It is the 11th hour for GM and our beloved Volt. It may be only a matter of days before GM can no longer pay its bills and have to stop operations.
Democrats and the White House earlier achieved an accord on a bill to grant GM $8 billion, and Chrysler $4 billion. The so called Auto Industry Financing and Restructuring Act, can be read here.
The new draft of the bill removed the legislation requiring automakers to accept greenhouse gas emissions standards set by individual states like California.
It continued to include the appointment of a car czar who would oversee the restructuring process, offer taxpayer protection in the form of stock warrants in the companies valued at 20% of the loan amount, and allow the loans to be recalled if the automaker doesn’t not reach its restructuring milestones.
Finally after arriving to the floor on Wednesday night, at 8:55 PM EST, the House of Representatives voted to pass the legislation. The vote was 237 to 170 in favor.
We are now one step closer to a GM lifeline as President Bush has indicated he will sign it. The only barrier now remains some Senate Republicans and some Senate Democrats who remain opposed.
This is it, do or die time for GM, literally down to the wire in a remarkable and sad drama that has played out before us all.
It is now up to the men and women of the US Senate to pass this bipartisan legislation in an expeditious fashion so that we can move on and get back to watching our Volt and a future of oil independence flourish.
By getting our country and the world off of oil, the payback will be far greater.
You may also consider contacting the senior Republican on the Senate Finance Committee who still opposes the bill, Richard Shelby (R-Ala):
email: senator@shelby.senate.gov
phone: 202-224-5744
General Motors has issued the following response:
We thank the House and its leadership for their bipartisan vote to support America’s domestic automakers at this most critical time for the nation’s economy.
The House vote brings us closer to saving jobs and to creating a more competitive U.S. auto industry in order to maintain America’s economic vitality.
We encourage the Senate to act soon so that we can continue at full speed on the restructuring and advanced technologies plans that will form a stronger, more viable GM.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, December 10th, 2008 at 8:57 pm and is filed under Financial, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:01 pm)Final tally 237-170
Look for the tougher Senate vote to go friday after they rework it (yea…again) to make sure they get the votes, then back to the House to jam it through…again.
This vote was heavily down party lines, aprox 90% Dems voted for it, with only 20%ish from the Reps getting behind it. (I didn’t stick around for final, exact percentages…Criminal Minds is on now, lol).
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:03 pm)Boo.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:07 pm)Everybody say this after me — It’s not a bailiot it’s a loan that will be repaid. Great news for GM , Ford and Chrysler.
Boy I wish they held Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Citi Bank to the same carpet.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:07 pm)Awesome! The biggest question now is, do they have 60 votes (filibuster-proof), in the Senate…should be very interesting to watch the debate and posturing tomorrow and Friday…lol.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:10 pm)It won’t pass the Senate. Bankruptcy is next, this was not a bailout of or loan to GM, Chrysler, Ford or the autoworkers… its a bailout of the UAW… PERIOD! (28) straight periods of making their “number” and in (30) days, POOF! Shenanigans going on here.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:13 pm)I nominate Bob Lutz for Car Czar.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:14 pm)Great, I especially like the part they tacked on to the bill to give federal judges pay raises!
Something is rotten in this country and this bailout stinks. I would gladly give up my shot at owning a Volt to end taxpayer support of this failed heap of a company. There will be other EVs to buy people.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:22 pm)I am glad to see this happen. Everyone knocks on GM because they asked the government for a loan. How much money has the Japanese government given Toyota and Honda? We do not hear anything about that.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:22 pm)Thank goodness. It is so sad that we have to stoop to this now, but I don’t see any other way.
However…someone needs to put the hurt on Cerberus until it coughs up dough for Chrysler. Not that that will ever happen. Such a travesty.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:22 pm)What would happen if the Feds used $15B to make a 10% down payment towards the purchase of any American Made automobile for anybody that buys a new car in the next 2 months? Since citzens (i.e. Banks that have $700B to loan) would be paying the other 90%, It would get about $150B worth of cars moved and jumpstart the economy. No “bailout loan” required. Just get the car makers making cars and the dollars moving where dollars should move. Tax revenue would get cranked up too!
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:36 pm)# 6 I nominate Bob Lutz for Car Czar.
———————————————————–
do you know what congress wants the auto czar for ? its definitely NOT TO DESIGN A CAR !
bob lutz’s expertise is hardly what the auto czar requires !!! pls think before u post .
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:41 pm)Meanwhile, the battery testing goes on. Charge – discharge. All day, all night. Progress is being made.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:48 pm)what a bunch of crap.
are they really taking this money from a fund that would have helped people develop alternative energy vehicles?
please tell me i’ve been misinformed.
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:49 pm)# 1 statik tician
Look for the tougher Senate vote to go friday after they rework it (yea…again) to make sure they get the votes, then back to the House to jam it through …again.
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WHAT’S THIS ? another one of your genuine prediction huh , statik ? you can do better than this !!
here’s another nugget of wisdom from statik. below :
This vote was heavily down party lines, aprox 90% Dems voted for it, with only 20%ish from the Reps getting behind it.
———————————————————-
tell us something new pls. C Span and Bloomberg are way ahead of you !!!
Dec 10th, 2008 (9:52 pm)hi Ron #10,
“What would happen if the Feds used $15B to make a 10% down payment towards the purchase of any American Made automobile for anybody that buys a new car in the next 2 months?”
____________________________
Another good idea. For some reason politicians can’t think out of the box like John Q. Public can.
Tax pump gas up to an even $2 a gallon. Give 15% of the gains to the State for implementing the program, 60% to the short term down payment fund Ron suggests, and 25% for the Big 3 to pay on bills incurred through suppliers.
Please don’t gripe about the $4 more per tankful, it’s well worth saving the value of the dollar. And saving the (nutty) TARP pool.
Look at the reverse. We will have the price of a barrel of oil shoot back up to $80. Then you won’t have a choice but to pay the OPEC providers $10 more per tankful. Please open your eyes before it’s too late.
Is everybody happy?
=D~
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:01 pm)was america allways this filthy? judges tacking on pay raises to this bill? filthy maggotts, and why didn’t AIG have to grovel for 700 bil, why did the paulson goon do all their dirty work ? FACE IT PEOPLE, this is a hellbound train, it’s beyond the volt, or the kenyan, there is no honor left anywhere……we are fullfilling a prophesy
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:03 pm)James E:
Who cares what Japanese government gives their car companies? I don’t pay taxes in Japan. I pay taxes in America. And I don’t want my tax money going to ANY company. Period.
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:12 pm)16 Carlo:
In a word yes…from the very beginning. The horse trading done to get the Constitution ratified boggles the mind.
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:32 pm)….It continued to include the appointment of a car czar…
…one step closer to a GM lifeline as President Bush has indicated he will sign it…
__________________
Just restructure GM now. Get the leaching Union off their back. This bailout is about saving the Union so they can remain to squeeze the TARP tax bailout money from what’s left of a dieing GM.
++++++++
Is Big Oil so upset with GM moving away from wasteful SUV’s and toward fuel efficiency that they designed this to be entertained by a slow GM death? We know from recent history that Big Oil could care less about the pain American’s feel when the gas pump hovers around $3.50 a gallon.
What else can all this be about? Just restructure and move on.
=D~
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:32 pm)The U.S. government should have taken that money and bought the entire company for that money and turned it around by dropping half the models and most especially the Hummer and Cadillac and all of the gas guzzler high horsepower garbage still in production. It should have been run like a war footing as it is indeed a war footing. Unless the US gets off Middle Eastern Oil and can live on its own production and that of its friends up here in Canada, it will be under their Sword of Damocles. The US must gain independence of these folks and turn around its balance of payments which would be great for the entire North American economy. A real free trade zone extending well beyond what is present will make economies of scale in selling of cars such as the interesting concept, Volt, less expensive to produce and considering that Canadians pay double right now what Americans pay for fuel, that vehicle will be a best seller on this side of the border to be sure. I for one will buy one if it happens and I am in the market for a vehicle but they will have to get it down to an economy car price as a 40K car is not in my future and would not make economic sense even at the price of Canadian fuel which last year hit 1.50 a litre ( 3.8 to a U.S. gallon) and is now at .70/lite. Do the math and one can see that a 40K car will take a long time to amortise to regain its initial cost against a less expensive traditional fueled car or for that matter a hybrid especially with the new generation coming out this Spring. I wish the Volt good sailing but might I suggest that the people who ran the company into the ground be sent on their way and get some new blood to run the show. Think Apple Computer which rose from the ashes into a champion due to great leadership ideas and the enthusiasm of their labour. GM has the union skills to do it if they were given good blueprints to build a car with. The Volt is the first step, I hope, for a revitalization of that company but with the old guys running the show, I worry…as should you.
Dec 10th, 2008 (10:34 pm)As soon as the bill is sufficiently laden with pork to win the votes of a sufficient number of crooks in Washington, it will pass. And the American people, as usual, will be getting the shaft.
Best regards,
D’Artagnon
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:03 pm)#15 Dave K for auto Czar =D~
I’m converting all assets to cash if this ridiculous bill fails. When you contact your senate representatives, be sure to ask them to support this bill with one more item, $1 salary for all House and Senate reps. With $10 trillion in debt what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander or in this case, the whole gaggle.
P.S. Ask you senator to fly commercial coach, too, since “everyone is taking a haircut” and making a shared sacrifice.
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:33 pm)Okay in general principle I’m against this type of load from the government. It sets a bad principle. However in this particular case I think it’s warranted. The car companies have in fact made the changes they needed to be competitive. They did get the give backs starting soon from the UAW. They have tremendously improved the quality of their cars in the last 4-5 years. This had been very tough. Both GM and Chrysler have extended range EV about to come out. Gas WILL rise up again and sooner rather than later. I will by a GM, Ford, or Chrysler in my next purchase. I’m waiting for the Volt. If I have to wait too long I will buy a Cruze or maybe a Malibu or Ford Fusion. I bought my last vehicle in 2002, a Dodge Dakota and with no problems I don’t need a new car until the Volt comes out.
I believe GM and Chrysler will get their act together and will pay back the load with interest. If we save the Auto industry it will pay big dividends in future. We can’t afford to lose this technology. The auto industry was not responsible for the spike in gas prices 2006-7. The Auto Industry was NOT responsible for the meltdown of the economy and the credit crunch. If not for these twin problems, I don’t think the industry would have had the problems that they’ve had. If not for these problems, I think the auto industry could have made the recovery with Government assistance.
But most of all the Federal Government has been a big part of the problem with the auto industry. They are one of the major reasons that the car companies are in trouble. If the car companies cannot make it by 2010-11, then I think they should go the Chapter 11 route. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
And let’s not make a habbit of this type of government assistance.
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:37 pm)#14 Coach why are you so negative on Statik
I’m sure by the way other post talk to Statik they all appreciate his information, he gives us a lot of items that none of us want to look up and IMHO is mostly correct, ask Tagamet, Noel Park, and many others what they think about Statik and I think they will all be positive, including his humor.
NO PLUG NO SALE, LJGTVWOTR, (my house)=D~~~~~(my volt
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:37 pm)#1 Statik – “Look for the tougher Senate vote to go friday after they rework it (yea…again) to make sure they get the votes, then back to the House to jam it through…again.”
It could go to conference, which could be a huge PITA.
#18 Morgan – “The horse trading done to get the Constitution ratified boggles the mind.”
You mean like slaves being 3/5ths of a person and small states getting two senators just like the large states. Yeah, you have a good point. LOL
#19 Dave K. – “Get the leaching Union off their back.”
Turns out that the “leaching (sic) Union” is not GM’s problem. Its problem is quality and design. Here is an absolutely great article on labor costs and how those costs affect GM vis-a-vis the transplants. Long on facts and short on opinion, it’s an interesting and refreshing read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?em
Bottom line: The labor differential is $800/vehicle but GM has to add an additional price cut of $1700 to make up for inferior quality and design.
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:54 pm)Jonas Says:
James E:
Who cares what Japanese government gives their car companies? I don’t pay taxes in Japan. I pay taxes in America. And I don’t want my tax money going to ANY company. Period.
======================================================
You better care. If foreign governments support their industry and ours are allowed to fail, then all of the wealth creation from manufacturing will move outside our borders. This means higher taxes in the long run because our country will slowly slide into poverty. If not in the next 10 years, then when your kids are tax payers, or your grand kids. We have a hell of a deficit to pay off, or at least attempt to minimize. If $15 billion add $150 billion to the tax roles in the next three years, then that is a hell of a bargin. You solution is penny wise and dollar stupid.
And remember, this money will get paid back with interest.
Nobody likes this idea, but because congress and the president decided to pick winners and losers in this economy by spending $700 billion on companies that just spread wealth around, they should pick manufacturer as winners also. The Big 3 employ 300,000 people directly, how many people do these finanical companies employee? I have never seen the number.
You should ask will this work, and can the government extract itself from the company when the money is paid off. Welll there are 2 examples in the past where they supported a key manufacturer during a troubled economic times. The first time was Chrysler in 1978, and the second company was Lockheed in the early 1970′s. Lockheed is now the largest defense contracted in the world, and Chrysler recovered very well until Damiler-Benz gutted the company.
Dec 10th, 2008 (11:58 pm)#22 D Lo says “I’m converting all assets to cash if this ridiculous bill fails.
————————————————-
I say – Cash? CASH? By the time the honorable Bozos in Congress finish printing money, you’ll need a hundred dollar bill to buy a loaf of bread. In my not so humble opinion, you might want to buy silver or gold (if you can afford it).
Precious metals keep their value based on their own worth, not what the gov’t promises. I always keep some of my money in gold in case I have to flee the country, after Obama begins running America like Mugabee does in Africa, or worse, changes America to an all Muslim nation. (Yeah I know it’s a longshot, but it could happen – and I like pork, couldn’t find Mecca WITH a map, and I look terrible with a beard, so Islam’s not my thing).
—————————————————–
Almost forgot – If the UAW is so keen on protecting auto worker’s health care and retirement benefits, let the UAW take over the auto worker’s health care and retirement benefits. Then, the UAW would have something useful to do for a change, and free GM of the staggeringly high costs of both plans. When health care prices spike, the union would have the pleasure of passing on the price increases, and they couldn’t jack up the price of new cars to pay for the price increases.
If the UAW doesn’t care for that proposal, then it’s Chapter 11 time. The UAW says they might cut costs in 2011 – maybe. I have a better deal – shut yer mouths, pony up for the worker’s benefits, or you’re out. All the way out. Forever.
NO BAILOUT OF THE UAW !
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:01 am)#14 coach said,
# 1 statik tician
Look for the tougher Senate vote to go friday after they rework it (yea…again) to make sure they get the votes, then back to the House to jam it through …again.
——————————————————-
WHAT’S THIS ? another one of your genuine prediction huh , statik ? you can do better than this !!
here’s another nugget of wisdom from statik. below :
This vote was heavily down party lines, aprox 90% Dems voted for it, with only 20%ish from the Reps getting behind it.
———————————————————-
tell us something new pls. C Span and Bloomberg are way ahead of you !!!
=====================================
=====================================
I’m just passing along a little info that did not happen to be in the thread. There is no prediction there, just my opinion.
You attacked me twice in the last thread today (the first time before I even made a post) and now in this one…totally unprovoked. If you are hoping for a reaction out of me, you will not get it. I can also say your over the top reactions only work to undermine any position you have, whether it be accurate or not.
You are fighting against the air here, I’m not going to retaliate. I don’t come here to fight with internet battles. I come to interact with the community, people I’ve grown to know and respect, hopefully learn something and gain new perspective….thats it.
Obviously there is something about me that bothers you, and I can understand being frustrated at times and in situations like this if you feel passionately about something, hopefully you have it all worked out now.
/I’ll catch you in the next thread, peace
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:10 am)#22 D Lo said,
“I’m converting all assets to cash if this ridiculous bill fails.”
==============================
Just stay away from parking it in the US 3 month T-Bill, you pay the government to hold your money now.
(=
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:26 am)Statik,
making new friends huh?
what kind of pop do you expect from this? think it’ll get over $6?
JonP.
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:45 am)D Lo #22 “P.S. Ask you senator to fly commercial coach, too, since “everyone is taking a haircut” and making a shared sacrifice”
Shouldn’t they be walking? 10 trillion and counting… and I would not consider converting assets to cash, its probably better to stay as assets. when reality bites and the world wakes up, US dollars wont be worth the paper its printed on.
The US debt is out of control, and its not going to get any better any time soon. In fact, US debt is growing ever faster. Einstein was right, compound interest IS the most powerful force in the universe!
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:48 am)hi JonP #30,
Hey, I like Statik. And BTW, my 10 oz energy drink just went from 89 cents to $1.49 at Albertson’s. I left it on the shelf and walked away.
Just keeping working overtime when it’s offered.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:51 am)Oil prices edge up in Asia ahead of OPEC meeting
Wednesday December 10, 11:51 pm ET
AP: Oil prices edge up in Asia as investors await news on size of expected OPEC output cut
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) — Oil prices edged slightly higher Thursday in Asia with investors hoping for a significant OPEC production cut next week to boost the market.
Many analysts expect production cuts of as much as 2 million barrels a day, which would match the combined reductions of two previous output cuts earlier this year.
________________________
This is true to form. The bailout may not pass so let’s go back to plan A.
Put your helmets on and fasten your seatbelts.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:46 am)HEY! Anybody wants to get at Statik has to go through me first! (Did they run away yet?).
Statik is one of the value added pillars of this site. At a minimum, he’s a cesspool of good information (g). I’m glad to see that he didn’t “bite” on the insult bait(s), but I’d have expected nothing less.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:53 am)That study was so flawed
6 out of 10 came from 3000 people vote.
Also all the foreign governments are loaning there car companies money.
Its a sad day in American when we cant support our own people.
Really sad
Oh and that ass Republican who has honda and toyota plants in his state was against it.
We build apple computers in China. Thats does not make apple a Chinese company.
Profits research and engineering are done in CA
Wake up people
The Foreign car companies have brain washed everyone. Mike more went though congress and saw lots driving foreign cars. When I heard that I know our government is total corrupt getting kickbacks from Toyota to make sure it wont pass.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:11 am)Funny how they lend / give money to the financial houses that caused this collapse, but can’t find money to loan to “true bred americans” who work in the last manufacturing industry the usa has really got.
It’s really sad.
A bit like the republicans not likeing all – the better fuel economy of california standards for the good of the country. It makes you wonder if they are truely americans or they have a secret adgenda.
Have a look at “project better place” it’s funny about the first country going electric plug in and in the USA with the same family / money ties are pushing oil …… The plot / sorry saga continues ….. Americans wake up & speakup it’s a disgrace.
PS GM has got plenty of energy efficient cars, just mandate it!
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:04 am)Buy silver.. cheap right now and safe.
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:17 am)Interesting opinion piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10friedman.html?em
Better Place has a project to sell mobility miles for half the price we currently pay to get from point A to B. Based in Palo Alto, they have deals with several countries, SF Bay area, and are actually invited to participate in Japan. You buy the car and pay for the mobility miles (cell phone model anyone?) GM was asked to participate and turned them down.
This looks like capitalism at work.
Giving any of the old style car companies money may just be throwing it away.
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:45 am)For me if GM had not been well on the way with developing the Volt what story could they have told to Congress as a justification for saving the company?
In short the Volt has probably already partially saved GM in the short term, now its up to them to bust a gut to get it into production to save it in the long term.
Go Volt, go Michigan, go GM, go USA, go planet.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:06 am)Loan….loan that will get repaid IF they don’t fail. and remember this is only a short term fix…..they WILL be back asking for more money by June 09….
Again. let commercial banks loan the money…why should we as taxpayers bear the burden. how many small business’ failed in the last few years as a result of the tanking economy. I don’t see government bailing them out, and small business employee nearly 25% of the US workforce…
Just government rewarding poor performance….YET AGAIN…
other companies get it…..you just have to live in Europe to get the really cool cars…
http://www.modeczev.com/
http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/ourranges.asp
http://venturebeat.com/2008/01/10/27-electric-cars-companies-ready-to-take-over-the-road/
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:34 am)#13 Campy Says: “what a bunch of crap. are they really taking this money from a fund that would have helped people develop alternative energy vehicles? please tell me i’ve been misinformed.”
————————————————————————————-
Yes, they are taking the money from the alternative energy vehicle fund. President Bush said he wouldn’t sign it any other way. But it looks like Obama said he would replenish this . Nancy Pelosi only dropped her opposition to using this fund after speaking with Obama, and she basically said the fund will be replenished.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:37 am)Why does no one ask where the banks are? Why did we give them hundreds of billions of dollars if not to make loans to keep the economy going. If they are now going to ‘play it safe’ (after playing it very unsafe and getting us into this mess) then what was the point of shoring up their capital with public money?
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:38 am)Statik, #28
Your reaction to Coach #14 is very kind.
Like some others here, he would rather attack you than have an honest debate. My response would have been much harsher than yours if his comments were directed at me. There is one person here that was attacking you a lot. I stopped reading his comments a few months ago. I don’t know what you did to Coach. I suspect he is a GM or Union person and simply doesn’t like it when you are right…..just like the other guy I no longer read.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:43 am)#19 Dave K. =D~ Says: “Is Big Oil so upset with GM moving away from wasteful SUV’s and toward fuel efficiency that they designed this to be entertained by a slow GM death? ”
————————————————————————————–
I believe 2 things are at work here:
1) The oil lobby is still strong in the senate, and they’re punishing GM for the Volt.
2) Toyota and Honda make cars in the U.S., particularly in southern states. Senators from these southern states are most against the bailout loans.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:46 am)They are cronies of Paulson. The ones he likes get money they ones he don’t … If you haven’t figured it out, this government runs on cronieism. You don’t have to be qualified, just a cronie. The Bush regime took it to the extreme, even science can be rewritten by a cronie to bring it in line with the party line. Part of the bailout was supposed to be oversight. I guess it is just an oversight that Paulson hasn’t quite gotten to that yet. Meanwhile his buddies are throwing lavish partys, giving themselves big bonuses, investing in Chinese and other international banks, but not lending money. It is too risky, they don’t know how much more bad paper they have (and don’t really want to know).
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:01 am)Statik #28
Tag # 34
Raschiid #43
Thanks a lot all of you for supporting what I think is the philosophy of this blog.
We may dissent on opinions, we may interpret facts very differently from each other, we may freely express our views and confront them with those of others. This is invaluable, and as I wrote in a former post, is only possible in democracies.
But we must respect each others as Statik has done and avoid to enter the game of rude or uneducated people. This is the condition to keep the credibility of this blog (which is high).
Tanks Statik, thanks Tag and Raschiid,
JC NPNS
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:06 am)So how much cash are we talking here?
From the article, I counted $12 billion. Is that the right figure?
I thought they were pushing for like $35 billion.
Diminished exppectations.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:07 am)Hopefully Bush will be the better man in the situation and let Obama pick the Czar.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:08 am)What if Royal Dutch Shell bought GM today? Would all of those Volt fans saying ‘who cares, let ‘em fail’ feel any differently?
After all of the BS that has been packed into this loan (talk about predatory lending), I am now hoping GM passes up the offer and files Chapter 11. The consequences will be dire, but maybe then real change will happen in Washington. Seriously, I have a hard time imagining ‘representatives’ that are less representative of our population.
This just in: New funding proposal out of Chicago….
All Senate and House seats are to be sold to the highest bidder, and the funds to go to pay for more oil. When asked how, in the United States of America we could sell our democracy, pundits noted that our elections have been for sale for some time.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:15 am)Hey Statik… Lotto Numbers didn’t even hit one.
lol Try again!
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:28 am)#46 Jean-Charles Jacquemin
Thanks to you as well, my friend. We have a lot of good people here.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:31 am)this is my last post but before leaving this wonderful site , i want to set the records straight :
1. statik is not negative – read his post in the article before this .
2. statik can predict what’s going to happen next – b.s. just follow the news and the same stuff statik and some of you think are ‘breaking news ‘ is just …..breaking wind !
3. i am a GM guy – let’s just say i am a car guy through and through !
thanks
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:35 am)#30 JonP said,
Statik,
what kind of pop do you expect from this? think it’ll get over $6?
JonP.
==================
Morning JP,
I don’t think we are going to see much of anything today on this news specifically. The House result was largely expected, so I think it is fully priced in.
Hitting the Senate and the momentum (or lack thereof) is what is not priced in because it is impossible to tell right now…especially when dealing with politicians. Today’s trade will probably be a emotional one (depending on fear or hope, lol).
Will it go to Senate as is? Will they rework it before it goes and what changes will they make? How much opposition is real, how much is posturing and smokescreen, how serious are all the Senators that say they will not support it?
/shrug…we will see
—————————-
#34 tag — “he’s a cesspool of good information?” – very amusing, a lovely oxymoron there. I expected no less from you my friend, nice. I missed these. (=
PS) nods to Dave K, Rashiid & Jean-Charles
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:36 am)#52
Good-Bye Coach. Happy holidays to you and yours. Stay well.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:44 am)#52 coach
this is my last post but before leaving this wonderful site , i want to set the records straight :
1. statik is not negative – read his post in the article before this .
2. statik can predict what’s going to happen next – b.s. just follow the news and the same stuff statik and some of you think are ‘breaking news ‘ is just …..breaking wind !
3. i am a GM guy – let’s just say i am a car guy through and through !
thanks
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Coach,
If I have done something to upset you, I apologise. Please consider not leaving the site, because someone annoys you…or you don’t get along with them. I really make no claims to ‘predict’ anything…that football/lucky numbers post was just light hearted fun to even out the mood.
As you say, your a GM guy, your a car guy…so I can see how I could frustrate you. The tone of my posts more often than not are in conflict with what you probably want to see happen.
Every thread is new. I try to start each one fresh, and forget about old ones. Heck, a lot of people that I consider friends and get along with great now at one point or another probably had a lively disagreement (or several) with me…I don’t even know if it is possible to not have a disagreement with me.
Please reconsider, leaving because of me would be a shame. You are a member of the community…we don’t have to be buddies or anything.
Like I said in my last post, hopefully, “I’ll catch you in the next thread”
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:50 am)#50 TCook said,
“Hey Statik… Lotto Numbers didn’t even hit one. lol Try again!”
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Dang. Only thing I can think of…is you played the wrong lottery, hehe.
Double or nothing on my football picks!
—
Chicago over New Orleans, covering the spread
Washington over Cincinnati, covering the spread
St. Louis upsetting Seattle
….and Detroit destroying Indy by 28 points, I kidd, I kidd. Indy beats Detoit, but does not cover.
—
(Now featuring the correct spelling of Cincinnati for Daveo, sorry again about that butcher job of your fine city yesturday. I enjoy your radio station there Daveo, especially their dedication to farm news, as shown by its many wins of the “coveted Silver Sow Award”)
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:57 am)This whole automaker bailout is Just idiotic. We live in a country where a capitalist free market worked from the beginning and will continue to work without the influence of government. I could personally care less if GM goes belly up and would prefer it even with the volt at stake as it is not going to our so called salvation from Big oil anyway. Because we are a free market system we don’t have to worry about all the employees of GM because the prospect of having an already existing modern infrastructure is very very appealing to other up and coming automakers who are waiting for this to end so they can move whether it be a China, Canada, european or American manufacturer who needs the opportunity to just move in on a cheap buy and this will allow the current union agreements to be disolved and rewritten under the new ownership. This is the beauty of a free market. The weak will die off and the strong will thrive and grow.
Regarding oil tax. This is also not a good idea because even though it will bring tax money into the Govenment you would be hurting the consumer and the US oil companies by reducing consumption and reducing the ability to produce more oil inevitably causing us to run out because they could not continue to continue exploration and we DO NOT want this to happen.
I say this because no matter what even if youelliminate all gas burning cars on the road and all gas and oil burning power plants we will still need oil because majority of every consumable product in our home and workplaces is made from petroleum. (you know all those Chemistry Commercials you see on TV.)
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:59 am)at number 40 – how many of those failing small businesses are independantly owned car dealerships who can not sell cars because their customers cant get loans???
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:06 am)Back on the House bill —> It looks to me as if it is a C11, just not called that. The feds are providing the “debtor in possession” financing, and the car czar is serving as the bankruptcy judge. The car czar is to convene all the shareholders and forge an agreement that allows GM to return to operation is a leaner form. If they don’t agree, he decides, just like C11.
Positively, it avoids the stigma some people, possibly some car buyers, associate with the word “bankruptcy.”
Negatively, the established legal procedures of bankruptcy are not there. These are not just legalese.
I hope the plan works. In the meantime, we seem to be in for a protracted wait and see mode, the same as with a C11 filing.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch I hope Volt battery testing continues, as suggested by #12 NZDavid. Maybe even without a battery contract there can be something good to come out of these weeks.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:14 am)#58 Nick D says “how many of those failing small businesses are independantly owned car dealerships who can not sell cars because their customers cant get loans?”
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People with reasonable credit still can get auto loans and other loans. As the head of BofA has said, “we are still making loans to every qualified person we can find.” After all, that’s how BofA makes its money.
The problem is that GMAC used to give credit to anyone who could still walk and take a breath. That’s gone, at least for now. The irony is that it wasn’t the auto loans that got GMAC into trouble, it was that they got greedy and started making residential loans.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:22 am)GM, please don’t piss this money away on Escalades, Hummers, and Denalis.
Use it for breaking the oil addiction, and not by creating more addicts.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:37 am)First off, they should fire management at GM and hire the soon-to-be-ex-president. He can run GM for the next few years, with our soon-to-be-ex-vice-president at his side.
That should get GM back on it’s feet.
And more importantly, it will give Republicans the excuse they need to support a bailout of a blue state.
And oh, am I the only one wondering if the workers of GM are the pawns in the Republican end-game of making the economy worse, 40 days before the President-elect takes office? Adding a few hundred thousand people to the lines at the soup kitchen would make it pretty tough on a new Head of State.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:40 am)Do not support the auto industry bail out!
Do not throw good money after bad.
Bankruptcy is the correct path to drive the required clean up and rebuilding of the auto industry capabilities to meet today and tomorrow’s needs of alternate fuel transportation (individual and mass transit), less dependence on foreign oil and jobs (minus the UAW control).
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:48 am)Board of Directors should limit Salaries & bonus packages.
Sell all unnecessary equipment Airplanes, Condos, and luxury items.
Get back to basics, eliminate luxury models, make cars with only three options, reduce cost, reduce office staff, renegociate union salaries, the rest of us don’t have all these benefits.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:56 am)Hawaii is catching the wave and going electric.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/12/11/haiwaii_phoenix/
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:59 am)#62 Eco says,
First off, they should fire management at GM and hire the soon-to-be-ex-president. He can run GM for the next few years, with our soon-to-be-ex-vice-president at his side.
——–
You’re joking, right?
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:03 am)Ok First of all. The only reason I want a electric car and why I support the Volt is because it is cool, promotes new innovation and the amount of torque and power you can get out of an EV is much greater than an ICE. I dont want it in order to get rid of oil….on the contrary I am for increased exploration and production of US based oil. after all as I have said in my previous post you can never get rid of oil even if you elliminate all gas burning cars on the road and all gas and oil burning power plants we will still need oil because majority of every consumable product in our home and workplaces is made from petroleum. (you know all those Chemistry Commercials you see on TV.)
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:08 am)The bailout bill is nothing but a handout to the union. Because no sacrifices are asked of the union, the company will remain uncompetitive. GM will be back for more money every three months unless labor costs are harmonized with the non-union US based producers (Daimler, Honda, etc)
Cut wages and benefits for workers and retirees to levels comparable with other US workers. End the job bank, and let laid off autoworkers collect unemployment like everybody else, while they are LOOKING FOR A JOB.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:18 am)I think some of the car dealerships are going around with their eyes closed and their hands over their ears… I still want my VOLT. I am fairly secure financially and (to help the auto makers) thought I would upgrade from my 07 MAXX to an 09 Malibu Hybrid.. Up here in Central Alberta Canada (I know.. the oil patch of Canada) you would think the auto dealerships would be bending over backwards to move their product.. The dealership I went to had 12 Malibu hybrids on their lot. It is a big dealership where the bulk of their sales is still trucks… oil patch and all. The sales rep and the management of the place basically told me that the sticker price was firm… did not offer anywhere near the value of my MAXX (as a trade in… I looked it up in the “Black Book” before I went to the dealership) and said my MAXX was an oddball vehicle and would be tough for them to resell.. No incentives… no extras and with a large down payment…. we could not come to an agreeable sale/finance price…
I am going to try another dealership about an hour from here and see it I can do a deal there.
Otherwise… I will hang on to my MAXX (it is still like new with only 53000 KMS on it) Till the VOLT arrives..
orr go see Toyota..
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:23 am)An indicator of the direction mainstream sentiment has taken:
http://i34.tinypic.com/riezhv.jpg
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GM and Ford both closed plants in my (Southern) State. I wouldn’t expect my Senators to approve of the bailout (even though Ford isn’t a direct recipient of funding).
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:24 am)Since the election, President-Elect Obama seems to have strayed from his extreme left wing academic and politica roots, and moved to the center. This is evidenced by his appointments and recent statements. But the Pelosi crafted bailout bill is typical of the worst excessess of European socialism of the 50s and 60s.
The government gets a stake in GM, and appoints as “Car Czar” not an automotive expert, but a Democratic politician. Since the bailout guarentees continuation of the gold plated union contract, GM remains uncompetitive and comes back every 3 months for more money in return for more stock issued to the government. Eventually the government owns the entire industry, with continued infusions of taxpayer cash to reward the union bosses.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:28 am)RB,
I too view this bill as a Chapter 11 filing where the money appropriated is Just DIP financing for the reorganization. On March 31st it will be accepted as done. Or be the basis of a “prepackaged” official Chap 11 filing. But every attempt is being done to “prepack” and not call it the pejorative word ‘bankruptcy’. As a Republican, I would reserve judgement to such a policy for creating a special bankruptcy method for one company, but when an entire industry is failing and in the same boat, it’s something else entirely, and not just mis-management.
In any case, bankruptcy is a well established process in capitalism and very necessary. So a new form off it is just another bankruptcy law.
That is what Bob Corker said was necessary to clean up the balance sheets of all the companies, to make viable companies for both the bad times as well as the good times. A realistic assessment
is that there will be a massive swing to profitability of the Big 2.0+ when good times return; due to the extensive cost cutting and tax loss carried forwards. All the legislators in BOTH parties agreed with him, but a long term fix needs balance sheet restructuring and this will be it.
The restructuring will allow the domestics to build comparable cars to the foreign companies for the first time in many years. Just as they do overseas, while finally making a profit on the resultant cars.
For forty years the domestics have been forced to remove a bundle of features in their cars, to overcome the labor and legacy cost differentials, and it showed in their offerings. Now they can finally put the same amount of money into the cars, match feature for feature, and quality for quality at the SAME price. Anticipating the negotiated labor an legacy equality for 2010, that is what Bob Lutz has been instructed to do with the trucks, mid size cars and crossovers, appearing to date. Next year the Cruze and Volt, and Vue PHEV wil be added to the same mix.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:41 am)hi Ron #10,
“What would happen if the Feds used $15B to make a 10% down payment towards the purchase of any American Made automobile for anybody that buys a new car in the next 2 months?”
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That would be a targeted economic stimulus that the government would never get back. The current plan is a loan that should be repaid with interest.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:48 am)Number 72
stas peterson
Is a total idiot. he just dosent get it.
also americans have not been forced to remove features for 40 years.
The Ford taurus easly out sold the Camery and had a lot more features. It was americas best selling car.
Its just American Manifactures in the 1990s started to focus on SUV
and let there car lines go under.
Thats not the case TODAY. people like 97 are living in some import world where they think imports are better.
Tell that to my neighbor who owns a honda in the shop all the time. or my other neighbor who has a toyota transmission that failed.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:51 am)I thnik its totaly wrong for that Republican to not bail out the big three becasue he had a honda plant in his state.
The news was like if you had a GM plant in your state would you bail them out. He hesistated.
These guys in washington who do not support the bailout are anti-american.
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:55 am)#25 DonC
The direct labor costs only differ by $800 / vehicle if you ignore GM’s retiree costs, but why would you ignore those. They must get paid and they add to the cost of vehicles. And you suggest that the $800 cost difference is negligible. But when you’re talking $15,000 cars, that’s a HUGE difference.
So when small vehicles are already selling on slim margins, how can GM compete in this market with higher costs? Flogging designers harder will only buy you so much. The Big 3 move into higher margin markets was necessary because that was the only way they could cover these costs.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:17 am)@73
hi Ron #10,
“What would happen if the Feds used $15B to make a 10% down payment towards the purchase of any American Made automobile for anybody that buys a new car in the next 2 months?”
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That would be a targeted economic stimulus that the government would never get back. The current plan is a loan that should be repaid with interest.
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“The government would never get that back” ? That statement presumes that was the government’s money to begin with.
The way I see it, Ron’s idea would just amount to encouraging the taxpayer to buy American by letting him keep a little more of his own earnings.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:23 am)Hey Folks, I didn’t read all 70 responses here so I don’t know how many Canadians are involved in this but I am really scratching my head here! USA $14 billion… Canada $7 billion. Meanwhile, the government in the US needed to infuse $750 billion (and we all know its something like $1.5 trillion) compared to the Bank of Canada, who put up $50 billion only because the other kids in the sand box said we had to?!?! From my knowledge, the big 3 don’t even have plans to build any of the “sellable” cars of the future in Canada (the camaro is a very cool car and I would love to buy one but I am just trying to figure out what my next purchase should be for gas price reasons let alone having a really cool car). None of this makes alot of sence and for all intents and purposes we just lost Capitalism and substituted it for a game called Monopoly (and guess who gets to make all of the money and the rules in order to win the game). Pleeeeease, can Canada have some too?
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:28 am)57 Tut: This whole automaker bailout is Just idiotic. We live in a country where a capitalist free market worked from the beginning
The capatalist free market may have worked from the beginning, but somewhere in the process, it broke down; cheaper labour from other countries, national and credit card debt, etc. The biggie is complacency; America has to try harder–not rest on its laurels like it could 50 years ago.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:32 am)Why are we postponing the inevitable with this bailout. Times have changed. We can’t manufacture goods at a profit in this country anymore. I don’t see everyone whining that you can’t buy an American made T.V. set or 99% of other products. Why should cars be any different? My dad worked in a manufacturing job for 35 years and hated every minute of it. This isn’t the industry we should be trying to save.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:35 am)#76 Cautious Fan – “They must get paid and they add to the cost of vehicles.”
Of course all costs have to be added. The question is whether you claim that current workers are responsible for these costs. Executive pay has to be added to the cost of the car. The cost of corporate planes has to be added. The cost of executive dining rooms has to be added. Are you endorsing the absurd notion that those costs should be apportioned to current workers? Retiree costs can no more be considered part of current worker pay as retired executive compensation can be considered part of current executive pay. The claim that they should be leads to the conclusion that the compensation package for the current CEO of GE includes all monies and compensation given to retired CEO Jack Welch. That is simply crazy.
Having said that, GM’s labor cost will still be higher than the transplants. (The $800 figure does include most of the retiree cost BTW). The point of the article, which would seem unarguable, is that this gap accounts for a third of GM’s problem. The other two-thirds is a management problem – poor design, poor quality, etc. So thinking that cutting labor costs will magically resolve GM’s competitive problems is fundamentally misguided because the simple reason is that labor costs are simply not the major cause of GM’s competitive issues.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:45 am)#77
The government would never get that back” ? That statement presumes that was the government’s money to begin with.
The way I see it, Ron’s idea would just amount to encouraging the taxpayer to buy American by letting him keep a little more of his own earnings.
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I guess the question is what would be better, a loan to the manufacturer or a tax-rebate to a segment of the population ready to buy a new car? Either way the government deficit goes up. With the loan the deficit should eventually come back down by the same amount plus a little more due to the interest on the repaid loans. With your suggestion the deficit would only go up by the 15 billion because it is a big tax refund – but not for everyone – just those ready to buy a new car. Imagine the cries of “foul” that would produce. It would be said “Hey, the new car buyers just got a 15 billion dollar bailout, what about the rest of us? I want to buy X Y or Z, shouldn’t I get some assistance?”.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:46 am)Found this review on the financial page…
_________________
Sleepers: Bang-for-the-Buck Slam Dunks
Sometimes you have to swim against the current. These cars don’t get nearly the credit they deserve for being excellent but, quietly, are developing a following.
Chevy Malibu
$21,605
The Chevy Malibu, according to Consumer Reports, has been a consistently reliable car, especially when equipped with the fuel sipping (22/33) four-cylinder engine. What’s more, it’s a thoroughly enjoyable car to drive. It’s very room inside (“American-sized” is the way one friend put it), handles quite well, and is agile as well as stable under all conditions. Compared with Ford’s Five Hundred, er, Taurus, this car is playing in another league—the one pioneered by the likes of the Accord and Camry. And anyone shopping in that league really must cross-shop the Malibu. It’s that good.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:48 am)#78 Bob Murray
Hey Folks, I didn’t read all 70 responses here so I don’t know how many Canadians are involved in this but I am really scratching my head here! USA $14 billion… Canada $7 billion. Meanwhile, the government in the US needed to infuse $750 billion (and we all know its something like $1.5 trillion) compared to the Bank of Canada, who put up $50 billion only because the other kids in the sand box said we had to?!?! From my knowledge, the big 3 don’t even have plans to build any of the “sellable” cars of the future in Canada (the camaro is a very cool car and I would love to buy one but I am just trying to figure out what my next purchase should be for gas price reasons let alone having a really cool car). None of this makes alot of sence and for all intents and purposes we just lost Capitalism and substituted it for a game called Monopoly (and guess who gets to make all of the money and the rules in order to win the game). Pleeeeease, can Canada have some too?
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Sweetness, a fellow Canadian.
You mentioned some numbers in there –> “Canadians are involved in this but I am really scratching my head here! USA $14 billion… Canada $7 billion”
The USA number is what they are getting, the ‘Canadian number’ is what the Big 2.8 asked for…big difference. Right now I don’t think Canada wants any part of this, we have been doing the ‘wait and see—we need more disclosure’ dance along time…it looks to continue until at least our gov’t goes back to doing what it does in January.
I’ll break down the ‘Canada requests’ from automakers:
GM wants 800M now, 1.6B later, a extra 1.2B if markets go under GM’s “baseline”
Chrysler wants 1.6 billion by the end of the year
Ford wants a LoC for 2 billion
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7.2 billion total
So if Canada capitulated akin to what the US is doing, they would be approving GM’s 800M and Chrysler’s 1.6…for a total of 2.4, (which we won’t–Chrysler I mean).
This is the likely outcome (by automaker):
Chrysler is off its rocker if it thinks it can get 1.6 out of us. They are going to have about 3-4K jobs left here in another month or two, and it is not impossible to see them having no presence in Canada in a year. So we can do math, lol. The gov’t could just send a check to each of their employess for $500,000. Chrysler might get a token amount if they give assurances on jobs/production.
GM is really the heart of the Canadian auto industry (well… the heart of southern Ontario’s auto industry), so they are likely to get the 800 million in Q1 2009, provided the US interm bailout goes through. You are also likely to see them get another billion or so, if ’round 2′ in the US goes through. As for the extra 1.2 cooked in if markets are bad…fat chance.
Ford is a trickier situation. I don’t think there is anyway we give them a revolving line of credit…we just don’t work that way. They may give them assurances that the Gov’t would be willing to back them for a certain amount, ‘one time only’ or ‘as needed’ but only by specific application.
So I’d say we blow between 1-1.5 billion on a package in the new year, then take a wait and see and maybe dole out another 2 billion in the spring and be done with the whole thing. The US is going to torch 14 billion now…and probably another 75 in the spring (on top of refunding the ‘retooling’ program)….so I think you will find it will be more than ‘representational’ before it is done.
/maybe you’ll get the Oshawa, Ontario built Camaro yet
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:58 am)Don,
Not to get in your face here, but can you point out a specific example of poor design ? A specific example of poor quality ?
From my own personal experience, I see the design and manufacture of the American cars being as good (or better than) the jap brands. What’s really hurt the big three’s “design/quality” image has been DEALERSHIP SERVICE.
Way too many GM/Pontiac/Buick/Caddy dealers simply scan for codes, toss a couple parts at the car, and hand the customer a bill. Then the customer keeps bringing the car in for the same problem over and over, and it’s perceived as a crappy quality or crappy design issue.
Prime example – My 95 Buick Riviera. From ’98 to 2000 it never ran right and was at the dealership half the time. Over a dozen trips in they ended up replacing fuel filter, fuel pump, several injectors, various sensors, fuel rail assembly, and eventually the entire engine (with a GM reman short block).
Know what the real problem was ? It got water in the fuel at some point and rusted the (steel) fuel lines. I had to identify and fix that problem MYSELF after all this dealership horsesh!t.
For the last 100k miles it’s been an absolutely perfect car. But if I didn’t know any better, I would probably have seen this car as a horrible POS and sworn off buying anything from that manufacturer again. I’m probably not the only one who’s had this kind of experience; IMO this kind of thing probably has more to do with their percieved lack of quality than the vehicles themselves.
Hopefully GM can straighten this out somewhat when they get away from having so many dealerships.
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:11 pm)_____________________________________________________
News Flash:
“GMAC Financial Services’ management team announced this morning that it may withdraw its application to become a bank holding company. Why? ”
Source: http://www.autoremarketing.com/ar/news/story.html?id=8819
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Dec 11th, 2008 (12:22 pm)#28 statik:
PDNFTT, LOL. You’re a better man than I am!
#43 Rashiid:
Right. It’s just the SOS, day in and day out. It’s far better to just ignore it than to waste a lot of energy getting mad.
#46 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
And thanks to you as well.
Dr. Dennis:
Thanks for the thread on the Tesla. I think that it is really valuable to see what is going on with potential alternatives to the Volt. If this all goes bad with GM and the volt, I know that I will be searching for options. I am really interested on the latest on the Aptera, the Phoenix, dare I say it the Zenn, et al.
Avatar’s link to the Wired.com article re: Japan and Project Better Place was really thought provoking. Maybe there’s actually something to it.
Anyway, this site has great value over and above supporting GM and the Volt. God forbid that the Volt does not materialize, I hope that we can continue the search for other options.
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:30 pm)It does look bad at this point for the loan package bill to pass the Senate. Sorry for that, GM.
Coach,
I want to echo what Statik said about not leaving this site. You have made some good comments in the past and I look forward to reading more in the future. Not everyone is going to agree with you every time. I can vouch for that because I have made controversial statements in the past (and will do so in the future) that ticked off others as I have been ticked off by what others have said. Statik does have the Volt at heart even when he is posting comments that show the negative side of what is going on in GM. We need to know the bad as well as the good about GM. Statik provides good commentary as does many others, including yourself, on this site. Stay with us and give us your opinions and comments.
Dec 11th, 2008 (12:33 pm)#86 CDAVIS
News Flash:
“GMAC Financial Services’ management team announced this morning that it may withdraw its application to become a bank holding company. Why? ”
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Short version:
Only a fraction of its bondholders agreed to swap for their debt….so they can’t access TARP. They needed to raise 30 billion of reg cap…they only got about 6.3 from GMAC holders and 2 from ResCap, 75% short.
They made that announcement yesterday because of how very short they are coming up, basically they are trying to scare up some compliance…and to announce at the same time they were extending the deadline.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:06 pm)#11 coach
# 6 George K
” I nominate Bob Lutz for Car Czar.
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do you know what congress wants the auto czar for ? its definitely NOT TO DESIGN A CAR !
bob lutz’s expertise is hardly what the auto czar requires !!! pls think before u post .”
First, Lutz is not just a designer. He has over 30 years of experience in the auto industry. Bob Boniface, designer of the Volt, is a car designer.
Second, the best person making decisions when things are going well, is not the the best person when things are going down. I’ve seen that many times in businesses.
Lutz is the perfect person as the Car Czar, because he is tougher than whomever they are going to pick. He knows the auto industry extremely well, he’s not worried about being PC. and he’s not afraid to cut deeply “with a hatchet, rather than a scalpel”. That’s why we need Lutz or Iacocca, or a few others like them. But there aren’t that many.
So far, whatever the big 2.8 have done, it’s still, “way too little to late.” We have no more time for the same direction, since GM runs out of cash within 3 weeks.
That’s what I was thinking, coach. It was intended to be a light comment with actually some truth behind it, in view of the dark clouds around GM and the Volt project. You took my short sentence way too seriously, pal.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:09 pm)Maybe GMAC and GM needs to go through a restructuring Chapter 11. Looks like GM is going to be forced into one due to lack of support for the loan package in the Senate. I can’t say it is surprising. The Republicans and some Democrats have been saying for weeks there needs to be more restructuring and reducing of debt in any plan to help GM and Chrysler. May very well be up to a judge to decide both of their fates. Once it gets into Chapter 11, the bankruptcy judge will probably force them into Chapter 7 because GM does not have any financing and Chrysler parent company does not want to provide any.
What say you, Statik?
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:10 pm)“The new draft of the bill removed the legislation requiring automakers to accept greenhouse gas emissions standards set by individual states like California.”
This is BULLCRAP.
The Auto Industry went to court many many times in attempt to stop individual states from setting their own emissions standards so that they didn’t have to ‘innovate’, citing reasons such as “It’s too costly, impossible right now, etc.” Now they have the free reign to keep doing this just so that they don’t have to improve their own product.
It’s just corporate welfare. The Japanese companies learned to innovate and they are beating the American companies. The American companies don’t want to ‘innovate’ unless their forced to.
I guess GM likes being on the bottom, cause that’s where they’ll stay until they can produce vehicles which are better quality/less expensive/more fuel efficient then the Prius.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:22 pm)#81 DonC
this gap accounts for a third of GM’s problem
_______________________________________________
Fair point. Worker pay & benefits are only part of the problem, though saying 1/3 is difficult because managers were forced to work within a more constrained space due to the higher costs. The fact that all 3 companies are having similar problems is indicative however. They had different designers, different managers, different quality control methods, different investors different boards, etc, yet they all ended up in similar situations. One thing they all do have in common….UAW. I’m not one for union bashing, people should be perfectly free to belong to a union, but that variable does seem to be correlated to the companies current financial situations, to a greater amount then any common variable I can see.
If executive pay is the problem, the gov’t intervention won’t structurally change anything. Cnce the loans get paid off, they’ll move right back to where it was.
On your comments yesterday on when to intervene, your standards are surprisingly subjective, especially when the decision maker is a politician. Sounds like a standard that can fit any solution.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:24 pm)Lunch time is over. Spent most of it reading this entire thread….It had that “soap opera” feel to it today.
No time to post AWW, but maybe later.
Have a nice day!
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:34 pm)#85 D B Cooper – “Not to get in your face here, but can you point out a specific example of poor design ? A specific example of poor quality ?”
No problems. It’s not really an example question since it’s what the numbers are telling us not what you or I think. Basically GM has to sell cars equivalent to cars offered by the transplants at a $2500 discount. IOW if an Accord sells for $23K a comparably equipped Malibu has to sell for $21.5K. What this says is that countless numbers of people think GM cars are “less” in terms of styling, reliability, performance, or, because of those things, resale value. (Don’t get too hung up on the Malibu-Accord comparison, it may be less or more than $2.5K. That number represents the average GM discount).
Whether you or I think this is crazy or correct doesn’t matter. If you think there is no difference then you can save $2.5K and get a bargain. The problem is that GM is faced with a “profit gap” — they’re making less profit on each car. Less profit means less for R&D and there is less money available for fit and finish. It’s a vicious cycle. FWIW Lutz has conceded the problem and has said that, rather than trying to maximize profits, GM has decided to take a new course and make better cars, letting profits flow from the increase in quality rather than sacrificing quality to make immediate profits. (The Volt plays its halo role here by getting buyers who would not otherwise look at GM cars into the showroom to see the new cars with better quality).
Now the important point is that labor is not a major component of the “profit gap”. At most it’s a third. So throwing retirees under the bus and cutting worker salaries is not going to magically solve GM’s competitive problems. Even if the UAW and all its retirees disappeared tomorrow GM would still have 2/3 of the same profit gap they have today. Bottom line: focusing on the union is a distraction that takes away from more serious efforts to solve GM’s fundamental competitive problems.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:37 pm)#91 N Riley
What say you Statik?
________________________________________________
I second that question. Oh Statik, giver of knowledge and light, possessor of wisdom and peace (only partial sarcasm), what happens to Gov’t Motors IF the bill doesn’t make it through the Senate. Can they survive to January, or will the suppliers descend like a hoard of locusts trying be first in line to get their share?
N Riley – I wouldn’t bet on it not making it through. Throw some of the filibustering senators a tax break here, a job for your brother-in-law there, and they’ll drop the filibuster and still vote against the bill.
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:42 pm)#91 N Riley
Maybe GMAC and GM needs to go through a restructuring Chapter 11. Looks like GM is going to be forced into one due to lack of support for the loan package in the Senate. I can’t say it is surprising. The Republicans and some Democrats have been saying for weeks there needs to be more restructuring and reducing of debt in any plan to help GM and Chrysler. May very well be up to a judge to decide both of their fates. Once it gets into Chapter 11, the bankruptcy judge will probably force them into Chapter 7 because GM does not have any financing and Chrysler parent company does not want to provide any.
What say you, Statik?
===================================
I’m assuming what do I think about the prospects for GMAC?
Well, that is tricky because it is backed/owned by a private organization. So the first decision lies with Cerberus. They have to decide on the likelyhood of a bailout past this bailout…and past that, if the bailouts indeed does produce its intented result –viable Detroit auto. In any scenario where there is a stable economy and GM is a ongoing entity, GMAC is a cash cow.
Without Cerberus backstopping it and without meeting the reqs for bank status/TARP on December 31st, 2008…It is probably straight to C7. I’m am just guessing off the top of my head though. As we get closer we should see some direction on it…and more importantly how it affects GM.
Of note, there is no allowances AT ALL for the loss of GMAC in GM’s “turnaround plan,’ or any further cost implications of its demise, which I think is significant.
Further to that, just a few months ago GMAC financed almost 50% of GM’s sales, now it is 6%. With all in house financing gone, and coupled with massive layoffs, brand/plant shutdowns, it is hard to see how GM does not continue to post huge drops in sales. I’m still baffled how GM sees a ‘baseline’ of 12 million cars sold in NA, with them increasing their market share to 22.5%.
GMAC and continuing sales barriers are sure to take the front seat on the ‘issues at hand’ during ‘Bailout V2.0′ Right now they are not questioning any assumptions made or getting now to bare facts of the plan…it is almost like they are intentionally skwinting when they look at it. They will certainly be questioning GM’s ‘baseline’ plan and predictions in round 2.
Side note: On the topic of GM trying to get sales at any cost, they just put out huge rebates yesterday on top of Red Tag Sales for trucks, I think they are trying to maintain their market share at any cost until they get through Bailout 2.0:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/12/gm-adds-more-ca.html
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:51 pm)$93 Cautious Fan – “On your comments yesterday on when to intervene, your standards are surprisingly subjective, especially when the decision maker is a politician. Sounds like a standard that can fit any solution.”
Everyday we send people to prison or to death row based on even more subjective judgements — did he/she “intend” to do this or that or did he/she think “more than instantaneously” before delivering a death blow or was it “in the heat of passion.” Compared to these types of subjective judgements, deciding when you have a potential economic catastrophe on your hands is pretty simple. In the last twenty-five years we’ve had three. Twenty five years ago we had the S&L failures. Ten years ago we had Long Term Capital Management. Today we have a much larger one. Seems fairly straightforward.
As for the profit gap, executive pay is going to be even less of a problem than labor. It’s like the corporate jets — the numbers are so small that its symbolic more than anything else. The problem GM has is that consumers think their cars are worth less than the competitor’s cars. GM has to close that gap.
This BTW is the contribution Bob Lutz is making. He’s convinced GM to stop focusing on making a profit on every car and instead focus on making competitive cars. He says “best in class” but essentially what he means is a car that is competitive with best in class. He believes that with the CTS and the Malibu and the Cruze they’ve done that. His strategy is to then use the Volt as a halo car that lures buyers who would not otherwise look at a GM car into GM showrooms. Most may not buy a Volt, but they might buy a Malibu or a Cruze. (This is why the Volt will be released on the coasts — that’s where buyers are reluctant to look at GM cars).
Dec 11th, 2008 (1:58 pm)#72 stas — on the House bill being essentially a version of C11, just not called that
=========================================
We are on the same page. I agree.
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:00 pm)#97 Static – “On the topic of GM trying to get sales at any cost, they just put out huge rebates yesterday on top of Red Tag Sales for trucks,”
In your mind does this definitely answer the question of whether falling gas prices are jump starting truck sales or are you still on the fence?
GMAC is going to be a mess.
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:03 pm)#96 cautious fan
I second that question. Oh Statik, giver of knowledge and light, possessor of wisdom and peace (only partial sarcasm), what happens to Gov’t Motors IF the bill doesn’t make it through the Senate. Can they survive to January, or will the suppliers descend like a hoard of locusts trying be first in line to get their share?
N Riley – I wouldn’t bet on it not making it through. Throw some of the filibustering senators a tax break here, a job for your brother-in-law there, and they’ll drop the filibuster and still vote against the bill.
——————————
Lol.
What happens If the bill doesn’t pass? Like gone…see ya in January?
Total apocalypse. GM stock trades at a nickel within minutes of the event. Total run at the bank, creditors are at the door instantly. GM is filing for bankruptcy within 24-48 hours.
GM is operationally bankrupt right now…by billions of dollars. Best guess is they are at around 9 billion cash in the bank now, even with and pushing out terms and delaying payments/incentives to the likely tune of another billion or two on top. The only thing that stopped the ‘run’ even a month or so ago was the expectation of gov’t intervention, without that…it is ‘on like Donkey Kong’.
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:08 pm)#100 DonZ said,
#97 Static – “On the topic of GM trying to get sales at any cost, they just put out huge rebates yesterday on top of Red Tag Sales for trucks,”
In your mind does this definitely answer the question of whether falling gas prices are jump starting truck sales or are you still on the fence?
GMAC is going to be a mess.
=======================================
I thought of you when I saw it actually, lol.
I’m not really on the fence. In my opinion, the falling gas prices are giving some (not a lot) of relief to dealers with inventory on the lots, they have a little movement there….but virtually nothing at all to GM itself, because of dealer replenishment/inventory/frozen/no credit issues.
A good number of dealers have now got to under 90 days on their truck inventory (still not at the optimal number-60). Silverado and Trailblazer are both nationally under 90 days inventory right now.
I think GM thinks if they just keep hammering away at that number, eventually they are bound to pick up stock from their holding pens full of trucks and SUVs.
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:33 pm)Oil prices near $49 a barrel as dollar falls * Thursday December 11, 2008, 1:27 pm EST
Weak dollar outweighs IEA report on weak demand; Oil prices near $49
HOUSTON (AP) — Oil prices rose nearly 12 percent Thursday as the dollar continued to lose value, making commodities like crude more attractive. In London, January Brent crude soared 12.5 percent, or $5.31, to $47.71 on the ICE Futures exchange.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Oil-prices-near-48-a-barrel-apf-13807993.html
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (2:39 pm)Why worried on Tax payer money ?
Dollar is a paper currency, Its not linked to anything:
Dollar is a form of fiat currency and are not backed by tangible assets such as gold or silver. Such critics argue that Federal Reserve Notes can lose value easily and point to the currency’s inflation rates for proof of this claim.
Print it, lend it whatz blocking ? paper and ink prices ?
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:05 pm)Look at the bright side. If the Volt comes out at $40k in 2011, that $40k is worth less and less every day. A $40k car might not be any more expensive than a $40k bag of peanuts.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:21 pm)@Mark 92
Although I want the Volt, I totally agree with you on this. IF GM’s plan was presented as to build more environmentally friendly products, higher efficiency and alternative fuels, there should’ve been no issue in the clauses presence. Like I said before. The Volt will far exceed anything CA decides to regulate on emissions. This isn’t giving mw the warm and fuzzy feelings anymore.
Everyone knows the foreign companies already have met or exceeded the CA standards and have done so for years. Isn’t that part of being “Innovative” or “Advanced Technology”.
C’mon GM, I want My Volt!
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:27 pm)No, I was not kidding about making George W Bush the new head of GM.
You can finish the sentances any way you like!
“If anyone can convince the American people to spend their hard-earned money…”
“The man who brought public financing to the Texas Ranger Stadium, and payed back the taxpayers of Arlington, Texas, early with interest…”
“The man who claimed to be an excellent chief executive, who hired people and stayed loyal to them…”
“The President who was certain that the principals of good management could fix big bureaucracy…”
“The man who identified a seemingly unattainable goal and stuck to it despite overwhelming evidence of immenent failure…”
“The man who led America in the days after 9-11…”
“The man who’s connections propelled him to the Presidency…”
“The steward of an economic recovery that did not increase wages…”
Little did I know that the Presidency was his preparation to take the helm of GM.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:32 pm)#107 Eco you left out a few…
“The man who’s administration made 935 false statements that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when there were none”.
“The man, who during his 8 years as president, could’nt catch Osama Bin Laden.
“The man, that instead of going to war as a last resort, made it his first priority”.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:34 pm)107 CaptJackSparrow:
Actually, I think that every car maker out there, with the possible exception of Honda, is a party to the litigation right along with the 2.8. Everybody meets the standards right now, or they couldn’t sell cars in the state. They just don’t want to (say they can’t) meet the upcoming CO2 standards, which will require a lot better mileage.
Ironically, if GM met the mileage committments in their “plan”, my understanding is that they would meet the dreaded future CA standards. So what’s their point?
If we give these guys taxpayer dollars which they can use to continue legal action (never mind lobbying) against the taxpayers, shame on us. And don’t forget that it isn’t only CA. At least 14 other states have signed on to the same standards, and are parties to the same litigation.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:37 pm)#103 Dave K – “Weak dollar outweighs IEA report on weak demand; Oil prices near $49″
Neither here nor there, but a lot of empirical evidence suggests that the strength of the dollar doesn’t affect oil prices. This morning’s move in the price of oil seems related to the Saudi announcement that they had effectuated oil price reductions, in which case there would be less crude on the market than previously thought.
Whatever the reason, oil prices at this point are definitely the tail on the dog.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:40 pm)I thought I should just add there is another door left open (albeit very small) to GM if the bailout somehow dies here…besides a re-push on Jan 6th (if they could somehow hold the line until then), when the Dems come back with more Senators.
The White House could always double back and use the TARP, they said no way-no how…but never say never, anything is possible. (Although odds are REALLY slim).
I’m still going to put my money on a re-work of the bill to mirror whatever Corker wants (he has seemed like the guy doing his homework…and actually controlling this show), then have it go back through the House.
Dec 11th, 2008 (3:51 pm)To disagree just slightly with statik, I think if the bailout dies that GM will hold out for another 6 weeks with the hope that a miracle will save them when the new administration comes to power. No doubt GM and their creditors will be in extreme pain. But GM does have some cash to stave off the most hungry wolves, some desirable assets that may be maneuvered, and they have had time to think about extreme possibilities. Moreover, many of the creditors — maybe all of them —may not wish to push GM over the brink while there is the prospect that a new administration will do something favorable, as there is. A perverse fact helping GM is that right now there is not a good market for a surplus truck factory, for example, so it doesn’t help a creditor much to seize it.
Certainly GM will be virtually shut down in the interim (other than lawyers and accountants), but I think the corporation will be alive a little longer.
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:11 pm)Loan, no loan, bailout, no bailout. Does it really matter? Just take a look at the big 3 over the past 30 years when they had more than enough opportunity to make things right. They decided instead to make poor quality and profits their goal.
A great look at some of the highlights:
http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/blogs/marty_blog/2008/us-news-publishes-list-10-cars-that-sank-detroit/
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:24 pm)Hey, all fellow Canadians, have you checked out your handy dandy gm.ca website lately??
Seems like we might be getting the Volt first!!!
Ok ok, not really, but it is the FIRST thing the pops up when I hit the page.
Just found it kinda funny.
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:31 pm)I believe that there is a lot of hype, as there should be, about the Chevy Volt but in the end it will fail for several reasons:
1. – They will build the vehicle with the same quality, care, and cheap parts just as they always have.
2. – They will ride the wave of enthusiasm for an electric vehicle and when the car is finally available to the public we will soon realize that the car is not built as intended or promised. It will fall significantly short of expectations.
3. – By the time the Volt is released the cost of electricity will not be as affordable as it once while other car manufacturers will already have other alternative fuel vehicles in final stages of testing and ready for production. The big 3 will have missed another opportunity.
4. – The cost of the car will be too much for the average person and in fact will most likely be 8K to 10K more than some of the other available hybrids with great gas mileage.
5. – We will probably still be in a recession as well making a vehicle purchase low on the list of needs.
So in the end it’s a great idea if it had been 5 to 10 years ago but again the Big 3 just can’t get it right.
Dec 11th, 2008 (4:54 pm)#111 Statik – “another door left open”
It’s also possible that Bernake will show up with a rescue loan. The Fed has the authority and power to offer loans to any entity and individual in situations where financing is otherwise not available. As an economist Bernake understands the risks to the economy of having the auto industry go under, and he’s not irresponsible. He would like to stay on at the Fed and his term ends in 2010 …
This would actually be a good thing because the Fed is less susceptible to the counter productive political posturing we’re seeing in Congress.
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:03 pm)So why aren’t we bailing out the 86 year old company KB toys who filed chapter 11 today?
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:14 pm)Rightfully, the bailout is too controversial. Chances are it may be die. If so, perhaps GM, Chrysler and Ford should merge. A new CEO will be retained. I strongly believe that is what is going to happen.
The Volt by itself is NOT AN EXCUSE to keep GM alive. There are other plug-ins already in development. The Think City is probably more cost effective than the Volt. The Prius plug-in with 9 miles and under $25K would probably pose a serious competition to the Volt anyway.
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:15 pm)#111 Static
If Bush goes to the TARP, that’d be such irony on the Senate Republicans who balked at this current bill. They’d hate the TARP alternative even more. And Pelosi would still get her $25,000,000,000 retooling loans. Hah.
#116 DonC
Bernanke has said he would not do this….but that could just be brinkmanship. If push comes to shove who knows
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:15 pm)FOR ALL THE CANUCKS HERE:
“Action will be taken, he vowed. The deal hammered out in Washington, D. C., is being watched closely and Canada will copy the U. S. moves to prevent competitive disadvantages from crossing the border, he added.”
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/story.html?id=1059736
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:31 pm)Save your cash! We might see a big “Fire Sale” in March 2009.
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:42 pm)There is breaking events apparently, but it is sketchy, so take them for what it is worth.
Some are saying the meeting the Reps had with the UAW and Dodd went very badly, no one is backing the story yet though.
Apparently, they are going to try and do a vote tonight. Don’t know yet if it is going to be the as proposed House bill yet, which is very unlikely to pass, but just to get the wheels moving and see where they really are.
There might be a couple attempts at it tonight. There is a real fear now that maybe this thing is going to die on the floor and it might get put back on the White House to capitulate.
The line in the sand moment may be that the Reps (and a few Dems) will not back down until the UAW agrees to bring wages/benefits inline with foreign automakers producing in the US…and the UAW is not so keen. (all just speculation though)
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:44 pm)GM and Chrysler each need TWO THINGS.
MONEY to operate and a consumer with a REASON to buy their cars.
Loan GM & Chrysler each $1,000,000,000 on the first of each month. And GIVE the American tax payer an instant government rebate of 10% on top of the dealers advertised “red tag” price. Ford will get the 10% instant rebate only (at this time)
example:
Malibu sticker of $23,000
Malibu “red tag” $21,400
less 10% gov IR -$2140
price – (tax&lic) $19,260
Think GM can sell few at this price? This plan will work and the tax payer is SURE to get a little something for the risk of loaning real money.
_______________________________
Hey statik,
S&P 790 again?
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:49 pm)123.
Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 11th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
=============================
Dave, your proposal is so insane that it makes me wonder you could be a candidate to work for GM management.
Who in the world would buy an ugly Malibu when I can pay almost same price for a Honda Accord? Who in the world is buying cars anyway, have you noticed people are losing jobs left and right?
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:53 pm)Side note: If Reid decides to back down and support Corker’s plan, regardless of the meeting progress, it would likely pass bigtime.
Corker’s plan is also thought to set benchmarks on debt…cutting it by 2/3rds, converting 1/2 of Veba obligations to equity and of course the UAW cut. For sure it all has a ‘drop dead date’ where if they do not get it done by a certain date, they are forced into bankruptcy.
Dec 11th, 2008 (5:57 pm)#123 Dave K
Hey statik,
S&P 790 again?
=D~
=========================================
I have to disqualify myself from answering because I can’t right now without bias. I’m holding a small quantity of puts on the Spyders, lol.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:01 pm)Eco #107,
I respectfully disagree.
George Bush is a complete putz.
He tanked this country. Why do you think he won’t tank GM further?
I am a Republican. In the beginning I was so happy that he became
President. Now, I am sorry that it occurred and I am very excited to see him leave. Hopefully he will fade into oblivion.
He won’t save GM. But maybe he get can “sure shot” Cheney to shoot someone in the buttocks.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:16 pm)Here’s a GM based car that could bring in a LOT of badly needed sales …. that is, IF they bring it to America and sell it. I think it looks pretty damn good. It is the “European Car of the Year”. The Opel Insignia. The Opel exterior/interior designers did a pretty good job.
http://www.caroftheyear.org/pages/Coty09.htm
GM ought to play up their award winning cars in their advertising on the web and in their print ads. Those JD Power surveys and other reviews also. It gets people’s attention. The Insignia got a pretty good review from Motor Trend.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0807_2009_opel_insignia_first_drive/feature_options_specs.html
I think this is a car that could match up very well vs. the best from Lexus, Acura, BMW, and Mercedes. If GM decides to get rid of the Saturn brand, this car looks like a high end Chevrolet or a Cadillac to me. Bring this car to America! The sooner GM gets a rock solid reputation for quality, reliability and cool looking cars the better. This car should help GM get the kudos they badly need.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:26 pm)Other random news:
————————-
GM board member Ellen Kullman resigns
Thursday December 11, 5:31 pm ET
GM board member Ellen Kullman resigns to focus on CEO role at Dupont
NEW YORK (AP) — General Motors Corp. said Thursday that a member of its board of directors and the president of DuPont, Ellen J. Kullman, has resigned to focus on her responsibilities at the chemical company.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081211/gm_kullman.html
———————–
She had been on the board about 4 years…dunno what the means to the price of soup, seems like bad timing, but there you go.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:35 pm)#101 Static
I grew up on Donkey-Kong. Love it.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:36 pm)#98 DonC
So we both agree that the gov’t shouldn’t kill people using subjective rules…two wrongs don’t make a right. That’s an argument for more objectivity.
I’ll drop my governance responses here, not really the place for it anyway right ;D. You seem like a smart enough guy. I’d encourage you to read on fundamental governance philosophies. Many suggest that gov’t exists to protect commons (House of Commons.) A commons would be:
1 – Things which people have an incentive to do
2 – which harms others
3 – and for which there is no natural, proportional, & moral feedback loop.
Once you move past that principle, it’s objectively difficult to define what the powers of gov’t should be and the natural trend seems to be for gov’t to increase in power.
By the way, LTCM had 2 nobel prize winners on their staff…
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:38 pm)130 Cautious Fan Says:
I grew up on Donkey-Kong. Love it.
—————–
I did too. Here is the link to the online game.
You will have to remove the quotes.
“http://www.donkeykongonline.com/donkey-kong-online-game.html”
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:42 pm)130 Cautious Fan Says:
I grew up on Donkey-Kong. Love it.
—————–
#132 Rashiid said,
I did too. Here is the link to the online game.
You will have to remove the quotes.
“http://www.donkeykongonline.com/donkey-kong-online-game.html”
================================
So what we are saying is that we all owned a Coleco in our youth? Ah, the ties that bind, lol.
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:52 pm)Asteroids is king.
nuf’ said
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (6:58 pm)@statik
I had the football game…..lol
Damn, you guys are old!
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:04 pm)#135 CaptJackSparrow said,
@statik
I had the football game…..lol
Damn, you guys are old!
==================================
I’ll see that, and raise you my “Super Action Baseball,” that coincidentally came with Super Action controllers. (Always seems to have one ‘sticky’ button and your hands were knocked up stumps after a few hours at the dish)
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp-content/images/retroscan/coleco_sac_2_large.jpg
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:06 pm)“General Motors Corp. has hired lawyers and bankers to consider whether to file for bankruptcy protection, said several people familiar with the matter.” — WSJ online now.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:07 pm)#133 Statik,
Ya, funny how we are connected.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:17 pm)Manufacturer: Atari
Year: 1979
One of the earliest and extremely popular vector games with its basic black and white graphics, Asteroids endears itself to the player with its deceptively simple gameplay but fiendish difficulty curve. The heartbeat-sounding bass thump of the game speeds up as the levels progress, only serving to increase your own tension.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:17 pm)The Senate Republicans are systematically tearing down our economy. They want to take out any environmental mandates on the bill they would pass. That means they don’t want innovation and want the US auto industry to fail. It’s ironic that most of them seem to be favoring the foreign car companies that have cut deals in their own States. They also do not care about the millions of lost jobs and huge un-employment costs associated with their actions. This is exactly what happens when a party favors the status quo.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:17 pm)The world has turned upside down! What happened to the Republican party?????? What happened to “Buy American?” The Republican party wants America to have the choice of Toyota, Honda, Hyndai, BMW and Mercedes? Have they lost their freakin’ minds??????????
What little is left of the Republican party will become even more diminished after this debacle. Did any of these yahoos, Republican OR Democrat insist on AIG executives work for $1? Did congress bring the executives of wall street before them and ask how they will restructure their companies? NO!!!!!!!!!! Here’s $350 F_CKING BILLION DOLLARS (NOT A LOAN!!!!!) so they can keep their corporate jets flying and send their staffs to the Bahamas! $350 BILLION TO FIX THE CREDIT SYSTEM AND YOU CAN’T BUY A CAR IF YOUR CREDIT SCORE IS BELOW 800! Practically no one has a credit score that good!!!!!!!!!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! ARE THERE NO AMERICANS LEFT IN WASHINGTON DC? ARE THERE ANY PATRIOTS WHO CARE FOR OUR NATION?
WAIT TILL THE TROOPS COME BACK FROM IRAQ AND AFGANISTAN. WHAT WAS THEIR SACRIFICE FOR? MAY GOD AND THE TROOPS FORGIVE US FOR SCREWING UP THIS COUNTRY.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:22 pm)@statik
Hey, remember when you had to go in the shade to play because the Sun would fade the lights and you couldn see your position???….
Aw man I’m crakin up right now. I’m gonna go get me a beer….
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:50 pm)Corkers plan sounds almost like government sponsered bankrupcy. It would actually be better for GM than the bill that came out of the House. The unions won’t like it much though. It also gets rid of the auto czar which is good.
Dec 11th, 2008 (7:55 pm)BofA plans up to 35,000 job cuts in next 3 years ~ AP Thursday December 11, 7:42 pm ET
Bank of America expects to cut up to 35,000 jobs in next 3 years as it absorbs Merrill
NEW YORK (AP) — Bank of America Corp. said Thursday it expects to cut 30,000 to 35,000 jobs over the next three years, as it faces a deteriorating economic environment and tries to absorb Merrill Lynch & Co.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081211/bank_of_america_merrill_layoffs.html
______________________
I’m off to the gym.
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:00 pm)So I am sitting here watching C-SPAN2 senate coverage. What is happening is nothing is happening. Every now and then some page or usher walks in or out of the chamber. Various clerks are sitting and waiting at the center.
Officially it is the “quorum call”. I wonder what they really are doing. Negotiating? Maybe 6 or 8. Where are all the rest, out shopping, eating, sleeping?
Our government is at work?
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:23 pm)Bill Biletorf # 74
99% of what you said after Ford Taurus is correct. However, because US makers get a few platforms right over the years doesn’t make the structural form of the big three’s financials effective. In fact, nothing of what you said contradicts Stas Peterson, except for the “he’s an idiot” part, for which there is no basis in fact. I actually find that what you re both saying is pat of two pieces of the same puzzle.
I think Corkle has hit upon the missing link of the chain in giving the UAW VEBA fund stock instead of cash. That makes them full partners, with skin in the game, instead of just going along for the ride. If approved, then from here on getting the best possible deal means helping GM keep the stock price up, not just getting as much cash as possible in every negotiation.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:23 pm)Kent T:
You might have noticed that the Republicans who are against helping out the Detroit 3 have foreign car manufacturing plants in their states. LIke the Republican Senators from Tennessee and Alabama.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/11/01/auto.south/index.html
A big Nissan plant and the headquarters of Nissan, USA is in a town near Nashville, TN. Alabama has Mercedes and Honda plants. Tennessee will have a big VW plant in Chattanooga, TN in a few years. South Carolina has a BMW plant. Mississippi might have a Toyota plant to build the Prius in a few years. Coincidence? Hmmm ….
The Detroit 3 probably needs to build some plants in the South. The local citizens naturally start to feel good about the companies that are bringing in a bunch of good jobs.
I don’t think Americans are all that loyal to foreign car companies … even in the South where the foreign car plants are. People just want to buy the coolest looking, high quality, highly reliable car they can afford. If GM keeps making cars like this, they’ll have more and more loyal customers that keep coming back for new GM cars as they come out. When GM gets to the top of the “Customer Retention Survey” for several years in a row, I bet just about everyone in America will be proud of them and buy a LOT more of their cars.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6384202/auto-news/survey-says-honda-retains-65-of-new-car-buyers-jd-power-finds/index.html
GM brands like Chevrolet and Cadillac need to be associated in people’s minds with “quality, cool looking car”. A “gotta have” car when you can afford it … especially the Cadillacs. They need to match up very well vs. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, etc.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:24 pm)#145 RB said, So I am sitting here watching C-SPAN2 senate coverage. What is happening is nothing is happening. Every now and then some page or usher walks in or out of the chamber. Various clerks are sitting and waiting at the center.
Officially it is the “quorum call”. I wonder what they really are doing. Negotiating? Maybe 6 or 8. Where are all the rest, out shopping, eating, sleeping?
Our government is at work?
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I gave up on it…am giving up on it. I’m going to the Keg with some friends instead. Huzzah!
The way I understand it, they are considering just putting forward some amendments they have already agreed on. ?? I dunno, I didn’t even know they could do that…or what good it does.
Other than either trying to beat down the UAW or waiting for them to work out some kind of internal union dance, I don’t know what the holdup is.
Either do this thing tonight, or don’t right? They are have done more harm than good by dragging this out if they can’t get it done tonight. Looks like they should have just said they will try to get it done tomorrow and worked without the intense media scrutiny.
Maybe something will be done after I finsh my Keg size sirloin (with side of mushrooms) and tasty beverage (s).
/cheers
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:25 pm)#140 FrankD & #141 KentT:
As “Lucky Jack” Aubery would say, “I am entirely to your way of thinking.”
For some time now, I have been thinking of modestly suggesting that Dr. Dennis consider changing the name of the blog from “GM-Volt.com” to “GM-Deathwatch.com.” Up to now, I have been able to contain this terrible negativity and cynicism. After the events of the last few days, I am coming around to “America-Deathwatch.com.”
I have mentioned this before, so those of you who have suffered through it previously, please forgive me. In the second book of the so-called “Blowback Trilogy”, Professor Chalmers Johnson suggests that we have hollowed out our manufacturing base as a quid pro quo for overseas basing rights for our imperial military.
He further suggests that the cost and international the political fallout of these imperial fantasies will eventually bring America to its knees. He actually believes that it is too late to turn this around, and that we are doomed to decline to second world status, at best. I have always refused to believe that it is really that bad. As I have observed the disgusting political posturing around this auto industry disaster, I am slowly beginning to believe that he is right.
I strongly recommend to bloggers Prof. Johnson’s books, “Blowback”, “The Sorrows of Empire”, and “Nemesis”.
How strange that we all came here because we were looking for a new and better automotive technology. And many of us were hoping for the resurrection of the US car industry. Now we seem to be observing the decline of a great industrial nation through the window of this blog.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:41 pm)#149 noel park notes “Professor Chalmers Johnson suggests that we have hollowed out our manufacturing base as a quid pro quo for overseas basing rights for our imperial military.”
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This kind of thinking is overboard. US manufacturing has not gotten smaller, and it is not smaller as a percentage of world manufacturing.
USA engineering design remains cutting edge, and the US is a leader in innovation. The big change has been in the use of automation, so most manufacturing now requires far less labor input per unit of productivity. The jobs didn’t go overseas, they simply no longer exist. That’s tough on displaced workers, but overall it makes the economy more productive, not less.
Here we are focused on GM and the Volt. It is tempting to start thinking of their fate —- which still is unknown — as if it was equal to all other US manufacturing. The reality is otherwise. The world is tough and competitive, but the USA remains a very strong competitor, whether in engineering or manufacturing.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:45 pm)#149 Noel Park- Don’t loose faith in the ingenuity of the American mind. This Country is on the verge of an incredible awakening. The old guard is truly about to prove themselves an impediment to this Countries advancement. Next year will be a year of even greater challenges and opportunities. I have been watching the Volt with utter excitement and quite honestly never thought GM would develop this technology. I feel that somehow, whether the Senate torpedos this loan to help this industry, Next month will be a new year and a new set of circumstances that we haven’t begun to imagine…i still am expecting to see the Volt.
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:50 pm)So when do we get the next road test of the Volt? British Leyland lasted for years before the assorted parts were sold off. After Rolls Royce was sold off TVR was England’s largest auto manufacturer. Then they were sold off to the Russians, and they made some fine automobiles. Can anybody answer who is England’s largest auto manufacturer now? Morgan?
The factories have not vaporized, they will build Volts and their derivatives. My question is will anybody buy them. With the price of oil down so low it would not make an economic sense to buy one.
Oh yah, the price of oil went up 10% today.
Red HHR (with a sows ear upholstery option)
Dec 11th, 2008 (8:57 pm)This is not a loan of taxpayer money because there no taxpayer money left to loan. You all do remember that the US government has over $10 trillion in debt and the budget deficit is in the billions. Any interest paid by the automakers will in turn be paid to whatever source the government borrows money from. Or perhaps the government will simply create new money, cause more inflation, and create an even more unstable economy.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:19 pm)#63 Bill McManus Says: “Do not support the auto industry bail out! … Bankruptcy is the correct path to drive the required clean up and rebuilding of the auto industry”
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Bankruptcy is normally a good path, but when you buy a car, it’s a lasting deal. You want to know the company will be there 5 years from now. Most surveys say that the stigma of bankruptcy will severely impact car sales.
The best course seems to be the one they’re on. If GM goes belly-up, taxpayers will spend far more on unemployment benefits and lost income tax revenue. The bailout loans are the least amount of risk to the taxpayer.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:21 pm)hi Frank D. #151,
“This Country is on the verge of an incredible awakening. The old guard is truly about to prove themselves an impediment to this Countries advancement.”
_____________________________
Sort of like what happened in the election for president.
+++++++++++++++++
Here’s a 2576×1932 shot of the Volt . Good for a desktop image.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20023%20big.jpg
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:32 pm)‘The clock of life is wound but once,
and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour.
Now is the only time you own.
Live, love, toil with a will.
Place no faith in time.
For the clock may soon be still.’
=D~
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:40 pm)It is clear at this point that Republican senators from the south are opposing bailout because :
1. They want to push US towards a depression. This, they hope, will help them get back to power in 2016. They are mistaken.
2. They want the auto industry to collapse so that foreign automakers (who have assembly plants in their states) will benefit.
Only in the US will this kind of attitude be tolerated. Can you imagine Japan not helping out Toyota / Honda (or Sony/Toshiba) under similar circumstances ?
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:41 pm)Check out Obama’s new Secretary of Energy. Steven Chu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Chu
He has a heck of a resume. It looks like he’ll be the most qualified Secy. of Energy we’ve ever had. He’s a Nobel prize winner. He’s been working on BIOFUELS for several years. I bet he’ll be very helpful to the auto industry as we transition to more “electrified” automobiles like the Volt in the next few years. He might help us quickly transition to next generation biofuels … like “bio-gasoline” made from algae like this company makes … Sapphire Energy.
http://www.sapphireenergy.com/
A future Volt that runs on electricity and inexpensive algae biofuel? A biofuel that comes from an algae growing facility that could be located anywhere in the world? Sounds good to me. The Middle East oil sheik fatcats won’t like it too much though.
The U.S. Government would have to be completely nuts to NOT help our auto companies succeed in getting these revolutionary new electric car technologies and next generation biofuels going. Technologies for cars like the Volt could be a HUGE competitive advantage for America for the next 50+ years if we get a big head start and continuously improve them every year.
Dec 11th, 2008 (9:43 pm)#151 Frank D Says: “Don’t loose faith in the ingenuity of the American mind. This Country is on the verge of an incredible awakening.”
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I believe in America.
Indulge me. Let me tell you a story.
A friend of mine went to Europe. He got a Eurail pass. While he was traveling in Germany, it was hot, so when the train stopped, he went for something cold to drink. Most everyone had the same idea, so the line was long, and he was late. The conductor said he missed the train by 30 seconds. He was pissed. He watched the train sit there for 2 minutes before it left. He thought he was being singled out as a foreigner. But hen a few stops later, the same thing happened to an older German couple, and they just took in in stride. “OK, we missed the train. We’ll get the next one.”
Then he went to Italy. He ended up getting on the wrong train, but it was OK, the conductor worked it out, they switched trains, and the train took off 5 minutes late, but everything worked out. It was all chaotic, but it worked.
The point is that Europe has distinctly different cultures. In America, we have Germans and Italians driving on the same roads. This creates a lot of stress! But the clash of cultures also creates an environment that fosters innovation. Not everyone thinks alike, and that’s OK! So I guess I’m a proud American!!!
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:10 pm)Interesting facts for chewing on:
1)
“GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.”
2)
“GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care ”
3)
“Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers. “
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:28 pm)I believe that what ever doesn’t kill you simply makes you stranger…
). Yes they are…
This bail out is such a concept, if you guys really think GM is in trouble give your head a shake. This is just a ploy and a chance for them to cash in while they can since everyone else is getting bail outs while bush is still in control. Then obama will will save the day again… GM just spent 50B re-tooling and building Green factorys that get special govt incentives. Quite looking at the hockey stats and start doing your homework!
The only thing that scares me is that Chevron (Cobasys) own half of Ovanics, which is partnered with A123( who by the way is getting the battery deal
So tell me are they going to hold the patents on this battery as well?
No… not this time… Its all part of the plan… Big Oil now owns the batteries, and its win win for them.
To all the Haters of GM, what did they ever do to you?
I say go G reaseM onkeys! Yo buy shares Now, and retire in 5 years! EREV is changing N.A.
and this is your chance to get rich.
-oh yea and canada will get Camaro, the bumper and import laws have been harmonized to be the same as USA as of last year.
Don’t believe the Hype.
AONE GE GM CVX
Dec 11th, 2008 (10:30 pm)JEC (me. I hit the dang submit button before I was done)
1)
“GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.”
2)
“GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care ”
3)
“Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers. “
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Labor hours to build a car:
Toyota: 29.9 hours
Nissan: 30 hours
Honda: 31.6 hours
GM: 32.4 hours
Chrysler: 33 hours
Ford: 35 hours
So GM pays about $21/hour more for labor, and if it takes 32.4 hours => $680, plus compared to Toyota this adds 2.5 hours => $172.50 for a total additional cost adder of $852.50 (This agrees closely with a number I think DonC quoted earlier. Sorry Don, sometimes I have to run the numbers before I believe them)
I find this interesting and makes me take a different look at the problem. Maybe the Union cost adder is not as big a problem as I had suspected. I think the major hit is the pension, which I have heard adds a minimum of $1500/car.
Dec 11th, 2008 (11:31 pm)#132 Rashiid Amul
You provided me with 30 minutes of entertainment…sweet.
“http://www.donkeykongonline.com/donkey-kong-online-game.html”
Dec 12th, 2008 (4:55 pm)The UAW has made it clear – no concessions. They would rather be unemployed than take a pay cut. So be it! They may get their wish. With that in mind I cannot see GM surviving.
Dec 12th, 2008 (10:56 pm)#154 Dave G – “Bankruptcy is normally a good path, but when you buy a car, it’s a lasting deal. You want to know the company will be there 5 years from now. Most surveys say that the stigma of bankruptcy will severely impact car sales.”
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I want to help GM, but NOT the UAW. The UAW has resisted all efforts to IMMEDIATELY reduce GM’s costs. Their best “concession” begins in 2011 – maybe. GM needs help now, it won’t get any help from the UAW boss, Mr Smellyfinger (deliberately misspelled due to a complete lack of respect for the useless wanker). GM needs the UAW off its back – now. I’m afraid that Chapter 11 is the best way for GM to scrape the UAW from the bottom of its corporate shoe, and be rid of it – for good.
GM can continue to make cars during the reorganization – and remake its image at the same time. GM can start with a clean slate, and hire new employees. Gm can bring in experts from Japan to show them how to empower their new employees to police quality control. EVERY employee would have the authority to stop the assembly line, if a quality fault was found. GM has been bested by the Japanese – it’s time for GM to adopt their management style (which cannot happen with the UAW), or die a deserved death. “If you can’t beat ‘em…”
Dec 12th, 2008 (11:51 pm)161 Jolt says “To all the Haters of GM, what did they ever do to you?”
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Let’s see – 72 Nova – Wouldn’t start in winter without starting fluid sprayed into the air intake, and running through a large puddle of water would stop the car in its tracks immediately.
74 Nova – Paint began to flake, blister, and fall off after 2 years – rear quarter panels were rusted through within 5 years – brake lights failed so often, I kept spares in the glovebox.
82 Lincoln Town Car – At the time, it was my dream car. However, the climate control never worked right (AC would become full blast heat when going up hills or accelerating. It also began to stop at red lights and stop signs in the hottest days of summer, and would not restart for 5 – 10 minutes. (This greatly endeared me to everyone behind me at the red light). It was Vapor Lock, and the whole fuel delivery system would have to be rerouted away from the exhaust manifold (at my cost, even though Ford engineered the damn thing). Goodbye, Town Car.
I bought a used 82 Dodge Reliant K-car next. I was driving along, and the car kicked, like someone had slammed the brakes for a split second. And this happened over and over. The dealer found the problem – a MAP (mass airflow processor) sensor had gone bad. Then the new MAP sensor went bad in 2 months, and another 2 months, and another 2 months – That car ATE MAP sensors so often, I learned to change them myself. This ended when both the engine’s oil pump began to fail (intermittant oil pressure light)and the transmission began slipping so badly, forward motion was almost impossible. Both happened at 149,000 miles.
At that time, Datsuns (now they are called Nissans) were travelling 200,000, 300,000, sometimes 1,000,000 miles – with OEM equipment. I needed a cheap car, having spent much money repairing my American made cars.
1999 – I bought a Hyundai Elantra – mistake ! It was dependable, but its gas mileage for such a small car was lousy – I got 22 MPG (barely).
I’m getting older now, as my arthritis reminds me. I need something easy to get into and out of. Much research later, I narrowed my choices down to 2 minivans – Chevolet Venture, and Honda Odyssey. Due to my past experience with american cars, I bought the Honda Odyssey. No problems with over 110,000 miles on it.
So you ask, What has GM ever done to me?
GM, Ford, and Chrysler have cost me plenty of money, lost time, and heartache, while I paid and paid to fix THEIR mistakes. Now their crappy reputation has came around and bit them in the ass when they can least afford it. Karma’s a bitch, sometimes. They earned this disaster, one crappy car at a time. Ask Consumer Reports, if you don’t believe me. People remember things like this, when spending their hard earned money.
But don’t you ever, EVER, call me a GM hater, you snibbling little brat. GM earned all the hate they are receiving. I gave GM a chance – TWICE. I gave Ford a chance. I gave Chrysler a chance. THEY let ME down. I owe them NOTHING. Let GM impress me – but they won’t impress me hiding behind the American flag, behind patriotism, or behind a government bailout. Losing the UAW – THAT would impress me. Otherwise, it’s business as usual – closely followed by Chapter 7 liquidation.
Dec 13th, 2008 (12:48 am)If ever there was an industry that deserved to fail it is the American auto industry. Fortunately for them, their failure now could have devastating impact on the US and world economy. So, we should waste a few billion dollars on them for a few months. Then, an organized bankruptcy by summer is their only salvation. The Volt will be surpassed by a better, less expensive more sophisticated EV from from an Asian auto firm.
The Big Three management is interested in their own pay and rewards. The UAW has been allowed to run unchecked. The result, today, is the American automobile…second to those produced in this country by foreign-owned companies. They both should be ashamed of themselves, they have failed our nation.
Dec 13th, 2008 (9:25 am)The US based automakers are too top heavy to make a profitable business any longer. I think the US should “buy up” the “big? three”, do complete overhaul, run them to make a profit, then sell it back to the private sector. Either that or just put the UAW on salary and close the factory doors. Closing the factory doors would mean the taxpayers at least don’t have to waste as much money paying for idiot CEOs. “Bailout” or loan it will amount to the same thing – more money lost with NOTHING to show but a fat paycheck for the CEOs. (Yup, I’m pissed at how upper management and the Gov. have handled this. They are out of touch with reality and the automaker’s management are like spoiled brats!)