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The Chevy Volt’s E-REV Competition Builds Globally

December 16th, 2008 | Posted in: Competitors, E-REV

Here on the verge of GMs collapse and despite the collapse of oil and gas prices, the drumbeat of competition continues to march upon the Volt.

As many have heard, Chinese auto company BYD announced its launch of the world’s first mass-produced extended-range electric car called the BYD F3DM in China on Monday. The vehicle uses less expensive lithium-iron phosphate batteries that its parent company manufactures and has a 62 mile all electric range. Like the Volt, there’s an onboard generator (1.0 L) that can charge the battery on the fly, but unlike the Volt the car can also perform in parallel mode. BYD has priced the car at $22,000 USD, expects to sell 10,000 units in China in 2009, and hopes to sell in America in 2011. So enthused by the companies profits, billionaire investor Warren Buffet has purchased 9.9% of the company.

Chrysler too up against the ropes of insolvency is still taking aim at GM.

CNN has just published an interview with Lou Rhodes, Chrysler’s vice president for advanced vehicle engineering. Taking a stab at GM, Rhodes said Chrysler “isn’t a one electric vehicle company” indicating Chrysler plans to build a suite of electric cars.

Instead of building a uniquely designed electric car from the ground up like the Volt, Chrysler plans to build cars that come in either gas or electric models. This they say will save money and allow them to adapt rapidly to wild swings in gas prices. For if gas prices stay low they will build proportionally more gas models, if gas prices go high again, more electric ones. They have already demonstrated three concepts, an electric sports car called the Dodge EV, and an extended-range Jeep 4×4 and minivan.

Finally, Mercedes who plans to make their whole fleet electric by 2015 has come out with more facts about their BlueZero concept. Three cars are planned, a pure electric, a range extended electric, and a fuel cell. Confirming production intention, Dr. Thomas Weber of Mercedes Benz said, “small-scale production of Mercedes-Benz cars with battery-electric drive alone will then commence in 2010.”

Posted by: Lyle

157 Responses to “The Chevy Volt’s E-REV Competition Builds Globally”

jeremy Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:15 am

well if gm cant make the volt atleast someone is trying to make an afordable car
something the big three cant for a decade…

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:18 am

Competition will not only help consumers but will also help/force companies to innovate and make better products.

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D LO Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:26 am

I’m amazed that Mercedes has plans to be entirely electric in 2015 and doesn’t have more hitting the market now. I suspect they may follow their former US counterpart and keep with gas, at least in the States, should it remain unrealistically cheap.

I’m not a fan of taxes, by any means, but some sort of floor needs to be established to keep incentives in place for electric vehicles. As for CNG, Hydrogen or other fuels…that is the beauty of electric. It is the ultimate flex fuel. If CNG or hydrogen make sense to you, put them in your backyard and not on my roads (essentially a bomb).
Competitors called GM crazy, but they are jumping on the bandwagon now. Ford has yet to arrive, which is interesting since they seem to be doing a number of things right.

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Spin Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:27 am

Fords new plant in Brazil:

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

This type of plant can not be built in the US because UAW will object.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:32 am

D LO #3

I largely agree with you but with one exception.

A gasoline tank filled with gas is also a bomb.
CNG and Hydrogen will be made as safe or safer than current standards today. But I don’t think CNG and Hydrogen are good solutions to our problems either.

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beng Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:38 am

…hoping that they deliver what they promise…

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jeff j Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:42 am

Did anyone think the Volt was the only game in town ?
One million EREV will be produced by 2011 and 5 million yearly by 2013 , JMO

2020 gas hits .25 cents a gallon and Opec comes crawling to the USA for hand outs and TARP money hehehe !!!

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:42 am

Ever see the inside of a BYD car? They give new meaning to “plain Jane”. But, this does offer an option to the frugal group who want function only in a daily driver. I may test drive one for grins.

=D~

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GLV Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:48 am

This is truly good news. Whether you’re a GM stalwart or not, competition in the electrification of the personal vehicle will spurn manufacturers on to produce more and more EREVs and BEVs.

From a consumer perspective, this means we can benefit from the same economies of scale that bring so many other specialty products into our homes at low prices. From a GM management standpoint, this pushes them on to spread the E Flex platform across more vehicles and car lines to compete.

It’s a win-win scenario in my book!

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blkstne Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:51 am

Don’t forget Volvo’s plug-in (Ford owns Volvo)
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/02/01/volvo-c30-plug-in-hybrid-concept/

Here is a qoute from the article:
“Analysis: This development appears to encompass all the excitement of the innovative E-Flex plug-in electric platform, matched with the practicality of a highly efficient diesel engine. Plus, while the C30 is still a concept car, it looks closer to production than the radical Volt. Volvo and Ford might steal GM’s thunder yet.”

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Bob McGovern Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:56 am

A little of something (BYD) is better than a lot of nothing (Volt).

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D LO Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:03 am

#4 Spin
You should check out–in person–the Ford Rouge plant. They actually have tours for the public. Amongst the innovations, the use of Sod on the roof to absorb rainwater and reduce cooling expenses. Pretty cool, oh, and in Detroit.

At half the cost I could customize my BYD to look like the concept Volt, and do whatever on the inside, too.

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THOM Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:09 am

Lets face it, the volt is just a attempt to get investors interested in GM but it failed since most people with any common sense would not spend their hard earned cash on GMs supposed technology.

With the constant design changes, waiting for the perfect battery and any other lame excuse to delay the so call “production”

A serious developement project would have used any current battery (lead acid, nicad, niMH ect) and continued developement. Then once all the bugs worked out, pull out your old battery and silp in your new miracle battery.

Gms extensive advertisement for a product that is minimal of 3 yrs away is just plain stupid.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:13 am

Jeff J # 7 says,
2020 gas hits .25 cents a gallon and Opec comes crawling to the USA for hand outs and TARP money hehehe !!!

——-
Good one. But if OPEC come crawling here for a hand out, I would be the first one sticking his middle finger up at them.

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Mitch Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:15 am

it is soooo slow…even Toyota is delaying the Prius plant..

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081216/AUTO01/812160365/1148/rss25

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D B Cooper Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:17 am

I wonder how much lead based paint that BYD contains. Also, how many environmental, OSHA, and NTSB regs would have been broken had that BYD been built in the US. There are good reasons it came in at $22k; and not all of them have to do with Chinese superiority.

As far as the green cred; how much alkali waste can you justify dumping in the local river in order to remove the greenhouse gas emissions from the roads to the (coal fired) power plant ?

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Msk1ster Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:18 am

#4

Just goes show that the UAW is nothing but a festering cancerous growth!

Get ride of the UAW and the American auto industry wins!!!

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:19 am

Why doesn’t OPEC just buy the Big 3 outright? They can reopen the SUV factories. And retrofit the Aveo factory to manufacture 3 hose hookahs. Nothing but up-side.

=D~

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:20 am

THOM #13

GM has to start somewhere.
Who is to say at this point that the BYD will be better than the Volt?

For a very brief time back in the 1980’s I dated a girl who had a Yugo.
I drove that car. Believe me when I tell you it was really poorly made and poorly put together. If the BYD is the same, it won’t go far in this country in regard to sales.

But we will have to wait and see.

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Gsned57 Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:32 am

If BYD makes cars like Harbor Freight makes tools I’d be scared to go over 20 MPH. I’m all for a cheap EREV, but they poisened our dog food, poisened our kids toys, poisened their own kids baby formula, poison their air, and make tools that break the first time you try to use them. I just can’t see a chinese car company producing anything more than crap.

Maybe sams club will sell them in bulk so that when one breaks down you throw it away and use another.

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Herm Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:39 am

Maybe it is a $10k car with a $10k battery?.. lets face it, the Volt is overpriced.

Will the chinese car qualify for a rebate?

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THOM Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:41 am

#20

And the sad part is american companies like GM are supporting building products in china.

In addition, the cheap harbor freight stuff is imported into the US by US companies..most all brands of tools including craftsman!

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kert Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Shopping at wal-mart but not buying chinese cars ? Lets give it a year or two .. Also lets recall where the Japanese cars were just a few decades back. Or Koreans a decade back.
Now is a good time to start learning mandarin.

Btw, in many ways China is spearheading many green technologies, they are shutting down their dirtiest coal powerplants fast, they have heavily invested in residential solar heating and power, they have ginormous numbers of electric bikes on the roads and quite a few other bits and pieces.

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Guy Incognito Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:48 am

That was really nice of billionaire investor Warren Buffet to purchase 9.9% of the company that will directly compete with GM, an American company.
I wonder if Warren has ever been thankful for making all that money on the American Free Market System?
But then again Warren is always one step ahead, he learned how to speak Chinese years ago.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:48 am

I am just happy these configurations are getting built. The market seems prepped now for range extended electric vehicles (instead of a BEV that takes 8 hours to fully recharge).

It is too bad that the unions wouldn’t accept an immediate pay cut, especially since the CEO’s were ready to accept a salary of $1. That little snag prevented the loans from going through, and will prevent these companies for any chance at being viable in the future.

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D B Cooper Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:50 am

23 Kent –

True. They even went so far as to shut down half the country for the Olympic games so the air was kind of see-thru.

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statik Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:03 am

#21 Herm

Maybe it is a $10k car with a $10k battery?.. lets face it, the Volt is overpriced.

Will the chinese car qualify for a rebate?
===================================
There is no restrictions on the country of origin to get this rebate.

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D'Artagnon Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:06 am

Competition is good. Tell the Big 3 to stay out of my pocketbook.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:16 am

Hey Uncle Sam… got an extra TARP? 12/16/08 0905 ET

MINNEAPOLIS – Best Buy Co., the nation’s biggest consumer electronics retailer, said Tuesday that its third-quarter profit sank as it faced dramatic changes in consumer spending and added it will offer buyout packages to nearly all its corporate employees in an effort to cut costs.

The company also plans to cut capital spending by 50 percent in 2009 and open “significantly” fewer stores in the U.S., Canada and China.

Chief Executive Brad Anderson called the past 90 days the “most challenging consumer environment our company has ever faced,” and said there has been a “dramatic and potentially long-lasting change in consumer behavior.”

The company had already seen its biggest rival, Circuit City Stores Inc., file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in November.

Profit at Richfield, Minn.-based Best Buy fell 77 percent to $52 million, or 13 cents per share, in the three months ended Nov. 29. That’s down from $228 million, or 53 cents per share, a year ago.

=D~

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am

Nickel Zinc rechargable’s may be here soon. No price or date announced yet. Volt 2.0.

http://gizmodo.com/5111137/nickel+zinc-rechargeable-batteries-to-seriously-challenge-one-and-dones

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Eco Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:55 am

GM will get some bridge money from Paulson.

New Congress will come in, funds a stimulus package including grid modernization.

Obama takes office

California gets it’s waiver for CO2 control from cars, as do the dozen other states that adopted the same ones

The two remaining US car companies ask for additional funding to transition to more hybrids to meet CA standards. They get it.

GM/Chrysler (one company) announces two or more suppliers for E-Rev batteries in multiple cars starting in 2011, and projects most cars they sell will be some kind of hybrid within 7 years.

As the US economy finally grows again at the end of 2009, the price of oil hits 65 dollars. In the following years as the 10,000th E-REV hits the street, Congress imposes a gas guzzler gas tax to fund road construction.

From there, it’s a race as to what will happen first:

Gas returns to 4.00 a gallon, or 100,000 E-Revs hit the street.

They both cannot happen.

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statik Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:55 am

As to the topic:
“The Chevy Volt’s E-REV Competition Builds Globally”

The competition of which company can convert the most oxygen to carbon dioxide talking about this?
=========================
How long have Chinese automakers been saying their ‘regular’ cars have been ‘coming soon’ to the US? A decade? Exactly.

Remember when Chery announced in 2005 that they were going to enter the US market in January of 2007, sell 250,000 cars right out the gate, introduce a new model every three months and sell 1,000,000 per year by 2010?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-01/10/content_510854.htm

Then we had Geely at the Detroit Auto Show in 2006. They said they would be sells tons of cars in the US (introduced in the summer/early fall) in 2008, for under $10,000. Ah, the ‘CK’ sedan 25/35 MPG, where art thou?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10779158/

…don’t you just hate going down the roads today and seeing hundreds of Cherys and Greelys everywhere?
========================
Now we are to believe BYD has made the greatest car since the Model T, a $22,000 sedan with a 63 mile EV/ICE in America in 2011?

Put me in the group of “I will believe it when I see it…at a dealership”

/happy to be proven wrong…go to it BYD

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nataraj Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:56 am

—
Did anyone think the Volt was the only game in town ?
One million EREV will be produced by 2011 and 5 million yearly by 2013 , JMO

2020 gas hits .25 cents a gallon and Opec comes crawling to the USA for hand outs and TARP money hehehe !!!
–

I guess your are joking, still …

How many more people would have got gas cars in China and India by then ? They produced more than 10 million vehicles per year – almost all going to new car owners (or their old cars go to new car owners).

World has some 800 million vehicles now … so 5M is a drop in the bucket even otherwise.

Ofcourse, Opec too knows how supply side economics works.

Rebound from the current recession will not be easy on oil prices and may lead to its own recession. It is time to cut off economic activity from oil.

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Jackson Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am

IF the BYD or a similar asian EREV is poorly made, as well as first, it could give the whole EREV concept a black eye it will take the whole automobile industry years to overcome.

I am especially cautious of any battery containing Nickel, including existing Nimh cells, because of it’s toxicity. True, we all use lead batteries to start traditional ICE cars, but this has been a success story due to rigorous recycling efforts and incentives.

I wanted to comment in the “What hybrids should GM make” thread, a couple back, but was too busy (and who reads an old thread?).

I think GM should push 2-mode at least as hard as EREV, for a couple of reasons:

First, let’s consider that even if there are no hiccups along the way, it will take time for the battery supplier (if we ever get one named) to ramp up to any kind of meaningful volume. We’ve all heard the figures; still no significant volume after Volt release + 3 years (in terms of the total US fleet of cars). Costs will be a direct result of this battery capability, which is itself a moving target because of continuing research.

Second, let’s consider a two-mode Cruze. The baseline Cruze, it’s claimed, will get 50 mpg (let’s assume that, for the moment). Two-mode can make up to a 50% improvement. This gets the Cruze into 70 mpg territory — and who knows what HCCI could do beyond that?

The main difference between the two cars is that the Volt is subject to continuously adapting battery technology/supply issues. With one important exception, the two-mode Cruze, once engineered, can simply be cranked out at whatever number the market can support.

The important exception is it’s NimH battery. They contain toxic Nickel, are in short supply, and besides the numbskulls sold the patent.

I have a suggestion which allows the two projects to sort of spur each other along: Build the two-mode Cruze with Lithium Ion batteries. At first, this sounds like it would take battery capacity away from the Volt, but in fact, it would give a great incentive to any fledgling battery manufacturer of a much larger electric fleet. This will enable more funds to be risked for the kind of investment it will take to ramp up battery volumes for both cars.

A smaller battery than the Volt’s is not so much a white-knuckle proposition, since replacement need not be such an economic hardship. Adaptation in battery chemistry/design could be undertaken more readily (and less expensively) than for the Volt.

Yes, there has to be that commitment to both projects to keep one from feeding on the other, but I believe that commitment has been made.

Except for the BYD, it appears that electrification will take a lot longer for people making less than 6 figures a year (Benz? Volvo? Volt, for that matter), and a 70-80 mpg Cruze is a pretty good consolation prize for those extra years.

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Brad G Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am

#4 Spin

Exactly, UAW is a dinasour. Every industry in the US is burdened by Unions. Auto, Airline, etc.

Unions had their place in time, just like the horse and buggy. It is time for them to die out. Which is why the Unions are pushing for open vote in work places. Unions are trying to remain revelant.

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CorvetteGuy Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Yes, but no matter where you drive it, you have to recharge it again in an hour.

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bill cosworth Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:12 am

These cars are PR stunts

These cars are totally unsafe.

Also the batteries last 4 years max.

So if you want to DIE and keep on buying batteries at walmart get one.

People you get what you pay for. Quality cost money.

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Randy C. Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:19 am

I hate to say it, the lesser company in Detroit, Chrysler, has a better business plan. If GM had made an electric Cobalt or Aveo they would now have the right product on the road today. Instead we have to wait at least another year for a GM car that will help free us from the evil greedy oil empire. Even then the Volt has to use gas to keep up a 1999 EV1 with its 144 MPC range.

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Gary Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:31 am

The reason why China is (or was?) doing so well financially is the lack of government red tape. Less environmental restrictions which decreases costs. Less labour laws which decreases costs. Decreased costs leads to decreases MSRPs.

In order to compete with Chinese-make products, America will have to lower its standard of living. Stuff like dealing with products that are less “safe”. Less safety regulations which leads to higher development and manufacturing costs. Either that, or devalue the U.S. dollar so importing products from China will be cost-probibitive. (!)

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Tagamet Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:37 am

Welcome back Statik. I figured that you were either away or showing massive restraint since people have been throwing the “H word” around in the last few threads.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS

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DaV8or Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:38 am

I really love the way that the same people that doubt the Volt will happen, will ever get it’s 40 miles and will ever be reliable, take BYD at face value. For these people, F3DM will absolutely go 62 miles, will be in every market by 2010 in huge quantities and they have no issues what so ever with the quality.

There is this big push to get off foreign oil, but no concern what so ever about getting off cheap Chinese product. Can’t anyone see that buying every consumer product in your life from one source is just as bad as buying oil from OPEC?

Competition is good? When the Chinese let the market value their money, when they let the market determine their labor rates, when they afford intellectual property rights to be protected and when they allow product liability claims to be pursued, THEN MAYBE THERE WILL ACTUALLY BE COMPETITION. Right now there is a national government that is nurturing and protecting supposed private industry to destroy established industries world wide and make China the dominate super power. Americans are so F**cking stupid that they embrace this lop sided “competition” because we pretend the Chinese worker to be our labor slave, when in fact they are becoming our masters one borrowed dollar at a time.

Don’t worry though, guys like Warren Buffet will always do OK, just invest along side him, learn Chinese and you to will profit from the destruction of America and learn to fit in with the new world order. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em I guess.

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Chuck Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am

Competition? I don’t think BYD, Toyota, Honda, etc. see the Volt as competition. You have to exist before you can compete.

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Scott Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:44 am

#35 Brad, #4 Spin

Agreed.

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KentT Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Lyle! Did you write this article? I can’t believe it! Even YOU write, “Like the Volt, there’s an onboard generator (1.0 L) that can charge the battery on the fly…” How many bytes have flown through the ether saying the Volt onboard generator will NOT charge the battery! It comes on and drives a generator which directly powers the electric motor, it does NOT charge the battery!

Wow!

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:58 am

#32 Statik says “I’ll believe it when I see it”

This is exactly what I was thinking. If you look at the cars with the worst resale value, what you find is the Malibu and a whole bunch of Korean cars. My guess is that the Chinese cars will slot in below those, assuming of course that they eventually show up. Making cars is not easy. Making great cars is insanely difficult.

As I understand it, these cars can’t be sold in the US without major modification because of safety and pollution issues. With those additions the weight will go up and the range will go down. And I doubt the actual range at the moment is anything like 60 miles if driven with a NA driving style, probably more like 30-35 miles.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:59 am

Dav8or #41 says,
Americans are so F**cking stupid that they embrace this lop sided “competition” because we pretend the Chinese worker to be our labor slave, when in fact they are becoming our masters one borrowed dollar at a time.

—————-
Wow. I understand your anger, but to blame all Americans for this predicament is really where the stupidity lies.
Dav8or, let me ask you a question. I know that when I go to the store looking for an item, I buy it. How am I, and the average American, supposed to control where the product is made?

I am just as angry as you are with the predicament we find ourselves in, but we can’t just blame all Americans for this fiasco.

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old man Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

#41

Right on!! The only thing you missed is they are poluting the air world wide and we will buy their electric cars and wonder what we are doing to our air and why is it so hard to get a job so we can buy more foreign stuff.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

#31, Eco,

I don’t believe Obama will allow the CO2 emissions laws in a handful of states to stand, because:

1) the 2007 CAFE standards already went a long way to address those concerns, and

2) the automakers are in dire straits at the moment, and adding additional regulation will not help, even with additional funds, if the market doesn’t want to buy the resultant product at such a high price (these new techs will take years to cost reduce).

It is better to see how well GM’s and Mercedes’ E-REV’s are received by consumers, then start making predictions about the future.

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kent beuchert Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:04 pm

So far, every time a price this low was quoyed for the EREV, it turned out to be for the plain hybrid version of this same car. The last valid price quotes were for $30K for the EREV and low twenties for the hybrid, which leads me to believe that the $22K price quoted here is for the hybrid. There was also no mention of the reduced lifespan of the BYD battery pack, which was quoted as lasting 5 years, although it was cheaper than the Volt’s. Also there was a previous quote of a 100 MPH top speed, which doesn’t jibe with the
article’s claim of a 300 lb ft power level. At this point, I have to assume that all the data published is wrong, at least until it can be confirmed by someone who can actually speak Chinese. The language barrier has already resulted in a ton of inaccurate info
about this car. Let’s get it riight, shall we media. And I note that CNN
didn’t even question the valifdity of Chrysler’s claim that it was building a variety of electric cars, and GM not. We all know that Chrysler has no EREV capability – they only have the ability to build pure electrics – circa 1910. They can claim they are producing a wide variety but that’s quite a lie – they are producing the same useless electric cars thta will always fail until a revolutionary battery appears. And we all know that Chrysler doesn’t have one. There will be an assortment of EREVs, a fact well known by everyone, apparently, except Chrysler.

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HyperMiler Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

There is some misconception about Chinese cars in general.

Chinese auto industry is very different from Japanese and Korean auto industry of 40 and 20 years ago; Chinese auto market is fully controlled by foreign brands(75% market share by foreign brands, with Chinese brands losing market share to foreign ones), unlike Japanese and Korean auto markets that were 95% domestically controlled. Japanese and Korean auto industries were run by locals; Chinese auto industry is run by foreigners.

Basically, Chinese communist party made a terrible mistake of letting foreigners in before its domestic makers were mature enough to take on foreigners head to head, because they were eager to jump start the Chinese auto industry. This mistake wasn’t made by Japanese and Korean governments who kept foreigners out until their domestic makers were exporting to the US market and were fully ready to compete with foreign brands head on.

The fact that foreigners are already controlling Chinese domestic market means it is difficult for Chinese domestic automakers to grow and become world players like Japanese and Korean auto makers before them. You can easily tell this from the way cars are engineered. Japanese cars of 70s and Korean cars of 80s were being engineered to US standard, whereas Chinese cars of 2000s are primarily engineered to Chinese standard, which makes them unsuitable for a sale in the US and European markets, much hyped BYD F3DM included.

BYD isn’t a real threat to GM and its Volt; next generation Japanese and Korean PHEV models are.

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RichardG Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Buying Chinese cars will just exacerbate the trade imbalance and will quicken the pace of US borrowing of it’s own currency back from China. There is and has been a long term cost to our huge import appetite. We’re just now seeing the manifestation of the past twenty years.

In addition, Dick Chaney went around the country six years ago saying, at every opportunity, that (Federal) deficits made no difference. That we could and would grow our way out of any amount of Federal borrowing. That has been proven not the case, and not just in part due to the impact of deficits on the US Dollar.

If we ever take part in a global conflict again, who will make our tanks and aircraft and other weapon systems? The Chinese, the Japanese, the Vietnamese? We cannot afford to lose what little manufacturing base remains in this country. Banks and insurance companies are not going to be a lot of help fighting the next wars.

I mentioned this before, but most of the ammunition that we are using in Iraq and Afghanistan is produced in China. It has a higher than 10% failure rate in combat. We had better help ourselves because no one else will (except Canada). We were King-of-the-Mountain for a long time. We’re a great target for the rest of the world trying to knock us off.

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RichardG Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Old Man #41 makes an important point. Asthma in the Washington State is exploding. The cause of this increase has recently been tied to air pollution originating in China and drifting across the Pacific Ocean. We are indeed a small world.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

BYD and other Chinese auto companies will be a threat in 10 to 20 years. The domestic auto companies have plenty of time to be competitive if they really want to be. They had plenty of time with the Japanese competitors during the 1970’s. but failed to fully respond. They are just now trying to come to grips with their competitors. Now that they don’t have the resources to properly compete.

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statik Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm

#40 Tag

Welcome back Statik. I figured that you were either away or showing massive restraint since people have been throwing the “H word” around in the last few threads.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
————
Lol. The mere thought of the ‘H’ word threw me into a multiple night bender. Actually, my son has been pretty ill the last little bit, so he takes priority over my endless GM-Volt postings.
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Side note: I know you have been missing all my ‘doom and gloom,’ … but with the shadow of bankruptcy, the bailout will they/won’t they question, and then the ‘how much’ if they do question, I thought it best to lay low. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to say that the house is on fire when it is already surrounded by fire trucks. But here is one…just for you from today:
—–
European car sales slumped in November

MILAN: European car sales plunged 26 percent in November, the biggest monthly drop since 1999, as the economic recession and tighter credit held back demand for new vehicles, according to a report released Tuesday. GM’s European sales slipped 38 percent to 76,383 vehicles, with the Saab brand falling 46 percent.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/16/business/16auto.php
—–

Europe WAS where GM was making even the slightest gains to offset the US market. So….now what? What does this cliff dive do to the bottom line?

PS) don’t worry, I know I still owe you a good news story Tag–maybe it will be a Christmas morning surprise

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Anthony BC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Love the competition!

At half the price of the VOLT this will be an interesting vehicle to see how it compares with the VOLT…. Gotta call my import specialist !!!

LJGTVWOTR, NPNS, LJBTBFCLSSY, GO EV !

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Eco Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

USA Today’s home page has a picture of hundreds of Chevy and Pontiac new cars, sitting in a lot gathering snow.

Wanna know what I thought of?

Gosh, imagine all the repair bills those cars could generate if people would just start buying them again.

Yea, I’m jaded. But the Volt could cure me.

PS The “handful of states” that adopted CA GHG standards include over half the US driving population.

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Casey Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

IMHO the only people mostly doing business in these troubled times is Wal Mart and foreign car companies that don’t have as many union problems.

It also seems that with the new administration coming in, labor has their eyes on making them all unionized

Can anyone see there’s a problem here?

Can you see why the best thing for GM and the country is to go into chapter 11 and not let the gov. bail them out?

We need compitition to make it all work,

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Alex Besogonov Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Jackson:

Nickel is NOT (very) toxic and is NOT in short supply. Nickel in metallic form is used widely for medical instruments, coins, etc. Its hydrides are not much more toxic.

NiMh elements are thus very safe and reliable. Also, they do not tend to explode after thermal runaway like some lithium elements.

Probably, you’re thinking about NiCd elements which contain cadmium – which is toxic and expensive. But they are not used much anymore.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Statik,

I hope your son is doing better. Hate to hear of children being sick. I have three children and two grandchildren and it hurts to see them sick. Most of the time I pray for me to be sick in their place. Doesn’t work as well as I would want though. They still get sick and so do I. So, maybe some of my sickness, at times, is me being sick in their place.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

The whole world seems to be heading into some kind of recession. Some countries are already there. I am still of the opinion that high crude oil prices have been the primary cause of the world wide crisis. It is the primary ingredient across the world’s economies. That is my opinion, right or wrong.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

@DaV8or 41

Man you sound like one of the screamer posters a while back.
I bet if anyone came into your home you would have a foreign TV, DVD player, Microwave, Telephone, cell phone, Stereo, power tools, game consoles etc….

One word defines you: Hypocrite

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

I am still of the opinion GM needs to build an all electric (BEV) compact car as soon as possible. This car could really help GM flesh out their green agenda and give many commuters a vehicle to get them off petroleum. This is not rocket science like the Volt. This is a pretty straight forward project. I believe GM could build an electric car (BEV) and have it on the streets by next fall. Early 2010 at the latest. If they approached the Obama administration with this plan after he is sworn in, I believe GM would get the necessary funding to see this through. GM has a number of car platforms that could easily be used as an electric car (BEV). They could sell everyone of them they could make. Sure, it would impact some sales of GM’s other vehicles, but those vehicle sales are going to be impacted by other companies offering the same competition. GM needs to get into the game with both feet.

I know that some of you will say that GM doesn’t have the battery to supply a BEV, but I don’t see why not. I know EXXON has the battery technology GM sold in the early part of this decade, but GM could try to license the technology. If EXXON will not play ball, GM could use the congressional clout plus Obama’s clout to get some kind of deal worked out.

Even a BEV that only got 50 miles per charge would be a boon. Surely this can be done. EXXON doesn’t own all battery technology.

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old man Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:34 pm

#61

You are most likely correct, Tho you can still find a FEW power tools made in this country. But China is trying to put them out of business like the foreign competition has done to all the other products you mentioned.
National wealth is created by mining, manufacturing,fishing, and farming. The rest just spread it from one to the other and back again.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/business/23clean.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

CA GHG:
So, if the big 2.5555555 are saying they will be building cars of hybrid, E-REV or BEV, why is this an issue? Any of what I just mentioned would “pass with flying colors”.
Or are they saying “with that law we can’t sell our old stock of gas guzzling low mpg vehicles.”

Seems to me if this was an issue, then the big 2.555555 don’t really ment to do what their plans are tht they submitted to the loan.

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Casey Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Statik

Hope your son will be better soon, My family is praying for him

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

#63 Old Man

China is following the same pattern the Japanese used to gain control of much of what America used to manufacture. They constantly under price products and slowly take over markets. As American companies fold because they can’t compete the Japanese move on the the next market. Korea is doing somewhat the same thing. We just haven’t seen the wide range of market stealing that is going on with China. The real difference this time is that American companies are helping China take over the markets by building plants and facilities in China. The companies’ bottom line and stockholders gain monetary advantages in this new “global” marketing method, but the American taxpayer and consumer are the ones suffering the pains. So, what’s new.

The only “good” thing going on with this marketing style by American corporations is that they are doing the same thing in India and other places which could help negate China’s dominance.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm

#64 CaptJackSparrow

The problem arises as the automakers have to build vehicles that meet different state rules that go further than federal rules. Can you imagine GM having to build cars just for the California market while at the same time building cars for Texas. You could have 50 different sets of rules and regulations to try to follow. Some states may even try to ban vehicles from states that don’t have rules similar to theirs.

No, we need one set of rules to govern this, not fifty. If the EPA doesn’t produce strong enough rules, the states are free to lobby the EPA and the congress to have tougher rules passed.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 1:59 pm

To go a step further on the subject of different rules for different states, we have some of that now with the formulation of gasoline sold within the boundaries of certain states or geographic regions. This different formulation of gasoline causes undue hardship on refineries and at times causes shortages of gas in other markets. This shortage raises the price of gasoline as does the formulation rules. I know there are good reasons for the formulation rules, say as in California, but why not apply those rules nationally if it is such a good practice.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

@N Riley 67

Coming from an engineering standpoint in product design, we typically designed certain products by the “collective of” the tightest specs and developed a products that met all the specs and then a new product was born. My SWAG is that emissions are the culprits. But if an E-REV or BEV is the product,, just as they say they will build, then why all the hoopla?

It just all sounds fishy to me.

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Dave B Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Jason @ 25,

I agree, too bad our unions said “no” to the paycut. I don’t have a union to protect my job… See what happens when I tell teh boss “no.”

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

I often wonder how GM would be responding to the electrification of the automobile if they had plenty of cash on hand and was not weighed down in debt and bad labor contracts. I can’t help but believe GM could do a much better job of producing and marketing an electric (BEV) vehicle than is being done by start-up Tesla. I would like to see congress put some money in the pot totally devoted to producing BEVs that would be mass produced within the next two years. Add $.10 to the federal excise tax on gasoline and diesel to fund the project. Give Ford and GM grants to get started and follow that up with money from the fund as it accumulates. These funds should be in the form of research grants and loans with the plan of collecting part of the money back as the market matures. If the market for BEVs takes off and expands, a portion of the “loan” could be forgiven as an incentive for dedication to the plan.

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

#60 N. Riley says “I am still of the opinion that high crude oil prices have been the primary cause of the world wide crisis. It is the primary ingredient across the world’s economies.”

What you’re saying would be right for the 70s, but, unlike the 70’s, oil now is the tail on dog. The bubble whose bursting has caused the current worldwide recession was in the financial and real estate sectors. High oil prices were the result of demand and supply inelasticity, meaning small increases in demand required much larger increases in price to establish the supply/demand equilibrium. What we’re seeing now with falling demand and even faster falling prices is just the mirror image of that.

While we have continued to use more oil, the increase has been driven by the transportation sector. Overall the economy is much less susceptible to oil price shocks. This is actually quite an important point because it means that it is actually possible to effect a meaningful reduction in oil consumption. Rather than having many sectors heavily dependent on oil, it’s really just transportation, so you can focus on a solution(s).

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

#70 Dave B

I bet the Bush administration is running into the same problem with the union that stopped the “loan” bill in the senate. If they are trying to get concessions from the UAW, they are going to find that there is no chance of that. The UAW seems to think that GM can cut back cost enough to stay in business until Obama is in office. They expect the new congress to come to their rescue in early January and have a “Save The UAW” bill ready for Obama to sign on January 20th. And they are probably going to get everything they are asking for. The UAW hasn’t got to give in to anyone.

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

I have bought a lot of Chineese manufactured electric model airplane motors and a few pre built “Almost Ready to Fly” models. The quality is all over the place. There are companies you can buy from that consistantly have very high quality, others are garbage. You can purchase these from American suppliers that mark them up 100 to 200% or you can buy them directly from the manufacturer or a local supplier. I am guessing that because BYD is first a battery manufacturer (process orientated), that the quality orientation will be quite a bit higher.

The American companies that are playing this game of setting up factories are looking to curry favor with a huge market. They are playing with fire setting up design facilities and teaching them our processes because the Chineese will not hesitate a moment while appropiating this knowledge for their own use. I am specifically thinking of Intel and the semiconductor manufacturers. This type of knowledge should be under export control.

We still manufacture our defense materials, the jets and tanks and such. This is a major export market for us.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

#72 DonC

I understand where “you are coming from”, but I don’t fully agree. I do agree with much of what you said. I still think oil prices were a contributing factor in people not being able to pay for their mortgages. Having so much money tied up in purchasing crude and seeing those hundreds of billions go overseas to not come back into our markets, had the effect of drying up capital in the financial markets. Other factors were at play, I agree, not just oil prices. But, at the same time, the price of crude ad subsequently the price of gas and diesel at the pump caused many people to spend money on fuel to get to and from work and not spend it on other consumer goods. Therefore markets shrunk and financial markets were affected. That is a simplistic answer, but it is still my opinion that high crude prices were very much in the play as one of the causes. They all co-mingled and came about at the same time and it was just too much for the financial markets to absorb.

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N Riley Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

#74 Len

Americans are very happy selling their future to a potential deadly enemy, it seems. We have gone completely out of control over making a mighty dollar that we have lost sight of building American plants in America and training American workers to produce goods that are sold all around the world and takes a back seat to no one. It is all about returning the most investment to the stockholders regardless of the effect on America. God help us because the Chinese will not.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

@N Riley 76

American plants and jobs that have been farmed out of the US i mostly blamed for the high cost of operations and labor in the US. We, the American people and this encompases the UAW, are the ones to blame for this. We allowed the UAW to suck corporations dry because everyone said the Union was good. Well, today we are living with the results.
One sperson said it before. “How can the US compete against corporations that have less stringent regulations than the US?”
Honestly, you can’t.

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm

#73 N Riley

You might be right about the union leaders, but I would not assume that they will find it any easier with Obama. He has said he does not favor giving money to companies that are not viable. We just have to look at the rusted hulks of the steel mills in Pittsburg to remember another union that would not give. They lost all their jobs. Most likely the union leaders made out ok, but not the workers.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Everyone works for the all mighty (or not so mighty now) dollar. If you ran a commodity business and your profitablity was 1.5 million a year, and it was found that if you manufactured in Penang Malaysia and shipped the final products back into the US and it improved profitablity to 2.0 million, what would you decide? You’re in business for the money right? Higher profits right? More Money? Would you tell the investers that you decided NOT to opt for the guranteed 33.333% increase in the companies profit margin?

If you’re not in the business for the money, you’re not in bisiness.

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D B Cooper Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:22 pm

CaptJackSparrow@79 :
“Everyone works for the all mighty (or not so mighty now) dollar. If you ran a commodity business and your profitablity was 1.5 million a year, and it was found that if you manufactured in Penang Malaysia and shipped the final products back into the US and it improved profitablity to 2.0 million, what would you decide? You’re in business for the money right? Higher profits right? More Money? Would you tell the investers that you decided NOT to opt for the guranteed 33.333% increase in the companies profit margin?

If you’re not in the business for the money, you’re not in bisiness.”

———————————————————————————————-

That is true, but if we choose to continue allowing the game to be played that way we are heading for the same standard of living as the countries we import all our crap from.

If we do not choose to lower our own standard of living to those levels, then that will require that we grow a backbone and collectively quit being complete whores.

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Jason Acerman Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

I love all the anti-Chinese car sentiment, meanwhile 90% of every other product in your house is made in China. What’s so sacred about a car vs any other product. It’s a global/wall mart economy. If you business model doesn’t allow to compete globally, you are doomed.

Most people can care less where something is made and by who, they care about price.

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

#75 N. Riley says “I still think oil prices were a contributing factor in people not being able to pay for their mortgages”

The oil spike certainly did not help matters As you say, you can’t move all that consumer spending to gas and not affect purchases of other items. No question about that.

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Tagamet Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:39 pm

Hey Statik,
An illness in the family was another hypothesis, but I didn’t want to tender that. It’s miserable when your kids are sick. I found it an order of magnitude worse when the kiddo was too young to give us a CLUE as to how we could help.
Oh, and if you can put a positive story under my Christmas tree, GM can put a Volt in my driveway (lol)
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS

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D B Cooper Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Jason Acerman@81 :

“I love all the anti-Chinese car sentiment, meanwhile 90% of every other product in your house is made in China. What’s so sacred about a car vs any other product. It’s a global/wall mart economy. If you business model doesn’t allow to compete globally, you are doomed.

Most people can care less where something is made and by who, they care about price.”
————————————————————————————————

That is true. And that’s the one issue where IMO the Dems have a much more realistic view than the Repubs. Fair trade Vs. Free trade. Either this huge trade imbalance in all those other markets will begin to be addressed, or we WILL all be heading for the same $4 a day income level.
We are already circling the toilet bowl; have been for a couple decades. The question is whether we give a damn where we go from here.

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old man Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

#81

Maybe when it is your job or the job of a loved one you will be able to figure it out. right now it will most likely be other people that suffer so why care where it is made.

Damn

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Mitch Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

IF you want to blame anything for the current global crisis, here is one you may not have considered..It was the Olympics.

Totally off the wall right?

Not really. What happened was that the cost of many raw materials went through thte roof. Oil, steel copper, concrete, aluminum etc..all fuelled by demand from China…

Why did China need it? to rebuild many places and venues for the Olympics, they needed to prove they can have modern structures etc to the world, and no $$ was spared. They demand escalated as the Olympics were drawing closer..

The Olympics are done..China is done ordering all these raw materials and only needs for manufacturing reasons again..MAJOR commodity drop…prices through the roof, then below the basement…

Mull that one over a bit…

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noel park Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

#20 Gsned57:

I had been wondering what the channel of distribution for the BYD might be. I was thinking Walmart, but why not Sam’s Club? Buy ‘em in bulk and throw them away when they break. Why not, it’s our culture.

If I can’t get my Chinese Milwaukee electric jigsaw fixed, who is going to fix a Chinese PHEV?

On the other hand, there are going to be plenty of defunct car dealerships to take on the BYD. Our local Chevy dealer is building a brand new building for his Hyundai franchise.

Just remember that the first Hyundais were such junk that the brand almost disappeared. As bad as a Yugo, LOL. Then they came with the 10 year, 100K mile, warranty, and now they have a new plant in one of those good old southern states and dealers building new buildings.

I will never buy a Chinese car in my lifetime, but most Americans clearly do not think that way.

#22 Thom:

Yeah, LOL. Recently I went to Home Depot to get a new jigsaw, because I couldn’t get mine fixed right. After carefully checking every one in the store, I found that they were all made in China. I mean Milwaukeee, Rigid, Skil, you name it. So I said to heck with that and went to Sears. When I got back to the shop and unwrapped my brand new Craftsman tool, no prize for guessing what it said in the tiny print on the side. “Fabrique en Chine”

Today I went to Harbor Freight to try to replace the rotted out tires on my very fine hand trucks bought there. I actually found some made in USA, guaranteed for life (haha) trick polyurethane non-inflated tires. They cost twice as much, but what the hay. Any points for that?

Two years ago we bought a brand new Chevrolet Silverado 1500 pickup. I never even looked at the country of origin sticker until I got it back to the shop. Point of final assembly? Saltillo, Mexico.

What is a person to do?

#80 D B Cooper:

Well, you beat me to it. AMEN!

When our businesses send all of their jobs to Malaysia or China, who is going to have the money to buy their stuff? Just wondering.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

One of the big 2.55555 needs to come out with a commuter BEV. 60 mile range 7hrs to charge. Kind of like the Th!nk.
Hey, Ford should buy them back. They’re in need of funds….lol

Seriously, if one or two mfgrs come out with a small commuter car BEV that’s affordable to the tune of $15K (bare bones, No Radio, No power windows, no power seats, no power door locks, etc…) I think it would sell. As long as the buyer knows the range is EXACTLY 60 miles and it is NOT intended for long ange of any type.
That’s really all most people need. The range anxiety will be ther but as long as you know that’s not what is was for you’ll be OK.

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Rudi Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

Is there a waiting list somewhere I can sign up LOL ? I have a deposit!!! Maybe GM can manufacture the bodies for BuildYourDreams;) The Volt sure looks better, at least from what the picture depicts.

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noel park Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:17 pm

#41 DaV8or & #47 old man:

Amen brothers. Preach on!

#86 CaptJackSparrow:

Put a bowtie on it and I’ll buy it.

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statik Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

#59 N Riley said,

Statik,

I hope your son is doing better. Hate to hear of children being sick. I have three children and two grandchildren and it hurts to see them sick. Most of the time I pray for me to be sick in their place. Doesn’t work as well as I would want though. They still get sick and so do I. So, maybe some of my sickness, at times, is me being sick in their place.
—-
#65 Casey
Statik,Hope your son will be better soon, My family is praying for him
—–
#83 Tag
Hey Statik,
An illness in the family was another hypothesis, but I didn’t want to tender that. It’s miserable when your kids are sick. I found it an order of magnitude worse when the kiddo was too young to give us a CLUE as to how we could help
=======================================

Thank you for your concern fellas. I have taken him down twice to the hospital over the past few days, (well, more like nights). Scary when your child starts hitting mid 100s on the fever and is constantly hacking, especially as Tag says when they are young…although my son articulates very well (unlike his father) for just turning three.

He is at home now, which is good, and on some strong antibiotics. The concern of course is this thing develops into a serious pneumonia, but his fever has come down some (as has our anxiety) and he seems to be improving.

Anywhoo…nothing like a little crisis at home to put the world into perspective.

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GXT Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

59. N. Riley,

If your kids are sick then god made them sick for a purpose. Therefore your prayers will have no effect but to anger god for pretending that you know more than him. That is probably why you got sick as well.

Just kidding. Obviously prayer has no effect. When’s the last time you saw an amputee grow a limb back?

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

D.B. Cooper – If we do not choose to lower our own standard of living to those levels, then that will require that we grow a backbone and collectively quit being complete whores.

—————————————————-

It is so hard when we have such sterling examples of complete whores in Washington. I am hoping the new executive branch raises a little hell with our fat lazy porker legislative branch. But I’m not holding my breath.

If transportation costs eventually rise enough, the local manufacturers will get the business because it will be less expensive to buy local. This is one area where a tax on oil would actually hope local manufacturing.

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Jackson Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Alex Besogonov

Oh, yeah. It was cadmium. I always get those mixed up because of their former association in Nickel Cadmium batteries.

(getting old)
(going to go back to listening to my 8-track)

Even if there are no particular environmental consequences to nickel, they did sell the NimH patent (to an oil company!!!); and there are still potential benefits to pushing forward with 2-mode using Lithium for the other reasons I mentioned.

Potential thermal runaway problems in Lithium are a problem which must be solved in any case for the Volt program to move forward as planned.

DaV8or:

+1 for

“There is this big push to get off foreign oil, but no concern what so ever about getting off cheap Chinese product.”

But -27 or so for

“Americans are so F**cking stupid” …

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:55 pm

Hope should be help, ran out of edit time.

The A123 batteries do not have thermal runaway problems. It has to do with their design. I think they are superior in every way to the LG batteries, except the company size and I would guess price.

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DaV8or Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:00 pm

CaptJackSparrow #61

“Man you sound like one of the screamer posters a while back.
I bet if anyone came into your home you would have a foreign TV, DVD player, Microwave, Telephone, cell phone, Stereo, power tools, game consoles etc….
One word defines you: Hypocrite”

Absolutely that’s mostly what you’ll find. American consumers most likely like you have made it IMPOSSIBLE to buy American anymore. So if I were to have only american made products in my home, most of it would have to be 20 years or more old and most. You’ll just have to trust me though that I have been a huge label reader since the early 80’s when I saw the Japanese eroding our industrial base.

Case in point, I tried to buy a new drill press for my company recently and wanted to buy an American made one. The only one I could find was made by Clausing and it cost $2200. A comparible Jet cost about $500. No problem, I went to order the Clausing and the salesman told me that they had just moved production to China and that I would be better off buying something else!! Sad state of affairs. I am far from a hypocrite. I put my money where my mouth is all the time at greater expense when I’m actually able to. American cars and trucks have been pretty much one of the last things that I buy that I can still buy American and I have, but soon that option too will be gone.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

@DaV8or 96

It’s a losing battle I know. My cars are Ford Explorer and a Saturn. I recently had to replace the master console switch for the power windows in my Ford. I pulled the module out and there was a sticker on it labeled “Made in Mexico”. I though, well so much for buying american. So I ordered the new part, it came in, on it the label read the same thing “Made in Mexico”. WTF?

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Jason Acerman Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:21 pm

#85 Old man:

It did happen to someone I care about: me. In 2004 I lost my job of 12 years after it was outsourced to India. I switched gears, made a complete career change, moved my family, and now we are doing better than ever. I could have complained about my dying industry and why it happened or take action. I chose action.

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DaveP Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Statik:

Hope your son feels better soon. I think my daughter had something like that a few weeks ago. Took a while to get better, but didn’t get worse.

Meanwhile, looks like the Canadians are coming through with some money (C$ 3.5 billion)!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081216/wl_canada_nm/canada_us_ontario_report;_ylt=AsXaoiG4vcMR4l7CMTPy1sCs0NUE

Look for closings of Mexican plants, then… American money will buy, er, preference, for American plants to stay open, Canadian money will buy preference for Canadian plants and so that leaves the Mexicans out in the cold until the loans are repaid.

And I still think GM should push for some money from the Swedes!
Either that or start shoving a free Saab inside every Hummer purchase and see if that helps sales, any. Probably won’t but it’s kind of a funny mental picture.

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jabroni Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

Whether or not you think The F3DM is safe, AND
Whether or not you think its batteries will last, AND
Whether or not you like to buy products from China really doesn’t matter.

What matters is that we now have the World’s FIRST mass produced PHEV. This is huge. This is the kind of car we all want.

Also, BYD will also be introducing the F6DM, which is more like a Toyota Camry in size and shape…

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old man Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

#98 Jason

I am pleased that you landed on your feet. But keep this in mind, getting a job 4 years ago was a lot easier than it is now and the more manufacturing we lose the harder it will get.

My worry is not for me as I have been retired for several years. I worry about the young people with families that are already finding the american dream hard to reach.

My dream for the Volt and other E-REV and BEV cars is for their future without oil companys grabbing every dime they make.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

The Chinese will sell EV and EREV, but there will still be only one Chevy Volt. Is the $10,000 difference in price enough to make American’s sell out?

GM will be able to sell all the Volt they can produce. The best news right now would be for GM to announce that the Volt will be in showrooms by August of 2009. And that GM will produce “as many as they can sell”.

The incoming administration has listed several ambitious plans. Obama is more of an organizer than a doer. And, as we can see, he is assembling a good team around him.

The thrust toward economic recovery and stability will in effect be a wave of optimism. And it may peak during the summer of 2009. Will the public release the now pent up car buying energy in the last half of 09′.

Time for test drives and deposits? Don’t miss this one GM.

=D~

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm

#91 Statik says “Scary when your child starts hitting mid 100s on the fever and is constantly hacking”

Sorry to hear about the ER visits. It is scary but, assuming you mean 105 when you say mid 100s and not 150, kids are very resilient. They spike fevers, and 99.99% of the time it’s just the crud, which they can bounce back from the next day. If we had a fever like that we’d take at least a week to be able to walk, assuming we survived. But knowing that doesn’t make it any easier.

As for getting sick in place of your child, all I can say is “Ha”. Once they start going to school they turn into human petri dishes, bringing home every respiratory disease there is. The only good thing is that exposure to all the stuff is good training for their immunological systems.

Hope he gets better soon. I’m sure he will.

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DaveP Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

#96 DaV8or

While a lot of the “old markets” are gone from the US (try and buy a US brand TV, for example. You can’t.) there’s some up and coming industries that are looking pretty good for the US if we pay attention. Case in point, I have $50k worth of US made solar panels on my roof. Granted there’s Japanese and Chinese panels as well, but it’s at least a competition there. You have some choices. My inverters are US made, too, come to think of it.

And buying American made energy producing products is good for the US on several levels.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Interesting aticle on BYD. Scroll down to the section “Workers live on campus”

Sure they don’t get paid a lot but they get free dorm living and in their lifestyle, it’s like living in the suburbs here.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/11/kulongoski_lobbies_to_bring_ch.html

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

I hope your son is better Statik.

Perhaps you can shine some light on what happened today in the market. We have the lowest number of housing starts since they have been keeping records, The Fed had dropped rates to zero which says to me they are against the wall. There is nothing left but to print money. Paulson’s old company lost a couple of billion first loss ever. What happens … the market goes up a couple hundred points and Goldman Sachs leaps up. This seems backwards to me. Is this the hedge funds at work (my current boogy men)?

CaptJackSparrow – the dorms are present at a lot of the Chineese factories. They are enticing the farmer’s kids to come to work and pay for everything so what they earn they can either take home or they can save tward a future. I have some pictures from a electric motor factory and the dorms are really nice. Four rooms to a bathroom and very new. They have game rooms and video rooms a cafeteria, must be like heaven to the farm kids.

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ardan Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

I can’t believe the faith many posts have in Obama “the messiah”///// He has never held a real job, he went to elite schools his entire life on government grants and has ZERO business experience… Also he sold his soul to the Unions (like the UAW) and they will expect payback……

America has lost it’s mind and is doomed to failure…. Eco above got everything wrong, everything Obama tries to socialize will get worse and worse…..

Into the wilderness we go……….This is a sad time for America….

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Paul-R Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

Spin (#4), thanks for the link on the Brazil-Ford plant … it was not only very interesting but also (according to most Honda/Toyota owners, at least) completely impossible.

So does anyone know what’s preventing Ford (or GM or Chrysler) from building such a plant in one of the right-to-work states of the USA (instead of Brazil)? I thought that in a right-to-work state, they could by-pass the UAW, yet the video specifically mentioned the UAW.

Is it because of the UAW? Higher US taxes? Higher US wages? Extra US government regulations? Something else?

Thanks.

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Joe OBrien Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Where do I sign, I’ll buy one for $22k. That would all but reduce my oil dependence to almost nothing.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:23 pm

@ardan 107

Don’t forget to mention Obama has relative’s (Aunt) here illegally and he can’t pass Federal Security background checks because of his past affiliations.

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RB Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:32 pm

#62 N Riley says “I am still of the opinion GM needs to build an all electric (BEV) compact car as soon as possible. ”
=======================================

I share your opinion. It would be a much less satisfactory car, but a much simpler one. Having it would test the market, develop battery suppliers, and allow the technical improvement of many electrically powered accessories. It is “General” Motors, not “Specialty” Motors, and it has too many products that are almost the same. A little variety on electric would be a good idea, IMHO.

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

#106 Len says “What happens … the market goes up a couple hundred points and Goldman Sachs leaps up. This seems backwards to me.”

The rate “cut” was meaningless. It simply ratified the existing rate. By the same token, Goldman Sachs earnings were going to be bad. They were a bit worse than expected. No big deal.

The big news was the Fed is buying financial assets. This puts a floor under the price of those assets, boosting the balance sheets of all the financial firms, like Goldman, that hold those assets. Consequently their share price goes up.

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Len Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

DonC – The big news was the Fed is buying financial assets.

ahhh… Wasn’t that what TARP was supposed to do in the first place, before Paulson decided to give money to banks that didn’t want it, and to AIG so they could throw parties and give out bonuses? He is out of TARP money, I wonder what he is buying assets with?

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RB Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:00 pm

WSJ notes, regarding aid to auto firms “Two people familiar with the situation said the government is also considering requiring any auto makers seeking aid to file for bankruptcy” The article says what the administration is trying to avoid is a “disorderly bankruptcy”.

The article says it is only one of the plans being considered, not a decision.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

@RB

I said it before….
File bankrupt, get rid of UAW then get the loan.

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

#110 says “Don’t forget to mention Obama has relative’s (Aunt) here illegally and he can’t pass Federal Security background checks because of his past affiliations.”

Why continue peddling the koolaid? The election is over.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

alright, alright….

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Paul-R Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Ardan (#107), if you live here in Illinois you can’t question that Obama is … in fact … the Messiah. And thanks to the recent Gov Blago scandal, the rest of the country should now realize it too. Let me explain…

Chicago politics is a cesspool of corruption and greed. The level of corruption here is truly amazing. It’s so bad, that Blago doesn’t even think selling Obama’s senate seat for personal gain was wrong. That’s because greed and blackmail and extortion and bribes are the normal way of doing political business in Illinois. And now that Blago has been busted, every other political crook is in a frenzy to impeach Blago before he can burn them on his way down. So with that understanding of Chicago politics, ask yourself…

How did the only honest man in the Chicago political sewer, despite having little experience and a weird name, manage to skyrocket to the Senate in record time and then get elected president while holding the media and a majority of the world’s people in the palm of his hand like a rock star?

Intelligence and charisma only go so far. It was clearly an act of GOD.

Either that, or its because Obama is the Superman of Chicago corruption, so much better at corruption than everyone else that absolutely nothing can hurt him. But that seems slightly less likely.

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statik Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

#106 Len

I hope your son is better Statik.

Perhaps you can shine some light on what happened today in the market. We have the lowest number of housing starts since they have been keeping records, The Fed had dropped rates to zero which says to me they are against the wall. There is nothing left but to print money. Paulson’s old company lost a couple of billion first loss ever. What happens … the market goes up a couple hundred points and Goldman Sachs leaps up. This seems backwards to me. Is this the hedge funds at work (my current boogy men)?
—————-
#112 DonC

The rate “cut” was meaningless. It simply ratified the existing rate. By the same token, Goldman Sachs earnings were going to be bad. They were a bit worse than expected. No big deal.

The big news was the Fed is buying financial assets. This puts a floor under the price of those assets, boosting the balance sheets of all the financial firms, like Goldman, that hold those assets. Consequently their share price goes up.
=======================
=======================
What Don said, lol.

The market deserved to rally on this news today, even with the housing numbers.

The issue now is going forward. The Fed basically shot off all its ammo, now we have to see where that leads us. You are right that when the rates get to zero (they practically were anyway…trading around .39 before this), it is time to start the printing presses…which is not a good scene.

The Goldman numbers today where actually about a buck worse than expectations, but not the total disaster that some thought it could be, so 6 of one–half dozen of another. In the end, that was reason for cheer.

Tomorrow is the issue for Goldman. Today the trade was on relief, tomorrow is worry…just how exactly does Goldman turn it around and make money now they are a bank holding company?

As for the market overall, if this was indeed ‘the bottom’, the fed nailed it perfectly, and gave the market exactly what it wanted…both guns blazing. If she loses her feet here…it could be a disaster.

I am smart enough to know, that I am not smart enough to know, lol.

One thing I do think though, is the next 3-6 weeks will likely give us direction for the rest of ‘09. Once this bailout thing is worked out, we can get back to doing the math on market dynamics…and not gov’t intervention dynamics.

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RichardG Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Len, #113

The TARP money is totally separate from the Federal Reserve operations. The Fed’s work in the market place makes TARP look like chump change. The Fed has spent almost $4 TRILLION this year. Much of it is on loan or in exchange for securities that will, hopefully, have some value someday. The Fed’s work behind the scenes has actually saved the day and prevented daily collapses of banks and insurance companies. One area not getting much media attention (deliberately) is insurance. A few weeks ago most major (non-life) insurance companies were on the brink of collapse. When the Fed announced that it would start buying asset backed securities, the visible beneficiaries were companies like Goldman and Morgan Stanley. Actually, the biggest crisis averted was saving the insurance companies.

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Jackson Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:24 pm

We lost, Ardan. The time for talking is past. We have moved on to the demonstration phase. Wait for all that stuff to happen. If it does, then you can wail. And you’d better wail loud, because it’ll mean that we are all screwed, and there will be a whole lot of it going on.

I’m for giving the kid a chance. The demonstration phase is for conservatives, too. It is possible that we got it wrong … I’m willing to accept that possibility and watch what happens.

Especially since I don’t have any choice.

I think we may find that at best, the different approaches reflected in the last election are perfect under different conditions, and that conditions have actually changed over a decade and a half.

At worst, we may find that they are all Politicians first, party second, and country last; and it really doesn’t matter who is sitting on top of the dung heap: it will end up smelling just as bad.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

$145 per barrel oil pricing.

Once Big Oil was aware of what is possible, they won’t be content with a sub-$80 per barrel oil price. And now that the Government has a good taste of the power associated with market manipulation, they won’t be backing off either.

Just a couple of days ago we had talked about market direction. And pointed out the obvious reasons for a ‘future decline’. Yet, the market continued higher, even on bad news. We now know why. The Federal Reserve had tipped off their friends. And once again left the public in the cold darkness.

The Federal Reserve can play this game because they have the power to do so. What they may be underestimating is the psychological effect this has on the public. Does the Federal Reserve really want the man on the street to be increasingly distrusting of them? Is the Federal Reserve beyond the point of caring?

When the market climbs too high (on manipulated over stimulation) will a disaster be orchestrated to lower it? If so, how many days notice with their friends get? And how much more public 401k will evaporate?

This entire market manipulation game is pathetic. Let the prices of companies move to a natural equilibrium within a free system of trading. If a company earns high profit on robust sales and high quality products the stock will rise. If there is corruption within a company, let them fall and go extinct.

The average financial center secretary earns over $150,000 a year. And don’t forget the bonuses, spa treatments, and golf resort weekends. Anyone for Starbucks?

=D~

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abdula mulah Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

Ah, ah, ah. That just proves what I have said before.

Don’t use the Volt is a reason to bailout GM. I can tell you other can companies will blow away the Volt in no time.

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ardan Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 8:35 pm

118. Paul-R says “if you live here in Illinois you can’t question that Obama is … in fact … the Messiah.”

Thanks Paul-R for helping me understand the Illinois viewpoint, I haven’t ever been so you insight is a great help. I can better understand now……..

I really hope I am wrong, I really do……..Heck, I live here to……

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Edwin Mang Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:11 pm

I think we started something and if right GM will be competive by mid 2009 . As they have some thing the ohers do not have .
DOE working with them and some extras in the package that only a very few have seem .

God Bless
MERRY CHRISTMAS

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GXT Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

I can’t believe that Harper is wasting my money bailing out the Big-Time-Incompetent 3. This is truly a pathetic waste of money in an attempt to buy votes.

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jbfalaska Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:48 pm

I’m still in on the GM Volt. No turning back. It’s a great car. China builds crap for cars. The typical car there is rated 1 star in a crash test. I guess they have enough people not to worry about that. We care.

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 9:59 pm

D LO #3

I largely agree with you but with one exception.

A gasoline tank filled with gas is also a bomb.
CNG and Hydrogen will be made as safe or safer than current standards today. But I don’t think CNG and Hydrogen are good solutions to our problems either.

An automotive gas tank is not a bomb.
With gasoline cars, deadly car fires happen, but except for ones deliberately set by people, they are extremely rare. That is because gasoline is a liquid at ambient temperature, and only the vapor is potentially flammable.

CNG and H2 are gasses, and all the CNG and H2 in the whole world is potentially flammable.

If you are trying to design a safe car using gaseous fuel, the laws of physics are against you. Perhaps the Obama administration can repeal these un-progressive laws?

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Morgan Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

In somewhat related news, since much on this site is related to electricity generation….Bussards Polywell equations jump a huge hurdle…

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/12/16/1718741.aspx

Congratulations on passing the double peer review EMC2, Dr. Nebel, and team.

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

With the constant design changes, waiting for the perfect battery and any other lame excuse to delay the so call “production”

A serious developement project would have used any current battery (lead acid, nicad, niMH ect) and continued developement. Then once all the bugs worked out, pull out your old battery and silp in your new miracle battery.

===========================
I had vowed to try to avoid nasty comments, but the above is the dumbest piece of armchair engineering I have seen on this site.

1. GM has focused on the Li Ion battery for quite some time now.
2. This is not an undergraduate ME project where if you get the car to go over 5 mph for over 1 minute you get an A. The car has to perform close to flawlessly in all conditions, with tens of thousands of miles between failures. To get the level of perfection required in the consumer automotive market, you have to use LI Ion batteries to develop an Li Ion car.

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koz Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Statik #119

“One thing I do think though, is the next 3-6 weeks will likely give us direction for the rest of ‘09. Once this bailout thing is worked out, we can get back to doing the math on market dynamics…and not gov’t intervention dynamics.”

I’m sure there is some accuracy to these statements. My concern is the degree of accuracy but I’m hoping they are very accurate. If we reach bottom or can see it in this timeframe then I agree the next 3-6 weeks will give us a good idea what to expect for ‘09. If not, then I don’t think we’ll know too much about the direction for the rest of the year. I hope we can also get back to market dynamics but I’m afraid the Automakers won’t be the last market intervention for the government in this down cycle. I guess some consolation is that the gun is getting pretty empty. The current administration won’t be leaving much left in it.

I think the market has capitulated to accepting 8% unemployment and poor economic performance throughout ‘09. Unfortunately, I think most believe this is almost exclusively the result of the financial meltdown. This is where my concern lies. The government has emptied its gun too soon and the problems are much deeper than simply the financial crisis. If it becomes apparent unemployment will go beyond 8%, there will be another significant downturn in the market. Actually, will all the fears about further mortgage fallout and other economic calamities, my biggest concern is the modern application chapter 11 bankruptcy. In normal times and mild recessions, Ch11 can be a healthy tool. When the financial pain is deeper and more pervasive as we appear to be heading toward, Ch11 could trip us into much worse difficulty.

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I have bought a lot of Chineese manufactured electric model airplane motors and a few pre built “Almost Ready to Fly” models. The quality is all over the place. There are companies you can buy from that consistantly have very high quality, others are garbage.

.

=====================================
Not a relevant comparison. The quality standards for toys are much lower than the quality standards for family transportation. How many of your toy planes have carried 4 passengers for 100,000 miles?

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

#60
CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

One of the big 2.55555 needs to come out with a commuter BEV. 60 mile range 7hrs to charge. Kind of like the Th!nk.

Seriously, if one or two mfgrs come out with a small commuter car BEV that’s affordable to the tune of $15K (bare bones, No Radio, No power windows, no power seats, no power door locks, etc…) I think it would sell.
___________________________________________

This post doesn’t really show much insight. Of course a BEV -60 which cost $15k would sell. So would a $20 laptop or a $15 two carat diamond. But you can look at the players in the market, and see what they are charging, and get a pretty good estimate of what it costs to produce BEVs.

Tesla sells a two seater BEV for $100k. Of course they could lower the price to $15k and sell more, but so what?

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

Chinese are the masters at producing products that last long enough to get use out of, yet not long enough to last beyond when the next model comes out.

Consumer Reports helped build the Honda Empire. I don’t see Consumer Reports or Car and Driver giving very good ratings to the first models from China. The Yugo/Prius crowd will try them and help with R&D on the first cheap China cars. The Volt will be on the road at least 3 years before the Chinese cars start getting decent ratings.

My Christmas wish is for GM to get the E-REV models on the road before the posers and wanna-bees hole shot them.

=D~

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:35 pm

Eco wrote

Gas returns to 4.00 a gallon, or 100,000 E-Revs hit the street.

They both cannot happen.
=============================================
100,000 E-REVS on the street would represent about 0.1% of the cars on the road. If we currently have 100,000,000 cars averaging 20 miles to the gallon, and we add 100,000 cars at 300 mpg to the mix, the fleet average becomes 19.998 mpg, not a big enough reduction to move the market. E-Revs might show some effect on oil prices when they achieve 10% market penetration, or 10 million cars.

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Tom Harwick Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

#
CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Interesting aticle on BYD. Scroll down to the section “Workers live on campus”

Sure they don’t get paid a lot but they get free dorm living and in their lifestyle, it’s like living in the suburbs here.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/11/kulongoski_lobbies_to_bring_ch.html
———————————————————————-
I would have thought a full time employed adult in a well organized society would be able to own his own home with his family, and not have to live in a dorm.

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 10:52 pm

#113 Len says “Wasn’t that what TARP was supposed to do in the first place”

TARP, which was a Treasury program, relieved pressure on the liability side of the balance sheet by injecting capital directly into the banks. The program the Fed announced today will work on the asset side of the balance sheet.

#119 statik says “The Fed basically shot off all its ammo”

Yes the rifle has no rounds left but today the Fed put down the rifle and started shooting the mortar. It still has all kinds of things it can do. In fact, it didn’t actually do anything today, it just announced an asset purchase program. What was impressive was the unity: the regional banks are on board and no dissenting opinions from other governors.

Basically it announced the presses will be running. Inflation will be back! Maybe we should all buy the stocks of paper companies — all those new Ron Paul bumper stickers. LOL

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DonC Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:03 pm

#119 statik says “just how exactly does Goldman turn it around and make money now they are a bank holding company?”

This one needed it’s own response, just because of all the bro-ha-ha about “wages.” I just heard that the average Goldman employee this year will make $365K, down 65% from last year. Let’s see, almost all of Goldman’s expense is salaries …..

Actually they’ll make plenty of money. Just not as much as they did. They are still very smart guys and gals and they will be able to do many or most of the same deals they did as an investment bank. In some ways though it’s sad to see investment banking as a business model go away.

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James E. Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

GM needs to do the following:

Buy the batteries from BYD
Drop the cost of the Volt to the mid 20’s
Pull the launch date into 2009
If the BYD hit the market first for 15k less then GM is done.

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DB Cooper Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:29 pm

136 Tom Harwick –
“I would have thought a full time employed adult in a well organized society would be able to own his own home with his family, and not have to live in a dorm.”

That’s just a little glimpse of our own future. Hell, there’s a bowl of rice and a roof over their heads… what’s not to like ?

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Arch Says:
December 16th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

You got to love it.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/dec2008/gb20081215_913780.htm?chan=autos_autos+–+lifestyle+subindex+page_top+stories

Take Care
Arch

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ccombs Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:04 am

As much as I would enjoy seeing OPEC grovel after oil becomes a commodity of secondary importance (*fingers crossed* that this will ocur in the near future), I shudder to think of what may happen when Russia and the Middle East lose their only real source of wealth. There could be catastrophic unrest and war. They may not be coming to the West begging for a handout, but rather taking one at the point of a gun. I really hope nations with oil-based economies wise up to their long-term predicament and start to develop technology/other industries (the KAUST in Saudi gives me some hope in this regard). Transitioning fully to alternative energy would be awesome, but I really hope we keep geopolitics in mind while doing so. This might consist of simply saying “heck with you” to OPEC, but perhaps we could be a bit more subtle and careful.

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Allan Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:27 am

I really don’t care who makes the PHEV I buy. I thought it would be GM, but they may fold or just not get it out before other companies.

I guess it was harder for GM to put this out than they thought. It’s tough when you crushed all your EV-1’s 8 years ago.

“The GM Impact: Car Crushers impacting our profits.”

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Ed M Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:38 am

ccombs #142

Saudi Arabia’s No 1 industry is oil, while their No 2 industry is dealing in 2nd hand goods. The power that countries like Venuzula wield will be short lived if oil becomes a less important commodity.

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mokahome Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 2:04 am

Before making quick assumptions about battery life and safety, it’s probably best to look at the actual facts.

The base currently has a 3 star ncap rating
http://www.chinacartimes.com/2008/02/08/c-ncap-smash-up-some-more-cars-and-tell-us-the-results/

To take it straight from the horse’s mouth, they will have 4 STAR safety for small cars, and 5 STAR safety for large cars before even attempting to launch cars in Europe or the US.
The batteries currently have a estimated life of 7-10 years. How does that compare to say the Prius?
http://www.byd.com/news/newsmore.asp?id=49&show=media

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Unni Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 2:52 am

Was watching “Who killed electric car”.

Now i don’t think GM only has a technology to build volt. The data shows Toyota Rava4 EV, Ford Ranger EV, Honda EV Plus,

Have a look on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_production_electric_vehicles

Now other than generator, whatz new with Volt and why they expect it to be first because everybody else can come back with adding a generator and make PHEV from old cars production EVs.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 7:31 am

Wednesday December 17, 7:15 am ET

OPEC likely to cut oil production by 2 million barrels — with outside producers joining in

ORAN, Algeria (AP) — OPEC powerhouse Saudi Arabia said Wednesday the group will slash a record 2 million barrels from its daily production as of Jan. 1, while Russia and other OPEC outsiders announced their own cutbacks of hundreds of thousands of barrels from the market.

=D~

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statik Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 8:39 am

#138 DonC

#119 statik says “just how exactly does Goldman turn it around and make money now they are a bank holding company?”
—
This one needed it’s own response, just because of all the bro-ha-ha about “wages.” I just heard that the average Goldman employee this year will make $365K, down 65% from last year. Let’s see, almost all of Goldman’s expense is salaries …..

Actually they’ll make plenty of money. Just not as much as they did. They are still very smart guys and gals and they will be able to do many or most of the same deals they did as an investment bank. In some ways though it’s sad to see investment banking as a business model go away.
=======================
I too am confident that after ‘09 is done, and they get their house in order they will make money…and a good deal of it.

The problem is (at least in my opinion) valuating what that number will be…and in turn the value of the company. Just what exactly is the sweet-spot P/E for a entity like this in the ‘new world’? I don’t know.

/I should have expounded, I was typing my post quickly…I am surprised it wasn’t littered with spelling errors, lol

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Len Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 8:42 am

136 Tom Harwick -
“I would have thought a full time employed adult in a well organized society would be able to own his own home with his family, and not have to live in a dorm.”

Figure out what someone working for minimum wage makes and you will see they can’t afford a roof over their head, much less a home or family. For a lot of people over there, this is their first job.

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RB Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 8:52 am

136 Tom Harwick -
“I would have thought a full time employed adult in a well organized society would be able to own his own home with his family, and not have to live in a dorm.”
================================================

There are a couple of things to keep in mind. Living in close proximity is a natural human environment. We are pack animals. I live close to a university where one of its significant problems is getting students to live other than in the dorms (nobody wants too). It is not because of price — people want to be close to the other people they know.

A second is that the BYD situation is similar in some respects to the mill towns that existed around the USA (and especially here in NC) in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The housing that was a part of the mill town might seem like simple spaces to those of us today, but at the time it was considerably upscale from what was common. Over time many of the mill houses were sold to occupants, and in a number of communities those occupants’ descendants still live in those houses — they are communities that are close knit, attractive, and in some cases very high priced if you are able to find one available.

So one is well advised not to look down one’s nose. I imagine the BYD group see company-provided housing as a great perk of working there.

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noel park Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

#140 DB Cooper:

Too true to be funny my friend.

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Inst Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Actually, the BYD F3DM has a lifespan of 10,000 cycles. It’s far less than that of the Chevy Volt. Their trick is that they deep cycle their batteries, impacting the vehicle lifespan.

On the other hand, if you pay $22000 now and another $8000 later, the price point is much more affordable than say, a $40000 Volt, and by the time you have to replace the batteries, the battery lifespan might improve.

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Chevy Owner Says:
December 17th, 2008 at 3:59 pm

My fear is that the current state of the American auto industry will cause Chevy to delay the release of the Volt even further, thus allowing another company to come in and steal their thunder. The Volt is going to be a great car, I just hope it comes out before others like it do.

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S Baker Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

You know, most of the repsonses on here makes me shake my head. Typical Americans, you want the latest echnology at 50% of the cost of production and you want it now! If you Asian car loving fools would get a clue you would have figured that if it was that easy it would have been done long ago! I sure hope you fools that used your home equity like an ATM remember that next time you think you need the latest import. Oh, and one more thing, why are my American tax dollars subsidizing any foreign company? If you want a Toyota you should have to pay the real cost of a hybrid not a subsidized price!

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mokahome Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 11:11 pm

S Baker,
Free and fair trade and competition means that everyone should be on a level playing field. Similar to how it wouldn’t be fair for global exporters to receive unfair help from their governments, it wouldn’t be right for GM to receive unfair advantage. Intervention just distorts the realities of the marketplace.
While there will be many adversely affected, the failure of uncompetitive is actually good for everyone as the resources get reallocated to more useful purposes. To put is simply, if would be better for America to put its resources and workers into competitive companies.
While scant attention is paid, one of the greatest drivers behind the Chinese economy over the past decade has actually been the closure of uncompetitive state industries, putting tens of million people out of work and allowing for more efficient reallocation of resources and workers.

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mokahome Says:
December 18th, 2008 at 11:18 pm

While it’s still early days and I have my doubts. BYD has an R&D team of 8000 working on the project.
Similar to how Honda was an engine/engineering company when it launched into the car market. BYD is a battery/technology company launching into the car market

136 Tom Harwick -
“I would have thought a full time employed adult in a well organized society would be able to own his own home with his family, and not have to live in a dorm.”
This is very much the norm in China and other developing countries for that matter, a compromise between workers and management if you will. Due to more efficient lodging, workers get to take more home, while companies save money.

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kent beuchert Says:
December 20th, 2008 at 11:18 am

I’ve heard from another reliable source that the BYD IS going on sale and that the retail price will be the equivalent of $21,900, or about half the price of the Volt. If anyone thinks that GM can compete with its high labor costs, they are living in a dream world. I predict that within 5 years, the Japanese and even the Korean automakers will be struggling to be price competitive. The billions being sent to the automakers, in the forlorn hope that “restructuring” (which GM has been doing for the past 15 years) will yield a competitive automaker, are gone forever, mostly down the mouth of the UAW members, gobbled up while they sit at home collecting 95% of their wages in return for their destruction of their industry. Gettlefinger deserves nothing less than public ridicule and humiliation and the UAW a big class action lawsuit on behalf of the hundreds of millions of American consumers defrauded over the past 50 years. The charges: price fixing of labor rates, restraint of free trade, destruction of a free labor market, extortion, monopolistic behavior punishable under existing anti-trust laws, which have strangely never been applied to the biggest monopolies ever created. etc. etc. May Gettlefinger and his high paid cronies rot
in hell.

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