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Detroit 3 CEOs Chastised by Congress: Loan Hopes Dim as Senate Cancels Vote

November 19th, 2008 | Posted in: Financial, Politics

Today the CEOs of GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and the UAW president spent a second day testifying on Capitol Hill. This time before a House committee. They continued to plead their case of catastrophic national economic repercussions if they were allowed to fail.

In response, the CEOs were chided by congress for taking corporate jets to Washington, and only one of the three admitted willingness to accept $1 salary in exchange for aid. That same executive, Robert Nardelli of Chrysler, also admitted bankruptcy was an option strongly considered for his company but felt likely to fail. He admitted Chrysler only has about $6 billion left.

Rick Wagoner of GM wouldn’t state exactly how much time is left before GM will run out of money but when pressed by a congressman said “I don’t believe we have the luxury of a lot of time,” and “(in terms of an exact date) I can’t tell you that for certain.” He even conceded he would resign if required for the loans, but felt that was not the best solution.

Wagoner also express willingness to take the funds from the retooling loans, and indeed the Energy department stated it might be possible to get the automaker that money before the end of the year.

GM is asking for $10 to $12 billion of the $25 billion.

In the end, though, it seemed unlikely Detroit would get the money based on the governmental stalemate over the source of the funds, whether it be TARP or retooling loans, with Republicans favoring the latter.

Senator Chris Dodd, chairman of the banking committee, said chances of a resolution were “slim.” The congress is expected to break at the end of this week although could possibly reconvene in December.

It was just reported that Senate democrats have canceled voting on the bill that was planned for today. Instead Republican leaders are working on reworking the $25 billion in retooling loans, and a vote on that could occur tomorrow and may be tacked on to a bill extending jobless benefits.

The tension continues, and our Volt may very well hang in the balance.

Source (CNN)

Posted by: Lyle

107 Responses to “Detroit 3 CEOs Chastised by Congress: Loan Hopes Dim as Senate Cancels Vote”

Jay Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:17 pm

A triumph of ideology over reality.

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OhmExcited Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

From SAF: Ford CEO Mulally’s corporate jet is a perk included for both he and his wife as part of his employment contract along with a $28 million salary last year. Mulally actually lives in Seattle, not Detroit. The company jet takes him home and back on weekends.

Where is the accountability? Talk about a theater of the absurd.

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carcus Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

If GM got the loans (and survived) would they bring back a lithium-ion EV1 as part of the retooling?

doh!

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Gary Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:28 pm

Dang.

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rickj Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Why can’t I buy an affordable highway-capable electric commuter car! Give the $25 billion to Th!nk. I’ll settle for a Th!nk City until they get the 5 seater Ox with a 120 mile range off the assembly line.

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Gary Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

And only now, the current Republican administration is trying to appear fiscally responsible? Why did they first waste so much money on “artificial wars” overseas?

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noel park Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

IMHO, the sorry performance of these three in the hearings, and the discussion of their disgusting compensation packages and perks, gives Congress and the Bush Administration all the cover they could ever ask for to just do nothing and let them twist in the wind.

The culture of corporate America is revealed as venal, self-serving and immoral.

Didn’t I read here the other day the Wagoner’s compensation last year was more than the top 10 executives of Honda combined? For shame.

And for those who say that executive compensation is small potatoes in the overall cost structure, I say that perception is all. How can you expect rank and file workers to want to sacrifice when these “people” are living like Medici princes, all the while presiding over the destruction of one of the most powerful muanufacturing empires the world has ever seen?

Alas, our beloved country!!!

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statik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

From the thread topic:

“In the end though it seemed unlikely Detroit would get the money based on the governmental stalemate over the source of the funds, whether it be TARP or retooling loans, with Republicans favoring the latter”
—————–

There is a stalemate on the TARP…well it is not a stalemate, it is a flat out loser.

However the ‘retooled’ loan ammendment is just sitting on the back burner already rubber stamped and reday to go…just wait for it,the world changes overnight sometimes.

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omnimoeish Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

that’s pretty funny they asked if they would be willing to sell their corporate jets. Only one would work for $1 until it turns around? Well, we shall see.

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Matt P Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

I disagree about the Volt “hanging in the balance.” GM in chapter 11 could get it to market easily. Investors would totally line up. Your 2014 Tahoe is not so certain. Your badge engineered minivans – not looking good. 12 Buick dealerships per square mile? Ouch.

One result of this might be a real small car from Detroit, however. Welcome to Europe, circa 1960!

Say, when did the the fuel taxes in the US start to drift vastly below those in Europe? Blame that on congress. Also, ship all the displaced workers to live in Georgetown too.

Spread the love! This is a country mistake being taken out on one poor city. Congress could have easily inched fuel taxes up and they would have neatly avoided this problem.

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Paul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

I’m looking forward to seeing where we are twelve months from now.

These are truly interesting times….

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Guy Incognito Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Never wear bling when you’re trying to hit someone up for money….
I told those guys not to bring the private jets guys, I told them to fly coach.

How were the in-flight movies guys?

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Paul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Doh!!!

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butters Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Behind all the problems of mismanagement, short-sighted product development, and the credit crisis is a more fundamental problem: overproduction.

We simply don’t need or want as many vehicles as the auto industry pumps out. The entire industry, Toyota and Honda included, financed excessive growth. The debt obligations lock them into a growth strategy and prevent them from right-sizing their operations to match demand.

The auto industry needs to get smaller. The auto industry needs to shed jobs. We have to stop thinking about how to keep the industry growing and employing. We have to think about transitioning some of the facilities and workers toward the kinds of production we do need.

We need more manufacturing capacity for automotive batteries, for example. An engine plant can be retooled to produce geothermal heat pumps. An truck assembly plant might be converted to produce electric rail cars. The educated, semi-skilled workforce typical of American manufacturing can shift tasks quicker than in other parts of the world.

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If U Fly the American Flag Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

Thank you for letting Congress know that you think the American auto industry is a part of the fabric of America.

Here is a copy of the actual message you sent to let them know how you feel about saving this critical American industry.

“I am a consumer who believes it is important to have an American car industry in this country. I am asking for your help.

Some critics call helping America’s automobile industry a bailout. I strongly believe this is an investment to rebuild our nation’s economic engine. If we do nothing, the future our country faces during this downturn is clear. We will see even more economic upheaval, communities will lose substantial businesses and revenue, and thousands of jobs will disappear. The negative impact will be worse than anything we’ve seen in our lifetime.

We are at a crossroads, where given the opportunity, our nation’s auto manufacturers can lead once again. In 2010, we will see labor and health care reforms kick in. We will also see new electric vehicles introduced that will help reduce our nation’s dependence on foreign oil. And if it weren’t for the recent credit crunch, these companies would be on the road to succeed.

If Congress does not act, it will be the shortest and fastest road from recession to depression. Our economy is suffering enough. Please help prevent further job losses and devastation to our communities. I am asking that you give our nation’s car companies the opportunity to complete this turnaround.

We cannot afford to lose this cornerstone of our economy. We should not depend on other nations for our manufacturing capabilities or new technologies. And we do not want to contribute to an even deeper collapse that will leave too many people facing further economic uncertainty.”

Watch the You-Tube Video at:

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

E-mail your representatives in Congress by clicking on “I‘m a concerned American” and tell them that you support the Loan to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

And or Call 1-866-927-2233 to be connected to your representatives by phone.

Thanks for supporting America, GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Also please forward to fellow Americans.

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jediwompa Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:31 pm

I truly hope no money is given to The Big Three, even in loan form. These three have failed to adapt to market conditions, failed to deal with the labor rates, and have failed at being managed. The big threes labor rate is about 73 dollars an hour, compared to foreign competitors in the south such as BMW, Toyota, Kia and Nissan at below 50 an hour (http://seekingalpha.com/article/105061-should-we-really-bail-out-the-big-three-automakers-with-73-20-per-hour-labor). How can you expect to compete with that? Maybe if the were to move to some At Will states they could cut out some of their inflated labor rates.

If the big three were to go down, their few quality lines of cars and yet to be released cars would more than likely be picked up by competitors or investors. Let them fail, they are not needed. There are many other car companies and many green start up car companies out there that will fill the gaps. Hopefully this will allow for the market to adjust to produce the correct number of cars needed for consumers, not have stockpiles of cars in the desert. Let these new motivated and energetic companies thrive and innovate, they are not locked into legacy problems that come with the economies of scale The Big Three have failed to navigate. America is transitioning to a professional/intelligence based economy, not a manufacturing economy. People need to wake up to this fact and embrace it, go get the education required for this transition as the opportunities for doing so are plentiful. America can and will not be the best at everything.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:33 pm

All the money these guys make could have been put into making better cars.

I for one am disgusted how they can make so much money while simultaneously crushing their respective companies. The recession can’t be blamed on them, but certainly poor planning can.

I still say put me in charge. Wagoner will be the very first to get fired.
How pompous and arrogant can one be for flying in on the private jet while at the same time, crying poor. I am very displeased.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:35 pm

#7 Noel Park.

Yup. You nailed it. 100% agreed.

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Jabroni Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

Watching these events unfold this week has been surreal. Of all the times for our major automakers to need money, it had to happen after the gargantuan 700 billion dollar banking fiasco bailout. If it weren’t for this big expenditure, I believe Congress would have authorized the 25 billion easily. Why couldn’t they have listened to me and not agreed to the bank bailout?

Then as a scenic backdrop to all of this, we have the retarded LA Auto show happening.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

#15 If U Fly the American Flag Says:
Some critics call helping America’s automobile industry a bailout. I strongly believe this is an investment to rebuild our nation’s economic engine
————-

Nope. Not while the three leaders above are taking so much money from their companies.

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RB Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:38 pm

There is a symbolism around coming in a corporate jet but, really, it is not sensible to make any decisions pro or con on anything based on how people got to Washington. They used the jet because the company owns a jet, as do most all of the big US corporations.

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pstoller78 Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:39 pm

#14

Good points and some good suggestions.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

#21 RB says,
There is a symbolism around coming in a corporate jet but, really, it is not sensible to make any decisions pro or con on anything based on how people got to Washington. They used the jet because the company owns a jet, as do most all of the big US corporations.

——-
True but I also see it differently.
I see it as rich people flaunting their money on one side, and begging for money on the other. The begging is so they can keep up appearances on the rich side. It just doesn’t look good to a tax payer like me.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 7:51 pm

Grizzly, I haven’t seen you in a while.
Are you well? Perhaps taking a break?

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RB Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:01 pm

#23 Rashiid

The symbolism is awful, I completely agree. Still, whatever loan is extended, if one is, really needs to be based on a judgment of what is good for the usa, not the particular three people who are ceos. If the loan has as a condition that these particular people have to go, or the airplanes have to go, so be it. The other side is that in a big business scattered across the country it is sensible for the company to own an airplane, and once the company owns it and pays the pilots and the maintenance, it is not excessive to use it. I agree that Wagoner and others were dense not to understand the symbolism. I just don’t see that as a basis for a decision, whether up or down.

What they should have done is drive to DC in a Cobalt

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reality Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

to 21. RB

Back in the day at Intel, Craig Barrett (CEO) used to fly coach and expected all the VPs and other muckety mucks to do the same. This was to show that he wasn’t too good to save money. I believe a security guy would fly with him as protection, but they both flew in the back with the peasants.

Just because your company has a private jet doesn’t mean you have to use it.

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RB Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:17 pm

26 reality — I understand and agree. The same frugality was how the ceo of Lowe’s Home Improv is said to have operated for years and years while the company grew and grew. He also kept his own salary very low, relatively. My only point is that the bailout, if any, is an issue of national interest (or not, depending on one’s view), and we don’t want to be overly influenced by symbols.

There are bigger fish to fry.

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Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

NEWS 11/19/08:

Honda announced that they can’t produce enough Fit to meet consumer demand.

________________________________

Do you understand this GM? Can’t produce enough Fit to meet demand.
Cruze… Volt… where are they?

Earlier this year Bob Lutz announced, “No one will be getting a Volt before 2010″. A month later GM announced, “The release of the Cruze will be delayed 6 months”.

Bob might just as well have said, “GM will not get profit before 2010″ and “Profit for GM will be delayed 6 months”.

_______________________________

A final thought: The CEO’s of the big three just don’t seem to understand that they are now in the political arena. They need to act like good boys (for a short while) and play the game. When they are asked if they will cut to the bone they need to reply, “Yes Sir”. When they are asked about the fleet of corporate jets they need to respond, “We are planning on keeping one, and selling the others at auction”.

Why don’t these ’smart’ guys get it? They know that the upcoming bankruptcy will mean they are out of a job.

When my boss says he has had a complaint and that I need to make an adjustment…I reply, “Okay, it won’t happen again, I’ll make sure it’s done the right way”.

Why not just play the political game?

I honestly don’t get it.

=D~

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250volt Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

Hey… Here’s an idea. How about Wagoner putting his butt in a Chevy volt mule, e-flex vehicle or whatever….. and drive to D.C. Same for the CEO of Chrysler. I think that would make a very powerful statement. What more powerful statement could they make than to arrive in the product that GM and Chrysler touts as the future and the savior of the companies and our economy? Me thinks they missed a HUGE opportunity. Arriving in corporate jets was way stupid. Look, when you are jumping into the water with hungry sharks why would you hang a bloody steak around your neck? It is arrogance, ignornance, indifference? Whatever the answer to that question is it means they just don’t get it and need to go.
What say you?
As I write this I’m watching the snipet of Mitt Romney on CNN and I gotta say that I agree with his proposal of managed bankruptcy. These clowns need a dose of reality. A serious dose!! Bankruptcy is the way iy needs to go. Looks like it’s gonna happen and so we need to steel ourselves for the blood letting that is sure to follow but hey…………….. I’ve said it before and here it is again, it’s been a long time coming. This shouldn’t have been a real surprise when you are able to look at how thier business model was set up. We need to take off the rose colored glasses and see the situation for what it is. It’s dismal and it’s gonna hurt like hell. I truely believe that when all is said and done whatever rises out of the ashes will be a better and stronger company(ies).
It has to ahppen and better to do it now than let it drag on.
Let the floggings begin!!

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Daveo Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:20 pm

Open Letter to the Big 3 CEO’s:

Sell the f***ing jets! Security reasons?!?!? GTFO…The average American has absolutely NO IDEA who you are and could care less while trying to get to their own destination in the airport.
We have 300M people in this country – certainly we can find 3 others that can do a better job than any of you.

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Bintoo Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:22 pm

So Bush and his Oil buddies heard about the volt and now they are going to let GM fail.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

RB. I don’t dispute that the jets were the best way to get there.
But gosh the symbolism is so bad. I wonder how many people are calling their Senators right now and complain about it.

CNN.com has an article on the home page about it titled,
“Auto CEOs flew private jets to seek bailout”

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rickj Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

“Just because your company has a private jet doesn’t mean you have to use it.”

And just because you have a company, doesn’t mean you need a private jet.

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George K Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

#14 butters
“The auto industry needs to get smaller. ”

Agreed. There is no easy way out of this. From what we’ve heard so far, the negotiators, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, plus the Big 2.8 Chairmen, there’s not enough giving up stuff on the table. Salaries, etc. by all parties are unsustainable. So, it seems, is headcount. And, finally, perhaps the obvious, that they need to pair down to the Big 1.8.

The plane hasn’t enough fuel to make it to the nearest airport, and they need to begin to shed some weight, or they all crash together.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6783/is_/ai_n28556040
the idea’s the same.

=D~~~~

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vincent Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

Simply Pathetic.
Did you see Ricks face when asked if he is taking a personal jet back home or a commercial air line.
The fool just doesn’t get it.

All the management must go now.

Again…take 12 of us from here. We will do far better.

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Mark Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:34 pm

31, Bintoo.

“So Bush and his Oil buddies heard about the volt and now they are going to let GM fail.”

I am too, wondering if this is part of the reason that GM didn’t get any loans..to let GM die would mean zero chance of the Volt coming onto showroom floors.

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Jake Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:35 pm

I miss the days when we used to just talk about the nuts and bolts of our beloved Volt!

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Joe OBrien Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

I called this back in 2002 when they were killing the EV1 program in favor of the Hummer. Said this is the start of the end of GM. They made the dumbest decision ever. And from then on they have been looked at as oafish manufacturers of gas guzzling junk.

I called them a dinosaur back then and said, “remember what happened to the dinosaurs? They went extinct because they refused to evolve, or didn’t know how”

Sadly, looks the same with the American auto industry. They only just started to try to evolve when they were at the brink of failure with the Volt. Hopefully they are able to restructure, and come out as a smaller company and live off of the profits from higly effecient small cars. At least for GM, I don’t think there is any glimmer of hope for truck heavy Chrysler, and clueless Ford.

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Ed M Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

We’re all being too hard on the automakers. Its not their fault that congress passed a lot of laws that favored union greed. Who do you think the unions leaders are thinking of when they extort money from companies; themselves, the workers, the companies ? If you didn’t say themselves, you don’t have a good understanding of how unions work.

Congress should take a lot of the blame, if you ask those 3 questions about congress its also overwhelmingly themselves.

I also didn’t see congress trying to do anything to head off the current crisis, they were too busy trying to get elected. Some saw this mess coming for sometime, John McCain for example and tried to do something about it 2 years ago but congress just ignored it.

A pinch of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure.
I would also give the media a fair share of the blame. They were too busy going gah-gah over Obama to report the truly important news.

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Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

hi Mark #36,

“…to let GM die would mean zero chance of the Volt coming onto showroom floors.”

____________________________

I respectfully disagree. The HUGE exposure of Volt news to the world will create a massive vacuum of E-REV demand. I expect a Volt-like small truck and jeep-like vehicle by 2011. I place a 95% chance on this date.

If the sub compact, misery box, underpowered Fit is the current HUGE seller even with $2 per gallon pump prices. Then the more economic, well powered, comfortably sized E-REV is big money waiting to be deposited into the automotive industry bank account.

BTW: I am sticking with my prior prediction of S+P 790 being the bottom. And I am continuing to invest in recycling and clean coal technology. More EV and E-REV vehicles will mean more electrical power demand which will support clean coal use. What do you think statik?

The E-REV race is on.

=D~

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carcus Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

#28 Dave K.,

“Why don’t these ’smart’ guys get it? They know that the upcoming bankruptcy will mean they are out of a job.
When my boss says he has had a complaint and that I need to make an adjustment…I reply, “Okay, it won’t happen again, I’ll make sure it’s done the right way”.
Why not just play the political game?
I honestly don’t get it.”

____________________________________________________

I’ll take a stab at that one. Let’s see here . . . . .

Rick Wagoner Bio:

G. Richard Wagoner (born 1953) made corporate history in 2000 when he became president and chief executive officer (CEO) of the General Motors Corporation at the age of 47. The appointment made Wagoner the youngest person to head GM, the world’s largest automaker, since Billy Durant, who founded the company in 1908. Upon taking the reins at GM, where he has been employed for his entire career, Wagoner instituted several business – side innovations that have increased the company’s competitiveness in the world market.
Wagoner was born on February 9, 1953, in Wilmington, Delaware, and grew up in Richmond, Virginia where his father, George, worked as a mid – level executive for the Eskimo Pie ice cream company. The younger Wagoner (the G. in his name stands for George) served as student body president while in high school. After graduation, he attended Duke University, his father’s alma mater, in Raleigh – Durham, North Carolina, where he played forward on the basketball team during the 1971 – 72 season. He was elected president of his fraternity and graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa in 1975 with a degree in economics. Wagoner proceeded immediately to Harvard University’s Master of Business Administration (MBA) program, from which he graduated in 1977.

http://www.answers.com/topic/g-richard-wagoner

From his interviews, I always get the idea that Wagoner thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room.
I don’t think he’s the kind of guy that takes advice or admits mistakes.

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ANON Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:53 pm

Hmm… am I the only one who understands time value of money. With the types of salaries the CEO’s of GM, Chrysler, and Ford make, do you really think it is fiscally responsible to waste time going to the airport, waiting on security, and waiting even more time to board and unboard. Yes, flying with the rest of us would make a lovely symbolic gesture and would also help there appearences with the American people. This is the problem with this country. People can’t see past there hatred for those who are better off financially and all logic seems to go out the window. There is no more important time for these CEO’s to save every minute they can in order to spend there time trying to save there prospective companies. People may say they are horrible “managers”, “planners”, etc. This only appears so because they are outdone (even if so slightly) by there competition. Defining the rules of the games before your competition is essential to staying in business. Having this forsight while continuing to try and grow a firm over the short term is a tricky balance. One example of where GM did make a mistake is scoffing at the prius hybrid. Yes, there is a large number of there customer base who would like to flaunt how environmentally concious they are or who want to get off of foreign oil.

PS
I could not give a ** about saving the environment because I do not believe it to be in great danger. I also do not care or think it is nearly as important to our economy as others to get off of foreign oil. However, I do believe in fiscal responsibility and getting the most for my money. Therefore I drive a 1988 Honda CRX HF that I restored from the junkyard. Total cost: $300. 2008 EPA Combined Fuel Economy: 45MPG. Additional labor, resources and parts to put the car into service: ~$100 in parts and 4-5 hrs of my time. Although I care the least about environmentalism of anyone I know, do to my cheapskate mentality, I am also the most environmentally active person I know.

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Unni Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Ohh, they still want big pay cheques from the “trap” money too.

If GM falls, which one you will choose ?

1) Handover volt to crysler and give loan only for Crysler (make sure he takes only a dollar and he cut all unwanted expenses and drive the company properly )

2) Handover volt to Toyota or Honda

3) Handover volt to Hundai or Kia

4) Handover volt to Tata ( they already have hydrogen cell bus with help of ISRO and Indica EV – all electric car – in test in Norway )

5) GM push an unfinished volt ( cost $40,000 which gets 40 miles per battery ( you have to change battery after 40 miles (cost $15,000 ) and takes only $40 per re-charging of battery – you can do 4 recharges in 40 miles ).

6) Let Nasa take over Volt and make design available as OPEN platform ( like linux ) so that any car maker can produce it ( like distributions of linux ) and charge only for the production/marketing costs . Let TARP money (25Billion ) go to NASA funding so that they can run volt in next space mission . — cool idea ??

NB: For idea 6 you can choose battery for vendor A/B because its open specs , same for all parts only specs and design will be published by NASA and all parts by all vendors will be interoperable. If vendor want improvement , He has to make it a standard and make sure its good and accepted.

Can i put a pool on this ?

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statik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

#40 Dave K

I respectfully disagree. The HUGE exposure of Volt news to the world will create a massive vacuum of E-REV demand. I expect a Volt-like small truck and jeep-like vehicle by 2011. I place a 95% chance on this date.

If the sub compact, misery box, underpowered Fit is the current HUGE seller even with $2 per gallon pump prices. Then the more economic, well powered, comfortably sized E-REV is big money waiting to be deposited into the automotive industry bank account.

BTW: I am sticking with my prior prediction of S+P 790 being the bottom. And I am continuing to invest in recycling and clean coal technology. More EV and E-REV vehicles will mean more electrical power demand which will support clean coal use. What do you think statik?

The E-REV race is on.

=D~

—————————————–

You don’t really want to know.
(=

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vincent Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

Lyle,
How about placing a stock ticker on the top of the blog for GM, Chrysler and Ford along with Oil per barrel?

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Joe OBrien Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

#39, Ed,

you just don’t get it. if you don’t build fuel effecient vehicles and fuel costs over $4 a gallon, People will not want to buy the 24mpg vehicles. Congress has nothing to do with them selling old tech for as long as possible.

You’d rather just vent you election ignorance instead.

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carcus Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

41 Add,

To be clear. I have no problem with CEO’s flying corporate jets. I do have a problem with bankrupt CEO’s flying to washington in their Gulfstreams to ask for money.

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RB Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:09 pm

#32 Rashiid said “But gosh the symbolism is so bad. I wonder how many people are calling their Senators right now and complain about it.”
===========================================

I totally agree with you — a bunch of rich guys out of touch with how their actions are seen by most people.

At the same time, the thinking part of my brain tells me that whatever happens is not going to affect the ceo lifestyle very much, as they are as individuals very well off. There are thousands of others, ordinary hard-working people in and around the auto industry who have never been allowed near a corporate jet. whose lives will be turned upside down.

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carcus Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Laid off Detroit worker to wife (/husband, whatever): “Honey, how do you feel about moving to St. Petersburg?”

GM’s New 300 Million Dollar Plant in Russia Assembles Chevrolet Captiva and Opel Antara
http://www.atzonline.com/index.php;do=show/site=a4e/sid=939665544924c96eca990194505354/alloc=1/id=8691

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LeoK Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:28 pm

Jabroni @ 19: The automakers would not need a loan if the financial markets had not crashed. If the financial markets had not crashed the government would not have made a $700B infusion. AND the real problem with the economy right now is that our GOVERNMENT FAILED TO PUT ANY ACCOUNTABILITY into the $700B they approved. It is a fiasco.

The private jets did not look good. I agree they should have each driven up in a current production vehicle that gets over 30mpg. Some of these congressmen and senators have not been in a domestic auto for 30 years – and their comments show it.

The Auto CEO’s have the unfortunate position of being the first group of US companies seeking help from the government. This is only the first wave. The financial markets are frozen – and until some of that $700B is forced into the credit markets our economy is doomed. Jobs continue to be lost in EVERY industry. Thousands of retailers are hanging on by their fingernails trying to make it through the holiday season. Just wait until January – there will be VACANCY signs up on every Main St and Mall in America. These are challenging, gut-wrenching times in America.

It is amazing how short-sighted our media is – today’s news is all about the Detroit 3 CEO’s and their private jets. What happened to all the Bank and Finance company CEO’s that plundered the first proceeds of our taxpayer $700B to payoff BILLIONS of dollars in past bonuses? What about the Billions that have been used by Banks to buy other banks and just get bigger – so they can pay their executives more $$$?

There are hidden agenda’s everywhere you turn – let’s take a look:

George Bush = protecting big oil.

Sen Richard Shelby, from Alabama, has been the most vocal opponent of any move to loan money to the Detroit 3 = protecting the jobs he’s created in Alabama by giving HUGE tax breaks to Honda, Mercedes and Hyundai to build plants there (adding to our excess capacity here in the US). He would like nothing more than see the domestic competition go away.

US Senate & Congress = they now realize they made a fatal mistake in granting $700B open ended to the financial world. Nothing good has happened with this money. If it was circulating in the economy, GM or any other company could seek out the financing it needs at market rates. Consumers could take out a loan at market rates and buy a GM or Ford vehicle. Small business could get the working capital line of credit they need and keep people employed. BUT NO… this $700B is not circulating. The auto companies cannot get financing. With all the talk of bankruptcy, banks are not willing to loan money on a domestic vehicle. And small businesses across America are having to lay-off good people because they can’t get the funds they need.

SOMEONE in Washington has to be held accountable.

Today’s scapegoat are the domestic auto CEO’s. Tomorrow will be someone else. Let’s STOP the insanity and begin to solve the core problem: a lack on capital flowing through our economy.

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Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:29 pm

hi RB #48,

“… out of touch …”

______________

The only thing that will relay this point to the board is an old fashioned house cleaning and restructuring. I used to work in a union and I didn’t especially like it. Let the good, smart, dependable workers excel and the others remain behind. The money and rank will come to those who deserve it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

hi statik #44,

“You don’t really want to know.”

_______________

Please tell us.

=D~

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Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:45 pm

hi LeoK #50,

“If the financial markets had not crashed the government would not have made a $700B infusion.”

______________________________

It’s a game Leo. Midway through the 08′ campaign Obama had taken a lead and wasn’t giving it up. The Republicans had called him “Muslim”, “Terrorist”, “a foreigner who shouldn’t be eligible”, “A religious radical”, and other names that I don’t wish to mention here.

So, what did the Republicans have left in the arsenal to stop the Obama express?

They needed a controversy, kind of like the twin towers/shock and awe ploy. They needed a reason to change the vote to favor McCain.

So the current administration placed Obama in a position to either favor a $700 billion bail out, or to oppose it. If Obama had opposed it, the momentum would have been turned to McCain by simply stating: “See this young Chicago politician. We told you, he’s a terrorist, he wants all of you Americans to suffer as you go broke”. The Republican strategists banked on Obama fighting to stop the bail out in order to support his plans of national health care and the rebuilding of infrastructure. And I give the Republicans credit for this brilliant plan. A very good chess move.

So , even as the Democratic Congress opposed a bail out, Obama was quick on his feet and supported it.

This was the Republicans final bullet.

This entire scenario was deciphered by the elect Obama team. And unfortunately was the necessary evil the nation had to deal with to ensure the securing of the office of President.

My political affiliation is “decline to state”. I usually vote more republican than Democrat. I voted for prop 8 “against gay marriage”. And I support Governor Schwarzenegger’s efforts to severely cut the state budget and to push hard for ‘green’ technology.

I plan on buying an American E-REV. And I can wait for as long as it takes to have one delivered.

=D~

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Tery Jagger Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:50 pm

Make them get rid of the unions and all their extreme benefits that we have all been paying lots of extra cash for all these years that has pushed the cost of a new car to something that few people can afford anymore. Put the pay in line with the companies like Toyota & Honda as well as the benefits. That way they can quality produce cars on equal footing so that the prices can be competitive.

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jbfalaska Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:51 pm

Wholehearted disgust. Unpatriotic, selfish, self-serving, only the poor and middle-class suffer. Brings us back to the days of Teddy Roosevelt when he took on the Trusts and the dark side of Capitalism run astray. Bailout if the CEO’s accept limits on compensation. I’m getting tired of hearing the super wealthy run companies preposterously into the ground and then ask everyone else to sacrific while they jet in for their money.

The communists are going to win if this keeps up.

Retired US Air Force veteran disgusted at the “Captains of Industry” over the last two decades.

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jbfalaska Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 9:58 pm

As a Buick owner of 3 Regals, I have to say management was poor at the big 3. Paying Tiger Woods $80,000,000 per year to huck Buicks was crazy. Selling 50,000 per year divided by $80 million. Makes no sense. That’s $1,600 per car to pay an already very well paid athlete to smile at the camera. I did take up golf though.

Just sad.

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Cautious Fan Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:00 pm

Is there some deeper meaning to the “Detroit 2.8″ besides one isn’t whole. Where does this come from?

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Blake Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

Mr. Wagoner wrote an opinion piece in Today’s Wall Street Journal. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122705733362939557.html

Besides Wagoner not taking any blame and patting himself on the back for all the changes GM has made, he made this statement speaking of the Volt and the Cruze.

“Development and production of these new vehicles here in the U.S. will maintain our nation’s competitive standing and provide good paying jobs here at home. It also ensures that the U.S. does not trade its current dependence on imported oil for a future dependence on imported batteries and technology.”

Now if I’m not mistaken, isn’t GM outsourcing the Volt’s battery to a foreign supplier while its European and Asian rivals are investing heavily and own a big stake in their battery suppliers? Isn’t this creating dependence on imported batteries and technology?

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Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

hi jbfalska #55,

“…take up golf…”

______________________________

Didn’t all of this mess start after Tiger Woods entered surgery for his torn knee?

The name “Volt” now has nearly the same world wide recognition as “Tiger Woods”.

=D~

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Jim Adcock Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:10 pm

Personally I am telling my senators to vote against any bailout as long as Bob Lutz remains at GM telling the world that HE doesn’t believe in global warming!

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Ed M Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Joe OBrien #46

I respectfully disagree, the Detroit 3 built vehicles for markets where they could make enough profit to pay all those UAW demands(big SUVs and light trucks).
They just can’t make enough money making good small vehicles to pay the bills. They tried to mass produce small cheap vehicles that nobody would buy. This situation in large part developed as the result of union demands. US car makers costs were $30 / hour more than Japans.
I agree with the need for fuel efficient vehicles if they can be built at a reasonable profit but that would mean some major union concessions and congress to balance the laws that effect union bargaining. Until the union and congress address this nothings go change.

My comments have nothing to do with election ignorance but everything to do with people like yourself.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Wow. I just saw parts of the “Trial”….lol
Aw man I bet it would’ve been better after a few beers.

Let’s look a bit in history and the “We need GM blah blah blah…”
Remember AMC? Yes we owned a Gremlin. Did the world come to an end? Did the sky fall? Did our economy fail into recession?

Things that make you go “Hmmmm…..”

Whatever happens, I still want my Volt!

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:19 pm

Hey, since we’re on the subject of the Volt and Lithuim Ion/Polymer batteries….
Why does China have such a big chunk of the market/product? Does their continent have most of the Lithium like the Saudi’s have most of the Crude?
Why aren’t there any US big mass producers? Don’t we have Lithium in the continental US?

Things that make you go “Hmmmm…..”

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LeoK Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:28 pm

Consider this: The domestic automakers simply seek parity with their foriegn competitors (transplants included). For all those who say ‘let them go bankrupt’, who do you think will take over the MASSIVE retiree heathcare tab now being paid by these companies? Yes, correct – the American Taxpayer.

The reason the domestics have a $1,500 to $2,000 price disadvantage per new vehicle stems from legacy costs that no foriegn company has to deal with. Their home government takes care of retiree healthcare. And if GM, Ford & Chrysler all go out, America can do the same. Only difference is we will have given up a huge industrial base of jobs, gross domestic product, taxes, etc along the way.

If the Congress and Senate wakes up tomorrow morning and offers to take over retiree healthcare for the Domestic Auto Companies, I believe the companies would take the deal. They then turn around and renegotiate with the Unions (who they successfully negotiated with a year ago to assume these costs in 2010 with a HUGE capital payment from the companies). With that cost wiped out, the UAW has a choice. Accept competitive wages with the transplants or go home. AS part of the plan, every executive must also share the burden and take a cut.

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Mark Bartosik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

I am mighty unimpressed by how Rick has handled things over the past few days.

This is the first time that I think Gov. Sarah Palin could have taught something worth while to someone (and my opinion of her is very low). She made a big deal about selling the jet that came with her governors’ job — she “put it on ebay” (although it eventually sold elsewhere).

I would also have thought that the executives would have ALREADY have cut their own salaries to some symbolic figure like $1 or $14 / hr. How can you ask the unions or tax payers to sacrifice when you are raking it in?

The idea if taking $1 if you get the bail out is symbolically a dumb thing to do. The time to do this is before going to Congress. This is something that they should have known had they given it the slightest thought.

Just saying it is not a bailout because it is a loan does not help either. Uncle Sam only has so much to loan out (without printing money), and a loan to GM maybe means a lack of a loan or investment or bailout somewhere else.

Saying that they have to travel on their own jets for security is just dishonest. To say that to a senator, instead of eating humble pie, is the height of stupidity. What’s the first thing my company does when things get tight — cut company travel across the board.

As the politicians said symbolism is powerful.

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CaptJackSparrow Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

“The development program was launched in September 2007. BMW contracted California’s AC Propulsion to provide the electric drive system and battery pack for the MINI E. ”

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11/18/la-2008-live-reveal-of-the-mini-e/

OK, so why can’t the big 3 do the same to their line of small cars?
I recall someone posting this suggestion once. BMW’s program launched in 2007 and now it’s November 2008 and they have a fully functional, warrantable product?
GM, suckitup and do the same!

I just want my Volt!

(Quote)
Josh Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:48 pm

Gary Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
And only now, the current Republican administration is trying to appear fiscally responsible?

In case you have noticed, the democrats have been in control of both the House and the Senate the last two years, and couldn’t come close to mustering votes even among themselves. The president cannot spend money without their approval.

(Quote)
Brian T Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

The doomsday scenario if all 3 fail is way overblown. They are 3 of about 15 major car companies that sell in the US. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, VW, BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Hyundai, etc… will all still be here. Many of the cars are made right here by American workers and sold to Americans. Thousands of dealerships will continue, service centers will continue to run, people will have their cars.

Almost everything we consume in the US is manufactured overseas, why should cars be any different. No one cries about not being able to buy an American made T.V. Times have changed, the big 3 US car makers really are dinosaurs. Let them go.

(Quote)
Dave K. Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 10:58 pm

hi Mark Bartosik #64,

“…unimpressed…”

___________________________

I agree, doesn’t anyone at GM have enough clout to be able to speak with the CEO on his banzai tactics and image tarnishing of the company?

I feel Rick W’s agenda is to “say no” to cutting costs. Because, in his mind, if he sells the corporate jets and installs major pay cuts, Congress with say that GM now has enough cash to operate for 2 more months. And Congress will not offer additional TARP money.

This has to be what is going on. Banzaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii !

=D~

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Mark Bartosik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

more on symbolism, and learning…..

The governor of Michigan and her husband spent a month of limiting themselves to food purchases based on the level that someone on food stamps has to spend.

Now that may have been an exercise in learning, a political stunt, or a show of empathy. But there is symbolism there.

Now there is even less excuse for DETROIT executives not to have followed the lead of their own governor.

(Quote)
DonC Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Statik – “However the ‘retooled’ loan ammendment is just sitting on the back burner already rubber stamped and reday to go”

Yeah, Plan B. Apparently the issue is that some still want this money to be used for fuel efficient cars but it seems duplicative if that is a condition of other funding. Plan C would be wait for Obama to just use TARP but honestly I have some trouble understanding the authority for this.

In either event these would be bridge funding to Plan D — a more comprehensive look — which is going to have to follow. FWIW Dodd seemed interested in your government bankruptcy approach. Bankruptcy is really a terrible vessel for this type of action, but after the House hearing with so many special interests coming out of the woodwork I’m beginning to think a bankruptcy might be the best solution.

I see you haven’t gotten the Google Toolbar. LOL

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Jeff M Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Lyle wrote: “The tension continues, and our Volt may very well hang in the balance”

Lyle, stop being single issue! The issue is much bigger than the Volt!

In any case, an article linked from EVWorld.com said “GM dropped plans to make an announcement on the Volt’s battery supplier at the Los Angeles auto show this week.” as a hint that the Volt might be delayed.

Lastly, those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it… in this case let’s not repeat the British mistake and throw money at a sinking ship. See

A British Lesson on Auto Bailouts
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/business/economy/18car.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:06 pm

#70 DonC

Statik – “However the ‘retooled’ loan ammendment is just sitting on the back burner already rubber stamped and reday to go”

Yeah, Plan B. Apparently the issue is that some still want this money to be used for fuel efficient cars but it seems duplicative if that is a condition of other funding. Plan C would be wait for Obama to just use TARP but honestly I have some trouble understanding the authority for this.

In either event these would be bridge funding to Plan D — a more comprehensive look — which is going to have to follow. FWIW Dodd seemed interested in your government bankruptcy approach. Bankruptcy is really a terrible vessel for this type of action, but after the House hearing with so many special interests coming out of the woodwork I’m beginning to think a bankruptcy might be the best solution.

I see you haven’t gotten the Google Toolbar. LOL
———————————

I had a very busy day today…never got around to looking into the spell checker, heeh.

I’m saving my ‘cut and paste’ told you so until tomorrow, maybe I’ll get it by then (…not a told you so to you Don, but to this whole bailout circus in general)

(Quote)
DonC Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:15 pm

#65 CaptainJackSparrow – “BMW’s program launched in 2007 and now it’s November 2008 and they have a fully functional, warrantable product?”

The battery is way too expensive and it will last at most a couple of years. Very disappointing. Although AC Propusion has great products this is one lame battery.

#67 Brian T – “Many of the cars are made right here by American workers and sold to Americans.”

Cars sold by the Detroit auto makers have much higher US content than those sold by the imports.

(Quote)
Vincent Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:29 pm

#42. Wake up. IF they were worth it…Big maybe….
You being the only one that does NOT understand Time Value.
Seems you think these people have worth…Hmmmm

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 19th, 2008 at 11:54 pm

#40 Dave K said,

I respectfully disagree. The HUGE exposure of Volt news to the world will create a massive vacuum of E-REV demand. I expect a Volt-like small truck and jeep-like vehicle by 2011. I place a 95% chance on this date.

If the sub compact, misery box, underpowered Fit is the current HUGE seller even with $2 per gallon pump prices. Then the more economic, well powered, comfortably sized E-REV is big money waiting to be deposited into the automotive industry bank account.

BTW: I am sticking with my prior prediction of S+P 790 being the bottom. And I am continuing to invest in recycling and clean coal technology. More EV and E-REV vehicles will mean more electrical power demand which will support clean coal use. What do you think statik?
———————————————
#44 Statik said,
You don’t really want to know.
(=
———————————————
#51 Dave K said,
Please tell us.

=D~
===============================================

I like you, I enjoy our banter…but I just can’t do it here Dave.
If you want I could email you my thoughts if you like.

moderator.theclub@gmail.com

/I think we should let just wait and see though, maybe your prediction will be spot on!

(=

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Ed M Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:00 am

Brian T #67

Yes, and there will always be a Roman Empire and a 3rd Reich.
Does anybody care at all about the increasing trade imbalance and the declining $ or is it just me. I feel like I’m living in Rome and Nero’s in charge. Its pretty clear by now that we all can’t work for Wal-mart. I think I’ll find a nice sandy beach to stick my head in while I learn Mandarin.

(Quote)
carcus Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:05 am

If only GM had a nice battery patent to sell. Then maybe they wouldn’t need a loan.

(Quote)
Texas Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:12 am

Lot of anger out there! It reminds me of the circus of the oil executives. They beat them up like it was the oil company that set the price of oil.

Folks, this is just a dog and pony show. The are beating up the Big 3 executives just for your entertainment. You want it, they give it to you.

You are all talking like you want to do away with our capitalistic system. You want more socialism? Sure sounds like it. What about all those sports heroes and their pay checks? You probably want a government cap on that as well.

You think a private jet and 28 million a year for Alan is expensive? Check what the revenues for Ford are. If Alan can make just one more billion a year he would have made up for his salary many times. Alan is worth every penny and Ford is lucky to have him. They offered Alan that much and are tickled pink to have him. They should be! He is going to make them all rich (assuming this crisis doesn’t bring the whole industry down before his plan gets rolling).

Honestly people, I know you’re angry so get your punches in. I hate to tell you but it’s all of our faults. We bought the Hummers. We told our leaders we don’t want universal healthcare and thus forced the auto companies to pay the crazy amounts. We allowed foreign auto factories to run without the same obligations; an almost impossible playing field. GM, Ford and Chrysler have an amazing disadvantage in terms of cost and legacy obligations. They all have plans and that’s why the boards are firmly behind all three.

However, Joe the plumber just doesn’t understand, as usual, and wants to see a beat down. It’s so embarrassing. Our educational system is such a disgrace. Oh, that’s also our fault!

So, instead of blaming some of our best minds why not look in the mirror and ask yourself why you did things that did not put our country on the right path? Why you bought that silly Hummer, that huge McMansion that you could not afford. Why you voted for people that didn’t tell it to the public straight. Just spend and spend! Things are all great! Yeah, you all liked that! Much better than paying off your debt and saving a little. That’s no fun at all!

(Quote)
Mark Bartosik Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am

RE #71 and the NY Times article re British Leyland.

I’m British (30 years in UK, 10 in USA).
I remember British Leyland woes, it was in some cases good money after bad.

I remember the union problems there too. There was a union leader called “red Ron” who used to boast how he could halt production at the drop of a hat. There are strikes left right and center.

There was a crappy product lineup in many cases. Quality was in some cases lacking, but technology was lacking too. The government brokered a technology sharing deal with Honda.

There were parts worth saving, and some parts are around today, after British Leyland was eventually broken up.

Parts that were once British Leyland include…
Mini (went to BMW) – the Austin 850 in the Times picture is an older version of the Mini.
Rover (I think last parts of that went to China)
Jaguar (went to Ford)
Range Rover and Land Rover (went to Tata I think)
Leyland DAF survived for a while (truck maker teamed with Dutch DAF )

I think that many in UK regret losing so much of the manufacturing base.

The good parts were re-birthed after the break up of BL (British Leyland).

Just like British Leyland required major surgery so does GM, to their credit they have been doing surgery, but to little too late? Maybe the next place to use the scalpel is at the top? The execs sure don’t understand symbolism.

Turn the excess infrastructure into making something useful like wind turbines.

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The Anti-Oil Jihadi Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:57 am

The government is putting on a show.

Once Obama is in office they will keep those blue collar union jobs afloat. They won’t care about the business case, it will be about keeping them employed long enough to not ruin his presidency. They know there will be a big chain reaction if GM goes down. Obama will want 4 years of life breathed into the auto industry, hopefully 8.

What’s the base of the democratic party? Liberals, union workers, blue collar workers, manufacturing, Michigan, Ohio, etc.

Whose president soon? A liberal democrat from Chicago.
Whose in control of congress? Democrats.

I guarantee you there’s meetings going on right now about a deal. What you see on TV is all a show. Comes inauguration day, a plan will be ready and put in motion.

I bought GM stock based on a political bet. So did some hedge funds. Only Allah knows what will happen.

death to oil
http://www.oiljihad.org

(Quote)
kevin Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:58 am

I’m sure the jets have scratches on them. Lets be real, they don’t need the money that bad, unless the jets had scratches on them. Flying on a jet with scratches is really in poor taste for the dimishing big 3…. or 2….. or ….1

To the GM, Ford, & Chrysler start something new, make cars that people WANT to buy.

(Quote)
JonP Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 1:03 am

#78,

I’m with you.

2 years ago GM had what 50+ Billion in cash reserves.

They bite a huge bullet (what 32 billion) to put the health care cost in the UAW’s hands because our goverment created the most unlevel playing field between them & foreign auto companies the had to fix the problem themselves.
Then the entire economy dries up because a bunch of douche bags on wall st. with friends at the Federal reserve thought telling people to buy homes they couldn’t afford, or use their house like an ATM (refinance) was a good idea.

I watched Wagoneer during the meetings, he was a PR nightmare. That face he made after the rep asked if he would sell his jet and fly home coach was disastorus.

Not that GM was the mold for succesful companies, but their not the worst. Mismanagement is one thing, but they have legacy cost that makes competing impossible.

Want to see bad ceo’s look at the companies management:
Enron
Worldcom
Adelphia Cable
Lehman Bros

these guys were predatory.

At this point i think either the goverment has to hand hold a chapter 11, or force the UAW to move the new contract to 2009 and loan GM 15 Billon.

(Quote)
DB Cooper Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 1:24 am

“The floggings will continue until morale improves”

(Quote)
DB Cooper Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 1:57 am

56 – Cautious Fan Says:

Is there some deeper meaning to the “Detroit 2.8″ besides one isn’t whole. Where does this come from?

=====================================================

Lol I see it as a reference to the 2.8 L V6’s in my Fieros

“I reject your reality and substitute my own”

(Quote)
Edwin Mang Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:02 am

I have seen so many boards that are slow to think but here is some thanks for giving . GMAC bank can give GM a loan that is covered under the current package , BUT you have to have a plan other than make more cars to get it .

God Bless
Happy Thanksgiving

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truthguy Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:16 am

I thought I had heard it all. I’ve never seen so many foolish comments. I will give the posters the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to ignorance rather than stupidity. Chapter 11 will be the end. Joe Sixpack doesn’t understand the difference between chapter 11 and chapter 7 and will NOT buy a car from a company in chapter 11 peroid! All the changes that some of the posters are crowing about are already underway and could not be speeded up by chapter 11. You can always tell a foolish poster when they start talking about how GM should start looking a new technology. This fools have never heard of the Volt or the Cruze or any of the other new cars. Ford and Chrysler also have new and exciting technology out there. There is a sickness out there that I can see. Many posters are trilled to see the problems with the Auto Industry. They in some perverted way are taking pleasure from the bad times. There are some very sick posters on this board. This is a very sad situation where so many are taking pleasure from the demise of American Manufacturing. Truly pathetic! Shame on those people!

(Quote)
DB Cooper Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:22 am

80 – The Anti-Oil Jihadi Says

The government is putting on a show.

Once Obama is in office they will keep those blue collar union jobs afloat. They won’t care about the business case, it will be about keeping them employed long enough to not ruin his presidency. They know there will be a big chain reaction if GM goes down. Obama will want 4 years of life breathed into the auto industry, hopefully 8.

What’s the base of the democratic party? Liberals, union workers, blue collar workers, manufacturing, Michigan, Ohio, etc.

Whose president soon? A liberal democrat from Chicago.
Whose in control of congress? Democrats.

I guarantee you there’s meetings going on right now about a deal. What you see on TV is all a show. Comes inauguration day, a plan will be ready and put in motion.

I bought GM stock based on a political bet. So did some hedge funds. Only Allah knows what will happen.

death to oil

======================================================

I don’t get it. What’s ‘blue collar’ about making $70 an hour ?

“What’s the base of the democratic party? Liberals, union workers, blue collar workers, manufacturing, Michigan, Ohio, etc.

Whose president soon? A liberal democrat from Chicago.
Whose in control of congress? Democrats.”

Who’s to blame when things get worse under comrade Obama ?
Bush.

Just food for thought; but who do you figure has the lower approval rating ? The top execs of the big 3 ? Or the congress ?

I would like to have seen Wagoner take his case to the news cameras and the American taxpayers rather than pander to the corrupt congressmen. There were plenty of opportunities to point out that the auto makers’ current problems were largely caused directly by the meddling of corrupt power-broker attourneys in Washington; and that the companies themselves have been fighting an uphill battle for their lives for at least a decade.

Congress implying the auto makers are wasteful is like the pot calling the kettle black.

But we as a people can’t win for losing. Face it – on the whole we’re dumb enough to follow the trail of bread crumbs the media drops for us without looking around and seeing anything for ourselves. Things have to get pretty dismal before enough people bother to learn to think for themselves again.

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Gary Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:25 am

67 Brian T: “Almost everything we consume in the US is manufactured overseas, why should cars be any different. No one cries about not being able to buy an American made T.V.”

I know a lot of people who complain that virtually nothing you buy in a store is made “at home” any more. The more manufacturing jobs that are sent oveseas, the bigger the trade deficit becomes, and the deeper in doo-doo the United States gets. Get your head out of the sand.

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Bill Cosworth Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:33 am

IF GM Goes

Toyota will convert the USA into a sweat shop

http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562

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Gary Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:40 am

86 Truthguy: “Many posters are thrilled to see the problems with the Auto Industry. They in some perverted way are taking pleasure from the bad times. There are some very sick posters on this board.

Negativity is what grabs attention and sells the news. It must cause some psychologically addictive hormonal release. Look at TV shows like Jerry Springer–people actually watch that crap. Maybe it’s so viewers can feel better about themselves since they can see other peoples’ lives are even more severely f*cked up than their own?

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semis bellers Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 2:45 am

Well,

The USG is very stupid. Where is the brainpower of money.

We need more jewish money makers in congress to give money to the BIG Three.

Why give money to the banks and IRAQ? What do the banks do to make the USA money.

The Bush admistration is so dumb. They have all been bough out by toyota lobiests who spend millions in washington. For good reason Toyota invests in washington to keep things on there side. They love american money!!

Who is the Greedy one not Detroit executives but Toyota sure is!

I hope Obama an change washington and move the bush cronies out and move in some people with some american price and back our auto industry.

They can give loans out to who. Housing buyers.

If we dont have automobile manufacturing who can afford houses.

Chapter 11 is simply not acceptable

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BillR Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 6:32 am

Of course, what no one seems to realize is that these big execs don’t travel alone. At VoltNation, Bob Lutz had at least 2 men with earphones that were near him at all times. I don’t know how many others there may have been that I didn’t see.

When the entourage that travels with Wagoner all buys tickets on an airline, waits for security and other airline delays, I’m not sure that traveling by airline is truly as cost effective as the dubs in Congress would suggest.

Of course, I’m sure Obama never used any private jets during his campaign. HaHaHa.

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Rashiid Amul Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 6:46 am

TIME magazine has posted it’s Best Inventions of 2008.
The Volt is Number 7.

“http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/0,28757,1852747,00.html?cnn=yes”

Take out the quotes.

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Art Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 6:55 am

Something clearly needs to be done to preserve the US auto industry. During the second world war, those assembly lines worked 24/7 building tanks, etc for our war effort. Fire the CEO’s. Tell the UAW to settle for the same contract Honda and Toyota workers have. But for the sake of our national security, do not let the US auto industry fold. We may need those lines someday.

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Msk1ster Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 8:01 am

Well, It’s not looking good. So I guess I will be buying a Phoenix Motors electric truck with a 130 mile range before recharge and can be recharged in 10 min.

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Bob McGovern Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 8:32 am

Truthguy;
Smarten up and face reality. GM, Chrysler and Ford have known for a long time that their buyers are leaving for price, quality and economy. Also you mention new technology. They have had years to create and put new technology on the market but no, they put what they want on the market. You also mention Chapter 11 and Chapter 7. The alternative is for us Taxpayers to continue to bail them out. They call them loans but have you once heard them mention collateral? If we continue to prop them up when do they start making commitments to their customers? They aren’t making any concessions on their part they just say gimeee gimeee.

(Quote)
Nelson Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 8:48 am

Although I don’t have the proper credentials, I would be willing to replace Rick Wagoner as CEO of GM for a salary of $100K a year for as long as the board and share holders want me. Of course as CEO of GM the company would have to follow my guide line for restructuring. Beginning with the below mandates.

1. No “cash or stock” bonus or incentives pay for anyone working for GM.
2. No increase in Executive or Management headcount.
3. No salary increases.
4. No Golden Parachute.
5. No Private Jet transportation for any employee or board member.
6. No free vehicles given as perks.
7. No management retreats.
8. No company reimbursed expenses for President, CEO, CFO, VP’s and Management.
9. Reduced severance packages.
10. Salary Cap. No salary over $100k/year for any Executive i.e. President, CEO, CFO, and VP’s.
11. Salary Cap. No salary over $65k/year for any Management and non-Management positions.
12. 80% of the loan is directly used to get the Volt, E-Flex & alternative fuel technology for sale in show rooms.
13. Discontinue production on the 10 least desirable vehicle models and replace with Volt, E-Flex & alternative fuel technology vehicles.

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Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 9:38 am

“2) Handover volt to Toyota or Honda

3) Handover volt to Hundai or Kia”

Or, my preference: Voltswagens rolling off the new assembly line in Chattanooga!

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N Riley Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 10:06 am

I am wondering if any of the millionaires in congress would be willing to give up their paychecks for $1.00 in salary to help our country’s debt. Also, those millionaires and the other congressmen if they would be willing to give up all of their perks of office. We spend hundreds of millions on congressional perks alone. That is not counting the cost of buildings to house those perks. It is kinda like the pot call the kettle black, if you know what I mean.

Sure, these three CEOs should be willing to give up most everything to see their companies succeed and survive. I would in their position. Most of us “normal” Americans would.

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N Riley Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 10:11 am

Just think of the cost of the planes that Pelosi and Reid get to use to fly anywhere around the world in at taxpayer expense. These are not small executive jets, but very large airliner size planes with a large staff to support them. Plus, many department heads in the administration get the same type of treatment. It is stupid in today’s environment. But you better believe that while most of us will be suffering through a recession or maybe a depression, the members of congress and the administration will continue to live high on the taxpayers back. We need change, but you will not see any from politicians. Newly elected or those that have been around 40 years. They are all the same.

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statik Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 10:17 am

#40 Dave K

BTW: I am sticking with my prior prediction of S+P 790 being the bottom. And I am continuing to invest in recycling and clean coal technology. More EV and E-REV vehicles will mean more electrical power demand which will support clean coal use. What do you think statik?
————————————-

S&P 500 INDEX. Thursday, November 20th, 2008 10:15am
777.97 -28.61

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Casadore Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 10:43 am

Put Your Money In Horses. To bad we can’t feed them gasoline.

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Joe Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 11:36 am

Is there some deeper meaning to the “Detroit 2.8″ besides one isn’t whole. Where does this come from?
—
The 2.8 represents 20% of Chrysler LLC being owned by Daimler AG.
It’s stupid and nobody else actually refers to them as that. Just call them the Big 3.

(Quote)
statik Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 11:48 am

#103 Joe

Is there some deeper meaning to the “Detroit 2.8″ besides one isn’t whole. Where does this come from?
—
The 2.8 represents 20% of Chrysler LLC being owned by Daimler AG.
It’s stupid and nobody else actually refers to them as that. Just call them the Big 3.
——————————–
I guess that is a shot at me, I can handle it though. I love calling them the ‘big 2.8′…I do it as often and as much as I can, heeh.

I refuse to stop!
I couldn’t stop it even if I tried…it is in my blood…it is too fabulous to not say.

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Fahrvergnugen Fanboy Says:
November 20th, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Imagine if Wagoner had been able to say: “I drove here myself from Detroit in a Chevy Cobalt XFE. I got [around 40?] miles per gallon. I believe in our product and I use our product.” How would the senators have reacted? How would the rank-and-file at the Cobalt plant have reacted?

But no, he had to take the company jet and offer to *halve* his multi-million-dollar salary. Sad.

It’s so much like having a family member with a substance-abuse problem who asks you for twenty-five hundred so he can get clean “This time for real! I swear!” Your heart says one thing; your head has doubts.

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Skruff Says:
November 23rd, 2008 at 10:41 am

Anyone who ever turned Detroit pig iron into a “hot rod” knows that the “Big three” made garbage cars for years. At least back before the Seventies some of then had looks.

The safety issues they ignored until they were made to comply with standards were cheap and simple, but GM, ford, and Chrysler ignored the safety of their customers

The gas mileage of cars in the 40’s was far better than the gas milage of the same make cars in the the early Seventies.

Better cars like Packard, Tucker, and Kaiser were allowed to fail and die, in favor of GM where they were attempting to corner the market.

The Government turned a blind eye while GM and HArvey Firestone attempted to dismantle the mass transit systems they saw as a threat to their businessses

Give the 25 Billion to communities around the country’s largest cities and demand they build mass transit systems.

Give people a choice (the benefit of living in a “free” country?) and I’ll just bet the people around Los Angeles would rather take a high-speen train to work, rather then sit in a traffic jam for three hours (Ditto Westchester Fairfield, and Rockland County residents.)

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THOM Says:
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:13 am

if the govt is going to waste money, give some to tesla.

THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A PRODUCT THEY ARE SHIPPING.

The contradictions constantly on this website have convinced me the so called “volt” is more of a Public Relations stunt. Unfortunatly, most people didnt beleive in it enough to invest money into GM STOCK

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