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What Would Happen to the Chevy Volt if GM Failed?

November 27th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

In the present economic climate, GM requires urgent loans from the government or else it will fail.

If that were to occur one cannot help but wonder what would happen to the Chevy Volt.

Chris Paine director of ‘Who Killed the Electric Car” envisions that his new documentary “Revenge of the Electric Car” due in 2010 along with the Volt could wind up with a dark ending.

There has been much debate over whether GM should simply go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, reorganize and re-emerge leaner and in better financial shape.

There are considered to be two problems with that approach. First, strategic bankruptcy couldn’t take place in the current credit-strapped financial environment where there is no access to the loans required to restructure. Second, studies indicate that people wont buy cars from an automaker in bankruptcy, thereby destroying future growth potential.

Thus in the absence of a federal bailout, GM may be forced to simply shut down operations and all of its assets would be liquidated.

I asked Dr. David Cole who is the Chairman of the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) what he thinks could happen to the Volt in that scenario.

He said, “no matter what the outcome in the next few weeks or months, the Volt will live. It is just too important and even in the tough cash situation of GM today, there has been no cut in the Volt program. I think the government will step up with some bridge funding.”

We can only hope.

Posted by: Lyle

96 Responses to “What Would Happen to the Chevy Volt if GM Failed?”

Ignatius Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 10:07 pm

As much as I look forward to the Volt, GM has seen this coming for years and ignored it as they crushed the EV1s. While I don’t agree giving a company a helping hand due to poor shortsightedness (this is capitalism after all), the Volt is a step in the right direction for mostly gas-free travel.

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SteveF Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 10:22 pm

I cannot imagine the governement to let GM fail. I agree that GM needs to deliver a real plan and am hoping they can somehow do major restructuring without having to go bankrupt. GM has made mistakes but so have AIG and many of the other banks that are getting much more that $25B. Of course I do not like the bailouts but as long as GM has a real plan, they should and must get the loan. The whole country, way beyond the mid-west would be greatly impacted by the failing of GM. Way beyond the ending of Volt. I strongly believe that the new Obama Administration understands that the Volt is an important component of us be fuel independent and will not let the Volt and GM fail.

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cybereye Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

If GM fail. I just hope that foreign countries don’t buy the volt and eflex system. The volt and eflex should stay in US and spread around the globe by another US company.

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N Riley Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

I agree we are a capitalist society and companies should survive or fail on their on accord, normally. But, this is a very special situation with very dire consequences for all of America. GM, Ford and Chrysler are not asking for a “hand-out” but a helping hand loan. I have concluded this is the best way to insure the survival of the Volt and the American auto industry. They should get the loan, but with each getting up to $25 billion to get them through 2009 and hopefully 2010. They must have plans to reduce cost and bring out more fuel efficient vehicles during that time period. GM should commit to getting the Cruze on our streets in early 2010. Ford should commit to getting hybrid version of the Fusion on the road in 2009 or early 2010. Ford can do this because their hybrid program is well advanced. Chrysler should commit to producing more vehicles over 30 mpg and developing or licensing Ford’s hybrid technology by 2010. If Chrysler can not come forward with development plans that can meet definite goals, they should negotiate purchase terms with GM and complete that step by early 2010.

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an_outsider Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Imho, GM should grab their share of the $25B dedicated to retool a large capacity plant (not handcraft prototype) and start SELL “not lease” worldwide their EV1-NimH until the hybrid Volt ready for its prime time…. It will not save GM by itself but it may be a first step in the right direction.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

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john1701a Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

What is Volt?

Consider the other extreme. The rollout is so successful that other automakers begin to offer their own “Volt” vehicles. Then as a response from GM years later, a major upgrade is produced.

In other words, what makes this particular SERIES hybrid a Volt? Must it be a compact car that specifically targets the 40-mile range? At what point is the difference too much to call it “Volt” anymore?

And of course, it is pretty much inevitable that other configurations are now given serious consideration… especially the smaller battery-pack.

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Dave G Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 11:04 pm

If GM fails, cars like the Volt may be delayed for a long time.

1) The Volt will be known as the car that helped bring GM down.

2) Japanese companies have not embraced series hybrids. They say the battery technology is not ready. Japanese companies also tend to shy away from revolutionary new designs. They prefer evolutionary innovation.

3) Ford’s CEO says they are not developing plug-ins, but rather trying to make gas engines more efficient.

4) Chrysler was starting to fail before the financial crisis. Their best hope was to get bought by GM.

5) European car manufacturers have some concept cars, but no plug-in production plans.

6) Tesla has changed their plans for their third $30K model to be all electric.

Who will make a series hybrid?

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Jim I Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

My only problems with all of these loans or bailout money requests:

1. Is there anyway to get serious re-negotiation of terms with the UAW now, or does all this have to wait until 2010, when the new contract terms go into effect?

2. Will managment at all levels agree to major changes in their compensation and benefit packages immediately, or is this just a stop gap funding measure, so they can cash out before the end hits?

3. Are there any plans being discussed to change existing state and federal laws that prohibit the elimination of dealerships, and what effect this might have on GM, should they decide to close some of their existing divisions?

4. What new models, or changes to existing models can any of the manufacturers make now to stimulate consumers to purchase new vehicles?

If not, then what exactly can GM do to get “viable” in a timeframe that will keep them in business or get them profitable and back on solid ground?

They can’t just expect us to fund them without change until 2011, when the Cruze and Volt finally make it to market!!! And then, with such a low stated production volume for the first year’s run of the Volt, how will this provide any real income to change the financial situation of the corporation?

And this is just GM. How about Ford, and Chrysler?

How are we supposed to give any kind of opinion, when we have no real information to form that opinion. We are being asked to make a knee jerk decision, based on “jobs lost” or “national pride”, which is not a really good reason to put our future generations into so much debt from which they can never recover…………………

I am just one guy from Youngstown, Ohio. But if I can come up with these questions, why aren’t they being asked by the people that are supposed to be looking out for best interests?

It is all very scary!

I apologize in advance if I ruined anyone’s Thanksgiving…

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JBFALASKA Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:17 am

Humbly, one can assert Capitalism isn’t how this country works. It’s who is in charge. While in the military, retired only recently, a great many of us watched a multi-billion dollar bailout before bailouts were in vogue. The bailout of Halliburton following the invasion of Iraq happened with little fanfare to the public masked by the War. Sole source (no competition), few questions asked contracts totalling billions of dollars to Halliburton after strong protests from the Federal Contracting civil servants. Once the money moved overseas, great sums disappeared.

We can certainly help a company that helps the majority of Americans rather than the few, well connected. GM is a legendary contributor to what made this country great. The Chevy Volt will be a historic departure from our oil addiction, the cause of War and a great funing source for most terrorism in the world today.

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Michael D Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:41 am

#7 Dave G

If GM fails, there will be others that will make the plug in electric.

1. Toyota wants to make a plug in Prius – only 7 miles, but that may improve later

2. Fisker Automotive is scheduled to produce the Karma in 2009. Yes, it is $80K but it is a plug in serial electric

3. Aptera is taking deposits for their cars in California

4. If the technology is viable, other car makers will do so also.

5. If the American people REALLY want GM to survive in it’s current form, they should go out today and buy a GM vehicle. (If one out of every 240 people in the US did that, there is GM’s 25 billion)

6. The alternative is to ask every man, woman and child in the US to pony up $83.00 and get nothing in return except for the warm feeling of helping GM out! (if the Congress wants to do bailouts, I think every patriotic American would expect to receive a bill from the IRS for their equal share) In, fact, just cut out the government middle-man and just send GM your share now! For those interested in this option, the corporate office address is:

General Motors Corporation – Corporate Offices
100 Renaissance Ctr
Detroit, MI 43232

7. The Volt would not be known for bringing down GM, (if it were to fail). The UAW would get that award!

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wwskinn3 Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:45 am

Top CEO’ s have already said no to salary reductions. I still think they believe they are too important for Congress to let them fail. Let’s see – Packard went down – Studebaker and Hudson went down – American Motors went down – along with numerous other auto makers over the years and the country still survived. I don’t think that Ford will go down but GM and Chrysler might. If they do then I’ll just buy a Toyota and go about business as usual. I paid them very well for the products I’ve bought over the years at the price they asked – if they mismanaged the money then they should go down as well. This has always been the American Way.

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DonC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:46 am

#8 Jim

1. The UAW has just given a lot of concessions when opening the contracts mid-term. As part of the current situation It has agreed to do away with the jobs bank. I wouldn’t expect any more.

2. White collar workers have been hit very hard, most recently with the elimination of the 401k match. Top management needs to make some sacrifices and I expect they will. If not they will have problems.

3. Eliminating state laws involves a host of issues, not the least are those of federalism. I doubt you’ll see anything on this front.

4. The current lineup is more or less baked into the cake.

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DonC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:02 am

#10 Michael D – “The alternative is to ask every man, woman and child in the US to pony up $83.00 and get nothing in return except for the warm feeling of helping GM out!”

This is a complete mis-statement of what would happen. First, the federal government is not asking taxpayers to “pony up” any money at all. The federal government is going to borrow the money at a low rates and then lend it to GM at a much higher rate. If you don’t want to loan the government money, you don’t have to. Your choice.

Yes if GM fails the taxpayers will then have to pony up but that’s not a likely outcome. On the other hand, taxpayers pony up every year to send $10B/month down the rat hole we call Iraq. And those funds are, as they say, lost and gone forever. Better to have Volts for $25B than to to spend another two trillion dollars protecting our oil supplies.

Moreover a realistic cost-benefit analysis has to consider the costs to the taxpayers of not making the loan. Keep in mind that if the Detroit auto makers fail then the taxpayers will have to pick up the pensions. That would cost a whole lot more than the loans. Plus there is the foregone taxes that would have been collected had the country not lost 3.5M well paying jobs. (Not much sense in spending $700B to create 2.1M jobs and not spending $25B to save 3.5M jobs). Then add to the costs unemployment benefits and educational retraining. You can go on and on. Even assuming that the loans are ultimately not repaid, and that several years down the road GM does go out of business, the time value of money probably makes the loans worth it.

So it’s not really a choice of spending $25B or not. It’s a choice between spending $25B or a lot more.

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Unni Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:35 am

OPEN VOLT – Thatz a nice thought

Lets follow Linux model combined with IETF model (hybrid).

TARP/Other funding money goes to NASA or some good agency ( NASA because it can use space technology for use of men and VOLT for space exploration) . All Specifications and designs come from Central agency for the platform. Its like Linux kernel. Then any vehicle manufacturer can make Volt ( like Toyota Volt v 1.2 , Honda Volt 6 , Hyundai Volt ABC etc ). They have to follow the OPEN VOLT specifications and they can design there own body according to aerodynamics . Same with Interior etc where the specs will not be tight on and allow creativity ( this is like distributions in Linux ).

All good practices will be taken back to Central agency and will be done like IETF drafts or Jabber XEPs or Java JSRs. It will go through review and tests and the ones which qualifies comes out as specifications and gets into new version of OPEN VOLT specifications – something like RFC. As this is a proved model in computers ( the IETF and RFC ) , we can use the same concepts for OPEN VOLT.

So when we buy a VOLT get the list of specifications it follows and we have the freedom to choose vendor on core components – ex: battery, Generator, Electric Engine etc – and Specifics (non core specifications parts) from my distributor ( ex: Honda , Toyota etc ).

Put your votes on the OPEN VOLT !!
Lets write open letter to Obama as this idea is going to be saving our future and no distributor ask for money in future.

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Michael D Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:49 am

#13 Don

If the feds are not asking the taxpayer for any funds, why is congress asking for the $25 billion!

If investing in GM is such a good deal at such high interest rates, why don’t we ask citizens to invest in GM Bonds at these high rates and let the citizens get the high interest rate on their money instead of us lending it to the feds and the feds lending it out! (cut out the middle-man!) As yet, I have not heard that congress is asking for the issuance of GM bonds for funding this project (maybe I missed that in the news reports I have read)

By the way, since the government gets it’s money from it’s citizens through taxes or/and in selling treasury bonds, it does seem likely that they are actually asking us to “pony up” or otherwise put in the bucks!

As for Iraq, I agree that if we were all billed monthly for the excess expendature (over that which we already spend for our servicemen and women) we would be out of there much sooner!

If auto makers fail, why would the government have to pick up the pensions? Yes, the retirees would have to live on their Social Security payments for which they contributed during their employ, but so do most of the retirees!

3.5 M jobs would not be lost. Even if the automakers did not come out of reorgnization, most of those would be employed by the firms that buy the factories and lines of those automakers.

One more thing . . . Not much sense in spending $700Billion to create 2.1Million jobs anyway. A simple division tells me that that is $333,333.33 per job. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that is not a great way to spend money. ( Please let me know where to apply for this great job!)

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Texas Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:54 am

If GM goes down and nobody picks up the Volt and continues to run towards the goal then it will be because smart people have taken a serious look at it’s current state and decided that it’s not a viable solution. From it’s high cost, problems with the battery warrantee, etc. Of course if Exxon buys the Volt and kills it then the conspiracy theorists will have another field day.

The electrification of the automobile is coming. The better question is if GM gets bailed out and does not reorganize will they be able to do the Volt justice. Will they have the strength and commitment to see it into that hands of waiting customers? That’s the real question. Will the union constraints including where and how it’s produced make the cost too high? These are the questions people should be asking.

I’m not worried about the Volt anymore. It’s just about free. The designs for both the car and the manufacturing line are almost complete.

I want the Volt to be in good hands. I want to see a viable plug-in hybrid out there that people can use and love. I also feel there are now enough people out there that want the same thing. If not the Volt then for something similar.

Personally, I just want a good electric car. If the infrastructure is not ready for quick-charging then I want a tiny (and I mean tiny) limp-home generator to get me to the next charging station.

I don’t care about supper fast 0-60 times or 120 mph speeds while the ICE is running. I just want stop using as much petroleum as practical.

Hey, if I can have great style and performance WHILE USING ONLY ELECTRICITY then great! Twenty or forty miles of heaven-like electric performance would be outstanding and open up the market substantially. If I then have to drive like grandma until I’m charged up again then so be it. We have a serious energy problem in America. If I have to only ride a bike and take electric trains then I’ll do it. It’s time to live within our means and burning petroleum like there’s no tomorrow is just irresponsible.

The Volt will be fine, unless its not practical or its too dangerous (that’s for the conspiracy theorists). Hummm. What if the entire economic collapse was engineered by big oil to bring down GM and the Volt. I bet someone is already sharpening up their pencils to write such a book.

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Luke Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:30 am

Q: What Would Happen to the Chevy Volt if GM Failed?
A: Toyota, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Aptera, Zap, Miles, Tesla, or BMW/Mini/PML FlightLink would sell me a plugin hybrid in 2014, and I’d get on with life. In the meantime, I’ll keep riding my bicycle to work, and keep my Ford Ranger running for hauling heavy objects.

(My Ranger looks like it will last a lot longer, now that I’ve moved to within biking distance of work. I don’t really drive it anymore. It has descended into beater-status, but brand-new compact pickup trucks don’t seem to improve on the design at-all. If I want to make my 1998 ranger look new, I’ll wash it and have a couple of dings fixed at the bodyshop. An E-Flex pickup would be enough of an improvement to get me to open my wallet, though! )

I really want to see the Volt succeed, but since I’ve already greened my lifestyle and protected myself from a volatile economy in other ways, the Volt is no longer a make-or-break technology for me personally.

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cybereye Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 3:01 am

Unni @14

That idea is on the way when the volt is out, just like ICE cars as today. There many user modification to thier ICE cars. I’m sure there is going to be lots of aftermarket as well for the volt. The cars companies will have thier own idea. The cars companies will make many different model for users to buy. It had been OPEN ICE cars in the past 100 years.

Unni said,”Lets write open letter to Obama as this idea is going to be saving our future and no distributor ask for money in future.”

Keep the goverment away from OPEN VIEW (Linux model) control my view of how it should be run. Unni should stop look up to the goverment and start finding a common goal to work with.

In hardware, It will never be free cause of hard labor involved. In software or put an idea on paper can be free cause it a goal to follow that system to make it happen. If everyone follow that idea then there is no cost to anyone and every one would get it free.

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Ed M Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 3:26 am

Luke 17
If GM fails to secure financing, say hello to the Toyota or Honda Volt in 2012. Of course their Volt will look like a Prius or a Fit,

You can always get yourself an electric bike.

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joe obrien Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 3:43 am

Ford should get nothing as they have NO plans for alterntive fueled vehicles, just the same petroleum burning machines of te last 100 years, aka, not evolving.Let them die off.

Chrysler has no real plans other than cheap Volt clones which are just shells to ride on the Volt’s coattails, and they primarily only build gas guzzling trucks. Let them fail, they are not evolving.

GM, has had ev’s in the past, and in their greed, and shortsidedness, crushed them in favor of the Humvee, at least they are making a real effort with the Volt. Something away from petroleum finally, give them the loan, and make them use ALL of it to produce this game changing vehicle, and specifically forbid them from blowing the money on blinged Escalades, Corvettes, & camaros we don’t really need.

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Darius Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 5:01 am

Volvo was Ford’s brand for recent 10 years. They officialy marketing Volvo ReCharge claiming its arrival “very soon”. I don’t know what “very soon” means. But it might be no less than 4 years from now.

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Koz Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:01 am

To loan or not to loan? Unfortunately that is still the question.

GM should have come prepared and contrite. Instead they were unprepared and arrogant. They pumped up their size and importance leading up to the meetings with congress. Their CEO, the other Big 3 CEOs, and the UAW chief arrived in Washington with a gun to their head saying gives us the money or we’ll shoot ourselves. Thankfully, we did not cow to this extortion and the bafoons were sent packing. The government is in the stronger position here and they might even know it. We’ll find out next week if the Big 3 and UAW have learned enough humility. They need to present plans to do everything reasonably possible to position their companies and workforce to compete in the global marketplace. The union and management need to show substantive and philosophical progress toward unifying their goals. They cannot continue in solely juxtiposed positions or they will always fall into uncompetitiveness in the global market. As also mentioned, management needs to show leadership and share the cuts with the rest of their workforce. A well motivated workforce will be worth a lot more to those companies and managers in the long run then the short terms comensation sacrifices. Suppliers must share in the sacrifiing. Agreements outside of bankruptcy will be a lot better than what they can expect from C11. This is a new one for my prescription but the dealers need to participate as well.

The automakers should reach an agreement with their dealers allowing them to reach purchasing agreements online with consumers through a web portal. The agreements would be finalized at the dealerships. The process could be like Ebay + Priceline.

The Volt without GM is not a certainty. It is intertwined with the UAW, facilities, and components. Certainly pieces of GMs empire with be absorbed by other automanufacturers or deep pocketed participants but there are no guarantees or likelihoods. The process would be lengthy, costly, and burdensome without goverment intervention (a la Bear Stearns). EV’s are definitely coming in more practical forms and other EREVs and plug-ins are likely too. The concern I have is that none of them have been shown with enough detail to convince me they have anywhere near the potential impact that the Volt does. I think a GM failure with no Volt will be a 5 year set back and even with the Volt going forward would be at least a 2 year set back.

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ZAP Alias Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:01 am

The Volt does not seem likely to fail, simply because there is too much interest in alternative fuel vehicles right now; especially EVs. The Volt will therefore succeed and probably beyond expectations even.

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BillR Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:42 am

Quite simply, the Volt is the future of automotive transportation.

If GM fails, I would expect some of the GM executives and engineers, along with some of the prominent Vulture Capital firms, to buy the Volt program and continue as a separate company. There is a lot of interest in alternate energy in the investment community right now.

This may affect the design and schedule for the Volt, but it and other E-Rev’s will make it to market.

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Van Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:47 am

What if GM should “fail.” What does “fail” mean. GM has already failed to make a profit? Does it mean go into bankruptcy? If so, say so. The use of vague terms seems an effort at misinformation, making war on the tax payers.

I see poorly run banks being taken over by better run banks. Why not have Honda buy Ford. Then they could re-introduce the Taurus as the Fonda Five Hundred. Toyota could buy GM and re-introduce the Malibu Hybrid as the Prius Loteck. Ok, so you do not think renaming and rebadging outdated vehicles is the answer. So are you going to like a viability plan that retains the same leadership and marketing plan?

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well Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:50 am

I think GM, after ignoring hybrids for years, tried to make a moon-shot with a vehicle which has 40 miles ranges without anything in between. It was probably a better approach to start earlier, like Toyota, and then gradually improve their products. Maybe a vehicle with 15 miles range first, later 20, etc. It is probably true that GM’s decision to produce the Volt has also influenced Toyota to produce a Prius plug-in. Now it’s bad luck that the financial crisis came in between, but if there is not a Volt, there will be probably other cars coming, only later than 2010.

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jabroni Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:50 am

I think Dr. Cole has his rose color glasses on. While I agree that the Volt is an enormously important vehicle, I am not convinced that any other company would want to take it on. We are in the midst of an economic fallout where credit is shriveling up, businesses are failing and people are losing jobs. To complicate matters, people are spending less simply to make ends meet and hanging on to what they have in an attempt to ride out this storm.

Even with our $7500 dollar tax credit, a $40,000 four-seat passenger car is not going to make sense for 80 percent or so of the population. In other words, what other car company is going to want to continue the Volt? I just don’t see it and we have really got to root GM on to victory.

http://oilfreenow.blogspot.com

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Eco Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:06 am

I hope that the three elephantine companies come up with a plan, because they will get their bailout. Bank on that.

But that plan will be a re-hash of days gone by.

The entire business model of factory-dealership-chump buyer-dealer warranty- aftermarket parts and service-junkyard is what has died, but no one in the industry will admit it.

Here is my multi-point business plan. What it contains is meaningless, I’m posting it to illustrate the degree to which the industry model must change to match the rest of the economy.

1. All three become one company, one overall brand.

2. Financing done through the company comes with a maintenance contract that includes service “insurance” with co-pay. Every time I bring it in, I pay the co-pay, they pay the rest. Co-pay stays the same for the life of the car. Bigger downpayment gets you a smaller co pay.

3. If I break down on the road, their network of dealers sends a vehicle to me to drive until they can deliver mine back, for a single co-pay.

4. Every year you have an option to upgrade to the same car, newer model, for a modest price. Price goes up each year you do not upgrade for 5 years. After that you are guaranteed 10 percent of your original purchase price as a downpayment for a new one, until it’s 10 years old.

5. Vacation car – Park your car at the network, and for same time period you can get a different vehicle for up to two weeks (example) unlimited mileage, one time per year. Need an SUV or minivan for vacation? Need a beat-up pickup to move your kid to college? Need a compact to cross the country? Comes with your service contract.

6. Change car not oil. Sign a five year service contract, every 5,000 miles, trade in your car for something else. Has to be used, but anything you want. But you have to pay the dealer to detail it when you turn it in.

7. Volt Motors – In ten years, every single car we make will be E-REV, or fuel cell. In the tenth year, we change our name to Volt.

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Mitch Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:22 am

FER DRYIN OUT LOUD…

can we just drop the whole “it has been flogged to death, shredded, formed into glue and used up completely in your childrens school project ” horse of the EV1?

Did they-yes
was it smart – no
was it right – ?
is it relevant – not really
is it 100% GM’s fault – NO
why don’t they just redo it – cuz as a family car it sucked
” ” ” ” ” ” – cuz there are issues
” ” ” ” ” ” – more limited market than an EREV

PLease///drop it…yes GM can learn from it..and they are using that knowledge in the VOLT.

there may have been 1000’s who would have bought the EV-1.but these same people would have been the 1st in the courthouse is something had happened, the first to sue if it was unrepairable in the first year. the first to sue for any friggin reason.

I work in manufacturing (not outo), you do not sell a PROTOTYPE, you lease them, and bring them back. None get left with the public.

EVERYONE of you that insist on swelling in the past, are the same ones that GM builds crap..drop the leg warmers, parachute pants, mood rings what have you at the charity store and welcome to the next friggin millenium..its 2008, you complain that GM is still inthe same old mold..so (it seems) are you…I believe GM is changing…but all you see is Hummers and crushed EV-1’s.

I am entwined with the auto industry, CH 11 is an armchair quarterback vision, the NA auto industry is tied to national security, community, health care, medicare, more than 5 million jobs via employment, retirees and suppliers, indirectly to stores, restaurant and tourist destinations, and airlines where these people spend $

CNN did a story about 9/11 Do you know that GM, FORD and CHRYSLER matched employee donations to the tune of $10,000,000.00. Only Volkswagon and Nissan contributed from ANY foreign manufacturer even though they have operations here. and these are matching contributions, meaning employees also donated as much…

you think its bad now? you think it will be short term if the NA 3 go CH 11?

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Whining over 25 billion, when the financial institutions that took bailout bucks and spent in excess of that on CEO pay and larks…and for what?

remember the past, learn from it..but quit draggin it up like a woman in an aurgument. You know the type…dragging up crap from 10 years ago, that is similar to the current aurgument but really bears no relation?

Vent over…we now return to our regularly scheduled topic…

Hope my American neighbors enjoyed their holiday..

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Shawn Marshall Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:23 am

Gasoline is $1.45 per gallon in Roanoke VA.

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Van Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Is it true that drug dealers give away their products to establish a clientele? They can charge whatever they please for gas, we have no alternative. Bring on PHEVs.

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Texas Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:47 am

Yes, the price of oil is very cheap right now. That means less investment in future oil projects as well as less motivation to develop alternatives. That means less oil supply down the road and no good options to turn to. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

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Joe Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:11 am

Sure hope GM, Ford and Chrysler can last until Obama takes over.Bush does not know the importance of keeping our auto industry.

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Dave G Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:23 am

#10 Michael D Says: “6. The alternative is to ask every man, woman and child in the US to pony up $83.00 and get nothing in return except for the warm feeling of helping GM out!”
————————————————————————————–
This is not quite right. The bailout options being considered now are:
1) A bridge loan
2) Buying GM preferred stock
so either way, the public gets something in return, assuming GM stays in business.

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cybereye Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:27 am

Texas@32
You are correct about your oil view in the short term play. The next play in a few year will be inflation and lack of oil supplies. I can see that reaching over 150 oil per barrel.I hope I could get the volt before that happen.

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alex_md Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:28 am

I think Ford should get the money (all of it), not GM or Chrysler. As a part of the deal they will agree to develop and put on the roads Plug-in Escape Hybrid and Plug-in Fusion Hybrid by the end of 2009, which will only need minor upgrade (new battery unit available from the Volt program). It is totally ok that both cars will get only 10-15 miles all electric, the future versions will do better. The Volt unit should be separated from GM and become an independent government funded program. Volt developer will not see a penny of profits for the next 5-10 years, so I don’t think private sector will be able to fund it the proper way in its current state even with big loans. After that the platform can be licensed to any interested automaker.

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Dave G Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:43 am

#28 Eco Says: “1. All three become one company, one overall brand.”
————————————————————————————–
That’s not too far off.

GM and Chrysler will most likely become one company, and the number of brands will be significantly reduced. GM and Chrysler were already planning these moves before the banking industry failed. Now, without any available credit from the banking industry, there is no way to finalize and execute these plans without government loans.

Ford is in relatively good shape, so they will stay separate. Lincoln/Mercury is basically the same brand, so Ford has much less brand overhead. Ford has controlling interests in Mazda and Volvo, but these are separate companies that Ford could sell whole if times get tough.

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Luke Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:13 am

Ed @ 19,

If GM fails to secure financing, say hello to the Toyota or Honda Volt in 2012. Of course their Volt will look like a Prius or a Fit,

I don’t understand where you’re going with this. What’s your point? I like the way the Prius and the Fit look.

My live-in girlfriend owns a Prius. It’s a nice-looking and nice-driving car with 95k miles on it and no major maintenance headaches — which is very impressive, considering how much mechanical magic must be happening inside the transmission. While I’d prefer to buy new technology from an American company, I’ve had great experiences with Japanese-designed cars.

My experience with Volkswagen has been poor, and the Fords I’ve owned have been middling. The 1989 Tempo was crap — changing the serpentine belt officially required an engine-hoist, the constant history of exhaust problems meant that I kept a carbon-monoxide detector displayed prominently on the dashboard, and my female friends eventually started refusing to ride in it. The 1998 Ranger is starting to earn my respect at the 175k-miles mark. The parts on the Ranger wear out a lot faster than they do on the Honda Accords and Civics that are in the family, but they can take more abuse before they wear out. I also spent $2k tracking down electrical malfs on the Ranger at around 100k that turned out to be the result of a noisy aftermarket alternator from Advance Auto Parts — how hard would it have been for Ford to put a noise-filter on the power line, like the Chinese manufacturer of my laptop did? Also, the black-box nature of the Ford ECU frustrates me.) It’s worth mentioning that the customer service at Toyota dealerships is universally Exceptional — and I’ve worked with several of them. The folks at the Ford dealers that I’ve been to try to do a good job within the system that they have, but the Toyota folks are a lot more flexible and more likely to volunteer to take care of little things under warranty on an 80k-mile car.

So, I’ve owned and assisted with owner-maintenance on a variety of cars and I just can’t see why someone wouldn’t consider foreign designs — especially given the global and intertwined nature of the car business. Of course, the right vehicle-choice choice depends entirely on what you expect do with the car — but nobody in my family does much towing or does much driving on unimproved roads, so small foreign cars like the Accord, Civic, and Prius often have better gas-mileage and a more “grownup-oriented” interior than, say, a Focus or a Cobalt. Almost nobody in my family wants a TrailBlazer/Suburban or an Explorer/Expedition (except maybe my stepsister who drives a Durango) — they just don’t match our needs.

So, I guess you like the cosmetics of American cars? That’s great! To each his own, but I just don’t understand the “that 2012 Toyota might not be an American car” subtext of your comment. A car is just a household appliance to me — it’s not a hand-stitched American flag.

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:18 am

Once upon a time (4 months ago) I would have said someone else picks up the reins on the Volt.

Now, if GM went under, the Volt goes too, no question. Naturally the economic conditions play into that factor a lot more than it did…but demogrpahics will be why no one would pick it up….even if they got past the economic situation.

The main issue to the Volt if GM goes under has already happened, it is when the Cruze got put on ‘hiatus’ in NA (well ‘moved back’ 6 months), that basically meant everything has stopped until at least the spring on the Volt platform in NA.

Hypothetically speaking, if GM does not get the funding from the US, it goes under in about 3-4 weeks and sold off. Therefore the Volt has to die as well, because if it were to surivie, it would now have to be cobbled together with pieces of the Euro Cruze program/suppliers, added to the base of operations in Michigan for the Volt tech…with the specific engine to be built in Flint.

In other words, it is already a logistical nightmare for GM to get the Volt out in November 2010 thanks to the 6 month Cruze delay. (And all the added costs of importing from Euro on early models) In bankruptcy it would be this monsterous web of components and suppliers spread all over the world. (Especially considering the insurance backing of suppliers in Europe is already pulled…many suppliers may already be divorcing themselves of their relationship with GM).

If GM goes, the Volt dies. Maybe the name is bought by someone else, but that is it. I think most of the major automakers would rather just forget about EVs in this environment and with gas at $50/barrel.

The only company I can still see taking it over is Exxon, they need a ‘green flag’ to wave in the face of BP. For them, dropping 3-4 billion to get this program running and take a loss on every car would be chalked up to ‘advertising/goodwill’ expense.

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Luke Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:21 am

And, yes, I can get quite excited about household appliances!

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Biodieseljeep Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am

GM Dirge Haiku

Bad seeds bare bad fruit
GM poorly run for years
Statik always right

There once was a shining spot, remember Camelot!

Buh-bye Volt, we hardly knew yee.

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old man Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:30 am

#29

AGRRE, I could easily live the rest of my life without ever hearing,seeing, or reading EV1 again. For the extreme majority of customers that car was not then or even now one that would be considered.
Hopefully in the forseeable future there will be fast charging stations in numbers like gas stations. But till then EV only will not be on most customers wish list.
Regarding the US car manufacturers going bankrupt. Remember trickle down economics works in good times, but during tough times that trickle turns into a torrent Flooding those at the bottom then pooling to engulf others in nonrelated industries at the bottom of their ladder. I believe the result could be way over 5 million unemployed.

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:42 am

Side note: Just for the record this was a hypothetical exercise. A what happens if…

For myself personally, short of Wagoner showing up buck naked and dancing on the table in front of the committee screaming the plan for GM’s survival is to sell naked pictures of himself, GM gets this first bailout package.

I think by the time they receive the cash however, they will have to send most of it right back out immediately to pay for bills they are delaying now, forcing GM back to the gov’t by early March at the latest. (Probably see the same a**hat dance of ‘everything is ok’ from Wagoner right up until they have to report the quarterly numbers the first of February).

At that point I think Obama and the Dems sing a different tune about the ‘importance of GM’ to America when it is their political necks on the line. (and they realize that it will take REAL money to save GM and the rest of the 2.8) Then it gets interesting, then is when these ‘what if this happens’ scenario threads carry more weight.

/good or bad…exciting times ahead

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Tim Tom Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

For those on this site, publisher or contributor, viewer or editor who truly believe GM deserves to be saved. So please put your freaking money where you big mouth is and buy GM stocks today or buy more GM cars now. Stop asking for my money to go to GM. There are other cars plug-in already running in the world. The Th!nk City can be imported for about $20K.

The Volt will not bring profit surely for the next 4 years. So that by itself should be used as an argument to keep GM alive.

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DonC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

#16 Texas

One technical and one macro point to follow up on your post. The technical point is that the Volt, and any EV for that matter, uses less gasoline than a parallel hybrid such as a Prius, in large measure this is because cold starts. But the advantage overall is using 80% less gasoline. That’s huge and can’t really be achieved with improvements in an ICE.

The macro point is that electrifying transportation and reducing our reliance on oil is going to take money. A lot of money. Probably $150B per year. In this context worrying about $25B is a waste of time. No one is really willing to talk about a number like this but most people seriously dealing with the issue understand that the $15B proposed by Obama during the election is insufficient.

However, while a big number, it pales in comparison to what we pay to continue to depend on, and defend our access to, oil. Taking $150B from the defense budget and getting off foreign oil would end us making the US wealthier and safer.

#15 Michael D – “If auto makers fail, why would the government have to pick up the pensions?”

All pensions are guaranteed by the government (or the taxpayers if you prefer) in the form of the Pension Guaranteed Trust Corporation. When pension plans fail, which they do, the government foots the bill (retirees usually get less money but it’s still a big hit). Theoretically the Fund is supposedly self insured, but that’s a fiction as demonstrated by the fact that right now the Trust is deep in the red, and has been for years. It’s bill will will ultimately be covered by the taxpayers because the red ink is too deep and there isn’t any way going forward to increase the rates.

The mechanisms are different, but ditto for many health care costs.

As for your question about the $700B needed to create 2.1M jobs, that’s the estimate that has come out of the Obama transition team for the price tag on the rescue bill and its effect. It was widely reported last week in the news and seems non-controversial.

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Tim Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:25 pm

This is probably the best interview I have heard on what has caused the current fiancial problems explained in a very simple and straightforward manner. Here is everything we’ve been saying all summed up clearly in one place, including regulatory failure, who is to blame and why, and most importantly, the ONE THING THAT MUST BE DONE – RESTORE HONESTY:

Here’s the entire URL in case you want to copy it and send it to others (which I highly recommend, because even J6P (Joe Six Pack) can understand this)?:

http://www.netcastdaily.com/broadcast/fsn2008-1011-2.asx

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Dave G Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

#10 Michael D Says: “If GM fails, there will be others that will make the plug in electric.

1. Toyota wants to make a plug in Prius – only 7 miles, but that may improve later

2. Fisker Automotive is scheduled to produce the Karma in 2009. Yes, it is $80K but it is a plug in serial electric

3. Aptera is taking deposits for their cars in California

4. If the technology is viable, other car makers will do so also.”
————————————————————————————–
1) A plug-in Prius is interesting, but I think this will be a niche car, especially due to the inconvenience factor. With a plug-in Prius, plugging/unplugging the car every day will be an addition to regular trips to the gas station. With the Volt, plugging/unplugging replaces regular trips to the gas station. In other words, I don’t think 7 miles of range will be worth the bother of dealing with the plug for most people.

2) Fisker is slated to make maybe 1000 cars per year. There are 40 million cars in the U.S.. A drop in the ocean…

3) Aptera is also a boutique company. 3 wheels won’t work in snow and ice. This essentially restricts Aptera to Southern California.

4) Chrysler is in big trouble, worse than GM.

I don’t know of anyone else that has even announced a production series hybrid. The closest is the Volvo concept car, with vague talk of production possibilities around 2015.

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DonC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

#43 Statik – TARP can be used so they won’t have to go to Congress. These guys aren’t put off by big numbers and the numbers for this aren’t that big.

#44 Tim Tom – “Stop asking for my money to go to GM.”

Then let’s not worry. You can let the government spend your money on the war in Iraq and I’ll let the government spend my money on GM. That way we can both be happy.

What I find so interesting is how some people think it’s perfectly fine when others have to spend their tax dollars on things they want but are outraged when their tax dollars go to something they don’t like. Realistically, since smarter, more educated taxpayers tend to favor things like the bridge loans in question, Detroit would have no problem rounding up $25B. Piece of cake.

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old man Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:54 pm

#44
The only reason to protect the U S car companys is to maintain our manufacturing base. and our way of life.
I fail to see why it is so bad to spend $700.000,000,000.00 importing oil but O K to spend that and more importing cars.
There made here you say. Foreign companys assemble here to compete with our car manufacturers, Toyota is not here to compete with Volkswagon.

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john1701a Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Realistically, since smarter, more educated taxpayers tend to favor things like the bridge loans in question, Detroit would have no problem rounding up $25B. Piece of cake.
________________________________________

WHAT must (vehicle type & quantity) be delivered?

WHEN does the loan have to be paid back?

The fact that those questions still remain unswered is a major barrier to getting the money… far from a piece of cake.

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Lurtz Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:06 pm

The Volt isn’t a car yet, it’s a collection of patents.

If GM is forced into liquidation (Chap 11 is a one-way door for GM) those patents are presumably worth something, and these patents would be sold to pay off GM’s debts.

The oil companies have tons of cash and I assume they would be very interested in acquiring those patents.

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kent beuchert Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

What would happen during bankruptcy is not so easy to predict, but
if such an action does not relieve GM from its extortionary labor contracts, there is simply no earthly good reason for “saving” GM.
If those labor contracts were destroyed and made invalid, just as many of GM’s other contracts would be, then a real solution is at hand and there would be no problem getting financial backing, fromall sorts of places. Only a fool would bet money on any company weighed down by union contracts. Now let’s see what kind of fraudulent “solutions” or “plans” are advanced in order to placate the taxpayers. So far the pols have been claiming falsely that the
problem is “buildingh the wrong kind of cars” a totally nonsensical
claim for a company that couldn’t make a dime then, or now , building small fuel efficent vehicles, regardless of what the design was. Congress is neither capable or willing to place the blame on those high contribution unions workers . Wagoner and the others need to quit trying to finagle and come to grips with the real issues.
So far, I’ve heard zero straightforward talk out of those guys. This is a political waltz, and a meaningless one at that.

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Coach Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

GM stock

now $ 5.36

after bailout $ 15-20

in 2009 : $ 40

in 2010 : $ 80 ( in time for the release of Volt )

buy NOW.

the news of GM’s death is widely exaggerated !

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Mitch Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

#44 Tim tom.

Did … 1000 shares.

#49 Old man

“There made here you say. Foreign companys assemble here ..”

ABSOLUTELY correct..they ASSEMBLE here. Many parts are made in Japan, and shipped here to be assembled..oh definiitely some a made here too…but most are imported for assembly…

Engineered elsewhere.Motor built elsewhere…

Legacy costs also elsewhere, and not so nice as here..we have a middle class….

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Lurtz Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:50 pm

#44 Tim Tom: You’ve got it backward. People who own stock are certainly going to support federal loans (…no one is expecting FREE MONEY).

#45 Don C: “All pensions are guaranteed by the government (or the taxpayers if you prefer) in the form of the Pension Guaranteed Trust Corporation.”

Nitpick: it’s the “Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation”
http://www.pbgc.gov/. Sorry to nitpick your otherwise very correct point…

#39 Statik
You’re in fantasyland if you think Exxon would build a car to green-up their image. They’d just buy the patents, and sit on them until expiration.

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Len Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:55 pm

People keep talking about this bridge loan like it won’t be lost money. GM was headed for bankrupsy and if they can’t alter their situation because of contracts or laws, then after they burn through this money they will be looking at bankrupsy again. I sure hope congress asking for a viable plan is not a fig leaf and they really look at the plan. I don’t see how GM can get viable without a bankrupsy. In bankrupsy the government could make the loan for restructuring and be sure the plan at least had a chance.

Of the three auto makers Ford appears to be best situated to make it. Maybe they will pick up the Volt.

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Gordon Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

If GM fails to survive and the VOLT dies with it, let us all turn our eyes to a really fun alternative: Electric COBRA !!

http://www.hstintl.com/index.php?menu=1&submenu=12

I saw this one on SPEED Channel. Expensive? Yes. But maybe in volume the prices might drop a little. I just wish they had a Corvette conversion available.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

#13 DonC

How many times are you going to keep saying that bailouts are better than Iraq? That’s a straw man argument. How about neither.

It is not possible for anyone to count the costs/benefits. What are the costs when the Boeing workers see what happen at GM, and decide to push for too many benefits? What are the benefits to the economy when someone who used to put in a single bolt in a car, starts a new business or learns to write software? They can’t be quantified, and those who pretend to, do so with the desired conclusion in mind.

I believe gov’t should be guided by principles, not cost-benefit analysis. I could make a nice cost-benefit analysis on how warrants cost too much money, and how torturing someone is cheaper than the alternative. It’s clear that private industry is far far better and creating and assessing value than any gov’t. That’s a principle that applies to GM as well.

I’d trust a business to act in its own interests far before I trust a politician to act in mine.

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Dave B Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:07 pm

If GM files bankruptcy, I’m done with them…completely. Everyone that is lobbying for this clearly does not care for the employees, stockholders, and current customers. No chance I’d buy a vehicle now worrying about a bad warranty because of GM going belly-up. Come on people…think about reality. “Leaner, meaner, GM”? Please…try bigger handouts when all the creditors of GM get STIFFED. That woud truly suck.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

#48 DonC

since smarter, more educated taxpayers tend to favor things like the bridge loans in question, Detroit would have no problem rounding up $25B.

_____________________________________________________

So why don’t these smarter, more educated taxpayers go buy GM bonds themselves. And while they’re at it, it might be nice if they rethought the boxes with which they put people in.

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fred Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

I almost had something to say -
Empty comment- sorry

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User Name Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

I remember GM

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

#53 Coach

GM stocknow $ 5.36
after bailout $ 15-20

in 2009 : $ 40
in 2010 : $ 80 ( in time for the release of Volt )

buy NOW.
the news of GM’s death is widely exaggerated !
======================================

Seriously?

/it was so peaceful here for like…a week
—————
#55 Lurtz said, ” Statik #39, You’re in fantasyland if you think Exxon would build a car to green-up their image. They’d just buy the patents, and sit on them until expiration.”

Well I said it in a ‘big maybe’ type of way, if anyone took the Volt at all (not that they would actually do it)…what I meant by choosing them as a example was that it would likely be someone looking for the Volt as a symbol, moreso than someone trying to sell cars for profit. I personally, think the odd of anyone ‘picking up’ the Volt are ‘5 to 1′ish at best if GM goes under in this economic climate.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

#63 Statik

As an engineer in a product development environment, I agree that it would be very difficult for a separate organization to purchase the Volt. Buying another companies design of a complex product is difficult to do and fraught with difficulties. GM’s standard parts list is different from other companies, their manufacturing facilities have different tools and processes, their customer image is different.

If the Volt is as good as we believe it to be, others WILL copy the concepts though. The game-changing serial hybrid concept is out of the box and others can emulate it and indeed many have already begun. Of course if the naysayers are correct and the concept is too expensive, then it’ll be relegated to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

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Stew Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

If anyone missed the original broadcast, Saving General Motors is on at 1:00pm on CNBC.

Stew.

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

#64 Cautious Fan

I think we totally agree here. The name or tech behind it could be acquired but not likely the whole process.
=================================
#65 Stew said, “If anyone missed the original broadcast, Saving General Motors is on at 1:00pm on CNBC.
–
I seen it again last week, it is actually almost comical now, I’m surprised they still run it. Almost everything the featured GM exec’s where saying in it is comedy gold.

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wwskinn3 Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

Can’t see GM and Chrysler making it together. History shows that never have two companies that were financially strapped ever made it by merging. i.e; Nash & Hudson, Studebaker & Packard, and others. AMC even tried a deal with Ford by using a lot of their parts but this didn’t save them. Build a better car – quit paying salaries that are too high or be gone. For years the big three have essentially dictated what we buy. Now however, we other choices from other companies and Americans are flocking to them because they like their options better. That is the way it is.

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Calgaryvolt Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

I didn’t not read all the comments on here, only select ones.

I’m put this out there as an idea.

Part of GM’s current problem is the high cost of labour due to UAW contracts. The Volt is expected to be a high cost vehicle due to new technology but there is also the added cost of the higher labour.

Could GM potential spin themselves into a new entity solely for the purpose of developing the Volt and subsequent Volt derivatives? The reason I ask is because it may be advantageous is the Volt could be built as it’s own company seperate from UAW labour costs. If labour costs could be cut in half due to free market labour that could increase the success of the Volt.

I’m certain there are a lot of legal rammifications and contracts and what not but maybe the idea could be considered??? Maybe GM could take a controlling stake of an existing car company (something like Tesla or Zapp or Fisker or whomever) license the Volt technology to them and build the car in partnership but out of the hands of UAW labour.

Just a thought

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kdawg Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

The Volt is still full steam ahead at GM apparantly. As of this week, my company is currently bidding more & more Volt manufacturing projects. I’m sure whoever wins these projects (including my company) will ask for a large % of the $ up front though. Until the funds are released from Uncle Sam… no one is willing to risk starting a million $ project with no cash in hand.

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JEC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

#48 DonC
“Realistically, since smarter, more educated taxpayers tend to favor things like the bridge loans in question, Detroit would have no problem rounding up $25B. Piece of cake.”
—————————————————————————————————
I guess I fall under the dumb taxpayer category. Hmmm…I wonder if I could write that off on my 2008 taxes as some sort of disability?

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

What Would Happen to the Chevy Volt if GM Failed?

It would be bad. GM is leading the charge with a 40 mile EV range with no range anxiety because of the ICE.

Fisker and Tesla are niche cars because of the price. Neither will have an affordable car (or somewhat affordable car) by 2010-2011 time frame.

Toyota is an extremely tiny range of 7 miles which I don’t even think would have happened if the Volt wasn’t happening.

Aptera will only be sold in California.
The Aptera has “two plus one” seating allowing plenty of room for driver and passenger while an infant seat (newborn to age three) can be located in the middle behind the front seating. Neither of these are a plus.

The Volt is scheduled to debut in 2010-2011 and in many places around the country for perhaps $40K and a 40 mile EV with a reported 50 MPG after that. Who else has this?

The Volt will meet most driver’s driving habits without using gasoline.
It would be bad to see it go.

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kdawg Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

#68 Calgaryvolt

———-

Interesting idea. I wanna say some of the big 3 have done this. I’m not sure which car by Chysler, is built almost 100% by a non-union 3rd party, and then Chysler basically pays a union guy to put a sticker on it.

let me see if I can find any more info on this.

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RB Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:45 pm

$4 N. Riley said
“I agree we are a capitalist society and companies should survive or fail on their on accord, normally. But, this is a very special situation with very dire consequences for all of America. GM, Ford and Chrysler are not asking for a “hand-out” but a helping hand loan. I have concluded this is the best way to insure the survival of the Volt and the American auto industry. They should get the loan, but with each getting up to $25 billion to get them through 2009 and hopefully 2010″.
===========================

I agree. The question is what to do when they come back for more in a few months.

Do it again? Say “no more”? Say “one more time”?

We keep in mind that we are mainly bailing out the people who have loaned money to GM, to whom payment is now due.

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Anthony BC Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

It’s too late now, the cat’s out of the bag on the electric car technology. There are too many startup companies now on the go.

Let’s all just sit back and see what happens in the next coming months, since we can’t do a thing about it!

The VOLT will live on past GM if they can’t get their act together.

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john1701a Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 5:40 pm

Toyota is an extremely tiny range of 7 miles which I don’t even think would have happened if the Volt wasn’t happening.
_______________________________

That’s very misleading, perhaps a sign that failure is closer than…

One of the early prototypes vehicles was equipped that way to acclerate the testing process, since that capacity was already readily available. Toyota clearly stated they would venture on to higher capacity as time proceeded.

Of course, the concept of “range” is a red herring when compared FULL hybrids to SERIES anyway. Apples to Oranges. Hymotion has proven it.

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wwskinn3 Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

I say no bailout. If GM goes under then we can still buy a TOLT or a HOLT from Toyota or Honda later. If we want it – they will make it. They are simply waiting to see if we want it bad enough to pay for it.

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RB Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

What will happen IF —

First, I don’t think it will happen. It is much more likely that there will be government action of some kind, some conditions. GM is likely to change a lot no matter what.

But if it does—

1) Electric cars (battery only) will continue unchanged. The Mitsu will be a great success.

2) The EREV will be delayed, but in five more years someone else will introduce one. Perhaps that party will have bought or licensed GM’s patents.

If GM dissolves, no doubt it will be a setback to our interests here on gm-volt. But the big-scale forces pushing electric forward, such as independence from oil, will stay in place and push electric cars forward one way or another.

The limiting factor for electric cars has been the battery, which is now on the verge of a new dawn. The company that assembles the car around the battery does not have to be GM, though I hope it can.

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Dave G Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

#76 wwskinn3 Says: “If GM goes under then we can still buy a TOLT or a HOLT from Toyota or Honda later. If we want it – they will make it. They are simply waiting to see if we want it bad enough to pay for it.”
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We’ll, we’ve been wanting it for the last 18 months, and Toyota and Honda still have no plans for a series hybrid. Toyota is coming out with a weak plug-in parallel hybrid, and Honda is still fiddling around with fool sells.

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Dave K. Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

The first company which offers a 100 mph EV with an on board generator, at an affordable price, will be the winner.

A dozen car manufactures will eventually make the connection. GM is in the running , if…
___________________________________________

Two rivals are getting very close, but still carry a $50,000 sticker. A third offers a three wheeler priced at $40,000.

=D~

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:05 pm

The Truth About Cars just put up a article, um…chastising (to say it lightly) the GM-Volt thread about the government fleet of Volts being bought at a premium with no warranty:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/volt-birth-watch-117-gm-voltcom-swings-for-the-fences/

(I’ll C&P it here if you want to avoid the jump)

“This is what I get for taking a moment to check in at GM-Volt.com. The angry young Volt-lovers are freaking out about the possibility of GM not surviving until the Volt’s launch date, and the prospect of losing their beloved fetish object has folks in a “pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship” kind of mood. The emotional fervor that these people feel towards this nonexistant vehicle is such that their suggestions make handing a blank check to Detroit look like a good idea. The “GM-Volt.com Viability Plan Suggestion,” was put forward by semi-retired NASA engineer Phil Toney, and man is it a doozy. The plan boils down to congress legislating that the entire government fleet (600k+ vehicles) be replaced with, you guessed it, Chevy Volts. But that’s not all.

According to GM-Volt.com founder Lyle Dennis, these “Chevy Volts should be sold to the government at premium and without a battery warranty. Each vehicle should be sold at a profit. And in so doing, and assuming sufficient battery pack quantities can be produced, they could be released earlier than the November 2010 deadline” (emphasis in original). This suggestion has been forwarded to “the highest-ranking GM executives” Dennis has access to, because as he puts it, “since the government is already spending billions on bad assets, how about a few billion on good assets!” Except for the issues with GM rushing to even make the “late 2010″ launch date, and the fact that they’ll only be able to build 10k per year. And then there’s the tiny problem of the $30b (600k vehicles x $50k) taxpayer price tag for an unproven product. But by all means, follow Dennis’s advice and forward the plan to your elected representatives. They could probably use a good laugh right about now.”

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statik Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Other news:

The GM board of directors has finally almost enough of Wagoner and we get some public dissent…and low and behold Fritz’s name comes up as a successor (shocker, lol…file that under things that should have happened a year ago):

—————-
GM eyes debt swap; some directors sour on CEO: WSJ

NEW YORK (Reuters) – General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM – News) is pushing some bondholders to swap their debt for equity, as Chief Executive Rick Wagoner tries to keep the automaker out of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy that would likely cost him his job, The Wall Street Journal said late Friday, citing people familiar with the plan

GM’s board has also ratcheted up pressure on Wagoner in recent weeks, the newspaper said, citing several people familiar with the matter.

While George Fisher, the lead independent director, supports management, more than one-fourth of the automaker’s 14 directors have privately expressed frustration with Wagoner, the newspaper said, citing people close to the board. Topping the list of potential successors is Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson, the newspaper said, citing these people

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/081128/business_us_generalmotors.html?.v=1

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jkh2000 Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

Let Honda take over the VOlt and then we can be guaranteed that it will be built and built right. Let GM go bankrupt and eliminate the fat cat top dogs and then reorganize under Honda Motor Company. Hell GM can even deliver all the plans and parts to Honda in their HUMMERS. Shortsightedness must be a real disease in Detroit and it need to be rewarded with a slap.

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NZDavid Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

As I see it if GM fails, the Volt is dead, unless the entire Chevy line is kept going. I just don’t see anyone buying it though.

Of course, as collateral, for say, a 12B loan, the government would get to keep the Volt, and more importantly the drivetrain. At this point Chevy closes for two years while every line is reconfigured to produce E-REVS of various flavours, all initial sales to go to the govt as per nasaman, then, Chevy can be sold off by IPO. E-REV design can also be licensed to companies wishing to produce EV’s as per #14 Unni’s Linux model.

The 100B plus cost of this is cheaper than keeping the existing 2.8 going, and would be recouped in reduced oil imports.

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RB Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

$83 NZDavid –> The most valuable part of Chevy is the Silverado truck line. Hundreds of thousands sold every year and a committed customer base. So if Chevy survives, it has to include Silverado, Impala, Malibu, Cruze and Volt. All these can be highly profitable.

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Lurtz Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:20 pm

#44 Tim Tom: So please put your freaking money where you big mouth is and buy GM stocks today

Actually, those of us who bought GM in the last two weeks look like freakin’ geniuses now. But sell now, and incur a short-term gain in 2008 taxes, or hold it at least another year and buy a Volt with the gains?

#81 Statik (GM board encouraging creditors toward a debt-to-equity swap)

UAW healthcare contributions are a huge liability, even with the VEBA agreement (UAW takes over healthcare). Wouldn’t it be hilarious* if GM’s own workers ended up majority shareholders of GM?

*Hilarious in the Rush-Limbaugh-having-kittens sen

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carcus Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

Volt, or no Volt. GM or no GM. Neither of these is the true prize. The crown jewel signifying the right to rule into the next era of industrialization and personal transportation is the battery. Once the next generation of batteries have proven to be reliable and become available en masse at fair market, then big oil will fade into the past as electric powered transportation hurries us towards the future, and beyond.

/I’ve become verklempt. Talk amongst yourselves.

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wwskinn3 Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

The way I see it is that Toyota and Honda are just waiting to see if we’ll buy this thing at $40K or not. If they mass produce it then the batteries will go down a lot and then Toyota and Honda can put one out a lot cheaper. I suspect they are prepared and are just waiting to see if it will be worth their while or not before they sink their money into it. Except for the software all the info has been posted – motor size, ICE engine size, generator size, battery size and makers and info on the accessories. The rest shouldn’t be to hard for a good engineer to complete. We already know where all of it should be located. I don’t think they will have a lot of problem putting one together – wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t already have the plans drawn up for one. They may be playing it smart by letting GM sink their money on this so they can follow up with a cheaper model.

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Redeye Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

This recession is a vast conspiracy by Bush, Toyota, and Honda to punish the UAW and get rid of Chrysler, Ford and GM.

They are also in cahoots of course in the Violence in India as everyone knows.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:26 pm

#69 kdawg

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:29 pm

#69 kdawg

Best of luck to your company. Keep us informed when parts start getting awarded or if their is a hold-up. Thats good information on GM’s true intentions.

I seriously doubt GM would pay cash up front. Suppliers always are expected to shoulder some of the risks, including development costs. That’s how it works when your customer can multi-source the products.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 10:32 pm

#87 wwskinn3

Agreed. With the huge hit Volt has become, I’m sure the other companies are working on serial EREV’s. They can’t do it publicly though as this only serves to give more attention to the Volt since it will be out sooner. It also makes them look like followers rather then market leaders….try and sell that at the annual shareholders meeting.

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Jeff M Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

Sorry if I’m repeating myself, or what anyone else may have already said, but Lyle just keeps sounding like a broken record also repeating himself a dozen times so far?

Lyle mentions the problems with “chapter 11″ as he would like you to believe them. The problem with his “problems” is that both problems are solved by having the chapter 11 reorganization be government supported, which includes not only providing “loans” (if you actually believe they would be repaid) *after* going into chapter 11, but also guaranteeing warranties if for some reason GM is just never able to emerge from chapter 11.

As Lyle at least admits, chapter 11 would allow GM to “reorganize and re-emerge leaner and in better financial shape”. Just throwing money at a problem does NOT solve any of the systemic problems… it only delays the inevitable which is chapter 11 and all that money thrown pre-chapter 11 is wasted.

Also keep in mind that even if GM does not “fail” under Lyle’s hypothesis after throwing money at them, it’s also no assurance the Volt will be built… the economy is the biggest factor either way… if it continues to head toward global recession, “cheap” gas prices alone will making it very difficult to sell a $40k car that only seats 4… as well as likely be facing increasingly growing stiffer competition.

BEV’s, hybrids (like the Volt) or not, are coming whether or not GM ever produces the Volt. GM may have been early to announce, but as we know many more auto makers (both major, minor, and startups) are set to release BEV’s in the next 1 to 4 years.

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DaveP Says:
November 29th, 2008 at 1:50 am

I think if GM files for chapter 11, their creditors will simply not accept any monetary losses on a car company that could eventually become very profitable for them. They want the cash. Now.

I expect it likely they will sell the assets to the Chinese car companies. Rumor has it that the Chinese government has given the green light for their big car companies to pick up the pieces of GM and Chrysler (It may be a rumor, but it certainly makes sense. Who else would be interested in buying the American car companies? It has to be some sovereign with enough wealth to make it float in these financial times… What countries with cash want to break into the world car market? Certainly the Chinese government. Russia, maybe? Another Dubai/UAE deal?)
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/breaking-news-chinese-may-buy-gm-and-chrysler/

I expect most of that would mean shuttering the American operations and shipping cars from the Chinese-based joint ventures. Since GM hasn’t really ramped up anything volt-like in the Chinese joint ventures, sadly, I expect that is the end of the \Volt.

It’s not a tremendous surprise. Most car companies have been satisfied with the basic status quo for decades. None of them have shown any real interest in electric cars. I’d say only GM with the \Volt and maybe Renault/Nissan with Project Better Place funding. But that’s hardly world wide sales, more like custom fleet sales to a couple smallish countries.

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Shawn Marshall Says:
November 29th, 2008 at 10:22 am

Why wouldn’t some one from NASA expect the gummint to pay exorbitant prices for an unproven product? It is cultural.

GM can get some fancy lawyers to spin off some healthy units and leave the debt on the rest and get into Chapter 11 like many others have done or kiss it all good bye. Darned Statik has been calling it right all along but I’m still hoping for a Volt.

Over a waterfall in a barrel, that’s the feeling.

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drG Says:
November 29th, 2008 at 6:02 pm

What do you mean “if GM fails”?

Shouldn’t that be “when GM fails”?

With clowns like Red Ink Rick and Bob Lutz, GM has been in a steady nose dive.

Why are they still in charge?

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Rich Says:
November 30th, 2008 at 8:18 pm

Maybe there will be a Volt corporation that will rise from the ashes of GM.

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What Would Happen to the Chevy Volt if GM Failed?

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