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Key Senator Suggests GM’s CEO Should Leave as Bailout Bill Expected Today

December 8th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

Christopher Dodd is the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee that heard testimony from the Detroit 3 CEOs last week and is charged with drafting the bailout bill. On Sunday he said a bill is likely to be presented today. He said “I think they’re very close to a deal, I’m very confident there will be a deal, and that will happen within 24 hours.”

Dodd also said he believed GMs CEO Rick Wagoner should step down in exchange for the aid package stating the executive “has to move on” and “I think you have got to consider new leadership.”

It is being reported that the emerging plan would give GM the needed billions with a week, but have the capacity to rescind the funding if the company didn’t appear to be meeting restructuring goals. The sum of the package will likely be $17 billion for GM and Chrysler.

As well an automaker oversight committee would consist of a board consisting several cabinet representatives and a “car czar” It was still undecided whether that overseer should be appointed by Bush or in the next few weeks by Obama, and exactly how much power over restructuring the board should have. For example should they be given the ability to force car company debtholders to accept reductions in the debt they are owed.

Obama said on Sunday it would be unacceptable to allow the automakers to collapse, but agreed that stringent requirements and strong oversight was needed.

The Senate is expected to reconvene for their last session today, and the House will reconvene tomorrow. Key legislators still remain divided on willingness to say whether they believe the bill will pass.

We shall soon see.

Source (Detroit Press)

[UPDATE: GM vice-chair Bob Lutz defends Rick Wagoner saying he is "without a doubt the best CEO I ever worked for." Video of his interview today below:]

Posted by: Lyle

156 Responses to “Key Senator Suggests GM’s CEO Should Leave as Bailout Bill Expected Today”

NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:37 am

I agree, he should go.

The sum of the package will likely be $17 billion for GM and Chrysler.

Himm, might be enough to get to March, but no further IMO.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:39 am

The decisions made by GM under Mr Wagoner seem to me to have been generally in the right direction. Mr. Wagoner did not create the runup in gas prices or the financial crisis. Mr. Wagoner also seems to have been a steadfast supporter of the Volt and generally of modernizing the product line with newer smaller cars under Mr. Lutz, steps important to those of us here.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:47 am

Lyle’s post said “As well an automaker oversight committee would consist of a board …. For example should they be given the ability to force car company debtholders to accept reductions in the debt they are owed.”
=======================================

Giving a government board the power to force private debt holders, such as bond holders, to accept reductions in the debt (in the absence of formal bankruptcy) would be unprecedented. It is sure to be challenged in court and very doubtful that the court would sustain such a rule. They all know that too, so if that’s in the bill it is pure theatrics.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:48 am

It is not just Wagoner. Most of the top team needs to go.
Perception of the American auto industry needs to change.
Better cars need to come of Detroit that people want to buy.
I don’t think Wagoner has done such a great job.

I will however, agree with RB in that Wagoner is not responsible for the gas prices or financial crises. We also need the Volt and Bob Lutz should stay.

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Joe Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:51 am

I think Rick should stay. He inherited a mess when he took over and it takes years and years to undo such a mess. I think he’s on the right track and knows the in’s and out and that he should definitely stay. An inexperienced new CEO could be dangerous.

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NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:51 am

@2 RB
I disagree, he was luke warm on the Volt after the EV1 expense. He was important to modernising the line up though. BUT, in the end not enough and too slow.

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NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:57 am

Rashiid, I agree with you at least five of them have been there for like ten years.

Joe, Fritz the financial guy can take over, IMHO.

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:05 am

Fritz Henderson.

Come on down, your the next contestant on…

Fritz, you worked hard, your a smart guy, you have put in long hours and had to put a spin on a lot of crazy things that I know you didn’t agree with, your time has come, you deserve it.

/enjoy your $1 year salary and possibly the honor of forever being known as GM’s ‘last CEO’

I hope you learned how to grovel really well in front of people a tenth as smart as you at Harvard. Maxine Waters is just waiting to grill you about your ’sinister plan to destroy independant, minority-owned dealerships in her home district by starving them of credit’

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Lunoir Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:07 am

Mr Wagoner is most likely the guy in the car industry that got the biggest wake-up call. He’s a guy that knows the company well and he has a new mission. The bill will redefine the rules of the game and he’s ready to do things that he would never do before…

Mr Wagoner knows where is GM at this point “A” and is just waiting the Bill to see where it could/should go “B”.

New leadership will be like trying to go from “A” to “B” without knowing where “A” is…

NPNS.

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Van Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:15 am

The leadership of GM has done too little too late. The “generally in the right direction” may refer to downsizing and that action can fairly be thought of as a response to loss of viability. Selling the same car badged as a Chevy and as a Buick or Pontiac is a questionable marketing plan.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:18 am

#6 NZDavid says “I disagree, he was luke warm on the Volt after the EV1 expense. He was important to modernising the line up though. BUT, in the end not enough and too slow”
=======================================

It’s hard to disagree with that. On the other side, he did hire Mr Lutz, and he did support Lutz on the Volt and apparently supported the Volt program throughout the corporation. Maybe more importantly, Mr. Wagoner did actually do something about the weight of the legacy costs. Yes, not enough and too slow, but only in hindsight. Would someone else have done better, short of being able to foresee the future?

Statik favors Fritz, and Fritz is a good person. He is also a finance person rather than a car person, and to the degree he is a car person he is an ICE person. That’s maybe in the best interest of the corporation, and maybe it is in GM’s financial best interest to abandon the Volt for now, but it is not my interest in GM so I’m cautious about him.

I also share Joe’s concern about an inexperienced CEO in a volatile situation. (But I would not call Fritz inexperienced.)

It may seem that I’m coming across as a die-hard supporter of Mr. Wagoner. Far from it; he has made serious errors. But GM could do much worse.

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Jon Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:19 am

Maybe Wagoner should give Dodd a sweetheart home loan through his contacts at GMAC.

How do corrupt people like Dodd get to grandstand over hardworking CEOs like Wagoner?
Dodd caused the crisis that destroyed credit and sent GM into bankruptcy (by shielding Fannie and Freddie from oversight proposed by Bush and McCain of all people years and years ago).

How does he remain Lord and Master here? Who votes for these people?

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THOM Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:19 am

Problem is, if anyone actually sees the progress of the “volt” and it is nowhere near what as been published, all hell will break loose

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Dave G Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am

I’m not sure putting the financial guy in charge sends the right message. Most of GM’s worst decisions made financial sense at the time…

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NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:24 am

Statik says: I hope you learned how to grovel really well in front of people a tenth as smart as you at Harvard. Maxine Waters is just waiting to grill you about your ’sinister plan to destroy independant, minority-owned dealerships in her home district by starving them of credit’

I can’t decide to laugh or cry. Just get my Volt built already!

LJGTVWOTR
NO Plug, NO Sale

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Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:25 am

A year ago GM had over $20 billion in the bank. They had a plug-in Vue, Camaro, and Cruze to “soon be released” (so they said).

They HAD the money to follow through on this projection regardless of the current economic “perfect storm”. GM could have continued forward on this.

This rosey release forecast, presented by GM, invited many share holders to increase their stake, buying more stock at $18 a share.

GM then stated that the release of the Camaro, Cruze, and Plug-in Vue would be delayed. GM stock dropped to $9 a share. GM then hyped the Volt and stated that 20 working Volt mules would be on the road by 09/08. GM stock jumped to $15.

Then came the earnings report. GM admitted to being on a $2 billion per month burn rate. GM stock sank to $3.

__________________________

The public has already paid a dear price in support of GM. The “bridge loan” will be enough to pay employees (working and retired) for 2 more months.

GM will then ask for $11 billion more to “stay open until 2010″.

++++++++++++

Are you in?

=D~

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Dave G Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:26 am

#13 THOM Says: “Problem is, if anyone actually sees the progress of the “volt” and it is nowhere near what as been published, all hell will break loose”
————————————————————————————–
GM has been very transparent on Volt progress. I don’t think there are any surprises there.

The real question is whether a new CEO would be as willing to fund the Volt aggressively when it’s sure to lose money near term…

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Bob McGovern Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:28 am

RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:39 am

The decisions made by GM under Mr Wagoner seem to me to have been generally in the right direction. Mr. Wagoner did not create the runup in gas prices or the financial crisis. Mr. Wagoner also seems to have been a steadfast supporter of the Volt and generally of modernizing the product line with newer smaller cars under Mr. Lutz, steps important to those of us here.
=====================================================

Mr. Wagoner also hasn’t been on to getting higher MPG vehicles on the road. These have been needed for years. His modernized product line is too full of high priced vehicles not favorable to the amarican market. His support of the Volt concept should have started long ago and buy this time a suitable battery type could have been perfected. He and most of his upper management haven’t been in touch with the consumers wants and needs.
Get some new ideas in and get Wagoner out.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:29 am

12 Jon says,
How do corrupt people like Dodd get to grandstand over hardworking CEOs like Wagoner?
Dodd caused the crisis that destroyed credit and sent GM into bankruptcy (by shielding Fannie and Freddie from oversight proposed by Bush and McCain of all people years and years ago).

How does he remain Lord and Master here? Who votes for these people?

—————-
Let me answer that. The very stupid people from Connecticut, of which I am one. Although I can not remember ever voting for Dodd, I have voted for Lieberman every time. I’m a Republican, but I see Lieberman and a decent guy. Dodd is simply a moron who has been there way tooooo long and was able to get elected because of his father.

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Jim Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:30 am

I think that jack-azz Dudd should leave office! Talk about ineptitude! Look it up in the dictionary and they have a picture of D.C. IDIOTS!

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NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am

@11 RB
It’s hard to disagree with that. On the other side, he did hire Mr Lutz, and he did support Lutz on the Volt and apparently supported the Volt program throughout the corporation. Maybe more importantly, Mr. Wagoner did actually do something about the weight of the legacy costs. Yes, not enough and too slow, but only in hindsight. Would someone else have done better, short of being able to foresee the future?

Well, that’s the 17 Billion dollar question, could anyone else have done better? Like any supertanker it takes a long time to turn GM around under BAU. Still why did they have to wait until Tesla build a good looking EV before they jumped on board? Still at least things are happening now. Whether its enough remains to be seen.

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Morty Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am

DICK Shelby…I refuse to call you senator…you sir are a derfwad!

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Dave G Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:34 am

#16 Dave K. Says: “The “bridge loan” will be enough to pay employees (working and retired) for 2 more months. GM will then ask for $11 billion more to stay open until 2010. Are you in?”
————————————————————————————–
There are 3 scenarios:
1) GM restructures without bankruptcy using government loans.
2) GM goes chapter 11, which will require government loans to work.
3) GM goes out of business, 3 million people lose their jobs, and taxpayers lose over $100B in lost income tax revenue and unemployment benefits.

So no matter what happens, the U.S. taxpayer is in, period.

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Dave B Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:37 am

Now we’ll see if Wagoner really cares about the bailout–if so, he steps down. Plain and simple.

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NZDavid Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:40 am

Now we’ll see if Wagoner really cares about the bailout–if so, he steps down. Plain and simple.

Well given his salary is only one dollar, its not like he has much to lose at this stage.

/good night all.

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Jason M. Hendler Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:47 am

I agree that Wagoner should stay. He is already accepting the unwarranted penalty of working for only $1. It is unwarranted, because he leveraged Opel’s small car platforms to develop both the Chevy Volt and the Chevy Cruze to far exceed the 2007 CAFE standards – that alone shows that he is a good leader. In addition, he has made recent trips to China to ensure that the Chevy Volt and other GM products get early introductions into the Chinese markets.

It is the immature Democrats, who don’t like having to make tough decisions, who always seek someone to punish. Dems need to grow up and realize that being a politician isn’t just a popularity contest, it is a very hard job with serious consequences.

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john1701a Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:56 am

He and most of his upper management haven’t been in touch with the consumers wants and needs. Get some new ideas in and get Wagoner out.
______________________________________

We already know what’s needed. Consumers have been begging for a mainstream-priced vehicle that delivers 50 MPG. GM must deliver one.

Volt is great for extreme efficiency. But volume will be low and price will not be affordable for quite a number of years still.

There’s no reason Volt and a 50 MPG vehicle cannot coexist, despite certain people here claiming otherwise. With annual production potential of the new technologies in the millions, having a choice of “to plug or not to plug” should be part of the new business plan… since the market is going there whether GM decides to or not.

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RamZ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:03 am

Wagoner should stay. GM has been moving in the right direction. People bought Trucks and still are because they want trucks and need them because they are the right vehicles for what they need.

Wagoner did not cause the gas prices to swing radically. Wagoner did not cause the mortgage meltdown. Wagoner did not cause the finaicail problems.

Chris Dodd should go for not understanding and controlling the banking industry.

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Dave G Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:04 am

#24 Dave B Says: “Now we’ll see if Wagoner really cares about the bailout–if so, he steps down. Plain and simple.”
————————————————————————————–
Wagoner has already said he is willing to step down.

Look, this guy is rich. He doesn’t need the money. I really think he wants whats best for GM. He’ll step down if it becomes necessary for GM to succeed.

The question is if he’s the right guy for the job, especially considering the job description now seems to include massive restructuring.

And I really don’t know the answer. Wagoner may be an excellent turn-around guy, given the chance. I don’t think the board would have let any CEO make these kind of changes before. Maybe Dodd’s talk of Wagoner stepping down is just to shake things up and get the creditors to the bargaining table.

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frankyB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:27 am

Making a change may not help, Wagoner made a plan, let him failed or succeed with it. If they remove him, that only open the door to “the plan was wrong and that’s his fault”. That remove accountability.

Anyone watched 60 minutes this week-end? if not take the time to watch it… Interesting to hear someone from the OPEC clearly stating they don’t want to see electric car succeed.

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kent beuchert Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:28 am

Notice that senile old Sen Dood has the idea that “new leadership” is needed. Notice that a new labor contract, which actually would help the automakers, is off the table. Everybody knows the reasons for Detroit’s problems – the high labor costs that Dodd and his cohorts have saddled the industry with for the past 50 years. I can just see teh Congress attempting to to “oversee” a business – a Congress that hasn’t run a balanced budget in 50 years presumes to know something about fiscal responsibility. Why hasn’t the unionized media pointed out the absurdity of the govt trying to oversee a business? For some strange reason Dodd wants to replace only GM’s CEO with “new leadership.” In other words , bring in the inexperienced new guys. Yeah, that makes sense. But what happened to Chrysler and their new, old guy. Does this old fellow need to go also? Do we really want someone has brainless as Dodd selecting the new heads of Detroit’s automakers? Does Dodd know anything about anything? A less impressive Senatorial record can hardly be found than Dodd’s, someone who can be counted on to support everything his financial campaign benefactors want. One wonderds how this personal vendetta against GM’s leadership got there. And I note that the newest idea around came fro those old fogey GM execs, who brought forth the Volt. What have the execs of Chrysler and Ford done? Dodd seems to think they are OK. Can Dodd spell “Chevy Volt” ? What irony if Gm’s Wagoner goes and
is replaced by a vocal straightshooter who points out very publicly
and very often that the UAW is the problem. Can you imagine Dodd’s reaction to this kind of “new leadership” ? You know,the kind that actually cals a spade a spade. That would be ulitimate justice for the biased and tottering old Senator.

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D'Artagnon Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:31 am

Gasoline/oil prices were on an upslope from the late 1990s through mid-2008. As early as 2005, as oil demand in China increased, the escalation of rising fuel prices in North America should have sent up a “red flag.” No one who calls themselves a CEO should have been surprised at the change in the economy; as a CEO, it is one’s responsibility to anticipate probable issues and prepare one’s company to deal with them.

If GM had developed the Volt five years ago, they wouldn’t be in this mess. Instead, when gasoline price escalation accelerated in 2006, they would have rolled out new E-REV products and blown away the competition.

Rick Wagoner needs to go, but the government should not be the agency to make it happen. If the government stays out of this mess (as it should), natural existing market forces will ensure that Mr. Wagoner departs and is replaced by someone with foresight to guide the company.

And it won’t cost taxpayers a dime to let that happen.

Best regards,

D’Artagnon

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:32 am

Congress is going to demand a whipping boy, whether it makes sense or not. See you Wagoner. That’s the risk you took when you asked for the gov’t money. I’m sure you knew the risk, which makes me respect you more.

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Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:37 am

“How does he [Dodd] remain Lord and Master here? Who votes for these people?

—————-
Let me answer that. The very stupid people from Connecticut,”

Hey, I resemble that remark! They think Dodd is bad, wait till our Attorney General decides to run for Senator. Hardest-working man in government! Sued movie theaters to make them advertise the time the movie *really* starts! People get ready…

Don’t mess with Connecticut!

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User Name Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:43 am

Were any Wall Street/Banker CEO’s & Execs asked/told to step down as a condition of receiving the $700 billion dollar bail out?
No, they were not, because the money was handed over with no strings attached & no questions asked.
Golden parachutes upgraded to platinum parachutes in fact.
Stay right where you are Rick, you too Bob.
Tell Dodd to f*ck off.

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Tim Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:48 am

Rick should stay.

Dodd (and others) should GO. He broke his OATH of office by ignoring the supreme law of the land and is guilty of Treason!

He (and others) should go… straight to the gallows!

(the Iragis got it right with Sadam)

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randy Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:49 am

I think dodd and his friends in congress should work for $1 A year in salary for creating this financial mess through de-regulation that put GM in this position in he first place

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:06 am

As part of the gov’t loan, union pay and benfits will get reduced and the executive will make $1. But once the loan is paid back, union pay will remain but you can bet the executive pay will return to previous levels. Companies are willing to pay for the top talent….much like sports teams are movie stars. If you’ve got the talent, you win games & make blockbusters.

I’m sure Gettelfinger suspects this. Man he’s gotta be depressed about this confluence of events. It will achieve in 1 year what would’ve taken another 10 years in normal circumstances.

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Carl Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:14 am

I think Senator Dodd should resign his post; It was on his watch that the credit crunch has happened. Where was he then?, Oh living in Iowa running for president, getting mortage deals for VIPS!

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Frank D Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:50 am

American CEO’s have been hampered by a system that rewards the status quo. Our economic problems need drastic action. Dependance on oil has been our biggest downfall. Rick is a smart guy, he will figure this out for himself.

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MarkinWI Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am

Uh, Jason@26, did you see the Charlie Gibson/Bush interviews last week?

Today is a sad day for this blog. More name-calling than substance by far.

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Freemon Sandlewould Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:56 am

If 1 private enterprise steps down then by the same reasoning ALL democrat and most republican politicians should step down.

Dodd for his part is a criminal for his part in fighting Bushes attempts to put the breaks on Fannie mae and Freddie Mac. He makes Dennis Koslowski of Tyco International look like a choir boy.

Excluding the criminal activity on the part of Dodd he and other democrat politicians are acting the quack doctors with the economy. Our economy has been on the methyl amphetamine crank of easy money since 9-11. Their idea of making the patient feel better is to give the patient more meth.

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SteveF Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:07 am

Replacing Wagoner will not solve the problem with GM and most of the US CEO’s. The problem is that the focus is on short-term, quarter by quarter results that make money for the stock holders and not a long term vision and focus on quality products. Big reason why Japan and other car companies are doing better, their primary focus is not to make the stock holders happy this next quarter. It is about providing a long term stable company with quality products, which in turn provides good returns to stock holders. The problem is that the focus of US companies is all about Wall Street and making the quick money. That is reason they focus on the profits of SUVs, because that was were the short term money was at. So yes, Wagoner was part of that problem but do not know any other CEO replacement will be any better.

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charlie h Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:07 am

#37, Randy,

I can’t see a call for Dodd to work for $1 as being anything like productive. A Senator’s pay is about $160K. Wagoner makes $15 million.

I’ve often wondered if almost everybody who frequents this site (statik, Dave K and a few others being the exceptions) is in command of the most basic facts and able to do even the simplest arithmetic.

Wagoner has had 9 years to effect some sort of turnaround at GM. He hasn’t. Let’s examine his flagship projects:

The Camaro… a resurrection of a type of vehicle that was cancelled because of low sales. And it’s late.

The Cruze… a world car that can’t be brought to this country in less than 2 years. That’s some world car ya got goin’ there, Rick.

Hybrids that are standard Epsilons with oversized starter motors. We’re sooo impressed. Not. Neither is the market and between GM’s reluctance to build them and the public’s reluctance to buy them, they hardly have a presence in the market.

Hybrids that can also be described as gas guzzlers and marketed squarely at people who don’t give a fig about gas prices or CO2 emissions. While I can agree that the big two-mode hybrids are technically sophisticated (although there aren’t enough on the market to determine if they’re reliable), this is probably the stupidest marketing decision ever. Between GM’s reluctance to build them and the public’s reluctance to buy them, they hardly have a presence in the market. Rather than at least shift gears and bring out a pickup (sometimes those are actually bought on the operational cost merits), GM has continued to badge-engineer the two-mode SUVs and has introduced the Escalade hybrid, which hit the market with a dull thud two months ago. Pickups are yet months away. I’d rate this program even below…

…The SSR. Bad truck. Bad convertible. Too heavy. Bad dragster. Very expensive. A car should do at least ONE thing well. The SSR does nothing well. Cancelled in 2006 or so, I think you can still find one or two, new, on dealer lots. I’d say this is GM’s Crossfire but at least the Crossfire would go like a bat ouf of hell when you stepped on the gas.

In 2003, Wagoner recommitted the company to big vehicles, SUVs and fullsize pickups. That’s where the marketing muscle and development dollars went.

The Cobalt was allowed to go to market with bad gas mileage. Sure, they finally fixed the STICKSHIFT VERSION ONLY but the Cobalt is firmly ingrained in people’s minds as having poor fuel economy for its class (and the auto, which outsells the stick by 10:1, still has poor fuel economy).

The Aveo. How can a car so small get such bad fuel economy?

The entire Saturn line. Everyone I know who bought a Saturn bought it because it was a practical inexpensive little car with plastic body panels. NONE of these people are considering a Saturn. They ALL mention the end of the plastic body panels. Congratulations, Rick, you killed an entire brand.

GM’s abject failure to meet the Prius in any kind of reasonable timeframe. Lutz was openly mocking it in 2005 WHEN THERE WAS A WAITING LIST FOR IT. Since then, the Prius has consistently outsold most of the vehicle models in GM’s lineup. The Prius will have reduced oil imports by hundreds of millions of barrels before the Volt gets VIN #1 on the road.

GM has posted massive losses under Wagoner’s watch, well into Wagoner’s watch and long before the economy started to tank.

Dodd shouldn’t be calling for Wagoner’s resignation because Wagoner should already be OUT. And Lutz with him.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:10 am

#8 statik said “I hope you learned how to grovel really well in front of people a tenth as smart as you at Harvard. Maxine Waters is just waiting to grill you about your ’sinister plan to destroy independant, minority-owned dealerships in her home district by starving them of credit’
===========================================

Yesterday I went to a locally produced version of Chrismas Carol, with Scrooge and all of the traditional Dicken’s story but with many modern adaptations. In one scene there were 3 beggars on the streets of London all waving tin cups. Their names were Ford, Chrysler, and GM.

Everybody in the audience laughed (me too), for it was well done and pretty funny.

In hindsight, it seems a little ominous. Who wants to buy a car from a company that everybody laughs at? After all, people identify with the cars they buy, and other people identify them that way. Who wants to be associated with a laughingstock? The ridicule of the last few weeks that these companies have been subject to, and have brought on themselves, is going to make any recovery very much harder.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:11 am

I’m in the minority voting for Wagoner to stay. This is because, as we’re seeing right now, transitions are very difficult times. Bringing in someone new at this point would be too disruptive. I also think that over the last few years GM has changed direction and that if allowed to go forward in this direction the country will benefit. If after the crisis is over Wagoner is forced out that’s fine. But now is not the time.

I really shouldn’t have an opinion on this, but my initial reaction isn’t favorable to Fritz Henderson. Overall it seems to me that GM’s problem was that the finance guys ended up making too many of the decisions. Lutz was/is critical because he’s the breath of fresh air (if a 76 year old white guy can be described like that using those terms). He fought for making well designed cars that customers want to buy rather than making cheap cars the finance guys wanted to sell. I’d rather have someone other than a finance type heading the company, though perhaps Henderson has a broader background and these concerns are ill founded.

Finally while I adamantly support government intervention, having Congress dictate management decisions would be an absurdity. Keeping those guys out of those decisions would seem to be a baseline requirement.

The sum of the bailout isn’t all that important. Come January 20th the pressure on Bernake to step up will be unbearable, so funding can (and should) come from both the Fed and from Treasury.

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Tom Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am

You guys talking that “we need the Volt” sounds at minimum pathetic.

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Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:19 am

Stop all bailouts and let the system work it’s way through this.

Displaced workers will be rehired. Prices and wage levels will find a realistic norm. The greedy and deceitful will pay a price (as they should).

I have posted these thoughts before. And the reply has been, “But we’ll lose 1,000,000 jobs!”.

This is correct, we will lose a million jobs that are based on an unrealistic system. This whole Union pay/benefit/retirement system is just like the financial giant system. The realization of the cost has finally arrived.

Let the American supply and demand system work it’s way through this. Do not spend more newly printed bailout money.

Good workers will find jobs and move on. Just as I have after being laid off by an oil related factory closure. Life is tough at times, get over it.

=D~

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N Riley Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am

Senator Dodd is a great one to talk about someone stepping down. After his latest troubles you would think he would keep his mouth shut. But that wouldn’t be Dodd now, would it? There are a lot of others in the congress that should step down because of their involvement in the current and past financial crises. These people should be ashamed of the way the congress has governed our country.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am

#45 RB – “The ridicule of the last few weeks that these companies have been subject to, and have brought on themselves, is going to make any recovery very much harder.”

That’s a great point that Jeffrey Sachs made during his testimony last week when he kept pointing out that the constant talk about bankruptcy was harmful.

The comparison with how Congress treated the automakers and how Treasury treated the financial firms it bailed out is painful. The automakers got this grilling from a group hopefully not composed of our best and brightest. In contrast, on the financial firm side, the Treasury won’t even release the names of the companies asking for assistance for fear of causing damage, and bank regulators insisted on banks which didn’t want or need any money to take some just so it would be more difficult for others to separate the sheep from the goats (so to speak).

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Van Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:24 am

charlie h @44, yes the Board of directors has failed. The Corporate Elites are an interlocking club, the CEO of this company sits on the board of that company and so forth. The reason executive compensation is out of proportion is that the stock holders are unable to hold the Board accountable. Legislation to fix that would go a long way toward creating a viable America vehicle industry.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am

#18 Bob McGovern says “His modernized product line is too full of high priced vehicles not favorable to the amarican market. His support of the Volt concept should have started long ago and buy this time a suitable battery type could have been perfected. He and most of his upper management haven’t been in touch with the consumers wants and needs”
========================================

I completely agree that GM has historically not given enough attention to smaller cars. Now they are paying the price of that neglect. In fairness, though, under Mr Wagoner a nice Malibu has been introduced, the Impala is smaller and better, and the Cruze and Volt are well underway. It takes time, and as you say they have not pushed hard enough or seemed to have understood the urgency.

It may be that in part the GM focus on bigness has been because the historic Durant-GM model has been people trading up from smaller not-so-nice cars to bigger and more profitable ones. That view of things made GM a great company for a long time. The problem in recent years has been that GM didn’t want the smaller ones to be too good, while very good small cars have been available from Honda and Toyota.

Also, we have to face it –> American consumers enjoy and in many cases would rather pay more and purchase bigger cars.

An irony is the the bailout, when it happens, will most directly bail out the new Cadillac Escalde, with models that range from Giant to SuperGiant.

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Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:28 am

12/08/08 0706 EST

“They’re going to have to restructure, and all their stakeholders are going to have to restructure,” President-elect Barack Obama said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “Labor, management, shareholders, creditors — everybody’s going to recognize that they have — they do not have a sustainable business model right now.”

Among issues being discussed:

* Limitations on executive pay and restrictions on how any government loans could be used. Additionally, pressure is mounting on GM to remove Rick Wagoner as CEO. (Ford’s Alan Mulally and Chrysler’s Bob Nardelli haven’t been on the job nearly as long.)
* Warrant for taxpayers that are senior to existing stakeholders to ensure any Federal loans are repaid first.
* The creation of a Federal oversight board led by a “car czar” and including the Secretaries of Treasury, Energy, Labor, Commerce, and Transportation plus the Environmental Protection Agency.

It’s hard to say which is more frightening — the idea of the auto industry being run from Washington, D.C., or that experts like Economy.com’s Mark Zandi say the Big Three will ultimately need $75 billion to $125 billion in order to avoid bankruptcy.

________________________________

This is SO wrong. No bail out for anyone. Let the supply-and-demand system lead the way. Let the crafty crooked bank managers go down. We NEED this to happen to send a message to future generations.

Yes: Big mistakes = penalty

No: Big mistakes = begging and profit

=D~

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:30 am

#50 DonC says “That’s a great point that Jeffrey Sachs made during his testimony last week when he kept pointing out that the constant talk about bankruptcy was harmful.
The comparison with how Congress treated the automakers and how Treasury treated the financial firms it bailed out is painful. The automakers got this grilling from a group hopefully not composed of our best and brightest. In contrast, on the financial firm side, the Treasury won’t even release the names of the companies asking for assistance for fear of causing damage, ”
====================================

I completely agree. Whatever the merits or lack of merits of bailouts, the difference in degree of public humiliation has been astonishing and unjustified. When do we get to hear from AIG? from Citi?

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Dave B Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:32 am

I didn’t say whether Wagoner’s ouster would be beneficial or not for GM. My statement that plain and simple–he should go–relates to the loans. Dodd wants Wagoner gone, and Dodd seems to control the airways and bailout dollars–Wagoner should go, because that’s what it takes to get the money. Period.

Van @ 51,
I agree, we need legislation to hold execs and board members to reasonableness because shareholders have NO power or control.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:33 am

#53 Dave K says “..experts like Economy.com’s Mark Zandi say the Big Three will ultimately need $75 billion to $125 billion in order to avoid bankruptcy.”
=======================================

And experts like statik, in whom I actually have more confidence, give even higher amounts.

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MSI Wind Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am

They need to clear out most of the management, excluding Lutz. The buck stops at the top of a corp. The problem with all these companies is that there is no accountability. The CEOs always blame everything and anyone but themselves for their current self-induced problems.

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RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:37 am

#19 Rashiid Amul says “..Although I can not remember ever voting for Dodd, I have voted for Lieberman every time. I’m a Republican, but I see Lieberman and a decent guy. Dodd is simply a moron who has been there way tooooo long and was able to get elected because of his father…”
===========================================

From a distance I agree in both cases.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:41 am

#48 Dave K – “I have posted these thoughts before.”

You keep posting the same thing because you simply don’t understand the source of the problem. This is not a failure of a poorly run company, nor is it the destruction of an obsolete industry by a newer one. It’s the direct result of a global financial collapse.

The only reason you think this has anything to do with the Detroit automakers is that they’re first, both because the financial collapse started in NA and because their balance sheets were weaker than some. But look out the window. They’re not the only companies affected. As the collapse moves around the world more and more auto companies will need to be bailed out. Argentina has announced a bailout program. Toyota and Honda are quietly moving to secure government bailout money in Japan. The Chinese government is moving to bail out Chinese automakers. European companies are moving to secure government bailout money. At the end of the day there will not be a single car manufacturer which is not bailed out in one way or another.

The reason for this is readily apparent. Auto manufacturing sucks down immense amounts of capital on the manufacturing side and requires immense amounts of consumer financing on the sales and marketing side. As a result, it’s like a canary for financial problems. It will suffer first, giving the warning. But unless the government acts it certainly won’t be the last to become distressed.

Once you recognize the scope and source of the problem, regurgitating nostrums which lead us into the Great Depression doesn’t seem to add much to the discussion.

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David K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:42 am

I agree with keeping Rick & Bob, after all Rick’s salary next year will be $1.

The only thing GM really guilty of is not changing the public’s PERCEPTION of their products. They make just as good a product as the foreign models and in some case get better gas mileage.

All (OK, most of us) here are willing to purchase their upcoming Volt. Some of us even now own GM products. I for one own a 2003 GMC Sierra Extended Cab (get 19 mpg combine Hwy & City – I’m a feather foot I admit) and owned a 1999 Sierra prior to this one. Before these two trucks I owned three (3) Honda Preludes (all brand new). The Honda’s were great cars, I have nothing but good things to say about them, never had a bit of problems with any one of them.

I also have nothing but good things to say about the two (2) GMC trucks, except that I pay more now for gasoline, of course. But that was my choice (Gas was $0.89/gal. in Houston when I bought my 1st truck and probably $1.19/gal. when I bought my second truck). I just got tied of “crawling” in and out of the Honda’s.

If any one should GO, it should be the whole marketing staff, and probably Rick because they are his responsibility, but lets have him work out his last year at $1.

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Newport1980 Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am

Shameless. Chris Dodd was the top beneficiary of money from Fannie Mae, and his “loan money to anybody” policy caused the credit crisis. Wagoner has put GM on the right track with the Volt and other fuel efficient vehicles. And don’t blame GM for making large pickups and SUVs. There was a market for them, and Toyota and Nissan make them also. Chris Dodd is the one who should resign.

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Dwayne Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:55 am

I am very concerned that if a Wagoner goes then the Volt will be cancled. The Volt will not make money for at least 4-5 years. (As I recall the Prius took about that long to become profitable as well). We don’t want a bean counter makeing the decisions now.

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MartinW Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

I say do away with any management/board members who are heavily invested in the oil companies. In today’s world that spells conflict of interest. Second, since the UAW has out lived its usefulness do away with it too. Detroit’s foreign competitors don’t have unions to drag them down. The UAW was needed back when it was formed but it has since become a huge burden.

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Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

hi David K #60,

Notice: Dave K (from Houston) is not Dave K. (from So. Cal.)

____________________________

hi Don C #59,

“… you simply don’t understand the source of the problem …”

++++++++++++

Okay Don, let’s have it your way. We give the auto companies all the tax payer money they can burn. I figure it’s a combined $3+ billion a month. Let’s do this each month for 2 years. The Volt and plug-in Vue MAY be ready for sale by then.

How are the Big 3 going to make a profit?

1>Will the Union be dismantled?
2>Will people suddenly stop buying Civic’s and Prius (Insights)?
3>Will Obama be able to beg the public back into trusting the Big 3?
4>Will non-Union workers care about quality?
5>Will EV development from other sources stop?

Can you say “yes” to all five?

If not, then reread my posts #48 and #53. I believe I am right on this.

=D~

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GLV Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

I’m not a fan either way on Mr. Wagoner…or the rest of the board at GM, or Ford and Chrysler for that matter, but I can see the writting on the wall…Congress is looking for a sacrificial lamb to appease the voters, so somebody’s gonna roll sooner or later. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rick takes the ticket home…it will surely lower his stress level…

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Merrill’s Thain seeking 2008 bonus of $10 million: Mon Dec 8, 1:11 am ET

(Reuters) – Merrill Lynch & Co Chief Executive John Thain has suggested to directors that he get a 2008 bonus of as much as $10 million, but the battered company’s compensation committee is resisting his request, the Wall Street Journal said, citing people familiar with the situation.

The compensation committee has not reached a decision, but is leaning toward denying Thain and other senior executives bonuses for this year, the people told the paper.

______________________________

I say, “Let’s reward the guy. He isn’t THAT greedy”.

=D~

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Campy Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

disruption during this “transition” is exactly what GM needs. They also need to never make about half their current brands/models ever again.

unrelated gripe: they also need to make the chevy bowtie silver because mustard yellow is lame and ugly.

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Adrian Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

I love it. The Senator who took large contributions from loan comapnies who failed, points the finger at others! While I agree that GM has had bad leadership, Dodd should remember (and admit) about all the bad things he did before slamming someone else.

This whole thing is a tragic comedy.

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Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

hi Adrian #68,

Anyone have any bills I can toss this TARP over?

What? My dollar is worth only 65 cents now?

Q>Where’s the other 35 cents?

A>It’s under the TARP.

=D~

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Jon Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Dave K. Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:25 am
A year ago GM had over $20 billion in the bank. They had a plug-in Vue, Camaro, and Cruze to “soon be released” (so they said).
They HAD the money to follow through on this projection regardless of the current economic “perfect storm”. GM could have continued forward on this.
This rosey release forecast, presented by GM, invited many share holders to increase their stake, buying more stock at $18 a share.
GM then stated that the release of the Camaro, Cruze, and Plug-in Vue would be delayed. GM stock dropped to $9 a share. GM then hyped the Volt and stated that 20 working Volt mules would be on the road by 09/08. GM stock jumped to $15.
Then came the earnings report. GM admitted to being on a $2 billion per month burn rate. GM stock sank to $3.
The public has already paid a dear price in support of GM. The “bridge loan” will be enough to pay employees (working and retired) for 2 more months.
GM will then ask for $11 billion more to “stay open until 2010″.

Are you in?
=D~
——————————————————————————

A year ago, the Government came in and passed more CAFE rules. And if you are not aware of how CAFE rules hamper and destroy the domestic auto industry, you should not even be allowed to vote.

Too many people running around setting our country afire by voting to destroy ourselves (voting left). These people should not be allowed to vote unless they demonstrate the ability to understand and explain two economic laws.

Barring that, only property owners should be allowed to vote. Business owners (not CEOs–actual owners) should be allowed TWO votes.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:34 pm

#64 Dave K. – “Can you say “yes” to all five? … If not, then reread my posts #48 and #53. I believe I am right on this.”

David, I don’t understand where you are going with these questions. They are very leading, and contain arguable premises, so they can’t actually be answered with a yes or a no. For example, what does the question “Will non-union workers care about quality” mean? Are you suggesting that workers for the transplants don’t care about quality? And where does that take us?

I will say this. I agree with Jeffrey Sachs who said there is a 90% or greater likelihood that if loan assistance is provided the Detroit auto makers will survive and be profitable. I also believe that the restructuring — given the oversight and who will be involved — will actually result in the Detroit automakers thriving and leading in technological inventions for the next 15-20 years.

Will the UAW have to make concessions on the retired worker benefits? Yes. Will bondholders take a haircut? Yes. Will management take a haircut? Yes. Will the companies initially shrink in size? Yes. Will plants be closed? Yes.

These seem to be the relevant questions.

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WarrenPeace Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

We as Americans need to just let the law of the business take it’s course. GM is a giant in the industry. That does not mean they should be “Loaned” out. Their method of operation is non sustainable and has been for years. It is a foolish and a stupid idea to to bail any of them out just because there will be 1,000,000+ jobs lost. You are all counting every supplier as an employee of GM, at least that’s what your including in counts. They are NOT. They are simply a small suppliers, each is a business for themselves. Now, giving the loan to GM just to save jobs does nothing for everyone. This is what I believe. If GM was/is so poorly management with no insight to how the markets are going (have gone) and continued to build Bradley Tank neighborhood SUV’s as everyone says, then EVERY supplier is also as much at blame if they go out of business when GM does. Do you really want to support a few hundred thousand businesses that fails to see markets crashing and do nothing about it and wait for their handouts? NO! EVERY supplier for GM should already be clamoring to restructure their business and sell elsewhere or diversify products, basically “Evolve” and not rely on GM YESTERDAY. If not, then it’s their fault for not adjusting to the current market, just as GM has failed to do so. As far as I’m concerned they deserve to fail as well for lack of business foresight. The writing has been on the wall for well over a year now.

So, when you say “Over 1,000,000+ jobs will be lost”, what you are really saying is closer to this….

“A few hundred thousand businesses that supply GM with the same lack of fore site/planning in the market as GM has, will be lost.”

Isn’t that more of the truth?

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Nice GM article. Nails the Volt as a Halo vehicle.

http://www.forbes.com/business/2008/12/04/general-motors-volt-biz-manufacturing-cz_jf_1205flint.html

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Casey Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

I’m 33,772 on the list and I’m starting to worry if I will get my Volt by 2010

NO PLUG NO SALE, LJGTVWOTR, DBNGCMEMEV, (my house) =D~~~~(my volt

(Quote)
Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:49 pm

hi DonC #71,

Thanks for adjusting your tone.

Okay, have it your way.

=D~

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Has there been a releas on who the battery mfgr is?

(Quote)
Bryan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:15 pm

Christopher Dodd must resign… how does he have the nerve to make such a statement. He had a big hand in ruining our entire financial system and he sits there like he had nothing to do with it. Christopher Dodd and that other slobbering mass Barney Frank should be thrown in prison.

(Quote)
Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

hi CaptJackSparrow #76,

“Has there been a release on who the battery mfgr is?”

_________________________

A>No

All articles I have seen (up to yesterday) mentioned Korea as the battery provider. Yesterday, one article mentioned China as “still in the running”. GM is either unsure of which battery or is unwilling to say.

GM stated that they had 20 Volt mules on the road for testing (last September). If GM hasn’t chosen a battery provider then they are pinching the production Volt release date of late 2010. If they have chosen a battery provider, we are being kept in the dark.

The main reason I can see for keeping this information quiet, is that if it’s A123 China (AONE: Nasdaq) then they don’t want a to have a runaway IPO. If it’s LG Chem/CPI Korea, then this means they have chosen the weaker technology. Or, it may be that they believe Congress will withhold TARP if 1/3 of it buys batteries from China.

=D~

(Quote)
Michael Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

GM in the confessional

GM says it “disappointed” and “betrayed” consumers

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4B738W20081208?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

(Quote)
Unni Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Do any one have a problem with SUV ? I dont think so, If gas is cheap America will jump to SUVs back.

Do you tow with an import ? will it apt for your tastes and life style ?
or do you want to do japaneese life style or American ?

Its easy to give speaches specailly tharshing GM. Only property we want to acheive is Oil indipendence for now or more for locally produced renewable energy.

Today its gaz gizzlers tommorow its going to be Electric gizzlers ( if electricty is cheap and locally producable then electric gizzlers will continue else same electric misers will come and take off the show ).
I dont have a problem with an electic SUV (ex envoy) which gives same power as now and cheap to run.

(Quote)
Paul-R Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Dodd is a useless turd.

Sorry … wait … that’s not true. “Useless” would actually be a big improvement. Dodd’s incompetence is in fact destructive. He should step down before Wagoner.

Wagoner has only been in control a few years, and during that time GM’s products have improved tremendously. Their product line is now pretty damn good, and the people stating otherwise are mainly the “I won’t buy any American cars” crowd, so they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

Fritz as CEO? The last thing GM needs is a friggen bean-counter as CEO. That’s what killed them in the 80’s … they didn’t make cars people wanted, they just figured out ways to make them cheaper.

(Quote)
Casey Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

Liberals don’t think they do wrong but they think you should not do wrong, Barney Frank and his boygirl friend at Fannie mae should both go to jail along with Dodd and Cox, well maybe Cox just needs to go home, no go to jail.

Stop all the bailouts, Dave K @ 48 53 and a few other posts is correct. Don C has got some good points though

NO PLUG NO SALE, LJGTVWOTR, DBNGCMEMEV, (my house) =D~~~~(my volt

(Quote)
DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:37 pm

#73 Cautious Fan – “Nails the Volt as a Halo vehicle.”

Nice article. Great link. FWIW Lutz has been saying this for some time. What he’s said is that it’s designed to get “higher educated workers living on the coasts” to look at GM products.

#75 Dave K. – “Thanks for adjusting your tone.”

Keep in mind that I was a litigator for a decade, so what you might view as overly combative looks like normal back and forth to me. If you notice I (at the least try) to make a distinction between the poster and the post. Here it was awkward to find a way to do that. So I apologize if you were offended.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Here is an interview with Bob Lutz this morning on CNBC. Interesting if you have five minutes, especially on the question of the higher CAFE standards and the California emissions standards.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=11007501&ch=4226720&src=news

(Quote)
CaptJackSparrow Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pm

@Dave K

Thanks for the response.

Now, I have another question. Same post as before in a previous thread. Does anyone know anything at all of the on board generator?
All I know is it’s 53KWh. Who makes it? Any pics? (probably not, too hush hush). I vaguely remember reading something on it on how the coils were designed but can’t find the article anymore.

(Quote)
RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

#74 Casey says “I’m 33,772 on the list and I’m starting to worry if I will get my Volt by 2010″
============================================

No one unaffiliated with GM is going to get a Volt in 2010.
(If you don’t believe it, just wait and see.)
Maybe some Volts delivered in 2011, or maybe not.
There is a price for all this confusion, and part of that price is delay.
One thing to remember is that if the Cruze is delayed (and it is), then the Volt is delayed. They are twins.

(Quote)
George K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:04 pm

#68 Adrian
“I love it. The Senator who took large contributions from loan comapnies who failed, points the finger at others!”

Wagoner should say to Mr. Dodd, “I’ll step down for being in charge during the financial meltdown which affected GM, if you step down for being in charge of the oversite committee, which is supposed to forestall (or at least give warning of) a financial meltdown.”

(Quote)
RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

#84 DonC — gives link to Lutz remarks on CNBC
==========================

Thank you for this excellent link. He is a good advocate for GM. Even so, I noticed how stressed Mr Lutz looked in the first few seconds of the video, before he started talking.

(Quote)
Arthur Morrison Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

I think Bob Lutz is just an amazing guy. He speaks so clearly and diplomatically and with every sentence perfectly crafted – bit like that other seventy year old John McCain. They rock – seventy is the new fifty.

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MDDave Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I don’t feel qualified to make a comment on whether Wagoner should go or not. But I will say that Dodd’s demand that Wagoner step down seems rather ill thought out. Dodd’s statement comes across as politcal posturing or an idle threat, and idle threats ultimately make the person issuing the threat seem weak and petty if you ask me.

(Quote)
DaveP Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

I really can’t see that dumping Wagoner is going to actually help turn things around at GM. In his tenure as CFO, he did quite a lot to change the legacy cost structure they inherited. Then as CEO in 2001, he brought Lutz on board to mix up the product line a bit (can’t just sell one car under 8 brands and then in 2005 he personally took control of the North American operations because they were totally f’d up. Since 2007, he’s been pushing the \Volt, too.

Frankly, car companies are huge behemoths that don’t move quickly at all. Frankly, Wagoner’s been moving GM as fast as I’ve ever seen anyone move a car company.

On the negative side, he clearly f’d up with the EV-1 (not in not selling it, in not following up on it until the \Volt) but especially selling the NiMH formulations off to the oil companies. That was crazy stupid.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

#89 Arthur Morrison – “They rock – seventy is the new fifty.”

Yes, whatever you might otherwise think of these guys, we should all aspire to be as vital and engaged as they are at their ages. It’s remarkable.

#90 MDDave

You have summed this up very nicely.

(Quote)
Tom Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

People are talking about bailout as if “money” is a unlimited resource. Those expecting the government will print money and saved incompetent companies and get out of this one smiling will get disappointed. It is already documented that the “Big 3″ need at least $125 billion in order to survive.

It is very unlikely demand for cars will come back at tipyical levels in the next 9 months. The Volt may well be another example of GM failure;the car is too expensive. Look at the THink City for $20K. I would buy a Prius – 9 miles range for $22,000 than a Volt for $37,000. I am sure most people would agree with me.

It is such a waste of resources trying to save GM focusing on the Volt.

(Quote)
RB Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

“The United Auto Workers union, in return for making contract concessions in order to help the Big Three auto makers win a federal bailout, is looking for an equity stake in General Motors Corp. and likely a seat on the company’s board, according to one union official.” — full story at WSJ, now.

(Quote)
Gary Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

All this rhetoric about booting out Rick Wagoner is just a witchhunt–a blame game. Quality issues, perception problems, and unsustainable union contracts were created FAR before he was in the position he’s in right now. Over the past few years, with Rick in his current position, GM has made huge changes to help fix these problems. Given time, they would have done quite well. Now the timeline has been severely shortened… it’s not Rick’s fault that a bunch of douchebags helped create the current financial crisis.

Mind you, Rick could be a bit more charistmatic. Look at Steve Jobs and what he did for Apple–inspire employees to see what stuff they can come up with. Bob Lutz is great in that respect–unfortunately some of his personal comments haven’t rung well with environmental nutjobs.

(Quote)
Stantheman Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

The market cap in GM stock is about 3 million. Why doesn’t the government just purchase GM outright if they want to be in the car business?

(Quote)
Bryan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

The Volt will have to sell comparable to the Prius to succeed regardless of the higher efficiency.

(Quote)
GM Volt Fan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

If GM gets this bailout money, I want to see car magazines like Motor Trend, Car & Driver, Road & Track, Consumer Reports and JD Power singing the praises of GM’s new cars when they come out in the next 5 years. I want to see GM’s new vehicles become equal to or better than ANYTHING Toyota produces in quality and reliability, etc.

I want AWARD WINNERS and BESTSELLERS … in every segment … from subcompacts to midsize to crossovers … hell even the smaller number of big trucks and SUVs that might manage to stay in production.

Get ‘er done GM !!!!

(Quote)
noel park Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 3:37 pm

“Tune in tomorow for another thrilling episode of ‘As the GM Turns’”

Ho-Hum. Burnout threatens.

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Len Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Here is an interesting history of hybrid vehicles. The first serial hybrid is really old. Mentions the volt a couple of times and gives some insight into the motivation for the Prius. (yep it was us).

http://www.accelacast.com/programs/dn_future/

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chevonly Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Dodd is a prime example of why we need a viable third party in this country, these idiots Republican and Democrat are so out of touch with the average american, they no longer represent us, they represent old man Bushe’s new world order. If it was not so sad it would be funny watching them on TV, with there soundbites and photo-ops, How many of them acually drive an american car or even know how much a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread costs. They are all asleep at the switch no oversight and no accountability for the real crooks that have gotten us into this mess. RICK WAGONER SHOULD STAY ON AS CEO, his turnaround may have succeeded if the economy had not tanked thanks to the crooks on wall street.

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DaveP Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

#98 GM Volt Fan:
Actually, GM has been doing a bit better than in the past in that regard.
Car & Driver gave them 3 10 bests in 2008 and 2 in 2009.
In 2009, it was the Corvette and the CTS.
In 2008, those two plus the Malibu.
I think the Malibu appearing recently in a C&D top 10 is worth noting. I think Lutz was expecially proud of that Malibu effort and it was well received by consumers and the press. They need to keep doing that kind of work.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2008_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-5.html

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DaveP Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

#102 DaveP:
Actually, the CTS making the list two years in a row is pretty good, too. Car and driver’s 10 best tends to bias toward new models. Indeed no other Caddy has ever made a repeat showing on their 10 best and you have to go all the way back to 1992 to find another caddy on the list, anyway.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/sports_car_central/2009_10best_cars_10best_cars+page-3.html

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Ed M Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

#2
RB

I agree 100% with you. If the politicians want Rick Wagoner to resign then they should set an example by resigning first for screwing up the economy.

I guess GM didn’t contribute enough to Dodds candidacy.

Poor old GM. If they hide something they get excoriated, if they admit mistakes they’re excoriated anyways. They can’t win with a fickle media.

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Joy Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Wagoner has made improvements since he has been CEO. He is the first GM exec I ever recall admitting that GM had quality problems that needed to be addressed. That was years ago & under his leadership the quality is now excellent in the GM vehicles we have owned. I believe it would be a mistake to hand the position to a financial guy. Don’t forget the direction GM took when Roger Smith, often called a “bean counter”, was in charge. GM continues to struggle to shed the reputation that came out of that era.

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Jeffrey Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

I say give $34 billion to Tesla. It’s an American company that has already made more of an impact with electric vehicles than GM probably ever will. Image giving that kind of capital to an innovative, efficient company, rather than a bloated dinosaur.

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Jason The Saj Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Being a former resident of the State of Connecticut, and proud to say that Dodd “never” received my vote. This guy is a political hack and a piece of work.

I once wrote to him on an issue and received a form letter on the topic that actually addressed the exact opposite of what I wrote.

If you really want to ask someone to resign. Senator Chris Dodd should be the first person on the planet. As chair of the Senate Banking Committee and recipient of the largest donations from Fannie & Freddie. While there is no one person to blame for our banking fiasco, there is no person who can claim as much credit as Senator Dodd.

Sadly, Dodd will likely remain in his seat until he keels over.

*sighs*

Dodd, please do us a favor, shut-up. Do us a bigger favor – step down. Thank you!

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 5:25 pm

I don’t know if anyone was waiting on the Frank/Pelosi press conference at 4:15 announcing the bailout plan, but it was less than confidence inspiring.

They showed up 40 mins late, and basically said they had made ‘good progress’ but that it was a 5 way party negotiation.

“There are a couple of specific issues to be negotiated,” Rep. Barney Frank, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said at a news conference. “I think they can be worked out.”

The only hard info was confirmation of the 15 billion as the cap to come out of the retooling plan (because thats what the White House said the max they would let through).

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28111911

“White House officials are still evaluating the plan, but they said the draft didn’t appear consistent with the principles behind a broad agreement to give long-term financing only to viable companies. They said it was hard to tell definitively whether their doubts were warranted and they would continue talking to Capitol Hill representatives”

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George K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 5:30 pm

#94 RB
““The United Auto Workers union, in return for making contract concessions in order to help the Big Three auto makers win a federal bailout, is looking for an equity stake in General Motors Corp. and likely a seat on the company’s board”

So, I guess, getting rid of the Union to be more competitive with Honda and Toyota, is now out of the question.

So much for the idea of cutting unneeded overhead and restrictive work regulations to help GM become leaner.

What happened to: your survival depends on how much you can give up, not how much you can take?

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N Riley Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

It would seem the overall view today is that Wagoner should stay and Dodd should go. I agree with that opinion happily. I have never like Chris Dodd. He reminds me of a big fat toad. I keep expecting to see his tongue flick out and snatch in a big, juicy fly whenever he is talking. But, I guess if he did that he would be eating many of his “partners in crime” in congress.

Wagoner has accomplished a lot since taking over at GM. Granted he seems to be doing it very slowly, but I am not sure how much faster change can be initiated in a global corporation like GM.

Hope to see the last of Chris “toad” Dodd soon.

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Paul-R Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

What do you want to bet … this bailout will follow the same path as the $700 billion dollar bailout.

That is, it will not pass the first time. Then it will get padded with unrelated pet-project-pork bribes until a sufficient number of our congressional crooks are willing to vote for it.

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blkstne Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

After reading the bill for the 15 billion loan it’s reads like a chapter 11 in all but name. Actually a actual chapter 11 would give the Detriot 3 more choices/freedoms and less strings attached.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 6:09 pm

#109 George K – “So much for the idea of cutting unneeded overhead and restrictive work regulations to help GM become leaner.”

The overhead is pensions and health care for retired workers. Those are contractual obligations which would continue to exist even if the union went away tomorrow.

Making Detroit competitive by cutting retiree benefits may be necessary but you seem entirely too gleeful about it. These are not wealthy people.

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Tim Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

DonC (#113) says:

“The overhead is pensions and health care for retired workers. Those are contractual obligations which would continue to exist even if the union went away tomorrow.”

Just like bankruptcy, the government can do any damn thing they want including lopping off the retirement and healthcare dead weight of retired workers so our tax investment isn’t wasted on the non-productive. Not EVERYBODY has retirement benefits, you know. My dad will continue to work until the day he dies and I HOPE my investments do better but LUCK has as much to do with life as proper planning.

The UAW bet on a horse and then starved it to death and we ALL know that there is no use in beating a DEAD horse.

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George K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:28 pm

#113 DonC
“The overhead is pensions and health care for retired workers. Those are contractual obligations which would continue to exist even if the union went away tomorrow.”

Don, what are you talking about?

By overhead, I was talking about the Union organization, including but not limited to Mr. Gettelfinger. HIS organization, not GM workers. How $much$ do you think he, and his organization, office buildings, etc. are getting to keep all that running? And, yet, he doesn’t produce one car. That’s what you call, OVERHEAD.

Honda and Toyota USA don’t have to pay his salary nor his organization’s salary, expenses, etc., and, as you point out, “pensions and health care for retired workers”.

I just want an equal playing field.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

It’s right in front of our eyes, yet we can not see.

Give, take, give, take, I won’t unless you will.

______________________________

The current automotive manufacturing system is engineered for eternal internal conflict. If the Board gives way to the Union demands, then the company will not make money. If the Union doesn’t get what they want, they strike and the company will not make money.

They call the result of this infighting: “making a comfortable wage”.

An automotive CEO makes $1.25 million dollars a month. Why, because it’s part of the deal. The Unions take way too much (or strike). So management says, “Okay, if we’re going to open the company wallet, then make sure I’m in and I will give the Union what it wants”.

GM was actually making a come back 12 months ago. The announcement of the 40mpg Cruze was reviving interest in GM. But guess what, the Union decided to strike at a US/Canada parts manufacturing plant. And again, GM took a financial tumble. GM stock dropped from $12 to $9 a share.

It’s the same old song. “Okay, the Cruze will make future money. Give us the profit up front to assemble it.” Management had no option. Give the Union what they demand or the Cruze will be delayed. Guess what, it’s delayed anyway. And guess what, the profit from the Cruze is delayed. Because the Union took it before it was earned.

I want GM to survive, but the current GM must die. This system is flat out broken. Pre-bailout restructuring is needed. Wagoner should stay, and Lutz should stay. The Union leaders should either move on, or pick up and oar and start rowing. The times they are a-changin’.

And accept it that soon
You’ll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin’
Then you better start swimmin’
Or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin’.

=D~

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Len Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

Instead of a toad, more like Jabba the hut in Star Wars that Princess Lea finally choked. Toads are rather benign creatures that just eat bugs.

The first series hybrid about the year 1900:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid

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Gary Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

The comment about getting rid of Wagoner is a kneejerk reaction. At work, I see snap decisions being made without research all the time–and they’re usually bad.

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Here is a DRAFT of the bill they are working on/ammending now:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/autobilldraft.pdf

(couldn’t link direct..was flagged as spam, so this is redirected through TTAC)

/go nuts, lol

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Thing of interested in bill as proposed:

They have until Mar 31 to PROPOSE a viability plan…or one can be assigned to them, but the appoint ‘car czar’ submits a report to congress every 15 days (or less).

The loan is the most senior debt (as Frank said in the press conference) so the gov’t would theoretically get their money back if they decided to shut them down.

The clown moment is that they have to drop their lawsuits against state emission standards. While personally I support those initiatives, forcing compliance from the ‘big 2.8′ will cost them a heck of a lot of money to get up to par….I guess they could just ignore those laws completely and hope for the best. (I’m guess this is the clause the White House is having a problem with).

There is a ‘assessment’ date of 45 after the president’s yada, yada, yada…February 15th, 2009.

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George K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

#113 DonC
“Making Detroit competitive by cutting retiree benefits may be necessary but you seem entirely too gleeful about it.”

Don, what are you talking about!!? Cutting retiree benefits is your definition, not mine!

Also, like most on this great forum, I am here because I love discussing the Volt, E-Flex, hybrid cars, reducing oil, cutting pollution, … Lyle is only reporting these non “gleeful” topics, as they, unfortunately, effect the existence of our Volt project. And I can’t wait til we are back on track.

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Koz Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 7:57 pm

RB #3,

“Giving a government board the power to force private debt holders, such as bond holders, to accept reductions in the debt (in the absence of formal bankruptcy) would be unprecedented. It is sure to be challenged in court and very doubtful that the court would sustain such a rule. They all know that too, so if that’s in the bill it is pure theatrics.”

I read GM’s plan but not anyhting first hand of where the government’s bill is going, but I doubt it will (or could) give any government oversight person (or board) the direct authority to force private debt holders to to accept anything. What it could (and undoubtably will) do is give the authority that will indirectly “force” their concession. Bankruptcy will mean 50% on the dollar at best for the bondholders and they know this. The gov oversight will have authority to discontinue or repeal the loans with the taxpayer $ at the head of the line. This would unquestionably lead to bankruptcy. Every needs to give in this situation and everyone knows it. The only debate will be how much give. Bondholders will be happy with 75% on the dollar without bankruptcy and would likely be willing to accept less. JMO.

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:00 pm

Other random factoids in the bill:

Loan duration is 7 years (but can be extended), rate is 5% for first 5 years, then 9% thereafter. Whoever gets these loans have to report any activity that trips 25 million to the Czar…and the Czar can basically do whatever the heck he wants to about any proposed material changes.

Failure to comply kicks in on March 31st, if the following happens:
–their short plan sucks and they are not implementing it
–their new long term plan is not filed or sucks
–they do not comply with all Fed OR State efficiency requirements

Executive compensation is basically toast and no golden parachutes while the loan is unpaid and no bonuses (this applies to the 25 most senior/compensated employees).

So hurrah to you 26th in the charge W. W. Brent Dewar (GM Europe Vice President, Sales, Marketing and Aftersales), you can still rack up the bonuses!!!

Brent’s profile:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/corp_gov/bios/dewar.jsp

Side note: I know what your looking for in there…and you won’t find it. This is just the approval of the slush fund, it doesn’t say who gets what…and how much.

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Morgan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

123 Statik:

Go Brent! Thanks Statik…that seriously made me laugh out loud which is something that needed to happen some time today (more RV manufacturers out of business/laying off)

Anything in there about safety standards being changed/emissions so GM, Ford, Chrysler can bring their Euro models over? That seems to me to be the ONLY way GM is going to meet the efficiency requirements.

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:10 pm

#122 Koz

RB #3,

“Giving a government board the power to force private debt holders, such as bond holders, to accept reductions in the debt (in the absence of formal bankruptcy) would be unprecedented. It is sure to be challenged in court and very doubtful that the court would sustain such a rule. They all know that too, so if that’s in the bill it is pure theatrics.”

I read GM’s plan but not anyhting first hand of where the government’s bill is going, but I doubt it will (or could) give any government oversight person (or board) the direct authority to force private debt holders to to accept anything. What it could (and undoubtably will) do is give the authority that will indirectly “force” their concession. Bankruptcy will mean 50% on the dollar at best for the bondholders and they know this. The gov oversight will have authority to discontinue or repeal the loans with the taxpayer $ at the head of the line. This would unquestionably lead to bankruptcy. Every needs to give in this situation and everyone knows it. The only debate will be how much give. Bondholders will be happy with 75% on the dollar without bankruptcy and would likely be willing to accept less. JMO.

—————————
Yes, the bill gives the gov’t the right revoke the whole thing on March 31st if it wants to. One of the triggers of it being revoked is if they feel benchmarks are not being made, or future viabilty is in question.

Just as FYI, the gov’t is looking for/demanding at most 30 cents on the dollar from those bondholders. That was the absolute ceiling proposed by anyone on the two days of hearings I watched. With the amount of debt GM is carrying and the environment they find themselves in, if they were to go under receiving this ‘bridge’ from the gov’t, the bondholders would be lucky to see 10 cents on the dollar.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

#121 George – “Don, what are you talking about!!? Cutting retiree benefits is your definition, not mine! ”

George, here is why I thought you were referring to retiree benefits: The wage and benefit packages of current workers are roughly comparable across all auto manufacturers in the US, both those centered in Detroit and the transplants mainly in southern states. The big difference is in what is euphemistically called “legacy costs” — which turn out to be pensions and health care for retired workers. (The transplants don’t have legacy costs because they haven’t been around long enough). The legacy costs amount to about $1600 per vehicle.

Since this is the only real difference in costs between the domestics and the transplants, I assumed this is what you were referring to when you said “overhead”. I guess you could cut other things but at the end of the day the dollars are insignificant. The only way to have a level playing field is to get rid of those legacy costs, and the only way to do that is to throw the retirees under the bus. Other approaches would be like getting rid of the corporate jets — a fine symbolic gesture perhaps but nothing that involves significant dollars. In any event, that’s why I thought you were talking about retirees.

And like you, yes, I prefer car stuff.

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DonC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:15 pm

#112 Statik

So why are the stock prices so high? I don’t get it. Do they think the government is going to draw a circle around the shareholders like it did for Citi?

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:18 pm

#124 Morgan

123 Statik:

Go Brent! Thanks Statik…that seriously made me laugh out loud which is something that needed to happen some time today (more RV manufacturers out of business/laying off)

Anything in there about safety standards being changed/emissions so GM, Ford, Chrysler can bring their Euro models over? That seems to me to be the ONLY way GM is going to meet the efficiency requirements.
———————————————
Your welcome….and he actually is the 26th man on the hierachy, so provided he doesn’t get ‘downsized’ he could make some extra cash, lol.

As for relaxing the safety standards to bring Euro models over, I have not heard anything. I postulated over the last few weeks that if the gov’t was serious about hitting mileage and emission standards, that is all it would take.

However, much like forcing the ‘big 2.8′ to comply with state requirements is in direct opposition to them being able to make money short term, the repel of safety standards would indeed allow them to make the efficiency thresholds, but would instantly open up the NA market to a massive new legion of imports, and a whole other can of worms.

(That being said, I would welcome the change…I don’t think the domestic automakers would be too thrilled though).

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CDAVIS Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

repost………..
_____________________________________________________
A bailout/loan proposal of GM from VOLT fan CDAVIS:

I’m apposed to a taxpayer backed bailout/loan of GM.

The slippery slope of taking money from the many tax payers to provide aid to the smaller number of needing individuals and needing private industries is not a new challenge to American politics as illustrated in my previous Davey Crockett post (#102): http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/09/as-gm-goes-so-goes-the-nation/

I also recognize that the current political and economic circumstances are such aligned that some form of bailout/loan of GM will happen. Therefore the question becomes what is the least objectionable method to provide taxpayer backed aid to GM.

If you boil down the GM pleadings for taxpayer backed assistance, GM states that they acknowledge that they have in the past made mistakes in terms of running their enterprise but that most of those mistakes have been corrected and that if not for the current challenge of individuals unable to finance the purchase of GM cars, that GM would have been able to successfully execute the plan it had in place to reform itself. In other words, the problem for GM today is that individuals are not able to finance the purchase of a GM car. This being the case, then the most obvious way to apply taxpayer assistance to GM would be for the government to facilitate, (under reasonable credit terms) consumers car loans. This should be easy for the government to facilitate because of the massive financial capital injection the government has recently provided several banking institutions of which those institutions could be charged with the job of issuing consumer car loans using the money already earmarked to provide new consumer loans. Giving GM access to a taxpayer backed loan does not address the issue of consumers not purchasing cars due to the tight credit market. If the politicians also want to affect the type of cars (i.e. high mileage green cars) that consumers purchase with the taxpayer backed loans, then the politicians should allow car loan interest tax deductions for cars that meet a certain mileage threshold.

______________________________________________________

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statik Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

#127 DonC

#112 Statik

So why are the stock prices so high? I don’t get it. Do they think the government is going to draw a circle around the shareholders like it did for Citi?
——————————————————–

Indeed. You got me about the stock price. I was here saying I don’t get the GM price at all at $40, then $30, $20, $10, $5…$1.70, lol.

Sad story for me. My OWN father bought shares of GM last week! I could not believe it. Only $600 worth, but c’mon. I see him a 4-5 times a month…and mentioned my opinion of GM on more than one occasion, lol. So I asked him rationale? “The government won’t let them go under…and I’m in no hurry to sell, they will be worth $20 again someday.” — I had to leave after that, lol.

I think people just refuse to think it is possible that GM could not be there…or the shares be worthless. It is that steadfast belief that forms the foundation for them buying the shares as it dips to $40, $30, $20, $20, $5…$1.70, all the way down.

Reminds me of this sucker rally we have going on in the market right now. Endless bad news, piles and piles of it, and virtually no good news (other than more bailout money)…and the market goes up?

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Dave G Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:36 pm

#128 statik Says: “As for relaxing the safety standards to bring Euro models over, I have not heard anything. I postulated over the last few weeks that if the gov’t was serious about hitting mileage and emission standards, that is all it would take. ”
————————————————————————————–
I’ve heard that Europe sets standards in terms of emissions per mile, while the U.S. standards are in terms of emissions per gallon.

Do you know if this is true?

If this is true, and if the U.S. changed to emissions per mile ratings, then SUVs, trucks, and other large non-commercial vehicles would require much more hardware to control emissions, while smaller cars would require much less hardware for emissions.

Is this right?

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JEC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 8:53 pm

I was asking yesterday, if the falling gas prices might begin to help (I did not say solve) GM and the others. I got some very informative feedback from the local expert (we all know who it is, and I think his head may grow to large to get into his Smart4Two, so I will not mention his name….hint…hint..nudge…nudge..). I was all told I had no idea what I was talking about, but again I was putting out the question not stating any facts.

Well I decided to peak around and sure enough, it does seem that SUV sales are back on the rise with steep decline in gas prices. People are actually still able to get loans or finance in other ways.

Any way, here is a link to an article addressing this specific issue.
http://www2.redlandsdailyfacts.com/sanbernardinocounty/ci_11165307

I am no optimist about the economy, but just as things can go in the toilet in the wink of an eye, things could actually improve with little warning. Where is Tag when I need him?

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

hi statik #130,

“… this sucker rally we have going on in the market right now…”

__________________________

I agree, this is a sucker rally. And more than this, I feel “the rally” is a deliberate attempt by the (TARP funded) World Banks to ring-out as much “real” savings dollars they can from the working public.

+++++++++

Money is worth nothing without some sort of energy associated with it. A man can work, therefore he has value. He is payed paper notes to represent the effort he has put forth. He goes to a store and exchanges his prior work effort (notes) for goods and services. The Government takes 8% of each work note … each time it is “spent”.

Money is nothing without an associated effort. So printing… and printing… and printing false bailout dollars is punishing the worker. His future effort will now be rewarded with paper dollars (notes) which have been diluted by TARP. This is the greed system. The rich taking from the stupid. Something like we have going on now.

+++++++++

Allow the normal supply-and-demand system to work. Cars will continue to be manufactured. People will be able to find new jobs in fields which are just now being invented. The incoming President has big plans for energy independence. He even stated that one goal is the formation of 1,000,000 new energy related jobs.

+++++++++

GM must restructure now. Clean up their debt. All workers and management must take reasonable haircuts. The Union must fade off into history.

+++++++++

Can you believe the dialogue between the Union and Management?

Management: We can’t afford the demands placed on the system.

Union: We have given much already.

Management: You don’t seem to get it, we’re burning a billion dollars each 2 or 3 weeks.

Union: Keep talking like this and you’ll be looking at a walk out.

___________________________

I have worked for a Union. And I have been a shop foreman. I have dealt with both sides. Let’s clean house. Take haircuts. Remove the Union. Keep current employees working at a modest wage reduction. And start the campaign to remove the Darth Vader image that GM has built for itself. Yes GM, you look like crap now.

I just don’t see another way around this. Joe Public can not take another severe beating under runaway inflation and dollar devaluation.

Life after TARP:

Gasoline $4 a gallon
State tax 20% higher
All types of insurance 20% higher
Vendors demanding cash (loss of credit)
Execs at all levels taking lavish resort retreats.
Your $30,000 nest egg is now worth $18,000 in real money

+++++++++

It takes a friend to tell a friend that he’s pissin’ in the wind.

=D~

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Todd Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

People do not realize that the banking industry got their funds without question for one reason – AIG backs the national pension fund. Suprise!

As far as Rick, I know that if I was a leader and didn’t have a chance to correct my mistakes, I would be very disappointed. Though I really don’t like the guy, I think he deserves the chance to correct past mistakes. I believe that in the first few months of 2008 he realized that trouble was coming and started to make the changes. No one could predict the credit issues and the collapse of the economy. Simply, if those two things had not happend, GM would be hurting but would not be on the brink of BK. I also believe that an oversight committee needs to be watching over Rick and upper management moves. If they don’t make the changes that are needed, then show him and a few others the door.

My fear is that if the government pushes the present management out the door, then our Volt may also be put on hold or worse, canceled by any new management.

I think we are in a trend with the low cost of gas. Tonight I filled up my Avalanche for just a few cents over $50.00. That’s much less than half of what I use to pay to fill the tank. For those freaking out that I drive a big SUV, the majority of the time I ride my motorcycle. A 60% chance of rain today forces me to drive my truck. I also haul my RV with my truck, something the Volt won’t do. If gas remains down for another few months, the BIG SUV’s will be in demand again.

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JEC Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

JEC
Edited my self Nothing to see here…move along.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 9:40 pm

hi Todd #134,

“… the majority of the time I ride my motorcycle…”

________________________

When the E-REV arrives I plan on selling my truck and my motorcycle. Taking the tax credit of $5000 (I think it will be less than $7500) and buying the car with cash.

Since the battery is coming from Asia, I suppose the rest of the car may be as well.

Oh the drama.

=D~

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JaimeT Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

Obviously all the CEOs of the small 3 should be fired. Why reward them for running their companies straight into the ground.

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koz Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Government has no business demanding a CEO resign. Even if they did, they should be tossing the board as well if they are advocating a failure of leadership. Dodd is certainly within his responsibility to express displeasure with Wagoner’s leadership, dismay with any of his decisions, issue with failure to take action, or even his preference that the board change the CEO. The venue and timing for expressing his opinions was in poor taste. His self-serving grandstating is a bit pathetic.

Wagoner has done some good and some bad but I think if you GM’s plan closely you’ll realize their top management still doesn’t get 100% of it. The basics of the plan are OK but there are some subtleties that indicate some obstinance and lack of responsibility. Wagoner insisted, only a few months ago, that their finances were in order and they had liquidity assured through 2009. Markets and the economy have certainly been in extreme decline but that is no excuse to misjudge your financial situation by 500% in such a short period. He is either an incompetant fool or a blatant liar. Large sharholders or anyone buying stock around that time should seek council.

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Nelson Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

I think the person that has to go is the one setting compensations at GM.
That’s who’s responsible for giving the company away.

NPNS!

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john1701a Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

I’ve heard that Europe sets standards in terms of emissions per mile, while the U.S. standards are in terms of emissions per gallon.

Do you know if this is true?
__________________________________

EPA measurements to determine emission rating are based on 15,000 mile samples and must be maintained for 100,000 to 120,000 miles. CARB extends requirments to 150,000 miles.

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Cautious Fan Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:42 pm

DonC

Your favorite Nobel prize winning economist has chimed in on the future of the auto industry.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/07/krugman-us-auto-industry_n_149082.html

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koz Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

JEC #132,

“I was asking yesterday, if the falling gas prices might begin to help (I did not say solve) GM and the others. I got some very informative feedback from the local expert (we all know who it is, and I think his head may grow to large to get into his Smart4Two, so I will not mention his name….hint…hint..nudge…nudge..). I was all told I had no idea what I was talking about, but again I was putting out the question not stating any facts”

Anybody doubting that cheap gas would not help GM with their current lineup should have their head examined. It should also be noted that commodity, transportation, and other manufacturing costs have come WAY down in the last few months. The car market is still extremely soft and the economy will continue to decline so GM is not in danger of being profitable anytime soon, but those positive elements will help make the losses more manageable.

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koz Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

Statik #125,

“Just as FYI, the gov’t is looking for/demanding at most 30 cents on the dollar from those bondholders. That was the absolute ceiling proposed by anyone on the two days of hearings I watched. With the amount of debt GM is carrying and the environment they find themselves in, if they were to go under receiving this ‘bridge’ from the gov’t, the bondholders would be lucky to see 10 cents on the dollar.”

I’m not nearly as tuned into GM’s numbers as you so I’ll take 10 cents worth. This is more in line with bankruptcy,thus the 50 cents best case. Makes it a lot easier to believe the government will get concessions from the bondholders without direct force. I assume 30 cents from the bondholders is their give and 70 cents is their take. They should be very happy with this if the rest of concessions put GM in a “reasonable” position to turn things around.

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George K Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:24 pm

#126 DonC
“… And like you, yes, I prefer car stuff.”

Don, point taken.

=D~~~~

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koz Says:
December 8th, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Static #130

“Reminds me of this sucker rally we have going on in the market right now. Endless bad news, piles and piles of it, and virtually no good news (other than more bailout money)…and the market goes up?”

Agreed, foolish rally. The news that has come out was factored in beforehand, so the market will be relatively stable to up until the next round of bad news starts leaking. Anybody believe unemployment is actually 6.7%? Anybody believe GDP sunk by only 0.5% in 3rd quarter? Anybody believe the pace of bankruptcies will steady or decrease? Anybody believe foreclosures have peaked? Anybody believe there was any “real” overall economic growth from 2000-2008? By “real” economic growth, I mean after stripping away the trillions of dollars of over-speculative real-estate development and all of the related effects. We are staring at some very difficult times it will take a lot of persaverance and hard work to turn things around. We will do it, but it will take time. The sooner our national consciousness understands the full effects our current situation, the sooner we can reach capitulation and start the real work toward recovery. We cannot simply invest enough and expect the world to invest enough in the next speculative market this time. Everyone is too freshly burned and the hole is too deep. We will have to work our way out of this one. Let us understand it, accept it, grit our teeth and find a way to gain strength from it.

NPNS LJGTVWOTR!
Start your own recovery plan, BUY (NORTH)AMERICAN!

HOORAH!

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jbfalaska Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 1:42 am

America, Canada, France, Britain, Spain, the Free World, all of the Free World must get off Middle-East oil. Along with our currency, our freedom is going away.

Bring out the Volt. This is truly a time for an activist government. I’d agree with Senator Dodd and state, the government now IS the owner following the bailout and has every right to say change the CEO as the leading stockholder. All of us should insist no CEO make more than a Japanese, highly successful auto CEO. Why 16 to 25 x that amount while losing billions upon billiions is wrong.

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DonC Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 1:50 am

#141 Cautious Fan – “What I actually said was that the concentration of the industry around Detroit would disappear.”

Well don’t know if he’s “the” favorite but he’s awfully good. Also apparently misquoted. He says he didn’t say that at all. He claims: “What I actually said was that the concentration of the industry around Detroit would disappear.”

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/me-misreported/

Who the heck ever relies on the Huffington Post? LOL

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Unni Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 3:07 am

It is time for me to introduce next big word from east india ( after yoga etc ).

The word is Swadeshi.

Mahatma Gandhi described Swadeshi as “a call to the consumer to be aware of the violence he is causing by supporting those industries that result in poverty and harm to workers and to humans and other creatures”

The Swadeshi movement, part of the Indian independence movement, was a successful economic strategy to remove the British Empire from power and improve economic conditions in India through following principles of swadeshi (self-sufficiency).

Strategies of the swadeshi movement involved boycotting import products and the revival of domestic-made products and production techniques.

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DonC Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 3:12 am

#132 JEC – “Well I decided to peak around and sure enough, it does seem that SUV sales are back on the rise with steep decline in gas prices.”

#142 Koz – “Anybody doubting that cheap gas would not help GM with their current lineup should have their head examined.”

Apparently America needs its collective head examined because its not happening. Contrary to what you’re suggesting, GM truck sales in November were hardly on the rise. In fact, they were down by 39%. More disturbing for the “gas as sales driver” argument, they were down this dramatically even in the face of special Red Tag Sale pricing offering, for example, discounts and cash back worth something like $7.5K on a SUV or truck normally priced at $29K. Not to mention the special financing deals for GMAC vehicles.

So we know: (1) decreasing gas prices are being accompanied by declining truck sales; and (2) assuming we had increasing truck sales, which we don’t, gas prices couldn’t realistically be playing any role in that increase given the huge discounts and cash back offers. For example, $7.5K represents a whole lot of the gallons — 3750 to be exact — for a differential between gas priced at $2/gal and gas priced at $4/gal. What is that, six or seven years of gas? For consumers who empirically want a payback in a year or less? Fundamentally trucks are higher priced vehicles that need financing and a stable economy. Right now neither are present.

Moreover, if we step back and take a longer view it’s painfully obvious how the macroeconomic trends are overwhelming any effect gas prices have on sales. The numbers tell the story. For the first half of this year, when gas prices were high and rising, truck sales were down 16%. Now we have falling gas prices PLUS the much more important cash back, discount, and financing offers. If gas matters then sales should be up. But they’re not. They’re actually down by more than twice as much — 39%. May the gas idea RIP.

OK, so how can we have an article saying production is booming at a plant, absolutely booming, when sales are so far down? Maybe this is because GM is cutting back or closing other plants? Just a guess.

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Dave K. =D~ Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 5:46 am

It’s not just GM…

Sony slashing 8,000 jobs amid global downturn
Tuesday December 9, 3:11 am ET

Sony slashing 8,000 jobs, shutters plants as global downturn, stronger yen batters profits

TOKYO (AP) — Sony is slashing 8,000 jobs, or 4 percent of its global work force, aiming to cut costs by $1.1 billion a year as a global downturn and stronger yen batters profits at the Japanese electronics maker.
Sony Corp. , which has 185,000 employees worldwide, said Tuesday it will complete the layoffs by the end of March, 2010. It did not give a country breakdown for the job cuts but said they will come from its electronics business, which has 160,000 workers.

__________________________

Maytag, Foxwood Casinos, Holiday Lanes Bowling Centers, Captain Bob’s Fish N’ Chips, Yellow Cab International, Uncle Chens Fast Chow, Goodwill, Molly Maid Service, QVC, NRA, PBS, JVC, and several other firms have made inquiries into attaining TARP tax payer fund checks. Congress will reportedly go to work on these interests after Christmas break. Have a Happy Holiday.

=D~

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nasaman Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 7:27 am

Rick Wagoner is probably the best CEO/Chairman GM has had in decades, and as Bob Lutz says, the best he’s ever worked for! It would be a monumental mistake to fire him!!!

While I wholeheartedly support a bridge loan to GM, as well as congressional oversight with some real TEETH in it, I don’t believe Chris Dodd or any legislator has the experience or expertise to decide how GM should be restructured. Congress should appoint a brilliant guy like Lee Iacocca, who asked …..”Where have all the leaders gone?”….. to find some of those leaders to assist him in selecting one of their peers as the nation’s “Car Czar”.

This man, assisted by a hand-picked team of advisors, should be empowered to participate in the day-to-day restructing/reinvention of GM (and Chrysler) from top to bottom. For any specific conflicts GM or Chrysler could not (or would not) resolve in accord with the new Car Czar’s decision, Congress would enforce his authority.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 7:59 am

I think government expertise in running massive programs is needed at GM. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are just a few examples.

Has anyone noticed that almost all the great American companies are kaput?
Oh don’t worry, we can install energy saving lights in government buildings and stand on the seashore and watch the oceans recede.

We just had a 30% increase in electric rates to put emissions equipment on coal plants for AEP. Let’s talk about diminishing returns and the idiocy of government regulation.

My poor country, my poor children.

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statik Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 8:52 am

#132 JEC

I was asking yesterday, if the falling gas prices might begin to help (I did not say solve) GM and the others. I got some very informative feedback from the local expert (we all know who it is, and I think his head may grow to large to get into his Smart4Two, so I will not mention his name….hint…hint..nudge…nudge..). I was all told I had no idea what I was talking about, but again I was putting out the question not stating any facts.

Well I decided to peak around and sure enough, it does seem that SUV sales are back on the rise with steep decline in gas prices. People are actually still able to get loans or finance in other ways.
————–
#149 DonC

Apparently America needs its collective head examined because its not happening. Contrary to what you’re suggesting, GM truck sales in November were hardly on the rise. In fact, they were down by 39%. More disturbing for the “gas as sales driver” argument, they were down this dramatically even in the face of special Red Tag Sale pricing offering, for example, discounts and cash back worth something like $7.5K on a SUV or truck normally priced at $29K. Not to mention the special financing deals for GMAC vehicles.
=============================================
=============================================

I see where this is going, maybe I can diffuse it. You are actually BOTH right. (Just to be clear as to JEC’s veiled reference to me, lol–I was saying there was a uptick in SUV sales ‘at the street level’

Here is how it breaks down…because the fly is in the calculation. How can as DonC suggests trucks sales be off 39%? (Actually, if we want to strip it down to the core business-specifically GMC, it was off more, -41%) How can JEC and myself point to people saying it is ‘better’ at the same time?

As DonC mentioned, there is a lot of discounts out there, and as JEC mentioned-’gas is cheap,’ this is in fact driving sales up (on a month over month basis). HOWEVER, this is NOT translating to sales…at least to GM, and therefore has not shown up yet in any published numbers.

The monthly numbers and product breakdown of sales are not calculated from monthly sales between the consumer and dealership, but rather dealership and GM…which is practically frozen up.

The fact is, the dealers have a pantload of inventory and they are capturing those sales, ie) not turning around and ordering replacement stock…that is why GM is trying to blackmail them with the ‘Dealer Re-Consenus Program”

Here is inventory levels (days) as of Nevember 1st to illustrate:

Enclave – 142
Acadia – 195
Vue – 196
Escalade – 149
Silverado – 95
Trailblazer – 97
Tahoe – 147

As reference the number ‘60′ is industry optimal level. The overall industry stood at 69 days…and GM? 126

Obviously, dealers got blindsided by ‘falling knife’ sales in the last 3 months and their ‘days on lot’ numbers are expanding, even if inventory itself is not. So when they sell a Tahoe, GM is NOT recapturing that sale…and it is not being recorded as a ‘uptick in sales’

NOTE: Look at those numbers and think about GMAC’s letter to the dealers, “You owe 5% per month on outstanding vehicles and the vehicle is DUE IN FULL in 180 days…or you are in arrears and we can cut you off”–that is the environment the dealers are in…they are not reordering, they are just trying to pay their bills and realign inventory to current demand.

Side note: Other products that were interesting for GM:

Solstice – 361
Astra – 411
XLR – 358
Cobalt – 220
Corvette – 219
G5 – 267
G8 – 283

/so everyone is right, lol

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stas peterson Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

#44 Charlei h,

You say that RW has had nine years. As far as I know he became CEO in 2005, and the first thing he did was engage the UAW in finding a way to level labor and legacy costs. Without that change, the domestics could not allocate the same amount of money to be put into a vehicles that the imports do. Consumers could see the shortchanging, in features, fit and finish and quality.

The UAW contracts of 2005 and 2007 equalized costs by 2010, after a transition of only 3-5 years. Who else would have succeeded at all? Never mind in only such a short transition time.

He didn’t plan for, Franklin Raines, Tim Johnson and Jamie Gorelick along with Chris Dudd and Barney F(ife)rank looting Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Lehman Brothers. Or Ahmedinjehad using the Oil weapon, and $4.50 gasoline.

The downturn came a year too soon. Before the transition was finished, and the transition costs amortized.
The cars designed on his watch assume equal money is available, and will be used, to be spent for features that the foreign companies have, given equal labor and legacy costs. The new cars have been well received from Pickup trucks to Malibu and crossovers like Vue. New technology like the large Dual mode hybrid drive, the coming smaller car-sized Dual mode hybrid, Plug in hybrids, and the Volt EREV, are coming under his watch. As well as a competitive vehicles below the award winning mid-size Malibu, like the worldwide Cruze.

All in all, he has done a pretty good job in his THREE Years as GM CEO… IMHO, the best job since Al Sloan. He is even looking at growing GM, as you can’t grow a business by downsizing. He is looking forward to entering new markets like Sloan did with electric starters, hydraulic brakes, and multi-sized autos.

Wagoner wants to add 300,000 minivans to his product line, that doesn’t have any. And add small off-road vehicles, Jeep, for a product line that doesn’t have any small off-roaders. Even as he chops redundancy by emasculating redundant Pontiac, to a subbrand, and rationalizing the sales channels to Chevy Caddy and a combined Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Dodge Trucks, and Jeeps, PBGDJ. Did you know that the PBG mergers are 80% completed already, by sales volume?

No wonder both Lee Iacocca and Bob Lutz don’t want him fired,and ahve come out and said so publically.

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N Riley Says:
December 9th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

# 154 stas peterson

I, too, agree that Rick Wagoner has done a good job and should be able to complete the restructuring. If anyone should resign, it is Chris Dodd. That horse’s ass is a real joke.

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Primes Says:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:08 am

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