Last week GM vice-chairman wrote a blog post giving his first hand experience driving one of the latest Volt mules. These mules use a Chevy Cruze shell, but sit atop the same global compact delta platform the Volt will and use all internal Chevy Volt production-intent parts.
Many readers picked up on this comment he wrote:
“We started with about a 60-percent charge on the battery pack, to see how it would perform and when the engine would kick on,” and “to my delight, we went about 19 silent, electrically powered miles before that engine engaged.”
This led some of us to wonder exactly what he meant by the 60-percent charge.
I had the chance to ask him directly and got even more in return:
When you said the car was at 60% charge when you started did you mean 60% State of Charge or 60% of the way from depletion (30%) to 80% SOC?
Mr. Lutz’ reply:
“It was 60% of the 80% max-30% min band. That’s why I was so delighted that it went over 20 miles in cold weather and at 65 mph or more, steady-state! ”
So now we know for the first time how the Volt prototypes are using battery energy at steady-state highway speed and presumably heating the passenger cabin on a sub-freezing day.
Two points are worth mentioning. It turned out 4.8 kwh was used to go the 19 to 20 or so miles. Also these prototypes would be less efficient than production Volts due to the unrefined nature of prototypes and the fact that Cruze shells would be less aerodynamic than Volt shells.
Now let’s hear what you think!
This entry was posted on Monday, December 1st, 2008 at 12:23 am and is filed under Prototypes. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:42 am)I’m assuming here that the Volt will always display “% charge” as being within that 30 to 80% SOC “window”. This would imply that as a new car my “0-100% Charge” would have a lot of margin within the batteries’ actual storage capacity.
As the car and battery aged, however, the same “0-100% Charge” would still give me the same range, but by “end of life”, the batteries actual storage capacity would have decreased to the point that the “reported Charge” now represents the batteries’ actual capability?
>>In other words, I expect the Volt will under-estimate it’s range ability during it’s first few years in order to best preserve battery capacity and user confidence – and then degrade “gracefully” after that.
– What do you think?
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:47 am)interesting.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:55 am)was just reading about this guy who converted his car to electric himself and added a briggs and stratton lawnmover engine to the equation and gets 75 MPG!!! crazy, got me thinking, if this guy can buil this himself for $1500, wonder what i can build?
What’s his secret? Well, Dave’s Opel CT is a hybrid electric vehicle. That is, the car is driven by an electric motor . . . but that powerplant’s “juice” is generated with the help of an ordinary, fuel-stingy lawn-mower engine! Now the fact that the system works isn’t really surprising. What’s amazing is that the crossbreed hookup performs so well! According to David, the Opel has not only a virtually unlimited range (when driven prudently), but also a top speed of 90 miles per hour . . . and emits a minimum of pollutants as it tools along the highway. Better yet, the car can-if need be-run on its batteries alone for short in-town hops . . . and will never be “stranded” as long as there’s fuel in the “on board” generator!
“I began researching the idea for a hybrid electric auto about a year ago. There wasn’t much information to be found on the subject, so I designed a system from scratch. In about a month’s evening-and-weekend time, I had the car finished and running.”
HOW IT WORKS
In essence, David has utilized a small gas lawn-mower engine to drive a generator, which-in turn-supplies the vehicle’s drive motor with electricity. To do so, he first removed the Opel’s original power-plant and installed a 400-amp DC motor/ generator (actually a jet engine’s starting motor) in its place. (Since there’s no need for a clutch in Dave’s setup, the stock unit was pulled out and the main shaft of the drive motor was fastened directly to the input shaft of the car’s transmission.) Then, to provide a consistent source of power for this motor (and to supply an energy storage bank), the engineer installed four 12-volt, heavy-duty automobile batteries-in series-which are “fed” by a 100-amp generator that’s run off a 5-horsepower lawn-mower engine.
full details here : http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx
so what do you all think about that? makes me want to get tinkering in the shed “can i borrow your lawn mower nieghbour?”
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:56 am)I think this is great news. It is cold in MN, and I am a bit concerned about the heater depleting the battery prematurely. Go GM!
wahoo #3!
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:06 am)oh did i mention this guy did this home made series hybrid back in
Issue # 58 – July/August 1979
THATS RIGHT 1979 -
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:28 am)Great stuff Lyle.
That gives 31.66 miles on a full charge at highway speeds with the heater going. 40 miles on the ’06 city cycle in a warm shed with no aerodynamic drag looks easily doable.
LJGTVWOTR
NO plug, NO sale.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:41 am)Bob Lutz should drive up to Congress in a Volt mule on Tuesday and take them all for a ride.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:45 am)Dang, my daily commute is 42 miles round trip. We need 10.34 more miles!!
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:55 am)GM should provide plug-in hybrid electric vehicle conversion kits for its existing vehicles. It is the shortest path to reduce carbon emission and off foreign oil. GM can keep its plants at full capacity, making conversion kits for over 230 million vehicles and make money $$$.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:04 am)That didn’t impress me, but it wasn’t bad.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:16 am)A range of 32 miles may not sound impressive, but GM never sold the EV-1 nationwide because cold weather killed the EV range. To get something decent out of the box is encouraging.
It’s possible that the Volt, in warm weather, might be able to go 35 or so miles in a driving style approaching US 06. That would be a very pleasant surprise because the thinking has been the range with that driving style would be more like 28 miles.
We’ll just have to see what the final numbers are like. But this is great news.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:18 am)So with out the extender, it is like a Cruze with a one gallon gas tank!?
( I am looking for the EEstor Ultra capacitor version)
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:41 am)That’s right Duane, but its a magic gas tank that refills itself every night.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:44 am)Hey GM, I’m ready for the conversion kit. I’ll bring my Escalade to the dealer and have them convert it! TOMORROW!!!
About showing the Volt to Congress. I don’t know if they would understand it. It’s difficult for them to think being as they are all mentally challenged! However, give it a try. Nothing to lise… They hate Detroit and American cars anyway!
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:49 am)why not run these electric cars like we charge our soniccare toothbrusches threw electromagentic waves we can just put the electromagenitic wave thing under the road and the recevers in our cars and we have power without a battery
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:53 am)The CEO has zero credibility and needs to step down.
He lobbied the government to keep prevent the senate putting in laws to raise the MPG limits. The CEO is a loser and only interested in his own interests and not the peoples.
PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF INTEGRITY AND THE FUTURE OF YOUR COMPANY HAVE LUTZ STAND DOWN.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:19 am)O.K. – Lutz said “about 19 silent miles” in his first comment, then when asked for clarification he said “it went over 20 miles”. So if it goes 20 miles on a 60% charge (the charge they left in the battery available for gas free travel) then on a 100% charge you would expect the remaining 40% to take them another 40/60 times 20 miles or another 13.32 miles? That gives a range of 33.32 miles, not 40. So what gives? What am I forgetting?
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:20 am)NZ David; So every time I visit my son, 26 miles away, I’d have to stay overnight and plug into his power, most of which comes from coal.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:25 am)Not sure why he’s happy with the range – it seems like they’ve missed their target of 40 miles per charge. If 60% gets you 19 miles, 100% gets you 31.6 miles. Am I missing something?
Looks like I had the same question as Andy (#17)
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:28 am)Duane, its very narrow minded logic you use. We need to do both. Cars and power stations onto renewables. Just doing an electric car is one half, but at least we are on the way. WHICH IS BETTER THAN NO STEP FORWARD. Your sinicism implies we should do nothing at all!
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:28 am)i thought the whole idea of this car was it could take the average commuter 40 miles on pure electric power alone after plug in recharge , therfore using no oil or petrol, does it go 40miles on electric power !!? does it or doesnt it? im confused, highway this and city that, can this thing travel 40 miles on elec only or does it need the ice ? one or the other or a combination of the two, (Highway/City) <- anyone explain this? i just wanna know if i can get 40 mile / 64 klms on grid power only!
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:44 am)i dont know what you yanks wish for in a car, but us aussies want the following – (well most of us)
1: Reliability (which i believe electric power delivers perfectly!)
2: Power (Aussies dont like rice burner feeling, type cars)
3 Looks (Aussies have beautiful historic muscle cars)
4 RWD (I think in australia we wouldnt be caught dead in a front wheel drive car – well respectfully anywayz, many reasons why i feel FWD is inferior to RWD)
5 SEX APPEAL (car needs to be sexy!)
Please build us aussies a car for australia, one that can travel sydney to brisbane, on a single charge – whilst towing our carava/boat!
make it sexy
make it fast
make it cheap
make it rear wheel drive
make it soon!
most of all, make it ELECTRIC
do all of the above Chevy and there wont be an aussie without one!
stu-
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:48 am)My uncle owned a post office test van made back in the Mid 80′s they had a small fleet of them in Evansville In he bought it as surplus when the post office dropped the test. it got over 35 miles per charge then.. the only hard part was it was Left hand drive and the battery box was large enough to store 6 deep cycle lead acid batteries Charles Karalult did a human interest story on the van At the time he was the instructor of the School Of Industrial electricity in Madisonville Ky I forget the brand name of the small van but am not sure the max speed it ran but believe it was 45 or 50 mph it was only used for commuting about 15 miles a day I wonder If the ancient Electric cars from the early days of autos from a century ago are still avaialbe from the patent office? open air cars? back when the company would of built the controls the DC motor and the glass case lead acid batteries? or the Stanley steamer run the charger on available fuels Like solar power charger?? for main trickle recharge and some liquid fuel for cloudy days??
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:54 am)Kent R Says:
December 1st, 2008 at 3:48 am
your uncle still own the van?
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:57 am)To be fair, I would expect heating and air conditioning to use up some of the available electric energy planned for the 40 miles. But GM should have turned the heater off so they could get a good idea from this initial test report and public announcement. Sounds like they are cutting it too close. Hey, I want to see this electric car succeed too! But GM must eliiminate all suspicions that they are fudging numbers to make it appear all is well. If the battery is marginal, then increase the limits between max and min charge slightly to compensate. Or do they KNOW such a small modification would cut into battery promised/guaranteed life? We hear you Aussies – delighted that you would be good customers. I understand you don’t have the appetite for heat and air-conditioning that we softies in the US do! Perhaps it has something to do with your temperate climate.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:07 am)“it went over 20 miles in cold weather”
“presumably heating the passenger cabin” or not, wouldn’t it be better to put in a webasto-type diesel or petrol heater instead of taking it from the batteries? Burning fuel for direct heating gives nearly 100% efficiency. Much (most?) of the electricity stored in the batteries will be produced from fossile with far less efficiency, not to mention if using the batteries to heat means you will have to switch to engine to get home. So installing a webasto will make this car even ‘greener’ (unless you accept extra clothing or freezing).
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:47 am)Not to be Mr Negative, but the Volt is going to fail for there are very few idiots among us that will plop down $40,000 for a car which will (perhaps) obtain 40 miles under full, quiet electric power after which the 1.4 liter ICE will kick in to extend the range. One little tidbit – who is going to want to drive 42 miles, then sit at a stop light while the ICE runs at 3500 RPM to recharge the batteries?? No one ever talks about that little bugaboo. I drive a 100% electric car each and every day and I can tell you that the average American citizen is not going to embrace giving up their SUVs and such for small EV – we’re all to damn selfish.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:56 am)Cold weather?
30°F is not cold. In fact, that’s pretty warm by Minnesota standards.
It’s also warm by hybrid measure. Efficiency doesn’t take the heavy hit until the temperature drops much lower.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:58 am)One thing to consider is that this test was at 65 mph in a “mule”, not an actual Volt body. I would suspect that the smaller Volt body would have lower wind resistance than the mule, and therefore the actual Volt body would have gone more miles with the 60% charge. All they needed was 24 miles instead of 19 miles on the 60% charge, and they would have the 40 miles promised.
Yes, having the heater running would reduce the range. I haven’t heard how the heater is going to work in the Volt. My factory built 1998 Chevy S10-EV uses two heaters–above 40F it uses the air conditioner in reverse (as a heat pump), and it consumes about 1.5 KW while operating. Below 40F it switches to a kerosine/diesel fuel heater (I use about 5 gallons of kerosine in a Chicago winter).
If the Volt uses a heat pump like my S10-EV and it consumes the same power, then running 19 miles at 65 mph would take 18 minutes, and it would consume .45 KWH of battery power in that time. If the Volt’s battery has 10KWH of usable energy, the heater would have consumed 4.5% of the electric range during that 18 minutes, or about 2 miles. So the car would have gone 21 miles instead of 19 miles, had the heater not been running. (again, assuming the same heat pump as is in my vehicle)
Has anyone heard what the Volt is going to use for a heating system?
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:44 am)Hi Niel # 29,
The seats will be heated. The air conditioning will be the standard compressor type powered by electric motor.
______________
Hi stuey #22,
I also prefer RWD or 4WD with 7+ inches of ground clearance.
=D~
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:58 am)Mr.Lutz my reply on Chevy the Volt FireStorm Spark Plug rozwiazanie out and away the more straight and cheaper zero of the issue CO2
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:59 am)One more day to see the plan. Who do you think they will let drive the Volt? Are they going to do doughnuts in the parking lot?
I am sure they will charge the batteries!
Red HHR
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:00 am)hey dave, how come most american cars are fwd? do you guys like em? dont you like kicking it out sideways and drifting? why not a Rear Wheel Drive Volt, or ,Dave k how bout a 4wd Volt
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:03 am)anyone check out my #3 post in this forum, im thinking sbout trying someting like this on a smaller scale perhaps, any thoughts?
stuey
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:25 am)anyone eles found any home made “backyard” series hybrids, or electric conversions with range extenders?
curious – stuey
=D~
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:26 am)In fairness, it’s a prototype, so the production car’s stats may differ. Still a clear statement of it’s MPG using the mule would be interesting.
Also, I agree with the idea of showing the prototype to congress.
Finally, I wish GM would quit trying to greenwash their hybrid Escalante and its fat sister as green vehicles. They used up lots of resources to build, they take up too much room on the road, and they can badly damage reasonably-sized vehicles.
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:50 am)I assume the state of charge of a Volt’s battery will always be given in the practically usable 30-to-80% band.
FYI, batteries in laptops and cell phones report their charge in a ~20-90% band… when your laptop says it’s 1% or 100% charged, that’s not literally true.
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:58 am)Neil Young has been working on this kind of system for a while…
http://www.lincvolt.com/
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:02 am)Its a test bed/mule/prototype. Remember what the original volt looked like…. think about all the time any car manufacturer(gm is notorious) that put out a model, prototype only to have his HP numbers, body gizmo’s and gadgets end up on the cutting room floor and you end up with a watered down version of what was originally conceived.
The volt has been no different. First the body changes. now the less than stellar driving distances… We want real word Distances, that means with the AC/Heat running, or the windows down, Radio Playing, passenger and some gear. On real roads with real traffic not some test track were you can set the cruise and glide along.
I don’t know how many commutes are steady state 65 mph…I know mine isn’t. I go 18 miles and it takes me on average 30 minutes to work and 45 going home…
The question now, is if GM needs and gets the bailout, and they end up producing the volt, given such a questionable financial future, is it a car you’d still want to buy.
For just a moment, think about a buying a 40K car with all the electronic wizardry of the volt and then having NO WARRANTY NO DEALER SUPPORT…If GM goes under, thats what you’d end up with…
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:10 am)A business associate of mine has a Prius. He gets 50 mpg in summer driving, but only about 42 mpg in winter driving (in Maine).
Cars in general get lower mileage in the winter for a number of reasons (warming the car, longer periods before engine warms up, colder tires, etc.), however, one difference is that cold air is more dense. Aerodynamic drag is proportional to air density. So colder days result in less mileage.
With an EV, if a heating system is used, it will consume energy. The Volt is designed to consume 200 watt-hours per mile. For 40 miles, this equates to the 8 kWh of usable capacity in the battey pack. If one uses resistance heating, and needs 3 kW of power, this will consume 2 kWh over the 40 minutes it took to go 40 miles at 60 mph. This equates to 25% of your usable energy! (so range would be less than 40 miles).
If a more efficient heat pump system is used that only requires 1 kW, and at 65 mph the Volt requires a little more than 200 Wh/mile, lets say 220 Wh/mile, then power consumption at speed is 220*65 + 1000 = 15,300 watts or 15.3 kW. Since Bob had only 4.8 kWh in his battery pack (8*0.6), this energy would only last 0.3137 hours at speed.
This equates to 65*0.3137 or 20.4 miles.
Seems like pretty good performance to me.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:19 am)hi stuey #33,
The Cruze truck in E-REV 4WD will be the bomb.
Killacycle record run… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHtAkM3CYLA
=D~
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:35 am)#12, #18 Duane Hamblin,
I don’t think pure EVs will take off anytime soon.
First, pure EVs need a whole new infrastructure to deal with longer trips. The infrastructure of liquid fuel filling stations took around 50 years to fully build out. A fast charge electric filling station infrastructure will take a long, long time (if ever) to become ubiquitous.
Second, Ethanol is the perfect solution for longer range trips. Obama will mandate that all new cars are flex fuel by 2012. Liquid fuels have much better energy density than any battery, including EEStor. Liquid fuel filling stations exist everywhere today. It’s trivial to convert a gas station gilling pump to ethanol. Cellulosic ethanol is real, and cheap. Check out http://www.coskata.com/ . GM is a major investor in this company.
So there’s no real need for pure EVs. The combination of EREVs and ethanol can completely replace gasoline, and without any major infrastructure changes.
The only real issue is what to do about all the other oil we consume. Only 45% of U.S. oil consumption is gasoline. Diesel, jet fuel, home heating oil, industrial fuel oil, plastics, petro-chemicals, etc. make up the other 55% of our oil consumption.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:38 am)#17 Andy [#19 dorp] says “O.K. – Lutz said “about 19 silent miles” in his first comment, then when asked for clarification he said “it went over 20 miles”. So if it goes 20 miles on a 60% charge (the charge they left in the battery available for gas free travel) then on a 100% charge you would expect the remaining 40% to take them another 40/60 times 20 miles or another 13.32 miles? That gives a range of 33.32 miles, not 40. So what gives? What am I forgetting?”
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What you have seems right to me, but Lyle has given us an extremely helpful item of information in the speed. It was high “65 mph or greater” according to Mr Lutz.
What you don’t include is use of the fact taht the aero drag goes as a power of the velocity. So, if all electric range (AER) is 33 miles at 65-70 then the AER will be maybe 50 miles at a steady 50 mph and maybe 60 moles at a steady 40 mph. These are the commuter speeds that really count, for many many drivers using the car to go to work and come home on a daily basis. As there is always stop and go in real driving, the AER will be somewhat less, but the result is going to be at the level people are expecting, or maybe even more.
I’m very glad to hear these numbers, as I was worried that they would say “yes 40 miles range at 10 mph” or some kind of extreme like that. Accepting Lutz’s numbers as a reference, the Volt will be well over 40 miles AER for many of us, most of the time.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:46 am)Is it just me or has everyone forgot that the original estimate was 40+ miles on a full charge, and now GM is trying to sell a car that as barely getting 30 miiles on a full charge as a good news story. What I am hearing is continued excuses for missing the target on the vehicle: original price estimate adjusted from $24k to almost 40k, original design chages from awesome design to knock-off Prius, and finally, original full-charge mileage estimate adjusted from 40 miles to barely 30 miles. People, do the math. You are way better off buying a $19,000 hybrid that gets between 50 and 60 mpg, than 30 miles on a charge at $40,000. Maybe if the GM CEO were’nt flying everywhere on their private jets and spending their multi-million dollar salaries, they could afford a little more reaserch and development and possible produce a vehicle that does what they originally sole to the public. As with Stuey’s comments, why is it “some guy” can build a 75mpg hybrid in 1979, yet GM can’t even meet build an efficient electric car. Tesla Motors did!
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:47 am)Lyle — thanks for getting Mr Lutz to tell us the speed he was driving.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:48 am)I read that this car is going to cost $40K when it comes out! Not only did they change the design to make it mundane, but they are making it unaffordable too???!!! I’m pissed. I would have toyed with the idea of paying that much for the awesome looking concept car version, but not way in hell will I come close to $40K for the current version. Not in a million years. The price would have to come down by 25% before I’d consider buying it which means that unless they do something to make this car affordable, it will fail. At this point, I’d rather buy the hydrogen Honda. By the time this car comes out in late 2010, there will be a number of other green cars to choose from. GM had better lower the cost.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:49 am)#40 BillR Says: “If one uses resistance heating, and needs 3 kW of power, …
If a more efficient heat pump system is used that only requires 1 kW, …”
————————————————————————————-
GM has told gm-volt.com what type of heating will be used. I forget exactly what they said it would be, but it was something efficient – not simple resistance electric heating.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:49 am)You all seem to forget that the engine will always be the source of extra heat. Remember that the motor will be used to preheat the batteries, so any excess heat will be used to heat the cabin. In cold or very hot weather these cares will not be electric exclusive. Some gas will be used….
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:53 am)#46 Jill says “I read that this car is going to cost $40K when it comes out! Not only did they change the design to make it mundane, but they are making it unaffordable too???!!! I’m pissed. I would have toyed with the idea of paying that much for the awesome looking concept car version, but not way in hell will I come close to $40K for the current version. Not in a million years.”
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We don’t know the actual price. People have said $40K, people have said higher, and people have said much lower. Please be calm until there is more information.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:53 am)For the Volt’s suggested retail price of $40,000, I can buy almost two Toyota Prius and between the two cars my wife and I will get approximately the same combined mileage as the Volt. Plus I buy into Toyota dependability and a car company that will probably still be here in a couple of years…. something to think about.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:55 am)#46 Jill Says: “I read that this car is going to cost $40K when it comes out! Not only did they change the design to make it mundane, but they are making it unfordable too???!!! I’m pissed. ”
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GM’s CEO has said the Volt will be “mid-to-high 30s”, and there is a $7500 tax credit, so the Volt will cost around $30K after tax credit.
As for the design, the aerodynamics of the concept car was terrible. They said it actually did better in the wind tunnel backwards. So there was no way that design would actually reach 40 miles electric range.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:58 am)#27 Brian says in part,
One little tidbit – who is going to want to drive 42 miles, then sit at a stop light while the ICE runs at 3500 RPM to recharge the batteries?? No one ever talks about that little bugaboo.
———————-
Brian, I think the reason why no one wanted to discuss it is because the battery does not get recharged by the ICE.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:00 am)#50 ken Says: “For the Volt’s suggested retail price of $40,000, I can buy almost two Toyota Prius and between the two cars my wife and I will get approximately the same combined mileage as the Volt.”
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The Volt will cost around $30,000 after tax credits.
The Volt will average 311 MPG with the typical yearly driving pattern shown below:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
See here for details:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Plugin_mileage.xls
(this spreadsheet can be used to calculate the milage of any plugin)
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:02 am)I totally agree with Max.. The estimated mpg does not make sense???? And JUST HOW MANY REALLY NEED 4WD??? Spoiled and very selfish …… I have always bought US cars..but as of now the Toyota looks better?????? Bill
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:09 am)Dave,
You’re a dreamer…. right now the Volt hasn’t even got off the assembly line; so the current mileage it gets is zero. The Toyota gets a proven 50mpg. I need a car today and I currently drive 60-80 miles per day. I was first excited about the looks and initial tech. announced by GM, but judging by the changed styling (boring) and and current design difficulties, I’ve concluded this entire project is going nowhere fast.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:10 am)Wow. There are a lot of posters here upset about not getting 40mi in the cold at highway speeds.
As I recall, the 40mi range was quoted for the EPA City Test. If you look this up you’ll find that there are frequent stops, hard accelerations, and some relatively high top speeds included — all of which are highly inefficient activities. I don’t believe there was ever any promise of 40mi of range on the EPA highway test.
With that in mind, RB (Post #43) is absolutely right on. Lower speeds with smoother driving habits will yield longer AER — in some cases substantially longer. EV drivers have known this for the last century battery powered vehicles have been around. The same will happen with a standard gasoline vehicle — avoid highly inefficient driving and you get substantially better fuel economy.
Before bashing the vehicle too much we should really wait until some unbiased testing can be done on the production model. I know it is hard to sit on our laurels that long, but how else are we going to get an accurate picture? An unofficial test by Lutz with some numbers (promising or not) isn’t really the same as the standardized testing done by the EPA, nor is it the same as reports from actual owner experience. I still have high hopes for this car and while the test wasn’t in super low temps (yes, I’m in MN as well), the results are still promising. Especially as I don’t drive anywhere near as aggressively or fast as Mr. Lutz.
As for heat from the engine… yes, you can get heat from the engine when running but that isn’t the primary heating component of the vehicle. It will use resistive elements in the seats to help with perceived temperature (much more efficient as it uses very little current). I do expect that the vehicle will pre-heat the batteries if plugged in. This means that the “engine runs to heat the batteries when really cold” statement would only apply when not plugged in. For most people that would only be on one end of a commute. For some, it would almost never occur because they have the ability to plug in on both ends of the commute.
The Prius might net you better mileage (and my Insight certainly will) if the Volt can’t be used in an environment that leverages the AER. That isn’t what it was intended to compete in… but if you can leverage it you can use very little fuel indeed.
I have to agree that the projected price is a real downer, but to echo others here… it hasn’t been officially declared yet.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:13 am)If the Big 3 goes to Washington with this kind of almost this, almost that information Chapter 11 will be a sure thing. This whole thing is rediculous.This looks less than a High School Project as far as the results from a big investment and a lot of time.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:18 am)#50 ken says “For the Volt’s suggested retail price of $40,000….”
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As noted above, there is no suggested retail price as of now. Why not wait and see what it is before getting wound up about it?
It could be $40K, it could be higher, it could be lower. We just don’t know.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:19 am)#27 brian Says: “Not to be Mr Negative, but the Volt is going to fail for there are very few idiots among us that will plop down $40,000
…
then sit at a stop light while the ICE runs at 3500 RPM to recharge the batteries??
…
I drive a 100% electric car each and every day and I can tell you that the average American citizen is not going to embrace giving up their SUVs and such for small EV – we’re all to damn selfish.”
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1) the Volt will cost $30,000 after tax credits.
2) The Volt will not “sit at a stop light while the ICE run at 3500 RPM to recharge the batteries”. The Volt’s gas engine will switch to a lower RPM, or shut the engine off if the light is long enough. The Volt does not significantly charge the battery.
3) You say you drive a 100% electric car. What’s your other car?
4) It’s much easier to make an EREV SUV than a EV SUV.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:20 am)That’s a pretty good result. It seems GM is encountering success in the creation of this product. I’ll still not so pleased about the radical change in design from concept to production, but I am very happy to hear about these results. Go GM!
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:20 am)ken @ 50,
The Volt’s suggested retail price is not $40,000. The price hasn’t been set yet. Even if it ends up being $40,000, there will be as much as $7,500 in tax rebates from the government, so it might end up costing you $32,500. We can be fairly sure that a Prius with a few options is going to cost around $25,000 in 2010–that’s what it costs now. The Volt is almost certainly going to cost you more out of the box, but probably no where near twice as much as a Prius. And the Volt should cost significantly less to operate (i.e., it will use much less gasoline than a Prius).
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:22 am)I wonder how many Volt will be sacrificed during head on safety testing? Will the Volt insure as a “normal” 150HP sedan? Can a caveman get insurance for a Volt?
=D~
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:30 am)#55 ken Says: “I need a car today and I currently drive 60-80 miles per day. I was first excited about the looks and initial tech. announced by GM, but judging by the changed styling”
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If you drive 60-80 miles per day and can’t plug in at work, you’ll be better off with a Prius. Note that daily milage that high puts you in a minority of drivers. 80% of us drive less than 40 miles per day.
As for styling, I think most cars are ugly. The only cars that look good to me are not affordable or practical, so I just buy cars that fit my needs the best.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:30 am)stuey,
you should check out the
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/index.php
if you want to build your own. Im a member on that site Ihave a VW buggie Im going to convert.
Earl
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:31 am)I still do not see people plugging in their cars EVERY night, for the ride to/from work the next day. My gut feeling is that after the first electric bill, 75% are going to stop plugging in their cars, and simply going to run them on gas. In that world, the Volt is pretty good, but certainly NOT worth $40,000. While the Volt will look awesome on paper (still trying to trick the EPA MPG rating system), in the real world it will be way over-priced and mediocre. After a few years, the consumer will realize this and the Volt will tank, and GM will again be blaming everyone else but themselves.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:32 am)It is common knowledge that resistive electric heat is not economical. I could see it being used to heat the seats but not for anything else beyond that. I think GM will probably sell the Volt with electrically heated seats with options available depending on the location where you live. Also, those options needs to be designed with the ability to add or change easily after the car has been sold. A kerosene or LP heater could be used for extreme weather and that’s assuming the Volt’s battery works well in that kind of weather.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:32 am)42 Dave G:
Absolutely, the true question is whether we can get our national (or global) consumption of liquid fuels down to a point where Coskata type Ethanol can be built out and replace the current infrastructure.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:33 am)MDDave
I think it is a Tax Credit not a Rebate. They are totally different. The Rebate is taken from the purchase price at time of purchase. The Tax Credit is taken from your Taxable Income at the end of the tax year. You will pay full price at time of purchase. Plus Dealer prep.Transportation, Sales Tax and so on. Plus you still don’t know what the Guesstimated price will be.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:34 am)Car’s range is inadequate. Car’s projected price is outrageous.
The car would need to be $25k with a 100 mile range to make any difference.
This hype has resurfaced again to fuel sympathy for the Big 3′s quest for a bailout.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:36 am)This is great news! Some drivers may only have time to charge it 60% or may forget to plug it in. 19 miles is still a nice trip to and from the grocery store and for local errands. This car is going to be awesome for consumers. We need this car to get America on it’s feet. And hey…to the makers of the Volt, how about a van-like model of the Volt for us musicians! We’ll be able to tour the country with ease!
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:38 am)Interesting how many here on this thread are either
1- Newbies
2- Trolls.
Ken, Jill, Bill Dave, Max et al spouting things that have been dis abused, denied, and outright incorrect..
pleas research if you are a newbie.. if yo uare a troll please go away..
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:39 am)Corn ethanol in this country takes more energy (all told) to produce than then the usable energy it delivers. (We use more oil today than we would with no ethanol.)
The only plausible excuse for it is having an emergency fuel supply in the event of a world war that cuts off imported oil.
It’s true that we need to use existing assets if we are to improve things in the foreseeable future.
Some have pointed out that as we move out of the oil era our massive century long investment in high speed roads will have become largely a poor and unneeded investment of prime real estate and capital. They also point out that our massive neglect of our only really efficient means of transportation (railroads) has destroyed our best alternative.
If all this is true, maybe we should look at transportation differently. If we will someday have a glut of super-highways or highway right-of-ways, and if short-range electric cars are feasible as we have shown, then why not use them in combination?
Railroad systems were standardized in the 1800′s. Track width (rail spacing became a world-wide standard). For compatibility reasons these standards are with us today. As a result trains are very long and very “skinny” (much too skinny for best hauling efficiency and for some very important uses we may soon need.)
A proposal:
Suppose we make trains 30 feet wide. Suppose we convert some of our major thruways to rail systems. Suppose you can easily drive your electric car onto a train crossways (think of stations that look like a massive toll gate with dozens of parallel entrances). Suppose you can also easily drive your electric car off the train without turning it around? Suppose you can charge your electric car if needed while on the train. Suppose these trains can move far more cars faster per linear mile real estate than conventional thruways as we use them today? Suppose you can use them, get to an urban area 50 or 100 or 500 miles away, and return having typically driven only 20 miles. Suppose energy efficiency due to this approach is typical for trains per hauled ton – an order of magnitude better than the millions of vehicles acting alone? (check today’s RR efficiency per hauled ton-mile).
Suppose we open ourselves up to real change.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:47 am)I’ll keep it short:
If GM markets it as a 40 mile range, it should get 40 miles WORST CASE…at least at first. People are NOT going to understand why they only get 30 miles if the weather is cold and they are not on a city road.
I’m not saying this ‘current result’ is going to be the case for the production Volt, but 31 miles driving with the heater on at start of life is unacceptable, highway or not. Hopefully, on implimentation to its actual platfrom, the Volt can do 40 miles reliably in almost any situation.
I don’t want to only get 40 miles on a 67 degree day, with no a/c or heat and cruising around on a flat piece of landscape at 32 mph during the first year of the car’s life.
I don’t know what the expected variance between the Cruze mule and the Volt will be so I won’t draw any conclusions…yet.
/just saying
//fingers crossed
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:48 am)Ed #65:
I doubt that folks who purchase a Volt will have any problem at all with plugging her in at night. And the electricity cost is extremely small, especially so when compared to fossil fuel, at any expected price.
Yes, it will cost more, but everything new does. Look how many folks are spending beaucoup bucks on iPhones!
I think you are a tad pessimistic…and this is coming from a natural pessimist.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:52 am)I agree with # 7 — I bet he would get the money then?? To bad you people were not one year sooner with this Car !!! I feel it would have saved your bankruptcy problems – For sure …! I need my car now – Hurry up Please !!
Glenn
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:53 am)Bob McGovern, Using the term “rebate” was a bad choice on my part and not very clear. I believe it is a tax credit as you said. But my understanding is that it will reduce your tax, not your taxable income like a tax deduction would. So, you will be getting $5,000 or $7,500 or whatetever the credit ends up being deducted from the amount of income tax you owe. I’m not sure what happens if you pay less then the credit in taxes.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:54 am)The volt is neat, but will not change anything. Cost if a dealer even gets a Volt they will dealer mark up the thing so the car will cost way more than the sticker. The cost today is reported to be 40 to 45 grand. The cost in a few years and with the mark up..50++ maybe?? I dont see too many poeple spending 40, 45, 50, 50 + on a 4 door small car. There will be some, but these cars will be just like some other limited production cars, cool but you may only only see one here and there. This will not help GM. They have been messing with the Volt and the new Camaro for years. Why is that Chrysler can bring a car from the car shows to the show room in 2 to 3 years????The PT and the Callangher?? GM is so slow at moving the volt will be out , At a real price point, when the all others moved on to the next great tech.
As for the taxes, I may be off here but if the Goverment will let you write off another 7 grand on you taxes to offset the cost. You will not see a dollar for dollar return. Less tax yes, but 7 grand cash back ..NO. Maybe the fed will just give you the 7 grand back..LOL
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:55 am)Dave, You’re a dreamer…
_____________________________________
Unfortunately, it has become greenwashing.
A quick look at the spreadsheet reveals calculations that are only IDEAL condition, but with no disclaimer. And because it gets repeated so often, that just blatant misleading.
For crying out loud, provide the raw data to allow people to draw their own conclusions. That means mention of the effects of efficiency reducers, like winter temperatures and driving speed.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:56 am)No one has mentioned taking some of the heat from the batteries once they warm up. Is that an option?
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:57 am)Maybe in a couple years they’ll make a mid engine RWD EREV and use LiPo batteries in it.
They could badge it a 2012 Pontiac Fiero (just in case they have a rash of LiPo fires)
I’d love to convert my ’86 Fiero; but CNG makes more sense for me, as I commute 100 miles a day and would only be driving it in summer. That’s when gas is high and NG is generally low.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:58 am)What does the Volt consume in real highway trips of say 300 to 400 miles where the engine is on continuously? In other words what is its real MPG disregarding the first 40 mile running off a full charge? I would like to see them power the battery bank or electric motor with a 1.4 litre 3 cylinder turbo-diesel engine such as is available for the Vomlkswagen Polo (Europe only). The vehicle without any hybrid parts in it gets about 60 mpg.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:00 am)#54 W.G.PEARCE says in part,
And JUST HOW MANY REALLY NEED 4WD??? Spoiled and very selfish
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Since I live in New England, I would say that I NEED a 4WD when the roads are covered with snow and/or ice. I don’t currently own one though, and I certainly don’t consider myself spoiled or selfish. Is there any real reason why you are trying to insult people here?
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:03 am)#73 Statik says,
I’m not saying this ‘current result’ is going to be the case for the production Volt, but 31 miles driving with the heater on at start of life is unacceptable, highway or not. Hopefully, on implimentation to its actual platfrom, the Volt can do 40 miles reliably in almost any situation.
I don’t want to only get 40 miles on a 67 degree day, with no a/c or heat and cruising around on a flat piece of landscape at 32 mph during the first year of the car’s life.
————-
I couldn’t agree more. We’ll have to wait and see but I hope this isn’t another thing they are dumbing down.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:04 am)So the Volt has “up to a 40 AER” but we should expect to get around 32 miles per charge. That sounds great to me. If we assume the heater was running, and I doubt it, and we assume the energy draw was similar to the S-10 EV heat pump, i.e. 1.5 KW, then about .4 KWh of energy would have been used, leaving 4.4 KWh to drive the wheels.
That would work out to about 35 miles of AER with the imaginary heat pump off.
Bottom line, rather than use 8 of the 16 KWh, the SOC operating band should be expanded to 10 KWH, so more of us could expect “up to 40 miles AER.”
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:05 am)MDDave
I think if they used the term Tax Reduction it probably would be taken from your owed tax. Also if it were to be taken from your owed and you owed nothing or less than $7500 you would pay full price period.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:07 am)“I don’t want to only get 40 miles on a 67 degree day, with no a/c or heat and cruising around on a flat piece of landscape at 32 mph during the first year of the car’s life.”
How bad is “Worst case” though ? Hell, if you drive a Prius at 90mph it gets a whopping 19 mpg.
The 40 mile AER needs to represent a very real average. As with anything, YMMV.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:08 am)“For the Volt’s suggested retail price of $40,000, I can buy almost two Toyota Prius and between the two cars my wife and I will get approximately the same combined mileage as the Volt”
Yeah… right. You tell me where you can get a Prius for $20k. Right now, they are listed for $24k base price in my neck of the woods, but the dealers are regularly adding $3k. They don’t directly add this, they do so by NOT offering the same finance deals and fee waives that they would for a Camery.
Go away Toyota boy.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:09 am)Dave G @ 63 said: If you drive 60-80 miles per day and can’t plug in at work, you’ll be better off with a Prius.
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How do you figure that? Both the Prius and the Volt are supposed to get around 45-50 MPG, but the Volt will go the 1st 40 miles on electricity. Wouldn’t the Prius have to get in the 80 MPG range before it beats the Volt in the scenario you’ve layed out?
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:09 am)#81 Kent ask,
What does the Volt consume in real highway trips of say 300 to 400 miles where the engine is on continuously? In other words what is its real MPG disregarding the first 40 mile running off a full charge?
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Kent, I asked this many months ago. If I remember correctly, the MPG then was 50 in your scenario. But to be honest, I don’t think we really know for sure.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:11 am)“If GM markets it as a 40 mile range, it should get 40 miles WORST CASE…”
Yeah… They all should do that, but they don’t. By that logic, the Prius would be marketed at 32 MPG. Give me a break.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:14 am)Question from a non-engineer: Why does the ICE have to be 1.4L if its purpose is just to run the generator that charges the batteries? I have a 5KW generator in my tool shed that uses a 1-cylinder, 10 HP ICE. And I have a Prius with a 1.4L ICE, but that’s part of the drive train, not just there to charge the batteries. Like I say, I’m not an engineer, so there’s probably a simple answer.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:17 am)Lutz didn’t say anything about using the heater, and if I was doing the driving, I sure wouldn’t be burning up my range by turning on the heat at 30 degrees, it just isn’t that cold. Maybe I would have hit the seat heater but not the heat pump. And having Lutz mis-speak, ’19 miles all electric, no, it was more than 20! Thats the ticket,’ doesn’t engender a great deal of confidence in GM’s prowess or prospects.
That having been said, if the test was done at 70 mph, and if they really did use the heatpump and seat heaters, the range is pretty good. Over the past 6 months it seems like the people that crunched the numbers here were getting well thought out estimates of 40 miles on the city cycle and 32-35 on the highway cycle, with the heater taking off 6-10 miles off those numbers, (with more heater induced range loss on the city cycle). GM should have stated that the 40 mile aer was city cycle from the start so people wouldn’t be complaining about it now, but that would imply that they have a lick of common sense among them. I will leave that ambiguity intentionally.
Finally, to compare the Volt to the Prius or to the Insight is like comparing apples to oranges to grapefruit. They are all fruit but the latter two are much more closely related than the former. If you drive more than 40 miles a day, you aren’t an average driver and the Volt won’t fit your driving style as well as a Prius or an Insight. But if you are not in the top quintile of driving distance, it just may allow you to use less than a gallon a week. After the tax credit, a Volt will cost about $30,000-$32,500, which is about $5-7k more than a Prius. And you will be able to stop buying foreign oil almost entirely. With a little determination, and a nearby E85 gas pump, Chavez, King Abdullah and Putin will be looking elsewhere for their money. (Not to mention how much it will motivate a lot of us to put either photovoltaic cells or a wind generator on the roof of our home.)
EV’s and Hydrogen Fool Cells may be the bomb someday, maybe, but for the next 10-12 years, it will be EREV’s that mitigate our disastrous reliance on foreign oil.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:22 am)#90 Doug from Allentown says,
“If GM markets it as a 40 mile range, it should get 40 miles WORST CASE…”
Yeah… They all should do that, but they don’t. By that logic, the Prius would be marketed at 32 MPG. Give me a break.
———————
Hey Doug, what is wrong with being honest about the numbers?
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:22 am)The reason I won’t buy a Prius is that you have a 90HP (max) ICE most of the time. Sure, you can feather foot your car and get very good mpg. But why suffer while you drive? The Volt generator will run at about 2200 rpm on the 1.4 L recharge engine. You can just drive normally and get both good power and very good mpg. This is worth alittle more $ to most people. I will not buy a car with less than 130HP. My current truck is 4 cylinder 160 HP (24 mpg).
=D~
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:24 am)Yeah, but how much gas did it use?
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:26 am)My take on this is GM will try to make sure the Volt over performs in its early years so that it can perform at or close to its advertised range at the end of the 10 years/150,000 miles. Sounds reasonable to me, if they can do it and it does seem very possible they can do it.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:33 am)That’s one big difference between the Volt and the Prius or Insight. The Volt will accelerate like a real car; it won’t dog along like my old 81 Plymouth Horizon. That’s a selling point that has hardly been touched on. People will be really impressed on the test drives.
BTW, those talking about running the electric powertrain on a tiny engine… sorry but it just doesn’t work that way. Used as a range extender, the ICE needs to be large enough to power the car entirely on its own plus absorb the efficiency loss of the generator.
A 10 hp Briggs simply will not push a 3000 lb car down the road at 75mph. So in that scenario, after the batteries ran low the car would have to stop and run the (5kw? ) gen for a couple more hours before continuing down the road.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:37 am)#91 Ken
The reasonthey are using the 1.4 l has been covered here a while back.
THere are a couple reasons, noise, vibration and power.
Your garage generator runs high RPM noisy and shakes, but who cares..put that into a car that can cost 30-40k,and would you be happy?
Didn’t think so. at that price that baby had better not be noticed
Also scales of economy come into play..the 1.4 is a production engine, and fits the flexibility part of the platform.
Best ICE efficiency can also be selected depending on the conditions.
Search some of theolder threads, there is one on the 1.4l ICE that got flogged about 3-4 months ago if I remember..
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:47 am)Rashiid, I hear you. Honesty is a good thing.
Unfortunately, that is not how the ad world works. It is not as if GM is lying when they talk of a 40 mile range. I imagine for those of us that live in San Diego like climates, the range would be 40 miles. If you consider how much Americans drive and where they live, I bet the number is not far off.
Worst case scenario numbers don’t sell cars for Toyota, Honda, or anyone else for that matter. Why should GM use a different yard-stick than everyone else?
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:49 am)#91 Ken,
The 1.4L engine was chosen because it is a production engine, and it has good efficiency. Since it drives a generator, it will operate at the speed necessary to maintain the battery pack at its low (30%) SOC.
At lower speeds, the engine is most efficient, so a bigger engine at 1800 rpm is more efficient than a smaller engine at 3600 rpm. Go check out large engine generator sets from Waukesha, Fairbanks Morse, and others. They typically operate at 1800 or 900 rpm. Some low speed diesels operate at 450 rpm (60 Hz applications).
GM is just applying best practice in engine generators, yet still providing the 50+ kW this car will need to climb a 7% grade at 60 mph (let’s see the home built jobs mentioned earlier to that!).
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:52 am)Hey stuey,
You’re describing a primitive, cobbled together version hybrid along the same principles as the Volt. While impressive, I’m sure it wouldn’t meet current regulations for a new car. It won’t have near the performance of the Volt and an aircraft start-generator isn’t going to last 100K miles in this application.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:59 am)Boy, I can’t believe the automotive geniuses who have recently started posting on this site, and who have absolute knowledge on the Volt’s performance and final pricing.
I guess all these exclusive interviews with Bob Lutz and other GM executives are useless, as we now have some intellectual authority visiting this site.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:01 am)#86 DBCooper said, “How bad is “Worst case” though ? Hell, if you drive a Prius at 90mph it gets a whopping 19 mpg. The 40 mile AER needs to represent a very real average. As with anything, YMMV”
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#90 Doug from Allentown ,
Statik said, “If GM markets it as a 40 mile range, it should get 40 mileks WORST CASE…”
Yeah… They all should do that, but they don’t. By that logic, the Prius would be marketed at 32 MPG. Give me a break.
==============================
I’m not talking about 90 mph, I’m talking reasonable, lawful driving at posted rates.
Doug, the Prius doesn’t get 32 MPG, it gets EXACTLY the real world number it has listed. The EPA/GOV issued mileage estimate 48/45, blended 46MPG.
2008 real world returns, based on well over 100 vehicles reporting –>46.5MPG. It actually does a little better.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2008&make=Toyota&model=Prius&hiddenField=Findacar
As I said before, I’m not going to draw out a conculsion on what the Volt will actually do. Once we are get numbers from a ‘production-alike’ Volt, then we will be able to extrapolate all the ‘fancy math’
But I will say again the 40 mile AER is supposed to be END OF LIFE…I don’t see anyway to paint this 31 mile range, on a fresh out of the box mule, on the highway with the heat on as a good sign.
If we take it farther, and start to estimate how much battery degradation will take place over the expected life of the vehicle…what does that do to forward looking range expectations if thus is the jump off point?
/again, still to early to condemn the project by any stretch, but we have this information, so we have to look at it as objectively as possible
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:01 am)I agree with #92 ziv, it isn’t a fact that the heater was on. It was Lyle’s presumption, “…presumably heating the passenger cabin on a sub-freezing day” If you go back and look at the photo acompanying the 60%/19-mile article, only one person is wearing a winter coat. The rest are in sport coats. If I were to guess, I’d say Lutz’s hot air heated the cabin.
I hopefully await real numbers.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:05 am)It is interesting, but leaking this information without the details of the tests… (was it really 65mph 100% of time?).
As for Statik comments about getting 40 miles in the worse case condition… I understand your point about Joe the plumber won’t understand why he only gets 40 miles in city driving… City driving is a known preset condition as your worst case scenario is what? 40 miles in mountains with 2 feets of snow… You are asking something that even ICE car don’t have to tell you as the mpg are in optimal condition that most of us have a hard to reproduce in normal driving condition.
It doesn’t make sense and you know it.
What I would say is, if it was in fact 20 miles @ 65mph @ 60%, 100% of the 20 miles, then this is more then encouraging
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:07 am)Wow, that’s great news. My 27 year old EV would take an additional 1.2 kWh to do 20 miles. Progress!
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:09 am)“…the Prius doesn’t get 32 MPG, it gets EXACTLY the real world number it has listed”
Were you going uphill? Were you using the heater? What was the outdoor temperature? How fast was your average speed? How far did you drive?
It does not get EXACTLY the real world number. That is impossible. People in this post can’t even agree about factors that can lower and/or increase fuel economy. Can you imagine what happens when a bunch of lawyers get involved?
Is the Prius a remarkable feat of practical engineering? Of course it is. Does it get good fuel economy? Of course it does. Does it get EXACTLY 46 MPG? I don’t know. Fuel economy numbers have always been and will always be very easy to debate. They should be used as a guide. Add to this the fact that this is not even a proeuction car. Getting up in arms about whether or not they are being deceptive is premature at best.
The guy said he got 20 miles from a battery that was 60 percent charged. I know that the gas motor kicks in when the battery hits a certain level like 30 percent or so. Meaning they don’t let the battery totally discharge. I also know it was cold out. I don’t know if he was using the heater. I don’t know if the batteries discharge their energy in linear way. I don’t know any of this. Nor does anyone else for that matter.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:13 am)Kudos to Mother Earth News for reporting a 75 mpg, serial hybrid home-built with surplus AF parts and “lawnmower” engine generator. Beware of the opponents of genuinely effective plug in hybrid electric vehicles “killing” the technology again by price gouging, diversion of funds to other venues including their stupidly incurred debt and lies about batteries. Meanwhile, here is a hard fact: if Bob Lutz is telling the truth that the Volt went 20 miles on 4.8kWH then in the entire USA in the summer, a $5000, solar electric system can replace the 4.8kWH for at least the 25 year warranty of the solar modules. In other words, 20miles/day driving for $2.23/day on sunshine, worst case and I am including Alaska.
For Southern California, the number would be $0.50/20 miles.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:14 am)#105 franky B
Sorry, I guess I was vague there. By worst case, I meant worst case as contained within lawful driving speeds and reasonably expected weather conditions for most of the country (maybe like a range of 20 to 90 degrees)
/actually worst case was pretty bad wording….my apologies. I’ll amend that to ‘reasonably expected driving conditions’
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:21 am)#91 Ken Says: “Question from a non-engineer: Why does the ICE have to be 1.4L if its purpose is just to run the generator that charges the batteries? ”
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The Volt’s gas engine (ICE) mostly provides power directly to the electric motor. The ICE rarely charges the batteries, and never much above 30% charge.
When the Volt’s battery gets down to around 30% charge, the gas engine comes on just enough to maintain that 30% charge on the battery. This 30% charge level is called the customer depletion point (CDP).
I’ve drawn some pictures that hopefully explain this better:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Volt_Electrical_Block_Diagram.jpg
Having the gas engine charge the battery significantly would be bad for 2 reasons:
1) It would wear out the battery sooner;
2) It would be less efficient, since electrical->chemical->electrical conversions have efficiency losses.
I believe the current Prius has a 1.5L engine. The next gen Prius will have a 1.8L engine. It’s not so much the side of the engine but the engine tuning that makes it efficient. Normal gas engines use an Otto cycle cam tuning that scarifies efficiency for more peak power. Atkinson cycle engines sacrifice peak power for more efficiency. Since the Prius has a battery and electric motor for peak power to help the gas engine with peak power, the Prius can use Atkinson cycle.
Similarly the Volt’s gas engine generator electrical output is augmented by a large battery pack, so the Volt also uses Atkinson cycle. In other words, the Volt’s gas engine only provides average horsepower. Peak horsepower is provided by the electric motor, even after the gas engine turns on. That’s how you get 150 peak hp from a 75 hp gas engine.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:21 am)statik… It isn’t you. It is our society. We have become so transfixed with numbers that we thorw common sense out the window.
We have also gotten to the point where we want to legally interpret evey word ever uttered as some sort of legal contract. Can you imagine what lawyers would do with the terms “reasonably expected weather conditions” or “most of the country” from your post above?
The numbers reported by Lutz in his highway test imply to me that 40 miles on a charge is possible and maybe even plausible. That doesn’t mean that I should expect to get it under all conditions.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:32 am)#107 Doug
Ok, same dislaimer goes for you as I gave franky in #109. Obviously not every driver is going to get 46 mpg. But the average driver, who drives like a average person is going to get pretty close to that number.
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I don’t really want to split hairs all day long. My basic premise is that if GM markets it as 40 mile range, then the average consumer/driver, should get that 40 mile range 90% of the time. (Discounting snowstorms, mountain trips, etc.).
Nutshell:
If the Volt only can achieve a 40 mile range going 40MPH or less, that means it will very rarely ever achieve its stated range.
All I am looking for is a assurance that if I buy a car that is advertised as going ’40 miles electric’ (and I drive like a normal human being) that I can expect to achieve that number in the real world. If it can only average of 30 or 35 miles over its lifespan…advertise it as such. This is cutting edge stuff here and highly visable, it is better to overdeliver than to overpromise.
/thats all
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:36 am)“it is better to overdeliver than to overpromise”
On that, we can all agree.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:37 am)#97 DB Cooper Says: “That’s one big difference between the Volt and the Prius or Insight. The Volt will accelerate like a real car; it won’t dog along like my old 81 Plymouth Horizon.”
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I test drove the Prius. I was stopped at a red light. When I stepped on it, it came off the line nicely, then lagged as the engine turned on, then accelerated nicely again. Almost like a turbo lag except that it started fast, then lagged, then fast again. All in all, not bad.
I would have bought the Prius except for 2 things:
1) Our 75 pound dog wouldn’t fit in the back. The glass was too low.
2) My wife HATED the digital display. That was a deal breaker.
I hope the Volt has a software option for an analog speedometer…
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:37 am)That’s interesting Dave G.
Maybe it’s written somewhere, but does the ICE run at a constant RPM when it kicks in?
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:37 am)#99 Doug from Allentown says,
Worst case scenario numbers don’t sell cars for Toyota, Honda, or anyone else for that matter. Why should GM use a different yard-stick than everyone else?
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A good question. Here is my opinion. GM has shot themselves in the foot with past transgressions. Approximately 60% of new car buyers in America will not purchase an American made car. That is a huge number. Now imagine if GM brags about the EV range at BEST CASE scenario, and hardly anyone gets that. Now imagine that there are reporters with axes to grind against GM. The Volt will get slammed in the press in a big way.
GM has made complete junk (fact or perception. Either is bad) in the 1980s and 1990s.
The Volt has a chance (if GM gives it the chance) to turn things around by being honest about the car, and making the Volt a very reliable product.
If they try to pull the wool over peoples eyes, it won’t take customers long to search elsewhere for a car.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:39 am)I’m into Stuey’s 75 mpg car. I’m so disgustipated with the 3 major auto makers and their “spend and burn”/”bail me out” mentality that not only will I not buy a Volt, I’ll probably never buy American again. Screw these guys.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:40 am)I continue to be so extremely disappointed with the look of the VOLT. Lets face it, for all intents and purposes, this vehicle will be like the moon lander. We the people who are going to be the first to buy this vehicle get to pick a sunbird/base saturn/cheap ugly looking car meant for the lowest income car purchaser and we will have to pay the equivilant of a Cadillac CTS. Not long after the launch of this vehicle (if GM still exists at this point) the Cadillac CTS will be launched along with all of the other brands that we love and the VOLT will be the car that didn’t last longer then a year! Based on GM’s initial deception from the prototype and the way they have behaved during the economic crisis, they can’t be trusted…Sorry GM but I think the Japanese or a rich dynamic person is going to make the big bucks from the coming wave of riches that is on the horizion!
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:40 am)Mitch, You obviously don’t have a clue. I have been on this board from the beginning and the information I cite is fact.
-They did change the price, the design, and the mileage estimate (All Significantly).
-Tesla does make a superior electric vehicle that crushes the 60% /20 mile performance.
-And the diffence in price and eprformance does not out-weigh the value of the Honda or Prius. The $7500 tax credit is a one-time good deal that simply displaces GM’s debt on the shouldders of Uncle Sam. Moreover, all of you lemmings seem to forget that you will not only have to pay for gas, but will also have to pay for the electricity to charge your batteries. With the true expenses (Price, gas, electricity) lower price of the Prius (with a 45-50 mpg offset for fuel savings) the Volt driver will have to drive his car for upward of seven years to simply make-up the $15,000+ price differential.
Although the Volt started out as a great idea (as do many of GM’s ideas), It has also fallen victim (as with many other GM products) to the typical overpriced-cheaply manufactured mentality that has lined the pockets of the CEO’s and driven this iconic corporation into the ground. For evidence of this history, simply compare the dowward trend of the company value (beginning circa early 70′s) to the changes in the vehicles they produced. The quality/design down-turn is painfully obvious.
You can be a lemming or (GM Cheerleader) if you like, but I prefer to evaluate the facts and make educated decisions.
CORPORATE SPIN IS NO DIFFERENT THAN POLITICAL SPIN. ITS ALL LIES AND HALF TRUTHS.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:43 am)Before getting to worried about missing the range targets, per the article, it has a Cruze shell, not the more aerodynamic Volt shell. At 65 mph, the aerodynamics are going to matter.
The outside temperature is not relevant here (except that it increases drag.) The battery temperature is what’s important. And if the battery was in warm garage before hand, then it wouldn’t have suffered from the lower outside temperatures.
We do not know if the cabin was being heated during the drive. If you’re trying to post good number for the press, you’d bundle up and turn off the electric heat.
Good news to hear, but there is still a lot of play in the numbers to draw significant conclusions.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:44 am)#112 statik Says: “My basic premise is that if GM markets it as 40 mile range, then the average consumer/driver, should get that 40 mile range 90% of the time. (Discounting snowstorms, mountain trips, etc.).”
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IIRC, GM said they are targeting a little more than 40 miles of range to be sure that it gets at least 40 miles under most normal conditions, but they’ve also said heating and air conditioning will have an impact.
We’ll just have to see. I wouldn’t read too much into mule tests. Firmware will be tuned much better when the real Volts come along. I’ve heard the induction motor controller (a.k.a. inverter) firmware is really complex, so I’ll bet they’re still tuning it…
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:48 am)#114 Dave G
I test drove the Prius. I was stopped at a red light. When I stepped on it, it came off the line nicely, then lagged as the engine turned on, then accelerated nicely again. Almost like a turbo lag except that it started fast, then lagged, then fast again. All in all, not bad.
I would have bought the Prius except for 2 things:
1) Our 75 pound dog wouldn’t fit in the back. The glass was too low.
2) My wife HATED the digital display. That was a deal breaker.
I hope the Volt has a software option for an analog speedometer…
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Yeah, I was pretty much the same way on the current gen. The Prius seemed to run functionally well, (as well as I was expecting), but the car itself had too much ‘nerd’s shoe’ for me. Too pedestrian maybe? I don’t know.
The next gen seems to have improved the interior, but I’m still not digging the exterior look…I’ll make the final call at the Detroit auto show when I can see it in person (if all the auto manufacturers don’t back out by then, lol). I know I won’t be buying it for sure (as I have already booked a Insight).
However, my intense desire for a electric vehicle supercedes almost all other desires in a car. (other than 4 seats and being able to service it locally) So if Toyota says I can put my money down on a Prius with the ‘Plug-In’ option…I am totally there, without hesitation.
PS) I agree with your wife, I hate the digital display. I don’t mind all the fancy stuff, I actually like it…but let me keep the analog speedometer, the car guy in me hates digital
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:52 am)so when can I buy the volt again? is that before or after GM tanks?
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:53 am)#115 Rick Beddoe Says: “Maybe it’s written somewhere, but does the ICE run at a constant RPM when it kicks in?”
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There was an article about this here on gm-volt.com a couple of months ago. GM said that the Volt’s ICE will run at a few different constant RPMs. It’s not continuously variable. It’s more like small, medium, and large.
Within each constant RPM, the amount of fuel consumed varies dramatically depending on the load.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:55 am)I just took delivery on a new Smart Car 5 weeks ago and I love it. Well maybe it’s the 35 – 42 mpg I’ve been getting that I love. Wherever I go, people stop and ask me about the car. The question they ask the most is whether it’s electric or not. That tells me that I am not the only one waiting for an electric car, So come on VOLT. But GM is never going to get there if they charge 40K, tax credit or not. They seem to be counting on the feds to help them sell the car. I would like to ask Lutz, Wagner and the rest…do you want success with the Volt or do you just want to stay wealthy? In other words, if the CEO of Toyota makes 1 million in compensation including benefits and Toyota is profitable; and the CEO of GM makes 15.7 million and GM is losing money…don’t you think there is something wrong with that picture?
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:56 am)Dave G and Statik,
To each his own, I guess. I rode in a 2007 Prius and absolutely loved the digital display. But like yours, Dave, my wife would have hated it too.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:00 am)I would have bought the Prius except for 2 things:
114 Dave G –
“1) Our 75 pound dog wouldn’t fit in the back. The glass was too low.
2) My wife HATED the digital display. That was a deal breaker.
I hope the Volt has a software option for an analog speedometer…”
Ditto on the digital gages. I’m all for a nice subtle all-analog dash – they pulled that off beautifully in the last generation Buick Riv (my wintertime snow commuter up here in Mich).
I’d really like to see a 2 door 2 seater hardtop spinoff on the same platform in the future though (as a commuter car). Personally, my commute is much more than the 40 mile AER, but I have no use for three extra seats and two extra doors.
What matters to me are :
-Clean lines and comfortable interior
-Good fuel economy
-Average or better performance and feel
… but I’m kind of a dinosaur as far as my tastes
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:00 am)I’ll take a Volt with no heater and no air.
My deposit is ready.
My GM card points are available.
My mid-atlantic weather is Volt perfect for generation 1.
I’d like a trailer for supplemental batteries to go see MOM.
GM, call me, not Congress, I’m your customer.
If you promise me a Volt, I’ll buy a Malibu right now. How can you beat that?
Call me. You have my number.
Hardy VA.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:02 am)I want to buy an American car more now.
Because I know how it affects the economy and I know when I buy American cars it will increase my realistate value not the values in Japan.
Baill out the detroit guys. They are making great progress in cars and I am really excited about this new volt.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:02 am)#123 John Says: “so when can I buy the volt again? is that before or after GM tanks?”
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November 2010, if GM doesn’t tank.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:07 am)#72 jwcrim
I like your idea and proposal a lot. If I were secretary of transportation, or mayor of a large city with a few billion dollars laying around, I would definately look into this.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:13 am)#73 statik says “If GM markets it as a 40 mile range, it should get 40 miles WORST CASE…at least at first. ”
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That statement seems reasonable at first blush but it is just not sensible. AER is going to depend strongly on speed. There is no way around it.
So to say the rating should be for the worse case is to say the rating should be for 100 mph, or whatever maximum speed the car can sustain. That speed is far higher than most people will go most of the time, so the rating will be misleading because it will be far too pessimistic.
Instead of worse case, the rating needs to be for stated conditions. Most likely those will be the EPA City Cyle. If GM wants to go beyond that, the number should be for conditions that GM can describe in a sentence or two. Then we get numbers that are worth understanding.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:18 am)46 Ignorant Jill Says: “At this point, I’d rather buy the hydrogen Honda.”
You can’t buy it–only lease it at a major loss to Honda! That way, evil Honda can take them back and crush them all! Bwahahahaha! Who will kill the Hydrogen Car? Honda!
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:19 am)Does it get EXACTLY 46 MPG? I don’t know…
________________________________________
Real-World data here:
As of 108,715 miles, in Minnesota using only E10, my lifetime average is 47.9 MPG
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:22 am)IF YOU WANT GOOD MILEAGE BUY A EUROPEAN CAR!
http://cars.uk.msn.com/greenmotoring/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1379476
Most of the people want a good mileage. If so, ask your gvmnt to allow EU cars coming into the US. Wake up! You got a cheap truck or SUV or a car here for one reason, to BUY GAS, like you got a cheap or free cell phone to pay monthly fees.
ALL the CEOs should be FIRED from the big 3 WITHOUT a penny, in fact THEY NEED TO BE PROSECUTED for all the damage they caused for their company and for the country. They lied, failed, and proved that they are incapable of running a business!
Now they threw this bone – called Volt – in front of you so you can chew on it a little … the American ppl eat everything??
They say Abrakadabra… and you are amazed??
We should demand them to build cars like they do in EUROPE! PLUS they already have some decent cars. Ford actually makes much nicer “American” cars for the EU market NOT FOR AMERICANS…..
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:24 am)After all this time and all the effort Lyle has put into this site there are STILL people blogging how the ICE motor will “recharge” the Volt battery. The ICE motor will NOT recharge the battery. It will turn a generator that will supply electricity DIRECTLY to the electric motor. The remaining charge in the battery will augment the ICE engine. Just the opposite of today’s Prius and Civic Hybrid’s if you think about it.
Someone blogged about a 5hp lawnmower engine turning a generator for someone’s homemade Volt. Sorry, the math doesn’t work. 5hp is not enough power to turn a big enough generator for a practical car. 5hp is not enough to either power a car at practical speeds and range nor is it enough to recharge the batteries WHILE DRIVING. It CAN be used to recharge the batteries while the car is stationary but at 5hp you’re going to have a long and polluting charge cycle. Don’t believe these homebrew claims. If the claims were true Toyota would have done their Prius with a 5hp engine! Think about it.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:25 am)I wholeheartedly agree with #9, Jack C. I would LOVE to convert my old Pontiac Bonneville into a hybrid, or better yet, a plug-in hybrid. I’d be willing to pay $15,000 for the parts and labor combined (about 50% more than it costs to convert a Prius itno a plug-in).
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:26 am)Good tidbit of information. 30 – 80 percent battery charge operating range and 19 miles 60 percen at 30 degrees OAT. Batteries are highly sensitive to outside air temperature. No mention of speed battery power nor of the cruise speed operating on engine power. What is the CD and weight of the actual vehicle? Battery performance will make or break Volt.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:34 am)#72 jwcrim Says: “Corn ethanol in this country takes more energy (all told) to produce than then the usable energy it delivers. (We use more oil today than we would with no ethanol.)”
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Yes, this is true. Corn ethanol is bad.
But somehow people have leapt from this truth to the assumption that ALL ethanol is bad. That’s like saying: “Mud houses are bad, so let’s not use houses”.
Look at the ways coskata is making ethanol:
http://www.coskata.com/EthanolFeedstockPotential.asp
Their gasification process can replace 35% of the gasoline we use today from renewable sources for as little as $1 / gallon. GM is a major investor in this company.
The combination of extended range EVs and ethanol can completely replace gasoline, without any significant changes to our infrastructure.
Obama’s energy plan includes 2 major points:
• All new cars will be FlexFuel by 2012.
• 1 million plug-ins on the road by 2015.
This is the combination we need to start getting off of gasoline.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:38 am)Hey, DB Cooper 127, I’m all for analog gauges. Come on, GM. How about a switch to give us the option of digital or analog readout on your fancy info screens? Now THAT would be cool!
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:39 am)Side note:
Tomorrow is the release of auto sales numbers for the month of November from all of the major auto companies.
/should be fun
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:39 am)Subtlety is an art. And it’s something the ricer crowd will never understand. I see that as an opportunity lol.
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:49 am)Statik #112
Doug from Allentown #107
Rashiid #93
You’re actually making this more difficult than it needs to be. Of course the Volt will have a 40 mile range. The only question is: What is the driving style used?
Driving styles make all the difference in how much energy you use. For example, if you look at the Urban, Highway, or US 06 driving standards you find, when compared to data from actual US drivers, that very few drivers have the light foot required by Urban or Highway but that most drive less aggressively than US 06. This is the reason why EPA mileage estimates before the 2008 model year always overestimated the mileage — they used Urban and Highway and then adjusted. However, for the model year 2008 the tests changed, and current testing is much more accurate, as most drivers will attest. If you’re a 19 year old with a lot of testosterone in your system you can get less but most drivers will find it accurately reflects, or exceeds, their driving style.
The short answer to the question of what driving cycle is therefore straightforward: The Volt SHOULD have a 40 mile range using the driving styles for the standard EPA test cycles. Whether it does or not is the open question. We’ll have to wait and see. Since GM hasn’t defined what style it’s using when talking about a 40 mile range, we don’t know.
But we do have a very good hint. GM’s published work uses the style defined by the California Association of Governments study — which actually measured the driving style of real drivers. It defines a style for the median driver which is somewhere between Highway and US 06. This style is, I believe, slightly more aggressive than the style used in the current EPA tests. Since all of GM’s research for its hybrids has been built around this style, I’d expect the Volt to have a 40 mile range using it. And that should meet or exceed the current EPA standards. (And a longer range at beginning of life).
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:55 am)Forget the lawn mower engine as it had been documented that mowing your lawn once with a gasoline powered mower puts out more pollution than driving my 2008 Corvette all year.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:00 pm)Too many “experts” and too many opinions that do not account for anything. We are too far away from having real world numbers to work with to be overly concerned at this point. Real world Volts are supposed to be on the streets sometime in 2009, if I remember correctly. I suspect we will still be discussing this on the same level of expertise as we are at now when 2009 ends.
Some of the comments here today apparently have the intent of throwing cold water on the Volt. All I can say about that is that it will not work. No amount of cold water will ever put out the heat generated on this site for the Volt. The future has been glimpsed by most of us on this site and the few naysayers are only an small irritant.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:09 pm)#46 Jill Says: “At this point, I’d rather buy the hydrogen Honda.”
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Hydrogen is the biggest scam going. It’s the oil companies that are pushing hydrogen. Most hydrogen will be made from natural gas. Big oil knows that hydrogen will take a long time to catch on, if ever. They used the promise of fuel cells to kill the California Zero Emissions Mandate. Classic red herring. Ever dollar spent on hydrogen fuel cells is one less dollar for plug-in hybrids.
That’s why they them FOOL SELLS. They are meant to deceive us.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:11 pm)I hope that all of you had the happiest of Thanksgivings. It was certainly one of our best, as the family worked together to have a wonderful day in the face of some very serious challenges. It truly helped me to have hope for the future in these troubled times.
#32 Red HHR:
Yeah, I’m holding my breath to see the “plan”.
#141 Statik:
Fun? Interesting, maybe. Heartbreaking, probably. Fun? Alas, I can’t see it that way. Unfortunately, I have largely come around to your way of thinking. Back in a few months for another bite. The death of a thousand cuts.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:20 pm)#147 noel park
I hope that all of you had the happiest of Thanksgivings. It was certainly one of our best, as the family worked together to have a wonderful day in the face of some very serious challenges. It truly helped me to have hope for the future in these troubled times.
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Sounds like you had a excellent day…glad to hear that. Nothing better than having the family around, and having them all happy to be there.
For me American thanksgiving is like a imposed 24 hour coma. There is nothing good on TV, it is not the weekend so all my friends/family are working…but yet there is also no market action/CNBC to watch during the day.
/Ok, I watched football with some ‘power napping’ on the slide…so I guess it wasn’t all bad
(=
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:22 pm)#122 Statik
“However, my intense desire for a electric vehicle supercedes almost all other desires in a car. (other than 4 seats and being able to service it locally) So if Toyota says I can put my money down on a Prius with the ‘Plug-In’ option…I am totally there, without hesitation.”
A few things to keep in mind:
– I have and intense desire for an electric vehicle also.
– The Prius is not an “electric vehicle”. Even the PHEV version still runs with the gas engine coming on occasionally to keep the catalytic converter up to operating temp.
– Further, the heater (I’m assume you use it more than I, in Chicago) is designed like most cars, and gets its heat from waste energy running the engine. So the engine will cycle on and off to heat the cabin. Unfortunately for the heater, it is a very efficient engine, though slightly larger than today’s version.
– I believe Volts will appear in showrooms before PHEV Prii, but that’s just my opinion. Toyota is very cautious about putting out new technology.
– If it weren’t for the Volt, I would be ahead of you in line for a PHEV Prius.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:25 pm)This all kind of gets back to what is the MPG/MPC of the Volt. If they run the standard test for highway and city MPG on the volt as a loop after a full charge untill the engine kicks in, they can give us a value on Miles per charge. That way we should be able to say ok if I drive my prius like they do in the highway test I’ll get 48mpg or in the Volt I’ll get 36 miles on a charge. Seems like the way to go to me
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:35 pm)I agree. I’d like to see MPC rated per the MPG testing; then MPG rated separately starting at the point where the ICE kicks in for power.
Like 42 MPC, 48 MPG city / 37MPC, 43MPG highway… or whatever it actually comes out to.
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:35 pm)BillR@102 said:
“Boy, I can’t believe the automotive geniuses who have recently started posting on this site, and who have absolute knowledge on the Volt’s performance and final pricing.
I guess all these exclusive interviews with Bob Lutz and other GM executives are useless, as we now have some intellectual authority visiting this site.”
LOL, Amen! I think that Lyle should immediately convene VoltNation 2. He can skip the GM people and just have keynote speakers from this list. It seems that many are absolute cesspools of information that have heretofore gone unnoticed.
Be well,
Tag
“LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:41 pm)O.K. but how about the peripherals i.e. radio, AIR CONDITIONER-
Dec 1st, 2008 (12:55 pm)What i meant to ask – How does the electrical system manage peripheral electric devices and what is the effect on the 30 mile range? LIGHTS AND AIRCONDITIONER should draw significant amperage away from the battery. The result would be a reduction in range when operating in the “battery only” mode and, potentially, a significant decrease in overall mpg. Is Chevy ready to share details with us?
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:08 pm)#149 George K
#122 Statik
“However, my intense desire for a electric vehicle supercedes almost all other desires in a car. (other than 4 seats and being able to service it locally) So if Toyota says I can put my money down on a Prius with the ‘Plug-In’ option…I am totally there, without hesitation.”
A few things to keep in mind:
- I have and intense desire for an electric vehicle also.
- The Prius is not an “electric vehicle”. Even the PHEV version still runs with the gas engine coming on occasionally to keep the catalytic converter up to operating temp.
- Further, the heater (I’m assume you use it more than I, in Chicago) is designed like most cars, and gets its heat from waste energy running the engine. So the engine will cycle on and off to heat the cabin. Unfortunately for the heater, it is a very efficient engine, though slightly larger than today’s version.
- I believe Volts will appear in showrooms before PHEV Prii, but that’s just my opinion. Toyota is very cautious about putting out new technology.
- If it weren’t for the Volt, I would be ahead of you in line for a PHEV Prius.
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Ya, I know it isn’t a flawless EV by any stretch. It will kick on under hard acceleration or speeds over 62 (not 65, hehe), and their is some subsystems that will also need to be ICE powered when activated.
Right now though, I have little to no standards. Even when it comes to range, at best 11 miles in the Plug-In Prius. I will buy anything that comes out to fit my ’4 seat, serviced locally’ mantra.
/personally, if I had the choice today of anything promised to the market by 2010, I would take the i-Miev in a heartbeat over anything…strictly because it is a pure play. The Volt and the plug-in Chrysler van (because of its obviously functionality) would come in a dead heat for second.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:10 pm)#119 MAX
“They did change the price the design, and the mileage estimate (All Significantly)”
in order 1- Please provide link to VOLT price, I have seen estimates, guesstimates, and fabrications, quotes of maybe and possiblies, but NEVER a PRICE.
2- we knew the design was going to change…they said so at teh press release to build it.
3- the 40 mile estimate has always been the goal..from what and when was it it changed..I was at the auto show and they have always stated a 40 mile range.
“Tesla does make a superior electric vehicle that crushes the 60% /20 mile performance”
Pay $120,000 for a 2 seat, sports car, niche vehicle? and you are comparing it to a Chevy? you are comparing apples and hand grenades..like saying I wont buy a Z6 ‘vette at 80,000 because it no 250,000 lamborghini…
Lets face it..GM can (and did) build a long range, 2 seater super aerodynamic all electric 200 mile range car in the 1990′s…
“And the diffence in price and eprformance does not out-weigh the value of the Honda or Prius”
By your aurgument inthe previous quote..you should still be buying the Tesla because as you say the “Tesla does make a superior electric vehicle that crushes …” and the words Honda / Toyota can be inserted here.
Fluff and stuff…If you have been here so long, then you need to read the posts closer…
I never mind factual aurguments, links to proof (Like statik and I disagree with him often as well), but aurguments based on fluff, personal opinion (even based on personla facts of which I am guilty of as I own 3 GM products that have litterlay original EVERYTHING over 200,000 miles so I think since hte mid 1990, they majke excellent products..a personal “fact” if you will that I can back up) and then contradicting yourself is not a winning thing.
Do get po’d..I am not looking to make enemies, but I call em as I see em..if you have been here so long, it certainly did not sound like it..
Mitch
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:14 pm)Six of one or half a dozen of the other?
So the SoC is restricted between a 30% – 80% range, using half the available capacity to avoid battering the batteries and he reports that he started at 60% and you want clarification as to whether he was at 60% of the battery’s capable capacity, where 80% means it is fully charged or whether he meant that it was 60% charged from 30% capacity where 100% means it is fully charged at 80% capacity?
Well I have news for you, either way he was at 60% because at that point both measures mean the same because…
30% + 60% * (80% – 30%) = 60%
So you might as well not have asked the question at all…
Now if he had said 75%…
30% + 75% * (80% – 30%) = 67.5% != 75%
and the question would be meaningful.
Its like he said it was -40 degrees outside and you ask to clarify whether he means Fahrenheit or Celsius…
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:23 pm)A lot of folks here looking for “Real World” metrics on mpg.
Just get a 40 yr old exsmoker female on men-on-pause to drive it to work that’s about 15miles away. That’s a real world scenario.
My wife is available for rent to drive your car to test. If you can put up with her she’s $1000 both ways.
Now back to the Volt. Does anybody know what type of generator is used? I know you have all specified it’s 53Kw/h but who makes it and what are the specs? Is the running RPM speed of the ICE connected directly to the generator? Or does it go through some gear ratio/transmission to reduce rpm but increase torque?
Also, does anyone know how much energy is recaptured from the regenerative braking?
Just curious.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:26 pm)john #134 – “As of 108,715 miles, in Minnesota using only E10, my lifetime average is 47.9 MPG”
Which is 48.1 mpg using gas. No significant difference as there would be with E85, which would equate to a most impressive gas mileage of 63.9 mpg.
BillR #100 – Engine
You are of course absolutely right that we can rest assured that GM engineers can pick the right engine for the job. Some other factors: added vibrations from three stroke engines, more emissions from a larger engine (due to cycling on and off), and cost and weight. It’s a tricky question with many trade-offs.
Fiskar is buying GM engines, and one reason may be some free technical advice along the way.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:26 pm)As to comment 152,
Even the CEO of GM came out a couple of months ago (after Chevy smacked everyone across the face with the pathetic Pre-Release photos of the Volt) and ADMITTED that they sold the price short when they claimed that it would be approximately $24,000. Moreover, he STATED that due to pursuit of the 40 mile performance goal, the vehicle was slated for pricing between $35,000 and $40,000, or approximately $37,500. So, you can continue to be GM”s lemming and suck-down the Kool Aid, but I’m not buying it. The fact is, ever since they release the photos a huge number of “previously interested” customers went on a rant over the disappointing style changes, the exaggerated performance hype, and the ever-increasing price. This morning’s statement regarding Lutz’s excitement after driving the Volt was nothing more than a well written PR ploy to soft-soap the fact that the Volt is continuing to fail the exaggerated mileage estimates. I’ll bet the picture was even taken at a county club luncheon or some BS PR event, and the vehicle he is in is a rental that he drove from the hanger where his private jet is parked.
Wake-up and drink the coffee…not the kool aid.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:29 pm)Damn Tesla people….
Tesla is a niche hooptie, nice but niche, just as everyone else says it is. It’s not for the “Joe The Plumber” nor is it for the “State of CA Employee”.
I’m a “Joe the plumber butt” and can’t afford a Tesla. I want a Volt.
“Why’s the Rum gone?!”
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:32 pm)#155 statik – ” I would take the i-Miev in a heartbeat over anything…strictly because it is a pure play.”
It’s obviously too dark in Canada these days! Nah, you don’t really want an EV. I may end up with one, but their upsides are minimal and the downside obvious. Why makes you think EVs are better than E-REVs?
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:39 pm)#160 Max – “Moreover, he STATED that due to pursuit of the 40 mile performance goal, the vehicle was slated for pricing between $35,000 and $40,000, or approximately $37,500. So, you can continue to be GM”s lemming and suck-down the Kool Aid, but I’m not buying it.”
Certainly no one will force you to buy a Volt. As for the price, it’s not exactly unusual to have the price rise on an unproven technology like this. AFAIK it’s happened with every EV so far, including those in development. What’s very impressive is that so far the launch date for the Volt has not slipped. That is a minor miracle.
I think you are right about the price being in the mid-30s. Everyone keeps saying 30K – 40K, most recently the “Volt girl ” at the LA Auto Show. With the incentive that’s $28K – $30K. Assuming this is correct, seems like a steal.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:40 pm)When looking at Tesla Motors the important consideration is the technology. They have already come online that the will release a luxury coup in the 50k range and a Joe The Plumber version in the 30k. At 244 miles “per charge,” not 31 or 21, or whatever the Volt is now, I will wait for Tesla’s “Joe The Plumber” version instead of GM’s Joe-The SAP version.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:42 pm)#152 Tagamet:
Nice to see you here. Be well yourself!
I would add LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!, but I am waiting to see the “plan” tomorrow before I get too excited.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:43 pm)The 40 miles was always a best-case scenario. Hasn’t anyone else noticed that virtually every number GM gives is this way?
Price, engine size, tank size, equivalent household electricity use, production volume, looks, etc. Soon we will add in gas MPG and release date.
Anyone who is shocked when those numbers come in low hasn’t been paying any attention.
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:47 pm)@Max
Well, considering Tesla’s delivery schedule and the new “Joe” version for consumers is not even engineered yet, you’ll be waiting for quite some time.
Hope you can hold your breath for us all. I definitely can’t hold my breath for 3+ years…
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:51 pm)In other words: Although they jacked-up the price, failed on performance, and changed the vehicle to look like a Prius SS or R/T, it looks like GM will roll something out on time. WOO HOO! Let me pay 30-40k of my hard earned dollars for that.
Not So Much!
Dec 1st, 2008 (1:52 pm)DBCooper #97
“BTW, those talking about running the electric powertrain on a tiny engine… sorry but it just doesn’t work that way. Used as a range extender, the ICE needs to be large enough to power the car entirely on its own plus absorb the efficiency loss of the generator.”
I understand and agree with the point you are trying to make. A mass marketed car to be sold as a replacement for today’s ICE vehicles needs 50KW for acceptable operation on significant grades. The one aspect that I think needs clarification is that the in GM’s EREV concept the generator doesn’t need to supply ALL power once charge depleted mode is reached, rather it needs to be sized sufficiently to meet average power needs for all driving conditions desgined for. This means it must be capable of providing all of the energy consumed after range depleted mode is reached. The battery is still there and still provides peak power when needed as well as energy buffering when called for to maximize efficiency.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:07 pm)True. But that motor also needs to be sized such that it delivers that average power at its optimal fuel efficiency…
I’d assume they did a lot of testing and found the 1.4L powerplant to be worth its weight in efficiency and capability.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:08 pm)@ Capt Jack,
Thats all right, my 40mpg Honda Hybrid will do the job until then. Mean while, when you buy your Volt you will be too bust paying the price differential and any car that gets more mileage for less $$. If I buy a new Hybrid that is slated at 60 mpg for the whopping price tag of $18.9. How can the Volt even compete? By time you pay for you gas and charging, you will have to drive that car for approximately 7 years before you can eliminate the price differential and begin to experience any level of savings. Moreover, since it is a GM product, it won’t be worth driving at 7 years.
Don’t get me wrong, I used to be a huge Volt fan, and as with many others, i rushed to the auto shows, took my pictures, showed them to my friends, and did everything I could to promote the vehicle. I truely believed GM had turned the corner and was postured to rise from the flames and place the U.S. manufactures at the top of the heap! Unfortunately, they were obviously derailed along the way and –once again– ended up on top of the wrong heap….the garbage heap. Whats more, even with their failures in plain view, the are continuing to try and PR their way out of the mess they created! I got an idea, instead of considering a merger with Chrysler Plymouth (the blind leading the blind), how about some orininal thinking. I suggest they do some business with Tesla and see if they can create a 244 mile per charge (I’d even settle for 60) engine for the Volt. That would turn the company around.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:19 pm)@Max
I suggested GM use the same technology as these smaller “Retrofit” companies like…
Hybrid Technologies: http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/
Black Bay Technologies: http://www.blackbayev.com
LionEV: http://www.lionev.com/
All GM would have to do is ommit the ICE and all it’s ICE necessities ship the “Shell” to these folks and vioala. A 100% EV.
Basically that’s what BMW did for the Mini-E. Except they just bought the technology and products from AC Propulsion and battery from Tesla.
Easy right?
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:20 pm)If GM would buy back the NiMH patent from Chevron they could use 100% of the charge of the only proven successful EV battery. They sold the patent to prevent its EV use, and now they are the victim.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:24 pm)@Max :
won’t be driving after 7 years ??
My three GM cars still drive fine after 23 years, 22 years, and 14 years respectively. And those all came from the “we build crap” era…
I guess YMMV
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:24 pm)This should all be computer modeled based on field test results.
However promising the numbers appear, let’s remember “real” drivers flog the pony.
Just running around in mules is usually a lot of PR…
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:26 pm)Ditto re: Max #171, Bought the model, got the T-shirt, but now I’m re-thinking the whole thing!
When the VOLT hits up north, it will cost close to $50K CDN and make hybrids look so much better! Who’s going to pay double for the VOLT?
The new Honda Insight is looking better all the time!
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:29 pm)@DB Cooper
Hey, My Saturn SL2 is 11yrs old. Still runs like a mule. I was planning to convert it to 100% Electric but everyone says they don’t do auto trannies.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:30 pm)What continues to impress is the number of regular posts on these GM articles of minor substance. A well trained PR guy will tell you that the stats on 150 regular posts per article demonstrate a HUGE following for the GM Volt. This bodes extremely well for the sales of the car – indicating a back order situation for the first two model years.
More important is the enthusiasm for PHEVs and the growing can-do attitude for breaking our petroleum addiction. The Tesla, Volt, iMIEV, Th!nk, will lead the electrification of transportation. GM has done a fine job of stepping up to correct past wrongs and forge ahead with new, game changing technology.
Congratulations to all Volt supporters for getting onboard a winner so early. You ARE changing the world!
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:33 pm)Capt Jack;
Sounds like you need to do a tranny swap too
no sweat.
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:53 pm)#152 Tag
Thanks for the chuckle.
I was thinking the other day that its about time for another VoltNation event. We’ll have to start a petition to present to Lyle.
Take Care,
Bill R
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:54 pm)Please everyone- do your homework before posting!!!!! There are so many posts that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the Volt- not to mention fuel sources and grid power generation. If I see one more post about how the Volt is bad because it draws power from coal plants I am going to scream.
Btw- I agree with the Aussies that RWD is better from a driving standpoint, however from a mechanical simplicity and cost standpoint (and due to minor savings in space used and weight) FWD is superior. Most American cars used to be RWD, but almost all small cars and many larger ones are now FWD because from an engineering standpoint it just makes more sense, especially in a compact. For the Volt in its current configuration, FWD makes much more sense than RWD. Apologies to Australia, but GM is correct to design the car in a way that appeals to the 300 million Americans out there rather than the 20 million Aussies. Hopefully Aussies will like the American version too, because I doubt they will like the European version (if previous posts on Aussie car preferences are accurate).
Dec 1st, 2008 (2:57 pm)If the price of gasoline climbs again, we will probably see a lot of gas to electric conversions before enough factory made solutions are available to make a difference. What does it cost, on average, to convert a compact car or truck to electric?
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:00 pm)#181 ccombs
Better unlimber your lungs and get ready to scream then. One thing for sure is we will continue to have the same stupid questions asked and duplicate questions. That’s just human nature. Some of us are not up to speed on the Volt or many other topics related to electrics or hybrids. You will just have to do like the rest of us – grin and bear it.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:02 pm)For converting an existing vehicle, CNG is probably more cost effective. And the supply is mainly domestic. If we had more filling stations available (or the Phill units were cheaper) we may see a big push that way when gas hits $4-$5 a gallon again… unless the electrics are widely available by then.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:02 pm)For you Aussies, look for a Volt version to be put out by Holden. That is my guess. It will probably have specifics more to the likes of your countrymen than the likes in the U.S.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:06 pm)In Volt they should add capability to add additional batteries in the trunk. Of course you will buy them separately if you want.
You just have the plug there and buy them at any time you think you need them.
This way ppl who need extended range and don’t mind using some space of the trunk, can benefit. And GM can make some buck.. cause those packs probably will be more expensive than the one installed in the car ?!
Just a thought ..
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:11 pm)#184 DB Cooper
I don’t think CNG will ever make it because of the build out required to equip all the service stations with the natural gas storage. I think it may make it as a fuel for short haul trucks. Those trucks that go out in the morning and come back before needing refueling.
The electrics and plug-in hybrids will be out in force by 2012 whereas it would take 10 to 20 years to build the infrastructure for CNG around the country. Plus the cost would be extremely expensive. Most companies would not invest in something without certainty of reaping profits. And we can’t afford the taxpayer to finance it. Too much being financed now.
No, our best bet is electrics and plug-in hybrids and Volt like vehicles.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:23 pm)I can remember back in the mid-60′s a lot of people with pickup trucks converted them to use CNG. They had to put a good sized compressed gas tank in the front of the truck bed and therefore lost a good bit of the truck bed space. Mileage wasn’t that much different, but cost was considerably cheaper for the CNG. I just don’t see CNG as any better solution for the majority of us than is hydrogen. Both would require a very extensive build-out by the oil companies (who control the service station industry) and it would be very expensive. Plus, it would still lock us into the service station model that, must I say it again, is controlled by the oil companies. With Citgo, it is controlled by Hugo Chavez.
I would much rather visit the service station as little as possible with a plug-in hybrid or Volt type vehicle or none at all with an electric vehicle. Stay away from big oil as much as possible is my mantra. Not that I hate big oil, but it does mean that when I do visit a service station, I know that some or all of my money spent there is going to a foreign country that very likely is not a true friend of the U.S.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:23 pm)#186
THAT IS A GREAT IDEA!!! You could buy an additional battery say in steps up to an additional 20 miles. And that would [hopefully] still leave trunk room for a few bags or clubs.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:39 pm)D B Cooper the problem with natural gas powered cars how are the govts going to collect road tax if you can fill from home using a compressor ? I have gas wells where I am entiled to 300,000 CU FT free every year that I do not use since my house in not on the same property as the wells so I would like a natural gas powered car to somehow take advantage of this.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:42 pm)The LawnMower engine tied to an alternator trick works, but not enough. 5hp = 155amps at most. Look at sailboats and how they deep charge the batteries. We used an 18hp Diesel engine to run a 4500 watt generator (A/C power) which would run for 3hrs on 1gl of Fuel. It also ran a 110amp alternator for DC power as well and could be engaged to run the propeller to move the boat up to 8 knots, still running the generator and DC charge circuit.
Back in junior high I did a 3.5hp tied to an 80 amp alternator go-kart. It worked and was able to take 1 rider to 22mph (max for the single speed electric motor – Starter for a GM V8). Had 1 battery on-board to act as a capacitor but no potentiometer for speed variable. Just on/off. It wasn’t a class or school thing, it was a “I wanted a go-kart and we had a junk yard nearby kinda thing”.
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:54 pm)#162 DonC said,
#155 statik – ” I would take the i-Miev in a heartbeat over anything…strictly because it is a pure play.”
It’s obviously too dark in Canada these days! Nah, you don’t really want an EV. I may end up with one, but their upsides are minimal and the downside obvious. Why makes you think EVs are better than E-REVs?
—————————————————————-
Why are EVs better than E-REVS? I’ll give you my bullet points in the order of importance to me (on why I think pure EVs are better)
* they don’t pollute (especially in conjection with a solar array)
* they don’t use gas at all…and all the evils that go with that
* in the last year, I maybe have taken 3 trips greater than 100 miles, none of which were taken in a ‘mini-sedan’
* I have two other cars in my garage…soon to be 3 if I need to travel more than 100 miles
*identical price structures, so the pure EV is cheaper to operate, and less to repair (less moving parts)
* the future is EV, they will go farther for less…every year into the forseeable future, the more they are adopted…the faster the revolution
* 10 out of 10 points on the eco/ego-smug meter…can’t put a price on the ‘holier than thou’ mantra
Assuming I could get a Volt or a i-Miev at the same time in 2010, the bottom line to me is the Volt pollutes, uses gas and will be more expensive to buy, maintain and operate than the i-Miev…and I will still have a Insight in my garage if I plan on going over 100 miles.
Don’t get me wrong, the Volt is 10x better than anything I am driving now, and better than the Insight that I will get in 5?ish months, and I will buy the Volt in a heartbeat if I had the option…but it doesn’t stack up (at least in my mind) to a i-Miev or similar EV.
I’m sure other people have different criteria or personal situations that tip their scale to a E-REV…it just is not the case for me. I’m a eco-freak, off oil, off the grid, produce my own energy, self reliant kind of guy. (although I just moved..again, so I’m not currently ‘solar farming’…maybe by the spring, lol)
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:55 pm)Here is what GM needs to build and sell to the drag racers. i bet they would sell more to racers than Volts to the public. http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing Watch the whole video
Dec 1st, 2008 (3:56 pm)190 Clem :
Exactly. We do have an extensive natural gas infrastructure already; used to heat homes. All you need is a compressor unit to refill at home. Currently the ‘Phill’ unit is something like $7000 though. The actual vehicle conversion is pretty simple, and still allows the engine to be switched over to gasoline on the fly.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:15 pm)Amazing. Still cannot get a straight answer regarding the 1.4 liter on board engine. The FAQ on this website say one thing and folks posting here say the opposite.
GM claims that the engine is not going to drive the Volt after the 40 miles of electric power is used up. The engine will kick in and scream along to charge the battery pack, which will power the electric motor(s) which do actually propel the car.
So the question remains – after the initial 40 miles and the battery pack is low, the engine starts up and begins charging the battery pack – but what happens at a stoplight?? With a low battery the engine RPM will drop to 800 at stoplights but then will increase to 3500 RPM when the car is in motion? Or will the engine just scream along at 3500 RPM, which would be necessary to charge up the battery pack, regardless of the speed of the car?
Where is this information??? I surely would not blow $30-40k for a car which at a stoplight has an engine which howls at 3500 RPM in order to charge up the thing.
What is also interesting here is that so many people think that electric cars are going to fully replace the ICE driven car. The best our society can hope for is that the EV is utilized as a viable form of transport – esp in urban areas – to replace the ICE in certain applications.
We drive our 100% EV every day – to do daily things – but do also occasionally use our ICE for 300 mile highway trips.
The whole idea is to get as many people off of the oil driven ICE and into cleaner forms of transport.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:35 pm)#193 Clem Zahrobsky
Thanks for the great link. I did watch all of it and it was great. We need a whole passel of innovators like this.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:42 pm)Can I test one in Texas?
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:44 pm)I first chimed in at #50
I’m going to try and put an end to this silly argument about this GM product that currently makes no financial or ecological sense.
The current cost of a kilowatt hour hour in Massachusetts = $.50
The power consumption of the Volt for the first 30 miles= 5 kwh
Total cost to drive a Volt 30 miles= $2.50 (electricity is not free)
Today’s cost for a gallon of gas= $1.70
Yes, I do know what I’m talking about since my home and business are powered 100% by solar panels and I first considered the Volt because it would not cost me anything to power it. Again, let me remind all you dreamers…. electricity is not free, and it comes mostly from coal fired sources. My current set of wheels, a Toyota XB 5 spd gets a very real 32mpg for the first 32 miles at a current cost of $1.70 and I don’t have to worry about plugging it in,… or GM going out of business.
If the Big Three CEO Boneheads go to Washington on Tuesday and somehow get their bailout (corporate welfare), I for one, will never buy an American car again…. and over the years I’ve owned fifteen including a GM truck… which was broken down most of the time.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:49 pm)I am one of those who actually believe GM about their VOLT. I even bragged about it on my blog! Now, of course, I know it is all a joke. They have had an electric car (EV1) and have had this so-called electric car (Volt) in planning stages for YEARS!!!!! If Honda can go from drawing board to production with their electric car in 10 months, I know that if GM was serious the car would have been here by now. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Enough is enough, stop talking about this GM joke.
Dec 1st, 2008 (4:50 pm)#192 Statik
Maybe it goes without saying…but Range Anxiety is my issue with the EV’s. There’s just somedays where life happens and you can’t plan your route. Plus, I can’t own 2 vehicles. Too expensive.
Not that anyone cares, but I think a mid-range EV with a towed RE makes sense. You rarely need the RE but when you do, you rent a small trailer which contains the RE. In the Volt it’ll rarely be used anyway. Better usage of a capital asset (the engine). Low maintenance. If you ever need to keep driving and are getting to the end of your range, pull into a gas station and rent one. If you need to drive long distance, rent one. The RE can be powered by whatever tickles your fancy….maybe even a large flat solar panel for the carbon haters ;D Hmmm. Thinking about, I think there’s a chicken-egg problem. Well…it sounds cool.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:03 pm)#198 Ken
#199 Microdac
#200 Cautious Fan
Be realistic! I did not want to add you to these other two, Cautious Fan, but you are not being very realistic either. I can see your idea, I just don’t think it will happen. As for as the other two dunder heads, thanks, but we don’t need your naysaying. You can believe anything you want about GM and the Volt. Nothing can change your mind, I am sure.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:20 pm)@Clem Zahrobsky 193
I just watched that video. The dude knows what he’s doing but range was never mentioned. Cool though.
I guess if GM really wanted to sell a hot product they can sacrifice some range for “Off the line” blow out.
lol…..
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:22 pm)I believe the Volt will be a very good car that most consumers can’t afford. It would be cheaper to buy a $24K Prius and add a $10K lithium ion plug-in aftermarket battery pack. The base price should be no more than 34K. I would hate to see the Volt fail but with gas below $2.00 I can’t see normal people shelling out $40K+ for this car.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:31 pm)By the time the Volt is released for sale in 23 months, gasoline will probably be well over $3.00 per gallon. The Volt will sell regardless of the price of gas as well as the other electric and range extending vehicles that are due out in 2010 and 2011. I believe a significant portion of the U.S. population wants off petroleum. I know I do.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:32 pm)#198
I dont understand why some people are dump enough to say Gas $1.70 and $2.50 for electricity is high.
Let me say back : YOU dumps make oil price high, Say against any innovations and stick to old oil. When every body does that , you get a price of $5 or even high per gallon and you will cry saying GM did wrong. Look on co2 emissions.
Think BIG , If you dont do it you are going to be slaves of middleeast and your kids will ask you ” Why you did this to us”
I think you have dog (it also dies with you ) instead of a kid.
Electricty is not free but we can make it here .
Last day Opec said they need fair price as $80 ( they dont worry when its $147 and they dont say we need to cut the price ). Now they are cutting production to make oil price up.
Once Volt is on road, Oil will be cheap because US dont want Oil. But to say that we need Volts Out and running.
Forgot to add :
#3 : I loved that 1970 stuff. I think GM will confess for not looking on small innovations and from now , if they survive :- they will look on these kind of exp and take its advantage and bring it to mass ( even if the oil or hydro or any resource is cheap )
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:33 pm)ken #198 – 2 things:
1) you pay 50 cents for electricity in Massachusetts? damn that is expensive electricity! I’m in Australia and pay about $0.065 for off peak electricity (which is what I would use to power an electric car). When you factor in exchange rates, this would be closer to $0.0415 per KW. if I had to pay the amount you do, I’d have solar panels too!
Does the US differentiate between house electricity prices and business electricity prices?
2) if you have solar panels, wont an electric car be free for you to run?
Many overseas markets pay much more than US consumers do for petrol with less expensive electricity, so whilst you may not personally benefit, the world will. it has been pointed out many a time, this is just a first step. We still need a cleaner power grid, but even in its current state the grid proportionately pollutes less than the car.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:33 pm)#201 N Riley
Stop drinking the Kool-aid and quit taking the perscription meds!!!
Open your eyes to the facts before it’s too late and you and the others waste $33k or $40k. I was a GM cheerleader until the most recent tech facts and business plans came to light. I’d be first in line to buy a Volt if it made ecological and financial sense… Try to gather your thoughts and communicate an argument in favor of buying a Volt that makes sense instead of resorting to name-calling for a change.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:34 pm)A decision to buy a Prius or Honda Insight over a Volt will still be a good decision that will help reduce our dependence on foreign oil. Won’t be as good as a Volt or a fully electric vehicle, but a step in the right direction just the same. All positive steps.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:37 pm)@Pokey97988
Well…
That’s one of the reasons best to go electric.
The “Greenies” will be happy….
Gas prices are highly volatile, may be below $2 to day maybe over $3.50 tomorrow.
You won’t be funding the massive offshore City in Dubai their building.
We jus need to get people off the petrol from Opec. Going EV is the most direct and effective way.
But for now, Gas/Electric will hopefully bridge the gap so we can make the jump.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:38 pm)“About showing the Volt to Congress. I don’t know if they would understand it. It’s difficult for them to think being as they are all mentally challenged! However, give it a try. Nothing to lise… They hate Detroit and American cars anyway!”
Nothing to “lise”? Who’s the mentally challenged one?
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:40 pm)#207 Ken
Like I said – Your are entitled to your opinion. I purchase cars and trucks for the “long haul”. I typically keep a vehicle for about 12 to 15 years. An investment like the Volt will pay for itself long before it reaches its end of life. But, like I said, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. We just have a difference of opinion. You seem to have grudge against GM the way you strongly state your opinion.
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:43 pm)With the market obliteration today, gas prices fell an even greater amount.
$48.85 -$5.58. I don’t how that translates to the pump in US dollars per gallon, but I’d wager it is good for another 7-8% drop.
————————————-
Side note: This might sound evil, but if you think you might need your line of credit/credit cards to prop yourself up if things don’t improve, or get worse…you should probably think about drawing them down and putting it in the bank (or sock), like right now.
Those lines and credit card limits aren’t guaranteed, they aren’t always going to be there…and the American consumer is not ‘resilient’ in the face of bad economic conditions…they are addicted to spending. The banks have not just stopped lending money…now they are looking to close down the ‘other venues’ consumers may still have.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081201/bs_nm/us_finance_research_oppenheimer_4
It is a terrible thing to suggest to do…but don’t say you didn’t hear about it when you start getting your statements in the mail.
“Pulling credit when job losses are increasing by over 50 percent year-over-year in most key states is a dangerous and unprecedented combination, in our view,” banking analyst Meredith Whitney said.
/the ‘run’ is on
Dec 1st, 2008 (5:46 pm)Xiaowei1, They pay a high price for electricity in Mass. because their senator Ted Kennedy will not let them build wind farms because it will spoil his view of the ocean
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:03 pm)I would have though seeing a wind farm from afar would be a beautiful view -ahhh…. clean electricity!
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:08 pm)@statik 212
I’ll be honest, Cutting my credit cards from me would not be a BAD thing. Although we are not in deep CC debt, it has always worried me on how easy it is to use.
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:13 pm)#198 Ken
Your math is flawed because no one in the US pays $0.50 for electricity. Hawaii is the most expensive at $0.32 and the real cost in Massachusetts is $0.17. (Better check your power meter) The 5KW for 30 miles would cost $0.85.
Take a look at Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html
Mr.Bill
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:13 pm)#211 Riley
No grudge… just the facts. I also keep my cars for the long haul: my 11 year old Dodge mini van had 264,000 miles on it when I traded it in for $400 four months ago… we agree on something. My suggestion: do the math on the Volt before you buy. Don’t blindly go green and be taken advantage of.
#213 You’re 100% correct.
Dec 1st, 2008 (6:42 pm)#216 Bill
I just received my electric bill and it looks like my math needs correcting.
Current cost is $.21 per kilowatt hour and the Volt requires 5 kwh to go 19 miles, So hypothetically, the total cost to travel 30 miles in a Volt (which doesn’t currently exist) will be approximately $1.52. Local gas currently costs $1.70 per gallon to travel 32 miles in my car. My point however, is still valid since my Scion XB only cost $16,000 as compared to a Volt at somewhere between $32,000-$40,000, if indeed it’s ever built and delivered. The main point I was attempting to make is that electricity isn’t free and needs to be factored in… a much overlooked point in this discussion.
If you prefer to subsidize and reward the inefficiency at GM, by all means buy a Volt.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:02 pm)A $7500 tax credit will slam most buyers right up against the AMT. Very few people will be able to take full advantage of it.
As far as the charge goes, will the Volt charge to 100% actual capacity when plugged in or just 80%? Because 65% of 80% is the same as 52% of 100% – in other words, Mr. Lutz got 19 – 20 miles out of a half-charged battery, which would translate to close to 40 miles out of a completely charged battery.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:03 pm)http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/02/the-pikes-peak-question-chevy-volt-and-the-infinite-hill/
http://gm-volt.com/2008/11/21/bob-lutz-chevy-volt-update/
I highly recommended viewing the above links for those wishing to better understand GM’s choice of ICE for the generator, the intended usage of the generator in their EREV design, and the current state of this design. There have been many other discussions about this subject on this forum and with some simple searches you can find even more information. This does not mean that complete specs and opperating methods have been disclosed but there is plenty to clear up most misconceptions and show that GM has shared a LOT of information. We would all love to have all of the details and complete specs but they don’t exist yet and GM would be wise not to give all of that information just yet.
Bob Lutz’ reconfirm that they are on traget to achieve 40AER for the city cycle. In fact, they point to >40 if you make some relatively safe assumptions. This is a revolutionary car for mass production and reliability. There is nothing like it or close to it on the market today but others have been announced that can be considered rivals. Good luck find any serious details on any of those announced for mass production vehicles.
So, for those deriding GM and all they have done, you are in a lot of cases correct. They have earned a lot of abuse, but the Volt is the LAST thing you should be abusing them for. Though this project has not been perfect to this point, they have gotten it right for the most point and deserve credit and encouragement. For those that hate GM or don’t understand the benefits and importance to the Volt, what is your point? Is your time so valueless that you choose to waste it here?
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:07 pm)Ken #218,
Clearly buying the Volt to save money on gas may not be the point for everyone. It could be the people will buy the Volt for National Security, Climate control, hatred of the gas companies, etc.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:08 pm)John #219, As I understand it, the maximum charge is 80%
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:34 pm)A few points:
Again, no one in the USA pays $0.50 per kWh. In Oregon, with PGE, we pay $0.065. Thus, we pay about $65 for 950 kWh per month of typical household usage.
Charging our EV for the year will run us less than $50 for the 4500 miles we will have travelled by Dec 15th. The 5 series BMW we dumped in favour of the EV was burning through $2200 per year, so we’ve saved about $2150 in one year. By using the EV to do more of our everyday stuff, we thus use the ICE car (our 2nd car) less so that yearly fuel bill is lower as well.
Not all electricity is generated from coal. In states like Virginia, yes a fair amount is from coal. In Oregon, hydro, geothermal, wind, nat gas, and some coal is used. The EV charging stations recently installed in our city use only 100% renewable power sources. (hydro, geothermal and wind)
Besides, even if a the majority of electricity is generated from coal, it is still far easier to clean up one smoke stack from a coal plant than it is to clean up 500,000 tail pipes.
For urban areas, EV cars cannot be beat.
And don’t claim that if everyone switched tomorrow then we’d be building electricity producing plants all over – our current grid could charge up 80% of the USA LDVs (light duty vehicle) (which accounts for millions of us Johnny Qs) before one plant would need to be constructed. (source: Dept of Energy study, 2007)
EV cars will be a major part of our transportation arena in the near future. We can either embrace it or go kicking, but it’s coming.
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:41 pm)Not many people can afford to pay $40,000+ for this over glorified Golf cart. Most of the jobs left here involve flipping burgers at McDonald’s so it has to be priced for that income class!!! I can buy a 10 year old Toyota for $3,000 that gets 30 miles to a gallon and have a better deal for that $40,000 including gas for 200,000 miles and less for insurance to.
The bottom line is it is not cost effective!!!
Dec 1st, 2008 (7:48 pm)224 Justwatching.
Not too many regular people here say it is cost effective.
It depends on why a person wants to buy it.
BTW. I agree with you that it needs to be priced for the masses.
But I seriously doubt that will happen in the first few years of production.
At least not until the competition catches up and/or passes them out.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:01 pm)#216 Bill
Thank you for correcting Ken. You beat me to the punch.
With such as gross error on his behalf, stating that electricity is $0.50 per kWh, it makes you question everything else he says. I’m sure he thinks gasoline will be $1.70 per gallon forever.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:26 pm)#225 Rashiid Amul:
Thank you.
As has been discussed here many times, if “cost effectiveness” was the only reason to buy a car, Lexus, Infiniti, Accura, Merdedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Jaguar, Rolls Royce(!), Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, and many others would not exist.
They say that, in California, “you are what you drive”. There are a lot worse statements to make through one’s car than that one is interested the issues mentioned in your comment #221.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:40 pm)#198 ken Says: “The current cost of a kilowatt hour hour in Massachusetts = $.50″
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That 5 times the national average. Also, according to this:
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-reasons-for-use-and-cost-of-operation/
the average rate for Massachusetts is 11.68 cents per KWH.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:43 pm)#200 Cautious Fan Says: “Maybe it goes without saying…but Range Anxiety is my issue with the EV’s. There’s just somedays where life happens and you can’t plan your route. Plus, I can’t own 2 vehicles. Too expensive.”
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I’m with you. I would never buy a pure EV. EREVs and ethanol can replace all the gasoline we use today.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:47 pm)#219 John Says: “As far as the charge goes, will the Volt charge to 100% actual capacity when plugged in or just 80%?”
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The battery never goes above 80% or below 30% under normal conditions. That 30-80% swing yeilds 40 miles. More details here:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-details-and-clarifications/
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:54 pm)219 John A $7500 tax credit will slam most buyers right up against the AMT. Very few people will be able to take full advantage of it.
The tax credit is transferable to the following year if not all used.
Statik: I think the numbers will be gruesome.
PS. Great call on the put options.
Dec 1st, 2008 (8:56 pm)If this is a teaser, I really like it. I would like the VOLT to be able to do 600 miles to a tank of gas as originally noted. I don’t understand why there was a reduction from 600 to 400 miles per tank full. We may never know the way the economy is going.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:00 pm)DB Cooper Says:
December 1st, 2008 at 9:33 am
That’s one big difference between the Volt and the Prius or Insight. The Volt will accelerate like a real car; it won’t dog along like my old 81 Plymouth Horizon. That’s a selling point that has hardly been touched on. People will be really impressed on the test drives.
BTW, those talking about running the electric powertrain on a tiny engine… sorry but it just doesn’t work that way. Used as a range extender, the ICE needs to be large enough to power the car entirely on its own plus absorb the efficiency loss of the generator.
A 10 hp Briggs simply will not push a 3000 lb car down the road at 75mph. So in that scenario, after the batteries ran low the car would have to stop and run the (5kw? ) gen for a couple more hours before continuing down the road.
check out the link on my #3 post!
stuey
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:17 pm)#231 NZDavid
Statik: I think the numbers will be gruesome.
PS. Great call on the put options.
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Yeah, I’m afraid to even guesstimate the november auto sales. I honestly have no clue. My gut says overall numbers will be down 30ish% and Toyota should do a little better because of the ‘saved by zero’…maybe -19%ish.
No clue on GM specifically, before the ‘red tag’ thing I would have said down 50-60%…but there are some pretty steep discounts being taken. ‘Analysts’ consensus seems to be around -28%…but that seems way low…I want to say somewhere around -40%, but I’m really lost. Normally I can peg it within 4-5 points, but I’d say my margin of error is +/- 15%, which is huge. There has been a virtual lockdown of information on car sales from the domestic automakers this month. The real phenomena this month is the stumbling of international sales.
Side note: I really got lucky on the Nasdaq 100 (QQQQ) puts…just happened to get a position opened the day before one of the all time worsts days. I was hoping to pick up a 20-30% return over the month, not 60% in a day..but I’ll take it, lol.
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#215 CaptJackSparrow
I’ll be honest, Cutting my credit cards from me would not be a BAD thing. Although we are not in deep CC debt, it has always worried me on how easy it is to use.
———————-
For sure! I would never advocate maxing your lines for no reason, there are hardly ever a good reason to carry a balance on a line of credit or credit card…but if your job is ‘iffy’ and you don’t know how you would pay the bills if you lost it AND your credit, it would not necessarily be a bad thing to think about.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:37 pm)quote Todd Says:
December 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm
The LawnMower engine tied to an alternator trick works, but not enough. 5hp = 155amps at most. Look at sailboats and how they deep charge the batteries. We used an 18hp Diesel engine to run a 4500 watt generator (A/C power) which would run for 3hrs on 1gl of Fuel. It also ran a 110amp alternator for DC power as well and could be engaged to run the propeller to move the boat up to 8 knots, still running the generator and DC charge circuit.
Back in junior high I did a 3.5hp tied to an 80 amp alternator go-kart. It worked and was able to take 1 rider to 22mph (max for the single speed electric motor – Starter for a GM V8). Had 1 battery on-board to act as a capacitor but no potentiometer for speed variable. Just on/off. It wasn’t a class or school thing, it was a “I wanted a go-kart and we had a junk yard nearby kinda thing”.
thats beautifull, a home made series hybrid gocart-! your the man
stuey
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:41 pm)#226 Bill
#216 Bill R
I made the correction, our electricity cost is $.21 per kwh in Mass. which will climb just like the cost of gas. Your logic makes me laugh…. spend many thousands to save pennies. Just wait till those batteries need to be replaced… what’s that going to cost? Oh wait… they haven’t been invented yet.
My purpose in responding to this link is to hopefully cause the GM people to re-evaluate the project and bring it to market in a manner which makes economic and ecological sense to the end user.
You fellows should beam back up to the Starship Enterprise to further discuss your purchase of a new Volt in it’s present hypothetical, futuristic form. Back on Planet Earth, I need a car that makes sense today.
Dec 1st, 2008 (9:45 pm)i wanna make some sort off go cart or small car with an electric motor and a very small efficient generator to give me the power, like the bloke above me`s ref #235:”school co-cart” if some guy from 1979 made a 75mpg elec series hybrid, well i can make a way better one in 2008
any ideas?
motor?
wanna do it on the cheap (i work in a scrap steel yard and get a/c three phase motors all the time, these any good, or does it need to be DC?)
any ideas welcome
stuey
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:09 pm)I think most of the first generation buyers are going to be thinking along these lines:
“I’ll buy it no matter what the financial bottom line might be. It’s my green halo, not my practical transportation.”
For practical basic transport, I drive a ’94 Geo Prism. For practical heavy hauling, I drive an ’06 diesel Silverado 2500. Both vehicles have a place in the world and neither can replace the other. The Volt will be no different. It’s got a place in the world, but it’s not the perfect answer to everybody’s needs.
Hopefully my Geo will last a few more years until I can start parking my green halo beside my 8,000 lb pickup truck. My halo may have any number of company names on the trunk lid though. If GM can’t pull through their current problems, I’ll have to… Well, let’s see if they can pull through first!
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:21 pm)Well stated #238 – the right car for the right job. Unfortunately, we live in a society where most think that having a Hummer to commute to work and to drive the 95 lb wife and the 2.3 kids to the market is fine and dandy. (Don’t mention that 95% of the Hummers and other SUVs have never seen real dirt.)
I love the doofs that call the Volt or any other EV a glorified golf cart.
Using the same “doofus logic” – Hummers and Escalades are glorified golf carts too because just like my Dad’s golf cart, they have four wheels, a steering wheel, seats, a CD player, and a gasoline engine. In fact, I’ve even seen golf carts that really do look like Hummers.
Folks, cars are cars and golf carts are golf carts and neither is a glorified copy of the other.
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:23 pm)I wonder how the MINI will fair. 150 miles per charge? 2.5hrs to charge? 0 – 62MPH in 8.5 seconds?
I understand it’s only a 2-seating, but when you’re going to work, you’re typically only 1 person
Although I’m too manly to buy a MINI (lol), I’m still very impressed by the performance numbers provided.
http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/LA2008/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=13432827
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:28 pm)my electricity in wenatchee washington is $0.02 a kilowatt,( generated buy hydroelectric power plants) i coud drive this car for as close to free as you can get
Dec 1st, 2008 (10:29 pm)STOP BIG GOVERNMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:43 pm)I’m not a specialist nor a scientific but I’m asking myself:
Since no motor is 100% efficient, thermal lost occurred, heat must be exhausted. The electronic drive (btw, is it a regen AC or DC?) also needs to be cooled to prevent overheating.
The batteries enclosure package needs to be under climate control to maximise its efficiency independently of the outside temperature variation (as well inside the habitacle for its driver/passenger(s)
Is a sophisticated liquid cooling/heating system (electric drive pump motor for sure) to be the most efficient way to extend its overall mileage? Or all benefit may be lost due to the weight add-on?
Dec 1st, 2008 (11:57 pm)#192 statik – On the benefits of an EV versus an E-REV
They are simpler. And they do have the benefits you’ve outlined. And if you can have a car for every occasion they may make sense.
But the issue, as Cautious Fan has pointed out, is that at the moment EVs are extremely range limited. A hundred mile range sounds great, but go up a couple of hills, accelerate briskly from a couple of stops, and the needle goes down in a hurry. As a reasonably aggressive driver who didn’t like the Prius, I have trouble seeing you enjoying an EV. Plus you’ll need to cut the stated range of the i-Miev but quite a bit, maybe even half, to account for the different driving styles used for testing in Japan and how we actually drive in North America.
Even a range which sounds great can be not so great when you’re actually limited by it. The Tesla has an impressive sounding range, but here’s a quote from an environmental type on his Tesla test drive actually worked out: “I recently had the opportunity to test drive the Tesla Roadster and towards the end of that seeing, the gauge getting down into the lower regions and starting to wonder if we were actually going to be able to make back to our starting point before running out of juice.”
The reason an E-REV is so terrific is that it has almost all the benefits of an EV and none of the disadvantages. Most of the time you will never have the ICE kick on, and when it does, you’d probably be cold starting some other car anyway. In a similar vein, the Insight seems like the clunker to me.
If you look at the properties of the Insight, the Volt, and the i-Miev, and how they compare to your stated goals, you’ll understand why I’d say that. First there’s emissions. As you point out, the EV has no emissions. It’s the winner. But by how much? First let’s look at the Volt and the Insight, keeping in mind that initial starts account for 99.999% of all emissions. The Volt will have about one-fifth of the initial starts of a conventional engine due to the fact that for most times the ICE will not kick in. The Insight? Well, because the battery assists the ICE, the Insight will have the same number of initial starts as a conventional ICE car. IOW, contrary to popular belief, there is no green advantage to be gained by driving an Insight, and if you’re concerned about emissions you might as well drive your current car and save the planet from the pollution inherent in making another car. So with the Volt you get 80% of the benefit of the i-Miev while the Insight doesn’t provide a benefit.
OK. so let’s look at gas consumption. The i-Miev won’t use any. Hard to beat that. So let’s look at the Volt and the Insight. The Volt will use about 17% (savings of 83%). The Insight will use 77% (a savings of 13%). Basically the Insight offers marginal savings. Once again, the Volt gives you about 80% of the benefit of the i-Miev, though this time the Insight does deliver something.
When I look at these numbers my conclusion is that the Volt is the perfect example of the 80/20 rule. You’re getting about 80% of the benefit of an EV at a relatively low cost and without the drawbacks of an EV. (I won’t go into the repair costs because they’re not going to amount to much — ICE cars have gotten so good even the difference between an EV and an ICE will not be that great).
Based on your criteria I can see why you’d want an i-Miev, at least until you drive one, but the Insight just seems like a waste. And if your money is burning a hole in your pocket and you have to buy a car, the CR-Z seems more interesting. But hey, it’s your car, and technology can take some time to reach the far north! LOL
Dec 2nd, 2008 (12:02 am)GO GM
GO VOLT
sorry simple
but there are too many weird comments on there.
Lawn mower engines are super pollution.. In MD they are going to outlaw law mower use at certain times.
Also 1969 jet engine starter engine. This is something from popular science….
Let see this vehicle in real world conditions last more than a year and quality control.
Starter motors are not designed to be operated on a high hour basis.
I am a satellite engineer and when I see people post things with law mower engines the only think I can deduct is they are Toyota PR goons trying to belittle the volt progress in order to get some cheap shots.
Like the new Toyota Tundra site I was on today. If you select 2009 Ford F150 it moves you back automatically to the 2008 model but they do it in a sneaky way. They let you select the 2008 model but then at the top it flips right back to 2008.
Toyota doesn’t want to admit its Tundra gets 3 MPG worse millage than the new F150.
So again I think Toyota is the evil one here again. I simply will not buy a foreign made car, especially Toyota.
I am tried of deceptive advertising its worse that Subliminal advertising in the 1960s Toyota PR people all over the web making false comments and trying to sway public opinion.
I appreciate GM-Volt because its a unbiased source.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (12:20 am)Greg
“Starter motors are not designed to be operated on a high hour basis.”
Try a rewired C47 generator for a motor. They work just fine.
Take Care
Arch
Dec 2nd, 2008 (1:09 am)Lets see, we’ve tried horses, steam, battery, gas, now lets try springs, rubber bands, oh I know lets go back to walking
Dec 2nd, 2008 (2:56 am)Wow! With the great response to simple articles like this, VOLT cannot go wrong! This thing is an absolute home run. 40 mile AER = 85% all US commuter miles. With the tax credit incentives the total cash cost will be under $30k and there is a huge waiting list.
There is almost no downside to this project. If you build it they will come. And GM has just started to assemble the line.
NICE work GM-Volt website and Lyle. Volt Nation grows stronger every day! Fantastic.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (3:54 am)Two little software tweaks needed:
1. Enable the car to be heated on cold days using the internal combustion engine, regardless of battery status. Internal Combustion Engines are first and foremost heaters (75%), and secondly engines (25%). We don’t heat our homes with electricity (in cold climates), so why our cars?
2. Allow the ICE to charge the battery whilst the car is parked and locked.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (7:05 am)#240 Zach says,
I wonder how the MINI will fair. 150 miles per charge? 2.5hrs to charge? 0 – 62MPH in 8.5 seconds?
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This car would work for me.
101 mile daily commute plus a little extra for errands.
My wife could keep the gas car.
I wonder how much for the MiniEV?
Dec 2nd, 2008 (8:51 am)#249 Alex, Tunbridge Wells Says: “Two little software tweaks needed:
1. Enable the car to be heated on cold days using the internal combustion engine, regardless of battery status. …
2. Allow the ICE to charge the battery whilst the car is parked and locked.”
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Why? Both of these waste gas. Electric heating is much faster. Electricity costs much less than gas. The whole idea of the Volt is to use as little gas as possible. Also, increasing the number of charge/discharge cycles on the battery will wear it out faster.
Once the gas engine turns on, heat from the engine will be used to heat the car, but until then, electric heat will be used.
Also, when it’s really cold outside, like -30°F or below, then the gas engine will turn on immediately for a few minutes to warm the battery.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:03 am)#244 DonC (On the benefits of an EV versus an E-REV),
Yes, well put. The EREV is the clear winner.
The only nit I have is to point out that EVs do have emmissions. With today’s mix of fuels to make electricity, EV emmissions are 40% less than a gas engine car, and that will improve over time. If you use solar panels, then the high amount of energy required to prodce the solar panels must be taken into account. So EV emmissions will never be zero, but they are already a lot less, and will get better.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:07 am)KEN
One BIG difference that is the main reason I want a volt…It reduces foreign dependancy…your way still ponies up to your dealer for a fix…
LIke Huey Lewis said “I want a new drug”
I am looking a a NG micro CHP for my home, I am adding solar water heat and photovoltic cells..I have a NG well on my property…I will be COMPLETELY off grid except to send them power (but I can tap in a pinch)..I am designing to recharge my volt when I get it for NOTHING..I am DIYing it all..I bid on a commercial property destruction for the solar, got it DIRT CHEAP including deep storage batteries..total project not counting my time and labour..about 6K
Cost to fill may be close, but you will use 5 gallons a week, lets say there are 20 million drivers..if we use locally generated electricity, we save 100 MILLION gallons a WEEK…
IN addition, we improve infrastructure, creating jobs, a better grid (think east coast 2003)
I am not a tree hugger..I am going off grid with alternative power because I am a CHEAP SOB.. and the volt while possibly expensive (we do not actually know) will be no cost other than maintenance…I would buy a fuel efficient car if I had an oil well and a refinery on my land..but I dont..
Its about freedom to me.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:14 am)Another point about EREV maintenance.
The gas engine has a lot less mechanical stuff hanging off of it. The water pump is electric. The power steering is electric. The air-conditioning is electric. The generator (alternator) is connected directly to the drive shaft.
Does the gas engine in the Volt have a belt?
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:31 am)Also, when it’s really cold outside, like -30°F or below, then the gas engine will turn on immediately for a few minutes to warm the battery.
________________________________
That’s a great example of misleading. Using such an absurd value gives people the impression that other temperatures will not require the engine to run. But in reality, that’s not the case.
In other words, to be constructive, you must indicate the cutoff temperature. Most likely it will be around 25°F, which is quite normal for most of us in the night throughout the winter.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:37 am)#243 an_outsider Says: “I’m not a specialist nor a scientific but I’m asking myself:
Since no motor is 100% efficient, thermal lost occurred, heat must be exhausted. The electronic drive (btw, is it a regen AC or DC?) also needs to be cooled to prevent overheating.
The batteries enclosure package needs to be under climate control to maximize its efficiency independently of the outside temperature variation (as well inside the habitable for its driver/passenger(s)
Is a sophisticated liquid cooling/heating system (electric drive pump motor for sure) to be the most efficient way to extend its overall mileage? Or all benefit may be lost due to the weight add-on?”
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Lots of questions there. I’ll try to answer them.
The AC induction electric motor is around 95% efficient, so air cooling is sufficient.
The battery is liquid cooled with a circulating pump. The pump is electrically driven. The battery liquid cooling system is separate from the ICE liquid cooling system, which also has an electric pump. More pump details here:
http://gm-volt.com/2008/10/20/contract-awarded-for-the-chevy-volts-water-pump-system/
The battery pack also has an electric heater for very cold days, like -30°F or below. At these cold temperatures, the battery heater will be powered by the gas engine for the first few minutes of driving until the battery warms up, or by the plug when charging. In either case, the warming of the battery should be minimal since the battery naturally gives off some heat when it charges/discharges. In other words, the heater mostly just gets the battery up to operating temp, and then shuts off.
The passenger compartment heating is a combination of electric heat and traditional heat from the ICE when it is running. The air-conditioning system is all electric.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:43 am)#255 john1701a Says: “In other words, to be constructive, you must indicate the cutoff temperature. Most likely it will be around 25°F, which is quite normal for most of us in the night throughout the winter.”
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From what GM has said, it appears the cutoff temperature will be around -30°F. The battery seems to work down to that, and it warms itself naturally as it discharges, so outside heating doesn’t seem to be necessary above -30°F.
Of course, we’ll only know for sure when the Volt starts selling.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (9:53 am)#253
Mitch,
It’s a pleasure to meet another cheap SOB like myself. I’ve been 100% solar for a year now in my home and commercial office building. The lower costs free me up to do nonsense stuff like this instead of dreaming up new cheaper ways to get to work in a car which doesn’t yet exist like the tree huggers and moon-beams do.
I’ve been following this Volt project for a couple of years now, and up until a month ago was truly interested in buying one. Right up until GM announced the target price of $32k and congress passed the $7500 tax credit…. I said to my wife, watch as GM increases the price of the Volt by $7,500 to off-set their higher union costs. That’s just what happened… and I’ve lost interest fast. Good luck on your solar projects. I used Borrego Solar out of California…. great guys.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (12:13 pm)From what GM has said, it appears the cutoff temperature will be around -30°F. The battery seems to work down to that…
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It would appear as though there is a misunderstood minus sign, where the meaning was actually “30°F or less“.
That’s just like when people quote +30K for a price, it is understood that they really mean “$30,000 or more”. And that specific temperature makes sense too, since Li-Ion chemistry behavior changes right at the freezing point.
Again, we desperately need a FAQ for this type of info.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (12:59 pm)Cellulosic ethanol is real, and cheap. Check out http://www.coskata.com/ . GM is a major investor in this company.
All the reading I have done indicates that cellulosic ethanol can only be produced in laboratory quantities. It is possible that a process could be discovered which would be economical, but it has not happened yet, and may or may not ever happen.
The claims on this website are not substantiated. I can find you sites with equally good graphics and copy writing that tell you that you can run your car on water, or even air, but being on the web does not make it true.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (2:00 pm)#259 john1701a Says: “It would appear as though there is a misunderstood minus sign, where the meaning was actually “30°F or less“.”
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Nope. -30°F. In other words, the battery works well by itself for the vast majority of weather most of us experience.
By the way, you live in a cold state. Does you Prius need a battery heater?
Dec 2nd, 2008 (2:17 pm)#260 Tom H Says: “All the reading I have done indicates that cellulosic ethanol can only be produced in laboratory quantities.”
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You’ve probably read about advanced fermentation techniques using genetically engineered bacteria. Gasification is totally different.
The point is that there are probably 10 wrong ways of doing this. All you need is 1 right way for it to work.
Obama’s energy plan includes a government mandate that all new cars sold in the U.S. after 2012 are Flex Fuel. After all, it only takes a different type of plastic in the fuel line and some additional software to implement. Not a big deal.
By 2014, around 30% of all vehicles on the road will be E85 capable. That’s the point where most gas station owners will be financially motivated to switch one of their pumps to E85. This demand will trigger big investments in the supply side. Someone in the U.S. will figure how to make ethanol cheap. If Brazil can do it, why can’t we?
Dec 2nd, 2008 (2:55 pm)Nope. -30°F. In other words, the battery works well by itself for the vast majority of weather most of us experience.
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That contradicts the information we’ve been presented with here.
Please state your source.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (4:47 pm)What do I think?
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:
The Volt is crap, and GM is crap. They could produce much better, they just don’t care. This is all a marketing ploy to gullible buyers. The Volt probably costs about $13,000 or under to make, including the approximately $1500 that funds retiree’s pensions. (Toyota & Honda only spend about $400 per car, btw, for employee healthcare).
GM, Ford, or even… gasp… Crysler, flaccid as it may be now, could easily produce an all electric car with a 100 mile range, that goes 80mph top, for under $20,000. Why won’t they? Oil lobbies, patent rights, stubbornness, stupid CEOs, and Union contracts.
Ban Unions, they’re communistic. Let GM fall and go bankrupt. When +500,000 Americans are out of work, they’ll realise how stupid and selfish they were to join Unions that bankrupted and corrupted the industry for which they work.
Also, DavidG above is full of crap. Obama’s energy plan is foolish, and no deeper than propaganda to get him elected. No substance, no reality, no plausibility. Mandates historically are proven ineffective, and destructive to industry. Incentives, however, are proven to work, and benefit both consumers and industry.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (5:45 pm)Thanks to Dave G, #256 for his answer concerning the batteries package cooling/heating part. Unfortunately, the major electric heat generator component, the AC frequency drive, remains uncover… yet!
Dec 2nd, 2008 (6:26 pm)The battery pack also has an electric-heater for very cold days, like -30°F or below. At these cold temperatures, the battery heater will be powered by the gas engine for the first few minutes of driving…
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The cost, weight, and space penalty for a device most owners will never use makes no sense. Temperatures that low are far too rare, even in Minnesota.
Please state your source.
Dec 2nd, 2008 (6:57 pm)John1701a #266
That is easy.
Read the article and quote from Bob Lutz at
“http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/27/bob-lutz-on-chevy-volt-battery-tests-cold-starts-and-use-of-onstar/”
Dec 2nd, 2008 (7:47 pm)He notes this would be a big challenge for a pure EV, but in the Volt the car would start out with the combustion engine on and “run for a few minutes to warm up the battery so that the battery can take over.”
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So… where’s the reference to a specific temperature threshold?
Dec 2nd, 2008 (10:53 pm)was just looking at hondas web site for portable generators, they have one the that puts out 5000w and runs for something like just over 3 and a half ours and the fuel tank was less than 2 liters (i think, may have been gal.?)anyway, would this little badboy stop the ICE engaging if theoreticaly it was in the backseat running and recharging the battery pack? just curious as to what you experts think?
-stuey
Dec 2nd, 2008 (11:01 pm)I don’t totally blame our US manufactures for their present situation. Americans like their big cars & trucks and they were happy to accomodate. If we were gurateed that gas prices would stay down to their present level of UNDER $2.00 per gallon american consumers would be buying big vehicles all over again.
I was encouraged when GM came out with big SUV hybrids (tahoe, yucon, escalde etc.) with gas mileage similar to economy cars in 2008. One was even named “green car of the year.”The solution seems obvious. In exchange for the US tax payers bailing out these companies, why not demand US manufacturers make any vehicle they produce having less than 20 mpg a hybrid? Then they would finally satisfy the CAFE MPG ratings the government has been trying to implement for years. Nothing works better than tying money to compliance to motivate someone to do something. In this case something we the government has been seeking for years without success.
The economies of scale in making ALL big vehicles hybrids would greatly reduce the cost of manufacturing hybrids so that the upcharge would be perhaps 1/2 of the usual $5k we see and the remaining $2,500.00 would be covered by the tax rebate the federal government already provides consumers for purchasing a hybrid! If there is no longer a premium to pay who will complain that their new big car has to be a hybrid?
Overall Gas consumption would be down, reducing our dependence on foreign oil, the economy would be stimulated by new auto sales, US auto makers would be able to repay their loans & employees keep their jobs, air pollution would be reduced etc. Consumers WANT the big cars and U.S. auto makers already have them. Give the big cars similar mileage to the little ones and we can all have our cake & eat it too!
I believe in turning negatives into posotives. Allow me to find the silver lining in your mortgage lending needs today.
http://www.MortgageAdvisor.info & http://www.GregZaccagni.com
Related Articles:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4252623.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/ultrabattery-combines-supercapacitor.html
Dec 3rd, 2008 (6:31 am)#268 John1701a says,
So… where’s the reference to a specific temperature threshold?
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The article from the link I sent you states:
“With respect to that, he describes an interesting scenario where its 40 below in North Dakota and the battery needs to be warmed in order to function properly. He notes this would be a big challenge for a pure EV, but in the Volt the car would start out with the combustion engine on and “run for a few minutes to warm up the battery so that the battery can take over.”
Dec 3rd, 2008 (12:32 pm)40 below
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A threshold is the point at which the engine will or won’t run for required warm up. Anything colder, it will. Anything warmer, it won’t.
There is nothing to support the claim that -30°F is a threshold. For that matter, there isn’t even a reference to that particular temperature.
Put another way, it was 21°F here this morning. Would the engine have run?
Dec 3rd, 2008 (5:07 pm)#272 John1701a,
Heck if I know. My old Sunbird was in the driveway with two other cars in Vermont when the temperature was -17°F.
My car was the only one to have started.
I know batteries are affected by cold, but at what temperature or by how much they are affected, I honestly have no idea.
I’m not really part of this discussion. I was just trying to help by providing the only link available to us concerning temperature and battery.
Like you, I have never seen the reference to -30°F either.
I guess we will find out when the Volt comes out. I think you have colder winters in MN than I do in CT.
I lived near Appleton, WI for a winter, and I know it was colder there than CT.
Dec 5th, 2008 (8:04 pm)Here in Pgh the Volt will do very well… most commutes are less than 10 miles…. mine is 9 miles each way… should be perfect. I’m ready for the electric driveline… no tranny.. no annoying shifting… smooth acceleration…. nice.
Would like a more utilitarian vehicle like the HHR. maybe GM will make the HHR a plug-in… that would suit me just right.
Dec 8th, 2008 (7:51 pm)it sounds like gm is still in the oil company’s pockets.
1- we the consumers are not going to be buying power from an indian gas station/
2- we are not impressed that he can drive 20 miles on a 60% charge when we know he couild with current technology be driving continiously withour external charging.(the dam car chan charge itself as it drives alone).
3-Gm has spent years delivering sorry, awful automobiles at hugh outragerious prices to us which costs thousands to keep running. (it’s a quality problem stupid, and short 20 mile hops in front of a camera is not going top convence anyone).
4-You’ve been so unbelivable for so long that you have to come up with something belivable before i buy it and this blookland bridge you are trying sell us want sell.
5- It has to go all electric with home/office charging as well as on the road chargiong with batteries which don’t have to be replaced at robbery prices every 4 yrs.
Dec 13th, 2008 (12:46 pm)Of all the cars manufactured by the Big 3, The Chevy Volt is the only one that we should save. If GM is forced into bankruptcy, I hope this car is resurrected under a new entity. I would by stock in that company.
Dec 13th, 2008 (1:37 pm)Now that’s a nice looking Chevy and a big step in the right direction. I’m not a big fan of alternatively fueled automobiles. In my opinion power production should be left to the power company. My foremost worry with this automobile would be that the gasoline in the tank could go bad. I imagine that not everyone will benefit from a plug-in but for those who can it will be measureless.
Dec 16th, 2008 (1:05 pm)No battery to date can equal 1/4th the power density of a gallon of bio diesel.
No one in their right mind will pay $40,000+ for a over complicated electric golf cart with such a short range and long recharge time. This car is a dead duck. Just a rich man’s toy.
Dec 28th, 2008 (3:45 pm)Sorry, but given real history, I still think Toyota and Honda will beat them to the street in terms of product, quality and price.
I’ll believe in the Volt when I see it on the roads for 2 years at least – enough time to get past the ‘initial quality’ nonsense that GM still touts in their ads, long after the economic disaster and subsequent admissions to congress that their vehicles lacked in quality and design compared to ‘foreign’ imports (many of which are built here now).
While I’m interested in the Volt as a concept, I think that given GM’s past record on electrics and innovation, we should wait til it actually shows up in showrooms and works as advertised without weekly defect repairs. Will the $20+ Billion in aid packages given by the US and Canadian governments translate into some kind of savings or coupon to average leading edge buyers, or will it evaporate into marketing and executive bonuses again?
Show us the car already; we’ve shown you the money.