Dec 21

EEStor is Granted a New Patent on the EESU Revealing Extensive Details

 

Cedar Park Texas-based EEStor Inc. is an intriguing though secretive company to those who follow the development of electric cars. Although no known prototypes exist, they claim the ability to make extremely lightweight highly energy dense electric storage units (EESUs) that could revolutionize energy storage in electric vehicles. Indeed they have an exclusivity agreement to build EESU-powered ZENNergy drive electric vehicles with the Canadian company Zenn. Earlier this year it was reported that Zenn would receive production grade prototypes by the end of 2008. I asked Zenn CEO Ian Clifford whether that deadline would be met.

He said “the timeline for the delivery of an EESU is entirely within the purview of EEStor and as such I cannot comment on delivery timelines. I will restate that ZENN remain confident in the launch of an EEStor EESU (electrical energy storage unit) powered cityZENN by the last quarter of 2009.”

In any event,on December 16th EEStor was granted a US patent for their EESU. The patent is a highly information-rich document that give a remarkable insight into these potential devices. EEStor notes “the present invention provides a unique lightweight electric-energy storage unit that has the capability to store ultrahigh amounts of energy”.

The core ingredient is an aluminum-oxide(alumina)-coated barium titanate powder immersed in a polyethylene terephthalate plastic matrix. The EESU is composed of 31,353 of these components arranged in parallel. It is said to have a total capacitance of 30.693 F and can hold 52.220 kWh of energy. The device is said to have a weight of 281.56 pound including the box and all hardware. Unlike lithium-ion cells, the technology is said not to degrade with cycling and thus has a functionally unlimited lifetime.

It is mentioned the device cannot explode when being charge or impacted and is thus safe for vehicles.

The patent describes in explicit and complex detail how these basic ingredients are prepared and combined to create the EESU using screen-printing and layering techniques.

Read Full Patent HERE.

It seems to me this patent is rather elaborate for anything disingenuous, and perhaps they’ve really got a genuine breakthrough after all. Hopefully, we shall soon see. Clifford once told GM-Volt.com he’s met with GM and said “a Volt with a ZENNergy drive is a kind of a sexy product. You never know. It would certainly be something we’d love to explore.”

This entry was posted on Sunday, December 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am and is filed under Battery, Research. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 115


  1. 1
    Jason

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (9:39 am)

    In truth, I’m more inclined to purchase the cityZenn instead of a Volt (if it’s released in US within a year of the Volt). The range is sufficient for the bulk of my driving needs. Also, I consider this battery technology to be more innovative than that of the Chevy Volt. Perhaps, the two technologies can be married together. Imagine a Flex Fuel range entender coupled with a Zennergy drive. NICE!!! Unfortunately, this seems to be more of a “pipe dream” than a viable technology. I can dream though.


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    beachliving

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:00 am)

    When it comes to Zenn I ll believe it when I see it. This company has a bad track record… I ll wait to get a Volt… or if GM can’t get it together, worst case my next vehicle will be an Escape… I just hope my 99 S80 can hang on a few more years..


  3. 3
    scott

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:01 am)

    “It seems to me this patent is rather elaborate for anything disingenuous, and perhaps they’ve really got a genuine breakthrough after all.”

    What’s convenient about a patent is you don’t need to prove that the idea works. You don’t even need a prototype. I’m still skeptical.


  4. 4
    statik

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:04 am)

    Fascinating read that patent, I particularly like the part about….zZzZzZ.

    I confess to now even being close to understanding that. I think I have a basic understanding, but that is it.

    I do understand this statement though, “I will restate that ZENN remain confident in the launch of an EEStor EESU (electrical energy storage unit) powered cityZENN by the last quarter of 2009.”

    That sounds not like production in the last quarter of 2009, that sounds like a ‘one-off’ at best…and another multi-year wait into the future.

    Still, if they want a deposit, I’m willing to throw a few dollars down the rabbit hole and take a chance.

    /I’m officially upgrading them to having a 1 in 50 chance of success, which is a huge bump. Patents don’t mean success, there is a lot of them out there. I still need hard, real-world evidence to be convinced.


  5. 5
    kent beuchert

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:36 am)

    ZENN Motors has said before that they are not primarilly interested in becomng an auto manufacturer. They want to supply the capacitor packs to others , as well as the control and perhaps the motors, all as a package. The effects of this, if EESTor works,
    could be rather gigantic in terms of auto manfacturing. For one thing, a large component of the auto industry is the powertrain, including the transmission. If a state of the art powertrain and all of its associated electrical components were available to anyone, then the powertrain quality differences between really cost effective companes like BYD and either the Japanese, or American or European automakers disappears overnight. One’s thing’s for sure – should EEStor work, Detroit’s chances of surviving, not great at this point, will disappear.


  6. 6
    Steve Martin

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:39 am)

    Is the Volt’s battery still expected to weigh 400 pounds and is 16 kW-h in comparison to the EESU? I hope the EESU is eventually produced and is cheaper than the existing lithium ion batteries.


  7. 7
    Mitch

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:43 am)

    Disingenuous? I doubt it. I’m sure that they’re sincere, and that it works in the lab. That doesn’t mean that it works in a vehicle, though.

    Capacitance is related to surface area, so they get a really large surface area by making something with a very fine structure. But that fine structure would tend to be fragile unless they’ve got some clever way of making it strong. That fragility is especially a problem in a car application, where you’ve got all kinds of vibration and bumpiness to deal with.


  8. 8
    pdt

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:49 am)

    Two things:

    Nothing about cost.

    If it works, this is good: the first claim is so specific it’s very likely that anyone will be able to do this without infringing on the patent. So I’m still very, very skeptical, but happy that if it works anyone will be probably be able to make something like it without patent issues since the patent is so narrow in scope.


  9. 9
    Guy Incognito

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:53 am)

    If EEStor has any working prototypes, could’nt they lend one to the National Institute of Standards and Technology for independent verification?
    I’m mean, if its patented its proprietary, so its not like NIST is going to copy its design, reverse engineer it, and sell it to the Chinese or anything like that.


  10. 10
    jabroni

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:55 am)

    52 kWh of energy is huge, about the same as the Tesla.

    What I still do not understand is how this device works in an electrical vehicle, where the energy demands vary but yet voltage must remain somewhat constant. How does the ultracap device do this? It seems to me that as the energy was depleted in the EESU, that voltages would vary widely.


  11. 11
    mikeinatl.

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:02 am)

    It takes a lot of work and cost a substantial amount of money to obtain a patent.

    This either puts EEStor, Inc. in the realm of serious players or serious scam artists.

    Well, at least they are serious.

    I am sure all who follow the Volt would love to see EEStor batteries become a reality.


  12. 12
    Steve

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:02 am)

    EESTOR’s EESU is a big SCAM! I am an ex ZENN stock holder. Ian Clifford the CEO of ZENN has been BSing us stating EESTOR will deliver an EESU at the end of 2007, than he stated the delivery of the EESU was “imminent” for the year 2008, now he stated “The time line for the delivery of an EESU is entirely within the purview of EEStor”. What does he think, we are stupid…sorry three strikes your out. If the EESTOR’s EESU is going to revolutionize the world, why is EESTOR out of funding? Why is EESTOR selling licenses to bicycle company no one has heard of? Why hasn’t any credible auto manufacture (GM, Chrysler, Ford) signed a license agreement with EESTOR?


  13. 13
    Eric C.

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:20 am)

    Just don’t stick your tongue out at that capacitor. Touching those two terminals together would be quite painful.

    =D~~~

    Okay I’ll let the joke die now… ;)


  14. 14
    Alex Besogonov

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:27 am)

    I’m skeptical.

    50kW*h is HUGE. At 30 Farads of capacity you’ll need to hold about 3500 Volts of potential difference between capacitors’ plates (E=1/2*Q*V, F=Q/V. F=30, E=50*3600*1000 – do the math).

    That’s A LOT given that plates are separated only by several micrometers.

    Also, if you damage a high-capacity charged capacitor – it’ll explode. VIOLENTLY. Because all this stored energy is going to be discharged in a very small amount of time.


  15. 15
    Dave G

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:46 am)

    Electricity is the most flexible form of energy, but storing large amounts of it is a problem. Liquid fuels store way more energy per pound than any electrical storage device (including EEStor), and liquid fuel filling stations exist everywhere today, but current technology for cellulosic ethanol is only capable of replacing 35% of our gasoline usage.
    http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp

    When you combine a 40-mile EV with an ethanol capable range extender, you have a formula that can completely replace fossil fuels now and into the future.

    Some people see a future of all-electric vehicles and fast-charge filling stations everywhere. But if you look at the physics, it’s clear that liquid fuels are best for long distance travel and electricity is the best for shorter trips. So 35 years from now, I still see a small combustion engine in most cars. It probably won’t have pistons, turbines seem more efficient, but I’ll bet that EREVs become dominant in the foreseeable future.

    While I hope that EEStor succeeds, I think 52 kWH is overkill. 20 kWH is more than enough for most trips. An ethanol range extender can take over after that.


  16. 16
    Steve

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:53 am)

    BTW-Any Patent can get approved, check the following:
    http://www.patentlysilly.com/
    Do the examiners actually test each patent to verify it’s claims? After reading some of those patents, I don’t think so.
    When I seen this patent#: US 7147609, I almost fell off my chair :) .
    Did a patent examiner actually test it?


  17. 17
    Hal

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (12:11 pm)

    I don’t think its an intended scam.

    In theory this seems very possible.

    The problem is a engineering materials one — in several respects.

    That is why the patent is so detailed — likely required in order to
    get one.

    There is a basic question of ‘impact’ issues in a car. However many of the other applications mentioned do not have this problem.
    So as a product it may indeed have a good market.

    When damaged the device will ‘explode’ — however, it is possible to current limit within the material so that any discharge could be limited to the damage area. Quick read through didn’t spot much
    about this. Of course such an approach would likely make the device larger

    It is a possible technology that needs detailed investigation.


  18. 18
    Dave K.  =D~

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (12:13 pm)

    interesting

    =D~


  19. 19
    George K

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (12:23 pm)

    #8 pdt
    “Nothing about cost.”

    I agree. It’s possible this thing works as they say “ish”. But the big “nut” is cost.

    I was actually hoping the Volt would use a small ultra capacitor in front of the battery as a buffer for higher energy going in and out, w/o affecting battery life.

    =D~~~~


  20. 20
    Tim

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (12:46 pm)

    John Coleman, the founder of the Weather Channel has been joined by some 30,000 scientists to file a class action suit against Al Gore and the global warming “scam”. The class action suit claims that the “fabricated” crisis is being used as a rallying point for political agendas.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337710,00.html

    Here is a pre-suit news report from July:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ

    This should get interesting.


  21. 21
    Mark

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (12:52 pm)

    Until I see a working prototype from EEstor, I’m considering it a big scam. ZENN should be looking to other companies for the battery..


  22. 22
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (1:15 pm)

    I agree that an elaborate patent description demonstrates the likelyhood of production ready prototypes, but the actual performance of the device is still in question, until actual devices are demonstrated to work.


  23. 23
    Tagamet

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (1:54 pm)

    Anyone not seated, should do so before reading this. All set?
    I’m skeptical about the existence of a functional EEStor. There. I said it. I think they are being disingenuous (read lying). It just doesn’t pass the sniff test.
    One point of information would help a lot though. Do the EEStor people have their bank accounts off shore?
    I’d love to be proven wrong (actually, that happened once, and I didn’t like it).
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS


  24. 24
    Alex Besogonov

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (1:54 pm)

    “When damaged the device will ‘explode’ — however, it is possible to current limit within the material so that any discharge could be limited to the damage area. Quick read through didn’t spot much
    about this. Of course such an approach would likely make the device larger”

    It might possible to engineer capacitor consisting of multiple small insulated cells to limit discharge. But frankly, I don’t see how it can be done for such tremendous energy density. There’ll be a real possibility of chain reaction where damage to one cell will trigger damage of other cells.

    Also, I’ll believe that such capacitors are possible only when I see one in action.


  25. 25
    DonC

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (2:11 pm)

    This is a patent filed years ago, and it’s been much discussed in a number of forums.

    It’s hard to say whether EESTOR has something or not. Technically it’s possible but as a practical matter it seems a stretch. The scientific consensus is that it’s not going to work, and the investment community seems to echo that conclusion – the vast majority of investors have taken a pass and the investments that have been made are modest by any standards. But it sure would be great if it did. If it does work, the yields at first will be very low, so it would not revolutionize transportation immediately in any event (Statik’s point about production).

    The most active discussions about EESTOR are usually found on this blog:

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/


  26. 26
    nataraj

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (2:11 pm)


    #11 It takes a lot of work and cost a substantial amount of money to obtain a patent

    Not really. Extremely large # of patents filed every year prove that (some 180,000 in US alone).

    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_granted_software_patents.png

    http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee2008december17.htm

    Usually patents are made to be as broad as possible – I’m surprised this one is so specific. Very surprised.


  27. 27
    circumspect

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (2:43 pm)

    A refiling of a patent which buys more time for the struggling principles. Lurking behind these type announces are the desired to derail ongoing success of development projects like Volt. The goal is to undermine confidence in Li-Ion energy storage.

    If EESTOR was for real mechanically – they should be able to demonstrate a very small capacitor – e.g. to power a RC airplane. This would demonstrate their process and the underlying theory. Making it scaleable is another huge challenge.

    There is a reason they have no major investors. Not ready for prime access.


  28. 28
    Texas

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (3:02 pm)

    EEScam strikes again! lol. This scam firm keeps getting attention after missing their milestones, coming up with ridiculous excuses and lying their butts off.

    They don’t even have a prototype! Full production? Ha, that’s a good one. Madoff would be proud. ;)


  29. 29
    Lektriktadpole

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (3:05 pm)

    DaveG says in #15:
    “Some people see a future of all-electric vehicles and fast-charge filling stations everywhere. But if you look at the physics, it’s clear that liquid fuels are best for long distance travel and electricity is the best for shorter trips.”

    Not so. From the physics, electricity is best for all travel because it is simply more efficient. Electric drive vehicles cover about 5 times as much distance per unit of energy consumed as does a conventional ICE vehicle. A true series hybrid (not an EREV like the Volt) would about double the ICE efficiency leaving it about 2.5 times worse than pure electric. The only need for liquid fuel is because batteries have too little storage capacity and too long of a recharge time, so far.

    The great dream of the EESTOR is that it would fix this issue and would make pure electric travel over any distance possible. It could store enough energy for about 250 mile trips between charges and could be recharged in a few minutes (from a stationary EESTOR bank at a filling station) with only about 10-20% energy losses in the overall charging process. The stationary bank would be recharged from the grid at a more stately average charge rate.

    The dream is wonderful. But it is still science fiction. They claim to store 5 times as much energy in a given amount of material as current best batteries do. Batteries store energy as ions. In other words, the electrons have been “ripped” off of the molecules to store the energy. Capacitors store energy by way of low to moderate distortion of the shape of the electron cloud around a molecule. This stores a much lower amount of energy per molecule than ionization. If you try to distort a molecules electron cloud to store sufficient energy to equal ionization, the molecule will almost always respond by actually ionizing. When you cause ionization in a capacitor it causes a cascade of subsequent ionization events leading to destructive failure. So I am highly skeptical.

    If there is magic here, it will be that the aluminum encapsulation allows containment of an essentially ionized dielectric inside it while the surrounding PETE matrix will prevent cascading breakdowns. I suspect that this is their reasoning. Will it really work? I doubt it. But the real test is can they build a device that has the energy density claimed. Since the secrecy required during the patent approval process should now be over, they should feel free to demonstrate actual prototypes for the world to see and verify. If they do not do this pretty soon, my skepticism will only increase.


  30. 30
    statik

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (3:11 pm)

    #24 Tag

    Anyone not seated, should do so before reading this. All set?
    I’m skeptical about the existence of a functional EEStor. There. I said it. I think they are being disingenuous (read lying). It just doesn’t pass the sniff test.
    One point of information would help a lot though. Do the EEStor people have their bank accounts off shore?
    I’d love to be proven wrong (actually, that happened once, and I didn’t like it).
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
    ===============================

    Your so negative all the time…stop being a dark cloud.
    (=

    Side note about US Patents: Costs usually run about $7,500, give or take 3-4K. In this case, probably 12-15K because of the costs associated with the patent attorney and the nature of the patent.

    If you get a attorney to do a search for you ahead of time, you pay $750ish. Then you file it with the USPTO…with a couple drawings your looking at $450-$600. Then you have to do the abstract, so your looking at hiring a registered patent attorney…for me registering a particular clothing patent it would be fairly cheap (relatively speaking) about 3K, electrical and integrated patents usually go around 5K and top out around 7K. Once that is done you have to pay a filing fee (about $400 bucks?).

    Then you go into prosecution, where you either breeze through if you did all your work before (around 10-12 months if you are paying for the new ‘accerlated decision’ for a specific patent…but up to 2 years if your patent is far reaching or convoluted)…or you go into endless jumping of hoops because your application is murky or too similar to another (either way your booking more attorney hours…$500-$1,000).

    Finally you get your Notice of Allowance and you head out to the Keg to celebrate…after you pay another $1,000 in ‘Issue Fees’ and dough to your attorney. (Of course you now how to pay maintenance fees over the lifespan of the patent, 20 years..up to about 6K).

    International/WIPO is another story…book another 20-30K

    DonC is right that this was filed years ago. I can tell you that even the simplest patent takes at least a year and a half, and most are in the 2-3 year range. It is in prosecution for at least a year…and another 6 months to get it issued. I assume Lyle is mentioning it now because it finally got through the process…but I don’t know that for sure.


  31. 31
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (3:14 pm)

    A scientist or Electrical Engineer I am not.
    However, I did attempt to read the patent, and got squat out of it.

    I have always stated that EEStors EESU is perpetually around the corner .

    Question: Have we finally rounded the corner?

    I will still need more proof before I believe. For me, the gold test will be a working device blessed by independent scientists.


  32. 32
    KentT

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (3:15 pm)

    I’m skeptical. One, I believe this patent was filed awhile back and is nothing new. Two, no, the patent office does not test any patent though I thought they did require models of some ideas (but they don’t have to work…) But that is neither here nor there because you can Google “Anitgravity” and “Perpetual Motion” and find there are hundreds of patents granted for these, well, patently, impossible devices.

    If EEstor wants to be taken seriously and get funded at a serious level for what they are preposing they need to present a working prototype and give it to an independent 3rd party for verification.
    Otherwise I think it’s a scam.

    And by the way I have seen capacitors, very small ones, explode like small firecrackers so a capacitor holding 50+kwh of energy had better have some sort of safety system in place!


  33. 33
    Tagamet

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:04 pm)

    Thanks Statik,
    I’ll try harder to be more positive. They say owners start to look like their pets, so maybe I’ve been hanging around you too long (G).
    It seems like a lot of the comments on this thread are repeats from 2 years ago – if you substitute the word “VOLT” for “EEStor”. Just an observation…..
    Off to insulate windows (Brrrr)
    Be well,
    Tag
    LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS


  34. 34
    Arch

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:08 pm)

    #32 Kent

    I agree with you on the need for a VERY good safety system on the caps. Many years ago I worked on large AC units. These had large start and run caps on them. In general they last a long time. HOWEVER when one fails it gets exciting very fast. I have seen one
    with a heck of a lot less charge on it than 50kwh blow a 4 inch hole through the sheetmetal case of an AC unit. If you think 50kwh stored in a battery is a danger to first responders wait till you get a load that charge stored in a cap. It takes time for a battery to discharge. With a cap it can unload the whole charge in a split second. Its very much like a bolt of lightning. Lets just hope they know what they are doing.

    Take Care
    Arch


  35. 35
    ThombDbhomb

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:41 pm)

    I plan on buying a car around late 2010/early 2011. I’d love a Volt, but availability and price might change my mind. We’ll see. We’ll also see about EESTOR. I could be convinced to wait for a car with an EESU, if I am convinced that such a device is only a year away. What will it take to convince me? Working units. Presumeably, working units should be around late 2010/early 2011.


  36. 36
    Paul

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:44 pm)

    “”So 35 years from now, I still see a small combustion engine in most cars. It probably won’t have pistons, turbines seem more efficient”"

    Neither ICE or gas turbines are energy efficient at all! It’s true that liquid fossil fuels contain a much higher energy density but this becomes almost totally irrelevant when the device used to convert that energy into work is at best 40% energy efficient at the flywheel (Diesel). A petrol ICE is at best 30% efficient at the flywheel and a gas turbine is about the same.

    Over-all a petrol powered ICE vehicle is 15% energy efficient at the rear wheels due to additional transmission losses between the flywheel and wheels which is about as good as an incandescent light bulb (around 5%). Most of the energy contained in the fuel is converted into waist heat. When you consider the mega-gallons of global oil consumption it’s seems truly ridiculous that 1) almost no-one is even aware of this inefficiency 2) Only 15% of global oil consumption does any useful work.

    Gas turbines have a better power to weight ratio, are very reliable and CAN be made to be more energy efficient than an ICE but only with a double of triple extraction processes that usually involves making use of the turbines waist heat from their high temperature exhaust for space heating or to power a second lower temperature power generation cycle. I don’t see any of these systems being practical for automobiles.

    Internal combustion just can’t compete with electric for energy efficiency and an ICE simply can’t do regeneration.


  37. 37
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:50 pm)

    Many of you call that system “science fiction”, but how many devices from science fiction have become an everyday fact?

    I hope it works. Just imagine the possibilities.


  38. 38
    dwwbkw

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (4:56 pm)

    #10 jabroni:

    You said:

    What I still do not understand is how this device works in an electrical vehicle, where the energy demands vary but yet voltage must remain somewhat constant. How does the ultracap device do this? It seems to me that as the energy was depleted in the EESU, that voltages would vary widely.
    ———————————————————————————

    To get a constant output voltage, you simply use a DC – DC converter with a voltage-regulated output. The converter frequency and/or duty cycle is controlled to maintain a constant output voltage, which is then fed to the DC to AC converter which drives the AC propulsion motor. A ten-to-one control range probably can be obtained, providing you with 90 % of the total capacitor’s energy storage capacity. The DC output voltage controller could also be used to control the AC voltage out of the DC – AC converter, although this would likely be controlled by a separate control loop.


  39. 39
    Joe

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:05 pm)

    My question is: why didn’t they go with a major auto industry instead of Zenn?


  40. 40
    Alex Besogonov

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:25 pm)

    Easier to cheat Zenn than a big automaker?


  41. 41
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:25 pm)

    #37 CorvetteGuy


    Many of you call that system “science fiction”, but how many devices from science fiction have become an everyday fact?

    I hope it works. Just imagine the possibilities.

    —————————————-
    Corvettegy, most of us want it to work too. EEStor has been doing a lot of talking without backing up any of it. They have nothing to show independent third party scientists. That’s the problem. I for one am very doubtful, but like you, I hope I am wrong because the possibilities are huge.


  42. 42
    Joe

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:26 pm)

    A capacitor can be charged a lot faster than a battery. So, I believe it could be used, alongside of the lithium battery, in storing current produced from regenerative braking system and then use that electrical power on specific vehicle demands. This demand could be used frequently to open up the window of efficient charging.


  43. 43
    Herman

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:27 pm)

    @ paul.

    My dad worked at a company who made gas generators. There design was from 1994.. it was a american company here in holland. But they had a lack of innovation. That’s why they stop making those engines.. Other company’s from other country’s made better ones and cheaper.

    Anyway.. they had gas generators with efficiency of 55% Gas to electric conversion. At a fixed RPM.

    If you have a diesel generator at a fixed RPM.. it has a higher efficiency. A normal car refs from 1000 to 8000 RPM. This is bad for efficiency. But if you convert this energy to electricity to a small battery pack. You could get high efficiency with diesel.

    Because the VOLT is a series hybrid. You could generate to fill the battery.
    The fixed RPM of the engine would be anoying while driving. then they should attempt to make that sound as quiet as can be.

    To be ontopic:

    I heard alot about the EEstor on the internet.. But as written by a few persons here.. I think capacitors will always be a short time buffer item. Never a real battery. To dangerous and not possible.

    I don’t know what EEstor is doing.. but we shouldn’t give them this kind of attention. Just leave them as they are.. if they are serious about there products we will hear it in scientific magazines etc. soon.


  44. 44
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:27 pm)

    Joe #39 and Alex #40.

    It doesn’t make any sense to me either.
    This is another reason to doubt them, in my opinion.


  45. 45
    Van

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (5:28 pm)

    Answer, EEStor is vaporware


  46. 46
    ccombs

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (7:44 pm)

    I’m a mechanical- not electrical, mind you- engineer, but I read the patent and I have to say that EEStor *in theory* looks like it *could* work. I thought it was a complete scam before, but now I’m not so sure. Theory means very little in engineering, however. Until you show me a working, commerically viable product that doesn’t cost a bazillion dollars or have some other catch, I will remain skeptical. I really hope this isn’t one of those “I can make a rust-proof car…if I make it entirely out of gold” things.

    #36 … sadly, I doubt even 15% of petroleum extracted from the earth is converted into useful energy. Transportationof fuel, related infrastructure, and all sorts of things exist only to service a petroleum-based economy and add to the incredible energy inefficiency.


  47. 47
    Dr.Science #11 on the list

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (7:49 pm)

    I am a scientist and engineer with a number of patents on electrical devices and circuits and have reviewed the patent. The intellectual property protected is not on a capacitor per se but a method of manufactureing a capacitor useing specified materials and compounds. With out a workng model to analize and test we can not tell if it will work or not. Past lab expieriences with high voltage, high amperage capacitors in a parallel circuit were fraught with arcs caused by leakage of the dielectric material. Not just small arcs but big nasty crackling miniature lightning bolts, we wer able to contain them useing ceramic insulators into the primary windings of a transformer. Yes, it might work.


  48. 48
    Unni

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (8:07 pm)

    In general, if you want to be next era billionaire ( next era is called resources era ), One way a high capacity storage.

    Lot people work on it and some may make success,. partially success etc but an automotive company cant choose one of them for a mass product. If its a limited product with a premium, they can experiment.

    I don’t know how many may appreciate if your EREV didn’t start because of battery dead. Some times experiments works too, if works you can be a winner. I don’t think GM cant take that risk unless volt goes in cadi nameplate.

    Patent- if you can write a fairytale in a patent template, they will give you patent for a product. Read some patents and you will understand how to describe simple things complexly


  49. 49
    Spin

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (8:48 pm)

    I have spent the day reading the patent and I have to say that it looks like an interesting theory. Will it work? It looks to me like it is possible but not probable. The only way we will know for sure is if and when they submit a prototype for testing. The fact that they have missed their targets in the past does not concern me. When developing new technology problems arise and schedules slip. That being said, for EEStor to have any credibility going forward they need to demonstrate a device soon with the claimed energy density.


  50. 50
    JEC

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (9:59 pm)

    Reading that patent almost put me out.

    I am no expert in chemistry, but do understand the basic electrical premise of the patent.

    It appears feasible, but to maintain that razor thin dielectric across such a large area would be my biggest concern. You CANNOT have any breakdown, otherwise…BOOM.

    I found the statement, about it being safe since it was made of material that do not explode, which is true, but the material is not the issue, the electrical energy is. This thing will electrically explode, by design. The capacitor can provide nearly instantaneous energy, which is good, except when you have a fault. I have witnessed “small” capacitors in the 10,000 uF, 500 volt range let loose, and it is not pretty.

    Maybe they can design the capacitor to have some level of inherent protection, such as some type of internal fusing that prevents catastrophic failure.

    BUT, if they can actually produce these in any sort of volume, their are many applications where you could accept the explosive nature of the EESTOR, such as electrical grid storeage related (you bury this bad boy in a bunker!)

    I am still very skeptical, but hey if it works that would be some thing worth writing home about.


  51. 51
    koz

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:01 pm)

    Tagamet,

    You do realize you just confined Satik to whatever room he was in when he read your post. You dog :)


  52. 52
    Ed M

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (10:53 pm)

    Look guys I know this is hard to believe, but I invented a time machine and went a few years into the future, EEStor is not BSing I’m happy to report.
    I can be reached at the Sunny Meadows home, just outside of Springfield if you need further information.(lol)


  53. 53
    Texas

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:02 pm)

    #33 Wrote:

    “They say owners start to look like their pets, so maybe I’ve been hanging around you too long”

    ** pulls out notebook and writes this down **


  54. 54
    Texas

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:07 pm)

    Did I read that patent correctly?

    Filed: Aug. 13, 2004

    That’s not two years ago! That’s over four years ago!!!!!


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    Ed M

     

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    Dec 21st, 2008 (11:14 pm)

    #37 CorvetteGuy
    Many of you call that system “science fiction”, but how many devices from science fiction have become an everyday fact?

    Maybe you could enlighten us on some. If converting science fiction notions to the real thing were that easy, we’d be taking flying saucers to work everyday. Like PT Barnum once said, there’s a sucker born every minute or nowadays it’s about every second. Someday super capacitors that work like batteries may exist but not for a few more decades.

    Don’t mean to dampen your enthusiasm, its Healthy to be hopeful.


  56. 56
    Dave K.

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (12:15 am)

    The common flip phone sure looks a lot like Captain Kirk’s communicator. I am surprised cell manufactures haven’t made a cell phone / stun gun combo by now.

    “Mr. Scott, set your cell phone to stun. We don’t want this part of the galaxy breaking out into another war”.

    “Aye Captain (begrudgingly), I’ll turn it down to stun”

    =D~


  57. 57
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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (12:38 am)

  58. 58
    Lurtz

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (1:32 am)

    I’ve been wondering why such different standards are applied to financial executives and Detroit’s auto workers. Consider:

    * The financial executives helped cause the present meltdown. Auto workers did not.

    * The financial executives run their firms, and are responsible for their troubles. Auto workers and their union, by contrast, just got themselves a good deal by bargaining with management. That’s their prerogative. I don’t see that they’re any more to blame for the problems of the Big Three than people who accept unduly large cash back bonuses on their new cars would be — and GM is giving away more in cash-back bonuses than they can afford.

    * Financial executives have just destroyed a tremendous amount of value and ruined the global economy. Auto workers have been busy creating useful things.

    * In exchange for destroying value, financial executives get paid a whole lot more than auto workers. Orders of magnitude more. They even get multi-million dollar performance bonuses when their firms lose money! And their benefits are a lot more cushy: not just good health care but private jets and chauffeurs!

    * Punishing financial executives helps reduce moral hazard. Punishing auto workers does not.

    Honestly: what sense does it make to stick it to a bunch of auto workers while letting the financial executives off scot-free? How can Richard Shelby get all upset about the fact that some blue-collar workers have, gasp, health care, and not about the fact that financial executives, on whom we have spent a lot more money than the Big Three ever asked for, get financial planners and chauffeurs? Just imagine the furious oratory we might have heard had the UAW succeeded in negotiating benefits like the ones people get at Goldman Sachs. (I’ll bet chauffeurs would help auto workers concentrate more on their jobs…)

    For the reasons given above, I think that we should stick it to the bankers and hedge fund managers, and not to the UAW. However, I’d be happy with a single standard uniformly applied.

    “In 1950, the average pay of an S&P 500 CEO was less than 30 times that of an average U.S. worker; by 1980, prior to the “Reagan Revolution, the average pay of the S&P 500 CEO was approximately 50 times higher than that of an average U.S worker. But by 2007, the average pay of an S&P 500 CEO had soared to more than 350 times as much as that of an average U.S. worker.

    This is both immoral and unsustainable in a democracy. By way of comparison, in Europe, an average CEO only makes 22 times as much as an average worker, and in Japan, only 17 times as much.

    If America wants to be competitive again, we need to reduce CEO pay to a level comparable to CEO pay in Europe and Japan. I know exactly how to accomplish this feat. The UAW should agree to immediately lower U.S. union worker pay to a level equal to the level paid by their non-union, non-American competitors. In return, auto CEO’s must agree to permanently lower their compensation to only 20 times that of an average union worker.

    Once this has been accomplished, Congress must move to apply the same pay standards to AIG and all of the financial institutions that took one penny of taxpayer money from the TARP fund.”

    Amen. Only one addition: this has to include not just salary but benefits, and benefits should be equal to (not greater than) those enjoyed by the average American worker. Until the average worker’s employer pays for his or her home security system or chauffeur, those multimillionaires on Wall Street can pay for those things out of their salaries. Hilzoy


  59. 59
    jeff j

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (1:34 am)

    I always thought of the Volt as the beginning in a new revolution which will see rapid changes in technology on many fronts one of them is Battery tech, I assumed that Battery technology would follow modest advancement much like we have seen over the last 15 years but water shed events do happen just not very often, So like our more technically minded posters have pointed out this EESTOR device is still possible but very unlikely . It would advance Battery technology 50 years in to the future and possible spin-offs would be mind boggling !!! I’m not going to hold my breath but it is fun to dream about the possibilities . Happy holidays Y’all


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    stopcrazypp

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (1:42 am)

    #15 Dave G
    While I still don’t believe EEStor, if this thing works, it’ll effectively eliminate the need for a long range solution like the EREV. Since this thing persumably has an infinite life cycle, it can make reliable rapid charge stations which charge from the grid slowly and discharge very quickly into a car (much quicker than the current 10-20 minute rapid charge for 80-120 miles of range). Also at only 281.56lbs for the same energy as a Tesla Roadster with a 1000lb battery pack, there is no need for an ICE since the energy density is a lot better. You’ll be having around 200 miles of range for that weight, rather than 40 like the Volt (& the Volt’s battery is even heavier). Instead of adding an generator, replace that weight instead with another pack and you have 400 miles of range and save yourself the complexity and maintence of an ICE. If what they say is true, you can have an EV which basically will last forever (they didn’t mention calendar life, so that might be an issue). If rapid charge stations start getting built, it’s concievable it might eliminate the need for EREVs.
    Of course I’m a skeptic, so that’s just some forward looking speculation. Just sounds too good to be true.


  61. 61
    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (3:34 am)

    Let’s see;
    Hypothetically now- I have my Volt. “If” EEstore is legit, then when I replace the Li-ion bat with an ultracap my unrecharged range should triple or quadruple and the four stroke extender could be ditched for the original turbo geni for a full charge instead of maintaining a 30% SOC. The 0-60 could be cut from 9 sec. to 5 sec. The only thing I’d really have to worry about is the simple mechanical maintainace of the ICE, brakes, tires, alignments, and the few electrical parts that’ll eventually wear out. The cost for purchase would go down due to the originall claim of the cells being potentially cheeper than current batteries and (barring an unforseen accident/explosion:-( )never needing to replace them,,, hmm,, If they ain’t legit me and bubba are gonna be mighty unhappy!

    A number of the tech envisioned in the original Star Trek has been made real as well as some from The Next Generation. Hospital bed monitoring hardware from the Enterprise’s sick bay, as previously mentioned cell phones from communicators , your blackberries; pda’s & etc. from the Next Generation’s Padd’s. There’s quite a few sci-fi inspired stuff out there that we’ve just gotten used to, there’s some that’s just around the corner(hey, military, I want my phaser uh laser that my tax money has aready paid for! We know you got ‘em with the black buget, come on; fes up. I’ve got roaches & possums to zap!), and there’s stuff that’s along ways off. I’m like some of you, I’ll belive it when I see it. Until then I’ll be cautiously hopefull that it’s real and can get us off foreign oil and bring our troops home.

    Oh, GM;
    By the way I’ll take mind with medal hydride fuel cells. I can order off the net or build my own hydrogen generator(my contribution to kicking oil cartels’ croch ;-) .


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    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (3:46 am)

    Mind—mine. Sorry folks I tried thinking while typing, I’ll sign up for rehab now.

    I still want my phaser uh laser pistol, Mr. Gates.


  63. 63
    tim-the-dreamer

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (4:19 am)

    Medal–metal, sorry again folks, I’m super bored right now.

    Here’s a dumb idea, how about Mr. President takes away the tax burden of those of us below the $50G’s mark and place it on the rich turkeys of the golden parachutes who can afford it and we’ll fix the economy by bailling ourselves out of debt and buying so many erev’s that the big 3 will be b***hing about not having enough availible to meet demand instead of needing a loan to survive. Hell, there’s so many of us that even the rich will make money, after they decapitate the uaw, skin wallstreet, and castrate certain so called congresional leaders( we know who ;-) ). Then the nation will lead again.

    YEA RIGHT! I’m gonna get a stiff drink, anyone thirsty?


  64. [...] EEStor is Granted a New Patent on the EESU Revealing Extensive Details (none) Visit the original post at: Transportation News Bookmark It Hide Sites [...]


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    maharguitar

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (7:40 am)

    There are a few things about EEStore that I find a bit odd. One is that people are calling is a scam. But, they haven’t really tried to market it. The have few investors and they don’t seem to be trying very hard to get any more. They have some VC funding and some contracts that are based on real milestones. I have heard (warning: 9th hand information!) that plenty of investors have tried to invest in them but EEStore won’t give up any of their equity. All they’ll do is sell “exclusives”. Most scams will readily sell equity since the equity is the thing that has no value.

    Second, they are very secretive. They don’t talk to the press or anybody else and that isn’t just about the technical details. They don’t return phone calls for any kind of information.

    I do have an idea about the lack of a prototype that I think makes some sense, albeit it is a bit of a stretch. The guy who runs EEStore is a former disk drive designer. That means that he knows about putting extremely thin coatings on things and those coating have to have very high levels of purity with almost no defects. But, you can’t just go into your workshop and make a 100gig disk drive. If you could, we would have had 100gig disk drives 40 years ago. You actually have to make a disk drive factory before you can get your first prototype. One of the few things that we do know about EEStore is that they are using what little investment that they have to make a manufacturing plant. I.E. build the factory before you build the first unit. So, there does seem to be at least some logic behind their lack of a prototype. Although they wouldn’t get any of my money with out showing me something.

    Another thing about the device that people talk about is safety. If the failure mode of the cells is to fail “open” then a single cell failure would distribute the current to the other cells. If you charge the whole device to 80%, than you can deal with a 20% failure of the cells without having to dissipate the energy. Above that level, however, than you could get a cascade where the energy in the failed cells cause the other cells to exceed their limits and fail. Then the energy will have to go somewhere and that would be very bad.


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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (8:25 am)

    #65 maharguitar
    “Second, they are very secretive. They don’t talk to the press or anybody else and that isn’t just about the technical details. They don’t return phone calls for any kind of information.”

    Oh yes they do talk to “anyone else”. Dick Weir the CEO does talk to a blogger with a bag over his head which is a front to promote the EESU for EESTOR.


  67. 67
    EEStor Supercap « The Universe Exists for My Amusement

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (9:46 am)

    [...] 2008 Posted by Joey in Technology. Tags: EEStor, Supercapacitor trackback Via Slashdot, we learn EEStor is Granted a New Patent on the EESU Revealing Extensive Details. In any event,on December 16th EEStor was granted a US patent for their EESU. The patent is a [...]


  68. 68
    samwyse

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (10:20 am)

    I’m intrigued that the illustration (presumably from the patent application) states that there are 31,351 capacitors, while the text of the article states that there are 31,353. Which is it? The first number is prime, which means that there isn’t a simple rectangular grid containing all of the capacitors (although a staggered arrangement, such as the stars in the current US flag might be possible). 31,353, on the other hand, is 3*7*1493, however it also doesn’t easily form a rectangular array. I have to wonder how either of these numbers came to be involved in the design of this a device.


  69. 69
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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (10:28 am)

    To Dave G

    Ethanol is a pointless sidetrack and will cause more problems than solutions. It is no better than fossils as it still releases carbon dioxide when combusted and on top of that it often causes disruption in food markets.

    If you want a liquid fuel consider hydrogen pumped through a fuel cell.

    Our new hybrid will be electric/hydrogen fuel cell.

    Kevin


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    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (10:57 am)

    EEStor = Scam.
    They have never released anything as a product prototype. Just ask Zenn.

    AFS Trinity = Skeptical
    AFS Trinity has a good “Concept” of parallel performance of UltraCaps and Lithium Ion to soften the blow on hard accelleration. I think it will work but they have also not brought anything to light. They even failed to show in the recent big auto shows.


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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (11:26 am)

    For all of our sake I hope they do have something great. But, like most here, I will believe it when I see it. It does seem it is always at the end of next year before we see proof in the form of a vehicle. I say it is time to produce something or get off the pot.


  72. 72
    Remi-QC

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (11:30 am)

    Parameters of each technology to store 52.2 kWh of Electrical Energy

    Ceramic EESU . . NiMH . . . . .LA(Gel) . . . . Lithium-ion . . Description
    300 . . . . . . . . .1716 . . . . . 3646 . . . . . .752 . . . . . . . . Weight(pounds)
    4541 . . . . . . . .17881 . . . . 43045 . . . . . 5697 . . . . . . . Volume(Cubic inch)
    0.02%/30 days . 5%/30 days .1%/30 days . 1%/30 days . . .Discharge rate
    3-6 min . . . . . .>3.0 hr . . . 3-15 hr . . . . >3.0 hr . . . . . EV Charging time(full)-100% charge
    None . . . . . . . . High . . . . . Very High . . . High . . . . . . . Life reduced with deep cycle use
    None . . . . . . . . Yes . . . . . . Yes . . . . . . . .Yes . . . . . . . . Hazardous materials
    Negligible . . . . .High. . . . . . Very High . . . High . . . Temperature vs. effect on energy storage


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (11:51 am)

    Kevin #69

    Two questions:

    Where can I buy Hydrogen?

    Where can I buy ethanol?


  74. 74
    noel park

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (12:06 pm)

    #13 Eric C:

    LOL. Thanks. I can use all the laughs I can get.

    #58 Lurtz:

    I got to wondering this AM how much GM’s Daewoo workers in Korea make. I assume that the “overpaid UAW” excuse doesn’t apply to the Daewoo/Aveo. They still can’t seem to build a car to comepete with the Yaris, Versa, and Fit, can they?

    #71 N Riley:

    My sentiments exactly.

    Did anyone see the D.L. Hughley bit over the weekend where he played a tape of the Congessional auto bailout hearings with Santa in the dock asking for a bailout? Pretty cute.


  75. 75
    CaptJackSparrow

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (12:13 pm)

    Kevin #69
    I have a plug 110v and 220v in my garage…
    I have 110v on my front porch…
    I have 110v in my backyard…
    I have 110v at work for EV’s…
    I have 110v sockets at work…
    There’s 110v charge stations at the safeway in my neighborhood…
    There’s 110v everywhere I go in the US…
    There’s 110v Solar kits available for Solar to 110v…

    In the voice of Yul Brynner from “The King and I”….
    Etceterra, Etceterra, Etceterra…


  76. 76
    noel park

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (12:14 pm)

    #72 Rashiid Amul:

    No kidding. In LA and Orange Counties, with about 14 million people, and God knows how many “Dual Fuel” cars/SUVs sold, there was 1 (one) E85 pump last time I checked. That may have grown to 2 or 3, but still….

    Lots of CAFE credits though. I some ways this has been a bigger scam than EeStor ever thought of being.


  77. 77
    BiodieselJeep

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (1:50 pm)

    EEStor Haiku # 127946

    I am so tired
    the work of imagery
    explaining vap’ware


  78. [...] GM-Volt Image Credit: EEStor Patent Tags: automobiles, Batteries, battery, Cars, EEStor, EESU, electric [...]


  79. 79
    Zack henery

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (2:28 pm)

    Caps are OK

    but there are issues like long term discharge also caps can explode too.

    The main issue I see with caps is the cost. Caps tend to be very costly.

    You can do this now with a bunch of caps being soldered toughter.


  80. 80
    EEstore ultra-capacitors - Page 7 - Tesla Motors Club Forum

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (2:46 pm)

    [...] granted a patent which gives new insight to their technology: EEStor is Granted a New Patent on the EESU Revealing Extensive Details | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electr… [...]


  81. 81
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (4:11 pm)

    75 Noel Park,

    Exactly. Hydrogen is either a scam or a very long way off.
    Electricity is here and Ethanol is growing. We are E10 here by law.


  82. 82
    BruceCarpenter

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (4:25 pm)

    Not having read my predecessors above yet, I risk repeating ….
    The first press release for a new advancement doesn’t mention the drawbacks, especially the grandly destructive ones.

    I’ll wait for the first couple years of production before I jump on the bandwagon. No doubt an important advance though it is, I’ve seen too much snake oil in my time such as nuclear powered cars and airplanes.

    The environmental impact itself will probably take 25 or 30 years of llitigation before we can get production ramped up.


  83. 83
    kc_eric

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (5:26 pm)

    Is this device in any way similar to a flux capacitor?
    Just wondering…


  84. 84
    savuporo

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (5:41 pm)

    Ok, this needs to be said once again. Even if it _did_ work, the numbers that they are quoting wont be useable, real-life numbers, because its next to impossible to build power electronics so that the entire capacity of a supercapacitor bank can be used. A cap has basically a linear discharge graph, whereas lithium batteries have almost flat discharge curve over the useable capacity, meaning the DC-DC or DC-AC inverter feeding the power into actuators, normally a motor will have to be quite different for both. And building power electronics for something that would start at 3500 volts and discharge all the way down to few hundred volts while delivering stable power is no cakewalk. Doable, but not easy and not cheap.

    Summing it up, even if the energy storage principle works, its still a far cry from a useable power source for EVs.


  85. [...] week EEStor was granted a US patent for their electric-energy storage unit, of which no one outside the company has seen so much as a [...]


  86. 86
    EEStor Snags Its Patent « Earth2Tech

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (6:30 pm)

    [...] EEStor Snags Its Patent Written by Katie Fehrenbacher No Comments Posted December 22nd, 2008 at 3:30 pm in Startups Looks like EEStor, the high-profile Texas energy storage startup, finally got its patent. According to the U.S. patent office it was issued on Dec. 16 (hat tip GM-Volt.com). [...]


  87. [...] last week EEStor, the secretive battery company, was granted a US patent for their electric-energy storage unit, of which no one outside the company has seen so much as a [...]


  88. 88
    Mark Z

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (7:19 pm)

    After dozing while reading the patent, I found that singing “The Roses of Success” kept me wide awake.

    http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/chittychittybangbang/therosesofsuccess.htm

    (That song generates a positively charged up attitude!)

    EEStor will have to turn their ashes of disaster (possible explosions) into their roses of success.

    Patents must equal production, and not some movie production. Hollywood makes cars fly; but I still can’t buy one yet.


  89. 89
    EEStor Gets Closer to Reality — FactBooster

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (8:31 pm)

    [...] Source [...]


  90. 90
    Tom

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (9:54 pm)

    Where did Simon Phoenix leave his stun baton ?


  91. 91
    EEStor Snags Its Patent

     

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    Dec 22nd, 2008 (11:03 pm)

    [...] finally got its patent. According to the U.S. patent office it was issued on Dec. 16 (hat tip GM-Volt.com). A lot of the details of the patent, which was filed Aug. 13, 2004, have been online for some [...]


  92. 92
    EEStor Snags Its Patent | Eco Friendly Mag

     

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    Dec 23rd, 2008 (4:51 am)

    [...] Looks like EEStor, the high-profile Texas energy storage startup, finally got its patent. According to the U.S. patent office it was issued on Dec. 16 (hat tip GM-Volt.com). [...]


  93. 93
    DaveP

     

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    Dec 23rd, 2008 (5:12 pm)

    The lack of a prototype is, was and always will be a problem for this kind of technology. They have basically claimed they can make a 30F capacitor and that they can make it withstand 3500V. Notwithstanding any other problems (like safety) or whatever, there is a fundamental flaw with that line of reasoning. Namely, electrons don’t behave ohmically when immersed into fields of that high strength. We’re seeing it in the semiconductor industry (semiconductor electronics is my area of engineering). Google around for “high electrical field saturation” or “velocity saturation” here’s a relatively easy to read one:
    http://britneyspears.ac/physics/highfields/highfields.htm

    What they’re talking about at EEStor are capacitors with 1000 times the field strength of anything currently produced. Today, you can buy 80F capacitors, but they barely hold a Volt on them. It’s a different formulation (carbon based) but simply making a material that can withstand high Voltages doesn’t mean the resulting capacitors are going to behave the same way you think they will.

    And there’s the problem. There’s not a huge amount of research on the effects of high field strengths in electronic components and what there has been tends to indicate a serious questionioning of EEStor’s probable underlying assumption that electrons will behave as they do for low field strength electronics.

    So, as much as I’d love for the thing to work, we should all just move along until there’s something to see, here. :)
    Short of an acutal working anything, this probably doesn’t merit our time except for idle chatter on extremely slow news weeks, perhaps. ;)


  94. 94
    DaveP

     

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    Dec 23rd, 2008 (5:23 pm)

    #93 DaveP:

    Hmmm, reading what I just wrote, maybe it is better to provide a summary:
    1) making a 30F capacitor is one thing. It’s hard, but doable.
    2) making materials withstand 3500V is another thing. Doable.
    3) making a 30F capacitor out of material that can withstand 3500V is really difficult. That is what EEStor is trying to do.
    4) HOWEVER, If you succeed in making that device what you are likely to find is that you will only see 30F at low voltages. As you increase the voltage, the useful capacitance is highly likely to go down (due to the undesired effects of electrons in high field strengths). If the device actually saturates somewhere along that curve, you will reduce the capacitance just about linearly with the increase in voltage
    5) If this is the case than this means you can not get the energy density you thought you could get (indeed, it will peak out a some point long before you get the full Voltage on the capacitor) because you didn’t take the saturation effects into account.


  95. [...] EEStor Inc. was granted a patent last week on highly energy dense electric storage units for electric vehicles.  Better known as EESUs, these batteries may revolutionize energy storage because unlike lithium-ion cells, this device is said not to degrade with cycling.  Therefore, these batteries could theoretically have an unlimited lifetime, GM-Volt reported. [...]


  96. 96
    jefro

     

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    Dec 23rd, 2008 (10:17 pm)

    Not sure I’d ever invest in a patent like that. I wish them well. There will be improvements in technology, they may have it.


  97. 97
    Cautious Fan

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (12:03 am)

    Lyle

    “It seems to me this patent is rather elaborate for anything disingenuous, and perhaps they’ve really got a genuine breakthrough after all”
    ______________________________________________________
    As someone who holds several patents myself, I want to try and realign this belief. Many people outside of the R&D world hold patents in high regard. Within the R&D world, we often apply for patents for everything under the sun. My yearly goals include filing for at least 1 patent a year, and since my raise depends on meeting my goals, I consistently apply for 2 per year.

    You can bet the quality of a patent varies wildly, and it’s going to be almost impossible for an outside observer to tell the difference.

    If you want to find a good patent, use the Google search algorithm method. Good patents will be referenced by other patents, especially non EESTOR patents.


  98. 98
    Steve

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (8:12 am)

    The following is a newsletter from Ian Clifford CEO of ZENN. This guy is an excellent salesman. The bottom line it there is NO EESU.

    [Newsletter - December 23, 2008 8:14:08 PM MST]

    Dear ZENN Enthusiasts,

    Well 2008 has certainly been an exciting year! We have made tremendous progress across a variety of fronts including the advancement of both the cityZENN and ZENNergy drive system projects.

    Related to these projects is the commercialization of EEStor’s energy storage technology and while not press released, it should be noted that EEStor recently dramatically increased their intellectual property protection. Patents were granted in the month of December further ensuring that EEStor’s technology and production processes are protected. If you refer to the details of the patent granted on December 17th 2008 (patent PDF) I believe that you will gain a better appreciation for the significance of the technology and the complexity involved in its commercialization. The EEStor EESU has the potential to be as disruptive to the 21st century as the internal combustion engine was to the 20th century!

    With the end of 2008 quickly approaching, it appears less likely that we will have the 3rd party verification of permittivity or the prototype EESU this year as we had hoped. So we’ll all need to wait for these major milestones and the full commercialization of EEStor’s technology but rest assured that ZENN Motor Company continues with its development efforts so as to be fully ready to capitalize on the technology as soon as available.

    EEStor’s technology represents such a significant leap forward in energy storage that once all milestones have been achieved, I am confident that you, as one of our stakeholders, will be deeply satisfied in how it will enable ZENN Motor Company to become the global leader in zero emission transportation solutions.

    I firmly believe that 2009 will be the year that the automotive industry changes forever – and not just because of the current economic turmoil we are all familiar with, but led by the commercialization of disruptive zero emission automotive solutions by ZMC. I am very excited about ZMC’s pending Electric Vehicle introduction in 2009 and I look forward to sharing more about our significant progress early in the coming year.

    I would also like to take this opportunity to thank our committed Retailers for their vision and leadership in their respective markets, the entire ZENN team who work tirelessly to move us towards our goal of becoming the global leader in zero emission transportation solutions, and our shareholders and loyal supporters who support us in so many ways throughout the year.

    From all of us at ZMC, we wish each of you and your loved ones a safe and happy holiday season.

    All the Best,

    Ian Clifford
    Founder and Chief Executive Officer
    ZENN Motor Company


  99. [...] &#80atent file (.pdf l&#105n&#107) v&#105&#97 &#71M-Volt &#118&#105a [...]


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    Technopete

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (9:17 am)

    The Eestor patent states that 10 components have been tested, out of the 31,351 that are required to build a 51KWH EESU. The patent says these 10 components have the correct relative permittivity at 3,500v to give the full EESU a capacity of 51KWH. It is there in black and white.

    You either believe the patent or you don’t. But if you believe the patent is neither a lie nor a scam, then you have to believe that individual components with the required properties exist.

    The problem Eestor has is that these are lab-produced components, and there are probably not enough in existence to make even one full EESU. Now they have to transfer this technology from the lab to the production line and get bulk purity, permittivity and component yields high enough to manufacture at a reasonable price. Technology transfer is often tricky and time consuming, partiularly in high-tech industries such as pharmaceuticals.

    I’m not surprised that the technology transfer process is taking longer than originally antiipated. But Dick Weir of Eestor will doubtless plug away until he has got this problem cracked. He may be late, but he will deliver eventually.

    Being late does not make Eestor a scam. Lying in a patent would make it a scam. Somehow, I cannot believe that the Eestor guys with the reputations they have would lie. Further, there seems little point in a scam at present as Eestor is not taking any money from the public right now, and investors and licensees have all had the opportunity to do due dilligence and measure the existing components in the Eestor lab if they want to.

    Eestor does not owe anyone except its shareholders (somewhere between 10 and 20) and licensees a duty to keep them informed as to how it is getting on.

    As to why Eestor does not make existing lab-produced components available to a 3rd party to test – why should they? As soon as components leave the lab then there is a risk that others can reverse assemble them and Dick Weir has patent lawsuits to fight. Better to just wait until the Eestor production line is up and running then he is always ahead of potential competitors. Also, think of the fuss that Big Oil is going to make about this. If you were Eestor you would keep your head down and avoid all the bother until you were good and ready to deliver in volume.

    Sure we are all curious as to what is happening, but we should be more patient. Not that the outcome depends on whether we are patient or not!


  101. 101
    EEStor gets patent for EESU, we get some details | Only Hybrids

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (9:20 am)

    [...] Patent file (.pdf link) via GM-Volt via [...]


  102. [...] Patent file (.pdf link) via GM-Volt via [...]


  103. 103
    EEStor gets patent for EESU, we get some details | Gfeen.com

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (3:38 pm)

    [...] Pat­en­t­ f­il­e (.pd­f li­n­­k­) vi­a GM-Vo­­l­t vi­a [...]


  104. 104
    EEStor gets patent for EESU, we get some details | Gfeen.com

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (3:38 pm)

    [...] Pat­en­t­ f­ile (.pdf l­in­­k) via GM-Volt v­ia­ [...]


  105. 105
    EEStor gets patent for EESU, we get some details | Gfeen.com

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (3:41 pm)

    [...] Pat­e­nt­ fi­le­ (.pd­f l­i­nk) vi­a GM­-Volt­ v­i­a [...]


  106. 106
    jharlan

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (6:55 pm)

    This has generated a lot of interest. Conventional wisdom says it can’t be done. Conventional wisdom is nearly always proven to be wrong. I think the engineering problems can be solved, and in a few years these devices will be used in a large number of devices. Of course it remains to be seen if EESTOR are the guys that can pull it off. My son tells me Honda has an off road motorcycle out now that uses a capacitor instead of a battery for it’s electric starter. Watch out for Honda. They have the resources, and their strategic planning is awesome!


  107. 107
    Steve

     

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    Dec 24th, 2008 (7:25 pm)

    http://gas2.org/2008/12/23/interview-honda-chie

    “More than ten years ago, Honda’s Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) power train was first introduced with the J-VX concept and was originally developed with an ultracapacitor instead of NiMH batteries.”


  108. 108
    Max Ketcham

     

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    Dec 27th, 2008 (12:24 am)

    I jave a major concern with this patent being “new art” the capacitor may be new, but th “array” is an old tried and true method of connecting capacitors for energy storage. To me it sounds and looks like they are trying to patent the array more than the capacitors.. I’m afraid that if they are able to do this then they will try to make all maufactures od ac and dc drives, power supplies and audio power equipment pay them to do what they have been doing for 100 years for free. Anyone else see this? or am I just being paranoid?


  109. 109
    tomatolord

     

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    Dec 28th, 2008 (10:12 pm)

    #97 patent man…

    i know a few people who applied for patents that did not get them.

    I know other companies that did NOT apply for patents on processes or systems becuase they did NOT want others to know about them. I know a 100 million dolla company that wont patent their software to keep it secret.

    vc’s will usually only invest if there is a patentable process or idea they can capitolize.

    owners of the patent do not want vc’s money they want other investors that have a lower voting share.

    to be a futurist you need to not take today into the future, the future is just that ..things you could not imagine could be real (xbox live, iphones) 5 years ago..

    tomatolord


  110. 110
    Dave Mc

     

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    Dec 29th, 2008 (12:10 pm)

    Can you say electroshock therapy. I am guessing EEStor is having two problems. First, they are generating catastrophic arcing that kills the capacitor. My next guess is that if by some chance they do charge this beast up it generates so much mechanical stress that it cracks their ferrite spacer layer. I also wonder about arc events at the edges of the capacitor where the fringing of the field goes wacko.

    Let’s do a simple calculation. The dielectric constant of their material is supposed to be something like 10,000. Given they have provided C=32 and V=3200, I can determine what the charge must be on their device. I don’t know how big the caps are, but will assume they are 10cm x 10cm. The force of the plates on each other are 2.4×10^18 Newtons. The force of gravity on a 55kg human is only 550 Newtons. Their cap must be under huge pressure and the stresses are insane. If anything, I think they have developed a electromechanical bomb.

    Note, the smaller the footprint of their cap, the larger the force between the plates and the higher the pressure (force/area). However, my guess is they get catastrophic arcing long before the thing explodes.


  111. 111
    skierpage

     

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    Dec 30th, 2008 (9:01 am)

    #106 jharlan
    “Conventional wisdom is nearly always proven to be wrong. ”

    What a ridiculous statement. It happens quite rarely.


  112. 112
    hey steve

     

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (10:52 pm)

    steve,

    are you the same steve from b’s blog: http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com?


  113. 113
    Exuma

     

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    Jan 6th, 2009 (8:24 am)

    Folks, let us assume that Zenn and Light Vehicles do not have the firepower to fully analyse the Eestor technology – do you really believe that Eestor can dupe Lockheed Martin and the guys at Kleiner Perkins, each of whom have enormous technical expertise backing them up?

    Bear in mind that Lockheed has committed itself to the extent of filing a patent application for military usage – these guys are not fools.

    I encourage the sceptics to continue to wallow in doubt and reap the attendant rewards.


  114. 114
    Wordt het toch nog wat met die supercondensators? | hilpers

     

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    Jan 18th, 2009 (10:10 am)

    [...] het toch nog wat met die supercondensators? http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/21/eestor…-and-function/ "The EESU is composed of 31,353 of these components arranged in parallel. It is said to have [...]


  115. 115
    dennisgunn

     

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    Jun 29th, 2009 (8:35 pm)

    This is not really true. I have obtained 9 patents 6 of which are international. It does take a lot of work but not all that much money if you do it yourself.