AND 
Paulson Says Auto Industry Aid Should Not Come From Wall Street Bailout, Congressional Democrats Disagree
For several days, leading congressional democrats have implored Treasury Secretary Paulson and the Bush administration to release funds to the embattled US automakers from the $700 billion Wall Street bailout.
Today, however Paulson went on record as saying that those funds were only intended for the financial industry and that the Bush administration did not support broadening those funds for use by the automakers.
Paulson said “I know that automakers are important to the U.S. economy. We care about our automakers,” but indicated it was his belief that any aid to the automakers should come from the $25 billion in retooling loans already legislated.
He expressed being flexible about changing what those funds might be used for and how quickly they could be released, but also cautioned that any assistance provided “has to lead to long-term viability.”
Automakers have indicated the need for an additional $50 billion beyond the $25 billion already passed into law.
This appears to set the stage for a showdown between lame duck Republicans and Democrats on this issue next week. Rep Barney Frank (D) has since stated he plans on introducing legislation next Wednesday to appropriate $25 billion to the US automakers from the $700 billion TARP package.
Frank said the plan “will be written in a way that we are protected,” and that doesn’t allow the automakers to use the funds “imprudently.”
Source (Detroit Press)
96 Responses to “Paulson Says Auto Industry Aid Should Not Come From Wall Street Bailout, Congressional Democrats Disagree”
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
First
Does it not require a Chapter 11 to reorganize and eliminate the UAW legacy costs? Why pour money down a rate hole before GM seeks protection under the bankruptcy law?
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Noel to Noel:
IYCSANJDSAAA
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
I listened to some of what Paulson said, but could not quite pin down anything helpful. It was a lot of government speak understood only within the confines of the Washington loop.
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
That’s right, the bail out intended to buy up mortgages should be re-routed to shore up credit markets, not re-routed to shore up the auto industry. C’mon Congress, get it straight.
It wouldn’t hurt Congress to get their butts back in town for a week to sort out how much more money needs to be designated, and where it needs to be designated, as it seems these blank checks keep getting spent every which way.
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I hope everyone posting to this forum has written/called their Congressmen and relayed their views on this subject. The posts here aren’t solving the problem. Take action.
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
“Frank said the plan “will be written in a way that we are protected,” and that doesn’t allow the automakers to use the funds “imprudently.””
Kind of like asking the fox to watch the hen house. And just who is Barney Franks to be saying anything about being imprudent or not. He is largely responsible for our current financial mess.
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November 12th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
#5 Reneckl
“I hope everyone posting to this forum has written/called their Congressmen and relayed their views on this subject. The posts here aren’t solving the problem. Take action.”
—————-
Done that already. I wrote that I opposed a bail-out but would support a Chapter 11 guaranteed financing requiring GM to drop all but Chevrolet, Saturn and Cadillac lines. And, of course, trimming the union pension and health plans to a minimum or wholesale dropping of them.
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Excellent N Riley, that gives you the right to comment/complain as this plays out next week. All you other proselytizers … make your words matter … move beyond the forum.
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
#6 N Riley – Barney Frank is largely responsible for our current financial crisis?!? My coffee just shot out my nose from laughing. I guess that would be the ultimate butterfly effect. There is enough blame to go around without stating that the acts of a single US Congressman brought down the world economy. Goodness knows those deregulating Republicans were just victims, yesiree…
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
This bailout talk makes me sick. Two selfish reasons:
1. I have been saving and paying off debts for the last few years. I have been doing everything right. Everyone else wants to be bailed out because they really f$#%&ed up by charging everything to their credit card and getting home loans where they can barely afford the monthly payment. All it took was a slight increase in energy costs to push individuals and companies over the edge where they spent more than they earned. Horrible financial planning…
2. Who is going to bailout my father’s small business if it doesn’t survive this recession? Will anybody offer a 2% interest loan for him? The answers are nobody and no. So, how I interpret that is the larger the company, the smaller the accountability for the company’s incompetence.
Absolute bullsh^t.
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Hendler @#4: They’ve already backed away from the concept of buying mortgages. Paulson announced today that they will not be buying “troubled assets” from banks, but wil continue to provide liquidity to banks and to encourage them to resume normal lending practices. I actually somewhat agree with this apporach: buying up bad assets would have disproportionately rewarded the lenders who were the biggest part of the problem (Aspherical, I hear you, but it took two sides of every loan transaction to tango). That said, if consumers are not confident enough to borrow money, I don’t see how simply encouraging banks to lend will solve the problem.
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
For those of you that red or otherwise heard Henry Paulson’s words & could’nt quite understand what he was saying, allow me to translate:
Basically what Hank Paulson said was “We got ours, screw the rest of you.”
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November 12th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
If GM should re-organize. I still have faith in the Volt. The free market will step up and offer anything a well built Volt will need. I trust GM’s manufacturing ability.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
The Volt is a great concept and could be a great product. If the company that developed it goes under, a smarter company that is run better and doesn’t operate with multi-billion dollar losses will just have to redevelop the concept or purchase the rights to the patents and develop it themselves… In no way shape or form should ANY taxpayer money go towards bailing this or any other company out. Unless you’re all ready to rename this place The U.S.S.A….
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
I don’t want to say I told you so, but I totally did.
———
No way they were going to get the money the easy way through TARP. TARP is already way underfunded, they already have to go back and get the ok to spend the second half.
Dems have to draft up their own plan and take responisbilty for it … shocker.
Almost as shocking as when the Republicans will ask for one of their pet projects to be put through to rubber stamp the auto bailout.
Side note: 25 billion/3 ways is not going to cut it, not by a long shot. That ‘maybe’ (big maybe) gets GM to Jan 20th.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Watch Pelosi, Franks, Dodd and Obama run us into the next Depression.
Every single one of us is looking into the mirror and wondering if this crazy train is ever gonna stop.
The first 25billion bailout was triggered by Big3 auto industry lobbyists schmoozing Congress and lieing to them about the Volt. They lied to us, and they lied to our government.
The Volt is a lie. It’s a five seater proof-of-concept, non-practical $40k commuter car with no practicality-it goes 40 miles then needs a re-charge from the socket. Nothing else. After 40 miles, you’ve bought NOTHING but a 25-30 mpg. car – PERIOD, end of story. Read the defensive article GM posted here in regards to the edmunds.com / InsideLine article about the RE-VOLTING VOLT. Basically, it reiterates what the folks who see past GM’s BS press releases and 2 billion$ ad campaigns tried to shovel us. It is a car that does NOT recharge itself in transit. My Prius is cheaper to drive on a 300 mile run.
Now GM, Chrysler and Ford will suck off Pelosi’s teet – and Obama has to please the far left who got him here. Re-appropriation of the $700billion bailout was a given. Give liberal politicians that kind of cash and they’ll SPEND SPEND SPEND it like our wives at a Macy’s sale.
Bottom line: Make American car companies put their money where their mouths are. Let them go bankrupt, and build cars we need. Not sell us crap on a stick. Toyota said last year GM’s claims of the Volt’s modality are not possible with today’s technology – Bob Lutz vehemently contradicted them, and today, sits behind pages of BS trying to get out of what GM claimed they were doing, and could do.
Recommendation: Buy gold – bury it in your backyard.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
#15 statik said
“Side note: 25 billion/3 ways is not going to cut it, not by a long shot. That ‘maybe’ (big maybe) gets GM to Jan 20th.”
==================================================
Looking over the whole situation, I predict that GM will get to Jan 20th as a functioning corporation no matter what happens between now and then.
In the worst case, GM may have delayed some payments, they may be in technical default on some loans, but they still will be in business. No one is going to push them into bankruptcy if they think they still may be paid, which they will continue to hope for until the Obama administration has been in place at least a month or two.
GM still has too many billions to have spent them all by Jan 20, especially now that they are in “cash conservation” mode. Now no doubt GM will not be “operating normally” . The crunch will have crunched and they will be at or below the $10B threshold, but there still will be money in the bank. They will be in bankruptcy only if they have by then entered into some kind of prepared C11 voluntarily. I don’t think they will do that by then.
And, of course, by the Dems may have bailed them out by Jan 20.
What is happening now is a giant game of political “chicken” . A lot of people in DC are willing to do something, but they know it is going to be very unpopular across the country, so they want someone else to take the blame.
You are good at forecasting. This one is mine.
GM has played their cards pretty skillfully, bringing things to a crisis at this particular moment when the Republicans are lame ducks and the Obama administration is not yet organized. It’s a good moment for some hasty congressional action.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
#16 James
Woohoo!
The Volt has five seats now? Thats pretty sweet.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
#9 Barney Frank is largely responsible for our current financial crisis?!? My coffee just shot out my nose from laughing. I guess that would be the ultimate butterfly effect.
Actually Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and their minions were the primary of the world economy crisis.
As we all know the world market is no longer secured with gold instead it is with trading of debt primarily real estate.
Now because the Dem created CRA (community Reivestment Act) and the further tweaking of the CRA it allowed community organizers like ACORN to force banks to make subprime loans (some banks making up to 50% of their portfolios) in order to expand. Further Dem interference allowed Fannie and Freddie to start guarantee the bad loans enabling the banks to expand without worry. And guess who was trading these loans investors like us and other banks worldwide
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
#10 Aspherical Says:
1. I have been saving and paying off debts for the last few years. I have been doing everything right. Everyone else wants to be bailed out because they really f$#%&ed up by charging everything to their credit card and getting home loans where they can barely afford the monthly payment. All it took was a slight increase in energy costs to push individuals and companies over the edge where they spent more than they earned. Horrible financial planning…
2. Who is going to bailout my father’s small business if it doesn’t survive this recession? Will anybody offer a 2% interest loan for him? The answers are nobody and no. So, how I interpret that is the larger the company, the smaller the accountability for the company’s incompetence.
==================
Thank you for saying this. I have been asking myself and others the same thing. You, your father, myself, and many others here have learned to stand on our own two feet. We have learned to be responsible citizens.
Where the hell is our hand out? No where. Instead we have to give our tax money to the irresponsible ones. I resent that because I bust my hump to make a decent living for my family. But welfare, (corporate or otherwise) is not for the responsible who can stand on their own two feet.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
#16
Why are you including Obama in your statement? He isn’t even president yet, and granted he was in office, but it took a lot more than just him to put us where we are now.
I pay my bills, when everything started to go downhill, I cut back and still payed my bills. I have no credit card debt, just my home. My mortage holder was purchased by the federal govenment on Monday. We have no idea what is going to happen or who holds the note on our home. No company is worth government bailout, even the banks. GM needs to do like the rest of the company do, and file for restructuring and stop paying those millions upon millions of bonuses to corporate big whigs, who do nothing but drive the company in the toilet.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I think we are headed into the next depression caused by the greedy unregulated actions of the wall street weenies. Even within companys the internal regulators were being lied to or kept out of the loop so the stupid bubble could keep expanding. This pot of Paulson’s gold is the last huge Republican raid on the treasury before they are religated to oblivian.
For you government can’t do anything dudes: How come our health care system is ranked 34, we live on the average 3 years less than in France, Germany, Canada and England, but pay twice as much for health care? Free economy! Wake up, this unregulated free market crap with some old fashioned greed is what got us into this mess.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
#17 RB
Looking over the whole situation, I predict that GM will get to Jan 20th no matter what…
—————————
I agree with you 100%. I think the gov’t will find a way to see them through to January.
There is no outrage at bailing out GM yet. They’ll get the first 25 billion rules changed…and another 25 billion on top in all likelyhood.
Now, when they blow through all the money in a blink of an eye and come back with the ‘real number’ they need…that is when we will see the fireworks, especially if the greater economy continues to errode.
—–
I would be shocked to NOT see this first ‘mini-bailout’ go through, I don’t think there is any stumbling blocks…provided the Dems back of free trade with Columbia (or some other random Republican thing on the ‘to-do’ list, if the Columbia thing is too much of a hot issue since it was leaked)
/can’t wait to get my Taster’s Choice coffee at half price…Juan Valdez is going to be one rich coffee bean farmer
Ugly Volt/Obama article (read at your own peril):
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122645159441719325.html
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
I guess I missed the memo that explained why the Volt would only get 25-30 MPG in charge sustaining mode. While it is true that GM’s claim of 50 needed a down hill run with a tail wind, it is quite reasonable to expect about 42 MPG. Similar to the highway performance of a Cruze. The loss of generating electricity, then using the electrical power in the motor should not exceed 10 to 15%.
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November 12th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I find it absolutely amazing that the gm-volt blog, which was focused totally on even the smallest tidbits about the car and rallying the flag of enthusiasm for electric cars, has so completely transformed into a blog about the GM corporate financial situation.
Even more amazing (to me) is how much we have become a political forum, where everyone is wrapped up in giving opinions about possible government actions.
Absolutely I understand why that has happened, and it is fascinating. Although we have transformed across topics, we continue to have a high level and thoughtful discussion (even arguments are thoughtful for the most part) compared to virtually any other blog-type forum. Even so, looking back I find it an amazing transformation.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
#23 statik —> yes, it is the encore that will get the crowd on its feet.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I also believe GM should go Chap 11 (like I have been saying for some time) and the Government loan them the reorg money. I think it is the fairest approach and closest to a free market outcome. If the credit market wasn’t so bad I would not be in favor of the loan.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
James#16 Correction: The VOLT is a FOUR SEATER – at $30-$40,000, (depending on government rebate) which achieves 25-30 mpg. after the 400lb. lithium battery packs deplete. So you go 40 miles on battery – then you have an economy car with a trunk big enough for a golf bag – that won’t haul most families anywhere.
Comparably, you can buy any number of economy cars from any number of manufacturers ( even GM’s “Cruze” or the present Cobalt ) that are far better choices at far less expense.
Who will buy the Volt? Answer: silly people. People who purchase a Volt will be tryiing to further the technology and/or commute to work 20 miles or less. To date, many companies produce electric cars that travel far more than 40 miles for a better price.
I agree with the gentleman who said he hopes the same people writing here are also calling their Congressmen.
Tel. of the Congressional Switchboard: 1-866-340-9281
And please call your state Representatives and Senators.
Don’t sit there in apathy while our elected government squanders our hard-earned livelihoods on bailing out businesses who practice poor business.
Americans Re-VOLT!
Sincerely, James – your FELLOW AMERICAN
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
#24 Van” I guess I missed the memo that explained why the Volt would only get 25-30 MPG in charge sustaining mode.”
===========================================
I don’t think that memo has come out yet.
Mpg of 42 seems like a reasonable estimate assuming a level road at 50 mph and excluding starts and stops. It seems to me that the Volt in ICE mode will be limited by its aerodynamics, which with the attention aero has had should be good.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
#2 noel park IYCSANJDSAAA
===============================
A good general guideline but sometimes exceptions are necessary.
Just between us home folks, why don’t you tell us what you are really thinking?
Really, we know you now and value your perspective. By your consistently thoughtful and responsible comments, you have earned the opportunity to put your thinking forward.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
hi James #16,
“The Volt is a lie. It’s a five seater proof-of-concept, non-practical $40k commuter car with no practicality-it goes 40 miles then needs a re-charge from the socket. Nothing else. After 40 miles, you’ve bought NOTHING but a 25-30 mpg. car”
__________________________________
I think you’ve come to the wrong place to downplay the appeal of the Volt. If you would rather drive a 90 hp mini pain box from Japan then you may. True, the Volt cost a little more than the Prius. But it is worth it in many ways. See prior threads for more information.
=D~ NRCLNS
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
(Dow Jones)–General Motors Corp. (GM) hopes to mobilize a pool of more than half a million employees, retirees and auto dealers into a grass-roots campaign for a federal bailout of the U.S. auto industry.
The auto maker on Wednesday, in separate video broadcasts, urged dealers and employees to mail, email or call their federal lawmakers and urge them to support an aid package aimed at helping Detroit’s Big Three survive a downturn threatening the survival of the domestic auto makers.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
#31 Dave K — Nice comment. Accurate, too.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
US government, If there’s anything left of the 700 billion, put it back into the treasury and get out bailout business
GM, Ford and Chrysler, have you ever heard of downsizing?
STOP THE MADDNESS
Call your sen. rep. get them to stop all the bailouts
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
NEVER MIND SAVING THE VOLT, SAVE THE COUNTRY FIRST!!!
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
It may be fun to talk about here, but there is not a damn thing we can do but watch as the elisits in gov’t sell us into generations of debt servatude and steal our rights by ignoring the Constitution.
Say bye bye to the American dream. The fed crashed the party, spiked the punch and made off with our girlfriends.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
#20 Rashiid Amul
“Thank you for saying this. I have been asking myself and others the same thing. You, your father, myself, and many others here have learned to stand on our own two feet. We have learned to be responsible citizens.”
Thank you. We just have to keep doing what we are doing, huh? I typically don’t post on political or financial topics, but this bailout has been a sore subject for me lately. I need a beer. Anybody want to join me?
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Forgive me if this has been covered in another topic. I haven’t seen a lot of press given to what subsidies we have already provided to foreign automakers to establish assembly plants in the US. If I recall, we have been rushing to provide incentives and tax breaks going back to the VW plant in Westmoreland, Pennsylvania!
Our own government (local, state and national) has had a hand in establishing this foreign competition and now when our domestic manufacurers are on the ropes….we give them nothing.
As I stated in earlier posts, I am NOT in favor of just throwing cash at the big 3….I don’t see that as solving anything. But to let them die without taking this decades long imbalance of treatment is not correct policy.
I may be completely off base here. Someone else on the forum may have concrete data that would dispute my claims. If so, I would immediately stand corrected, as this post is pure conjecture on my part.
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Why hasn’t GM fired enough people or shut down enough programs to maintain their business???
To me, it sounds stupid how they’re falling billions of dollars short each MONTH and expect that in 1-2 years when the Volt is released that they will still be alive!! Even if they ARE alive, GM doesn’t expect to sell more than 100K volts in the first year, correct?
100,000*$10,000 (number of Volts sold * optimistic profit per sale). That only adds up to $1B. $1B over the course of a YEAR isn’t going to save GM unless they reduce their expenditures (assuming their sales don’t make a dramatic increase, which no one expects).
Someone please help me here!! I don’t understand what GM is thinking… the numbers don’t add up at all!!
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
hi Tony Gray #38,
“…when our domestic manufacturers are on the ropes….we give them nothing”
_________________________________
We just gave them $25 billion in tax credits to help sell efficient cars.
They are now asking for ANOTHER $25 billion BEFORE the first tax credit has been taken. All they need to do is get efficient cars to the market. The money is approved and waiting to be used by the Big 3.
This tax credit system has been set up this way to avoid tax payer money being tossed at Hummers and Orlandos. Nor to “blank check” GM in buying more interest in China based car businesses.
There is reason in this system. Just as there is reason in the Constitution Of The United States.
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
DaveK #40.
I stand corrected on the “nothing” comment I made. I suppose I was looking more to assisting their short term credit problems to get them to the point where their restructuring could make an impact.
Another poster mentioned this perfect storm that is crushing GM particularly. The high gas prices, the credit crunch and folks scared to spend money because they think they may need it.
The gas prices have stabilized, but I think people are obviously aware of the quick ramp up that happened this year and are wary of returning to low mileage vehicles. However, the problem of crushing fuel prices is alleviated, at least temporarily.
I thought the 700B government bailout was specifically designed to free up credit…but I suppose this hasn’t happened.
The last problem is tougher to fix. Many people, me included, are taking a hard look at all my purchases, even though there are some great bargains out there. I CAN tell you if I needed a new truck (my 05 Silverado just turned 50K), I would jump on the incentives now.
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
hi Zach #39,
“I don’t understand what GM is thinking… the numbers don’t add up at all!!”
________________________
Ever play poker?
If GM can cry “the sky is falling” enough, they may get what Paulson was able to get.
If three years ago GM had announced, “I want a bail out now”, we would have looked at them like they were nuts. But, now things have changed. The government wallet (tax coffer) has been opened by Paulson pushing his do-or-die talk to Congress.
GM asking for $25 billion (which we gave to them) and then $25 billion more doesn’t seem to be so hard to imagine.
Come on GM, just make the efficient cars and claim your first $25 billion. This is our current offer and I hope our final offer. The sooner the Volt is available, the sooner your first $25 billion is available.
This goes for you too Ford. Where’s that sleek EREV? You can do it.
I emailed my representative and asked for all bail outs to stop.
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
The reason GM’s management wants a bailout instead of bankruptcy – GM’s management would lose control over spending decisions. AIG showed us how well no-strings bailouts work – “Hey, should we party, I mean have our AIG business conference, in Burmuda, Hawaii, or the Bahama’s?”
Right here on GM-Volt . com, that good ol boy Dick, I mean Rick, Wagoner had this to say about losing his control over GM:
“I don’t think it’d be a very smart move. I think our job is to make sure we have the best management team to run GM. It’s not clear to me what purpose would be served.” The guy who ran GM into the ground, saying he should be running things – Priceless ! It’s like a kid who kills both of his parents asking the court for mercy because he is now an orphan. What a putz !
What we need here is some tough love. GM gets its money, but in return:
1) All “golden parachute” contracts are null and void. If Rick is so optimistic about GM, he should be willing to “go down with the ship” if he is wrong.
2) No travel for employee or management conferences. You would be surprised how well teleconferencing works, and no one has to go anywhere. Rick can go to Hawaii again AFTER GM is back in the black again.
3) All management pay (above $250,00, tip of the hat to Obama) will be cut 50 percent, then FROZEN until GM returns to profitability.
4) All GM spending will be audited by an independent accounting firm, and reported to Congress on a yearly basis. If GM management breaks the above rules, or fails to increase GM’s market share, the government can remove any or all of GM management, and replace them with new management (from Japan, perhaps?)
5) Any other “poison pills” the posters here at GM-Volt . com can think of, so GM management can’t get away with wasting tax payer money. I believe the first rule alone is enough to keep GM from accepting a bailout, but I could be wrong. Make the bailout so hard to swallow, that GM management would rather go bankrupt.
GM’s exec’s are used to the lifestyle of the rich and famous – their nightmare is bankruptcy court. The government needs to make their bailout plan even more unattractive than bankruptcy. Rick Wagoner wants his control, his power, but he needs your money to maintain it. I suggest you DON’T let him have your money – irresponsibility should never be rewarded. Call your Congressman or woman, and say it loud and proud – “Don’t give GM one cent of MY money without strict management control – We don’t need another AIG”.
Oh, and have a nice day !
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
No preconditions zilch, nada, zippo, GM or anyone else gets any money, they need to downsize get rid of the unions, get rid of the Hummer, etc, etc, start building cars that get high fuel miles and no bailouts,
The bailout or loan whatever, is a bridge to nowhere, its to get them by until things get better, so when are things going to get better, when the cows come home!!!
When things get better we won’t need gas guzzlers
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
James said:
The Volt is a lie. It’s a five seater proof-of-concept, non-practical $40k commuter car with no practicality-it goes 40 miles then needs a re-charge from the socket. Nothing else. After 40 miles, you’ve bought NOTHING but a 25-30 mpg. car – PERIOD, end of story. Read the defensive article GM posted here in regards to the edmunds.com / InsideLine article about the RE-VOLTING VOLT. Basically, it reiterates what the folks who see past GM’s BS press releases and 2 billion$ ad campaigns tried to shovel us. It is a car that does NOT recharge itself in transit. My Prius is cheaper to drive on a 300 mile run.
What??? Half of the stuff you said is made up and the other half demonstrates that you fundamentally do not understand the Volt. Let me help you.
1) The Volt is actually a 4-seater, not a 5-seater.
2) The Volt does not have a price yet, so I don’t know where you got the $40k from. I could just as easily claim that the Volt will cost <$30k ($37k w/ $7,500 tax rebate). Basically, your just making stuff up to advance your agenda.
3) Why do you say it’s a commuter car? It should be comparable in size to your Prius and it has an unlimited range w/ the ICE.
4) You said that the Volt will get 25-30 mpg. Really? I’ve heard nothing of the sort. Maybe it will, but I doubt it. Again, your just making stuff up.
5) You say that “it is a car that does NOT recharge itself in transit.” This where you obviously have a problem understanding the value of a plugin. The fact that it does not recharge itself in transit is a good thing. If it did that, there would be no reason to plug it in–it would always be fully charged. I want to charge the battery from a wall socket, not the ICE.
6) I don’t know if your Prius will be chaper to drive on a 300 mile run or not–yet again, you are just making stuff up. Even if your Prius does end up being cheaper under that scenario, so what? Most people don’t go on 300 mile trips very often. Most people go on 40 mile trips or shorter. One thing that we can be sure of is that the Volt will be cheaper to run than your Prius for the vast majority of trips.
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Everybody keeps asking why they just dont stop working and lay off/fire people or close more planst and projects except the Volt or other more viable products. Here’s why. It’s just like the housing market. You will not get any assistance if you are not in deep chit. Folks like myself who did refinance before the adjustment and now have a stable mortgage get screwed and bent over. Where those who didn’t do the right thing and are now knee deep in the crap will get assistance. In the housing mortgage meltdown, they are going to allow 60 more days before foreclosing a hous and other are lobying for 30 additional. This allowas deadbeats to still live in the house and not make payments for 3 more months.
So GM is doing the same thing. get deeper in the chit so it appears they need the most help.
Remember, they are still getting the $50billion loan and “The legislation will seek to amend the $700 billion Wall Street bailout plan to include automakers”.
Yeah. That about covers it.
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Just emailed two Senators with this simple request:
No bail outs for anyone please. No bail outs for the auto industry.
thank you
I’m going to the gym now.
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
#30 RB:
Thanks for your kind words. As you know, I have had a lot to say here over the months, and have never been too shy to offer an opinion. I am just so frustrated and upset by the current situation that I just feel that I have said all that I have to say, and am starting to repeat myself. I don’t think that adds any value, so I am just trying not to do so.
1. I am a Chevrolet enthusiast and collector. I honor the rich history of Chevrolet, and would be devastated to see this important icon of US history disappear.
2. I operate a small business and no one is coming to bail me out.
3. I feel that large American corporations are operated mainly for the benefit of executives (employees after all). The spectacle of “senior” GM “executives” getting paid millions of dollars to run the corporation into the ground revolts me.
4. I agree that throwing billions of dollars into the present dysfunctional GM organization is almost certainly a waste.
#1 motivates me to wish that someone would save GM.
#2, #3 and #4 make me bitterly resentful of the idea of a “bailout”.
So I am totally confilcted, and tend to veer back and forth from pole to pole depending on the day’s news. I don’t find that to be productive or illuminating, so I am trying my best to keep it to a minimum.
Maybe I can add #5.
Jean-Charles Jacquemin has often commented on the sort of global community which has developed around GM-Volt.com. I agree with him that this is a wonderful example of the potential of the internet to link people at a grass roots level, and thus to cut through the “1984″ish political rhetoric and lies which have separated us for so long. Knowledge is power, and “Power To The People”
As I have said before, if GM is saved, Lyle and you loyal bloggers will have played a very important role, IMHO. If not, at least we can say that we were in the game and took our best shot.
So every good wish to each and every one of you. May you survive these troubled and frightening times intact, and prosper in the better days to come.
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Casey @ 44, the loan or whatever is a bridge to nowhere.
Best assessment I have seen, thanks.
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Paulson wants every penny going to his WallStreet crooks. That’s why he wants the auto industrty to get their own money!
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
This reminds of the Warner Bros cartoon of Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny, the Genie and the Cave.
Mine mine……it’s all mine!
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
A very interesting conversation with Shai Agassi and Tim O’Reilly about “Better Place”. An interesting concept on the electric car.
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/a-conversation-with-shai-agass.html
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
#42 Dave K & #46 CaptJackSparrow:
My understanding is that what has been authorized so far is $25 billion in loans to retool for high mileage cars. That $25 billion is to be divided up among GM, Ford, Chrysler and possibly unspecified others. Isn’t that so? Does someone else have any actual information otherwise? How it gets divided up, i have no idea. In any case, GM’s share is going to be substantially less than the full $25 billion.
I’m not sure what, if any, controls will force them to use the money for the stated purpose. Nothing seems to require Mr. Paulson to use the $700 billion honey pot he controls for the originally stated purpose. Even if GM is able to divert its share into generalized “bailout” uses, it’s not going to get them very far under the current paradigm.
#50 Keith:
Yeah, it looks a lot like they are looting the treasury on their way out of town, doesn’t it? Or on their way out of the country.
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
#51 CaptJackSparrow:
No s**t, Sherlock!
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Casey, #34
This probably does not need saying, but “put any of the $700 Billion left back to the Treasury”; of course the $700 Billion never existed. It is borrowed in the US Treasury Bonds, Notes and Bills market as the money is spent. The Treasury borrows nearly every day to keep the cash coming.
Just one indication of how serious this mess is: the US Government is borrowing nearly $1 Trillion dollars at interest rates of anywhere from 3 1/2% to as little as 1/8 of 1%. This last figure, which represents, basically, free money to Uncle Sam is to the tune of over $60 Billion PER WEEK. The fact that investors around the world are willing to lend money for free just to keep the principle safe is a huge indicator of the fact that the world is circling the toilet right now.
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November 12th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
I agree that people put all the faith on the Volt, but allowing GM to survive just because of a concept car does not seem to be reasonable. If the Volt comes at >$35K, which likely will, I can’t see the idea of helping GM or people in the medium term. It is not feasible. In addition, I already said that Lithium costs would likely increase since that is not a resource you find on your backyard. Yes, it may be lots of Lithium available, but resources are found on specific places (such as South America). Expect speculation there unless people find a better way to produce batteries, what may not come on time to save GM.
The truth is that GM has produced very poor cars. My Audi A4, which delivers 33mpg on highway flying with 255HP, was damaged the other day in accident, then the insurance company gave me a new Malibu as a rental car; what a garbage. And that is considered one of the best GM cars?
GM, Ford and Chrysler must go. Look at PT cruiser, 300, Ford Taurus: I saw the last model of the Ford Taurus and that looked like a flying tomb. I am sorry to say, but these three did not get it. I do not believe that if you put billions of dollars on their hands they will start producing better cars.
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
hi Noel #53,
No, the $25 billion is for any American manufacturer that can meet the requirement to get it. This means it ALL goes to GM if they can get the Volt out.
And about fairness….
If the U.S. government told Toyota that they would be willing to pay a $7500 rebate check to all who buy a Prius, this game would be over. Toyota would price the Prius at $26,500, make a huge profit, and the buyer would need to pay just $19,000 for a new 45 mpg Prius.
NO BODY would buy any other small car…it’s game over folks!
Yet GM says, “We don’t want to rush the Volt”.
Don’t come to me asking for money, I don’t got it bro.
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
The Grump:
“3) All management pay (above $250,00, tip of the hat to Obama) will be cut 50 percent, then FROZEN until GM returns to profitability.”
==============================
Boy, I sure would want to be making $249,999.99, then the guy making $250,000 now makes $125,000. I knew it paid to be a slacker and not get the extra penny raise last year….
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
hee hee (smirk)
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Bush_signs_bailout.jpg
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/bush-bailout-wide.jpg
Stop the bail outs.
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
#48 noel park
Thanks for the comments. I’ll give you my take on 1 to 5, in reverse order.
#5 — JCJ is right on, as usual. We are a real global community.
#4 — I agree, sadly.
#3 — The corporations I know well are mixed. Some have the awful leadership you describe. Others, though, are really well managed. Some change from good to bad and back to good (Home Depot, for example.) To me there is too much variation to think of them all as one way.
#2 — I once ran a small business. Things worked out well for me, in that I had a chance to pass it on to other leadership at a good moment. I understand the challenges. No one ever offered us a bailout
#1 — I’m not a Chevy collector, but I have owned several and enjoyed every one, partly because special people rode with me in each one.
Like you I am exceedingly frustrated with a lot of what’s developed, lately especially, though I’ll have to say it has been an exciting story. We’ll just see what happens next.
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Paulsen has been wrong on just about everything in the past 6 months. I have no faith in the government being able to do anything right anymore.
I think its time to screw the UAW and get on with making the Volt. If the union workers don’t want to make cars hire someone that will. I’m not in favor of this bailout because its getting too close to Canada’s way of dealing with problems, rip off the tax payer. Paulsen does have a good point that these car companies must show some sense of long term viability before they get a nickel.
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
hi frank D #5,
Thanks for the link to: Shai Agassi on Electric Cars
http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/11/a-conversation-with-shai-agass.html
Makes me feel a lot better about the current confusion. We’ll get to driving electric cars. The world markets will rebound and return to normalcy.
Hey, I worked the last 12 days straight and am getting O.T. for it. My friends and coworkers are not suffering. My family will take our usual winter vacation trip this year. And a new administration will be in by the end of January.
We now need GM (or Ford) to stop whining and get the wheels of the Volt on the road. I’ll pay cash for one.
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
#61 Ed M said, “If the union workers don’t want to make cars hire someone that will. I’m not in favor of this bailout because its getting too close to Canada’s way of dealing with problems, rip off the tax payer”
———–
Hey now!
———————————————————————-
#61 Ed M said, “Paulsen has been wrong on just about everything in the past 6 months. I have no faith in the government being able to do anything right anymore”
———-
Well, ‘most’ people have been wrong on just about everything this year…all the way down this year. GM is a buy at what price again?
Actually, it is pretty hard to spot even one person who got it right. I watch alot of CNBC (it is my drug of choice), and I can’t think of even one person who called this thing properly. I’ve been doing a lot of pointless shouting in frustration at my TV this past year.
It is amazing to me when all the signs are there, blazing in people’s faces…I’m not just talking about average Joe either, people who are PAID to know things and they refuse to believe that this could actually be happening.
The same incompetance is still happening. Just ask anyone what their economic outlook is for 2009, or watch a little CNBC. They just keep ‘calling’ bottoms that are 5-10% below current values. Then it drops through that…and they do it again.
A lot of times because people have a specific interest in things improving, they refuse to accept that opposite may be true, and it clouds their judgement. Wagoner’s over ambitious forecasts of the ‘automotive economy’ the past 3 years would be a good example.
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November 12th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Where the hell are the oil companies? They could write a check big enough to save the Big 3 and not even have to blink. They know that the VOLT and other hybrid electrics will not be made in significant enough numbers to hurt them. They should be pitching in to solve this problem. If the house of cards falls, and millions are out of work, then those millions won’t need to buy gas. Don’t they get that?!
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November 12th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
hi statik #63,
You are right. If the forecasts and release dates GM had made this last two years were actually happening, then most of our predictions made here would be correct.
Last month Paulson said, “We will throw everything we have at the problem, including the kitchen sink”.
He was betting that the public would react as if he were “fixing something”. The public of 2008 is a bit more hip than the public of 2000. Call it our change in mind set through negative reinforcement.
__________________________________
A Saudi doctor (an older gentleman) was recently sentenced to 1500 lashes for reportedly giving a Saudi Princess “the wrong medication”.
Sound extreme? Think he will get the point after the first 2 or 3 hundred lashes?
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
You know I do not care any more! Let them all go down. I have never made a salary of $4 million. Why should I care about them. I think they should go bankrupt then see if they can rebuild from the ground up. The people who make the big money are the ones that drove us into this mess. Let them pay the taxes to get us out of this mess. Lets face it us that made $30,000 to $40,000 never could have made the decisions that got us here. The ones making the millions are the ones that got us here. Let them pay for it for a change. Put a big hefty tax on them to get us out of this mess. JMHO
Take Care
Arch
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November 12th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
hi Gordon #64,
“They could write a check big enough to save the Big 3 and not even have to blink.”
________________________________
Really think Detroit should make a deal with the devil? Better to die hungry with a chance at heaven. Then to ride a golden railed ship into hell.
=D~
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November 12th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
The only reason GM needs a handout is because of the unions and the obligations that must, under contract, be fulfilled.
If a normal, non-union company is hit with 50% lower sales they cut expenses and output to match the new environment. The market adapts and moves forward.
However, GM is unable to cut workers! They call it idling workers. They don’t work but must still be paid! Got to love how people think we are not a socialists. We are!
GM’s hands are tied and we the taxpayer must pay these social obligations. Unfortunately, they are not distributed fairly among the population. These obligations amount to a pay and compensation package that averages around $75 per hour for a guy that drives in lug nuts! Does this boil your blood a bit?
Thus, if you like this system vote yes for a bailout. If you don’t like this system and want to see a different organization emerge then vote no for a bailout.
I say free up GM’s hands so they can get to a structure that works. If we want to talk about a social system to take care of the middle class then let’s do it right and do it in a fair way. One that keeps people motivated to work and that keeps our corporations competitive in the global marketplace.
How can we expect GM to compete with nations that have universal healthcare? Their costs are distributed among all of the population.
These times are great for massive restructuring of not only our auto industry but of our country. Let’s let the constitution be our guide. Let’s follow simple principles like working to make every U.S. citizen feel safe, healthy, and motivated to put forth their best efforts to compete in the global market place.
How do you do this?
1) Workers should not worry about their retirement funds not following them to any job they do. This is why the 401K and IRA plans are so great. Expand on this excellent system. Other countries should follow this. Just as we should use their healthcare systems as a guide to fix ours.
2) Workers should not worry about their health and the health of their families. They should not have to worry about pre-existing conditions. They should be motivated to stay healthy and work towards healthy living. I truly think that a health system that is based on profits cannot achieve this simple principle. Health is more important than public safety. Health is the most important thing to a person’s happiness. How can we tie profits to it? If you compare the rest of the developed counties out there you can see just how screwed up our system is. Yes, it makes a lot of money (average health care cost per person in the U.S. is more than twice that of countries that have universal health care) but it drives the wrong message. Our current system does not work. It’s a failed concept. Fear is not the best way to motivate people. Messing with someone’s health causes them the greatest fear. Period. As for me personally, take away the police and my land before you take away the health of my family. I can always use a machine gun for personal protection. I am helpless watching my family suffer an illness that is just a payment away from being solved. What the heck are we thinking? How can rational people justify this?
3) Citizens should feel they are equal in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of opportunity. Obama lifted the hopes of many. I think this will have more positive effect than any government program. It’s a simple concept where we want to get maximum utilization of our national resources. A mind is the most powerful and valuable resource. Our country has so much hate, racism, division, etc. that it’s hard for people to think of others as equals. Even though it makes us weaker when competing against other nations that don’t have this problem. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy of failure. Just think of every American brain as a computer that is not being used properly. It needs a good computer room, electricity, good programming, and a good application to work on. Maybe a little dissociation will help people understand the business potential here. If all of our brains are utilized we all will have higher standards of living. So simple yet so hard to change. Now is a good time to change. It’s a perfect time to change. A perfect storm of change.
Once we have these very basic things taken care of our capitalistic systems will work much better. A cold, hungry and sick child will not learn. A depressed, uneducated, discriminated against and fearful citizen will not put forth a good effort in any job that is provided. So simple yet so hard to admit.
I vote no to a bailout of GM. Although it will cause massive short-term disruption it will get us moving in the right direction. We will never have a clean slate to work with but throwing money at a failed structure is a step in the wrong direction. If massive restructuring of our auto industry is not undertaken I don’t see how it can compete in the new global marketplace. What competitive advantages does it have in it’s current form?
Besides, going into bankruptcy is not as bad as it sounds. Many claim that they don’t want socialism and government involvement. Little do they know that the bankruptcy process is just another socialistic system. Just wipe out your dept and keep operating? Does this happen in the developing world? If you don’t pay your debts there you will be hurt or worse! At the very least financially ruined. In our nice system you are allowed to simply wipe out all dept, thank you very much, and are allowed time to aggressively restructure while receiving funding from the government (do you really think the government is not going to help out during the bankruptcy period?).
The Airlines did it and came out stronger. So can the auto industry. All of us around the world already know that our auto industry is a complete failure. It’s time to fess up… “Hi, My name is The Big 3 and I’m a financial failure.” Now that we admit that we have a problem we can get to work on how to fix it. I think our auto industry can once again be the shining example to the world. We have what it takes to be a leader in the electrification of the automobile that other modes of transportation. We can fix the world’s problems and clean up the planet. Now that would be vindication.
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November 12th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
#63 Statik
Yes it’s been one of those Black Swan years! I’ve taken quite a pasting. I’ve never seen everything hit the mat like this. Other than some pretty nifty US bonds I don’t think I’ve got an asset class that has gone anywhere but down.
However I think at this point it’s overdone and I’ve started buying, in part because it seems overdone and in part because if the curve is concave upwards it matters little if you buy on the way down or the way up. But to your point about CNBC, that doesn’t of course mean things will turn around shortly. You can easily go broke waiting for the market to become rational. Or, as Barton Biggs once famously said, the fools may be dancing but the bigger fools are watching. No one has a crystal ball.
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November 12th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
#68 texax – ” vote no to a bailout of GM. Although it will cause massive short-term disruption”
I’d agree it will cause massive short term disruptions. That’s a very bad thing for, as Keynes has pointed out, things do get sorted in the long run but in the long run we’re all dead.
I’d also argue it will gut the remainder of our manufacturing capacity. That is not a good thing for either the medium or long term.
My view on all this may be shaped by my experience with start ups. Start ups are a hard row to hoe, and many which might be viable in the long term get snuffed out before their time because of short term financial problems. GM and Ford seem viable to me, and the financial problems in the credit markets are more or less killing the auto industry because there simply isn’t any financing available for car loans. As a consequence I’m OK with the bailout though it won’t help me directly at all.
In summary, while I agree with your points I think you’re missing the big picture and underestimating the damage which will be sustained if there isn’t a bailout. There are simply too many jobs at risk here, and I’m talking about all those business which will in turn go belly up if the auto makers shut down.
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November 12th, 2008 at 11:15 pm
24. Van and 29. RB,
25-30 does seem low. But the Cruze will be lucky to get 40MPG, and even the 10-15% lower Van stated would result in 34-36MPG, which is nothing to write home about when cars 1/3 of the price can do that.
The more interesting point is that GM made the 50MPG claim and hasn’t corrected it. They twist, lie, and exaggerate most other things so I have reason to ASSume they aren’t doing so now. But it should make anyone who still believes GM is being honest question a lot of other things they have claimed.
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November 12th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Paulson is right on the money when he stated that any aid should lead to auto industry long term viabilty, not simply staving off bankruptcy for another year or so. THAT’s the problem with the Dem’s plans – it has no other goal than to avoid looking
foolish by stipulating that the money won’t be used for executive bonuses. That will not in any way protect the taxpayer’s money – the problem is labor costs, something that, incredibly, no one is even mentioning. As long as those folks keep avoiding a solution in order to avoid alienating the UAW which got them elected, the taxpayer funds are as good as down the drain. Don’t you just love the way the Dems go about solving problems?
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November 12th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
#69 DonC
Statik,
Yes it’s been one of those Black Swan years! I’ve taken quite a pasting. I’ve never seen everything hit the mat like this. Other than some pretty nifty US bonds I don’t think I’ve got an asset class that has gone anywhere but down.
However I think at this point it’s overdone and I’ve started buying, in part because it seems overdone and in part because if the curve is concave upwards it matters little if you buy on the way down or the way up. But to your point about CNBC, that doesn’t of course mean things will turn around shortly. You can easily go broke waiting for the market to become rational. Or, as Barton Biggs once famously said, the fools may be dancing but the bigger fools are watching. No one has a crystal ball.
————
Well, I guess if everyone just keeps saying it is going to bottom, and the market is going to come back…they will be proven right at some point.
I personally, have a few check points for when I think we are close to levelling out, and when I will get back in…I’ll throw one at you for fun:
“Joe” wants a mortgage, he has good credit, and can put 5% down on a house, why would a bank loan him any money regardless of his credit if the housing market is dropping by 10%? How can the banking sector and the overall economy recover, regardless of bailouts, when 30% of houses in America sold for a loss this quarter and the year over year numbers are at -9.7%?
Today’s source on those numbers (zillow)
http://www.cnbc.com/id/27674358
I have a half dozen more ‘basic principle’ check points just like that. No brainers, if you will. Until the market makes sense to me…I’m on the rail, happy making 4-5%.
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November 12th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
static #63
Some very cogent points bro, nicely put.
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November 12th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
#70 DonC
The problem with the bailout is it will only prolong the agony, its just a bridge to nowhere GM still wont be able to sell cars when the bailout or loan runs out. The problems will still be here, and so will the gas guzzlers that won’t sell
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November 13th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Congress has to bail out GM. Congress (Michigan legislators and the Dems primarily) has forced GM to use overpriced labor for decades while allowing foreign carmakers to have market based wages. The result, trillions in unfunded liabilities (sounds kinda like social security doesn’t it) and retired GM workers whose pensions will go by-by. The impact on people’s lives…terrible. GM, Ford and Chrysler made a deal with the devil (Congress) and the devil (as always) crawfished. Obama and the Dems OWE the UAW and the UAW would rather see the country floating in debt before negotiating a fair market wage scale. So Detroit will get the money. But once they get the money they will produce cars the Dems want you to buy. So if you like cars with style, speed and fun to drive factors…forget it. Yes, the automakers have a lot to answer but it was unwise government mandates that helped make them uncompetitive. Right now GM makes cars that can compete with anyone. It just costs them a lot more to make ‘em.
I was excited about the advent of the Volt. I hope GM does survive. #16 James, I rode in a Prius for 200 miles, felt like three weeks. For those that LIKE cars the Prius is a golf cart. For those worried about the gas in a Volt going bad, Come on people, run the ICE once a month to replace the gas in the tank.
To those that really want to help, buy the Malibu, Aura Green line, anything American for the next two years. WE can save American jobs if it is important to OUR economy. Stop bashing American and help ourselves out of this mess. Go Volt.
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November 13th, 2008 at 12:15 am
#15 Static
Side note: 25 billion/3 ways is not going to cut it, not by a long shot. That ‘maybe’ (big maybe) gets GM to Jan 20th.
_____________________________________________________
Right on. Which is why the gov’t should not invest in these companies. In 2 months the argument will be ….
“We need to invest more money, else we’ll loose our initial 25 billion and look like fools.”
They won’t treat sunk costs as sunk because A) It’s not their money and B) It is their reputation. 10 years later, we’ll still be paying out money while GM talks about how it actually needs spare production capacity, and it’s workers deserve unrealistic benefits.
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November 13th, 2008 at 12:24 am
# 76 Lloyd
I guess I take a different approach. If GM gets billions in subsidies, they can forget any support from me at the dealership. My compassion ended when they TOOK my money, behind my back. I will buy the car that makes the most sense for me, forget where it’s made. Otherwise, this is a one-way masochistic relationship where I pay and they play.
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November 13th, 2008 at 12:37 am
#75 Casey
I do want to point out that UAW and Big 3 signed a landmark agreement that will significantly cut costs beginning in 2010. This will allow the automakers to move down into high mileage cars profitably. So at least one structural change has occurred. Though to your main point, many other changes need to be made and, with gov’t intervention, will probably hang around for a while longer.
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November 13th, 2008 at 1:00 am
This thread has been remarkably good reading tonight, thanks gentlemen.
Lloyd T #76
I agree, run the Volt once a month on gas to change it. But if you have to run the battery all the way down to use gas, you could be awkwardly stranded. I would like to see the Volt have a system where you can run down the gas without running down the battery first.
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November 13th, 2008 at 1:19 am
Hello Dave K #62 just checked back on the site and saw your post. I’m awfully glad there is another person besides myself who sounds optimistic about things! I too enjoy my work and will look forward to a new world come January…i hope the rest of the country will face these problems with optimism and stop the whining and blaming about who got us in this mess…the truth be told, we are all part of it, good and bad. Time to work hard and save for our future. People with vision and who think outside the box will thrive!
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November 13th, 2008 at 1:21 am
#79 Cautious Fan: “UAW and Big 3 signed a landmark agreement that will significantly cut costs beginning in 2010″
Please do tell us more.
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#72 Kenneth “What’s the Frequency” Beuchert:
“Air, n. A nutritious substance supplied by a bountiful Providence for the fattening of the poor.”
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November 13th, 2008 at 1:57 am
To those that really want to help, buy the Malibu, Aura Green line, anything American for the next two years. WE can save American jobs if it is important to OUR economy.
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The Malibu & Aura hybrids offer no smog-related emission improvement and only a minor efficiency improvement. Why support a technology that does so little? Putting pressure on the automaker to use the bailout in the pursuit of vehicles that are actually competitive makes a whole lot more sense.
As for American jobs, consider the big picture. Camry-Hybrid production currently in Kentucky and the upcoming production of Prius in Mississippi will go a long way toward support of Big-3 retooling for good hybrids.
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November 13th, 2008 at 2:06 am
You can tell Toyota PR is spaming this site with comments.
Evey hard working american I know who is a good american supports bailing out our good Auto industry.
Who would not our auto industry is one of the last we have left.
If it goes so does the country.
A.Either people here are stupid.
B. Toyota PR is spamming this site.
C. US citiziens want to become more poor and make the foreign countries richer by buying foreign products.
I am a US owner of a good business. I am going to call my congressman to make sure my money goes towards US industry.
The fools here who dont support the bailout are stuipd anti-amierican foreign car owners who want to destroy gm because they love there toyota camery so much.
I dove a camery and they are a POS.
YES to bailout. America Deserves it!
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November 13th, 2008 at 2:34 am
American people are so so dumb.
I agree.
Who whats gas guzzlers. American did.
we told Detroit to make them
Every American family wanted one.
Second.
American cars are better now than foreign cars.
Third
IF you don’t bail out the auto makers you will destroy a industry that is our last manufacturing this country has.
What do people think by buying Toyota cars it will make this country richer. WRONG.
The only thing green about Toyota is sending American money to japan.
I am for American, for American car companies and I glady support our troups and my money going towards american big 3./
People need to get out of there Camey cars sell them buy a ford or GM ..
Support your country people stop being spoil brats.
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November 13th, 2008 at 2:43 am
Bail out institutions that make no products so no money will not come back into the US.
Force our people to lose skills.
So how are you going to afford that house now. Pushing paper around?
Why are people so against US industry but for there mortgages So greedy
What ever happened patriotism.
I am totaly for US industry and all my money can go towards it.
The anti American Toyota drivers can go to another site and stop posting here.
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November 13th, 2008 at 2:51 am
We all need to remain positive and hope for the best. GM has been making a serious effort the last couple of years with their lineup. Unfortunately they took a HUGE hit with gas prices and now this recession.
I hope the government will do what’s best and get GM back on the track.
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November 13th, 2008 at 3:03 am
IT’S SO SIMPLE!!!
There wouldn’t be any concern about economic collapse due to failure of the Big Three if… drum roll please… people simply bought domestic rather than stuff from the imports.
So many people I know buy imports rather than domestics simply because they are so image conscious and feel that it allows them to climb up one more rung on the social ladder. One such example: My brother’s friend once made a comment in front of me saying, “Who would want to buy a Chev?” This comment is from a Mini Cooper Convertible-driving prick who lives in San Fran and drinks fancy Perrier when he goes to a restaurant. The car wasn’t bought in rebellion to so-called poorly-built domestics… the Mini Cooper is said to be sub-par in that respect. But people love and buy them because they are marketed as the coolest thing on four wheels.
He never used to be this way until he started living the fancy-ass California lifestyle where he admitted to me that the social environment gets you into the habit of spending all your money to appear successful to others.
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November 13th, 2008 at 3:52 am
hi frank billmore #86,
I understand your view. If you check the prior 2 dozen threads you will see much support for GM and brands. GM said they would “transparent”. And that the mind set of Hummers and Envoys has been renewed to an interest in high mpg vehicles.
GM took a $600 million hit last quarter with the Cruze engine factory start up. GM also had labor issues with the UAW striking and stopping production. GM also had issues with the supplier Delphi. Which was supposed to have been resolved with some sort of loan. So all things were looking up.
GM anounced that South American and China sales were looking good. With U.S. sales slowing but not badly due to the “popular” Malibu and Impala models.
Then BAM! Earnings were anounced at something like a $7 billion short fall for the quarter. We all here were stunned. How did this rosey picture suddenly turn totally dark after a fairly good list of news.
You can see where I am headed. It’s a trust issue now.
Q. Does GM need more tax cash for continued production? Or is this a ploy to be able to increase their stake in a China auto manufacturer?
Q. The Cruze was delayed…now it’s not. Are we being played for their gain?
Q. The excitment over the plug-in Vue and the Camaro has been put on hold. Both products are now “delayed 6 more months”.
Others here can list more. I just wanted to give you a history of the site.
=D~
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November 13th, 2008 at 4:23 am
Unbelievable the idiot dumbshit I am a patriot so I buy american bullshit assholes.
Sell your Camery and buy a Ford or GM, …. KISS MY ASS YOU DUMBASS. I don’t like renting cars all the time while the piece of crap FORD is in the shop.
Its you so called patriot assholes that allowed GM and Ford to become second rate car makers. Save the workers…its those same workers that built the crap that breaks down all the time. Screw them.
I will KEEP buying foriegn cars until the DUMB ASS management at GM gives me a car that I want, AND IT FRICKING WORKS.
Ford, in the shop every 2 months.
GM, how many times are you suppose to replace motor mounts before you just say screw it.
Toyota truck, Never….I repeat NEVER in the shop other that normal oil/tune ups AND I SOLD IT FOR MORE THAN I PAID FOR IT.
Toyota Celica, 1 instance in 7 years and they covered the simple cracked exhaust manifold FOR FREEEEEEE. Try that for patriotism at GM or FORD.
Toyota MR2, I didn’t think they could build a more solid car than the Celica, but they did. Not a dam thing went wrong with that car. EVER.
Toyota FJ Crusier, 60,000 miles and i haven’t even given it a tune up yet. Toyota messed up putting the tires on and gave me FREE tires even though I had already put 20,000 miles on them. Your PATRIOTIC Ford let people DIE rather than change flawed tires. Hows that for your patriotic piece of crap management, they would rather see you die than fix a flaw.
GM, FORD and especially CRAPSLER need to be taken out back and thrown under the bus, along with all their useless union workers that could care less about building quality products for patriotic americans. Until you wake up to fact that they could care less about you and only care about their bloated paychecks, they will keep selling you crap products.
Do not bad mouth Toyota for building quality cars, put your frustration where it belongs, the big 3 ripping americans off for so long that they switched to a better product and the big 3 are getting exactly what they deserve.
No I do not work for Toyota, I just believe in not getting ripped off. And I will not buy a Prius golf cart unless it will drive all electric for my commute.
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November 13th, 2008 at 4:48 am
And another thing for the so called patriots.
As hard as I tried to talk her out of it, my mom is a union worker and insisted on buying an american car. She is now upset that she has to keep paying on her Ford for another 2 years because the piece of shit is in the shop all the time. I can assure you she will not be buying another american made car because of Ford and its patriotic union workers that let her down.
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November 13th, 2008 at 6:10 am
Thursday November 13, 2:59 am ET
SINGAPORE (AP) — Oil prices slid to near $55 a barrel Thursday in Asia as more bad economic news from the U.S. heightened fears of a severe global downturn that will pulverize demand for crude.
Light, sweet crude for December delivery was down $1.08 to $55.08 a barrel, after falling to as low as $54.67, in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange by midafternoon in Singapore.
“As the global economy continues to weaken, we’re going to see further downward pressure on oil,” said Stephen Roach, chairman of Morgan Stanley Asia, in Singapore. “I think we’ll certainly challenge the $50 threshold. We could challenge the $40 threshold.”
The crude futures contract overnight fell $3.50 to settle at $56.16, the lowest closing price since January 2007, after the U.S. Energy Department slashed its 2009 oil consumption forecast.
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There you go GM. The dealer lot inventory of heavy vehicles will now sell as pump gas drops to $2 a gallon. Here is the cash you’ve been asking for. I am happy for you and the SUV manufacturing and R&D employees.
=D~
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November 13th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Any goverment takeover that slashes union benefits should slash ALL benefits; that includes the millions and millions that GM pays out annually as benefits to current and former executives. Distribute the pain all across the board.
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November 13th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Unbelievable the idiot dumbshit I am a patriot so I buy american bullshit assholes.
Sell your Camery and buy a Ford or GM, …. KISS MY ASS YOU DUMBASS. I don’t like renting cars all the time while the piece of crap FORD is in the shop.
Its you so called patriot assholes that allowed GM and Ford to become second rate car makers. Save the workers…its those same workers that built the crap that breaks down all the time. Screw them.
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This is to GMSAJOKE
My wife and I have owned FORD vehicles for over 15 years. Currently we drive an 8 year old truck and 5 year old SUV. We have never had problems and they only been in the shop for required maintenance. In fact some of my friends have had their Toyotas (which were lot newer than mine) in the shop for engine problems and then complained on how much it costs them to fix.
Sorry to put this in a GM VOLT blog site, but I refuse to let some smug Toyota Rules American insult the quality of American Cars. I am interested in the future of American Cars and in this product. I only wish that Ford had the drive to push for this as well or team up and maybe get this plug-in concept on the road faster.
And likewise, I am against the Bailout for the BIG 3. Just by giving them money, it won’t change their business practice. The Big 3 (and its Unions) need to restructure or go the way of the Horse and buggy.
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November 13th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Its a superiority thing.
They say guys with small drive large cars.
Guys with small intelligence buy foreign cars to show they can’t make a decision based on quality.
They just buy foreign to be in style with the Jones.
I saw a person buy a new American car and I though wow someone does care. It was the new Chevy Malibu and it looked great.
If you ask the same ding dong if they bought an apple Ipod or and apple computer its in style.
American engineers designed that apple and it’s an American company. Opps should not have said that it might make people return there ipods.
Its time American people start having some pride!!
Support GM,Ford
Support our new president.
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November 14th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
“”GM, FORD and especially CRAPSLER need to be taken out back and thrown under the bus, along with all their useless union workers that could care less about building quality products for patriotic americans. Until you wake up to fact that they could care less about you and only care about their bloated paychecks, they will keep selling you crap products.
Do not bad mouth Toyota for building quality cars, put your frustration where it belongs, the big 3 ripping americans off for so long that they switched to a better product and the big 3 are getting exactly what they deserve.”"”
Youre fing retarded. Thats all I have to say… My dad has worked 31 years for the UAW and he is a hardworking man… and trust me he is not over paid… and whoever said they get paid 76 dollars an hour for screwing in a lug nut its also retarded… You would not know the first thing on working on the line.. Try this on for size … my dad still has 67 firebird and 69 z28 bought in those years in great condition with no restoration… They have been around for over forty years… I have driven the same v6 camaro with over 200 thousand miles with not a problem… JUST because one problem occured with yours doesnt mean it happens with EVERY american car… Problems also happen in japanese cars.. have you considered that you may not know how to take care of a car? Lets face the facts people..
When someone starts a rumor… it is spread like wildfire… So when someone started the rumor that Japanese cars are better, everyone liked japanese cars… Give the big three a chance… It would be a devastating mistake to watch these companies go under… I couldnt imagine… This is the last major industry we have… I dont think people realize this…. The only reason we got out of the recession of the 80s was b/c we had a great deal of manufacturing… Now we are going to watch the last of it die?? What are we thinking… I will always be forever greatful of GM… I will always drive american… Give GM a chance people…. We will regret if we dont
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