AND 
Obama May Help GM, and CEO Says Bankruptcy Still Not an Option
The recent GM financial news is truly sobering. This site was begun to follow the Volt to development and demonstrate to GM the public demand for such a vehicle. When the site began in January 2007, I didn’t realize it would evolve into this intense financial discussion. GM agreed to build the Volt, but now with GM teetering on the brink of collapse, perhaps there was never more a time that it appeared so much in jeopardy. At the end of September GMs cash reserves stood at $16.2 billion, and yet October was their worst month for sales in 25 years. They need $11 to $14 billion to operate.
Yesterday president-elect Obama gave a press conference on the terrible state of the national financial system. He specifically included comments about the embattled auto industry. His words:
The auto industry is the backbone of American manufacturing and a critical part of our attempt to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. I would like to see the Administration do everything they can to accelerate the retooling assistance that Congress has already enacted. In addition, I have made it a high priority for my transition team to work on additional policy options to help the auto industry adjust, weather the financial crisis, and succeed in producing fuel-efficient cars here in the United States. I have asked my team to explore what we can do under current law and whether additional legislation will be needed for this purpose.
With GM just about out of cash, government help cant come soon enough. It isn’t until January 20 that Obama takes office, and the Bush administration has already declined to give direct aid to the automakers.
Still GM declares bankruptcy is not an option. GM CEO Rick Wagoner said:
“We’re convinced that the consequences of bankruptcy would be dire and extend far beyond GM. We are going to take every action we possibly can to avoid it, and we are going to use every source of funding.”
He also noted in a Fox Business New interview (below) that studies revealed 80% of people said they’d never consider buying cars from an automaker in bankruptcy, and that if GM failed it would really be a liquidation.
So if GM liquidates, what will happen to the Volt? Toyota and Honda have already gone on record stating they don’t agree with the E-REV or readiness of lithium-ion.
It looks like it comes down to this, bail or fail.
94 Responses to “Obama May Help GM, and CEO Says Bankruptcy Still Not an Option”
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
GM is just too important a company for the government to let it go bankrupt. In times like these, free-market principles simply have to take a backseat to the pragmatic necessity of saving hundreds of thousands or millions of jobs. After all, it was free-market abuse beyond GM’s control (and abetted by government failures) that produced this financial climate that they may not be able to survive.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I really hope GM hangs on, but they need so much money. I just don’t know if the government can put up that kind of coin, after all the money they have already committed to the financial markets. I have been saving up for the Volt for a little over a year now, and I hope it isn’t all for not.
Obama claimed “Yes We Can”, I think we are about to see if that is a true statement. Losing GM and/or Ford at the beginning of your Presidency is not a good way to start off.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I say, GM should get the financial aid it needs, BUT..with this condition
Build green vehicles, preferably the Volt and other cars that can run electrically without oil.
GM screwed up the electric vehicle before..now they want help. The Obama Administration can/should use this as a condition that they get the money. Electric cars, or no help and they go bankrupt.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Congratulations to President Elect Obama.
GM, if WE bail you out also, you must produce worthy vehicles and stop being owned by big oil. We will own you and we want shares of stock in return for the bail out WE are paying for.
Rick must go! He is completely incompetent. How he is still employed is a mystery.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I don’t care is GM files bankruptcy, I will still buy the Volt when it is available. I’m sure many others will too if GM has this available years before others than it can emerge from bankruptcy in much better shape.
Go VOLT!
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
While I was NOT in favor of bailing out Wall st…I am in favor of bailing out the domestic auto firms. I believe we need to revoke NAFTA/GATT and offer HUGE tax breaks for domestic auto companies and perhaps even punish foreign autos. Go out on any expressway and you’ll be amazed at the volume of Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc vehicles out there….And well intentioned patriotic Americans buy these cars because they are convinced that since they are “Made in America” (actually assembled in America from mostly foreign parts)….that it’s just fine to buy a foreign brand. Well it’s NOT the same!!! Wake up America….soon nobody will have a job and we’ll become worthless service agents for another foreign company.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Why buy an expensive US made gas guzzler, when the US starts making autos that we can afford we will start buying them.
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November 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
#1-6:
All good comments bloggers. I can only agree.
President Elect Obama:
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Noel Park,
do you think we (US citizens) are to blame for their crises and not the auto makers?
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
#9. Casey, I have to answer that.
GM put themselves here, but the current economy is not helping whatsoever.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
From what I have seen here today it looks like GM needs to do some house cleaning. And I feel it needs to happen in two places. The first being the top Union level. The second the top executive level. The Union leaders who have fought for ridiculous pay rates and benefits need to step aside. And the members of the executive level that can’t break away from old thinking must pass the torch.
This is obviously a game of who gets hurt first. The American people (again) or the internal members of the problem team. GM already has a government funded $7500 per vehicle credit on the Volt. If GM sells 1600 Volt then the credits alone will pay the salary of one top exec.
On the question of, “Give us $25 billion more”. I feel there is about a 3% chance of this happening. And if it does happen, without house cleaning, then the new administration will have buckled under it’s first appeal for a handout. This thinking must change.
This is way out of balance and change is needed. Bankruptcy may be a good starting point.
Change you can believe in?
=D~
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I have bought US autos all my life and I’m 72, this year for the first time in my life I bought a 2009 Toy, corolla, figuring it would be the best thing for a trade in when the Volt finally gets here, I didn’t think a Ford or a GM model would be much of a trade in at that time, And I have a 2004 1ton dodge pu so if GM an Chrysler merge I’ll be in good shape
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
We don’t need three auto makers in the US. One might be enough. However, the timing is such that allowing the auto makers to go under now is not a viable option, both because of the direct and indirect job losses and because of the effect on consumer spending. Obama and his team know this, which is why he’s made keeping the automakers afloat a priority.
Hopefully Bush will figure it out and will accept this. Otherwise we’ll have to wait until the end of January which will be dicey.
I agree that management needs to take a BIG haircut on the pay front. Personally I’m outraged that the bankers who have accepted billions in US funds are using it for bonus pools to reward themselves for their “great” performance. I think I’m now in favor of a 100% income tax on pay in excess of over a million dollars for executives at firms which have taken taxpayers money for bailouts. Beggars should not be so choosy.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
LOL – bail or fail.
It appears that no matter what assistance GM receives, it will be deemed a bailout, even if it’s just the government co-signing on some loans.
Yes, the auto industry is going to need government’s cooperation, and not just financially. Obama needs to state that he will NOT allow California and other states to impose additional carbon mandates against the automakers until this financial crisis is over.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Just like US manufactured steel, so goes the old US auto industry. I am sure we will bail them out this time and may throw up some trade barriers to new entrants such as Cherry motors and Tata coming to the US market. In the end however, after a couple hundred billion more dollars are wasted delaying the inevitable, GM will buckle and the best parts (hopefully the volt platform) will be assimmulated by a car company that is successful and can build cars that we want for a low price.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
I think that both the union and management need to sit down with the house and BOTH need to bleed as do the retirees. Management needs to have their pay cut in a major way and the union must accept more of a wage and bennifit package like non union auto workers get in the USA. Stock ownership by the government is a must. We simply can not afford the millions of unemployed that a failure of GM would cost. We also need to keep automobile manufacturing in the USA.
I would also reccomend that the tax credits be only applied to autos that are at least 75% made in this country.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I just hope President Obama is half as good as people think he is. I didn’t vote for the guy. I think deeds speak louder than eloquent words. But now he’s got the job and I hope his deeds are as brilliant as his campaign strategies. We will see.
Hang in there, General. We need you! Go VOLT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
#9 Casey:
I think that there is plenty of blame to go around.
If you look at my comment re Chalmers Johnson’s “The Sorrows Of Empire” on the last thread, I believe that a lot of this is the fallout of the imperial fantasies of at least two generations of US politicians, Republican and Democrat alike.
If we as citizens are too blind to see that, then yes, shame on us.
If we took the billions and billions of dollars we have squandered on military bases in Japan, Korea, Diego Garcia, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and dozens of other countries and spent it instead on maintaining our job and manufacturing base in this country, we would be way ahead of the game today. And a lot of people would hate us a lot less in the bargain.
Corporate executives have looked at this system and made the decisions to export jobs and import products. Have our auto industry “leaders” taken the easy way out, concentrating on high margin trucks and SUVs? Absolutely. Have they totally ignored their responsibility to forsee what would inevitably happen as “the end of oil” approached? Absolutely. Would I agree with other bloggers that Wagoner, Lutz, et al should go as a condition of any more investment of taxpayers’ money in GM? Absolutely.
Even so, our government has essentially abandoned our manufacturing economy to its fate, in support of its totally unsustainable imperial fantasies. Maybe it’s time to pay back a little bit now. Invest 5 months worth of the insane Iraq war to save GM, Ford and Chrysler? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Or get out of Japan proper, Okinawa and Korea and use that money for same? In a heartbeat.
If we don’t wake up and make it happen, the bottom line responsibility is on us, the citizens who snoozed and lost.
I don’t claim to be an expert, and i certainly don’t expect bloggers to accept me as such. The best advice I can give is to read Chalmers Johnson’s brilliant so-called “Blowback Trilogy” – “Blowback”, “The Sorrows Of Empire”, and “Nemesis”. Equally important are Kevin Phillips’ “American Theocracy” and “Bad Money”. Professor Jared Diamond’s “Collapse” is very germane to these issues as well.
I remember seeing bumper stickers reading, “Buy American, The Job You Save May Be Your Own”. The Japanese believe this. Soon enough we will figure out that we should have too.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
To claim nobody would buy GM cars if it was restructuring under bankruptcy protection is like saying nobody will fly an airline while it restructures. Utterly bogus. GM needs a whole new management team and bankruptcy will get it done.
Lets have Nissan buy Chrysler, Honda buy Ford and Toyota buy GM. So of the best Chevys were simply rebadged Toyotas.
What do you think the management of Toyota would do with the bulk of GM products? Yes, end production.
Or how about this: If all imports of foreign oil were blocked today, how long would it take to get the Volts spewing off the assembly line? Less than one year.
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November 8th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
My former workplace closed five years ago. My pay dropped from $60,000 to $35,000 per year. My insurance benefits were not only thinned but raised in price.
I survive as an individual. I stay fit and work 50 hour weeks. I maintain a good appearance and do my best to treat others as I wish to be treated.
I try to do what it takes to make America look the way I want America to look. Clean, decent, honest, and fair to everyone. I try my best to be a good example to the young people.
Why should the GM employees be given special assistance? I don’t follow this thinking. The future is what is ahead of all of us and, like it or not, we’re going there.
Special thanks to Lyle and his efforts to keep the Volt on the front page. I feel Lyle is a clean, decent, honest, and fair guy. And the Volt program will continue regardless of the builder. If Big Oil buys everyone out and again pushes the 8000 lb SUV agenda, then the People (of the world) will turn to one of a dozen alternate EV/EREV builders.
=D~
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
It would be nice if the waiting list could be used to help them somehow. Perhaps cashing in on some up-front deposits. Unfortunately, even if everybody on the waiting list ponied up full price today, it would only amount to about $1.7B, which is just a drop in the bucket. I know I’d be willing to help GM out if it meant earlier access to a Volt.
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
GM cannot cut costs and shrink their way down to be more nimble because their retiree obligations will not shrink. GM is the #1 car company by sales and even so they are running at an operating deficit.
GM is competing with manufacturers that do not include retiree’s pensions and healthcare, and current employee’s health benefits in the price of a new car. Those other nations have their government pick up that tab.
I’m NOT saying leave retirees and current employees high and dry. We’ve had a social contract for over 50 years that corporations would take care of their employees. However this makes an uneven playing field with more socialized nations. America needs to catch up and provide these benefits without saddling corporations with the bill.
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
To all who consider GM “too important to fail” – Why?
There are certainly enough other automakers in North America with sufficient capacity to manufacture vehicles for the domestic market. Total employment in the auto industry, INCLUDING EUROPEAN AND ASIAN MANUFACTURERS, is relatively unchanged since the mid-1990s. Granted, it’s left the Rust Belt and moved to the South, but overall employment is about the same.
So, if GM fails, so what? If it doesn’t successfully reorganize (highly probable, with the current brain-dead CEO in charge), other buyers will pick up the pieces that are worth keeping in production. In GM’s case, this is admittedly very few.
As for the Volt, the technology appears solid, and may be able to be commercialized. It looks like an ideal opportunity for a Sovereign Wealth Fund to invest in U.S. assets and recycle some of the trillions we’ve squandered abroad buying petrol to fuel GM’s monstrosities. If the Chinese were to buy the technology, maybe we’d get a $20,000 car for $20,000, instead of $40,000…
GM’s failure isn’t a problem or a disaster. It’s a HUGE opportunity!
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
(Continuing above post)
The thing I’m proposing is, the US government takes over GM’s social obligations.
The only way GM can survive is if this happens. President Obama can make it happen — or 2008’s lame duck Congress before then.
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Dave #20
Amen Brother.
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Still GM declares bankruptcy is not an option. GM CEO Rick Wagoner said:
“We’re convinced that the consequences of bankruptcy would be dire and extend far beyond GM. We are going to take every action we possibly can to avoid it, and we are going to use every source of funding.”
———————————————-
** attention ** Reality Train Coming Through ** attention **
You don’t get to declare anything…you don’t control your company or its future anymore. You have no actions left to take…and you have not one source of funding left.
The rest of the world finally woke up yesturday, and guess what, they know your game now…basically whatever you say, the opposite is probably true.
/enjoy your last few checks
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
#23
Foreign auto makers are here to avoid shipping cost not to put us to work. If we loose our auto industry they will go home or to other countries with even lower labor cost. And we will need them to go where the labor is less as we will be making less. [service industry is not going to pay well in the future any more than it is now] Manufacturing creates wealth, Doing each others cooking and washing never has and never will.
WE NEED MANUFACTURING.
Can any of you who want or don`t care if GM goes down the tube think of a single country with a high standard of living that lacks a strong manufacturing base
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November 8th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
I stated this on the last thread and will echo it here…
So, what should be done now?
I believe the Federal Government must not allow the US auto industry to deteriorate any further.
Like others have said, THERE MUST BE STRONG CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO ANY SUPPORT PROVIDED. I would like to see a Federal Government led “Big 3 Technical Conference” where they are REQUIRED to sign on to a kind of TECHNICAL REBOOT TIMELINE.
Bitter medicine is now needed. Aggressive schedules must be set.
All new passenger car vehicle designs in the pipelines must transition to E-REV within 48 months. Light Trucks might be permitted another 24 months.
In the meantime, the government should Loan / Bailout / Assist as needed to keep the auto industry employment levels at a negotiated level.
“texas” nailed it when he said “We need to start a hard transition now.”
Any manufacturer that doesn’t “get on board” gets nothing.
5 – 10 years from now when large numbers of vehicles are running with electric drivetrains, we can then work through different technology for range extenders.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Unfortunately the rippling effects of a GM 7 or 11 would be catastrophic. I’m really disappointed in just how the financial system bailout went. Ridiculous, they can use that money any way they want, even executive bonuses if they please, and after their irresponsible performance thus far who’s to say they wouldn’t?
However, if GM is to receive a loan, I believe the guarantor should have some say in how that money is spent. While I honestly trust Wagoner more than the financial CEOs it’s still a prudent move if and when it does happen.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
#26 statik – exactly.
—-
“Still GM declares bankruptcy is not an option”
—-
After trying to deceive their employees, shareholders, and creditors for so long, you’d think that once the facts are on the table, they’d at least have the decency to acknowledge them.
I’m angry that our government agrees with GM. They will pump our money into this wreck, paying salaries twice my own, for years until the public finally forces them to stop.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Give GM all the money they need
If the US does not we will be in terrible trouble.
“A Japanese auto executive once said American won the war. We will win the war after the war”
The Japanese want to cripple the us economy and become the shining star.
They pay off consumer distorts and cover up reliability issues at dealers.
People here keep saying GM does not produce fuel efficient cars that is not true at all.
In fact Chevy has more full efficient models than toyota and GM trucks and SUV get better millage too and the new Cadillac cts has more HP and gets better millage than any luxury car.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
bill cosworth, you go ahead and give GM all your money. I can think of a few more worthy charities than GM. Some even provide tax receipts. For just $30/hour plus benefits, you can sustain a GM worker making dust collectors. How about $30 a month to save a life?
Yes, GM has some great products. That isn’t the point. GM doesn’t make money. They couldn’t in good times. Without shedding their burdens through bankruptcy, they never will.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Noel @18
I’ll meet Professor Jared Diamond on Monday November 17th. His systemic analysis is outstanding. He will speak about how complex societies are coping with change. Perhaps GM is not such a good example. I’ll ask him.
Since 1975, I ‘m wondering how and when car companies will react to the oil problem.
The first real good news since then has been the Volt program.
I’m dubious now.
I share all the feelings of our community;
BE WELL whatever happens.
JC
and forever NPNS !!
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
It is very simple.
Give a $2000 tax credit for buying a GM,Ford or Chrysler Vehicle that has at least 50% North American Content(USA/CANADA) for 1 year.
This is roughly equal to the extra pension and health care costs per car.Now we have a level playing field.
This will be real stimulus directed at the US manufacturing sector instead of sending out $600 checks to be spent on big screen TV’s made in China.
Get MMAD!
Try to buy a product Made by an AMERICAN corporation.
Try to buy a product Made in AMERICA.
Try to buy a product Assembled in AMERICA
Try to buy a product Designed in AMERICA
Now go out and buy a band new Chevy Malibu-NOT a Toy or H.
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November 8th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
3 words to save the big 3
1. Hybrid
2. Expandable
3. Upgradeable
It’s a new era, you need a new plan.
80% of the fleet should be described with these 3 words by 2020. The other 20% –(1. All electric, 2. Expandable, 3. Upgradeable)
The electrification and computerization of automobiles is the way of the future. Embrace the future. Be the future.
(That was my best Tony Robbins)
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November 8th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
P.S. to #35
Lutz,
Get Steve Jobs on the blower. His team could come up with some killer ideas for you on items 2 and 3.
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November 8th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Thanks to everyone contributing to this site….the awareness of the Volt and alternatives to the way we have done things for the past century is the opportunity to move forward. If it had not been for the collapse of the banks and the speculator driven $150 dollar a barrel
oil we would not have a new Congress and President…both hopefully committed to CHANGE! There is a silver lining!
If GM doesn’t build the Volt someone else will. I hope it is GM of course.
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November 8th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
What will $700,000,000,000 buy?
1000 new 400 bed state-of-the-art hospitals.
17 million Volt.
28 billion 50lb bags of rice.
$2400 for every person in the U.S.A.
=D~
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
#34 – You might be surprised to learn that many of Toyota’s and Honda’s vehicles were designed in the U.S. – the Camry, Avalon and Lexus 350 – and have a higher domestic (US/Canada) content than many of GM/Ford/CrapCo’s vehicles.
The auto industry is global but GM is trying to hide behind the US flag, as it did in the 1970s when it argued (unsuccessfully, thankfully) in favor of retaining price controls on domestic oil production. This time, their whining only shows that the emperor again has no clothes.
Far better the US/Canada “encourage” a merger of GM/Ford that will enable the best parts of each to survive in a recapitalized firm with a clean slate. Chapter 11 will enable each to get out from under contracts that should never have been signed, debt obligations that clearly can’t/won’t be met, and ensure that a profitable enterprise emerges.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
What will $700,000,000,000 buy?
1000 new 400 bed state-of-the-art hospitals.
17 million Volt.
28 billion 50lb bags of rice.
$2400 for every person in the U.S.A.
_____________________________________
Trampling the constitution while kicking every U.S. tax payer in the stones ? — priceless.
For every thing else there’s mastercard.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7184420933710108270
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
#3 Mark says
“I say, GM should get the financial aid it needs, BUT..with this condition
Build green vehicles, preferably the Volt and other cars that can run electrically without oil.”
=====================================
But the condition is impossible to meet, so to require that condition is to decide not to give federal financial support. Conversely, to give financial aid now means you have to give up on that condition. You cannot have both.
GM in the here and now is a company that mainly builds trucks and SUVS. These are the products built by the UAW workers who have loyally supported president Obama. Giving GM financial aid means supporting building trucks and SUVS, and a smattering of cars of all sizes.
One might wish otherwise, but to support GM now means to support the GM that exists now, not some imaginary company that might exist by 2020 or whenever.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Lyle said
The recent GM financial news is truly sobering. This site was begun to follow the Volt to development and demonstrate to GM the public demand for such a vehicle. When the site began in January 2007, I didn’t realize it would evolve into this intense financial discussion. GM agreed to build the Volt, but now with GM teetering on the brink of collapse, perhaps there was never more a time that it appeared so much in jeopardy…
=================================
I started reading this site not too long after Lyle started it. My thought at that time was that the main threat to the Volt was that GM would back out on us, and that the secondary threat was some technical issue having to do with the batteries. I guess either still is possible, but my goodness how times have changed.
My original thoughts now seem a bit quaint, to say the least.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Just thought I’d pop on for a minute, today (I think I burned myself out yesterday on the last thread
But this supports the theory I was saying. That chapter 11 now basically translates into chapter 7 and liquidation. My reasoning is thus:
they will vote to proceed directly to chapter 7 (do not pass GO do not collect $200 
liquidate and get the cash.
1) consumers have no money
2) they can’t get credit
3) so they aren’t buying any cars at all (plus, cars were oversold during the last cheap credit boom, so they don’t actually NEED any cars for several years)
4) that’s not going to change anytime soon because the banks still aren’t lending
5) Those same banks seem to still be in “desperate for capital” mode, even with the big bailout money.
6) When GM goes chapter 11, their debts are great enough that basically the creditors will own the entire company.
Okay, that’s the setup, here’s the guess:
7) those creditors won’t want to bleed cash to an (even if smaller) GM not selling any cars.
I think this is similar to what is happening with Cerberus and Chrysler. They were all happy to pick it (cheep) up and try to fix it up for the long term even though it was hemorrhaging money… Until the financial meltdown. Now there’s so much unwinding they are desperate for cash and are willing to unload it for anything just to get cash.
Would GM’s creditors act any differently? At least if the government bails GM out (and I am talking about loans, here, not gifts) at least then they’ll be a big creditor and can have a say in what happens in the probably eventual chapter 11. And it’s the government, they can certainly put themselves first in line. What are the other creditors going to do about it? The feds have tanks and missiles!
Additionally, normally I’d be happy to let a company fail, especially one that has made so many mistakes for so long. But this is an exceptional situation. Normally chapter 11 would be a good thing and that would be the proper course. It’s just not going to work this time. The banking mess is going to sink us all if we let them continue to hoard cash until there’s no solvent companies left.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I will boycott any auto maker who steal my money just to survive, no way for them to do so. What GM/Ford should do is to use chapter 11 to get rid of UAW and inflexible employee base. Because the economy is so bad now, people won’t buy cars anyway, so if they go through chapter 11, it won’t hurt them as much as a chapter 11 filing during good time, and when they emerge from chapter 11, they will be lean and then economy comes back, people will start buying again.
Using public money to bail them out will NEVER solve their problem of Detroit, that is: short-sighted business practice, militant UAW and bureaucracy. They may survive for 1-2 more years, then they will struggle again, just ask yourself how many times Detroit is in trouble in the past 40 years? Almost every 6-10 years. Also do you know this: 1955 in the last time when Toyota has an annual loss. Foreign competition, Japanese currency manipulation is the NOT the main reason (somehow played a minor role) Detroit has gotten into trouble so many times.
Also remember this: Chevy Volt will be a niche product at best if they can solve the battery life problem, which has been doubted internally by their scientists. Toyota is conservative in bringing PHEV and history will once again show that Toyota is right. Too bad for AmericA!
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
I agree with Bernie Torbik. GM has seen the VW Beetle and many foreign cars come into the US and be successful. We will not shut off oil dependency over night. With the issues GM is having with the battery technology why haven’t they put a high mpg vehicle on the road to keep sales up. As they run out of money they continue to put guzzlers on the road and say that 21mpg is good mileage such as the Escalade Hybrid. I looked at the Toyota Prius today with 48mpg city and 45mpg highway. Can’t we compete with that? If GM can’t manage their money why would they all of a sudden manage our bailout money. Let them tell the taxpayers what they plan to do to improve their company. Maybe cleaning out upper managment would be a good start.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
#39
Exactly you proved my point.
USA designed and made cars are the best.
We the people(American citizens) need to help out until the big three drop kick the pensions in 2010 and lower the starting wages from 28 to 18 to compete with the transplants.
The BIG three have plenty of world class cars now such as the Malibu,Edge,etc so be a good American for once and pitch in until 2010!-Then Maybe I will let you go out and buy your Toy car.
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November 8th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
# 43 Dave P
“7) those creditors won’t want to bleed cash to an (even if smaller) GM not selling any cars.”
_________________________________________
I follow you on all 7 points, but get lost on your conclusion.
The tax payers have more blood so they can bleed long enough for GM to recover?
And you really think if GM continues to tank after a bailout the government will get their money and the original creditors will get nothing? No. We’ll have to loan even more money because at that point failure is no longer an option for GM or the government. This situation could lead to a death spiral. Like in Vegas where you keep doubling down because you bet half your life’s savings and you can’t leave the table without getting it back.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Just a little off topic, but certainly related and fun to think about. An idea from Bob Cringely on how to solve the financial crisis without spending any money:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2008/pulpit_20081008_005497.html
“Right now all the bankers are afraid to lend money because they are afraid of failure. As the new banking czar Jack [Welch, retired CEO of GE] would much rather have them be afraid of HIM. If the bottom 10 percent of bankers were fired every year and the bottom 10 percent of banks had their branches and deposits redistributed, wouldn’t they be more afraid of THAT than of making bad loans? Their motivation would still be to make GOOD loans, but the penalty for making NO loans would be there, too.
Our problem then is that we’re throwing money at something we should be handling using a different regulatory tool — licensing.”
I don’t know if it would work, but it would certainly be entertaining!
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Does’nt it suck that the worlds biggest car maker, GM, can’t make a buck?
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
IMO we haven’t even begun to see the last of the oil shocks. Can you imagine how well a propped up SUV/Pickup selling Gm will do if oil continues to spike over the next several years? It’ll be a continual drain on the tax payer/dollar in a worsening situation. Unless of course you think GM, big 3 et al. will retool like it was 1941. And even then, we’re still back to the who can afford to buy a car scenario. Waaayyyy too much risk for my tax dollar.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Dave K #20,
Well said. I too feel the same way.
It is the same with religion. A person does not need to be religious to be a good person.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
hi carcus #40,
“What will $700,000,000,000 buy?
1000 new 400 bed state-of-the-art hospitals.”
__________________________
Wouldn’t this create a few jobs? Construction, steel, electrical, plumbing…ect? Doctors, nurses, techs, facilities support… ect? Aren’t the baby boomers going to need hospital beds?
Oh that’s right, only car manufactures create jobs. Sorry, I’ll sit back down and shut up.
=D~
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
#47 carcus:
Yes. But it’s not about GM specifically, it’s about the economy in its entirety. The banks are showing their willingness to sit idly by hoarding cash, economy be damned. The only entities with deep enough pockets to actually fix the STILL broken economic system are the governments. They are going to have to cover companies like GM for awhile until chapter 11 can work. Otherwise, we really will be facing the next depression.
Look at it this way. If you think there’s something worth saving at GM, the jAmerican obs, the Volt, the cobalt, the trucks, whatever that could be salvaged in chapter 11, then we will have to use our deep taxpayer pockets to keep it afloat or it’s all gone. Nobody will pick it up in this environment (look at Chrysler, they’re almost certainly going to wind up Chapter 7 soon). If it all goes down (and we’re talking about an entire INDUSTRY liquidation, not just a company) what INDUSTRY will be next?
And the cost of spending our way out of the resulting depression will be much, much higher than the cost of a few bailout loans to a few big companies.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
#48 Dave P.
“Neutron Jack” — employees vaporize but the buildings stay intact.
I don’t know if Obama (or anyone else) could keep that Pit Bull from snapping the chain.
Ref. Lex Luthor: A brilliant businessman on a quest for world domination and the self-proclaimed greatest criminal mind of our time!
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
#53 DaveP says “The banks are showing their willingness to sit idly by hoarding cash, economy be damned. ”
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It’s a considerable stretching to say that. The other day the head of the Bank of America was on the radio here, and he said that BofA was making every good loan it could find, not holding back on any.
The difference is what he means by “good loan”. Standards to be eligible have definitely gone up. But isn’t that a good thing?
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
hi RB #55,
BofA was making every good loan it could find… isn’t that a good thing?
__________________________
Isn’t it our money they are loaning out?
EREV Cruze in blue, I like it A LOT.
http://garfwod.250free.com/Photos/Cruze_blue_EREV.jpg
BBL
=D~
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
#43 DaveP on why GM will go to C 7 and not C 11
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All of your points are good ones, but still I am not convinced. It seems to me that creditors are better protected by C11, where there still is an operating business bringing in money, as compared to C7, where one is just selling pieces.
One aspect is that what you write is an exaggeration. I understand that one can’t write every detail in a blog post, but it is significant that there still are a lot of cars and trucks being sold, more than half the number in a normal year, even though conditions are very poor. Half of millions still is millions, and there are ongoing contracts, and there are ongoing service purchases — GM has not just closed up and stopped work. So, the other side is that billions of dollars still are coming in as well as (even more) going out.
I don’t minimize the difficulties, but it still seems to me that creditors do better by keeping the core of the company operating.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Why are some saying you can’t get a car loan, I don’t know of anyone that can’t get a car loan including myself 1.9% just got one and a great deal, go to the car dealer and they will bend over backward to get you a loan and a great deal. all you need is good credit.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
#34 has a real good idea…
Thank you Toyota/Honda/Nisaan owners………….now go buy two GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles to pay back your debt to society. Then go to church on Sunday to repent….
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
RB said
“BofA was making every good loan it could find… isn’t that a good thing?
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#56 Dave said —Isn’t it our money they are loaning out?”
==============================================
Remember that BofA did not ask for federal money. Paulson told them they had to take it, and had to accept the condtions that came along with it. As a highly regulated company, they complied.
The short answer is “maybe”. Most BofA money is not federal.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
#53 Dave P.
I just don’t think that GM will turn to dust if it doesn’t get a government loan.
I’m more concerned about government intervention in the free market, a weakened dollar, and an alarming trend toward socialism. Once you start going down this road there’s just no where to stop. How in the world does a free market oriented government decide who gets to survive and who doesn’t?
I’m also extremely doubtful that the current management would move swiftly or make the right moves if given the loans. They haven’t up to this point.
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November 8th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
#61 carcus asks “How in the world does a free market oriented government decide who gets to survive and who doesn’t?”
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We know the answer, whether in the USA or China — politics. Those who are well connected get the support. Therefore a lot of time and effort has to go into being well connected. Companies of equal or greater economic value that are not well connected get smaller portions, or just get taxed to support the “winners”.
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November 8th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
This is making my head hurt. Time for a barley pop and a musical break.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iR2Wi3u5o
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November 8th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I will not be surprised to see GM get bailed out of this. But I would be very surprised to see them bailed out like the banks have been. Obama will cerntainly put some strong strings to this money tied to higher mileage and alternative fuels. If that turns out to be what it is, then I am for it. Otherwise, might as well let them die now.
Hawk
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November 8th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Well, they were screwed partially by Wall Street and partially by themselves. Banking on the seemingly endless demand for gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks was entirely their fault but clearly the currently financial crisis was not. I hesitate but have to say they deserve a bailout with severe stipultations to prevent widespead unemployment and GDP collapse.
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November 8th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Thank you Toyota/Honda/Nisaan owners…………
________________________________
You’re welcome. It’s nice to get the recognition. Some of us have been working really hard for years to convince GM & Ford to produce hybrids like the ones we’ve been driving.
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November 8th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
No company is too big or too important to fail. No company is irreplaceable. Someone will always step in to fill a market demand.
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November 8th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
The idea that GM is crucial for US manufacturing is pure BS – most of the parts from GM cars are made elsewhere, thanks to the UAW, which is the real reason Obama is trying to save GM – it’s to save those phoney baloney union jobs that have contributed millions to help elect a naiive and brainless politician. As to the ned for American automakers to save gas, just which planet has Obama been living on recently? ALL of the high volume small cars are being produced by Asian automakers , for the simpel reason that any company with UAW labor rates, even if only for final assembly, can’t possibly comptete on low priced cars. So now Obama plans to
feed billions into the Amecian automakers (which is strictly forbidden by trade agreements – these are subsidies, pure and simple.Anyone want to believe that this is any kind of solution? The problem isn’t that the American automakers don’t know how to build small cars.
The y simply can’t build smallcars and be competite as long as they have the UAW albatross around their necks. Obama simply is either dumb (as usual) or lying. Take your pick. Nor does the lack of enthusiasm by either Honda or Toyota mean anything with respect to building serial hybrids – BYD is already on track to match the GM launch date, and has a car that is cheaper and has a longer range.
GM’s Volt would and wil have its hands full with competiting companies, with or without Honda/Toyota. And the last I heard Toyota is aiming for a plug-in. If the plug-in depends upon GM,
then the concept obviously is faulty. There are two dozen automakers out there and it would be impossible for a good idea to
not be picked up by one of them.
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November 8th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
I suppose some would have been in favor of bailing out the companies that made slide rules too, (I still have a very nice Pickett)
Maybe shedding some baggage would speed the VOLT project along. Most of GM’s problems are internal, old school vs new school, the flawed logic useing historical data to project future advancements and break through technology when all they have to do is follow Toyota and improve on it till they catch up and clean house with their internal politics.
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November 9th, 2008 at 12:49 am
#62 RB,
“We know the answer, whether in the USA or China — politics. Those who are well connected get the support. Therefore a lot of time and effort has to go into being well connected. Companies of equal or greater economic value that are not well connected get smaller portions, or just get taxed to support the “winners”.”
_____________________________________________________
From an Autoblog Green article where AFS Trinity claims they were blocked out of the LA autoshow:
“The action that the LA Auto Show took to muzzle AFS Trinity has implications for such a bailout,” Furia said. “The idea that the Detroit automakers, through their LA Auto Show agents, would seek to suppress interest in a super-efficient vehicle technology developed by a small company such as AFS Trinity truly challenges the imagination, particularly given the global energy security landscape through which America must navigate in the next several decades,” Furia said.
Whether the behavior of the Greater Los Angeles New Car Dealers, and, by implication and association, the carmakers they serve, is based on NIH (”not-invented-here”) considerations, or something else, it raises questions about whether the current leadership of the American auto industry possesses the perspective, character, capability and vision to escape the death march in which they currently appear to be locked, no matter how large a bailout the next Congress and President-Elect Obama are willing to support.
FS Trinity pulls “150 mpge” hybrids from LA Auto Show
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/11/07/afs-trinity-pulls-150-mpge-hybrids-from-la-auto-show/
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November 9th, 2008 at 12:49 am
When is GM’s board going to outst CEO Rick Wagoner… he was at the helm that helped drive GM into this situation (focus on high profit margin gas guzzlers), why should he be trusted to get GM out of it?
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November 9th, 2008 at 1:00 am
#68 Kent Beuchert
If only you included the phrase “Fiat Money” you woulda gotten the maximum Maverick Points for that.
Seriously, you Ron Paulista libertarian kooks REALLY THINK that the few American workers that are unionized are more expensive than Socialized Commies in Old Yurp?
Pick up a magazine or two, Mr “Sarah Palin without Lipstick”. I recommend _The Economist_. It’ll give you data on relative productivity on labor costs.
Until then, keep beating that horse. It might just undead itself one day.
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November 9th, 2008 at 1:28 am
That was bombastic.
=D~
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November 9th, 2008 at 1:33 am
Put your money where your mouth is, buy GM stock if you really want to see the Volt built. At $5 a share it’s dirt cheap anyway, and if they come out of this, you’ll probably quadruple your money in 2-3 years.
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November 9th, 2008 at 4:29 am
It is scary that bankruptcy is even a word that is being spoken. Hopefully the Volt, upon which GM’s hopes currently seem to be centered, will be able to revive their sinking fortunes.
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November 9th, 2008 at 7:54 am
So the much vaunted unfettered free market system now needs an influx of public funding? Do the people of the U.S. of A not understand that the only thing that these bailout packages are doing is to simply continue to pay the CEO’s their enormous salaries? If you want a genuine free market system, let the companies fail!!
So what will it be then? Bankruptcy, or a more regulated FAIR market economy? You don’t get to have both…..
I do hope GM can weather the storm, but I object to public funds being used to prop up a system that has consistently lobbied for further deregulation.
Ter
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November 9th, 2008 at 9:35 am
People
If you are one of those who don’t believe in your own skills and the skills of your country all we are saying is give GM,F, and C a chance.
Yes you know who you are-Your current perceptions are not the reality.
If you are in the market for a new midsize car for example and you are only considering a Camry or an Accord-go out and test drive a Malibu and give America and peace a chance.
Stand up and fight for your Yourself, your Country and its jobs.
Thank you and goodnight.
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November 9th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
If I am not mis remembering Statik’s calculations, it will take something over 200 billion to save GM. 25 won’t cut it. Sure GM says bankrupsy is not a option. Wagner would lose his job. It is not their choice.
I believe it is a mistake to link pensions and health care to jobs. It adds too much of a burden to a company to compete in the world. These are costs that other modern countrys have decided that the government should guarentee at a basic level and the rest is up to the individual. In a way they are subsidies that these countries are giving their businesses. Because of our politics we have been the last to see this and it is one reason we have a hard time competing on the world level.
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November 9th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
It’s time to support American companies and products.
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November 9th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Ive known for a long time that Wagoner and Lutz were/are complete idiots.
GM had the opportunity to build fuel efficient cars during the Clinton administration but opted to build gas hog SUV’s to keep themselves the oil companies and the Arabs rich..
Sure they will lay off thousands of more employees and move operations to low wage countries just like Ford did in Mexico.
Greed finally came back and bit these clowns in the azz…
Prophetic!
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November 9th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Rick was correct.
Those who want GM to die hate them on a personal level, and aren’t seeing the situation clearly for what it really is.
Let GM die, and let the American auto, steel, plastic, and rubber businesses all die too. Let the American auto industry die. Let GM entire infrastructure all of a sudden vaporize. The supply chains, the reasearch and development, the manufacturing, let it all vanish. THEN, let smaller newer no-name auto companies try to fill the viod. NONE of them will get to GM’s level of volume or economy for about 40 years, so in the meantime, enjoy a 40 year depression.
OR loan GM some cash so they can bounce back within a few years.
HMMMMMMM which is a better choice?
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November 10th, 2008 at 12:09 am
I would like to point out a few things.
1) Every car, large or small, costs about the same for labor, medical benefits, and retirement.
2) I’ve read that a U.S. customer is reluctant to pay as much for a small car as for a larger car. I can believe it.
3) 1/2 of the $3 trillion the federal government spends each year already goes to entitlements: Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
Do you really think we can afford federally funded healthcare?
4) The rest of the world has built their prosperity around exporting to the USA, without importing from us.
5) The USA has pushed industries overseas since the ’70s with our anti-pollution, workplace safety, and other laws. Many of the laws were truly needed, but the effect was to make manufacturing in the USA more expensive.
6) The workers got improvements in workplace conditions that they didn’t have to negotiate. They spent their energies getting raises in wages and benefits and strict work rules.
7) The union contracts include positively Byzantine work rules. The rules are designed to protect individual jobs without regard to company profitability. In the ’80s if a white collar worker moved a PC instead of calling someone to do it the union filed a grievance. Why do I doubt that has changed?
The NiMH battery is made by Sanyo. Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., part of the Toyota group, supplies the CVT transmissions. There have been disputes over allocations to their customers.
9) For whatever reasons U.S. suppliers don’t make important components of the advanced cars that everyone is sure the U.S. companies should be making. The need to protect one’s sources of supply has *not* gone away.
10) Gasoline in DFW just hit $1.989/gallon.
I would also like to say that I don’t know how to (or even if we should) help GM.
The old woman spooning chicken soup into the dead man said: “It can’t hurt and it might help.”
I don’t think we’re in that position. If the government acts but it doesn’t help we’ll hurt even worse.
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November 10th, 2008 at 1:56 am
General Motor’s and the UAW’s fait is set no matter how much money uncle sam decides to help out.
They are just delaying the inevitable. piss poor management has finally caught up to these dinosaurs.
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November 10th, 2008 at 5:03 am
The problem of GM is long term strategy. The major strategic miscalculation was SUV development instead like the rest of the world concentrating on product finishing including mpg. And now their focus on Volt sounds like desperate yell -”help us, we will be good boys”. When scraping EV-1 GM guys were extremely ignorant. Now the same guys coming back to the “greenbacks” with humiliation and begging for $.
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November 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Assuming the 80% figure is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, that is one big reason GM, Ford or Chrysler does not want to declare bankruptcy. I can certainly understand someone not wanting to purchase from a company in bankruptcy. But, once the company is out and has been operating for several months, I would not be as hesitant.
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November 10th, 2008 at 11:49 am
#19 VAN
“To claim nobody would buy GM cars if it was restructuring under bankruptcy protection is like saying nobody will fly an airline while it restructures. Utterly bogus. GM needs a whole new management team and bankruptcy will get it done. ”
While I am not stating a position here whether to bail or fail..your comments are I feel incorrect.
Flying an airline in restructuring is different..it is NOT a long term investment (unless you are lucky enough to buy a car for only 1 round trip) a $300 round trip economy class ticket to someplace is a bit cheaper than a $30,000 car. If the airline cannot honour the airline ticket..I am out 300 bucks…maybe. If a car manufacturer goes under..what about my warranty? parts? service? trade in value?
Sorry..big diff. and if you really do ot see it..then I have some stuff to sell you…
secondly “Lets have Nissan buy Chrysler, Honda buy Ford and Toyota buy GM. So of the best Chevys were simply rebadged Toyotas.
What do you think the management of Toyota would do with the bulk of GM products? Yes, end production.”
Do you think they will honour the long term barganing commitments? the retiree benefits? I’d rather think not..While not the end of the world, there are MILLIONS of retirees that worked and planned on good faith in thoise retiree benefits. If terminated, they will cerainly survive. but make changes. LIke selling the house to improve cash flow. depend on medicare and medicade..think of the effect on the housing market and strain on governement coffers…
then there is the ripple effect..what happens when production moves or is terminated…the jobless rate..Japanese manufacturers will not accept the UAW, so all manufacturing goes to the japanese style..no union, retiree legacy costs are non existant as that ius the individual’s responsibility (not that there is anything wrong with that).
It is simply not simple.
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November 10th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
#57 RB:
That’s the multi-hundred billion dollar question, isn’t it? Will the creditors be willing to wait on GM to make money again or will they just want the cash?
If they will take a chapter 11 reorg, the economy will be fine. If they opt instead for chapter 7, we’re hosed. And I mean that, generally. GM will be a very strong indicator of our overall hosedness level
I’ve said before, I’m no expert, so please do consider my opinion worth all the money you have spent to get it
but I see a lot of trouble, still. The “currently approved” money pool for bailing out companies has become much smaller. They just spent most of it on a second bailout for AIG.
The banks may be putting on a happy face but the ted spread is still fairly high and things are still not “normal”. Remember, they had poker faces on as they wrote off billions all the way up until they asked for hundreds of billions, so I wouldn’t trust what they say publicly all that much.
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November 10th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
#33 Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
Well I can’t help thinking that the threatend collapse of GM is not unlike the collapses of some or all of the societies chronicled in “Collapse”. I can certainly see some Easter Island pshchology at work there.
I would certainly offer my best regards to Prof. Diamond. He might be amused to know that I gave 6 copies of “Collapse” to the Commissoners and staff of the Port of Los Angeles as part of my public testimony during my recent battles with them over their environmental and economic impacts on our local communities. In return, one of the Commissioners gave me her autographed copy, which she was given at an event at the Los Angeles Natural History Museum. It is one of my prized possessions. I bet he would LOL if he knew that his name was being invoked over this blog.
BE WELL my friend. Your comments are always a pleasure to read.
#37 Brent Pavel:
Amen on the silver lining. There’s a little good in everything if you just look hard enough.
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November 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
GM saying that bankruptcy is not an option now is like Germany saying surrender is not an option in 1945. The overall situation disagrees. Deutsche Bank AG says GM might not be in bankruptcy a year from now, but it will be “bankruptcy-like”.
YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE, MAKE YOUR TIME.
GM Volt
2007-2009
May you rest in peace.
BABY SHOWER!
Ford Volt
RSVP
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November 12th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I say let GM go bankrupt. Let them shatter the union noose around their neck and start clean and in a manner which would facilitate competitiveness.
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November 14th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Think big. Here’s another approach to bolster Volt sales and help GM. Instead of a tax credit, offer GM a $20,000 cash “production development rebate” for each unit sold, payable to GM at closing with only one caveat — the car must sell for a base of $38,000 ($18,000 after the credit). Sales of 500,000 units (about twice the Prius sales rate) would give GM $10B, a figure well within the amounts being talked about in various “bailout” scenarios. Everybody wins — GM gets to sell half a million high-priced cars per year, legislators get to help GM without having to re-engineer the company’s entire business plan, the U.S. fleet gets greener in a hurry, and consumers are prepared for the upcoming $5/gal. gas.
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November 14th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
There is something else everyone fails to see! The U.S. auto industry is a National Security asset! Who do you think contributed tremendously to war production in WW2? The auto industry, it’s machinery and it’s experienced assembly line workers provided the core to get our war production going!
Whatever way it is done-we need the U.S. auto industry!
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November 24th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
GM’s CEO makes 14 times what the CEO of Toyota makes yet GM continues to blow through cash like Tony Montana blew coke. Any now he wants us to give him billions more? And he doesn’t even have a business plan in place for the money. Call me a 1st year economics student but you DO NOT PARTAKE IN ANY BUSINESS VENTURE WITHOUT A BUSINESS PLAN!!! W.T.F? Wake up people. If the gov’t gives the tools the cash they will blow it, still lay off tons of people and still drive the company into the ground.
Yes it would be nice for us to have a U.S. auto industry but only if they can make money. Last time I checked we have a capitalist society. If you make money, you win, if you don’t, you lose. Game over. Come on people…
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May 21st, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Great blog
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