Sen. Harry Reid
The Democrats plan to give aid to the automakers out of the $700 Wall Street Bailout has met opposition from the Bush administration and Republicans in Congress. However, despite the previously expressed risk of not being brought to the floor, it is now being reported that the bill will arrive in the Senate on Monday for debate. The Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW president will offer Senate testimony on Tuesday. The bill will be brought to the House floor on Wednesday.
At least 15 Republicans votes in the Senate appear to be needed to get the legislation passed. Yesterday a second Republican supporter came on board, Kit Bond of Missouri joined George Voinovich of Ohio who was first in voicing support.
Other GOP Senators said they might support the bill if it contained legislation that limited executive pay, included management changes, required union compromises, and mandated the production of fuel efficient cars. Yes, Rick Wagoner might lose hos job.
Democrats expect the bill to pass in the House of Representative where they have a larger majority.
The Bush administration would prefer the aid come from the $25 billion retooling loan already passed, that might itself be retooled to allow immediate access not necessarily specific to future fuel economy improvements as it was initially intended. House speaker Pelosi indicated that approach of taking away the money meant to modernize factories to make more fuel efficient cars was unacceptable.
Analysts alternatively believe the cost to the government would be $100 to $200 billion in state aid and unemployment if GM were forced to liquidate (Bloomberg).
Source (AP)
This entry was posted on Saturday, November 15th, 2008 at 9:47 am and is filed under Financial, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Nov 15th, 2008 (9:56 am)No Bailout!!!
This is a black hole that we will have to keep pouring money into!!!
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:10 am)Bailout yes, but lots of restrictions. MPG being one of them
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:17 am)Well, it honestly depends. There’s no GOOD solution. We all have our opinions but what it boils down to is that tax money will be wasted anyway, either through unemployment for people who never learned another trade, or through an attempt to keep them working. I have a neighbor who works for a tire plant, and they have already had several shift cuts as a result of the SUV production cut, and will be facing layoffs soon. And this is in NC, not Detroit! It certainly is a rotten situation.
In this case, I agree with both sides. Pass the bailout, and attach conditions.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:19 am)The bailout is bad for the industry in the long run, right? It’s going to perpetuate poorly-managed companies that sell cars nobody wants. But in the short term, we as a nation are petrified of the collateral damage of losing these companies that are so integral to so many other industries and employ so many people. So it’s OK to let companies fail, but only small companies. Isn’t this what antitrust law is all about? Why don’t we bust up GM and Chrysler into 20 little companies and let the crappy ones fail?
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:19 am)Four years ago a yahoo search for “electric cars” would return links to about 5 or 6 golf cart manufacturers.
Times are changing quickly. There are now several dozen offerings of electric motorcycle, carts, and freeway capable cars.
The only answer for GM that I see, beside a radical downsize, is for all GM floor employees to decide to give a year back to the company. By this I mean dropping all comps, bonuses, and even OT pay. Be willing to work 48 hours for a flat 48 hours pay.
The board must also do the right thing and follow the example set by Lee Iacocca. Which is to willingly except less than normal wages until the financial storm is weathered. I believe a $500,000 per year cap is appropriate for upper management. With a cap of $100,000 per year for middle management.
If all agree to this, then no one will go hungry, and no one need be terminated. And this good faith gesture will speak loudly on the Congressional debate floor.
Being inflexible and backward looking surely means an end to life as Michigan knew it.
I wish GM luck in this weeks proceedings.
=D~
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:26 am)Getting rid of the UAW is the only way this would work …. otherwise just another black hole. Pay employees (ALL employees) $25 and hour and $20 in benefits will get GM out of this mess.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:27 am)NO BAILOUT!!! (think people, think)
No REAL American can NOT support socialist redistribution and central planning over the Constitutional because freedoms REQUIRE responsibility AND risk.
When federal bureaucrats override market forces and choose winners and losers, we ALL lose because risks are transferred from the gambler to the weak and politically non-connected true productive! Without REAL risk there can be no REAL responsibility and without REAL responsibility there can be NO TRUE FREEDOM!
Why? REAL free market competition reduces costs and spurs innovation. Central planning kills competition which destroys innovation and increases costs for everyone. Look at what it did to the Soviets! DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT HERE???
If GM (or any other corporation) is so poorly run that they face bankruptcy, then just throwing MORE money at it will only encourage IRRESPONSIBLE malfeasance. You need only look to the financial bailout for proof as they are keeping the money for themselves. GM needs to be bankrupted and liquidated so room is made in the market for better run companies with products that the market WANTS to buy.
Sometimes even lions become old and weak. When this happens, they need to die and feed the next generation. The circle of life happens in business too. It’s only natural.
Artificial life like what you propose always leads to destruction and pain.
Did you ever see the movie Frankenstein’s Monster? That abomination was GM under federal control. CENTRAL PLANNING ALWAYS CRUMBLES IN FAILURE!
We MUST let GM die to make room for stronger, more aggressive and more customer driven competitors. They are ALREADY sprouting up all around us and THIS bailout will kill them and feed GM’s MORE of the same.
The Volt (as much as I want it) is an excellent way for GM to lobby for OUR tax money. Did GM see this comming and that’s why they reversed course on electric cars? I SMELL A RAT!
REWARDING BAD BEHAVIOR ONLY ENCOURAGES MORE BAD BEHAVIOR
If you don’t understand this you are truly a FOOL!
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:32 am)One time Government backed Loan YES ! AT 6.5% just like the rest of us would get ! No restrictions SInk or swim GM Its up to YOU
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:33 am)Any bailout for the Auto industry is a bad idea. Let the poorly run companies fail. The ones that survive will benifit. Whats next? Textiles? Retailers? Citys? Where does it end? How much of this bailout money will be used to prop up GM’s foriegn operations? How many jobs will it save in Canada, Austaila, Russia, and China?
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:40 am)People want the bail out to SAVE THE VOLT! I like the Volt, not at $40,000 but I do like the Volt and would buy one if it were priced at $25,000 or less. If the Volt is not built …. guess what … there are more cars coming from other companies that will be just as good, if not better, and probably less expensive.
Save the Volt, Yes, but not at the price of the Government cranking up the printing presses yet again.
Ps-Can I get a small business loan at 0%-2% too?
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:43 am)Once again. The bailout is for the unions. GM can reorganize under Chapter 11, restructure themselves and produce the Volt without the huge union overhead. If you are not up on how bankruptcy works please educate yourself. It does not necessarily mean liquidation. It is a normal process in business and capitalism.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:48 am)The greater cost of unemployment and lost jobs will trump the issue of bad management. I believe there will be conditions set in stone that will salvage the building of the Volt. I’m glad the Democrats are bringing this issue to the floor monday. This will shine the spot light on those who want to perpetuate our addiction of oil. The Republicans will have to explain this on the national stage now.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:50 am)Bailout – no bailout, I don’t care as long as it doesn’t slow down the Volt. GO VOLT!
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:51 am)Of course, we al knw that the Dems care nothing about whether business corporations and whether theyfail or not. But they do care about those UAW labor union workers whose unions have contributed millions to make sure the Feds try to save their employers – you know, the sme ones they have brought to the brink of bankruptcy with their exorbitant wages. I notice that there are NO conditions in this bill to force the union to take a 50% pay cut, which would actually solve the automaker’s problems. This is a political payoff, hidden by a bunch of never-before-expressed Dem
Party concern about the effects of a business failure. The Dems are lying thru their teeth and their “solution” is anything but. What a joke.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:58 am)This bailout is sounding more like the standard bankruptcy process everyday. Massive reorganization is needed. No, it’s not going to be pretty but we’re in a big mess.
Please, everyone search Peter Schiff on YouTube or check out the Peter Schiff thread in our forums. Amazing video you all must see. He was dead right on the economy when everyone, I mean everyone, was laughing at him. The guy has a crystal ball. Seriously, he just really understands how economies and markets work.
I bring this up because he is against the whole bailout idea. My guess is that GM will get their billions and be begging for more in less than a year. Why? What has changed? Are Americans going to start buying the cars GM makes in the next two years? Why would they? Why would anyone? Volt excluded. We need to start saving more and not getting more into debt by purchasing a new car. Even if consumers want to are they going to be able to get the loans? I hope not because that is a big part of our problem – living beyond our means.
The only thing that is going to save GM is the electrification of the automobile. It might take massive help from the government to get it here quick enough or we can just let it get here slowly on it’s own. Either way, It’s coming. Is GM going to be a leader? They are right now. The Volt is the key. Letting it drop will go down as the biggest mistake GM ever made, even trumping their dropping and crushing of the EV1s. At least that decision was based on much better reasons (expensive batteries, low gas prices, forecasts of plentiful oil, small environmental issues, small energy independence issues, hydrogen car just around the corner estimates, etc.)
Killing the electric car this time will be a colossal mistake. Everyone but the most conservative voices are starting to agree that we are going to be having petroleum supply problems in over the next couple decades (best case). Many think it’s right around the corner. The Volt technology is one of the best new weapons against that crisis.
Even bankruptcy should not stop the Volt program. In fact, the government should insist on that program being funded first if bailout or bankruptcy activities are undertaken.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:08 am)Don’t forget. The bailout money doesn’t just grow on trees. Well, in our system it’s just printed up but it only lowers the value of the dollar. It only builds our debt and it must be paid back later. Debt is what is killing us. Living beyond our means.
Yes, stabilize the financial markets so they don’t spiral out of control but don’t think you can just throw fake money all over the place and that will be the same as having a well organized corporation that is ready to compete in the global marketplace.
Reorganization and looking in the mirror at your flaws is hard and painful work. Printing money for a bailout is easy.
What do you think is the right thing to do?
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:15 am)1. Giving billions of dollars to the US auto makers is a high risk. There are several management actions which should be corrected. They are the core of the problem and by injecting funds we have a daunting task ahead to clear those problems.
I attribute 70% that GM will end up failing even after such massive bailout. Why? Because people do not like their merchandise.
2. People in this forum argue that a bailout should be granted so that GM can savage the Volt Program. The Volt seems to be a good start, but other companies are planning to build electric cars which are more cost effective than the Volt. The Volt as it is has been advertised would be unviable. The ROI on the Volt should take years of massive production to come to fruition. Is GM going to be around to wait? If GM does not see profit enough from other car, how can GM succeed in the mid-term?
People want to start a socialist country. It is not looking good, folks.
3.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:16 am)Here we go again, with Lyle’s unabashed biased reporting… ie. the last sentence, the implication that it’s either bail out or complete failure (liquidation, chapter 7) for GM. Folks, chapter 11 is a perfectly reasonable alternative, it does NOT mean “failure” or “liquidation”. Tons of companies have gone through chapter 11 and emerged much stronger and competitive in the long run. Chapter 11 will make sure executives (Wagoner and other execs) don’t walk away with golden parachutes, allow GM to renegotiate union contracts, etc etc. The Volt will still be built! (though bailout of no bailout, it may very likely be delayed until the economy improves and oil prices go back up, as while I still want BEV’s to be built, even I admit it will be a hard sell with gas currently under $2/gallon and likely headed much lower).
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:24 am)Alright, 7 GM finance threads in a row!
Side noet: Glad we finally have a new thread…it was killing me staying away from that last one.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:26 am)Rather than give GM a loan, why not by the company instead. The value of all of the common shares is around 2 billion right now. Since Obama has all the answers and good will right now, I am sure he will turn it around.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:27 am)Could the government take full ownership of the Volt program? Buy only the division responsible for the Volt, fund it and make it a reality. That is our solution right there. Then let the rest of GM, Ford and Chrysler fight fairly in the market.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:30 am)John, it has been reported GM needs $12 billion dollars to shut down selective factories. Buying the company would be the second step to get us torward USSR. Vodka, compadre?
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John S. Says:
November 15th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Rather than give GM a loan, why not by the company instead. The value of all of the common shares is around 2 billion right now. Since Obama has all the answers and good will right now, I am sure he will turn it around.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:34 am)I am an senior engineer. I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering and lack only 2 classes of completing a Masters in System Engineering. I currently earn well over $100,000/year.
GM – I believe in the Volt. It is good for you, good for the nation and good for the world. I believe in your ability to revolutionize the auto industry.
If you can not find engineers willing to dedicate themselves to this end – perhaps at much lower salaries – then give me a call and I will come, willingly, to work for you for much less than what I earn today.
GM, you can and must bring the world the Volt. Show the way for the whole industry. At stake is not only the Volt but the future of the entire auto industry.
BTW – My son who will graduate in Mechanical Engineering this Christmas is also willing to come.
Sincerely
Dwayne and Jeremy Scott
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:35 am)What happened to stories about the Volt? I can read this on google!!!
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:36 am)Questions:
1. Given the publication of news that GM, Ford and Chrysler are not far from bankrupcty, knowing that, how many people will be buying cars from those respective organizations?
2. If those companies do not profit enough, how in the world can they inovate? I do not get that.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:39 am)CEO/chairman Rick Wagoner has $2.2-million base salary for 2008.
Don’t you think salary and hourly pay should be based on the sell of your products.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:40 am)Dwayne, instead of getting a paycut on your six figure income, why you do not go to GM and buy one more GM car out of the parking lot? In the meantime, buy a Tahoe to your son, too.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:42 am)Wagoner should be making US$2.20 / year.
Cisco CEO John Chambers reduced his salary to $1 during the .com burst. Why Wagoner not making the same?
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:43 am)The same Democratics who want to bail out the Detroit automakers (ie union members) with billions of tax dollars are the same die-hard union supporters who help helped cause this mess. Detroits problems were certainly not all caused by the unions. There was a good amount of bad management and poor quality products the past 30+ years. But man, now the Democrats in congress (and Michelle Obama) want to pass the so called “EMPLOYEE FREE CHOICE ACT” next year to try and get non-unionized auto maker plants in the US “unionized”…..so not only will the US automakers continue to decline (losing more jobs), but we are now giving the foreign car makers more reason to cut back production here and to not build new plants here (even less jobs for Americans). Kinda makes me think the phrase “I’M UNION!” means “I’m anti-American” at this point. Well, the Republicans were a dud the past several years they controlled Congress….now its the Democrats turn again I guess…the Koreans or Chinese will probably now deliver the first Volt-like car at a reasonable price…they already lead in some of the battery technologies.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:55 am)Guys, such bailout to American car makers is the right step. Towards Moscow.
Iti s scary to see what is going on – and many supporting it.
There is no such a thing as bailout. The government already billions to banks. Now make those banks collective lend money to GM. Government should stay out of the way of automakers. It is enough to print money we do not have to give to banks and financing institutions. Investing in automakers is another story though.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:55 am)I do believe that without the Volt there is not way there would be much support in the public or the government to bail out GM. In a way this might be the Volt’s first chance to save GM and its not even built yet.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:57 am)How about Ford and Chrysler?
Did they come up with any mid-term solution for electric cars?
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:03 pm)#
Dave K. Says:@5
I agree with your idea. That would be a small price to pay for the employees. One year will go fast and will save GM many billions.
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:06 pm)Folks, not even Mercedes-Benz could manage Chrysler. It sold it at loss. Do you think the government overseeing will be able to regulate it? Let’s be sincere and realistic please.
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:06 pm)#23 Dwayne
“If you can not find engineers willing to dedicate themselves to this end – perhaps at much lower salaries – then give me a call and I will come, willingly, to work for you for much less than what I earn today.”
Hear hear!
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:12 pm)Spirit of America right there. We are proud of you, Dwayne!
==============
#23 Dwayne
“If you can not find engineers willing to dedicate themselves to this end – perhaps at much lower salaries – then give me a call and I will come, willingly, to work for you for much less than what I earn today.”
Hear hear!
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:16 pm)Ranng, chrrang, bugggh. I can hear those printers working! America needs the Volt! This is America, YES WE CAN!
Print out those $25 or $50 billion Congress, and do it quickly!
We will be fine. I want to have my Volt, too. I think I still can qualify for a loan for up to $470/month… I hope.
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:40 pm)Those that own shares in GM would be stupid if they weren’t in front asking Congress for money. DUH.
btw, you bloody-shirt-waving anti-Communist demogogues: Bailout = not paid back, Loan = paid back. The corporate credit market is all but closed to GM, either because of their P&L situation or because of the global credit crisis, possibly both.
…AND you bloody-shirt-waving anti-Union demogogues, why aren’t you insisting that ‘white collar’ employees — oops I mean “hard-working upper-class Americans who happen to be melanin-challenged in their neck” — take a pay cut?
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:47 pm)Lurtz # 38
Loan = it *may* be paid back. I would make that important correction. Lend money to an insolvent institution, especially without overrsight which has been proven to lack in the “loan” for the financing sector, and then we can say good bye to most if not all of our billions.
My point is, if we had tons of money, I would not mind to take the risk. When the country is at $11 trillion dollar debt, think about what you are doing, otherwise we may find ourselves going down the hill as a country with GM, too.
My conclusion is:
1. Let the market correct itself. Use a fraction of those $50 billion to provide some money and serious incentives to deliver electrict cars of the future. I do not care which company. Likely is going to be a company which can understand that in order to change the landscape of autos at this critical time, a mass vehicle need to be produced, at an affordable price, probably less than $15K. Probably more like a Volkswagen old bettle (VW means car for the people) with a small engine able to transport 4 people who need to pay other bills.
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:51 pm)How about Ford and Chrysler?
Did they come up with any mid-term solution for electric cars?
______________________________
Ford has a solution available. The hybrid Fusion is just a few months away. It will be a direct competitor to the hybrid Camry, getting close to 40 MPG.
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:51 pm)Why don’t the UAW buy out GM they have plenty of money, then they can run GM the way they want to, call it what they want, make all the cars they want, charge what they want even make the Volt and get paid whatever they want to pay themselves
Nov 15th, 2008 (12:56 pm)John, sorry to say, but a 40mpg common Fusion car seems too little, too late in my humble assessment. The way I see it, is that now that the news the Big 3 may go bankrupcty at any time, many people would refrain to buy a product from one of those 3 organizations when competitors with solid balance sheets offer same or similar products. I would personally be willing to buy a Volt from GM even if the company is under Chapter 11. I would not buy a single other car though because I feel I would not take the risk. Unfortanely I believe many people will think like me.
Ford has a solution available. The hybrid Fusion is just a few months away. It will be a direct competitor to the hybrid Camry, getting close to 40 MPG.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:01 pm)Anyone thought about this gloom scenario:
The Big 3 sales are still profit in some emerging countries.
They did not want to die, and therefore rush to launch the Volt to capture the American carisma and compassion – and funds. They are doing that even if the Volt is not profitable or viable.
Is the above scenario stupid?
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:02 pm)#39 Laura
Insolvency is not synonymous with bankruptcy.
Insolvency means an otherwise functional company cannot obtain liquidity in to continue operations, and providing that liquidity prevents a failure. This was the reason or giving billions to AIG. You may argue that even with a loan to provide liquidity that GM is still unable to make ends meet, but that’s where the debate lies.
…And fundamentally, a national deficit is a misleading indicator of economic health, and neither should the existence of a deficit preclude more deficit spending when a recession exists. It is economically healthier to have deficits during recessions than cutting spending during recessions.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:07 pm)sorry to say, but a 40mpg common Fusion car seems too little, too late in my humble assessment
__________________________________
For that large of a car (way bigger than Volt) and low $$ overhead (since the same body is available as a non-hybrid), why wouldn’t that make sense for an immediate high-volume solution?
As for late, Volt is still years away… so far that a plug-in Fusion could beat it to market. The urgency of how quickly profitable vehicles are needed does not seem to be taken seriously by many here. Hopefully, the bill in Congress will push for quick deliverables so those automakers become self-sufficient quickly.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:12 pm)“the bill will arrive in the Senate on Monday for debate.”
They were out all this week. I wonder what vacation they were celebrating? Perhaps it was Veterans Day week??!
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:19 pm)The Volt, or a Volt like vehicle, will get built with or without a bailout or GM.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:25 pm)It’s ironic that folks keep chanting “no bailout” while stating that others need to “think”.
Those who are actually thinking realize this is not GM vs Toyota. This is the United States vs Japan. The United States is losing because Japan has been “bailing out” their auto industry for 50 years.
All our car money will flow to Japan, just like our oil money flows to the mideast.
Obviously there need to be conditions to qualify for these loans … new management, pay cuts, non-gasoline cars, whatever … in order to drive the right behavior long term. It’s only “socialism” if the government plans to run/own things long term, and that’s surely not the plan.
This is a one-way trip folks. Once our USA checks out of the auto industry, we will NEVER check back in. Just like the television and VCR markets that we invented, then later gave to Japan. This is WW3 people, but this time (fortunately, so far) it’s being fought with money/markets instead of bombs/guns. After all, there is no need to bomb the USA when you can just buy it instead.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:27 pm)Even with a loan or bailout, “a bridge”, GM still has to sell cars in the future to pay back the tax payers, do you think they will be able to sell gas cars like they used to in the future? I don’t, so is the loan or bailout just a bridge to nowhere?
bankruptcy is the only answer, we will still get the Volt, and unions will renegotiate and so will whats remaining of the CEOs
think about it
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:29 pm)Normat @ 21 says let the government take production of teh Volt and let the Big 3 fail…
the point is that ll of the trickledown effects will be a disaster for one thing…1-200 billion in unmployment for states to handle? all of the current creditors will get nothing, costing others jobs. and let the government take the means of production?
NO WAY! I agree federal dollars can help fund the Volt, but by no means would I support them taking over.
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:35 pm)Years ago Chrysler was “bailed out” with a huge loan. The company recovered. The U.S. got its money back WITH INTEREST. And many U.S. auto workers remained employed.
We are in a similar, but worse, situation here. The whole economy is a shambles. I’ve lost half my life savings and I’m not alone. Most people simply can’t get loans to buy cars, no matter how good or bad the cars are. (Few people can pay cash for a new car.) This is not the car maker’s fault. It is the freeze up of the economy that has done it to us all.
I just don’t think we can afford the 2.5 million jobs that would be lost with the foundering of the big three auto makers. Even though this situation is partially their own fault, it is not all their fault and it is in OUR best interest to keep these companies afloat for the good of us all.
Give them the bailout (as a loan) with all kinds of restrictions. That way the U.S. will eventually get the $$$ back with interest and I might still have a shot at getting my VOLT!
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:43 pm)From Lyle’s post:
House speaker Pelosi indicated that approach of taking away the money meant to modernize factories to make more fuel efficient cars was unacceptable.
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“We” have already bailed out GM once to modernize.
“We” have already bailed out GM a second time with cash incentives for car buyers of electric cars.
Now “we” have to bail out GM a third time so that they can pay their creditors.
And, the 3rd bail out has to be done in just the right way, with unrestricted cash payments.
How many more times? My guess is that we are just getting started.
GM is the guest who came for dinner and will not go home..
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:45 pm)#51 Joe
why do you say millions of jobs will be lost, in bankruptcy the companies still go on the workers still go on, they don’t stop running in situations like this, they will survive
they just downsize, that’s what they need
Nov 15th, 2008 (1:53 pm)A bailout will not solve the labor problems of GM and in fact will probably tie GM’s hands on addressing the labor costs. In addition, a bailout will probably tie GM’s hands in other ways too. They apparently have a very bad business model and I believe a bailout will not let them fix it.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:09 pm)This isn’t exactly an original idea, as one or more bloggers suggested it yesterday, but when you think about it, it has a lot of possibilities. What if the US Government (USG) placed a firm order for 1 million Volts? Say it was $40 billion, which would be a nice addition to the GM balance sheet.
President Elect Obama has said that he wants 1 million plug in hybrids on the road by some date certain, whether it’s 2012 or 2015. Many bloggers have said over the months that the Volt can be a very important national security asset, for obvious reasons. I beleive that it would have a lot more benefits for our lives in the USA than many of the exotic and obscenely expensinve “weapons systems” which we purchase for our military without even batting an eye.
I could justify in my mind taking the cost out of the military budget. I mean, how many jet fighters, submarines or aircraft carriers does Osama Bin Laden have? But, if we buy less oil from his clients, he will have less resources to threaten us. The Volt would be as effective, or maybe more so, than most of the other weapons we have in the “war on terror”.
Many have cited the role of the US as the “Arsenal of Democracy” in WWII. We went from zero to the mightiest weapons producer the world has ever seen in the space of 2 or 3 years. The USG fronted the cash to build or the factories, and more cash to gear up production. We could do that with the Volt. Substantial progress payments along the way would forestall any more cash crunches. If one manufacturer couldn’t keep up, they brought in others. Ford and Chrysler could produce Volts, and pay a royalty to GM.
When they come off the assembly lines, the USG sells them to the public and gets its money back. By the time that happens, odds are that gas will be back up into the extreme pain zone, and there will be no trouble selling them. The USG would probably make money, LOL. If the whole thing bellied up, it would be the cost of about 3 months of the Iraq war, so what’s the problem. I mean, it looks like it would be less than the total of “executive” compensation siphoned out of Secretary Paulson’s $700 billion honey pot.
I totally agree that, if we can bail out banks, “merchant” and otherwise, insurance companies, hedge funds, credit card companies, and everybody else who somehow magically qualifies for the honey pot, we can !@#$ well bail out what remains of our manufacturing base.
Whoever says that, if you bail out the auto industry, where does it stop, is a little too late. That horse has already left the stable. We have already bailed out all of the above, and the auto industry is just next in line to try to get a turn at the “pot”.
Clearly, it is beyond me, and GM-Volt.com, to work out all the details of such a thing, but the idea really resonates with me. Thank you for it bloggers.
History has shown that President Jimmy Carter was 100% right whan he said that energy independence is “the moral equivalent of war”. too bad nobody had the moral strength to do something about it. I only hope that it’s not too late.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:13 pm)#55 noel park — on the government ordering some large number of Volts
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It’s a wonderful idea. I wish the government would structure the bailout this way because then something good would come out.
As it is, we will be bailing out various investors, speculators, and future owners of the ZR-1. Now the ZR-1 is a wonderful Corvette, a bit over $100K, and why its future owners deserve a bailout is beyond me, so I’d much rather we order some Volts.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:20 pm)#15 Texas – “Please, everyone search Peter Schiff on YouTube or check out the Peter Schiff thread in our forums. Amazing video you all must see. He was dead right on the economy when everyone, I mean everyone, was laughing at him.”
Let’s not get too carried away with Schiff. He’s something of a whack job. A lot of economists, Paul Krugman being perhaps the most obvious since he writes an op ed column, have been warning of the the financial problems for a decade. After the demise of Long Term Capital there were many people arguing about the need for deleveraging and more regulation of derivatives. It’s hardly like Schiff was a voice in the wilderness.
The difference is that the others who warned of the problems have quite different nostrums. That may be because they have actually spent time studying the problems and writing academic papers rather than learning on the fly and spending their time pumping their books designed for public consumption. Rather than Schiff why not read the suggestions from people with real credentials? Just an idea.
I actually couldn’t agree less with Schiff that Obama will be horrible for the economy. He’ll be absolutely terrific. This entire process is cyclical and Schumpeterian. The government builds infrastructure and the private sector then uses it for innovation and economic expansion. During this phase many forgets the need for the foundation, which is why at the moment you have the conservative Republican nut cases arguing that there is no difference between infrastructure projects and sending money to hairdressers. Then we rebuild the infrastructure, which is what we will do now, and the process restarts itself.
Obama recognizes that manufacturing is part of the infrastructure. Do we need three automobile companies? No. Should GM survive in its current form? Probably not. But in order to move forward we need a revitalized manufacturing sector and for that we need auto manufacturing.
For too long this country has favored financials over manufacturing. We tax financials at half the rate we tax manufacturers. We tax financial workers at much lower rates. And now we happily toss $700B at financial institutions but scream bloody murder at $70B for manufacturing institutions. C’mon, we talk about how Chrysler has no products, but how about AIG? Here’s one lousy insurance company which has sucked up $150B and, as far as I can tell, doesn’t have a single distinctive product in its portfolio.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:25 pm)Why doesn’t the government just order a bunch of tanks, jeeps, trucks and any other military gear they need that GM could prouduce and the military could use? that would save them
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:38 pm)Absolutely help the American auto industry.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:43 pm)And I REPEAT!!…..
The great GM…
To all those who keep pan handling the “Buy American” or be patriotic for the auto industry that is an icon of the American people or save GM. You are complete blithering idiots. Let’s debuff your great GM and it’s patriotism to YOU/US, the American people. Hit the links below…
GM Hybrid in China
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-GM-China-Hybrid.aspx?menuid=272
GM Ships jobs out of us
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2004-03-23-gm-outsource_x.htm
GM Plant in India
http://machinist.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1525&Itemid=2
GM Opens Plant in Russia
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-General-Motors-Opens-First-Russian-Plant.aspx?menuid=248
A couple may be old but the point is this, your “Great American icon of your peoplehood” has deserted you and gave you a big fat black eye. Just like an uneducated battered wife you continue to support the negative aspect of your existance and ask others to do the same, then ask “may I have another” by suggesting the rest of the American people as well as their children who will inherit this, to bail your assailant (GM) out.
I can go into my Ford Explorer right now (Yes I did buy American) and take snapshots of any given part to prove it’s origin is NOT AMerican. All US Auto manufacturers only need to meet an X% to claim this. It is not possible to make claim of a 100% “American made” auto. Quit your bitching about those who did not buy American
The Union…
The Union had it’s good points in the area of safety. Most have been ironed out 15 years ago. Safety is now priority one even in non Union plants. My gripe is not that someone got paid more than the other. It’s the pay per performance. See my previous post in the other thread (http://gm-volt.com/2008/11/13/poll-should-the-us-government-give-emergency-loans-to-gm/). The links provided are perfect examples on how the Union made it more “Viable” to manufacture out of the US. It was for cheaper labor. That’s right, it was easier to train non english speaking humans to do the exact thing an American employee does for a fraction of the cost. That’s your Union at work. So thank the Union for BLOATED paycheck because now there will soon be no UAW. Self destruction. Just like a prasite that leaches on the host, it will eventually suck it to death.
So for all you number counters out ther, lets do the math. GM Get the $25Billion LOAN. Yes I agrre it’s a loan at this point. Now EVERYBODY knows the Volt will not generate income/revenue for at least 4 years. By then GM will be dead. Now, knowing that this LOAN does not need to have the first payment till the end of 5 years, how much money will they pay US back? How can it be possible to pay anything back with negative cash flow by design? That’s right, it’s all gone. And you want to bnail out this abusive husband of yours (GM) who beat the sh1t out you.
Obama….
He won’t be able to fix sh1t. Bad enough he can’t pass federal security or CIA background checks. His primary campaign contributers (ok biggest) was the UAW. Talk about special interest. But suere, yeah, lets help the leaches that sucked “Great American Icon” to death. That makes a lot of sense. I voted for the other guy but I wish Obama a big good luck.
Tesla…
This a specialty car. Not for the mainstream public or “Joe the plumber”. He’d have to mortgage his home to be able to afford half that car. Or maybe not because he may be “Upsidedown” on his mortgage because of the housing crissis. I’m getting tired of hearing Tesla here. Nobody can afford one in this forum.
You fuk1n “Bail out GM” morons make no GOD DAMN sense. Get a clue!
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:46 pm)My opinion is less about greening the world than protecting America and saving our standard of living. After serving 20 years with the Air Force, with nearly all missions aimed directly at protecting the oil highway for Robber Oil Barons of the MIddle-East, a change is of course needed. The industry chief to change is auto. Our oilmen in the White House did a lot in the background to assure the Barons and ensure we Americans remain oil addicted through an oil-based, military-based protection of the Oligopoly supply system of Oil. If you believe oil is free-market, study this more fully – OPEC wasn’t built to compete. Exxon enjoys a quiet partnership with OPEC pricing. We Americans are surviving, and for now, keeping our standard of living through the illusion of borrowed oil dollars and vast debt due in large part to oil.
As a military member, and my wife also retired US Air Force, both realize the path we are following today, our young men and women now serving will be dying again in the Middle-East, trading American blood for Middle-East oil. Only in the future War will be waged with increasingly better financed villains supporting terrorism with petro and in many cases Saudi dollars (a.k.a., sent over from Americans driving oil/gas driven cars).
IT’S TIME TO MOVE AWAY FROM Middle-East oil, and support American sources of energy. I add, and built by Americans. CHEVY VOLT: American-made, AMERICAN-FUELED.
Pardon the screamer in the post above me with the eloquent vocabulary. Apparently calling everyone @!#!@#@! names and a fool substitutes for real world, first hand world experience by so many clearly more intelligent posts. Perhaps we can let him win his argument. Let’s start by competing his wages directly with a Chinese worker to get him started down his path to open market, ME FIRST, success his way.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:48 pm)Casey #58
>> Why doesn’t the government just order a bunch of tanks, jeeps, trucks and any other military gear they need that GM could prouduce and the military could use?
On e-Flex platforms!!!
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:52 pm)Dear Lyle,
As a fellow physician I do not know how you have the time to read all these posts. I salute you for what you have begun with this site. I hope you are able to read this post.
I have one suggestion. Ask GM to accept $1000 deposits for a USA/GM/Volt from all on this site. This would guarantee one of the initial cars for each deposit. Theoretically with the 45,000 who are on the waiting list we could generate 45 million dollars.
I have noticed many complainers and whiners on this blog, I have however noticed many, many more who are patriotic, thoughtful, and ready to help. I believe our representatives in Washington and GM will listen when people put money where their mouth is. Put me down for the first check. I am willing to risk this money for the success of the Volt.
I have owned GM products all my life and I do not want to see the company fail. I consider the “bailout” to be an opportunity to MAKE GM do the right thing by requiring strings to the loan. It makes the taxpayer a very potent stockholder/board member in GM.
=D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~NPNS Voltarian
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:57 pm)Unbelievably, the poster (screamer) doesn’t even realize those governments force manufacturing to be done in their country. If you want to sell there, you have to build there. Novel idea. Something only we apparently feel is against our nation’s principles. China will also soon make Boeing build a plant there in order to sell there.
When something doesn’t work – change it. Time to change our principles to be more competitive. Absolutely, the government should step in and help the auto industry before these well paying American jobs before all we successfully have due to stubborn insistence on outdated dogma helps us all to become Walmart – non union, low paid store clerks where the screamer, if he gets his way, would have us.
Nov 15th, 2008 (2:58 pm)Ooo, can’t you feel the BAILOUT LOVE here! It’s only 25 BILLION DOLLARS people and a 2.5 year wait for the VOLT. I’m sure that GM will find a way to sell people gas cars for TWO years.
Rick always said that GM was in good shape until end of 2009, now he can’t pay his bills in January. He doesn’t even know how to run the company, or at least have a backup plan. Aw come on, let’s gve them more US taxpayer’s money! Doh!
No Bailout ! Correction Required !
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:02 pm)Casey #58… ThomC #62
>> Why doesn’t the government just order a bunch of tanks, jeeps, trucks and any other military gear they need that GM could produce and the military could use?
–On e-Flex platforms!!!
You know, I was being facetious when I wrote that, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.
* $40b guaranteed sales
* Money and time to establish and refine the technologies
* Money and time to refine the production process
* Money and time to explore different secondary power systems (e.g. diesel, bio-fuels, hydrogen fool cell)
* The military gets fuel efficient vehicles… great for logistics and support!
* Military units in the field would under go an outstanding testing regimen and feedback system (“This Volt survived Afghanistan… what could YOU possibly do to it that’s worse than Afghanistan?)
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:06 pm)Carl, good point. I’ve offered $10,000 per car I’m interested in. Nothing came back. Reading a few areas, the money couldn’t be used, or somehow get lost in the company balance books without CEOs and managers going to jail. The money would need to be banked in safety, i.e., go unused. Not much help unfortunately.
I’ve cash for my car if that day arrives.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:08 pm)#58 Casey:
There is actually some sort of a program in progress to replace the current military Hummer with a new generation vehicle. GM, Ford and Chrysler are not involved. The contractors I recall being mentioned include Boeing, Northrup, General Dynamics, and something called “Armor Holdings.” How much do you think that will cost?
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:09 pm)*sigh*
GM getting a bailout is not “throwing money into a black hole”.
Do you honestly think that our government would just give GM billions in loans and say ‘have a nice day’? With all those Republicans opposing the bailout, do you think they would agree to that (if they even agree to a bailout at all)?
NO!
This bailout will almost 100% surely include SERIOUS CONDITIONS to ENSURE it’s purpose will not be likened to throwing money into a black hole. It’s most definitely going to fix GM from the top down.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:12 pm)In a case of tird old men thinking they still control the destiny of the American automakers, the head of the extortionary UAW, an apparently senile old fool named Gettlefinger, is demanding no concessions for the union. Perhaps the only way to remove unions is to simply kill those companies that they have taken over. I’d hate to see GM and the other automakers go under, but NO billions of subsidies for the union SOBs. THEY are the whole problem, everyone who knows their total compensation ($135 per hour, much of it in fringe benefits – those aren’t taxed – another way the unions have increased their wages but not their taxes and screwed the American public again. And again. If the status quo is the plan, then let the automakers die and allow others to arise that will know better than to hire any workers into the companies. All labor should be contracted out – that would provide competition and a free labor market, the same as for everyone else in this country. For unskilled, uneducated, unemployable folks like the majority of UAW workers, they have no leg to stand on in making demands. Another outlandish piece of nonsense by the folks who have killed off virtually every industry this country ever had. Unions truly suck.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:18 pm)Aiding the auto industry is cheap :
Q. How does a nation avoid exporting $700,000,000,000.00 dollars annually to nations that hate us?
A. Start with the auto industry.
Q. What company intends to build a car that requires NO gas or oil to run 40 miles in a mass production capacity? A.k.a., what strings should be attached to aid.
A. General Motors. The car the Chevy VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED?
Q. Has there been bailouts in the past?
A. Ford and Chrylser. Net effect. The taxpayer loans made the Treasury more than $1 billion dollars. For their survival, an added $250 billion came into the US Treasury from employee wage income taxes and from corporate income taxes through the next decades of their producing cars.
If GM brings the VOLT to fruition, this will be a game changer and redirect the auto industry toward the strengths we Americans possess. Support at this time will be the bargain of a generation. If GM goes under, there is no short term alternative to getting out of Oil Wars and Oil Addiction we are gripped in.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:20 pm)In the new global economy can any American auto manufacturers continue to pay UAW wages and compete with the rest of the world?
What might have worked three decades ago for Chrysler may no longer be possible in the US. Revitalizing our automotive sector may
not be feasible without wage concessions….and not just the CEO’s.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:22 pm)Kent Beuchert – for goodness sakes the Republicans lost the elections. Get over it. Start reading the new matra letters. Helpful for your positions. That stale old dogma just isn’t selling any more.
Times have changed, yet the dogma appears to have not.
- You are well aware the Unions, not GM, holds the liability on healthcare. GM no longer pays or funds for healthcare.
- You are well aware their union wages are little different from non-union shops. In non-union shops, significantly more of the sweat earnings goes to management in the non-union shops which may be your real concern
- You are well aware the UAW and Auto arrangements in years past tiered employee salaries to normal auto industry wages. UAW compromised and their employees that come in make less than many non-union shops. Yet the dogma continues to play.
Consider material somewaht newer than 1970 please and rejoin the group.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:28 pm)Well, there is truth to this all Americans must match their foreign wages. Let’s start posting our wages, compare our salaries to foreigners and see where we all end up.
Funny. The number one free trader group in America, “let the foreign wages come in” used to be Information Technology workers here. Then one day, India showed up, then China, then South Korea. Guess which group is now the most deadset against open markets and competing their wages? Surprise! Amazing how the world appears differently to those staring down the barrel of the gun they helped load. Just a matter of time for the rest of us in a truly free market. Volunteer your position to compete. Sounds fair. Load the gun.
The only wages not going down are CEO’s. Study how their salaries are set if you want to understand something to offer a salary critique about. They’re more than 100 times foreign CEO pay in identical production slots. Must be nice to have the person whose salary you voted on also vote on and set your own salary. An enigma in America. Me, and most of us, I doubt have such a luxurious relationship.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:33 pm)#66 ThomC:
Someone in the Army recently did a study and figured out that the cost of a gallon of diesel fuel delivered to the point of consumption in Iraq is $24.00. This is after factoring in all of the costs of transportation and security.
Alas, they use diesel generators to power almost all of their facilities because the local power grid is either nonexistent, or so fragile that it can’t supply the civilian population. Even we are smart enough to realize that, if the civilians are getting 6 hours of power a day, tapping our massive consuption into that already overstressed grid is not going to help in the battle for the “hearts and minds”.
As a result, they are experimenting with all sorts of portable solar power devices. They are spraying foam insulation on the outside of air conditioned(!) tents. There are also ongoing research projects re hybrid trucks.
E-Flex would be severely challenged in such an environment of essentiallly no power grid. I cannot imagine that Afghanistan is any better.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:44 pm)#69 Tbay, and the rest of you bailout fans
Just how do you think GM will pay back a loan in however time it needs with out selling cars? they don’t sell them now why do you think they will sell them later? get your heads moving, start thinking with your brains not your hearts.
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:46 pm)Has anyone seen the process of putting a car together at GM.
No offense intended but it’s really placing part “A” into Slot “A”.
a trained monkey can do it.
50K wages for this and retirement benefits for ever.
Bye Bye union and proverbial lazy fat fork lift drivers. Deal with it like we all do.
Bye Bye Ricky.
1. Bail out means we all get shares of stock.
2. Volt must be fast tracked!
3. Share platform with other GM vehicles now.
4. Sell license to use this technology to Ford and Chrysler.
5. This quickly gets us off foreign oil.
6. Each US Family Gets one employee cost vehicle….keeping production going and the banks MUST RELEASE CREDIT FOR CHRYSLER, GM AND FORD VEHICLES
7. TAX INCENTIVES FOR USA BRANDED VEHICLES ONLY!
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:50 pm)#76, wow I went back six times for comas and s’s, that was fun
Nov 15th, 2008 (3:54 pm)#75 Noel Park
>> Someone in the Army recently did a study and figured out that the cost of a gallon of diesel fuel delivered to the point of consumption in Iraq is $24.00. This is after factoring in all of the costs of transportation and security.
…Alas, they use diesel generators to power almost all of their facilities because the local power grid is either nonexistent, or so fragile that it can’t supply the civilian population.
Good points, but I don’t believe they nullify the fundamental validity of my idea. E-Flex has the ability to be about 20% more efficient than a typical ICE (regardless of fuel type) because the ICE runs at an optimized RPM (or one of several RPM ranges). The fuel savings, along with the flexibility and redundancy of the E-Flex platform would appear to be very attractive to a military logistician even if the command did not have ready access to an electric power grid.
Besides, the primary objective is to supply GM with enough money to remain viable, yet allow the American taxpayer to get something for their dollars.
Nov 15th, 2008 (4:17 pm)#71 jfb said
Q. Has there been bailouts in the past?
A. Ford and Chrylser. Net effect. The taxpayer loans made the Treasury more than $1 billion dollars. For their survival, an added $250 billion came into the US Treasury from employee wage income taxes and from corporate income taxes through the next decades of their producing cars.
=====================================
In the past we did not let the least capable manufacturers go out of business. The result is that we now have too many manufacturers. We would be better off today if the Detroit auto industry had been forced to downsize earlier.
Nov 15th, 2008 (4:36 pm)#79 ThomC:
Well yeah, I’m sure they have enough vehicles just running around in the US to make a big difference. Plus Germany, Japan, Korea, Spain, Italy, and lots of other places with highly developed electrical grids. Although I would like to pull back from a lot of those places if I had my way.
Actually, I am promoting E-Flex Presidential and other high USG official motorcade vehicles. If all of the limos and Suburbans were E-Flex, I bet that we could save a few million gallons. And I won’t add LOL because I am totally serious. Lead by example! I wonder if you could have an armored Volt?? How cool would it be to see President Obama running around in a Volt?
Nov 15th, 2008 (4:45 pm)Bail out No Way.. Let file chapter 11 reorganize.
The unions are the problum with the auto Industries.
The UAW and the demacrats are in bed together…
get rid of the unions old Contracts, then watch our auto industries
flourish. Union workers are over paid for the poor quality Product.
Thats why, only US Big 3 are doing so bad…
Nov 15th, 2008 (4:46 pm)I just read through the last thread, and there seemed to be some people wonder why I didn’t post:
Couple reasons, I didn’t think Lyle wanted a whole bunch of comments (especially on the ‘poo-poo’ing side) other than just a simple signoff. Secondly, I’m not American. And finally, I just didn’t want my name attached to it all…seeing how we are in the midst of a endless run of post basically about the same thing, I figured another opportunity would present itself…and viola!
Nov 15th, 2008 (4:48 pm)The fact of the matter is that America doesn’t need enough cars and trucks to keep GM’s factories running, and nobody wants to buy those assets for the same reason. They’re running into a classic problem of financing over-expansion and then failing to sustain the debt. Debt locks businesses into a fixed growth requirement. It prevents them from matching supply to demand.
I’m convinced a Detroit bailout will be a bottomless pit, and we’ll eventually have to cut the cord after taking on hundreds of billions in public debt in a futile attempt to save it. The automakers effectively hold an underwater mortgage where the value of their financed assets have dropped well below what they owe in debt. Bankruptcy is the only solution. Maybe their debt could be restructured, but only after filing for bankruptcy.
GM isn’t too big to fail. It’s too big to succeed.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:01 pm)I thought I would post a article from my home nation (Canada), about the bailout. As we are a significant part of GM/Ford and Chrysler manufacturing and selling base.
Apparently, our guy is a little more critical of the bailout plan:
——-
Flaherty (Canada’s Finance minister) said Canada’s auto industry must come up with a solid plan for the future if it wants federal funding.
“Nobody wants to see taxpayers’ money taken — and then in effect wasted — where a company is not going to survive … we want to see the plan for survivability,” he said.
Flaherty added that the automakers need to move towards building “technologically sophisticated” cars like fuel-efficient hybrids that will do well in a slumping market place.
“There needs to be a bridge towards sustainability,” he said, adding that the Conservative government has already created the $250 million automotive innovation fund.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081113/economy_cda_us_081113/20081113/
————————–
Give the man a cookie! He gets it. “If a company is going it survive and get taxpayer’s money, we want to see the plan for survivability”
Exactly, we will help you out, if there is some likelyhood of success.
Have we ever heard at any point in the last two years of GM’s ‘Plan to Start to Make Money’? Nope. And that is the problem with not forcing them go C11. America is just going to patch a few holes in a rudderless sinking ship.
Flaherty isn’t even saying it has to be a good plan…lets just see you have one.
I have no dellusions of bankruptcy being a slam-dunk success for GM. To me C11 does not guarantee GM anything, it could never emerge and eventually dissolve into history, but it at least gives it the opportunity to be profitable. It gives it the opportunity to have the ability to make cars and sell them for a profit, which kind of sounds like a good idea. At the very least a bankruptcy judge will force them to make a plan and hold them accountable to follow through on that plan.
/it is nice to be able to post again…I missed you guys
//puts flame retardant suit back on
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:26 pm)a recent study revealed that a bankrupt GM will cost that taxpayers
$ 200 billion !
GM just needs $ 25 billion to get back on its feet . looks to me that it’s worth bailing GM out .
now here’s what rick wagoner needs to do once GM gets the baiout money. get his former coach at Duke , Mike K. to inspire all GM employees with his brand of leadership and teaching. .
obama’s appointing an auto czar is akin to basketball USA’s appointment of jerry colangelo as the head of team USA’s basketball program . mike k and jerry as well as the players of team usa – who will be like the thousands of GM employees -dedicated themselves to regaining basketball supremacy for the country which was missing for years. the result was the olympic gold .team USA is #1 again ! enuff said.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:31 pm)This is exactly the problem with the ‘big 2.8,’ even on death’s door we get comments like this:
————
No more concessions, UAW’s Gettelfinger says
COLUMBUS, Ohio — United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said today that the union won’t make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.
Gettelfinger blamed the problems the auto industry is suffering from on things beyond its control — the housing slump, the credit crunch that has made financing a vehicle tough and the 1.2 million jobs that have been lost in the past year.
“We’re here not because of what the auto industry has done,” he said. “We’re here because of what has happened to the economy.
http://www.freep.com/article/20081115/BUSINESS01/81115039/1118/RSS
—————
Yupe, they aren’t there because of anything the auto industry or they have done. Everything was 100% great 18 months ago…no problems at all, money was just flowing in. Nevermind that GM was billions and billions in debt… and while they had about 35 billion in cash and lines of credit available then, and were still losing about 500 million a month…yeah, good times.
I honestly can’t believe the union would even put this position forward right now. Are they trying to shoot themselves in the foot? What good is it to say this on the eve of the US government maybe cutting the ‘big 2.8′ a cheque and giving union workers a few more months on the job? Couldn’t the UAW president just simmer down for a few days? This makes people/politicians less sympathetic, he is going to get a earful when they make him sit down in front of committee.
I wonder what institution could break the union’s back on this stance? Hmm, I know there is something…just can’t remember what it might be, hmmm. What government vehicle could get GM’s labor costs way down? There has to be something in the United States code that could help …hrmff. Nope, can’t remember.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:38 pm)“If you keep doing what you’ve been doing,
You’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting.”
Massive changes must be made before sending a single dollar to GM or any other US automaker. Clearly, the UAW are more a part of the problem than they are a part of the solution. Start by scrapping the agreements with the UAW, and if possible, cut them out of any bailout dollars. Next, replace the upper management that have made one bad decision after another. Restrict wages and bonuses on management to the point they are reasonable, and truly tied to honest performance. No more pay for idle workers. Ditch the unprofitable & gas-guzzling vehicle lines and focus on EREV and fuel-efficient vehicles. It’s a sea change, boys – sink or swim.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:42 pm)The domestic automakers, at least GM, have made SIGNIFICANT progress over the past several years – finally freeing themselves from some very bad contracts and costs of the past. IF OUR BANKING and FINANCIAL institutions had not crashed, the domestic automakers would live to fight another day and would look very different in 2 years. Change cannot happen overnight.
However, out BANKING and FINANCIAL institutions did CRASH, and the auto industry MUST have access to capital to survive. Federal Loans are necessary, and necessary NOW.
I am reposting my comments from yesterday:
Our Government has some fault in the current state of the domestic auto industry and granting an urgently needed loan is just the first step. CAFE is one of the reasons that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are in such dire straights.
One problem with CAFE – it makes ZERO business sense in an environment of $2.50 gasoline. When gas hit $5/gallon last Spring, EVERY auto company began scrabling to cut production of trucks and increase production of cars. They all raised incentives to get consumers to buy trucks and lowered the incentives they had been offering on cars. The problem with Manufacturer supported incentives is that they all happen AFTER the vehicle has been built. Instead, our government can lay the groudwork for directing consumer demand BEFORE a vehicle is built. How?
I suggest SCRAPPING CAFE altogether. Yes, get rid of it. Next, replace it with tax incentives for consumers who elect to purchase fuel efficient vehicles. Phase them out over time understanding that a manufacturer will have higher development costs to bring new technology to market and thus may need to charge more for the technology at start of production (same as cell phone – Apple iPhone???) Here’s an example:
ELECTRIC POWER capable of going 40+ miles on electric only:
2009 through 2011 – $7,500 consumer tax credit for purchase
2012 through 2013 – $5,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
2014 through 2015 – $2,500 consumer tax credit for purchase
ELECTRIC POWER capable of going 60+ miles on electric only:
2009 through 2011 – $10,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
2012 through 2013 – $7,500 consumer tax credit for purchase
2014 through 2015 – $5,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
2016 through 2020 – $2,500 consumer tax credit for purchase
ELECTRIC POWER capable of going 100+ miles on electric only:
2009 through 2011 – $15,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
2012 through 2013 – $10,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
2014 through 2015 – $7,500 consumer tax credit for purchase
2016 through 2020 – $5,000 consumer tax credit for purchase
Now for Petroleum Powered Vehicles (ICE’s):
Government EPA Rating of 30+ Highway MPG with minimum of 85% Domestic Content (as measured on Marooney Label):
2008 through 2009 – $2,500 consumer tax credit
2010 through 2011 – $1,500 consumer tax credit
Government EPA Rating of 40+ Highway MPG with minimum of 85% Domestic Content (as measured on Marooney Label):
2008 through 2009 – $5,000 consumer tax credit
2010 through 2011 – $2,500 consumer tax credit
2012 through 2015 – $1,500 consumer tax credit
Government EPA Rating of 50+ Highway MPG with minimum of 85% Domestic Content (as measured on Marooney Label):
2008 through 2009 – $7,500 consumer tax credit
2010 through 2011 – $5,000 consumer tax credit
2012 through 2015 – $2,500 consumer tax credit
2016 through 2020 – $1,500 consumer tax credit
Also, as much as I dislike taxes, I have to say it is time for a FEDERAL GASOLINE TAX to set a floor for gasoline prices. We saw consumer behavior overreact to fuel economy when gas prices hit $5/gallon. Now look at the sales statistics with gas back at $2.50/gallon. GM’s lowest days supply of inventory is on full-size pickups and SUV’s. Their highest days supply is on small cars. Consumers have short-term memory – they are back buying trucks. Set-up a tax code that places a $3.50/gallon floor and taxes fuel at 10% over that. The money raised goes directly into our alternative fuel infrastructure – creating the network of distribution points for alt fuels, hydrogen, electric power, etc. – and to reduce the national debt.
Pass this legislation and you’ll see a WAVE of new fuel efficient product hit the market. The government has had it WRONG – you drive technology advancement by creating DEMAND.
All tax incentives MUST be based on production in North America – we need to protect our jobs – which in turns protects our tax base – which in turn protects our country. Everyone wins. Message to Washington: Just Do It.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:44 pm)Bailout yes with restrictions.
I think Rick Wagoner is getting a bad rap as no one could have foreseen what has happened. He sold trucks because people wanted trucks. He has moved fast forward with the Volt, Malibu, Corvette, Cruse, Cadilac, etc. GM has the best cars that it has had in fifty years. He has been making GM a true global company.
The blame for the mess we are in is the Government for not moving on Alternate fuels, the banks for raping the people and for us for taking loans beyond our means, and for not pushing harder for alternate fuel to get us off foreign oil.
Nov 15th, 2008 (5:53 pm)#87 Statik
I wonder what institution could break the union’s back on this stance? Hmm, I know there is something…just can’t remember what it might be, hmmm. What government vehicle could get GM’s labor costs way down? There has to be something in the United States code that could help …hrmff. Nope, can’t remember.
———————————–
Oh man, it’s on the tip of my tongue! Oh no, lost it.
If you remember, please pass that option on to the Democrats. I’m sure they’ll be thankful. They can’t seem to come up with any option but a bailout.
Nov 15th, 2008 (6:28 pm)Question for #69:
This bailout will almost 100% surely include SERIOUS CONDITIONS to ENSURE it’s purpose will not be likened to throwing money into a black hole. It’s most definitely going to fix GM from the top down.
_____________________________________________________
If that’s true, then perhaps you can tell us where the money from the last bailout went. Where did it go?
Best regards,
D’Artagnon
Nov 15th, 2008 (6:36 pm)Not trying to muddy the waters here but passage of the FairTax would lower American cars costs dramatically in all foreign markets and create a substantial competitive advantage for all our exported autos.
The same holds true for all American-made products, of course.
Most of the world’s car makers would scramble to build plants here too, creating untold new jobs for Americans. Most of the world’s top manufacturing companies’ CEOs have said they would move plants here immediately if the FairTax were passed. (This was told to me personally by its author, Congressman John Linder.)
So there is a real plan for curing America’s economic ills. Its called the FairTax. GM doesn’t need to restructure nearly as much as America does.
Just hope some other country doesn’t beat America to the punch.
Nov 15th, 2008 (6:51 pm)I don’t want to scare anyone here, but I am going to post something on the ‘actual Volt’ itself.
This is the latest media release from GM (in blazing high resolution), of the Volt’s interior. You’ll notice a few things are different, no ‘Green Leaf’ and no more flat ipod plastic, we have contour bumps on the buttons. We also have a integrated two cupholder, instead of two seperate one (I use this feature in my G6 to put my sunglasses or cell phone down in). There are some other subtle changes, venting, etc.
The old interior shot was labelled ‘Volt Production Show Car,’ the new one is ’2011 Volt,’ so I’m guessing this is the official real deal:
Enjoy:
NEW HOTNESS:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/X11CH_VT031_01.jpg?download=049744
OLD & BUSTED:
http://gm.wieck.com/forms/gm/02-Volt.jpg?download=049441
Nov 15th, 2008 (7:05 pm)#76,
GM does sell cars; in fact, they sold 9.37M in 2007 – more than any other automaker. Despite Toyota taking the lead in sales this year, GM sells millions of more cars than the next biggest automaker, Volkswagen.
With several new cars on the way (Cruze, Camaro, SRX, Lacrosse, CTS line, etc.) and continued expansion overseas (Russia, China, and other places), GM will continue to sell a butt-load of cars. When the new UAW contract kicks in 2010, GM will start to make a profit on these cars. Paying the government back should be quite feasible.
Nov 15th, 2008 (7:09 pm)#92,
“If that’s true, then perhaps you can tell us where the money from the last bailout went. Where did it go?”
Well, assuming there were no conditions or stipulations attached (like this next one will likely have), the money from that bailout most likely went into a black hole.
Nov 15th, 2008 (7:10 pm)#90 RamZ
“I think Rick Wagoner is getting a bad rap as no one could have foreseen what has happened.”
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No one? Tell that to peak oil theorists. Truck sales trends reversed as of 2004.
——————————-
“He sold trucks because people wanted trucks.”
——————————-
Well, I’d argue that he sold trucks because of profit margins, and that’s no excuse to build undesireable cars.
——————————-
“He has moved fast forward with the Volt, Malibu, Corvette, Cruse, Cadilac, etc. GM has the best cars that it has had in fifty years.”
——————————-
Remove Corvette and Cadillac from the list. Those are niche cars that do nothing to ensure GMs viability.
Let’s stick to the present. What mainstream products is GM offering now? The Cobalt, the Aveo? Total product neglect.
——————————-
“The blame for the mess we are in is the Government for not moving on Alternate fuels, the banks for raping the people and for us for taking loans beyond our means, and for not pushing harder for alternate fuel to get us off foreign oil.”
———————————-
Only economics can and will change behaviour.
Do you remember the resistance to government subsidies of biofuels? How people argued that biofuels consumed more energy than they produced, and caused increasing food prices?
People are selfish. We won’t push for alternative fuels unless it saves us money. And what will “pushing” do if there aren’t any alternatives?
As for banks “raping” us. We didn’t have to go to the party and leave with the sleaziest guy with the best pick-up line.
Nov 15th, 2008 (7:17 pm)RB. Do you really think if Ford or Chrysler had gone under no other manufactuers would have come? The Chinese are busting at the seams to be next.
For taxes, if a Fair tax were the cure all, then why has’nt all manufacturing companies move to all those places that have one. Canada has something similar. Not much happening there than what was already happening.
Now, imagine the fair tax (regressive tax on the middle-class) were passed. Imagine the 23% sales tax on every home sold. Try to sell your house in that environment. Try to sell much of anything in that environment. That would bring the cost of the volt to roughly $50,000 a pop with the (un)fair tax. The only people who would benefit are the super rich. Why? Because their portion of income subject to such a tax is less than 10% by all accounting used.
Nov 15th, 2008 (7:56 pm)D’Artagnon #92
Which “last” bailout are you referring to? The $25B for automakers that has not yet been distributed or the $700 FInancial industry bailout which has just been restructured by Poulson? Do you believe, since our economy is still sinking and credit markets are still pretty frozen, that nothing has been achieved by the government actions? If so, I believe you are dratically underestimating the gravity of the financial crisis, which is actually just the worst symptom of the actual economic disease, and the general economic mess we are in.
Nov 15th, 2008 (8:12 pm)@bfalaska 64
“Unbelievably, the poster (screamer) doesn’t even realize those governments force manufacturing to be done in their country.”
Obviously you have never been to a manufacturing facility/environment nor had the curse of employment there. Sure they are building cars there, but what are those medium and small boxes shipping out of the plant to the plane. Well, they’re obviously not cars. Then what are they? Their subassembled parts made to be shipped back into this country to finally be installed into yes, one of your American cars. I have been in these meetings where it was agreed to move the manufacturing over seas because labor was cheaper. It was less expensive to build parts there and pay to freight them back here. That ripped a big hole in my gut when that happened and I did voice my opinion. At the end it was all about the mighty profit margin. The opportunity was there to take “Portions” of the manufacturing overseas and the smoke screen is your perception that “governments force manufacturing to be done in their country.”. It’s not just a car they build/assemble there.
Yeah, believe what you percieve.
Now, my intentions are not to flame on you. If in fact you do/did serve in the military as well as your wife, then Myself, my wife and family thank you from the bottom of our hearts for your service. That was my initial career attempt but health conditions with severe asthma foiled my plans. So again, your service is well appreciated in as well as anyone else who serves/served in any branch of our US Military.
My 10 years on the floor starting from a floor monkey to management gives me the insight I am trying to foreward to you. I left for a job in the “Technical” computer electronics field for a company started in Palo Alto (guess who) and guess what happened there. They did the same thing and sent the entire product lines to Panang Malaysia. Pissed me off when we had to train them for our jobs.
Screamer am I? Yes.
Nov 15th, 2008 (8:22 pm)#85 statik asks “Have we ever heard at any point in the last two years of GM’s ‘Plan to Start to Make Money’? ”
========================================
Yes, we have. It involved new models and increased capacity for large numbers of high-end SUVs and trucks.
Obviously it was not a good plan.
/glad you are back
Nov 15th, 2008 (8:51 pm)Someone needs to come up with a four seat car, very simple, which can reach 60mph highway. Comfortable enough, but inexpensive, below $15K. That would sell like water.
Unfortunately I do not believe the VOlt is going to be answer if priced around $37K.
If GM builds an inovative car but at unrealistic prices for most people, the problem remains and GM would not profit and fail miserably with or without bailout.
Nov 15th, 2008 (8:58 pm)Must be going senile, I could swear I read half these posts yesterday.
Statik good to see you back in the frey. So how do you propose funding the C11, as credit is no longer available from private sources? I doubt its going to be there for a company that will not even contemplate bankruptcy. AKA red ink Rick.
Also who would buy a vehicle from a company in C11 if the warranty is not government backed?
Nov 15th, 2008 (9:28 pm)No bail-out for bad management.
No bail-out for sweetheart retirement deals.
No bail-out for lifetime health insurance benefits.
Let the free market system work.
Only the strong will survive.
Nov 15th, 2008 (10:59 pm)#102 NZ David says,
Must be going senile, I could swear I read half these posts yesterday.
Statik good to see you back in the frey. So how do you propose funding the C11, as credit is no longer available from private sources? I doubt its going to be there for a company that will not even contemplate bankruptcy. AKA red ink Rick.
Also who would buy a vehicle from a company in C11 if the warranty is not government backed?
—————————————-
Surprisingly enough, I’m not opposed to a bailout in every form.
Ideally, I’d like to see a couple of them move to C11, and one be dissolved in C7 and absorbed by the other two (gov’t would have to step in here and disqualify foreign automakers from acquiring pieces of the C7 entity..but hey, that doesn’t cost anything).
The remaining two would shed their debt/legacy obligations as much as possible in the process, and go through a extensive re-org (with the US gov’t proactively giving them as much extra-leeway inside bankruptcy as they can, without the EU freaking out too much).
Obviously, in these economic conditions there would be no way for a company to get out of C11 unassisted…and you don’t want them perpetually in it (ala Delphi), so at this point the gov’t would ideally step in, and back them. Because the process is virtually mapped out ahead of time, the transfer into C11 is one more of a procedural event…basically getting classed as C11 to get ‘some things done’ then bouncing out of it. (As you say, no one particularly wants to buy vehicle from someone they think is not going to be around for them to do the warranty work).
The 25-50 billion would be a tremendous amount of capitalization for the two remaining automakers at this point coming out of bankruptcy (unlike the situation they are in today). These companys would have the ‘monkeys off their back’ (no debt, streamlined products, union’s back broken), so 25 billion to each of them would go 10 times farther, as it would not be used to simply ‘service’ obligations to keep them afloat.
With now being ‘overfunded’ on a relative scale to their size (probably half what they currently are) and balance sheet backed by the US government, they would be a company that instilled confidence in their customers–primarily that they were not going anywhere and you can believe in a NA automaker again. Most importantly they would have a great shot at being a success going forward…and I think that is all we really want in this process.
Thats my thought anyway. I have some ‘fancier’ ones, but they are unlikely, so they need to be discarded.
I think perhaps this is the eventual route that will be taken. Unfortunately, it looks like they are going to have to ‘blow’ 50-100 billion learning that they need to develop a plan before just writing a cheque.
If the Republicans aren’t just blowing smoke and they really do shoot this down, GM is in serious trouble. Whether you believe the world is a better or much worse place with or without GM, bureaucracy can easy stall this process and make the eventual and natural outcome all but assured. GM may have no choice but to go bankrupt very soon, there is no knight in shining armor if the government is gridlocked, (I figure early December is when the tap runs dry), they may be the one that goes C7 by default.
/guess we will know this week
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:19 pm)@Tom #101
There will be a car sort of close to the $15K. It’s the Th!nk. It has the 60mph (maybe more I foget), and get over 100 per charge. Battery lease is unknown. Leasing makes sure they “Own” the battery and you are not responsible for it.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:19 pm)Alos, I think it will here late 2009.
Nov 15th, 2008 (11:23 pm)Damn, can’t spell after a few beers….
I meant Also…
Nov 16th, 2008 (1:35 am)60 WarrenPeace: You are complete blithering idiots. Let’s debuff your great GM and it’s patriotism to YOU/US, the American people. Hit the links below… GM Hybrid in China… GM Ships jobs out of US… GM Plant in India… GM Opens Plant in Russia
Uhhhh… GM is playing the same game as other automakers. When Toyota builds plants outside Japan, does that hurt the pariotism of Japan? No! It makes the Japanese people prouder of their home-grown corporation.
Nov 16th, 2008 (1:47 am)96 RickJ: What mainstream products is GM offering now? The Cobalt, the Aveo? Total product neglect.
And the new Corolla and Yaris? Also cars that aren’t really worth coveting, either. More like driving appliances.
Nov 16th, 2008 (1:53 am)WarrenPeace – to suggest it’s inevitable to allow the almighty profit motive to allow you and so many others to lose out to maximize profit is untrue. It’s a choice a country can make. It doesn’t have to happen. Read the fine print on all our free trade deals over the past eight years in particular, and before to a lesser extent. How did we just recently sign a car trade deal whereby China is allowed to impose twenty five percent/25% tarrifs on American made cars, while America signed on to allow a maximum two and a half/2.5% tariff on anything Chinese made shipped here!!!??? This outgoing administration signed a horde of these deals and at great long-term devastation to our way of life and standard of living. They proudly signed and bragged about these trade deals. Now, those in CEO quarters do well from these. They don’t seem to lose no matter the cost to the rest of us. Yet the point remains, how can we possibly win this war on wages, trade, innovation (which if invented is shipped over as well) or by any means, with our own politicians doing everything in their very mighty power when they had control of all regions of American electorate power to make America lose. As Alan Greenspan, one of the truest bluest of the R party said, “they (Republicans) deserved to lose.”
Thank God almighty for elections. At least we have another chance at new faces. Clearly, from all articles posted here and in the news, the new powers that be are positioning to try something new – protect American interests rather than foreign interests. Count me in with the Democrats over the failures of the Grand Old Party which I was once a member. I’ve learned my painful lesson. Now lets give them a try.
And WarrenPeace, I had severe asthma too. Hanging on everyday trying to do the physically demanding work and go through the high stress of the military is tough and understandable. Almost didn’t make it. Many of my friends didn’t either. Only 6% who come in make it all the way to the end. Very tough to do with much going against long-term military service.
Nov 16th, 2008 (10:26 am)On my way from southwestern Virginia to Mississippi a couple weeks ago I saw two huge auto plants; Kia (under construction) and Hyundai. Is it not ironic, some fellow travelers remarked, that American manufacturers are going broke and Korean manufacturers are building plants in the South? Well, says one of us, do you think our government and courts would let GM, Ford or Chrysler abandon their existing plants and their union employees to get a more advantageous and competitive labor resource? …not very likely. So to weakly paraphrase old Abe, ” Let one hold him by the hind leg while the other skins.” Our government is the problem. No amount of government money (which it doesn’t have) is going to solve fundamental economic inequities.
GM should go into bankruptcy; dump all the ballast overboard; move to the south and rebirth itself as several entities, one being the Volt division. We would welcome you here, welcome to America.
Nov 16th, 2008 (12:51 pm)It amazes me how we can spend hundreds of billions of dollars on war and hesitate to lend money to automakers when their failure will result in millions of lost jobs for the U.S. I am originally from Michigan and live in San Diego now. However, my entire family lives in Michigan. Many of my relatives receive pensions from General Motors as well as health benefits. GM cars have improved in terms of mileage and styling. They will come back. People should really research the GM line before they remark on the issue. The gas mileage on the cars has improved and will continue to improve. It is true that they could stand to get rid of some gas guzzling models; particularly in the GMC line. However, the Malibu has nice styling and many models of their cars get over 30 mpg. The Saturn has a few nice vehicles that are starting to sell as is the case for the Pontiac G6 and G8. There are a couple more vehicles that will be big sellers; the Volt and possibly the upcoming Camaro. It seems that we are OK with giving billions of dollars in foreign aid, offering up free trade at the expense of American jobs, allow price fixing by the oil companies, fail to intently pursue the pervasiveness of corruption, and then deny assistance to our fellow Americans. Let us remember where the auto industry would be or even if it would have existed without the Big 3. Cough up the money to the auto industry. End the war in Iraq and you’ll be amazed how many billions of dollars we’ll have to pay for these crucial plans.
Nov 16th, 2008 (2:45 pm)#87 – Statik
Matt here. (The spelling nitpicker
I’m really torn about help/bailout vs. C11. It’s an emotional issue for me as someone from Michigan and a GM vendor. (Fortunately, I started diversifying my software business about 8 years ago.) On the other hand, I believe in free markets and having the government picking winners and losers is rarely a goog thing. One thing you have taught me is you have to keep emotions out of this. However, it’s still hard…
One quick question – Do you think GM has a C11 contingency plan in place?
Take care,
Matt
Nov 16th, 2008 (5:40 pm)Put me in charge. GM sure as hell will change and the tax payers will not be ripped off.
Nov 16th, 2008 (6:19 pm)#97 jbfalsaka
Now, imagine the fair tax (regressive tax on the middle-class) were passed. Imagine the 23% sales tax on every home sold. Try to sell your house in that environment. Try to sell much of anything in that environment. That would bring the cost of the volt to roughly $50,000 a pop with the (un)fair tax. The only people who would benefit are the super rich. Why? Because their portion of income subject to such a tax is less than 10% by all accounting used.
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Like you I did not like the FairTax when I first heard about it. As a matter of fact, I hated it. Then I began to study it and eventually became convinced that it is an extraordinary idea that has the potential cure many of Americas most pressing problems.
From your post above it is clear that you do not have a complete understanding of The FairTax.
I don’t feel it is appropriate to attempt to educate you on this blog. I only suggest that, if you care about this country and the middle class as much as your post suggests, please spend some real time with the topic. I suggest starting with The FairTax Book and http://www.fairtax.org.
This non-partisan bill is the most thoroughly researched bill ever introduced to Congress. Once understood, it can be loved by Democrats, Republicans and Independents alike.
I will never bring this topic up again as this is not a forum on The FairTax. It was my mistake in introducing the topic. By apologies to readers of gm-volt.com.
Go Volt!!!!
Nov 16th, 2008 (7:41 pm)I have watched an out of control government for 8 years tell me that if I don’t support a war or whatever position they have taken – that I personally felt was forced upon me and the US citizens – then I am not patriotic. I have personally take offense to this statement because I always thought it was my duty as a citizen to question the decisions of our leaders.
Yet one more time, I again question our leaders and urge them to support one of the LARGEST manufacturing industries in this country and LOAN I said LOAN them the money they need to make the required changes and keep jobs in the USA. If you fail to assist them at this time, then I submit to you that you are not the patriotic representatives you think you are. Since you have it within your power to show us all how patriotic you are please support the auto industry and the country who stands to lose more than money.
Again, I urge your support in LENDING the auto-industry the funds they need to survive or we all will regret your Un-patriotic decision. I can only say that your that votes will be watched very closely.
Thank you
A Patriotic Citizen who has served his country with honor and pride.
David
Nov 16th, 2008 (9:54 pm)In the case of the auto-makers’ bailout, it’s a relief to have a national issue that is so straightforward: American cars tend to break down and fall apart therefore people are not buying them. If GM and Ford don’t want to go out of business, they should start making decent cars. To bail them out would be to reward their terrible manufacturing standards.
Nov 18th, 2008 (8:23 am)Our CEO is Obama. We are shareholders. Write letters, plead, make demands. Our new government, American patriots at last, will do the right thing.
The festering remains of the Bush Administration need to be bulldozed immediately into history, deported to Texas. Country first.
Nov 18th, 2008 (3:30 pm)#119 janosh
Comments like your post serve no purpose.
If someone is an Obama supporter they already believe your point. If not, their minds will not be changed by venom.
Since Obama’s stated goal is to unify America, lets all proceed in that spirit and see how much real progress can be made.
Jun 3rd, 2009 (10:43 pm)No More Bailout Money for GM, they’re just a Black hole that Destroyed Public Transportation in the 1940′s to survive then and because there are not any Eligible Transportation Systems for them to purchase and Scrap they go to the government!
Let them DIE!!!