As the US automotive financial crisis continues, and the US government debates whether to bail out GM and the other automakers, foreign governments are apparently developing their own plans.
Just reported in a leading Chinese newspaper is a report that Chinese automakers SAIC and Donfeng have developed internal plans to buy GM and Chrysler assets.
Considering GM’s very low current market cap of less than $2 billion, if they are willing to accept the debt, such an acquisition would be easy for China’s government-owned automakers.
Since the Chinese automotive market has the greatest global growth potential and Chinese automakers have been looking for ways to achieve international leverage, this could be a quick solution for them.
Will our Volts be made in China? It may be up to our government to decide.
Source (The Truth About Cars )
Thanks to Dave M. for the tip.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, November 18th, 2008 at 11:44 am and is filed under Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:49 am)I know large amounts of the big 3′s vehicles are already made in China and other non-US sources, but if GM completely sells out to China, there’s no way I’d ever look at their products again, Volt or no!
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:54 am)That’s even worse than going belly up imho. Lyle, you’ve thoroughly convinced me to support a bailout. Budweiser Owned by the Europeans and GM owned by the Chinese. This sucks
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:54 am)I’ll feel very safe knowing that China controls America’s largest manufacturing ability.
Remember those companies that make our defense systems now probably don’t have the capacity of manufacturing of the Big 3.
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:54 am)Like I said a lot of high drama in the air!
Take Care
Arch
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:55 am)Sounds like lead based paint will be back before we know it.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:05 pm)I won’t buy a Chinese-made car. Their quality control is currently too weak and the government oversight is corrupt. I’m a loyal American car buyer and will remain so as long as there is American car manufacturing. One last note: I AM CHINESE.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:08 pm)The Volt will go on sale in the US at the end of 2010, but Europe is likely to receive other models using the E-REV concept – possibly a version of the next-generation Zafira, which will use the same platform as the Volt, but whose MPV body is more likely to appeal to European tastes than the Volt’s four-door saloon.
Volt in Paris http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Volt_Paris.jpg
Zafira in Europe http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Chevrolet_zafira.jpg
_____________________________________
GM management has directed the company into a hole. And now they are really showing their soft under bellies by crying “Uncle!” to a Chinese bid? And I though the loan company heads were traitors.
It’s better to restructure and fly an American flag than to sell out to a handful of foreign gold.
=D~
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:17 pm)Ha! The plot thickens. China buying GM would almost be the same thing as GM going under. Do you think that the Chinese would allow the UAW to strong arm them like they have been doing to the big 3 for decades? China would be buying the name and nothing more. All the jobs would still be lost as the Chinese can build in China and ship here for a fraction of the cost of using US workers.
What we are witnessing here is the globalization of the american economy rather than the americanization of the global economy. I have been saying for years now that the rest of the world is catching up and now we are being surpassed. America has been sitting on it’s fat arse for 20 years thinking we are so great while turning a blind eye to the growing power of international economies. We have already mortgaged our country to the Chinese, why not sell our businesses to them also. We have no one to blame but ourselves. Now go write a hillbilly song about how awesome we are.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:23 pm)“Will our Volts be made in China? It may be up to our government to decide.”
Wow, really pushing hard for the corporate welfare today, aren’t you Lyle? I’ve read this site for a while, I must say I’m disappointed in your methods.
Anytime the government is painted as the hero and the only solution, peoples’ spidey senses should start tingling. Thou doth protest too much. I smell a rat.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:23 pm)This is not to sound super-paranoid (though admittedly, I am) but if I were a senator, this news would push me to vote for the bailout, simply because I know we already are too dependent on Chinese imports. We can’t afford any more, especially with the Taiwan situation (I listen to international radio, it’s weirder then most people realize). If GM goes under, others will replace them here. But if GM is bought by China, our domestic production will stagnate.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:30 pm)I will not buy a Chinese Car PERIOD, No matter what label is on it.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:30 pm)The last time I was in Asia one of the things I remember most was that none of them could make a battery worth a damn.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:33 pm)Wow…wonder if that is accurate. I hope SOMEONE of capital hill brings this up today. It is an interesting point that may very well influence lawmakers to back a bailout. If China buys GM, I will bail on the Volt.
Dependence on another FOREIGN country for transportation needs is OUTRAGEOUS.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:34 pm)Just give GM and Chrysler and Ford the money and stop this mess !!!
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:36 pm)People, please remember that almost no one on capitol hill reads this. Call and e-mail your senators and reps directly, NOW.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:38 pm)15 Grant Says:
People, please remember that almost no one on capitol hill reads this. Call and e-mail your senators and reps directly, NOW.
Why, do they like wasting time? The additional bailout plan is already DOA.
“Aides in both parties and lobbyists tracking the plan privately acknowledge they are far short. ”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94HFIE80&show_article=1
So that means you can save all your end-of-the-world scare tactics until the new Congress and then the Unions…sorry, GM will somehow still be around to be “saved” by the Federal government.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:40 pm)Wait for it!
Two words – Chalmers Johnson. “Blowback”, “The Sorrows Of Empire”, “Nemesis”. It’s all laid out there.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:42 pm)To all those that say “just let them fail”…welcome to the reality of the capitalist system…
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:43 pm)I could also see Chinese interests buying percentages of GM and Chrysler to provide a cash infusion.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:44 pm)Well, that is a entertaining article. But that is it. It is short on rebutable sources and logic. A hideously written piece of fiction.
No way anyone in China buys this ‘hot mess 2.8′…or even attempts it. China just put through a almost 600B bailout package themselves, they are in no more of a hurry to tack on another 200-300 billion for laughs. I know they have a trillion or two tucked away for a ‘rainy day’ but buying into the worst sector at the worst time seems…unlikely.
They would MAYBE like to buy some pieces in C7, and some brand titles to give credibility…but good luck with that. You really think the US would let China gobble up random parts of Americana like that?
Side note: Isn’t Buick already a Chinese brand? Heeh.
===================================
#17 noel park says,
Wait for it!
Two words – Chalmers Johnson. “Blowback”, “The Sorrows Of Empire”, “Nemesis”. It’s all laid out there.
—–
Like when the Picard sees the huge Romulan Bird of Prey decloak for the first time, then later learns it is being commanded by his clone? (I still wish the storyline of Riker’s and Troi’s honeymoon was not interupted, that would have been fascinating to watch develop for 2 hours…especially if Data did more singing)
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:48 pm)I don’t like the idea of the current GM Volt having a $15,000 Korean battery. A Chi-Volt will finish it for me. No Chi-Kor Volt will make it into my garage. I’ll ride an electric scooter first.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20070817-9999-1n17scooter.html
=D~
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:49 pm)I’d rather see a Toyota or Honda take over “American” car companies if that has to happen, but the reality is does it really matter if a Chinese company takes them over?
I have been driving Mazda and Acura the past 14 years. Had ZERO plans to “buy American” other than maybe a Volt (although I have been impressed with the strides GM & Ford have made the past 2 years…). But how many TV’s, video game consoles and computers are built in the US anymore? Simple rule of economics “production moves where production is cheapest”
Just goes to show you, greedy UAW contracts + poor (overpaid) management = a bad combination for a car company. Gettelfingfer says again today “No wage or benefits cuts”. Does this clown realize all his members are about to have no job at all? Why should I as a taxpayer be willing to sacrifice to help this clown if he isn’t willing to sacrifice at all? If I was leaning towards MAYBE doing something to help Detroit now I am against doing ANYTHING to help his $75/hour workers!
I hate to say it, but I think management and the UAW are about to get what they deserve….a ticket to the history books. (did you guys see the story on CNN yesterday about the UAW and their benefits? It’s amazing the “big 3″ didn’t go under 20 years ago!)
It’s sad, there are a lot of good people on the assembly lines and in management now try to do the right thing and concentrate on building good products that people want to buy (…somehow it took the specter of bankruptcy to figure that out….and Gettelfinger still hasn’t). But, from I have seen and read the past few days, it’s too late.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:52 pm)Enough with the scare tactics already Lyle. This is shameless.
Nov 18th, 2008 (12:53 pm)#20 Statik (me)
Sorry about the hideous spelling, I tried to edit/fix it all after I noticed itall, but it was too late (sorry Matt). The first line should read:
“Well, that is a entertaining article. But that is it. It is short on REPUTABLE sources and logic. A hideously written piece of fiction.”
—
I also had some more thoughts on Star Trek and how it relates to China…but I digress
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:01 pm)The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Quick Uncle Sam. Save us all.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:02 pm)2Snowboard,
Is it more of a waste then seeing everyone yelling instructions into a bucket? It’s the same thing. Instead, the same post texts could easily be sent as an e-mail to the senators in question. Nothing works better then letters. On the other hand, uninvolved voters let the situation continue to degrade. I already send in my views, and will again when Dole’s seat moves to Hagen.
And what end of the world junk? I’m talking about loosing essential supplies and services if we acting a way that China ‘doesn’t like’, which they have already threatened us with, as well as indicating their desire to cash in all the bonds their government holds from us, which will exacerbate our economic situation. Last I checked, we don’t even have a factory in this country that makes RUBBER GLOVES. Loads of fun at the hospital without them. We are too dependent. A pure consumer economy can’t continue as it can’t produce something anyone needs that they will trade for.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:08 pm)If the UAW braintrust doesn’t want to give an inch to make this work why should the American taxpayer bailout these selfish morons.
They are so far removed from the reality of the average taxpayer
that they do not deserve a single cent. The party is over. Face the new reality
or perish.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:08 pm)$24 Statik
On the on-going saga of your spelling, if you have installed the Google Toolbar it has a speller. Pretty seamless.
#23 Cautious Fan – “scare tactics”
Funny how slightly changing the question leads to different positions, eh? Of course if you think it through there is essentially no difference between letting the auto industry go under and having the Chinese take over the auto industry. Same result – no ability for the US to make things including planes, trains, tanks, and arms.
On this one Obama is absolutely right. For too many years we’ve subscribed to tax and other policies that decimated the manufacturing sector while pretending that it didn’t matter. It does.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:12 pm)Grant, you could send an “e-mail” to Senators? I never thought of that, but with this world wide web thing I think you are on to something that could change Washington and give us hope.
The hysterical rumor mongering about China, and how our economy can’t continue, and hospitals are going to fail because of the rubber glove crisis is certain to sway them.
You send one of these “e-mail” thingies to get GM the money its entitled to. I’ll start the campaign to bailout the rubber glove industry because the government must do something. Its panic time!
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:12 pm)Cautious Fan @23, it does sound a bit like a scare tactic, but geesh, what if?
But I agree that the timing of the article is dubious. Lyle, don’t let your passions influence your prejudices!
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:12 pm)#28 DonC
$24 Statik
On the on-going saga of your spelling, if you have installed the Google Toolbar it has a speller. Pretty seamless.
————————-
Heck no! I am determined to resolve this issue myself, old school style. I am flying without a net!
(Or maybe I’ll just end the torture and go have a look at it now…thanks)
=========================
Other news:
“Homebuilder sentiment index plunges to record low”
LOS ANGELES (AP) — The National Association of Home Builders says its housing market index plunged to another record low this month as the U.S. financial crisis, rising unemployment and swelling uncertainty over the economy shook builders’ confidence about the prospect for a housing recovery.
The Washington-based trade association said Tuesday the index tumbled by five points to nine in November. The index stood at 14 last month after slipping three points from September.
Index readings lower than 50 indicate negative sentiment about the market.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081118/builder_sentiment.html?.v=1
–
I’m not sure but when they start spelling out the numbers mid-stream in a article, that can’t be a good sign. A reading under ’50′ is negative, and it went from ’14′ to ‘nine’.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:17 pm)#27 Joey – “If the UAW braintrust doesn’t want to give an inch to make this work why should the American taxpayer bailout these selfish morons”
You’re absolutely right, which is why we’ve demanded that all the employees at banks getting $700B in bailouts take pay cuts. Oh wait, we haven’t done that.
Hmmmm……. I guess you’ll have to explain the difference to me. Other than the fact that we’re spending a whole lot more to bail out the banks, and other than the fact that the bankers get paid a lot more for screwing up more, I’m not seeing the difference. Clue me in pal. I’m all ears.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:17 pm)Wouldn’t be surprised if they did buy up what is left of ALL our manufacturing capabilities. In another 20 years we will have outsourced all of the best manufacturing and high-tech jobs; blindly imported millions of illegals to do all of the worst jobs; which I think will leave the rest of us standing in the unemployment lines together wondering WTF did we do to ourselves?!!!
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:20 pm)That would be the end of GM and China knows it. This is definitely a scare tactic. No way China would want to deal with the headaches of owning an American company that has an untamed culture.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:29 pm)I think people are mis-interpreting, but yes, you can e-mail your reps and senators, though normal letters make much more of an impact. Around here, both the local offices and federal ones have their addresses posted publicly. Just look it up on whatever your local state website is. E-mail for the federal side can be found at http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
And no, you should NOT believe everything that people say about China, but if you actually start looking at news from many parts of the world, the situation looks quite different then it does in the American news media. China’s own state radio has linked the buying of US Bonds with an ‘assurance’ of the ability to pressure the US to not interfere if they were ‘forced’ to invade Taiwan. Taiwanese radio has responded by claiming they have been given new weapons. America denies this, though we did somehow send them nuke parts by mistake. China raised issues with that, too.
The world is complicated. The only way to really understand it is to go out and see.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:29 pm)If the US does not help the domestic car makers and lets this to happen, it would be a gross mistake, that could never be reversed in our life time. I’ve never had so much little faith in our government. Here’s an example of their stupidity. Last year the DC government sent emails urging it’s workers to buy Japanese cars. After someone complained they issued another email apologizing to the workers.
Where have our real leaders gone?
If China gets to own GM, Ford or Chrysler, I will never buy any one them ever!! That does not mean I’ll buy Japanese cars, either. European cars will become my choice if we no longer make them.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:37 pm)Y’know? It has been documented that the near top tier employees at the big 3′s assembly facilities make $73.00 per hour, whereas is has been pointed out that Toyota pays an hourly rate of $43.00 per hour.
Hmmmm…let me see. $43 per hour to build a car that you can’t build them fast enough
Vs.
$73 per hour + benefits + retirement + insurance for people that aren’t building desireable cars and
are struggling to keep up.
My parents always told me that math was a very important subject in school. Scrap the union garbage, move the plants to the south where unions aren’t as strong, make pay on par with Toyota but make the cars BETTER (keyword). I look at the present economic situation and ask myself, “8 years of military service for THIS?” You’ve got to be freakin’ kiddin me.
Regardless, bailout passed or not, the taxpayer is still getting f*#%ed, and if they’re going to screw us, at least kiss us and leave a note when you leave in the morning…
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:38 pm)DonC,
>>You’re absolutely right, which is why we’ve demanded that all the employees at banks getting $700B in bailouts take pay cuts…..Clue me in pal. I’m all ears.<<
Who says Joey or I are for bailing out the banks and Wall Street or Fannie Mae mortgages the government handed out to people that never should have had one???
Hey, at least you UAW guys had a “Jobs Bank” where you got 97% of your pay for doing nothing…..another reason the American auto companies could not compete. Didn’t you guys realize stuff like that was going to bankrupt American auto makers? Oh well, I guess when the big 3 go under you will lose your “Job Bank” too…..parties over “pal”. Pretty soon your slogans “I’m Union!” and “Were shut’en this plant down!” will have no meaning
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:42 pm)Why would you want to buy a company that is bleeding 2.5 billion per month? That makes no sense.
http://oilfreenow.blogspot.com
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:42 pm)#28 DonC
What do you mean by different positions? Are you mixing me up with someone else? I don’t support a bailout period. Whether it’s to (in theory) save jobs, are to keep those evil evil Chinese out. We’re going down the wrong road here, and history tells us where that road leads. The cure is worse than the disease.
And scare tactics are being used heavily to garner favor for this bailout. The Big 3 backed CAR report, predicting million of lost jobs. And now this nicely timed release about the evil Chinese taking over America’s backbone.
We need a modern day Paul Revere. THE CHINESE ARE COMING. THE CHINESE ARE COMING.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:44 pm)#32 DonC “I guess you’ll have to explain the difference to me”.
Perhaps the difference is that bank employees in the US are paid on par with foreign counterparts while US autoworkers make far more than foreign counterparts. The UAW has priced itself out of the market.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:47 pm)I’ll never buy a China owned GM vehicle….nor will any of may family or friends.
Bye Bye GM. See ya.
Fat lazy union porks have to go.
I sent the link to this article to the New York Senate.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:52 pm)#20 Statik,
“No way anyone in China buys this ‘hot mess 2.8′…or even attempts it. China just put through a almost 600B bailout package themselves, they are in no more of a hurry to tack on another 200-300 billion for laughs. I know they have a trillion or two tucked away for a ‘rainy day’ but buying into the worst sector at the worst time seems…unlikely.”
—————————————————————————————
Why is it so unlikely? How much does a well run car company make a year? GM cars had until this financial mess been doing well overseas. Would the rest of the world notice if China bought GM and slowly transitioned all of the manufacturing away from NA and into China? I don’t see why they would. Assuming quality stayed the same and cost went down. Every year more of the work leaves NA and goes to China where it is done quicker and cheaper.
Financially they may be in the red, but it’s tough to put a price on the knowledge GM’s employees poses. I’m not talking about the guy stamping parts but the guys that make the stamps, know the regulations, have had 100 years of Automotive trial, error, and engineering. $200 billion cut a bunch of fat and you have a stable american auto company. Then you start transitioning things over to China at a pace that doesn’t impact quality and you start really making money. Start making all of your parts in house.
If they have the cash to me it makes complete sense.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:53 pm)Sorry to say that the US created this mess in the first place. GM and Chrysler are just the tip of the iceberg. When most big US corporations decided to outsource jobs overseas because it was the cheapest way to produce goods and sometimes even services (in IT for example), they decided to use US money to help develop foreign countries. But it was the sound decision to make based on the ‘free market’ approach that is so dear to the US so they did. And you were able to buy a lot of stuff cheaper that way. For a while.
Instead of spreading wealth in the US, corporations are spreading it worldwide, especially in the pacific belt. At least, when they move manufacturing to Mexico, you can argue that it decreases Mexican immigration. There is an advantage doing that. But what kind of advantage is there in helping China and India build their economy using your buying power?
In my opinion, a bailout is just a temporary relief to a much profound problem. Free market would work if there were no commercial barriers anywhere. We know for a fact that it is not true. Foreign countries are not going to change their way and open their market because the way it is now is working just fine for them. They are sitting on a pile of money. US money.
And one more thing : Chinese are not going to buy a money pit. They know better. They don’t even consider buying the patents, they just use them for free. Then try to sue them…
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:53 pm)#37:
I agree with your statement, but just remember that the people assembling these undesirable cars are not the ones designing them. There’s plenty of blame to go around.
Nov 18th, 2008 (1:56 pm)28 DonC On this one Obama is absolutely right.
“this one” as if you aren’t a fanatical Dem partisan? Gimme a break, when have you of all the posters on this site ever disagreed with your guy?
JeffNY “Who says Joey or I are for bailing out the banks and Wall Street or Fannie Mae mortgages the government handed out to people that never should have had one???”
I said it at the time that this was a slippery slope to socialism, and now the only response to why this bailout is good for America from the Dems is that Bush supported the first bailout, since when does his support of something make it right?
BobS “THE UAW has priced itself out of the market.”
Truer words have not been posted, but Obama and people like superfan DonC are determined to make sure the taxpayer creates an unsustainable artificial market to keep the party rockin until the Treasury itself needs a bailout. Its time grownups say No More, man up and take some personal responsibility for your own company Wagoner, or get the hell out and let someone else call the shots.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:06 pm)#30 Dave B
Cautious Fan @23, it does sound a bit like a scare tactic, but geesh, what if?
But I agree that the timing of the article is dubious. Lyle, don’t let your passions influence your prejudices!
____________________________________________________
It matters to me. Scare tactics are condescending and show a lack of respect for constituents cognitive abilities. They intentionally manipulate passions and ignore reason. While it’s perfectly legal, it drives me to different groups for ideas exchange.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:07 pm)I haven’t read any of the above posts, so I’m sorry if I am repeating.
I was only supportive of the bailout if GM file chapter 11 first and used the government for low interest loans to reorganize.
I am now more supportive of the bailout if China is going to own GM.
This is a big mistake from a National Security standpoint and American pride, if there is any of that left.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:11 pm)Uh, extremly bad news. I will buy and buy GM vehicles if they are Chapter 11, but if the Chinese buy em, I will never own a GM vehicle again.
As a car guy… if China were to buy em, that would be one of the most devistating days of my life. I would rather see GM bo Chapter 7 and never come back that to have the Chinese own them.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:17 pm)#21 Dave K:
Gee, I wonder where the scooter’s built? I read the article pretty carefully, and it doesn’t say.
I saw a motor scooter made in India the other day, which was a first for me. So maybe it’s not really made in China. Still, I’ve got a buck says it is.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:21 pm)#24 Statik
“I also had some more thoughts on Star Trek and how it relates to China…but I digress”
Had me thinking along the same lines…”We are the [Chinese]. Lower your [standards] and surrender your [manufacturing]. Your [economic] and technological distinctivness will be added to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:21 pm)Firefly @#37 – So if the UAW is the problem that keeps GM from being competitive, why aren’t Toyotas and Hondas 40% cheaper (75-45 $ per hr., right)? Could it be that instead of spending money on American workers, they take most of that money home to Japan? How does that grow the American economy? Does Japan allow us to sell our goods there as freely as we allow them to sell our goods here? How about China?
Free trade is a great concept. If there was actually a level playing field, we could even see if it works. But the playing field is not level. As long as we keep scape-goating American workers and playing in a rigged game, our economy will continue to get worse.
Someone the other day said that if union workers want a career they should have been a doctor. Doctors were paid with eggs 100 years ago. They only started making real money when their patients did. Wake up America!
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:24 pm)#47 Cautious Fan:
Bye.
#48 Rashiid Amul:
“….and American pride, if there is any of that left.”
An open question, IMHO.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:26 pm)Let’s see, buy car from China & gas from Middle East, hmmm?
Ah well, it’s just too expensive with $70+ /hr & 15 million dollar salaries to build them in the US, so build them where it’s affordable!
The Oriental VOLT!
Sounds Perfect!
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:28 pm)#43 Gsned57
#20 Statik says,
“No way anyone in China buys this ‘hot mess 2.8′…or even attempts it. China just put through a almost 600B bailout package themselves, they are in no more of a hurry to tack on another 200-300 billion for laughs. I know they have a trillion or two tucked away for a ‘rainy day’ but buying into the worst sector at the worst time seems…unlikely.”
—————————————————————————————
Gsned57 says,
Why is it so unlikely? How much does a well run car company make a year? GM cars had until this financial mess been doing well overseas. Would the rest of the world notice if China bought GM and slowly transitioned all of the manufacturing away from NA and into China? I don’t see why they would. Assuming quality stayed the same and cost went down. Every year more of the work leaves NA and goes to China where it is done quicker and cheaper.
Financially they may be in the red, but it’s tough to put a price on the knowledge GM’s employees poses. I’m not talking about the guy stamping parts but the guys that make the stamps, know the regulations, have had 100 years of Automotive trial, error, and engineering. $200 billion cut a bunch of fat and you have a stable american auto company. Then you start transitioning things over to China at a pace that doesn’t impact quality and you start really making money. Start making all of your parts in house.
If they have the cash to me it makes complete sense.
————————-
It is unlikely and makes no sense, because no one in the free world, or otherwise has had even a smidge of interest in buying GM at ANY price, all the way down. If nothing else, let past experience be your guide.
Right now you can gain control of GM for about 800 million dollars…that means there are potentially over 10,000 entities that ‘could’ exercise control over it if they so chose…and none have. If China (or anyone else) wanted this thing at all, they would have taken it long ago. Heck, 1.7 billion for the whole thing is loose pocket change to any major government…and many businesses.
It is further unlikely and makes no sense because this source is from a random Chinese newspaper and gives zero sources, or even scratches the surface of understanding the process of the international hurdles for a foreign government (especially) China of nationalizing General Motors.
I have been saying this since GM was at $40 here, now I repeat it at $2.76. The shares and the company both are worthless. (The only way you make money on GM at this point is if you get in at the perfect time and get a short term pop on gov’t bailout and bank your cash while running for the hills).
If GM was trading today at .02 cents right now (12M cap), not one healthy business/government would consider taking it on. It is like saying, “Hey, do you want to buy my house for $5,000? It is worth $50,000…but you also have to assume the mortgage of $1,000,000.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:28 pm)So if the UAW is the problem that keeps GM from being competitive, why aren’t Toyotas and Hondas 40% cheaper (75-45 $ per hr., right)?
======
Because Toyota and Honda actually make a profit?
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:29 pm)#51 GLV:
My thought, lose the smiley face. As my dad used to say, “Taint funny McGhee.” Or, as he also used to say, “Too true to be funny.”
# 52 MarkinWI:
There is a prominent story on the Yahoo news page today about how many doctors, especially primary care physicians, are leaving the field because thay can’t navigate the insurance/Medicare maze and make a decent living.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:31 pm)We have so much debt owned by China that I have said for sometime “the Chinese own us now, they just have not collected yet.”
Maybe they are about to start collecting! And which party was this debt run up on?
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:33 pm)#57 noel park
“My thought, lose the smiley face. As my dad used to say, ‘Taint funny McGhee.’ Or, as he also used to say, ‘Too true to be funny.’”
And here I struggled over not putting LOL at the end of my comment… (smile)
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:35 pm)#54 Anthony BC:
Yeah, and pay for them with your unemployment check.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:40 pm)I posted this on prior blog entry/thread.
A debate on bail out on NPR radio, a somewhat different take to the way most media have treated it. Interesting….
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97128088
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:42 pm)A bailout is bad, really bad. Chapter 11 is probably worse, but not by much. A Chinese buyout? That tops everything far and wide. I really did not see how this could get worse, but I stand corrected. I barely have words to describe how awful it would be if GM sold out to China. Not only to American cars as a brand name, but to the people working for GM right now.
Bailout vs GM China Edition, there is no contest. I fully support this bailout to keep GM away from China.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:42 pm)12 wwskinn3 Says:
November 18th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
The last time I was in Asia one of the things I remember most was that none of them could make a battery worth a damn.
————————–
I’m pretty sure Asia currently leads the world in battery technology. Maybe you just bought cheap batteries.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:52 pm)They can buy the Hummer for all I give a rat’s ass, but if the Volt goes Chinese, my next Car will for sure be a Tesla.
Nov 18th, 2008 (2:55 pm)Well, if the Chinese pickup GM, I’d still buy one. Think about it. It’s the last car the “General” engineered as an American manufacturer. It’s their best effort at going into alternative fuels/propulsion.
Besides, if we can’t put a big dent against their auto industry, we have the bullies in the UAW that can push them around…..lol
)
Unions, they can have them. Industrial sabbotage!
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:06 pm)Nightmare. This is the worst thing that could possibly happen. I got sick to my stomach when I logged onto this site today and saw the headlines. I don’t think it could get worse.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:26 pm)Does that mean you’ll be able to pick up a Chevy at WalMart in the future ?
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:38 pm)@MarkinWI
“Someone the other day said that if union workers want a career they should have been a doctor. Doctors were paid with eggs 100 years ago. They only started making real money when their patients did. Wake up America!”
No…the gist of what I said was that installing fenders shouldn’t be a high-paying career, with the exceptions of custom car crafters and high end artisan shops. It’s simply not that hard, and many jobs like it would be better done by a robot…although the union will never let that happen unless they can find a way to get union dues from robots…
Look…if those union workers want to be paid like a doctor…they should have become a doctor. I say this personally knowing doctors and lawyers that are compensated less than the $72-73 per hour for a UAW worker figure I see thrown around on here. That is freaking insanity.
If you want to make the big bucks…try taking up a career that pays big bucks. Don’t try to force companies to pay you more than your work is worth…you’ll just kill the company you work for – and THEN what do you have left? If you are the UAW, you end up begging uncle sam to bail them out (at the expense of the taxpayers elsewhere) so they can go back to burying their heads in the sand.
The only way to cure GM is to either crush the UAW wholesale…which no politician is going to touch, or let them go bankrupt to get rid of those ridiculous contracts. When it comes time for a new contract…if the UAW doesn’t play ball…move the damn factory to one of the many other states where the workers build cars and are damn glad just to have a good job. (You know…basically what Toyota and Honda are doing…)
The workers need to get over this entitlement mentality that they’ve built up.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:40 pm)Everything else comes from China, might as well be our cars too.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:40 pm)Sticking to the conspiracy theory side of things, does anyone know who the folks in this picture are??
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:44 pm)I would never purchase a GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicle if the company is owned by the Chinese. I would probably apply that rationale to most foreign countries and their companies. Purchasing a Toyota or a Honda is one thing, but not an American name brand owned by a foreign country. When Chrysler was bought out by the Germans several years ago, I stopped buying Chrysler vehicles and products.
That is not to say I would not buy a Chinese made vehicle that is also a Chinese name brand like BYD. It just could not be an ex-American brand name. I like Japanese and Koren vehicles, but I pretty well stop at that.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:48 pm)#5 Ben Robinson
“Sounds like lead based paint will be back before we know it.’
Plus a lot of nasty chemicals. Whatever the Chinese manufacturers wants to get “rid” of. It is being done now with many products coming from China. Why not vehicles. Plenty of places to add chemicals to the process to ship them out to the stupid Americans. We will buy anything if it saves us a dollar or two. Even poisons.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:50 pm)And regarding my post above…I’m even including benefits and vacation when I say I know doctors and lawyers that make less…
And yes…I really do.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:55 pm)67 DB Cooper Says:
November 18th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Does that mean you’ll be able to pick up a Chevy at WalMart in the future ?
————-
Walmart was actually toying around with this idea (selling green cars) about a year ago. I think they came to the conclusion they are not ready.. yet.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:06 pm)@N Riley
I’m guessing you dont drink Budweiser anymroe…..
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:09 pm)The real problem is not that a Chinese or another foreign company may buy one or all of the American automakers. The problem is the loss of manufacturing capacity. You had better believe that if a Chinese company (which is the same as saying the Chinese government) were to purchase one or all of the “Big Three” within a few short years all manufacturing would be done in China. Gone would be millions of jobs here along with our manufacturing capacity. During a war time period we would not be able to produce the war material necessary to fight a long, drawn out war. If this happens we might as well kiss our selves goodbye and our so-called “American Way Of Life”.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:10 pm)This is a quote from an interview with Elon Musk (PayPal creator and Tesla CEO) from Nov. 6th. The upcoming Tesla Whitestar/ Model S sedan has been rumored to use a volt-esque EREV system. Just a reminder that not everything is doom-and-gloom. There IS competition and other companies have seen the Volt realize that it represents the future. Essentially, the Roadster is a giant R&D project for the sedan… well, it’s nice to think about it that way.
“I feel pretty confident with our plan going forward financially. Customers are buying our car. And the Roadster is a really great car. The new transmission is working well. It’s an upgrade of the motor and power electronics as well, and we’ve been in production on it since September. We’re offering free upgrades at no charge. And the sedan is going to be a real knockout. The company will be successful.”
Full Article: http://tinyurl.com/5rc8lq
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:11 pm)#65
Right on Captjacksparrow. You couldn’t be more correct!!!
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:12 pm)Nobody has mentioned the price of oil. Why is it that it’s selling at $55 per barrel when the industry is begging for money to develop electric cars? IRONIC!
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:18 pm)#24 Statik
“I also had some more thoughts on Star Trek and how it relates to China…but I digress”
… Perhaps the episode of Next Generation where Planet A imported absolutely everything from Planet B in exchange for Planet A’s one and only export — essentially a potent narcotic “cure” for a disease which had actually disappeared eons earlier.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:22 pm)@Dave B
Funny how the price is down huh?
Sure there was no “Price Gouging” going on. Yeah right.
As far as I’m concerned, lower gas prices will not make me change my mind. I will still seek the Volt or other Electric vehicle.
I hope ALL Americans understand that eventhough gas prices are down, spending money on it does not stimulate our economy directly, it directly stimulates OPEC’s economy and their nation, not ours.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:33 pm)This may be too late but…..
You know what all the US auto makers should do? Make any or all of their “Hybrid” technology easily “Tweakable” to PHEV. The current Pruis ia apparently easy, hence it’s popularity in the PHEV world. Now if it was jeasy for Joe the plumber to convert his Hybrid then it would make the car a little more attractive. Ford has a good one. It’s the 2009 Escape. A company LionEV has a mod for it. Pretty neat mod. Now take that mod and add UltraCaps and you can extend the range and NEV speed/range.
FYI, Ford licensed the “Hybrid” technology from Toyota. Ford said it was soo close to the Prius’s technology that it was cheaper to license it from Toyota than fight an ongoing battle in court. That’s what I heard at least.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:43 pm)N riley, get a grip on your self man. The only war your country is going to fight now is internal. Who in their right mind is ever going to invade America? Just consider the logistics, its suicide for any invader and toxic for the survivors or/and invaders. Who has the capabilities? NO ONE EVER WILL. This is the crock of shit you guys have been fed for years. Its festered all kinds of wacky ideas , including nongun control. It shouldn’t be an issue of who owns the wrecks, but what happens going forward. For all you guys know, the chineese investment may actually help. Wait for any details before crying wolf.
Nov 18th, 2008 (4:48 pm)Hard to beat a country that uses slave labor and doesn’t care about the environment.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:00 pm)Without Chapt 11 and a reorg, GM can’t compete and will just be back for more money. We should have never bailed out the banks, we should not bail out the car companies. It is time to stop this nonsense. Maybe we can get what is left of our money back from the banks before they give it out in bonuses or throw some more big parties.
I haven’t paid much attention to Ford in years, but the new leader looks interesting and I was told he is actually an engineer. Maybe one car company will survive and maybe he will save the Volt as a last nostalgic bit of GM.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:05 pm)Well if GM goes so does the country.
People the home business is over your home is not going to go up.
IF we stop producing watch the entire USA turn into a post Detroit neighborhood.
That means if Detroit goes it will cost the USA over 600B+
So you spend 20-50 billion now to help them;
I see the math congress is fools not to support bailout.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:11 pm)All this “hat in hand” groveling by the Detroit 3 is really starting to tick me off. I think if GM gets this latest $25 billion in funding, they are going to have DELIVER THE GOODS … bigtime, in a few years.
I want to see GM build some vehicles that beat the very best from Japan and Germany. I want to see the car magazines have some RAVE reviews of GM vehicles … especially the CARS. Once America’s best engineers and designers put their minds to something, they can usually deliver.
I want to see Cadillac embarrass the hell out of Lexus and BMW with new models in a few years. I want to see Cadillac build THE “ultimate sports sedan” that newly successful people just “gotta have”. I want to see Chevrolet win over all these people who have gone to Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys over the past 20 years. GM is already pretty good at making SUVs and crossovers. They need to make those even better.
This idea of the Chinese taking over GM and Chrysler assets is just HERESY. Un-friggin believable. GM needs bring in some car FANATICS into upper management …. soon. Guys that simply will not settle for making cars that are merely “good enough”. I want very well thought out, well designed vehicles. Meticulous attention to detail like they say the German carmakers are.
If the best people in the company don’t think a particular vehicle will be a top vehicle in it’s category … don’t built it at all! Just refine the vehicles that ARE pretty good. Make those even better. I want top management guys that want to put GM, Ford and Chrysler back into upper echelon of car makers. Super high quality, cool looking cars. I want to see AMERICAN cars be in the top 10 bestsellers.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:18 pm)Curt,
This hillbilly buys American.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:35 pm)GM Volt Fan #87
I agree with your comment …”I want to see GM build some vehicles that beat the very best from Japan and Germany.”
They’re capable of doing just that but first the union (in its present form) has to go The government helped get the companies in this mess in the first place by passing laws that overly favored the unions. Laws that favor one group over another in commerce have to be rescinded. When that happens the US auto makers will be able to compete with anybody.
If China buys GM they will definitely become more competitive, because most the each car will be made in China and GM will become just another Asian assembly plant.
But when the Democrats and Republicans spend their time partisan quibbling its not likely much will change.
Nov 18th, 2008 (5:37 pm)Why are some here surprised? Do you hear, see and speak no evil? America’s manufacturing has been chopped up and sold abroad for many years now. Auto is just another in a long chain of industries to come under the knife. Our ignorance, greed and arrogance is our undoing. More of the SAME is not Change!
The party is OVER! It’s time suffer the hangover, clean the homeland and pay the bill. It took several generations of ignoring Constitutional limitations on gov’t power for first the socialists and now the neocons to run up OUR debt and it will take several more generations to pay it off. In the mean time we will have to suffer a MUCH lower standard of living.
MORE gov’t borrowing and spending “investment” will only create more debt for US to pay off. More “liquidity” only further debases the fiat currency and causes inflation. More we borrowing, printing and “investing” will only serve to deepen and lengthen the coming depression because it is ALL for nothing if the fiat currency collapses. We are only now just beginning to see the sunset of America.
This headache will be with us for a VERY long time, but we MUST stop drinking the cool aid, investing in the booze and sober up before we find ourselves on our own streets… homeless. Don’t be so arrogant as to believe it can’t happen to YOU!
We were ALL warned!
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs.”
– Thomas Jefferson
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:01 pm)A British Lesson on Auto Bailouts
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/business/economy/18car.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
-1
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:05 pm)hi noel park #50,
“Gee, I wonder where the scooter’s built? I read the article pretty carefully, and it doesn’t say.”
_____________________________
What I am saying is that I have a right to spend my money where I wish to spend it. Sure I have a Chinese coffee maker. It cost $30 and works pretty well. I made this choice.
I saw an article three months ago stating that China has an Camry clone that will sell in the USA for a price “well under $20,000″. The Chinese will sell the Chi-ry at a loss.
This is what happened 30 years ago with Japanese cars. They sold at 60% -70% of American car cost. We now see that the Japan car prices are equal to American car prices. This equality happened only after assuring our addiction.
Most American’s will buy a cheap Chinese car. Most will find a reason saying, “I just don’t have the money for a Mercury Milan”.
All I am saying is that you can take ME off the Chi-Kor Volt list. I have this right. Like it or not, I won’t buy a Chinese Volt. And as I had mentioned in a prior post, I don’t like my government tax money going to a car which carries a $15,000 Korean battery.
Make a simple American car, with American battery technology, and American workers. Make it good, and make it affordable. We have a $7500 tax credit to help you out. Get on with it.
=D~
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:08 pm)Dear Comrades:
Tricky Dicky Nixon sealed our fate when he opened the door to China and more recently Buba Clinton making China the most favoured trading nation with the U.S. They have bought us out they have followed the marxist doctrine quote ( WE WILL BURY THE CAPITALISTS AND THEY WILL SELL US THE SHOVELS TO DO IT) So welcome to the new world order we have been sold out by our politicians and the big corporations moving industry and jobs out of the U.S. for the last 20 years and debasing the currency with the deficit spending and trade deficits the party is over, the crowning achievement would be for them to steal the U.S. auto industry at fire sale prices. DO NOT FORGET THAT CHINA HAS 1 TRILLION U.S. DOLLARS TO BURN. Good luck Comrades welcome to Communism.
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:26 pm)Chinese government buying GM or Chrysler!?
I considered this possibility when GM first got below 10 bucks.
I’ll say it like I told a guy who called to offer me $1000 for a ’98 Blazer worth around $2500 sitting on the lot where I work. I’ll drive it into a lake before I give it away. And that was a fellow American.
I could get behind a government loan for GM more than a bailout. But I am becoming more and more convinced that a bankruptcy / restructuring might spell a brighter future. The big 3 absolutely HAVE to dump the unions and the baggage. Its far past sustainable.
To me, those guys are no less than organized criminals extorting unreasonable salary / benefit / healthcare packages from motor companies and would rather see them fail than give up their gravy train. Well, they’re about to get the ultimate correction.
And what IDIOT thought that ~anyone~ in manufacturing could be insulated from global competition except maybe for military / medical / aerospace markets? The Chinese are going to manufacture EVERYTHING they are technically capable of – and they are graduating a million engineers a year! And these guys work CHEAP ~without~ union bennies!
I’ve bought GM all my life. I will NEVER buy a foreign car or truck, manufactured here or not. If there are no auto manufacturers in the US after this financial episode, I’ll just buy used the rest of my life and take care of what I have.
Bite the bullet GM. Move production down south where if I don’t like my job I just find another and quit – like everybody else.
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:37 pm)According to what i’ve read, nobody here is going to be buying a chinese car. So you will make money by selling the volt in the US and not China. So make sure you think about your desicion of selling to China… if i were you, i’d would try to exceed in this business and fail rather than sell to the chinese.
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:41 pm)If the big 3 cannot make it on their own, then maybe it is time for a more efficient company to step in and take over. I got an e-mail today trying to explain that GM is not asking for bailout, but is asking for loans. If they have gone this far in debt, how can they pay back the loans. Wagoner and the other fat cats at the top can take a hike as far as I am concerned. They got GM into the fix it is in now and don’t know how to run a company unless it is pumping overly high wages into their pocket. Just like in the movie Gung Ho when the guy says that if we don’t produce then there is a Japanese company who will and we are done. I doub t that the Chinese or Japanese have a buttload of high paid executives sitting around worrying about a bunch of union people and how to make a profit.
-1
Nov 18th, 2008 (6:47 pm)#92 Dave K
I really hope we do not let the Chinese sell cars in the US. Why? For the very simple reason that China does not allow cars to be imported into China.
I’m glad that you will happily buy Chinese products but at some point I hope this country figures out that killing our manufacturing sector by letting Asian countries play games is not in our national interest.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:05 pm)Have you Yanks forgot that the Chinese are communists. You spent the later half of the last century fighting communism. They are stealing all your secrets and yet you reward them by moving all your manufacturing there. Death to communism! Long live an American owned GM.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:08 pm)Big surprise — not.
Get ready for more of the same going forward.
More bailouts = more printing press money = weak dollar.
Weak dollar = blue light special for foreign countries that save and keep their currency strong.
Thanks Greenspan, thanks Bernanke, thanks Paulson, thanks Republicans and Democrats, and thanks sleepy american voters that believe all that crap they see on the TV.
go u$a, go volt.
“We can’t make it here”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWRfBZY-ng&feature=related
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:09 pm)Cuba has done a good job keeping those old cars running for decades. I ran my 1970 El Camino until 1997 with more than 350,000 miles. Keep the old GM cars humming and running with some of those original union made parts in the bone yard!
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:11 pm)There are a few people above putting down Chinese quality control.
They only have poor quality control when it comes to food and non-food items. I guess that covers everything then, doesn’t it.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:14 pm)Lyle and the Big 3 – I as a loyal American have been for the most part sitting on the side lines as these discussions on this website range the full gamit, I’ve seen them go in every direction; from technical to financial to political. It’s a sad state of affairs when we have to even contemplate the thought of the Chinese buying a controlling stake in our auto industry. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!! IT CAN’T HAPPEN AND WE CAN’T LET IT HAPPEN!!!
Look, we were a long time getting here and we’ll be a long time getting out. Period. It’s time to hunker down and ride the storm out. It’s here and some of us will not survive.
I want to see the big three survive, I desperatly believe they need to. It’s a matter of national pride but more importantly it’s a matter of national security. We can’t afford to let them fail!!
However, I don’t support tax payer bail outs for any particular sector; financial or automotive. It’s money ill spent (might as well throw it in a fire). The free market created this mess and it must be allowed to sort it out. They need to get their house in order. Do it and Americans will rally behind them.
If we allow the Chinese to step in the door we will have taken a step down a road from which there is no turning back. Our country will forever be changed and not for the better.
As I said, it’s a matter of national security. Our auto industry is so intricately woven into our fabric of our national security there is no seperating them. Handing the Chinese this “package” is handing over our soverignity and national security. And for our Canadian friends, you too would be in the same boat.
It would be disasterous beyond all comprehension. Unfathomable.
Those who would comtemplate and broker such a deal are nothing but traitors and not Americans. And I would be the first to call for the traitors to have the harshest possible punishment delt to them. Yes I said traitors. Any CEO that leads the charge and brokers this deal is a traitor and deserves a traitors fate.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:15 pm)If the Chinese do buy GM & Chrysler, the real issue will be the transfe of technology.
I have to admit, the idea of a majority of Chinese car owners driving serial plug-in hybrids is appealing.
Maybe the Chinese will be the first to make the electric vehicle a practical reality for the masses.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:23 pm)Dave K,
You seem a bit annoyed today. I’m saddened because you are usually one of the voices of reason. Maybe you still are. I need you to be the yin to Statik’s yang.
P.S. Jerry Yang, need not apply.
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:35 pm)This sounds like a great idea! With Chinese labor, the Volt will probably cost a lot less than $40K. Can’t Wait!
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:37 pm)Here’s some facts to go with the rhetoric.
“Researchers at the Center for Automotive Research (CAR) in Ann Arbor, Michigan, estimated the short-term (1-3 years) impact on the US economy would be substantial were all—or even half—of the three Detroit-based automotive manufacturers’ US facilities to cease operations. CAR has carried out the majority of national level automotive economic contribution studies completed in the United States since 1992.
The immediate impact to the economy would be felt well beyond the Detroit Three companies, negatively impacting the US operations of international manufacturers and suppliers as well. Nearly 3 million jobs—239,341 jobs at the Detroit Three; 973,969 indirect/supplier jobs; and more than 1.7 million spin-off (expenditure-induced) jobs—would be lost in the first year if there is a 100% reduction in Detroit Three US operations, according to the study.
The 100% contraction scenario also results in a reduction of US personal income by more than $150.7 billion in the first year, and generates a total loss of $398.2 billion over the course of three years.
Our model estimates that a complete shutdown of Detroit Three US production would have a major impact on the US economy in terms of lost wages, reductions in social security receipts, personal income taxes paid, and an increase in transfer payments. The government stands to lose on the level of $60 billion in the first year alone, and the three year total is well over $156 billion.
—Sean McAlinden, CAR chief economist and the study’s leader”
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/11/study-examines.html#more
Nov 18th, 2008 (7:59 pm)hi D Lo #104,
“usually one of the voices of reason.”
________________________________
Statik makes some good points. As do most here. This is the American and the Canadian belief in free speech. A China man living in China wouldn’t be able to do this.
I am troubled with the rigid position of the big three and of the UAW Union. These attitudes must thaw considerably to have a chance at a satisfactory bail out solution. Or alternative aid plan.
My guess is that these attitudes will remain in place and that the hearings will linger along until the Winter recess of Congress.
We have two main factors here. The reality of three companies going broke. And a political system to address this issue. Reality and politics are two different things. Last week I begged GM to change their tone from “my way, or no way” to one of being politically palatable. There is a small window of time for this to happen. And this change hasn’t happened yet.
The big three MUST change their fear mongering appearance. And they need to start replying to Congress questions with, “Yes, I believe we can do this”.
=D~
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:04 pm)Watch the You-Tube Video at:
http://gmfactsandfiction.com/
E-mail your representatives in Congress by clicking on “I‘m a concerned American” and tell them that you support the Loan to GM, Ford and Chrysler.
And or Call 1-866-927-2233 to be connected to your representatives by phone.
Thanks for supporting America, GM, Ford and Chrysler.
Also please forward to fellow Americans.
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:14 pm)#108, draped in the flag,
“610,000 workers are employed by suppliers to the u.s. auto industry earning an annual payroll of $54 billion in 2007.”
Do you know what $54 billion divided by 610,000 equals?
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:29 pm)I wonder if most people realize just how dependent we are on foreign made items. 60 Minutes, a while back, stated that most of the ammunition we are using in Iraq and Afghanistan is made in China and around 10% are duds, do not fire.
As someone said a while ago, this has been building for the past twenty years and most Americans have been asleep. If all of our production moves overseas, who will have the money to buy anything? Real estate, insurance, equities?
What is less visible is the fact that we are moving our services companies overseas, as well. Our unemployment rate will probably go to 8% or 9% before this recession ends. If we lose the auto companies then we are looking at 11% to 12%, the highest since just before WWII.
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:52 pm)If you’re being paid by the government to build cars that nobody has the money to buy — is that really employment? Or is that really just a waste of their time and my money?
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:52 pm)Bravo Wagoner. Well done again.
Nov 18th, 2008 (9:14 pm)The UAW must go, its a sad day when a group of greedy and unskilled group of people can cause this many problems. They had their day now it is time for them to leave.
-1
Nov 18th, 2008 (9:24 pm)Comparing us to the British bailouts is silly and ignorant.
GM is the largest car company in the world
Like it our no anti American Toyota people
GM sells almost twice the amount of cars Toyota does in the USA.
So comparing the British small operations to the big three is absurd.
Nov 18th, 2008 (9:41 pm)It does not matter one way or the other. If GM and Chrysler are not sold to China, they are going to be beaten like c*** in the future anyway. In the next 20 years, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and Chinese auto companies will dominate the American market anyway–might as well sell them to China for some $ today. I say this, because I know first hand how the big 3 are terribly managed. In fact, I think the U.S. will not be able to compete in any sector other than perhaps the movie industry in the future.
Yes, UAW is a big problem. But more fundamentally wrong is the US education system. Laziness, greed, and short-termism are everywhere in the society, including university teaching. I teach at a top university here in the U.S. and I know how bad the education system is. The students are not interested in science and engineering, only people who know how to “present” themselves get good jobs etc. College students and graduate students do not work hard enough. The calculus course taught here is at joke-level compared with that in China, India, or Japan. So I will actually predict that in 20 years, silicon valley companies will be like today’s GM–losing competitive advantage because there’s simply no quality engineer to support the industry. In essence, the auto industry today is how the entire US gonna look like in 20-50 years.
Nov 18th, 2008 (10:30 pm)Great.
General Happy Motors.
Nov 18th, 2008 (10:46 pm)#88 Steve – That’s what you think.
Nov 18th, 2008 (11:54 pm)#79 Dave B wrote:
“Nobody has mentioned the price of oil. Why is it that it’s selling at $55 per barrel when the industry is begging for money to develop electric cars? IRONIC!”
Come on Dave, you should know better. You have been following things for quite some time. What’s Ironic is that people can so quickly forget about our recent oil problems. Well I have a tip for you Dave, the problems have not been solved. They only seem like it. We are not producing past our limit of 86 mbd. Just because the global economy has destroyed demand for now doesn’t mean we won’t be soon bumping back to that 86 mbd limit. Not only that, the low price of oil is stopping needed investment for new drilling and exploration. We need that investment just to keep that 86 mbd! Many fields are already declining and everyone knows we need to discover more just to keep even. You don’t know this? It’s common knowledge. I’m very surprised with your comments. You head is truly in the sand.
Nov 19th, 2008 (12:39 am)US Economy is like a air filled ballon, The air is dollars/ money. Outsourceing is like a small hole in the ballon. Some people misguided the way we can have more holes like the one which filled air initially and get more air inside. but new holes makes the filled air goes out , jobs goes out and some sales people and business people will say “we are making profit”
.But finally there wont be people with capacity to buy the services/ products. and finally we get economy like a baloon with lot holes and not air inside.
First Business needs to decide : we are going to do business here and we make products here . Lets not foucs only one profit, let me work for my country. People should decide we want to buy American products. Then you will see real reformation which build America.
“We train these people, we bring them to the country, then we don’t give them the visa to work here where they would pay lots of taxes,” he lamented. “I just don’t understand.” — This is from Google CEO. He missed one more part. — Why dont he train local people and get things done ? All the money he makes is from america and no ad money from rest of world and he wants import people and poor americans — view this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww
Nov 19th, 2008 (12:58 am)hi DonC #97,
“I’m glad that you will happily buy Chinese products”
_________________________________
Has anyone said they rush to the store to buy Chinese products because it makes them feel happy? I said that I have a choice as to where I spend my money.
Dave K #92 says: “…Like it or not, I won’t buy a Chinese Volt…..”
Hope this helps to clarify my position.
_________________________________
If the rights to the Volt go to China, then the rest of the world will be the ones who reverse engineer and repackage at a lower price. A fitting reversal. The American Volt will be the winner.
Will China call their production Volt “The Amerique”?
=D~
Nov 19th, 2008 (1:26 am)The money should be given directly to GM, but only to produce vehicles that will help them gain market share, and run on alternative fuels, and NOT fund another Corvette, Escalade, or Hummer line.
Ford has no plans for anything alternative powered, and Chrysler just copied the GM idea. Basically Ford & Chrysler should be allowed to die, as they present NO viable option to regain market share.
GM should be allowed to live, but ONLY if they prove they intend to produce alternative vehicles, and fuel efficient vehicles. And 23mpg SUV crossovers do not count as fuel efficient.
Nov 19th, 2008 (1:33 am)We are part of the problem. Buy products Made in the USA.
Loan to the car companies. OK, but it has to have strings – no more greedy payoffs to the guys on top while the little guy gets screwed.
Bailout / payoff to the car companies – No way.
Our economy is suffering. Companies lay people off. People have no money. People don’t buy anything. Companies lay off more people. People have no money. Gov’t can’t collect taxes because people and companies have no money. No money for fire, police, national security protection. No factories – sold them to China. Remember our history – during WWII – all of our factories were used to make guns, planes, boats, jeeps. Cars and whatever were put on hold. If we sell our factories and we get stuck in a huge war – not likely – but you never know – it’s good to keep the economy running so we have money – it’s good to keep our factories and it’s good to buy made in the USA products. Of course we are in a global economy – and so we buy a few things from China, India, where ever, that’s ok as long as they buy stuff from us too. We are buying nothing but imported stuff and they are buying nothing of ours except the companies, the factories, eventually our gov’t (check out all of the loans we have from China now), and then eventually our freedom.
Christmas is around the corner. Tell everyone you know to buy gifts made here. Buy your cars made here. If you can’t buy it here, don’t buy it.
If we lose this country, we’ll have no one to blame but ourselves because we let it happen – we helped it happen. Don’t let it happen.
Made in the USA.
Nov 19th, 2008 (3:30 am)I travel often to China on business. While the middle and upper class in China is becoming strongly westernized, I still don’t want to trade dependence on foreign oil for dependence on foreign cars.
Buick is a very popular brand in China – just an interesting tidbit.
Nov 19th, 2008 (8:32 am)So, what is the problem with China buying GM? I heard mention of Inbev buying Budweiser. InBev paid way too much for Budweiser, the American stockholders are crying all the way to the bank.
At this point, China buying GM is the only way the stockholders might get anything. So, I think they would be for it. And, lest we forget, isn’t this supposed to be a capitalistic country? The stockholders bought GM to make money. Unfortunatley, GM just has not been very good at it.
This economic jingoism is just dumb. Remember when the japanese came buying real estate assets in the 90s? We heard all this same jingoistic crap. Fortunately, our real estate market saw the japanese for what they were: fat, dumb, sheep ready to be shorn. Trust me, the Chinese aren’t any smarter. Once you get the Americans out of the cludges of the socialists (i.e. the UAW), they can cut it with anybody.
Nov 19th, 2008 (11:31 am)Let them buy whatever they want..
I am concerned about the intellectual property part of it though..
Still, Let the big 3 run their course just as the financial system should have. (Don’t get me started on THAT soap box)
We can certainly start up new companies.
Hey, now there is an idea, GM, Sell/spin off the VOLT side of the house into a different entity, one that is NON UNION, let the old house of cards come down and run with the new, lean, “Volt Motors” into production. I’ll wait for that.
Nov 19th, 2008 (12:18 pm)1) Determine what a reasonable living wage is in the United States.
2) Allow absolutely NO trade with any country that doesn’t meet it.
Call it jingoism, protectionism or whatever you like – I really don’t care. Free trade in a global economy is just fine IF you have a level playing field. You don’t.
Ultimately – and across the board – the standard of living everywhere on the planet will equalize. That means China has a long way to climb and we have a long way to fall. Well I’ll tell you friend – I’m not on board with that.
People in this country used to work hard all day for peanuts like the Chinese do now. We got past that. We still work hard but we get enough of a wage to have a decent standard of living.
Many of us are isolated from the effects right now. That won’t last long…
Nov 19th, 2008 (8:05 pm)How come some of the people on this website don’t understand that we can’t sell this industry (techology) to the Chinese. What don’t you people understand? For crying out loud!! You’d sell your souls for a buck!.
Nov 19th, 2008 (10:07 pm)”
1) Determine what a reasonable living wage is in the United States.
2) Allow absolutely NO trade with any country that doesn’t meet it.
”
don’t forget:
3) Watch as all of a sudden, no one in the US is making that living wage anymore
Nov 19th, 2008 (11:12 pm)Is this entire site — and all the hysterical call-your-senator replies — just a made-up shill for the bail-out which GM DOES NOT DESERVE?
It’s creepy. People complaining about Chinese quality, where the fuel-use standards on the cars the Chinese make right now are much higher than those in the U.S. — in fact, the big 3 have complained that they can’t make cars meet higher mileage standards in the next few years despite the fact that China makes them RIGHT NOW.
Please — China, help us!
Nov 19th, 2008 (11:35 pm)$75.00 per hour for Auto worker. I’m pretty sure this would include all benefits. 40 hour week = $3000.00 per week. Times 50 weeks = $150,000 per year.
Now for me that is a lot of money ! On the other hand I’ll bet more than a few who post on this web site make more then that.
How much an hour do school teachers make ? Be sure to figure the actual hours they work.
Plus many who rebel at the thought of $75,00 an hour make much more in salary, but that’s different because they don’t figure “by the hour.”
I do not want GM to go broke, bankrupt or sell to the Chinese. But if China offers GM stock holders enough money, who can stop it ? I doubt if anyone at GM saying “NO” will cut it.
Nov 20th, 2008 (1:19 pm)“3) Watch as all of a sudden, no one in the US is making that living wage anymore”
Then they will be unemployed because our living wage is effectively based on the minumum wage.
I can’t help but believe that if trade with China, India etc. just stopped, millions of jobs would HAVE to be created here to manufacture virtually everything Wally world, Tarjet and most everyone sells. And yes – inflation would ensue.
“despite the fact that China makes them RIGHT NOW”
I could build what would amount to a go-cart chassis, mount 30hp on it, wrap it in polycarbonate, punt crash / safety testing and probably get 60mpg. Would that make it safe to drive on an interstate freeway with 3/4 ton crew-cab trucks and 18 wheelers running 80mph?
I don’t have a problem with auto workers making $75 an hour if they earned that wage by getting a degree or even without a degree if they have a skill set that warrants it. Just having seniority or being a union member won’t cut it. If you don’t agree, fine. The point will be moot in a few months if Detroit doesn’t really clean house. If they don’t, their creditors will.
Jun 15th, 2009 (9:03 am)The Most important challenge GM faces is to win back the trust of the tax payers. Giving away billions of tax payer money is not going to go under good sights of the consumers
Jun 16th, 2009 (2:47 pm)“1) Determine what a reasonable living wage is in the United States.
2) Allow absolutely NO trade with any country that doesn’t meet it.”
Two fatal flaws:
(1) You have to convince all of your trading partners to follow the same rules and be able to police them closely.
(2) Assuming (just that) you could do it, how do you control inflation caused by greed from the companies in these countries that make the same product(s)? The only solution is doing away with capitalism – oops!
The ideal is anti-capitalism in the first place.
Jun 16th, 2009 (2:53 pm)the problem in this country is that we have let too many socialism ideologies take control. Do you know that workers unions were how the communist parties were born in countries like China and Russia? Let’s outlaw unions and the UAW’s, and reinstate true free market ideas- that’s what we should do now!
Oct 2nd, 2009 (12:29 am)Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons.