV mode and add energy capacity and disable the ICE, then that would make things much easier.”
______________________________________
I was thinking that way before myself, but since every inch you move is from burning gas, unless you install a Hymotion type conversion, it doesn’t matter if it goes EV mode for three weeks straight, the gas mileage is the only measure that makes sense to me. Unless it’s NPNS it’s only miles per gallon right?

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 12:51 pm

@john1701a 64
“SERIES and FULL hybrids don’t share the concept of range.”

For my lame brain here, enlighten me on the differences but let me give you what I percieve is the measurement and probably most others as well. The standard I think is the ablilty to go 300 miles on a full tank.
Now knucklheads like me would need to see how far a “Parallel” hybrid can go on it’s tank of 1.0 gallons till dead. The same would go for a “Series” hybrid. How far can I go with it’s tank of 1.0 gallons till dead?
BOTH have an ICE and BOTH consume petrol, therefore I percieve a MPG for this measurement because it is expected to use the entire 1.0 gallons.

In a BEV it’s a simple Miles Per Charge, so far.

I’m not trying to be a smart A$S, I just want to know.

Thanks

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:00 pm

John1701a says,
SERIES and FULL hybrids don’t share the concept of range.

Your growing frustration comes from forcing comparisons.

The need for a Tech-FAQ here should be overwhelming obvious at this point.

================
John, as I understand it, the Fusion is a parallel hybrid.
I also believe the Prius is one as well.

If so, my personal experience is this:
I had the pleasure of being a passenger in a Prius a few months ago. It was an awesome experience. This car drove a few miles before the ICE turned on. I believe it was about 3 miles.

As I understand parallel, when the ICE kicks on, both the ICE and the Electric motor turn the wheels.

Thus my question: If the Prius I was riding in can go a few miles without the ICE turning on, how far will the Fusion go? But I also understand your point somewhat. I know that the Prius would have gone farther in EV mode had the driver not put the peddle to the floor.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

@Jeffhre 67

As long as there is petrol involved for the vehicle to move, it should be in MPG. Here’s why, Series , Parallel, will require the ICE to move the vehicle whether it be by cubustion and tranfer the torque/energy to the wheels or by generating electricty by conbustion spinning a PMG/PMA it all will take petrol in the car.
Hence MPG.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:08 pm

CaptJackSparrow #70,

For a series plugin like the Volt, If I only travel 10 miles per day,
how do I calculate the MPG?

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16falcon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:09 pm

#65 john1701a Says:

SERIES and FULL hybrids don’t share the concept of range.

======================================================

True enough…but have you ever driven or owned a full hybrid (parallel)? If you drive a Full hybrid (I have a 09 Ford Escape Hybrid) you will undoubtably try to determine 2 things: First, how fast can I go in electric mode before the ICE kicks in (47 MPH for the Ford Fusion above). This must be done with very light throttle input as a heavy foot will force the ICE on immediately. In my Escape it is about 39-40MPH. The second question then becomes, how far can I go in all electric mode before the ICE comes on to recharge the battery and assist with the drive wheels. Many variables to this question since SOC of the battery when you start the test, terrain, speed, temperature etc. all affect the answer. I have not done any scientific attempts to answer this question but a gut feel is about 2 miles all electric in the best conditions for my Escape. That is the question that Rashiid Amul was asking above and it’s a valid question for anyone contemplating the purchase of a full hybrid. It is very satisfying to drive in the quiet electric mode knowing you aren’t burning any gas. Does my 2 mile AER compare at all with a 40 mile AER of a series hybrid (PHEV) like the Volt? Not at all, but it is still a number of interest if I’m driving a parallel hybrid like those in the poll above.

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Jason J Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:13 pm

No Plug, No Sale.

I’m sorry to say it but I think that my first Plug In will be a BYD. The Volt will be overpriced because of overinflated UNION wages, pensions and healthcare benefits and bad GM management.

BYD will bring their car to our shores for $10k-15k less than the Volt with more range.

Normally people wouldn’t buy a Chinese car because of the risk but the price discrepency will be so large and it will be the only other Plug In on the market so people (like me) who can’t afford the extra $10k-15k will buy the BYD.

Just think about this. BYD is selling their Plug In Hybrid in China for $22k. Let’s say that they have to raise their price 20% to meet the US safety requirements. That would increase the price to $26,400. They would then qualify for the full Plug In tax crefit from the fed because of the battery size. That lowers the price by $7500 to $18,900. If the Volt is $40k (which I believe it will be). After you subtract the tax credit, it will cost $32,500. How does GM think that they wil sell it for almost $14,000 more than BYD?

Sorry folks but if GM doesn’t get the price down to $30k (without the tax credit) they will never be able to sell these in quantity.

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stas peterson Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm

GXT,

JD Powers does produce a Three Year Reliability study too. And one unlike the Consumers Reports ones is actually statistically valid.

Go look at it you’ll be somewhat surprised.
CR originally had a usable methodology when Non-Japanese cars had 700 or 900 defects per thousand depending either you chose domestic or European. The 350 defects per thousand of Japanese EXPORTS, were superb. It was still a statistical defect since Japan reserved its own Japanese populace as guinea pigs, for it “first year models” to correct first year bugs, before exporting them. Comparisons with populations of domestic or European models that included first year buggy models was invalid, but only barely tolerable when you viewed the US market as an universe only. Besides there was a statisticsally valid quality difference. But today all the manufacturers all argue over whether each has 110 or 112 defects per thousand, this year.

But after twenty years of haranguing its readership that Japan was supreme, and its readership then taking their recommendations to buy Toyota, the CR methodology is ridiculous. Nissan, Mitsubishi and others never measured up at all, only Toyota and Honda possibly had good quality ratings.

The CR methodology consists of only taking the voluntary recommendations of the most dedicated CR enthusiasts; who has purchased on their recommendation, and bought vehicles that Never break down. But when they do, it was a fluke, doesn’t count, and much less than other lesser brands must surely do.

Or they wouldn’t be the superior discriminating, consumerists that their subscription to CR surely indicates that they are.

CR now frequently can’t even achieve a sufficient number of responses for vehicles that are top ten in sales, but not on their recommendations lists, to compile their now completely distorted statistics. This can all sound confusing. Let us use an analogy:

If you conducted a poll of respect for Blacks or Jews at ONLY a KKK meeting or a Nazi Party rally respectively, what would you think of the results?

The same statistical invalidity applies to Consumer Reports. It is past time they changed their assessment methods, but that would contrast poorly with their historical reports. It would cause many to question their authority, so they are caught on the horns of a business dilemma.

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Jeffhre Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:21 pm

CaptJackSparrow

Lets say I have a series hybrid that gets 50 mpg and 50 miles all electric. If I never drive more than 49 miles in a day, then the last time I buy gas is the day I fill up my parallel hybrid to have enough fuel to deliver it to it’s next owner. I could get my 300 mile series hybrid range by pluggin’ in every night and and staying all electric every day, never using the ICE.

Since you may need a big chunk your 300 mile range each day, calculating gas mileage for you is going to get very complicated with a series hybrid. You may want to convert electric miles to gas equivalents or make comparisons based on the cost of gas v. electric etc.

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm

#60 Rashiid Amul,
I’ve found it’s better to just not reply to john1701a. You’ll just get more upset if you do.

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Mark Z Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:34 pm

If I couldn’t wait for the VOLT, then the Ford would be the top choice. I look forward to renting one when available.

(It was after renting a Ford Escape Hybrid that got me turned on to wanting a BEV. That research resulted in finding the VOLT and the superior EREV technology.)

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm

@Jeffhre 75

That’s a common principle. If you have the ability to go 50 miles AER and you only go 45 you never use gas therfore your MPG is infinate. It’s essentially only being used as a BEV. My scenario of using up your BEV mode to empty then use your petrol mode of 1.0 gallon to empty is a little easier for me to understand.
Of course if you deplete your BEV mode and use petrol for the full tank of gas, say 10 gallons, then your average MPG will decrement logrithmically till your BEV metrics is only a fraction of the total MPG.

That’s why if I were to buy a car, it’s for a specific purpose, commute, and the AER of 40 miles for the Volt is more than ideal for me as I will never go past 25 miles round trip to work and back.

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Jeffhre Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:42 pm

My take Regarding BYD, @$22k in china.

Add about 5k for U.S. safety requirements that mandate a lot of retooling. Add about 5k for 40 mile all electric range batteries that can be warrantied at DOE standards and adaptations for US vehicle expectations for success at that price point. Add about 1k for the 2010 version and 1k for delivery from China and a bit more for the cost of U.S. dealers plus their mark-up. Figure the Volt to start about 36 to 38k in 2010. All said, there wouldn’t seem to a big price difference left, assuming both are actually sold in the U.S.

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Greg Finkbiner Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:44 pm

How long does your American car last???

I have had two

Ford Taurus all original 250k . Died by a hit from a lady.

Ford Explorer 225k currently. Needed a alternator at 185k and u joint.

See who we can beet.

All these import snobs. Well its time for the American people to talk how long there cars are lasting.

My two imports that were disasters

Audi at 85k everything went dont want to make a list

Mercadies at 150k what was left of the original car who knows. It was $$$$

I have had great luck with american cars so my next one will be american. I take care of my cars however. A lot of car owners compain about problems and most are created by bad deallers who mess up peoples cars or dont change fluids.

I.E. people complained about rear end noise in explorer but never changed there diff fluids. I do all of that and keep them running great. Maintenance of fluids are key to keeping your cars running well over 400k. When the car companies tell you to change the fluids its too late. Do it usually in half the time they tell you and you will be fine. The oil you can get like 5-8k with a good syn oil.

I have owned many foreign cars and have not been impressed. With foreign cars however its ok to have problems and call them sill great cars.

We are much harder on american products for some reason. At the audi dealler spending 5k was normal

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:46 pm

#73 Jason J Says: “I’m sorry to say it but I think that my first Plug In will be a BYD. The Volt will be overpriced because of overinflated UNION wages, pensions and healthcare benefits and bad GM management.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes, GM has cost issues, but you missed the part about the communist Chinese government artificially setting their currency very low in order to keep America importing Chinese products. That’s the bulk of the cost difference.

Also, keep in mind that BYD has no dealers in the U.S.. That doesn’t happen over night. Mechanics have to be trained. Parts have to be stocked.

As I understand it, BYD is initially aiming primarily at Chinese consumption. After all, they have a lot of people over there.

Bottom line: I would not by a car from BYD until they have a network of dealers throughout the U.S., and a proven reliability record. Even then I would feel funny buying a car from a communist country.

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Mitch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:49 pm

#64 The Grump

“Which one looks coolest? Honda, by a long shot. The Prius looks, well, dorky. And the Ford? Boring as a rental car! Yawn”

Other than the LED lights..you think there is a diff betweenthe H and the T?

Where? I had to look a half dozen times to see any real diff other than the dork nose on the T.

Holy clone wars Obi wan…you think on is dork, the other the coolest and I think they are the same friggin car! (other than a couple panels) Like saying you wouldn’t be caught dead in a cavalier, but a sunbird is ok….

What are the diffs? plz point em out..

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:50 pm

@Mark Z 77

Like the Ford Escape Hybrid huh? Check out this place:
http://www.lionev.com/Vehicles.html
AND
http://www.lionev.com/LionEV_PHEV.html

If you see the $7500 tax credit more appealing than I then it may be worth looking into for you. A little pricey though.

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JimmyG Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm

#80 I think you are by far the exception. Theres a reason Japanese have their reputation for quality. I have had nothing but good experiences with my Nissans and Toyotas in the last 10 years. Made the mistake of buying a American car the first time in 06, we bought my wife a Chevy Trailblazer and had nothing but problems. We traded it out for a Lexus, and we’ll never buy another American car again. To each his own I guess.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:57 pm

#72 16falcon .

Yes. That is what I am asking. Thanks for wording it better than I did.

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Storm Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:59 pm

How can anyone other than an ignorant federal bureaucrat ever even consider talking about MPG for an electrically powered vehicle? The whole concept is moronic.

If all your electricity is produced from gasoline as in the current hybrids, what does it matter how far or fast you can go on electric power? All that matters is engineering for the most MPG at an acceptable level of drivability and reliability.

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noel park Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:24 pm

#80 Greg Finkbiner:

1985 Suburban:

Finally retired after 430K miles. Used for everything from commuting to trailer towing. I replacement engine and about 4 transmissions, at least one of which was my fault for not catching a blown aftermarket cooler line in time. The trailer load finally got too big for the 350. Still running, I believe.

2000 S-10:

216K miles, still running strong. 1 clutch at 185K, 3 set tires and brake pads.

1995 Impala SS:

120K miles, still running strong. 1 water pump at about 100K. No other major repairs.

These cars will keep running until the Volt appears.

NPNS!

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

The proven Prius got bigger and more powerful, and kept the price realtively low? If I had to chose, I’ll take the Prius and x thousand dollars over the FFH.

The Honda seems like a decent econobox. But, I want a little more than an econobox.

p.s., Rashiid Amul – I think john1701a provides a good perspective and is not trying to be insulting. He seems knowledgeable about hybrid cars and contributes to the conversation. He may have Asperger’s syndrome, in a good way. He wants to make fine distinctions about hybrids. Be tolerant.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 pm

#80 Greg Finkbiner.

2002 Hyundai Elantra. 176,000 miles. Still going strong and I predict it will reach 300,000 miles.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 pm

ThombDbhomb # 88 says,
I think john1701a provides a good perspective and is not trying to be insulting. He seems knowledgeable about hybrid cars and contributes to the conversation. He may have Asperger’s syndrome, in a good way. He wants to make fine distinctions about hybrids. Be tolerant.

—–
I usually am, ThombDbhomb. He just set me off, that’s all. I was just asking a question. I realize there are a lot of variables when trying to calculate range in EV mode. I was just looking for an all around average. I wasn’t looking to be attacked. However, if john1701a does have a mental problem, that would cause me to be much more tolerant. By the way he attacks many people here, it wouldn’t surprise me if you are right.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:53 pm

#65 john1701a Says:

SERIES and FULL hybrids don’t share the concept of range.

======================================================

True enough…but have you ever driven or owned a full hybrid (parallel)?

_____________________________________________

No wonder there’s so much confusion. The answer to that was posted prior to asking the question, in #40… almost 170,000 miles of ownership.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 2:55 pm

…as I understand it, the Fusion is a parallel hybrid.
I also believe the Prius is one as well.
________________________________

Neither is.

PARALLEL hybrid examples are: Insight, Civic, Malibu, Vue

POWER-SPLIT (FULL) hybrid examples are: Fusion, Escape, Prius, Camry, Highlander, Tahoe

There’s profound component & operational differences that seems to elude many here. And without understanding the fundamentals, it’s proven almost impossible to have any type of constructive discussion. We keep stumbling with basic concepts still.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:05 pm

He wants to make fine distinctions about hybrids.
___________________________________

I desperately want constructive hybrid discussions to begin here.

It’s quite frustrating that progress is not being made… where’s the Tech-FAQ here? How can Volt possibly gain wide acceptance if people here aren’t making an effort identify differences in hybrid design?

Clearly identified features & abilities (design details) is woefully lacking. Sorry, but provoking the regular posters is the most fruitful way of getting results to finally emerge. Please take the hint. Volt needs more than just repetitive daily blogging.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:09 pm

SERIES Hybrid….
Then…
PARALLEL Hybrid….
Now a “POWER-SPLIT (FULL) hybrid”?
What’s that?

AS I understand Series Hybrid here is: ICE Generator + Electric Motor = Series Hybrid (Where one without the other won’t work, and breaks the Power chain)

As I understand Parallel Hybrid here is: ICE Torque Energy || Electric Motor = Parallel Hybrid (Where either ICE or Electric Motor can run independent out of the Power chain)

So what’s a “POWER-SPLIT (FULL) hybrid”?

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Detfan Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm

I’d buy the Fusion if I had to choose, but I’m waiting for the Volt, which looks like will net out to around $22,500 when it hits the showrooms. GM has said all along that are going to subsidize the cost, so that brings the $40,000 cost down to $30,000(assuming just a 25% subsidy). Toyota subsidized the Prius at 50%. Subtract the Federal tax credit of $7,500, and there you go!!

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D LO Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:24 pm

Given two equal options, I believe Americans will choose American. Unfortunately the Ford is nearly 50% more than the Honda. I don’t believe that a quality gap truly exists, but the price gap is indisputable in this particular case.
I don’t intend to buy any hybrid, as I don’t like having redundant systems . Few moving parts = fewer repairs. With the Volt only 2 years away and living outside Detroit–allowing for easier access to it once it hits the market–I can wait.

In other news, Michigan has approved large incentives to encourage production of next generation batteries in the United States:
http://blog.mlive.com/bcopinion/2009/01/michigan_makes_an_expensive_bu.html. Troy MI based Compact Power–a collaborator on the Volt project–is one of the potential beneficiaries.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:25 pm

#91 john1701a

Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for tech talk. I know you’ve been advocating a Tech-FAQ for a while. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Making technical distinctions about hybrids is akin to ICE “geeks” making distinctions about different ICEs. Some people like to get down to the nuts and bolts and resistors. Doing so on this site seems appropriate.

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:26 pm

ICE + Motor + Generator = SERIES

ICE + Motor/Generator = PARALLEL
________________________________________

ICE + Motor/Generator1 + Motor/Generator2 + PowerSplitDevice = POWER-SPLIT

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16falcon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:26 pm

True enough…but have you ever driven or owned a full hybrid (parallel)?

_____________________________________________

No wonder there’s so much confusion. The answer to that was posted prior to asking the question, in #40… almost 170,000 miles of ownership.

=====================================================

My apologies…Since you are an experienced Prius owner I wouldn’t have thought that Rashiid Amul’s question about how far the FFH could travel in electric mode would have been so confusing to you.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:30 pm

#94 D LO

“I don’t intend to buy any hybrid, as I don’t like having redundant systems..With the Volt only 2 years away…I can wait.”

That doesn’t seem clear – the Volt will be a hybrid with about as many moving parts as any hybrid.

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Schmeltz Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:34 pm

Figuring the 3 cars above are bridge vehicles until PHEVs are available, I would say that my choice would be the Ford Fusion as the most “no compromises” choice. Here’s why: It is larger than the other two choices, yet still gets fantastic mileage numbers. The Insight was suprisingly on the low side imo. The Fusion is a handsome design with the room for a family. As far as resale concerns go, I always got to wonder why people buy anything if they just want to turn around and sell it again at some point? Run the darn thing as long as you possibly can—private owners almost never “win” in the re-selling game anyway. Resale value is of little consequence to most people that are simply out to buy a vehicle to use it. I think this Fusion has a lot of promise if the price tag don’t scare too many away—that may be its Achilles heel.

The Prius and the Insight are excellent choices in their own rights, and I have no major criticisms of either. I just think of the 3, the Fusion offers the most car with the least compromises.

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Chuck B Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:38 pm

Tesla Model S anyone? $60k… all electric, no gas engine, 225+ mile AER? Alleged production 6 months past the Volt… mid-2011…

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maharguitar Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:38 pm

FYI, What if everybody drove electric or hybrid cars?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_re_us/mileage_tax

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RB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:41 pm

#91 john1701a says “Clearly identified features & abilities (design details) is woefully lacking. Sorry, but provoking the regular posters is the most fruitful way of getting results to finally emerge”
———————————————————————-

With greatest respect, I don’t think provoking the regular posters is the most fruitful way of doing any constructive. The regular posters are by and large thoughtful people with a sustained interest in the subject, good humor, and patience. In this regard, in #41 Rashiid asked an entirely sensible question.

The reason more design details are not readily available to you or others is that they have not been released by GM or other manufacturers. No one here is somehow holding them back. We are more in the position of looking at various small dots of information and seeing if we can figure out how they are connected. Often we cannot, so people simply make guesses that are consistent with the available information.

It will be fine to have a Tech-FAQ if Lyle wants to have one, but such a formatting mechanism will not provide any of us with information that is not yet available and possibly not yet known.

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16falcon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:46 pm

Wikipedia description of hybrids by

Types of drive train structure: Parallel vs Series vs Power Split

Types by degree of hybridization: Full vs Power assist vs Mild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain

Still somewhat confusing to the average consumer…According to the article, Prius, Escape, Fusion are indeed Power Split but also Full hybrids. In the past I have only read about Parallel (Prius type) vs Series (Volt type) which is apparently incorrect as what many call a parallel hybrid is really a Power Split hybrid.

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Koz Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 3:47 pm

john1701a #91

“Clearly identified features & abilities (design details) is woefully lacking. Sorry, but provoking the regular posters is the most fruitful way of getting results to finally emerge. Please take the hint. Volt needs more than just repetitive daily blogging.”

CRACK! CRUSSSHHH! Clink..clink. Better go get the plywood.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:00 pm

@16falcon 103

Yup confusing.
Phukit, I’m going to go get a beer……

Just give me a Volt, No ICE, No Generator, shaken not stirred…

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Bob McGovern Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm

Joe Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am

I want the Volt but know it won’t happen for the majority of us. The Volt will flop if it’s priced above 30 grand. Even with a supposed plug-in government rebate it’s still floating around the mid 30’s mark, last I heard.
====================================================
Tax refund Joe. A lot different than a Tax rebate.

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16falcon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:27 pm

#106 Bob McGovern Says:

Tax refund Joe. A lot different than a Tax rebate.
======================================================

Actually it’s a tax CREDIT, same as on the early hybrids only more generous. Applies as a credit against your taxes owed for the year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27462414/

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john1701a Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:37 pm

It will be fine to have a Tech-FAQ if Lyle wants to have one, but such a formatting mechanism will not provide any of us with information that is not yet available and possibly not yet known.
___________________________

I beg to differ. There’s lot of Volt detail already available, but hopelessly lost in the clutter of daily posts. Info like today’s (below) will become difficult to find after a few days too. No one is bothering to collect it for quick reference later… hence so much confusion and so many misunderstandings.

ICE + Motor + Generator = SERIES

ICE + Motor/Generator = PARALLEL

ICE + Motor/Generator1 + Motor/Generator2 + PowerSplitDevice = POWER-SPLIT

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Dave G Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:41 pm

To me there’s no confusion. Here are the relevant points:

1) Higher efficiency cars are good, but not good enough to get us off of foreign oil. We’ll need plug-ins for that.

2) Plug-ins with a small amount of electric range are not worth the trouble of daily plugging / unplugging since people still need to make frequent trips to the gas station. In order to eliminate most trips to the gas station, a plug-in will need around 40 miles of electric range. So that’s the point where plug-ins become viable for the masses.

3) Besides GM, no other car maker with a network of dealers in the U.S. has announced a production plug-in gas / electric vehicle with anything close to a 40-mile range. The Volt is the only game in town right now.

4) Since the Volt is the only game in town, I want to know more about it. That doesn’t necessarily mean I want to know more about cars in general.

Am I alone here?

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GXT Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm

73. stas peterson,

I know that JD Powers does produce three year reliability studies. All I said was those with mediocre RELIABILITY push the IQS. Watch what study is being pushed next time you see a commercial.

As for CR, it isn’t perfect, but in my opinion it is much better than JD. At least CR isn’t OPENLY for sale and their scores don’t change completely every couple of years like JD. CR best reflects my experiences and those of my acquaintances…both imports and domestics… and that includes when there are serious problems with Toyota/Honda products.

Your supposition that CR has been “haranguing its readership that Japan was supreme” but that “Nissan, Mitsubishi and others never measured up at all” makes no sense. They are Japanese too.

Your theory that Honda/Toyota owners would dismiss any issue as a “fluke” doesn’t really hold water. When filling in a survey you fill in the issues you have whether or not they are a fluke. That is how I have done CR and JD. If we want to throw generalities, some Honda/Toyota owners are so demanding that they will abandon the brand if they have even one problem. On the flip side I could claim that domestic owners are liable not to consider problem “x” even reportable because “all cars have that problem”. I had my e-brake go once on a Beretta and twice on an Alero, but my domestic-owning grampa thought I was crazy to even use the e-brake… he told me of course it would break!

I only buy Honda products BECAUSE I owned GM products, not because of CR.

Much of the other things you write are of an even lower quality than what I have responded to and therefore deserve no response.

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Dan Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:47 pm

I would put the money I would of used to buy the Ford (only one I would even consider up there other then the last option) and save it for the Volt!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 4:52 pm

From Wikipedia:
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle”

Parallel hybrid; electric & petroleum engine drive

Here, an electric motor and an internal combustion engine are installed so that they can both individually or together power the vehicle. Typical passenger car installations such as those from Toyota and Lexus use electric power for reversing, and low speed low throttle opening work because it uses less energy and does not require any energy while the car is idle, making hybrid vehicles ideal for urban and suburban environments. As the vehicle speed increases or the acceleration demanded is higher, the internal combustion engine starts and both power units work together in parallel (hence the name). Internal combustion engines deliver more power for a given motor weight, making them better suited for higher speeds. The installed electric motors and battery capacity may offer a range of 3-5km in pure electric mode, at speeds of up to 40km/h. Beyond this, the internal combustion engine is needed to either provide increased power or to re-charge the batteries.

The Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape Hybrid are examples of vehicles falling into this category.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm

John1701a

From: “http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/parallel-hybrid.html”

Although no one was mentioning the Escape:
“The Ford Escape Hybrid SUV is an example of a Parallel Hybrid application in a Sport Utility Vehicle. ”

and

“The Toyota Prius and the Toyota and Lexus Hybrid SUV’s use Parallel Hybrid technology. “

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm

Hybrid shmybrid. All the other “Hybrids” are just that, parallel series, WGAF.

The Volt is an “EV”. Take the ICE/Generator out you can go 40 Miles. The others, take the ICE/Generator out, you can go around the block and maybe make it back, depending on the block.

The most elusive aspect I think is the actual generator (PMG/PMA). Little is known about the alleged 53KW PMG. Considering just a 30KW generator is very big.

Now if it is truly 53KW, then the car can power my home!

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Arch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:04 pm

New kid on the block?

http://jalopnik.com/5122331/lotus-developing-volt+like-extended-range-electric-vehicle

Take Care
Arch

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:06 pm

#103 maharguitar .

Interesting article. I had no idea anyone was considering such a thing.

I think I would support it only if they took away the current gas tax completely. Otherwise it seems like double taxation to me.

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Arch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:07 pm

http://wot.motortrend.com/6393134/green/all-aboard-the-bandwagon-lotus-reportedly-planning-electric-car/index.html

Take Care
Arch

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:10 pm

#99 16falcon,

My apologies…Since you are an experienced Prius owner I wouldn’t have thought that Rashiid Amul’s question about how far the FFH could travel in electric mode would have been so confusing to you.

————-
Thanks for that.

I believe I spoke to George K and his wife at VoltNation.
I think he is the one who is the master of feather footing the pedal in the Prius. I bet he knows what his personal record is for the farthest he has traveled without the ICE starting up.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Lyle, I see that a couple of my messages have ended up in moderation.

I do apologize for offending thee.

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16falcon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm

#112 Rashiid Amul Says:

Parallel hybrid; electric & petroleum engine drive
…

The Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape Hybrid are examples of vehicles falling into this category.
=====================================================

I read that too. I decided that the Wikipedia explanation under “Hybrid Drivetrains” in my link above was probably more accurate where it says they are “Power Split”. I don’t know if that is the technically accurate description or not. It certainly explains why there is confusion about terminology in these hybrid designs though. I do, however, continue to learn new things from frequenting this site.

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charlie h Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 pm

#35 Dave G, “We need to find an alternative to using oil, quickly…”

You miss the point. Ten Thousand Volts. In 2011. Big whoop. Buying and encouraging the manufacture of more fuel efficient cars TODAY has an impact. Ten Thousand high-mpg cars TDOAY have an impact in the necessary timeframe.

Or just start car-pooling or riding the bus or bike. That also has an impact today.

#35 Dave G, “For example, Iran is building nukes. Their parliament is chanting “Death to America”.”

Tell me about it. No, not really, I already knew. Some of us have been pointing out the problems with oil dependence for years (like the first Arab Oil Embargo sort of pointed it out for the more astute among us) and we’ve been ignored.

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Cautious Fan Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm

I wonder if GM’s marketing research group pays Lyle to post these questions? Even though there’s only around 600 votes, the data is still valuable. He deserves to make something for it.

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Jim I Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm

Wow – Tough group here today…..

If I was forced to purchase one of the three listed vehicles today, it would probably be the Ford. I just do not like the look of the Prius or the Insight. It is a totally personal decision.

There are so many different reasons to make a purchase:

If the decision was to be based on dollars only, it would be whatever is cheapest. But I almost never buy anything for that reason. If I really like a product, and it will do what I need it to do, then price takes a few steps down.

If the reason is to stop using all gasoline for transportation, then a full BEV makes the most sense. Right now, you have golf carts and really expensive cars as your options. And range anxiety comes with all of them.

If you want an all around vehicle that will lower your gasoline consumption by over 90% (at least in my case), then an E-REV is the right decision. the Volt is the only real car that we know of that should be available in the near future.

We can argue about technical differences forever. Some will favor any of these technologies. If that is what you like, who cares what anyone else thinks? It is your money after all……….

Finally, I just do not agree that if Volt costs over $30K, it will be a total failure. I do not think that GM is looking for the Kia RIO demographic for the Gen-1 Volt. As the technology matures, I am sure models will be available for all demographics and tastes. But we have 22 months (we hope!) to go before we see the first Volt at a dealership. And it looks like they will be a very long 22 months….

JMHO

Rashid #117: I have made a few posts lately, that when I clicked “submit” have just gone away. I tried to post it again, and it tells me that it is a duplicate, but it never appears….

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Jimmy Hodges Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 5:59 pm

I want the Volt! An American made, plug in car from an American Company. If I had to pick one of the other three I guess a Ford in the next best thing to a Chevrolet. If I’m allowed to go outside the other three I’ll get a Silverado Hybrid for when I need to haul stuff and get my hands on a Volt as soon as I can for every day commuting.

Long Live General Motors!!!

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm

120 16falcon says,

I do, however, continue to learn new things from frequenting this site.

===========
You are not the only one. I do as well.

And the terminology screws me up also.
There seems to be multiple definitions for the same thing.
My degree is in IT, not engineering. Sometimes it is difficult for me to keep it all straight in my head.

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Len Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:15 pm

I really can’t afford anything right now and my Subaru Legacy which I purchased with 124k miles on it, now has 247k miles on it and is running fine. It gets 29 mpg from one tank to the next so I will continue to drive it until something expensive happens to it.

I do like the looks of the new Mercury Milan which is supposed to be available with the same hybrid setup as the Fusion. It looks like a touring car. So I guess if I could afford it and needed a car soon that might be it. If I couldn’t afford that, perhaps I would plunk down 14k for a used Insight.

Two years from now I expect the choices to be far greater.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm

Jim I #123 says,
I have made a few posts lately, that when I clicked “submit” have just gone away. I tried to post it again, and it tells me that it is a duplicate, but it never appears….

—————
Jim, that happens to me when I try to post a hyperlink. That is why I have to put them in quotes.

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frankyB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm

NPNS and Parallel Hybrid = No Sales…

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:29 pm

@Rashiid Amul 125

I get the “Waiting for moderations…” or somesh1t like that when I curse. So I just strategically spell it wrong, not mention I can’t speel or type well anyway.
)

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Zach Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 pm

#126
frankyB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm

NPNS and Parallel Hybrid = No Sales…

=====================================

frankyB, do you realize that “no plug, no sale and parallel hybrid = no sale” means that if a car has a plug or a parallel hybrid system, it will not sell? lol.

I would pick the ford, because I like its styling more. Change the color to white and put different rims on it and it would like much better than pictured here.

I think the poll should have changed to “which car appeals to you the most?” and take out the option of saying “none”. All it does is ruin the fun of the pole.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy any of them because I’m satisfied with the car I have now and because I don’t have enough money.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 pm

Charlie h #121 says
Ten Thousand Volts. In 2011. Big whoop. Buying and encouraging the manufacture of more fuel efficient cars TODAY has an impact. Ten Thousand high-mpg cars TODAY have an impact in the necessary timeframe.

————————–
Agreed, but we have to do both simultaneously.
The Volt for near future, more fuel efficient cars for today.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:35 pm

129 CaptJackSparrow

Honestly, I did misspell them. I try very hard not to curse in full words.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:37 pm

My wife wants the VOLT, but the seats better be really cozy comfortable, and it has to have Bluetooth for her phone and docking port for the iPod. Cover that and you have a sale.

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Larry Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:22 pm

“Given two equal options, I believe Americans will choose American.”

I think the exact opposite is true for the general public. Even if all things are not equal, most people choose imports. The American car would have to be so much better or cheaper or some other standout reason to get people to buy it. Most of the people I know would never buy American in any case even.

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Arch Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:27 pm

The folks that built the Doge electric sports car will be building a new hybrid SOON!

Take Care
Arch

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RB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 7:50 pm

#132 Larry says
“Given two equal options, I believe Americans will choose American.”
I think the exact opposite is true for the general public…
——————————————————————–

It may be that this preference varies markedly from one region of the country to another, or even one part of a state to another, but it seems to me to be more than an individual leaning.

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Luke Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:37 pm

I’ve had a great experience with my girlfriend’s Prius. It has 98k miles on it, with no major hassles.

For me, no plug no sale — but if she feels the need to refresh her Prius, then that’s what we’ll do. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m not positive that a Big Three company can deliver something that works as seamlessly and reliably as this tried-and-true Prius has.

As for the styling, you do have to kind-of wish you had a Star Trek shuttlecraft in your driveway in order to appreciate it — but both of us *do* kind-of wish we had a shuttlecraft, so it’s all good.

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eightjack Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:43 pm

Contrary to what this poll indicates, most buyers will choose the Prius. The American manufacturers need to absorb the new paradyme: these cars are all about the mileage numbers. Much like muscle cars were all about which one had the most horsepower, the new “horsepower” is mileage numbers. The Prius will top 48mpg, it immediately becomes the most desireable. Also, the nose of the Fusion is Gay.

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D'Artagnon Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:56 pm

The Ford Fusion looks like a mid-90s Honda Accord…

The Honda Insight looks like a Prius…

And the third generation Prius looks like…

… a Prius!

NPNS! And when can we get the EREV in a station wagon?

Best regards,

D’Artagnon

(Quote)
RB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 8:58 pm

#136 eightjack says “Contrary to what this poll indicates, most buyers will choose the Prius. ”
———————————————————————–

There is a narrow segment of buyers, maybe 2%, who will always buy a Prius, but that segment does not seem to me to be likely to extend to “most buyers.” After all, most buyers did not buy a Prius in 2008, nor does it seem at all likely that they majority will do so in 2009. Ford and GM still sell a lot of cars in the US, as does Honda and Toyota other than Prius.

I think the Prius is a great design, and it has captured a segment. But just as many in that segment would never buy anything else. many outside the segment, a much larger number in absolute terms, will never consider a Prius.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:18 pm

“Who killed the electric car? The same thing that killed it before – cheap oil.”

___________________________

Last week a barrel of oil was priced at $39. Pump gas was $1.85. This week oil cost $46. Pump gas $1.93. Pump gas will level off at about $2.30 by summer. And will continue up to $3.00 by 2010. And then $3.30 by 2011. This will be the result of manufactured conflicts in the Arab regions. And may also include political upheaval in South America.

BIG OIL will do whatever it takes to get the prices back up. They have no soul. A good example of this is President Bush mouthing off and using the “terrorism” word to describe the current small conflict in Israel. It’s just a handful of primitive rockets being lobbed back and forth. I have heard the rockets described as looking like “plumbing supplies”. This is not worth another American B1B stealth high dollar pounding. Mr. Bush should lay low until January 20th. Talking war, especially in an over spent economic condition, is simply foolish.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

The Fusion, Prius, and Insight look bad. They really are lacking. And I don’t buy into the electric drive (hybrid) feature for savings at low speeds. The driver still needs to lean on the small main drive gas engine for 80+% of his driving. This is too much to give away at any price.

I owned an 86′ Mustang. My wife owned a 97 Civic.
Mustang:
water pump at 60,000
alternator at 70,000
transmission rebuild at 110,000 ($950)
engine rebuild at 135,000 ($2000)

Civic:
cruise control stuck ‘on’ at 300 (computer)
O2 sensor failed at 20,000
power window failure 80,000
cracked exhaust manifold at 120,000

I plan on buying the Volt in the 2nd or 3rd year of production. If it were offered to me now at $45,000, I wouldn’t be interested.

=D~

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D Lo Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:04 pm

#99 ThombDbhomb
“That doesn’t seem clear – the Volt will be a hybrid with about as many moving parts as any hybrid.”

—–
Sort of. I’m not sure if the Volt executes fully on this, but in theory with an electric motor you immediately lose the transmission., belts–gone. Radiator–could be a relic. The motors could even be embedded in the wheels, so having a hood could be a thing of the past. How about independent four wheel drive, and no drive train? We are only getting started.
Again, I’m not as versed on how far the Volt will take this, but a true electric car doesn’t need many of the other systems to sustain. I’m not ready to compromise and not have a generator to extend the range, but since the Volt’s generator is not turning the wheels, I don’t see how it has to be any more sophisticated than what you use when your power gets knocked out, and not necessarily in the front.

We’ve got a lot of bright people on here, is there any way to put the ICE in another location, giving better balance and improved safety?

Of course I cited few parts = less maintenance, but should also equal lower production costs (and increased profitability for the maker)

(Quote)
Red HHR Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:28 pm

GM gave sent me an owner loyalty credit of $3000 dollars today for a GM car or truck of their choice. No Volt, or even Cobalt on the list. No Solstice either. I might consider the CR-Z when it comes out. However it would have to be red. It would be the first eastern auto for me. I have had a couple of bikes and four wheelers though.

I like the way the price of oil has come down, it would almost cause me to backslide and buy a bigger rig considering the rebates available. However the cost of oil has been creeping up. We have had a few days were the price of oil has gone up 10%!

So I may dream and say the Volt will be 30 grand (not going to happen) less the $7500 tax credit, the non existent $3000 GM credit and a $4000 GM card rebate…

Gosh that would be cheaper than my HHR, where do I sign up!

As for terminology I like full hybrid (could be range extended with modification) and mild hybrid (some regenerative capabilities) then range extended like the Volt would be. Finally full electric like the Tesla.

As most of my driving is on secondary roads with little traffic and no stop and go I would be happy with a mild hybrid, I just want to use significantly less fuel than the 30mpg I am using.

A mild hybrid Solstice(Sky) coupe that gets 50mpg highway would do nicely. Make it red with sunroof and heated seats for 22 grand and I will buy it.

Red HHR

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frayadjacent Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 pm

I like how someone said it, that the vehicles listed are ‘bridge’ vehicles.

Aside from the Volt, (which may still be years away from being 1.available and 2. commonplace/affordable) it will likely be 2015 before plugin hybrids are as viable as these three.

We will need vehicles like these to start reducing our fuel usage, while vehicles like the Volt, and the technology (batteries) they depend upon are developed and brought into mass production.

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George K Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 10:52 pm

#29 Dave G

Thanks for the link. That frequency of repair chart looks pretty embarrassing for the domestics.

Not sure what was involved. If it’s covered under warranty, I am pretty tolerant. My Prius has had a few “issues” (Nov. 04 – 45K miles), including 2 recalls. But they were fixed at no cost, and by a great service department. Never missed a service check-up.

I expect the Volt to have some “issues” as well. I just hope my local Chevy Dealer is as reliable. The Volt will be my first GM product.

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ThombDbhomb Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 11:27 pm

#141 D Lo

I see what you were getting at. The initial Volts will not be pure BEVs with wheel motors. The initial Volts will be a transition vehicle wrt automobile electrification; they will be a BEV with an ICE range extender.

Someday, I hope, pure BEVs with few moving parts will get us to our destinations with comfort, speed, and pizzaz.

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ccombs Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:16 am

I wouldn’t buy anything w/out a plug, but I have to say the FFHybrid is extremely impressive. A good transition into vehicles like the Volt until they become less expensive. Toyota just refuses to make anything more than incremental improvements and the Insight is basically an overpriced econobox masquerading as a cheap hybrid. Slap a diesel on it and ditch the electric motor and it would be half the price and almost as efficient.

No plug, no sale.

(Quote)
Ron Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 am

The Honda and Toyota both look like a bad 1960’s sci-fi movie prop. The Ford brings something to the table that Ford hasn’t had before. I would consider it if I was in the market, but I’ve got the transportation department very well covered for now so I don’t “need” a new car for several more years. When I can buy a true American Revolution EREV vehicle, I’ll probably still wait a bit to finish wearing out what I’ve got. Once I get into the “I NEED to buy a new car” situation rather than the “I suppose a new car would be nice” situation, it will absolutely be No Plug = No Sale because by then EREV vehicles will be available from several companies…

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frankyB Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:52 am

#129 Zach Says

frankyB Says:
January 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm

NPNS and Parallel Hybrid = No Sales…

=====================================

frankyB, do you realize that “no plug, no sale and parallel hybrid = no sale” means that if a car has a plug or a parallel hybrid system, it will not sell? lol.
=====================================

Yes that is exactly what I said… Parallel Hybrid with or without a plug is a no go for me… it’s placebo… you fell good inside because you have an hybrid, but a sub-compact car get the same MPG.

I prefer to wait and save my $$ for a Serie Hybrid like the volt or a full EV.

(Quote)
Cautious Fan Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:59 am

Sounds like Lotus may throw their hat into the EREV ring. The more the merrier. Unlike the EV1, this thing is not a one trick pony.

http://wot.motortrend.com/6393134/green/all-aboard-the-bandwagon-lotus-reportedly-planning-electric-car/index.html

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Cautious Fan Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 1:08 am

On my last comment I got a note saying “your comment is awaiting moderation.” What does that mean?

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Lurtz Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:33 am

I can get a used first generation Prius for about $8k — and for another $7k, convert it to be a “plug-in”.

“I don’t know if Toyota meant to do it, but they gave us a car that’s easy to hack into and easy to improve,” says Mr. Sherwood, an electrical engineer and co-owner with Mr. Guzyk of 3Prong Power Inc., which has set up shop in a defunct Cadillac dealership building in Berkeley, Calif. It charges about $7,000 for the conversions, one of several such shops in California doing such work.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123059301640740831.html

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 4:15 am

hi Cautious Fan #149,

“On my last comment I got a note saying “your comment is awaiting moderation.” What does that mean?”
_________________________________

Hee hee, that sure is an Orwellian pop up. If anyone needs screening it’s me and statik. Thank God we live in a free country and can still say what’s on our mind.

BTW.. I enjoy reading your posts. And look forward to everyone’s views during this next year of Volt development.

=D~

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:04 am

“… it should be worth the wait. When I see GM standing before Congress, I think of the Volt, not those thousands of trucks sitting unsold at Chevy dealers.”

http://www.statesman.com/life/content/life/stories/cars/01/03/0103volt.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=48

=D~

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George K Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:48 am

119 Rashiid Amul
“I believe I spoke to George K and his wife at VoltNation.
I think he is the one who is the master of feather footing the pedal in the Prius. I bet he knows ”
—————–

Yes. You were one of the very good people we met that day. Aren’t you from New England area? Look forward to the next time!

Actually, just under 2 miles. That is after exiting the freeway, and the bat is supercharged from regen braking down from 60 mph. My garage is slightly down hill from the freeway exit.

Epalog:
The next time you start the car, the engine works to recharge the bat back up to “normal”, and mpg’s go down.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm

156 George K.

Yes. It’s me. I’m from Connecticut.

Thank you for the answer. I just couldn’t get John1701a to understand this.

I thought it was about 2 miles, but the ride I took was a little longer. Half of it was downhill though, so I would think that helped a lot.

Thanks again, George K. Say hi to your wife for me.

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nataraj Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:36 pm

None. The current 10 yr old Nissan I drive hopefully will last until a viable EV comes along at a down-to-earth price. I guess that means iMiEV is my only hope ….

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Mark Wagner Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:59 pm

I am glad to see that more fuel efficient options are coming — and more importantly that a U.S. manufacturer will have a seriously efficient hybrid sedan. However I don’t believe the Ford Fusion is be made in the U.S., therefore it is not for me.

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George K Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 3:13 pm

Rashiid Amul

Your question WAS valid. Pulse and Glide, aside, you can time your trips so that the last X miles (insert answer to your question here) is in ev mode. Reason being, there are prescribed times ll’s need to run the engine, like: warm up catalytic converter, run cabin heater, charge battery, and speed issues.

If you know these, you can play them. One quick example: Prius ALWAYS runs engine w / i 7 seconds of start up to warm things up. It will run for several minutes or longer depending on temperature. So, you might as well have drained your battery (ev mode) just before you get to your destination. Its going to run when you turn it on whether bat is full or empty.

Frankly, I’m so into ev mode, I’m getting my Prius converted to a PHEV next week! Roughly 25 ev miles! Can’t wait!

Happy New Year!

=D~~~~

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Rashiid Amul Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 8:05 pm

George K #160 says,

Frankly, I’m so into ev mode, I’m getting my Prius converted to a PHEV next week! Roughly 25 ev miles! Can’t wait!

————–
George, that is so cool. Hymotion by any chance? Good luck with that.
I would love to hear how you like the PHEV once you have driven it a little.

Thanks for explaining the Prius to me.

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George K Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 9:25 pm

Rashiid Amul
“George, that is so cool. Hymotion by any chance? Good luck with that.
I would love to hear how you like the PHEV once you have driven it a little.”

Yep!!! We’re driving from Chicago to Minneapolis, on Wed eve as that is the closest installation site. Takes a day and 1/2.

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Steven B Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 3:50 am

I voted for the Insight. I really, really like the Fusion, but I personally consider it unnecessarily large for my lifestyle. I own a 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid, and it is the best car I could ask for, though I do sometimes get envious of people driving 2nd gen Civic Hybrids. Also, I voted against the Prius because I don’t like the look of the redesign. I know it’s a great car. An improvement on one of the best cars ever produced, but I’m just not that into it. I like Ford a lot, though you may not believe me, and love Honda. Toyota’s reputation is way up there as well. But, as I said, I went with the Insight because I believe it to be what I would actually buy if I didn’t necessarily intend my next car to be a Chevy Volt. But honestly, I think they’re all awesome, and am very happy about the direction car companies have decided to go with new car technology and design.

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john1701a Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Asking about electric-only range for a FULL hybrid is pointless, like the commonly asked question of top-speed for traditional vehicles

When the FULL hybrid engine runs, battery-pack recharging occurs. So the concept of “range” is skewed anyway.

After 2 years of daily blogs, expecting constructive questions like battery-pack capacity, consumption-rate, and depth-of-discharge is reasonable. Instead, we’re still stuck on just the basics… despite so much time and the urgency for promoting hybrids.

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Zita Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 3:30 pm

This poll makes no sense to me because we are comparing 3 different SIZES/CLASSES of cars, Insight being the smallest (it is based on Jazz) and Fusion the biggest. So normally they are not direct competition to each other.
If I had to buy a hybrid car, it would be HONDA CR-Z!

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Van Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 4:29 pm

I did not read the thread so if this is redundant, sorry. I voted for the Toyota Pruis because with the “L-5″ Hymotion modification (add $10,000) it would be the first Plug-in I could drive. With the modification, it would have an AER (under 62 MPH) of approximately 25 miles.

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Larry Parylla Says:
January 5th, 2009 at 12:01 am

With me it isn’t a question of what if, I am on my second hybrid. The first one was a Lexus RX400H. I ended a 3 year lease 14 months early to upgrade to a Lexus GS450H. I love the Lexus but I hate the factory GPS/NAV unit because it won’t let me input info while the car is moving. The Lexus lease expires in June of 2011 hopefully there may be a luxury full electric by then. If there isn’t I will just keep the Lexus and buy out the lease

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David Says:
January 5th, 2009 at 10:32 am

The Toyota Prius currently has a 1.5 L engine

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Whistleteeth Says:
January 5th, 2009 at 2:21 pm

plug me in

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jeff Says:
January 5th, 2009 at 3:25 pm

I would like to see GM recover from this economic lack of spending and financial hard time. I can garauntee that who ever cuts the oil supply line to the middle east and conglomerit corporate potbellies will reign victorious for centuries. The people need saving from the control that is dictated by money and money power we are sick of it and need a break
GM produce that car that will be the cleanest, longest lasting, 0 maintenance, and hot pluggable in 50 years, not just industry best……c’mon go all out, heads up….lets see what you got.

long live EV1

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KJ Says:
January 6th, 2009 at 3:23 pm

Never will I buy american again… UAW has too much power and gives money to people and causes I do not support…

it is truly a shame that a car companies have become political slush funds and mobs..

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Herman Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 6:27 am

My first choice would be no plug no sale… as most of us We want to move forward..

As for design. I dont really like the ford.. again still oldfasioned. * sigh * ( maybe for old people it’s good looking =D )

The last prius was better then this one.. its even more uglier as the prius was !!!

As for the honda… omg! I love the design very futuristic! But the ima isnt as good as the toyota’s engine..

Design: Honda
Daily drive: No Plug No Sale!!!!!

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Herman Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 6:34 am

About the ford… a question?

Why do americans still need to get the HP from the amount of liters in the cylinders. It will only get your car less efficient.
Smaller engines are more efficient. And if you tune up the small engine with the same ammount of horse power you have..
” A better engine ” on every side.

You don’t get an efficient car by making a big huge gas guzzler into a hybrid =D .. it makes me laugh!

2,5 liters !! geezz and that is only getting 155 hp?
Could atleast cut 1 liter off… And get better milage!

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Han Joverseon Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 4:48 pm

I voted for the LOW PRICE but realistically will likely not be able to afford ANY NEW CAR!!! DAMMIT! I’m just an average PEON. The one I WANT is the Chevy VOLT but will never be able to afford one!

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Don Says:
February 26th, 2009 at 3:37 pm

It has been said (above):
3) Besides GM, no other car maker with a network of dealers in the U.S. has announced a production plug-in gas / electric vehicle with anything close to a 40-mile range. The Volt is the only game in town right now.

4) Since the Volt is the only game in town, I want to know more about it. That doesn’t necessarily mean I want to know more about cars in general.

Am I alone here?

______________________________________________
My answer is YES. The Volt is not the only game in town because it is not in the game. We have been promised the GM superstar for many years but, to date, nothing. In order to play the game, you must have players. I waited for the “great promised one” for too long and finally, about a year ago, decided to play the game with an available player. That ended in selecting the Prius. I must say that I am quite pleased with my decision and after yet another year, the Volt is still coming “any day now”. Whenever the Volt finally arrives at an affordable price, I will consider one. It seems possible to have driven the Prius 100,000 miles or so by that time.
I feel good about playing the game now. We won the superbowl last year and may do it again this year unless some better players show up to play instead of just telling us how good they are without actually playing.

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Fred Blandford Says:
August 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am

Gm isn’t bankrupt because the union helped them build good cars. I know. I put in 34 yrs with them. You can see the quality riding on the road every day. Paint over unprepared metal, now falling off. Now I’m told the union has part ownership of my bankrupt company and the government some of the rest. When my pension is kissed goodbye like the health care and the union is still sitting & smiling at our expense I’ll probably buy a Kia and move down south out of the land of taxes here in NY. If you remember the Corvair and all the other experimental cars GM made I wouldn’t put any faith in the Volt. Another thought. Who’s going to pay to offset the loss in gas revenues? You guessed it. Special taxes and fees on electric vehicles and increases in electric rates that will make every home owner wish they were never produced.

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Poll: Which 2010 Hybrid Would You Buy?

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