GM is now in an improved financial position compared to earlier in the month. Primarily because of the first installment of federal loans received Monday, they can continue to operate.
In addition, the federal government just gave $5 billion to GMAC, GM’s financial company, and have allowed them to become a bank holding company. With this money, GMAC has now become much more able to loan money to potential carbuyers. Lack of credit available to consumers with less than perfect credit has stymied any potential for auto sales recovery.
Immediately after the GMAC infusion, GM began offering 0% interest 60 month loans on select models to carbuyers whose credit scores are greater than 621.
GM vice-president of NA Mark LaNeve noted that December’s sales were actually better than November’s. And the new available credit for car loans should continue to improve GMs position.
Of particular interest to us here was Mr. LaNeve’s revelation that GM has 10,000 pre-orders for the new Camaro set to be released this Spring (assuming they can get tools from a newly bankrupt supplier). Since the Camaro is a brand new car with pent-up demand, its release could be in some ways analogous to what happens when the Volt arrives. Except the Volt of course will be more regionally limited and limited to dealers willing to obtain the training necessary to service an E-REV. Not to mention there would be a presumably different customer profile.
LaNeve did not specify exactly what was meant by pre-orders and I asked GM if that was at the dealership or corporate level.
“Mark didn’t specify. He did mention they were orders with deposits,” said GM spokesman John McDonald, “A lot of folks can’t wait for the Camaro!”
Of note, the official Camaro website states people have been only able pre-order the cars at local Chevy dealerships from October 13 2008.
So the question is what will happen with the Volt? Will the demand be even greater? And how can our GM-Volt.com unofficial waiting list of nearly 50,000 get into the mix? These are some of the challenges that lay ahead for us.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, December 31st, 2008 at 6:57 am and is filed under Marketing. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Dec 31st, 2008 (7:14 am)The Volt will have to sell in high numbers to make a difference.
Let’s hope that GM prices it as they promised – under $30,000. GM VP John Lauckner indicated he expects the Volt to cost in the mid 30s:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/17/car-and-driver-on-the-volt-tens-of-thousands-in-first-year-generation-two-after-5-years/
and the governement is issuing a $7500 tax credit, so I’m still hopeful the final price will be under $30K.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (7:28 am)Lyle, I have an idea.
GM will obviously be focusing their initial Volt launch in certain areas. How about if you create a poll of which states people on this forum live in? This demographic info might help GM focus their initial launch, and it would be fun for us as well.
Just a thought…
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Dec 31st, 2008 (7:33 am)Lauckner almost certainly means mid-$30s AFTER the tax credit.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (7:34 am)Lyle’s post asks “So the question is what will happen with the Volt? Will the demand be even greater? And how can our GM-Volt.com unofficial waiting list of nearly 50,000 get into the mix?”
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An even bigger question is how much interest GM will have in production of the Volt, now that the Escalde and Camaro are once again easily financed. The Volt has been a huge asset to GM as a symbol, and no doubt they will continue the promise of EREV and the Volt into the Obama administration, because it has huge symbolic value. But the Volt may be worth more as a hope for things to come, like the hydrogen car, than as an actual production vehicle.
That is, right now the “sale” of the Volt is to the federal government, where its symbolism justifies $Billions and makes CEO Wagoner a hero. In contrast, sale of physical Volt cars will bring on some recognition of its limitations and inevitably make evident some issues or problems. Really, the Volt is a car that is worth more unbuilt than built. The sizzle is worth more than the steak.
Of course, GM knows this even better than we do. We see little or no progress in any real Volt production activity, such as an engine factory or a production line. Everything is promises, which is great for GM because promises are like clouds. To me this kind of handwaving is distasteful, but you have to give GM credit — it is working, and for big big money too.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (7:41 am)“Even if we have to forego most or all of our profit, it’s still going to be a reasonably expensive car,” said Lutz. – Quoted in “Car and Driver” Oct, 2008.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (7:52 am)Doesnt matter!
After toyotas electric and the china made electric on the road for a couple of years most people who want electric will have one.
Add to that the higher cost of the volt and GM reputation of inferior quality and you have a recipy for failure.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:01 am)#4 RB Says: “We see little or no progress in any real Volt production activity, such as an engine factory or a production line.”
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The gas engines for the Volt are already being built by GM’s Opel plant in Germany. I believe GM always planned to use these engines for the first production Volts.
The idea was to get the American engine plant up and running shortly thereafter, within the first year of Volt production. It looks like this will be delayed by at least a few months, but that won’t delay engines being produced for the Volt.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:16 am)#6 THOM Says: “After Toyota’s electric and the China made electric on the road for a couple of years most people who want electric will have one.”
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1) I would never buy a pure BEV. Range anxiety.
2) I wouldn’t buy a plug-in hybrid with only 8-15 miles of electric range. Not worth the hassle of daily plugging/unplugging. Still need frequent trips to the gas station.
3) I would never buy from a company with no reliability track record and no network of dealers throughout the U.S.. Too much risk.
I believe most car buyers will agree on these 3 points. So where does that leave Toyota and BYD?
To be clear, I really wish Toyota would build a plug-in gas/electric with something like a 40-mile range, but they have indicated they will not. I would take any car that fixed the 3 issues above for a reasonable price, but nobody has announced a production vehicle. The Volt is the only game in town right now.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:22 am)#3 charlie h Says: “Lauckner almost certainly means mid-$30s AFTER the tax credit.”
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If the Volt is priced significantly over $30K after tax credits, most people won’t even consider it (myself included).
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:29 am)#7 Dave G says “The gas engines for the Volt are already being built by GM’s Opel plant in Germany. I believe GM always planned to use these engines for the first production Volts.”
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Yes, and GM is “pre-producing” 25-50 Volts even now. Obviously they can cobble together enough parts to make a few Volts or Volt-like “pre-prototypes” (or whatever they call them today). But GM has done nothing (that we know of) to create any sort of production line, or production quantities, or contracts for any of the above. The Volt project seems to be basically in ’someday’ status along with the hydrogen car. Volt is more definite in that there is a date (Nov 2010) repeated frequently, but that date can be met by delivering a few of the hand-made cars to a few dealers in CA. What comes thereafter is yet unknown, but it is not promising that we see no progress even toward the first 10K.
I realize that GM has a tremendous interest in talking about Volts, for it is their symbol of being green. GM is a company that generates its income by making big ICE vehicles, and the gas-hog company is the one that has been bailed out. They do big ICEs well, and those biggies are the vehicles that generate big revenue. The Volt has tremendous value rhetorically as a green symbol that can be flashed around to change the subject when people grow annoyed with bailing out Escalades. How much interest there is in GM in actually producing Volts is not yet known, but it is a challenge to detect. The hard truth (hard for us at gm-volt anyway) is that the Volt may be of more interest to GM as a vision of the future (always to be realized real soon now) than as an actual vehicle to be sold.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:31 am)The initial cost is so high because of pricing in a battery warranty. GM could either allow the consumer to take the risk on a battery failure and offer an optional battery warranty, or give the consumer a $10k credit on their next vehicle purchase for an unused battery warranty. Because of the time/value of money, I’d prefer to take the battery risk and only fork over an extra $10k when the battery actually fails. Otherwise, early adopters will be penalized, much like the iPhone enthusiasts.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:32 am)The discussions about pricing the Volt have been clear at least from my perspective. The Volt will be a 40K+ car with a rebate to hopefully bring it into the mid 30s. Some seem to have begun thinking it is now a mid 30s priced car and hope the rebate will bring it into the upper 20’s. That has never been the case from my reading of the tea leaves from GM statements. I fully expect the Volt to cost 39,997 base and 42-45 with some standard options.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:34 am)HOM Says:@7
“Doesnt matter!
After toyotas electric and the china made electric on the road for a couple of years most people who want electric will have one.
Add to that the higher cost of the volt and GM reputation of inferior quality and you have a recipy for failure.”
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Easily said but not easily done. China and would you believe Toyota are not really technological companies. Sure Toyota contributed the Prius but they’ve done much nothing else. In order to do the Prius they had to steal other companies technologies. They got sued and lost in court. The real companies to watch for are the domestics, if only they can get on a level playing field, Then, the glory days of Toyota and Honda will be over. Mark my words.
AS for China they have to prove to the world they can build cars w/o the help of outside companies. Designing cars is not something that’s learned overnight. It takes many decades.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:38 am)I listened to GM execs answer questions about the Volt production when they were begging for money from Congress. They claim, and I believe them on this particular issue, that a lack of an engine plant will not delay the Volt. In there words, they claim a world wide manufacturing base that can be tapped for the initial run of Volts.
Basically, if GM needs 10,000 4 cylinder engines, they have the means of getting them. The engine plant (and other items that would be needed for full production of the Volt in 2011 and 2012) will not be needed right away to produce 10,000 or 50,000 Volts in year 1 and 2.
That said, GM may come up with 10 other reasons to delay the Volt.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:45 am)As I have often stated, products that optimize a single feature (or set of features), while providing “good enough” performance in other areas, always win out over vehicles that compromise on all aspects.
The new Chevy Camaro optimizes performance / styling, while delivering “good enough” mileage, safety, quality, etc. I suspect that the Chevy Volt, which optimizes fuel efficiency by being all electric for a limitied range, with a range extender for greater range, while being “good enough” on styling, performance, safety, quality, etc., will also sell very well.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:49 am)14 nuclearboy notes “They claim, and I believe them on this particular issue, that a lack of an engine plant will not delay the Volt. In there words, they claim a world wide manufacturing base that can be tapped for the initial run of Volts.”
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I agree, but importing engines from Europe will make the Volt more expensive to produce. Moreover, the same engine is needed for Cruze. Volt cannot be built without Cruze, for the Volt is a Cruze variant in terms of all its major chasis, suspension, and body parts. To import engines for Volt means import engines for Cruze, which also does not seem to be progressing toward existing.
It’s not to say that Cruze/Volt won’t happen — either can happen in the small quantities needed for symbolism. Mr Wagoner drove one to the Capitol building. Also, no doubt GM can put together a plan to make larger numbers. I just question their interest in doing so, now that they are on track to be bailed out, and wonder whether Volt might really be more valuable as a concept and a promise than as a reality.
Thought about this way, the Volt is already a huge success for GM, for Mr Wagoner, and for Mr Lutz, in that it has justified $ billions from the feds. Is anything more really needed?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:49 am)#13 Joe
:… if only they can get on a level playing field, Then, the glory days of Toyota and Honda will be over. Mark my words.”
And this is where most people fail to realize the truth..Asian countries have “polite” ways of delaying, charging more, or limiting imports. Free trade is not FAIR trade.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:53 am)#16 RB
“… To import engines for Volt means import engines for Cruze, which also does not seem to be progressing toward existing.
It’s not to say that Cruze/Volt won’t happen…”
Cruze is a go..I posted this link in the NEWS forum a couple days ago, Wagoner put about 350 mil to Lordstown, and the other 150 mil of the 500 m,llion investment is for the 1.4l engine plant in flint.
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/News/article.aspx?cp-documentid=9639580
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:57 am)#7 Dave G
The gas engines for the Volt are already being built by GM’s Opel plant in Germany. I believe GM always planned to use these engines for the first production Volts.
The idea was to get the American engine plant up and running shortly thereafter, within the first year of Volt production. It looks like this will be delayed by at least a few months, but that won’t delay engines being produced for the Volt.
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I’m going to go with RB on this one.
If you mean that a similar 4 banger is also being produced elsewhere by GM you are correct, (the Volt specific/naturally aspirated 4 is actually a new ‘member’ of the family). But if you meant that GM at anytime was looking to convert these engines for any point of Volt production you are wrong.
Official press release:
“FLINT , Mich. – General Motors Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner today announced that the company will invest $370 million in the U.S. to build a new manufacturing plant for its global 4-cylinder engines in Flint, Mich. The plant will begin production in the U.S. in 2010, and will be the exclusive manufacturing facility in North America to produce the Chevrolet Volt’s range extending engine”
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=48936
GM has done virtually nothing in the first 2 years of the Volt’s ‘life,’ well..they have done a few things (mostly make 3rd party battery contractors jump through hoops), but I think even you would agree they would be hard pressed to have made less progress over this period.
Side note: GM is worried about the pre-order/demand on the Camaro, regardless of this 10K number…all you have to do is look at the ‘order curve’ of the last gen Camaro to see a similar trend unfolding. They are getting the fanatic Camaro buyers as expected, but not much else (the initial 6,000 were overwhelming the V8…I’ve not seem the adjusted 10K splits). Initial production has been chopped from 140K to 80K in anticipation of weaker than expected demand.
Side, side note: If you lived where I do, you would think the Camaro has been out for a year and was a real hot number. I was filling up at my local Esso station a couple days ago and there was not 1, but 2 Camaro SS’ filling up beside me. I think I mentioned this before on the forums, but I almost obliterated one on a back road a few months back.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:58 am)I am one who placed a Camaro order. I ordered the morning of the October 13th, and did receive an order number. I have till near when production starts to make changes to my order. The wife wants the Volt, and I’d like to see her with it. This and the Camaro5 forum are the two I actively par.ticipate in. I think there will be some simulatities to the ordering process, but agree with the differences you mention
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:07 am)I for one hope they look first to the 50,000 who’ve signed up here and do some kind of lottery. I’m very eager to get behind the wheel of a Volt, so much so that I have delayed purchasing a new vehicle until it’s available.
I believe that GM’s design is the only viable option to get electric vehicles adopted by the public. eFlex will not only be successful, but will save GM and put the American auto industry back in the forefront for the first time in thirty years. eFlex should have been the design for the EV1 as it’s a practical solution that won’t leave drivers stranded when the battery runs low.
There’s an interesting related discussion on my blog that even got some execs at Tesla motors interested enough to respond:
http://www.lonseidman.com/2008/12/the-biblically-fast-electric-car-needs-a-practical-refueling-solution/
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:08 am)I’ve always thought of the Volt as a bridge to an electric car future. You get the benefits of electric without range anxiety. If there is significant adoption of the Volt and it’s ilk we’ll see an electric-charging infrastructure show up and we can make some real steps toward getting off oil.
That being said, the real potential Volt killer is the Honda Insight which has it’s production debut in ~3 weeks at the Detroit Auto Show. While Honda hasn’t released official numbers, the rumor mill has it getting 70 mpg with cost of only $18,000. If this is true, the 5-passenger Insight would be nothing short of a miracle. Also, the 2009 Insight should be available in just a few months. If traditional IC engine cars are getting this kind of MPG (along with Honda quality), I don’t see how a 50mpg Volt can compete at $40K.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:08 am)A stand alone Volt enterprise in right-to-work states could probably attract enough venture capital to get into production and maybe even make a profit – especially if our lame government recognizes the STRATEGIC (not green) importance of incubating a domestic electric car industry. The battery R&D and production consortium(3M,FMC others) mentioned in a previous thread is an important part of this strategy. In an unfair trading environment, we require aggressive monetary support from government for the ‘logical’ industries(no more corn ethanol(pork barrel) fiascoes). Then they need to get out of the way – no ownership or interference from our bloated and corrupt political demagogues.
So, GM probably still has to re-organize under Chapter 11 according to the pundits. Then maybe we get a Volt.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:12 am)#4 RB Says: “We see little or no progress in any real Volt production activity, such as an engine factory or a production line.”
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I see/hear/read/work on things regarding production. Some of it is bidding on projects regarding the Volt pieces/assembly.There’s a lot to it, and it seems to go in baby steps. Most got put on hold, while all the financial issues were in full swing this month, because none of the suppliers knew if there would be any cash for their equipment.
The wheel contract was announced. I dont see much more “announcements” or new information till summer 09 and/or 1 year from now during the shutdown periods when a lot of equipment will be installed. That’s a good time to find out a lot of details that aren’t published. You can also search the web for when GM releases public project bids, and look what equipment the bid is for.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:16 am)10,000 deposits/waiting for Camaro is not a lot.
I would give a deposit for a Volt and 2-mode Plug-In VUE.
I will not buy or lease any new vehicle that doesn’t have a lithium ion battery and a plug. I don’t care if I have to wait 5 years. I don’t care if gas prices drop to .75 cents a gallon.
NPNS!
NPNS!
NPNS!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:28 am)#24 k-dawg says “The wheel contract was announced.”
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I’m not trying to be too technical here, but I remember an announcement that the wheel vendor had been selected (standard vendor of such things), but not an announcement that there was a contract. My thought is that vendor selection implies an intention to make a contract at some time in the future, or maybe that contract negotiations are in progress, but not commitments. Am I mistaken?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:29 am)#18 Mitch says “Cruze is a go..I posted this link in the NEWS forum a couple days ago, Wagoner put about 350 mil to Lordstown, and the other 150 mil of the 500 m,llion investment is for the 1.4l engine plant in flint.”
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Thank you. I missed your earlier post and am glad to know that.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:32 am)#16 RB
” I just question their interest in doing so, now that they are on track to be bailed out, and wonder whether Volt might really be more valuable as a concept and a promise than as a reality. ”
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I believe they are interested, as will be the rest of the public, when gasoline hits $4~$5 per gallon again. A lot of us here are interested in the Volt for many different reasons, but I would say mainstream America cares about their pocketbook the most. I can’t predict the year the lines will cross, where the cost of gas will be high enough, and the cost of the Volt technology will be low enough, that its a no-brainer to buy a Volt (or any E-rev) to save $, but if i had to guess, I’d say within 6 years. This is based on my opinion that electric cars are the future, but tomorrow someone may come up with something radically new.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:37 am)The more I think about it and read about the first gen Volt – I’m not sure I would want one of the first ones to come off the line. Even though I’m in the low 4 figures on the waiting list and I would be excited to have one – there appear to be too many issues cropping up here and there to jump up to be the first in line.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:40 am)#28 k-dawg says :I believe they are interested, as will be the rest of the public, when gasoline hits $4~$5 per gallon again. A lot of us here are interested in the Volt for many different reasons, but I would say mainstream America cares about their pocketbook the most.
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I agree that for most people price (real and perceived) is the strongest driver, although obviously people are looking in various vehicle catagories. So for the Volt is GM wiser to let Volt development move slowly until gas prices start to rise again?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:40 am)#26 RB Says:
December 31st, 2008 at 9:28 am
#24 k-dawg says “The wheel contract was announced.”
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I’m not trying to be too technical here, but I remember an announcement that the wheel vendor had been selected (standard vendor of such things), but not an announcement that there was a contract. My thought is that vendor selection implies an intention to make a contract at some time in the future, or maybe that contract negotiations are in progress, but not commitments. Am I mistaken?
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I’ll have to read up to see if any money changed hands. And if Alcoa is buying any new equipment to supply those wheels. All the money trickles down, but until GM starts the ball rolling (with cash), nothing happens. Once a contract is signed and the initial 10%, 15% or whatever was agreed on, of the cash is dished out, things go into action and shedules appear. I am most familiar with this in regards to integrators at the big 3 assembly plants, vs stand alone suppliers who just ship a part. But i still think it all hinges on money changing hands. You could be right, it was only an intent. I’ll see if I can find anything.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:46 am)RB,.
I found this in a few articles. “Alcoa Automotive Wheels has secured a contract to provide wheels for GM’s upcoming Chevy Volt hybrid.”
So something was signed, but I’m not totally familiar with Alcoa’s relationship with GM. They provide a lot of wheels for GM, so adding the Volt product may not be such a huge deal.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:50 am)Now that the money is flowing to GM, where is the battery contract announcement? I would have expected it right after the first loan installment. Apparently there is no final contract or they are not close in closing the deal for any number of reasons. OK, GM. Time to confess up.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:51 am)#32 k-dawg –> Thank you. Maybe (I hope) things are further along than I thought.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:53 am)Since Lyle mentioned GMAC–they released results of the debt for equity swap:
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GMAC says it raised $21.2B in debt swap, but appears to remain shy of reaching capital goal
NEW YORK (AP) — GMAC Financial Services LLC says it raised $21.2 billion in a debt-for-equity swap, but appears to remain shy of its capital-raising goal needed to qualify to become a bank holding company.
The lending arm of General Motors Corp. says it raised $17.5 billion in the exchange offer with noteholders, while its home-loan segment, Residential Capital, raised $3.7 billion.
The announcement comes after GMAC was promised a total of $6 billion in aid from the Treasury Department. That would bring the total amount of cash raised or promised to $27.2 billion — $2.8 billion shy of the $30 billion needed for the lender to become a bank holding company.
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What does this mean? Nothing…the gov’t basically does whatever it feels like, regardless of law or consequence.
Other tidbits: We know that GMAC lowered the score to 621 and announcing 0% financing as soon as they got this cash, but what does that really mean? It means that 78% of the population have a credit score that high…and now qualify. At the hearings Wagoner said that only customers with 770+ were getting approved (thats top 10%).
Bascially, any Joe with a job, can hit that benchmark. GMAC is going right back out and doing the same thing that got them into this mess. They are giving away cars to prop up GM/Chrysler sales.
Last year GMAC financed almost 50% of all GM sales, in November it was down to 6%. With this new lax lending standard, I’m guessing we can predict that GM car sales will ‘miraculously stabilize’ and that the consumer confidence is rising and the ‘recovery plan’ is working.
So far, the cost to the American taxpayer is only 72 billion for the first two weeks ($500/per employed person)…quite a deal.
*toot-toot* <–inflation train is coming
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:55 am)#33 N. Riley asks “Now that the money is flowing to GM, where is the battery contract announcement?”
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Yes, one does wonder. A related question is how they are getting the batteries that they are using for their 25-50 pre-prototypes they have said they have already built. Do these prototypes really have Li-ion batteries? Is GM just buying batteries one by one?
[Just imagination: GM man walks into auto parts store in an industrial district of Detroit and says "please one more battery today?"
]
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:55 am)30
RB Says:
#28 k-dawg says :I believe they are interested, as will be the rest of the public, when gasoline hits $4~$5 per gallon again. A lot of us here are interested in the Volt for many different reasons, but I would say mainstream America cares about their pocketbook the most.
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I agree that for most people price (real and perceived) is the strongest driver, although obviously people are looking in various vehicle catagories. So for the Volt is GM wiser to let Volt development move slowly until gas prices start to rise again?
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I think you build it, then continuously improve on the design, and stay ahead of the curve. Gas prices will rise eventually (that’s a given) but no one can truely predict when & how much. Gas shot up 20 cents here on Tuesday, and people blew gaskets. I dont get into the gas price debates too much, or wait at the station to save 3cents per gallon, but I only drive 24 miles/day. If my budget was $100/week on gas, I’d have more reason to complain. My reasons for buying a Volt aren’t really economical. I just wonder how many other people are like me, and if GM can sell enough Volts until the time it makes economical sense for most everyone.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (9:58 am)Personally, I think the Volt is GM’s key project, and its benefits are far more than PR.
With more stringent upcoming CAFE standards, the Volt will help GM sell more cars like the V8 Camaro. Also, the E-REV technology will not be limited to the Volt, but will make its way into other product lines. We will see soon if GM introduces a new E-FLEX vehicle at the Detroit Auto Show.
If battery technology can progress to the point where a BEV can get 200+ miles AER, and can be charged in 20 minutes or less, then we may migrate to pure electric cars. However, for the near term, E-REV is the future.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:03 am)#38 BillR says “Personally, I think the Volt is GM’s key project, and its benefits are far more than PR.”
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I know that you are sold, and I am sold too, but I have considerable doubt that GM management (and there are layers and layers, not just the top level) is sold, except on the PR value. They are really hard-core big-vehicle ICE people, throughout their entire careers. It is hard to throw that experience away.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:05 am)#35 statik says “*toot-toot* <–inflation train is coming”
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Now that we have learned to listen to your wise advice
please tell us what to do with our diminished investment funds to preserve them as the inflation train goes by. (not joking here — need comments)
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:40 am)#6 THOM Says:Add to that the higher cost of the volt and GM reputation of inferior quality and you have a recipe for failure.
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# 8 Dave G Says:
1) I would never buy a pure BEV. Range anxiety.
2) I wouldn’t buy a plug-in hybrid with only 8-15 miles of electric range. Not worth the hassle of daily plugging/unplugging. Still need frequent trips to the gas station.
3) I would never buy from a company with no reliability track record and no network of dealers throughout the U.S.. Too much risk.
I believe most car buyers will agree on these 3 points. So where does that leave Toyota and BYD?
To be clear, I really wish Toyota would build a plug-in gas/electric with something like a 40-mile range, but they have indicated they will not. I would take any car that fixed the 3 issues above for a reasonable price, but nobody has announced a production vehicle. The Volt is the only game in town right now.
# 6 Thom
I almost always drive Chevy’s and my 98 Cavalier is in the shop less often then my Wife’s 2002 VW. My ‘96 Impala SS with over 90K on it is also doing better then my Wife’s car. So prove your statement about Chevy’s inferior quality.
#8 Dave G.
I agree with your 3 statements.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:42 am)#21 Lon Seidman
Thanks for the link. Interesting and to the point. The comments on the blog were “right on” in relation to the state of the electric car. Thanks, again.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:46 am)#22 Eclectic Dan
The Honda Insight, if it delivers what we keep on hearing, will be a tough competitor for the Volt to overcome. It will also make Toyota respond with a vehicle of the same kind. They will introduce an entry level “Prius” type vehicle to compete with the Insight. Both of these cars will be a large problem for GM.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:47 am)I would put $5000 down on my Volt to get the ‘nth one on the list. I think there will be at least 50,000 of us and that’s a $250 Million in backing. I’ve also been buying GM stock with every dollar I can spare. What I’d really like to see is a long bed 3/4 ton pick-up truck using the Volt drive train beefed up. Maybe even a GMC motor home. By the way, I’ve been a Dodge fan for 30 years. I’m on the 3rd one. I want to drive a Volt for the next ten. My 1991 Dodge Dakota has 203, 891 miles on it and I’m going for 250k and then would like to trade it in on a Chevy truck with a Volt like drive train. Maybe 2012!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:52 am)The Camaro does seem to be very popular. I always called it a poor-man’s Corvette, but the future/retro look is impressive. I wonder if GM has any plans of making an electric Camaro (or Corvette) to go along the lines of Chrysler’s Tesla-esque electric sports car, or the Fisker Karma.
(this is where everyone chimes in with, lets just get the Volt on the road, but its fun to dream).
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:16 am)# 45 K-Dawg
While dreaming an E-Rev SUV please. Need to transport my diving gear
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:20 am)#40 RB – I’m no Statik, but the only thing I can suggest is putting your money into canned goods, at least you’ll have be able to eat. I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but I still find it hard to believe that the government’s solution to the mortgage crisis and bad debts is to crank up the printing press and telling lending companies to go out and lend more money to the people who can’t pay back their current loans. I’ve always been fond of the saying “When you’ve dug yourself into a hole the best thing to do is stop digging”
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:20 am)The Camaro is a “hot” looking car. I don’t see GM messing around with an E-REV drive train for it. I think there are enough muscle car drivers on the market to keep GM satisfied with the Camaro’s sales. I do think they will do an E-REV pickup truck sometime in the 2015 range. It will be a mid-sized or small pickup truck, not a full size one, I suspect. The full sized pickup truck with get the benefit of an improved two-mode hybrid drive train with a larger battery to give it more electric range. IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:28 am)I just checked out some of the Honda Insight details. Its a “neat” car, but probably not for me. Some things that jumped out at me were its Prius looks, the 15″ wheels, and the 0-60 in 12 seconds with a full charge. Those are some of the things i didnt like (oh and no plug
), but I do see lots of people buying these… definately a competitor in the hybrid scene. I’d be a bit worried about 2009 if I was Toyota.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:31 am)I have offered many times to put down a deposit on A Volt, as have many others here.
If GM uses this taxpayer funded lifeline to go back to its old ways, and stall on the Volt and its descendents, even I will wash my hands of them.
“Lead, follow, or get out of the way!”
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:31 am)I am planning to buy a Volt for my wife and myself in 2011 or 2012… probably won’t pre-order them. I am also planning to order a Camaro within the next couple of weeks as my fun weekend car. The new Camaro is one of the coolest looking cars I have ever seen. The Volt concept was just as cool.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:32 am)Comparing current ownership, as the posts above, I’m a reliable Buick owner – until the Volt was announced.
The idea of quiet cabin space along with a reliable car brough me to Buick. The cars however have gone lackluster and haven’t kept pace while the SUV Buick Enclave has. Still, at 14 MPG overall, pass. Time for a stupendously quiet interior and potentially unlimited miles to a single gallon of gas is a marvel.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:33 am)#47 Confused
I agree. Problem is the members of congress know that many of their votes are from the same people who can’t pay for their credit purchases. Congress will continue “purchasing” these votes with yours and my money until a better way of “buying” the votes presents itself. Not going to happen anytime soon. We may see 1979 type inflation before we see the bottom of this well. Right now what we see on the financial front is too murky to make accurate predictions. But my gut feeling is the economy will start picking up as soon as the press and the politicians stop bad mouthing it. People have been listening to the press and the democrats bad mouth the economy for 8 years and now they believe the sky has fallen in on them although it is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. After the new congress is seated and the new president is sworn in there will be a short period (no more than 3 or 4 months) where the bad mouthing and blaming Bush will continue. This is designed to give the Obama administration time to get their feet under them and work out any problems that might crop up during that period. If any problems do crop up, they will be blamed on Bush. Obama will continue to enjoy a “honeymoon” period buoyed by the “blame Bush” talk. But at some time in the future he and the democratic congress have to stop bad mouthing everything and start taking responsibility for their own actions. At that time the economy will suddenly be much stronger than they had earlier thought. Same thing happened to a lessor degree with Bill Clinton in 1993. Bill just messed up with getting involved with gays in the military and health care over-stepping. It did not allow him to take advantage of his honeymoon period the way it was planned. Obama’s team and the democrat strategist are much smarter this time around. Again, IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:39 am)hi RB #40,
“… please tell us what to do with our diminished investment funds to preserve them as the inflation train goes by. ”
_________________________
CD rates have settled around 2% yield. The stock market has been beaten up big time. The latest jobless claims number came in better than expected. The incoming president plans to boost infrastructure construction. The focus of the American worker is to ‘do a better job’ (or be out of a job). Metal prices have dropped.
MEA (metal recycling), and SD (American oil and natural gas exploration). These stocks should at least double in 12 months. I own both of these stocks.
Top analysts are calling for CSCO (communications and IT) and PWR (communications and energy infrastructure) to excel. I don’t own either of these although I agree that they are strong and should rise over time.
MEA $2
SD $6
CSCO $17
PWR $20
Good luck with your decision.
=D~
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:40 am)#40 RB Says:
December 31st, 2008 at 10:05 am
#35 statik says “*toot-toot* <–inflation train is coming”
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Now that we have learned to listen to your wise advice please tell us what to do with our diminished investment funds to preserve them as the inflation train goes by. (not joking here — need comments)
———————–
Buy a bunch of Forever stamps
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/25944080
(j/k)
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:41 am)#50 Noel Park
“Lead, follow, or get out of the way!”
——————
My sentiments exactly. If GM has not learned to change their ways they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. We know where that will lead. They may make a lot of new car and truck sales for their gas guzzler models while letting the gas sipping models languish, but that is certainly a formula for disaster. Once gas prices start their eventual climb back above $3.00 and possibly $4.00 per gallon, GM may as well “fold up their tent” and go home. They would never recover the lost momentum. I, for another, will be watching and will wash my hands of GM if they fall back into their old ways. I have been a GM buyer since the early 1960s. I have departed ways with them over the last decade or so, but am willing to come back if they do build quality vehicles at reasonable prices.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:44 am)Since I have already given GM about 2k in my tax money – I won’t be pre ordering a Volt unless they agree to knock that off the purchase price. Otherwise I’ll buy a car from Toyota, who I haven’t paid already.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:50 am)Jeeez. After the year we’ve all just been through we still have to wait 2 more years before we can realistically buy a Volt (assuming it still gets produced.) Does thinking about this make anyone else a little weary?
Gonna be hard not to break down and get one of those new Camaros since it looks more like what I had hoped the Volt would look like based on the original concept.
If only it were electric.
must….resist…cheap…gas…
want…plug-in….
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:54 am)If anyone has cash just sitting in a savings account at their local bank, you are not making any interest at all. You would be better off buying GM stock and “gambling” that GM will become viable again. If it does become viable, your return would be very good. If it does not, you might not lose much because the cost is so low now. As Dave K pointed out, there are a lot of good potential companies out there to invest in. GM and Ford (better than GM, probably) are two others. Again, IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:56 am)#53 N Riley:
I recently saw an article about “disastrous” retail sales in December. If memory serves, it said that retail sales were off 6-8% from 2007, or 2-4% IF YOU DELETE THE EFFECT OF LOWER CAR AND GAS SALES.
While 2-4%, let alone 6-8%, is clearly not what we want, it is also clearly not falling off of some sort of 1929 style cliff. So I am allowing myself some cautious optimism.
I also agree that, if President-Elect Obama can avoid the Clinton style early miss steps, we may well be in a better place come next December 31. And still here blogging, one sincerely hopes.
NZDavid:
Happy New Year to you, and to all of our friends on the leading side of the Dateline.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:56 am)#40 RB said:
#35 statik says “*toot-toot* <–inflation train is coming”
——————————————————
Now that we have learned to listen to your wise advice please tell us what to do with our diminished investment funds to preserve them as the inflation train goes by. (not joking here — need comments)
=======================================
=======================================
The main thing I think is to not get greedy and look to do something stupid like double up here…you could just end up losing another 50%, lol. Try you best to get into something heavily discounted because of the economy, something with a decent, stable dividend and a strong outlook.
A good start would be to get your assets out of US dollars…or at least some percentage of them (like half). We had a nice run up in the US dollar index during the crisis, but you have to believe with the cost of money already spend and the cost of monster ‘future programs’ there will be a charge away from it…especially if it starts to work. It is shaping up to be lose-lose for the dollar I think.
Euro might be a nice trade-off if you don’t think oil is coming back. If you think it (oil) is rebounding, the Canadian dollar (I have personal bias, as I am up to 70% Cdn now)…at a steady $80-$90 level it probably trades at par with the US dollar.
If you have to stay US based, or you are uncomfortable moving out of it. There are a lot of good companys out there right now that are cheap, and provided the economy stabilizes, should return good numbers.
My first move back into the US market is likely a small position into Eli Lilly (ticker: LLY), trades about $39ish, has a strong EPS ($2.20) that produces even in a down market, they are also sporting a dividend over 5%. Eli also has Byetta working through the FDA…which is a once a week/time release diabetes drug, they are seeking approval for the first half of 09, which would practically guarantee they would beat the 15% earnings increase they have forecasted for ‘09. (They also have a meeting this week on prasugrel…another blockbuster/blood thinner drug if it passes. It would compete against Plavix…the 2nd largest drug in the world).
If you go interenational, there are a lot of things. I’m probably going to move some money back into a Canadian bank if we get through February without a hitch. Canadian banks have little to no subprime exposure or the US lending market in general.
Bank of Montreal $25, p/e of 8, dividend is yielding 9.1%
TD $35, p/e of 9, dividend is yielding 6.9%
RY $29, p/e of 10, dividend is yielding 7.0%
…plus you get to play the dollar on top
Disclaimer: I’m still in nothing right now, I never trust guys who don’t have money in what they talk about, lol.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:05 pm)#58 Bony
If you have the purchasing power to buy a Camaro now and wait for the Volt to be available wide enough (about 2012) that would not be a bad investment. Just think about it. You would get to drive and enjoy that Camaro for the next 4 years, maybe more. That is the logic I used back in October when I purchased a new 2009 Honda Accord EX-L V6. I figured I would be able to purchase a Volt in 2012 or 2013 when enough were available in my area to allow me to buy one. In the mean time, I am really enjoying the Accord. With the way the Camaro looks, I may be wishing I had waited a few more months. All I can say is that you should do today what you want to do and enjoy it while you can. You never know what tomorrow may bring. IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:17 pm)#60 Noel Park
I agree. I hope the Obama administration will not make the kinds of missteps that plagued the Clinton’s. I do believe they are a smarter team politically. I don’t know how smart they will be economically or how well they will govern. I do wish Obama all the luck in the world and I hope he does govern well, although I did not vote for him in November. I do not want to see him savaged like the democrats and the press (aren’t they the one and the same?) did Bush. That type of reporting and bad mouthing was not and will not be good for the country. I know we have pockets of a bad economy throughout the country, but these seem to be the only ones that get any attention. I am trying to be positive in my approach to the new year and the new teams governing the country. I am willing to take a “wait and see” approach. I don’t hold out much hope for democrats in congress. We can pretty well guess their game plan. They have openly stated it many times. My hope is pinned, as well as many of my countrymen, on Obama. He has an opportunity to be a great leader if he does not let congress dictate what happens in his administration. He must lead from the center as much as possible or he will be doomed to failure. IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:31 pm)Happy New Years Everybody!
Only 18 Tag months away from our Volts! Celebrate the new year safely.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:33 pm)There is no economic reason to buy Volt. It makes sense to buy a cheaper fuel efficient hybrid instead. Only well off people trying to reduce cardbon footprint / foriegn oil consumption will buy one. But there are enough of those to buy a few thousand cars that GM will eventually make in the first two years.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:43 pm)Let me echo the sentiments expressed by DonC (#64). Happy New Year to one and all. May you all have a wonderful 2009. I hope to continue seeing the many fine bloggers we have here on this site throughout the coming year. And those of you who only read these post, I am sure you have something of note to say once in a while, at least. Join in and lets get to know you. Hey, we might even like what you have to say.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:49 pm)#65 nataraj
You may very well be correct in your assessment. I think most people will buy what they really want in a new vehicle and will find the justifications to do so. I know that I do, at times. The price of the Volt and its availability will be the initial stumbling block for most people. If GM does not make a mistake and produce a Volt that does not deliver most of what they are advertising and can get the cost down some, they will sell everyone of them they can produce. If oil prices do climb back to the $75 – $95 range most of us expect, the Volt will be a huge success given GM delivering on the promise. If GM does not deliver on the promise of the Volt, nothing can save it or maybe GM.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:53 pm)#22 Eclectic Dan
Agreed, the Honda Insight will absolutely decimate the Volt market. At half the price and 70mpg with Honda quality, I just don’t see anyone picking a GM Volt in that comparision. Not to mention Honda will have about 3 years of market traction by then.
GM is once again a day late and a dollar short to the game.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (12:57 pm)A further comment on my earlier comment #67. I expect OPEC to try to keep the price of oil over $100 per barrel although they have stated they do not want it to be less than $75 per barrel. No one expects OPEC or the speculators to stop inflating the price of crude when it reaches $75. We can expect to see gas and diesel prices over $4.00 per gallon by the time the Volt is being produced, certainly no later than early 2011. But consumers are funny creatures, as we all know. If we continue to “conserve” gas and diesel and can find alternative sources of crude, who knows what may happen to OPEC’s plans. Hopefully we will continue conserving, will find alternate fuels that can compete with gas and diesel, or supplement them, and see the auto companies produce more higher mileage vehicles and more electrics sooner than expected. That certainly would throw the proverbial “monkey wrench” into OPEC’s plans and then it would be a “whole new ballgame”, so to speak. We can only hope.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:04 pm)#68 Squidoo
Whether Eclectic Dan agrees or not, I certainly agree with you. GM is in a tough position. Ford is in a better position because they are much further along with a real hybrid vehicle program as will be soon evidenced by their release of the Fusion hybrid. GM, with their two-mode hybrid and the BAS hybrid systems, are not able to compete with the Honda, Ford or Toyota hybrid models. GM needs to speed up the release of the Volt and Cruze. They need to produce a serial hybrid or some similar drive train to give them higher mileage. Just think what a Chevy Cruze could do with a hybrid system that could be competitive to the Honda Insight. We don’t know what GM plans for the near future with their hybrid drive trains, but I suspect it is too little and much, much too late.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:06 pm)As stated above… If GM is even going to compete with the Honda Fit type of vehicles……it will have to do some serious modifications to the Volt. The 50 (ish) MPG after the initial 40 miles is used up from the battery as per the current “specs” .. is not going to cut it for a lot of people.
The basics on the battery draw has already been figured out by GM.. (at least I hope so)..I am sure with some software configuration… extend the draw area to a 20% – 90% usage ( I believe the current is 30 – 80 %). That would give an extra 20 % + usage without the ICE cycling up.. 20% of 40 Miles would add another 8 miles bringing it closer to 50 MPC…Add a High amperage 12 Volt battery to operate the “wipers, headlights, heater/AC fans, power options, engine water pump and cooling fans”..Didn’t I read in one of the previous posts that the ICE water pump was going to be electrically driven?? You could use the regenerative braking to help recharge both batteries and when the Volt is plugged in… the main battery could top up the 12 Volt one. Or charge the 12 volt up when the ICE is running. This way the Big Battery is not being used for the accessories. It might be redundant but for the $ 100.00 cost of a good battery (providing the software can be written/adjusted cheaply) it would allow for an additonal 5-20 % MPC bringing it closer to 60 MPC. As for a weight issue…. Most people .. myself included… will be carrying some extra weight in the car anyways… be it another passenger, golf clubs… Bulk buy of groceries or whatever.
60 MPC would be Ideal for me.. Then optimize the ICE for a 15 % increase in its milage to bring it up to 60 MPG… and then
you would have a competitor.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:20 pm)65 nataraj Says:
Only well off people trying to reduce cardbon footprint / foriegn oil consumption will buy one.
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Wrong. I’m not well off. I dont mind reducing my C-print, and foreign oil, but that’s not the reason i’m buying a Volt. Thanks for the gernalizations though.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:22 pm)#68 Squidoo
“the Honda Insight will absolutely decimate the Volt market. At half the price and 70mpg with Honda quality, I just don’t see anyone picking a GM Volt in that comparision.”
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I would buy a Volt over an Insight. They are two different products. I cant speak for the rest of the world.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:27 pm)the look of the volt is crap as well as the ugliest car in the world:the horrible toyota prius!!
make them hybrid…make them diesel…make them water powered…but make them beautiful!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:31 pm)People are so hard on GM
The new Chevy Camro is amazing.
GM is taking there time releasing it to put a lot of miles on them for testing.
They want to make sure they are perfect.
They will be too. That way they will be much more reliable than Toyota.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:35 pm)@65 nataraj
Wrong there buddy. I’m a broke trailer park maggot. I will not buy another ICE powered car. The advantage of the volt is it can run without the ICE longer than 20 miles. I commute from my trailer to work in 11 miles and both locations have a 110v outlet outside.
Now back to my Coffeee and RUM…
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:35 pm)nataraj #65
It makes economic sense to me to help avoid oil shocks that push our economy off the cliff like this past year, leaving us to pay the increased health costs for decades to come by burning oil for fuel, and giving commanders in chiefs reasons to send young kids to die for the security of oil rich regions of the world. With a national debt going over a 100k for every man woman and child in the US from these policies, I think the Volt and future vehicles like it may just make a lot of economic sense, not just philosophically but ultimately in my wallet as well. Long term thinking beyond single issues has a risk but so does blindly stumbling over a cliff every once in a while.
RB #36
True, not exactly hilarious but true. Only the orders aren’t from stores but small assembly facilities and instead of walk-in it’s by computer. If the company wasn’t GM it would have a fairly mom and pop outfit feel to it due to the small scale stage that makes up testing and validation before production standards are frozen for manufacturing.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:38 pm)RB#40;
Bill Gross has been buying some perpetual pfd stocks issued by several large global banks. BOA and Citi have p.p.s that are yielding around 10% to 12% with a chance for capital gains as well. The Gross mantra these days is buy anything that the US Treasury pumps money into because they WILL throw good money after bad indefinitely.
For a pure inflation play try US Treasury issued TIPS. Roughly 2% interest plus the principle adjusts upward by an amount equal to the increase in the CPI each year.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:43 pm)#22 – where did you hear the Honda Insight would get 70mpg?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:44 pm)N Riley #69
We can conserve and pick alternates all we want, but when the growth in China and India come back up, all bets are off.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:45 pm)I firmly believe the Volt will come out on time and succeed. However I also fully expect they won’t deliver it to my area in the US until 2012 which means I probably will end up with a Cruze as my next car. My current vehicle is at 5 years so I’m riding payment-free for a while.
If they would promise to have it in my state in 2011 I’d definitely buy one (Volt).
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:53 pm)@JB 79
I’m with you on that one.
Everyone seems to think the tax credit will help. NOPE.
When you buy the car and finance it, guess what, at the end of the year that $7500 is not deducted from your loan. You’re still financing the $7500. Ditto on any California tax credits. The Tax credit is just fluff to get people to “Think” they are getting the car for less.
Nice try Mr Govt Man. I’ll save my $$$ for a fat downpayment because we all know that the monthly payment is what we live by/with. At least I do.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:57 pm)#82 – sorry I edited my post wrong and deleted that. Yes..Tax credit will not help.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (1:58 pm)@JB 83
Sh1t…I though I was going nuts and might have to quit the RUM from my coffee….lol
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:03 pm)#71 Ray
You may have something there. I don’t know if GM would do it, but it certainly can be done like you suggested. There are many battery types available that could serve in the manner you suggested. I just don’t know if GM is thinking along those lines yet. I do know that they better be working hard to increase MPC range if they want to be competitive with the new hybrids that are coming out soon. Plus, as was said, Honda, Ford, Toyota and the other hybrid makers will have almost two years to improve their vehicles. If I had to make a guess there are some butt cheeks tightening at GM about now.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:12 pm)#73 k-dawg
“I would buy a Volt over an Insight. They are two different products. I cant speak for the rest of the world.”
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You and some of us here on this site are not in the same mode as most consumers. Most people looking to buy an economical car look at two things. One, Price and two, MPG. If those are the two primary deciding factors, the Insight will win. When you consider price and MPG together, the Insight wins even bigger. We, on the other hand, are looking for a car to deliver us from oil usage, yes, but also to lower our carbon foot-print. Most consumers know very little to next to nothing about lowering carbon foot-prints. And they care even less than they know. So, yes, the Volt will be a revolutionary vehicle and yes, it will sell well among the “educated” and some what “well heeled” among us. But the Insight will serve the masses because it does not have to jump through hurdles that are more and more harder to reach. Honda, assuming no slip-ups, will have a winner on their hands. A really big winner. IMO.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:14 pm)@N Riley 85 & #71 Ray
Two batteries come to mind Valence 110AH and any one of Thundersky LP Series 10-17V Cells (From 20Ah to 160AH)
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:22 pm)#71 Ray
……….The 50 (ish) MPG after the initial 40 miles is used up from the battery as per the current “specs” .. is not going to cut it for a lot of people………………60 MPC would be Ideal for me
————–
You are one of the 20% that drives over 40 miles per day. The Volt is designed as a commuter car that delivers 40 miles per charge for the 80% of Americans that will satisfy. It seems for every person that wants more mileage, there’s another person that wants a cheaper car with a smaller battery and less miles.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:25 pm)#87 CaptJackSparrow
You may live in a trailer, but your comments on this blog leads me to believe you are not anywhere near “trailer park” dumb. Thanks for your input on this site. I know many fine people, being from Mississippi, that live in trailers. We are not the trailer home capitol of the world, Florida probably can claim that title, but we certainly have our share of them. I hope we can look forward to many more comments from you in the future. Thanks!!!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:30 pm)#88 k-dawg
“It seems for every person that wants more mileage, there’s another person that wants a cheaper car with a smaller battery and less miles.”
————–
There are many others who would take the Volt without the ICE and some added MPC as a commuter car. I drive about 20 miles round trip to and from work. Either version will suit me. If you remove the ICE and all of the complexities it causes in hardware and software, the cost of the Volt would probably be several thousands of dollars less. And less would be better in this case. I like the idea of a fully electric (BEV) car or truck. I am not concerned about range because I intend to have a second vehicle always around that probably could take me where ever the BEV could not.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (2:53 pm)The Volt won’t sell with gas at $1.50.
Is this a conspiracy?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:04 pm)@Mick 91
Yup.
OPEC is scared.
At this point I’d still buy a BEV and/or the Volt before I buy any OPEC powered vehicle. I’m kind of tired of depositing my hard earned $$$ into their fund.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:11 pm)#91 Mick
The Volt won’t sell with gas at $1.50.
Is this a conspiracy?
——————-
I’ll buy one even if gas is the same price as electricity per usable joule.
Everything is a conspiracy..didnt you hear?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:15 pm)I don’t think OPEC is scared of the Volt. They are more concerned with restoring some of the lost revenues by decreasing crude production to force prices to come back up. They don’t seem to realize reduced production even with increased price will not increase revenues significantly enough for them to recover what they think they have “lost” over the past 3 months. I assume they figure that as they cut supply to raise prices we will continue consuming at an ever increasing pace allowing them to slowly increase production so that they are once again making insane profits from their scarce product. It has worked just fine in the past. One thing they did not have working against them in the past was the willingness of the automakers to produce higher and higher mileage vehicles along with electrics. That is the “fly in the soup” they don’t want to see. I would not be surprised to see some of the oil sheiks or big oil purchase some of the battery companies in an effort to cash in at both ends of the spectrum. They certainly have plenty of money to throw at stopping, derailing or joining the electric revolution. Depends which way they want to go. I suspect they want to go with all the alternatives. I would given the cash reserves they have.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:15 pm)Random news on the bailout front:
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Treasury: any fresh auto aid would be weighed on case-by-case basis
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Treasury Department says it will decide on a case-by-case basis whether other companies connected to the struggling automotive industry should be provided emergency aid from the government’s $700 billion bailout pot.
In deciding whether to aid others, the department says it will consider “the importance of the institution to production by, or financing of, the American automotive industry,” and whether a major disruption of the companies’ operations would likely hurt employment and the national economy.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081231/treasury_autos.html
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Sounds like the ‘new’ administration might be thinking about either letting some parts guys go under…or let Chrysler itself go, and they are giving us a little warning.
I would imagine this press release has been issued because one of the ‘players’ has come to the gov’t looking a piece of the pie, saying they will go bankrupt if they don’t get it….and the gov’t has said no.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:18 pm)I wonder how many of those 10k preorders will not be purchased. I am sure some of them have lot their jobs and will not be able to buy them. I am sure the same will happen with the Volt if the economy stays the same or gets worse.
I would like to know where these target areas for the Volt will be. I know I am not in one of them being in a rural area but it would be nice to know where the nearest one will be.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:20 pm)#95 Statik
Have you heard any more about a possible merger between GM and Chrysler? That might be how they are encouraging a merger – by telling Chrysler that funds may not be available for future releases.
How about the battery contract?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:26 pm)#96 J Man
You will always have a number of people to change their minds between signing up for a vehicle and actually taking possession. Probably 10 to 15%. I am sure GM knows what past history has told them. Chevrolet will sell everyone of the Camaros they make the first year. There is a lot of pent up demand for a car like that that is not served by the Mustangs or Dodge Challengers of the world. These are die-hard Chevrolet Camaro type buyers that have been inching to get their hands on a new Camaro. There are a lot more than 10k of them and the price of gasoline will not have much effect on their decisions. It would not mine, if I was still in the market for one. Who knows, I may be in the market if I go take a look at one of them. I suspect they are going to be really HOT.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:37 pm)price, mpg, and readilly available.. honda insight wins over the “mythical Volt”…
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Dec 31st, 2008 (3:47 pm)For the Volt to be successful, GM will have to provide one for anyone that wants one. It will be too easy to go down the street to buy another brand. This is good, I sure hope GM gets it now.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (4:01 pm)Steven #57 “Since I have already given GM about 2k in my tax money – I won’t be pre ordering a Volt unless they agree to knock that off the purchase price. Otherwise I’ll buy a car from Toyota, who I haven’t paid already.”
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Ummm, Yeahhhh – That makes sense…if you live in Tokyo.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (4:25 pm)#97 N Riley said:
Statik, Have you heard any more about a possible merger between GM and Chrysler? That might be how they are encouraging a merger – by telling Chrysler that funds may not be available for future releases.
How about the battery contract?
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Re: GM/Chrysler…who knows about the ‘big 2.8′ now…it is all run by the gov’t.
I’m surprised we haven’t heard anything on the battery contract…GM got their money monday night, I figured we’d have a release straight afterward…a week at max.
/has to be coming real soon I figure
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Dec 31st, 2008 (4:29 pm)RB #39,
“I know that you are sold, and I am sold too, but I have considerable doubt that GM management (and there are layers and layers, not just the top level) is sold, except on the PR value. They are really hard-core big-vehicle ICE people, throughout their entire careers. It is hard to throw that experience away.”
I’m inclined to agree with BillR that GM’s efforts are for real. This is not an EV1 shell game. They have conceived it properly and for sound market reasons (at least they were more sound when it was conceived). I do agree that not all of GM managment or otherwise truely understand and appreciate what they have but I they do understand that they have made mistakes. Perhaps more refelection will give them more clarity on where those mistakes were made and how they can positively market and sell EREV’s. We can always hope and be thankful that Lyle took the initiative to start this site so that we can do a little more than just hope. It’s good to keep some skeptism about GM’s efforts and motives because that motivates us to do more to speak our minds. Afterall, we are a significant number of potential customers that come to GM-Volt.com and even though some may not agree with or understand our mindset, they would be foolish not to keep listening.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (4:37 pm)#61 statik #78 Richard G and others —> Thank you.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (4:43 pm)#103 Koz says “I’m inclined to agree with BillR that GM’s efforts are for real. ”
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Thanks for the interesting comments. I hope you are right. They reflect what I want to be true.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (5:03 pm)I am gone for the rest of the year. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!
See you next year….
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Dec 31st, 2008 (5:42 pm)If your reading this, happy new year Mr. GM CEO!
Here’s hoping you get another $14 million dollar salary, another $36 million dollar jet and $23 Billion more of our tax money in 2009! You deserve it!
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Dec 31st, 2008 (5:58 pm)Hey, this is topical to the thread, sorta.
I was at the gas station again, and low and behold….another Camaro SS. (Not two this time, lol). It reminded me of this thread, so I took a picture on the camera phone just for fun. They are bloody everywhere.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9112/d31camarogj4.jpg
/sorry about the lousy resolution…it is just a cheap koodo phone
(note the reverse image of a GM icon on my passenger side window, proving I do own a GM vehicle…contrary to popular belief, lol)
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Dec 31st, 2008 (6:11 pm)Anyway, after all those comments on this and that, the Camaro is a GROOVY car !
Dates me I suppose, no one uses “groovy” these days.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (6:12 pm)One side note… notice how close the Camaro stayed to the concept car through the design cycle?
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Dec 31st, 2008 (6:47 pm)not that is matters, but was hoping my 97 pontiac would last until the volt, but alas a jackass ran a red-light and t-boned me a block from my apartment (lucky to still be here in one piece). Had to buy a car, looked at everything midsize from ALL manufacturers. bought a malibu.
Wished for a volt, but happy with Malibu, and helping GM get some volt wheels on the road.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:22 pm)#97 N Riley said:
Statik, Have you heard any more about a possible merger between GM and Chrysler? That might be how they are encouraging a merger – by telling Chrysler that funds may not be available for future releases.
How about the battery contract?
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#102 Statiksaid:
I’m surprised we haven’t heard anything on the battery contract…GM got their money monday night, I figured we’d have a release straight afterward…a week at max.
/has to be coming real soon I figure
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Ok, things are starting to make sense now. The fed apparently only ’scheduled’ GM to get the money at the close of business on monday…there was some difficulty closing on time, and they just got it a few minutes ago.
Here is the official ‘thank-you mom and dad’ note GM just released:
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GM Statement on Receiving the First Tranche of the Federal Bridge Loan
GM has received the first tranche of $4B from the Federal Government and we look forward to working with the government on all elements of the loan agreement and our viability plan. We appreciate the Administration extending a financial bridge to GM at this critical time for the U.S. auto industry.
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=51149
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AP has a ditty about it too if you care to read it:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/General-Motors-gets-first-apf-13948003.html
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:31 pm)Lyle
Thank you for seeing us through 2008.
I am convinced that if the Volt is built it will be because of this site.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:33 pm)@2:
Lyle, I have an idea.
GM will obviously be focusing their initial Volt launch in certain areas. How about if you create a poll of which states people on this forum live in? This demographic info might help GM focus their initial launch, and it would be fun for us as well.
Just a thought…
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Already built into the waiting list:
http://gm-volt.com/wait-list-data/
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:37 pm)statik said “I was at the gas station again, and low and behold….another Camaro SS. (Not two this time, lol). It reminded me of this thread, so I took a picture on the camera phone just for fun. They are bloody everywhere.”
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Thanks for the picture. It is an impressive looking car.
Maybe everyone here should just go down to the dealer, buy a Camaro, be happy, and forget the Volt.
/just kidding
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Dec 31st, 2008 (8:45 pm)#77 Jeffhre says “True, not exactly hilarious but true. Only the orders aren’t from stores but small assembly facilities and instead of walk-in it’s by computer. If the company wasn’t GM it would have a fairly mom and pop outfit feel to it due to the small scale stage that makes up testing and validation before production standards are frozen for manufacturing.”
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A fascinating comment; thanks.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:07 pm)Happy New Year 2009!
If you own a Volt, please don’t drink and drive.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt%20new%20year.jpg
=D~
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:15 pm)The pre-orders for the Camaro is simple, STYLE, something GM took away from the Volt. They opted for a yawner in the style department for the Volt and then they will wonder why it didn’t sell like they thought it would. The Volt concept was a bold step and it needed the same Bold Step as the Concept car was, not like the mundane production model.
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Dec 31st, 2008 (10:21 pm)Well Happy New Year all. Lets just hope GM can stumble through 09 better than they did 08 and 07! LOL
Take Care
Arch
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Dec 31st, 2008 (11:19 pm)Interesting numbers…
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt%20state%20list.jpg
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt%20country%20list.jpg
=D~
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Jan 1st, 2009 (12:23 am)This is an absolutely beautiful looking car.
What is really great about is it helps us remain addicted to oil.
Yippy….Not.
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Jan 1st, 2009 (10:40 am)#118 Frank B — On Camaro style and the Volt as a yawner.
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Yes, one wonders why the Volt had its style taken away.
Why couldn’t the Volt have been the electric Camaro?
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Jan 2nd, 2009 (12:25 am)This website needs a “slogan contest”.
The Chevy Corvette and the Chevy Camaro are cars that have a history, so there will always be a base of clients for them.
The VOLT has no history. Not unless you count the ‘Impact’ EV-1. So what GM needs is a marketing campaign that builds excitement about the VOLT that is much more than just “buy me because I’m green” (which will not sell anyone past the original people on this website who are on the waiting list).
We need to come up with a slogan that pumps up the features that will make those unfamiliar with Hybrids to “want one”. Let’s hear about the ‘performance’ of a VOLT; What is the 0-60 time? – How much faster is it than a ‘regular gas-powered car’? – How much roomier, safer, faster, cleaner, fuel efficient, “cooler” is it than an old-fashioned Prius? Why is it BETTER than a Honda?
We need a contest here that can come up with the ‘catch phrase’ that says it all about the VOLT.
I know why I want one. But what reason (emotional reason) can the average person relate to that will make them REALLY want one?
Lyle: What are your thoughts on this?
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Jan 2nd, 2009 (8:20 am)#107 Jamie T
“If your reading this, happy new year Mr. GM CEO!
Here’s hoping you get another $14 million dollar salary, another $36 million dollar jet and $23 Billion more of our tax money in 2009! You deserve it!”
Normally don’t feed the trolls, but felt some comment on the amount of stupidity our post shows…
wags works for a buck now, jets are grounded (and it is not his, but for all GM execs), and the bail out was not 23 bill..
moron
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Jan 3rd, 2009 (9:47 am)hi Gordon 3123,
“can come up with the ‘catch phrase’ that says it all”
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Yes, I agree Gordon. Two months ago I sent an idea to Lyle with a short audio clip. We need to be careful on public disclosure of Volt related ideas as the toyo-trolls and camry-chameleons are surly keeping a close watch.
=D~
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