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GM Does Not Plan to Manufacture its Own Lithium-ion Batteries

December 23rd, 2008 | Posted in: Battery

If the Volt and E-Flex vehicles eventually become widespread and popular, it is imaginable that GM could consider pursuing its own internal manufacturing of advanced batteries. This could conceivably be another source of revenue, significant as well since E-Flex vehicles figure so importantly into GMs future plans. Indeed it is well-known that other car companies such as Toyota, Mitsubishi, and Honda have partnership stakes in battery producing companies.

Despite these seeming advantages, it turns out GM doesn’t plan to get into the battery business. Frank Weber who is GM’s E-Flex vehicle line executive answered my question as follows:

Is GM working on their own internally produced batteries/cell lines?
We have said that we will always buy the cells. We want to deeply understand the cells and cell chemistry, but there is no interest on our side to get into cell production. (To do so) is strategically a mistake, because who knows what will turn out to be the most promising battery chemistry. In the end what you want is a certain flexibility to your choice, because whoever has the most promising chemistry is the one who I will partner with. This is the market. Batteries are real the killer application. If someone has the ultimate formula on how to bring down cost and size and still have the 16 kwh, this individual company can change the market overnight.

Posted by: Lyle

112 Responses to “GM Does Not Plan to Manufacture its Own Lithium-ion Batteries”

Zach Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 am

1st!

http://www.youtube.com/asdfgoogle

Whatever happens to the electric car, just don’t put speakers on the outside of it and make fake engine sounds!! Just hook a belt up to the axel or something so that the faster the wheel turns, the louder the “buzz” from the belt spinning will make.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:23 am

No surprise really.
I do think it would be better for them to do so because they will have more control over the supply. However, they don’t have the expertise and would need to buy a batter company. Since they are broke, now is not a good time.

Edit: Okay I just read the whole article and not just the heading. Frank Weber has a good point. Flexibility is important. Let someone one else fail. Perhaps when the right chemistry is found, then GM can buy into it.

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Dave G Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:26 am

#1 Zach Says: “… just don’t put speakers on the outside of it and make fake engine sounds!!”
————————————————————————————–
This has already been resolved. GM said here that the car will have an external noise maker (presumably speakers) that will warn pedestrians the car is coming.

The good news is that the driver can switch it on and off.

This was added so that when the first Volt hits a kid on a bike, GM won’t get sued.

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Unni Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:33 am

If they feel they are expert in battery technologies, they should fork a small company (ex: GMB ) for battery technologies and participate in the GM contracts for batteries + they should do GM battery testing . So GMB can supply for others and be a world leader in technology.

Any way for new companies , GM is doing testing because GM cant accept below a certain quality level and they are doing testing , yet another area for invest. With the current portfolio, they should be able to attract venture capital funds.

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Jim I Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:39 am

GM can’t be all things. They build cars and trucks. Major components that will change, like batteries, should be left flexible enough so that if there is a “big” breakthrough, they can move on to the new technology quickly, and without a large loss.

JMHO

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:51 am

In the post, Lyle told us one of his questions and Mr. Weber’s answer. One wonders what other questions Lyle had. For example, it would have been natural for Lyle to start with
“What is the current status of the Volt battery contract?”

If the Volt is going to exist, the batteries are going to have to come from somewhere, either internal (now excluded) or external (seemingly no action). At some month and day you get to the time when every day without a contract is another day before Volts can be made and sold. I realize there is a lot of testing and preparatory work that can be done without a formal contract, but no one is going to spend significant money without one, it seems to me.

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Mr. X Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:54 am

>>>>GM said here that the car will have an external noise maker (presumably speakers) that will warn pedestrians the car is coming.

The good news is that the driver can switch it on and off.

This was added so that when the first Volt hits a kid on a bike, GM won’t get sued.<<<<<

Thank you lawyers for another waste of money. Most other cars have a similar device that is activated by pressing a button already, why should the Volt have two?

It’s because of lawyers that we have dozens of warning labels on the visors, windows, inside the doors, in the trunk, on the hood, in the mirror…

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 am

#6 RB

In the post, Lyle told us one of his questions and Mr. Weber’s answer. One wonders what other questions Lyle had. For example, it would have been natural for Lyle to start with
“What is the current status of the Volt battery contract?”

If the Volt is going to exist, the batteries are going to have to come from somewhere, either internal (now excluded) or external (seemingly no action). At some month and day you get to the time when every day without a contract is another day before Volts can be made and sold. I realize there is a lot of testing and preparatory work that can be done without a formal contract, but no one is going to spend significant money without one, it seems to me.
====================================

Something tells me we will hear of the battery contract just shortly after Dec 29th, lol. So we will have a few days of happiness until Jan 5th, when we get December auto sales numbers, that will shine a big spot light on GM and Chrysler’s ‘viability plans’ (when the SAAR drops under 10 million) and we have to start the Washington dance…again…for the 4th time.

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THOM Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:28 am

Good thing.. Gm been having a hard time designing a plastic grill.

It would take them years to develope and manufacture their own (inferior quality) batteries

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Dave B Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:28 am

Before the lawyer bashing begins (which is completely off the subject of batteries), don’t forget that they serve a purpose. I personally wacked a credit union for selling finance arrangements to poor/ uneducated that included “insurance” for which they paid premiums and received nothing. Yes, it was a class action and all victims got their money back. Yes I got paid; I need to eat. So think twice before you believe all of the McDonald’s coffee cases (which did not award millions for only spilling hot coffee). Back to batteries…

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kent beuchert Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:29 am

GM is quite right – this is no time to make a big bet on which technology will succeed. This is a pure crapshoot, something GM needs at this point like a hole in the head.

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Imagine Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:37 am

“It’s because of lawyers that we have dozens of warning labels on the visors, windows, inside the doors, in the trunk, on the hood, in the mirror…”

Actually, it is not we lawyers who are to blame. If you wish to find a scapegoat, perhaps you should take a hard look at jurors who, after all, determine whether damages are paid and if so how much. Or, perhaps at the actions of companies who are found to have manufactured unreasonably dangerous products. It would make sense to blame the lawyers only if you believe everyday people, who compose the juries, are too stupid to be held responsible for their own decisions. Is that what you believe?

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Shawn Marshall Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:46 am

GM is working on batteries through several associations. GM is being coy. They are naturally keeping their cards close to the vest.
The technologies are evolving and GM can’t afford a mistake. Does anyone else see an opportunity here for a worthy use of taxpayer money in support of American car companies? Why cannot the US government see the chance to make a material difference in the development of electric vehicles by supporting US carmakers in Battery research and development and most imortantly PRODUCTION? Production means wealth creation and jobs. Wonder if we need those?

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Mitch Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:48 am

SEE!!! SEE!!! Gm Can learn!!

After spending so much time selling off assets so they can concentrate on the core idea of building CARS & TRUCKS. They (Right smartly) say..no we will not expand into an area that is not our expertise.

They will know, understand, everything they can, but to build would mean money spent, training people, building a plant, R&D..leave it to others and remain flexible.

I LIKE IT!!

GMVOLT!
(Get My Volt On Line Today!)

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Shawn Marshall Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:56 am

Blind people should have radar detectors.

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nuclearboy Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:17 am

I read that last year we dumped 20 Million into battery research at DOE. That will yeild a few research contracts.

I also read that Japan (govt. Not Toyo or Honda) supplied 220 Million to battery research last year.

I wonder who will have the best batteries (i.e. best electric car) in 5 years???

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Mitch Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:29 am

#16 Nuclearboy

Welllll….Seeing as Japan outspent the DOE by a factor of 11…Ummm I am not thinking it will be the USA..

Although I admit, the university research system inthe US can far outdo anything in Japan..So maybe its about even..

I really wish though that they would invest more inthe USA

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D Lo Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:31 am

# 6 RB and Statik,
“What is the current status of the Volt battery contract?”

I think it may hinge on one of two things:
1. The IPO for A123
2. LGChem being a foreign company who may be receiving significant funds from taxpayers via the GM bailout.

Nothing else seems to explain the long delay. Or maybe GM is waiting for the CEO of EESTOR, Santa Claus, to release the UltraCap

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:43 am

#8 statik said of the battery contract “Something tells me we will hear of the battery contract just shortly after Dec 29th, lol”
——————————————————

Your “intuition” has a good track record, so I’ll be tuned on 12/29, watchfully waiting.

==================================

#18 D Lo says the battery contract may hinge on 1. A123 IPO or 2. LGChem being non-US.
———————————————–

I can’t see why an A123 contract would be delayed by the A123 IPO, as it seems to me that GM contact would be something that A123 would want to disclose. The second possibility– LG foreign — seems to me to be plausible. A 3rd possibility is that GM lacks funds for a contract that the other party will accept. But who knows?

Per statik, all will be clear on the 29th

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:47 am

As long as there are union contracts with GM, they should outsource every possible component. The Tier 1 and Tier 2 operations allow integrators to cobble together the latest and greatest technologies – just look at Tesla Motors and Fisker.

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DonC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:51 am

This article suggests that A123 is still in the mix. They would have the better battery technology so that would be great. Weird situation: US company makes battery in China while the Korean company makes batteries in Flint. So which batteries would Congress say have more American content?

http://energytechstocks.com/wp/?p=1994

PS: A linked article also says Tagamet may be pessimistic about the release date of the Volt but we should leave that for a separate thread.

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JEC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:52 am

Sign of the times:

I decided to visit the local Honda showroom yesterday. I walked in, and asked the guy at the front desk if they had any more information regarding pricing/delivery of 2009 Honda Insight. The guy gave me a blank stare, then realized I was asking about a Honda. Well, it turns out that this was now the showroom for Chrysler now! I have been their several times, and talked to the Honda sales guys, but if I would have looked up they did have a huge temporary CHRYSLER sign on front of the building.

The dealership is owned by Wilde, and they own both Honda and Chrysler, and they basically swapped showrooms. The Honda showroom (which used to be Chrysler) is located only a couple hundred yards away.

The old Chrysler showroom and lot are at least 2 – 3 times larger than the old Honda location and located on the more busy road.

The Honda sales guy said they just swapped about 2 months ago.

Also, the new Chrysler showroom was pretty much a ghost town, and the Honda showroom was not teeming with customers, but they did have a few at least.

BTW: The Honda guys had no new info on the availability or pricing of the Insight. He said they expect deliveries sometime in the spring, but my impression was he did not really know for sure.

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Joe Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 am

GM’s response is the right response. At this time, nobody knows which company will end up with the best chemistry and even then, no one knows if another company will prop-up with still a better chemistry.GM investing in battery technology today does not make any sense.

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Steve Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:06 am

This morning on CNBC had an economic expert on the show Mr. Maxwell, he predicted the price of gas in the year 2015 will be, are you ready for this, $300.00 per barrel.
GM, please select your battery, lower the cost of the batteries, and start manufacturing the VOLT ASAP!

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Joe Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 am

Merry Christmas to all!

Lyle, thanks for your Chevy Volt site!!!

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Jaime Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 am

GM down 33% in the last 2 days and market cap now under 2 Billion. If this rate keeps up GM won’t last until January, bailout or not.

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:26 am

#18 D Lo said,

“What is the current status of the Volt battery contract?”

I think it may hinge on one of two things:
1. The IPO for A123
2. LGChem being a foreign company who may be receiving significant funds from taxpayers via the GM bailout.

Nothing else seems to explain the long delay. Or maybe GM is waiting for the CEO of EESTOR, Santa Claus, to release the UltraCap
======================================

In my understanding the only thing explaining the long delay is that there is no way in heck LG Chem is signing anything without ‘upfront’ money and then staggered payments for production development progress from a company in GM’s position on the edge of the knife.

This is not like existing part suppliers that were still delivering product to GM even though they might not get paid…those guys depend on existing business from GM to surivive, they have to keep producing and hope it works out, they are tied at the hip with GM.

LG has no such dependency or existing business models/division that rely on GM, therefore they (and any other new potential suppliers to GM) will have the toughest and firmest cash terms for GM to do business with them.

GM had no money and no timetable to receive any money before last week…hence, no contract. Now GM has money coming in, and LG knows they have money coming in to honor that contract, so it has probably just been sitting on the backburner, ready to go, and only needs a signature and a press release.

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:35 am

#26 Jaime

GM down 33% in the last 2 days and market cap now under 2 Billion. If this rate keeps up GM won’t last until January, bailout or not.
========================================
Actually, if you want GM to surive to make the Volt, you have to hope that the share price gets down around 20 cents.

You are seeing the market come to terms with a 20% equity swap from the US and Canadian bailout packages. (13.4 and 3 billion, repsectively)….then you have the VEBA, debtholders, future bailouts, etc. down the road

I responded to a similar post from you yesturday and napkin back mathed out the share values, if you care to read it:

Comment #121:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/22/release-2010-chevy-equinox-will-get-30-mpg-highway-even-without-a-hybrid-drivetrain/#comments

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 am

Mr X #7
Dave B #10
Imagine #12

Oh Goody. Lawyer bashing. My favorite sport.

Actually lawyers are good and bad, and it is not always the jury’s fault.
Case in point, Good Samaritans lose in Calif. court.
“http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/218144-good-samaritans-lose-in-calif.-court”

I for one, will keep driving or look the other way if someone needs help. I’ll be damned if I try to help someone and then they sue me with their lawyer. My days for helping people are now officially over.
If they die, at least I won’t be sued.
——————

Some companies desperately need to be sued. Think Chinese products. Some of that stuff imported into this country is dangerous or down right deadly. No American company would do such a thing because of the liability lawsuits. These lawsuits are necessary but should be made within reason. Who is to decide what is within reason? I don’t have the answer for that.
But when a company decides to make a dangerous product and considers a certain number deaths to be acceptable, lawyers need to attack with everything they got. The Ford Pinto seems to ring a bell for some reason.
————-

There is plenty of blame to go around. The person who files a frivolous lawsuit, the lawyer that accepts it, and the jury who awards big money for it.

———-
The Volt can not become a product liability issue.

I want my Volt to be very quiet.

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Dave B Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:49 am

Rashiid @ 29, I couldn’t agree more.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 10:58 am

The U.S. government should definitely try to help the scientists, engineers, and manufacturing folks in the automotive battery industry get on the FAST TRACK. They need to catch up to their Asian competitors as quickly as possible. The automotive battery business could be a MAJOR key to prosperity for EVERYONE in America in the next 10-20 years. It’s something that is critical for national defense, energy independence, etc. There are LOTS of very good reasons WHY us taxpayers should support advanced battery R&D and manufacturing in America.

I’m hoping Intel and other high tech companies will join this new consortium and help get a super advanced battery R&D/manufacturing facility built. The manufacturing facility could be used by consortium members to optimize their manufacturing processes in order to drive the cost of the batteries down. Manufacturing processes are just as important as the battery chemistries and all that. Cost is a MAJOR issue with batteries.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122957206516817419.html?mod=special_page_campaign2008_mostpop

There’s some VERY smart people at companies like Intel. They’re used to working at “internet speed” like they say. If anyone can stay on the cutting edge of R&D and get maximum performance and lower costs it’s companies like Intel.

As it always has been … INNOVATION is the key to winning big in the world of business. GM and all it’s suppliers need cutting edge R&D and then efficient rollouts of manufacturing facilities to get the products to market QUICKLY. They’re going to have to get used to being in a more fast paced industry. That’s how it is at companies like Intel.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20081221/OPINION03/812210362/1008/OPINION01

“The U.S. car industry’s birth was predicated on vision, energy, hard work and innovation.”

“The 21st century will rise or fall on the innovation that America and the world can bring to the global marketplace. If the American automobile industry follows the lead of Bill Gates of Microsoft, Steve Jobs of Apple, Fred Smith of FedEx, and, yes, Andy Grove of Intel, it will once again retain its leadership in the manufacturing of cars.

So, Washington and Detroit, get to work. There’s not a moment to lose.”

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Starcast Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 am

Rashiid @ 29
“There is plenty of blame to go around. The person who files a frivolous lawsuit, the lawyer that accepts it, and the jury who awards big money for it.”

That says it all!
The Lawyer is one of the key people at fault. But not the only one at fault.

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Arch Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 am

Batteries are not the only game in town.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/hydraulic-powered-trucks-hit-the-road-5420.html

Take Care
Arch

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BillR Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:31 am

A friend of mine told me once of a science fiction story where a space traveler came to a world where there were no lawyers, no frivolous lawsuits, etc.

The visistor was amazed, and couldn’t understand how this world had managed to eliminate lawyers and lawsuits. How do you do it, he asked in amazement?

Quite simple, he responded, at the conclusion of any lawsuit, after the verdict is rendered, the losing lawyer is executed!

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Lurtz Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:36 am

Toyota to replace its president because of operating losses

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BillR Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 am

#13 Shawn Marshall

Regarding Li-Ion batteries, its looks like the US may be trying to get serious about supplying these in the future.

http://www.kbb.com/kbb/green-cars/articles.aspx?BlogPostId=1331&r=550012230232042800

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 am

#35 Lurtz says “Toyota to replace its president because of operating losses”
—————————————

At least the first half of the sentence is correct.

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noel park Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:58 am

#31 GM Volt Fan:

I could not agree with you more. Thanks for the great link. I heard a bit about this on NPR on the way home last night as well.

The thought of Chinese or Korean batteries in the Volt just depresses me. The idea of US taxpayer bailout money going to fund same is just really too much.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Rashiid @ 29

I cuncurr!
I want it noiseless.

Too many cases in CA where the neglegent parent allows their offspring to run rampant in the streets and gets hit. Driver get sued.
The parents should get sued for neglegence.

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Mr. X Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:03 pm

“It would make sense to blame the lawyers only if you believe everyday people, who compose the juries, are too stupid to be held responsible for their own decisions. Is that what you believe?”

It might make sense to blame juries for some bad decisions but frequently the jury is given evidence from questionable “experts” who simply say what the plaintiffs’ lawyers want and judges who accept them.

I would love it if we had a looser pays system for tort litigation and a requirement that all “class action” cases that involve out of state plaintiffs go to federal courts (I have gotten mail from lawyers in Illinois a couple of times trolling for people to join a lawsuit).

Of course that is all way off topic and I still think that adding anything other than a horn to the Volt is just adding needless costs and complexity.

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DonC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm

#38 noel park says “The thought of Chinese or Korean batteries in the Volt just depresses me.”

Well until very recently NA companies weren’t making hybrids so they didn’t need any batteries. Because they didn’t need batteries the supply chain in NA didn’t develop the expertise to make them. That should change if GM is successful with the E-REV platform.

Assuming this happens, the other issue will be the lower costs of making batteries in Asia. But those costs are really a function of the manipulation of currency prices. The Clinton Administration tolerated this manipulation and the Bush Administration almost encouraged it as a means of keeping the lid on inflation. However, if the US is going to have a manufacturing sector then we are going to have to end the manipulation. In effect, their team gets to play with five players and our team has to use four. Then we blame our players for not winning.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:11 pm

noel park 38

True, and I feel the same.
Lithium Ion batteries have been around for a while but the US did not see it as the “Holy Grail” of batteries so there was no jump to mass produce it. The Chineses in the other hand jumped on it anyway. Now they are probably 75% of Linthium battery sources world wide.
Just think about it. A Valence 12.8V 110AH battery cost approx $770 and a Thundersky 10-17v 100AH is approx $300. Both are Lithiun Iron Phosphate, both can be cycled 2000 times, both still need BMS for using them in series.
Valence has quality though, but is that worth 2X the cost?

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jeffhre Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Shawn Marshall

“Why cannot the US government see the chance to make a material difference in the development of electric vehicles by supporting US carmakers in Battery research”

Unfortunately it’s not easy to get funds from a divided congress and even harder for the government to allocate money to projects that will actually resul in products that win in the marketplace. Example, US gov gave Detroit money for alternative vehicle research and it frightened Japan so badly, it resulted in the Prius. For the US, nada. Many battery research projects funded by the US gov. are currently going forward. Some were mentioned on this site during the infamous “Battery Man” debates. I think I recall that’s what he called himself. So if you Google or wiki battery research, judge for yourself if enough is being done on the research side. Currently battery production is mainly overseas of course.

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 pm

#42 CaptJackSparrow says “Lithium Ion batteries have been around for a while but the US did not see it as the “Holy Grail” of batteries so there was no jump to mass produce it.”
————————————————————

You make a good point, and I agree with it, but consider the other side. There is as of now no established auto-size battery maker, anywhere. We hear rumblings from all over, but as yet no real production lines with products rolling out in production volume.

That means the doors are still wide open. What a potential US-based battery maker needs is a contract from a US-based user. These things are big and heavy as well as still evolving, so a close-by production-user arrangement will have significant advantages to the first strong maker-user combos to link up. That still can be USA, even if not exclusively so.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:29 pm

We are not alone in this bad economic times…

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/22/toyota-in-the-red-wont-meet-u-s-production-levels/

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 12:34 pm

@ RB 44
“There is as of now no established auto-size battery maker, anywhere.”

True.
But that’s because ther are no “Standards” on battery packs. Of course I am assuming you are talking about the “Traction Drive” battery packs.

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mikeinatl. Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:07 pm

It is nice to see GM thinking about staying light on their feet and wanting to take advantage of new and emerging technologies. What a change from the old GM thought processes. It is really a refreshingly different mindset for GM. Hope they are not too late with it.

Makes me wonder what Weber has access to that most of us do not. For example, you’d would think he might have access to better EEStor info than the general population.

To quote him, “If someone has the ultimate formula on how to bring down cost and size and still have the 16 kwh, this individual company can change the market overnight.” That sounds a bit like some of EEStor’s propaganda to me.

Or, of course I could be dreaming here…

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k-dawg Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Check out the #’s on the new Ford Fusion. It actually gets better city mileage vs. highway due to the battery technology etc..

Ford Fusion Hybrid to get 41 mpg city
http://allcarselectric.com/2008/12/its-official-ford-fusion-hybrid-gets-41-mpg-epa/
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081223/AUTO01/812230407

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Guy Incognito Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Did’nt we already know that GM was’nt going to make their own batteries?

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 pm

@k-dawg 48

That’s common on all Hybrids. On Higway you don’t use the batteries. The batteries are used at the most inefficient point of the ICE, city driving. Highway driving is the most efficient part of the ICE.

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ccombs Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Very smart move. Good job GM. That way they can use EEstor products when they come out

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Jay Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:55 pm

GM should invest their money into fostering more efficient electric motors, so leave the battery or fuel cell to someone else and, in time, replace their ICE R&D / production with electric motor.

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JEC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 1:58 pm

#48 k-dawg

Cool.

I have wondered about regen recovery, and now I guess I have an answer on how much energy is recaptured. I would have never guessed you could recover anywhere near 94%, I was thinking 20-25% would be more likely, but I guess I was wrong. This maybe old news to others, but I guess this is the first time I have seen an actual published number on recovery efficiency.

According to the article you linked to:

“The company has also improved its regenerative braking system, which captures energy lost through brake friction and stores it for battery usage. Ford said 94 percent of brake friction energy is recovered in the new model.”

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MarkinWI Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm

The Ford Fusion Hybrid looks solid. I’d like to see what they could do with a mid-size SUV, like the Explorer. There were some comments yesterday about negativity conerning the new Chevy model. I think that the point is that now that GM is being supported by the US government, I’d like to see a coordinated product movement towards a strategic economic goal. By this I don’t mean that DC can or should try to dictate the product form. But we can and should expect that the investment will be used to change a fundamental structural problem with our economy: the need to import oil.

There was also a comment about “no evidence of Japan supporting their auto industry.” I commented over a week ago about the “Four Asian Tiger” model of capitalism. It’s fundamental characteristics are an export-driven economy, with tariffs and other restrictive barriers to discourage imports in particular and domestic consumption in general. In other words, the plan is to sell boat-loads of stuff to wealthier economies. This was supported by heavy government investment in R&D, government financing, and intensive use of domesitc suppliers. See the link below if you want a brief over-view of the topic.

For a concrete example, just google the reports from a few weeks ago that South Korea allows a maximum import of less than 16,000 U.S. cars per year, which is a hard limit, while exporting more than 100,000 cars to the U.S. per year, with no hard limit at all. One-sided free trade is not sustainable. Demand must be allowed to grow, both in the U.S. and in Asia. If no one can afford to buy, then there is no point in making anything. It’s a chicken and egg thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers

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Casey Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Think FLASHLIGHT, keep the batteries universal, competition means lower prices.

If batteries came in different sizes like flashlight batteries but uniform in size to each individual power source, they could be interchangeable to different auto makers

New companies could start up with and new technology would surface, better for all

NO PLUG NO SALE, DBANGCMEMEV, LJGTVWOTR,(my house)=D~~~~(my volt

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blkstne Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm

looks like FORD will have a hit with it’s Fusion(Mazda 6 with a different body) that will do 41mpg or up to 47mph on batteries

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ford-fusion-hybrid-41mpg-and-up-to-47mph-on-batteries/

I wonder how many of these will Ford sell?

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Mitch Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:50 pm

#54 MarkinWI

” One-sided free trade is not sustainable”

EXACTLY

Too many Americans think that becasue there is free trade, we can sell all we want there. but sales are weak becuase the consumer there does not want them..fact is they are not available.

Free trade has to be FAIR trade… The US need to limit imports from China and Korea and others on a balanced basis…We can only 16000, then you can only import 16000…A multiplier based on population would be acceptable. IE China with 10x the population of the USA would only export 1600 for every 16000 imported, but a country with 1/10, could export 160,000. No concensus, the 1:1

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Grason Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Got to hand it to Ford, while GM is messing around with the Volt for years, they are bringing the Fusion to market very quickly.

For fuel economy buyers I just don’t see the Volt being able to compete in this game. The focus is 41 mpg and 27k, and the Honda Insight at 42mpg and 20k. No one will pay 13k-20k more for a Volt when these are on the market. GM its seems has missed the boat again.

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:01 pm

#56 blkstne Says

looks like FORD will have a hit with it’s Fusion(Mazda 6 with a different body) that will do 41mpg or up to 47mph on batteries

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ford-fusion-hybrid-41mpg-and-up-to-47mph-on-batteries/

I wonder how many of these will Ford sell?
===============================

I seen that myself…seems like a significant number, means you can go ‘all electric’ in the city. I’ve been trying to find out what the stated range on that is…with no luck.

Napkin back math time, huzzah!:
1.3 kW battery with 20%ish reserve gives us about 1kW of ‘usable’ energy, so that leads me to believe EV only mode in the city would be between 4-6 miles range. Not great by any stretch, but still not bad considering that is not really what it is build for.

While the ‘auto world’ is all ‘a flutter’ about the MPG, EV capabilities and whatnot…Ford has certainly priced in a premium on it – $27,000 (to start).

They ‘report it’ as only being 3K more than the similar model ($24,000) without the hybrid-tech, but the fact is that today you can get a Fusion (with Employee Pricing Plus) at $15,492 (MSRP $19,760).
**I would link to Ford’s site here for sourcing, but it flags as spam…you’ll have to trust me**

They are not going to ‘Employee Price’ price break the hybrid…and likely the ‘new’ regular Fusions. that they are making this 3K more comparison to, will be discounted heavily after then first couple months…so you are looking at $12,000 premium over current base, and probably $7,000 over a comparable, similarly equipped next gen.

/we still have the sub 20K, higher MPG Insight rolling out in 3-4 months, then the ‘lower priced,’ higher MPG Prius not far behind that

I like it a lot though, and I am glad to see a domestic automaker put a legitimate hybrid contender out there. It is nice to have the option to buy a American product.

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Jeff Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:06 pm

“In the end what you want is a certain flexibility to your choice, because whoever has the most promising chemistry is the one who I will partner with.”

I’m glad to see that someone inside GM realizes that “electrical storage device” tech could potentially change over night. The question…will GM be able to manage this potential hazard?

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N Riley Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm

A wise course of action in my opinion.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:37 pm

Ford Fusion Hybrid…
“Nearly 94 percent energy recovery is achieved ”

OK, that’s the biggest lie I have ever heard. I MIGHT consider it it they said the car was 4 wheel drive electric but guess what, it’s not. 80% of the braking is done on the front wheels. A DC motor is the least efficient generator. So the best they can possibly fudge their numbers is 75%. They also failed to mention what the max inrush current is for the batteries if it were to store the regenerated power in there. My guess is the inrush max current is much less than the energy regenerated which decrements their claimed percentage.

Or…
The energy from regenerative braking is so small that it can capture MOST of it and store it in the batteries.

Going overboard on this huh?

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Unni Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:39 pm

“GM Suspends Volt Engine Plant Construction ” now money is in hand, what happened to Volt Engine Plant construction ? Volt engine will be outsourced from Honda or GM china or Taiwan ?

next post is ” GM does not plan to make generators ” ??

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 3:46 pm

@Unni 63

I didn’t they made the generators anyway. Aren’t they going to OEM this out from someone?

Any ideas on who will be making the generator? Any specs?
I have asked a few times but I have never gotten a reply. I would like to see this 53KW generator.

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DonC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:01 pm

#59 statik says “1.3 kW battery with 20%ish reserve gives us about 1kW of ‘usable’ energy, so that leads me to believe EV only mode in the city would be between 4-6 miles range. Not great by any stretch, but still not bad considering that is not really what it is build for.”

Estimating an electric range for the Fusion hybrid is meaningless. If your foot is the least bit heavy the ICE will kick in long before you reach 47 mph. Plus if you get on a freeway or other road and go over 47 mph the ICE will kick in. You’d only be able to go the 4-6 mile range under limited circumstances.

Bob Lutz has been saying that parallel hybrids are a bad idea because their performance doesn’t make up for their additional cost and complexity. Some people have criticized him for this but he’s basically right. (Not going to touch the climate issue … LOL) Parallel hybrids are just ICE cars with a battery assist. Meh.

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blkstne Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:09 pm

@statik 59

The other thing I like about the Ford Fusion Hybrid is that it’s a mid- size car not a compact. Getting 36-41 mpg and having enough room for a family is REAL nice.

I also like that most of the parts are from Mazda, should be very reliable.

@DonC
Hybrids may be a stop-gap technology but I can buy hybrids now.
GM is taking too long with the Volt and when it does come out it will be too expensive.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm

Ford Fusion 1.3 kW battery

But it doesn’t qualify for the $7500 tax incentive thingy…..lol

They should offer a battery upgrade to a 5KW battery just to get the tax write off.

OK, so I’m cheap.

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Adrian Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Good job GM.

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:30 pm

#65 DonC said,

#59 statik says “1.3 kW battery with 20%ish reserve gives us about 1kW of ‘usable’ energy, so that leads me to believe EV only mode in the city would be between 4-6 miles range. Not great by any stretch, but still not bad considering that is not really what it is build for.”

Estimating an electric range for the Fusion hybrid is meaningless. If your foot is the least bit heavy the ICE will kick in long before you reach 47 mph. Plus if you get on a freeway or other road and go over 47 mph the ICE will kick in. You’d only be able to go the 4-6 mile range under limited circumstances.

Bob Lutz has been saying that parallel hybrids are a bad idea because their performance doesn’t make up for their additional cost and complexity. Some people have criticized him for this but he’s basically right. (Not going to touch the climate issue … LOL) Parallel hybrids are just ICE cars with a battery assist. Meh.

=======================

I realize the EV range is only in a ‘perfect world’ scenario, but whoopie-de-doo if the ICE flips on a couple times in the city.

It is all moot because it is not a plug-in, there is no way to replenish the EV system other than to burn gas, so ‘flip-on’ or not, the power is still coming from the same source—burning gas…I just thought it would be interesting to math it out.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:43 pm

Gotta admit, the new Ford Fusion hybrid sounds pretty impressive. Up to 46 mpg in City driving will get the attention of plenty of people. That’s Prius territory and the Fusion looks a lot better than the Prius to me.

“The Fusion Hybrid is able to achieve high ratings in the city thanks to its fuel efficient 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine, CVT transmission, second generation hybrid system, and a lighter and more powerful battery pack.”

http://www.dailytech.com/Ford+Fusion+Hybrid+EPA+Rated+at+41+MPG+City+36+MPG++Highway/article13772.htm

I bet GM will easily have an answer for cars like the Fusion hybrid before too long. If not, they better. The Volt will be the high end of the “hybrid segment” unless they can get the price down a good bit more.

GM needs to get these CVT transmissions out on the market if they aren’t already doing so. I’m sure GM already has the latest and greatest generation of batteries ready to go along with the high tech control systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission

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N Riley Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:48 pm

I want to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas.

Thanks, Lyle, for all the hard work you have done for us this year. I hope you have a great Christmas and a very Happy New Year. Now, get some rest because we want you to work even harder next year. (Just kidding.)

For those of you who have disagreed with me in my opinions of this site, please take this time off to reconsider your positions and accept mine as being the correct positions. We all know I was right when I stated opinions contrary to other opinions. So, get it right from now on.

Have a good one!!

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Dave G Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm

#63 Unni Says: “GM Suspends Volt Engine Plant Construction ” now money is in hand, what happened to Volt Engine Plant construction ? Volt engine will be outsourced from Honda or GM china or Taiwan ?”
————————————————————————————–
The 1.4L gas engines for the Volt are already being produced by GM’s Opel division in Germany. The first Volt’s coming out in Nov 2010 will use these German manufactured engines. This was always the plan.

The plan is to get the American engine plant producing the same 1.4L engine for the first year Volts that sell in 2011. So they have some month wiggle room on this.

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:00 pm

#71 N Riley

For those of you who have disagreed with me in my opinions of this site, please take this time off to reconsider your positions and accept mine as being the correct positions. We all know I was right when I stated opinions contrary to other opinions. So, get it right from now on.
=============================================

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

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Unni Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 pm

#65 DonC : There are mild and strong hybrids, Gm makes only mild hybrids which the ICE engine is the major thing and electric motor is used only for assistance, In this mostly ICE engine runs on optimal range and electric motor helps to accelerate and other stuff. The start stop is an optimization where trying to put ICE engine at zero rpm at certain times.

Prius on other side is a strong hybrid, Strong electric motor and most times uses electric motor. ICE is used only at times needed.

GM don’t have Strong hybrids ( as i know other than 2 mode one tahoe ), The 2 mode one runs on electric engine if speed is below 30mph. other stuff it do is auto shutoff of cylinders.

GM had CVT long back on 2000 and then they discontinued. Nissan mastered it. Now people follow, I think GM is looking for six speed transmission and i don’t know whether its better than CVT but as of now CVT seems to be winner. GM promise to come out with new “none thought transmission” in volt but i never read more details on it than speculations.

I think these guys can kick up SUV efficiency by EREV as they claim 100 percent more,so the new equinox should be 60mpg and using the electric motor of 2 mode hybrid (tahoe). Just wild guess
and if they get a battery then they can make its Plugin. If they really feel pressure on marketing, let them start with lease and test at same time so media get coverage of new 70+ mpg SUVs.

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Dave G Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Back to the original topic.

GM says they won’t manufacture battery cells, but they haven’t ruled out battery pack integration.

Right now it appears that GM will buy battery packs made by CPI. CPI buys cells from LG Chem. So GM hasn’t ruled out buying cells from LG directly and making their own packs. GM could even buy CPI. They’re a small company. LG is a big company with annual sales that are approaching GM’s.

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Dave G Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:29 pm

#74 Unni Says: “GM promise to come out with new “none thought transmission” in volt but i never read more details on it than speculations.”
————————————————————————————–
Electric motors have lots of torque across a wide range of RPMs, so there’s no need for gears or CVT. The Volt doesn’t have a transmission, at least not in the traditional sense. There’s nothing mechanical to modify.

Lutz’s comment probably refers to different Volt motor firmware tunings that the driver can switch between. Varying the software for the electric motor can significantly change the power/efficiency trade off, much like gears in a transmission. So my take is that Lutz is using the word “transmission” loosely, as in “software transmission”.

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GM Volt Fan Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Unni:

I don’t know all that much about the latest and greatest transmissions. I want electric drive like the Volt … a series hybrid. It’s the closest thing to a practical, AFFORDABLE 100% electric car we’ll see on the market for maybe 8-10 years probably.

However, if GM needs to build parallel hybrids to keep up with the competition from Toyota (and now the Ford Fusion hybrid), then I would hope they’ll be able to match their technologies or hopefully exceed them.

Maybe GM’s 2 mode hybrids for smaller cars and mid size cars like the Saturn Vue will blow away anything from Ford or Toyota. I remember reading that the Saturn Vue 2 mode plug-in might get up to 70 mpg! That would be awesome. Put that technology in their other cars as long as it doesn’t compete TOO much vs. the Volt. I’m a GM fan now because of the Volt. I want GM to succeed with ALL their vehicles.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/23/update-saturn-vue-2-mode-plug-in-hybrid/

Speaking of the CVT transmission from Ford, I wonder if GM is going to go with a 6 speed automatic instead of a CVT instead … like Hyundai is. Hyundai says their 6 speed automatic will give you a 12% improvement in fuel economy.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/12/hyundai-develop.html#more

I hope GM is going to combine the latest and greatest technology in all their hybrids in the next few years …. electrically driven heating and A/C, electric power steering, these new transmission technologies …. all that good stuff. Improvement in gas mileage IS coming soon to a dealership near you … stay tuned.

Of course, the Volt is going to be THE ultimate in hybrid technology when it comes out … up to 150 mpg. ZERO gasoline used if you drive 40 miles or less per day and plug in at night. OPEC and the fatcat oil shieks have got be freaking out a lot these days.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:02 pm

CVT’s have been around for a while. At least since 1989. Remember the Subaru Justy…
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=17019349

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NZDavid Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:14 pm

Well, it’s not like GM has a choice at present anyway, they can’t afford to do battery manufacture.

Still I think its good to keep flexible. As for the overnight claim, in auto terms I think he means two to three years. To change the Volt battery chemistry now, would involve a major redo of the software, inverter, power electronics etc.

Merry Christmas to all.

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kubel Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:24 pm

Manufacture the batteries in the US!!! If I wanted a Chinese EREV, I would buy a Chinese EREV.

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Koz Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Dave G #75

I’m with you. Cell manufacturing didn’t makes sense for GM before and makes less sense now. Even if they were interested in doing it, they wouldn’t be saying so now. Pack manufacturing does make sense and this is where I would expect them to get involved at some point. That can take advantage of the best cell technology available every time they need a new pack designed and have no risk in cell development. Pack integration is another matter. They will know their needs better than the suppliers and investments in prodcution and techonology will carry over even as new cells become available.

Of course, if they don’t make the necessary compromises and pull through the downturn it is all moot.

NPNS! LJGTVWOTR!! Start your own recovery plan, buy domestic!!!

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Koz Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Glad to see real data on the Ford Fusion hybrid coming out. This will be good competition for the Camry Hybrid and the Prius. I know most of those wanting the highest mileage practical vehicle will still choose the Prius, but those factoring in more features will lean toward the Fusion. The Volt will be more competition for all 3 vehicles while forming a class of it’s own. The highest mileage folks will prefer the Volt (or other electric) if it is affordable for them. The rest will weigh all of the pertinent features for their individual needs and choose from among the 3 (and other high mileage options). I hope Ford is planning ramped up production for the Escape Hybrid and planning for strong sales of the Fusion.

Some here are asking GM to offer 2-mode plug-in sedans. I don’t believe this can be done affordable. EREV’s are better for this class of vehicle. Perhaps a “light” 2-mode could compete with the Toyota’s and the Fusion but even then I think GM is at a disadvantage. They may be a able to better position cars with an improved engine like Cruze’s plus an improved BAS system as a more direct competitor.

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 pm

#71 N Riley
======================

May you also have a very Merry Christmas and soon begin a Happy New Year!

Next year I plan to agree with you on everything

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Koz Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:53 pm

Just so everyone can be clear. EV “range” for Fusion or ANY other non-plugable vehicle is 0…zilch…nada, at lease as far as non-vehicle supplied electricity is concerned. It is and will always be such. The energy for every inch of energy will come from onboard power generation, which in the case of every mass produced hybrid available today is from an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). The energy is translated into vehicle motion more efficiently than with conventional ICE cars but they are the still the same in the fact that ALL of the energy ultimately comes from the ICE.

Edit…Sorry, basically a less well written rehash of what I just noticed Statik posted earlier. The point is important though because it speaks to one of the fundamental improvements the Volt will have over current hyrbids.

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RB Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm

#46 CaptJackSparrow responds to the statement
“There is as of now no established auto-size battery maker, anywhere.”
with
“True.But that’s because ther are no “Standards” on battery packs. Of course I am assuming you are talking about the “Traction Drive” battery packs.”
—————————————————————-

I completely agree. So, whoever comes out of the gate quickly, in the USA or outside, has the opportunity to establish that standard, de facto if not formally. Not so different from the initial Microsoft DOS.

—————————————————————-

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:09 pm

SAE is going to try and create the standard on the charge adapter to the vehicle….
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12/23/sae-to-launch-program-to-create-standard-plug-for-evs/

Now we just need the geometry set standard and it will most likely open up a battery market and create jobs.

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MikeFoxFL Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:25 pm

quote: “In the end what you want is a certain flexibility to your choice, because whoever has the most promising chemistry is the one who I will partner with”

And people wonder why battery and solar have advanced so slowly in the last 30 or so years.

-Discovering the most promising battery chemistry – 5 million dollars

-Building state of the art battery plant – 2 billion dollars

-Getting a call from your little brother telling you HIS company is now the discoverer of the “most promising chemestry” – PRICELESS

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DonC Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 7:55 pm

#69 statik says “but whoopie-de-doo if the ICE flips on a couple times in the city.”

Oh my. As a green guy you do know that 99% of all pollution from cars is emitted in the first minute or so, eh? LOL Seriously, keeping the ICE from ever starting is key. Once it’s on it might as well stay on, from a pollution standpoint.

#74 unni

I think the Silverado and Escalade hybrids are also the strong hybrids you’re referencing. I think Malibu may also be getting a strong hybrid system (now it’s the weak variety).

Like you I am most interested in seeing what type of transmission the Volt has. Like Dave G says, it won’t be a multi-gear transmission, but if it’s “secret” and “no one has thought of it” you have to believe it is going to be innovative. The transmission is an intriguing aspect of the Volt which has yet to unfold.

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Len Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 pm

A123 is an US company. Their battery technology is superior at this time. They manufacture in China to get cheap labor just like many US companies. I would think motivating them to begin manufacturing in the US would be the thing to do.

As long as US businesses are paying for healthcare they will be playing with four man teams while their foreign competitors play with five. Health care costs are out of control. My wife has been treated for a spider bite. We got a statement from our insurance company saying that they were not going to pay for a visit to the doctor two weeks ago where she got the wound cleaned and dressed, the bill was for almost two thousand dollars. It was billed as surgery.

Happy Holidays Everyone.

Len

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statik Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:41 pm

#88 DonC said,

#69 statik says “but whoopie-de-doo if the ICE flips on a couple times in the city.”

Oh my. As a green guy you do know that 99% of all pollution from cars is emitted in the first minute or so, eh? LOL Seriously, keeping the ICE from ever starting is key. Once it’s on it might as well stay on, from a pollution standpoint.
=====================================
I thought we were talking cost and complexity, a la Lutz’s statement (and not going to ‘touch the climate issues’ or environment).

But your right, keeping the ICE from ever starting is key…and thats why a all EV drive, like the i-Miev is a superior product…and always will be a superior product in my mind. Cheaper to buy and maintain because it only has one type of propulsion system, and as clean as you can get while still driving a car.

Right now my list goes like this of cars that realistically could be in my driveway by the end of 2011…if I had the choice of anything.

1.) Mitsu i-Miev
2.) Chevy Volt
3.) Toyota Prius Plug-In

Insight is not on list because I already have a deposit down on one, and expect to get it in the spring. (I like to buy things that are real).

Wild Cards:

1.) Chrysler ENVI – minivan or Jeep – if Cerberus doesn’t just crumple the whole company up into a little ball and throw it in the circular file
2.) Fisker Karma – if the market dives by 10% tomorrow and I make a quick 20K on my options I’ll plunk down a deposit
3.) Electric Mini – if it ever leaves the California PR-stuntcasting phase
4.) Tesla WhiteStar/BlueStar – if I try to run down the end of a rainbow, it will probably be there
5.) Zenn EESU – I will also buy a unicorn just before I purchase this vehicle
6.) Aptera – if I wake up one day and find I have no self respect and have also decided to buy all the Buck Rogers series on DVD

Not ever going to buy:

1.) BYD – it is Chinese, end of story
2.) Tesla roadster – 2 seats (goes for the SMART electric and all the rest of the 2 seaters)
3.) all the rest…because I don’t believe them

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Ed M Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:42 pm

Very prudent decision by GM. This way they’ll never be harnessed to the 2nd or 3rd best batteries. I totally agree with this article. This strategy will make companies like LC Chem cutting edge or they’ll lose their contracts with GM.
This should result in quick advancements for the battery development. Hidebound battery companies will fall by the wayside like computer companies do.

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Len Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:06 pm

I believe the Mini is a two seater. There is a battery where the back seats were in the non electric version.

GM will pick the second best battery because it’s cheaper, or they believe A123 can’t produce the quantity or …

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ThombDbhomb Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:28 pm

#71 N Riley

That was a very convincing argument. I have reconsidered your positions and accept them as being the correct positions…Merry Christmas!

Thanks to everyone here; the trolls, the rational and reasonable, the irrational and unreasonable, the tech geeks, the financial geeks, ecos, patriots, thrill seekers, the left, the right, and the center. I’ve learned a lot from you.

Lyle, your blog has created a family. May all your Volt dreams come true.

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Vector256 Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 pm

There is another very good reason GM is leaving battery production to the overseas companies – toxic chemicals. Battery manufacturing is not a clean business. They use some very nasty chemicals in the process, and the waste chemicals are even nastier. Battery production in the US would be a constant nightmare – dealing with EPA regulations on chemical waste disposal.

It’s best to produce them overseas, where expendable people live. People that are desperate, people that will work for one US dollar a day, people that don’t mind toxic chemical poured into holding pits in the ground, where they leak into the groundwater. All so we can be so proud of ourselves for buying an “American” car.

The reality of our choices only comes home to roost when we buy cheap Chinese toys for our dear American children – with lead paint. Or we buy cheap pet food (made in China) for our beloved Fluffy, fortified with deadly chemicals. WE NEED A NEW CLASSIFICATION – 100% MADE IN AMERICA, FROM RAW PRODUCT TO FINAL ASSEMBLY. Too bad no Big 3 vehicle would qualify, including the Volt.

If we keep on poisoning the rest of the world, it would only surprise asleep at the wheel, idiot Americans if someone poisoned their country, be it nuclear, biological, or some other threat. Keep on screwing with the rest of the world, under the sheep’s clothing of “free trade”, America. Karma can be a real b*tch when your on the receiving end.

Merry Christmas everyone !

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Q>Why doesn’t GM make their own batteries right here next to the Great Lakes?

A>Because it’s a very dirty business to be in. The cost of containing the toxic runoff is prohibitive.

Q>Does the Volt need a pedestrian alert sound?

A>Yes. I feel something warm and unoffensive is appropriate.

Something like this…

http://garfwod.250free.com/BillyMays_Volt_alert.mp3

=D~

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Dave G Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 pm

#90 statik ,

I believe most plug-in vehicle buyers will have the following basic requirements:
• Runs on electricity or gasoline (no range anxiety)
• Priced around $30K or less (after tax credits)
• Has enough electric range to eliminate most trips to the gas station
• Has 4 Wheels
• Has a network of dealerships throughout the U.S.

The only car on your list that satisfies the requirements above is the Chevy Volt. I wish there were others.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 pm

#71 N. Riley,

That was brilliant my friend. I have obviously been wrong whenever we have disagreed. (I don’t think we disagree that often)

Be well. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

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john1701a Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:00 am

CVT’s have been around for a while.
__________________________________________

Don’t get the 2 different types mixed up, since they have nothing in common.

CONE & BELT is type that dates way back.

PLANETARY is the type used in FULL hybrids.

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john1701a Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:03 am

Gotta admit, the new Ford Fusion hybrid sounds pretty impressive. Up to 46 mpg in City driving will get the attention of plenty of people. That’s Prius territory…
________________________________________

It’s 41 city, not 46. The new Prius will probably be 52.

I seriously doubt they’ll be thought of as in the same territory.

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:14 am

# 8 Static

Something tells me we will hear of the battery contract just shortly after Dec 29th, lol. So we will have a few days of happiness until Jan 5th, when we get December auto sales numbers, that will shine a big spot light on GM and Chrysler’s ‘viability plans’ (when the SAAR drops under 10 million) and we have to start the Washington dance…again…for the 4th time.
_____________________________________________________
What’s wrong with you man. Lyle is finally moving us back onto Volt stuff and you want to talk bailout. I’m just now moving off of my ulcer meds from that. Please let me live in oblivion for a little longer.

No More Bailout Talk Please

NMBTP

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:24 am

American car companies actually do a fair job at turning out new idea….contrary to contemporary thought. GM & Ford are right at the top. Chrysler, well you’ll have to read a while before you find them.

For the link to work, you’ve got to click on “automotive.” Sorry,

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/patentsurvey2008

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:47 am

#90 Static

“But your right, keeping the ICE from ever starting is key”
_____________________________________________________

If this is the goal, then the RE is really a very very expensive “range anxiety pill.” If your goal is to never use gas, the Volt seems like a strange bandwagon to ride, unless of course you view it as a stepping stone to no gas. You should be looking at EV’s only though if you never want to burn gas.

To me, the Volt is a beautiful compromise, a true paradigm shift. It’s real, tangible, and practical, and will eliminate 75% of our personal oil consumption. IMHO, shooting for 100% now just guarantees a bad idea that isn’t practical.

Lutz said that in very cold weather, the ICE is going to have to start to warm the battery up. Sorry Statik, I think you’re stuck with that until Volt 2.0 (at least.)

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GM Volt Fan Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:51 am

john1701a:

In that Daily Tech article one of Ford’s engineers was able to max out the City mileage at 46 mpg. I should have said “IF you learn how to drive the Fusion hybrid for optimal mileage”. Some regular people will be able to do it with some practice. Still this Fusion hybrid is getting in the ballpark of the Prius at least. Gotta give Ford some credit. They’re doing okay in the hybrid game so far.

“The 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid will also feature instrumentation that Ford dubs the SmartGauge. This display features a central analog speedometer with digital displays to either side that read fuel economy, battery charge, accessory power consumption, battery output, and how much power is being put to the wheels. Fully customizable with regard to what information the driver wants displayed, the SmartGauge will better enable the driver to conserve the vehicle’s energy and achieve optimal fuel-efficiency regardless of conditions. Summaries of previous trips can be recalled, showing average fuel consumption and mileage, and a chart can display past driving trends to aid in getting better mileage.”

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0810_2010_ford_fusion/index.html

Another thing that’s impressive about the Fusion hybrid is that it’s a mid-size sedan … unlike the Prius. More room for the typical American driver with a family. I think it looks better than the Prius. Another advantage there.

In the next few years, I don’t think people will be looking to make a statement about the environment with their car and all that as much. The new hybrids won’t need to stick out too much and say “look at me, I have a hybrid”. They’ll just want the good gas mileage. The newness of hybrids won’t be there quite as much in some parts of America. There will be a lot more of them on the road. The cars need to look fairly cool at least, be fairly spacious inside, have “good enough” performance and deliver the high mileage numbers.

Who knows, in 8-10 years, we might have “ultra-mega battery technology” and we’ll have super sleek, affordable Corvette type cars that get 150 mpg (or 100% electric and NO gasoline) and still go 0-60 in less than 5 seconds. That’s the dream for me … a whole fleet of super efficient, very low emission cars and other vehicles that are NO COMPROMISE from all the kinds of ICE engine vehicles we have now.

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 12:54 am

I was just researching the I-Miev, and ran across an idea that I hadn’t seen before, They’re using energy efficient windows – not sure what that means precisely. But, in warm weather, this reduces the demand on the AC, which I would imagine would have a significant range impact. Maybe something like this’ll be in store for Volt.

Seriously doubt you’d try some double-paned concept, though that would reduce noise too. Probably something simpler like a coating that reflect IR waves but not optical light. Shouldn’t be too high-tech, cost would be the concern, but high-R coatings have been applied to home windows for years. I suspect GM has something in the works for us.

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DonC Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 1:39 am

#102 Cautious Fan says “To me, the Volt is a beautiful compromise, a true paradigm shift. It’s real, tangible, and practical, and will eliminate 75% of our personal oil consumption. IMHO, shooting for 100% now just guarantees a bad idea that isn’t practical.”

That more or less sums it up. An E-REV will reduce fuel consumption by a factor of five and emissions by a factor of six (over conventional ICEs). To go the last 20% at the moment is a bridge too far.

On the other hand, if I could justify the expense, I’d get a Fisker Karma. Same technology just a faster ride with better performance. Better still would be a smaller luxury sedan with E-REV. I’d go for that even if it cost what the Karma did.

One point that many miss is that the total cost of ownership of these cars is going to be very low. There will be some additional maintenance as compared to an EV, but not all that much. Over ten years you’ll be using the engine for maybe 20 or 30 thousand miles, and its built to last five or ten times that long. Some things like belts are age dependent rather than use dependent, but overall these vehicles are going to go obsolete before they fail.

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Koz Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 8:40 am

Donc #105 & Cautious Fan #102

I agree, too, with what both of you say and would like to add that another often missed advantage will be resale value. Just look at the value of Prii this past year went gas went above $3.50/gallon. What do people think gas will cost in 2017 and what will the resale value of an EREV be in that environment vs an ICE car?

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statik Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 10:32 am

#102 Cautious Fan

If this is the goal, then the RE is really a very very expensive “range anxiety pill.” If your goal is to never use gas, the Volt seems like a strange bandwagon to ride, unless of course you view it as a stepping stone to no gas. You should be looking at EV’s only though if you never want to burn gas.

To me, the Volt is a beautiful compromise, a true paradigm shift. It’s real, tangible, and practical, and will eliminate 75% of our personal oil consumption. IMHO, shooting for 100% now just guarantees a bad idea that isn’t practical.

Lutz said that in very cold weather, the ICE is going to have to start to warm the battery up. Sorry Statik, I think you’re stuck with that until Volt 2.0 (at least.)

======================================

I do see it as a stepping stone to gas. If nothing else is out there, then the Volt is a ton better than any of my other choices.

I don’t know I’m on the ‘Volt bandwagon’ anymore than other vehicles. However, the Volt is one of the few at least EV capable cars that has a production commitment, and as you know, I’m a realist, so I like to back the players who show me their intentions through action…and not press releases. Between the i-Miev and the Volt, the Mitsu wins (for me)…although I could still replace my Insight (whenever that gets here) with the Volt.

Regardless if I do not end up getting a Volt and buy some other product, I still support the program and the shift it brings in the way Americans buy cars. I would gladly suggest/promote it to anyone that was in the market. I realize a lot of people are not like me and their first choice would be the Volt (if they can afford it).

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reel$$ Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 11:28 am

#39 Jack Sparrow:

“Too many cases in CA where the neglegent parent allows their offspring to run rampant in the streets and gets hit. Driver get sued.”

Right. IF the kid is jay walking. But if the kid is hit in a crosswalk – sue the driver, take his license and ban him from ever driving again. The only way to control “driver entitlement” is to demonstrate to the public that hitting a pedestrian will cost em dearly. That’s what punitive damages are all about. Punishing big outfits like insurance companies for ducking responsibility for their actions.

They need to learn: there are EXPENSIVE consequences for your actions.

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Zero X Owner Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 11:29 am

Getting wildly back on topic…

Well, duh. GM, just like every other automaker ever, mostly assembles parts it gets from outside suppliers, although it certaintly can produce the parts internally if that makes sense to them. Why should the power packs or energy storage and management systems be any different?

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D'Artagnon Says:
December 24th, 2008 at 11:54 am

Just a wild guess, but I would suspect that GM is probably not the best company in the world at making batteries.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Best regards,

D’Artagnon

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herman Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 4:37 pm

As all big car makers started with making engines then the body of the car.
( or different.. asian korean cars for example ).

But as an engine is the core business of car makers today.
Will the battery be the core business of tomorrow.

To survive they will have to make there own battery’s to relay on there own production. Not being a slave of some battery maker.

This is how BYD pops in.. a battery maker going to make cars.. be aware!

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Dennis Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

I have to agree with Herman. Even though everyone thinks GM should stay out of the battery manufacturing game, IBM thought they should outsource the Operating system. To Microsoft.
The battery is the operating system for the future of the car. It will be more important than the rest of the car by a factor of five.
Of course there are differences. And maybe GM is smart not to jump on yet.
But if they bought into A123 and helped them get up and running with their better technology they would be on the right road.

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