AND 
Bob Lutz: Chevy Volt Update
L to R: Bob Lutz, Bob Kruse, Jon Lauckner, Andrew Farah
GM vice chairman and father of the Volt chose today to give us an online update on the object of our affection. on his blog.
He declined to get into financial matters but instead just gave us good clean Volt fun.
He noted that he had personally driven the newest vintage of Volt mules which have production-intent parts and are based on the Chevy Cruze, using the same global compact platofrm that the final Volt will have.
Lutz said GM is making “great progress” on Volt development.
He said in driving the Volt “the relative quiet and absence of vibration stand out,” he also noted the chassis integrity was “outstanding” and he was pleased with braking and steering.
He described going for a drive at 30 degrees for 19 miles when the generator kicked in, it was so “quiet and non-jarring” that he didn’t even notice it. Overall he drove it for 30 miles and “couldn’t be more pleased” with the powertrain and vehicle.
He mentioned that there was some cutting in and out of the engine at low sppeds but that further testing would lead to correcting that.
In the end he assured us that his team “will continue to work round the clock to further refine the Volt and get it on the road — and in your hands — year after next.”
Source (FastLane Blog)
209 Responses to “Bob Lutz: Chevy Volt Update”
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Great news, we’re still on track.
Lets not lose the momentum.
=D~~
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Kudos GM ! I believe in you guys for thsi amazing car.
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Hurry up Bob. The wolf’s at the door, in case you hadn’t noticed.
Dr. Dennis:
You are really on the case today. Three posts so far? I cannot for the life of me see how you do it. Thanks again.
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:50 pm
30 degrees and snow on the ground. Man, those guys must be freezing. GM brass must be tougher than we give them credit for!
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:50 pm
So if he’s not wearing the pink tie…does that mean the “BS” level is reduced or is it the inverse?
either way, nice to get back to Volt talking points….
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November 21st, 2008 at 3:52 pm
“By the way guys …. What do you think of my tie?”
Are they all looking at his tie?
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:13 pm
How can a small outfit in california build the Tesla & the big 3 can’t.. BAD MANAGEMENT !!! BY GM FORD & MOPAR
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Tesla-
Build a massively expensive low volume car is completely different than a mass production reasonable cost car. Also, all electric = much simpler design.
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:31 pm
It’s my impression that the Tesla works well but we won’t ever see 100,000 units a year coming off an assembly line. I’m also skeptical of seeing the price come down.
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I personally do not understand the purpose of using a gas engine when the battery charge runs low as it gets away from the whole purpose of the electric car and that is being green…..GM should use an compressed air system for the backup generator to make it completely green and the engine construction could then use much lighter and cheaper materials.
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:45 pm
GM should license this technology to all car manufacturers that want to use it, and make it affordable enough so that they would buy it. This would serve as a tremendous boost to EREV advancement. Ford and Chrysler would just have to focus on putting this technology inside their vehicles, and put lots of them in the market.
I am sure people would buy those vehicles, as opposed to what they are offering right now
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Tesla…
Hmmmm….
How many have they delivered?
I still think GM should do an aggressive takeover of Tesla and rape their technology and brand it GM.
Hmmm, what company does that???…… Microsoft?….lol
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Tesla: Who wants 7000+ laptop batteries in the trunk that require massive cooling, and will probably only last 5 years????
Big Bob Lutz is too old not to wear a coat in the winter!!!
As to the original post:
This is really good news. The car went 19 miles AER on a 60% charge at 30 degrees. It sounds to me like they are right on target.
I am so ready for this car…………
Just get through the financial troubles, so you can get the Volt into production!!!!
Go GM! Go GM Volt Team!!!
NPNS, and I really do mean it!
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:55 pm
The generator kicked on after 19 miles? Better keep working at it GM. You promised 40 miles before the generator kicked on.
I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and hope they wanted it to kick on quickly to see if they could notice any jarring.
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November 21st, 2008 at 4:59 pm
A 60% charge did 19 miles AER before the battery kicked in, Presumeably, the battery kicked in at 30% charge. That seems like 60% of available battery capacity produced less than 50% of the 40-mile AER. Uh-oh.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Why are the published specs for the volt so much less than
what pinin farina says their new electric will do. 153 miles on
a charge?
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:04 pm
The Volt seems to be plugging along, albeit at a seemingly snails pace. My concern is that your company will run out of money before you get it developed. And it is my personal opinion that your CEO Waggoner was ill prepared in his presentation before Congressional committees. In fact all 3 auto execs came across as being ill prepared. And the arrival in Washington DC in their corporate jets, to a meeting begging the American taxpayer for billions of bailout money, was an arrogant move. They appear to believe we owe it to them. Perhaps it is better to let them go bankrupt, and have Toyota buy out the Volt technology. At least we would get a properly engineered car delivered on time!
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:06 pm
#10 TUT — Please, spare us such patented nonsense. We want a real car, not a Rube Goldberg contraption.
#14 Brooks: I noted that 19-mile figure too, but in the absense of other information about the state of the battery when he drove it, I’m not sure if this warrants the conclusion that it had reached its depletion point. Maybe it had some miles on it before Lutz got behind the wheel. Maybe not. He noted further on that the genset kicked on and off periodically; maybe it kicked in prematurely at 19 miles. That’s what testing is all about — working out the bugs.
GM has shown every sign of making sure it over delivers …. now, if they can just can stay above water….
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Thanks for the update guys! And please, no PR debacles like the corporate jet trek with tin cup in hand!
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Interesting, good to see they are still actively working on this and not all in fear induced paralysis.
I’m glad to get updates, but as far as I can tell we have only moved from Malibu mules to Cruze mules a little under a year. They aren’t exactly setting any land speed recrods on development here. I’m sure as the thread says (even though the source link doesn’t) that there is a lot more ‘production-intent parts…but tick tock already.
Full production in 23 months now. I think they should have entire ‘production intent’ prototypes by now. (I’m still waiting on those media drives by last Easter).
At this point, either the Volt is coming out with almost zero real world fleet data, virtually untested or it is coming out late.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:15 pm
A VOLT post
Love hearing once again about my Future Car
NPNS
Go GM GO
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:22 pm
That 19 mile figure is pretty close (a bit above) the 40 mile AER goal.
If the gen kicks in at 30% charge; the AER mode is from 100%-30% or represents 70% of total battery capacity. If the battery was at 60% when they started driving it, they used 30% before the gen kicked in… 70/30 * 19 miles = 44.3 miles
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:23 pm
@Allen Davidson
Is the B0 going to make to the US? I saw it, it looks pretty cool. I sent them an email asking if it is US bound at any point but never got a response.
See specs: http://www.pininfarina.it/repository/Immagini/auto%20elettrica/BO%20pininfarina.pdf
They’re using the combo of battery and UltraCaps. Battery for the long haul, UltraCaps to suck up every little bit of regenerative braking and to cushion the blow on the batteries on acceleration.
Back to the Volt. Just curious, what is the HP rating on the ICE onboard? How much doe the generator kick out?
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
statik Says:
November 21st, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Interesting, good to see they are still actively working on this and not all in fear induced paralysis.
I’m glad to get updates, but as far as I can tell we have only moved from Malibu mules to Cruze mules a little under a year. They aren’t exactly setting any land speed recrods on development here.
########################################################################
In terms of what passes for normal development of a car from concept to release, it’s not been 2 years since GM announced the Volt and they are using Cruze mules which use the same chasis the Volt is using. That’s a far faster pace of development then they or any car company has done before. It ordinarily takes 6 years to market a car from concept to release date.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Just one more bit of information to help us continue to look for the Volt of our dreams. Good luck, GM. I truly hope you can pull it off without a hitch. I am pulling for you as are many, many more on this site and through out the country. Just wish the Volt could be out by early summer 2010.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:27 pm
19 Rick C Says:
November 21st, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Thanks for the update guys! And please, no PR debacles like the corporate jet trek with tin cup in hand!
=====================================================
or announcing their intent to spend a billion of it in Brazil and a half billion of it in Shanghai in order to move US production and design to save money…. that may actually help with financial viability; but it certainly isn’t the answer the congress is looking for.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:30 pm
@Rick C
BMW’s mini only took 1year and 11 beers and they now have a electric mini. It uses AC Propulsion tech (Go US) but the battery sucks 7000+ balls (7000 18650 cells).
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
WHY TO WAIT TILL 2011 !???
In 1995 GM produced EV 1 why crushed them , why not to drive theme like the Toyota RAV – EV today in present times !
As I know EV 1 had 120 miles range,why the VOLT in 2011 will have only 40 ? WHY ???
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
100 Equinox SUV hydrogen fuel cell cars were given away and put on the road with consumers close to hydrogen filling stations a year ago for beta testing. Volt is dragging their asses too slowly. Let’s get 100 volt mules on the road now. I drive 24 miles total to and from work and have an AC outlet already installed in my driveway. I’m using a 2006 Malibu Maxx now and I’ll tell you what this Volt is missing and needs to be tweeked. NYC traffic can road test anything you dare to throw at it. Let’s get it on and cut this PR jerking around.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm
GM sent my job oversees in 2003. I got over that with the idea of the Volt. Now they want some MORE of my tax dollar to save their bad business model. Screw them. Screw the Volt. There will be other companies with an all electric car that did NOT need governmental help.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm
It would seem different parts of GM don’t know what is going on in other parts of the corporation and they certainly don’t fall into line with PR announcements. Spending a billion of the bridge loan in Brazil doesn’t sound like the thing to announce when you are trying to get money out of the American taxpayers. Keeping that money in the U.S. should be the plan. I can understand GM wanting, and needing, to invest in Brazil to insure the same financial problems occurring here don’t happen there. But, to announce it now seems completely bone headed.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I don’t want to be unpleasant but WHY do people keep mentioning UGLY little electric ‘cars’ that are always a cross between a shopping trolley and a golf car on this site – sure it is free publicity but PLEASE!?
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:35 pm
As Tesla found out the hard way, it is much harder to design a safe vehicle that meets federal standards then they expected. Not that they didn’t learn their lesson, it is just too bad they are shutting down the Rochester Hills, MI office… we need the jobs here. And as someone who has worked on the Volt battery pack, it will be much more robust than anyone will believe. Not to mention the problems Tesla must have wiring all those batteries together. Do you know what the most common failure is in a car? Wiring harness terminals… guess how many are in a Tesla with +2000 odd batteries vs. a Volt with 288 cells. Throw in a little salt spray and bumpy roads, not to mention a bunch of silicon valley engineers that design network routers that can’t even handle a power surge… well, you’ve got yourself a gigantic failure on your hands. Why do you think Toyota has such a small battery pack of good ole reliable NiMH cells in the Prius? The wiring and terminals are a huge problem… that is also why they are so conservative and haven’t created larger battery packs. And I won’t even go into ionic contamination or tin whiskers… Ever put a Sharper Image “shower” radio in the shower? How long did it last before ionic contamination shorted out the DC power circuit? In my house it lasted 9 months. And Sharper Image has been selling that junk for years and have years of warranty data…. my point is there are many, MANY unanswered, unimagined problems waiting out there to muck it up. Hence Toyota’s genius in having a large fleet of Priuses for many years…
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I hope he got frostbite standing out there in the cold, he deserves it for what he has done to damage the company. Sorry, just a little bitter.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Very, VERY good news. And well calculated. Bob’s realized GM came across as a bunch of total nutcases, and so they are taking the WISE road of first, rolling out a lot of Volt news (I expect a great deal of new stuff in the next few days) then they can take this press gold to Congress and say “Here’s the car, uses no gas for 40 miles, park in the sun when you fly to maintain charge, get 50 mpg after” and be ahead of the game.
I’m not saying it’s entirely honest, but it will make the point.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I am just amazed that GM is keeping the Volt going. It must be a drain on finances and they are not even planning on selling very many. GM has already stated that the Volt should not even be considered in their overall CAFE figures, which implies to me that there is not much plan to produce these in significant numbers.
If GM goes under, this really would be the biggest loss, our chance to have a great car…
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:43 pm
I’m still so disappointed in the design. There is nothing new or innovative about the design. I was so exicted about the original design and could not wait to buy a Volt. Now, I’m not so sure. This new design is kinda boring. The Prius looks better.
Once again, the old men at GM chose to step in and put their dated stamp on something that could have been innovative and fresh and forward thinking. Why are American car companies so afraid of change and innovation, even when their stock is at record lows and they are bankrupt they are afraid to take a chance. What will it take? The Board should fire all of those old timers and hire a bunch of design students right out of college and let them create the car of the future.
I’m glad the Federal Government has decided to make any bailout contingent on the presentation of a plan. It’s about time the government stopped with the handouts and stopped rewarding failure. This country has become too comfortable and too complacent. Finally, an administration that believes in hard work and accountability will soon be in the house. And none too soon.
If the crappy Volt design is the best GM can do, they should go under.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:43 pm
It’s still not to late for “Big Oil” to kill this just like they managed to make the EV1 go away.
I’ll save my excitement until the day I actually see one of these at a dealership.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:48 pm
@RICK
“Finally, an administration that believes in hard work and accountability will soon be in the house.”
Dude, don’t forget to mention that the Administration you speak of was also HEAVILY funded in their campaigns by the UAW.
Talk about “Special Interest Groups”……lol
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
@Mich-Placed Gator
Agreed. However, now the “Greenies” have picked up up pace and the last burn on Oil prices up the ying yang has made it’s mark. Hopefully people will start buying only Hybrids or Electric vehicles. Purely ICE vehicles numbers will go down by “Attrition”.
p
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:53 pm
#22 DB Cooper
The AER mode is from 80%-30%, or
maybe 85% to 35%…somewhere around there. GM has said that they plan on using 50% of the battery’s capacity. Let’s say the working range would be from around 30% SOC to 80% SOC. Lutz said the battery was at 60% SOC when he started driving. The battery SOC must have went down to 30% before the ICE kicked in, per the design. (60% -30%)/50% is 0.6 —> 60%
60% of available battery used, 19 miles traveled. The mule used more than 50% of available battery to go less than 50% of target AER.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:56 pm
#36 RICK
There is nothing new or innovative about the design? Mass-prodeuced E-REV seems new and innovative to me. The “design” goes deeper than the skin.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
hope GM is still in business in 2010. If not I hope this product can be absorbed and offered by another company. To be successful, the price has to be palatable.
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Regarding using compressed air rather than an ICE, with the car allready having a large battery, where would we put the gas cylinders, and without an ICE, how would we compress additional air for a long trip.
With technology available today, I think the Volt type E-REV is the way to go. I do not think the vast majority of Americans would buy an electric only car.
And from what I have seen here and on the net, I think GM is far ahead of the competition when it comes to getting an E-REV to the public.
If they can get thru this financial time, then the only problem they will have with the Volt sales is building them any wheres near fast enough to fill customer orders
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November 21st, 2008 at 5:59 pm
@ceebee
Dude, if you buy the Volt and GM goes under…..
BOOM!…..you have a “Collectors Item”. Don’t ever drive it…….lol
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:00 pm
High gas prices will return before we know it. Don’t ever think we have seen the last of it. Electric car like the volt is a step towards getting us out of the middle east. Is it the save all gadget? No but it will at least get us closer to the point where we can support ourselves. Coal, natural gas, solar, wind power and nuclear, anything but middle east or Venezuela oil. That way we have time to invest in better technology that is greener than fossil fuels. Until that time the Chevy Volt will help get us there. Its a great start GM. Just hope Rick Wagner learned his leasson this past week. Go prepared next time and trying driving there. That in itself will make an impression upon Congress and the general public.
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:03 pm
They flew there in their corporate jets…..
I about died laughing that day.
Anybody know where they stayed? What ritzy hotel was it for “Their safety?”
Why didn’t they stay at a Best Western….lol
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:13 pm
this will keep gm from going bankrupt
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Maybe Lutz’ tie changes color as the temperature changes. Maybe it is a mood tie.
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Looks like a $30,000 Toyota Prius. Gas prices passing $2 per gallon and heading towards $1. Wow… great timing GM guys. Hopefully, bankruptcy will help straighten things out; otherwise you’re toast.
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Wow this is great news, I hope they can get the Volt out to us before Dec. 2nd
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Now I am saddened to say the Volt is a scam which will be a huge failure. The boardroom cut out the people who need an electric car, and is designing this one for those who don’t. The 40 mile per charge will doom this car. Tesla Motors gets 250 miles per charge. The folks who had to buy homes 50, 75, 100 miles from their job (oneway) in order to find an affordable home need this car but 40 miles wont do it. The folks who live close enough to work for the volt to be useful don’t need the volt. They only burn a couple gallons getting to and from work so pump price won’t effect them. Many probably are close enough to ride bikes. This shows a complete failuer to know who the American people are and what their needs are. Hey GM you ignored the people that need you the most. Your through!
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:37 pm
@Bob Thieman
Ummm….
The Volt has an onboard Generator called a “Range Extender” capable of going in excess of 250 miles.
Dude, why don’t you read more into it before slopping your mouth around.
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:40 pm
I have a feeling the whole green movement will falter for several years and cars like the volt will not be economically marketable. I didn’t think this even a couple months ago but the price of oil is free falling and US + world economies are going to be depressed for a long time, perhaps 5 or more years. (I hope I’m wrong).
If gas stays below 2 dollars a gallon, a partially electric car is not economically justified for most middle income buyers. I know everybody is harping on greenhouse gas, etc, but if the world economy stays depressed, the price of oil will as well.
Europe already taxes the hell out of gas and consumers will likely not obsorb much more without a revolt. Here in the U.S., despite all the green drum beating, the fed will not raise the gas tax substantially in a bad economy, unless they want the GOP to re-take the Senate and White house.
Any rebuttals?
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Looks like too little,too late?The Volt may have been a game saver for G.M.
if they had brought it out several years ago.At this point,they are so far behind
the curve,I have to wonder if they’ll ever get this electric horse to the race?
At 30K-40K it’s not gonna fly.They just don’t seem to get what their customers need and want,and I think the curtains are lowering,and the lights
are starting to dim at G.M.What a great tragedy!
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Tesla this Tesla that. Go suck the umphthousand battery balls of the Tesla.
$100,000 for a car with late delivery promises low/no volume…..
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
The Volt needs to come out, get the technology on the road so others (like others always do) can start making improvements on it. 40 miles today 100 miles tomorrow, and you never know what after that, JGTVWOTR, NO PLUG NO SALE, =D~~~~~~~~~~~(my house)
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:44 pm
ThombDbhomb #40
Lutz wrote, “We started with about a 60-percent charge on the battery pack”. Hard to say for sure if he was seeing 60% of complete charge or 60% of usable. The little graphics they have shown on the display kind of look like only useable. Of course, I’m sure these mules are monitoring and showing a lot more info. Anywho, the last engineers statements were 35%-85% useable charge range, but they also said 40 miles AER beginning and end of life meaning an expanding discharge window. I’m figuring the 19 miles of his drive translates to anywhere from 32-42 miles AER and we have no idea how he drove.
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November 21st, 2008 at 6:58 pm
No plug no sale is a good motto. On top of that, give me a plug-in utility vehicle so I can haul my kayaks into kingdom come. Any word on what vehicles are going to be included in the “E-flex” lineup from GM?
I really think GM needs to make an extraordinarily huge commitment on their future…and NOW. Ditch the piston heads and hire the electrical engineers.
If they think America is going to pay 40k for it, they better think again. Get back to the basics of building a simple car. We don’t want to pay 40k for all the fluff…we’re tired of it. I sold my Cadillac STS a long time ago.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:12 pm
I’m sorry, but another Volt mule test – again ? Yawn ! How many times have we been here, with the same predictable postings – “hurry up and build it”, “let’s attach some stupid add-on to it” (can you believe compressed air tanks replacing the ICE?), and the ever-popular pink tie spotting club “he’s wearing the pink tie again”.
I mean, the Volt is a heart-achingly long 24 months away. Yes, yes, I got it – no plug, no sale. It memorized it after about the millionth time it was posted. Let’s get the Volt’s wheels…. yada, yada, yada. Is it 2010 yet ?
The GM bankruptcy threads have been the most entertaining posts lately, because it’s not the same thing, over and over and over again. I guess it’s back to boring old Bob Lutz and his slow-motion Volt again.
————————————————————————————
If you’re as bored as I am, here’s a link to a truly creepy, disturbing, but fun claymation short film on Youtube that will help pass the time a little: The Mysterious Stranger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqi5F5MqqTQ
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Hopefully, GM will survive and millions of Volts will be sold unless Americans are dumb enough to fall for cheap gas again.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Americans need to understand that buying gas does not stimulate our economy, it stimulates OPEC’s economy.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Love it, keep testing that volt mule in detroit with the 30 degree temps, make sure it will work for us northerners!
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm
If the Volt’s battery pack charges to 85% of its total capacity and the generator kicks on at 35% capacity as stated by a Volt engineer recently, then the usable capacity will be 50% of the total capacity. Starting with a 60% state of charge, the current usable capacity would be 60%-35%=25%. So he started with a 25% usable capacity out of a total of 50% usable capacity and went 19 miles. This would indicate that with the total 50% capacity he would have went 38 miles under the same conditions. As the EPA states: you’re mileage will vary. Lutz seemed to indicate that the driveing conditions were not ideal, so it looks like they may be right on target. Some people will get substantailly more range if they keep speed below 50mph, less range above 65mph, less range with frequent braking, etc….
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Just back from the L.A. Auto Show…
I spoke with GM reps: I wasn’t allowed in to sit in the car. And the rear hatch had to remain closed.
1>The air conditioning will not be ICE driven. It will be a condenser type run via electric drive.
2>The release date of November 2010 has been verified.
3>The charger plug-in unit locks in place. To release, one must touch a “release” button inside the Volt.
4>No fuel tank size or total range numbers were available.
5>The electric motor torque is roughly equivalent to a 6 cylinder gas burner.
6>A (Cadillac-like) GM badge has been added near the front wheel.
7>The battery has cell spacers which aid in cooling.
8>The front seat head room was called “similar to Malibu or Cobalt”.
I took many photos. Have 6 or 8 from other manufactures as well. Here is a shot of the display and the friendly “Volt girl”.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20026.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
#53 solo
I think the Prius demonstrates that there is a market for green cars. I know, the first Volts won’t be priced anywhere near Prius prices. The plan is for Volt prices to become affordable over time.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:45 pm
My family will not buy a new car until we can buy one that is like the volt. I I need a new car, but am making my old one last until the Volt comes out.
I agree with the comments that you should have made the volt look like the concept car. I get real tired of the minor changes the big-3 make to their lineups each year, passing them off as new. Headlight and grill changes don’t get anyone excited.
Finally, stop letting the UAW ruin any last chance you have to sell cars in the world. If you need to go bankrupt to get out of those insane labor agreements, then you need to go bankrupt.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:55 pm
#63 Dave K. Says: “Just back from the L.A. Auto Show… I spoke with GM reps…
3>The charger plug-in unit locks in place. To release, one must touch a “release” button inside the Volt.”
————————————————————————————–
That sounds really inconvenient. It would be much better to lock/unlock the plug together with your car doors using the remote buttons on your key.
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November 21st, 2008 at 7:59 pm
If the Volt sold for 20,000 dollars I might overlook only going 19 miles before the engine/generator started up. But at $40K, c’mon guys. You want to sell a couple of Volts or do you wanna sell a million? GM makes such great vehicles but all of that creativity and talent seems wasted when so many bad managment decisions have been made. I don’t even like Toyota but they are making you look like saps when it comes to managment. Take care of your employees and they will take care of you. I understand a CEO at Toyota makes about 500K including benefits. I’m sure the execs at GM would not even get out of bed for such a paltry sum. But that would be a good place to start Bob. Then maybe your employees, represented by the UAW might be motivated to make more concessions.
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Why doesn’t GM just reproduce the 100% electric EV1 they made in 1996? Would definitely prefer to get off oil dependence all together. Will possibly buy the volt if it gets produced soon, the late 2008 was a definite.
Right now the highway speed looks like the better choice if it is available around the same time frame, because it is 100% electric.
See it here http://www.milesev.com
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Volt design team … get ‘er done and get ‘er done right! I want the Volt to blow people’s minds when it comes out in late 2010. I want to see those car magazine people pile on the praise of how well designed the Volt is. I want world class exterior/interior design and world class reliability and quality. I want to read about how jealous all those Toyota Prius owners are of the Volt. They’ll just have to trade in their Prius and get their own Volt.
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Only 19 miles Bob?
I’m assuming the Volt mule you were driving must have had a lead-acid battery pack?
Another thing, the 30 degrees you refer to Bob, was that ambient outside temperature, or a 30 degree incline you were driving on?
That I could see, I mean only getting 19 miles out of the Li-Ion battery pack if the Volt was driven on a steady 30 degree incline.
Um, yeah, so which is it?
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Breaking News:
GM is considering bankruptcy protection, which is authorized by its board, according to WSJ!
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
The Prius led me away from GM and the Volt will bring me back! Keep up the testing and bring this to market. Only the American companies can truly bring environmentally sound products to the masses. We are ready!
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
#70 Guy Incognito – “Only 19 miles Bob?”
It was 60% charged. The ICE kicks in at 35% charge. So that’s 19 miles on a 25% charge. In cold and windy conditions with a drive train which has yet to be tuned.
Seems very good. Not sure what you think the problem is.
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:41 pm
#63 Dave K— Information from auto show
===================================
Thank you for these items. Intangibly, what was your impression?
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
The 19 miles starting from 60% charge is meaningless as to all-electric range unless one knows the speed(s) that Mr Lutz drove.
If his reputation is accurate, he drove fast. The faster one goes, the more the aero drag. It is a huge effect. The car might be well over 40 miles AER at say 45 mph and well under at say 70 mph.
From the data given, and the data omitted (no doubt on purpose), one just does not know how to make use of those 19 miles, except that we do know the car was on electric and did make fairly smooth transitions.
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
( platofrm ) – Come on guys if you want us to believe you are starting to get your act together and Quality is a priority have some one proof read your press releases, otherwise we may feel your panic that is far too late coming. Personally, I am a strong supporter of giving you guys a chance to catch up with the world in terms of being aware of where the industry has been going for the past decade, but you have to show us your best effort in all details. Nothing like the real potential of a complete collapse of your industry to arouse those that have been far too complacent, for far too long. We all make mistakes and arrogance multiplies our capacity to do really stupid things, so hopefully a lot of real panic can catch our collective attention and wake up those that thought being out of step with the realities of a world running out of recourses, is not wise. I blame partly an ‘entrenched make it while you can’ rush to blindly make money for creating the short-sighted impulses of your industry. Surly take the money and run, has got to mature to a longer big-picture view. I hope I haven’t been to harsh as high sight gives one the unfair advantage of seeing how things played out, not available to those in the thick of it as things evolve. Your new president has given us all renewed hope and we Canadians are hopeful too, for the US and all those willing to embrace doing things carefully, ensuring all are considered. I think there is huge potential for the world to follow your lead, to grow up and act more mature, about race and cultural differences – our diversity makes us better, and rebuilding commerce so that we always keep the big picture in mind and abandon self-focused greed. We want to write our history that we will be proud to have our grandchildren read.
I wish you good thinking, good planning for a sustainable future and a gentle outlook on the world and all it’s people.
Allan Mac Neil
allanmacneil@gmail.com
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:52 pm
More on the L.A. Auto show…
There was buzz around the Volt display and unofficial rumors concerning the battery technology…ect. I won’t be passing hear say along. It was all good.
Surprisingly many in attendance had very little knowledge of the Volt systems.
One 30 year old male stated, “This car won’t work in L.A. … just 40 miles on a charge”.
Another wanted to buy one and asked, “Is this available now?”.
_____________________________
BTW: I walked up to the information desks at Nissan, Toyota, and Honda. I asked each this question,”Do you have an electric car here?”.
Nissan said , “No”. I asked if they were building one. They replied, “No”.
Honda and Toyota said, “We have a hybrid over there. No electric car, no.”
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20022.jpg
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20028.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Unless GM gets their act together, I don’t believe we will ever see
the Volt. Lithium Ion Batteries won’t work. I was really hoping that
the Volt would become reality, but with the econmic situation and GM’s management, I give up.
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:02 pm
November 21st, 2008 at 9:17 pm
It was very upsetting see the CEO spending $20,000 flying a private while at the same time bumming or begging for “Taxpayer” funds to save a company that should go into bankruptcy.
You need to be trimmed down from the top down:
First I would fire Wagner and his understudies.etc. etc.
Why did you unravel a profitable company that was more than GM the auto company.
Big mistake selling Hughes Satellite, Electronic Data Systems. You had a chance to become a great company but now your time has come to be dismantled.
Reorganize your company and then the taxpayers would be will to provide DIP financing during your bankruptcy.
Mr. GM you let us down your autos are a pile of disease especially you HUMMER, etc. etc.
Also your dealer are a bunch of ripoffs, they have been scamming the public for many years and you are responsible for that because you have no oversight.
Please do us a favor and file ASAP.
Thanks.
The Tesla is a better auto than your gas battery fiasco.
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:18 pm
L.A. Auto show…
The new Solstice showed off it’s flair.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20016.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:20 pm
L.A. Auto show…
The Camaro looks like a lot of car for the money.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20050.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:21 pm
This is good news.
I’ll bet the team is still learning things about characterizing the complete “T Pack”. I wonder how accurate that 60% SOC number really was.
I’d really like to hear some news about the real AER with a freshly topped off pack. Perhaps they have some surprise they want to keep quiet for a while.
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
CaptJackSparrow Says:
November 21st, 2008 at 5:30 pm
@Rick C
>It uses AC Propulsion tech (Go US) but the battery sucks 7000+ balls (7000 18650 cells).<
###########################################################################
Well now there’s the rub isn’t it. 18650 batteries use the rather volatile Lithim Cobalt chemistry that can lead to thermal runaway events under the proper conditions. GM is using Lithium Nano-Phosphate chemistry which dramatically minimizes the thermal runway issue. Further, the Volt’s body had to be designed to have a low coefficient of drag. Can that be said of the Mini Cooper? Additionally, the Volt will have a sophisticaled LCD display to show the diver state of charge, whether the car is a state of regenerative breaking, what the speed of the range extneded ICE is in, etc. GM also had to design the software in the onboard computer mangement system to maintain a State of Charge of 30% and now lower but no higher than 80% to 85% in order to prolong battery life.
The AC proplusion system would be nice in any car but has BMW added all the extras as has been the case with the Volt.
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:37 pm
This is the most exciting thing to happen in the industry since they started making motorized automobiles. I’m so glad GM has came through after scraping the EV-1. I hope this propels your corp to new heights!!! Go GM & Go USA!!!!!!!
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November 21st, 2008 at 9:58 pm
This is like buying a new saddle for a dead horse. GM is too busy making cars it likes to build ones it’s customers would like. No cars, no customers, no GM. No one even knows what the final price of the Volt is going to be and by the time you add the added tax we would pay for the Bailout no one would buy it anyway. I hope all the people that are on the waiting list send in their $500 deposit so Wagoner will have some more money to p— away. It would also be interesting to know how much all this research on the battery pack is costing. Maybe we will find out on Dec. 2nd when they have all their numbers for the House Committee.
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:05 pm
hi Bob McGovern #86,
“… one would buy it anyway…”
____________________________
I think the news of this week is pretty good. Gm, Ford, and Chrysler will be standing as the new administration comes into office. I wouldn’t be surprised to see some sort of out-of-the box plan from Obama. I just hope he has the guts to do it.
L.A. 11/21/08 http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20023.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Just as a side comment to the person mentioning off road versions – Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep has EV vehicles in development – I found it from the Jeep website. They are doing a sporty car (Dodge), a minivan (Chrysler) and a Wrangler Unlimited (Jeep). They are claiming numbers nearly identical to the Volt – one of these models mentioned above for 2010 for NA, with a 40 mile all-electric range, small gas-powered generator for ~400 miles on 8-10 gallons (based on Jeep site).
Don’t know if they are just hitching to the Chevy post or not, but seems a little coincidental, doesn’t it? Same idea, same launch window, same all-electric range. Weird……….
https://www.chryslerllc.com/en/innovation/envi/overview/
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:39 pm
#84 Rick Covert – “GM is using Lithium Nano-Phosphate chemistry which dramatically minimizes the thermal runway issue.”
Compact Power and LG Chem use Manganese-spinel technology.
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:42 pm
I would love to see an unaffiliated dealership spring up called “Electric Boulevard”. They could offer 10 models ranging from 2 seat Solstice to hockey mom Caravan. (hee hee)
And start an EV tech mechanics school to support all EV’s. Much better than 20,000 dealerships having their “electric” Good wrench guy on site.
L.A. 11/21/08 More cars…..
ZEO http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20ZEO%20007.jpg
Flexstreme http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Flexstreme%20030.jpg
=D~
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:44 pm
The age of the gas electric car may be delayed untill someone buys the excessive production that GM , Ford and the rest tryed to use to get through this down turn but it is comming to you as it will be part of getting out of this one . God be my witness .
God Bless
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November 21st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I am disappointed that it took GM this long to produce a working Volt, and the production model looks rather like a Prius. The electro/oil powered technological concept has been around for longer than the WW1 submarines, and diesel-electric locomotives. Further, with only 40 miles on a charge for the Volt, let’s face it…it is pathetic because the EV1 could go further. I hope GM restructures itself out of its financial crisis and I am hoping for the best, but GM only have themselves to blame. GM’s CEO needs to step down. Ford is worse, because they have publicly stated they are waiting for the hybrid/electric vehicle market to develop itself rather than developing something to stay ahead of the market.
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November 21st, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Wow! Great work from GM. AND from the sound of the CCP Officers writing the troll posts here – they must be really terrified of GM’s success.
But it is hilarious to read the last gasp doomsday comments. Faded old people who haven’t woken up to the idea that no one believes them! Good for a laugh though.
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November 21st, 2008 at 11:14 pm
DonC Says:
November 21st, 2008 at 10:39 pm
#84 Rick Covert – “GM is using Lithium Nano-Phosphate chemistry which dramatically minimizes the thermal runway issue.”
Compact Power and LG Chem use Manganese-spinel technology.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DonC,
Thanks for the information. I stand corrected
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November 21st, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Anyone thinking about comparing the Volt to the EV-1, Tesla and such, should first go back and learn how they work.
If you don’t know the difference between an electric car and an electric- range- extender vehicle, you’re just going to ask that same stupid question. AGAIN.
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November 21st, 2008 at 11:58 pm
TESLA #7
“How can a small outfit in california build the Tesla & the big 3 can’t.. BAD MANAGEMENT !!! BY GM FORD & MOPAR”
*** *** ***
The Roadster is hardly on the road in force nor is it viable! I doubt Tesla will survive w/o a merger or an answered Hail Mary. I’ll just break the broken record one more time for consumption. Vehicle development is much more difficult than anyone ever imagined. It’s not quick nor is it easy.
If you want to argue bad MGMT, you do have a point about the last 35-40 years, but it’s not easy to undo, nor is it easy to take a stand and dig in and decide that after that many years of balance sheet and income statement management you’re going to concentrate on automobiles. This is exactly the stand that Wagoner has taken. Not easy or popular for a publicly held corp. The B.O.D. knows this and is on board or else they’d have ousted him. Really, what choice does this company have?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 am
I sure hope people don’t believe that 30°F counts as winter. It’s only cold enough to be considered fall… not much of a system challenge. In fact, that’s why they aren’t dressed heavy in the photo.
Let it sit outside for 8 hours while you work (without an outlet available) when the temperature is 35 degrees colder, in the negatives. That’s the real mccoy. It happens routinely here in Minnesota.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 am
I will be contacting my congressman & Senators asking that the U.S. government responsibly support General Motors Corp.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:00 am
#90 Dave K: I would love to see an unaffiliated dealership spring up called “Electric Boulevard”.
Jesus. You people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPk5IUbdH0
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:04 am
#94 Rick Covert
But as you point out, a lot better than the Li-ion battery pack in the mini, just not quite as safe nor as long lasting as the A123 batteries.
#96 Grizzly – “If you want to argue bad MGMT, you do have a point about the last 35-40 years, but it’s not easy to undo”
It’s easy to call people idiots, and sometimes that is warranted, but the legacy costs are not something easily dealt with. You almost have to run the thing into bankruptcy.
However it’s hard to argue that Waggoner hasn’t been grossly overpaid. He’s made a lot of bucks losing a lot of dough.
#97 john1701a – “I sure hope people don’t believe that 30°F counts as winter”
LOL. Just depends on where you live. That’s way too cold. We’d be dying in the streets. BTW, what is that white stuff by the side of the road?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:11 am
Can’t wait to buy and drive an electric car.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:53 am
Can someone confirm whether the used battery range is 80->30 or 85->35. It seems to make the difference between 31.7 Miles electric and 38 miles electic on a full charge based on Lutz’s claims.
From my experience of GM and Lutz’s exaggerations if he had been anywhere near 40 he would have been crowing about how much they had beaten 40. That he gave the information the way he did leads me to believe that the 32 number is more accurate.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:59 am
I think what Mr. Lutz has to say about the Volt is great, but what he doesn’t want to talk about IS the most important. The finances. Can you or I afford this car? We don’t know.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 am
Speaking of the 40 mile range, my other car is a Vectrix eBike — top speed 60MPH, average range of 40 miles — and that 40 mile range is very sweet.
Not sure whether I’m still planning to buy a Volt when they come out, but if my plans to convert an existing vehicle to all-electric don’t get put into action, I’ll be buying me a Volt within a year of general availability.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 2:19 am
So you guys want a bailout? You want 22 billion just to stay above water. OK, but here is how you are going to spend those 22 billion. At 40,000 per car you should be able to produce 25,000 cars for each of those billion dollars. But here’s the catch. We’re not going to give you the money directly. You’ll just pour it down the never ending rathole of pension and health benefit obligations you never had the courage to get under control. Here’s an idea. Why don’t we ask the idiots in Washington to authorize a TAX CREDIT for the entire $40,000 cost of the Volt to be amoratized over a 5 year period. Each year a Volt owner would be eligible for an $8,000 tax credit which could be used to pay off the car or if that person is a complete idiot could be used to buy large screen TV’s or the new Blackberry. Either way we would be pumping that money back into the economy. Lenders would still be in business because at that price most of us would have to obtain a loan for the damn thing. The assembly lines would stay in business producing the car which would keep all the suppliers in business as well. So for the 22 Billion we should expect at a minimum 550,000 units. I’m pretty sure people are smart enough to recoginize a good deal when they see it. I’d rather see that money pumped directly into the consumers hands than to the suits at GM. There is no way in hell the bailout money will be used to produce a car which will reduce our dependence on oil especially when gas has has dropped below $2 a gallon. I used to be a huge Volt fan but when the price hit $40,000 and GM started begging for a bailout I decided to keep my little Saturn Wagon. Do the math folks. At that price you will never save enough money on gas unless you drive an 18 wheeler to work every day. I made a very simple excel spreadsheet based on a car which gets 30 miles per gallon costing about $25,000 brand new and the payback was over 20 years with gas costing $4 per gallon. Anybody seen the cost of gas lately? And by the way, my spreadsheet didn’t even take into consideration the cost of replacing the battery pack if you kept the car long enough. And here’s one more little item I’ve never seen discussed. We all know the minute you drive a car off the lot it loses value instantly. What do you think will happen when you go to sell the Volt after owning it for 3 to 4 years. Do you think the buyer is just going to forget about the battery pack which has now been depleted by those 3 to 4 years of use? I don’t think so. You can just plan on another devaluation of the value of the car when you try to sell it or trade it in. Belive it or not I wish GM only success with this car but I don’t see it happening at this price point especially in this current economy. It may have had a chance at $25,000 but at $40,000 there are too many other cars coming to market which will all but make the mileage issue a moot point. If you are going to purchase this car because you believe you are going to make some sort of contribution to the improvement of the environment then God bless you but if you think you are going to save money purchasing this car you better do some more homework.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 3:02 am
On Wagoner’s next Congress meeting, I think that Wagoner should truck the Volt to Washington DC and drive it half a block to the Senate. This way all will get a look at GM’s innovation and correct the bad press of the last meeting. Wagoner can then truthfully show what his company can make and why he needs more money to keep GM afloat.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 am
I don’t understand the argument that GM should have brought out the Volt a decade ago or their too late or some don’t like the styling, etc.
To all those who have forgotten, the price of oil was cheaper then than now and the battery technology was developed not sufficiently. Also the electric drive is the breakthrough not the styling.
Maybe GM should have waited another decade until batteries are better or the super capacitor had evolved sufficiently to replace batteries, but wouldn’t that be ceding the electric car to the Asians to build.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:40 am
hi Lurtz #99,
“… #90 Dave K: I would love to see an unaffiliated dealership spring up called “Electric Boulevard”…. Jesus. You people…. ”
_______________________________
Eddy Grant’s Electric Avenue is a good song. But, I’m missing your point.
The heck with it, just pass the fatty.
L.A. 11/21/08
MiEV http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20MiEV%20011.jpg
Volt hatch http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20048.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:53 am
hi reel$$ #99,
“… read the last gasp doomsday comments …”
_________________________
Talk about GM stock hitting upward resistance at $4. The posers are coming out of the woodwork. Do I hear a heart beat?
+++++++++++++++++++++
L.A. 11/21/08 http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20046.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 6:08 am
what is that white stuff by the side of the road?
__________________________________
Not even enough to make a footprint is a drastic departure from the usual proof that a vehicle is capable. For mainstream acceptance, especially at such a high price, you cannot take anything for granted. Real-World data availability why it will take another 2 years after rollout begins before production volume is seriously ramped up.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 6:25 am
L.A. 11/21/08….
The Camaro http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Camaro%20049.jpg
The Pontiac G3 http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20G3%20034.jpg
=D~
(Quote)
November 22nd, 2008 at 7:32 am
Well, you have seen the L.A. Auto Show pictures. I have a few suggestions for GM.
Potential buyers do not like the answer, “we are not saying yet” regarding cost, total driving range, color options…ect. Many perceive this non-answer as, “you don’t want to know”. And they will shop somewhere else.
Why not say? Around $40,000 cost, Around 300 miles range, available in Black, White, Blue, Red, and several other bright new colors.
People are trying to make up their minds on what to buy in a few years. The L.A. showing of the 2 new Camaro models did WONDERS for their popularity. People had their cell phones out saying, “Hey man, the Camaro is hot!”.
___________________________
Once again, CEO Rick has an opportunity this December 2nd. It wouldn’t cost anything for Rick to say,
“We feel the new electric Volt car is what America has been waiting for. The current environment of economic stress in America bolstered by the threats from hostile foreign interests have made the Volt an essential part of America’s future. It’s imperative that Congress assist GM in bringing this technology to the nation. And, as I have stated, GM is willing to make additional adjustments to our product line and to our labor benefit packages, on all levels, to realize this goal.
Yes we can?
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 7:36 am
Leave the jets at home and drive the VOLT to the next congressional hearing in 10 days and let country see for itself the progress GM is making.
Dan
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November 22nd, 2008 at 7:53 am
GXT #102
Are you kidding? It could have been Winnie The Pooh giving the information and you’ld be saying the same thing.
And I’m no fan of Mr. Lutz. He’s full of a crock in a lot of ways but he is pushing the industry in the right direction with the Volt regardless. 40 miles AER is the easy part. Selling in an acceptably prived and pleasing EREV with a 10 year warranty is the hard part.
Please correct me if I’m wrong but you are one of the last people posting here that should comment on biases. Have you had one single positive or even neutral based comment on the Volt?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:13 am
Okay, a few more pictures.
L.A. Auto Show 11/21/08….. the newest technology.
Buick Riviera http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Riviera%20032.jpg
Buick Riviera open http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Riviera%20033.jpg
Volt and “Volt girl” http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20display%20044.jpg
When petitioned… “Is the Volt accented in rich Corinthian Leather?”.
The Volt girl returned ‘a knowing smile’, but would not spill the beans.
NRCLNS
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:17 am
GET RID OF THE GASOLINE ENGINE!!!!! NO PETROLEUM!!!!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:33 am
Lets see, 19 miles with 60% charge, works out to about a 32 mile range. This is consistent with the need to reduce the life margin from 8 to 6 KWH, and increase the usable capacity to 10 KWH during their “tuning.”
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:50 am
Saturday November 22, 6:12 am ET
Obama outlines jobs plan to rebuild roads, modernize schools and improve energy system:
“These aren’t just steps to pull ourselves out of this immediate crisis; these are the long-term investments in our economic future that have been ignored for far too long,…”
The economic recovery plan being developed by his staff aims to create 2.5 million jobs by January 2011, and he wants to get it through Congress quickly and sign it soon after taking office. Aides said the economic plan outlined Saturday went further that the president-elect has gone before.
“… It is time to act. As the next president of the United States, I will.”
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/GM%20flags.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
We do not have enough information to really base the AER range.
The term 60% charge is misleading. Are they using a 0-100% scale for the available 8KWh or was that number based on the entire 16 KWh capacity of the battery?
Without that information, it is impossible to properly calculate the AER range,
Or am I missing something?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:05 am
If the US gummint wants to do something useful they could ‘nationalize’ the acquisition of foreign oil and then make a market in the US to all refiners that would keep the price of gas at $2. or more. Domestic oil is not included. This is actually a tax but the proceeds would be (and must be) directed by law to support innovative development by US companies on US soil in projects such as GM’s Volt, GM/Coskata ethanol plants, US battery research and, more importantly, production, Chrysler ERV & etc. These monies could be directed ( an independent board of scientists and industrialists and academics?) to real initiatives to free us from anti-US cartels. Let’s not repeat the mistakes we made 40 years ago – our competitors do not believe in free trade. We do have the strategic national interest to protect ourselves from economic suicide.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
I most be missing it!
Where does Lutz or anyone else say they started at 60% SOC? I read and re-read the posting, and they say nothing about it. Is this stated in a different article?
I wonder if Lutz did any reverse doughnuts on the snow/ice? Would love a YouTube on that
Ohhhh… someone did catch Bob “having a little fun!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C00tkG9K4×4
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:15 am
Found this clip of the Volt. Not very promising
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5AOWL0fRE
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:27 am
Since MOST of the electric drive components were completed in the EV-1, they could have simply integrated them into the new Cruize, add the new range-extender and batteries and they could have these in dealerships in 2009. But GM wanted to make a “Green” RP statement by producing an all new car and this has cost them dearly in both time and money.
Meanwhile, the competition and dying global economy is biting their heels so they come to the gov’t in their private jets to beg for TAXPAYER’S money redistribution and social central planning because they SCREWED UP AGAIN!
(and world keeps on spinning, spinning, spinning into the future….)
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 am
I think GM, as is, is just too big and too confuse to get this project right. If they don’t mense up on the mechanicals, they will blow up on the pricing. For the start, other competitors are coming with their own versions of the EV. That means more choices and power to us- the consumer. If Tesler could do it with so limited resources and talent and no gasoline is need, then why is it taking the almighty GM this much time to come up with a gas-electric box. They are still stuck in their SUV mindset. The pricing rumurs for the volt is a guarantee that GM will go under. Surely, new crops of car makers will rise and the old mindsets will die. As long as we the people benefit from this rise and fall, I could care less for GM. They need to change their ways and look to the future.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:39 am
JonP
Ok. Statik is not on-line….so, did you sell at $4.00?
Shhhhhhh……type quietly. I just gotta know, too.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:45 am
2008 Los Angeles Auto Show – MotorTrend Chevy Volt Interview with the KEY players at GM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6mzFhgrZSU
Well worth watching!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:45 am
Morning tidbit:
Wagoner gets owned by his board.
—————————————————
“General Motors bd weighs bankruptcy as option-WSJ”
–
WASHINGTON, Nov 21 (Reuters) – The board of directors of embattled U.S. automaker General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) is considering “all options” including bankruptcy, according to a report on the Wall Street Journal’s website late on Friday.
The paper, citing people familiar with the board’s thinking, said the stance puts it in conflict with chief executive Rick Wagoner, who told lawmakers this week bankruptcy is not a viable alternative for the company.
GM, in a statement to the newspaper, said the board has discussed bankruptcy, but said the board did not view it as a “viable solution to the company’s liquidity problems.”
A GM spokesman told the paper that management is doing everything it can to avoid a bankruptcy filing.
———————————————————
/somebody lied on capitol hill and to the shareholders
//somebody isn’t going to be CEO much longer
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:50 am
#121 JEC – “Where does Lutz or anyone else say they started at 60% SOC?”
You’re missing it because it’s not in Lyle’s excerpt. It’s in the blog which is cited by the excerpt as well as by Tim in the last thread. (Nice catch Tim). The precise quote is:
“We started with about a 60-percent charge on the battery pack, to see how it would perform and when the engine would kick on.”
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:50 am
Crap!
He heard me typing…Does the man ever sleep?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:51 am
On November 19,2008, the House Financial Services Committee held a legislative hearing on extending the Department of Treasurys Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) to the U.S. auto industry. The draft legislation will extend the recently passed TARP program to help the financial stability of the American car industry. Testifying on the third panel were Mrs. Annette Sykora, Chairman, National Automobile Dealers Association, Mr. James S. McElya, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Cooper-Standard Automotive, Inc., Professor Jeffrey D. Sachs, Director, The Earth Institute; Quetelet Professor of Sustainable Development and Professor of Health Policy and Management, Columbia University, and Dr. Matthew J. Slaughter, Professor of International Economics, Tuck School of Business, Dartmouth College.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E78PLL3Xd3c
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:52 am
DonC
Thanks! I assumed I probably just missed it, but sometimes info gets tossed around like facts.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:56 am
wow ,you guys take the cake ,you could have been the strongest company on earth ,if only you had the insight to see ,what most americans know, energy is the ticket ,i told you 2 or 3 years ago, r&d r&d r&d ,toyota ,and honda , will destroy you with technology alone , you have become a liability to all americans ,only because there is too much bs , in your company , talk to you low skum works ,guess what ,they know how to get you back on your feet ,they know more than you think . do you think they want to be unemployed ,i bet you can get a good gang of great workers together, to invent the new technology , you can do this i know you can ,united we stand ,this can be done ,ask and you shall recieve ,but remember r&d r&d r&d , those skum workers know more than you think . but please ,please ,please , as americans we can do this ,yes we can
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:57 am
a real proud american ,not proud of our government ,
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:58 am
Britta Gross, GM’s manager of Hydrogen and Electrical Infrastructure Development, speaks with the Work Room at the 2008 Los Angeles Auto Show about working with electric utilities to prepare for the widescale deployment of the plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR2xsXlsq_Q
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:59 am
#127 Statik
C’mon pal (are we sufficiently acquainted for the pal part? LOL), you know full well that when you’re perilously close to running out of money you *always* plan for Chapter 11. It would be gross negligence not to, and you can’t put something like this together in a morning. Of course they’re preparing for it.
However, considering it, preparing for it, and even doing it, doesn’t make it viable.
Having said that, I confess having moved to your position that bankruptcy, while a risky and unpalatable process in this case, may be the only way for the Detroit automakers to get healthy enough to become competitive. It’s still a bad idea but I don’t think the UAW can make the concessions needed without the cover of a bankruptcy.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 am
I have lost confidence in GM, the VOLT was 2 years too late to the party, just like every other thing GM has done. They will be bankrupt in 2 months time. Forget the VOLT, buy a horse.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:01 am
Sorry folks, I am a G.M. man and at the very least a North American car man but the Volt just doesn’t do anything for me. From what I can tell, everyone else is going to be competing with G.M. and unfortunately the VOLT looks like it is the poor mans version of a car. I don’t even know if 2010 is going to even come for G.M. and at the rate things are going, very few are going to be even able to get a loan for the car. Maybe the Cuban’s have it right as far as their use of the automobile!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:02 am
______________________________________________________
America the Stupid:
“The United States has asked four oil-rich Gulf states for close to 300 billion dollars to help it curb the global financial meltdown…The four states are estimated to have amassed close to 1.5 trillion dollars in surplus in the past six years due to high oil prices”
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/bs_afp/financeeconomyusgulf_081120072928
—-
The multiple levels of irony and American idiocy that the above article exposes is extraordinary. We are going to further barrow from the Chinese to pay for the interest on the loan of the money we are going to borrow from the Arabs….
What does it take to fire up the American public about how screwed up America has allowed itself to get with regards to America’s dependence of foreign sourced energy?
American energy independence will only be achieved by the contribution of each one of us to do our part to achieve American Energy Independence; the power of one. The politicians on both side of the isle have repeatedly demonstrated over the past three decades that they are not capable of addressing this issue beyond very strong rhetoric.
Don’t let the temporary lower price of oil cloud the truth that we American’s need to take matters in our own hands to save this country.
The time is now for a grass-roots revolt!
_____________________________________________________
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:09 am
hi JEC #121,
The current Volt test drive video’s are simply this. An effort to get a moving image of the Volt using a few standard Die Hard type batteries for power.
Here is one of the better Volt demo videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVk_j7dqcCY&NR=1
______________________________
The Volt owner will be happy with the battery range. And will love the smooth quiet ride. And the available off-the-line torque. The electric GEM car I drive has a small low tech battery. And I have yet to see rear traffic keep up with my 0-20 MPH acceleration. I can get a slight chirp from the front tires during cornering.
$25,000 is the average cost of a decent car these days. You can get sardine cans for $16,000 and low end hybrids for $23,000. The Volt may be priced as much as $40,000 (minus a $7500 tax credit). So for the extra $7500 we’ll be getting a very comfortable, hyper efficient, consumer tech heavy, fun to drive, patriotic vehicle.
My $32,500 will buy a Volt. And yes, leather is standard.
Volt open doors http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20024.jpg
Volt display http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20027.jpg
The posted “L.A.” pictures had 1000 hyperlink hits yesterday, and 500 so far today.
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:12 am
Thanks Lyle.
Very good post and a nice diversion.
Hope we all get a chance to actually get behind the wheel, pull back that funky shift lever and depress the “go” pedal. (Can’t call it a gas pedal anymore.) And go down the road, whisper quiet, watching those graphics on their screens as we drive.
It will be major fun to actually test drive a Volt one day.
Maybe GM will have the good sense to take their latest prototype to DC in December when they present their case to Congress. It is the most exciting thing GM, or any American car manufacturer, has done in decades. If I were them I would front with it.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 am
#130 Tim
Nice catch of Lutz’s blog in the last thread, and a nice cite to the testimony of Jeffry Sachs here. But I think this one is actually better, because it makes a much more forceful and persuasive case for the Big 3 than the CEO’s did, basically pointing out that Chapter 11 is a “fantasy” in the absence of a functioning financial market. Of note for those who didn’t look at your link is how front and center the Volt is in his testimony – we’re not the only ones excited by the technology. Perhaps the Big 3 need to hire him to make their case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Z7Dez2_z4&feature=channel
Note to Statik: Listen up, dude!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:24 am
I am very pleased with the progress of the Volt and will buy one a year or two after its out.
I don’t believe that taxpayers should bail the big 3 out financially. You folks wouldn’t be in this mess if you had come out with something like the volt 10 years ago. None of the technology in this car is truly cutting edge…you are just taking existing technology and putting it into a new package.
Don’t kill the electric car again (EV1). Its too important and will save you financially.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:26 am
hi Don C #141,
The Jeffry Sachs video is compelling. The Democrats will find it difficult to ignore that Kennedy haircut.
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:26 am
#140 mikeinatl.
Maybe GM will have the good sense to take their latest prototype to DC in December when they present their case to Congress. It is the most exciting thing GM, or any American car manufacturer, has done in decades.
- – - – -
Even better wouldn’t it be great if the execs car pooled? I am glad to hear that the Volt is progressing despite all the other nonsense. Here’s an idea; as part of GM’s plan they could suggest an advance on the delivery of 10’s of thousands of Plug-in VUE’s (or similar technology) to be used by the postal service, hybrid suburbans for use by the secret service, hybrid malibu’s for use by police and local agencies. Instead of asking for a loan, GM should be looking for a huge sale spread over say a 12 year commitment. Every four years the fleet must be replaced with 10% average more efficient vehicles. This would fund R&D that will benefit all Americans, ensures that tax payers get something for the money, and creates additional demand (and scale) for our beloved Volt and its cousins. Welcome the green economy.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:46 am
Dude:
“He mentioned that there was some cutting in and out of the engine at low sppeds but that further testing would lead to correcting that.”
It’s spelled “speeds” not “sppeds”
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:17 am
Once again, CEO Rick has an opportunity this December 2nd. It wouldn’t cost anything for Rick to say,
“We feel the new electric Volt car is what America has been waiting for….”
______________________________________________
GM is dead if he says that.
The technology is great, but what does it have to do with immediate financial survival?
Congress wants to know how the loan will be paid back, not a speech about being patriotic.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 am
DonC,
Comrad, Sachs is again speaking to the problem and not the cause. Putting Billions in MORE taxpayer debt AND debasing (INFLATING) our fiat currency will only make it that much harder to dig out.
If you can’t pay your bills, you don’t take out another credit card and then another and another infinitum. Now that the credit has run out, the Fed is simply issuing more fait currency/credit they issue, they less REAL buying power it has. The resulting inflation is ANOTHER HIDDEN TAX!
The ONLY way to solve this problem (instead of just sweeping it back under the rug) is:
1) Tax Reform: Reduce the tax burden and eliminate taxes that punish investment and savings, including job-killing corporate taxes.
2) Spending Reform: Eliminate wasteful spending. Reduce overseas commitments. Freeze all non-defense, non-entitlement spending at current levels OR REDUCE THEM so people can learn to PULL THEIR OWN DAMN WEIGHT.
3) Monetary Policy Reform: Expand openness at the Federal Reserve and require the Fed to televise its meetings. Return value to our money BY BACKING IT 100% WITH GOLD. No more fiat currency means ending unlimited gov’t spending and public debt!
4) Regulatory Reform: Repeal Sarbanes-Oxley regulations that push companies to seek capital outside of U.S. markets. Gov’t needs to get OUT OF THE WAY AND STOP CENTRAL PLANNING. Small town Texas is different than small town Iowa which is different than small town Vermont.
All of this is IMPOSSIBLE as long as Congress is controlled by Democratic and NeoCon Socialists, who embrace central planning, ignore their OATH to the Constitution and only disagree on what programs they put us in debt or print more money to fund.
The pigs will continue to gather at the trough as long as the free food flows. It’s time to make some bacon and make room so younger and stronger pigs can take there place.
This regular Joe makes a good point: (you’re gonna love it)
The Bird Feeder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaklEq36_dk
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:54 am
EV1
Bob—that’s all you have to remember EV1
Go to the GM vaults Bob and dig out the designs Bob and rebuilt the EV1 Bob.
The Volt is an afterthought when I’m buying my Plug in Prius or fully Electric Imiev in 2010 Bob.
But by that time Bob—GM will be FORD…found on the road dead.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 am
I’m in love with the concept and promise of the Volt. But GM has such a history of mismanagement and is barely hanging on to life.
Is it realistic to expect a radical technology car such as the Volt to be released in a (hopefully) recovering 2010 economy for $40,000 plus and be successful, both technologically and financially? Will there be a dealer network remaining at that time with the resources to support such a remarkable vehicle?
We need to filter out the things that we want to happen and do a reality check here. I have the utmost respect for the miracle that Bob Lutz has accomplished, but the timing was too late or too early for GM. I hope that a viable company will be able to benefit from the research that has gone in this admirable experiment and produce a son of Volt that has a chance of success.
My appologies to all of my fellow enthusiasts. I am not doubting the technology, just the reality of the situation. I pray that a Phoenix will rise from GM’s ashes to produce such a wonder car.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
#149 Tim
OK you win. You get the sock puppet award. Congratulations!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Ken Says:
On Wagoner’s next Congress meeting, I think that Wagoner should truck the Volt to Washington DC and drive it half a block to the Senate. This way all will get a look at GM’s innovation and correct the bad press of the last meeting. Wagoner can then truthfully show what his company can make and why he needs more money to keep GM afloat.
——————————————————————————
Driving half a block wouldn’t be very impressive.
Since it is only 521 miles from Detroit to DC he would really impress them driving a Volt. He might have to be towed part of the way by a Toyota.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
hi john1701a #148,
“Congress wants to know how the loan will be paid back, not a speech about being patriotic.”
__________________________
I partially agree with you. Congress wants to know what the big picture looks like AND hear plans for making a long term profit.
Your view is: The mention of GM’s E-REV program being compatible with the Obama energy plan is corporate suicide. And the mention of America’s reliance on BIG OIL isn’t pertinent.
I respectfully disagree with you on this. By omitting this statement our adversaries will be aided. And, as I have stated before, we are not in ‘reality’ mode here, we are in the political arena.
Words are cheap. It will cost nothing for CEO Rick to wave the American flag and chime with the new administration.
11/21/08 L.A. Volt ~ note the graphics on the far side arm rest indentation.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Volt%20020.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
30,000 – 35000 dollars ?
Tesla makes it look sick,out performs it and goes 200 miles between recharges.
Why is GM trying to rip the people off with this terrible car
They deserve to be bankrupted out of existence .
This wont sell it has nothing going for it
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
#137 DonC:
Yeah, me too, alas.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 pm
#127 JEC
JonP
Ok. Statik is not on-line….so, did you sell at $4.00?
Shhhhhhh……type quietly. I just gotta know, too.
————————————————–
#131 JEC
Crap!
He heard me typing…Does the man ever sleep?
————————————————–
Sleeping is for the weak.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pm
#137 DonC
#127 Statik
C’mon pal (are we sufficiently acquainted for the pal part? LOL), you know full well that when you’re perilously close to running out of money you *always* plan for Chapter 11. It would be gross negligence not to, and you can’t put something like this together in a morning. Of course they’re preparing for it.
However, considering it, preparing for it, and even doing it, doesn’t make it viable.
Having said that, I confess having moved to your position that bankruptcy, while a risky and unpalatable process in this case, may be the only way for the Detroit automakers to get healthy enough to become competitive. It’s still a bad idea but I don’t think the UAW can make the concessions needed without the cover of a bankruptcy.
———————————————————–
Nice. Welcome to the dark side. Still plenty of coffees available in the kitchen and you can warm yourself over by the fire.
Side note: Your right, we knew they were doing it (planning for bankruptcy),especially after they posted all those jobs for ‘financial specialists’ online a few weeks ago, it would be (as you say) grossly negligent to not do it.
The issue of Wagoner standing up at a microphone and saying that they (the board) had never, at any point, had a discussion on it and had made no plans….thats a problem. That is a flat out lie, and not about some little thing like the Volt…about the only thing on the minds of the shareholders and people capitol hill right now. He should have said, we are preparing for all scenarios, but we feel it is not a viable option…or something like that…imo.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
After my disgust with the bailout and antics of the hopelessly out of touch CEOs last week, I am not going to buy a Volt. Please remove my name from the wait list. That is assuming it comes out which I give about a 5% chance now. In fact I will never buy ANY car from the “big 3″ American car companies again.
I’ll wait for a plug in Prius and end up with a much better quality and value, and not support the idiocy that has become the “big 3″.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:25 pm
A lot less talk and a lot more action! We need the Chevy Volt today.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Looks good for GM,
Lot times i was thinking people are announcing Electric cars for nothing,
Looks GM is serious but questions :
Once America away from Oil – Oil prices down -
Green people talk a lot but how many are serious on it ? One side we say we are becomming green where developing countries cant afford to be green.
Volt will be a showcase product but they need to have mass seller product and may be volt will be a mass seller after 5-10 years.
Only thing i am not sure is why they dont push it for street tests. I dont want to say i want to drive one as test ( i can ). But its better if they drive a year+ on daily usage on roads specailly hilly, snowy,rainy and changing weathers. Apart from battery every thing else can be finshed and these cars can use a test battery as the focus is not battery testing.
On another side safetly is important measure – A high crash ratings for all impacts.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
If these guys spent a little less time on their corporate jets the Volt would be in the showroom by now.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
hi Unni #161,
You make some good points. This is why Bob Lutz has said, “No one will get a Volt before 2010″.
GM wishes to overkill on the testing rather than “rush a product to market”.
And I also agree with you on the “affordability” part of this. It will be very smart to make an E-REV Cruze small SUV (RAV4) which looks just like a standard 4 cylinder car except for it’s electric drive.
First we must address the race for survival. The thing that has somewhat changed my mind in favor of a one time bail out for the big 3 is the fact that a domino of parts suppliers will slide as well. If it wasn’t for this, I would let GM sink or swim on it’s own. Too much is at stake to cut the life boat loose right now.
11/21/08 L.A. Flexstreme http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20Flexstreme%20029.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Has anyone else but me noticed that the congress only asked the big 3 to submit a plan to them by a date in dec.
and not bring a plan to them for discussion, are we not going to hear what the plan is? are they not going to go before the committee again and let the public know what it is,
OR are they just going to do what they always do and just approve the bailouts and just say the plan was acceptable
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November 22nd, 2008 at 1:58 pm
If you get a chance, NPR’s “Weekend Edition” had a really cute commentary on “Jetgate” this morning. They ended it by cutting to Frank Sinatra singing “Fly With Me”. LMAO.
“Come fly with me, let’s fly, let’s fly away. If you could use some exotic booze there’s a bar in old Bombay. Come fly with me, let’s fly , let’s fly away.”
Funny how such a small thing becomes the spotlight which shines on the whole sorry mess.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
124 Jec: “Found this clip of the Volt. Not very promising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5AOWL0fRE“
Uhhh… are you dense? That was the concept with a golf cart powertrain to allow for basic mobility. While you’re at it, why don’t you also say that the car will only go 40 miles on a charge–and not mention the range extender?
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November 22nd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
First of all the Volt, while an admirable concept, will be too little too late. BMW made an electric mini in less than 12 months from scratch. The big three, if they survive, need to completely re-arrange their business concept. Cost reductions by reducing wages, pensions and health benefits, eliminating the dealer concept, designing 2 and 3-seater commuter cars, city cars using non-fossil fuels, solar/hydrogen fuel units and so on would be a great start. Consumers need products that make sense and the Big 3, or should I say the Withering 3, are years behind. Their business is not built to react to the market place, they are so arrogant that they believe they ARE the market place and that what they build is what people want.
Sorry, I meant to mention that the first action to be taken is to replace the CEO’s of the Big (Withering) 3.
I heard that the average auto worker gets $73 per hour. Whether this is true or not, the fact is that the unions have a stranglehold on the automotive business beyond all reasonableness and when a company is about to fail, it is up the unions to save jobs by reducing the company’s costs by reducing wages and benefits until the the company recovers. I guess we’ll see how the unions act in the coming months.
I am a Canadian and while we love and respect our American friends, we do feel they are reaping the result of their financial mis-management and poor vision. Having a debt that equals $33,000.00 for each citizen has to be depressing for everyone. I truly believe that with the right leadership America can pull itself out of this quagmire, but it will mean hard times, living within your means (for a change), saving money and above all, humbling yourselves to the ROW (Rest of the World).
So while the Volt is a great idea, albeit over 100 years old, unless GM can get it to market within the next 6-9 months, they won’t ever.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
#167 Phil Ridge:
I am an American and, alas, I can only agree with you. I can only hope that, with the recent election, we have started upon the path which you so rightly suggest.
It is no accident that Professor Chalmers Johnson titled the third book of hie “Blowback Trilogy” “Nemesis”. She was the Roman goddess charged with seeking out and punishing arrogance and hubris.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
By omitting this statement our adversaries will be aided.
________________________________________________
Pretending other technologies are not available is the problem.
Ford just revealed details on their hybrid Fusion. It’s tuned for greater efficiency than the hybrid Camry. So, hearing a plan from Ford that they’ll invest heavily in ramping up production volume for it is quite reasonable. By the way, Ford is based in Detroit and asking for money too.
GM also has Two-Mode and BAS. They can be used to solve some of GM’s problems… especially considering the loan payback deadline. Too few Volt will come too late to provide the required money in time. Waving the flag won’t distract from that harsh reality.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 3:47 pm
#146 D Lo
Couldn’t agree more that large orders from the Feds with our tax dollars would be an excellent idea. Especially if they contain specs for much improved mileage and EREVs, etc.
As for the bailout…
“Build a man a fire and he will be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.”
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November 22nd, 2008 at 4:06 pm
#168 Noel Park, I am an American, maybe the next administration will bring the change we need (or said to that effect)
The only thing that’s coming here is the Clinton administration is back, whether you believe that was a good time for America or just a left over from the Regan era it doesn’t mater, its not going to be new faces or a new beginning, just more of the same
I also agree with Phil Ridge
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November 22nd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
#146 D Lo & #170 mikeinati:
I completely agree.
#171 Casey:
Well I was a lot better off under Clinton than I am now, so bring it on as far as I’m concerned. Plus, if the new guy has a little more charisma than Clinton and has the self-discipline to keep his zipper up for 8 years, so much the better.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
#172 noel park,
my point was he ran change, not just the same
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November 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Dave K, thanks for the pictures of the LA show.
Some nice looking cars there, gives one a bit of hope.
I find it hard to believe that the future administration would allow the Unions to be thrown under the bus in a “prepackaged” bankruptcy. Stranger things have happened though.
If you want to see a lot of jets, wait till the inauguration…
So what happens next? A new car buyer tax rebate?
RedHHR
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:29 pm
# 82 You need some anger management
#118 Tone it down, my ears are bleeding
#134 Low scum worker hurts man.
#149 Is that veal pigs?
# 168 I ordered the trilogy from Amazon @ $32.00 can’t wait, thx for info.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
I think Wagoner should drive a Malibu to Washingtton, towing the Volt. This Malibu should come from a dealer lot so as to head off any of us saying that it was a special set up by the factory. And before he drives it an independent lab should drive it for 100 miles and certify the milage they got doing highway miles.
It seems that nearly everybody knows about the Volt but few, it would seem know about, or “believe” the milage that other G M cars can attain. And after the meeting he should offer to let members of congress drive the Volt in electric mode.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
166 Gary
Uhhh… are you dense?
==============
I guess I must be.
I did not make mention that this was a production vehicle, which of course you would know, since there are no production Volts.
I will try to be less dense in the future, but I have a feeling my density will shine brightly, again in the near future.
Have a nice day
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November 22nd, 2008 at 6:05 pm
#65 Dave K.
“4>No fuel tank size or total range numbers were available.”
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Couldn’t you have created a distraction (I’m thinking a “Prius rules!” sign with smoke bomb attached), hopped the glass fence and taken a tape measure under the car to give us those fuel tank dimensions?
/thanks for the pictures
Inquiring minds really want to know the size of that fuel tank, . . . . at least I do.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Ok, this is sort of Volt related…in the ‘epic dumbness’ category from the LA autoshow.
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“Volt Racer”
The Chaparral Volt racer is the General Motors West Coast Advanced Design Studio’s concept vehicle entry in the annual Los Angeles Auto Show Design Challenge competition held Thursday, November 20, 2008 in Los Angeles, California. The Chaparral Volt was created for the 2025 revival of the LA Times Grand Prix, addressing clean, renewable and abundant California resources. The racer was inspired by the creative genius of racing legend, Jim Hall – founder of Chaparral cars. The design proposes using advanced EREV propulsion, energy collection, generation and management systems to create an entirely new category of racing – the eco-triathlon. (General Motors Handout)
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/note Volt insignia all over it
Pictures:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/ChaparralVoltFront1.jpg?download=049876
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/ChaparralVoltSide.jpg?download=049869
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/ChaparralVoltPanel.jpg?download=049872
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November 22nd, 2008 at 6:18 pm
#179 Statik,
Volt Racer pics —
__________________
You just like that car cause it’s got your name on it.
Too bad they spelled it wrong.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
#156 noel park
I’m changing my mind again. Bankruptcy will just not work. Not only because there isn’t any financing for a Chapter 11 turnaround, but because bankruptcy is far too cumbersome and time consuming. What did it for me was Joe Nocera’s report that when he talked to bankruptcy experts they were uniformly negative on the alternative.
Having participated in bankruptcies that was my initial reaction but I was persuaded, more by the lack of alternatives than anything else, that it might work. But it really won’t.
Best plan would be to do something in the interim and then kick it down the road for Obama and the new Congress. At the moment we simply can’t lose a million jobs given the current state of the economy. The people advocating the “let them fail” line reminds me of the saying about the difference between a recession and a depression: when you neighbor loses his job it’s a recession; when you lose your job it’s a depression. Most people don’t understand how seriously this could effect them.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
November 22nd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
#167 Phil Ridge – “I am a Canadian and while we love and respect our American friends, we do feel they are reaping the result of their financial mis-management and poor vision.”
Well if the ROW weren’t free riders on the USA for defense purposes then the USA would have plenty of money for a national health care system, which would mean that US manufacturers wouldn’t need to provide health care to their workers, which would mean that the labor costs of UAW workers would be the same as the transplants.
The other point which you seem to be missing is that our friendly neighbors to the north will suffer equally. There is a reason the value of the Canadian dollar moves in tandem with the economic forecasts in the US.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Great News…
I have a good idea…
With all the hubbub about GM, and other big 3, CEOs flying to Washington in personal jets to ask for a bailout,
Wouldn’t it be a great statement(and exposure) if one of the CEOs showed up to next months meeting in Washington with one of the Chevy Volt Mules!!
It would come across very well in the media, It would show their willingness to innovate and their forward thinking
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
#183 DonC
#167 Phil Ridge – “I am a Canadian and while we love and respect our American friends, we do feel they are reaping the result of their financial mis-management and poor vision.”
DonC said, “Well if the ROW weren’t free riders on the USA for defense purposes then the USA would have plenty of money for a national health care system, which would mean that US manufacturers wouldn’t need to provide health care to their workers, which would mean that the labor costs of UAW workers would be the same as the transplants.
The other point which you seem to be missing is that our friendly neighbors to the north will suffer equally. There is a reason the value of the Canadian dollar moves in tandem with the economic forecasts in the US.”
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It’s all good Don, we don’t all feel the same way up here. (Side note: Our Canadian dollar moves more in tandem with oil that anything else, but yes…we both follow similar economic paths, so your right in that we do feel what you do to some degree or another).
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#181 DonC said, “I’m changing my mind again. Bankruptcy will just not work. Not only because….”
—
I didn’t read anything passed this, I am just so mad you drank my free coffee and warmed yourself by my bankruptcy fire
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Side note about the economic situation and Canada.
Our leader has apparently got huge, er…stones, lol. Most ‘professionals’ are still barely able to squeeze the word recession out of their mouths, Harper (our PM), is throwing around the worldwide ‘D’ word and drawing parallels to 1929. I guess he isn’t too worried about ’spooking’ the market. (Kind of nice to have someone just tell you the way it is).
“The financial crisis has become an economic crisis, and the world is entering an economic period unlike, and potentially as dangerous, as anything we have faced since 1929″
I guess he was chewing the fat at some shin-dig in Peru about open trade and whatnot. We signed one of those ‘hot button’ issues with free trade with Columbia yesturday (Reps in US want it, Dems-not so much), then argued about beef with the US again, lol. (always the meat products)
Meantime, in a conference call with reporters, International Trade Minister Stockwell Day said Canada’s handling of the economic crisis is getting a lot of attention from other countries.
“I can tell you the PM is getting a lot of attention around here because it’s in time of troubles that people say: ‘What can we do? What is working?’ and Canada has some things that are working,” he said.
Bush called Harper a good friend and a strong leader, and said they had accomplished a lot together. The president said U.S.-Canada relations are “sometimes complicated,” but strong nevertheless.
“I appreciate your candour, your character and your philosophy,” Bush told Harper.
http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/22112008/2/biz-finance-harper-compares-economic-crisis-1929-apec-pledges-shun.html
EDIT: passed = past in my last post…and no, I still haven’t installed the Google toolbar
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:30 pm
good news keep it up boyz
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November 22nd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
#186 Statik – “EDIT: passed = past in my last post…and no, I still haven’t installed the Google toolbar”
Google won’t help with the homophones but it would help with “yesturday”. LOL
In any event thanks for the update. What is Canada doing? Is there some plan or just sitting tight and hoping it all works out?
Oh yeah, thanks for the coffee!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Vaporware. Nothing we’re ever going to see, or ever be able to buy. Just more bulls%#! General Motors propaganda. And where is the EV1? I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that answer. Grow up people. GM is NEVER going to build or make this car available for PURCHASE at any dealership. Just buy the best automobile you can for the money, and to hell with General Motors. Let ‘em go under!!
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:33 pm
hi john1701a #169,
“By omitting this statement our adversaries will be aided.”
____________________________
Ford is a partner to GM, not an adversary. The having to battle in a costly war for oil is the major adversary. Whether you look at the coalition side as “freedom fighters” or as “resource managers” it’s not a good thing.
CAN-AM 3 wheeler http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/LA%20CAN-AM%20002.jpg
=D~
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Will Ford’s Four Hybrid Models Using The Successful And Proven Nickel Metal Hydride Battery For 2010 Short Circuit The Chevrolet Volt With Its Short Range And Unproven Lithium-ion Battery?
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Will-Fords-Four-Hybrid-Models-Using-The-Successful-And-Proven-Nickel-Metal-Hydride-Battery-For-2010-Short-Circuit-The–28876.html
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Interesting little article asking why Ford is the only one of the big 3 trying catch Toyota.
From my brief scan of the LA auto show, I have to say, the Hybrid Fusion grabs my interest more than most anything else as far as something actually attainable in the near future . . especially when you look at the list of tech innovations (new battery, 47 mph electric mode …..) and gee whiz toys (video display , voice command, 390 watt surround sound, ….).
Really?, this is what GM has to offer in the hybrid category?
http://www.gm.com/vehicles/results.jsp?fuel=hybrid&&seo=goo_|_2008_GMBP_Retention_|_IMG_GMBP_GM_Hybrid_|_GM_Hybrid_DKI_1_|_gm_hybrids
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November 22nd, 2008 at 9:46 pm
191 cont’d,
Ford’s now approaching 40 mpg with a decent sized car. They might catch a few Prius shoppers with that one. Where is GM on this front? Are all the eggs in the Volt basket?
As for the rest of GM’s hybrids, the only thing that remotely interests me is the Vue hybrid. And that’s because of the impressive towing capacity. But to me it had a smaller more “car like” feel to it than the Escape. The 3500 lb towing capacity is a huge bonus though. And would make me think twice for sure if going for a hybrid SUV.
To be clear, I’m still a volt/ EREV and electric car fan. But (IMO) if you’re going to sell many cars in the next 5 or 8 years, you’re going to have to produce top notch hybrids. GM does not seem to be focused in that direction. I guess they’ve got bigger things to worry about.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Good article (IMHO) in Free Press
http://www.freep.com/article/20081117/COL14/811170379/1014/BUSINESS01
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6 myths about the Detroit 3
BY MARK PHELAN • FREE PRESS COLUMNIST • NOVEMBER 17, 2008
The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are six myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world’s largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide — about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and ’90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that “Ford’s reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers.” The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands’ overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that’s killing them now.
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies’ lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan’s full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don’t build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 10:51 pm
*** THE BIG PICTURE ***
General Motors technology comes through to solve a crisis rapidly heading our way – ‘PEAK OIL’. The International Energy Administration released a study of the 400 largest Oil fields last week. Annual depletion is running 9% and we’re not going more than a year, possibly as long as two years before crude shortages threaten our civilization. Thank you General Motors Corp., for rescuing civilization. This vehicle is more imprtant than most people think and perhaps the greatest technological leap since the aytomobile was invested. I’ll be contacting my Congressman, Scott Garrett, asking him to support a General Motors turnaround plan which should be forthcoming shortly. Assuring you, our family will remain loyal General Motors customers in the decades ahead.
Thank you General Motors for your timely technological development of this vehicle.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:01 pm
All this talk about the range, and nobody seems to consider the heater? It was at freezing outside, he must have had the (presumably electric) heater on. I would expect the maximum “electric only” range to be less than 40 miles when you have the heater on. This is one of the many reasons for the “range extender”. Come on, I know I am not the only reader here who has lived in Minnesota.
How cold can it be outside and a Tesla still maintain 68 degrees F inside on a long drive? And what does that do to the range? Many ICE powered cars can’t keep you very warm inside when the outside temp gets much below zero F. GM knows that a decent heater is a must for a “50 state” car. -20 F is common in Minnesota. Fairbanks got below -50 F just this last February.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
191 & 192 carcus
The Ford Fusion/Milan hybrids havnt exactly hit the streets yet either so CURRENTLY all Ford has is ONE hybrid model – the Escape
GM on the other hand has offered over the past 5 years :
- 2003- present 2-mode hybrid transist busses (over 2500 in USA, more world wide)
- 2004 – 2008 Parallel Hybrid Truck (PHT) fleet only
- 2007 – 09 Saturn Vue Greenline BAS hybrid (mild hybrid with auto start/stop and mild electric “assist” only)
- 2008 – 09 Saturn Aura Greenline BAS hybrid
- 2008 – 09 Chevy Malibu BAS hybrid
- 2008 – 09 2-Mode Hybrid Tahoe
- 2008 – 09 2-Mode Hybrid Yukon
- 2009 2-Mode Hybrid Escalade
- 2009 2-Mode Hybrid Vue (with a plug-in model arriving as a 2010 model)
So what exactly are you talking about?
Now dont go talking smack that the BAS or 2-mode hybrids arent worth sh*t because I own a 2M Yukon and I can tell you they are excellent! I’ve also driven the BAS Malibu and Vue for extended periods and they were excellent mpg in the city but with only a 172HP 2.4L they dont have much for fully-loaded passing power.
I agree the VUE 2-mode looks VERY promising as I should still be able to pull my 19′ boat with it, (unlike the Escape) So perhaps I’ll trade my full-size for it when it becomes a plug-in for improved commuting, but for now I’m very happy with the much improved MPG of my 2-mode Yukon as compared to my 2007 1/2 ton.
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November 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 pm
195 Jim
A bigger concern IMO is the effects of sub-zero ambient temperatures on the battery itself! This affects all current model hybrids as well. If you’ve seen any battery performance data (capacity) weighted against temperatue, (for either NiMh or Li-Ion) the reduction in output is significant.
This effects everyone not just GMs of course. The Prius sucks in cold weather as well, falling back on almost 100% ICE power until battery temps increase during operation. I’ve noticed it on my 2-mode Yukon as well. Since things cooled off here in mid Novemeber my first electric only cycle has been significantly reduced. But as the battery warms (through normal charge/discharge cycles) the Mode1 EV operation is constantly increasing in duration.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 12:13 am
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway.
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Since they don’t offer a 50 MPG vehicle, reality is that there product-line consists of guzzlers. No amount of spin is going to change that. 29-33 MPG highway is not something to be proud of in 2009. We need a large quantity of affordable high-efficiency vehicles right away. It’s that simple.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 am
The Prius sucks in cold weather as well, falling back on almost 100% ICE power until battery temps increase during operation.
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That’s extrapolation makes sense, but is not correct. The battery-pack is used immediately, confirmed by the Multi-Display indicator. The reason for heavy ICE use initially is to reach full operating temperature quickly for the emission system requirement.
To deliver SULEV & AT-PZEV emission-ratings, the catalytic-converter must be hot. Without that heat, exhaust cleansing isn’t possible.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 12:38 am
To Captain Jack Sparrow;
Well Captain Jack, it may be true the car will travel 250 miles with the range extender, but that is 210 miles traved on fuel bought at the gas pump. Thats what were trying to eliminate, the need for the gas pump, right? Wait a second, I know your gonna say part of that 210 miles will be the result of the battery charging system. Still, the car needs to be plugged in every night just to get 40 miles worth of electricity. At the moment gas prices have dipped, that wont last. Eventually there will be no gas to buy. As I slop my mouth a little more, I hope your not drooled upon. GM did not think of the people who need a car like this, the most. The 40 miles is doomed. Your personal verbal attack does not do you justice, you have a much nicer side.
Thank you,
Bob T.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 am
Nevermind!!
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November 23rd, 2008 at 12:49 am
I think everyone who compares the Tesla to the Volt should actually know something about he Tesla and the Volt. Its like comparing a Corvette to a Neon. Two completely different cars built for two completely different reasons with corresponding price ranges. The Tesla may go further on a charge, but you need more then one if you have a family. If I remember correctly the Tesla is mostly made of carbon fiber and other super light expensive materials. Weight has a lot to do with range and family cars are heavier then sports cars. I think the Volt is great and if GM executives could take (dare I say it?) a bit of a pay cut, they may even be able to sell it for a decent price.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 3:45 am
198 John1701a
Well since NOBODY produces a 50mpg car then what you are saying makes total sense! LOL
Maybe edjumacate yourself on :”realistic” fuel economy ratings for the way real people drive, not Pre-ASS fanboi hype or hyper-miler BS.
Here’s a couple links
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml
Let me know when you find one…
At extremely cold ambients the battery is used initially just to start the ICE, but after that- not so much. You pretty little display doesnt show you much, try using a ” real” scan tool if you wish to see what it;s really doing…
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November 23rd, 2008 at 6:32 am
November 23rd, 2008 at 6:52 am
Let me know when you find one…
___________________________________
The update to that list is only a few months away.
Face reality already. GM must deliver something in that category. The market is rapidly growing for genuine high-efficiency vehicles and the need to move forward is urgent.
How many times has it been claimed that Volt will deliver 50 MPG after the battery-pack is depleted? If so, why the heck won’t a “lite” version of Volt be offered? A smaller battery-pack would drop price quite a bit and still deliver a competitive vehicle.
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November 23rd, 2008 at 1:44 pm
#193 Curtis
Excellent post. Great info for Congress to consider.
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November 24th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
America needs an all-electric car at a price it can afford…with a range that gets the commuter to work and back with a stop at the grocery store to pick up milk. The company willing to put executive pay and perks on the back-burner will rule the next generation of auto manufacturing. Wonder who has enough sense to build the 21st century Model T? Note to the execs: you have to give something to get something…really.
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November 30th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Robert Lutz was featured as a ‘contestant’ on NPR’s Saturday airing of the program Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me!
http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=35
He was very interesting and very funny.
He didn’t do very well on the three-question quiz–he missed all three. Hopefully, his performance on the quiz has nothing to do with his performance at GM and on the Volt.
Listen to the reaction of the audience as he speaks about the Volt. He’s got to know there’s serious interest in the concept and the car.
regards,
dale
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November 30th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Looks like they will have to pack more dense cells in that T-shaped battery. In 18 months the power should DOUBLE according to moore’s law.
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