Flextreme Concept Wins Prestigious Design Award, Still Not Production Intent
In late 2007, GM unveiled the Opel Flextreme concept car and later showed it rebadged as Saturn.
The vehicle has a unique monocab design, but importantly, like the Chevy Volt, is also an E-Flex vehicle. It is meant to demonstrate how the range-extender could also be diesel and how the E-Flex E-REV drivetrain could be implemented in a utility vehicle body.
Many have praised the design.
Today GM announced that the Opel Flextreme was recognized by an international jury and received the prestigious red dot award in a ceremony in Singapore.
I asked GMs Director of Communications from Opel in Europe, Jean-Philippe Kempf, whether since the design has been so acclaimed that GM might move it into production.
He replied:
While I cannot directly comment on future products, I can tell you that you will see further implementations and evolutions of the new Opel design language in future Opel on one hand, and that the E-REV concept will also be deployed within the GM brands.
Do not expect to see the Flextreme hit production. But stay tuned, and you will find many of (not all) the ideas it contains in future Opel products.
Vijay Iyer who is GM Europe’s Manager of Design Communication told me the following:
We expect the first iteration of an Opel/Vauxhall E-REV to be quite close to the Volt, but there could well be Opel/Vauxhall specific designs in the future.
Source (GM)
Popularity: 2%
Related posts:
- Opel Flextreme is not for Production: Chevy Volt will be a Global Vehicle
- Is This Really an Opel Flextreme Prototype Spy Photo?
- GM CEO Admits to Dedicated Production E-Flex Opel Program
- Saturn Flextreme E-Flex Concept Vehicle
- British Variant of the Volt May be Called the Vauxhall Electra
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74 Responses to “Flextreme Concept Wins Prestigious Design Award, Still Not Production Intent”
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November 28th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
this design is aerodynamic enough for Volt . wonder why this was not used . GM could have prevented the backlash brought about by the shift from the Volt’s concept design to the eventual Malivolt production car design
November 28th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
I hope they make an E-Flex sport wagon.
November 28th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Why all this secrecy about future products? You would have thought that any publicity about something new and exciting would draw the crowds and generate goodwill and cache. They don’t have much to hang their hats on at the moment!!
November 28th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
My goodness. Am I the only person that sees that thing from the back and immediately think of a THONG. Takes me back to my junior high days and all the wedgies.
November 28th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
#3 andy
Why all this secrecy about future products? You would have thought that any publicity about something new and exciting would draw the crowds and generate goodwill and cache. They don’t have much to hang their hats on at the moment!!
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Simple fact: There isn’t any future products. All current new projects are on hold or cancelled (except for the Volt…which has now ‘transformed’ into a basic sedan)…all future R&D is cut.
If the ‘flextreme’ had been ‘green lit’ for production it would surely haved suffered the same fate as the Volt concept. This car screams, ‘look for Flextreme styling clues in future models’ ie) we might keep the idea for the door handles or front grill, but thats it.
/be glad it lives on as it is, and has not put been under the ‘production knife’…I’m sure if GM survives through 2012, we will see plenty of cross-brand Volt-alikes zipping around
November 28th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
#1 “This design is aerodynamic enough for Volt . wonder why this was not used”
Because “Americans don’t buy hatchbacks.”
No, really. Just ask Mini or Honda…
Still, you can see the cultural difference between Chevrolet and Opel here: Chevy started the Volt with a Camaro. Opel started with an Astra…
November 28th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Photovoltaic manufacturer places bid to buy Opel.
“SolarWorld is still “seriously interested” in acquiring the German unit of General Motors, Adam Opel, and has received favorable reactions from inside the firm in Germany, SolarWorld’s chief executive said.”
http://ca.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSTRE4AR4BH20081128?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
Now we’re getting somewhere. An electric car with an optional 5 Kilowatt solar array to “fuel” the car. That’s what the future could bring if people start thinking clearly
November 28th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
I’m with Cautious Fan on the design. The split back window is strange. Wonder if there is a camera?
LyleL - My 5 kW system takes up a good part of my roof. That’s house roof, not car roof. Cars just aren’t large enough to produce a significant amount of electricity from PV panels.
Also, don’t you think it strange that Germany — the original dark state of Europe — is a hotbed of solar installation? How much sunlight can they get there?
November 28th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
They should only give out awards to cars that are in production, not to pre-production, not to concept cars, but to production cars only.
I don’t care how many awards a car has..if it’s not in production, it doesn’t mean a damned thing.
November 28th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
This is a CONCEPT folks. Like any concept from any automaker, almost no CONCEPT goes from CONCEPT to production looking like the CONCEPT. Heck, most concepts are *never* even turned into production vehicles. They more often just use ideas from CONCEPTs and use them in other designs.
This CONCEPT looks like it has the rear passenger doors open backwards. I definitely don’t think that would make it into a production vehicle… I know the idea has been used before on production vehicles, but I think it’s too dangerous… imagine what happens if someone stupidly opens the door while the car is moving… the wind could whip it open I would imagine?
This CONCEPT also looks like it has a lot of blind spots for the driver. And like the Volt concept, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was like a “brick” in a wind tunnel.
In any case, glad to see Lyle actually have a post that doesn’t try to sell us (like a used car salesman) on a GM bailout
November 29th, 2008 at 12:20 am
It’s stupid of them not to make a production version of this well-received car. Design cues are nice (like the new Cadillacs and their Sixteen elements) but a production version of the whole car would be a lot a better.
It has to be financial problems that’s preventing them from making the Flextreme the European Volt.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Believe it or not, I took volt pic from my desktop background after a day or 2 for this pic (Saturn Flextreme ) and it looked very nice and fits GMs path ( softroader SUV ), Even my two year old kid says with pride - ‘my car ‘
Only strange thing was the back side and thatz enough to drop the sales.
If this comes in production with change on back side, with EREV - with 3 models for FWD,4×4 and AWD, this will be no; competetor for Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4 or one more model( i didnt find it now in toyota home page but they say prius v3 is comming in 44 days ) or nissan murano , If this bit smaller then it can compete with FIT too
November 29th, 2008 at 3:38 am
Concept cars are not and cannot be production vehicles. No practicality barriers are followed when designing a concept car. Cost is no concern and neither is feasibility or road-worthiness. Most critically safety is not a factor in the design. That one consideration will drastically alter the look of any concept on it’s way to production. Everybody loves concept cars because they’re so imaginative. Only making concepts that could go straight into production would lead to very long development times and really lousy “concept” cars.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:21 am
Yea, you might be right static, nothing in the cupboard!
Marcus, the pictures look ok to me for production, nothing we haven’t seen before. As an aside, why did GM change the looks of our “commodore” and relabel it G8. 1/ It added to the cost ( which added to GM’s sinking bottom line)and 2/ its not as pretty anymore. Are American tastes that jaded or are the manufacturers so fixated on mass production that a standout isn’t allowed to stand out?
November 29th, 2008 at 4:37 am
I can see the Flextreme nose section on a future E-REV Pontiac. The roof and rear are not practical.
Off the chart development cost and paralyzing final cost to the consumer. Simple consumer guidelines for a struggling GM:
$25,000 Expectation for a new car
$30,000 Feature loaded new car ~ w/ hybrid economy or 250+ HP
$35,000 Something special “dream car”
$40,000 Your mic is breaking up, boost your gain
$50,000 “Any more Hennessy Paradis in our rooftop suite?”
$60,000 Huh?
=D~
November 29th, 2008 at 5:58 am
I like it better than the Volt. It looks like it would do nicely in a wind tunnel. It would work for me without the two rear doors that open from the front.
November 29th, 2008 at 7:07 am
I can understand why GM doesn’t like to talk about future products - because it hurts current sales.
For instance, the Saturn Vue with the 6 cyl engine will go from an EPA rating of 16/22 to 28/31 with the 2-mode hybrid option. That is a substantial improvement.
My wife would like to get a new GMC Acadia or Buick Enclave (about 16/23 in AWD), but I’ve told her we need to wait for the 2-mode version. I’m sure other people are thinking the same, so this too is hurting GM’s sales - people are waiting for these future products (just like some are waiting for the Volt).
I hope GM can survive this downturn, because I believe the technology is available today to really reduce our dependence on oil over the next decade or so.
November 29th, 2008 at 7:21 am
I love the Flextreme and wish it was for sale today.
November 29th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Overall I think it looks cool, but I wouldn’t buy it without some aesthetic modifications.
Particularly, I don’t like the boomerang head lights area and the back looks ugly as hell, lol.
I would hate to drive that thing and not know that there could be a motorbiker right behind me
November 29th, 2008 at 7:33 am
Don’t you just love these guys?
_________________
Saturday November 29, 7:28 am ET
Saudi king says oil should be $75 per barrel as OPEC gathers for emergency meeting
The king was echoed by Qatar’s Oil Minister Abdullah Bin Hamad al-Attiya, who told the Arab news channel Al-Arabiya that prices needed to rise to guarantee investment into the oil sector.
“The price between 70 to 80 (dollars a barrel) is the one encouraging in investment and developing new or current oil fields,” he said. “It falls below 70 (dollars), the investment would freeze, which will lead to a crisis in supply in the future.”
The cartel has already held an emergency meeting in Vienna on Oct. 24 to announce a production cut of 1.5 million barrels per day.
=D~
November 29th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Another artist rendering of a car that has zero design for manufacturability or feasibility…I do not know why anyone would award you anything for a fantasy.
If it went to production, I would expect it would eventually transform (no pun intended, but now that I see the pun, I find it slightly funny) into another Volt like disappointment.
BTW: I paid $1.67/gal. this week! This is a real bullet in the Volt, in my opinion.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:34 am
A little off topic but this car has always been on my radar….If the Insight even comes close to the 71mpg, the Volt will be history. (I know its not a series hybrid, but with that kind of mpg it almost becomes a moot point).
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One Honda insider told Edmunds the Insight’s fuel economy would be “insane,” with some Japanese sources predicting mileage as high as 71 mpg. Actual mileage will likely be lower when it hits our shores, but should still be impressive.
And if those lofty fuel-economy numbers weren’t enough to cause an instant waiting list for the new hybrid, the next-generation Insight will list from under $18,500 – undercutting the Prius by thousands of dollars.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-insight.html
November 29th, 2008 at 8:36 am
A little off topic but this car has always been on my radar….If the Insight even comes close to the 71mpg, the Volt will be in real trouble, assuming it ever makes it to the market place. (I know its not a series hybrid and all the NPNS gibberish, but with that kind of mpg, does it really matter?).
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One Honda insider told Edmunds the Insight’s fuel economy would be “insane,” with some Japanese sources predicting mileage as high as 71 mpg. Actual mileage will likely be lower when it hits our shores, but should still be impressive.
And if those lofty fuel-economy numbers weren’t enough to cause an instant waiting list for the new hybrid, the next-generation Insight will list from under $18,500 – undercutting the Prius by thousands of dollars.
Unable to post the link…seems to not like Honda news
anyway the source is “leftlanenews.com” and you can google/find the full article if your interested.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:47 am
#3 andy Says: “Why all this secrecy about future products? You would have thought that any publicity about something new and exciting would draw the crowds and generate goodwill and cache.”
————————————————————————————–
Two reasons for this:
1) GM doesn’t want their competition to know what they are planning.
2) If GM changes their plans after going public, people would be upset.
Bottom line: The Volt is a new technology for mass production cars, so GM can release early details without too much risk exposure. But with other E-Flex variants, it’s mostly marketing, not technology. So GM will probably keep this private until they have production approval.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:54 am
#20 JEC - $1.67/gal gas is exactly why we need government backing to keep us moving away from oil. Long term trends still for oild prices are still not good. As an economy we can’t afford to import so many manufactured goods AND import most of our transportation energy (oil). We have to keep pushing forward so that we change the fundamentals of our economy, to borrow 1/2 of a phrase.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:05 am
# 21 JEC,
Honda’s CEO Takuo Fukui has said that the 2009 Honda Insight hybrid “will MIRROR” the fuel economy of the current Honda Civic hybrid, which gets about 40/45 mpg. The only ‘wow factor’ about the Insight will be it’s pricing. The Volt will trump the Insight’s fuel economy by a very large margin.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:35 am
#24 tBay
“2009 Honda Insight hybrid “will MIRROR” the fuel economy of the current Honda Civic hybrid, which gets about 40/45 mpg”
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Where did you read this? Can you link me to it? I really expected the Insight to perform much better than the current Civic hybrids. The original Insight, which was only a 2 seater got very good mileage, and I would expect with all the advances in tech. that the new Insight would be able to at least match the specs of the discontinued Insight model. Also, unlike some US car makers, the Japanese tend to not reveal a lot on the specifications of new concepts, and keep to competition off balance.
=====================
#23 MarkinWI
I am not arguing the need to get off oil, just that in general people will “forget” about our oil dependencies with oil at such a low price. The price of the Volt at $35,000 vs. $19,000 makes the Honda an affordable solution. Hard to justify the big $ difference.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:52 am
#21 JEC,
I seriously doubt the Insight will achieve 71 mpg, but for comparison the Volt will average 311 mpg. See here for details:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/Plugin_mileage.xls
This spreadsheet is designed to calculate average mileage for any plug-in.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:00 am
#20 JEC
You sounds upset about lower gas prices. I know it’s made Thanksgiving better for many people as it has allowed them to travel to see family.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:06 am
#27 Cautious
Upset? Nope. I drive nearly 100 miles a day for work. I prefer $0 gas, if I could get it.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:17 am
#25 JEC Says: “I am not arguing the need to get off oil, just that in general people will “forget” about our oil dependencies with oil at such a low price. The price of the Volt at $35,000 vs. $19,000 makes the Honda an affordable solution. Hard to justify the big $ difference.”
————————————————————————————–
Even at $4 a gallon, the Insight will be tough to beat. The Volt will cost around $30K after tax credits. If the Insight gets 40 MPG, then the Volt will only save $800 per year over the Insight in fuel costs. At that rate, it will take around 14 years to break even with a $19K Insight, and that’s at at $4 per gallon.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:27 am
#28 JEC Says: “I drive nearly 100 miles a day for work. I prefer $0 gas, if I could get it.”
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If you could plug in at work, then at $4 / gallon your break even time between an Insight and a Volt would be under 6 years.
At $2 / gallon, it would take over 15 years to break even.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:28 am
The Iron Max Flextreme wheels are not growing on me.
I would love to see the Volt in this color red…
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Flextreme.jpg
=D~
November 29th, 2008 at 10:30 am
#24 tbay said, Honda’s CEO Takuo Fukui has said that the 2009 Honda Insight hybrid “will MIRROR” the fuel economy of the current Honda Civic hybrid, which gets about 40/45 mpg.
#25 JEC said, Where did you read this?
—————————————-
It is true. It is some kind of ‘talking point’ bulletin from Honda now. The CEO says it, the VPs say it…the dancing girls at the autoshow say it.
What has happened is that in the quest to have a ‘Prius Killer’ they have inadvertantly made a internal battle between the ‘now’ car and the ‘future’ car.
It makes sense for them to say, ‘expect similar to the Hybrid Civic’ now, because they want to sell as many of the $23,000 42MPG cars as they can (as the Insight is still months away). If they started promoting the Insight as a Prius fighter at $18,500 with 47-50MPG, it would obliterate the Civic Hybrid sales (which it probably has crippled them pretty bad anyway).
/personally, I’m still looking for 50 MPG when I get my Insight…might see a hard number on mileage drop at the Detroit autoshow…if anyone is still planning on showing up to that, lol
November 29th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Wow.
Just cut the split rear window..
Then put a Cadillac badge on it.
Make it in Detroit.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:34 am
The award means nothing.
Just like the ‘Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles’ meant nothing as well.
It should be of no surprise to anyone that there is no intent for production of this vehicle.
The fix is still in boys.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:46 am
#33 Greg Finkbiner: Make it in Detroit.
Alongside the Saturn Vue.
In Ramos Arizpe, Mexico.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Just like the ‘Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles’ meant nothing as well.
__________________________________
PNGV was making real progress until the Bush administration killed it. (In fact, the prototypes give Volt an awkward history.) Also, the funding of that program for domestics is the very thing that pushed the competition to create Prius. That’s far from nothing.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:56 am
#36 john1701a
Agreed, the one good thing from PNGV was that it scared the Japanese into creating the Prius.
November 29th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
JEC, here’s a link that references the Insight’s fuel economy.
http://www.myride.com/preview/2008_paris_auto_show-preview-4225-page1.html
November 29th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
GM sounds like our old hospital administrator. He did not care about the financial well being of the hospital, just about his awards. In fact in Christmas Story style….Major Awards. Why not put this kind of money into staying alive. My name is ricky wagoner and I am their leader….duh.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
38 tBay
Thanks! Interesting how mpg estimates vary so wildly, but Statiks take on this does seem to hold some water. I guess its time to sit back and take that “Wait-n-see” attitude.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
#36 john1701a Says: “PNGV (Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles) was making real progress until the Bush administration killed it. (In fact, the prototypes give Volt an awkward history.) Also, the funding of that program for domestics is the very thing that pushed the competition to create Prius. That’s far from nothing.”
————————————————————————————–
Yes. Well said. More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Generation_of_Vehicles
November 29th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
That car is ugly.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Does anyone know if GM has a Volt at the Phx International Auto show this weekend? Thx.
November 29th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
it looks to futuristic, it needs a nuke power system and then it would be ok
I’ve been gone for a week, anybody miss me?
NO PLUG NO SALE, LJGTVWOTR, (my house) =D~~~~~~~~(my volt)
November 29th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
“Atomic batteries to power…turbines up to speed…lets go”
November 29th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Oooo, that car is simply “EGG”tastic, the Super Prius!
I wanted one now in brilliant white!
November 29th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
#44 J Man Says:
That car is ugly.
—————-
No. You are wrong. It is really nice looking. lol.
November 29th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
#47 User Name Says:
“Atomic batteries to power…turbines up to speed…lets go”
————–
Oh if only we could. If only we could.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
My understanding of what this comment from the Opel representative said was don’t expect us to produce vehicles that would actually have broad acceptance and acclaim because we are more intent on keeping the same old hang dog line up that no one really wants but that we have invested time and money into. That is certainly a winning attitude for GM and its Opel division to take. A winning attitude for Toyota and Honda, that is.
November 29th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
GM Thailand announces one year delay in upgrading / revamping factory’s.
/Gee I wonder why?
November 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
I like the Volt. Hope to own one someday. Hope to be oil free someday. Lawnmower, tools, you name it, all converted to electric over the past 24 months. Just a car away from Middle-East oil free.
US Air Force retired. Waiting for the General to build the car of tomorrow.
November 29th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Congratulations to GM for this impressive award. We like the turbo-diesel genset and expect to see this design element in other offerings.
Hopefully this design will influence other manufacturers to build similar PHEVs. And with enough support, GM will go forward with a production version of this vehicle.
Volt rules! 2010 - Volt changes automotive history.
November 29th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
“Do not expect to see the Flextreme hit production. But stay tuned, and you will find many of (not all) the ideas it contains in future Opel products.”
========================================
If future Opel products contain about as much from the Flextreme as Chevy got from the Volt concept’s transition to the Volt, that amount will be approximately zero.
One thing the Volt concept to production sequence has taught us is that concepts are best ignored. Nothing about the Volt concept seems to be on the path to reality, whether styling or performance related. GM has really let us down.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Dave G, Statik, JEC - on the mileage of an Insight.
The sad fact is that parallel hybrids are something of a dead end. No matter what the claims are, in the real world the mileage is going to be about what it is today. Maybe a bit better around the edges, but nothing to write home about.
The problem is that a parallel hybrid is not designed to deliver sufficient power over the range of expected driving habits. So, unless you drive like you have an egg between your foot and the gas pedal, the ICE is going to kick in. A lot. Like every time you accelerate strongly from a stop or on the highway. Not only does having the ICE kick on and off do not very nice things to your mileage, it also produces a lot of pollution.
Why so much more pollution? Because the catalytic converter takes a minute to warm up, after which emissions drop to almost zero. Having the ICE kick on and off doesn’t allow the converter time to heat up. The resulting cold starts are what kill mileage and make the Prius and Insight relatively “dirty” cars when compared to a serial hybrid like the Volt.
For the same reason the Prius plug-in has no capacity to compete with the Volt on a mpg basis. Again, the fundamental deficiency for the Prius and Insight is that the lack of power over a range of driving situations requires cold starts, which in turn reduce mpg. Contrary to what has sometimes been suggested, sticking in a larger battery and keeping the engine the same size, as with a Prius plug-in, doesn’t give you more power in EV mode. It therefore won’t help most normal drivers with the cold starts and, therefore, won’t help appreciably with mileage (or pollution). Unless of course you’re willing to drive like a hyper-miler and a granny, which very few people are. Definitely not Statik. No doughnuts for sure.
November 29th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Cool design. The split rear window will never make it past regulations. Talk about your blind spot….. Speaking of regulations, they need to be loosened up a bunch. Just my opinion.
November 29th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
#56 DonC
Dave G, Statik, JEC - on the mileage of an Insight.
The sad fact is that parallel hybrids are something of a dead end. No matter what the claims are, in the real world the mileage is going to be about what it is today. Maybe a bit better around the edges, but nothing to write home about.
The problem is that a parallel hybrid is not designed to deliver sufficient power over the range of expected driving habits. So, unless you drive like you have an egg between your foot and the gas pedal, the ICE is going to kick in. A lot. Like every time you accelerate strongly from a stop or on the highway. Not only does having the ICE kick on and off do not very nice things to your mileage, it also produces a lot of pollution.
For the same reason the Prius plug-in has no capacity to compete with the Volt on a mpg basis. Again, the fundamental deficiency for the Prius and Insight is that the lack of power over a range of driving situations requires cold starts, which in turn reduce mpg. Contrary to what has sometimes been suggested, sticking in a larger battery and keeping the engine the same size, as with a Prius plug-in, doesn’t give you more power in EV mode. It therefore won’t help most normal drivers with the cold starts and, therefore, won’t help appreciably with mileage (or pollution). Unless of course you’re willing to drive like a hyper-miler and a granny, which very few people are. Definitely not Statik. No doughnuts for sure
————————————————–
Yes parallels max out at around 50 MPG max…just the way it is.
Where the Insight (and Prius) compete is the price, which is the main driver to volume sales right now. In this day and age a all EV or E-Rev (like the Volt) can’t compete on a economic sensibility level.
50MPG/$18,500 beats 40 mile range and 50 MPG/$40,000 everytime.
Side note: I know it is splitting hairs, but just for the record the Plug-In Prius Concept went 7 miles range on NiMH batteries, Toyota is on record for production use of Li batteries and a 10-11 mile range.
November 29th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Lumping both the FULL hybrid type and ASSIST into a single category called “parallel” shows a total lack of constructive intent. The two types have rather significant component & operational differences.
Calling the design “dead end” even though the Hymotion upgrade (which delivers about 35 miles worth of electric capacity) now being used for Prius by consumers is rather blatant greenwashing.
And the claim about warm-up being a problem for other hybrids but not for Volt is just plain wrong. We know that isn’t true. Anytime an engine is run, the cat requires heat. Otherwise, the vehicle will not be given a clean EPA emission-rating (like SULEV or PZEV).
November 29th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
The question is: Why in the world are hybrids like Prius considered a target for ridicule here?
They are the very thing that is helping to steer the market in the direction of Volt. They are pushing mass production of automotive-scale batteries into high gear, something that Volt will clearly benefit from. They are even introducing the mainstream to the idea of routine plug-in for your car.
It’s like biting the hand that feeds you.
November 30th, 2008 at 12:44 am
john1701a - “Why in the world are hybrids like Prius considered a target for ridicule here?”
Pointing out that the design is limited doesn’t amount to ridicule. As a practical point most posts here that discuss the Prius either insult Toyota or say the plug-in version will be a Volt killer. Pointing out that it’s time to to move on to a better technology doesn’t do one and refutes the second. The fact is that a plug in serial hybrid is as much an improvement over a plug in parallel as a plug in parallel is to a conventional ICE.
November 30th, 2008 at 12:56 am
#58 statik - “50MPG/$18,500 beats 40 mile range and 50 MPG/$40,000 everytime.”
Put that way, yes. But we can change the question. First on the price: I’ve seen many people say that a Prius is $21K but everyone I’ve known who has bought one has paid more like $28K. So let’s say that the Insight is more like $25K. That seems more likely.
On the price, it’s becoming clear that the Volt will be $35K. With the $7.5K incentive that’s $27.5K.
Compared to the Insight, the Volt will use about one fourth the gas and emit about one fifth the emissions.
So let’s change your proposition. Now let’s say: Do you want to spend $2.5K and use one fourth the gasoline, or do you want to “save” a paltry $2.5K up front and use four times more gas and spew five times more pollutants?
November 30th, 2008 at 2:17 am
I have an electric lawn mower, I hate it
November 30th, 2008 at 3:49 am
It is my desktop wall paper for some time. It looked appealing than volt design for me ( yep except the car door open style , top and the back design ).
44 days more and Prius v3 seems coming with 93 mpg, more powerful motor etc. Lets see how Prius will take on volt after 2 yrs ( i can imagine its tough time for Volt too)
November 30th, 2008 at 4:18 am
The Prius is not disliked for what it does but for what it could have been. A plug-in version with double the battery capacity (AH) by using LiPh batteries could have double the milage. This is its great failing, it hasn’t evolved over the past 5 yrs. The new one is now tuned for more performance, sigh. Also I don’t think $5k here or there is going to make any difference to the number they sell. If the Volt wins wide accolades on arrival, it will be very hard to get your hands on one anyway-the end price will be what the market will bare . My guess $30-$40k, and they will sell well!
November 30th, 2008 at 7:31 am
$62 DonC says “On the price, it’s becoming clear that the Volt will be $35K. With the $7.5K incentive that’s $27.5K.”
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This price is becoming clear? How so?
(It’s not clear to me.)
November 30th, 2008 at 7:39 am
… clear that the Volt will be $35K.
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The Volt will eventually cost $28,900 without a credit. Initial price will be more like $40,000 ($32,500 after credit). And these will be sold before they reach the dealer lot.
A standard Honda Accord 4 cylinder cost $23,000. A hybrid Honda Accord 6 cylinder cost $33,000. A hybrid insight will not cost $19,000.
=D~
November 30th, 2008 at 9:33 am
#62 DonC said,
#58 statik - “50MPG/$18,500 beats 40 mile range and 50 MPG/$40,000 everytime.”
Put that way, yes. But we can change the question. First on the price: I’ve seen many people say that a Prius is $21K but everyone I’ve known who has bought one has paid more like $28K. So let’s say that the Insight is more like $25K. That seems more likely.
On the price, it’s becoming clear that the Volt will be $35K. With the $7.5K incentive that’s $27.5K.
So let’s change your proposition. Now let’s say: Do you want to spend $2.5K and use one fourth the gasoline, or do you want to “save” a paltry $2.5K up front and use four times more gas and spew five times more pollutants?
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You just can’t do that. That is way over the top with the rationalizing. Your adding as much premium as you can to the competition and max low balling the Volt MSRP with no premium.
The fact is you CAN get a Prius for 22K, the fact is that the Honda execs are on record at decently under 20K, with $18,500 & $19,000 being the most common reference points. We have absolutely nothing from GM on price.
Most people add options to their cars, which increases the price, that is certainly true, but the same can be said for the potential Volt buyers. If your asserting that the average Insight or Prius buyer adds $6,000 to their cars in options, do you think that logically Volt buyers will not do the same? How can you add the buyer premium to the Prius/Insight and not the Volt? I’d say the average consumer ‘additional premium options’ on the Volt will be a lot more than the Insight. The Volt is high end, high visability…the Insight is functional practibility. The rule of thumb for options has always been, the more expensive the car is, the more dollars are spend on options.
So sure, if all the thing you say come true (and GM builts the Volt fully loaded, with no options available and the Insight comes say without wheels as a option) making the actual difference only $2,500, thats a no brainer, the Volt is a winner.
But I got as much money as you want to wager that my Insight’s invoice that I get in the spring is a heck of a lot cheaper than $2,500 under the BASE price of the my Volt (after rebates), whenever (and if) that day comes.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:42 am
#67 Dave K said, “A standard Honda Accord 4 cylinder cost $23,000. A hybrid Honda Accord 6 cylinder cost $33,000. A hybrid insight will not cost $19,000.”
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“When it launches next spring, the Insight will be the most affordable hybrid car on the road. But we’re not skimping on features”
–—Dan Bonawitz, Honda Vice President
Honda is targeting annual global sales of 200,000 units per year, with approximately 100,000 in North America. Honda is aiming for affordability with the new Insight, which is expected to sell for approximately $19,000—several thousand dollars below the Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/honda-insight-overview.html
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I know, even myself I think $19,000 is a pretty ‘magical’ type number, but that is what they are putting out there and the car drops to the public in like 5 months. (still waiting for my dealer to put a MSRP to my deposit, lol) Personally, I’d still be delighted at anything at $22K or less.
I just don’t understand how we can put such hard and firm estimate on the Volt when we have gotten jack-squat from them on pricing and then turn around in the same breath and slap a 30-40% ‘executive BS’ premium on Honda who are on the record. I think it is a double standard to do so.
Side note: I’m not really attempting to squash the Volt as a viable product with this train of thought…it is ‘new and cool,’ and that justifies its price. If GM only builts 10-60K of these a year, it will be a sell out for many, many years.
November 30th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Pointing out that it’s time to to move on to a better technology…
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All automakers require a sustainable product quickly. That means something they can sell by the millions for a profit to keep the business going.
To be better, it would have to at least meet that criteria. Clearly, it doesn’t yet.
November 30th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
#63 Casey Says: “I have an electric lawn mower, I hate it”
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I have an electric string trimmer. I love it!
November 30th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
#67 Dave K. Says: “Initial price will be more like $40,000 ($32,500 after credit).”
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According to GM’s CEO, the Volt will initially cost “mid-to-high 30s”, or around $30,000 after the tax credit.
Bob Lutz has said the thing that drove up the price the most was the assumption that every battery will have to be replaced under waranty, meaning 2 batteries for every car sold.
But Lutz has said more recently the batteries are performing better than expected in the longevity and durability tests, so the cost may come down soon.
In addition, Lutz said the the model 2012 Volt will have many cost improvements. The 2012 model is the next model year after the initial 2011 Volt that will be available in November of 2010.
So all signs point to lower prices fairly soon.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:56 pm
the new Volt design is ugly… why they didn’t use the concept.. this could be the reason i will buy something else
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:13 pm
PNGV was cancelled because the politicians listened to their a$$hole suckup buddies like Amory Lovins. He of the fame for starving at least 35 million Chinese to death, with his asinine backyard blast furnaces ideas, that Chairman Mao unfortunately, actually believed in and adopted.
Politically connected, he Demanded and Got that the PNGV auto bodies be built out of unrecyclable Billion dollar B2 bomber materials instead of recyclable steel, to save a few pounds or weight.
It made the the PNGV cost a $3/4 of a million per, if ever they were put into production.
The money went instead to create the US Automotive Battery Consortium. USABC, which let the auto makers and the battery makers collaborate to develop Lithium-Ion batteries for auto applications.
Where would we be if the were no Lithium Ion Batteries? Still bitching about the death of the Lead Acid EV1; it being a convenient liberal conspiracy theory?
Tell me quick what is bringing the electric auto to reality faster, Li-Ion batteries or B2 bomber composite material bodies?
The PNGV was a car designed by a government committee. and just about as build-able and realistic. As realistic as $10,000. toilet seats…
I see that there is another idiot who actually believes that the CAFE rules have EVER been reduced, in any way. Its another convenient propaganda liberal conspiracy fantasy too.