AND 
Tesla’s CEO Prices the Model S Electric Sedan at $57,499 But Says Needs Government Assistance to Launch it
The Chevy Volt was born in 2006 when GM vice chair Bob Lutz took a look at what Tesla Motors was doing with their all electric roadster and determined if they can do it so could GM.
Recently Tesla Motors delivered their 100th roadster despite considerable upheaval both financially and from personnel.
Tesla also intends to build a sedan as well, the so-called S class with hopes for delivery in 2010, the same year as the Volt
At an interview in California, Tesla CEO Elon Musk publicly disclosed that the upcoming all-electric Model S sedan will be priced at $57,499. The car will be a four dour five-seater. He said a driveable mule will appear by the end of this year and a working prototype by the end of February.
Musk took a chance to criticize the Chevy Volt stating “It is not very exciting. It has slow acceleration.” The Volt is expected to do 0 to 60 in 8.5 to 9 seconds, and as per GM’s Frank Weber was designed to be “on the sportier side.”
The Model S is rumored to do 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds and get 240 miles on the charge. It will not have a range-extender.
Musk also went on to say that Tesla is definitely partnering with a third party to eventually deliver a sub $30,000 model. No word on who that partner is but reports speculate it might be Daimler-Benz.
The image above is an unofficial speculation of the car created by RoadandTrack.
Following the footsteps of the Detroit 3 Musk also told reporters that Tesla needs a $350 million loan from the US government to be able to launch the car.
He said “we can’t move forward with that without a major amount of capital, If we don’t get any government funding then what we need to do is we need to wait until the capital markets recover, which could be a year or two years from now.”
Source (Greentech Media)
105 Responses to “Tesla’s CEO Prices the Model S Electric Sedan at $57,499 But Says Needs Government Assistance to Launch it”
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December 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Still can’t drive from San Fran to L.A.
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December 9th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
It looks pretty good, but until you can get 1,000 miles on an 8-hour charge using a 120-volt outlet (for cross-country road trips), I’d rather have the range extender.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Too bad they can not make the $30k version look like this one and bring it out sooner. It is pretty cool.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
What 60 grand! What no plug! What, no range extender!
NPNS nuff said…..looks cool though, thats where it ends, buh-bye.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Hmmmm… looking at the photo more closely, it looks like an impractical concept car designed to make people drool and fantasize. Look at the clearance between the fenders and tires… you can’t turn the steering wheel without rubbing the car’s paint. Suspension travel? Nil.
I’m sure that when the production version is revealed, there will be debates on whether the concept or production version looks better.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
The system is working. Sure looks like a physician’s car to me. Good for you Tesla.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/tesla%20car.jpg
=D~
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Nice grille opening. I wonder what the Cd of that is?
$57,499? Nope.
Sub $30K with 240 mile range? Then I’ll take another look, depending on what GM does in the meantime. I’d still prefer a Volt though. A pure electric would have to be my commuter car. My wife is a poster girl for “range anxiety”, and won’t even consider it.
Spare me the 0-60 times. Not the point. How about 0-60 8.5-9 and 300 mile range? Much better, IMHO.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Without a range extender the Tesla is not in the same league as the Chevy Volt. Sure, there will be a place and market for pure electrics, but for most Americans the range extender will be the deal maker. No lifestyle change required. No worries about running out of juice. Drive as usual. Anywhere, anytime. Just plug it in when you get home. That’s it. Nice. That’s the genius behind the Volt.
GO GM!
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
#4 Jerry
What NPNS nuff said
It has a plug.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
#8 PJ Says: “Without a range extender the Tesla is not in the same league as the Chevy Volt. There will be a place and market for pure electrics, but for most Americans the range extender will be the deal maker. No lifestyle change required. No worries about running out of juice. Drive as usual. Nice. That’s the genius behind the Volt.”
————————————————————————————-
Well said!
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
#7 noel park Says: “Nice grille opening. I wonder what the Cd of that is?”
————————————————————————————-
From the article:
“The image above is an unofficial speculation of the car created by RoadandTrack.”
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I don’t get it. Almost no one drives more than 100 miles a day, so 99% of the people buying this car will be paying for a battery with a range much greater than what they need? And on the rare occasions when the average person wants to go on a road trip, 240 miles is probably not going to be enough range. The range extender vehicle for $20k less seems like a much better solution to me. Having said that, I wish the Volt had a slightly bigger battery–one that would go maybe 60-80 miles instead of 40.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
hi MDDave #12,
“The range extender seems like a much better solution to me.”
____________________________
Agreed, E-REV is king. But as GM goes mismanaged, and the release date of E-REV technology is in doubt, the world keeps spinning. This is the American way. Not the bailout way.
=D~
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I think the Chevy Volt nails it much better than Tesla for many reasons. The issues with range anxiety for a pure EV are extremely obvious.
Charging flexibility is another big deal. If you do the math, the ability to :
a) use any regular outdoor extension cable and
b) charge fully overnight
limits the maximum charge swing on the battery to around 8kWH. This equates to around 40 miles per charge, which just happens to magically cover 80% of the population’s daily driving.
So it appears that GM has stumbled onto the perfect solution. I hope Extended Range EVs with 40 miles per charge will be produced by all car manufacturers, and become the vehicle of choice for most drivers.
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December 9th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
240 mile range? I think that takes care of 99 percent of the populace. Even if you are planning a long trip, after 240 miles you can plug in and stretch your legs! I really like this vehicle but at 57K, it still gives me pause….
http://oilfreenow.blogspot.com
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Wow, Only 57,499!
Still beyond affordable to 80% of people out there….and even if you can, you can’t get loans for it.
Bring out a sub-30,000 dollar model, that is sold in Canada, then I can begin to look at it.
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
I like that concept. I just hope charging technology starts ramping up. If I can get a full charge in 4 hours, I’d be a happy man.
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
cool speculation photo. Looks like a cross between a nissan and a mazda.
I don’t get the nay saying. The more options out there the better and as more people drive pure ev’s I imagine the range anxiety will begin to disappear especially if it is getting 240 miles per charge. One anxiety I would have about a car that supposedly gets that many miles at this point is how quickly you will be running your battery into the ground with deep discharges going that far.
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
NPNS, NERNS!
Best regards,
D’Artagnon
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I’ll gladly pay the extra $25k for the Tesla. At least Tesla executives have a brain and the company will be around in another 3 years. GM – not so much.
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Heh. You guys are funny.
Tesla just proposed 6 times the range of the Volt, 1/3 faster accelleration, most likely better looks, most certainly less complexity and all for only perhaps 1/3 more than the Cruze-Volt.
If Tesla offered a 1000 mile range with 0-60 of 5s for $30,000 some fool would probably still feel compelled to post “But what if I want to go 1200 miles? NPNS!”
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Go Prius plug-in 2010.
I can tell you if Toyota launches the Prius 9miles range plug-in around $22K, then both the Volt and Tesla won’t fly.
Tesla probably would win more people because it is closer to a luxury item.
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December 9th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
This excites me, who doesn’t care for a little friendly rivalry? I hope these moves from Tesla inspires more change in GM to release something cheaper, better performance, and more innovative. I want an all-out ELECTRIC CAR ARMS RACE! I want to see Americans duke it out for the best and let it stand up and hold its own against the competition coming from Europe and Asia.
I have plans to move to the SF Bay area to watch this unfold on the front row. Excuse me while I change jobs and aim to afford a Fisker Karma… in case I fail I can still afford a Volt or that $30K Tesla…
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
See GM you can make an electric vehicle sporty and get decent range. That’s why you’re going broke. Idiots.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
More competition…nice,
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
@RonaldK
“At least Tesla executives have a brain…”
Bringing out a new concept product and saying it will require Govt assistance to launch even before a prototype can be seen and priced well above any Joe the plumber budget is smart? WTF?
If they only had a brain they’d realize it’s cost prohibitive. Now there’s a company who hasn’t learned from anyone’s mistakes.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Back to the question of the loan.
Yes! This is a good investment for the U.S. because Tesla is proven, they have a lot of their own money already into the operation, they are going to be creating green jobs, they are going to be working to perfect battery technology so it can be practical in all environments, etc. A perfect match for what our country needs to be doing.
Obama is about to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on projects. We need that money to go towards projects that will make us number one in the coming green economy. I feel this 350 million loan would be a fantastic part of that New Deal pie.
APPROVED… with conditions – Tesla must also draw up and plan for the $30,000 version. We need a practical EV for the masses. They must also use newer technology batteries. These old, unsafe lithium-ion batteries they are using now must go. They need to stop wasting their time on old, unsafe lithium-ion technology. The government must help to make the newer battery technology more cost effective during the critical infancy period.
Not just tax and spend! It’s deficit spending towards investments that will make the U.S. a leader in the new green economy. It’s off to the races folks, many countries are also investing into their futures. If we don’t keep up or exceed, we will fall back.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
#21 GXT Says: “Tesla just proposed 6 times the range of the Volt, 1/3 faster acceleration, most likely better looks, most certainly less complexity and all for only perhaps 1/3 more than the Cruze-Volt.”
————————————————————————————–
An all-electric range of over 40 miles is meaningless for most people, since 80% of the population drive less than 40 miles per day.
The total range of the Volt is infinite, given that gas stations exist everywhere.
The 240 mile range of the Tesla varies dramatically depending on how you drive. If you drive it like a sports car, you may get as little as 1/2 the specified range.
The Volt will cost around $30,000 after tax credits., so it’s more like 1/2 the price of the Tesla-S.
Most importantly, you can plug in the Volt anywhere. The Volt doesn’t need any special wiring for the charger port. A regular $20 extension cord from Home Depot plus any standard 110v outlet will work. In this respect, the Tesla-S is more complex for the consumer.
So I guess the only thing I agree with you on is the looks, but that’s really low on my list of priorities.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Many times the devil is in the details.
A recently discovered complaint in the way Tesla implemented their electronics is, when the car (sports car) is turned OFF, it uses as much electricity as running 2 good sized refrigerators!
Also, last I read, Tesla’s sports car has a 5 year prorated battery warranty. That’s nothing next to the Volt’s – 10 year, 150,000 mile bat.
But I am still pulling for Tesla to survive. There is a niche the sedan will fill.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Of interest off the wire:
Deal reached in principle on $15B auto bailout
WASHINGTON (AP) — Weary Democratic congressional leaders and White House officials agreed in principle Tuesday on a $15 billion bailout of U.S. automakers that would give the government extraordinary power to restructure the floundering industry. But the rescue faced snags as Republicans raised deep concerns.
A breakthrough came when negotiators reached a compromise to require the czar to revoke the loans and deny any further federal aid to automakers that don’t strike a deal with labor unions, creditors and others to ensure their survival by next spring — essentially pushing them into bankruptcy.
A further stumbling block was Democrats’ refusal to scrap language, vehemently opposed by the White House, that would force the carmakers to drop lawsuits challenging tough emissions limits in California and other states.
That measure “kills the deal,” said Dan Meyer, Bush’s top lobbyist.
Senior Democratic aides acknowledged as much Tuesday and said they expected the provision to ultimately be dropped.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081209/congress_autos.html
======================================
#120 Statik said (in a old thread),
December 8th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
The clown moment is that they have to drop their lawsuits against state emission standards. While personally I support those initiatives, forcing compliance from the ‘big 2.8′ will cost them a heck of a lot of money to get up to par….I guess they could just ignore those laws completely and hope for the best. (I’m guess this is the clause the White House is having a problem with).
http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/08/key-senator-suggests-gms-ceo-should-leave-as-bailout-bill-expected-today/#comments
=================================
So, as mentioned earlier, the ludacris ‘we want you to submit plans to be viable, but also not try and stop us from making you spend several extra billion dollars in the next couple years to meet state requirements on efficiency at the same time’ conundrum looks to be solved, lol.
And giving/making the ‘czar’ have the juice to shut it all down if benchmarks are not made.
/easy, lol
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
I love it!
Tesla is basically telling the Big 2.8 “Hey, we could use some bail out money to, but if not we will wait until the market picks up” .
Now that sounds to me like a definite snub at GM et al.
Suspect they are trying to put a nail GM, and make the govt think twice about bailing them out, and not helping others (I think I have said it enough times, and here Tesla is doing just what I suspected. So, now who decides how big a company has to be before getting some of that bailout cash?)
I like it, no I LOVE IT! You go Tesla….
I would definitely buy an all electric and the NPNS does not apply to me. But, I also would not shy away from a plug. I basically want an electric car at a price I can afford with the range I need. The Telsa fits at less than $30k , and the Volt would to if they can sell it for less than $30k.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Open competition is the only way we will get long EV range at a lower cost. Hopefully we can get our hands on the Volt under $30k before the market picks up and the shoots back up to $4per gal.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Who exactly is going to buy this outside of a few rich techies and rich enviro-nuts? I think most of the buyers will be wealthy because a 240 mile range without extender is completely out of the question as a primary vehicle for most people.
Yeah, yeah, most people never drive over 100 miles per day. Those statistics don’t matter to car buyers. There are lots of studies proving that most buyers just won’t purchase a car that can’t carry them on their annual trip to the beach, annual trip to grandmas, or annual trip to the wherever. For the vast majority of buyers, unless gas prices get Truly outrageous, a 240 mile range is a major DEAL BREAKER.
This means that just like the Tesla roadster, buyers of this car will own it as their second, third, or fourth vehicle. No, you technically won’t have to be rich to buy this car, but combined with “real” vehicles you’ll also own before even considering this vehicle, yeah, most of the owners will be rich.
The rumors I had been hearing about this car strongly suggested the Tesla sedan WAS to have an ICE extender. I suspect they left that part out because the internal combustion back up engine is very hardest part of the Volt. Consider that the Volt’s ICE has to power the car fully and completely, even and especially when the battery is flat. It can’t just be a small generator to juice the battery, it has to be an engine capable of fully powering the car indefinitely. That’s a tough hurdle, obviously one requiring too much investment for Tesla in these tough economic times.
Clearly, Volt will be a full generation of technical sophistication ahead of the Tesla design. The Volt will do this while being cheaper and a lot more usable. That is, if GM can make it to 2011.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
I doubt Tesla will sell a 240 mile Model S for $57,499. In the past they have said the base model will have 165 mi range, and that 240 and 300 mile versions will be sold also, for a significantly higher price.
These are ambitious specs and pricing, but more power to them if they can do it. They did deliver the Roadster with almost the exact specs that were originally promised.
However, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out they they under estimated their costs on both the Roadster and the Model S. Elon Musk has publicly complained that the founders underestimated the Roadster’s costs by about $40K.
I’m not an Elon fan, but I feel the same way about the Volt’s 0-60 mph time. If it can’t do it in six or seven seconds, then I’m likely to keep my less expensive 5-passenger car, which can.
GSP
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
So now we get to watch our well oiled auto manufacturers, assisted by our well oiled politicians, suck up $15 billion of our tax dollars.
I can tell you how this story ends, and my crystal ball is still in the shop.
Nice.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Dave G 28
The Tesla Roadster and Tesla S each being fully electric qualify for the same federal rebates as the Volt. California and Washington State have their own incentives above and beyond for full Electrics. Most folks that will pay 57 k for a car will already have an ICE vehicle for longer trips. I say the more the merrier and good for Tesla which along with a few other makers may have the task of rebuilding the soon to be irreparably disrupted (defunct?) US auto industry.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Ok Lyle here is the next poll question:
Do you think Tesla should get a $350 million dollar loan from the govt with the same terms as the big 2.8?
How do you argue against this?
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
ummm, @34….
First, people who spend $57K on a car don’t necessarily need their car to go to grandma’s once a year, they fly
Second, people who spend $57K on a car usually have more than one car, should they choose to drive more than 240 miles.
Third, to everyone doubting the viability of a 240 mile electric range car, what are you thinking? You sound as bad as the Volt critics who question whether or not it can get up hills. If you need more than 240 miles out of your car routinely and you actually care about the environment, BUY A VW JETTA BLUMOTION. Since it gets double the highway fuel economy or more of the Volt on long trips, and seeing how many of those long trips you plan on taking, I think you would actually serve your wallet and the environment a favor by buying one of those and filling it up with bio diesel.
Last, this car will no doubt look much sleeker and better than the volt. I want to be all gung ho and cheer on the volt’s styling, waiting for it to grow on me, but no…it looks like a bad Acura TL from the front, and sort of like a squatted pontiac aztek from the back with squinty tail lamps, very old school subaru. I wish I could like it more. For the extra $30,000, I’d rather drive something I actually think looks good, it would just be a bonus that I’d be fossil fuel independent. End of story.
…and I’m completely with statik below me. I want this car last week.
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December 9th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
On the subject of the Tesla Model S:
Sold…hook me up. Where can I send my deposit to? Crap…can’t buy this either, bummer.
Four doors, looks wicked awesome, goes fast and goes 240 miles and does it all electric. This is the car I want, this is my demographic. Too bad it wasn’t a reality.
I can’t believe no one has said it yet, but $57,499 =$49,999 after the rebate (as the source article mentions right at the top), lol. If we are going to keep discounting the Volt’s MSRP, we have to do it here too.
So if we are comparing the ‘Model S’ to the Volt, the difference is likely only $17,000. That car looks $17K better, performs $17K better and no matter how you drive it, you aren’t buying foreign oil and your not visting the pump.
The litmus test is to strip them down to brass tax, forget about even getting to the EV component (argue how you like, but 240 miles EV range is better than 40 EV/300+ gas…240 all EV is well out of 95% of people’s anxiety range that are looking at electric propulsion as a option). Put them both in a room, pretend they are both gas operated and look at what do you have? How do the cars stack up? Ask ‘Joe Schmo’ who has been living in a cave the last two years and doesn’t know Tesla or the Volt from a hold in the groung which one he likes/would buy…and what the price of either one is.
The Volt doubles as a fancy Cruze and the ‘Model S’ could be BMW’s next sport sedan offering. The Volt would be worth about 20K tops in gas only…the Model S looks like 45K+.
As for the ‘needs government assistance’ to launch it…don’t they all now? Heeh. That being said, I wouldn’t give them a penny if I was the gov’t.
Personally, my heart says, ‘build it,so I can have it’…my head says, “the government would be crazy to spend taxpayers dollars on a project by a unfounded automaker trying to sell a $57,000 electric cars when gas might hit a $1/gallon again…reasonably, how many would they have to sell to give that money back? 150,000? C’mon.”
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
In the long run battery production capacity will limit electric car production levels.
Based on battery size for every fancy tesla vehicle 5 volt batteries could have been built. The volt will allow people to eliminate as much as 80% of their gas consumption and many people more than 95%, while the tesla will allow people to eliminate 100%. Do the math, 5 cars reducing 80% of gasoline consumption is much better for oil independence than just one car not using any gasoline.
Tesla will have to start building range extenders and reduce the range because right now they are like the stupid hollywood lefties they are selling their cars to, greedy, hypocrites, who don’t really want to do what’s right but they want to look good. Anyone who wants more than 40 miles all electric is just greedy and will only make sure that fewer people have electric vehicles. Once all new cars have at least 40 miles all electric with range extenders than I can see value in building some pure EVs, otherwise based on the math and limits of the industry a pure EV will end up indirectly forcing more pollution to be produced and oil consumed.
I’d like tesla a lot more if they actually built their cars, one could say it is an american made car and be proud but they can’t even build cars and now it looks like all of their models will be built in other countries. I’ll stick with the better car, the volt.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
#12 MDDave
They actually wanted to do a range extended model initially, but in the end decided it was more complicated than just a pure BEV (a range extended having a smaller pack will require batteries with more power density to account for less cells and better cycle life to account for smaller range of the pack and both require more expensive batteries. Then you have the range extender and generator adding to cost. In the end it might actually be cheaper to have a larger battery pack). If you look at the Fisker Karma, which is range extended like the Volt, it costs $87k. So that’s $30k MORE not $20k less than the same with the BEV would cost. The Fisker Karma matches up exactly to Model S, same 0-60 in 6 seconds means they are both sports sedans rather than just the sporty 0-60 in 8 seconds in the Volt. Both are also mid-sized 4 door coupes rather than a compact sedan like the Volt.
For a lot of people the 240 mile range is perfect so that even if they drive it like a sports car they don’t have to fear running out of AER in daily driving, esp. as in the future charging stations will become more numerous to accommodate EVs. If EVs and PHEVs are to see a future we have to start building EV infrastructure, including rapid chargers. Remember for the Volt the EV side is useless for people who live in apartments, if you hold the attitude that there should be no change in infrastructure then it will stay that way, and we’ll never realize the full potential of the EV drivetrain.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
#40 law
Huh?
Tesla’s power units use commodity laptop batteries. If a shortage is created among the millions sold, it will be computers not Chevy Volts.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
@ Jeff
If you’d read my entire post, you’d have seen that I agree with you. I was talking about the AVERAGE buyer. I said that the vast majority of buyers for a car like the Tesla will be RICH. And there may not even be many of them.
While a single 57k car is not totally out of reach for the upper middle class. The fact that it cannot make the annual trip to the beach, annual trip to grandma’s or annual trip to wherever, mandates that the Tesla will have to be second, third, or fourth vehicle.
Those shopping for a primary vehicle won’t be even remotely interested in a car with a hard 240 mile range limit, even though they rarely drive that far in a single day.
This means that the upper middle class that COULD afford the Tesla S, won’t buy it. Even at 57k, the lack of a range extender SEVERELY limits the market of the vehicle.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
“… Tesla needs a $350 million loan from the US government to be able to launch the car.”
——————————————————————————————————————————
Joking of course.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
D Lo Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
#4 Jerry
What NPNS nuff said
It has a plug.
Woops, my bad, I see the plug hanging off the back end… oh that’s the pull string to wind it up. lol
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
@Emm
You said a $57K Model S won’t sell, and I’m just disagreeing with you. I believe that it will sell, and sell quite well. The size of the mid-size luxury market (535i, e350, lexus gs-ls, infiniti g-m, a6) is not small…over the next to years in this economy no doubt it will shrink, but in the recovery by 2010-11, it will rebound. I guarantee you that this car would be competitive with those. You never specified that you were exclusively talking about the middle class, obviously they’re not buying a $50-60K car, hell I don’t think they even want a volt if it’s $33K.
You simply said you didn’t think Tesla could sell this car. I am simply disagreeing, strongly. If this car were to be brought to market in that price range with good styling and luxury appointments, I think it would demolish the mid-range luxury market.
As for the middle class, they’re waiting for the sub-30K electric cars. And to the guy who said the $22K prius with 9 miles electric, I don’t really know if I agree. I think the $18K Honda Insight interest that buyer first…$4,000 savings is $4,000 (and at 70mpg, you’re waiting years until breakeven).
I’m not angry with you or anything Emm
just trying to say I think the potential for this market is the short to mid range sweet spot of the electric car industry, the $45-$65K luxury market. If we could convert all of them to electric in the next 5-10 years, that would be a good chunk of carbon. I am sure that battery technology will evolve in the next few years to allow for different materials to be tapped so that the supply will only increase in years to come. Saying that we’re going to run out of battery technology is like saying that computers had a max theoretical potential in the 1980s, it’s amazing what a little investment in R&D will yield. Who knows, maybe EEStor has something up their sleeve…cough.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
#33 Emm
Who exactly is going to buy this outside of a few rich techies and rich enviro-nuts? I think most of the buyers will be wealthy because a 240 mile range without extender is completely out of the question as a primary vehicle for most people.
=======================================
#38 Jeff
ummm, @34….
First, people who spend $57K on a car don’t necessarily need their car to go to grandma’s once a year, they fly
Second, people who spend $57K on a car usually have more than one car, should they choose to drive more than 240 miles.
Third, to everyone doubting the viability of a 240 mile electric range car, what are you thinking? You sound as bad as the Volt critics who question whether or not it can get up hills
==================================
There you go Jeff. I think you hit it on the head. Buyers of either of these cars are unlikely to have only one car…for many this will be car number 3 or 4.
Again, there is at most probably only 17K between these two fictitious cars (of which neither will be produced if the gov’t doesn’t pay for it). 17K is not much when you consider where the ‘less expensive’ car starts from. We aren’t talking the Hyundai Accent starting at $9,995 here. These are not ‘mass cars for the people’…that kind of thing comes a decade after EVs start rolling out.
I think there is a misconception that the Tesla is for the wealthy and the Volt is not. I guess people are half right, the Tesla is for the wealthy…and so is the Volt. If you want to play the EV game, you need to have cash and a lot of it.
This economy has changed the game. The definition of ‘expensive’ car has gotten a lot lower.
There is not a heck of a lot of people with $40,000-$57,000 in disposable cash lying around the house (arguably $7,500 less if you can get it in your driveway before the credits all get eaten up by Toyota and maybe Mitsu)…and if they don’t have the cash in the sofa cushions, they need a FICO score north of 800 to get a loan to buy it (about 10-12% of the population have that). So MAYBE 10% of the people can afford to buy a Volt and only 8% could get the Model S…big difference.
For a lot of people it is only now dawning on them. “If you can’t pay for the Volt in cash, your probably not getting one”…because there will be no access to financing, you can’t stroll into GM and the only hassle is waiting the 15 mins for GMAC to approve you anymore.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Just one more reason to buy a Lotto ticket after work.
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
All I’m gonna say is that its roughly a 560 mile trip (one way) to go see my family this Christmas…..
That means to do it in an electric car I’ll need a range extender. (I only wish I could do it THIS year in an electric car!!!)
No matter what anyone wants to say, GM has the best plan to usher in the electric car era, and it’s called the VOLT
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December 9th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
@ Jeff
I strongly disagree. I do NOT believe there will be a lot of people interested in a car with the Tesla S’s specs. GM, Tesla and others have done a lot of market research on this. The research indicates that the vast majority of car buyers say they simply won’t buy a vehicle with a hard limited range.
There are quite a lot of upper middle class people with “A” 50 to 60k car. No, they don’t have multiple 50k cars, but they do have a single expensive car.
The thing is, there are a LOT MORE upper middle class people than outright wealthy people, a whole lot more. By limiting the vehicle’s range to a hard 240 miles, most upper middle class buyers won’t even consider the Tesla. Hell, I don’t think most people on the Volt waiting list would want a car with the Tesla’s specs, even if the costs were the same. The hard range limit would scare them off.
Clearly, Tesla had planned to and wanted to include a range extender in the S. Their surveys certainly told them exactly what I’m saying, that a hard 240 mile limit severely limits the marketability of the vehicle
My take is that they simply couldn’t afford the truly tremendous costs involved with developing an ICE extender. So they’ve completely abandoned the mass market Tesla S concept in favor of a small, (perhaps tiny) niche vehicle targeted to a few wealthy buyers, just like Tesla’s current vehicle.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:11 am
http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/12/japan-becomes-a.html
One half of Japanese cars are electric by 2020! Really- they can make this happen in less than 12 years!
Wake up America- it is time for a big change and we should be able to build our electric future as well.
Tax fuel, make the changes, get it done. When will we see the light! Oil prices do influence behavior, and the behavior is what we need to change. Starting to see larger SUV’s moving again- what a bunch of fools.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:17 am
Emm,
I disagree with you about the hard cap being a turn-off here. I would say most drivers with a $50K+ car have access to another car, be it an SUV, or a convertible. There is no where I am going that I need more than 100 miles a day. Hell I could drive across the entire state of New York and not even need the range of this car. Anyone who can afford this car is not saying, oh damn, 240 miles is not enough, except maybe you? Why wouldn’t you just rent a car for a weekend, I don’t get it. What scenario are you foreseeing that precludes one from rationally using this as a day to day luxury car? Do you seriously insist that most buyers of this car only have one vehicle?
On top of that, the cache of driving an electric car propels this car into its own league. I’m not saying you’re flat out wrong and arguing, I’m just trying to understand how you’re thinking this through. I really want this car to work.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:28 am
“If we don’t get any government funding then what we need to do is we need to wait until the capital markets recover, which could be a year or two years from now.”
King Jaffe Joffer said it best, “then let them wait!”
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:35 am
To Jeff and Emm’s conversation. The Cadillac CTS Sedan has a base MSRP of $49K. The exact same price as this thing. It gets 16 mpg in the city and 25 mpg on the highway. It has 260 hp, so you’re talking a little less power, same up front cost, and a lot more gas money over the long term in a Cadillac. You can check it here if you don’t believe me.
http://www.cadillac.com/currentoffers/?zip=97401
With the 18 gallon fuel tank, you could get somewhere around 290 miles of range on a tank. For me and my family, we have a Toyota Camry that we drive around town and commute with, and that once or twice a year we are driving to see relatives we take our minivan because it fits our family better anyway. Does this mean our Camry is superfluous? There’s no reason having a Tesla sedan and one other car or van or truck depending on your circumstances isn’t sufficient. I sure would get out and drive a lot more and see people more often if I knew it cost about 1 cent per mile.
The only real disadvantage Tesla has is that the longevity of the batteries is pretty suspect until they can be further developed or at least proven to last 10 years or so. Remember that these transmissions last practically forever so replacing a $3000 battery every 10-12 years shouldn’t be such a shock. My family has replaced 3 or 4 transmissions in the last 10 years on our cars costing an average of $2000 each. That’s just how cars are. Tesla’s probably overall require a lot less maintenance I would imagine.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:41 am
@Emm
What’s to say the first car can’t be a used one or a older one. It could even be a more practical smaller SUV or wagon/hatchback which is more useful for long trips. A longer range EV can be used as primary daily driver.
I think it’s going to attract the same crowd that that bought the CLS ($68k), which sells 60k annually worldwide. Tesla only plans 20k annually worldwide (remember they are not only aiming at the US market like the Volt). That crowd won’t worry about range too much b/c it’s not like don’t have access to another car. The styling will make or break this car, but I don’t think there’s too much for them to worry about in terms of market if the styling is on par with their Roadster. Of course contenders like the Panamera, Rapide, are emerging, but the pricing is higher.
The reason they ditched the range extender is because it wasn’t optimal for their company. It would have diluted their brand, which was supposed to push full no-compromise BEVs. It would have required them to switch to more expensive batteries, also to do more R&D for the range extender mode and made to harder to tune for performance (we had this discussion before on the Volt), and require more maintenance resources. Basically it would have just been more complicated.
@omnimoeish
To be honest, the battery will cost more like $20k (though price is decreasing around 8% a year and with energy density improving). And their estimated life is more like 5 years, 100k miles. However, judging by the Roadster, maintenance is virtually non-existent, only tires, coolant (brakes will be used a lot less too with regen). There are very few moving mechanical parts to fail. Basically the battery is the big cost (though it’s likely to come down in the next few years). That’s the major negative of Tesla using commodity cells. The pack gets more range for a lower price, but the long term shelf life isn’t as good. (Though of course the battery will just lose range over time, not be completely worthless
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:47 am
mmm only need $350 million loan.
compare that to billions + of dollars for big 3
shouldn’t have any problem getting that loan.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Here are my open question :
Battery is weak part of volt and they say battery is in development for even 40 miles range.
How others promise 240 miles ?
On the other hand mini also gives a high range.
This means to me – may be others are lieing or GM is lieing.
Which one is true ?
One more question on transmission : is volt going to have CVT or dual clutch 6 step auto transmission or some electronic transmission ?
Was reading on CVT and found no GM cars have it now but civic and altima (most nissan models ) have its fuel efficent.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:58 am
If you’ve never driven an EV then you might think that a 240 mile range is without problems, but you can burn 10 kWh in short order. I’d rather pay another $10K and have an E-REV. As for Statik’s question of which car to buy: I look at this car and think I’d just as soon have a Karma. Then I look at the price of the Karma and think the responsible choice is the Volt. Then I look at the S and think it’s a nicer alternative. Then again a souped up Aptera would be tres cool. So many fantasy choices ….
On an entirely different tack, one problem Tesla, and any new company for that matter, will have is manufacturing a new car is extremely difficult and expensive. It might be interesting to take one of the existing companies, say Chrysler, which doesn’t have much in its pipeline, and have them manufacture for others. That’s the model which really worked in the chip fabrication business. It separates innovation and design from manufacturing expertise, which is a good thing because it’s very difficult to do both.
There are innovative companies like Tesla, Fisker, or Aptera that have fine ideas but little manufacturing expertise.
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:58 am
2009 Cadillac Escalade Hybrid $71,915.
Have enough $ left over for a photovoltaic array.
=D~
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December 10th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Statik@47 said in part:
…”For a lot of people it is only now dawning on them. “If you can’t pay for the Volt in cash, your probably not getting one”…because there will be no access to financing, you can’t stroll into GM and the only hassle is waiting the 15 mins for GMAC to approve you anymore.”
Given the 1 1/2 to 2 year window before the Volt’s wheels hit the road, isn’t it possible (or even likely) that the credit crunch would have at least eased? I know GMAC is s.o.l., but I hope that SOMEONE will be lending by then. I do think that you hit the nail squarely with the markedly lower amount covered by the term “expensive” though. Any money I have left invested is (and always has been) in what HAD been considered very conservative (preservation) funds, and THEY have shrunk by a third. I’m just tying a knot and holding on.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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December 10th, 2008 at 1:22 am
What Tesla has been able to do is make a really hot electric vehicle, that is actually available, years earlier than anyone else. Ok, yeah, its expensive – but it looks like it is needs no lubrication because it absolutely oozes sex appeal. Kudos Tesla.
Everyone wants a sexy practical plugin – y’hear big 3?
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December 10th, 2008 at 1:42 am
@ stopcrazypp
You’re simply mistaken. Here in the US, many studies have proven that prospective car buyers are very much opposed to range limited vehicles. Sure, there are a few electric car fans who are not all all turned off by a 240 range, they are in a very small minority.
You can tell people all day long that they’ll rarely if ever use a range of over 200 miles, they’ll still refuse to buy a car that is range limited. When every other car on the market has an effectively UNLIMITED range, (gas stations every few miles) people simply won’t buy a range limited vehicle.
It’s not just the 240 mile range, it’s the fact that they can’t just drop by a gas station and fill up when they’re running low.
It’s the fact that if they forget to charge it one evening or the power goes out, they may not have enough juice to get to work.
It’s the fact that if they forget to charge and are too far from home, they can’t just go to a gas station, they’ll be stranded.
It’s the fact that those when an all electric vehicle is down to those last 30 or 40, it makes many drivers terribly nervous. Vehicles with limited range and an inability to fast charge scare consumers. It’s a fact, GM’s studies proved it, which is why they’re not building a fully electric car.
It’s true that when battery technology improves so that vehicles can be quick-charged AND there are a reasonable number of places at which to quick-charge these vehicles, the demand for ICE extenders will fade away.
Until that time, no completely electric car is likely to make even a tiny, minuscule, dent in the car market. Maybe a few thousand units per year in the US, that’s if it’s a fantastic vehicle. Just a tiny droplet in the overall US car market.
And no, I don’t for a minute believe that Tesla dropped the range extender because it “diluted their brand”. In fact, I’d read that Elon Musk went to the wall in FAVOR of a range extender.
My read was that Eberhard was Tesla’s an electric romantic, Musk being far more of a pragmatist. Eberhard is no longer there, rumors suggest the break was specifically because he was so violently opposed to the ICE extender. This strongly suggests that the reason the S will be fully electric has nothing do do with Tesla’s devotion to fully electric vehicles, and has everything to do with simple financial realities.
The hard truth is that the range extender and associated electronics make up the very hardest, most complex, and most expensive part of designing the Volt. The Volt design, that of an electric car plus an ICE extender is easily a full generation of complexity and difficulty greater than that of a simply electric vehicle.
The hard truth is that a sedan with an ICE extender WAS Tesla’s plan for the S. A very expensive plan in a market without credit availability. A doomed plan.
I don’t at all blame Tesla for removing the extender from the S. It’s easy to see why Tesla couldn’t afford to design the vehicle they really wanted. Still, it’s a vehicle with a very, very limited market niche. I hope they sell enough to make it worthwhile.
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December 10th, 2008 at 2:04 am
“a sub $30,000 model”
Make these cards affordable for the masses and whom ever is making them will make tons of money.
Off the sbuject a bit – another reason to get these electric cars on the road… see cnn.com article concerning oil:
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/21/nothing-but-death-wafted-in-the-toxic-smelling-air/
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December 10th, 2008 at 2:05 am
That model S is pretty good looking. 0-60 time is nice too!
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December 10th, 2008 at 5:40 am
Sub 30K with a 240 range and no range extender, I will take that.
But the one above, at that price, won’t work for me.
I do like the looks though.
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December 10th, 2008 at 5:40 am
OK it is a pure EV.
But (with a small loss in style) you may haul a trailer with the generator with the ICE and its tank.
I imagine there will be a lot of after sale inventors who will create such trailers for pure EVs like GM has done before for the EV1.
Am I wrong ?
JC NPNS
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December 10th, 2008 at 5:46 am
LB #63
Thanks for the link LB.
We have to get rid of oil asap whatever the current fuel price may be.
This is for that reason that gm-volt.com has been founded and so many contributors day after day continue to be active.
NPNS JC
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December 10th, 2008 at 7:13 am
I like it and would be happy to think about buying one if it actually was for sale. I’m attracted by nice looking, fast, not so tiny as the Volt.
My reservation, if any, is what sort of battery lifetime to expect in a car with a million batteries hand-wired together. Or, maybe that’s not true any longer.
As to range, it is plenty for me.
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:00 am
@Avatar
Agreed. A fuel tax would be the best way to both change behavior (we certainly saw that with $4 per gallon gas!) and to fund development of and purchase incentives for the next generation of vehicles. It’s not a government bailout if the people who steadfastly refuse to give up their SUVs pay the bulk of the cost.
Currently, U.S. consumers purchase 384.7 million gallons of gasoline per day. Add a $1/gallon tax to the cost of that gas and we’d have the $15B the automakers are asking for in less than 40 days. Continue the tax after that to pay for the alternative energy development and plant retooling efforts.
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:30 am
#12
I do drive over 100 miles a day and that is just a commute for my job. That doesn’t include going other places after work. The Volt is great with the range extender, but for those of us who want electric to take us farther, I am starting to lean toward the Tesla. There is no doubt they have a better exterior design than the boring look of the Volt.
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:35 am
I don’t know why we even debate all of this. Who is going to buy either?
Zenn is going to have a 250+ mile range EV on the market in fall 2009 that charges in like 5 mins and costs 25K, powered by EESTOR.
/right?
(=
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:43 am
#58 DonC
On an entirely different tack, one problem Tesla, and any new company for that matter, will have is manufacturing a new car is extremely difficult and expensive. It might be interesting to take one of the existing companies, say Chrysler, which doesn’t have much in its pipeline, and have them manufacture for others. That’s the model which really worked in the chip fabrication business. It separates innovation and design from manufacturing expertise, which is a good thing because it’s very difficult to do both.
=============================
We agree here, big time. I would no sooner giver Tesla 350 million that I would give my 3 year old 20 bucks to buy his own groceries. Electric cars one day will be a cheap and simple thing to produce…but that day is not today.
Let Chysler take a existing small/cheap model (I’m thinking Caliber)…and tell them to make a EV they cheapest/easiest way they can, so regular people can get into one. Things like cutting half its trunk room out for a battery pack (forget seamless integration) and the EXACT same interior/exterior except for a extra couple gauges stuck to the dash and a decal on the side.
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:00 am
I don’t think that Tesla is being unreasonable in asking for a $350mil loan to start production of the sedan. Congress has already passed a bill authorizing $25bil for the development and production of new fuel efficient vehicles. That is the fund the the bailout is raiding. Thus Tesla is engaging in an activity that the government has explicitly tried to encourage and offered to help finance. Why shouldn’t they apply for it?
Tesla is doing some cool things but they aren’t trying to make the electric equivalent of the Model T. However, you have to be careful about your definition of RICH or A LOT. I wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit that there is a market in the US for 40-50k cars like this per year. I think that there is a business model where Tesla can make money at that rate.
Heck, about 10K corvettes are sold every year and those cars are completely impractical by any objective measure. The rich in this country aren’t a very high percentage but there are a lot of people here . 1% is over 3 million people and I imagine that the top 10% could afford this car and that makes a market of 15 million assuming that half of the 30 million are children.
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Martin Eberhard would be a good choice for Car Czar.
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:31 am
#50 Tag
Statik@47 said in part:
…”For a lot of people it is only now dawning on them. “If you can’t pay for the Volt in cash, your probably not getting one”…because there will be no access to financing, you can’t stroll into GM and the only hassle is waiting the 15 mins for GMAC to approve you anymore.”
Given the 1 1/2 to 2 year window before the Volt’s wheels hit the road, isn’t it possible (or even likely) that the credit crunch would have at least eased? I know GMAC is s.o.l., but I hope that SOMEONE will be lending by then. I do think that you hit the nail squarely with the markedly lower amount covered by the term “expensive” though. Any money I have left invested is (and always has been) in what HAD been considered very conservative (preservation) funds, and THEY have shrunk by a third. I’m just tying a knot and holding on.
Be well,
Tag
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
======================================
You are hardcore! Still with the 1.5 to 2 years, hehe. (I still dig that about you).
If you REALLY want to know what I think…and you probably don’t, lol. I think this thing has to get much worse. I know we seem to be rallying a bit here…but it based on nothing. We have gone up like 9 of 12 days on the S&P? But everyone of those days had terrible announcements. In that time we have had record layoffs, multi-decade bad unemployment numbers, all-time numbers in foreclosures, the failure of the 50% of the people who got into the ‘re-vised’ home mortgage program, etc.
The market seems to have some wacky notion that it is a good thing when it goes up on bad news…if I hear ‘the news was priced in’ one more time, lol. That is total BS anyway, like the market rallying after the 530K job loss announcement…the street ‘estimated’ 320K, lol. Revisionist history at its best.
We lost 530K jobs in November, over 600K more just ‘dropped off’ the rolls…basically giving up (side note: people will demand they scrap this ‘new’ way of counting unemployment before this is over).
The market is NOT pricing in the reality. The reality is the those jobs are not coming back. These losses are not like when your semi-retarded cousin Jimmy lost his job working at the Denny’s, who then later re-entered the workforce as a Wal-Mart greater. These job losses are serious…and they are GONE forever.
The financial sector alone dropped over 180,000 jobs in 3 months. These 180,000 people are practically the walking dead in terms of re-acquiring a similar job in this sector. When a trader is let go…he is done. (same for the autosector…walking dead).
Those financial sector losses are huge, we are talking a average salary around 100K. Thats 18 billion gone…per year, from just 3 months of firings. These are the people that spend, they buy the 60″ plasmas, they have the jumbo loans, they buy the Ferarris (down 84% in November 600 cars to 92)…now they are not only not able to buy that stuff…they are going to default on what they do have. One investment trader spends 20 times the discretionary money of ‘joe blow’.
Now we have build ourselves another bubble..the bond market. Did you see the yield on that 3 month T-bill yesturday …negative. NEGATIVE, you pay to have the gov’t hold your money. Does that seem like things are getting better?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=USGG3M%3AIND
And there is about two dozen other things I could mention…but won’t. I think your looking at a lower bottom being set, more bank closures, more credit crunch, more forclosures, more unemployment throughout 2009 (and multiple automotive bankruptcies). Maybe we get low enough to ‘level off’ in 2010 (which would still be worse than today)…but it takes a long time to pull out of situations like this, we are talking 5-10 years.
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December 10th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Elon Musk is just awesome.
He is building a new empire. I got a lot of respect for this person.
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December 10th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Just for the record. Tesla is not ‘just’ asking for 350 million.
They are asking for 650 million, broken down as follows:
350 for the Model S specificially
200 for a battery plant
100 for a drive train program
…thats 650 million more than Ford, lol.
The money just isn’t there…at least not in this 15 billion (which I believe 1 billion of that even has to be held back for some kind of regulatory dance).
Maybe they get something in the followup plan, or from a refunded ‘auto retooling’ program down the road…but even that only pays 30 cents on the dollar, and there is serious questions is Tesla has any money left at all (even after there new refinance) to take advantage of the program.
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December 10th, 2008 at 10:40 am
#71 Statik
According to Ian Clifford of ZENN, they are going to have an EESU powered ZENN vehicle “end of Calendar year 2007″.
.
Watch this video clip @ 4:35:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rpkLLRK8c
I must have missed ZENN’s “revolutionary” press release
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December 10th, 2008 at 10:46 am
#78 Steve Herring
According to Ian Clifford of ZENN, they are going to have an EESU powered ZENN vehicle “end of Calendar year 2007″.
.
Watch this video clip @ 4:35:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rpkLLRK8c
I must have missed ZENN’s “revolutionary” press release
————————————————————
Didn’t you know? They changed plans and ended up making thousands of EESU powered personal aircrafts. I’ve got like 3, they are pretty much awesome…only cost me 30K a pop too, they recharge in the air, solar power FTW.
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December 10th, 2008 at 10:47 am
This website is a scam! Tesla gets 6x the plug in mileage, and already for sale.. Who is willing to wait 2+ years for a so called 40 mile car that has NO track record.
I say let the GOVT give a rebate to people who buy teslas! With the bailout dollars, everone who wants one could have one for the price of a yugo!
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December 10th, 2008 at 11:11 am
1) To heck with the 0-60 in under 6 seconds. How about a 300 mile range? Dallas to Houston.
2) GM is being forced to drop lawsuit in California to get bailout money. Hey GM, after you get your bailout money when the new emission standards go into effect in California, announce that your not sellings ICE cars there anymore, just the Volt. You have that right.
3) Rick Waggoner should be replaced. NOW that he’s about to lose his job… “He gets it”… I don’t understand the logic in paying these CEO’s big bucks to run a company into the ground and then give them a golden parachute when they are fired.
4) Is everyone as sick of all this bailout crap as I am…
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December 10th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Oh, I forgot… Statik up in the great white north is looking down on the lower 48 having a good laugh…
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December 10th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Why does every company looking for a handout think it can get it from the US Gov’t? Seems to me that doling out trillions of dollars that the gov’t doesn’t have isn’t a good idea, but moron politicians are doing anyway. Disgusting.
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December 10th, 2008 at 11:45 am
#51 Avatar:
Thanks for the great link. OMG, I think someone just walked over my grave!
#60 Tagamet:
How ya doin’ pal? Happy Holidays.
#72 Statik:
That’s what I’m talking about! Car Czar, are you out there?
#81 Brad G:
4) Yes!!!!
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December 10th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
#72 Statik says
We agree here, big time. I would no sooner giver Tesla 350 million that I would give my 3 year old 20 bucks to buy his own groceries.
—-
Statik, sometimes I think I come here for your comments alone (OK, and perhaps those of a few other regular posters). You have a way of reducing very complex arguments – in this case, Tesla’s prowess at actually manufacturing what they design – to their bottom line basics, and this analogy is just the latest example.
Thanks for writing.
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December 10th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Statik@(pick a number) re gloom and doom (g)
Thanks for the summary of financial data. I know all the good money would wager on your side (and likely win big time). I know I’d never wager against you (but that’s just because money is so tight, lol). Maybe between now and Christmas you could dig up some positive data and post it as my Christmas present. I KNOW there has to be some out there and if anyone can find it, it’s you (that’s what I love about you)(g).
@noel
Hi guy!. I’m doing better than I deserve. I hope you and yours are well too.
Merry Christmas to all, and
LJGTVWOTR!!, NPNS
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December 10th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Looking at the Model S makes miss the Volt concept all over again…
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December 10th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Re: Slow acceleration on the Volt. I still stand by my vote for a Volt SS. The thing with electric cars is they’re wickedly easy to tune for more power, assuming you’re within the operating capacity of the motor. It just becomes a energy consumption vs. power issue.
If GM deliberately de-tunes the motor going in the “standard” Volt, it wouldn’t take much to turn the wick up to allow for sub 6-second 0-60 times. Then it would just be a matter of sacrificing a little in EV range, or putting in a higher-capacity, more efficient battery.
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December 10th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
#82 Brad G said,
Oh, I forgot… Statik up in the great white north is looking down on the lower 48 having a good laugh…
—
I know it seems I take pleasure in the events of the day…but I really wish no ills on my brothers and sisters to the south.
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#84 noel park said,
“Statik: That’s what I’m talking about! Car Czar, are you out there?”
——————–
Can’t do it, I have a reputation to protect, lol.
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#85 JimGalaxy,
I aim to please, lol
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#86 Tagament
I caught you on the next thread…but Merry Christmas to you too.
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December 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Now that’s what a car in the 50K range should look like!
Only $18,000 more and I get 6X more distance & NO gas! I’ll take it!
Either that or the first company to offer a EV with good range 40-80+ miles.
GO EV ! GO VOLT & MODEL S !
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December 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Until we have public charge sites across the country I don’t think there
will be much of a market for anything without a range extender. Tesla is simply a rich person’s weekend toy, but if GM is getting billions I don’t see why Tesla shouldn’t get federal guarantee loans too. At least they haven’t got a 40 year history of getting it wrong!
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December 10th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Wow. That’s a sharp looking car.
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Not sure why there are so many negative comments here. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. If they build the car in this picture for $58,000 with quality fit and finish it will be sold out for years to come. Sure 180 miles (real everyday range, not 240 limited use range) doesn’t work for everyone but it will work for more than enough people worldwide to support their planned 20-30K annual production. Only problem I see is the price. There is no way they can build that car with 56KWh or so battery for $58,000 in 2010. This price is posturing to gain support for their loan application which by the way was not on the coattails of the Big 3 begging emergency loans. Tesla filed for a piece of the $25B apporpriated for tooling for high efficiency vehicles. The S sedan didn’t appear in the last few weeks by coincidence.
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December 10th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Tesla’s filing was before the Big 3 went a-beggen
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Statik #75
“The market seems to have some wacky notion that it is a good thing when it goes up on bad news…if I hear ‘the news was priced in’ one more time, lol. That is total BS anyway, like the market rallying after the 530K job loss announcement…the street ‘estimated’ 320K, lol. Revisionist history at its best.
We lost 530K jobs in November, over 600K more just ‘dropped off’ the rolls…basically giving up (side note: people will demand they scrap this ‘new’ way of counting unemployment before this is over).
The market is NOT pricing in the reality. The reality is the those jobs are not coming back. These losses are not like when your semi-retarded cousin Jimmy lost his job working at the Denny’s, who then later re-entered the workforce as a Wal-Mart greater. These job losses are serious…and they are GONE forever.”
Since you are basically coming to similar conclusions to mine but from a different direction, I assume your comment about news being priced in being BS was meant at other comments. I don’t know others perspectives for saying this but mine is that the markey assumed job losses would be about what they are as well as the other bad news breaking recently. This explains the reaction and the recent news was very predictable. The problem I see is the same problem that keeps occuring over and over again. People are looking past the next mogul, as you are. The next wave of bad news will be much worse and it isn’t yet being “factored in” yet. Everything you mention in the post is pretty scary and more so because of it’s proximity. Another likely event that is just as alarming but not discussed much is the bankruptcy domino affect. Although related the current auto industry situation, it is not limited to this. In normal times, bankruptcies are a necessary part of a growing free market. My concern is that the pervasiveness of this bad economy leaves too many companies fragile. The sheer number of weak companies and bankruptcies could create a domino of bankruptcies. One company entering bankruptcy could bring down several weak creditors and so on. This is part of the reason why I think it is wiser to deal with the automakers woes the way they being handled rather than bankruptcy. I also think it might be prudent to closely examine all significant potential bankruptcies. Perhaps there needs to be an emergency short term tweak to the bankruptcy law protect the creditors more. There may need to be more concern for the downhill effects rather than trying to save the failing entity.
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Three points to make.
1) When you talk about what average Americans can afford to buy, remember that there are a whole lot of folk who NEVER buy any cars new at all. So when we talk about new car buyers, we’re already talking about a sub-set of US car drivers that are more affluent than many. There are plenty of $49,999 (AR) cars being sold out there by BMW, MB, Porsche, Audi, etc… It won’t compete against the Volt any more than a Saturn competes against a BMW 335i.
2) There is plenty of room in most folk’s 2-car garage for BOTH a Volt and a Model S. The problem of needing a car for long trips is instantly resolved.
3) Any attempts to generalize what the Model S will be like based upon what the Roadster is like, or what drawings are like, is premature. We’ll have to wait to know if it uses the same battery pack, the same battery cooling pump that runs 24/7, etc.
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December 10th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Nixon,
I believe they’ve corrected the cooling pump issue. That is the least of their issues. The biggest is the limited battery life of LiCo cells. They only warrantee it for 5 years and hot climates may have issues.
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December 11th, 2008 at 12:06 am
koz – Good to know about the cooling pump being fixed. It’s not surprising that they would be able to fix something like that.
But they haven’t announced the battery they will be using either. So we can’t be sure it will be LiCo cells. HP just launched a brand new set of lap-top batteries with longer lifes and less risk of heat, and Tesla could just as well use these as the ones in the Roadster. So they might end up fixing their battery pack issues with LiCo cells by 2010 just like they fixed the cooling pump thing. It’s too early to rule out buying a Model S like many have said here, based upon things that just aren’t known.
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December 11th, 2008 at 6:19 am
Nixon,
I agree completely. Even with the same ESS as the roadster, I would consider buying it. Since I’m confident that the ESS will be siginificantly improved for 2010, I would strongly consider it. However, I have serious doubts about a 2010 release and the price. I’m OK even if the ESS still has only a 5 yr warrantee if the price on it has come down below $15k. Battery improvements will keep coming and accelerate IMO.
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December 11th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Holy shit that is sexy!! I would totally buy that over the Volt! I don’t do a lot of traveling (I hate to use gas), but I know I will be taking drives all over the place with that thing!
Now I’m REALLY excited about what car manufacturers are going to bring to us in the coming year or two regarding electrics and EREVs.
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December 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Wasn’t one of the presidential candidates worried about socialism? Now we have companies who can’t make a profit without government help? Disappointing and shameful.
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December 12th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
What we all need is an around town electric car that gets 120 to 240 miles per charge and cost less than $25,000 preferably less than $20,000 and can carry 5 with room for some bags, etc. Something on the size of a Honda Fit, but all electric.
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December 13th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I’m with noel and N Riley,
10 second 0-60 acceleration is OK with me if I get affordability and range. Maybe with an extra ( empty ) battery-pack-compartment that you can slide in an additional battery when the pocketbook allows
btw due to electric motors’ strong torque, electric cars pretty much deliver their stated acceleration times, even when loaded up
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December 14th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
~~ What we all need is an around town electric car that gets 120 to 240 miles per charge and cost less than $25,000 preferably less than $20,000 and can carry 5 with room for some bags, etc. Something on the size of a Honda Fit, but all electric.
I love the concept of the Chevy Volt, but an all electric car described above would be more practical for me.
If I wanted to take an extended weekend trip or something, I could RENT a vehicle for such a purpose.
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December 14th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Dat #104
Zenn Motor Company sort of comes close,
but I don’t think you are going to find that range for the price you specified. There are many here, including me, that wishes we could.
http://www.zenncars.com/
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