At 930AM EST the second day of the Detroit 3 CEOs giving testimony has begun. This time before the House of Representatives.
The executives are of course pleading for $34 billion in loans to remain solvent. GM is likely to collapse by the end of this month if they do not get $4 billion immediately.
It appeared progress was made yesterday in the Senate with some signs of support, but whether the loans occur or if a package will be voted on next week remains unknown. The idea of a prepackaged bankruptcy appear to be less favorably viewed than a bridge loan. As well, sources for a loan remain unknown, TARP versus retooling fund.
This morning Mr. Wagoner drove in in a fuel cell Equinox, not in the Volt mule, which presumably went back home to its test track in Detroit. The was a large continent of demonstrators from many auto related industries on Capital Hill as well. Their site is EngineofDemocracy.com
Live Video Feed of House Hearing is Below:
This entry was posted on Friday, December 5th, 2008 at 9:52 am and is filed under Financial, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Dec 5th, 2008 (9:55 am)FIRST a First for me.
They’ll get it…
Dec 5th, 2008 (9:57 am)Well, here’s to hoping that they can make their case and get that loan.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:04 am)I’m not sure how this can work out favorably for our favorite EREV developer, but I’m certainly hoping they make it through all this. I still think there is no reason an entire fleet of vehicle types cannot be designed around the technology developed for the Volt — that would easily position GM perfectly for the future.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:05 am)I wouldn’t bet on it. Eventually something will happen, mostly because it has to, but this is one very lame duck session. My guess is the White House will blink and Paulson will kick the problem down the road for Jan 20th.
I’d like to see the government force a restructure along the lines GM has laid out but more radical and with more UAW concessions, especially on the work rules (pay is not that big of a deal if you can cut the amount of labor needed to produce a car). Chrysler needs to be merged into one of the other two.
Though not discussed, Paulson may be motivated because of the credit default swaps. There are a lot of swaps written on GM debt. If GM does 11 or 7 that will be a recognizable event and those entities which wrote he insurance will be forced to pay up. Given the opaque nature of credit swaps no one knows who that is, but it’s a reasonable guess that the guys who wrote the other policies wrote these. IOW AIG and the gang. Which of course means that if GM goes into bankruptcy Treasury would need to pony up even more bailout money. Not a desirable event.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:20 am)I think the issue now is not if they ‘want’ to do, but will the amount of red tape and hurdles stop them from doing it by monday? (I think we realize that a failed vote means GM is bankrupt almost the instant the vote is read).
It looks like we have multiple different ‘plans’ being propsed from lawmakers/houses, can they all get together and make one unified plan and then get behind it and vote for it?
——
Side note: I was rewatching some footage from yesturday when they were talking about the ability of consumers to get credit and credit worthiness of their dealer network, when Wagoner said that it had degraded to the point where only consumers with credit rating of 770 or more were getting financing. (only 6% of all november sales at GM where financed by GMAC)
770? That is what you need in the US now to access financing? Ouch. I know mortgage/refi apps were up like 112% in november in the US because of the rate cuts…but I have to believe the majority of those are going to be denied.
The national average was about 680 not that long ago, and only 13% are over 800.
http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Debt-Consolidation/National-Average-Credit-Score/
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:33 am)Statik, if someone if very careful with their finiances, 770 is very easy to acheive. I took a loan out for a car a few months ago. I had an 858 I was told. I have a mortgage, credit cards, bills, etc. I just pay on time.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:41 am)In the mean time Toyota has put up a web page with a Count down clock for the Generation III Prius Launch
http://www.toyota.com/upcoming-vehicles/index.html
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:42 am)no GM bashing please unless you have up-to-date facts or else …..
Go GM Go !
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:43 am)#6 Rashiid
Statik, if someone if very careful with their finiances, 770 is very easy to acheive. I took a loan out for a car a few months ago. I had an 858 I was told. I have a mortgage, credit cards, bills, etc. I just pay on time.
————————————
I am talking FICO score. The max is 850. I think what you were told was your VantageScore (a relatively new model set up by the big 3 — Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion). It makes more sense actually..and on this system is 990, and starts at 500.
Most mortgage lenders and all auto finance lenders make loan decisions based on FICO scores.
A FICO score of 770 is equal to appoximately 900 on the VantageScore.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:48 am)Statik, that makes sense to me. When I went for my mortgage, I only had an 820 while my wife had an 825. The loan officer (stupid as this is going to sound) said she didn’t know the scores went that high.
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:54 am)#10 Rashiid
Statik, that makes sense to me. When I went for my mortgage, I only had an 820 while my wife had an 825. The loan officer (stupid as this is going to sound) said she didn’t know the scores went that high.
———————————
All part of the problem…and how we got to where we are now.
As you say, even some ‘loan officers’ don’t know what is going on or how the system works, which is disgraceful…no standards at all. I’d wager very few people have a good understanding of the systems that are out there or the scoring itself.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:15 am)It may not be a lost cause after all.
The same guy that argued in favor of giving Wall Street & the bankers the contents of the treasury, House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank, now favors car rescue.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081205/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos
Maybe he’ll be remembered as the guy who save the Volt?
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:15 am)“…GM’s Last Chance Plea for Survival”
Lyle, this is total B.S.!!!!!
Only Bankruptcy Reorganization can rid them of the Union cancer so they can compete with the REST of the world.
Socialism only makes for MORE socialism.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:22 am)Tim #13
When the big 3 were making money hand over fist on their SUV’s, why was there no call to rid themselves of the “Union cancer”?
What I found so interesting about the Wall Street/Banker bail-out was the broad bipartisan support for it.
Who would of thought so many conservatives & republicans would be in favor of socialism?
Go figure.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:23 am)“Union cancer” are strong words. Union legacy costs are painful because of the 4-to-1 retiree to active employee ratio. That’s a lot of pension money and healthcare money.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:27 am)hi User Name #14,
“so many conservatives & republicans would be in favor of socialism”
_______________________________
I compare the trillion $ loan to the banks right along side the shock and awe assault.
We woke up one morning and looked at our flickering TV box and said a collective, “What!?”.
______________________________
a definition:
Shock and awe, technically known as rapid dominance, is a military doctrine based on the use of overwhelming power, dominant battlefield awareness, dominant maneuvers, and spectacular displays of force to paralyze an adversary’s perception of the battlefield and destroy its will to fight.
=D~
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:30 am)Why is it these Lawmakers had no problem with $150 Billion totally wasted Pork barrel spending added to the $700 Billion Bank bailout bill but a loan of 5% of that to save millions of jobs is off the table.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:38 am)Other random news on the wire now:
Crude oil Jan contracts under $42 right now
$41.91 -$1.70
—————–
Forclosures/delinquencies, jump over 25%
Delinquencies, foreclosures rise to 10 percent of US home loans in third quarter
WASHINGTON (AP) — A record one in 10 American homeowners with a mortgage were either at least a month behind on their payments or in foreclosure at the end of September as the source of housing market pressure shifted to the crumbling U.S. economy.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081205/home_foreclosures.html
================================
It is impossible to sell new cars to the portion of the population who can’t make their mortgage payment or losing their home…and that number is currently climbing by 25% quarter over quarter.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:39 am)#16 Dave K.
We resonate in sympathy on this, we agree.
Please read “The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism” by author Naomi Klein.
It fits does’nt it?
Basically, our elected officials & the American people were told that if we did’nt bail-out Wall Street & the bankers right away, God would die & the Sun would cease to exist, sending the Earth pirouetting into the dark & frozen depths of outer space.
No time for discussion, no time for debate, just hand over the money & no one gets hurt.
Now that’s some SHOCK & AWE.
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:47 am)Despite my disagreement and many others as well, I believe the big 2.755555 will get the money/loan. I’m just going to wait for the song and dance to be over with so I can get my Volt.
Why’s the Rum gone!
Dec 5th, 2008 (11:50 am)@randy 17
Because it’s easier to give money away than it is to “Loan” it…..
lol
There are apparently rules you need to follow for a Loan.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:10 pm)#19 User Name:
How funny. Last night I was searching around for that book at Borders. I vaguely remembered a review on NPR, but could not recall the specific title or author. Naturally, I got nowhere. Now you come along with the information I need. Thanks. What a blog, and what sophisticated bloggers. Back to Borders, I guess.
#20, CaptJackSparrow:
Yeah man, I could really use a shot right now. I went to Costco yesterday. If I had been thinking, I would have picked up a couple of cases!
NPNS
DBNGCMEMEV
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:25 pm)hi noel park #32,
“… I could really use a shot right now. I went to Costco yesterday. If I had been thinking, I would have picked up a couple of cases!”
___________________________
It’s not my modus operandi, but an Irish coffee sounds pretty good right now.
=D~
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:25 pm)I think this is the first time I have spent watching C-Span.
Good golly some of these Congressmen and women are coming across as completely clueless. Some of there questions are inane, some aren’t really questions at all or are focused on minutae that is not relevant to the big picture.
We are doomed.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:31 pm)GM needs to make the Volt the best engineered, highest quality, most reliable, coolest car on the planet. I want it to blow people’s minds when it comes out. Make all those car magazine folks say … “wow, GM got their stuff together BIGTIME with this Volt … it’s unbelievable”.
For the rest of GM’s vehicle lineup, they need to get “focused like a laser beam” on simply this … BEAT TOYOTA. Make higher quality, super reliable, cool looking cars that beat Toyota in every “side by side comparison” and technical benchmark that’s out there. Whatever they gotta do to get there. JUST DO IT. Make it happen. GM’s future is very bright if they do.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:32 pm)It Looks Lke a High probability that it will go through 136 and tarp . That would be best for all and not at all bad for the big 3 .
Just looking at the letter from the house they have a good plan that has high hope to work and are planning for the worst . If the Congress passes some bottom up like updating State and local equipmet then tax payer dollars are used to bennie the tax payer and in full view of the tax payer . Some of the utility trucks here are made in the 1970′s . The city would like to get some replaced but are looking at USED not new.
God’s Blessings
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:38 pm)If we give them the money then what are they going to do next quarter that they are not doing now? Ask again in a nicer way?
Are we going to fund them month to month until they go down?
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:40 pm)#24 Tony Gray
I think this is the first time I have spent watching C-Span.
Good golly some of these Congressmen and women are coming across as completely clueless. Some of there questions are inane, some aren’t really questions at all or are focused on minutae that is not relevant to the big picture.
We are doomed.
==============================
Waters is certifiable. She is the worst of the bunch. She was grilling Chrysler and the other about why they are not giving credit to their small, independant…largely minority own dealers credit.
She has no clue how anything works…and makes my ears bleed.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:43 pm)You catch that last phrase from Wagoner? (if anyone is actually listening). In response to getting the Volt to market quicker and ramping up production faster from some other insane, crazy member of the panel who clearly also has no understanding of the car business.
“We really need to ramp production as quickly as possbile, we have a VERY LONG WAITING LIST FOR THE VOLT ALREADY”
–You do? I would think someone here at GM-Volt.com might have some knowledge of the existence of that list. What the heck is he talking about?
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:52 pm)Wow, CEOs lying?? That’s never happened before.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:55 pm)Good catch Statik @ 29…nothing gets by you (eh, I’ll keep it happy today). There can’t be another waiting list unless dealers are making one separately. There are waiting lists like those out there, as members here have placed deposits allegedly. They must be talking about Lyle’s.
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:57 pm)#29
As usual, his replys “fit” the circumstances. This website has convinced me the volt is really a PR stunt. But since people were not willing to invest their $ in GM stock because of the volt they are sinking fast.
GM could have gotten alot of support by taking the so called volt to washington, get the media there, let some independant engineers look it over and give them a show going 25+ miles down the highway at 60 MPH. The 2 mile trip from a hotel over city streets just doesnt cut it for a so called “production” volt
Dec 5th, 2008 (12:57 pm)Gary (#15) said:
“Union cancer” are strong words. Union legacy costs are painful because of the 4-to-1 retiree to active employee ratio. That’s a lot of pension money and healthcare money.”
Gary, what will that ratio be once 50% (or more) of the current workforce joins the jobs pool?
Anyone want to talk about how “Union Legacy Costs” compare to the Social(ist) (in)Security Pyramid Scheme http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme and how socialism strangles and negates the advantages of competition on the “free” market?
Yep, we all know that the Social(ist) (in)Security Pyramid Scheme is in GREAT shape…
Central Planning from Washington (Socialism) and FIAT currency (not Constitutional money) created this problem but Socialist “liberals” both NeoCon & Democrat are too thick headed to recognize this FACT so they just regulate MORE and print MORE!
What about that Constitution thingy? You know… rule of LAW!
Tony (#24) is correct… “We are Doomed” because we REFUSE to learn from the mistakes of nations that have FAILED before.
Central Planning ALWAYS leads to collapse because politicians are NOT smarter than market forces!
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:26 pm)Statik #18, to add to your very less than thrilling news you posted, there were over 533,000 people laid off in November alone, the worst month for lay offs in 34 years. That’s more than 1 in 200 jobs in our country are gone just in 30 days.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081205/financial_meltdown.html
The auto industry is just seeing the tip of the ice berg of this financing nightmare.
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:33 pm)#28 Statik:
Is that our homegirl Maxine you’re dissing? Oh my, oh my.
#29 Statik & #31 Dave B:
Yeah, good catch for sure. Dr. Dennis rules! I’m not buying any GM stock, but I still might put down a Volt deposit, just as sort of a leap of faith. Maybe a bit less than I have offered in the past though, LOL.
$500 to get on a real GM sanctioned list?? If they vanish, at least we could say we stood up for what we are blogging about. Maybe I would feel better when the terrible day came when I finally had to buy a Honda or Toyota. Perish the thought.
NPNS!
DBNGCMEMEV
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:45 pm)#18 statik says “WASHINGTON (AP) — A record one in 10 American homeowners with a mortgage were either at least a month behind on their payments or in foreclosure at the end of September as the source of housing market pressure shifted to the crumbling U.S. economy.” and says that these people can’t buy cars
===============================================
Well yes, but reading it the other way 9 out of 10 mortgages are not behind, and there are millions of residences that do not have a mortgage at all, so there are a lot of people who could if they wanted to. Right now everybody has pulled in because of a sense of uncertainty. It won’t last forever. People will get tired of it and start buying things they need once again, and autos will be on that list.
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:47 pm)#32 THOM
GM could have gotten alot of support by taking the so called volt to washington, get the media there, let some independant engineers look it over and give them a show going 25+ miles down the highway at 60 MPH. The 2 mile trip from a hotel over city streets just doesnt cut it for a so called “production” volt
————————————————–
You only have one chance to make a good first impression. When GM will be absolutely sure that everything is working as predicted, they will get it out there. They have a reputation to rebuild, they better get their act together before showing anything ‘officially’ to the press.
As for the so called ‘independant engineers’, how can someone be sure of their independance? Why show your unique design as soon as possible to Toyota or the competition ?
One false move and they are doomed. They is no more room for error, they already made too many. That’s what led them where they are now. I think they need to be very careful with the Volt and get it right before lauching it officially. Take the time it needs, don’t rush it. Sometimes, slow is fast and fast is slow.
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:51 pm)#22 Noel Park, Glad to be of service.
In addition to author Naomi Klein, I’d also like to recommend author Jeremy Scahill as well.
These authors are routinely featured on the independent news program “Democracy Now”.
Hope you find these of interest.
http://www.democracynow.org/
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:56 pm)There is a good piece on this situation in this week’s (12/1/08) Autoweek. Written by Kevin A. Wilson.
He notes the much higher levels of cooperation between auto companies and governments in Japan, Germany, France and Korea.
The final paragraph speaks pretty well to this thread:
“The best possible outcome would be a new era of government-industry partnership in pursuit of shared goals. That would demand leadership on both sides of this squabble. So far, we’ve seen none.”
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:58 pm)Bush cracked first, just backed the bailout now in a little press thing in the rose garden. That should all but finalize this thing.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081205/congress_autos.html
/now I can stop watching this ‘special torture’ meeting
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:58 pm)Extreme capitalist mortgage market schemers are the ones who screwed up the economy BAD. Not so much the unions. GM was not positioned well enough to ride out a downturn in the economy THIS bad.
The “bad guys” on Wall Street have CLEARLY been the reason the economy has gone down the tubes. The “laissez faire” extreme capitalism “anything goes” crowd. Nobody will dispute that one. Greedy people like at AIG, Lehman Brothers, Citigroup, Countrywide Financial, etc.
The greed of Wall Street is ALWAYS something that we NEED government to keep a very close eye on. Ever hear about the “tulip mania” in the 1600s?
http://www.stock-market-crash.net/tulip-mania.htm
When Wall Street screws up bad … EVERYONE gets punished for it. Government regulations need to be put in place so these mortgage “ponzi” schemes can never happen again. SOMEBODY has to “pop these bubbles” and “take the punch bowl away” to deal with the madness of greedy human beings.
Never underestimate the “groupthink” phenomenon when it comes to Wall Street. Yes, large numbers of people all thinking alike CAN indeed be VERY wrong. Regulations for Wall Street are like traffic lights, stop signs and guard rails for cars on highways and twisty roads. GOTTA HAVE THEM or there’s chaos and a lot of smashed up cars in the ditch.
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:58 pm)#32 Thom
“The 2 mile trip from a hotel over city streets just doesnt cut it for a so called “production” volt”
————
It was a pre-preduction Volt. Wagoners words after he got out of it.
Dec 5th, 2008 (1:59 pm)#38 User Name:
Well maybe that’s where the book stuck in my mind. Amy Goodman rocks. I listen to her every chance I get. Our local outlet is Pacifica KPFK.
Thanks again.
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:03 pm)Statik @#29 – Hey, is he car-jacking Lyle’s Volt wait list? A dream come true for me if he is! But if he is jacking Lyle’s list he better deliver, or I’ll be ticked for one.
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:11 pm)Does all of this help those of us who are on the waiting list get our Volt any sooner?
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:13 pm)I love this market:
–500K+ unemployment number (210K over expectation)
–Goldman Sachs loss forecast widens
–Delinquincy and foreclosure rates skyrocket
–New massive bailout money propsed for customer financing
–34 billion going out to automakers to just bridge them to the next administration
–Highest percentage of people NOT in the workforce since they started tracking it
–Merrill is out with a report now that oil could go to $25
There is not one good news item on virtually any business news channel…other than the odd editorial piece.
Is the DOW off 300 points, Nasdaq treading off 5-6%?
No, Nasdaq is up 11 points, DOW and S&P only off 50 and 3 points respectively. If I was trading this thing…I would be pulling my hair out, lol.
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:15 pm)GM and the rest of the auto industry need to LISTEN TO THIS GUY! Amory Lovins.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10112893-54.html
“Cars can be made half as heavy as they are today by using composite materials such as light but strong carbon fiber, a choice that gives manufacturers more flexibility and reduces costs in production. “Lightweighting” lowers the engineering bar for alternative powertrain technologies as well, he argues. With less weight to haul around, expensive batteries can be smaller and fuel cell vehicles become feasible.
The other technology changes required to set automakers on the right path are aerodynamics and software for remote diagnostics and other tasks.
“Whatever your advanced powertrain is, especially if it’s all-electric, it will be a great deal smaller and cheaper and lighter if you first get the platform physics right–making the car light and slippery,” he said. “If you don’t do that and your competitors do, you’re toast.”
Many businesses fail to make high-performing products because they don’t practice what he calls “integrative design,” or making design choices to optimize the entire vehicle rather than individual components. In the case of U.S. auto companies, there’s a cultural bias toward powertrain engineering.”
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:20 pm)#24 Tony Gray
I started watching Cspan a lot of years ago, I think it should be mandatory for every citizen in the US to watch for at least two hours a day when the congress is in session. Then 90% of the Reps ad Senators would not be reelected, most of them are clueless about most everything.
NO PLUG NO SALE, DBNGCMEMEV, LJGTVWOTR, (my house)=D~~~~~(my volt)
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:21 pm)40 Statik
Bush cracked first, just backed the bailout now in a little press thing in the Rose garden. That should all but finalize this thing.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081205/congress_autos.html
/now I can stop watching this ’special torture’ meeting
—————-
You could have stopped at 11AM when someone posted this at #12.
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:23 pm)If he is talking about our list, I’m number 110, if that matters at all.
Dec 5th, 2008 (2:59 pm)#49 kdawg
You could have stopped at 11AM when someone posted this at #12.
————————–
Indeed, I could have, lol. I didn’t jump to the link, I just read the post. Guess I wasted 3 hours of my life today.
==============================================
Side note: On the backs of some of the all-time worst news (exceeding estimates) dropping today:
DOW+174
NASDAQ: +45
S&P: +19
/perfect sense
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:05 pm)#47 GM Volt Fan
Agreed, Amory is awesome.
He is the creator of the Hypercar®, and as a result was labeled a screwball, and in general completely ignored by the automakers.
I should really say feared by the automakers, because that’s what it is.
I’ve always found aircraft & automobiles an interesting technological disparity.
In the aviation field, any time new technology & leading edge design are developed, they are immediately implemented.
In the automobile industry, just the opposite.
Ultralight construction, low-drag designs, hybrid-electric drives & efficient accessories are routinely rejected; functional battery electric vehicles are introduced & then subsequently crushed because you could’nt buy them; they would’nt let you.
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:06 pm)There are at least two lists. This one and the individual dealership lists. GM could sell 10,000 Volt this week if available. I’m number 10,576 on Lyle’s list.
=D~
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:23 pm)Just curious, has GM anounced who the battery supplier(s) will be?
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:24 pm)#47 GM Volt Fan:
All very true, especially as to the cultural bias toward powertrain engineering. Many of our competitors have more horsepower than we do. We prefer to make incremental improemnets in weight, handling and brakes. Always within the rules, of course. We are able to stay competetive, with better reliability and less cost. Any road racer will tell you that weight is the enemy, as is drag, unless you can trade it for downforce, which we cannot. Just hold you hand vertically and stick it out the window at 70 mph.
Mr. Lovins is a very impressive guy. I have seen him and his facility on TV a couple of times. Unfortunately, the cost issues with carbon fiber construction are very real. Interesting that the original Honda Insight, which was sort of a very advanced science project for improving fuel economy, was made entirely of aluminum. It weighed about 1850# and met all then current crash standards. Body damage was very expensive to fix, however.
The first thing I look at when I read a road test of a car is the weight. Everything else follows from that, IMHO.
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:32 pm)#53 Dave K:
I have talked to local dealers here in LA, and none of them will admit to having a list. I thought that Mr. Lutz, or some such personage, had denied the existence of a list here on at least one or two occasions. On the other hand, some bloggers have reported that their local dealers had started lists.
Are the dealers just freelancing? Do their lists have any validity? If the first year’s production is going to be something like 1 or 2 Volts per dealer, are they just making a list of potential auction participants? Should we take the Gulfstream down to Charlotte, NC, or wherever the mysterious list is, and try to sign up?
It sure would be nice if GM could get its act together on this list issue, as with so many other things.
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:33 pm)#40 statik said ‘Bush cracked first, just backed the bailout now in a little press thing in the rose garden. That should all but finalize this thing.”
================================
I read the link and didn’t see that. He was only restating the position he has taken all along, so far as I could tell.
Dec 5th, 2008 (3:56 pm)As to using composites and alternative materials, it is nice in theory, and yes cost per pound can be cheaper, but the vehicle must meet ever increasing safety standards, and nothing does it better and cheaper than steel right now.
Do you really think that a manufacturer would not use a product that realized efficiency gains, cost savings etc would NOT use it? especially if tey can sell it for the same price?
I offer as an example the infamous Chevy lumina APV mini van.
Ironically every one said the windshield was too big, and because they used alternate materials with a greater co-expansion rate, the panel gaps needed to be bigger. But that had a negative perceptin as to fit and finish. however the mileage was awesome (I know I still drive mine 250,000 on it, runs great) and evern 12 years later the body looks brand new..but it was a “look at how cheap this thing is” kind of bashing..now that is what they should do?
Damned if you do..damned if you don’t
Dec 5th, 2008 (4:10 pm)DOW +250, Nasdaq +56 S&P +30 now…on nothing.
So, I just made the 2nd trade in like 9 months, right at the close…and it is going to be exactly the same thing as last time (which made 60% in one day).
Jan Puts QQQQ (thats basically a Nasdaq tracking stock) strike $29.00–36 contracts (small, but just for my amusement)…cost me $2.22 a pop.
/I know a sucker rally when I see it
http://biz.yahoo.com/etfguide/081205/112_id.html?.v=1
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:13 pm)Off topic,
Just saw Bob Lutz on Larry King Live. Just caught the end with Lutz summarizing GM’s great strides with both high quality, and high fuel efficient cars, especially the Volt.
Larry’s comment was “Ge Bob. You don’t look 77 years old.” Lutz said, “Thanks Larry. You don’t look 88!” (Larry is 75)
I say, lets put Lutz in charge of GM.
=D~~~~
Dec 5th, 2008 (10:46 pm)GM VOLT FAN #41
“The “bad guys” on Wall Street have CLEARLY been the reason the economy has gone down the tubes. The “laissez faire” extreme capitalism “anything goes” crowd. Nobody will dispute that one.”
I can’t believe you said that about such heros when…
Neil Cavuto said on CNBC that it was all caused by giving “high risk loans to minorities”. Yep CRA and Equal Credit Opportunity Act brought down the entire world economy. Certainly couldn’t be those wonderful captains of finance on Wall Street that you may have called greedy by mistake!
Dec 6th, 2008 (3:19 am)Hey, Statik,
Now they’re hitting YOUR government up for some money, too!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081206/bs_nm/us_autos_bailout;_ylt=AuqbLaecc.ZvReI5hCMmTTOs0NUE
“Meanwhile, GM, Ford and Chrysler appealed to the Canadian and Ontario governments for billions in emergency loans against a backdrop of fresh layoffs at Ontario assembly plants. “We’re fighting for our survival,” said Reid Bigland, president and chief executive of Chrysler Canada.”
I still think they should go after the Swedes. Might as well get SOMETHING out of owning Saab besides just losses.
In any case, the article basically says agreement has been reached to make loans to keep them afloat until March. Expect a big circus in February!
Dec 6th, 2008 (5:28 am)Mitch #58
“As to using composites and alternative materials, it is nice in theory, and yes cost per pound can be cheaper, but the vehicle must meet ever increasing safety standards, and nothing does it better and cheaper than steel right now.”
Interesting little technical discuussion evolved here. Mitch is right in that costs drive the boat along with buyer perceptions. I think there are plenty of lighter materials that will do the job well enough or better than steel but cost has been the problem. The interesting part is that plug-ins change the metrics some. Eventhough drag becomes more important than weight with the overall energy use of a car with good regenerative breaking, reducing weight still has more value to a plug-in than an ICE only car.
In ICE only cars the engine power can be increased to compensate for addition weight at relatively small expense both in terms of cost and fuel economy. In racing this “expense” gets exagerated because of limited fuel and performance demands. Plug-ins, similarly, exagerate the benefits of reduced weight, albeit in some different ways. The high cost of batteries and on-grade power demands are what skews the weight factor. I’m sure the better engineers understand this. Hopefully the mangers do to and they have developed a per lb value metric for an EREV.
Contemplating this scenario can make one think about the 2nd generation EREV and a GM comment several months back that there would probably be a reduced cost, reduced range version. Lets say we start with a skin like the Cruze, fewer bells & whistles than the Volt but less costly design. We then use a 10KWh pack and cycle it 80-20%. If the Volt real sustainable price is $40,000, then this EREV Cruze’s sustainable price would be about $9000 less (assuming Volt 16KWh pack actually adds $10k to retail price, 2nd gen pack is 15% less, and Cruze design is about $4k less). This 10KWh Cruze would get about 5% better range (due to approx 150lbs less weight) and mileage in city driving (admitted swag and individual would obviously vary), so the 6KWh useable would provide about 31.5 miles AER. Let’s assume we use aluminum, composites, and other weight saving materials that add $1500 back into the cost but reduce weight by 300lbs. Continuing from the previous swag, this adds about 9% more city range so we are up to 34.3 miles AER. True GM may have to offer a shorter warranty (6 or 8 years) on the battery if 80-20% is used but they could offer the option of this or 10 year warranty for 80-30% (28.6 miles AER). Also with small refinements to the battery, power electronics, electric motors, and ICE one could easily imagine a 2nd generation EREV costing $30,000 with better performance and nearly 40 miles AER. Looking at all of the areas where performance, cost, and efficiency can be improved on an EREV, it is clear why GM is so excited by the Volt and why it’s support is so warranted.
Dec 6th, 2008 (7:40 pm)#62 Dave P
Hey, Statik,
Now they’re hitting YOUR government up for some money, too!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081206/bs_nm/us_autos_bailout;_ylt=AuqbLaecc.ZvReI5hCMmTTOs0NUE
“Meanwhile, GM, Ford and Chrysler appealed to the Canadian and Ontario governments for billions in emergency loans against a backdrop of fresh layoffs at Ontario assembly plants. “We’re fighting for our survival,” said Reid Bigland, president and chief executive of Chrysler Canada.”
I still think they should go after the Swedes. Might as well get SOMETHING out of owning Saab besides just losses.
In any case, the article basically says agreement has been reached to make loans to keep them afloat until March. Expect a big circus in February!
================================
Yeah, a lot of ridiculous requests too. Our tactic has been to stall them thus far. The political unrest makes it a little more tricky to get things done by the Chrysler and GM’s deadlines…but little opposition would be met for a tabled plan as, well all parties ran on a platform of assistance.
Here are the basic requests, and the likely outcome from the ‘Big 2.8′ from a Canadian perspective:
Chrysler:
What they say they need: 1.6 billion by Jan 1st
What they will likely get: Nothing, other than token parting gifts. Chrysler currently has about 7,000 total jobs in Canada (workers and execs), with the number expected to fall to 5,000…with the expectation Chrysler will be merged/sold and likely that number will be halved again. We can do math up here 1.6 does not equalt 2.5-5K jobs for 6 months.
Ford:
What they said they need: 2 billion line of credit…only used if conditions worsen
What they will likely get: We don’t do lines of credit as a rule. They are likely to ‘green lit’ for a one time access to the window for about half that
GM:
What they said they need: 2.5 billion in loans, 800 million this month…with the option to draw down 1.2 billion more if they don’t meet the ‘baseline plan’
What they will likely get: GM is likely to get the most, as they have new product actually still in the pipeline and coming to 3 cities (Ingersoll, St. Catherines and Oshawa), so there is a discernable return here even if they never get paid back. I’d look for the intial 800 million (late) and another 1 to 1.5 billion down the road.
Dec 7th, 2008 (12:51 am)#41
It was people on Wall Street in positions of Power Imported from Washington DC, that that did all the real damage. You want names ?
How about long time Democrat operative Franklin Raines who raped semi-governmental agency Fannie Mae. He paid himself $100 million; paid off the Democrats with campaign donations with about a single million dollars of campaign contributions and walked away. He is unlike the Enron guys who went to jail. Paying Protection Money works.
Then there was Tim Johnson, long time Democrat political operative in Washington who got himself appointed head of semi-governmental agency Freddie Mac up on Wall Street. He raped that agency for $75 million, paid his million dollars of campaign contributions “protections money” and no one is chasing him either. The taxpayers had to rescue Freddie Mac. These two agencies piles of junk paper, undermined lots of other financial institutions when their Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac assets turned to waste paper.
Then there is Jamie Gorelick, long time Democrat Washington insider and exClintonista, Who got hired for her political connections by Lehman Brothers. She of the fame who “built the wall” that wouldn’t let the CIA tell the FBI that Arab militants were in country taking airliner flying lessons but not landing lessons. She was as responsible as anyone for 9/11,according to the democrats own 9/11 Commission . Her wonderful judgement led Lehman Briothers into bankruptcy. She too paid her campaign donations for protection.
What do they all have in common?
None are Wall Streeters. All are politicians. All raped Wall street firms that then needed bailouts by the taxpayers. All paid political protection campaign donations. None are being talked of going to Jail. All are senior campaign staffers in the Obama campaign and transition teams.
All will probably get new jobs in the next Administration.
Best of all, All are laughing all the way to the Bank.
Dec 7th, 2008 (8:55 am)I think Japan will give our auto makers a 34B US$ grant, because they know how pathetic we are to allow ourselves to get in such a dire situation.
FYI, there was some humor in that, lol.